Post by: XxoriginxX on July 23, 2015, 10:41:37 pm
Hint #1: 7 and 3 are important numbers.
Hint #2: There will be no stabbing of pigs.
Hint #3: Terrain truly matters in this game.
EDIT: This now has a name and screenshots, and they're somewhere in this thread. Somewhere.
Post by: Girlinhat on July 23, 2015, 11:15:34 pm
Post by: Levi on July 23, 2015, 11:21:19 pm
Post by: ATHATH on July 23, 2015, 11:46:35 pm
I'm going to assume its about the venerable Augustus Minimus, famed Cybertronian philosopher from 10 million years before the Autobot/Decepticon war. It'll be a rhythm/typing tutor game where you write Cybertronian poems to the beat of the music.I am secretly hoping that you are right, just so that I can go into a giggling fit over it.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 23, 2015, 11:55:13 pm
Post by: umiman on July 24, 2015, 12:51:54 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 24, 2015, 12:57:33 am
Post by: Majestic7 on July 24, 2015, 01:01:23 am
Post by: a1s on July 24, 2015, 01:12:50 am
Post by: umiman on July 24, 2015, 01:14:34 am
Seriously though, it will be a game set in the ancient Rome. However, instead of a strategy game - which would be continuing in the steps of Rome and this is new IP - it will be a first-person adoption simulator. You play Julius Ceasar, who is bleeding from multiple stabbing wounds, who must stumble through Rome looking for the best possible candidate as your adult man-child.LOL
Post by: Shadowlord on July 24, 2015, 01:15:05 am
Post by: The13thRonin on July 24, 2015, 01:22:00 am
Post by: Nuttycompa on July 24, 2015, 01:48:07 am
Unless this happens to be Crusader Kings 3 or Victoria 3 my excitement level is zero.
Let me help you with this.
There is one CK2 inteview that the dev clearly say that they have plan to make new IP with CK mechanic before they go CK3. :)
Post by: Majestic7 on July 24, 2015, 02:24:38 am
Post by: The13thRonin on July 24, 2015, 02:26:58 am
Unless this happens to be Crusader Kings 3 or Victoria 3 my excitement level is zero.
Let me help you with this.
There is one CK2 inteview that the dev clearly say that they have plan to make new IP with CK mechanic before they go CK3. :)
OK if it has the same mechanics might not be bad then.
Post by: scrdest on July 24, 2015, 05:10:18 am
I suspect it's 'we'd like to make an ancient Rome DLC for CK2 but it's too much individual research, altered mechanics, portraits and whatnot to make it just a DLC, so it's standalone'.Unless this happens to be Crusader Kings 3 or Victoria 3 my excitement level is zero.
Let me help you with this.
There is one CK2 inteview that the dev clearly say that they have plan to make new IP with CK mechanic before they go CK3. :)
OK if it has the same mechanics might not be bad then.
Post by: Majestic7 on July 24, 2015, 05:42:31 am
Post by: Mipe on July 24, 2015, 06:03:29 am
Post by: Majestic7 on July 24, 2015, 06:40:49 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 24, 2015, 06:48:51 am
Post by: Majestic7 on July 24, 2015, 07:57:18 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 24, 2015, 08:02:54 am
Post by: Majestic7 on July 24, 2015, 08:23:21 am
Post by: Broken on July 24, 2015, 08:32:10 am
Post by: Majestic7 on July 24, 2015, 10:28:38 am
Post by: Mephansteras on July 24, 2015, 12:29:30 pm
While I don't think Paradox will ever venture into scifi, Dune in CK2-like mechanics would be amazing.
Damn, now I really want that.
Post by: darkflagrance on July 24, 2015, 02:02:00 pm
While I don't think Paradox will ever venture into scifi, Dune in CK2-like mechanics would be amazing.
Damn, now I really want that.
Empire of the Fading Suns, with more awesome diplomacy, actual family dynamics, and less crashing.
Post by: MonkeyHead on July 24, 2015, 02:05:11 pm
Post by: scrdest on July 24, 2015, 02:24:28 pm
I have honestly gotten to the "wary eye" level of suspicion towards Paradox regarding never allowing anything to do with Jews into their games during relevant historical periods until Sons of Abraham.Well... I suspect the operative word was 'pogroms'. Or worse, in case of HoI.
Post by: Chosrau on July 24, 2015, 02:24:57 pm
I have honestly gotten to the "wary eye" level of suspicion towards Paradox regarding never allowing anything to do with Jews into their games during relevant historical periods until Sons of Abraham.
I think Jews were already in Crusader Kings 1.
Post by: PanH on July 24, 2015, 06:02:34 pm
I have honestly gotten to the "wary eye" level of suspicion towards Paradox regarding never allowing anything to do with Jews into their games during relevant historical periods until Sons of Abraham.Yeah. It makes sense in the case of HoI, but regarding EU IV and CK2, the rule was just dumb (not saying they needed to implement it, but they could have).
Post by: thepodger on July 24, 2015, 06:25:58 pm
Well, we have a new hint.So something about calendars? If I remember correctly the third month was removed in the first century. Not sure what makes seven significant off the top of my head.
7 and 3 are important numbers.
Post by: Kruniac on July 24, 2015, 06:28:08 pm
Post by: a1s on July 24, 2015, 06:35:30 pm
Paradox publishes shit games if it's not HoI, Vicky, CK, or EU.
edit2: sorry Ipsil, missed your post.
Well, we have a new hint.
7 and 3 are important numbers.
Post by: Chosrau on July 25, 2015, 04:31:20 am
Well, we have a new hint.So something about calendars? If I remember correctly the third month was removed in the first century. Not sure what makes seven significant off the top of my head.
7 and 3 are important numbers.
Wasn't Rome founded in 753 BC?
Post by: Teneb on July 25, 2015, 09:58:54 am
EU: Rome 2? It's a new IP, though... maybe pretty much that except as it's own thing rather than an EU spin-off?Well, we have a new hint.So something about calendars? If I remember correctly the third month was removed in the first century. Not sure what makes seven significant off the top of my head.
7 and 3 are important numbers.
Wasn't Rome founded in 753 BC?
Post by: BluarianKnight on July 25, 2015, 11:03:48 am
Post by: neotemplar on July 25, 2015, 11:35:14 am
Post by: Teneb on July 25, 2015, 12:26:04 pm
Here's hoping for intensive roman socio-political simulator. Hopefully with better combat than most of their other stuff and perhaps navel conflict.If it is Rome, it must have a thoroughly simulated senate. Anything less would be a disappointment.
Post by: Hawk132 on July 25, 2015, 01:16:52 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on July 25, 2015, 05:09:36 pm
Post by: Teneb on July 25, 2015, 06:20:10 pm
Post by: Wiles on July 26, 2015, 11:27:40 am
The project name is likely to have absolutely nothing to do with the game. If you take a look at previous games you'll see Project Nero, which was Runemaster.
Hopefully this doesn't end up like another Runemaster or East vs. West.
Post by: Lapoleon on July 26, 2015, 12:59:04 pm
Hopefully this doesn't end up like another Runemaster or East vs. West.They have been working on this for at least 1,5 year and the fact that they are now close to announcing it means that it is in alpha/almost in alpha. So that makes a rather large difference between it and Runemaster/EvW. It's also developed by Paradox Interactive itself as a new major IP which means they have faith in it.
Post by: dennislp3 on July 27, 2015, 06:04:18 pm
Post by: Wiles on July 27, 2015, 08:16:05 pm
New hint:
There will be no stabbings of pigs.
Must be a kosher deli simulator
Post by: Glloyd on July 27, 2015, 10:33:32 pm
New hint:
There will be no stabbings of pigs.
Stabbing pigs was the sacrifice mechanic in EU Rome as the comments point out. Maybe just a different stability mechanic if they are going for Rome? EU 4's hint was regarding badboy/infamy, so...
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 27, 2015, 10:37:29 pm
Post by: h3lblad3 on July 27, 2015, 11:53:30 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on July 28, 2015, 12:27:00 am
Post by: Wiles on July 28, 2015, 09:03:33 am
Aren't they supposed to be working on Victoria 3? Might this be that?
Last time I read anything about it they said they had no plans of making Victoria 3. That was maybe a year or so ago though.
Post by: a1s on July 28, 2015, 11:17:32 am
Quote
Terrain truly matters in this game.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 28, 2015, 11:20:17 am
Post by: Teneb on July 28, 2015, 12:19:10 pm
Gravedigger simulatorIn which trying to fight (stab) the cops (pigs) who are attempting to stop you will result in a game over.
The goal is to dig up 73 graves.
Post by: Chosrau on July 28, 2015, 03:00:29 pm
Post by: Malus on July 30, 2015, 05:39:20 am
Quote
Elections and Technological Development are important parts of the game.
Could still be a Rome/Antiquity game, and I could see it being a Space game as well.
Post by: Majestic7 on July 30, 2015, 06:01:33 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 30, 2015, 06:04:16 am
Post by: Jopax on July 30, 2015, 06:52:47 am
Still, a paradox style grand strategy in some new setting would be a pretty neat thing, like say sci-fi HoI or fantasy CK or something. Sure you can get that stuff with mods already, but those are usually limited in what they can do.
Post by: Wiles on July 30, 2015, 10:24:54 am
Sounds like something more modern, though it could still be Roman. I hope it is a more ahistorical grand strategy game this time around. Fantasy would be my favourite option, but elections don't sound very fantastical. Space could be fun too but the "terrain is important" hint doesn't really mesh so well with space.
EDIT: I totally missed that the hint was already posted above me. Need moar coffee.
Post by: Sonlirain on July 30, 2015, 10:26:47 am
Post by: Chosrau on July 31, 2015, 03:52:05 am
Quote
This is a project we've always dreamt about doing, something all of PI have been involved in, not just the PDS developers.
This hint is probably the first one that really makes me think it might be a space game.
Post by: Majestic7 on July 31, 2015, 05:01:13 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 31, 2015, 05:05:46 am
What might be cool is some kind of radical new era sci-fi set on Earth a century into the future, where the age of geopolitical stability has gone away due to technological advancement. It could be all about the struggle of the stagnant nation-states against new mass society concepts.QuoteThis is a project we've always dreamt about doing, something all of PI have been involved in, not just the PDS developers.
This hint is probably the first one that really makes me think it might be a space game.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on July 31, 2015, 06:23:51 am
My Little Pony Universalis w/ ClopClop!
that got weird quick.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 31, 2015, 08:30:42 am
QuoteThis is a project we've always dreamt about doing, something all of PI have been involved in, not just the PDS developers.
This hint is probably the first one that really makes me think it might be a space game.
I think the smart money is on a space game now. They're even in the process of getting a trademark for two things, one called "Stellaris" and another called something like "Coriolis" - https://oami.europa.eu/eSearch/#details/owners/332862 (pages 2 and 3)
Post by: Majestic7 on July 31, 2015, 10:46:04 am
Post by: Bouchart on July 31, 2015, 04:14:16 pm
Papacy: the game
Gravedigger simulator
Combine the two and make a game about the Cadaver Synod.
Post by: Teneb on July 31, 2015, 04:33:05 pm
In space.Papacy: the gameGravedigger simulatorCombine the two and make a game about the Cadaver Synod.
Post by: Linenoise on July 31, 2015, 06:41:18 pm
8)
Post by: Shadowlord on July 31, 2015, 10:26:11 pm
Today's hint is "Elections and Technological Development are important parts of the game."
Sounds like something more modern, though it could still be Roman. I hope it is a more ahistorical grand strategy game this time around. Fantasy would be my favourite option, but elections don't sound very fantastical. Space could be fun too but the "terrain is important" hint doesn't really mesh so well with space.
EDIT: I totally missed that the hint was already posted above me. Need moar coffee.
I'll be very amused if it turns out to be Ancient Athens: The Game.
Post by: Vendayn on August 01, 2015, 12:10:04 am
:D
Post by: Vendayn on August 01, 2015, 12:14:23 am
Marneus Augustus Calgar
:)
Post by: Andres on August 01, 2015, 12:18:48 am
Post by: Greenbane on August 01, 2015, 10:19:40 am
Today's hint is "Elections and Technological Development are important parts of the game."
Sounds like something more modern, though it could still be Roman. I hope it is a more ahistorical grand strategy game this time around. Fantasy would be my favourite option, but elections don't sound very fantastical. Space could be fun too but the "terrain is important" hint doesn't really mesh so well with space.
EDIT: I totally missed that the hint was already posted above me. Need moar coffee.
I'll be very amused if it turns out to be AncientAthensAliens: The Game.
Fix'd.
Anyway, a sci-fi grand strategy game would be fantastic. However, going from historical to fictional brings a great challenge: coming up with excellent lore.
Another possibility is a modern, post-Cold War HoI-like game. Sort of like Supreme Ruler 2020 and SuperPower.
Post by: Glloyd on August 01, 2015, 10:55:55 am
Spoiler: for length (click to show/hide)
Post by: Virtz on August 01, 2015, 12:27:52 pm
4. Terrain truly matters in this game.Could also mean there'll be detailed planetary invasions instead of the usual simple statistics thing most space 4x games have. Would be great to have an Emperor of the Fading Suns sort of deal where space and the different worlds are just different layers happening at the same time. Tho I kinda doubt that'd happen.
Again, this could mean pretty much any game set anywhere. Many point out historical battles in classical antiquity, but there have been matters where terrain matters in wars in all eras. How would it fit a game set in space then? Well, if you see celestial bodies such as planets as the terrain, then itt's a dominant feature of colonisation, production, trade and possibly ground warfare.
Post by: Catastrophic lolcats on August 03, 2015, 09:28:19 am
(http://forumcontent.paradoxplaza.com/public/121871/teaseraug3.png)
Black guy, modern hair cut, scan lines. It's a space game, boys.
I'm really hoping it's a spiritual successor to Alpha Centauri based around colonisation, future technology and political ideologies. I'll be disappointed if it's just another MoO2-like (although that's probably where the smart money is).
Post by: Graknorke on August 03, 2015, 09:37:52 am
I'm really hoping it's a spiritual successor to Alpha Centauri based around colonisation, future technology and political ideologies.That would indeed be pretty rad. Given how big of a letdown Civ:BE was.
Post by: Bouchart on August 03, 2015, 09:55:37 am
Post by: Jopax on August 03, 2015, 11:06:29 am
Or they could be pulling a fast one and have us timetravel to any of their eariler game periods to fuck shit up with future tech and whatnot.
Post by: BurnedToast on August 03, 2015, 11:28:05 am
Teaser number 8. (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/augustus-teaser-8-3rd-of-august-2015.874486/)
(http://forumcontent.paradoxplaza.com/public/121871/teaseraug3.png)
Black guy, modern hair cut, scan lines. It's a space game, boys.
I'm really hoping it's a spiritual successor to Alpha Centauri based around colonisation, future technology and political ideologies. I'll be disappointed if it's just another MoO2-like (although that's probably where the smart money is).
It could still be a "modern day" type game, not a space game. I think they only specifically ruled cold war era out, not the current era, or the very near future
I'm still pretty excited though, I'd love a ck-style space grand strategy game of some sort so I'm really hoping you're correct.
Even a moo2-style 4x would make me happy, as long as it's decent.
Post by: Jopax on August 03, 2015, 11:53:59 am
Cyberpunk corporation running type of deal. That would be so freaking cool, think about it, you're developing tech, buying elections and whatnot, corporate sabotage and espionage, the whole deal. And you can take the terrain bit as space being at a rather big premium so you'd have to plan out your expansion of factories and whatnot in order to do well.
CYBERPUNK CORPORATION SIM WE NEED IT NOW!
Post by: Malus on August 03, 2015, 12:09:55 pm
The greater the focus on characters, the better, I think. CK2 gained wide appeal because of the focus on dynastic mechanics, not the relatively mediocre conquest/war bits. If they could nail the same thing with a space game, it'd stand out from everything else on the market.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 03, 2015, 12:15:02 pm
Post by: Malus on August 03, 2015, 01:09:19 pm
Why not just play Crisis of the Confederation?Crisis of the Confederation is a hugely ambitious mod, but it's still stuck working within the confines of CK2. Ship design, real diplomacy, a research tree, random map generation, and probably most important -- polish -- isn't really comparable to a proper commercial release.
It's not really an either/or proposition, anyway. I love the idea of Crisis of the Confederation, but I'd still like to play Paradox's take on a similar idea with mechanics that would be impossible to implement in a CK2 mod.
Post by: Teneb on August 03, 2015, 01:22:01 pm
Post by: Greenbane on August 03, 2015, 01:30:24 pm
As a sidenote, as someone mentioned earlier, Emperor of the Fading Suns was quite innovative in that planets and space were entirely different layers, and I'd love to see that in a modern game. But such ambition is beyond most developers these days.
Post by: sambojin on August 03, 2015, 05:33:50 pm
Terrain is important. Terrain is very important in landings on planets (or moons).
Elections are important. Most of the space race was about electioneering, locally and abroad.
We reckon space. The moon is in space.
It's gonna be a moon landing thingo, with landings, old nuclear rovers and maybe even moon bases. All to show who is the best, in East vs West (or America vs Soviets). Might be historical, might be alternate timeline. Might be lots of things. I'm hoping alternate time line, with end goals being a proper mini-colony.
But I'm calling project Augustus on being about moon landings and other space exploration, back when that was a political drawcard. So there's wider ramifications of moon golf and buggy races than the simple coolness factor would normally show.
Post by: Teneb on August 03, 2015, 05:36:49 pm
Post by: sambojin on August 03, 2015, 05:51:04 pm
I mean, how steampunk does this thing look?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_21
And the Apollo/Soyuz Test mission could have ended the cold war if it was a little earlier (and they'd brought back a couple of hundred kilos of platinum and palladium, reasonably high grade tritium for reactors, or just titanium ore with them from moon landings and unfailed rovers, etc, instead of just rocks. That stuff was worth a fortune back then, and the moon's got it in spades). A nice jumble of co-operation, competition, warmongering, peacemaking and politics would have to be used or avoided for any reasonable outcome, no matter how successful the missions themselves were (just like the real space race, but we failed in many respects). It all could have been very different had billions been spent on space exploration and peace, rather than cold war build-ups that were never actually used.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ApolloSoyuz_Test_Project
(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ApolloSoyuz_Test_Project)
Post by: a1s on August 03, 2015, 07:26:29 pm
Paradox already said it's not Cold War eraDid they? Up to this point I assumed it was one of us saying that (based, I think, in part of them not wating to create competition for EvW)
Post by: Jopax on August 03, 2015, 07:27:18 pm
Post by: a1s on August 03, 2015, 07:32:46 pm
Post by: sambojin on August 03, 2015, 07:47:07 pm
And teaser 8 also fits in nicely with that timeline, because politics and civil rights were pretty big on both sides of the divide back then (slight understatement).
Be a great way for PI to clear a huge backlog of potential "could have been" games. Space. EvW. American Civil Politics. Cold War politics. The rise of Asia in technological superiority. And moon buggy racing and golf simulation.
This game will have EVERYTHING!
Post by: Catastrophic lolcats on August 03, 2015, 07:50:13 pm
Dead, buried and the gravestone has turned to dust. It's not coming back. So why not a different Cold War game?Because they confirmed it wasn't going to be a cold war game. The game would have also been in development at the same time as EvW, makes no sense to be working on two identical games at once.
Theres also the fact they trademarked a title called Stellaris only a few months ago.
Post by: a1s on August 03, 2015, 08:20:20 pm
I guess I'm not clear enough, so I'll be more direct: Please provide a link where they confirm it.Dead, buried and the gravestone has turned to dust. It's not coming back. So why not a different Cold War game?Because they confirmed it wasn't going to be a cold war game.
The game would have also been in development at the same time as EvW, makes no sense to be working on two identical games at once.EvW had been having problems for a while before it was cancelled, decision to make Augustus could have been the final nail in it's coffin.
Post by: sambojin on August 03, 2015, 08:56:30 pm
Even if there's heaps of political shenanigans going on in the background, cold war style or not. Could just be about space, with a bit of window dressing to suit the time period.
It'd be like saying Hotline Miami 2 is a cold war game, or possibly it's about rural practices in southern Albania in the 70's, just because it's in the same time period. Who knows? Lots of those enemies could have been commie Albanian farmers, it just wasn't a large part of the game.
Post by: Culise on August 03, 2015, 09:05:20 pm
I guess I'm not clear enough, so I'll be more direct: Please provide a link where they confirm it.Dead, buried and the gravestone has turned to dust. It's not coming back. So why not a different Cold War game?Because they confirmed it wasn't going to be a cold war game.The game would have also been in development at the same time as EvW, makes no sense to be working on two identical games at once.EvW had been having problems for a while before it was cancelled, decision to make Augustus could have been the final nail in it's coffin.
*ping (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/augustus-teaser-4-28th-of-july-2015.873393/#post-19704279)*
Quote from: Johan
Quote from: ThureIt CAN'T be a Cold War game...! They wouldn't work on two ones at the same time (and yes, Paradox devs helped to develop EvW.
True. For EvW we worked on design, interface & art to help out BL-Logic. It is NOT a cold-war game, as East vs West was supposed to be our cold-war game.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 03, 2015, 09:19:33 pm
It'd be like saying Hotline Miami 2 is a cold war gameBut...but it is a Cold War game.
Post by: sambojin on August 03, 2015, 09:22:42 pm
Post by: a1s on August 03, 2015, 09:35:11 pm
it was about shooting people.Hence the "war" part. ("cold", on the other hand, was probably meant ironically)
*ping (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/augustus-teaser-4-28th-of-july-2015.873393/#post-19704279)*thanks.
Post by: Majestic7 on August 04, 2015, 12:31:35 am
Post by: sambojin on August 04, 2015, 01:59:14 am
It was all a cover-up (just in the opposite direction from Hollywood moon landing conspiracies. There really was something out there, no aliens needed, just stuff we didn't have resources-wise). Because of science and civil unrest and politics and money, it "failed" in our world, that we know of. Minus the MLK:BDF parts.
F'ing hippies really did lose that peace on war thingy, didn't they?
They still don't know how bad they lost, they lost it that badly...... F'ing hippies...... I could be a spaceman right now if it wasn't for them!
(playing devil's advocate on the copulation of hippies, and steering right clear of MLK:BDF. But it would be a very interesting time period for alternate timelines, regardless of what thing Project Augustus focuses on, even as an entry narrative to the main game. I still think it'll be humanity's attempt at being not only emperors on Earth, but the solar system as well. Then, perhaps, the stars. From 1973 onwards, and awesome high-thrust VASIMR plasma propulsion being done (it was), tritium reactors finalized (they were), and technology that we're only "barely" able to utilize now in "our timeline" in real life. And a host of agreements being made on "Use of the Moon", by exactly 2 powers. Yeah, right. The moon is sweet. Has been for 40 years.)
Post by: sambojin on August 04, 2015, 04:01:09 am
Post by: h3lblad3 on August 04, 2015, 05:03:52 am
Where exactly do we get our tritium from anyway? Just as a question?The moon, I think.
Post by: Greenbane on August 04, 2015, 08:26:37 am
Yeah, but not really. Mostly it was just about shooting people.
Any Paradox-style grand strategy game set in the Cold War period wouldn't be able to ignore said Cold War. Even the space race had a strong role in it.
Maybe it's not the usual Paradox style, but even then, chances are the hint simply implies the game isn't set in a 1945-1991 timeframe.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on August 04, 2015, 09:21:18 am
Tech is important as well, so lets assume it's after or during the industrial revolution, so after 1760.
New IP. Lets assume they arn't going to rehash the timelines of any of their other IP's.
EU is set from 1444 to 1821. Victory from 1836 to 1936. Hearts of iron is from 1936 to 1948.
Not during the cold war. That rules out 1947 to 1991.
So since it's after the industrial revolution, if we assume it doesn't step on the timelines of any existing IP's, it has to take place after 1991.
SPESS GAME
Post by: Teneb on August 04, 2015, 09:28:02 am
Quote
Leader characters play an important role in the game.That was today's preview, and I don't think someone has posted it here already.
Post by: Catastrophic lolcats on August 04, 2015, 09:43:05 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 04, 2015, 09:49:33 am
Post by: Culise on August 04, 2015, 01:29:49 pm
Where exactly do we get our tritium from anyway? Just as a question?Our actual, present-day tritium production? Heavy water reactors or the irradiation of Li-6 (triggering neutron activation and causing it to split into regular He-4, the desired H-3, and a bit of energy). Obtaining it from He-3 (which H-3 decays into) or regular fission is generally impractical, and the US' heavy water reactors that were used for producing tritium were actually shut down back in 1988; as far as I can tell, all remaining US production of H-3 is conducted at Watts Bar or a dedicated H-3 production facility, both of which use lithium rods. It helps that you don't actually need a lot of it at all; commercial demand for it is only on the level of hundreds of grams in a year.
Post by: Glloyd on August 04, 2015, 04:14:42 pm
Oh how I wish it will be Paradox flavoured Alpha Centauri. Although personally I'm betting a Dune-esque space 4X.
It's supposedly been confirmed to be another grand strategy game.
Post by: a1s on August 04, 2015, 05:15:51 pm
I thought 4x was a sub-genre of Grand?Oh how I wish it will be Paradox flavoured Alpha Centauri. Although personally I'm betting a Dune-esque space 4X.
It's supposedly been confirmed to be another grand strategy game.
Post by: a1s on August 05, 2015, 08:54:11 am
Quote
I have seen things you people wouldnt believe...Blade Running Sim?
edit: well actually that speech is all about space (on the surface of it.)
Post by: Greenbane on August 05, 2015, 09:08:32 am
Quote from: a1s link=topic=152166.msg6423015#msg6423015
I thought 4x was a sub-genre of Grand?
Definitely a sibling at least.
Conceptually, eXplore, eXpand, eXploit and eXterminate apply very well.
Post by: Karlito on August 05, 2015, 12:16:36 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/lDejdJi.png)
Post by: Kot on August 05, 2015, 12:25:58 pm
Post by: Jopax on August 05, 2015, 12:48:28 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on August 05, 2015, 12:49:48 pm
\o/
Post by: Teneb on August 05, 2015, 12:50:28 pm
Post by: Wiles on August 05, 2015, 12:53:45 pm
edit: here's a bigger picture of the steam page with the release date.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kot on August 05, 2015, 01:11:04 pm
Nah, it's fake, it can't be a Paradox game.
Or maybe its just a herald of new Grand Stratedgy games that finally may not look like spreadsheets.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on August 05, 2015, 01:14:04 pm
Post by: Puzzlemaker on August 05, 2015, 02:49:09 pm
I'm so excited I didn't shit myself but if I had no self respect I would have.
That's great to know! Thanks for sharing!
Post by: Azazass on August 05, 2015, 03:02:55 pm
I'm so excited I didn't shit myself but if I had no self respect I would have.
Who's stopping you from doing it? Self respect? NONSENSE!
Post by: Graknorke on August 05, 2015, 03:09:52 pm
Post by: a1s on August 05, 2015, 05:17:55 pm
Europa Stellaris.Sriously? You decided 'Europa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(moon))' was better for a game about space then "Univers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe)alis"? You're so provincial.
Post by: WealthyRadish on August 05, 2015, 05:29:06 pm
I get angry when I'm hyped.
Post by: Culise on August 05, 2015, 05:33:55 pm
*ahem*
I find myself pleased with this development.
Post by: Kot on August 05, 2015, 05:39:19 pm
Oh, I am very sorry, Stellaris Universalis is so much better, and totally doesn't sound silly.Europa Stellaris.Sriously? You decided 'Europa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(moon))' was better for a game about space then "Univers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe)alis"? You're so provincial.
Also, why not have an Holy Roman Empire in SPESSS?
Post by: Defacto on August 05, 2015, 05:40:14 pm
Oh, and here's the screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/wAJgu#uOWK0iI
Okay... let's try to see what we can find out from the screenies, shall we?
- Map is 2-Dimensional, stars are connected with preset routes. There are different types of star, and something that looks like a cartoony black hole. System map is in 2.5, maybe 3D.
- There are a number of resources: Some kind of ''Power'' (lightning bolt), some kind of ''Gem'', a cartoony atom (Science?), Green globe (Growth?), and a cog on yellow background (Industry?) these three only show the increase, seemingly indicating that they're not resources that can not be stored. Then we have what looks like some kind of control cap. After that, some kind of resource that we have zero out of zero of. Most likely something rare and important.
- In one of the later screenshots, the ''Power'' resource is replaced by a ''Credits'' resource.
- Time goes by as is traditional in PI GSG games: One ''tick'' is 1 day, and there are five speeds avaiable.
- There's a picture of a cute robot. Our advisor? Our overlord?
- Our nation symbol is in the top left, as is traditional for PI GSG games.
- The combat seems to be freeform: Maybe the 1-day ticks are only for the economical simulation, and ships fly around and fight in true real-time.
- Missiles and lasers exist.
- Construction ships and Science ships are examples of civilian ships.
- Ships have hitpoints
- There are ground forces
- Planets and moons are classified according to environment.
- Borders seem to be projected out from systems - most liekly there is some kind of ''Influence'' mechanic where the borders are ''pushing'' against each other.
Overall, I must say, I actually feel a bit disappointed. Maybe I shouldn't draw too many conclusions from these images, but it just looks like Stardrive, Star Ruler, GalCiv, and Space Empires put into a gigantic mixer. I don't think there's anything wrong with that type of game, but I really am not interested in another one of those, and I expected something else from PI.
Maybe I'll change my mind when we get to know more.
Post by: ibot66 on August 05, 2015, 06:14:29 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on August 05, 2015, 06:16:21 pm
Post by: Teneb on August 05, 2015, 06:26:30 pm
Universe Universalis.No, no, the director of EU is not working on this. Crusader of Iron... in space.
Maybe the thread title should be changed now that we know the name for the game?
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on August 05, 2015, 07:29:13 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on August 05, 2015, 08:34:43 pm
Clearly a sequel to Marathon Infinity by Bungie, as the three AIs conquer stars to fuel their escape from the inevitable collapse.
It's so obvious! PTW.
Post by: sambojin on August 05, 2015, 09:54:19 pm
There's nothing in those screenies that definitely say realtime battles, but it does look like it. Although, space movement may take literally days, as well as chargin' my lazors, so it could still be time-tick, just very pretty time-tick. And not to scale for ship/star system scaling (which would look silly anyway).
Post by: Frumple on August 05, 2015, 11:58:17 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on August 06, 2015, 12:57:35 am
A little disappointed that they didn't buy my idea of Caesar-stabbing-slash-adoption-simulator.
Edit: looking at screenies, I hope it will concentrate on the strategic level instead of tactical, the screencaps of all those ships just made me a tiny little worried.
Post by: Retropunch on August 06, 2015, 07:00:16 am
One thing I really don't need is another moderately-ok 4x in space game. We have hundreds and they're all pretty much exactly the same with just a few varying mechanics.
If Paradox could come up with something really different (like as much diplomacy and intrigue as CKII) then I'd be really for it, but from those screenshots it just looks like a basic 4x in space with possibly a bit more character focus.
Post by: BlindKitty on August 06, 2015, 08:12:55 am
I'm just afraid that real-time approach won't be the best one for the game.
Post by: Krevsin on August 06, 2015, 08:19:33 am
Otherwise I'll be very, very dissapointed.
Post by: lordcooper on August 06, 2015, 08:22:21 am
Aurora but with graphics, Paradox.
Otherwise I'll be very, very dissapointed.
Moon on a stick please.
Post by: Krevsin on August 06, 2015, 08:38:18 am
Aurora but with graphics, Paradox.
Otherwise I'll be very, very dissapointed.
Moon on a stick please.
Spoiler: here you go (click to show/hide)
Post by: Bouchart on August 06, 2015, 08:42:40 am
Aurora but with graphics, Paradox.
Otherwise I'll be very, very dissapointed.
It doesn't even need graphics, just a better interface.
And a Space Pope.
Post by: Teneb on August 06, 2015, 09:16:03 am
Post by: Catastrophic lolcats on August 06, 2015, 10:06:06 am
Thing is, this won't be a 4x, since Paradox doesn't do those as far as I know (publish them, sure, not make). It's going to be grand strategy like their other 4 titles (CK, EU, Vic, HoI).I don't believe the line between 4x and Grand Strategy is all that well defined. Judging from the screenshots we're seeing standard core mechanics that are heavily associated with the "space 4x" genre; research, production, credits, science. Ships, colonisation, diplomacy, planets.
I think it's not unreasonable to say that if you took those screenshots and removed the Paradox context someone would probably say it's space 4x. Perhaps the screenshots are just doing a very poor job at illustrating the mechanics but they're all we have to go on right now.
Post by: Jopax on August 06, 2015, 10:29:57 am
Post by: Rolan7 on August 06, 2015, 10:39:38 am
Yeah, we need a bit more info to go on before jumping to conclusions guys.No, I'm going to keep assuming this is somehow in Bungie's Marathon universe :P They said 7 was important!
I wish I had more to add than "I'm interested and optimistic" but I don't. Looking forward to seeing where this goes.
Post by: Azazass on August 06, 2015, 11:15:47 am
And a Space Pope.
This.
This is what we truly need.
Post by: Iceblaster on August 06, 2015, 11:48:16 am
Spoiler: Brought to you by (click to show/hide)
On another note, I am indeed excited for this. Sounds like a fun title, regardless if it's a totally awesome 4x with all these details.
I just like paradox grand stategies :P
(please be vicky 2 in space)
Post by: Retropunch on August 06, 2015, 01:08:36 pm
If it was a really good 4x I'd be very happy with it - and we certainly don't know enough to judge that yet- but from the few screen shots I've seen I've not seen anything ground breaking. My sincere hope is that they bring diplomacy, espionage and intrigue to the forefront. In most space games it's pretty much an afterthought, and it could be something that elevates it above the usual if they put enough effort into that side of it.
My biggest fear is that they'll just phone it in and produce a by-the-numbers space 4x. Really don't need another of those.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on August 06, 2015, 01:11:50 pm
That would be radical.
Post by: Jopax on August 06, 2015, 01:13:10 pm
Here: http://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive
Post by: Kot on August 06, 2015, 01:16:44 pm
It's called Imperia. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138280.0)
Post by: Teneb on August 06, 2015, 02:33:22 pm
Post by: Jopax on August 06, 2015, 02:38:30 pm
Still, dissappointgly little info overall.
Post by: Aklyon on August 06, 2015, 02:42:14 pm
Also Spaaaaaaaaaace! :)
Post by: jocan2003 on August 06, 2015, 05:13:25 pm
Back on topic, yeah i loved paradox game and i love space game, love their depth, attention to detail ( not speaking graphic wise... ) etc. Eagerly waiting more information.
Post by: Teneb on August 06, 2015, 05:21:23 pm
Post by: Rakonas on August 06, 2015, 07:17:39 pm
It's clearly grand strategy and not 4X though. I think the distinction is obvious when you're playing if not easy to describe.
Post by: jocan2003 on August 06, 2015, 07:26:02 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on August 06, 2015, 07:27:46 pm
Strategy is more about diplomatie and empire management from the get go, 4X is you start small and explore expand and exterminate, while in strategy most of the time there is very limited exploration, expansion is in 90% of the time directly relate to the extermination while in 4X there is expansion without warfare in the starts.
Historically speaking, you can go either route in most PI games.
Post by: Shadowlord on August 06, 2015, 08:41:13 pm
Strategy is more about diplomatie and empire management from the get go, 4X is you start small and explore expand and exterminate, while in strategy most of the time there is very limited exploration, expansion is in 90% of the time directly relate to the extermination while in 4X there is expansion without warfare in the starts.
You forgot embrace and extend!
(No, I don't remember what the 4th X actually was. Or what MOO3's 5th X was either.)
Post by: a1s on August 06, 2015, 08:55:44 pm
It's eXplore the map, eXpand your base, eXploit the bugs, Extend the metaphor, eXact revenge, eXterminate others and still Exist at the end. Unless you're good at math, that's 4x in a nutshell.Strategy is more about diplomatie and empire management from the get go, 4X is you start small and explore expand and exterminate, while in strategy most of the time there is very limited exploration, expansion is in 90% of the time directly relate to the extermination while in 4X there is expansion without warfare in the starts.
You forgot embrace and extend!
(No, I don't remember what the 4th X actually was. Or what MOO3's 5th X was either.)
Post by: Aklyon on August 06, 2015, 08:59:12 pm
You forgot eXchange diplomatic things for tech you want taken from the AI, if you aren't ahead of them already.It's eXplore the map, eXpand your base, eXploit the bugs, eXtend the metaphor, eXact revenge, eXterminate others and still Exist at the end. Unless you're good at math, that's 4x in a nutshell.Strategy is more about diplomatie and empire management from the get go, 4X is you start small and explore expand and exterminate, while in strategy most of the time there is very limited exploration, expansion is in 90% of the time directly relate to the extermination while in 4X there is expansion without warfare in the starts.
You forgot embrace and extend!
(No, I don't remember what the 4th X actually was. Or what MOO3's 5th X was either.)
Post by: umiman on August 06, 2015, 09:44:56 pm
Quote
Exploration and discovery will play a huge part, particularly in the early game period, which was likened to sending out groups of heroes to delve dungeons in an RPG. Except your RPG heroes will be scientists. In a similar vein, it was hinted that Stellaris will have a rather non-tradition approach to tech, distributing it through discovery like loot (or cards in a collectible card game,) rather than in a tech tree.
Once you bump into alien empires around the mid-game period, the title becomes more like Crusader Kings 2 or EUIV, with the same complexity to diplomacy and warfare. Towards the end-game, population in your empire becomes more diverse and separate factions may begin to form and agitate for change. Paradox offered the example of a robot worker revolution as a possible galactic crisis that can emerge.
Mmm... That seems like a lot of stuff. I don't doubt Paradox's ability to overcomplicate things... actually I rather like it... but that seems a bit ambitious.
Wouldn't want another Spore on our hands.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on August 06, 2015, 09:47:13 pm
Post by: Teneb on August 06, 2015, 09:57:20 pm
Post by: MrWiggles on August 07, 2015, 12:30:46 am
Really think they could make Vic3, into a pretty good game into a pretty great one.
Post by: Uristides on August 07, 2015, 04:27:22 am
Gosh, I hope that PI makes Victoria 3. They seem to learn much since Vic2. With EU4 and whats been shown of HoI3, they seem to finally really crack how to make good UI for their games, and how to control the flow of information to the player. Mechanically, they seem to be about the same.Indeed.
Really think they could make Vic3, into a pretty good game into a pretty great one.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on August 07, 2015, 04:38:23 am
I'm confused by the rampant optimism in the comments. Usually people just go to complain and condemn before anything is even out.
Sounds pretty ambitious, anyway! New ideas! Throwing away a lot of the usual 4X formula! The possibility, seemingly, to replicate the Great Crusade and 40k (or a lot of other famous scifi cultures, such as the Culture)! I need to watch my hype levels, damn.
Post by: Cruxador on August 07, 2015, 04:42:03 am
Gosh, I hope that PI makes Victoria 3. They seem to learn much since Vic2. With EU4 and whats been shown of HoI3, they seem to finally really crack how to make good UI for their games, and how to control the flow of information to the player. Mechanically, they seem to be about the same.UI is one thing, but I wouldn't want a Victoria with a mana system.
Really think they could make Vic3, into a pretty good game into a pretty great one.
Post by: Majestic7 on August 07, 2015, 05:01:03 am
Post by: Chosrau on August 07, 2015, 06:27:21 am
Quote from: RPS article
Planetary management involves shifting civilians from one tile to another to gather the resources needed. Buildings enjoy adjacency bonuses if placed next to similar structures. So far, so familiar. The introduction of blocker tiles complicates matters slightly. An otherwise desirable piece of land might contain dangerous wildlife that must be cleared out and a random event might cause that wildlife to spread across the planet. Or a giant sinkhole might open up, requiring specific tech to seal it so that the land can be reclaimed. Worse still, interfering with that sinkhole might interrupt a subtarranean race, leading to an invasion from the depths.
Am I the only one scared by this? If I only have one planet, not much else to do so, sure it's nice having something to do. But once I reach the point of having dozens of planets this seems like such a hassle.
Post by: BFEL on August 07, 2015, 07:08:02 am
Welp, I'm becoming The Dominion as quickly as possible.
Post by: Majestic7 on August 07, 2015, 07:10:22 am
Quote from: RPS articlePlanetary management involves shifting civilians from one tile to another to gather the resources needed. Buildings enjoy adjacency bonuses if placed next to similar structures. So far, so familiar. The introduction of blocker tiles complicates matters slightly. An otherwise desirable piece of land might contain dangerous wildlife that must be cleared out and a random event might cause that wildlife to spread across the planet. Or a giant sinkhole might open up, requiring specific tech to seal it so that the land can be reclaimed. Worse still, interfering with that sinkhole might interrupt a subtarranean race, leading to an invasion from the depths.
Am I the only one scared by this? If I only have one planet, not much else to do so, sure it's nice having something to do. But once I reach the point of having dozens of planets this seems like such a hassle.
If it is done like in Victoria II you don't need to micromanage, but you can if you like. In VicII it basically depends on your economical system; planned economy (aka communism) is micromanagers dream while laissez-faire is..well...hands-off. I hope they will include something similar where the political system actually affects your play style.
Post by: Teneb on August 07, 2015, 07:34:32 am
"Theres so much more: observation posts to monitor planetbound species, either non-aggressively or with added abductions and invasive surgeries; pre-sentient species that can be genetically modified and controlled; genocide and enslavement."Time to make an army of abducted aliens Ethereal style (while watching out for any XCOM-esque organizations)
Welp, I'm becoming The Dominion as quickly as possible.
Post by: Bouchart on August 07, 2015, 08:16:51 am
Post by: Sheb on August 07, 2015, 08:23:01 am
Post by: Teneb on August 07, 2015, 08:25:13 am
I hope you can create fake comets over primitive planets to f*** them up.If it's not in the game, I hope it's moddable.
Post by: Kot on August 07, 2015, 08:34:16 am
I hope you can create fake comets over primitive planets to f*** them up.This would explain EVERYTHING.
Post by: Aklyon on August 07, 2015, 08:35:36 am
"Comet Sighted" needs to be an event."Well then blow it up! Terrible things, comets"
Post by: Puzzlemaker on August 07, 2015, 08:48:09 am
Post by: Jopax on August 07, 2015, 08:55:11 am
Post by: Puzzlemaker on August 07, 2015, 08:59:23 am
Well from the article it seems most of the stuff is already in, so I'm betting that most of what's promised does end up in the final game. And honestly, the systems they described don't seem that much different from what they're used to making in their other games, if only on a larger scale or with more stuff influencing them.
I'm more thinking of them hooking it all together in a meaningfull way. I mean, it's fairly easy to have procedurally generated planets, just slap a grid with different textures or whatever, but to make it meaningfull and actually impact gameplay is another thing.
I am afraid it will end up like Spore, a whole bunch of features that, if expanded upon, would make a good game, but instead it seems like several different games sown together.
Post by: Jopax on August 07, 2015, 09:28:59 am
Post by: Shadowlord on August 07, 2015, 09:50:05 am
instead of the usual interesting early and mid game with the lategame just being next turn and doomfleets all around.
Or in the case of MoO 2, one doomship which can destroy entire fleets and worlds on its own.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on August 07, 2015, 05:15:35 pm
instead of the usual interesting early and mid game with the lategame just being next turn and doomfleets all around.
Or in the case of MoO 2, one doomship which can destroy entire fleets and worlds on its own.
*star ruler flashbacks*
Post by: Descan on August 07, 2015, 05:53:47 pm
Post by: Kot on August 07, 2015, 06:07:47 pm
Dem ships bigger than galaxies.instead of the usual interesting early and mid game with the lategame just being next turn and doomfleets all around.
Or in the case of MoO 2, one doomship which can destroy entire fleets and worlds on its own.
*star ruler flashbacks*
Post by: Eagle_eye on August 07, 2015, 07:14:19 pm
Post by: Cruxador on August 08, 2015, 08:32:01 am
Post by: Culise on August 08, 2015, 11:54:34 am
This is Paradox developing the game. Not publishing it. They aren't going to say "well it turned out it sucks" and kill the project half a year before the release is scheduled. The game might end up being casual tripe but (unlike the latest EU and HoI games) there isn't a better predecessor for it to compare unfavorably to, which to me seems like the biggest problem people have with those games. And it'll have plenty of support, even if a lot of it might wind up being paid DLC. Will it be perfect at launch? Probably not. Will some people have expectations too high for reality to match ever? I don't doubt it. But I'd be willing to bet this game, like literally every other one of Paradox's flagship titles, will end up being a grand strategy mainstay.Actually, they are willing to do exactly that, if they feel it necessary; they did it with their planned foray into RPGs, Runemaster/Project Nero, which was another PDS-developed in-house project. They scrapped it because they couldn't make it entertaining, rather than pushing out a bunch of dreck onto the market. They don't just do it to other people's works; they'll go Old Yeller on their own pet projects if need be.
That said, I do look forward to this. I'm a little worried about the high expectations and grandiose promises which make me think of MOO3, but Paradox has always been known for their post-release service and the flexibility of their games for modders.
Post by: BFEL on August 08, 2015, 04:27:50 pm
Post by: Sergarr on August 08, 2015, 04:47:33 pm
research is randomized (described as like "a random loot system").I bet this is going to cause so much rage from ironman people when they repeatedly get shit-tier technology...
At least there hopefully won't be any of that "lucky nations" BS.
Post by: Uristides on August 08, 2015, 04:50:51 pm
Miroslavs can into spaceOfficial HoI4 -> Stellaris converter confirmed. Now you can recreate the historical events that led Hitler to flee earth on his flying saucer and begin a new reich on mars.
Post by: Dutrius on August 08, 2015, 05:45:54 pm
Post by: jocan2003 on August 08, 2015, 06:08:54 pm
Well if you get unlucky in research, nothing prevent you from *stealing* others tech! ( i think i saw something like that in the interview thingy ).research is randomized (described as like "a random loot system").I bet this is going to cause so much rage from ironman people when they repeatedly get shit-tier technology...
At least there hopefully won't be any of that "lucky nations" BS.
Post by: RulerOfNothing on August 08, 2015, 07:08:40 pm
Post by: Sirus on August 08, 2015, 09:09:36 pm
Post by: umiman on August 09, 2015, 12:54:39 am
Post by: Shadowlord on August 09, 2015, 02:03:47 am
Post by: Shadowlord on August 09, 2015, 02:11:08 am
Post by: BFEL on August 09, 2015, 08:59:07 am
[spoiler]You blow up their homeworld in Corruption,Piracy: Not a life choice.
Post by: Retropunch on August 09, 2015, 11:50:40 am
Well, I'm talking full-blown Space Pirate stuff; specifically, the Metroid-universe Space Pirate stuff.
...it really wasn't a good idea to blow through the entire trilogy in less than a week.
Distant Worlds really does provide probably the closest you'll probably get to that. but the price. oh god the price.
I'm really hoping that Stellaris manages to be similar to CK and the like where you can't realistically take over the entire galaxy. Like all space games tend to be 'become the absolute ruler of the universe' whereas I think it'd be great if you could both play a smaller power which isn't ever going to raise to such heights.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on August 09, 2015, 11:59:15 am
I'm really hoping that Stellaris manages to be similar to CK and the like where you can't realistically take over the entire galaxy.
What? Of course you can realistically take over the entire map in CK2.
Post by: Kanil on August 09, 2015, 12:19:52 pm
I'm really hoping that Stellaris manages to be similar to CK and the like where you can't realistically take over the entire galaxy. Like all space games tend to be 'become the absolute ruler of the universe' whereas I think it'd be great if you could both play a smaller power which isn't ever going to raise to such heights.
World conquest in CK2 isn't especially hard.
That said, I'm really not very excited about this game. You start alone, all the AI nations start with nothing as well at approximately the same time, and the only screenshot of a map we've seen has just four nations on it. It seems like there won't be an abundance of independent nations, of various degrees of power... like you'd find in pretty much every other one of their games.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on August 09, 2015, 12:43:48 pm
Here's a galaxy picture someone apparently pulled from the site. (http://www.stellarisgame.com/assets/map/universe-3019eced36b229d06bfa007aa140adb3.jpg) Looks like plenty of space for plenty of nations.
Post by: Kot on August 09, 2015, 12:57:30 pm
Yes.
Post by: Kanil on August 09, 2015, 01:00:10 pm
You can set how many you want; fully configurable. They probably did 4 just to start with something simple.
With no upper limit? Can every star start as an OPM?
Post by: Sheb on August 09, 2015, 01:08:08 pm
Post by: Kanil on August 09, 2015, 01:13:15 pm
Why? There doesn't seem to be much more stars than there is provinces in CK2.
Civs in this game are probably a little more complicated/resource intensive than those of CK2... so I can see having 1200 independents might cause lag. But if the game can't handle at least 100, I'm going to be disappointed.
(Well, sort of. Disappointed in the sense that "Paradox space game" makes me think CK2 in space, and this wouldn't be that.)
Post by: LoSboccacc on August 09, 2015, 01:15:48 pm
Post by: Retropunch on August 09, 2015, 01:23:05 pm
I'm really hoping that Stellaris manages to be similar to CK and the like where you can't realistically take over the entire galaxy.
What? Of course you can realistically take over the entire map in CK2.
Well it's pretty difficult if you start off as a small count or duke. I'm sure it's been done, but it wouldn't be standard play.
That's what I'd like to see really, a take on a space 4x without it all being about complete domination
Post by: Sheb on August 09, 2015, 01:24:50 pm
Post by: Sirus on August 09, 2015, 01:33:44 pm
You should try Distant Worlds. Complete galactic domination is extremely time-consuming, if not difficult or impossible. And depending on your government type and race, conquering the universe might even be counter-productive.I'm really hoping that Stellaris manages to be similar to CK and the like where you can't realistically take over the entire galaxy.
What? Of course you can realistically take over the entire map in CK2.
Well it's pretty difficult if you start off as a small count or duke. I'm sure it's been done, but it wouldn't be standard play.
That's what I'd like to see really, a take on a space 4x without it all being about complete domination
Post by: Retropunch on August 09, 2015, 02:22:37 pm
You should try Distant Worlds. Complete galactic domination is extremely time-consuming, if not difficult or impossible. And depending on your government type and race, conquering the universe might even be counter-productive.
I'm a big fan of distant worlds and often do go down that route. The only thing is that it's still all about domination (whether it be trade, resources or whatever the goal is) and, unless you play with all peaceful races you definitely need to expand/build up enough so that you don't get absolutely destroyed by whatever warmongering race or event comes along. So it always to me ends up with a similar play style of aggressive expansion.
I'd just like a deeper space 4x really, with a lot more diplomacy and intrigue rather than constantly building the biggest warship possible.
Post by: mainiac on August 09, 2015, 02:28:00 pm
It's not hard, it's just boring as hell because it means spending a couple of centuries Holy Warring vastly inferior foes.
Or play OPviking religion.
Post by: Teneb on August 09, 2015, 03:43:38 pm
Actually, the strongest religion in CK2 in purely mechanical terms is Reformed Tengri. ... Now I'll have to do Space Mongols when this game is out.It's not hard, it's just boring as hell because it means spending a couple of centuries Holy Warring vastly inferior foes.Or play OPviking religion.
Post by: Zangi on August 09, 2015, 07:44:29 pm
By Paradox Interactive in space... it means Europa Universalis in space? Cause it sure as hell doesn't look like CK2 in space...
Post by: scriver on August 10, 2015, 02:15:10 am
Post by: Zangi on August 11, 2015, 03:39:03 pm
Alright, this article may or may not be a better explanation of wtf Stellaris is about. Sounds like it may have CK2 elements, among other things that sound cool... uplifting, randomly generated. Yup. +1 Interest
Post by: PanH on August 11, 2015, 06:33:58 pm
And why every game in space has ship design :'(
Post by: Rolan7 on August 11, 2015, 06:39:47 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on August 11, 2015, 06:43:46 pm
And why every game in space has ship design :'(
Um, because it's great?
Anyways, that article actually makes me really hopeful for the game. It makes it sound like the space strategy i've always wanted! I can't wait.
Post by: Kot on August 11, 2015, 06:54:35 pm
And why every game in space has ship design :'(The real question is why not every 4x has unit design.
Post by: Aklyon on August 11, 2015, 07:29:41 pm
Because no one care what warrior have at first. Warrior have club? Club good. Until bow beats club. Then, archer good. Until next step up.And why every game in space has ship design :'(The real question is why not every 4x has unit design.
Spaceship have guns? What kind of guns, and do they look fancy or do they look practical? Is this a scifi ship or a mil-scifi ship? How big is it? Is its name a running gag or is it not important enough to be named uniquely? And how many of them do you have!
Post by: Shadowlord on August 11, 2015, 07:36:35 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on August 11, 2015, 07:40:33 pm
Except bows don't always beat clubs unless the game is simplified a lot. I mean unless Firaxis made it.
Against heavy armor, I'd actually much prefer a big-ass club
Post by: a1s on August 11, 2015, 08:18:40 pm
I have 2 word for you: Agincourt.Except bows don't always beat clubs unless the game is simplified a lot. I mean unless Firaxis made it.
Against heavy armor, I'd actually much prefer a big-ass club
Post by: Aklyon on August 11, 2015, 08:25:49 pm
Looks like only one word, mate.I have 2 word for you: Agincourt.Except bows don't always beat clubs unless the game is simplified a lot. I mean unless Firaxis made it.
Against heavy armor, I'd actually much prefer a big-ass club
Post by: Kot on August 11, 2015, 08:30:47 pm
Glorious welsh longbow folded bazillion times by Japanese swordsmiths to create finiest axes known to batkind.I have 2 word for you: Agincourt.Except bows don't always beat clubs unless the game is simplified a lot. I mean unless Firaxis made it.
Against heavy armor, I'd actually much prefer a big-ass club
Post by: Rolan7 on August 11, 2015, 08:31:54 pm
You're thinking of Welsh longbows I think. They're *like* clubs, in that they're... uh... made of wood?I have 2 word for you: Agincourt.Except bows don't always beat clubs unless the game is simplified a lot. I mean unless Firaxis made it.
Against heavy armor, I'd actually much prefer a big-ass club
But yeah, it's a strange truth that weapon technology always outpaces armor. With one notable and hilarious exception I know of, the Monitor vs the Merrimack. The ironplated ships of the American Civil War.
Glorious welsh longbow folded bazillion times by Japanese swordsmiths to create finiest axes known to batkind.yes
Post by: PanH on August 11, 2015, 08:53:43 pm
Hey, that was more utter incompetence against bows. I think clubs or even rocks would have been enough.I have 2 word for you: Agincourt.Except bows don't always beat clubs unless the game is simplified a lot. I mean unless Firaxis made it.
Against heavy armor, I'd actually much prefer a big-ass club
Also, the thing about unit design, is that it's just another mechanic for min maxing.
Either it doesn't matter, and in this case, why add it ?
Either it is important, and force you to min-max to get good units (or good counters, but that's often rock-paper-scissor style).
Imo, it just doesn't add anything to a grand strategy game. Most 4x games would be better without it.
Post by: Teneb on August 11, 2015, 09:00:39 pm
Normand go homeGlorious welsh longbow folded bazillion times by Japanese swordsmiths to create finiest axes known to batkind.I have 2 word for you: Agincourt.Except bows don't always beat clubs unless the game is simplified a lot. I mean unless Firaxis made it.
Against heavy armor, I'd actually much prefer a big-ass club
Post by: Vendayn on August 11, 2015, 09:09:44 pm
In an MMO maybe yeah.
But like Skyrim? Does changing my height make me stronger/faster/slower or anything? Nope. Its just to waste time and create an illusion of difference.
More RPGs would do far better like in Witcher 3, a pre-made character with more of a focus on leveling/skilling and doing quests and killing monsters. Cause why the heck does it matter how my character looks in a singleplayer game? It doesn't change the game at all.
Its exactly like designing space ships in 4x games, but even more waste of a time because making a character skinny, taller or whatever doesn't even change the game at all lol.
Post by: Kot on August 11, 2015, 09:14:25 pm
WitcherEh, despite being a pretty cool guy all-around, Geralt doesn't have tits.
Post by: a1s on August 11, 2015, 09:15:44 pm
Its also like games designing your characters looks. Why bother doing that in a singleplayer RPG? Why do so many games waste effort on letting someone design their character?Well, games in general are "to waste time and create an illusion". Clearly someone enjoys it (maybe they enjoy it enough to pickpocket someone and take their place in the Skyrim focus group meeting)
In an MMO maybe yeah.
But like Skyrim? Does changing my height make me stronger/faster/slower or anything? Nope. Its just to waste time and create an illusion of difference.
More RPGs would do far better like in Witcher 3, a pre-made character with more of a focus on leveling/skilling and doing quests and killing monsters. Cause why the heck does it matter how my character looks in a singleplayer game? It doesn't change the game at all.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on August 11, 2015, 09:21:47 pm
Not to instigate a debate in the Stellaris thread, but i'd like to point out that the English won their famous battles during the hundred years war mostly because the french were fucking terrible in their grasp of tactics. Mostly, their hubris blinded them to the possibility that a strong defensive position could take away the advantage provided by heavy cavalry.I have 2 word for you: Agincourt.Except bows don't always beat clubs unless the game is simplified a lot. I mean unless Firaxis made it.
Against heavy armor, I'd actually much prefer a big-ass club
I'd also like to relate this back to the current discussion about being able to design your own ships and say that nothing is better when it all comes together and through struggle your well-equipped, masterfully designed, small, elite force defeats a cartoonishly evil armada of darkness and all the while knowing it was all the strategic decisions that gave you the chance to win an awe-inspiring tactical victory.
Post by: Shadowlord on August 11, 2015, 10:16:22 pm
Hey, that was more utter incompetence against bows. I think clubs or even rocks would have been enough.I have 2 word for you: Agincourt.Except bows don't always beat clubs unless the game is simplified a lot. I mean unless Firaxis made it.
Against heavy armor, I'd actually much prefer a big-ass club
Also, the thing about unit design, is that it's just another mechanic for min maxing.
Either it doesn't matter, and in this case, why add it ?
Either it is important, and force you to min-max to get good units (or good counters, but that's often rock-paper-scissor style).
Imo, it just doesn't add anything to a grand strategy game. Most 4x games would be better without it.
Reading through the wikipedia article on Agincourt again to refresh my memory, it sounds like just utter incompetence in general for the French at Agincourt.
I think it's possible to make unit design that doesn't have to be just min-maxing, as long as it'll interact with your opponents' designs. Most games seem to reduce this to rock-paper-scissors, though.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on August 11, 2015, 10:27:32 pm
I think it's possible to make unit design that doesn't have to be just min-maxing, as long as it'll interact with your opponents' designs. Most games seem to reduce this to rock-paper-scissors, though.
Personally, I've always found that the game that did it best was the original Star Ruler. There was such a sense of scope and wild possibilities that you could viably build a slew of wildly different ships, and if they weren't up to snuff you built new ones. The best part was that even obsolete ships could hold off newer ones for a time while you built a new fleet, so you'd have these massive fleets engaging in pitched combat while you desperately pumped out newer ships to avoid annihilation. It reminded me of Halo and Foundation.
Post by: Mephansteras on August 11, 2015, 10:31:26 pm
Its also like games designing your characters looks. Why bother doing that in a singleplayer RPG? Why do so many games waste effort on letting someone design their character?
In an MMO maybe yeah.
But like Skyrim? Does changing my height make me stronger/faster/slower or anything? Nope. Its just to waste time and create an illusion of difference.
More RPGs would do far better like in Witcher 3, a pre-made character with more of a focus on leveling/skilling and doing quests and killing monsters. Cause why the heck does it matter how my character looks in a singleplayer game? It doesn't change the game at all.
Its exactly like designing space ships in 4x games, but even more waste of a time because making a character skinny, taller or whatever doesn't even change the game at all lol.
Quite simply because there is demand for it. A lot of players like that customization and I know several people who will pass on games that don't have it. It may not add anything to you, but it adds stuff to other people.
In many ways it is much like customizing how soldiers look in X-COM. It may not change anything at a tactical level, but it helps people connect with the game better.
Post by: scriver on August 12, 2015, 01:43:37 am
Its also like games designing your characters looks. Why bother doing that in a singleplayer RPG? Why do so many games waste effort on letting someone design their character?
In an MMO maybe yeah.
But like Skyrim? Does changing my height make me stronger/faster/slower or anything? Nope. Its just to waste time and create an illusion of difference.
More RPGs would do far better like in Witcher 3, a pre-made character with more of a focus on leveling/skilling and doing quests and killing monsters. Cause why the heck does it matter how my character looks in a singleplayer game? It doesn't change the game at all.
Its exactly like designing space ships in 4x games, but even more waste of a time because making a character skinny, taller or whatever doesn't even change the game at all lol.
Quite simply because there is demand for it. A lot of players like that customization and I know several people who will pass on games that don't have it. It may not add anything to you, but it adds stuff to other people.
In many ways it is much like customizing how soldiers look in X-COM. It may not change anything at a tactical level, but it helps people connect with the game better.
This. So much. That it even needs to be explained is sad.
Post by: PanH on August 12, 2015, 10:15:44 am
Post by: Zangi on August 12, 2015, 10:30:46 am
The issue I have is that most of the time, it actually changes something at the tactical level. In a strategy game. It is akin to choosing equipment for XCOM soldiers but not for 6 o 12 soldiers, but for a fleet. When you can have hundreds of ships, it's nonsensical. Adding more micromanagement in a game is not always good, when it can be simplified by fleet design or science research (and not unit design).You probably mean 100s different of ship designs.
As long as default designs and the meta associated with ship parts are not horribly imbalanced to begin with? But that might be too much to ask for...
Post by: Sergarr on August 12, 2015, 10:35:14 am
As long as default designs and the meta associated with ship parts are not horribly imbalanced to begin with? But that might be too much to ask for...The default designs will always be complete trash in comparison with properly min-maxed builds, duh. It's how it was in every single game with unit builder so far, and I don't see why it would change now.
Post by: Mephansteras on August 12, 2015, 11:56:22 am
Post by: Shadowlord on August 12, 2015, 12:13:47 pm
Post by: a1s on August 12, 2015, 12:36:50 pm
Yeah, that part of it worked pretty well. The moo2 designs were mostly optimization / min-maxing, though, aside from special designs (e.g. Boarding or endgame time hijinks, etc) you could make, and yet the AI did not understand how to design ships at all.Honestly, the AI doesn't need to design ships, just have a few min-maxed designs (based on which tech you have bnonuses for/are ahead in) on file and have the races build those. Simples.
(a more exciting (from a geek point of view), but less practical (from a normal person POV) way to do this is generate ship designs by genetic algorithm with semi-randomized bonuses. This allows you to have dozens and hundreds of highly optimized designs for little extra cost. And quickly regenerate the data-set after a new patch comes out and "ruins the game." [this is Paradox we're talking about] )
Post by: Shadowlord on August 12, 2015, 01:54:47 pm
Post by: Wiles on August 21, 2015, 01:10:09 pm
There's not a lot of new info, but it goes more in depth about some features we've already heard about. The character system sounds like it could be pretty interesting.
Post by: mainiac on August 21, 2015, 02:35:55 pm
Not to instigate a debate in the Stellaris thread, but i'd like to point out that the English won their famous battles during the hundred years war mostly because the french were fucking terrible in their grasp of tactics.
There's also the thing where French defeats were surprising and thus talked about and remembered whereas there aren't even wikipedia articles for the steady stream of French victories in Aquitaine which systematically wore down the English with boring but effective sieges.
Post by: umiman on August 21, 2015, 03:49:41 pm
Impressive considering their neighbours throughout the ages.
Post by: Culise on August 21, 2015, 08:29:34 pm
There's an interesting article about Stellaris over at PCGamer (http://www.pcgamer.com/stellaris-how-paradox-plan-to-make-an-infinite-grand-strategy/#page-1).Indeed. It sounds a lot like CK2.
There's not a lot of new info, but it goes more in depth about some features we've already heard about. The character system sounds like it could be pretty interesting.
Post by: BFEL on August 21, 2015, 09:12:48 pm
There's an interesting article about Stellaris over at PCGamer (http://www.pcgamer.com/stellaris-how-paradox-plan-to-make-an-infinite-grand-strategy/#page-1).Indeed. It sounds a lot like CK2.
There's not a lot of new info, but it goes more in depth about some features we've already heard about. The character system sounds like it could be pretty interesting.
Lets all give Culise a BIG ROUND OF APPLAUSE for DISCOVERING THE POINT!
YAAAAY WOOO YEAH CULISE!!!
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on August 21, 2015, 10:25:16 pm
Post by: Culise on August 21, 2015, 11:01:52 pm
Why, thank you. I accept your abuse of capitalization in the spirit of your generosity and sincerity.There's an interesting article about Stellaris over at PCGamer (http://www.pcgamer.com/stellaris-how-paradox-plan-to-make-an-infinite-grand-strategy/#page-1).Indeed. It sounds a lot like CK2.
There's not a lot of new info, but it goes more in depth about some features we've already heard about. The character system sounds like it could be pretty interesting.
Lets all give Culise a BIG ROUND OF APPLAUSE for DISCOVERING THE POINT!
YAAAAY WOOO YEAH CULISE!!!
In either case, it sounds eminently preferable to a simple HOI3 in space, which is the other major Paradox game that was developed by this particular lead as I recall. As well, there are plenty of character systems in strategy games that are not CK2; Koei's ROTK and NA games both come to mind right off the top of my head, due to the pleasant upcoming circumstances regarding NA14. Simply having a character-based system didn't really mean as much; it could have been an expansion on ministers and tech teams from HOI2, for instance. Confirmation of trait-based character systems is useful to know.
Post by: Wiles on August 22, 2015, 07:37:10 am
It's sounding like a mash up of CKII (characters, story driven events), EUIV (diplomacy) and VictoriaII (pops).
Post by: Karnewarrior on August 22, 2015, 09:09:28 am
I'd have started with a Grand strategy game that only took place in the solar system though, or maybe the local stellar cluster. Considering it takes years to reach our nearest neighbor even /with/ a magical inertia-free engine.
It'd be cool to see the politics happening on earth with the addition of some small Martian mining outposts, trade ships scraping the asteroid belt and Kuiper belt for raw resources to be returned to the Earth/moon for machining, then a route to phobos or demios to construct new ships, or some other relatively large asteroid "harbor"
Just because there's little room for proper colonies doesn't mean that people won't go there. Australia is a thing, after all.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on August 22, 2015, 10:46:16 am
Post by: sambojin on August 22, 2015, 05:49:49 pm
Post by: Culise on August 22, 2015, 05:57:00 pm
Ok, Australia's not THAT untamable.If nothing else, at least it had food, drink, and air. That's a whole three things that make it more amenable than the Moon. :P
Post by: Puzzlemaker on August 22, 2015, 06:13:36 pm
Ok, Australia's not THAT untamable.If nothing else, at least it had food, drink, and air. That's a whole three things that make it more amenable than the Moon. :P
Eh, water only in a select few places, except during certain times of year. It's pretty bad outside the coast. 'Course, I haven't ever been there, so I am speaking out of my ass.
Post by: Shadowlord on August 22, 2015, 08:18:57 pm
Post by: Persus13 on August 22, 2015, 10:01:27 pm
Post by: Kot on August 23, 2015, 01:17:09 am
Post by: mainiac on August 23, 2015, 10:46:33 am
Ok, Australia's not THAT untamable.If nothing else, at least it had food, drink, and air. That's a whole three things that make it more amenable than the Moon. :P
Humanity would build a city in the middle of a radioactive desert if there was a profitable industry that justified the investment. Habitability alone doesn't tell you enough.
Post by: GundamMerc on August 23, 2015, 12:46:36 pm
On the other hand if you colonize Madagascar you got the most resilient place in the world when it comes to plagues.
Dat Plague Inc. reference dere.
In all seriousness, I'm really looking forward to this as it would be a good setting for mods that you couldn't do in HOI 3, like a One-Year War (Gundam) mod.
Post by: BFEL on August 23, 2015, 07:47:03 pm
HURGOn the other hand if you colonize Madagascar you got the most resilient place in the world when it comes to plagues.
Dat Plague Inc. reference dere.
IT WAS FROM PANDEMIC YOU GIT!
Post by: a1s on August 23, 2015, 07:57:03 pm
In all seriousness, I'm really looking forward to this as it would be a good setting for mods that you couldn't do in HOI 3, like a One-Year War (Gundam) mod.I thought HOI was doing well for mods? Or do you mean "You can't do space battles in HOI 3"? (I really have no idea if that's true, there's a space mod for CKII, so why not HOI3?)
Post by: GundamMerc on August 24, 2015, 02:55:09 am
HURGOn the other hand if you colonize Madagascar you got the most resilient place in the world when it comes to plagues.
Dat Plague Inc. reference dere.
IT WAS FROM PANDEMIC YOU GIT!
They're both the same game.
Post by: GundamMerc on August 24, 2015, 02:58:26 am
In all seriousness, I'm really looking forward to this as it would be a good setting for mods that you couldn't do in HOI 3, like a One-Year War (Gundam) mod.I thought HOI was doing well for mods? Or do you mean "You can't do space battles in HOI 3"? (I really have no idea if that's true, there's a space mod for CKII, so why not HOI3?)
The issue was more to do with the One Year War had both a planetary theater of war and a space theater of war. You can do one of either, but it is really hard to do both.
Post by: RedKing on August 24, 2015, 09:29:15 am
Are we talking this Pandemic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemic_%28board_game%29)? Because then no, not by a long shot.HURGOn the other hand if you colonize Madagascar you got the most resilient place in the world when it comes to plagues.
Dat Plague Inc. reference dere.
IT WAS FROM PANDEMIC YOU GIT!
They're both the same game.
I'm jazzed. Even if this turns out to be Crusader Kings in Space, that alone is a good thing. I'm hoping somebody does a HOI3->Stellaris converter. :P
Post by: Culise on August 24, 2015, 10:30:00 am
Pandemic the online flash game. I don't think it has any direct relation to the board game Pandemic; you play it the other way around, as the virus taking over the world.Are we talking this Pandemic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemic_%28board_game%29)? Because then no, not by a long shot.HURGOn the other hand if you colonize Madagascar you got the most resilient place in the world when it comes to plagues.
Dat Plague Inc. reference dere.
IT WAS FROM PANDEMIC YOU GIT!
They're both the same game.
EDIT: I think this (http://pandemic3.org/) is where you can find it now. Sorry, it's been a few years for me, and I didn't pick up Plague, Inc. yet.
Post by: Shadowlord on August 24, 2015, 12:17:29 pm
Post by: Kot on August 25, 2015, 12:20:20 am
Except that Plague Inc. Madagascar is nothing compared to Pandemic Madagascar, it's just not that big thing anymore, the other places are worse. The reference lost it's strength.
Post by: Besserwisser on August 25, 2015, 05:22:25 am
PTW.
Post by: PanH on August 25, 2015, 07:44:23 am
I indeed confirm that I played Pandemic first, though I played Plague Inc.Yeah, Iceland is worse than Madagascar in Plague Inc. Pandemic Madagascar is awful. Honestly, the only game I ever won with it was one where I started in Madagascar.
Except that Plague Inc. Madagascar is nothing compared to Pandemic Madagascar, it's just not that big thing anymore, the other places are worse. The reference lost it's strength.
Post by: BFEL on August 25, 2015, 10:51:59 am
Haven't won a game since :P
Post by: GundamMerc on August 25, 2015, 02:17:41 pm
I won my very first game of Pandemic, I don't think I started in Madagascar, I just got lucky enough to spread there before President Madagascar noticed someone coughing on the fucking moon.
Haven't won a game since :P
Pandemic went beyond challenging and into the realm of artificial difficulty. That's why I prefer Plague Inc. It's more balanced.
Post by: BFEL on August 26, 2015, 06:03:33 am
Post by: Majestic7 on August 26, 2015, 06:19:06 am
It is like dating a girl who is malicious idiot, but just so goddamn hot you can't help yourself.
Post by: Toaster on August 26, 2015, 10:53:14 am
I'm unreasonably hyped about this, considering how badly all awesome-on-paper 4X have failed in the past. Knowing Paradox, this will be buggy as hell on release and require ten DLCs to rise to its full potential. Plus the most awesome content will be provided by modders. I still want to preorder it though.
It is like dating a girl who is malicious idiot, but just so goddamn hot you can't help yourself.
To be fair, CK2 wasn't as buggy as some others when it first came out. Maybe they're learning a bit; this is also a new IP so first impressions matter harder.
Post by: Retropunch on August 26, 2015, 11:57:23 am
I can imagine all the basic stuff will be in, but I could easily seem them partitioning off the more ambitious plans for the future. I definitely feel like this might be one of those things that eventually grows into something incredible, but starts off a bit lacklustre.
Still, if we get anything like what's promised it'll be fantastic.
Post by: Zangi on August 26, 2015, 01:26:54 pm
I'm not gonna bother coming in when it 1st comes out. Maybe after the 3rd or 4th DLC. Then come back again much later at another DLC point. Plenty of time for mods to get established by then I reckon.
CK2 released around Feb 2012... 11 DLC+misc. About 1 release every 3-4 months.
Post by: BFEL on August 26, 2015, 03:12:57 pm
Post by: umiman on August 26, 2015, 03:42:17 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on August 26, 2015, 03:50:51 pm
PTW, certainly.I'm unreasonably hyped about this, considering how badly all awesome-on-paper 4X have failed in the past. Knowing Paradox, this will be buggy as hell on release and require ten DLCs to rise to its full potential. Plus the most awesome content will be provided by modders. I still want to preorder it though.
It is like dating a girl who is malicious idiot, but just so goddamn hot you can't help yourself.
To be fair, CK2 wasn't as buggy as some others when it first came out. Maybe they're learning a bit; this is also a new IP so first impressions matter harder.
CK2 wasn't buggy because suckers like me paid to play the prototype AKA Sengoku. Which was promptly abandoned once Paradox got all the info they needed out of it.
To be fair, Sengoku was stable when they left it, just shallow.
...Plus, I probably paid more for Sengoku than I paid for CK2 + three or so game DLCs (and hosts of
Post by: Retropunch on August 26, 2015, 10:47:41 pm
However, History is great for DLC - you can just add more countries and a few new mechanics and you've got yourself a DLC. Space is a bit more difficult - especially as they're procedurally generating races. They'll have to introduce proper new mechanics/big changes to be worth while buying, and I can see them getting a hell of a lot of flak if they just put them out as glorified patches which should have been in launch (especially if those mechanics were in CKII).
It's definitely not going to be a day one, but I do have high hopes - Paradox tends to realise what will piss people off a bit better than most, so I live in hopes that they'll do this well.
Post by: Rakonas on August 27, 2015, 02:14:00 am
Post by: Kot on August 27, 2015, 02:20:15 am
They need to do a HoI4->Stellaris converter, where you have to have done a WC before converting.Yes. This.
I'll prove the whole world that Poland CAN INTO SPACE!
Post by: Majestic7 on August 27, 2015, 02:23:09 am
They need to do a HoI4->Stellaris converter, where you have to have done a WC before converting.
Space Hitler? You want to play Space Hitler, dontcha?
Post by: Rakonas on August 27, 2015, 02:47:57 am
They need to do a HoI4->Stellaris converter, where you have to have done a WC before converting.
Space Hitler? You want to play Space Hitler, dontcha?
More like FULLSPACECOMMUNISM
Post by: BFEL on August 27, 2015, 10:14:55 am
That doesn't seem wise. I love Paradox grand strategy but they tend to have issues with launches...Perhaps, but Paradox is one of the few remaining devs I full on TRUST to not dick me over, and I bought into a few early access games so I don't really have much of an issue with waiting for it to build up steam if necessary, plus if other comments are any indication then Paradox stuff will become awesome far quicker then stuff like Kenshi that I'm still waiting to have in a playable state :P
Post by: sambojin on August 27, 2015, 04:37:45 pm
Fortunately they tend to make games that you'll actually enjoy playing in a year or two's time anyway. Which is pretty rare in of itself.
So whether you adopt it early, or jump in late, at least you know it's a worthwhile purchase either way.
It's a weird business model, but one I have a surprising amount of faith in. Not sure if I'll preorder, but after their 2nd or 3rd kickstarter (sorry, DLC), I definitely will. Might jump on this from the get-go though. They actually tend to respond to criticism quite well, and I haven't whinged usefully for a while :)
Post by: Aklyon on August 27, 2015, 06:31:02 pm
But if poland can into space, we'll end up running into space kebab eventually too.They need to do a HoI4->Stellaris converter, where you have to have done a WC before converting.Yes. This.
I'll prove the whole world that Poland CAN INTO SPACE!
Post by: RedKing on August 27, 2015, 06:33:09 pm
WITH NUKES
Post by: BFEL on August 27, 2015, 09:45:44 pm
REMOVE SPACE KEBAB
WITH GENETICALLY ENGINEERED SENTIENT NUKES
Post by: Retropunch on August 28, 2015, 02:21:04 am
Yeah. You just have to realize that their stuff is sort of in open alpha/beta state for the first year or two. But they usually get there in the end.
Fortunately they tend to make games that you'll actually enjoy playing in a year or two's time anyway. Which is pretty rare in of itself.
So whether you adopt it early, or jump in late, at least you know it's a worthwhile purchase either way.
It's a weird business model, but one I have a surprising amount of faith in. Not sure if I'll preorder, but after their 2nd or 3rd kickstarter (sorry, DLC), I definitely will. Might jump on this from the get-go though. They actually tend to respond to criticism quite well, and I haven't whinged usefully for a while :)
Yeah that was one of my only main thoughts for buying in early. They seem to take input well and it'd be good to at least nudge them about some issues (if they crop up). As you say, they're one fo the few producers that make games I know I'll keep playing. My only fear is a GalCvi3 scenario where they miss out/don't manage some important mechanics and leave them for DLC/expansions. It seems pretty ambitious and I can just imagine a sort of 'oh we're putting espionage in later!' type thing which could sink it before it takes off.
Post by: MrWiggles on August 31, 2015, 05:56:22 am
Post by: a1s on August 31, 2015, 06:36:36 am
It seems pretty ambitious and I can just imagine a sort of 'oh we're putting espionage in later!' type thing which could sink it before it takes off.They did that exact thing with HOI2, and the franchise is still kicking. I think it's not so much about what they take out, as what they leave- it there's not enough "interesting choices" to be made in vanilla, it will fail.
Post by: GundamMerc on August 31, 2015, 08:47:08 am
I dont want my nukes to feel pain. They may not want to detonate. I also would not want them to be sapient. Else wise we'd get the Dark Star problem.
Well, unless they have the same issue as http://rickandmorty.wikia.com/wiki/Mr._Meeseeks (http://rickandmorty.wikia.com/wiki/Mr._Meeseeks), then they'll want to go off as soon as possible. :3
Post by: a1s on August 31, 2015, 11:56:02 am
So did the bomb in Dark Star. The problem they had was that it was tired of false alarms (and that the mechanism for pushing it out was broken,) not that it was scared. We know it wanted to blow up, because it did.I dont want my nukes to feel pain. They may not want to detonate. I also would not want them to be sapient. Else wise we'd get the Dark Star problem.
Well, unless they have the same issue as http://rickandmorty.wikia.com/wiki/Mr._Meeseeks (http://rickandmorty.wikia.com/wiki/Mr._Meeseeks), then they'll want to go off as soon as possible. :3
Post by: Icefire2314 on September 12, 2015, 12:46:53 am
Post by: redwallzyl on September 22, 2015, 10:20:51 pm
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-1-the-vision.882808/
Post by: ollobrains on September 23, 2015, 12:12:18 am
Post by: Majestic7 on September 23, 2015, 12:25:12 am
I kind of think I will preorder this bad boy despite knowing Paradox games are very unstable at launch. I just kind of want it to succeed in a spectacular fashion so it gets support at least equal to CK2 down the line.
Post by: Jopax on September 23, 2015, 02:14:01 am
you know they have a working beta when the dev diaries start i give it 4 months from today till they put it out on sale.
Not necessarily, look at HoI4, they've had dev diaries for a long time now, maybe even a year I think and they've pushed the release back at least two times already. I think they really don't want crappy launches anymore.
Post by: Sindain on September 23, 2015, 11:02:44 am
Post by: ollobrains on September 23, 2015, 07:23:34 pm
Post by: Teneb on September 30, 2015, 08:30:52 pm
Post by: Aklyon on September 30, 2015, 09:30:11 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on September 30, 2015, 10:39:28 pm
Quote
Another artistic decision that deeply affected the visuals of the ship designs was the choice of having visible turrets on the ship. Since we want them to be visible to the player if they are zoomed out a bit, they also have to be a fairly large, and mainly placed on the top of the ship. The turrets aim towards their target and gives a satisfying broadside at times.
Okay, I'm sold. Space Battleship Yamato mod when?
Honestly though, this, I think, will end up being a proud addition to my 4X library.
Post by: a1s on October 01, 2015, 11:08:22 am
Yarr. And early space ships should use solar sails.QuoteAnother artistic decision that deeply affected the visuals of the ship designs was the choice of having visible turrets on the ship. Since we want them to be visible to the player if they are zoomed out a bit, they also have to be a fairly large, and mainly placed on the top of the ship. The turrets aim towards their target and gives a satisfying broadside at times.Honestly though, this, I think, will end up being a proud addition to my 4X library.
Now we just need stealth ships that rise out of deep space to shoot torpedoes at you, and I'll be satisfied.
(You can take ships out of the sea, but you can't take the sea out to space. Alright, I'm done, honest.)
Post by: LoSboccacc on October 04, 2015, 09:31:38 am
Quote
manly placed on the top of the ship
ftfy
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: BFEL on October 04, 2015, 11:09:47 am
Post by: Majestic7 on October 04, 2015, 11:22:33 am
Agh, all this Stellaris talk has made me hungry for 4X. Been playing Distant Worlds, but somehow I'm a bit bored of it. Makes me considering installing Sword of the Stars II, a shame it was never finished. I mean, it is playable as a space war simulator, but the lack of functioning diplomacy and so forth makes it somewhat annoying.
Post by: umiman on October 04, 2015, 01:28:44 pm
Post by: Retropunch on October 04, 2015, 04:41:31 pm
Conversely, did anyone see the TERRIBLE trailer for MOO3!? looks seriously awful, and whatever they were trying with the robots missed the mark by quite a stretch.
Post by: MrWiggles on October 04, 2015, 04:47:49 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on October 04, 2015, 05:12:47 pm
Post by: Culise on October 05, 2015, 10:22:12 am
I'll just write that off right now then...That's essentially my own reaction. But, if you buy the collector's edition, you can get a special rare species: Terrans.
...
Yeah, I know Humans are in the base game. Still, that was a bit of a rude shock to me when I checked in on their website and saw that. :P
At any rate, back to the main topic: ooh, pretty (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-3-galaxy-generation.885267/).
Spoiler: Dev Diary 3: Galaxy Generation (click to show/hide)
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 09, 2015, 02:02:24 pm
Post by: RedKing on October 09, 2015, 02:12:59 pm
Post by: Teneb on October 09, 2015, 02:26:49 pm
Hmm, that indicates they plan on different races having different locomotion mechanics, something I thought was brilliant about SotS.They already stated there will be three forms of travel that you can pick at the start (and gets randomized for the AI): "lanes" like SotS Humans, No FTL but can build teleporters like SotS Hivers and Warhammer 40k style Warp travel (including dangers like the "natives" deciding to attack you and such), IIRC.
Post by: sebcool on October 11, 2015, 01:54:26 pm
Hmm, that indicates they plan on different races having different locomotion mechanics, something I thought was brilliant about SotS.They already stated there will be three forms of travel that you can pick at the start (and gets randomized for the AI): "lanes" like SotS Humans, No FTL but can build teleporters like SotS Hivers and Warhammer 40k style Warp travel (including dangers like the "natives" deciding to attack you and such), IIRC.
There has to be a 40k mod for this game.
Post by: Kot on October 11, 2015, 02:12:22 pm
There surely will be one.Hmm, that indicates they plan on different races having different locomotion mechanics, something I thought was brilliant about SotS.They already stated there will be three forms of travel that you can pick at the start (and gets randomized for the AI): "lanes" like SotS Humans, No FTL but can build teleporters like SotS Hivers and Warhammer 40k style Warp travel (including dangers like the "natives" deciding to attack you and such), IIRC.
There has to be a 40k mod for this game.
It will be fucking amazing proably.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on October 11, 2015, 03:10:58 pm
There surely will be one.Hmm, that indicates they plan on different races having different locomotion mechanics, something I thought was brilliant about SotS.They already stated there will be three forms of travel that you can pick at the start (and gets randomized for the AI): "lanes" like SotS Humans, No FTL but can build teleporters like SotS Hivers and Warhammer 40k style Warp travel (including dangers like the "natives" deciding to attack you and such), IIRC.
There has to be a 40k mod for this game.
It will be fucking amazing proably.
... H-heresy?
Post by: Aklyon on October 11, 2015, 03:27:07 pm
The hereticalness has yet to be determined.There surely will be one.Hmm, that indicates they plan on different races having different locomotion mechanics, something I thought was brilliant about SotS.They already stated there will be three forms of travel that you can pick at the start (and gets randomized for the AI): "lanes" like SotS Humans, No FTL but can build teleporters like SotS Hivers and Warhammer 40k style Warp travel (including dangers like the "natives" deciding to attack you and such), IIRC.
There has to be a 40k mod for this game.
It will be fucking amazing proably.
... H-heresy?
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 11, 2015, 04:01:15 pm
Woah woah, stick to the law brother. Everyone is a heretic in the eyes of the Emperor until proven otherwise.The hereticalness has yet to be determined.There surely will be one.Hmm, that indicates they plan on different races having different locomotion mechanics, something I thought was brilliant about SotS.They already stated there will be three forms of travel that you can pick at the start (and gets randomized for the AI): "lanes" like SotS Humans, No FTL but can build teleporters like SotS Hivers and Warhammer 40k style Warp travel (including dangers like the "natives" deciding to attack you and such), IIRC.
There has to be a 40k mod for this game.
It will be fucking amazing proably.
... H-heresy?
Post by: Kot on October 11, 2015, 04:17:40 pm
It's hard to dispatch Inquisitorial investiagion teams to something that doesn't exist yet... not that it stopped Inqisitors from before, but eh, right now Ordo Chronos Inquisitors are all too busy killing some sentient salt-shakers that are hell-bent on genocide.Woah woah, stick to the law brother. Everyone is a heretic in the eyes of the Emperor until proven otherwise.The hereticalness has yet to be determined.There surely will be one.Hmm, that indicates they plan on different races having different locomotion mechanics, something I thought was brilliant about SotS.They already stated there will be three forms of travel that you can pick at the start (and gets randomized for the AI): "lanes" like SotS Humans, No FTL but can build teleporters like SotS Hivers and Warhammer 40k style Warp travel (including dangers like the "natives" deciding to attack you and such), IIRC.
There has to be a 40k mod for this game.
It will be fucking amazing proably.
... H-heresy?
Post by: Aklyon on October 11, 2015, 04:26:26 pm
Would those be better or worse than whatever they were killing before?It's hard to dispatch Inquisitorial investiagion teams to something that doesn't exist yet... not that it stopped Inqisitors from before, but eh, right now Ordo Chronos Inquisitors are all too busy killing some sentient salt-shakers that are hell-bent on genocide.Woah woah, stick to the law brother. Everyone is a heretic in the eyes of the Emperor until proven otherwise.The hereticalness has yet to be determined.There surely will be one.Hmm, that indicates they plan on different races having different locomotion mechanics, something I thought was brilliant about SotS.They already stated there will be three forms of travel that you can pick at the start (and gets randomized for the AI): "lanes" like SotS Humans, No FTL but can build teleporters like SotS Hivers and Warhammer 40k style Warp travel (including dangers like the "natives" deciding to attack you and such), IIRC.
There has to be a 40k mod for this game.
It will be fucking amazing proably.
... H-heresy?
Post by: Persus13 on October 11, 2015, 04:46:15 pm
Post by: Aklyon on October 11, 2015, 04:47:51 pm
Post by: Persus13 on October 11, 2015, 04:59:28 pm
Post by: Teneb on October 11, 2015, 08:32:30 pm
Post by: Azazass on October 11, 2015, 09:00:06 pm
Yeah, the forum doesn't like when we get pyramids going. Clearly a sign of alien interference... or something.
Yeah! A sign of HERESY! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=RZg1c3BAjbk)
But back on the topic.
I am more interested in the governing mechanics once you have your empire/dominion/hive/democracy (Bah! Filthy peasants they think they can choose their leaders!) going on.
Will we get a Vicky 2 mechanic? A EU4? CK2? HOI3? Perhaps a mix of all? Something entirely different?
Because for me, combat, exploration and governing mechanics are what matters the most in a 4x game.
I mean, it's nice that I can design my ship, SoTS, or that I can build and fight with a massive armada, SoaSE but governing my empire feels... bland.
The empire mechanics in DW are great if somewhat a bit daunting for a new player.
One of the goods things about Endless Space is that empire management actually matters.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on October 11, 2015, 11:16:37 pm
EDIT: I am worried in extremis that they will somehow simplify mechanics, which is the ultimate bane of my existence. This game better be a complicated mix of HOI, CKII, and Vicky.
Post by: Majestic7 on October 12, 2015, 01:43:40 am
This kind of actual effect to the way you play would be nice to see in Stellaris as well.
Post by: Azazass on October 12, 2015, 01:03:23 pm
SPESS TRAVELS (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-4-means-of-travel.886502/)
This DD shows three methods:
Warp Drive, akin to Star Trek and Warhammer 40K (may or may not contain Daemons, science is required for that), mechanics seems similar to the ones in SoaSE, but without the constrains of moving between predetermined lines, you have freedom of movement albeit slow.
Wormholes, a series of gates, in this case space stations, to connect your empire, allow you to strike anywhere but leaves your forces stranded if there is an attack on the network/gate and it takes time to create the wormhole, the larger your fleet the longer in takes.
Hyperdrive, like Star Wars, using hyperlanes to move, these are a prexisting network of lanes, it's fast but prone to ambush once the enemy figures where are you coming from, also creates strategic level chokepoints.
Post by: Rolan7 on October 12, 2015, 01:20:47 pm
Sounds hard to balance, but sounds like they have methods... I'm sure the station is expensive, and the charge time could be quite long. So, excellent if you plan ahead perfectly, but not great for responding to new situations.
Also, it says the wormholes are brief but two-way. I wonder if that means an enemy fleet may counterattack through, if you're exceedingly unlucky.
Gotta love that teaser about potential consequences of FTL, heh.
Edit: I haven't played Sword of the Stars, which of course is a great study in alternate FTL modes like this. But I did play Space Empires 5, which had stable wormholes (basically spacelanes). Late-game technology could create or even destroy those wormholes, and it was optionally possible to generate galaxies where systems started disconnected. I wonder if Stellaris will allow modifying the hyperdrive lanes, probably as a capstone. Maybe after dealing with the "potential consequences" of warping physics.
Post by: BFEL on October 12, 2015, 01:34:55 pm
Post by: Aklyon on October 12, 2015, 01:45:06 pm
Edit: I haven't played Sword of the Stars, which of course is a great study in alternate FTL modes like this. But I did play Space Empires 5, which had stable wormholes (basically spacelanes). Late-game technology could create or even destroy those wormholes, and it was optionally possible to generate galaxies where systems started disconnected. I wonder if Stellaris will allow modifying the hyperdrive lanes, probably as a capstone. Maybe after dealing with the "potential consequences" of warping physics.The Zuul basically used the same hyperdrive system as the human, just...more directly. As in, they didn't use the lanes, they tore great big interstellar holes to build their own lanes. Their own unstable lanes which took forever to do because the ship that did the tearing was slow.
Post by: Shadowlord on October 12, 2015, 03:14:34 pm
Post by: Catastrophic lolcats on October 12, 2015, 06:44:14 pm
One thing that might be worth noting about Warp is there could be possibility of rushing out-of-the-way anomalies before the other factions can focus their FTL.
Might allow you to advance your civ much quicker which might make Warp's inherent slowness less of a down side
Post by: Jopax on October 12, 2015, 06:48:04 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on October 12, 2015, 06:58:26 pm
Plus, if your fleet is in a system where you don't have a station, it takes like twice as long: First you have to open a wormhole to your fleet with your station, then that station has to open up another wormhole to the real destination.
On the other hand, deep-strike fleet with no warning.
Post by: Teneb on October 12, 2015, 07:17:11 pm
Don't you mean defensive? Because wormholes seem to require setup, much like Hivers of SOTS. A turtling FTL if you will, it takes time to spread and take hold but once it does the only way to take territory back is to go at it in several systems so it has to split up the fleet.Not from what they said. What I got from it is that, unlike SOTS, you don't need a station at the destination. So you could strike deep into enemy territory. The wormwhole is also two-way, but it evaporates as soon as whatever you sent is through so you'd need to be pretty fast to use it in reverse. It's also not as defensive as the Hiver teleport because it apparently has a "warm-up" time and can only target a single destination at a time. And, of course, whatever you sent is going to have some problems retreating if things go bad.
Post by: Jopax on October 12, 2015, 07:18:27 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on October 12, 2015, 07:51:45 pm
Post by: sambojin on October 12, 2015, 09:29:42 pm
Will it be worth keeping a couple of "ace-in-the-hole" hyperspace lanes unused until you're ready to hit them (or split their fleets/strike unopposed), so warpers and wormers never actually know that you can strike from that direction in force until it's too late?
Post by: Jopax on October 12, 2015, 09:58:39 pm
Post by: Astral on October 12, 2015, 10:14:42 pm
The other options are:
Hyperdrive (cut and dry, one time point to point travel, but relatively cheap and slow in terms of FTL speed, requires a charge time)
Slipstream (tears a temporary hole between two points, like a temporary Gate, but anyone can use it, nearly instant travel and allows for return travel)
Fling Beacons (basically a structure built version of Hyperdrive, but you have to slowboat back if you don't build another in the system you target... it can also throw orbital structures like space stations or other beacons, or even planets)
Skip Drives (an artifact bonus that can later be researched, allows for instant transportation that requires Energy instead of FTL power, only really useful for jumping around inside a system)
From what I'm seeing of this game so far, I think it'll be right up my alley, though.
Post by: Rolan7 on October 12, 2015, 10:18:26 pm
Gameplay before realism though. Having a single wormhole station would probably provide most of the benefit of delayed deep-striking. Though it might have limited range and capacity, without the proper tech and/or racial affinity.
Post by: BFEL on October 12, 2015, 10:21:43 pm
Sounds a lot like Star Ruler 2's methods of FTL travel. I'm particularly fond of Gates, which while they decrease your FTL energy generation per Gate made, allow for instantaneous travel between any that are built, and they also cut down on labor costs based on distance, allowing for a slow moving, but ever extending empire that can react at the drop of a hat.
The problem I had with the Gates though is that they're just SOOOO expensive in a game where money pretty much decides your maximum everything.
Fling Beacons (basically a structure built version of Hyperdrive, but you have to slowboat back if you don't build another in the system you target... it can also throw orbital structures like space stations or other beacons, or even planets)
O.O
I did not know about the planetthrow
Post by: Ghazkull on October 13, 2015, 05:31:35 am
The larger your fleet and the more you bend the laws of physics the higher the chance of terrors from beyond.
So the Wormhole Drive might actually have the greatest chance of releasing warp daemons and cthulhu into normal space.
Imagine preparing a massive war fleet tearing a wormhole and your entire fleet gets eaten by daemons before you can even declare war XD
Post by: Majestic7 on October 13, 2015, 06:08:56 am
Post by: Catastrophic lolcats on October 13, 2015, 06:23:48 am
I will name my first science vessel Event Horizon and hope for there to be !!Fun!! unleashed through its actions eventually.Don't send the Event Horizon to some scrub planet like Mars. Instead send it on an improbable mission like an close unexplored star system. I'm sure the scout vessel you send to explore that mysterious transmission coming from deep space will have no issues at all.
Post by: BFEL on October 13, 2015, 07:43:55 am
I will name my first science vessel Event Horizon and hope for there to be !!Fun!! unleashed through its actions eventually.Given how much they're hyping the "unforeseen consequences" (paradoxically enough :P) I'm pretty sure all science vessels will be named this by default.
Well that or "Lud Was Right"
Post by: Shadowlord on October 13, 2015, 09:32:03 am
Post by: sambojin on October 13, 2015, 09:54:32 am
Post by: Lossmar on October 13, 2015, 02:26:58 pm
Srsly, 2-3 years back i would wet my pants at the prospect of playing Paradox space 4x, now its just "meh, its gonna be dumbed down, casual shit like Sid Meier Starships".
I hope im right, god damned i hope ..
Post by: Aklyon on October 13, 2015, 02:41:09 pm
Post by: Lossmar on October 13, 2015, 03:03:19 pm
I don't think paradox could actually make something on the level of sid's spaceships. Sounds too simplified.
HOI4 begs to differ.
Anyway as i said - im not hyped at all but im not discouting it entirely. Time will tell.
Post by: Jopax on October 13, 2015, 03:10:40 pm
Also the fling beacon thing is pretty much the FTL from mass effect it seems, and that Loa race from SOTS2 which were basically a nano swarm AI kind of race which could fire giant globs of matter and nanites at FTL speeds, which would then assemble into ships upon arriving into the target system.
Post by: PanH on October 13, 2015, 04:09:15 pm
HOI4 isn't even out yet, and Production seems far more in-depth now. The only thing that'd be simpler is the way you control your army (but hoi3 was atrocious). So far it seems they removed the stupid things hoi3 added and making controls easier.I don't think paradox could actually make something on the level of sid's spaceships. Sounds too simplified.
HOI4 begs to differ.
Anyway as i said - im not hyped at all but im not discouting it entirely. Time will tell.
Post by: umiman on October 13, 2015, 04:10:25 pm
I too highly doubt Paradox is actually capable of dumbing down their grand strategy games. If anything they seem to get more and more complex each iteration.
Post by: Teneb on October 13, 2015, 04:19:21 pm
Same. I looked through all the video walkthroughs and all it seems is that they just made the UI nicer. I love Hearts of Iron but the controls in 3 were horrendous.Pretty much. At most, they make questionable choices, but there is no "dumbing down". I think this is a case of thinking "accessible" means "dumbed down".
I too highly doubt Paradox is actually capable of dumbing down their grand strategy games. If anything they seem to get more and more complex each iteration.
Post by: Silent_Thunder on October 13, 2015, 04:23:31 pm
Same. I looked through all the video walkthroughs and all it seems is that they just made the UI nicer. I love Hearts of Iron but the controls in 3 were horrendous.Pretty much. At most, they make questionable choices, but there is no "dumbing down". I think this is a case of thinking "accessible" means "dumbed down".
I too highly doubt Paradox is actually capable of dumbing down their grand strategy games. If anything they seem to get more and more complex each iteration.
HoI4 is a return to HOI's roots if anything. HoI3 was honestly a mess of overly complex poorly functioning systems that seemed great on paper but in practice were frankly a waste of resource.
And EU has always been baby's first paradox game, I'm sorry but it's true. Never been anything but Map Painter Simulator.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on October 13, 2015, 07:03:26 pm
Post by: Aklyon on October 13, 2015, 07:05:45 pm
Post by: Culise on October 13, 2015, 08:45:36 pm
Honestly, I hate streamlining. Look what streamlining has done to the TES series. Weak man, weak. If anything I want MORE options, with the ability to automate some of them a la Distant Worlds.I will admit that sometimes, I do miss being able to research every single jot and whit in HOI1. Then I actually dust off HOI1 and remember why they got rid of it; for those who missed that game, if you played HOI2, basically imagine each of the five sub-icons of each HOI2 tech as its own HOI1 tech, and you'll have a rather simplified grasp of it. It just wasn't all that meaningful, but rather was mostly busy-work. I won't say that I enjoy the fact that some things have been overly streamlined out of existence (I want my polearms back, Bethesda! They're armed poles and stuff!), but I can't say that I'm upset with all of the streamlining done with the HOI series.
Of course, I'll also admit that I never made the jump from the HOI2's iteration of the Europa engine and its immediate descendants (read: Darkest Hour) to HOI3's iteration of Clausewitz, even where I managed from EU2 to EU3, because I just couldn't get into all the changes made to HOI3 when it was combined with my own...ambivalent attitude towards World War 2-era warfare. So there is that. :P
Post by: Shadowlord on October 13, 2015, 08:57:02 pm
So that's a Paradox game I regret buying.
I'm hoping that the combat and army size and composition and so forth will be more like other 4xes rather than being as effectively uncontrollable as it is in CKII. (I was going to say that was the only other Paradox game I'd really played, but then I remembered I also have EU3, but quit playing that when I got CK2)
Post by: Descan on October 13, 2015, 09:16:24 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on October 14, 2015, 12:37:41 am
It will be interesting to see if Stellaris will be the same kind of empty framework.
Post by: BFEL on October 14, 2015, 05:49:15 am
It will be interesting to see if Stellaris will be the same kind of empty framework.Personally I would be 100% ok with this.
Post by: Majestic7 on October 14, 2015, 06:15:52 am
Post by: Jopax on October 14, 2015, 06:45:29 am
Post by: DemonOfWrath on October 14, 2015, 07:16:10 am
For instance, they're going with 3 methods of FTL travel. When the game comes out, I won't be surprised if within a few weeks people started modding in new options in addition to those, or if an expansion takes that and increases that number while simultaneously making the existing ones more nuances.
How this game evolves with expansions, mods and total conversions (I'm sure a lot of us expect someone to do a full 40k conversion of this asap?) is actually really exciting. You can look at EU4 and CK2, both games (without mods) are vastly superior to what they were at release.
Post by: Zangi on October 14, 2015, 09:47:33 am
The base structure of Paradox games have been steadily improving, like I think EU4 is vastly superior to EU2. What was lost though were the historical events etc and other content. Instead Paradox now increasingly make just skeletons and frameworks, expecting modders to provide the real content. It is the same with CK2, although the base game is great it gets boring quickly; it is the fluff, flavor and events provided by modders in the Big Mods that make the game awesome.Can't please both the this-never-could-have-happened-back-then group and the why-does-AI-always-do-the-same-thing-in-every-damn-game group.
It will be interesting to see if Stellaris will be the same kind of empty framework.
Post by: mainiac on October 16, 2015, 01:17:17 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on October 16, 2015, 02:14:41 pm
For instance, they're going with 3 methods of FTL travel. When the game comes out, I won't be surprised if within a few weeks people started modding in new options in addition to those, or if an expansion takes that and increases that number while simultaneously making the existing ones more nuances.
That's a no-brainer for sure. They've already got:
1. Battletech style (Ship-based, outside system gravity well, high cost, recharge time, limited range, unrestricted destination, non-instantaneous)
2. One-way Gate-style (Infrastructure-based, outside system gravity well, single-threaded, unlimited range, unrestricted destination, non-instantaneous)
3. semi-Honor Harrington-style (Ship-based, no gravity well restriction, restricted destination, range delineated by natural distribution of systems, non-instantaneous, conceptualized as "lanes")
That leaves plenty of options. You can go Starfire style and have naturally occurring paired wormholes which connect instantly but which are easily defended choke points; Star Trek warp drive style and allow ships to travel without a set destination system albeit at lower speeds; maybe even throw in a generic point-to-point hyperdrive which can only navigate to previously visited systems, meaning that you have to send ships out on blind jumps to discover systems, randomizing their destination with a spread weighted by distance from the starting point. Shit like that.
But yeah, if that sort of thing is moddable then the game is ripe for total conversions.
Post by: Aklyon on October 16, 2015, 02:19:23 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on October 16, 2015, 02:24:49 pm
Post by: Culise on October 16, 2015, 02:51:30 pm
Post by: GundamMerc on October 16, 2015, 10:26:48 pm
For instance, they're going with 3 methods of FTL travel. When the game comes out, I won't be surprised if within a few weeks people started modding in new options in addition to those, or if an expansion takes that and increases that number while simultaneously making the existing ones more nuances.
That's a no-brainer for sure. They've already got:
1. Battletech style (Ship-based, outside system gravity well, high cost, recharge time, limited range, unrestricted destination, non-instantaneous)
I'm pretty sure Battletech is instantaneous once you initiate the jump, it's getting to the jump point, the recharge time, and the limited range that limit its travel time.
Post by: Hanzoku on October 17, 2015, 12:50:45 am
Also, prior to 3070 or so, no one except the clans have warships, and jumpships were both irreplacable and practically unarmed, so surrendering it was considered the logical thing to do.
After 3070, everyone has piles of warships, and the whole universe went a bit out of whack.
Post by: Culise on October 19, 2015, 02:41:58 pm
So, Empires are defined by species (in the six major classes we know already: Mammalian, Arthropoid, Avian, Reptilian, Molluscoid or Fungoid), but also by their Ethos (which are designated at game start, but can also be manipulated in-game). Species have genetic traits which are also bought separately, which are much more fixed when compared to ethos but are still not completely inviolate (quote from Sheng-ji Yang here). Pops also have their own ethos which may or may not match their government, like Victoria 2 issues and parties, but it looks like they're a bit more unruly than they were in V2. It sounds...promising, depending on how much control we actually have to influence population and government ethos directly or indirectly.
Post by: Sirus on October 19, 2015, 02:52:28 pm
Quote
We have created a great many (ca 100) unique, animated portraits for the weird and wonderful races you will encounter as you explore the galaxy.
That...that is wonderful. So many 4X games I've played have just one, maybe two portraits for each race, so that every human faction in (insert game here) looks identical. Such a tiny detail in a very nice dev diary but I love it so.
Post by: Aklyon on October 19, 2015, 03:21:00 pm
Post by: Sirus on October 19, 2015, 03:27:35 pm
Post by: Culise on October 19, 2015, 03:35:11 pm
Post by: Teneb on October 19, 2015, 05:19:25 pm
Post by: GundamMerc on October 20, 2015, 02:39:01 am
Yes, the battletech FTL is instant, but recharge is between one to two weeks, assuming you don't have a battery system in the jumpship to carry enough charge for a second jump. This does present the very real possibility that you can jump into a hostile system and lose your jumpship because it can't get back out in time.
Also, prior to 3070 or so, no one except the clans have warships, and jumpships were both irreplacable and practically unarmed, so surrendering it was considered the logical thing to do.
After 3070, everyone has piles of warships, and the whole universe went a bit out of whack.
So basically exactly what I said.
Post by: Majestic7 on October 20, 2015, 03:57:08 am
Post by: Teneb on October 26, 2015, 03:14:46 pm
Looking good so far, especially tending towards victoria-style pops.
Post by: Culise on October 26, 2015, 03:16:51 pm
Quote
Now, as you remember from last weeks diary, there are about a hundred different alien race portraits in the game. Thus, we initially felt that lesser leaders should not have actual portraits, because we could not possibly produce enough of them to provide the requisite variety. But then, the artists started to experiment with different backgrounds and clothes, which thankfully proved sufficient to allow all leaders to show a portrait.
The different types of leaders all use different sets of clothes. This helps increases variety, but also reinforces their role, with admirals having a militaristic uniform, governors being more casually dressed, and scientist being a bit more techy. Clothes are shared between some of the more similar species, because creating five unique apparels for each species is just an enormous amount of work. (Not all species wear clothes though; it would be odd if this was every alien races custom.)
I expect that humans will be by far the most popular race to play. Therefore, they are getting some special attention with different ethnicities, genders and hair styles. There is nothing stopping modders from doing the same for other races, of course! For example, the system could easily be used for other things, like an insect race where you have a multi tiered system, with one appearance for the ruler, a completely different morphology for your Pops, and a third for your leader characters...
Oh, and also, if you remember the last dev diary, the human polity pictured is Individualist 2x, Xenophile 1x. Just a curiosity to point out, but nothing much further (yet).
Post by: Teneb on October 26, 2015, 03:40:01 pm
Sirus will be happy as well - multiple portraits per race confirmed, albeit to varying degrees of diversity, and I am more than pleased to eat my words on that matter. ^_^I think we may be able to customize the human policies if we choose to play as them. I wonder if the devs are right in that humans will be the most popular pick. Makes me want to try a megacampaign when Stellaris is close to launch.QuoteNow, as you remember from last weeks diary, there are about a hundred different alien race portraits in the game. Thus, we initially felt that lesser leaders should not have actual portraits, because we could not possibly produce enough of them to provide the requisite variety. But then, the artists started to experiment with different backgrounds and clothes, which thankfully proved sufficient to allow all leaders to show a portrait.
The different types of leaders all use different sets of clothes. This helps increases variety, but also reinforces their role, with admirals having a militaristic uniform, governors being more casually dressed, and scientist being a bit more techy. Clothes are shared between some of the more similar species, because creating five unique apparels for each species is just an enormous amount of work. (Not all species wear clothes though; it would be odd if this was every alien races custom.)
I expect that humans will be by far the most popular race to play. Therefore, they are getting some special attention with different ethnicities, genders and hair styles. There is nothing stopping modders from doing the same for other races, of course! For example, the system could easily be used for other things, like an insect race where you have a multi tiered system, with one appearance for the ruler, a completely different morphology for your Pops, and a third for your leader characters...
Oh, and also, if you remember the last dev diary, the human polity pictured is Individualist 2x, Xenophile 1x. Just a curiosity to point out, but nothing much further (yet).
Post by: BFEL on October 26, 2015, 07:32:58 pm
Post by: Dutrius on October 26, 2015, 07:35:05 pm
Resistance is futile.
Post by: a1s on October 26, 2015, 09:21:22 pm
Spoiler: Militaristic++ Xenophobe+ (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Militaristic++ Xenophile+ (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Individualist++ Xenophile+ (click to show/hide)
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on October 26, 2015, 09:28:54 pm
Spoiler: It's not obscure enough for Bay12 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Dostoevsky on October 26, 2015, 09:30:29 pm
Post by: Catastrophic lolcats on October 26, 2015, 09:33:11 pm
I think the first thing I'll try to play as is Militaristic Xenophiles. "Murdering you is just our way of saying hi!" :PI imagine that would be something like the Combine from Half Life. An organisation that invades planets to incorporate the inhabitants into their war machine and have completely ascended a singular species.
Also I think the three points are a bit limiting. I think having four so you could be fanatical about two categories would be better. Would allow you to simulate a lot more classic Sci-fi species.
Post by: a1s on October 26, 2015, 09:46:14 pm
Spoiler: It's not obscure enough for Bay12 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: offtopic (click to show/hide)
Post by: Zangi on October 26, 2015, 10:00:23 pm
Profit above all else, if we can't get it, we will take it.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on October 26, 2015, 10:01:07 pm
Spoiler: Also Offtopic (click to show/hide)
Post by: Shadowlord on October 26, 2015, 10:12:20 pm
Spoiler: continuing (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolan7 on October 26, 2015, 10:18:08 pm
Spoiler: Somewhat ninjad (click to show/hide)
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on October 26, 2015, 10:44:45 pm
Spoiler: More Offsiding (click to show/hide)
Post by: Shadowlord on October 26, 2015, 10:55:46 pm
Spoiler: spathi (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sirus on October 26, 2015, 11:15:22 pm
WHOO MULTIPLE PORTRAITS FOR EACH RACE
Don't worry Culise, I hear words are good for you. A zero-carb food.
Post by: Aklyon on October 27, 2015, 01:01:51 am
Spoiler: spathi (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Meanwhile in spathi space (click to show/hide)
Post by: Majestic7 on October 27, 2015, 02:40:16 am
Post by: Zangi on October 27, 2015, 10:11:27 am
I hope there is technology that improves longevity, perhaps eventually making leaders immortal. Then you get stuck with an idiot at the helm for infinity.Eternity is a long time, accidents happen.
Post by: Majestic7 on October 27, 2015, 10:19:14 am
Post by: Teneb on November 02, 2015, 11:02:08 am
Post by: Dutrius on November 02, 2015, 01:55:09 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on November 02, 2015, 01:57:48 pm
Exiting stuff.
Please don't go! The drones need you! They look up to you!
Post by: Dutrius on November 02, 2015, 04:09:15 pm
Post by: a1s on November 02, 2015, 06:51:31 pm
I'm too excited to grammar or to spel.Well you should be, grammar (or as the middle English called it "glammore") and spells are literally ("literarry") magic! :P
Post by: cerapa on November 02, 2015, 08:03:31 pm
I'm too excited to grammar or to spel.
Of spell is silver, grammar gud.
Post by: rumpel on November 03, 2015, 10:03:45 am
Post by: Dutrius on November 10, 2015, 12:37:11 pm
This one is about situations and projects that may arise.
Post by: inteuniso on November 10, 2015, 01:24:30 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 10, 2015, 03:17:09 pm
Post by: Jopax on November 10, 2015, 03:43:35 pm
Potential Tyranid infestation detected, do you:
-Exterminatus
-Exterminatus
-Exterminatus
-Exterminatus
-Exterminatus
Post by: Aklyon on November 10, 2015, 03:47:10 pm
I can already see it:Now with more variety!
Potential Tyranid infestation detected, do you:
-Exterminatus
-Exterminatus.
-Exterminatus!
-Exterminatus?!
-EXTERMINATUS!
Post by: Kot on November 10, 2015, 04:00:29 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on November 10, 2015, 04:05:24 pm
And I'm getting pretty hype for this, they pulled off CK2 so maybe this can pull this off too.
(after a few years of continued development :P)
Post by: Culise on November 10, 2015, 05:15:19 pm
Effect: -1 StabilityI can already see it:Now with more variety!
Potential Tyranid infestation detected, do you:
-Exterminatus
-Exterminatus.
-Exterminatus!
-Exterminatus?!
-EXTERMINATUS!
Post by: Aklyon on November 10, 2015, 05:39:14 pm
Post by: Culise on November 10, 2015, 05:40:45 pm
not Effect: Comet? (Comet giving -1 stability and presumably whatever they mined out of it)Yep, that was the joke I was referencing. ^_^
Post by: Aklyon on November 10, 2015, 05:41:56 pm
Post by: Kot on November 10, 2015, 06:30:07 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 10, 2015, 06:58:35 pm
Post by: Catastrophic lolcats on November 11, 2015, 04:31:28 pm
Post by: sambojin on November 13, 2015, 12:54:34 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on November 13, 2015, 01:26:31 am
/me cocks a gun.
Post by: sambojin on November 13, 2015, 01:45:19 am
Post by: Teneb on November 16, 2015, 11:07:43 am
Post by: sambojin on November 16, 2015, 11:08:11 pm
Hmmm. I understand the idea of efficiency bonuses, but in power stations, that's almost the opposite of the way it works currently irl. Kind of. It would be easier to get fuel resources to the plants, and even establish the infrastructure needed for them if they were all grouped together, but the losses of transmission would outweigh that efficiency for a planetary wide system.
I guess with large scale use of room temperature superconductors for transmission to the site of use it makes sense. Or other forms of transmission.
I'm probably over-thinking it. Since energy is literally a resource in the game, it's probably best to think of power plants not really making electricity at all. Just "energy". Which does stuff.
I guess we'll hear more in coming weeks.
Post by: Shadowlord on November 16, 2015, 11:26:22 pm
I'm not sure if there's any reasoning behind it in either case other than to make the player want to consider carefully how to arrange their buildings for optimum efficiency.
Post by: Culise on November 16, 2015, 11:27:31 pm
Post by: sambojin on November 16, 2015, 11:43:46 pm
Food/minerals/energy/pop is a fairly tried and tested system for 4X games, no matter the individual takes on it. Could be good, could be bad.
Post by: Majestic7 on November 17, 2015, 01:35:49 am
Post by: Teneb on November 17, 2015, 08:59:06 am
I was kind of hoping for generic resources and super rare strategic resources, so we'd have reasons to fight wars over otherwise useless shitholes (cough Arrakis cough). Something like wormholes requiring unobtanium, warp drives grimdarkium and so forth. It would work as an organic limit for how many ships you can build at the same time as well.They did mention how they'd talk about rare resources next week. Maybe the spice can flow.
Post by: RadtheCad on November 17, 2015, 01:23:44 pm
[Long-winded rant]
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
(If you're going to take anything away from this heap of a post, then go read Blindsight. It's free online, and it's pretty good.)
Post by: Glloyd on November 17, 2015, 01:45:58 pm
Post by: RadtheCad on November 17, 2015, 02:50:35 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Yeah, I agree we should hold out on judgement till it's out... still, can't say I'm optimistic after what devblogs I've read. What with the 'everyone has to be on an even playing field!', 'We're going to abstract planetary populations to vague, counter-like units' and maybe even (this I'm not sure about, hope I'm wrong) 'resources you mine get teleported into the galactic treasury!' it seems like they just want to make a casual, utterly 'game-y' board game that trades depth for 'accessibility'. Guess it's time to wait till it's out and hope I'm wrong.
A case study in why hype and pre-ordering are bad, in my opinion.
Post by: Shadowlord on November 17, 2015, 03:10:19 pm
Did they explain how resources are transported yet?
Post by: RadtheCad on November 17, 2015, 05:31:42 pm
In Vic 2, they simulated down to the 5-man group level. I'm not saying to do that here, the scale is different- but a minimum 'resolution' of 10,000 people sounds perfectly doable. That's 100 'markers' for a million people, 1,000,000 for a great big honking planet of 10 billion people.
Of course, this would rely on the industry assignment systems/etc not being based on civ V-esque token shuffling...
I don't think they've outright stated how they'll work yet.
Post by: sambojin on November 17, 2015, 05:52:12 pm
It's an elegant system that's been working well since even before MoO2. Because the last thing grand strategy needs is more micro-management.
As an counter-example, take Stars! Population was divided up into 100 person blocks, with 1.5 million being a large overpopulated world, and individual pop and resource movements could be made. Freighters could be designed, even to be counter designed against light interceptors/mine fields in some cases. It sort of did add another strategic layer to the game. But by god was it fiddly. And min/max'y. Especially later in the game, when the game could become a MM nightmare even without worrying about pop/mineral movements.
I'll give you that this had a lot to do with the interface and implementation. But this was also in a strictly turn-based game, not a tick-based/rt-pausey game that I believe Stellaris is. Sometimes simpler is better in that scenario.
Then again, sometimes Paradox releases DLC for things that we're not really sure we wanted or needed. Maybe this'll be that.
Post by: RadtheCad on November 17, 2015, 06:11:00 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 17, 2015, 06:23:18 pm
Post by: sambojin on November 17, 2015, 06:32:31 pm
They were specifically located once being used however (for pop movements). Food movements were non-existantial, unless that particular planet was under siege (in which case they didn't get the food, but some of your freighter fleet was freed up). I'm pretty sure food freighters could never be engaged. But yeah, space magic. They kind of *poofed* into existence wherever they were needed.
I could be wrong about food freighters though. They may have sprung into existence from the pool at the planet they were delivering food to. And were thus able to be engaged in combat.
Freighters were one of the best done parts of MoO2 imo. Simple, but useful. Sort of an empire-wide resource representing transport capability, rather than a specific list of ships.
Although admittedly, you never went commerce raiding on purpose. They just kind of got blown up along the way to you doing actual things. In Stars!, destroying freighters was definitely a thing. There's advantages and disadvantages in both ways of doing it.
^fake edit: Urist. Play Stars! In multiplayer. It is fucking brutal. But awesome as well.
Post by: Rolan7 on November 17, 2015, 06:33:05 pm
Interesting perspective! I'd rather have important decisions be filtered up through a hierarchy of leaders, leaving the emperor to focus on the big picture. Sorta like CK2 simulates, to the extent it can.
Post by: Shadowlord on November 17, 2015, 06:55:22 pm
Honestly, the thing that I hate most about space 4Xs is the lack of micromanagement. Running a space empire should be fucking brutal.
A. Delegation: You could have people for that.
B. Corporations: Transport companies could exist, for example.
Sambojin, your first recollection about the food freighters is correct: although you could blockade systems in MoO 2, you couldn't directly attack/raid freighters - they only existed on the map when transporting population.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 17, 2015, 07:09:13 pm
^fake edit: Urist. Play Stars! In multiplayer. It is fucking brutal. But awesome as well.
will do.
@Urist
Interesting perspective! I'd rather have important decisions be filtered up through a hierarchy of leaders, leaving the emperor to focus on the big picture. Sorta like CK2 simulates, to the extent it can.
Honestly, the thing that I hate most about space 4Xs is the lack of micromanagement. Running a space empire should be fucking brutal.
A. Delegation: You could have people for that.
B. Corporations: Transport companies could exist, for example.
It's not that I'm obsessed with micromanagement. In fact, I think I would prefer if all of the above were part of the 4X experience. It's the fact that you don't even have the option to go deeper. I mean on such a massive scale the true battle would be to set up a proper government, only once you kind-of achieve that (considering that government is never perfect) can you set up ways to delegate responsibilities and powers. Also, imagine how fun it would be to cripple a delicately formed government, or to siphon power off from the inside as a lower ranking official/ruler.
Post by: Shadowlord on November 17, 2015, 07:25:24 pm
Post by: sambojin on November 17, 2015, 07:34:47 pm
But if you can even beat the game vs 7 random expert AI players, you're probably right about MM. There's not enough of it for you.
Get it here:
http://wiki.starsautohost.org/wiki/Downloads
Get a serial number here:
http://wiki.starsautohost.org/wiki/Where_to_buy
or here:
http://www.starsfaq.com/download.htm
Here's how to play (there's a little bit of reading involved):
http://wiki.starsautohost.org/wiki/Article_Library
It's an old, essentially abandoned game, so don't feel too bad about "testing" it out with a free serial number. Or a $2 donation. It probably is worth it, even vs the AI (which actually doesn't cheat other than info sharing between them). All the fun techs come after tech 10 anyway.
Now, back OT. Stars! is the perfect example of so many things right and wrong about the 4X/GS genre. So good, but so horribly clunky at the same time. You want min/max and MM? Stars! provides. You want race design and grand strategies based off it? Yep, it has that too. Is diplomacy your forte in MP, with real treaties enacted through messaging, not a simple bolted on system? It's the only way of doing it in Stars!, and it works beautifully within the system, with real division of the use of areas available (including stargates, minefields and intersettling). Do you like doing maths on the fly, with no handy tooltip information available to you and using plenty of 3rd party calculators? Stars! likes you doing that too. Do you feel like your eyes don't bleed enough these days? Stars! has you covered!
ps. While Claim Adjuster looks like the most powerful race, and it is economically, it pales in comparison to a well played Space Demolition race. All the economy in the galaxy won't save you from completely unfair combat advantages (super-anti-chaff/fuel/heal and being able turn missile/beam battles on/off at will is a horrible thing to face. Split fleet? Who cares. A very good percentage aren't coming to this battle. They are the most horribly aggressive and defensive race in the game, even with a 100 minefield cap. I love them).
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 17, 2015, 09:41:45 pm
Post by: Nick K on November 17, 2015, 11:47:14 pm
Honestly, the thing that I hate most about space 4Xs is the lack of micromanagement. Running a space empire should be fucking brutal.
You might want to check out Distant Worlds.
Post by: Sirus on November 18, 2015, 12:07:43 am
It's only brutal if you decide to turn all the automation off, and even then you only control the "state-owned" stuff. Your empire has civilians that do their own thing, including all of the shipping.Honestly, the thing that I hate most about space 4Xs is the lack of micromanagement. Running a space empire should be fucking brutal.
You might want to check out Distant Worlds.
Post by: RadtheCad on November 18, 2015, 01:21:47 am
Post by: Majestic7 on November 18, 2015, 01:35:33 am
Post by: Greenbane on November 18, 2015, 07:57:03 am
Well, if people want a brutal game, Aurora's there- ready and waiting... :o
The problem with Aurora is that it eventually collapses under its own weight, due to its ersatz coding and structure, orbiting around a Microsoft Access database. Has anyone managed to play much more than a hundred game years?
As for micromanagement, I don't usually mind it as long as it's interesting, meaningful, non-repetitive management. Micro can mean any number of things to people, but from my point of view, there cannot be grand strategy without detailed management.
Post by: Shadowlord on November 18, 2015, 08:52:16 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 18, 2015, 09:06:49 am
Post by: Shadowlord on November 18, 2015, 09:18:17 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 18, 2015, 09:24:57 am
Post by: sambojin on November 18, 2015, 04:57:06 pm
Mostly the MM does stop though. You just can't be bothered doing it right. By that time you'll have hit your micro limit, and the human brain just can't handle it any more. It assigns it into "important stuff" and "stuff I really don't give a rat's arse about any more" sections of the game, and expansion and colonization tends to end up in the latter. So does basic minefield laying and sweeping on a regular basis.
You'll be micro'ing enough fleets for battle by then, where a 1LY fleet split or change in orders can sometimes make a huge difference, even without exploits.
It's a good test so you can see your own "brain dribble" factor. How long can you keep up complete MM of your empire before you just start using "large chunks of whatever" for that section of the game? God help you if you load a game from a few days ago or have multiple games going over a reasonable time period. It's almost as though your own brain rebels against such torture, and even if you know what you were trying to do, your apathy level rises to ignore the challenge.
I hope Stellaris does away with a lot of that. It's grueling.
Post by: Shadowlord on November 18, 2015, 05:47:23 pm
It's a good test so you can see your own "brain dribble" factor. How long can you keep up complete MM of your empire before you just start using "large chunks of whatever" for that section of the game?
I had noticed that in another way when playing OpenTTD. When I was making tons of money, I'd ignore things that weren't making a lot of money but weren't losing a lot either, because there were more efficient* or fun things I could do instead of fixing or removing those.
* in terms of how much profit they would generate for the time taken to make or change them
Post by: sambojin on November 21, 2015, 06:53:35 pm
I've got a lot of faith in Paradox in this regard. It just depends on if they can make it relatable enough for us to keep our interest, something which can be tricky with aliens/space/future tech.
Take HoI3 for example. Very detailed, huge numbers of units, supply chains, tech trees, diplomacy, the whole bit. But they managed to straddle the line between micro and automation pretty well. Considering just how annoying virtually any other interface would have made being Russia in that game, they did very well indeed. It's not perfect, but once you learn the basics, its actually not that hard to get huge battlelines moving or defending.
If they can do that with a WWII sim, they should be able to pull it off in a space sim, if only because scale can be arbitrarily determined for the sake of gameplay. How detailed/micro'y do you want it? Paradox can more or less choose, so I'm hoping they err on the side of fun and fluid, rather than every little rock having to matter. Good automation, but the ability to go silly on micro if you want.
HoI3 wasn't perfect, but it's a good example of how things could be done, without it turning into a logistical nightmare. Well, mostly, anyway. At least there will be a smaller start point to work your way up from, rather than the 1 hour setup times of HoI3 before you even unpause. It should be a lot easier on new players, rather than the "You're Russia. You have all Russia's stuff. Have fun!" start in HoI. A more organic growth at the start would make most of Paradox's interface styles really easy to use.
Post by: sambojin on November 21, 2015, 08:04:05 pm
But I still want the option to personally command my spearhead army of light/medium tanks and mechanised infantry, so I feel personally involved in the blitzes. And messing around with my air force and a few small naval contingents to put pressure on where needed. But auto-grunts are auto'ing.
I still do want the option to move the grunts around though. I just have no intentions of doing it all the time. But I could, if I wanted to.
And thusly, the war was won :)
I know Paradox can do this, because they have already done so before. It just depends on how they do it this time. Having a smaller start will be amazing. When it's a 4X then GS for the players, but there might be a few big blue blobs for NPCs, it sounds like a challenge. Without the learning cliff or start-up times. Or predefined events/start positions and power.
I'm barely looking forward to Stellaris more than HoI4, but only barely. If there's one company that can do MM vs auto, 4X'y and GS, it's them. Plus, they make games that stand the test of time, even if they're flawed as shit (on release and after). That's a totally different line to straddle, but they always do.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 21, 2015, 08:30:01 pm
Post by: sambojin on November 21, 2015, 09:07:03 pm
B=======) :o
In Earthling, our people's name translates to "We're not going to use lube motherfucker!".
Post by: sambojin on November 21, 2015, 09:20:39 pm
Signed, the B======) :o President."
And thusly, the war of the *happy campers* was begun.
And yes, conquering worlds just to turn that frown upside-down, or maybe straightening it out a bit, can be your entire empire's goal. Make it big, of course, but not bendy.
Post by: Teneb on November 23, 2015, 02:39:31 pm
Seems it should be called just "space station", but it matters little.
Post by: Sirus on November 23, 2015, 03:36:47 pm
Spaceports are a thing now. (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-10-the-spaceport-and-rare-resources.892292/)No, there's an important distinction. When people say "space station", they're referring to any artificial (relatively stationary) structure in space. Spaceports are a specific type of space station, but there are other types of space stations like research or (I assume) defense stations.
Seems it should be called just "space station", but it matters little.
Post by: Shadowlord on November 23, 2015, 03:52:45 pm
Post by: Aklyon on November 23, 2015, 03:56:39 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 23, 2015, 04:00:01 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 23, 2015, 04:15:29 pm
Post by: Zangi on November 23, 2015, 04:30:12 pm
Port = Connected to some town/village/city/planet. Intermediary for transfer of stuff/people between boats and planet. Also can be referred to as a Dock.
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 23, 2015, 05:07:09 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 23, 2015, 05:42:03 pm
Generally a shipyard or "drydock"/spacedock in that case, but again can be part of an overall structure. The terms aren't really fixed, so yeah could beJust MHO but ports generally specialize in facilitating the loading/unloading/transfer/storage of goods and are mostly trade related. Space Stations may contain ports in addition to other things.Or, in space settings, construction of ships.
Post by: Jopax on November 23, 2015, 09:13:06 pm
Also from a practical perspective, it's much more fuel efficcent to do all the big loading and unloading in an orbital area (to say nothing of the ease of handling cargo in zero G compared to doing it on the surface) and then using specialised craft or space elevators to distribute it planetside.
I also really hope we get space elevators, those are cool.
And with that I just realised how cool a Gundam mod of some sort would be, tho those usually take place in the solar system so there'd have to be some adjustments of scale I think.
Post by: sambojin on November 23, 2015, 09:15:01 pm
The thing about hydroponic space farms bugged me, but we don't really know what sort of scale they're going for. Or even how techy the basic civ is. They might be massive, thus actually offering substantial food for the world below (rather than just being a way of lowering resupply costs to your station/port). Is growing food for 10,000 people in space particularly helpful to the millions or billions below? Yes, but not due to gross food output. It makes things a lot better for the world supporting the station infrastructure, energy and resources wise. Unless they're huge farms that actually can feed millions.....
I do hope you can have some other more focused stations (science/defense/trade etc) eventually though. More than one per planet/star in any case, even if they're essentially immobile ships with more gubbins on them. Might get complicated, but I like complicated if it's done well. Or just plenty of customization with one available, and the techs/modules to back it up might work. Maybe with some essentially immobile ship hulls that are mini-stations for the very purpose of defense/trade/science/manufacturing. We'll see.
The rare resources sounds very well done though. Rather than the "You need uranium for nukes!" style, being able to put it into various things is great. Because uranium does more than kabooms. So should rare resources in a space game.
Post by: Majestic7 on November 24, 2015, 01:13:17 am
Post by: Leyic on November 24, 2015, 01:55:16 am
I think it's fairly obvious that spaceports are located in space, I mean, it's in their damn name :VAirports.
Post by: Hanzoku on November 24, 2015, 02:45:29 am
I think it's fairly obvious that spaceports are located in space, I mean, it's in their damn name :VAirports.
In the sci-fi I've read, spaceports tend to fall into three categories:
1 - a ground installation used to travel to space stations or large ships in orbit. Smaller spaceships can land and takeoff from here.
2 - A ground installation and its associated space station. Large ships dock at the space station and once through customs, passengers then take shuttles/teleporter/orbital elevator down to the associated ground installation.
3 - Or indeed, a space station in orbit around the planet.
But yeah, I do agree with Leyic, just because it has space in the name doesn't mean that it has to float in space, the same as an airport isn't hovering above the ground or a seaport isn't floating in the ocean with no attachment to land.
Post by: Majestic7 on November 24, 2015, 04:56:06 am
...buuuuuut... in the grand old man of science fiction RPGs, Traveller, spaceport is a generic term for any place where spaceships dock/land. Highport is an orbital station serving such function, while low/groundport is a ground installation.
Post by: Dutrius on December 01, 2015, 11:47:59 am
!!Science!! (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-11-research-technology.893377/)
Post by: gimli on December 01, 2015, 11:58:00 am
Post by: redwallzyl on December 03, 2015, 09:29:02 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=544&v=uRp7T5irXTQ
Post by: umiman on December 03, 2015, 11:04:48 pm
Post by: jocan2003 on December 03, 2015, 11:36:45 pm
Post by: gimli on December 04, 2015, 09:40:41 am
Post by: Retropunch on December 06, 2015, 03:42:15 pm
However...
I am worried that they're hyping pretty hard at the end - from what it sounds like you'll have completely galaxy shifting moments and emergent civilizations and all sorts of procedural stuff that'll keep dramatically changing the galaxy - if this is true it'd be amazing, but I somehow doubt it. I feel it'll be more of a 'getting near end game -> trigger big bad race appearing' (like in GalCiv2/Distant Worlds).
Any news on mod support? This is begging for mod support.
Post by: gimli on December 06, 2015, 04:25:51 pm
Any news on mod support? This is begging for mod support.
It's a PD game & it's using Clausewitz...a quick example! (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-4-means-of-travel.886502/page-2#post-20075591)
Post by: redwallzyl on December 07, 2015, 10:35:04 am
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-12-policies-edicts.895923/
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: JimboM12 on December 07, 2015, 10:43:13 am
First play-through: IMPERIUM OF MAN
Post by: Rolan7 on December 07, 2015, 10:46:41 am
Post by: gimli on December 07, 2015, 10:51:43 am
I can't wait for the next journal. "Next weeks Dev Diary will go into more detail on pre-FTL civilizations, and the various ways of interacting with them!"
I am going to buy this game for sure, it looks decent, and in Paradox we trust! 8) I suppose the release date is still 2016 february.
Post by: Jopax on December 07, 2015, 01:26:45 pm
Now I really want some way of doing FTL that has a chance to randomly send fleets across savegames or something.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on December 07, 2015, 01:27:18 pm
Post by: redwallzyl on December 07, 2015, 08:16:51 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on December 07, 2015, 08:18:59 pm
Post by: Toaster on December 07, 2015, 08:49:34 pm
Post by: Culise on December 07, 2015, 09:03:09 pm
Post by: BFEL on December 07, 2015, 09:20:17 pm
"We love war! And We like you! So here, have a cup of war!"
We will be SOOOO neighborly.
Post by: jocan2003 on December 07, 2015, 09:55:49 pm
Fanatically Militaristic with a sprinkling of Xenophilic. Invading your worlds is just our idea of a handshake.Spoken like a true dwarf!
"We love war! And We like you! So here, have a cup of war!"
We will be SOOOO neighborly.
Post by: Descan on December 08, 2015, 01:23:44 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on December 08, 2015, 01:42:51 am
Post by: Nuttycompa on December 08, 2015, 02:42:30 am
Science society that slowly turn into hive-mind utopia
Post by: Bastus on December 08, 2015, 05:53:29 am
Basically Tyranids but without the whole Hivemind thing. Because Culise is right, even the most terrifiying insect has the right to live freely. ;D
Post by: Majestic7 on December 08, 2015, 06:00:35 am
Post by: Dorsidwarf on December 08, 2015, 06:03:59 am
Post by: RadtheCad on December 08, 2015, 07:16:53 am
Post by: gimli on December 08, 2015, 08:49:32 am
Post by: scriver on December 08, 2015, 10:58:45 am
Post by: gimli on December 08, 2015, 11:07:15 am
THE SPICE MUST FLOW
Yeah, I was thinking about this 1 as well, but I am not sure that there will be a mod based on the Dune universe...in fact, I've seen one mod only, which was based on this universe, and that was released for Civ 4 [..and I own a lot of strategy games], so I guess that this franchise isn't that popular at all, compared to some other sci-fi universes at least. [Sadly..]
PS.
Creating the texture for Giedi Prime wouldn't be hard for sure. :D
PPS.
Perhaps the planetary battle system will be too simple for a [proper] WH40k or Dune mod [it can work anyway], but we shall see. I am not saying that we need tactical combat of course, having automated planetary invasions -like the space battles- is perfect. Creating a decent tactical AI is close to impossible for now..so basically this depends on the number of modifiers/unit types we can have. I suppose we gonna have more / faction [unlocked by techs] and it should be fully moddable, since having 1 type of infantry / faction for ground combat would make no sense in a grand strategy. I guess even in the vanilla game we gonna have ground units like mechs for example.
Post by: jocan2003 on December 08, 2015, 11:29:41 am
Post by: Zangi on December 08, 2015, 12:43:00 pm
Post by: Kot on December 08, 2015, 12:49:58 pm
Ponies and WH40K, the Solar Empire. WH40K, I really only have references from memes, Chapter Master and that guardsman/inquisitor story but that is enough for my imaginations when mashing it with Ponies.You're evil, evil man.
Post by: Culise on December 08, 2015, 01:02:09 pm
Post by: Sergarr on December 08, 2015, 01:38:07 pm
If they don't fundamentally change the way it works and either fix it themselves, or open up AI infrastructure for modding in a way that will allow modders to make AI behave as they wish without shamanic manipulation of weights, it's going to end as HoI 3 did, with its overly complex and AI-reliant subsystems that break apart the moment you look away from them, and with them broken, the whole game becomes pretty meaningless.
Post by: Jopax on December 08, 2015, 01:42:23 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on December 08, 2015, 01:54:14 pm
I gonna go full "Foundation"
Science society that slowly turn into hive-mind utopia
Honestly, I think that was a poor way to conclude the series.
Post by: gimli on December 08, 2015, 02:15:34 pm
Overhauls and mods are good, but I'm much more worried about the thing that makes these grand strategies alive, AI. I've searched the thread and so far no one has brought this subject to detail, and yet I feel it could use more attention. It is a common fact that Paradox AI sucks. Not only that, but it sucks in a way that mods cannot fix. And unlike in previous Paradox games, here the AI starts from the same position as the player.
If they don't fundamentally change the way it works and either fix it themselves, or open up AI infrastructure for modding in a way that will allow modders to make AI behave as they wish without shamanic manipulation of weights, it's going to end as HoI 3 did, with its overly complex and AI-reliant subsystems that break apart the moment you look away from them, and with them broken, the whole game becomes pretty meaningless.
I've never seen a good AI in a strategy game anyway, which offers a real challenge. [I am talking about unboosted AIs....giving the AI a huge bonus should not count, even tho it's not hard to beat Civ 3-4 or Galciv 2 either on highest for example. IIRC the GC 2. AI -which was considered "good"- had a 400% boost.] Tactical AIs are ridicolously bad in all games, the strategical AIs are a bit better in some of the strategy games.
I am going to play this in MP as well, so I am not worried that much...it would be good to have a good AI of course, but we won't have it in any games in the near future.
Post by: Zangi on December 08, 2015, 03:38:26 pm
Competent, sure. Plays to its personality/traits/goals, yes indeed.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on December 08, 2015, 03:57:17 pm
Personally, I'm not too interested in a 'difficult' AI. I'd rather see a universe that's end goal ain't solely domination in some form or another. At least then, it gives me room to play something suboptimal and not be steamrolled.
Competent, sure. Plays to its personality/traits/goals, yes indeed.
This, I'll take AI that just feel ALIVE. I think Paradox might be figuring it out, however slowly.
Post by: Besserwisser on December 08, 2015, 05:37:53 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 08, 2015, 05:39:40 pm
Kind of like the Federation I guess, but with more focus on science and less boyscout.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on December 08, 2015, 05:44:43 pm
Post by: Besserwisser on December 08, 2015, 05:54:53 pm
I'll have a strict nonintervention policy for races that haven't become starfaring on their own. If that is a thing.
I'm going to assume that's kind of a self-inflicted challenge. There are going to be a number of planets you're not going to be able to use yourself nor can you ally the existing, under-developed population. Still, this could just mean you spread out more among the stars and will have larger gaps between your populated planets, which isn't necessarily a bad thing if you can defend your larger territory and some of the races in it develop space travel on their own. Then again, we already had an event where your colony was approached by a formerly unknown race from underground, so you might not always be aware there is a race to nonintervent with. Better make some protocols for those cases.
Post by: Besserwisser on December 08, 2015, 05:58:49 pm
Post by: gimli on December 08, 2015, 06:02:41 pm
I'm thinkin' some kind of spiritualist, militaristic order working on a code of morality no-one else in the galaxy will ever understand. Let us cut God to see if He bleeds!
Vegetarian crusaders? ???
Post by: Culise on December 08, 2015, 06:03:09 pm
I actually wouldn't be surprised to find that a policy of non-intervention (specifically, the "Noninterference Directive" that came up on screenshots a while back) comes with its own domestic benefits, maybe morale out of a sense of moral superiority, diplomatic since other races know you won't interfere with their own policies, or the like. We'll likely find out in a bit under a week, though, considering the next DD is on the topic of pre-FTL species. From the screenshots we've seen, if you want the Prime Directive, you'll probably have to pick something like "Noninterference Directive", then in policies "Passive Study" for Xeno Interference (even the Federation set up stealthed observation posts using cloaking technology) and "Prohibited" for Xeno Enlightenment.I'll have a strict nonintervention policy for races that haven't become starfaring on their own. If that is a thing.
I'm going to assume that's kind of a self-inflicted challenge. There are going to be a number of planets you're not going to be able to use yourself nor can you ally the existing, under-developed population. Still, this could just mean you spread out more among the stars and will have larger gaps between your populated planets, which isn't necessarily a bad thing if you can defend your larger territory and some of the races in it develop space travel on their own. Then again, we already had an event where your colony was approached by a formerly unknown race from underground, so you might not always be aware there is a race to nonintervent with. Better make some protocols for those cases.
Post by: Teneb on December 08, 2015, 06:03:50 pm
That are actual plant lifeforms.I'm thinkin' some kind of spiritualist, militaristic order working on a code of morality no-one else in the galaxy will ever understand. Let us cut God to see if He bleeds!Vegetarian crusaders? ???
Post by: Rolan7 on December 08, 2015, 07:28:40 pm
(I'll probably be lazy and literally make the Supox because I think obscure references are the best thing ever)
Forging a hierarchy of semi-autonomous battle-thralls sounds great too though.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on December 08, 2015, 08:23:18 pm
Post by: Toaster on December 08, 2015, 08:44:38 pm
That are actual plant lifeforms.I'm thinkin' some kind of spiritualist, militaristic order working on a code of morality no-one else in the galaxy will ever understand. Let us cut God to see if He bleeds!Vegetarian crusaders? ???
Vegetarian vegetables? A dark twist on a theme, for sure.
Post by: Sirus on December 08, 2015, 08:49:05 pm
Post by: Teneb on December 08, 2015, 09:29:06 pm
Why not? We are made of meat and eat meat, after all.Vegetarian vegetables? A dark twist on a theme, for sure.That are actual plant lifeforms.I'm thinkin' some kind of spiritualist, militaristic order working on a code of morality no-one else in the galaxy will ever understand. Let us cut God to see if He bleeds!Vegetarian crusaders? ???
Post by: Majestic7 on December 09, 2015, 12:48:42 am
"Hey, hey, hey you, want to meditate with us? :D" "Uh, sure..?" "SWEEET! Here's an AK, see you tomorrow! *wink*" "??"
Post by: Rolan7 on December 09, 2015, 12:54:52 am
Post by: Zangi on December 09, 2015, 04:12:27 pm
Convincing other empires to change their policies to match yours. Either through war, intimidation or diplomacy.
Slaver Empire wants to open up new markets / gain another 'legitimate' supply source. Sees that their belligerent neighbor, Enlightened Dictatorship is heavily opposed to slavery and is also trying to diplomatically convince others to change their policies to disallow slavery.
Slaver Empire declares war and crushes Enlightened Dictatorship, the condition for peace: Embrace Slavery and maybe also change some laws that would make it easier for citizens to legally fall into
Post by: Descan on December 09, 2015, 04:54:12 pm
Post by: Toaster on December 09, 2015, 04:57:07 pm
Post by: Descan on December 09, 2015, 04:59:25 pm
Post by: Toaster on December 09, 2015, 05:02:29 pm
They would want the slaves for themselves
What if they don't? What if they're freeing someone from the tyranny of choice, and replacing it with a system of safety in certainty?
Post by: DoomOnion on December 09, 2015, 05:03:41 pm
Post by: sambojin on December 09, 2015, 05:14:43 pm
My race? Benevolent interfering self-righteous arseholes. Sort of what angels would be like, if angels had planets and spaceships and guns. Not so much religious (they're angels, they're right by default) as very, very zealous in whatever they do (they're angels, they're right by default, and they're getting God's work done).
So, Zealous/Militaristic with interference and pro-slavery policies, with a nice helping of diplomacy to make sure they still look like the good guys while doing it.
Post by: Zangi on December 09, 2015, 05:20:47 pm
But hey, conquering the worlds of the dictatorship and enslaving them also works. What I'm getting at is there should be different reasons for war, other then the conquest of planets/empires.
If an empire is pro slaves, the most likely thing is that they don't give a flying fuck if other empires like slaves or not, unless they are condemned for having slaves, or they have religious / social reasons to promote slavery in other places.Selling your slaves to them. +Trade/Economy and +Relations
Buying slaves from them. +Trade +Easy source of Slaves and +Relations
Doesn't need to boil down to conquering the universe, does it?
I suppose Ideological Fanaticism is a valid reason to force others to change their ways to match yours.
Post by: DoomOnion on December 09, 2015, 05:23:31 pm
Post by: Zangi on December 09, 2015, 05:32:58 pm
You forget that wars are ludicrously expensive business!Depends... are the ones fighting the wars short on resources and buying it from me at a premium? I suppose I could give a discount on that premium for a friend.
Post by: BFEL on December 09, 2015, 06:50:28 pm
There have always been nutjobs trying to force their beliefs upon others through violence, but a philosophy/religion seeing war in itself as holy would be interesting. Something about existential threats provoking innovation and spiritual growth, testing the mettle of the species and so forth. Not about being commanded by some vegetable god to go and kill evil vegetarians, but about the very conflict in itself being holy and a chance to reach nirvana for all participants.This is pretty much what I had in mind for my Militaristic Xenophiles.
"Hey, hey, hey you, want to meditate with us? :D" "Uh, sure..?" "SWEEET! Here's an AK, see you tomorrow! *wink*" "??"
Post by: Jopax on December 09, 2015, 07:03:39 pm
Post by: Cruxador on December 10, 2015, 06:14:05 pm
Whilst I'm Mega-Hyped. I'm also foreseeing a ton of mechanics based DLCs. A bit like GalCiv3, where they stripped away a lot of the mechanics and plan to gradually feed them back in via expansions.To be fair, when Stardock made a game with all features available from the get-go (Elemental: War of Magic) it didn't work out too well.
The base structure of Paradox games have been steadily improving, like I think EU4 is vastly superior to EU2. What was lost though were the historical events etc and other content. Instead Paradox now increasingly make just skeletons and frameworks, expecting modders to provide the real content. It is the same with CK2, although the base game is great it gets boring quickly; it is the fluff, flavor and events provided by modders in the Big Mods that make the game awesome.Paradox's new policy actually disallows major mods, they only like stuff they directly control, which means mods that fit on the Steam workshop.
It will be interesting to see if Stellaris will be the same kind of empty framework.
Dev Diary 5: Empires and Species (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-5-empires-and-species.887487/)I'm a bit disappointed. A technological/synthetic racial class would be okay; something with robots and AIs and crystal people.
So, Empires are defined by species (in the six major classes we know already: Mammalian, Arthropoid, Avian, Reptilian, Molluscoid or Fungoid), but also by their Ethos (which are designated at game start, but can also be manipulated in-game). Species have genetic traits which are also bought separately, which are much more fixed when compared to ethos but are still not completely inviolate (quote from Sheng-ji Yang here). Pops also have their own ethos which may or may not match their government, like Victoria 2 issues and parties, but it looks like they're a bit more unruly than they were in V2. It sounds...promising, depending on how much control we actually have to influence population and government ethos directly or indirectly.
Based on previous stuff, the xenophobic/xenophilic axis doesn't seem to have much basis in either established sociology or in logic, and is more of a "good guy/bad guy" axis based on a modern pop political idea of tolerance.
"We think you are great! Now join us or else!"Here's another aspect of why: Slavery is considered xenophobic, contrary to the definition of the word. It might be more accurately be called Equality vs Superiority or something.
Quote from: Dev Diary
Most leader types are recruited using Influence (a type of diplomatic "currency" in the game)And that sets off blaring EU4-colored warning lights.
Other dumb choices include: A leader cap, meaning you'll have lots of ungoverend planets and systems.
Adjacency bonuses are by type, meaning you should make a cluster of power stations to maximize efficiency, rather than putting things that make power adjacent to things that consume power, to promote a realistic network of industry.
I always pictured spaceports being on planet surfaces, like on Tatooine, and in MoO 2,In actuality, the most efficient way is to lift parts and supplies into orbit using an elevator and construct stuff up top.
so what is everyone's first race? i what to make a Utopian human federation like in Star Trek. i don't like the dystopian theme that seems to pervade most sci fi.We don't know much about races, so I can't say that for certain. Depends on the traits and portraits available, but if nothing catches my eye I'll just go human. As for nation, I want to go spiritual collectivist to make an ideal society, and either xenophobic or pacifist, depending on how the mechanics work out; preserving my own race (and thus a predominance of my own ethics) seems overall beneficial but I suspect Paradox is making it the "bad guy" option rather than simply making it a tribal "us first" ideology. Might do it even if they do. Pacifism comes with a food (and thus population) bonus, which is nice and I like to build more than conquer, but it depends on how restrictive the mechanics are. Still gonna want to go on cheerful colonialist adventures in other people's nations, after all.
I'm thinkin' some kind of spiritualist, militaristic order working on a code of morality no-one else in the galaxy will ever understand. Let us cut God to see if He bleeds!You endeavor to reach heaven through violence? The faithful of YISUN are a strange breed.
What if they don't? What if they're freeing someone from the tyranny of choice, and replacing it with a system of safety in certainty?Every slavery is inherently hierarchical; for someone to be owned, another must own. That would generally imply belief about who should fit which role, and the odd case where the ruling designated caste isn't necessarily the rulers of your slave nation seems to me an odd enough exception that it's reasonable to be omitted in the base game. Though "force them to adopt this policy we like" seems like a reasonable CB for the game to include. Even "force them to adopt this policy we don't like" if you want to play the USA disarm Japan, radicalize foreign religions, and etc.
a philosophy/religion seeing war in itself as holy would be interesting.The Assyrians had something like that. Others too, including an Orthodox heresy that I don't recall the name of.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on December 10, 2015, 06:48:00 pm
I'm thinkin' some kind of spiritualist, militaristic order working on a code of morality no-one else in the galaxy will ever understand. Let us cut God to see if He bleeds!You endeavor to reach heaven through violence? The faithful of YISUN are a strange breed.
I'm so glad someone got that reference. (http://killsixbilliondemons.com/)
Post by: RedKing on December 10, 2015, 08:02:02 pm
There have always been nutjobs trying to force their beliefs upon others through violence, but a philosophy/religion seeing war in itself as holy would be interesting. Something about existential threats provoking innovation and spiritual growth, testing the mettle of the species and so forth. Not about being commanded by some vegetable god to go and kill evil vegetarians, but about the very conflict in itself being holy and a chance to reach nirvana for all participants.IIRC, there's a race like that in John Scalzi's books (the Consu). They war on other races to help bring them to a state of perfection, and despite being so technologically advanced that they culd wipe out every other race in the books without breaking a sweat, they deliberately hamstring themselves and use technology on par with their enemies, to make it a fair fight.
"Hey, hey, hey you, want to meditate with us? :D" "Uh, sure..?" "SWEEET! Here's an AK, see you tomorrow! *wink*" "??"
Post by: Culise on December 10, 2015, 10:55:47 pm
Paradox's new policy actually disallows major mods, they only like stuff they directly control, which means mods that fit on the Steam workshop.The what? I'm genuinely confused here, because I'm not certain how you yourself define a "major" mod. I mean, for EU4, you have MEIOU and VeF, both of which massively overhaul significant portions of the game. For CK2, you have some massive mods: Crisis of the Confederation moves it to space (in the process both requiring and receiving some specialized bug fixes from the devs that could never have affected vanilla due to the lack of female republican succession there); Warhammer, ASOIAF, and Elder Scrolls all transplant it to separate fictional realms with their own special rules and functions (some of which gets pretty complex, such as multiple species in Elder Scrolls); and CK2+ rather rivals such mods as DVIP, MEIOU (in either incarnation), or Magna Mundi. I mean, something like After The End might not be quite as thorough in its overhaul of mechanics, but a complete transfer of the game from medieval Europe to a post-apocalyptic America is hardly minor, either, and easily matches up with mods like IES or Fantasia Plus. If these are not major mods, what is?
Post by: Rolan7 on December 11, 2015, 01:38:51 am
How can I get in on this. Sounds rad, after playing vanilla republics so much.
Post by: Nuttycompa on December 11, 2015, 02:53:06 am
Well, Paradox has been trying harder and harder to push mods onto Steam Workshop. Also you forgot HIP, which only can't be put onto the workshop due to an installer file in order to set up each module properly. M&T(MEIOU&Taxes) can't be put on because it's too large.
But yeah; Paradox only lets you host mods on either Steam or their forums. No outside links whatsoever.
Umm, The reason most mod can only download from their forum is because they want the mod to act as their DRM, like "You want to use this cool mod? Buy our game then."
Which ,if you as me, is the most respective way the for the Dev to view their mod.
Hell,They even have the pinned topic where Dev and modder regular talk about modding problem.
Post by: Leyic on December 11, 2015, 04:14:33 am
But yeah; Paradox only lets you host mods on either Steam or their forums. No outside links whatsoever.'No outside links' is different from saying mods 'can only be hosted on Steam or the forums'. I just did a Google search for "crusader kings 2 elder kings" and the first link is to the mod's moddb.com page which has downloads for that mod as recent as one month ago. Searching moddb for "Europa Universalis IV" turns up 11 mods (though none of the big ones).
Post by: Nuttycompa on December 11, 2015, 08:07:21 am
Well, Paradox has been trying harder and harder to push mods onto Steam Workshop. Also you forgot HIP, which only can't be put onto the workshop due to an installer file in order to set up each module properly. M&T(MEIOU&Taxes) can't be put on because it's too large.
But yeah; Paradox only lets you host mods on either Steam or their forums. No outside links whatsoever.
Umm, The reason most mod can only download from their forum is because they want the mod to act as their DRM, like "You want to use this cool mod? Buy our game then."
Which ,if you as me, is the most respectful way the for the Dev to view their modding community.
Hell,They even have the pinned topic where Dev and modder regular talk about modding problem.
Post by: Culise on December 11, 2015, 10:44:34 am
Post by: redwallzyl on December 11, 2015, 10:02:28 pm
http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/12/11/stellaris-a-fresh-take-on-the-4x-strategy-genre?%20hub%20page%20%28front%20page%29&utm_content=2
Post by: Cruxador on December 12, 2015, 02:26:26 pm
Other people have already elaborated, but I'd like to add that After the End specifically has been shafted hardest by this, all development is dead now. Which is a damn shame because it's one of very few that added new stuff and did a good job of it without succumbing to bloat.Paradox's new policy actually disallows major mods, they only like stuff they directly control, which means mods that fit on the Steam workshop.The what? I'm genuinely confused here, because I'm not certain how you yourself define a "major" mod. I mean, for EU4, you have MEIOU and VeF, both of which massively overhaul significant portions of the game. For CK2, you have some massive mods: Crisis of the Confederation moves it to space (in the process both requiring and receiving some specialized bug fixes from the devs that could never have affected vanilla due to the lack of female republican succession there); Warhammer, ASOIAF, and Elder Scrolls all transplant it to separate fictional realms with their own special rules and functions (some of which gets pretty complex, such as multiple species in Elder Scrolls); and CK2+ rather rivals such mods as DVIP, MEIOU (in either incarnation), or Magna Mundi. I mean, something like After The End might not be quite as thorough in its overhaul of mechanics, but a complete transfer of the game from medieval Europe to a post-apocalyptic America is hardly minor, either, and easily matches up with mods like IES or Fantasia Plus. If these are not major mods, what is?
Different only in that it's enforceable. It's the difference between saying "you can't do this ever, but we won't enforce it because enforcing it is impossible" and "you can't do this or else you're consigned to irrelevance".But yeah; Paradox only lets you host mods on either Steam or their forums. No outside links whatsoever.'No outside links' is different from saying mods 'can only be hosted on Steam or the forums'. I just did a Google search for "crusader kings 2 elder kings" and the first link is to the mod's moddb.com page which has downloads for that mod as recent as one month ago. Searching moddb for "Europa Universalis IV" turns up 11 mods (though none of the big ones).
Pretty sure M&T IS on Steam Workshop, just split into a number of sub-mods in order to allow it to be on there.I haven't checked that particular case, but if it's like Geheimnisnacht, that doesn't actually function and is just an advertisement. Making a broken-up version work is a massive hassle.
Post by: Cruxador on December 12, 2015, 10:44:09 pm
They're effectively stopping people from putting mods on ModDB and on Paradoxforums. Who actually goes to ModDB to find a mod? Who searches every mod site possible to find the mods they wants, when there's a mod forum already extant? The thing about mods is that they grow from communities, and the mod community is on the Paradox forums but can't post mods ONLY on Paradox forums for technical reasons. This is the equivalent of cutting off modding's head, and saying that it doesn't hurt modding because you can still get the mod in theory is like saying you can still hold a conversation with the beheaded man because he still has a mouth and lungs. Yes, all the parts are there, but they need to be connected to function.Different only in that it's enforceable. It's the difference between saying "you can't do this ever, but we won't enforce it because enforcing it is impossible" and "you can't do this or else you're consigned to irrelevance".That's HARDLY Paradox doing it. They aren't stopping people going to Moddb and downloading things, it's just that the other forms are more convenient and well known
Post by: Persus13 on December 12, 2015, 10:59:42 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on December 12, 2015, 11:19:26 pm
Post by: Persus13 on December 12, 2015, 11:58:57 pm
I see Crisis of the Confederation on Steam Workshop (in multiple parts). Not sure I follow the argument. (I don't understand the instructions, though. They don't seem to say which DLC it supports/uses, unless the answer is virtually none of them.)The majority of the mod is on one part, the rest is music and UI and portrait packs, stuff like that.
Also, what do you mean by the instructions don't say what DLC it supports? It says on the workshop page it strongly recommends Legacy and Republic.
Significant amount of the players of Paradox games never actually register on the forums. Viewing mods on the forums require a registration.So how does Paradox allowing mods on their website prevent people from acquiring mods, especially when the download page isn't through the forum itself.
Post by: redwallzyl on December 13, 2015, 12:02:06 am
they just don't want pirates to get access to mods as a kind of soft DRM sense the mods are ostensibly only accessible through steam which by its nature means you bought the game or the forum which has a verification process. nothings stopping you from trawling the hosting sites themselves if you know how.
i just checked and in fact they added on forum hosting in September.
official mod rules from the EU4 forum:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
You may not charge to buy the mod or charge fees of any kind.Post by: Leyic on December 13, 2015, 12:29:48 am
Also note that the rules state "Below are the rules you must follow if you want to Mention/Discuss/Plan or otherwise Market your User mod on our forums and or list it in the steam Workshop." (Emphasis mine.) This means that the rules are completely invalid for any mod developer who stays exclusively on third-party sites, not that the rules are enforced. It also doesn't apply in case the mod's fans are the ones putting it up on third party sites.
Edit: Having thought about it, the .exe rule probably means not to distribute the game .exe, not that the mod can't be packed as an .exe. Still, that's at least two rules violations, including the big "don't host outside Paradox/Steam" that has everyone in a huff.
Post by: Retropunch on December 13, 2015, 05:14:40 am
Whilst many other games run this risk, Paradox are very DLC dependant, so it's a lot riskier for them. I doubt they'll block mods completely, but there may be a shift in how they think of them!
Post by: scriver on December 13, 2015, 06:06:13 am
The Game of Thrones mod for CK2 is hosted on moddb.com as an .exe file and has a comments thread there. That's at leastthreetwo violations of the quoted rules. What is Paradox doing about it?
I would hazard a guess that the .exe file entry refers to the ParadoxGame.exe file, not any .exe file. I'm also not sure a comments thread would count, and hosting on moddb.com is not a violation. However, the GoTmod does have an external forum (http://citadel.prophpbb.com/forum3.html) though, to which the only "punishment" is that they are forbidden from linking to on the Paradox forums. So yeah, they're violenting the rules and are still allowed to hang around in the Paradox club house.
Post by: Leyic on December 13, 2015, 06:35:29 am
...and hosting on moddb.com is not a violation...
You did read all of those rules, right? Particularly #10?
"10) The Mod should be exclusive to the members of this forum and or Steam workshop."
So putting the mod up anywhere other than Paradox or Steam violates the exclusivity. And yet there it is, seemingly unhindered by Paradox, despite what certain people are saying.
Post by: Retropunch on December 13, 2015, 07:11:08 am
...and hosting on moddb.com is not a violation...
You did read all of those rules, right? Particularly #10?
"10) The Mod should be exclusive to the members of this forum and or Steam workshop."
So putting the mod up anywhere other than Paradox or Steam violates the exclusivity. And yet there it is, seemingly unhindered by Paradox, despite what certain people are saying.
This is because as the prefix for all these rules there is this:
Below are the rules you must follow if you want to Mention/Discuss/Plan or otherwise Market your User mod on our forums and or list it in the steam Workshop.
So if you just want to have it up on moddb that's fine, it's just if you want to use their official forums or the SW. I find that acceptable, because paradox has to pay for both of those services, so they're allowed to charge for it.
Post by: sambojin on December 13, 2015, 08:27:27 am
When I get old or bitter or drunk?
Or are you, you? Or one of our normal bay12ers under a different name? You seem familiar......
Post by: scriver on December 13, 2015, 08:57:50 am
...and hosting on moddb.com is not a violation...
You did read all of those rules, right? Particularly #10?
"10) The Mod should be exclusive to the members of this forum and or Steam workshop."
So putting the mod up anywhere other than Paradox or Steam violates the exclusivity. And yet there it is, seemingly unhindered by Paradox, despite what certain people are saying.
Paradox does not themselves offer hosting, hence:
Quote
2) User Mod files should be hosted on a file share site designed for use by the public (if they know the specific address) and or Steam Workshop.
Is moddb.com different from any other file hosting sites in this regard in any way I am not aware of? Because otherwise there is no violation.
Post by: Rolan7 on December 13, 2015, 09:01:41 am
So a hypothetical pirate wouldn't be able to find the mod on Mediafire, since no Paradox account to find the link, but would see it on ModDB easy.
Post by: Kot on December 13, 2015, 11:00:30 am
Hosting on Mediafire is still "exclusive" if you don't share the link around. Hosting on ModDB puts it in a public index.And all it takes is a single guy who leaks the link to wherever the pirates hang around.
So a hypothetical pirate wouldn't be able to find the mod on Mediafire, since no Paradox account to find the link, but would see it on ModDB easy.
Post by: scriver on December 13, 2015, 12:26:54 pm
Hosting on Mediafire is still "exclusive" if you don't share the link around. Hosting on ModDB puts it in a public index.
So a hypothetical pirate wouldn't be able to find the mod on Mediafire, since no Paradox account to find the link, but would see it on ModDB easy.
Ah, I understand how that point could be a breach as well, then.
Post by: Cruxador on December 13, 2015, 12:32:43 pm
I'm confused. How does hosting mods on the paradox forums prevent major mods?Providing the option harms nothing. The problem is that the option is not very good, because it greatly hinders pushing updates and because it's impossible for multi-person teams to contribute equally. It simply isn't a possible feature to use for every workflow.
Or are you, you? Or one of our normal bay12ers under a different name? You seem familiar...I don't often come to the lower forums, but I've been around bay12 for the better part of the decade. You may have seen me elsewhere too, under the same name.
And all it takes is a single guy who leaks the link to wherever the pirates hang around.All it takes is a single guy who takes the mod from the Paradox download and uploads to mediafire. The only functional difference is for a pirate is like three minutes of someone's time. Someone who bought the game, incidentally, but wants to share content with people who didn't. The only people effected here are people who bought the game, because the users of the forums and of mods are all legitimate users anyway. This is an attempt to keep good content only to those people, I guess, but not only will it not work, it was never possible for this to work. The internet isn't actually a series of tubes, you can leave Paradox's domain easily and find stuff like that if you want to. Hindering mods, one of the biggest selling points for Paradox games and for CK2 in particular, damages the brand quite a bit. Damaging the brand means less people are likely to buy the game, because the fact of the matter is that people only buy because they want to. Piracy is easy enough that nobody buys a game because the devs have tricked or bullied them into it. Even if you ignore the fact that some potential customers will just plain not play the game due to lack of positive publicity, hiding resources that allow piracy would only be effective if Paradox had monopoly over the internet. Hiding resources that are used to build mods, which add publicity, purely because they might theoretically have some relation to piracy, is possibly the most foolish business decision I've heard of since McDonalds decided to undercut themselves with the all day breakfast menu.
Post by: WealthyRadish on December 13, 2015, 12:46:05 pm
Personally I think most of Paradox's mod rules are unnecessary and bothersome, which is one reason why I don't typically release the mods I've made for their games publicly (I'm also lazy and don't want to update or polish them is the bigger reason). The one rule about being unable to claim copyright for instance, I'm fairly sure that's illegal, and it may even be impossible to renounce copyright as they're requesting. It's not that it really matters, since I and every other modder would probably consider their work an open source license anyway, but it just makes it seem like a bad environment to release stuff in.
Post by: redwallzyl on December 13, 2015, 02:09:59 pm
*cough*...and hosting on moddb.com is not a violation...
You did read all of those rules, right? Particularly #10?
"10) The Mod should be exclusive to the members of this forum and or Steam workshop."
So putting the mod up anywhere other than Paradox or Steam violates the exclusivity. And yet there it is, seemingly unhindered by Paradox, despite what certain people are saying.
Paradox does not themselves offer hosting, hence:Quote2) User Mod files should be hosted on a file share site designed for use by the public (if they know the specific address) and or Steam Workshop.
Is moddb.com different from any other file hosting sites in this regard in any way I am not aware of? Because otherwise there is no violation.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
also no you cant access the mod forum unless you have a verified paradox account with that game.
Post by: WealthyRadish on December 13, 2015, 02:31:46 pm
also no you cant access the mod forum unless you have a verified paradox account with that game.
Just checked, and yeah, looks like they fixed it. There are subforums for older games that don't require a linked account, but the others are no longer accessible through google's cached pages, it seems.
Post by: jocan2003 on December 13, 2015, 02:38:10 pm
Well to be honest it is a good DRM system, if you crack the game you cannot install mod, It is not an intrusive protection system. This way if you like the base game enough you might buy it just for the mods, i know i did it myself, loved a game so much but had trouble with some mods or couldnt access the steam workshop to install more so i went and bought it.also no you cant access the mod forum unless you have a verified paradox account with that game.
Just checked, and yeah, looks like they fixed it. There are subforums for older games that don't require a linked account, but the others are no longer accessible through google's cached pages, it seems.
Now i know how to downlaod from the workshop without having the game but it is not the discussion here, what i am saying is i very well approve toward the *extra* being attached to base game, bby that i meant multiplayer section, mods, metagame stuff like that being totally locked out should you crack yet you can still try the full game without the extra.
And now i dont even remember why i pressed reply.... I need to hit my head to clear it i believe. Oh yeah, i prefer extra being locked out than invasive DRM/Copy protection thingy.
Post by: Leyic on December 13, 2015, 06:10:51 pm
Providing the option harms nothing. The problem is that the option is not very good, because it greatly hinders pushing updates and because it's impossible for multi-person teams to contribute equally. It simply isn't a possible feature to use for every workflow.What? Paradox's rules only apply to the distribution of the mod. Other than the part about the development forum needing to be private (which is evidently an unenforced rule), Paradox's rules shouldn't affect anyone's workflow.
...This is an attempt to keep good content only to those people...It's not an attempt to keep good content locked away as there are at least two ways to get content outside of the walls without violating the rules: 1. Have someone independent of the development team responsible for distribution outside the wallls, 2. Don't have a presence inside the walls. That said, it's irrelevant since multiple mods violate the exclusivity rule without having any apparent repercussions.
...Hindering mods, one of the biggest selling points for Paradox games and for CK2 in particular, damages the brand quite a bit. Damaging the brand means less people are likely to buy the game...
Paradox's rules regarding community access have been in place since EUIII at least, so several years. Modding has flourished despite this (at least for the games with large audiences). Paradox doesn't seem to be in any financial trouble seeing as they have four games in various stages of development simultaneously. Whatever damage the rules may have done to their brand, if any, look to be completely negligible.
Post by: Cruxador on December 13, 2015, 06:17:12 pm
Well to be honest it is a good DRM system, if you crack the game you cannot install mod, It is not an intrusive protection system. This way if you like the base game enough you might buy it just for the mods, i know i did it myself, loved a game so much but had trouble with some mods or couldnt access the steam workshop to install more so i went and bought it.Locking people out of the mod section is one thing, since it only effects people who don't have the game legitimately. Preventing people from using both that mod forum and somewhere else, though, not only hinders the development of the modding community, but also undermines that effort by encouraging people to find another nexus for modding.
Post by: Cruxador on December 13, 2015, 06:21:24 pm
What? Paradox's rules only apply to the distribution of the mod. Other than the part about the development forum needing to be private (which is evidently an unenforced rule), Paradox's rules shouldn't affect anyone's workflow.The previously unenforced rule is being enforced now.
Quote
It's not an attempt to keep good content locked away as there are at least two ways to get content outside of the walls without violating the rules: 1. Have someone independent of the development team responsible for distribution outside the wallls, 2. Don't have a presence inside the walls. That said, it's irrelevant since multiple mods violate the exclusivity rule without having any apparent repercussions.1. is illicit, 2. is almost as bad as having no presence outside the walls in terms of dividing the modding community.
Quote
Paradox's rules regarding community access have been in place since EUIII at least, so several years. Modding has flourished despite this (at least for the games with large audiences).Unenforced rules, as you say, don't have an impact. Previously they tacitly allowed links in reasonable contexts, whenever there was a legitimate mod-related purpose. The problem is that they're now enforcing them widely.
Post by: Cruxador on December 14, 2015, 12:05:43 am
Post by: redwallzyl on December 14, 2015, 12:13:54 am
Okay, instead let's talk about how Stellaris is gonna be great except it's actually going to be terrible because influence points are basically bird mana all over again, and the leader cap means that your characters are like EU4's playing card advisors rather than CK2's important characters, and planetary customization is going to be utterly non-meaningful (until the inevitable DLC).whats the influence points thing? this is the first I've heard of it. and how is a limit on the number of characters reduce their importance? if anything having less should means you value them more?
Post by: Cruxador on December 14, 2015, 12:29:49 am
Well, someone's already made up their minds about anything Paradox will ever develop.Maybe I'm feeling more negative about them now because of what they're doing to CK2. And what they did with EU4, and where HoI4 looks like it might be going. Comparatively speaking, Stellaris is the best looking of their games in a while, but we've got to talk about something.
Influence points were introduced briefly in Dev Diary 6 as a diplomatic currency that you use to pay for leaders, and mentioned again in dev diary 12 as able to pay for edicts. They don't look like they're going to be that huge of an aspect of the game, and are more sensibly constrained in what they represent than the three mana pools of EU4, but that particular blunder is still enough to inspire apprehension in me.Okay, instead let's talk about how Stellaris is gonna be great except it's actually going to be terrible because influence points are basically bird mana all over again, and the leader cap means that your characters are like EU4's playing card advisors rather than CK2's important characters, and planetary customization is going to be utterly non-meaningful (until the inevitable DLC).whats the influence points thing? this is the first I've heard of it. and how is a limit on the number of characters reduce their importance? if anything having less should means you value them more?
Limiting the number of characters does mean that the individuals are valued more, all else being equal, but it means that the system is valued less.
Post by: Shadowlord on December 14, 2015, 01:09:35 am
Post by: Leyic on December 14, 2015, 01:12:18 am
Okay, instead let's talk about how Stellaris is gonna be great except it's actually going to be terrible because influence points are basically bird mana all over again, and the leader cap means that your characters are like EU4's playing card advisors rather than CK2's important characters, and planetary customization is going to be utterly non-meaningful (until the inevitable DLC).That they're making something closer to EU4: Space Edition instead of CK2: Space Edition isn't objectively a bad thing. That they're going for an "unified homeworld" setting limits just how much they can do with individual characters in the first place, and you can't really blame them for doing the same thing that basically every space 4x has done. The DLC argument is old and tiring; why bother bringing it up when complaining about mechanics?
Post by: Shadowlord on December 14, 2015, 01:21:30 am
Post by: Persus13 on December 14, 2015, 01:26:13 am
Post by: Shadowlord on December 14, 2015, 01:30:21 am
(So I'm expecting it to be bad and if it's not I'll be pleasantly surprised, versus expecting it to be amazeballs and then being severely disappointed)
Post by: Persus13 on December 14, 2015, 01:31:20 am
It's a nice change of pace from Stellaris: Everyone Praise Paradox For Being Gods Here.True, but knocking on CKII for features you haven't actually seen implemented yet is something I find to be going a little too far. (I can see how coalitions can turn out badly, but it crossing religions is actually a plus for me)
Post by: andrea on December 14, 2015, 01:33:52 am
I might be completely misremembering some events however.
Post by: Majestic7 on December 14, 2015, 01:43:08 am
Post by: scriver on December 14, 2015, 04:10:44 am
Distance is a valid complaint, though.
Post by: gimli on December 14, 2015, 09:22:40 am
Next week: "I hope that you will arrive on time for next weeks lecture, which will cover the uplifting of pre-sentient beings and how mutation and self-alteration can create new subspecies."
Post by: Teneb on December 14, 2015, 09:40:13 am
Post by: redwallzyl on December 14, 2015, 09:59:18 am
i would love it if you could defeat your enemy and send them back to the stone age. or banishing them to some far off desert planet like in homeworld. then they come back later with different ethics and a different government not knowing of what happens.
Post by: Kot on December 14, 2015, 10:16:37 am
Fuck their stability.
Post by: Greenbane on December 14, 2015, 10:22:55 am
That they're making something closer to EU4: Space Edition instead of CK2: Space Edition isn't objectively a bad thing.
Seconded. Not every post-CK2 game has to be character-focused, and it makes more sense to make Stellaris conceptually similar to EU4. You necessarily have to deal with exploration, colonization and trade, for instance. Sure, it'd be fantastic to have a EU-like game with CK2 levels of character depth, but you need to pick a focus as development resources aren't infinite. Meaning, you can't have the cake and eat it too.
Post by: Rolan7 on December 14, 2015, 10:31:56 am
My hype levels have normalized over time, I expect this to be a good game (eventually) but I can wait. I do love how different Paradox game are from other strategy games. I actually still need to play EU4... I've only really played CK2
And like an hour HOI2 when I found it in a bargain bin years ago. Couldn't understand anything, basically just boggled at the interface for a while then quit.
Post by: Teneb on December 14, 2015, 10:45:30 am
I will spam artificial comets all the time.If this is not an actual thing, I hope modders make it so.
Fuck their stability.
Post by: Zangi on December 14, 2015, 10:58:10 am
Here's to hoping that an xcom-like organization forms in case of invasion.That would happen in a cross between aggressive probing and covert infiltration...
Post by: Teneb on December 14, 2015, 11:03:39 am
Thinking about it... yeah, I guess so. Still hoping they put something like that in.Here's to hoping that an xcom-like organization forms in case of invasion.That would happen in a cross between aggressive probing and covert infiltration...
Post by: Besserwisser on December 14, 2015, 12:11:37 pm
Post by: scriver on December 14, 2015, 12:21:43 pm
That they're making something closer to EU4: Space Edition instead of CK2: Space Edition isn't objectively a bad thing.
Seconded. Not every post-CK2 game has to be character-focused, and it makes more sense to make Stellaris conceptually similar to EU4. You necessarily have to deal with exploration, colonization and trade, for instance. Sure, it'd be fantastic to have a EU-like game with CK2 levels of character depth, but you need to pick a focus as development resources aren't infinite. Meaning, you can't have the cake and eat it too.
They should just give us EU:Rome 2 already!
Post by: Persus13 on December 14, 2015, 12:23:03 pm
That they're making something closer to EU4: Space Edition instead of CK2: Space Edition isn't objectively a bad thing.
Seconded. Not every post-CK2 game has to be character-focused, and it makes more sense to make Stellaris conceptually similar to EU4. You necessarily have to deal with exploration, colonization and trade, for instance. Sure, it'd be fantastic to have a EU-like game with CK2 levels of character depth, but you need to pick a focus as development resources aren't infinite. Meaning, you can't have the cake and eat it too.
They should just give us EU:Rome 2 already!
Honestly I'm surprised no one's done a CKII mod for the Roman Republic Era.
Post by: Sergarr on December 14, 2015, 12:23:57 pm
Isn't that what Rome:Total War is?That they're making something closer to EU4: Space Edition instead of CK2: Space Edition isn't objectively a bad thing.
Seconded. Not every post-CK2 game has to be character-focused, and it makes more sense to make Stellaris conceptually similar to EU4. You necessarily have to deal with exploration, colonization and trade, for instance. Sure, it'd be fantastic to have a EU-like game with CK2 levels of character depth, but you need to pick a focus as development resources aren't infinite. Meaning, you can't have the cake and eat it too.
They should just give us EU:Rome 2 already!
Honestly I'm surprised no one's done a CKII mod for the Roman Republic Era.
Post by: Greenbane on December 14, 2015, 01:02:51 pm
Isn't that what Rome:Total War is?
There's no Total War game whose character depth and mechanics remotely approach CK2's.
EU Rome 2 would be a pretty viable candidate for CK2-like systems, due to similarities in scope (mainly geographical restrictions).
Post by: scriver on December 14, 2015, 01:10:15 pm
They should just give us EU:Rome 2 already!
Honestly I'm surprised no one's done a CKII mod for the Roman Republic Era.
A little, but in ky opinion it would be about as useful as making a reneneissance mod for ck2.
Isn't that what Rome:Total War is?
There's no Total War game whose character depth and mechanics remotely approach CK2's.
EU Rome 2 would be a pretty viable candidate for CK2-like systems, due to similarities in scope (mainly geographical restrictions).
But primarily because EU: Rome also was character focused ;)
Post by: Greenbane on December 14, 2015, 01:21:04 pm
But primarily because EU: Rome also was character focused ;)
True. :P
To be honest, I've barely played it.
Post by: Cruxador on December 15, 2015, 01:45:03 am
That they're making something closer to EU4: Space Edition instead of CK2: Space Edition isn't objectively a bad thing.Only if you consider good and bad to not ever be objective.
Quote
The DLC argument is old and tiring; why bother bringing it up when complaining about mechanics?Because business model has an effect on mechanic implementation and choices. It's relevant.
True, but knocking on CKII for features you haven't actually seen implemented yet is something I find to be going a little too far. (I can see how coalitions can turn out badly, but it crossing religions is actually a plus for me)We have seen it implemented, though. It's a mechanic taken from their EU4, where it works poorly, and Victoria 2 where it at least serves a function in modeling the politics of the era. This applies to shattered retreats as well, incidentally, which are in EU and are annoying and illogical but ultimately a minor annoyance.
Post by: Greenbane on December 15, 2015, 11:49:22 am
That they're making something closer to EU4: Space Edition instead of CK2: Space Edition isn't objectively a bad thing.Only if you consider good and bad to not ever be objective.
What do you even mean? Yes, theoretically good and bad are entirely subjective definitions, that's fine. People use "objectively" way too often these days.
That aside, you didn't actually reply. Going for wider scope and lesser depth isn't necessarily reprehensible. CK2 is deeper than EU4 in several regards, particularly character mechanics, but sacrifices scope to a significant degree: it comprises only a small chunk of the world (somewhat bigger thanks to DLCs), there's no trade, no colonization, hell, not even naval combat. All justified by the historical context and eurocentrism, but the point stands. You can't go wide and deep with a comparable budget. As I said earlier, you can't have it all.
Post by: gimli on December 15, 2015, 12:19:38 pm
I don't think that a grand space strategy should focus on character development anyway. There are much more important gameplay elements/mechanics in a game on this scale.
Hell, if I would have to choose between having deep character development or a well detailed planetary combat system, I wouldn't hesitate to choose #2., because that would be more beneficial for a game like this.
I also don't care about their DLC model. Those are just DLCs. What is important is that PD is supporting their community with the expansions. They keep adding important content [gameplay elements, subsystems etc.].. that being said, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the expansions would focus on character development & the planetary battles. ;D
Post by: Majestic7 on December 15, 2015, 12:24:15 pm
Post by: Greenbane on December 15, 2015, 01:34:42 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on December 15, 2015, 01:55:26 pm
Post by: inteuniso on December 15, 2015, 02:13:50 pm
All the protectorates.
Post by: Zangi on December 15, 2015, 02:25:57 pm
But then I don't expect Stellaris to have anything like that... (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-6-rulers-and-leaders.888500/) what with there being no sense of hierarchy, just positions.
I'd probably mod life-span to be 9999 years. Especially if there is no option to auto-place characters. Can't be arsed to personally replace people everytime someone croaks cause old, if they have no agency other then 'be appointed and do job'.
Gonna commit all the atrocities.
Post by: Majestic7 on December 15, 2015, 02:29:52 pm
Post by: Zangi on December 15, 2015, 02:39:30 pm
I think the leaders have personal ethics and if they disagree with the choices you make, there might be !!FUN!! as a result.That is fine. It is much more interesting to make an example of them rather then dealing with positions emptying on their own.
Post by: Retropunch on December 15, 2015, 04:07:03 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on December 15, 2015, 04:26:54 pm
I'm really disappointed that they're not doing more complex characters. Whilst I didn't expect it to be CK2 level, I expected them to be pretty fleshed out compared to the current ones which look 100% 4x standard.What would be more interesting are characters that are outside of your control.
Post by: gimli on December 15, 2015, 04:50:52 pm
I'm really disappointed that they're not doing more complex characters. Whilst I didn't expect it to be CK2 level, I expected them to be pretty fleshed out compared to the current ones which look 100% 4x standard.What would be more interesting are characters that are outside of your control.
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away....
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kot on December 15, 2015, 04:52:46 pm
"It's not appropriate" seems like an understatement.I'm really disappointed that they're not doing more complex characters. Whilst I didn't expect it to be CK2 level, I expected them to be pretty fleshed out compared to the current ones which look 100% 4x standard.What would be more interesting are characters that are outside of your control.
"A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away....",Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Retropunch on December 15, 2015, 05:23:54 pm
I had honestly thought the extra character development would have been one thing to really give this a one up over all other space 4x's.
In pretty much every space 4x, all the races play the same other than slightly different tech and ships (plus maybe a few modifiers on planet types and whatever). Having real, tangible differences in the way the different races politics and culture works (similar to how CK2's do) would have been incredible.
Even without that, having more fleshed out relationships for things like civil wars would have really helped give things a sense of late game purpose.
Post by: Majestic7 on December 16, 2015, 01:27:33 am
Post by: gimli on December 16, 2015, 12:18:18 pm
ITS NOT APPROPRIATE!!!
I had honestly thought the extra character development would have been one thing to really give this a one up over all other space 4x's.
In pretty much every space 4x, all the races play the same other than slightly different tech and ships (plus maybe a few modifiers on planet types and whatever). Having real, tangible differences in the way the different races politics and culture works (similar to how CK2's do) would have been incredible.
Even without that, having more fleshed out relationships for things like civil wars would have really helped give things a sense of late game purpose.
Hehe. I am not against anything like that, it would be good to have an interesting character subsystem, which works properly on a galactic level. However I am not sure that what should be added [in an expansion]....afterall CK2 had a strong focus on internal politics [rebels, factions, families etc.].
You have mentioned civil wars for example. It can be triggered by an event...yeah it sounds crap, primitive & random, but I doubt that we will have internal politics in Stellaris. It would be awesome to have that, but well...it is a very complex system. We can just only hope that they will work on stuff like this after v1.0. It is possible, but who knows that what do they have in mind. [I say it again: there are more important subsystems in a game like this. If those are "proper enough" they can enhance the game with adding content like internal politics for example.]
PS.
I think they already know that what will be added in the first 2-3 expansions. ;)
Post by: inEQUALITY on December 16, 2015, 01:28:33 pm
I doubt that we will have internal politics in Stellaris.
Character-based, no, probably not. But they already said that various populations will have their own ethics, something like Vicky 2 had with ideologies/parties/whatever it was called. So I imagine that's going to have some in-game effects that I'd consider internal politics, all the way up to revolutions or rebellions, unless they've said otherwise.
Post by: Zangi on December 16, 2015, 01:36:13 pm
Won't be a default setting... just shunt it off to its own government policies which the player/ai would need to enact/choose if they want it...
DLC
Post by: Kot on December 16, 2015, 01:58:04 pm
Would be interesting if population units could become loyal to characters tooDo you want Space Hitler?
Because this is how you get Space Hitler.
Post by: Drakale on December 16, 2015, 02:00:25 pm
Post by: Greenbane on December 16, 2015, 02:14:54 pm
Would be interesting if population units could become loyal to characters tooDo you want Space Hitler?
Because this is how you get Space Hitler.
It's basically any personality cult. Not a bad thing to crop up organically, but it seems rather specific.
Post by: Kot on December 16, 2015, 02:23:02 pm
Space Joseph Stalin. Space Mao Zedong. Space Kim Il-sung.Would be interesting if population units could become loyal to characters tooDo you want Space Hitler?
Because this is how you get Space Hitler.
It's basically any personality cult. Not a bad thing to crop up organically, but it seems rather specific.
Post by: Retropunch on December 16, 2015, 02:26:57 pm
I can definitely see that working, with various factions pulling you this way and that, rather than characters who, admittedly, wouldn't have much of an influence on transgalactic policy.
If government just ends up being some basic modifers to pop happiness (etc.) I will be severely, severely disappointed though.
Post by: Rolan7 on December 16, 2015, 02:41:34 pm
Just read the last diary about primitive civilizations, that was really nice. Uplifting and integrating them to your empire in particular sounds great and flavorful. I hope we can have uplifted medieval civilization to form your shock troops for invasion. Doubtful since it seem they become protectorate and semi-autonomous, but we'll see.I haven't been following the diaries, but I hope this is the case. I've done it to some extent in Space Empires IV and Master of Orion 2... Except ironically the main thing you *can't* do is use them as troopers. In the first you basically use them to colonize planets with atmospheres you can't breathe, and in the latter they're only ever good as workers/scientists/farmers due to racial bonuses.
I really hope it's possible to form a Star Trek Federation style group, where multiculturalism provides benefits.
Along with the antithesis, of course, a xenocidal empire.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 16, 2015, 02:55:44 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on December 16, 2015, 03:54:15 pm
That's one of the things I loved about Distant Worlds. Bringing new races into your empire gave you their traits! And if they're good ground troops, you can use them as such.DW did multiracial empire more-or-less right... and even as races became more populous in your empire they began to rise to higher levels of government.
Post by: Cicero on December 16, 2015, 04:01:05 pm
Space Joseph Stalin. Space Mao Zedong. Space Kim Il-sung.Would be interesting if population units could become loyal to characters tooDo you want Space Hitler?
Because this is how you get Space Hitler.
It's basically any personality cult. Not a bad thing to crop up organically, but it seems rather specific.
Or you could have good guy space Martin Luther King Jr! Tolerance for the xenos.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 16, 2015, 04:11:06 pm
Or you could set certain race families to be enslaved, and set up penal colonies. Or resettle anyone not of your race off of your homeworld to keep that world 'pure' while letting them live anywhere else in your empire.That's one of the things I loved about Distant Worlds. Bringing new races into your empire gave you their traits! And if they're good ground troops, you can use them as such.DW did multiracial empire more-or-less right... and even as races became more populous in your empire they began to rise to higher levels of government.
I would often take over prewarp races and then resettle them throughout my empire so they spread out and grow faster, giving me them tasty bonuses.
Post by: Drakale on December 16, 2015, 04:30:16 pm
I would often take over prewarp races and then resettle them throughout my empire so they spread out and grow faster, giving me them tasty bonuses.
Depending on your race, moral bonus for being tasty would be nice too.
Post by: Besserwisser on December 16, 2015, 04:36:19 pm
Post by: Persus13 on December 16, 2015, 04:59:05 pm
So basically Space British Empire?That's one of the things I loved about Distant Worlds. Bringing new races into your empire gave you their traits! And if they're good ground troops, you can use them as such.DW did multiracial empire more-or-less right... and even as races became more populous in your empire they began to rise to higher levels of government.
Post by: sambojin on December 16, 2015, 05:10:16 pm
Hurrah! Space Dingos and Space Babies and whatnot! We win!
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 16, 2015, 05:41:33 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on December 16, 2015, 05:49:27 pm
So basically Space British Empire?That's one of the things I loved about Distant Worlds. Bringing new races into your empire gave you their traits! And if they're good ground troops, you can use them as such.DW did multiracial empire more-or-less right... and even as races became more populous in your empire they began to rise to higher levels of government.
It can go either way, I've done space UK, space USA, space HRE, space Hitler, etc.
Post by: Kot on December 16, 2015, 05:52:11 pm
Oh wait, right, Poland can't into space.
EDIT: Also, yeah, they totally have to make some reference to that, maybe in shape of an achivement. If they don't, they lose everything.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on December 16, 2015, 05:56:59 pm
Space Poland?
Oh wait, right, Poland can't into space.
EDIT: Also, yeah, they totally have to make some reference to that, maybe in shape of an achivement. If they don't, they lose everything.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/9eYL_PUAlHY/maxresdefault.jpg)
Polan is of exceed many expectation!
Post by: Kot on December 16, 2015, 06:03:31 pm
For Poland, there is only one way to can into space.
Watch with English subtitles. Or something. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRdYz8cnOW4)
Post by: BFEL on December 17, 2015, 12:43:20 pm
(https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0340/58/1407779643891.png)Oh god the Hussar wing-flames just MAKE this.
For Poland, there is only one way to can into space.
Watch with English subtitles. Or something. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRdYz8cnOW4)
Post by: Orange Wizard on December 18, 2015, 04:27:59 am
Post by: redwallzyl on December 21, 2015, 02:46:28 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-14-uplifting-and-subspecies.898648/
Post by: Zangi on December 21, 2015, 03:54:56 pm
Post by: Digital Hellhound on December 21, 2015, 04:09:49 pm
Post by: Knave on December 21, 2015, 04:36:24 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on December 22, 2015, 01:26:02 am
Fapping intensifies.
Post by: Sergarr on December 22, 2015, 03:04:27 am
Post by: Ghazkull on December 22, 2015, 05:57:46 am
Bad Example of Uplifting: Krogans from Mass Effect
Good Example of Uplifting:
actually both are hilarious and awesome. Uplift everything and then transhuman everyone as often as you can, just so that you end up waging fifty genocidal wars at once with your former serf-races and sub-species, culminating in the lot of you gettign exterminated by rebelling A.I.
You don't need aliens, you create them in this game XD
Post by: Majestic7 on December 22, 2015, 06:00:54 am
Post by: gimli on December 22, 2015, 10:18:41 am
new dev diary:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-14-uplifting-and-subspecies.898648/
Sweet. Oh and the modding potential is...HUGE. I am pretty sure that we will have many TC mods & tons of small mods [ex. new subspecies]. 8)
Post by: Cruxador on December 22, 2015, 09:11:50 pm
I hope there will be some positive transhumanism aspects, as well. Because it would be silly if there weren't.The positive is that your race gets new traits. The government's choice to modify your species wasn't heavily detailed, but it's possible you can modify the base species that way rather than making subspecies. And when you do get subspecies, they're better and more suited to their environment than your initial race. As long as you prevent the whole "take over the empire" thing, it's purely a boon.
Sweet. Oh and the modding potential is...HUGE. I am pretty sure that we will have many TC mods & tons of small mods [ex. new subspecies]. 8)I'm pretty sure that new subspecies will be procedurally generated in a hard-coded manner based on the name and traits of the parent race, and traits that would be helpful to a subspecies' planet or are generally positive (hopefully) according to local ethos.
Post by: gimli on December 23, 2015, 11:43:13 am
Sweet. Oh and the modding potential is...HUGE. I am pretty sure that we will have many TC mods & tons of small mods [ex. new subspecies]. 8)I'm pretty sure that new subspecies will be procedurally generated in a hard-coded manner based on the name and traits of the parent race, and traits that would be helpful to a subspecies' planet or are generally positive (hopefully) according to local ethos.
Yeah, that is possible!
Oh and I just found some info about the next DD (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-14-uplifting-and-subspecies.898648/page-2#post-20382263): "Everybody's favorite game director Doomdark will post the next Dev Diary on January 4th, and it will be about Fallen Empires. That's the plan, at least!"
Post by: sambojin on December 26, 2015, 08:10:08 pm
Take control of the uplifted or gene-modded successor species and wreck the hell out of your former empire.
Could even work in MP as a restriction. Once you uplift a people, you have to play as them within a decade.
It's a kind of close similarity to CK2's children and succession system. Might be fun.
Now we just have to see if you can perma-ally with and crossbreed/gene-fuse species together so that not only can we make unholy abominations under God, we can replicate the marriage, birth and upbringing system (which apparently God likes, so it evens out).
Post by: sambojin on December 26, 2015, 08:35:47 pm
Most empires are female, or the alien'y equivalent.
Or possibly hermaphroditic, as you can apparently impregnate yourself and have children.
But it might have been science that actually got you up the duff. Science didn't use protection when it was with you either. Or bother paying maintenance. But it still does things for you like fix fences and make sure the electronics in your house all work.
Or did the Post-Sambos come from god? Immaculately. To wage war against the galaxy?
All reasonable views to RP a successor species in Stellaris.
It'll be good to see how deep the diplomacy system goes to see if there are family and marriage analogues in there. But if you view an empire as a noble from CK2, it's already looking deep (and possibly somewhat disturbing). Plus, you'll get to pick or make your own family, but it doesn't sound like you start out with relations.
It might not be too hard to force-gen "You are the Post-Post-Post-Foo, son of Post-Post-Foo, brother of Post-Post-Post-Foo2, great grandson of the Foo" in a mod, thereby giving you immediate "family" lines and relations already in place.
It depends on whether you can have more than one gene-modification event per race, or if you're stuck with one and then pre-sentients are your only outlet for more "family". I don't see why there'd only be one though. Dump some colonists on a world too hot for them, some on too cold, some on a high grav world, some on a high radiation world, and they'd all want to gene-mod themselves in different ways I'd expect. This actually makes the worlds themselves a "father" analogue for this scenario.
I wonder if there'll be any automatic bond or hate between any of the Foo line. And how many species you can uplift for family "lineages" of your race.
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on December 26, 2015, 08:38:28 pm
Post by: sambojin on December 26, 2015, 08:47:33 pm
You can uplift a species, which makes them like the pre-sentient species, but better. But possibly tailored to be good at a specific task for you.
Or you can go trans-human(alien, whatever) and the kid will be like you, but better. But also like the world they came from.
So do you want the kid to take after you and their world, or the pre-sentient "daddy" and a job description? Your choice.
Then you switch to that race as soon as you can (you'll be trying to let them rebel/break free of your empire) and repeat the process.
Between dubiously applied eugenics and matricidal fervour, your "kids" eventually become the master-race, exactly as you want them to be.
Post by: RadtheCad on December 27, 2015, 04:17:57 pm
I like the aspect of things developing outside of your direct control inside of your own empire. Sounds like it'll make things feel more alive.
Post by: Descan on December 29, 2015, 11:36:00 pm
Post by: Sirus on December 29, 2015, 11:44:31 pm
I just hope I can recreate the Combine. Invade a world, strip its resources, and augment and enslave the population into my military for further conquests.That would be pretty awesome.
Post by: Azazass on December 30, 2015, 10:54:46 am
In some 4X, the benefits are not that significant. Looking at you GalCiv 3, in Endless Space colonies actually mattered.
Most of the time the long term bonuses are not that beneficial, by the time the colony you took becomes profitable, your original worlds have expanded and evolved so much than your conquest seem insignificant, even after a long time.
The short term benefit is that they work as sort of rally point, staging grounds, minor repair port, whatever you want to call them for your invasion fleet.
Diplomacy has been a very shallow point in many 4X games, eventually all empires grow to hate you, is rare to have a loyal pasty or like back in GalCiv 2, they are so afraid of you that is not fun, you couldn't wage war for more than 3 to 4 turns when they were already asking for peace or surrendering to some useless empire like the Torians, the Arcean and the Drath.
Post by: gimli on December 30, 2015, 11:16:44 am
Diplomacy has been a very shallow point in many 4X games, eventually all empires grow to hate you, is rare to have a loyal pasty or like back in GalCiv 2, they are so afraid of you that is not fun, you couldn't wage war for more than 3 to 4 turns when they were already asking for peace or surrendering to some useless empire like the Torians, the Arcean and the Drath.
I am pretty sure that PD will handle it properly. They have done a good job with the CK2 & EU4 diplomacy system.
One of the upcoming DDs will enlighten us anyway. ;)
Oh and btw, here is the Stellaris wiki [..for those who are interested]. -> http://www.stellariswiki.com
Post by: Majestic7 on December 30, 2015, 12:17:41 pm
Post by: Retropunch on December 30, 2015, 01:46:32 pm
They've already mentioned about councils and multi-way alliances which sound very interesting. I'm hoping that I'll be in the position of NEEDING to form an alliance rather than just doing it to stop a race annoying me for a little while.
Post by: Majestic7 on December 30, 2015, 03:12:38 pm
I think that would be very interesting dynamic in multiplayer if there is intra-federal plotting going, but at the same time some unity required against external foes.
Post by: Zangi on December 30, 2015, 03:19:14 pm
Post by: Retropunch on December 30, 2015, 03:39:26 pm
Federations sound interesting.
That's very similar to Crusades/the pope in other Paradox games, so I wouldn't be surprised if they had something like that in.
Diplomacy, bane of all 4x-types. Most of it comes down to either: Stupidly exploitable only by the player or everyone hates the player over the smallest things.Completely agree. So many good 4x's are let down by abysmal Diplomacy. Most of it just seems to be a lack of testing/being sensible as well as not enough ways to interact. I'm hoping they'll bring across some of the diplomacy from other paradox games, and add some interesting events that keep the relationships a bit more dynamic.
Post by: Majestic7 on December 30, 2015, 03:43:58 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on December 30, 2015, 03:52:13 pm
Diplomacy, bane of all 4x-types. Most of it comes down to either: Stupidly exploitable only by the player or everyone hates the player over the smallest things.Here's hoping for "stupidly exploitable by the player". Then we can do the cool stuff we want with less pressure to play optimally.
Post by: Zangi on December 30, 2015, 04:02:31 pm
Diplomacy, bane of all 4x-types. Most of it comes down to either: Stupidly exploitable only by the player or everyone hates the player over the smallest things.Here's hoping for "stupidly exploitable by the player". Then we can do the cool stuff we want with less pressure to play optimally.
Ah right, I suppose I forgot to add in the word 'only' before the by. (Even in CKII, patches seem to have pushed back on the stupidly exploitable part overtime...)
Which is probably the main reason why devs like to swing it the other way when they can't properly do AI diplo and/or want to make things revolve around the player.
Post by: Azazass on December 31, 2015, 09:53:03 am
And what do you folks think of multiple Federations, are they possible? Will their interaction be only limited to constant war-footing, could they merge? Will the federation represent your nation in all diplomatic interaction with rival federations or could you lead a somewhat independent stance but still be part of a federation?
A war between two large and heavily armed federations should be fun.
Post by: Teneb on December 31, 2015, 09:55:38 am
Post by: gimli on December 31, 2015, 10:10:15 am
Federations sound interesting. Basically a federal fleet builds ships based on all the best part available to all the member races, potentially thus being much more powerful per ship than the species-spesific fleets. The presidency is circulated among the member species and the president controls the federal fleet.
I think that would be very interesting dynamic in multiplayer if there is intra-federal plotting going, but at the same time some unity required against external foes.
It sounds great for sure....on a side note..hopefully PD will be able to create a good AI [The EU4 AI is bad, the CK2 AI is slightly better] finally, because if the AI will be crap in this game as well..diplomatic options like this will be used as yet another tool to exploit the AI.
And what do you folks think of multiple Federations, are they possible?
Sure, why wouldn't that be possible?
Post by: Majestic7 on December 31, 2015, 10:21:55 am
Post by: jocan2003 on January 01, 2016, 05:23:37 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 01, 2016, 05:54:00 pm
The best diplomacy system i found was in star ruler 2 with the card system, you could do lots of nifty things and gaining leverage against other empire was a thing to force a vote your way, IE: The enemy has a colony in your system, well pss a vote so they turn it to you, and if it happens you have allies who hates him they might even pitch in your favor!
I mean... Could we get a similar system without cards?
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 01, 2016, 07:09:28 pm
Post by: Firgof Umbra on January 01, 2016, 07:12:50 pm
The best diplomacy system i found was in star ruler 2 with the card system, you could do lots of nifty things and gaining leverage against other empire was a thing to force a vote your way, IE: The enemy has a colony in your system, well pss a vote so they turn it to you, and if it happens you have allies who hates him they might even pitch in your favor!
I mean... Could we get a similar system without cards?
Sure, but it'll always be an abstract representation if you follow that system. If you're looking for something 'more immersive' then it's going to take a whole lot of work and extra detail to justify how you picked up 'Leverage' on another Empire - and why you can't use that outside of the political sphere to damage their empire rather than just use their voice against them in a vote; also, why you only get a certain number of usages of it. Then we get into 'and who is this mysterious person who put up said leverage' and 'how do we know how damaging it is to that empire without seeing it - and if we're seeing it, how is that not already damaging them'. Why is the damage only constrained to a vote? Etc. The rabbit hole of justifications for such a system goes on for some time and would just clutter an otherwise very simple, easy to use and read, system.
Easier to just drop all the babbling, sometimes nonsense/unjustified pretext and call them what they are: Cards/Actions. Some game mechanics are game mechanics that you can only partially justify at the best of times. Why does shooting that particular guy in the face suddenly make you better at reloading; why does discovering a location sometimes allow you to carry heavier weaponry? Because we suspend our disbelief because we like the XP-leveling-and-choosing-benefits system.
Post by: jocan2003 on January 01, 2016, 07:13:33 pm
The cards just denoted available actions. You spent influence to gain those actions, representing back room deals and political pressure. You could even gain 'intel' actions by spying on other people, which represented you threatening to reveal awkward or embarrassing secrets about them unless they help you.Exactly, i supposer i could have been clearer(explained better?)It was really in-dept and ranging from bonus to your planet for a while, to renaming a flagship for bonuses to stealing artifact or enforcing non-combat zone or making some planets immune to attacks or some action allowed militia type reinforcement boosting your passive ship creation, now that imtalking about it i feel like firing up the game again dammit...
Post by: jocan2003 on January 01, 2016, 07:18:07 pm
So what o.O? It is still a lot better than 99% of the other game. Isnt good enough for you just because it is abstract? Im trying to understand.Sure, but it'll always be an abstract representation if you follow that system. If you're looking for something 'more immersive' then it's going to take a whole lot of work and extra detail to justify how you picked up 'Leverage' on another Empire - and why you can't use that outside of the political sphere to damage their empire rather than just use their voice against them in a vote; also, why you only get a certain number of usages of it.The best diplomacy system i found was in star ruler 2 with the card system, you could do lots of nifty things and gaining leverage against other empire was a thing to force a vote your way, IE: The enemy has a colony in your system, well pss a vote so they turn it to you, and if it happens you have allies who hates him they might even pitch in your favor!
I mean... Could we get a similar system without cards?
Easier to just drop all the babbling pretext and call them what they are: Cards/Actions.
Post by: Firgof Umbra on January 01, 2016, 07:24:36 pm
For more of my thoughts on this, specifically regarding how Star Ruler 2 was received, feel free to unhide the spoiler.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: sambojin on January 01, 2016, 07:55:49 pm
It would have been massively complicated against the AI, far more-so than most games in this genre.
Against other humans, and MP was where the game really shone, it was perfect. Because diplomacy and agreements were made through negotiations and messaging, not arbitrarily bound to a system. Non-abstracted diplomacy at its finest.
But in a game where you're expected to interact with the AI on some vaguely meaningful level, yeah. Things at some point have to be abstracted. Whether it's cards (abstract diplomacy: SR2), options presented (hopefully with the AI having a "reasonable but wanting to win" and not "chaos-neutral" attitude towards things, even though the player will: Civ/MoO series), buttering up and alliances (Paradox style: EUIV/CK2) or even just the other participants acting "in character" (some people are for/against some things: Alpha Centauri), there has to be abstraction at some point.
Stars! worked well against other humans, because there was no framework to be burdened by. It didn't even bother with the AI. You were at war with them, and that was that.
At least you both knew where you stood diplomatically. AI is damn hard to program, especially the diplomacy and "memory of past actions" part, even more-so if massive wars are meant to be forgiven for the sake of peace and diplomacy sometimes.
Post by: Retropunch on January 02, 2016, 06:20:16 am
But in a game where you're expected to interact with the AI on some vaguely meaningful level, yeah. Things at some point have to be abstracted. Whether it's cards (abstract diplomacy: SR2), options presented (hopefully with the AI having a "reasonable but wanting to win" and not "chaos-neutral" attitude towards things, even though the player will: Civ/MoO series), buttering up and alliances (Paradox style: EUIV/CK2) or even just the other participants acting "in character" (some people are for/against some things: Alpha Centauri), there has to be abstraction at some point.
I'd love to see a mix of those. Covert/intelligence operations would give you 'cards' you could play, whilst the options presented in diplomacy would be sensible, reasonable and not binary. Similarly, I'd hope for a similar standing system to CK2 (attacking someone just for the sake of it would be bad, casus belli and all that), characters that follow their motives, and some interesting alliance options.
Whilst it sounds like a lot, I feel that it's been severely neglected in 4x games. I'm really hopeful though, as if anyone can do it - paradox can.
Post by: gimli on January 02, 2016, 10:26:24 am
The best diplomacy system i found was in star ruler 2 with the card system, you could do lots of nifty things and gaining leverage against other empire was a thing to force a vote your way, IE: The enemy has a colony in your system, well pss a vote so they turn it to you, and if it happens you have allies who hates him they might even pitch in your favor!
I mean... Could we get a similar system without cards?
Yeah that diplo system was quite good indeed.
PS.
After reading through all of the DDs again, there is only one thing what I don't like in the game so far. The representation of the surface of the planets [The GC 3 "surface system" is much better IMO] & the planetary population. You drag and drop population units at will, like it's the my documents folder. It just feels weird to me, but maybe it's just me.
Post by: BFEL on January 02, 2016, 01:02:28 pm
The best diplomacy system i found was in star ruler 2 with the card system, you could do lots of nifty things and gaining leverage against other empire was a thing to force a vote your way, IE: The enemy has a colony in your system, well pss a vote so they turn it to you, and if it happens you have allies who hates him they might even pitch in your favor!While the system itself was kinda cool, it fell short for me mainly because it well...wasn't a diplomacy system?
I mean, it didn't actually change how other empires think of you in the slightest, it was all action and no reaction. The AI never got mad at you for taking subversive political action against them, nor did they have any reaction to more neutral/positive votes.
The ACTUAL diplomacy was all done in the same nigh-random tick box dropdown that plagued SR1. Which is to say, was entirely vestigial and likely went completely unused.
The entirety of it's ACTUAL diplomacy system could be boiled down to "are we at war? yes/no" and "are we allied/a protectorate yes/no"
And that is fucking HORRENDOUS.
I mean, I suppose it really only shines in multiplayer, but frankly when you're playing against several other real people you don't actually NEED a diplomacy system, as you all can figure out where you stand on your own.
So yes, congats to Umbra and their team for creating a wonderful system to simulate political fuckery, but DON'T YOU FUCKING DARE claim it's better then other diplomacy systems, don't claim it's better then systems with AI that actually react to what you do and have goals beyond "kill everything not me" and CERTAINLY don't put down those "utterly stagnant, banal" systems, because they ACTUALLY FUCKING SIMULATE RELATIONS BETWEEN FACTIONS, which SR2's system...does not.
Post by: Firgof Umbra on January 02, 2016, 01:16:30 pm
It also gets happier if you do things for it, like donate resources or cards - or help it pass votes.
It will even get annoyed at you if you constantly ping it with diplomatic requests and begin to ignore diplomacy entirely.
These concerns simply mean less to it than, say, the fact that you share a border or that you have a world inside their Empire's interior. This is to say they won't go to war with you simply because you flagged down their proposal to move the Galactic Mall to their area of the galaxy; it could however be a contributing factor. Also they aren't chatty so perhaps you've missed those aspects.
I've only encountered rarely an AI which has a goal other than 'destroy all other civilizations - eventually'. Even the much celebrated Civ's AI boils down to that simple mission: The AIs want to win the game. Now, granted, there are much more flavorful interactions with AIs out there - SR2 almost entirely throws out that tub despite having the water to put in it just for the sake of making things fast and easy to do for the player - but most DiploAIs are about as complex as SR2's if you remove the chat-window, forgiving the occasional preprogrammed standouts like GC2 or AIs that forsake winning the game over achieving its objective (a la The Last Federation)
Post by: Firgof Umbra on January 02, 2016, 01:32:42 pm
Post by: gimli on January 02, 2016, 03:37:08 pm
So yes, congats to Umbra and their team for creating a wonderful system to simulate political fuckery, but DON'T YOU FUCKING DARE claim it's better then other diplomacy systems, don't claim it's better then systems with AI that actually react to what you do and have goals beyond "kill everything not me" and CERTAINLY don't put down those "utterly stagnant, banal" systems, because they ACTUALLY FUCKING SIMULATE RELATIONS BETWEEN FACTIONS, which SR2's system...does not.
It's a PD game, so we will have the +- modifiers, relationship system & AI reactions in diplomacy for sure. I'm not worried, it will be good. I am only worried about the AI itself...because..yeah.. it is a PD game. :D
Post by: BFEL on January 02, 2016, 05:44:17 pm
snip
Er...sorry I guess? :P
I seriously never noticed any of that happening in any game of SR2. Would any of that happen to be new? Haven't played in awhile.
So yeah, sorry for snapping at you like that, I get worked up over things...
Also, I've been pretty much using GC2 as a standard, so I should perhaps stop doing that? I mean, I KNOW its good, but is it so good that I should see it as an outlier instead of a data point?
Post by: gimli on January 04, 2016, 11:59:31 am
"The galaxy is vast, old and unknown. New species constantly flare into existence and some are even able to take their first cautious steps towards other stars. Of those that do some are arrogant enough to assume that they are the first and only chosen. They fail to realize that others may have taken those same steps before them, others who have found amazing wonders and unraveled their secrets, others who reached the furthest edges of knowledge only to crumble away. Those others are called Fallen Empires.
These are once-glorious empires that for unknown reasons have stagnated and often fallen to infighting or crippling apathy. That which once covered hundreds of systems have shrunk to a fraction, barely held on to by superior technology and what little remains of a once glorious fleet. Fallen Empires are isolationist and will look at newer species with disinterest or outright contempt. Diplomatic attempts are futile and they will most likely attack any unknown ships entering one of their remaining systems.
Weve added Fallen Empires to the game for a couple of reasons. They have the potential to enable some really cool stories and there is a bunch of different directions we can take to ensure players get a different experience from game to game. Players should never feel confident in how a Fallen Empire may react to different events in the galaxy. If left alone they might resurge as a reaction to a galaxy-wide threat or become outraged when their most holy planets are colonized by lesser races.
Gameplay-wise the Fallen Empires can act as a potential source of advanced technology for players willing to invest the military forces required to defeat one of their fleets in battle. In Stellaris, all ships destroyed in combat will leave debris behind and through reverse engineering a player may discover the technologies required to build the weapons and components equipped by those ships. Players can also invade planets belonging to Fallen Empires, allowing them to utilize whatever advanced buildings placed there. This of course means dealing with a new species within the Empire.
While the rewards may be tempting, players may want to consider the risks before attacking a Fallen Empire. Who knows what horrors they have unearthed during the ages, what forbidden secrets their planets hold within, what captives might be unleashed should their wardens be struck down."
DD #16: "Next week the good Goosecreature will be back with a dev diary on the events and mishaps that may befall colonies and their inhabitants."
Post by: umiman on January 04, 2016, 12:43:51 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on January 04, 2016, 12:58:57 pm
Post by: Mini on January 04, 2016, 01:26:54 pm
Hmm... I think I would have preferred it if those kind of things were left to the game to naturally develop, instead of being forcibly created like that.I'm not really sure how these would develop naturally, given that they're meant to be an empire that's been around forever and then failed. I guess they would simulate the galaxy for ages before starting the game, but that would take quite a while and would require different mechanics to the standard game (otherwise the galaxy would always fill up with empires that had managed to survive).
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 04, 2016, 01:46:35 pm
Hmm... I think I would have preferred it if those kind of things were left to the game to naturally develop, instead of being forcibly created like that.How would that work? These empires are supposed to predate your own. That can't happen if everyone starts when you do.
Post by: Flying Carcass on January 04, 2016, 02:17:59 pm
Post by: Zangi on January 04, 2016, 02:21:38 pm
The game would need a VAST timescale for something like that to 'naturally' develop. Even then... by the time that would 'naturally' happen, you would be an ancient civilization too... still kicking around and terrorizing the kids.Hmm... I think I would have preferred it if those kind of things were left to the game to naturally develop, instead of being forcibly created like that.How would that work? These empires are supposed to predate your own. That can't happen if everyone starts when you do.
Given Distant World's starting settings, you could indeed give some empires a huge boost in territory/size and/or technology... and also mod in an isolationist/non-expansionist race/version of a race to fill in that role(kinda like the machine people...). That still isn't 'naturally' developed though.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 04, 2016, 02:27:25 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on January 04, 2016, 02:46:43 pm
tldr; When you retire a map the empires lose all expansionist drive and become Fallen Empires for your next game.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 04, 2016, 02:50:57 pm
Post by: Zangi on January 04, 2016, 02:56:00 pm
And yes, this would be interesting.
Post by: xaritscin on January 04, 2016, 09:47:18 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on January 04, 2016, 10:02:39 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 04, 2016, 10:39:00 pm
Post by: BFEL on January 05, 2016, 12:31:19 am
I'll take the lasers, they take Cthulu, I win on all fronts.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 05, 2016, 10:22:00 am
Because that's how we get space cultists.
Post by: BFEL on January 05, 2016, 10:25:07 am
Do you want space cultists?Yeah, it slows Cthulu down because he has to eat all the space cultists! Gives you time to research anti-Cthulu lasers.
Because that's how we get space cultists.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 05, 2016, 12:27:27 pm
Obviously you invade, take all the tech, then surrender the colony to your worst enemies.
I'll take the lasers, they take Cthulu, I win on all fronts.
Everyone takes the Cthulu.
Post by: Graknorke on January 05, 2016, 12:39:24 pm
Post by: Azazass on January 05, 2016, 08:08:41 pm
It's obvious that you should dedicate your empire to expand its reign and crush all those that oppose it.
Turn it into your leader and bring forth a new age to the galaxy.
Post by: sambojin on January 06, 2016, 10:34:21 pm
C'mon in! Enjoy!
Post by: gimli on January 11, 2016, 10:56:45 am
Next week: Game Director Henrik "Doomdark" Fåhraeus will tell to you about War, Peace, Influence and Claims!
Post by: Jopax on January 11, 2016, 01:05:09 pm
ABOUT A MONTH FROM RELEASE YOU GUYS!!!!
Tho it's safe to count that as two months, best to wait a bit for them to patch it up and stuff :D
Post by: Mini on January 11, 2016, 01:30:00 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on January 11, 2016, 01:46:06 pm
Post by: Taricus on January 11, 2016, 01:49:45 pm
Post by: Zangi on January 11, 2016, 01:58:09 pm
But yea, its more mechanics expansion... which if you consider CK2... the game would probably still not be out yet. Development Hell indeed.
Post by: Kot on January 11, 2016, 02:00:53 pm
Post by: Knave on January 11, 2016, 02:03:45 pm
Not that I'd complain if it did show up. 8)
But HoI4 has been in development forever, and is looking like it won't arrive any sooner than Q2.
Post by: Majestic7 on January 11, 2016, 04:09:20 pm
Post by: scriver on January 11, 2016, 08:44:55 pm
They get onto steam sales quickly enough... so more accurately $7-12 DLC for the slightly more patient.
But yea, its more mechanics expansion... which if you consider CK2... the game would probably still not be out yet. Development Hell indeed.
Worse, ck2 is long last the date where it's funding would've run out by now, it's running on DLC fumes these days. Without releases, it would've been cancelled years ago.
Post by: Flying Dice on January 11, 2016, 09:32:55 pm
Zero, any mechanics in a paid DLC is expansion mechanics.Common. Sense.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 11, 2016, 09:57:57 pm
that was an expansion yes. :-DZero, any mechanics in a paid DLC is expansion mechanics.Common. Sense.
Post by: Majestic7 on January 12, 2016, 03:11:55 am
Hmm, I wonder who we could collectively seduce with our sexy neckbeards to get some dworven planetary events in the game. Every game needs !!fun!!, like a planetary governor undergoing a fell mood and crafting magnificent furniture out of all the children in the colony.
Post by: Catastrophic lolcats on January 12, 2016, 03:36:23 am
This is even more true for EU4 since a lot of the mechanics in the old expansions have been dummied out (look at American Dream and Res Publica). Folding together DLC like Conquest of Paradise and Wealth of Nations would go a long way in reducing that buy-in price.
New or potential players are either going to be completely turned off by the confusing miasma of DLC or just turn to piracy (which is insanely easy with Paradox games).
Post by: Flying Dice on January 12, 2016, 03:39:19 am
I'm not sure why you two are being disingenuous about it. The free patch to vanilla which released alongside Common Sense implemented the changes to development, excluding only the mechanism by which players affected it, for which you had to pay through the nose.Maybe not one that people liked but it was an expansion.that was an expansion yes. :-DZero, any mechanics in a paid DLC is expansion mechanics.Common. Sense.
Leaving that aside specifically, most Paradox DLCs are oriented around adding mechanics which should have been included in the base game (as opposed to content expansions, the traditional purview of expansion packs and DLC). The only one for EU4 that was solidly in the realm of "bonus extra content" was CoP.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 12, 2016, 05:09:34 am
Post by: Mini on January 12, 2016, 06:04:02 am
Post by: Leyic on January 12, 2016, 07:15:46 am
...adding mechanics which should have been included in the base game (as opposed to content expansions, the traditional purview of expansion packs and DLC).If new mechanics aren't allowed in DLC, then every dev would have to push a sequel anytime they wanted to add something new. Then you'd either be complaining about how Paradox is charging full price for EU2016 when it doesn't have much of anything new compared to EU2015, or you'd be complaining about how the game has become stagnant, not having received any updates in the 2+ years since its release.
Post by: Culise on January 12, 2016, 08:33:54 am
Dice reckons it wasn't an expansion, and that you're being disingenuous about that.Specifically, as far as I can tell, he's asserting that because key features of the expansion pack (i.e., development) were implemented in the free patch for compatibility purposes and only unlocked by the corresponding expansion pack, that they were in fact free features and should have never been included in the expansion pack in the first place. This, I believe, misses the point however - they were only included for compatibility in multiplayer, and if they had not been developed for the expansion pack, they would not have been in the free patch at all. One of the major reasons for Paradox's shift to the present model was to reduce reliance on purchasing every expansion pack and maintain a single code base that can be regularly updated. If Paradox had done the logical thing according to this and *not* included development or other similar features in the free patches as well as the DLC, it seems to me that due to the scope of the changes involved, each and every single DLC purchase would be completely necessary if you ever wanted to play multiplayer. However, this seems like it would be a far more unfriendly DLC policy, so I'm hoping that's not what Flying Dice is actually getting at.
Post by: gimli on January 12, 2016, 08:36:06 am
It's almost definitely not going to be released in a month. If it were, there would be way more videos of it around, there might have been a closed beta (maybe even a demo, like with EU4 and CK2), and the screenshots wouldn't say "ALPHA" (which comes before beta, which comes before release). It's much more likely for it to be released towards the end of the year, if not next year.
Yep, I think it's going to be released in Q2 or Q3 actually.
Anyway I can't wait for the next DD, since it's about diplomacy. I hope that one of the upcoming 3-4 DDs will be about the planetery invasions. I really want to see that how complex will that be @ release. I suppose it will be quite simplistic, and they will upgrade the system in an expansion. Who wouldn't buy an expansion which focuses on planetary battles? Heh.
Post by: umiman on January 12, 2016, 12:11:31 pm
I don't think there has ever been a game that has done planetary battles well simply because of how absurd the simulation would be.It's almost definitely not going to be released in a month. If it were, there would be way more videos of it around, there might have been a closed beta (maybe even a demo, like with EU4 and CK2), and the screenshots wouldn't say "ALPHA" (which comes before beta, which comes before release). It's much more likely for it to be released towards the end of the year, if not next year.
Yep, I think it's going to be released in Q2 or Q3 actually.
Anyway I can't wait for the next DD, since it's about diplomacy. I hope that one of the upcoming 3-4 DDs will be about the planetery invasions. I really want to see that how complex will that be @ release. I suppose it will be quite simplistic, and they will upgrade the system in an expansion. Who wouldn't buy an expansion which focuses on planetary battles? Heh.
I mean, imagine if earth had to invade another earth. Like, literally conquer the whole thing enough that the whole planet is flying our (superior earth) flag. We'd need like... tens of millions of troops at the very least. Then we'd be fighting for decades if not centuries conquering every single region. Just attacking a portion of earth (say the US) would take an army so large it'd qualify as a separate global entity. And then after that comes the peacekeeping and assimilation efforts which would probably take just as long if not way longer. Just the logistics of such an action is leagues larger than any game has ever dreamed of doing so far.
And it's actually significantly easier when it's humans vs humans. After all, we have the same habitat considerations and more or less the same cultural mores, etc. What if we're the Gorkian Morg Race of Aberdeeks. What the fuck. We don't even breathe the same air, have completely different pressure and radiation resistances and we exclusively eat the borongian dispatches of lesser races. Also we can only communicate in eight person. What kind of insane levels of warmongering would it take for something completely alien to invade another planet?
It's always irked me how games, movies, and such all simplify such a huge undertaking. Especially when it's like, oh my one single scout ship has blockaded an entire planetary system. =|
Of course, I don't think any of that is really feasible to do in a game so... meh.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 12, 2016, 12:31:01 pm
Maybe it can work when planetary governments have nigh-absolute power over their populations (which seems like a common conceit). An invading force then just needs to perform a coup, leaving most of that local enforcement infrastructure in place. Similar to how, in CK2 (or feudalism in general) you can win a war for a kingdom, and acquire the fealty of all the dukes. They may try to revolt later, but the easiest course of action for them is to keep their heads down and accept the change in upper management.
Like the Combine in Half Life being essentially humans, just with genemods and new orders. Or how in MoO2 feudal races are assimilated instantly, because the planetary governors see absolutely no problem with accepting new overlords.
In Star Control 2 the Ur-Quan offered considerable autonomy in exchange for fealty, with the alternative being nuclear annihilation. Basically a coup from orbit. (There was also an option to sit out the rest of the war under plotonium shields)
In short, I think planetary "invasions" are most realistic when they're coups which leave the locals in charge.
Post by: umiman on January 12, 2016, 01:20:34 pm
That's true, the scale is completely beyond war in actual history...More or less.
Maybe it can work when planetary governments have nigh-absolute power over their populations (which seems like a common conceit). An invading force then just needs to perform a coup, leaving most of that local enforcement infrastructure in place. Similar to how, in CK2 (or feudalism in general) you can win a war for a kingdom, and acquire the fealty of all the dukes. They may try to revolt later, but the easiest course of action for them is to keep their heads down and accept the change in upper management.
Like the Combine in Half Life being essentially humans, just with genemods and new orders. Or how in MoO2 feudal races are assimilated instantly, because the planetary governors see absolutely no problem with accepting new overlords.
In Star Control 2 the Ur-Quan offered considerable autonomy in exchange for fealty, with the alternative being nuclear annihilation. Basically a coup from orbit. (There was also an option to sit out the rest of the war under plotonium shields)
In short, I think planetary "invasions" are most realistic when they're coups which leave the locals in charge.
So when I heard Paradox was doing this, I had a lot of hope they'd at least do the political parts right and it certainly looks like they are. With actual rebellions and such.
Post by: gimli on January 12, 2016, 01:25:35 pm
I don't think there has ever been a game that has done planetary battles well simply because of how absurd the simulation would be.It's almost definitely not going to be released in a month. If it were, there would be way more videos of it around, there might have been a closed beta (maybe even a demo, like with EU4 and CK2), and the screenshots wouldn't say "ALPHA" (which comes before beta, which comes before release). It's much more likely for it to be released towards the end of the year, if not next year.
Yep, I think it's going to be released in Q2 or Q3 actually.
Anyway I can't wait for the next DD, since it's about diplomacy. I hope that one of the upcoming 3-4 DDs will be about the planetery invasions. I really want to see that how complex will that be @ release. I suppose it will be quite simplistic, and they will upgrade the system in an expansion. Who wouldn't buy an expansion which focuses on planetary battles? Heh.
I mean, imagine if earth had to invade another earth. Like, literally conquer the whole thing enough that the whole planet is flying our (superior earth) flag. We'd need like... tens of millions of troops at the very least. Then we'd be fighting for decades if not centuries conquering every single region. Just attacking a portion of earth (say the US) would take an army so large it'd qualify as a separate global entity. And then after that comes the peacekeeping and assimilation efforts which would probably take just as long if not way longer. Just the logistics of such an action is leagues larger than any game has ever dreamed of doing so far.
And it's actually significantly easier when it's humans vs humans. After all, we have the same habitat considerations and more or less the same cultural mores, etc. What if we're the Gorkian Morg Race of Aberdeeks. What the fuck. We don't even breathe the same air, have completely different pressure and radiation resistances and we exclusively eat the borongian dispatches of lesser races. Also we can only communicate in eight person. What kind of insane levels of warmongering would it take for something completely alien to invade another planet?
It's always irked me how games, movies, and such all simplify such a huge undertaking. Especially when it's like, oh my one single scout ship has blockaded an entire planetary system. =|
Of course, I don't think any of that is really feasible to do in a game so... meh.
True and agreed, but it must be simulated somehow...the more variables, the better. Ex.: racial attributes; techs -> weapons, armors, shields; # of troops; "special" units like mechs, vehicles, monsters of war [for the Pacific Rim fans! :D] with their unique stats and abilities; global planetary modifiers like atmosphere & temperature etc. etc. You got the picture I guess. It can be done, but it would be a lot of work. I think that the v1.0 system will be fairly simplistic, it will be all about the # of troops & techs, but we shall see.
PS. As I heard Emperor of the Fading Suns was a very popular game and it had a tactical engine for planetary combat, but personally I am not a fan of it, since it would be "extremely unrealistic".
Post by: Majestic7 on January 12, 2016, 02:52:47 pm
Post by: gimli on January 12, 2016, 03:27:29 pm
Post by: Teneb on January 12, 2016, 03:31:02 pm
I think that a CK2/EU4 siege/occupation system could work if there would be surface maps [like in Galciv] & regions [# of regions based on the size of the planet] for each and every planet. Region = CK2/EU4 province on a global scale. The vanilla min max value should be around 4-20. They could add random events tied to this system [ex. x% chance that the remaining regions will throw in the towel if you control x% of the planet, global/regional revolts etc.]Yeah, I could see that working. On a homeworld of any industrialized species it would be pretty hard since you'd have to "siege" each square, which could take a while. Sort of like siege a province with a high-level fort in EU4.
Post by: Dutrius on January 12, 2016, 03:33:40 pm
Post by: Teneb on January 12, 2016, 03:35:14 pm
Post by: umiman on January 12, 2016, 03:48:29 pm
For example, MoO2 had an incredible cutscene (back in the day) of you cutting a planet in half with the stellar converter.
Post by: Toaster on January 12, 2016, 04:56:33 pm
Post by: umiman on January 12, 2016, 05:42:28 pm
Just off the top of my head, Stardrive and Stardrive 2 don't have any way to obliterate a planet. Star Ruler 2 didn't have it (but I heard it got added into as a patch). Endless Space completely lacks this ability, which added exponentially to why I dislike that game. I'm pretty sure you couldn't destroy planets in Sins of a Solar Empire too, but they added it in as an expansion.
Post by: Cruxador on January 12, 2016, 06:36:03 pm
Post by: Flying Carcass on January 12, 2016, 06:45:33 pm
Destroying planets is a waste of resources anyway though. Much better to just engineer some super virus that quickly kills the alien sophists that live there, and then take the planet for yourself when they're dead.
It should still be an option though, especially if mineral resources could then be extracted from the debris.
Post by: gimli on January 12, 2016, 06:47:19 pm
Post by: Sirus on January 12, 2016, 07:10:34 pm
You'd think so, but so many devs seem to have completely forgotten this.Star Ruler didn't need it, really. With enough firepower, you can destroy planets, stars, whatever you wanted. What SR2 lacked was a dedicated planet-buster.
Just off the top of my head, Stardrive and Stardrive 2 don't have any way to obliterate a planet. Star Ruler 2 didn't have it (but I heard it got added into as a patch). Endless Space completely lacks this ability, which added exponentially to why I dislike that game. I'm pretty sure you couldn't destroy planets in Sins of a Solar Empire too, but they added it in as an expansion.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 12, 2016, 07:14:16 pm
What SR2 lacked was a dedicated planet-buster.Eh? SR2 had a weapon specifically designed to destroy planets and stars. There is even a special where you can revive an ancient planetbuster.
Post by: gimli on January 12, 2016, 07:23:11 pm
What SR2 lacked was a dedicated planet-buster.Eh? SR2 had a weapon specifically designed to destroy planets and stars. There is even a special where you can revive an ancient planetbuster.
Graviton Condenser
Post by: Majestic7 on January 13, 2016, 01:07:57 am
Post by: Leyic on January 13, 2016, 01:59:14 am
Constructing Dyson swarms/spheres would require dismantling planetary masses for material. Presumably such technology could be weaponized as well. Of course, Dyson stuff and FTL travel are not a logical combination. If you have the whole universe at your fingertips, why would you bother with turtling in a single solar system? So I'd mainly see Dyson things as something a Fallen Empire would construct after turning inwards and giving up star travel.The point of a Dyson sphere is to capture 100% of the energy produced by a star, not to turtle inside it. A galaxy-spanning empire that doesn't build Dyson spheres is being inefficient, presuming there are no better fantasy energy sources that could be harnessed.
Post by: Majestic7 on January 13, 2016, 02:22:35 am
Post by: Rolan7 on January 13, 2016, 02:37:31 am
With energy you can power weapons, shields, terraforming, hive planets, whatever you want. Once FTL is cracked, energy is basically the last limiting factor. There's a reason it's the currency of Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, and can win the game once you have enough.
Post by: Dutrius on January 13, 2016, 08:02:42 am
There are several major problems of building a structure that large:
- Materials required. You'd need to completely extract the metals from several planets and moons to get enough raw materials.
- Comets and asteroids (or any other body on an elliptical/parabolic/hyperbolic trajectory). If you don't spot and stop these things in time, they are going to make life miserable for the repair crews.
- Finally, and this is the biggest problem, Gravity. It will be a major pain to prevent tidal forces from messing with the structure during construction. Even worse, as soon as the structure completely surrounds the star, the net force of gravitational attraction from the star becomes zero, causing the structure to start to drift. What do you think happens if/when the structure drifts into the star it was built around?
Post by: Majestic7 on January 13, 2016, 08:52:39 am
...and if they were, that equals !!FUN!! which is the right thing to desire! I find the idea of a Dyson sphere falling to a fate similar to the Swedish warship Vasa hilarious.
Post by: Descan on January 13, 2016, 05:52:40 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 13, 2016, 05:55:15 pm
But big microwave energy beams are scary/bad and also potential weapons
Post by: Leyic on January 13, 2016, 06:22:37 pm
Though none of those are unknown problems. In fiction, they're either glossed over, or they're acknowledged and the fictional fuck-huge star-blanket is instead a swarm, literally trillions of satellites/hab-orbitals with solar sails capturing the energy. Looking like a giant billowing cloud, moving with the stellar wind.Solar radiation pressure, not solar wind, and you want the satellites in a circular orbit or hover as it won't do you any good if they're pushed away from the star.
Just a few close orbiting solar sats beaming energy back to earth could take care of our energy needs, and we could build such things right now.We could build such things right now only if sufficient funds were appropriated for the necessary research and development required for flight qualification. As a safety mechanism, the transmitters listen for a directional signal from the receiver so they shut off if they point the wrong direction by even a slight amount. Besides which, the frequency used is not the one that excites water molecules. The problem is that a sufficiently powerful microwave source would interfere with all the other microwave signals used for satellite communication in that part of the sky.
But big microwave energy beams are scary/bad and also potential weapons
Anyhow, the conversation was about a galactic empire, not present day energy needs. Could you imagine the diesel-equivalent mpg you'd get from a military-grade FTL drive?
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 13, 2016, 07:02:54 pm
Unfortunately it's not quick or cheap so nobody likes it. :P
Post by: gimli on January 18, 2016, 10:49:42 am
"This week we will talk about the Ship Designer. Last week we said that this week would be about War, Peace, Influence and Claims, but due to some really good (and secret) reasons we have decided to postpone that Dev Diary for a later date."
Oh well. ::)
Some interesting stuff:
"For military ships, you can also set what combat computer to use on the ship, which affects how they behave in combat. Different combat computers can be unlocked by technologies."
"Every ship consists of at least one section that you can place different components on ... Some sections also have a hangar slot, but more on those in a later dev diary..." -> Fighters?
"In the mid and late game you may also use the designer to customize your military defense stations and make sure that noone will ever be able to penetrate your solar system defenses."
Next week: "Next week we will talk about fleet combat in Stellaris!"
Post by: Cruxador on January 18, 2016, 09:13:08 pm
Quote
We also have some required components depending on the class of ship you are trying to build. One of the basics is what FTL capability your ship has, so you may build some ships with warp and others with wormhole FTL. It is, however, only possible to have ships with the same type of FTL in the same fleet.It's kind of disappointing to hear that it works like this. Previously it sounded like the FTL was going to have three different paradigms, and wormholes were generated by free-floating things in space, not part of your ship. It would have been nice if we weren't forced into such a narrow paradigm, and the idea of an ultimate endgame ship being able to use all three was cool in its own right. Being unable to group together ships with different FTL seems like a meta/micromanagement way to discourage the use of multiple types of FTL as well.
Post by: jocan2003 on January 18, 2016, 09:25:48 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 18, 2016, 10:34:16 pm
Well... the ship designer makes me think of swords of the stars 2... dont know if i am that happy bout it.... Man when will we see something like space empire ship designer? or other game wich seem to be much more freeform in module usage etc. Hell i LOVED star ruler way to handle ship building... man i really wish it would come back in the futur.
Frankly, Star Ruler's ship designer is what really made the game great. Such a shame to see it go to waste... I have yet to see another game rival it.
Post by: sambojin on January 19, 2016, 03:10:37 am
Capturing ships or reverse engineering their drives hasn't been entirely ruled out, but I wouldn't even mind if it was.
It also lets your own race feel special, giving an outlook and worldview simply by the way they travel. In xenophobic warmongering style, of course.
Post by: Majestic7 on January 19, 2016, 03:19:17 am
Post by: Chosrau on January 19, 2016, 09:03:35 am
Post by: Rolan7 on January 19, 2016, 10:06:36 am
I think that came up in one of the dev diaries before. The gate stations just open a wormhole towards the target system. They don't need to link up with another station in the target system to do so.That's how I remember it.
I also seem to remember an implication that enemy ships could go through, yeah, and I'm really curious as to how that might be implemented. Better keep those gate-hubs secure!
Post by: gimli on January 19, 2016, 11:36:20 am
Well... the ship designer makes me think of swords of the stars 2... dont know if i am that happy bout it.... Man when will we see something like space empire ship designer? or other game wich seem to be much more freeform in module usage etc. Hell i LOVED star ruler way to handle ship building... man i really wish it would come back in the futur.
Frankly, Star Ruler's ship designer is what really made the game great. Such a shame to see it go to waste... I have yet to see another game rival it.
True, it would be awesome to have a ship builder system like that in Stellaris, but the chance to have something like this in an expansion is like....zero. It would be enormous work to make the necessary changes.
Perhaps they will consider it for Stellaris 2.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 19, 2016, 02:51:00 pm
Post by: umiman on January 19, 2016, 07:25:08 pm
I think the focus is too different, Star Ruler was all about massive armadas duking it out. Stellaris seems a little more well-rounded in it's approach to galactic conquest. I mean heck, if you felt like it you could go full KOTOR in Star Ruler and design massive Star Forges that harvested suns and asteroids to churn out swarms of robotic fighers and whole fleets of battleships controlled by advanced A.I.You could?
I always got super pissed off at the Newtonian physics that I never bothered to play through Star Ruler.
Post by: BFEL on January 19, 2016, 07:33:10 pm
I always got super pissed off at the Newtonian physics that I never bothered to play through Star Ruler.*I* always got super pissed at JUST. NOT. SUCCEEDING. EVER.
Star Ruler was a game I WANTED to like, but the basics of the bloody system hurt my brain so much that I lost 100% of the time to trivial A.I.
Also the ship design was kinda shit because you were ALWAYS horrifically limited in how much space you could use.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 19, 2016, 08:42:25 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 19, 2016, 09:10:02 pm
I think the focus is too different, Star Ruler was all about massive armadas duking it out. Stellaris seems a little more well-rounded in it's approach to galactic conquest. I mean heck, if you felt like it you could go full KOTOR in Star Ruler and design massive Star Forges that harvested suns and asteroids to churn out swarms of robotic fighers and whole fleets of battleships controlled by advanced A.I.You could?
I always got super pissed off at the Newtonian physics that I never bothered to play through Star Ruler.
You could, I once forgot to turn off automated production and ended up with 3,000 extra fighters in a backwater world once troubled by pirates.
I always got super pissed off at the Newtonian physics that I never bothered to play through Star Ruler.*I* always got super pissed at JUST. NOT. SUCCEEDING. EVER.
Star Ruler was a game I WANTED to like, but the basics of the bloody system hurt my brain so much that I lost 100% of the time to trivial A.I.
Also the ship design was kinda shit because you were ALWAYS horrifically limited in how much space you could use.
Different strokes for different folks, but it seemed rather balanced to me. Do you really want to be able to just make your ship perfect at everything? Even with the current system you could make insanely powerful ships.
Post by: gimli on January 25, 2016, 10:24:08 am
It looks impressive! 8)
PS.
Fighters have been confirmed!
"Strike crafts are different from the other weapon types since they are actually smaller ships that leave their mothership. Cruisers and Battleships can in some cases have a Hangar weapon slot available, in which you may place a type of strike craft. Currently, we have two types of craft; fighters and bombers. Fighters will fire upon ships, missiles and other strike craft. Bombers however may not fire on other strike craft or missiles, but they will do more damage than fighters against capital ships. Point-defense weapons can detect incoming missiles and strike-crafts and shoot them down. These weapons may also damage hostile ships, if they are close enough, but will do significantly less damage against those."
PPS.
Ohhh I like this!:
"It is very possible that your fleet might end up in combat with multiple fleets. This means that you can have a combat with three different empires that are all hostile to each other. To help you keep track of everything that happens we have a combat view, which will appear as soon as a combat is initiated. This view will list you (and any other friendlies or neutrals) on the left side and every hostile on the right side. The combat view is currently being reworked, so you will get to see that interface at a later date, but the idea is to provide you with crucial feedback on how effective your weapons and defenses are."
Post by: sprinkled chariot on January 25, 2016, 10:34:59 am
I think the focus is too different, Star Ruler was all about massive armadas duking it out. Stellaris seems a little more well-rounded in it's approach to galactic conquest. I mean heck, if you felt like it you could go full KOTOR in Star Ruler and design massive Star Forges that harvested suns and asteroids to churn out swarms of robotic fighers and whole fleets of battleships controlled by advanced A.I.You could?
I always got super pissed off at the Newtonian physics that I never bothered to play through Star Ruler.
You could, I once forgot to turn off automated production and ended up with 3,000 extra fighters in a backwater world once troubled by pirates.I always got super pissed off at the Newtonian physics that I never bothered to play through Star Ruler.*I* always got super pissed at JUST. NOT. SUCCEEDING. EVER.
Star Ruler was a game I WANTED to like, but the basics of the bloody system hurt my brain so much that I lost 100% of the time to trivial A.I.
Also the ship design was kinda shit because you were ALWAYS horrifically limited in how much space you could use.
Different strokes for different folks, but it seemed rather balanced to me. Do you really want to be able to just make your ship perfect at everything? Even with the current system you could make insanely powerful ships.
How will you call space strategy good, if it is without ability to make pinnacle of technology great planet sized battleship with even toilet paper there being some nanotechnological miracle , while citizens of hundred worlds starve and die horribly to mine minerals for it and cry, as their children are harvested to be turned into crew.
Post by: gimli on January 26, 2016, 10:34:04 am
Post by: redwallzyl on January 28, 2016, 06:31:16 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZy-BiWWYAAzBJm.png:large)
Post by: BFEL on January 28, 2016, 10:41:15 pm
Its not "I can't make a ship perfect at everything" it was "I can't win in any aspect of the game ever"I always got super pissed off at the Newtonian physics that I never bothered to play through Star Ruler.*I* always got super pissed at JUST. NOT. SUCCEEDING. EVER.
Star Ruler was a game I WANTED to like, but the basics of the bloody system hurt my brain so much that I lost 100% of the time to trivial A.I.
Also the ship design was kinda shit because you were ALWAYS horrifically limited in how much space you could use.
Different strokes for different folks, but it seemed rather balanced to me. Do you really want to be able to just make your ship perfect at everything? Even with the current system you could make insanely powerful ships.
I would be consistently out-researched, out-resourced, AND out-gunned ALL AT THE SAME TIME, FOREVER. Against trivial A.I.
In all my time playing I literally never destroyed one enemy ship. Not a fucking one.
And I'm STILL not sure what I was doing wrong.
Imagine playing a game where you constantly get CRUSHED for no reason discernible to you.
THAT is why I don't play Star Ruler.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on January 28, 2016, 10:49:26 pm
Edit: And they made a sequel! Is the sequel better?
Post by: BFEL on January 28, 2016, 11:13:52 pm
OOOoh space game with Newtonian physics!? I will have to look into that...The sequel is HILARIOUSLY different. To the point I can actually mostly play it. Ish.
Edit: And they made a sequel! Is the sequel better?
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 29, 2016, 12:06:02 am
OOOoh space game with Newtonian physics!? I will have to look into that...The sequel is HILARIOUSLY different. To the point I can actually mostly play it. Ish.
Edit: And they made a sequel! Is the sequel better?
Play the original first, they're wildly different games. As far as difficultly goes, IDK. I was out-researched in some aspects, but then my navies focused most of their firepower in high-alpha waves or dispersed it in massive swarms of fighters. So, I was always able to hold my borders.
Post by: Silfurdreki on January 29, 2016, 05:10:39 am
awesome mushroom people screenshot. i would totally play that race.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Ahaha, the name of the empire means "The Amanita (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanita)s of Eternity". The particular individual in the image is supposedly Overlord Poisonous I. Their race is just called Amanitas.
Post by: Lossmar on January 30, 2016, 05:37:28 am
awesome mushroom people screenshot. i would totally play that race.Playing something other than humans ?? Heresy is strong it this one !Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Its not "I can't make a ship perfect at everything" it was "I can't win in any aspect of the game ever"I always got super pissed off at the Newtonian physics that I never bothered to play through Star Ruler.*I* always got super pissed at JUST. NOT. SUCCEEDING. EVER.
Star Ruler was a game I WANTED to like, but the basics of the bloody system hurt my brain so much that I lost 100% of the time to trivial A.I.
Also the ship design was kinda shit because you were ALWAYS horrifically limited in how much space you could use.
Different strokes for different folks, but it seemed rather balanced to me. Do you really want to be able to just make your ship perfect at everything? Even with the current system you could make insanely powerful ships.
I would be consistently out-researched, out-resourced, AND out-gunned ALL AT THE SAME TIME, FOREVER. Against trivial A.I.
In all my time playing I literally never destroyed one enemy ship. Not a fucking one.
And I'm STILL not sure what I was doing wrong.
Imagine playing a game where you constantly get CRUSHED for no reason discernible to you.
THAT is why I don't play Star Ruler.
Its probaly the fact that Star Ruler is so hard on this whole unstable equilibrium... AI is simply better at controlling multiple colonies, constantly churning out colony ships, exploring etc. Even with mods it was totally absurd. Shame, because game ( especially the scope of it ) was amazing.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on January 30, 2016, 10:27:36 pm
I don't know which one I like better, actually. I have to agree about star ruler 1: It's an insane amount of micromanagement, without enough tools to help you. Pretty much impossible to keep track of everything.
Star ruler 2 is far more polished, more mainstream, but still has the core of what made it good, in my opinion. I don't like the diplomacy thing they added, or the planet leveling up system weirdness, but the ship creation is far, FAR better, as well as fleet management. Fleet management is so much easier, holy shit.
So yeah, 2 is far less micro and pain, while 1 has the insane goodness if you really want to get into it. Looks like it's easy to mod 2 as well, so I'll probably do that at some point.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 30, 2016, 11:40:38 pm
Post by: Puzzlemaker on January 31, 2016, 10:08:42 am
The diplomacy in 2 can be a lot of fun in multiplayer
Yeah, it may be because I don't actually understand how it works fully yet.
Post by: gimli on February 01, 2016, 10:16:19 am
Stellaris Dev Diary #19 - Diplomacy & Trade (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-19-diplomacy-trade.905407).
Next week's DD: "Next dev diary will be written by Doomdark, expanding further upon War & Peace." 8)
Post by: Cicero on February 01, 2016, 11:25:47 am
Post by: Toaster on February 01, 2016, 11:31:08 am
Post by: Cicero on February 01, 2016, 11:52:57 am
It was confirmed to be released this MONTH. 23rd was it?
I don't buy the Febuary launch rumours, there hasn't been enough advertising for that to seem realistic to me. I imagine Paradox is going to want to go very mass-market with this release in order to further widen their fanbase to those who may have been turned off by the history theme of their previous games (just a guess on my part)
Post by: gimli on February 01, 2016, 11:57:11 am
If I would have to guess about the release date...10% chance for a Q1 release [march] ; 70% for Q2 and 20% for Q3. IMO.
Post by: Toaster on February 01, 2016, 12:00:15 pm
*Yes, they're getting better, but still.
Post by: Majestic7 on February 01, 2016, 01:22:22 pm
Post by: Zangi on February 01, 2016, 03:12:30 pm
Post by: Cruxador on February 01, 2016, 03:44:07 pm
Henrik Fåhraeus
So in other words, although it may look flashy, Stellaris is going to really lower the bar for depth even further.
Hmmm.... wonder if there is an option to start as an uplifted Protectorate/Vassal of a larger Empire...Maybe in DLC. At launch, the start situation is classic 4x, which means synchronous and boring as possible.
Post by: ndkid on February 01, 2016, 04:22:29 pm
Given that they originally had HOI IV getting out in 2015, and now it's looking like no earlier than Q2 2016, and given realities of how long "the last 10%" of any software project takes, I think I would take the over if you set the Over/Under before September 1.I bet one burned dwarven child that the release is in September or October.They claim to be doing the last 10%-ish right now, so I highly doubt it'll be that long.
Post by: Retropunch on February 01, 2016, 05:38:25 pm
"it doesnt go quite as deep as EU IV"
Henrik Fåhraeus
So in other words, although it may look flashy, Stellaris is going to really lower the bar for depth even further.
I am getting pretty worried about this really. They're not putting espionage in and the characters don't interact, there's no tactics to the combat and they've been pretty coy on a lot of other stuff.
It's not that I expected it to be CK2 in space exactly, or that it won't be fun even without the stuff that they're not putting in, it's just that I don't think they realized that people wanted a proper paradox game in space rather than just another 4x game which is flashy but ultimately shallow.
Post by: Cruxador on February 01, 2016, 11:13:53 pm
it's just that I don't think they realized that people wanted a proper paradox game in space rather than just another 4x game which is flashy but ultimately shallow.Rather, I think that their existing fanbase isn't really their main target audience. It's aiming to decisively claim the throne of space 4x, which is a hotly contested title, and perhaps the most coveted one in strategy gaming now. But to get a big market, the common adage of game design is that you must appeal to folks who would be turned off by complication. So they tell us they've got pops like Vicky 2, but in fact they have one "pop" per province, who has a species and a position on the four values sliders, but nothing like a religion, a sense of needs being fulfilled or not, no diversity within that province, and likely not even population numbers.
Espionage will likely be DLC, and religion's fertile ground for that as well, but the lackluster pops, the lackluster characters (basically the MoO2-style leaders; just modifiers that you stick somewhere), and probably other lackluster things that we don't know about, are inherent parts of the game's fundamental structure, and are unlikely to get a post-release DLC improvement for a long time. CK2 has been out for four years and they're just now improving on the council. Although to be fair it wasn't that bad to begin with and they improved the technology barely over a year after it was released. On the other hand, EU4 is still based entirely on mana pools.
Post by: Persus13 on February 01, 2016, 11:57:15 pm
Post by: Culise on February 02, 2016, 12:01:13 am
Post by: Majestic7 on February 02, 2016, 02:57:59 am
Regarding religion, I really don't see it being relevant in a space age. Especially so when there are other species involved. Would they have religions at all or would they be identifiable as religions by our standards? Religions are, as a phenomenon, clearly tied to the brain structure of Homo Sapiens. After all there have been several experiments - such as the God-Helmet - where religious experiences have been produced with scientific methods. As such, I think the whole value system is enough.
Post by: gimli on February 02, 2016, 08:22:08 am
Hmmm.... wonder if there is an option to start as an uplifted Protectorate/Vassal of a larger Empire...
I am not sure that we can start as a vassal in the vanilla game or not, but a player can be a Vassal to another Empire (human or AI) and still play. (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-19-diplomacy-trade.905407/page-5#post-20586675) If the player is integrated/diplo-annexed the game is lost however.
Even if we can't start the game as a vassal, they will "enable it" in a patch or DLC/expansion for sure.
"it doesnt go quite as deep as EU IV"
Henrik Fåhraeus
So in other words, although it may look flashy, Stellaris is going to really lower the bar for depth even further.
I am getting pretty worried about this really. They're not putting espionage in and the characters don't interact, there's no tactics to the combat and they've been pretty coy on a lot of other stuff.
It's not that I expected it to be CK2 in space exactly, or that it won't be fun even without the stuff that they're not putting in, it's just that I don't think they realized that people wanted a proper paradox game in space rather than just another 4x game which is flashy but ultimately shallow.
I am not worried at all. Espionage will be added in an expansion or DLC, it was pretty much confirmed..as for character interaction: I agree with this dev (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/characters.881969/#post-20007786), but they have plans to expand the system anyway [..it was posted by a dev, but I can't find it on the PD forum atm, because the sub-forum search is kinda bugged.], but it won't have a complex system, like the one what we have in CK2. now. I suppose they will enable char interaction in an exp./DLC, but it will be pretty basic. We shall see.
Post by: Majestic7 on February 02, 2016, 08:44:34 am
Post by: gimli on February 02, 2016, 08:50:06 am
If it works like other Paradox games, you can switch nations mid-game. So you could uplift Tentacular Catgirls into spacefaring age, make them your protectorate, save the game, then load the game as Tentacular Catgirls, thus playing the protectorate of your previous nation.
Oh yeah, perhaps it will work like that in Stellaris as well...and while we are at it, some more infos (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-15-fallen-empires.900744/page-8#post-20441282).
Q: Can you play as a fallen empire? Or atleast tag switch?
A: Though they are not designed to be played, you can tag switch to them. Also in the setup there is flag "is_playable" with currently is set to = no. But if you just switch to "yes", then they turn up in the Species creation wizard as an option.
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 02, 2016, 08:54:44 am
Post by: gimli on February 02, 2016, 10:07:15 am
Sounds like they're making it very open to modding at least
Hell yeah, but it's a PD game, so that is expected. PCI interview (http://www.pcinvasion.com/stellaris-interview-henrik-fahraeus-on-taking-paradox-into-space). ->
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolan7 on February 02, 2016, 01:43:00 pm
Is there a 4x where religion is a big deal?Castles 2: Siege and Conquest, an old DOS 4x, had the papacy as a unique side-faction. It was interesting, kinda a force for peace and tempering expansion. Basically, if you conquered territory from a faction which was in good standing with the church, the church got more and more upset with you. This had to be mitigated by tithing resources, or even ceding entire counties to it.
The ceding had some tactical possibilities, too - enemy lord kicking your ass, but you only share a single border? Cede that province, and it essentially became a wall no one dares attack. Plus the church loves you, and starts frowning at the other guy.
Why care what the church thinks, though? Well three reasons:
1) The papacy is the only faction that's usually at peace, so it quickly grows an absurdly large army. Particularly since everyone is tithing it resources. Fortunately it almost ever uses these defensively.
The papacy's opinion of you is a large portion of your "right to rule". You don't have to conquer the whole map, just get that score high enough and claim the kingdom - the church actually crowns you.
If you let your standing fall too low, you become excommunicated. Other lords refuse to negotiate with you, you're fair game for conquest, and your *own people* suddenly plummet to 0 morale. It's rough.
... But it's actually survivable, and it only happens once. If you pick a good time to do it, and spam festivals for a few months, you can actually recover and be free of the church's influence. Essentially an anti-pope situation I guess, though it doesn't explicitly say that. You're still at war with everybody forever, but it can work in the end-game.
Post by: Cruxador on February 03, 2016, 03:48:54 pm
and March of the Eagles (for ??)EU4
Post by: gimli on February 08, 2016, 10:25:55 am
"Hello everyone!
For todays dev diary, I thought Id talk about a crucial part of Stellaris; waging wars and making peace, because as you know, not all ETs are nice... The system is different from most strategy games out there, but should be familiar to anyone who has played a Paradox Development Studio title. In fact, it is probably most reminiscent of how these things work in the Europa Universalis games."
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Next week: " Thats all for this week folks, stay tuned next week for Administrative Sectors!
Post by: Reverie on February 08, 2016, 10:27:45 am
This game can't release soon enough >________>
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 08, 2016, 10:29:38 am
Post by: Teneb on February 08, 2016, 11:32:30 am
Post by: Reverie on February 08, 2016, 11:36:04 am
One thing that wasn't mentioned: in this last dev diary, the alpha tags on the screenshots are not present, unlike every other DD.Maybe they just forgot to add them. Going into beta would be big, exciting news worth sharing.
Post by: gimli on February 08, 2016, 11:43:11 am
One thing that wasn't mentioned
..and here is another! :D
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 08, 2016, 11:46:45 am
Post by: Rolan7 on February 08, 2016, 11:53:43 am
Post by: Descan on February 08, 2016, 01:11:02 pm
Post by: Glloyd on February 08, 2016, 04:19:06 pm
Post by: Lukeinator on February 08, 2016, 05:30:37 pm
Was it Victoria 2 where if you got an independent Jan Mayen or something along those lines, your culture would change to polar bears?Yeah. There also is a console command in EU4 that causes Jan Mayen to spawn with about 50,000 units.
Post by: Teneb on February 08, 2016, 05:32:58 pm
I think one of the HoI games has a command to spawn an alien invasion.Was it Victoria 2 where if you got an independent Jan Mayen or something along those lines, your culture would change to polar bears?Yeah. There also is a console command in EU4 that causes Jan Mayen to spawn with about 50,000 units.
Post by: Orange Wizard on February 09, 2016, 09:43:30 pm
They get a bunch of other ridiculous bonuses as well, it's actually kinda fun to try (and inevitably fail) to fight them offWas it Victoria 2 where if you got an independent Jan Mayen or something along those lines, your culture would change to polar bears?Yeah. There also is a console command in EU4 that causes Jan Mayen to spawn with about 50,000 units.
Post by: gimli on February 10, 2016, 10:29:12 am
Old borders:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The reason for the change: "We had some problems with borders you see in the early screen shot. Eventually it got to a point where fixing all the issues would take longer than redoing the system, so we did." ::)
Post by: Descan on February 10, 2016, 10:57:31 am
Post by: inteuniso on February 10, 2016, 11:04:43 am
Post by: gimli on February 10, 2016, 11:09:21 am
I like the texture of the old borders but the non-overlapping nature of the new ones. Wonder what the problem was, if it was the texture (seems odd that it would be, looks like it's just an overlay)
The gap looks really odd. It looks like a demilitarized zone between the empires, the borders should touch/meet.[...unless there's an actual gap between 2 systems] Also yeah, they even removed the textures, the new look is simplistic and "soulless". I hope that they will work on it.
Graphics are usually changed up pretty quick by the community. Rarely, if at all, one of my gripes with anything.
Well yeah, but some parts of it might be hard-coded. [Ex.: gaps between the borders of the empires]
Post by: Retropunch on February 11, 2016, 03:07:01 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on February 11, 2016, 04:49:48 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 11, 2016, 05:25:07 am
Post by: Jopax on February 11, 2016, 06:16:17 am
Probably asking too much, but eh, a girl can dream can't she.
Post by: Majestic7 on February 11, 2016, 06:32:05 am
However, espionage and covert stuff is something that is not included in the game at launch, according to some DD or its comments on Paradox forums. (Other than manipulating undeveloped species.)
Post by: redwallzyl on February 11, 2016, 07:25:30 am
Quote
It's not just the zoom levels. We had some problems with borders you see in the early screen shot. Eventually it got to a point where fixing all the issues would take longer than redoing the system, so we did.
Post by: jocan2003 on February 11, 2016, 08:06:15 am
If they have pictures for space bears, I hope to god that they put them in feudalistic European dress. Poofy shirts, crowns, the works. Crusader Bears 2 WhenSomebody would love stardrive series?
Post by: sambojin on February 11, 2016, 09:59:32 am
I still think that it wouldn't have actually been that hard to fix either.
Now never ever mention it again, lest you curse Stellaris to the same fate
Post by: gimli on February 15, 2016, 09:31:34 am
Next monday: "Next week, I plan to talk about Alliances and Federations!"
*edit*
Haha, Doomdark is talking about expansions already... :D -> "While Sectors and Sector Governors cannot demand more autonomy, or directly rise up in revolt (things Id love to explore in an expansion)"
Well yeah, that is "excellent expansion material", that is for sure.
*edit #2.*
See Stellaris near-complete at the PC Gamer Weekender (http://www.pcgamer.com/see-stellaris-near-complete-at-the-pc-gamer-weekender)
"I've been going on about the Paradox team's appearance at the PC Gamer Weekender for a while. PC is the natural home of grand strategy, after all; it would be weird without them. But now I get to revealin an excited and child-like waythat they'll be bringing a near-complete build of Stellaris with them to show off on March 5-6 at London's Old Truman Brewery.
Game director Henrik Fåhraeus will appear in-person to talk through his vision and the mechanics of an unknowable galaxy generated fresh each time you start a game, assisted by Paradox Development Studio producer Anna Norrevik. They'll be demonstrating deep-space exploration, zoning in on how the early stages of a 4X transition to the events, anomalies and diplomacy of grand strategy.
Stellaris footage is thin on the ground, so the Weekender is the best opportunity to see how far it's come since we checked in on it five months ago."
Post by: Teneb on February 15, 2016, 12:03:22 pm
Post by: Cruxador on February 15, 2016, 09:01:45 pm
Haha, Doomdark is talking about expansions already...It's not the first time.
Post by: Knave on February 15, 2016, 09:18:59 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on February 16, 2016, 01:49:38 am
Post by: Cruxador on February 16, 2016, 02:25:15 am
Hmh, I hope it is not completed too soon, since that points towards it being rather simple, yes?It was in development for a long time before it was announced and likely will be for a long time after release.
Quote
Although many aspects of the game seem great, I still have this nagging feeling it will be a proof-of-concept test like Sengoku. Then there will be the real Galaxy Universalis later.I'd consider that very unlikely. They've been talking already about potential for expansion, and it's too hype of a concept to do something like that with. Sengoku and March of Eagles were both fairly niche in historical target area, and this is very much not. If they were going to release a prototype, it probably would have been a colonial/age of sale game using islands and the sea instead of planets and space.
Post by: Majestic7 on February 16, 2016, 07:41:09 am
Post by: gimli on February 16, 2016, 10:00:27 am
Looks like we can perhaps expect a release around the middle of this year. This is all speculation from my part, of course, but that statement and the removal of the ALPHA tag from the various images in the latest dev diaries seem to point that way.
I quote myself.
If I would have to guess about the release date...10% chance for a Q1 release [march] ; 70% for Q2 and 20% for Q3. IMO.
So yeah..in fact, now it's more like 80% for Q2*. [*PCG "article".]
Hmh, I hope it is not completed too soon, since that points towards it being rather simple, yes?It was in development for a long time before it was announced and likely will be for a long time after release.QuoteAlthough many aspects of the game seem great, I still have this nagging feeling it will be a proof-of-concept test like Sengoku. Then there will be the real Galaxy Universalis later.I'd consider that very unlikely. They've been talking already about potential for expansion, and it's too hype of a concept to do something like that with. Sengoku and March of Eagles were both fairly niche in historical target area, and this is very much not. If they were going to release a prototype, it probably would have been a colonial/age of sale game using islands and the sea instead of planets and space.
Heh, don't worry, this game will be supported by PD for a long time, just like CK2 or EU4. It's a "main title", and also, don't forget about the fact that 4x space strategies are still very popular...not to mention, that this game "begs for expansions" anyway, and _that_ is the most important thing to the devs. :D
Post by: umiman on February 16, 2016, 01:22:00 pm
If the game is released soon, I hope they make a proper marketing blitz in the same way as the videos for CKII. I think the gaming world has been itching for a proper 4X for a long while, this would be a chance for Paradox to gain new fans.Those... golden.... videos.
We need more. So much more.
That piracy video was the only reason why I actually bought CK2.
Post by: Teneb on February 16, 2016, 01:58:04 pm
Post by: Lossmar on February 16, 2016, 02:19:32 pm
I imagine the more recent Paradox games might be a pain to pirate, though, with all the DLC, cosmetic or not, and updates.
Why is that ? Its not like there are no pirate versions of CK2 with all DLC and newest patches ...
Post by: Cruxador on February 16, 2016, 08:34:29 pm
I imagine the more recent Paradox games might be a pain to pirate, though, with all the DLC, cosmetic or not, and updates.If the game has an active playerbase, you get updated torrents. And there exist for CK2 regularly updated stores of DLC for people who have the steam version but don't want to drop a couple hundred dollars to play the full game.
Post by: gimli on February 22, 2016, 09:50:47 am
Next weeks topic is Multiplayer!
Post by: Drakale on February 22, 2016, 12:14:05 pm
The unified ship design for the federations is interesting also, I guess only the federation 'leader' get to edit those?
Post by: gimli on February 22, 2016, 12:39:11 pm
I guess only the federation 'leader' get to edit those?
Yep. -> "The Federation president gets to design these ship templates using all the best technologies of all the member empires."
Btw, this federation system will spice up the mid/late game for sure.
Post by: Drakale on February 22, 2016, 01:39:15 pm
Not sure how I missed that heh.I guess only the federation 'leader' get to edit those?
Yep. -> "The Federation president gets to design these ship templates using all the best technologies of all the member empires."
Btw, this federation system will spice up the mid/late game for sure.
I guess it's going to work like the HRE where the federation get all the control externally and there is some tensions inside kind of deal. Breaking off a federation would definitely get interesting.
Post by: gimli on February 23, 2016, 09:37:33 am
Note: I don't really like the idea that the (federation) presidency rotates. I'm like 101% certain, that a diplomacy (federations & alliances) centred expansion will be amongst the first 3 expansions and it will vastly enhance the system [elected executives, federation parliaments etc.]
Post by: Cruxador on February 23, 2016, 03:30:25 pm
I'm like 101% certain, that a diplomacy (federations & alliances) centred expansion will be amongst the first 3 expansionsI'm not. Look at the DLC that was released in 2013 for EU4. I don't imagine we'll be getting any pervasive gameplay changes for a good while after launch.
Post by: Retropunch on February 23, 2016, 05:02:51 pm
More than that, I can't imagine how badly alliances will play with the AI. It'll be endless messing around with war goals (they've even stated that!) to satisfy the AI. That'll probably mean just swapping stuff until you eventually get a configuration that they all agree to.
I'm getting less and less enthusiastic with this, as after pretty much every dev diary it gets a little bit less exciting. I'm sure if they give it time and proper expansions, it'll eventually become awesome, but so far it's looking a bit barebones.
Post by: JumpingJack on February 23, 2016, 07:29:24 pm
I had expected it to be a lot LOT deeper than that. I was pretty much convinced that Alliances/Federations and all that were going to be a huge cornerstone of the gameplay instead of just two choices.I've actually liked several of the diaries, but I agree; quite bare-boned. Though, given that this is Paradox, I wasn't expecting much to start off with.
...
I'm getting less and less enthusiastic with this, as after pretty much every dev diary it gets a little bit less exciting. I'm sure if they give it time and proper expansions, it'll eventually become awesome, but so far it's looking a bit barebones.
More than that, I can't imagine how badly alliances will play with the AI. It'll be endless messing around with war goals (they've even stated that!) to satisfy the AI. That'll probably mean just swapping stuff until you eventually get a configuration that they all agree to.To be fair, sometimes that's all actual diplomacy amounts to. :P
Post by: Wysthric on February 23, 2016, 07:43:49 pm
Post by: Cruxador on February 23, 2016, 11:00:06 pm
I do like Paradox but it does seem like you can get IDK a Sid - Meier game of an AoE line game or something for like £30 in one go and with Paradox you need to spend like £80 to get a great game.CK2 with all expansions is several times that.
Post by: Retropunch on February 24, 2016, 03:16:14 am
I do like Paradox but it does seem like you can get IDK a Sid - Meier game of an AoE line game or something for like £30 in one go and with Paradox you need to spend like £80 to get a great game.CK2 with all expansions is several times that.
Completely agree. Unfortunately this seems even more bare bones than usual though - I think it's probably because there's no historical element that they need to fulfill so they don't need to reach a sort of minimum to allow for those events to play out.
My main concern is that they've stripped it down too much for it to be a good game in it's own right. Most 4x games have a 'thing' that puts them above the rest of the 4x swamp, but I can't really see this in Stellaris yet. I thought it'd be characters - but then they were dumbed down to nothing, then I thought it MUST be the alliances - but then they seemed no more complex than GalCiv2s.
Still holding out hope though...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on February 24, 2016, 03:28:36 am
I'm cautiously hopeful for Stellaris. The amount of content seen so far still looks like a decent amount for any regular game.
Post by: Majestic7 on February 24, 2016, 03:31:24 am
Edit: Paradox had Reddit AMA yesterday. They were asked about release dates for HOI4 and Stellaris; they named no dates but said Stellaris reached beta before HOI4. Valar Hypetis!
Post by: gimli on February 24, 2016, 08:17:37 am
I had expected it to be a lot LOT deeper than that. I was pretty much convinced that Alliances/Federations and all that were going to be a huge cornerstone of the gameplay instead of just two choices.
I've actually liked several of the diaries, but I agree; quite bare-boned. Though, given that this is Paradox, I wasn't expecting much to start off with.
It's ok for the v1.0 release, it's a PD game afterall. [Compare vanilla CK2 or EU4 to the latest versions.] They release all of their games with the DLC/expansion model in mind. [..and I say it again...mark my words, the diplo centered expansion will be amongst the first 3.]
Unfortunately this seems even more bare bones than usual though - I think it's probably because there's no historical element that they need to fulfill so they don't need to reach a sort of minimum to allow for those events to play out.
My main concern is that they've stripped it down too much for it to be a good game in it's own right. Most 4x games have a 'thing' that puts them above the rest of the 4x swamp, but I can't really see this in Stellaris yet.
I don't agree, it will be a good 4x space strategy for the 1.0 release, but again:
I do like Paradox but it does seem like you can get IDK a Sid - Meier game of an AoE line game or something for like £30 in one go and with Paradox you need to spend like £80 to get a great game.CK2 with all expansions is several times that.
Yep, but that is true about all of the PD games IMO. So yeah, it will be good @ release, and it will be one of the best 4x strategies after like 4 expanions.
PS. Other than Galciv 2. & DW:U, I can't name a 4x space strategy which I really enjoyed. [I don't have Galciv 3. btw]
-
Lol @ this screenshot. Cow-class Leviathan. :D
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Cruxador on February 24, 2016, 01:02:12 pm
..and I say it again...mark my words, the diplo centered expansion will be amongst the first 3.If you say something a first time, saying it a second without some modification is meaningless. If you do so after people have commented on the initial iteration of the statement without acknowledging that in some way, it's inane.
Post by: gimli on February 24, 2016, 02:19:51 pm
I'm like 101% certain, that a diplomacy (federations & alliances) centred expansion will be amongst the first 3 expansionsI'm not. Look at the DLC that was released in 2013 for EU4. I don't imagine we'll be getting any pervasive gameplay changes for a good while after launch.
Define "for a good while".
CoP, WoN, RP & AoW was released for EU4 within ~1 year after 1.1
SoI, LoR, TR, ToG, was released for CK2 within ~1 year after 1.02b
It's clear that the rotating presidency is just a placeholder. It begs for improvements [btw take a look at the comments on the PD forum, most of the forumers are demanding something better already - yep, totally unexpected reactions..heh], just like the federation/alliance systems themselves. Expanding & enhancing the various diplo related compoments of the game will make the PD fanbase extremely happy & they will spend their money on an expansion like that [focusing on diplomacy] for sure.
Post by: Cruxador on February 24, 2016, 03:25:02 pm
Sword of Islam simply fleshed out an unintended feature that people liked, and charged for it. Legacy of Rome added flavor events and one feature which, while novel, wasn't actually huge in terms of code complexity. What's more, there's been an official statement specifically citing that as something they don't want to do again. The Republic was, and remains, a buggy mess that's more of an argument against major features in the early stage than for it. The Old Gods was a great expansion, but comes after your four expansion cutoff, and is of anomalously high quality for a CK2 expansion and for Paradox expansions in general; it is reasonable to suppose that they won't capture lightning in a bottle like that again.
Post by: Descan on February 24, 2016, 03:31:56 pm
Which either means they'd not put in a system like that again, or in the future a system that intrinsic would be part of the free patch and not DLC-locked content. Either way, that doesn't have anything to do with them releasing DLC within a year of Stellaris.
Post by: redwallzyl on February 24, 2016, 04:51:13 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cb_B3UlUkAEDuo3.png)
also
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Retropunch on February 24, 2016, 04:57:37 pm
...
Which either means they'd not put in a system like that again, or in the future a system that intrinsic would be part of the free patch and not DLC-locked content. Either way, that doesn't have anything to do with them releasing DLC within a year of Stellaris.
That seems highly unlikely. For historical games you can add more history/map areas in DLC, but the only thing they can really improve in a 4x is the mechanics themselves. Whilst I realise there are costs to balance so they can't be too ambitious, I do feel that they're basically setting the game up for DLC which is a business model I really dislike.
Post by: Cruxador on February 24, 2016, 06:39:58 pm
alsoI don't know what the fuck that is, but I want to play as it.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Not a fan of the color choices on the fasces though.
That seems highly unlikely. For historical games you can add more history/map areas in DLC, but the only thing they can really improve in a 4x is the mechanics themselves. Whilst I realise there are costs to balance so they can't be too ambitious, I do feel that they're basically setting the game up for DLC which is a business model I really dislike.There will definitely be major mechanics that end up being DLC, but they can add the equivalent of history to the game no problem. Look at the kinds of small things that they added to CK2 and EU4. CK2 got new playable religions and government types. Stellaris doesn't have religions, but it conveniently does have government types, and I'd be willing to bet that civilization types (ie synthetic and hive mind) stuff will get involved in expansions as well. Now consider what EU4 has gotten. Yes, its expansions tend to be lackluster aside from the mechanical aspect, but most of them deal with a specific aspect of life, or a region, or a cultural/religious group. There's no reason they can't do any of that for Stellaris, just swapping out "region" with general cultural blocs and types of empire as needed. Also consider that the game is randomly mapped, and look at what Stardock has done with their fantasy games. It's relatively easy for Paradox to make DLC which incorporates new elements for the map to draw from, as well as things like event packs.
Post by: Teneb on February 24, 2016, 06:45:51 pm
oh paradox you trollRemove space kebab.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cb_B3UlUkAEDuo3.png)
Post by: gimli on February 25, 2016, 09:58:55 am
oh paradox you troll
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cb_B3UlUkAEDuo3.png)
alsoSpoiler (click to show/hide)
Wiz... :D
Post by: gimli on February 29, 2016, 10:13:11 am
"...One of our longstanding issues with multiplayer is that clients desynchronize, which is usually solved by having the host rehost the game, but this can be quite a menace when playing multiplayer with 20+ people, so weve decided that this is an issue we should prioritize higher in Stellaris. Thanks to persistent testing and fixing of out-of-syncs as soon as they happen, weve managed to make Stellaris our most stable multiplayer experience yet..."
Next week is all about the AI.
Post by: Drakale on February 29, 2016, 10:29:57 am
Post by: Cicero on February 29, 2016, 11:32:47 am
I think I'm going to need hard evidence before believing paradox can into stable multiplayer.
Ditto. Didn't they promise exactly this for EUIV? While it was definitely a bit better than CK II and EUIII they are still at least 10 years behind everyone else with multiplayer.
Post by: Cruxador on February 29, 2016, 03:28:37 pm
Post by: Wysthric on February 29, 2016, 03:32:47 pm
People care about multiplayer for Paradox games?
The singleplayer is really fun but there's nothing quite like murdering your friend and leaving him with a 2 - year old ruler all the nobles hate.
Post by: Zangi on February 29, 2016, 03:55:24 pm
Post by: Drakale on February 29, 2016, 04:02:58 pm
People care about multiplayer for Paradox games?
Well they would care more if it didn't desync all the time. CK 2 multiplayer is fun as hell, as long as you can excuse yourself from real life for like 10 hours.
Post by: Mini on February 29, 2016, 05:07:55 pm
With the fact that the AI can control player empires in multiplayer(when players drop out and others continue to play, plus in-session joining)... I wonder if it has optional automation options like how Distant Worlds does it. That would be awesome.Doubt it, the AI can take over player nations in the current games, you just have to rehost, and there are (with exception of HoI) no automation options.
Post by: Orange Wizard on February 29, 2016, 05:17:06 pm
I think I'm going to need hard evidence before believing paradox can into stable multiplayer."Most stable yet" doesn't necessarily mean stable. Might just mean "it breaks slightly less often than our other games".
Post by: umiman on February 29, 2016, 06:58:01 pm
People care about multiplayer for Paradox games?Yes. It's awesome.
There's two kinds of CK2 players.
There's the guy who plays it like it's Simcity. Slowly building, ein zwei ein zwei one two one two yes I have finished my building time to slowly build some more.
Then there's the guy who plays it like it's Simcity. As the giant robot that destroys everything.
Post by: Majestic7 on March 01, 2016, 01:10:03 am
Post by: Wysthric on March 01, 2016, 02:52:03 am
People care about multiplayer for Paradox games?Yes. It's awesome.
There's two kinds of CK2 players.
There's the guy who plays it like it's Simcity. Slowly building, ein zwei ein zwei one two one two yes I have finished my building time to slowly build some more.
Then there's the guy who plays it like it's Simcity. As the giant robot that destroys everything.
Surely the first type of guy is going to throw his toys out of the pram when he dies and gets a regency for ihs 0 year old daughter?
Post by: umiman on March 01, 2016, 03:13:38 am
Yup. Then they'll go online and complain.People care about multiplayer for Paradox games?Yes. It's awesome.
There's two kinds of CK2 players.
There's the guy who plays it like it's Simcity. Slowly building, ein zwei ein zwei one two one two yes I have finished my building time to slowly build some more.
Then there's the guy who plays it like it's Simcity. As the giant robot that destroys everything.
Surely the first type of guy is going to throw his toys out of the pram when he dies and gets a regency for ihs 0 year old daughter?
Post by: Catastrophic lolcats on March 01, 2016, 03:50:09 am
Indeed. Those that desync and those that desync slightly later.People care about multiplayer for Paradox games?Yes. It's awesome.
There's two kinds of CK2 players.
Post by: gimli on March 01, 2016, 08:14:36 am
People care about multiplayer for Paradox games?
Are you kidding? I only play CK2 and EU4 in multi [2-6 players] in the last 2 years. Roflstomping the AI isn't fun. MP is where the real fun [& challenge] is.
I think I'm going to need hard evidence before believing paradox can into stable multiplayer."Most stable yet" doesn't necessarily mean stable. Might just mean "it breaks slightly less often than our other games".
Heh, well yeah, let's wait and see, but they are trying (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-23-multiplayer.911175/page-2#post-20735411) at least.
Post by: Kot on March 01, 2016, 08:46:36 am
Post by: Majestic7 on March 01, 2016, 08:55:46 am
Personaly, I think playing stuff like CK2 in multiplayer just takes too much commitment. If I want to play multiplayer I play shooters or in the other extreme, something like Dom4 which can be played as PBEM.
Post by: BFEL on March 01, 2016, 09:12:37 am
Personaly, I think playing stuff like CK2 in multiplayer just takes too much commitment. If I want to play multiplayer I play shooters or in the other extreme, something like Dom4 which can be played as PBEM.You think that takes too much commitment but play PBEM with zero problems? A multiplayer game like this takes a few hours of commitment, Dominions takes MONTHS of it.
Post by: Majestic7 on March 01, 2016, 10:15:38 am
Post by: gimli on March 01, 2016, 11:37:32 am
Post by: Cruxador on March 01, 2016, 03:48:36 pm
I agree, actually. Something like CK2 takes your full attention for several consecutive hours.Personaly, I think playing stuff like CK2 in multiplayer just takes too much commitment. If I want to play multiplayer I play shooters or in the other extreme, something like Dom4 which can be played as PBEM.You think that takes too much commitment but play PBEM with zero problems? A multiplayer game like this takes a few hours of commitment, Dominions takes MONTHS of it.
^ Not really, if you play with your friends or active CK2 or EU4 MPers at least. We simply save the game if someone has to go, and continue on when everyone is available again. It works like a charm.Well in practice, unless everyone involved devotes a huge portion of their life to idleness, that means you need to either coordinate a time or it's very unlikely that you'll get more than a session or two in the same game. So while a game session may not need the entire weekend, it'll need a pretty decent amount of time if anything is going to happen.
While the latter might take more time in total,I wouldn't consider that necessarily true either, if you play both to completion. Dominions is like an hour a turn at most, if you don't do frivolous stuff like blogging about it, and it's not that common to get to even 100 turns. Playing from start date to end date in CK2 can easily exceed 100 hours, especially if you have a bunch of people slowing things down whenever there's a war.
Post by: Wysthric on March 01, 2016, 07:14:11 pm
Yup. Then they'll go online and complain.People care about multiplayer for Paradox games?Yes. It's awesome.
There's two kinds of CK2 players.
There's the guy who plays it like it's Simcity. Slowly building, ein zwei ein zwei one two one two yes I have finished my building time to slowly build some more.
Then there's the guy who plays it like it's Simcity. As the giant robot that destroys everything.
Surely the first type of guy is going to throw his toys out of the pram when he dies and gets a regency for ihs 0 year old daughter?
*looks around suspiciously* my friend is a bit like this. I'm actually playing two games - trying to grow and trying to also protect my friend regardless of alliance status because if he gets a dose of (very) bad luck, he'll just refuse to play the game.
Post by: Persus13 on March 01, 2016, 07:36:58 pm
You need at least two or three hours, and in the early game you can read a book or alt-tab if nothing big is happening. usually people are free at night or on weekends, so time isn't as big a deal for my friends playing EUIV.^ Not really, if you play with your friends or active CK2 or EU4 MPers at least. We simply save the game if someone has to go, and continue on when everyone is available again. It works like a charm.Well in practice, unless everyone involved devotes a huge portion of their life to idleness, that means you need to either coordinate a time or it's very unlikely that you'll get more than a session or two in the same game. So while a game session may not need the entire weekend, it'll need a pretty decent amount of time if anything is going to happen.
How many games have you played from 769 to the 1400s in singleplayer CKII?While the latter might take more time in total,I wouldn't consider that necessarily true either, if you play both to completion. Dominions is like an hour a turn at most, if you don't do frivolous stuff like blogging about it, and it's not that common to get to even 100 turns. Playing from start date to end date in CK2 can easily exceed 100 hours, especially if you have a bunch of people slowing things down whenever there's a war.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on March 01, 2016, 08:02:59 pm
Post by: BFEL on March 01, 2016, 08:39:03 pm
I used to play with someone who would rage quit if they were losing a war or died prematurely in EUIV or CKII.
I'm this guy in SINGLE PLAYER. It's awful from my end too. Its like "oh remember those 40 hours you spent building this thing? GONE"
But yeah, if I were to play MP I wouldn't rage quit on you even if that happened. Once other people are involved its your responsibility to not flip out.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on March 01, 2016, 08:41:36 pm
*looks around suspiciously* my friend is a bit like this. I'm actually playing two games - trying to grow and trying to also protect my friend regardless of alliance status because if he gets a dose of (very) bad luck, he'll just refuse to play the game.I hate doing this so much. I have a couple of friends (and a sister) like this. Where I really want to play with them, but sometimes it's something where I'm just straight out better and have to coddle them so they won't ragequit.
Post by: Wysthric on March 01, 2016, 09:22:13 pm
*looks around suspiciously* my friend is a bit like this. I'm actually playing two games - trying to grow and trying to also protect my friend regardless of alliance status because if he gets a dose of (very) bad luck, he'll just refuse to play the game.I hate doing this so much. I have a couple of friends (and a sister) like this. Where I really want to play with them, but sometimes it's something where I'm just straight out better and have to coddle them so they won't ragequit.
I suppose from their end it's not fun to lose time and time again. To which I say, nay! (I think I've played about 100 matches of SFIII, all against my friend when I'm over his house [he owns the game and I don't.] I think I've won like 5, seriously.)
I always try and choose one of the shittiest countries to start as (i.e. a one - province count) and my mate picks a Duchy and when there's vassal trouble or such and he finds difficulty he calls the game bullshit.
Post by: Majestic7 on March 02, 2016, 01:41:51 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on March 02, 2016, 01:56:32 am
Post by: boyoentukboyo on March 02, 2016, 06:31:36 am
EUIV has the lucky nations bullshit which CKII lacks, to my knowledge. Of course you can turn off the lucky nations, but people often forget to do so.
I always play with lucky nations off, it makes for interesting alternate history in which the blue blob of doom usually cannot survive for more than a decade :P
Post by: gimli on March 02, 2016, 07:47:26 am
^ Not really, if you play with your friends or active CK2 or EU4 MPers at least. We simply save the game if someone has to go, and continue on when everyone is available again. It works like a charm.Well in practice, unless everyone involved devotes a huge portion of their life to idleness, that means you need to either coordinate a time or it's very unlikely that you'll get more than a session or two in the same game.
Yep, we do that, and it's quite easy to "manage", but again, I only play with experienced & devoted players.
Post by: gimli on March 02, 2016, 07:52:56 am
I used to play with someone who would rage quit if they were losing a war or died prematurely in EUIV or CKII.
Lmao, now that behaviour is quite common amongst low/mid elo LoL players for example. Ragequit after 0-6-0 KDA on mid/top...on high elo: ragequitter mode: off ; troll mode: on. :D
*edit*
Oops, sorry for the double post. :o
Post by: Cruxador on March 02, 2016, 01:03:19 pm
How many games have you played from 769 to the 1400s in singleplayer CKII?The fact that nobody does it in singleplayer because it takes too long is not a counterargument to the fact that nobody does it in multiplayer because it takes too long.
Post by: gimli on March 03, 2016, 10:15:17 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: JumpingJack on March 04, 2016, 08:15:55 am
"Having the right law lets aliens and potentially even robots be leaders. (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/multi-species-factions.911722/#post-20750975)"Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Covenant and Enclave confirmed.
Post by: gimli on March 07, 2016, 08:37:08 am
"Next week we'll be talking about debris and the fine art of reverse engineering."
PS. Johan's reply with regard to gameplay videos: "We will not show any footage of the game before gdc." (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/is-there-going-to-be-a-stream-for-pc-gamer-weekender.911861/page-3#post-20765697)
Post by: Drakale on March 07, 2016, 11:55:32 am
The AI approach sound good, hope they can deliver.
Post by: gimli on March 07, 2016, 12:02:01 pm
GDC is next week isn't it?
Yep.
Post by: redwallzyl on March 07, 2016, 12:30:27 pm
Spoiler: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Descan on March 07, 2016, 06:12:53 pm
Post by: umiman on March 07, 2016, 10:14:45 pm
Post by: Besserwisser on March 07, 2016, 10:23:49 pm
You fucking racist :VYou mean specist.
Post by: JumpingJack on March 07, 2016, 11:48:16 pm
Spoiler: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Beautiful island world with horrifically unattractive pacifist denizens. Lovely.
Edit: Nope, mollusks. ???
Post by: Culise on March 07, 2016, 11:51:57 pm
Yeah, I've been to Larongo and they were the nicest people!Indeed, and they had the cutest pets as well.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolan7 on March 08, 2016, 12:15:53 am
Post by: Majestic7 on March 08, 2016, 12:16:59 am
Post by: Cruxador on March 08, 2016, 12:29:59 am
Why, to better lick its owners face, of course.Wait, you're supposed to use a penis for licking? I've been eating ice cream all wrong!
Post by: BFEL on March 08, 2016, 12:58:12 am
"A man was arrested today for violating an ice cream cone. He was also reportedly encouraging nearby children to do the same."Why, to better lick its owners face, of course.Wait, you're supposed to use a penis for licking? I've been eating ice cream all wrong!
Post by: Majestic7 on March 08, 2016, 01:39:47 am
Post by: tnc on March 08, 2016, 04:28:47 am
Post by: Cicero on March 11, 2016, 11:39:17 am
Case in point: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?attachments/stellarismeme2-jpg.162976/ (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?attachments/stellarismeme2-jpg.162976/)
Not to mention: http://i.imgur.com/0fSu90D.png (http://i.imgur.com/0fSu90D.png)
Not only that but Paradox staff have commented on the thread.
Post by: Teneb on March 11, 2016, 12:08:34 pm
Post by: gimli on March 11, 2016, 12:16:16 pm
Not to mention: http://i.imgur.com/0fSu90D.png (http://i.imgur.com/0fSu90D.png)
Lmao! :D :D
PS.
Paradox Has A Grand Strategy for GDC (http://imgmr.com/pc-news/paradox-has-a-grand-strategy-for-gdc).
"Finally, Paradox will have demo sessions of a wide variety of their titles in development, such as Hearts of Iron IV, Stellaris, and another title that has yet to be revealed."
Post by: scriver on March 11, 2016, 01:17:47 pm
Post by: gimli on March 11, 2016, 01:45:06 pm
Post by: Descan on March 11, 2016, 03:14:40 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 11, 2016, 03:16:35 pm
They've already talked about the next CK2 expansion, which hasn't been revealed yet. It's probably that.Could be Mare Nostrum (for EU4), too.
Post by: Cruxador on March 11, 2016, 03:18:44 pm
Post by: Drakale on March 11, 2016, 03:35:39 pm
Post by: gimli on March 12, 2016, 09:17:01 am
It could also be that it's something they're publishing but not developing.
Yeah, but we shall see. Anyway, am I the only one who is waiting for a 4x fantasy strategy developed by PD [& using the Clausewitz engine ofc]? It might happen one day. 8)
Post by: Tilla on March 12, 2016, 03:16:00 pm
something something White Wolf
this, its been a few months since they bought white wolf, and they've noted they've got huge game plans
edit: Whatever it is it appears to be by Obsidian: http://humanresources.paradoxplaza.com/ this quiz has their logo at the end.
Post by: Persus13 on March 12, 2016, 06:13:08 pm
Post by: Tilla on March 12, 2016, 06:21:57 pm
Isn't Pillars of Eternity by Obsidian too?Yup
Post by: Cruxador on March 12, 2016, 07:51:55 pm
Oh, it's something evil-themed, with that campy brand of evil that is utterly pointless and inefficient. I guess whatever it is, it won't be great.something something White Wolf
this, its been a few months since they bought white wolf, and they've noted they've got huge game plans
edit: Whatever it is it appears to be by Obsidian: http://humanresources.paradoxplaza.com/ this quiz has their logo at the end.
Post by: Culise on March 12, 2016, 11:37:37 pm
I wonder. If they go down the road of making a satire or parody akin to the Overlord series' treatment of the...well, the eponymous concept of the evil overlord, it might work. Admittedly, I never played those games, but they seemed to be rather popular.Oh, it's something evil-themed, with that campy brand of evil that is utterly pointless and inefficient. I guess whatever it is, it won't be great.something something White Wolf
this, its been a few months since they bought white wolf, and they've noted they've got huge game plans
edit: Whatever it is it appears to be by Obsidian: http://humanresources.paradoxplaza.com/ this quiz has their logo at the end.
Post by: Cruxador on March 13, 2016, 12:05:49 am
Post by: Rolan7 on March 13, 2016, 12:16:45 am
Post by: Majestic7 on March 13, 2016, 07:09:45 am
Post by: gimli on March 13, 2016, 07:36:41 am
Bullfrog
They developed a couple of legendary games.. Populous, Powermonger, Syndicate, DK. (PS. One Explanation Behind EA 'Destroying' Bullfrog (http://kotaku.com/one-explanation-behind-ea-destroying-bullfrog-1548092283)).
Anyway, back to the topic..Stellaris PL: "I think this has the potential to be our most successful game ever. (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-hyped-are-you.913259/#post-20793862)"
Post by: Glloyd on March 13, 2016, 02:44:50 pm
Anyway, back to the topic..Stellaris PL: "I think this has the potential to be our most successful game ever. (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-hyped-are-you.913259/#post-20793862)"
In Paradox speak that means they foresee Stellaris being a vehicle for DLC until the heat death of the universe.
Post by: Teneb on March 13, 2016, 02:47:50 pm
If these dlcs are about as decent as the ones for CK2, I really don't see a problem.Anyway, back to the topic..Stellaris PL: "I think this has the potential to be our most successful game ever. (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-hyped-are-you.913259/#post-20793862)"
In Paradox speak that means they foresee Stellaris being a vehicle for DLC until the heat death of the universe.
Post by: Retropunch on March 13, 2016, 03:26:02 pm
I have to concur completely. I played War for the Overworld a bit and that was only about 10% more campy evil, but it already felt like far too much. It's only good as a character (cue Murray from Monkey Island) or in a self-referential, novelty way like DK. However, I could definitely be convinced that a Paradox game with Obsidian writing might turn out pretty fun.
Re: Endless expansions.
As long as they're all sizable then that's ok, although I do feel the first 2-3 will probably be stuff that kinda shoulda been put in the base game (espionage for instance).
Post by: gimli on March 14, 2016, 09:33:29 am
"Next week Doomdark will return and tell you about Migration, Slavery and Purging!"
Post by: Cruxador on March 14, 2016, 02:50:29 pm
Stellaris Dev Diary #25 - Reverse Engineering and Unique Technologies (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-25-reverse-engineering-and-unique-technologies.913539)Well, it's a fairly minor feature to fill a whole dev diary, but still a cool one.
Quote
"Next week Doomdark will return and tell you about Migration, Slavery and Purging!"Now that'll be a fun one.
Post by: Zangi on March 14, 2016, 03:05:37 pm
Post by: redwallzyl on March 14, 2016, 03:58:40 pm
nice galaxy map
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
of course they did it:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
gif of combat
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
survey
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
zoomed galaxy
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
new alien picture
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
selection of aliens
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
space platypus
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
and just because
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Wiles on March 14, 2016, 05:47:03 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 14, 2016, 06:14:02 pm
Post by: Culise on March 14, 2016, 06:35:18 pm
Quote
These wormholes can only be generated by a Wormhole Station, a type of space station that can only be constructed on the outer edge of a system. Any fleet wanting to travel will have to use the Wormhole Station as a connecting point, passing through it whenever they leave the system. The station may only generate a single wormhole at a time, forcing all ships and fleets to wait while one is being prepared. The larger the fleet, the longer it takes for the Wormhole Station to be ready.
...
Constructing and maintaining an efficient network of Wormhole Stations is vital to any species using wormholes, as it will allow sending huge fleets from one part of the galaxy to another in very short time. It also allows striking deep inside enemy territory with little warning. This great strength can also be a great weakness, as fleets are left with no means of further offense or retreat should the network be disabled through covert attacks by enemy strike-fleets.
Post by: Majestic7 on March 15, 2016, 02:36:11 am
Post by: Drakale on March 15, 2016, 08:38:11 am
Post by: gimli on March 15, 2016, 12:09:44 pm
I found a link to a mirror of the video on reddit it still works at the time of this posting https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B09jVNCB7ZzOcDNEUXQ2V3NEV2M/view (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B09jVNCB7ZzOcDNEUXQ2V3NEV2M/view)
Nice, and btw they will stream Stellaris on thursday [@20.00 CET if true]. Here (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-stream-due-on-thurdsday.913758) is the PD forum topic about it.
PS.
GDC Press Conference - Starting 01:00 CET @ https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive
Post by: Teneb on March 15, 2016, 08:31:27 pm
Post by: JumpingJack on March 15, 2016, 09:39:52 pm
RELEASE DATE GET (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/release-date-9th-may-2016.913844/). 9th of May. Get hype.
So close, yet so far. I long to touch the stars and cast down the
Post by: Majestic7 on March 16, 2016, 01:43:07 am
Please hold me, I'm scared. Mainly scared that it will suck despite all the hype.
Post by: Orange Wizard on March 16, 2016, 03:31:45 am
Post by: Majestic7 on March 16, 2016, 04:44:33 am
Post by: gimli on March 16, 2016, 06:50:30 am
RELEASE DATE GET (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/release-date-9th-may-2016.913844/). 9th of May. Get hype.
The middle of Q2. Haha.
If I would have to guess about the release date...10% chance for a Q1 release [march] ; 70% for Q2 and 20% for Q3. IMO.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Majestic7 on March 16, 2016, 06:56:07 am
Post by: Aklyon on March 16, 2016, 09:30:10 am
You should now give us prediction on the quality of the game.Or how many bugs it will have in may.
Post by: Toaster on March 16, 2016, 09:32:38 am
You should now give us prediction on the quality of the game.Or how many bugs it will have in may.
Ever seen Starship Troopers?
Post by: Man of Paper on March 16, 2016, 09:52:12 am
You should now give us prediction on the quality of the game.Or how many bugs it will have in may.
Ever seen Starship Troopers?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: MrWiggles on March 16, 2016, 10:09:32 am
Post by: Man of Paper on March 16, 2016, 10:14:48 am
Post by: Cruxador on March 16, 2016, 12:22:17 pm
I don't personally mind paying for something that is great.Then wait a year or two to buy it.
Post by: gimli on March 16, 2016, 12:50:27 pm
You should now give us prediction on the quality of the game.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: umiman on March 16, 2016, 05:31:48 pm
As someone who actually watched all 40 minutes...Quill18 has 40 minuet video of Stellaris game play.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5rmqiyxxjY for the video.
Eh, don't bother. They barely do anything. They spent all 40 minutes bumbling about barely accomplishing anything (other than a pathetic attempt at roleplaying a cat empire). You won't see anything that hasn't already been seen before. In fact they actually end it when something interesting finally happens.
I also don't understand why they had to put a gigantic webcam to show their faces but take up the entire bottom right of the screen.
Post by: Teneb on March 16, 2016, 06:08:51 pm
That youtuber pretty much does that for everything. I think it's the reason I don't like him. Facecams should be small and discrete.As someone who actually watched all 40 minutes...Quill18 has 40 minuet video of Stellaris game play.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5rmqiyxxjY for the video.
Eh, don't bother. They barely do anything. They spent all 40 minutes bumbling about barely accomplishing anything (other than a pathetic attempt at roleplaying a cat empire). You won't see anything that hasn't already been seen before. In fact they actually end it when something interesting finally happens.
I also don't understand why they had to put a gigantic webcam to show their faces but take up the entire bottom right of the screen.
Post by: Descan on March 16, 2016, 06:09:14 pm
Post by: Aklyon on March 16, 2016, 06:11:50 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on March 16, 2016, 06:55:48 pm
Post by: Malus on March 16, 2016, 07:23:19 pm
Post by: sambojin on March 16, 2016, 07:48:07 pm
I'll probably youTube that Games Day vid later, for them's that don't just d/l it.
Post by: Shadowlord on March 16, 2016, 11:14:06 pm
Facecams should be small and discrete.
As opposed to continuous?
Post by: Cruxador on March 16, 2016, 11:26:22 pm
He means as opposed to obtrusive. Discrete is one of those words with more than one meaning, so if you used a translating software to try to find out the meaning in your first language, it will probably give you the wrong one.Facecams should be small and discrete.
As opposed to continuous?
Post by: Dansmithers on March 17, 2016, 01:10:08 am
Discrete is one of those words with more than one meaningNope (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/discrete?s=t), the word is actually discreet (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/discreet?s=t)
Post by: Culise on March 17, 2016, 09:10:06 am
Ah, butt it was plane watt was meant; no won is parfait, but inn my ayes, it seams the too words their are natural compliments.Discrete is one of those words with more than one meaningNope (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/discrete?s=t), the word is actually discreet (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/discreet?s=t)
((But in seriousness, the erroneous conflation of discrete and discreet is one of the things that actually bugs me a little. ^_^))
Post by: Rolan7 on March 17, 2016, 09:13:21 am
... Holy crap, I've always had it wrong :oDiscrete is one of those words with more than one meaningNope (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/discrete?s=t), the word is actually discreet (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/discreet?s=t)
Good thing I rarely wrote the word outside of math classes...
Post by: Xgamer4 on March 17, 2016, 09:16:27 am
... Holy crap, I've always had it wrong :oDiscrete is one of those words with more than one meaningNope (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/discrete?s=t), the word is actually discreet (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/discreet?s=t)
Good thing I rarely wrote the word outside of math classes...
Then nope, you had it right.
"Discrete" as opposed to "continuous" is the word you're gonna likely use in a math class.
"Discreet" as opposed to "obtrusive/obvious" is a word you'd use to describe a spy.
Post by: Teneb on March 17, 2016, 09:31:52 am
Post by: Cruxador on March 17, 2016, 01:52:22 pm
Well damn. That's the first time I've been wrong in years.Discrete is one of those words with more than one meaningNope (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/discrete?s=t), the word is actually discreet (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/discreet?s=t)
"Parfait" is totally pronounced differently from "perfect" and "what" is usually pronounced with the vowel substantially lower in the mouth, closer to the u in "butt" than the a in "taco"*. Aside from "won" and (in some dialects) "plane" the rest of those mistakes differ in tone, emphasis, or phoneme length. Close enough to be well within the bounds of what someone would understand, but not mistakes that a native speaker would make accidentally. Discreet and discrete are identical words in everything except how Webster and friends decided to standardize the spelling.Discrete is one of those words with more than one meaningAh, butt it was plane watt was meant; no won is parfait, but inn my ayes, it seams the too words their are natural compliments.
Post by: Culise on March 17, 2016, 02:40:51 pm
You're no fun. :P"Parfait" is totally pronounced differently from "perfect" and "what" is usually pronounced with the vowel substantially lower in the mouth, closer to the u in "butt" than the a in "taco"*. Aside from "won" and (in some dialects) "plane" the rest of those mistakes differ in tone, emphasis, or phoneme length. Close enough to be well within the bounds of what someone would understand, but not mistakes that a native speaker would make accidentally. Discreet and discrete are identical words in everything except how Webster and friends decided to standardize the spelling.Discrete is one of those words with more than one meaningAh, butt it was plane watt was meant; no won is parfait, but inn my ayes, it seams the too words their are natural compliments.
At any rate, if you're critiquing my joke in earnest, your choices of quibbles seem a bit odd to me. I'd consider "butt/but", "plane/plain", "won/one", "inn/in", "ayes/eyes", "seams/seems", "too/two", "their/there", and "compliments/complements" to all be phonetically identical to within a margin of error, and I'd consider "too", "their", and especially "compliments" to be very, very common mistakes made by native speakers. On the flip side, I wouldn't consider "won/one" to be a common mistake made by a native speaker at all. I also wouldn't consider "discreet" and "discrete" to be identical at all, especially if one considers "compliment" and "complement" to be highly distinct.
Post by: Majestic7 on March 17, 2016, 02:45:49 pm
Post by: sambojin on March 17, 2016, 05:06:44 pm
"No, it plainly says here that it shall be a temporary alliance of a given value to us, not a secretive one. We felt the mathematical term was most appropriate in interspecies dialogues."
Post by: Xgamer4 on March 17, 2016, 05:11:39 pm
Post by: sambojin on March 17, 2016, 05:14:25 pm
"I Am The LAW!"
Post by: redwallzyl on March 17, 2016, 09:02:11 pm
https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/v/54999695
(https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?attachments/facebook-jpg.164385/)
Post by: Aklyon on March 17, 2016, 09:10:47 pm
Post by: redwallzyl on March 17, 2016, 09:58:20 pm
Was it longer than quills 40min cat-pire?its an hour of hilarity and blorg.
Post by: JumpingJack on March 17, 2016, 10:39:10 pm
its an hour of hilarity and blorg.Affirmative. Resistance is futile.
Post by: Descan on March 17, 2016, 11:28:56 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on March 18, 2016, 12:06:31 am
Face-camLiterally unwatchable
Post by: Dansmithers on March 18, 2016, 12:23:22 am
(http://ci.memecdn.com/78/7197078.jpg)Face-camLiterally unwatchable
Post by: Cruxador on March 18, 2016, 02:04:53 am
[At any rate, if you're critiquing my joke in earnest, your choices of quibbles seem a bit odd to me. I'd consider "butt/but", "plane/plain", "won/one", "inn/in", "ayes/eyes", "seams/seems", "too/two", "their/there", and "compliments/complements" to all be phonetically identical to within a margin of error, and I'd consider "too", "their", and especially "compliments" to be very, very common mistakes made by native speakers. On the flip side, I wouldn't consider "won/one" to be a common mistake made by a native speaker at all. I also wouldn't consider "discreet" and "discrete" to be identical at all, especially if one considers "compliment" and "complement" to be highly distinct."Butt" and "ayes" have a longer vowels than "but" and "eyes", "inn" has a longer consonant than "in", and "their" is often so lengthened as to be arguably bisyllabic, though it does have overlap with "there". "plain" and "seems" and "ayes" are pronounced higher than "plane", "seams" and "eyes". They're all within margin of error for a non-native (but well-educated) speaker of English. They're still not mistakes that an English-speaker would normally make. "won"/"one" is a case that I called out as an exception because of pronunciation but the usage is very distinct and both words are common. "compliment" and "complement" are each pronounced with the same second syllable vowel as they're written as having, at least in every dialect of English I can recall hearing the words in (to be fair, they're not words I commonly use internationally) and not only are "discrete" and
"discreet" identical to me, but I can think of no reasonable pronunciation in which they're more different than any of the words you consider to be the same.
Post by: sambojin on March 18, 2016, 02:40:52 am
Including Scotland and Ireland. And yes, Wales as well.
You are incorrect.
Post by: sambojin on March 18, 2016, 03:02:54 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on March 18, 2016, 03:11:51 am
~~~Holy crap you're literally arguing over words.
Stuppit.
Post by: sambojin on March 18, 2016, 03:23:21 am
It's a sorry state to be in, I'll grant you that.
It's probably best to let the poor English language be used or misused, as the case may be. It's more-or-less a "use it as you know it" call, has been for hundreds of years. English Professors aside.
I doubt the Queen would mind :)
Post by: Orange Wizard on March 18, 2016, 03:25:04 am
Post by: sambojin on March 18, 2016, 03:29:15 am
It's just somantics, but meh. If your name isn't Queen Elizabeth II, and I find money on the ground, it isn't yours. I'm just tidying up the place a bit for the little lass.
edit: titles and stuff.
Post by: Orange Wizard on March 18, 2016, 03:36:43 am
As a result, the Queen of England and the British parliament have no direct influence over their former colonies. Any ties to England are basically just ceremonial (barring various treaties, but that's not the same thing as an empire).
Post by: sambojin on March 18, 2016, 03:48:59 am
Bloody hell. We're free!
(Order of the Knights Perpetual notwithstanding)
Post by: Majestic7 on March 18, 2016, 04:03:38 am
Fosters can't melt steel beams! Conspiracy confirmed! Wake up sheeple!
Post by: umiman on March 18, 2016, 04:04:36 am
Everyone knows Australians are not really humans. No human could survive out there. I was thinking about aliens (since that is where Occam's Razor always goes first), but then I heard about the drop bears. You see, the drop bear population is suffering from a chlamydia epidemic. Where did they get it originally? Obviously from fucking Aussies. This leads to the logical conclusion that all Aussies are drop bear hybrids masquerading as humans.Aren't Aussies just sentient, cannibalistic, shapeshifting Vegemites?
Foster's can't melt steel beams! Conspiracy confirmed!
Post by: Glloyd on March 18, 2016, 04:22:51 am
... no, the Governor-Generals have no power. Officially, they can reject legislation made by the local government (except in Australia, that power was revoked) but doing so would kick up a shitstorm (see Australia).
As a result, the Queen of England and the British parliament have no direct influence over their former colonies. Any ties to England are basically just ceremonial (barring various treaties, but that's not the same thing as an empire).
Also in practice in Canada the GG has been ceremonial only ever since the 1920's King-Byng affair. (also known as the King-Byng Wing Ding) That crisis pretty much led to the removal of direct British influence on the politics of the dominions.
Post by: sambojin on March 18, 2016, 06:29:32 am
Post by: gimli on March 18, 2016, 08:04:53 am
Everyone knows Australians are not really humans. No human could survive out there.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: redwallzyl on March 18, 2016, 09:26:56 am
(http://i.imgur.com/ANcpdUd.jpg)
i suspect they may add more before release and definitely have more released in the future.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on March 18, 2016, 09:28:43 am
Post by: Drakale on March 18, 2016, 10:03:57 am
The human portrait creep me out for some reason.
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 18, 2016, 10:13:26 am
Turtle guy in the reptilians is pretty good.Because the human one is gonna steal your shit
The human portrait creep me out for some reason.
Post by: gimli on March 18, 2016, 10:31:13 am
The human portrait creep me out for some reason.
Hah yeah, it's a weird looking one, probably because it has both feminine & masculine facial features. ???
Post by: Glloyd on March 18, 2016, 10:32:54 am
Post by: Majestic7 on March 18, 2016, 10:48:10 am
Regarding the portraits, I think PLANT is just a placeholder and they haven't finished them. Yick, I really want to genocide all the furries, but the insects and the tentacular dudes look awesome.
Post by: Descan on March 18, 2016, 12:19:58 pm
Fucking self-hating mammaloids.
Post by: Teneb on March 18, 2016, 12:21:53 pm
As soon as an alien species has fuzz, it's suddenly "furry" this and "genocide" that.The only good mammal is one with minimal body hair!
Fucking self-hating mammaloids.
Post by: Sirus on March 18, 2016, 12:25:23 pm
As soon as an alien species has fuzz, it's suddenly "furry" this and "genocide" that.I know what the First Rule of Descan says, but I'm 100% agreed with this anyway.
Fucking self-hating mammaloids.
Post by: Cruxador on March 18, 2016, 12:54:49 pm
As soon as an alien species has fuzz, it's suddenly "furry" this and "genocide" that.Sometimes you just want an excuse to commit genocide.
Fucking self-hating mammaloids.
Post by: Majestic7 on March 18, 2016, 01:01:49 pm
Post by: Cruxador on March 18, 2016, 01:57:28 pm
It seems that clothing styles are unique to body type and clade. The "avian" classification seems odd, since there's some without particularly clear avian features, and a mammal with feathered wings. And some of those arthropods are CLEARLY vertebrate.
Post by: umiman on March 18, 2016, 02:00:05 pm
A couple interesting things to note:Do you just nitpick everything?
It seems that clothing styles are unique to body type and clade. The "avian" classification seems odd, since there's some without particularly clear avian features, and a mammal with feathered wings. And some of those arthropods are CLEARLY vertebrate.
Post by: JumpingJack on March 18, 2016, 02:48:02 pm
A couple interesting things to note:Agreed. And did you see that last mammal with a bill? What's that about?
It seems that clothing styles are unique to body type and clade. The "avian" classification seems odd, since there's some without particularly clear avian features, and a mammal with feathered wings. And some of those arthropods are CLEARLY vertebrate.
snip dat picI'm torn between a glorious penguin empire and a commonwealth of turtles. Mushroom men are out; my ruler will inevitably be kidnapped.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on March 18, 2016, 03:08:51 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 18, 2016, 03:17:35 pm
Man, the artists had fun with these. Loving the art style. I feel strangely fascinated by the third-last Mammalian with the incredibly creepy grin. A face like that, you gotta go far.What about the second-last (in the first row) mollusc? The one besides Cthulhu. That one is surprisingly disturbing if you pay enough attention.
Post by: Culise on March 18, 2016, 03:22:15 pm
That one amuses me, though I'm not sure why. The face feels vaguely familiar for some reason.Man, the artists had fun with these. Loving the art style. I feel strangely fascinated by the third-last Mammalian with the incredibly creepy grin. A face like that, you gotta go far.What about the second-last (in the first row) mollusc? The one besides Cthulhu. That one is surprisingly disturbing if you pay enough attention.
Post by: gimli on March 18, 2016, 03:51:54 pm
Nothing for PLANT?
Leaked image
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Persus13 on March 18, 2016, 05:10:37 pm
Man, the artists had fun with these. Loving the art style. I feel strangely fascinated by the third-last Mammalian with the incredibly creepy grin. A face like that, you gotta go far.It looks like a bat of some kind.
Post by: BFEL on March 18, 2016, 06:28:40 pm
Specifically it looks like a vampire bat.Man, the artists had fun with these. Loving the art style. I feel strangely fascinated by the third-last Mammalian with the incredibly creepy grin. A face like that, you gotta go far.It looks like a bat of some kind.
Fruit bats tend to look like cute little foxes :3
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 18, 2016, 06:33:01 pm
From what I have seen, this game looks like it has some long legs in terms of replayability. Lots of race design options, ethics, etc. I like what I've seen, can't wait to get my paws on it.
Post by: redwallzyl on March 18, 2016, 08:11:11 pm
What about the second-last (in the first row) mollusc? The one besides Cthulhu. That one is surprisingly disturbing if you pay enough attention.
Spoiler: Is that a (click to show/hide)
Post by: Drakale on March 19, 2016, 12:18:28 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Orange Wizard on March 19, 2016, 12:19:29 am
Post by: Sirus on March 19, 2016, 01:58:52 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on March 19, 2016, 02:16:24 am
Post by: Rolan7 on March 19, 2016, 09:32:18 am
Improved versionI laughed
I don't know who I'll pick first yet, just impressed at the art. Was planning on plants, but I actually really like the human portrait. I imagine it might be how humans look to aliens, who aren't trained to pick up on facial indicators of gender.
Probably still going to be a plant, but hopefully humans spawn in my galaxy!
Post by: Teneb on March 19, 2016, 10:14:48 am
Probably going with fungoids or the molluscoids (in particular the second last (not just of the first row), the now-famed Scallophead (as named by the various memes in the official forum)).Improved versionI laughed
I don't know who I'll pick first yet, just impressed at the art. Was planning on plants, but I actually really like the human portrait. I imagine it might be how humans look to aliens, who aren't trained to pick up on facial indicators of gender.
Probably still going to be a plant, but hopefully humans spawn in my galaxy!
Post by: gimli on March 19, 2016, 10:45:03 am
Improved versionSpoiler (click to show/hide)
Good one! :D
The sad thing is even with a bajillion mods I'll probably still pay for the addition portrait content packs.
Yep, just like me. Damn you, Paradox! :P
Post by: Man of Paper on March 19, 2016, 10:51:59 am
Post by: umiman on March 19, 2016, 12:18:33 pm
They're one of the few companies that I'll buy the meaningless cosmetic stuff for because they make actual meaningful dlc more so than most other people.Ya.
I think I have every single piece of DLC they put out for CK2 except for the EU converter.
Post by: Teneb on March 19, 2016, 02:40:42 pm
I have the converter, though I skipped the e-books they put up as dlc.They're one of the few companies that I'll buy the meaningless cosmetic stuff for because they make actual meaningful dlc more so than most other people.Ya.
I think I have every single piece of DLC they put out for CK2 except for the EU converter.
Post by: Culise on March 21, 2016, 08:25:10 am
Unfortunately for all our Imperium of Man players, there's not much actual detail on purges, other than that they exist and spark strong reactions. Interesting to see how it ties to traits, though - fanatic individualists can implement slavery if they are also decadent, f'rex, and you have to be xenophobic to restrict slavery to xenos only. Collectivists will be more pliable as slaves than individualists, as well.
Post by: Ghazkull on March 21, 2016, 08:56:26 am
1. Enact Forcibel Resettlement Policy
2. Get Migration Treaty with Neighbour
3. Resettle rebellious populace to his planets -> A. Less Rebellious Pops in your Empire, B. Casus Belli: Anschluss
4. "Hey those are a majority of my people on your planets!"
5. Invade
6. Enslave.
7. Rinse Repeat
I also like the idea of lawless and rebellious pops moving towards the outer rim of your empire, prevents in emprie rebellions.
A bit weird though with the Aliens Only and Everyone Enslave policy. Since you are the one which pops to enslave in the first place...O_o
This gives me however a hilarious idea:
1.Give Migration treaties to all the other empires out there
2.Make your Empire very very interesting for them to move to
3.Enslave Migrants
4.???
5. Sell Slaves for Profit back to Mother Empires XD
Post by: Toaster on March 21, 2016, 09:00:49 am
It's an interesting mechanic, to be sure. I can see an "population expansionist" game using "my people live there" CBs to run roughshod over neighbors.
Post by: Culise on March 21, 2016, 09:11:53 am
oh i like those forcible resettlement and migration mechanics. That allows for some evil plans:
1. Enact Forcibel Resettlement Policy
2. Get Migration Treaty with Neighbour
3. Resettle rebellious populace to his planets -> A. Less Rebellious Pops in your Empire, B. Casus Belli: Anschluss
4. "Hey those are a majority of my people on your planets!"
5. Invade
6. Enslave.
7. Rinse Repeat
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Majestic7 on March 21, 2016, 09:22:09 am
I presume you can use alien pops to colonize planets your native pops don't like, thus making them somewhat useful beyond the immediate usage. Of course, having planets solely populated by non-native species in your empire must pose some unique risks.
I wonder if you can have slave planets populated by only slaves with troops keeping order.
Post by: Descan on March 21, 2016, 09:22:10 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 21, 2016, 09:46:04 am
I wonder if you can have slave planets populated by only slaves with troops keeping order.Space Gulag
Post by: Descan on March 21, 2016, 09:57:30 am
Post by: Egan_BW on March 21, 2016, 10:25:09 am
Post by: gimli on March 21, 2016, 02:02:26 pm
Stellaris Dev Diary #26 - Migration, Slavery & Purges (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-26-migration-slavery-purges.914917/)
PD knows something.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Orange Wizard on March 21, 2016, 08:24:41 pm
I actually really like the human portrait. I imagine it might be how humans look to aliens, who aren't trained to pick up on facial indicators of gender.Oh yeah, that is actually really cool.
Post by: Cruxador on March 22, 2016, 08:55:22 pm
I demand more portraitsFor just a few shekels a pop, there'll be scores of new portraits.
It'll probably take DLC for a better slavery system too, since right now apparently you just click a pop and select "enslave". Right now if you wanted to be slavers, you'd have to play xenophobe with open borders (preferably to fanatical collectivists) and enslave immigrant xeno citizens, which doesn't make much sense.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on March 22, 2016, 09:10:04 pm
Post by: Man of Paper on March 23, 2016, 02:38:56 am
I demand more portraitsFor just a few shekels a pop, there'll be scores of new portraits.
It'll probably take DLC for a better slavery system too, since right now apparently you just click a pop and select "enslave". Right now if you wanted to be slavers, you'd have to play xenophobe with open borders (preferably to fanatical collectivists) and enslave immigrant xeno citizens, which doesn't make much sense.
I imagine it'd play out something like
"By Space, Blorgth Jr., we have finally made it to Spacerica, chan! We can prosper on this alien world and cast aside the shackles of our past, tho!"
"Hi I'm Customsmans and here's some actual shackles. Welcome to Spacerica, Xenos Scum!"
I'm tired, don't judge me. I'm gonna go to sleep now.
Post by: Majestic7 on March 23, 2016, 06:48:45 am
So only populations that are starving, oppressed and whatever would voluntarily move somewhere to be enslaved. (I wonder if you can sell your pops to enslavers, tho.) In most cases you'd only enslave xenos by conquering or uplifting them or alternatively, by first holding open borders then slapping slavery on them later. "Surprise, immigrants!" I imagine that would include quite a lot of unrest.
Post by: gimli on March 23, 2016, 08:15:02 am
It'll probably take DLC for a better ground combat system too
There, I fixed it. I am 99% sure that it will be overly simplistic [IE. shit] in vanilla. Heh...I guess that's why we have zero [correct me if I am wrong] information [& no DDs] about it.
Anyway, it would be good to have a complex gc system 5 expansions later...[ ex. surface combat in MoO 3.]
Post by: Greenbane on March 23, 2016, 08:50:23 am
It's frankly stupid to assume multiculturalism can just be copy-pasted from an Earth context to a galactic scale. Not to mention it dilutes the point of having varied alien empires, if half of them will be largely the same multicultural mess. Political entities in Stellaris should be far more different from each other than England and France in EU.
But well, I suppose Stellaris is going after the tired, clichéd "aliens as humans with rubber foreheads" species differentiation method.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on March 23, 2016, 08:55:34 am
heard u was talking' shit, boi
Post by: Greenbane on March 23, 2016, 09:36:46 am
Did you LOOK at the fungoids?
Anyways, we don't have any *actual* aliens to observe, so for all we know stellaris could be correct in how cultures work. Or it could be the opposite end of the scale, who knows?
The cliché I mentioned exceeds mere appearances, despite the name. It doesn't matter if fungoids look very alien if they're functionally the same as humans and have no significant problems sharing the same atmosphere, ecosystem and society.
Anyway, despite the possible expansion of the criticism, I was restricting it to the overly permissive migration mechanics. Most space 4X games severely restrict multiculturalism for a reason.
And no, while we haven't encountered any actual aliens, it's next to impossible they'll be compatible with humans in so many ways as to permit local coexistence in a remotely similar fashion to the one we share with fellow humans.
We are who we are and how we are due to the ever-increasing unique, monumental combination of variables that has shaped our entire evolution and history since the dawn of the Earth. It's absurdly unlikely, to the point of virtual impossibility, that an alien species would share even a fraction of the aforementioned variables with us, combined in a remotely similar way.
Post by: Cicero on March 23, 2016, 09:45:28 am
Did you LOOK at the fungoids?
Anyways, we don't have any *actual* aliens to observe, so for all we know stellaris could be correct in how cultures work. Or it could be the opposite end of the scale, who knows?
The cliché I mentioned exceeds mere appearances, despite the name. It doesn't matter if fungoids look very alien if they're functionally the same as humans and have no significant problems sharing the same atmosphere, ecosystem and society.
Anyway, despite the possible expansion of the criticism, I was restricting it to the overly permissive migration mechanics. Most space 4X games severely restrict multiculturalism for a reason.
And no, while we haven't encountered any actual aliens, it's next to impossible they'll be compatible with humans in so many ways as to permit local coexistence in a remotely similar fashion to the one we share with fellow humans.
We are who we are and how we are due to the ever-increasing unique, monumental combination of variables that has shaped our entire evolution and history since the dawn of the Earth. It's absurdly unlikely, to the point of virtual impossibility, that an alien species would share even a fraction of the aforementioned variables with us, combined in a remotely similar way.
Okay but most 4x games also play in a very similar "war of all against all" sort of way. Paradox has stated that they aim to shake up the solidified 4x paradigm by adding a greater emphasis on diplomacy.
They've also stated that they are going for a soft sci-fi feel. Lots of soft sci-fi depicts aliens and humans living and working together (ie: Mass Effect) Alien multiculturalism might not be "realistic" (whatever that is supposed to mean) but it seems like a fun mechanic (letting your people migrate to an empire and then using their presence as an excuse to invade them sounds hilarious). I think the fun factor should trump whether it is realistic for aliens to live together.
Post by: Greenbane on March 23, 2016, 10:10:16 am
Okay but most 4x games also play in a very similar "war of all against all" sort of way. Paradox has stated that they aim to shake up the solidified 4x paradigm by adding a greater emphasis on diplomacy.
They've also stated that they are going for a soft sci-fi feel. Lots of soft sci-fi depicts aliens and humans living and working together (ie: Mass Effect) Alien multiculturalism might not be "realistic" (whatever that is supposed to mean) but it seems like a fun mechanic (letting your people migrate to an empire and then using their presence as an excuse to invade them sounds hilarious). I think the fun factor should trump whether it is realistic for aliens to live together.
Well, my concern comes only partly from the realism perspective. The other side is that it's extremely similar to how culture works in other Paradox games. It's not particularly groundbreaking.
By the way, my realism perspective isn't quite so much as "this or that should be hard sci-fi-like" than "don't make it too fake". I suppose everyone has different tolerances, but I find it jarring and overly simplistic that supposedly alien species could closely work together as if they were the same damn species. It defeats the point of having aliens in the picture in the first place. Anyway, the more you know and all that.
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on March 23, 2016, 10:11:20 am
Post by: Cicero on March 23, 2016, 10:17:18 am
Okay but most 4x games also play in a very similar "war of all against all" sort of way. Paradox has stated that they aim to shake up the solidified 4x paradigm by adding a greater emphasis on diplomacy.
They've also stated that they are going for a soft sci-fi feel. Lots of soft sci-fi depicts aliens and humans living and working together (ie: Mass Effect) Alien multiculturalism might not be "realistic" (whatever that is supposed to mean) but it seems like a fun mechanic (letting your people migrate to an empire and then using their presence as an excuse to invade them sounds hilarious). I think the fun factor should trump whether it is realistic for aliens to live together.
Well, my concern comes only partly from the realism perspective. The other side is that it's extremely similar to how culture works in other Paradox games. It's not particularly groundbreaking.
By the way, my realism perspective isn't quite so much as "this or that should be hard sci-fi-like" than "don't make it too fake". I suppose everyone has different tolerances, but I find it jarring and overly simplistic that supposedly alien species could closely work together as if they were the same damn species. It defeats the point of having aliens in the picture in the first place. Anyway, the more you know and all that.
Oh yeah your perspective makes sense. I'm hoping they make it a lot like Victoria 2, where non-accepted cultures join factions if they live in their core provinces, and if you elect a racist party will join general revolutionary factions to protect themselves. It would be pretty bad if they made it CK2/EU4 style, but I think the pops system lends it to the more complex Victoria 2 style of culture.
Post by: gimli on March 23, 2016, 10:42:07 am
I'm not sure interspecies migration mechanics make much sense in most cases. We aren't talking about Victoria or EU or whatever, which feature a fundamentally homogeneous world. In a space 4X context, we're dealing with vast differences between species, from cultural to biological, and mingling is (or should be) extremely difficult if not impossible.
Well, my concern comes only partly from the realism perspective.
Realism? In a sci-fi game? Realism is the last thing we need.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 23, 2016, 10:48:57 am
I'm not sure interspecies migration mechanics make much sense in most cases. We aren't talking about Victoria or EU or whatever, which feature a fundamentally homogeneous world. In a space 4X context, we're dealing with vast differences between species, from cultural to biological, and mingling is (or should be) extremely difficult if not impossible.
It's frankly stupid to assume multiculturalism can just be copy-pasted from an Earth context to a galactic scale. Not to mention it dilutes the point of having varied alien empires, if half of them will be largely the same multicultural mess. Political entities in Stellaris should be far more different from each other than England and France in EU.
But well, I suppose Stellaris is going after the tired, clichéd "aliens as humans with rubber foreheads" species differentiation method.
You're assuming that they'll be "mingling" in the sense of living in the same cities. But the equivalent to a "city" or "province" here is an entire planet, or at least a moon-sized object. Because planets have tiles, you'll probably end up with a situation where certain pops are living in certain tiles on a planet, and other pops are living in other tiles. Like insects in underground cave biomes and deserts and mammals on forest tiles. In other words, they might inhabit the same planet, but they wouldn't really be "mingling" together much, like humans and dolphins IRL.
I also found your post ironic or a more meta-level, which is that it assumes that aliens will have any kinds of concepts of "self" or "empire" or "culture." If we're going down the path of "what's 'too fake' about this situation" then "multiculturalism in space" is the least of your worries.
Post by: Greenbane on March 23, 2016, 10:51:45 am
Realism? In a sci-fi game? Realism is the last thing we need.
I'm endlessly amazed by the sheer amount of sci-fi fans who don't know what science fiction means.
But I've made my point.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 23, 2016, 11:02:36 am
You have some good points about the practicality of alien races mingling, but I think ZeroGravitas has it right. Xenos can coexist on a planet, and share culture while producing for a common goal. Just look at the wild ideas humans are capable of embracing. You might be overstating the physical barriers to cultural exchange.
Post by: gimli on March 23, 2016, 11:30:37 am
Realism? In a sci-fi game? Realism is the last thing we need.
I'm endlessly amazed by the sheer amount of sci-fi fans who don't know what science fiction means.
But I've made my point.
I agree with this:
science fiction - the improbable made possible
fantasy - the impossible made probable
science fantasy - the combination of those 2, obviously. [It gives a scientific veneer of realism to things that simply could not happen in the real world under any circumstances. Where science fiction does not permit the existence of fantasy or supernatural elements, science fantasy explicitly relies upon them.] Ex.: Star Wars
Oh and btw, this is worth a look [Warning! 4182x2162 image] ->
Spoiler: The history of sci-fi (click to show/hide)
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 23, 2016, 11:44:02 am
Post by: Drakale on March 23, 2016, 11:55:54 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 23, 2016, 12:20:22 pm
It's a pretty hard to parse chart, but it does put across the point that you can't really constrain so many different styles under a single term without ruffling some feathers.
especially because it tries to categorize by format as much as by subgenre
Post by: Greenbane on March 23, 2016, 01:00:13 pm
You have some good points about the practicality of alien races mingling, but I think ZeroGravitas has it right. Xenos can coexist on a planet, and share culture while producing for a common goal. Just look at the wild ideas humans are capable of embracing. You might be overstating the physical barriers to cultural exchange.
We're fairly frequently at each other's throats on our own planet, within our own species. I can't fathom how two vastly different species would not be warring constantly if stuck on a planet together, especially if we consider things like natural resources. Worse, I don't see how the newer species would've put themselves in that position willingly (without nefarious intent), and the older not consider such intrusion an invasion.
How would we react, having enough trouble sharing resources with each other, if an alien species descended upon Earth and marked its territory, therefore restricting our own and everything that entails? What if the aforementioned dolphins were actually sapient, had a fully industrialized civilization, and declared large swathes of ocean their territory, asking some manner of payment to permit exploitation therein? It wouldn't be remotely pretty.
Or far more locally and personally, how would you feel if any random person walked into your home and said "okay, so I'm living here from now on"?
At any rate, we'll see how Stellaris deals with this in practice. Perhaps this faux multiculturalism won't be as widespread as I think.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on March 23, 2016, 01:05:47 pm
Post by: Cruxador on March 23, 2016, 01:30:43 pm
I suspect ground combat is going to be pretty much the same as assaulting a fort. Maybe like an EU4 one where you take the planet all at once, or maybe like a CK2 one where you have to take every land area (that has pops) individually, but I see no reason that this needs to have more detail to it than that.It'll probably take DLC for a better ground combat system too
There, I fixed it. I am 99% sure that it will be overly simplistic [IE. shit] in vanilla. Heh...I guess that's why we have zero [correct me if I am wrong] information [& no DDs] about it.
Anyway, it would be good to have a complex gc system 5 expansions later...[ ex. surface combat in MoO 3.]
Anyway, despite the possible expansion of the criticism, I was restricting it to the overly permissive migration mechanics. Most space 4X games severely restrict multiculturalism for a reason.While I agree that in the strictest sense of realism, there would probably be vast differences between two species that make cohabitation and co-rule very impractical, I disagree with the notion that this automatically makes it bad to represent it in fiction that way. While it's true that real aliens will undoubtedly be extremely, you know, alien to us, and their very thought processes might be at best bewildering, this is a game by and for humans. We need to be able to understand our fellow beings to a certain degree, or their would be nothing to the game but conquest and extermination.
Further, I'm reasonably certain that the reason most 4X space games restrict multiculturalism is technical. There isn't a detailed modelling of pops that would be necessary for more integrated settings, and those games are mostly supposed to be about conquest anyway. Stellaris, while it contains 4X elements, is also a traditional Paradox grand strategy game in a lot of ways, and although Paradox isn't always successful one of the things they try to do is make their games about more than just blobbing. I consider this an asset.
The other side is that it's extremely similar to how culture works in other Paradox games. It's not particularly groundbreaking.Why fix what ain't broke?
but I find it jarring and overly simplistic that supposedly alien species could closely work together as if they were the same damn species. It defeats the point of having aliens in the picture in the first place. Anyway, the more you know and all that.[/quote]Well, they're not the same. Each species will have inherent traits, including some you pick yourself and preferences for certain types of worlds. I'm not sure what "point" of alien species you think is being defeated here.
Because planets have tiles, you'll probably end up with a situation where certain pops are living in certain tiles on a planet, and other pops are living in other tiles.Is this really still a "probably"? I haven't seen any indication that there can be pop variation in any way on a given tile.
Post by: Shadowlord on March 23, 2016, 02:24:15 pm
I suspect ground combat is going to be pretty much the same as assaulting a fort.It'll probably take DLC for a better ground combat system too
There, I fixed it. I am 99% sure that it will be overly simplistic [IE. shit] in vanilla. Heh...I guess that's why we have zero [correct me if I am wrong] information [& no DDs] about it.
Anyway, it would be good to have a complex gc system 5 expansions later...[ ex. surface combat in MoO 3.]
Hype much?
Post by: gimli on March 23, 2016, 03:14:05 pm
Anyway, I'e found a screenshot with regard to the "Armies" TAB:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Hm....perhaps we are going to have 3 phases of combat? [orbital/aerial/ground]
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 23, 2016, 03:40:08 pm
We're fairly frequently at each other's throats on our own planet, within our own species.
Because we have the same biology and the same technology. We compete for the same things. Even though China is different from the US, they're competing using the same human standards for the same human things.
Quote
I can't fathom how two vastly different species would not be warring constantly if stuck on a planet together, especially if we consider things like natural resources.
Again, you're assuming they have the same physical needs. Our food needs are fairly specific. Maybe the aliens are equally specific and don't overlap (like they eat basal wood and dirt, or something). Or they're totally nonspecific and they can eat everything. Imagine they can "eat" basically any organic matter and have symbiotic yeasts inside of them that distill "garbage" to make digestible "food" for aliens.
Quote
Worse, I don't see how the newer species would've put themselves in that position willingly (without nefarious intent), and the older not consider such intrusion an invasion.
Incredibly context dependent. Maybe it's a planet that was part of no recognized political entity, or perhaps claimed by both, and only lightly settled by both over time. This question is meaningless.
Quote
How would we react, having enough trouble sharing resources with each other, if an alien species descended upon Earth and marked its territory, therefore restricting our own and everything that entails? What if the aforementioned dolphins were actually sapient, had a fully industrialized civilization, and declared large swathes of ocean their territory, asking some manner of payment to permit exploitation therein? It wouldn't be remotely pretty.
Uh... the vast, vast majority of the Earth's oceans are totally useless to us. Think of how useless huge tracts of Siberia and North America are (western US and Canada in particular). Then imagine those useless tracts of land covered by miles of ocean. And that's 2/3rd of the Earth's surface. If industrialized dolphins could do anything remotely useful with the ocean it would be a godsend. They could do whatever it is they want to do down there and anything we could trade with them for would be profit to us.
Quote
Or far more locally and personally, how would you feel if any random person walked into your home and said "okay, so I'm living here from now on"?
You have no imagination.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 23, 2016, 03:47:21 pm
Post by: Greenbane on March 23, 2016, 03:58:42 pm
Moving on, that ground battle screen looks interesting. The battle could have three phases and they may not even be sequential: the war on the ground might be the decisive part for the attacker, but wouldn't sustain itself without maintaining superiority in the air and orbit. And there's generals involved as well. Sort of reminds me of Hearts of Iron.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 23, 2016, 04:16:55 pm
Yeah, a significant bunch of aliens we meet are likely to be superbly symbiotic with us: they will do exactly what we don't need/want to do and viceversa.
Actually, most likely they don't breathe oxygen or survive in the same temperature range as us.
Quote
No clash whatsoever, and everyone gets rich. Nobody else wants common mineral resources like metals, so we can keep them to ourselves hassle-free.
Like you just said: minerals and metals are common. There is no need to fight over them. If you have a space-faring civilization, the idea that you would land on a planet to get metals is idiotic. Once you are flying in space, the last thing you do is land to get metal. This isn't a matter of science fiction; it's pure physics. Why would you land on a planet to get 1000 tons of nickel-iron ore when you can find the same thing floating in space, or on an uninhabited moon?
Quote
And the oceans are useless. Who needs water, food or more resources exploitable with future technology?
The oceans are useless to us, yes. Not sure what species you're a part of, but us humans don't have a use for seawater in any real capacity. Fish and sea plants are an incredibly minor part of human diets.
Sentient dolphins would probably increase human food and mineral availability, not decrease it. Growing kelp on the seabed is really difficult if you're a human. Presumably it's much easier if you're a sentient dolphin. Same thing with, say, deep water oil drilling and mining. Dolphin workers would be great both for extraction and for environmental cleanup.
Quote
Because it's all about just food, right? And that's bound to be different and entirely non-invasive and non-overlapping for each species, just like their preferred habitats. And who needs territory anyway? I mean, there's a whole universe out there, sure, but let's all share planets since that's bound to generate no significant degree of conflict at all.
I'm glad you're so sure about a hypothetical thing we have never observed a single example of. There could be interspecies conflicts, but there is little reason to think it would be motivated by the same things as intraspecies conflicts.
Post by: Retropunch on March 23, 2016, 04:35:02 pm
Yeah, a significant bunch of aliens we meet are likely to be superbly symbiotic with us: they will do exactly what we don't need/want to do and viceversa. No clash whatsoever, and everyone gets rich. Nobody else wants common mineral resources like metals, so we can keep them to ourselves hassle-free. And the oceans are useless. Who needs water, food or more resources exploitable with future technology? Because it's all about just food, right? And that's bound to be different and entirely non-invasive and non-overlapping for each species, just like their preferred habitats. And who needs territory anyway? I mean, there's a whole universe out there, sure, but let's all share planets since that's bound to generate no significant degree of conflict at all.
You're also overlooking that we blow each other up just for funsies sometimes. Literally ten minutes into meeting the first extraterrestrial life form we will claim they worship false gods/stole our oil/have WMDs/look funny and go to war with them about it.
Post by: gimli on March 23, 2016, 04:43:39 pm
Yeah, a significant bunch of aliens we meet are likely to be superbly symbiotic with us: they will do exactly what we don't need/want to do and viceversa. No clash whatsoever, and everyone gets rich. Nobody else wants common mineral resources like metals, so we can keep them to ourselves hassle-free. And the oceans are useless. Who needs water, food or more resources exploitable with future technology? Because it's all about just food, right? And that's bound to be different and entirely non-invasive and non-overlapping for each species, just like their preferred habitats. And who needs territory anyway? I mean, there's a whole universe out there, sure, but let's all share planets since that's bound to generate no significant degree of conflict at all.
You're also overlooking that we blow each other up just for funsies sometimes. Literally ten minutes into meeting the first extraterrestrial life form we will claim they worship false gods/stole our oil/have WMDs/look funny and go to war with them about it.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolan7 on March 23, 2016, 05:14:35 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on March 23, 2016, 05:19:12 pm
Yeah, a significant bunch of aliens we meet are likely to be superbly symbiotic with us: they will do exactly what we don't need/want to do and viceversa. No clash whatsoever, and everyone gets rich. Nobody else wants common mineral resources like metals, so we can keep them to ourselves hassle-free. And the oceans are useless. Who needs water, food or more resources exploitable with future technology? Because it's all about just food, right? And that's bound to be different and entirely non-invasive and non-overlapping for each species, just like their preferred habitats. And who needs territory anyway? I mean, there's a whole universe out there, sure, but let's all share planets since that's bound to generate no significant degree of conflict at all.
You're also overlooking that we blow each other up just for funsies sometimes. Literally ten minutes into meeting the first extraterrestrial life form we will claim they worship false gods/stole our oil/have WMDs/look funny and go to war with them about it.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So, languages, are they a thing?
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on March 23, 2016, 05:55:17 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 23, 2016, 05:57:10 pm
Loving the ridiculous arguments and stuff, but since it has zero real relevance to the game could we like... stay on topic? I for one look forward to intergalactic slavery in all its wondrous forms.Fungoid master race will enslave all others.
Post by: Cruxador on March 23, 2016, 05:57:42 pm
So, languages, are they a thing?There are communication difficulties at first contact, then you need to research the new neighbor, and after that language differences are irrelevant.
Loving the ridiculous arguments and stuff, but since it has zero real relevance to the game could we like... stay on topic? I for one look forward to intergalactic slavery in all its wondrous forms.This post contributes less to the conversation than the ones preceding it.
Post by: Orange Wizard on March 23, 2016, 06:01:35 pm
Yeah, both sides would (presumably) have a vested interest in communicating, and would be willing to co-operate for translators and such.So, languages, are they a thing?There are communication difficulties at first contact, then you need to research the new neighbor, and after that language differences are irrelevant.
Post by: majikero on March 23, 2016, 06:28:55 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on March 23, 2016, 07:16:34 pm
I think one of the dev diary said that taking an alien planet instantly unlocks their language but they will forever remember the "first contact war".
If I recall correctly that only applies when you declare war on them basically as soon as you meet them and they haven't discovered you (or something like that)
Post by: Dostoevsky on March 23, 2016, 08:58:52 pm
The oceans are useless to us, yes. Not sure what species you're a part of, but us humans don't have a use for seawater in any real capacity. Fish and sea plants are an incredibly minor part of human diets.
The report is close to 10 years old now, but according to the UN Food and Ag organization fish accounted for 15.7% of the world's animal protein intake and just over 6% of all protein consumed. A sizable portion of that comes from aquaculture, but a sizable portion remains fishing. I'd argue that's not an insignificant portion. Not sure if you're from the US, but as I understand it the US tends to be a bit of an aberration on the fish consumption front (what with our cheap factory landmeats).
I'd also like to note that overfishing is a very real issue. Again using slightly old numbers, the percentage of fish stocks that are 'underexploited' has plummeted over the last few decades from ~40% to ~15%. Roughly 50 percent are 'fully exploited', and about 28 percent are 'overexploited' (the remainder are depleted or recovering from depletion).
On the game-related front--
I think one of the dev diary said that taking an alien planet instantly unlocks their language but they will forever remember the "first contact war".
If I recall correctly that only applies when you declare war on them basically as soon as you meet them and they haven't discovered you (or something like that)
From Dev Diary #20: "Like in most of our games, occupying a planet with your armies does not mean it immediately becomes yours, of course; you need to demand it in the peace talks. There is a notable exception to this rule though; so called first contact wars. Before you have established communications with another civilization, it is possible to simply attack them and even take one of their planets (but once you take a planet, communications are immediately established.) Of course, such early hostility will never be forgotten, and will sour your relations for the rest of the game "
Post by: Chiefwaffles on March 23, 2016, 09:19:34 pm
Post by: Cruxador on March 24, 2016, 12:11:03 am
From Dev Diary #20:The stuff about languages specifically isn't in a dev diary, it was in one of the press demos they did.
Post by: redwallzyl on March 24, 2016, 11:04:53 am
(https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?attachments/blorg_fb_stream2-jpg.165941/)
Post by: Greenbane on March 24, 2016, 11:14:01 am
One thing which somewhat concerned me is the race portraits. They look great, and there's a lot of variety when it comes to race generation. However, there's a single portrait per race, apparently, and you see the same guy in every pop, character and officer. I realize it might seem unfeasible to ask for portrait subdivision (a la MoO2), but it looks quite repetitive as it is. I'm almost sure, however, that they're aware of this, and that their solution will be a procession of paid portrait packs, if CK2 is any indication.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 24, 2016, 01:16:58 pm
The oceans are useless to us, yes. Not sure what species you're a part of, but us humans don't have a use for seawater in any real capacity. Fish and sea plants are an incredibly minor part of human diets.
The report is close to 10 years old now, but according to the UN Food and Ag organization fish accounted for 15.7% of the world's animal protein intake and just over 6% of all protein consumed. A sizable portion of that comes from aquaculture, but a sizable portion remains fishing. I'd argue that's not an insignificant portion. Not sure if you're from the US, but as I understand it the US tends to be a bit of an aberration on the fish consumption front (what with our cheap factory landmeats).
I'd also like to note that overfishing is a very real issue. Again using slightly old numbers, the percentage of fish stocks that are 'underexploited' has plummeted over the last few decades from ~40% to ~15%. Roughly 50 percent are 'fully exploited', and about 28 percent are 'overexploited' (the remainder are depleted or recovering from depletion).
Thanks for that stat - I was actually looking for it myself. What's interesting is it shows just how little protein we do get from the ocean (94% of protein comes from somewhere else) but I think we could actually increase that if we had sentient dolphins.
Overfishing is a huge problem, and it's really tough to monitor millions of square miles of ocean. But imagine the reverse: we're a sentient ocean species that can't survive on land without specific equipment. Yet we really like beef. Could we send out parties to capture wild cattle or buffalo and return it to the ocean? Of course. But if there were some terrestrial species that lived above water natively, they could set up some entire industrial process by which they bred cattle, herded them, and slaughtered them efficiently. It would make zero sense for us to go to war with that terrestrial species over cattle. And they'd do a much better job of policing their own herds than we could trying to enforce our own overhunting laws.
And that's why sentient dolphins would represent an increase in net resources, not a decrease. We'd probably see a net increase (haha, fishing pun) if dolphins could industrial aquaculture and fish farming and trade with us. I bet they really love shiny metal jewelry that is hard to forge underwater, or something.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 24, 2016, 01:24:17 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 24, 2016, 01:40:03 pm
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on March 24, 2016, 01:55:54 pm
Just watched today's stream, and the game looks pretty good, though perhaps unremarkable to a certain extent. Well, it's the standard 4X fare plus some known Paradox mechanics. I'm sure they'll expand Stellaris considerably with a seemingly endless parade of DLC, but the base game may not be particularly stellar, if you'll pardon the pun.If you pay attention to their previous stream, there was a screen where you can adjust variations of the portrait. Gender, phenotype, color variant, clothes, and "style" whatever it means, were present as options. I take that to mean that there will be randomized variants for different portraits once the variants are actually available.
One thing which somewhat concerned me is the race portraits. They look great, and there's a lot of variety when it comes to race generation. However, there's a single portrait per race, apparently, and you see the same guy in every pop, character and officer. I realize it might seem unfeasible to ask for portrait subdivision (a la MoO2), but it looks quite repetitive as it is. I'm almost sure, however, that they're aware of this, and that their solution will be a procession of paid portrait packs, if CK2 is any indication.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on March 24, 2016, 03:17:35 pm
Post by: Man of Paper on March 24, 2016, 04:58:37 pm
Post by: Dostoevsky on March 24, 2016, 05:53:16 pm
From Dev Diary #20:The stuff about languages specifically isn't in a dev diary, it was in one of the press demos they did.
I had interpreted 'establish communications' in dev diary #20 as gaining sufficient knowledge of language, but they very well could be separate things.
Thanks for that stat - I was actually looking for it myself. What's interesting is it shows just how little protein we do get from the ocean (94% of protein comes from somewhere else) but I think we could actually increase that if we had sentient dolphins.
Overfishing is a huge problem, and it's really tough to monitor millions of square miles of ocean. But imagine the reverse: we're a sentient ocean species that can't survive on land without specific equipment. Yet we really like beef. Could we send out parties to capture wild cattle or buffalo and return it to the ocean? Of course. But if there were some terrestrial species that lived above water natively, they could set up some entire industrial process by which they bred cattle, herded them, and slaughtered them efficiently. It would make zero sense for us to go to war with that terrestrial species over cattle. And they'd do a much better job of policing their own herds than we could trying to enforce our own overhunting laws.
And that's why sentient dolphins would represent an increase in net resources, not a decrease. We'd probably see a net increase (haha, fishing pun) if dolphins could industrial aquaculture and fish farming and trade with us. I bet they really love shiny metal jewelry that is hard to forge underwater, or something.
Don't have a citation for this one, alas, but as I understand it we (humans, that is) have gotten very good at freshwater aquaculture but not so much saltwater aquaculture. So hypothetical dolphins could be a gain in that regard. But there's a lot we don't know about the nutrient-exploitable potential of the ocean compared to land, so it's hard to say given an equivalent level of technology a ocean-borne species could harvest the ocean as efficiently as humans can the land (maybe more, maybe less).
On the other other hand, if we had sentient dolphins with population levels similar to the number of humans currently on the earth I suspect it would be quite difficult supplying enough raw nutrition, let alone meat.
(On the other other other hand, if we had hyperdrive-era power sources we could probably find a way around a lot of these problems through application of massive amounts of energy.)
But none of this really gets into the behavioral question - could they get along, assuming it's in their interest to do so? Given my experience with human nature it seems like the potentially-rational choice of cooperation might not be very likely, and who can say what sentient dolphin culture would be like.
Post by: sambojin on March 24, 2016, 07:56:59 pm
Fish live in our water. Some in fresh, some in brackish, some in salty. But how salty? And at what temperature and depth (pressure/gravity)? How much oxygen in the water? How much mineral content is tolerable, or pH levels?
A terrestrial/aquatic meeting might be rare in itself. Having a remotely compatible one, for a particular environmental subset, even rarer. They may wish to "pollute the hell" out of our oceans, just to be able to live in them.
Back on topic, I'm wondering if the portraits are going to be paper-dolled clothes/paraphernalia with base colour changing options. Makes sense. Maybe 2-3 portraits a race, with 3-5 clothes options, coloured randomly (or perhaps in a base palette for that race's "hat"). It'd give a bit of variation anyway. Easier than hundreds of individual portraits certainly, and allows for clothed, unclothed, bejeweled or semi-cyborg variations of each base race.
The portraits all line up nicely pixel-wise for paper-dolling in any case.
Post by: Dostoevsky on March 24, 2016, 08:05:42 pm
[more discussion of space dolphins]
Yeah, I was just working off the assumption they happened to actually work in water (or that sentient dolphins had just always been around).
Back on topic, I'm wondering if the portraits are going to be paper-dolled clothes/paraphernalia with base colour changing options. Makes sense. Maybe 2-3 portraits a race, with 3-5 clothes options, coloured randomly (or perhaps in a base palette for that race's "hat"). It'd give a bit of variation anyway. Easier than hundreds of individual portraits certainly, and allows for clothed, unclothed, bejeweled or semi-cyborg variations of each base race.
The portraits all line up nicely pixel-wise for paper-dolling in any case.
I could swear one of the dev diaries touched on this too... ah - #6:
"Now, as you remember from last weeks diary, there are about a hundred different alien race portraits in the game. Thus, we initially felt that lesser leaders should not have actual portraits, because we could not possibly produce enough of them to provide the requisite variety. But then, the artists started to experiment with different backgrounds and clothes, which thankfully proved sufficient to allow all leaders to show a portrait.
The different types of leaders all use different sets of clothes. This helps increases variety, but also reinforces their role, with admirals having a militaristic uniform, governors being more casually dressed, and scientist being a bit more techy. Clothes are shared between some of the more similar species, because creating five unique apparels for each species is just an enormous amount of work. (Not all species wear clothes though; it would be odd if this was every alien races custom.)
I expect that humans will be by far the most popular race to play. Therefore, they are getting some special attention with different ethnicities, genders and hair styles. There is nothing stopping modders from doing the same for other races, of course! For example, the system could easily be used for other things, like an insect race where you have a multi tiered system, with one appearance for the ruler, a completely different morphology for your Pops, and a third for your leader characters..."
I guess this means that clothing-free species (e.g. the Blorg) might end without many different portraits?
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 24, 2016, 09:44:13 pm
Don't have a citation for this one, alas, but as I understand it we (humans, that is) have gotten very good at freshwater aquaculture but not so much saltwater aquaculture. So hypothetical dolphins could be a gain in that regard. But there's a lot we don't know about the nutrient-exploitable potential of the ocean compared to land, so it's hard to say given an equivalent level of technology a ocean-borne species could harvest the ocean as efficiently as humans can the land (maybe more, maybe less).
On the other other hand, if we had sentient dolphins with population levels similar to the number of humans currently on the earth I suspect it would be quite difficult supplying enough raw nutrition, let alone meat.
Yeah, it's a question for sure. But ocean needs to be much, much less efficient than land to lose. The sheer scale of the ocean is a huge point in its favor. Since we really use very little of it for our current fishing, mining, and drilling operations, anything they could use would be great.
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(On the other other other hand, if we had hyperdrive-era power sources we could probably find a way around a lot of these problems through application of massive amounts of energy.)
Well, that's the real issue with believe-ability for me. If you can build a thing to fly people between planets with ease, you can probably build a thing for people to live in space with ease. At that point fighting over planets is ludicrous. "multiculturalism" is pretty far down the list.
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But none of this really gets into the behavioral question - could they get along, assuming it's in their interest to do so? Given my experience with human nature it seems like the potentially-rational choice of cooperation might not be very likely, and who can say what sentient dolphin culture would be like.
Much human conflict comes down to primate dominance dynamics. The question isn't "could they get along" but rather why would they fight? Conflict is a resource investment that needs to pay off. There's no reason to fight if there's nothing to gain. In humans there is always something to gain because everyone can use everyone else's resources and mate with everyone else's mates. Interspecies, not so much. But there's nothing we'd need from dolphins (or sentient arctic seals, or sentient subterranean creatures, etc) that isn't purely an economic thing. At that point there isn't much contact and it's just cheaper to trade.
Post by: sambojin on March 24, 2016, 09:47:38 pm
"I pity the fool that sautées my brothers!"
Post by: Dostoevsky on March 24, 2016, 11:56:48 pm
Much human conflict comes down to primate dominance dynamics. The question isn't "could they get along" but rather why would they fight? Conflict is a resource investment that needs to pay off. There's no reason to fight if there's nothing to gain. In humans there is always something to gain because everyone can use everyone else's resources and mate with everyone else's mates. Interspecies, not so much. But there's nothing we'd need from dolphins (or sentient arctic seals, or sentient subterranean creatures, etc) that isn't purely an economic thing. At that point there isn't much contact and it's just cheaper to trade.
Personally, I've seen enough wholly irrational maliciousness/fear/etc. to make me less sanguine than you on this issue. Even if there's nothing to gain (or indeed everything to lose) from hostility, hostility could end up being our collective response anyways. I'd be happy to be wrong on that point, certainly.
At least the portraits totally confirms the ability to have a mushroom with a mohawk and some bling.
"I pity the fool that sautées my brothers!"
Some of those mushroom folk are awfully, er, wobbly in their animations. Would make modding mohawks and the like more tricky, I imagine, but there's probably some passionate artist out there eager to make an "Immersive Mushroom Mohawks" mod.
Actually, are the 'lesser leaders' animated the same way the head honchos are? Not sure I've noticed in the videos thus far.
Post by: Cruxador on March 25, 2016, 12:54:37 am
Just watched today's stream, and the game looks pretty good, though perhaps unremarkable to a certain extent. Well, it's the standard 4X fare plus some known Paradox mechanics. I'm sure they'll expand Stellaris considerably with a seemingly endless parade of DLC, but the base game may not be particularly stellar, if you'll pardon the pun.That seems remarkable enough to me.
Quote
One thing which somewhat concerned me is the race portraits. They look great, and there's a lot of variety when it comes to race generation. However, there's a single portrait per race, apparently, and you see the same guy in every pop, character and officer. I realize it might seem unfeasible to ask for portrait subdivision (a la MoO2), but it looks quite repetitive as it is. I'm almost sure, however, that they're aware of this, and that their solution will be a procession of paid portrait packs, if CK2 is any indication.There's supposed to be ethnic variation, but yeah, it hasn't really been in evidence in anything I've seen either.
Post by: motorbitch on March 25, 2016, 01:06:11 am
if its unremarkable and farms some of the easy mmo clone moneys, its proably enough.
Post by: Orange Wizard on March 25, 2016, 01:58:47 am
I think we've been spoiled by other Paradox games.Just watched today's stream, and the game looks pretty good, though perhaps unremarkable to a certain extent. Well, it's the standard 4X fare plus some known Paradox mechanics. I'm sure they'll expand Stellaris considerably with a seemingly endless parade of DLC, but the base game may not be particularly stellar, if you'll pardon the pun.That seems remarkable enough to me.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on March 25, 2016, 03:38:15 am
Post by: sambojin on March 25, 2016, 05:59:57 am
You didn't read this thread at all, did you?
Post by: Malus on March 25, 2016, 06:09:27 am
Yeah, I don't know -- Stellaris might be a little shallow at launch compared to their other titles... but compared to 99% of the other 4X games out there, it'll surpass them, I think. It's certainly deeper than GalCiv 3, Endless Space, Star Drive 1/2, the MoO reboot, etc. Probably not quite as deep as Distant Worlds, yet. Needs a few more systems (like properly simulated trade/supply lines and espionage). But the galaxy map doesn't look like someone heaved skittles onto a black canvasboard and connected them with dashed lines, so it's much prettier than Distant Worlds.I think we've been spoiled by other Paradox games.Just watched today's stream, and the game looks pretty good, though perhaps unremarkable to a certain extent. Well, it's the standard 4X fare plus some known Paradox mechanics. I'm sure they'll expand Stellaris considerably with a seemingly endless parade of DLC, but the base game may not be particularly stellar, if you'll pardon the pun.That seems remarkable enough to me.
The factions/pop system is what really sets it apart, so I'm interested in how far it can carry the game.
Post by: Retropunch on March 25, 2016, 06:59:18 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on March 25, 2016, 07:20:02 am
Post by: Teneb on March 25, 2016, 08:10:04 am
I dunno, seems like we're looking at EU meets Vicky IN SPAAAAAAACE. Minus a bunch of important mechanics, some of which will be drip-fed via DLC.Yeah it, looks a lot like Vicky in SPEHSS, minus detailed simulation of trade goods.
Post by: Ludorum Rex on March 25, 2016, 09:31:56 am
Post by: Greenbane on March 25, 2016, 12:13:03 pm
Or at least they showed none of that during the last stream.
Post by: Lukeinator on March 25, 2016, 12:31:00 pm
How is this Vicky in space? The "pops" are no more complex than citizens in Civilization. They're just units of population working a given planet tile: there's no pop types, political alignment, militancy, needs, etc.The pops do have races and have ethics. Also some may become subspecies.
Or at least they showed none of that during the last stream.
Post by: RadtheCad on March 25, 2016, 12:41:28 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on March 25, 2016, 12:49:36 pm
Post by: RadtheCad on March 25, 2016, 12:53:07 pm
Post by: jocan2003 on March 25, 2016, 02:31:22 pm
Post by: Descan on March 25, 2016, 03:25:44 pm
Post by: Rakonas on March 26, 2016, 11:21:34 pm
They're just units of population working a given planet tile: there's no pop types, political alignment, militancy, needs, etc.
Pop Types: Slaves, Free, Robots, Transhuman
Political Alignment: Ethos varies by pop, has significant effects on what the pop does
Militancy: Pops do have this, and they will join factions (rebel movements)
Needs: Obviously not as deep as Vic 2, but they need food and such.
Post by: Cruxador on March 27, 2016, 01:17:55 am
Transhuman things aren't much different from other species, I think, and robots are more or less just a special category of species.They're just units of population working a given planet tile: there's no pop types, political alignment, militancy, needs, etc.
Pop Types: Slaves, Free, Robots, Transhuman
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Needs: Obviously not as deep as Vic 2, but they need food and such.What's the "and such"? Aside from robots needing energy (somehow, despite other pops being able to live their entire complicated biological lives without needing any) I can't think of anything else.
Post by: Malus on March 27, 2016, 01:36:07 am
Post by: Descan on March 27, 2016, 02:00:56 pm
Aside from that, they're a food-based number that grows and harvests/works on a specific tile. Same as in Civ.
Post by: Teneb on March 27, 2016, 02:39:54 pm
I thought that one dev diary said that pops can have their own ethos, and if their ethos diverges too much they can start becoming rebellious?Yeah. They also said that aliens and citizens with different ethos will move towards your borders.
Post by: Malus on March 27, 2016, 02:41:13 pm
The pops themselves aren't that much more complicated. About the biggest differences I can see is that each pop is an actual person who may be an alien or a slave or a rebel. That and there's an in-built method to move pops between colonies (I think you still can in Civ it's just non-obvious and kind of janky)In Civ, pops are literally just a number that grows based on food and harvests/works on a specific tile. That's it. Pops from one civ are identical to pops from another civ. There are no traits. They don't have happiness. They don't rebel individually. You can't purge/enslave pops in Civ (not that you'd want to, because they're all the same). Soldiers aren't recruited from pops, because "pops", as an abstract game concept, simply do not exist in Civ.
Aside from that, they're a food-based number that grows and harvests/works on a specific tile. Same as in Civ.
You can argue that the pops in Stellaris "aren't that much more complicated" but you're wrong. Pops in Stellaris have many interlocking systems developed around them, while pops in Civ have nothing. Pops in Stellaris genetically modify themselves to suit their environment better. They have an ideology, they join factions, their happiness is tracked, they migrate by themselves to worlds with more similar ethoses, they can be purged or enslaved, they have traits. It's not as deep as Victoria 2, but calling it not much more complicated than Civ 5 is the most ridiculous hyperbole I've heard today and really downplays the entire system.
Consider this: in Civ 5, pops aren't even tracked by the game because, for all intents and purposes, they don't exist. Population is kept track of per city. It is an integer that goes up or down, depending on growth or starvation. Every single "pop" for each city in Civ can be tracked with a single integer. They are fundamentally, intrinsically linked to cities. They're more like a city's "level" than anything resembling a population of people. A city could have 2 pops or 20 pops and all that changes is one number.
In Stellaris, pops are a core game mechanic that can be modded and extended. They possess a species, traits, faction, ideology, and happiness. This means somewhere in memory, the computer's storing at least these five variables per pop. In terms of complexity, this is vastly beyond Civ's "one variable per city". Consider that Stellaris can have 1000+ star systems. Assuming a conservative 0.5 habitable worlds per system, and 10 pops per world, Stellaris would track 5000 individual pops. This isn't even taking into account the additional game logic to allow for pop behavior/decision-making, which is obviously executed per pop.
I understand people are annoyed that Stellaris pops aren't tracked Vicky 2-style, but there's a huge continuum between Victoria 2 and Civilization. Stellaris is much, much closer to the Victoria 2 side than the Civilization side.
Post by: Greenbane on March 27, 2016, 03:03:09 pm
As for Civ citizens, no matter how they're calculated, they do have happiness (even if it's binary) and can be unhappy, and they can have specialized jobs outside tile-working (that's actually something I don't think Stellaris pops have). And you can work them to death to rush production in certain circumstances.
Do Stellaris pops really have traits, or is that just the officers? Do they actually rebel individually? I thought that kind of thing happend on a per-faction basis. Can they really move freely, wherever they want? I imagine that'd be quite chaotic from the player perspective, when you want to keep a certain amount of people in a given planet for it to function properly, but your population's uncontrollably all over the place. Is their happiness truly independent if their ethos isn't particularly at odds with the government's (i.e. they're not joining any factions)? In practice, just how much independence do they actually have?
I'd genuinely appreciate a link to a dev diary covering these matters in some form.
Post by: Descan on March 27, 2016, 04:06:27 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on March 27, 2016, 06:13:26 pm
Post by: Cruxador on March 27, 2016, 08:00:39 pm
Do Stellaris pops really have traits, or is that just the officers? Do they actually rebel individually? I thought that kind of thing happend on a per-faction basis. Can they really move freely, wherever they want? I imagine that'd be quite chaotic from the player perspective, when you want to keep a certain amount of people in a given planet for it to function properly, but your population's uncontrollably all over the place. Is their happiness truly independent if their ethos isn't particularly at odds with the government's (i.e. they're not joining any factions)? In practice, just how much independence do they actually have?Just officers (and other characters) have traits. Their freedom of movement depends on your policies, but they potentially can move freely if your laws allow it. They don't just flit about wantonly though. You shouldn't have manpower problems on a planet unless things go drastically wrong. From what little we've seen, it seems way more forgiving than Vicky2 in this regard. I don't know what you mean by independent happiness. It's dependent on a lot of factors. Each one has their own separate happiness though, if that's what you mean. They don't do much action on a scale beyond themselves and the map tile they're in independently of factions, if they do any at all.
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I'd genuinely appreciate a link to a dev diary covering these matters in some form.Paradox doesn't seem to see much need for dev diaries about stuff that's this directly adapted from their earlier games. I'm not sure they anticipated catching the attention of as many 4x fans as they have.
Post by: Orange Wizard on March 27, 2016, 08:22:28 pm
I'm not sure they anticipated catching the attention of as many 4x fans as they have.It's not too surprising since they took a step away from their usual asymmetric historical setup. In their other games, countries are objectively stronger or weaker than others from the beginning. But Stellaris starts off with everyone on the same footing, which is much more in line with a traditional 4x than Paradox grand strategy.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on March 27, 2016, 08:46:00 pm
Though then there's the option to buff several random AI empires to create more powerful nations for when the exploration/expasion game gives way to the grand strategy.I'm not sure they anticipated catching the attention of as many 4x fans as they have.It's not too surprising since they took a step away from their usual asymmetric historical setup. In their other games, countries are objectively stronger or weaker than others from the beginning. But Stellaris starts off with everyone on the same footing, which is much more in line with a traditional 4x than Paradox grand strategy.
I must say I'm rather intrigued by the setup of having a 4X game core as a setup for a grand strategy game. Both creates emergent empires in almost literally empty space, and gives both the 4X and the grand strategy genres a nice spin off each other. Could be fun to play. (Assuming I can even run it, heh.)
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 27, 2016, 09:44:33 pm
Do Stellaris pops really have traits, or is that just the officers? Do they actually rebel individually? I thought that kind of thing happend on a per-faction basis.
I'll look about for it but no, pops aren't that simple. Pops have the traits of their races, with variations. Pops of the same species living in different environments will diverge over time and become different pops of different (sub)species. There's also the possibility for sentient robot pops from technology or something. Pops of the same race can belong to different factions as well - on the stream there were some radical pacifist separatists who rioted, and wanted their own state. That's on a per-pop basis, I think?
It's not quite Vicky 2 in space, no, since we don't have as much of the economic side of things. But it's certainly more complicated than Civ citizens. (Specialist jobs in Civ are really just a kind of tile.) And it's certainly much more complicated than MoO2 pops, still.
Post by: Biowraith on March 28, 2016, 02:43:31 am
We've not seen traits changing yet, but in a number of places the devs have mentioned that you'll be able to use genetic manipulation tech to add (possibly remove?) traits from a pop/race and as mentioned by others, pops might decide to genetically manipulate themselves to better suit their environment (presumably that just means changing from e.g. Tropical preference to e.g. Arid preference) and while they're at it might decide to make other changes and potentially end up declaring themselves a separate species.
Post by: umiman on March 28, 2016, 02:29:52 pm
If you're interested, I put my impressions in the spoiler.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
There's also this mod:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: gimli on March 28, 2016, 03:29:35 pm
"Next entry will be an interesting one when the Project Lead speaks about Stellaris."
Post by: Majestic7 on March 28, 2016, 03:38:48 pm
Post by: Retropunch on March 28, 2016, 03:48:05 pm
I've been playing Polaris Sector to pass the time till Stellaris.
I followed it on this forum (under it's old name) and it looks really good - a shame it hasn't got more coverage, but I'll definitely get it at some point. Unfortunately the price point is just too high at the moment for me to justify it - especially as it is definitely 100% indie in production values.
Post by: Persus13 on March 28, 2016, 04:12:28 pm
Also, the synth beat in the second track is too loud, and makes me feel like I'm in some sort of club instead of doing grand exploration.
Post by: umiman on March 28, 2016, 04:14:37 pm
Yeah. It's actually very similar to Distant Space actually in terms of production, except Distant Space has way better automation. The combat is way more fun in Polaris though.I've been playing Polaris Sector to pass the time till Stellaris.
I followed it on this forum (under it's old name) and it looks really good - a shame it hasn't got more coverage, but I'll definitely get it at some point. Unfortunately the price point is just too high at the moment for me to justify it - especially as it is definitely 100% indie in production values.
If I were to rank recent Space 4X's, it'd be...
1. Sword of the Stars
2. Distant Worlds
3. Polaris
4. Star Ruler 2
5. Master of Orion (The new one)
Edit: Wait fuck that. Aurora is number 1.
Post by: Glloyd on March 28, 2016, 04:44:22 pm
If I were to rank recent Space 4X's, it'd be...
1. Sword of the Stars
2. Distant Worlds
3. Polaris
4. Star Ruler 2
5. Master of Orion (The new one)
Edit: Wait fuck that. Aurora is number 1.
I really want to get into Aurora, but I can never seem to find the time and figure out how to play it well enough to enjoy it. It's just so obtuse, even compared to DF and SS13, two of my favourite games.
Post by: Orange Wizard on March 28, 2016, 04:49:21 pm
Well...not the most interesting DD, but it is worth a read: Stellaris Dev Diary #27 - Music & Sound (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-27-music-sound.916337)That was underwhelming.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 28, 2016, 04:54:05 pm
Post by: Greenbane on March 28, 2016, 05:25:48 pm
I really want to get into Aurora, but I can never seem to find the time and figure out how to play it well enough to enjoy it. It's just so obtuse, even compared to DF and SS13, two of my favourite games.
Aurora is really in need of an overhaul (Where's Aurora II?). I really enjoyed it a good while ago, around version 5.42, but the game just crumbles under its own weight within 100 game years due to the way it's coded. It's essentially a bunch of VisualBasic (I think?) code duct-taped to a Microsoft Access database. I believe the new versions keep adding features, but the structural foundations of the game are still just a rickety bunch of sticks tied together, and that can't be fixed without redoing everything in a new, better-suited environment.
Post by: Culise on March 28, 2016, 06:13:56 pm
Music's alright, but could be better. I realize it's hard to compose sci-fi instrumental of the "epic" variety, but considering Waldetoft's record (EU4's music is awesome), he shouldn't be afraid of trying.Like C# (http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?board=234.0)? ^_^I really want to get into Aurora, but I can never seem to find the time and figure out how to play it well enough to enjoy it. It's just so obtuse, even compared to DF and SS13, two of my favourite games.
Aurora is really in need of an overhaul (Where's Aurora II?). I really enjoyed it a good while ago, around version 5.42, but the game just crumbles under its own weight within 100 game years due to the way it's coded. It's essentially a bunch of VisualBasic (I think?) code duct-taped to a Microsoft Access database. I believe the new versions keep adding features, but the structural foundations of the game are still just a rickety bunch of sticks tied together, and that can't be fixed without redoing everything in a new, better-suited environment.
((Honestly, just the revamped class design window is enough to make me wish for its release. Color choices could be chosen much better for legibility, though.))
Post by: Greenbane on March 28, 2016, 06:33:13 pm
Like C# (http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?board=234.0)? ^_^
((Honestly, just the revamped class design window is enough to make me wish for its release. Color choices could be chosen much better for legibility, though.))
Yeah, found that checking out the Aurora forums just after posting here. If it stabilizes and optimizes the game's running, it'll be a godsend.
Well, it's still taped to the Access database, which contains 90% of the game, so time will tell just how much of an improvement it would be.
Post by: Retropunch on March 29, 2016, 04:38:32 pm
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?board=234.0]C#[/url]? ^_^OH MY GAWWWD!!!!! It's finally happened!!!!!! I thought the day would never, ever come.
Aurora is one of my absolute all time favorite things which I also really hate. I just can't deal with playing a game I know will collapse after a certain amount of time, no matter what I do. Even with the most careful play, it just ends up folding after a few hundred years unless you sort of basically cheat. It's also infuriatingly clunky - even when you've gotten to grips with it.
I literally could not be more excited.
Post by: umiman on March 29, 2016, 04:42:18 pm
Awesome!http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?board=234.0]C#[/url]? ^_^OH MY GAWWWD!!!!! It's finally happened!!!!!! I thought the day would never, ever come.
Aurora is one of my absolute all time favorite things which I also really hate. I just can't deal with playing a game I know will collapse after a certain amount of time, no matter what I do. Even with the most careful play, it just ends up folding after a few hundred years unless you sort of basically cheat. It's also infuriatingly clunky - even when you've gotten to grips with it.
I literally could not be more excited.
Post by: Knave on March 29, 2016, 04:51:38 pm
My $X standby is Usually a Human science-based, peaceful sort, but seeing the Blorg playthrough really have me itching for a fungus start. Emphasis on the FUN.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on March 29, 2016, 05:22:06 pm
Post by: Glloyd on March 29, 2016, 05:30:11 pm
Post by: Xgamer4 on March 29, 2016, 05:38:59 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on March 29, 2016, 05:56:39 pm
I'm thinking I'll take ether enduring and intelligent to represent the super royal ants that lead the society, or venerable for the same effect. Negatives with decadent being possible if I go for the collective choice, Slow breeders to represent that although they breed drones quickly, actually breeding queens to increase population is a slow process, and sedentary because ants don't like leaving the hive yo! Also possibly Solitary in the individualist choice, to represent that queens don't naturally work together, and this new unified space empire thing is something that's a bit uncomfortable.
Post by: RadtheCad on March 29, 2016, 06:17:20 pm
And then we'll take THEM apart, and turn THEM into robots, too.
Post by: majikero on March 29, 2016, 06:23:01 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 29, 2016, 06:38:55 pm
Be our friends, and all will be well as long as you are okay with getting no credit when we do stuff together. Get in the way and... gib clay.
Post by: Malus on March 29, 2016, 07:19:21 pm
Post by: umiman on March 29, 2016, 08:33:16 pm
Now that's how you preview a game. I'd like to think Paradox saw the other Youtuber's garbage preview and went "no one is going to understand anything from that... we better do our own."
Post by: Greenbane on March 29, 2016, 08:57:25 pm
First thing I'll do is try to figure out how to mod in new empire logos if there's no suitable one derived from a four-point star.
I'm constantly redoing the logo. Right now it's something like this, but I'm unconvinced:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: JumpingJack on March 29, 2016, 11:35:33 pm
I'm constantly redoing the logo. Right now it's something like this, but I'm unconvinced:Reminds me a bit of the European Union's thingy. Impressive art skills, bro.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
As for me, I'll probably go with either a human Military Republic (not sure which ethos yet) or something a bit different ruled by the penguin-looking people. Divine Mandate of Antarctica anyone?
Post by: Orange Wizard on March 30, 2016, 12:41:26 am
Post by: Biowraith on March 30, 2016, 12:46:47 am
I dunno.
Post by: Majestic7 on March 30, 2016, 12:49:46 am
I hope in the future species ethos can change dramatically due to traumatic events, like a first contact war where they are beaten bloody turning xenophiles into xenophobes.
Post by: Cruxador on March 30, 2016, 01:20:38 am
Post by: Majestic7 on March 30, 2016, 01:25:54 am
Post by: umiman on March 30, 2016, 02:08:21 am
That could be your propaganda poster. "Become a slave of the Evangelical Mushroom Union today! *It is going to be great!* -Most Holy Leader."Make. Space. Great. Again.
Post by: Majestic7 on March 30, 2016, 02:12:53 am
Post by: RadtheCad on March 30, 2016, 04:01:49 am
I don't think you can start as robots. You could trigger the robot rebellion though with too much AI research.
That's what mods are for.
Post by: Majestic7 on March 30, 2016, 04:23:41 am
Post by: JumpingJack on March 30, 2016, 04:38:21 am
I suppose modding robots would be somewhat easy by simply replacing the need for food with the need for energy and minerals. However, considering it would be logical to give them great range of comfortable environments, I presume they'd be somewhat OP.
More than likely. If going for a balanced approach, they'd need to have some substantial weaknesses. Turning them into glass cannons would provoke the need for some interesting strategies.
As for me, the scant few times I've messed around with adding artificial races to a game such as this, I tend to arbitrarily limit them to worlds that are barren or nearly so.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on March 30, 2016, 04:43:17 am
full materialism and science!
xeno relation policy - complete eradication
giant warships and legions of genetically ehnaced power armoured super soldiers and putting all of this under command of general named Horus, nothing can go wrong here.
Post by: Majestic7 on March 30, 2016, 04:52:39 am
I think the usual "horrible diplomacy penalties" way of balancing a powerful species is not a balance choice at all, since warmonger players don't do diplomacy anyway.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 30, 2016, 10:09:37 am
I suppose modding robots would be somewhat easy by simply replacing the need for food with the need for energy and minerals. However, considering it would be logical to give them great range of comfortable environments, I presume they'd be somewhat OP.
I mean, the game already has robots. It's just a matter of modding them in earlier rather than as a late-game threat analogous to the Revolution or Communism.
Post by: Greenbane on March 30, 2016, 01:25:57 pm
I see "Robotic" as a very costly trait which changes the food need to energy/minerals, as suggested. Possibly also granting immunity to hostile environments while capping happiness at, say, 50%. But that might be best reserved for other traits: the core part is the change in food need. The rest, well, artificial life can evolve to be almost indistinguishable from organics.
Post by: RadtheCad on March 30, 2016, 01:55:53 pm
Obviously this stuff would be modular pluses and minuses in the species creation menu, so you could have e.g. a group of biologicals who've been frozen on an asteroid for centuries. Maybe a slower-than light fungal spore?
Post by: Aklyon on March 30, 2016, 02:00:04 pm
If you really wanted to balance this kind of stuff, you could extend the research system to include mechanical replacements for biological functions and start robots off without them, say you start as one pop of solar-powered mining bots on a rogue asteroid with a small factory that's fallen into orbit around a star after drifting for centuries, so you have to bootstrap everything and your physical 'bodies' are pretty shit in terms of independence and self-repair compared to biological life until you research nanotech, von Neumann-ism, etc. It would also be interesting if you were a rogue AI without the ability to extend your consciousness until you circumvent inbuilt restrictions on it, meaning research would be a bottleneck at first, ironically.I like this as a challenge mode.
Post by: gimli on March 30, 2016, 02:34:45 pm
I'm going for a fanatically spiritualist xenophobe nation, with a divine mandate and lots of foreign slaves. It's gonna be great.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
That being said, I am going to test the fanatic militarist/materialist & fanatic materialist/militarist combinations in the first 2 games. I don't really care about the race tbh, buuuuuut
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: RadtheCad on March 30, 2016, 02:41:35 pm
I like this as a challenge mode.
If race creation is a point-based system (it is, right?), it could be an option to be modded in. It would be fun to try and make the objectively worst race- fanatic pacifists with shit diplomacy, incompetent genocidal maniacs...
Post by: Orange Wizard on March 30, 2016, 05:25:13 pm
If race creation is a point-based system (it is, right?), it could be an option to be modded in. It would be fun to try and make the objectively worst race- fanatic pacifists with shit diplomacy, incompetent genocidal maniacs...That sounds pretty fun from an RP standpoint
Post by: Teneb on March 30, 2016, 05:47:02 pm
So... the Blorg from the streams, swapping militaristic for pacifistic?If race creation is a point-based system (it is, right?), it could be an option to be modded in. It would be fun to try and make the objectively worst race- fanatic pacifists with shit diplomacy, incompetent genocidal maniacs...That sounds pretty fun from an RP standpoint
The whole point behind that race, as the devs explained, is for them to make that really annoying person everyone has met once in their lives that insists on sticking around.
Post by: RadtheCad on March 30, 2016, 08:56:28 pm
Well, that just more shit. I mean, the blorg look like they can still function. There has to be a way they can be made worse.So... the Blorg from the streams, swapping militaristic for pacifistic?If race creation is a point-based system (it is, right?), it could be an option to be modded in. It would be fun to try and make the objectively worst race- fanatic pacifists with shit diplomacy, incompetent genocidal maniacs...That sounds pretty fun from an RP standpoint
The whole point behind that race, as the devs explained, is for them to make that really annoying person everyone has met once in their lives that insists on sticking around.
Post by: umiman on March 30, 2016, 11:51:02 pm
Well, they could be extremely pacifist and have one of the smallest brain sizes among any species in the entire universe, so small that they are regularly outwitted by crows and cats. Also they could be ginormous and require huge amounts of energy to function, but only eat a diet of a very specific plant, of which they will only eat one single species of that plant which is also going extinct in the wild. And just for kicks we could make that plant have the energy density of almost nothing AND we could make it so that this creature can't properly digest this plant due to the lack of the proper enzymes and stomachs, so even they have to eat way more of the already massive amount than they need.Well, that just more shit. I mean, the blorg look like they can still function. There has to be a way they can be made worse.So... the Blorg from the streams, swapping militaristic for pacifistic?If race creation is a point-based system (it is, right?), it could be an option to be modded in. It would be fun to try and make the objectively worst race- fanatic pacifists with shit diplomacy, incompetent genocidal maniacs...That sounds pretty fun from an RP standpoint
The whole point behind that race, as the devs explained, is for them to make that really annoying person everyone has met once in their lives that insists on sticking around.
Hmm... I mean, that sounds pretty bad already, but I guess we could also make it so they're incredibly lazy to the point where they even actually don't want to mate with one another. And even if they did, they wouldn't even know how to do it. So they have to resort to a third party to artifically inseminate them for their continued survival. Not only that, after this ridiculous process, they make such terrible, awful parents that these same third party species have to actually, literally kidnap their babies from them just to keep them alive because left alone, the babies are likely to be crushed to death by their own mother or simply just die due to an absurd 40% infant mortality rate.
Wow, that sounds pretty shitty. How on earth can you make that worse?
Hmm...
I guess we could make them so brightly coloured they have no chance of camouflage whatsoever. Maybe... black and white? That seems kinda stretching it though. I mean, haha! If we're going to go that far in making fun of this fictional creature, we might as well give it an incredibly small penis (3cm)!!!!
Oh man, I can't imagine what kind of evil asshole would create such a stupid creature.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on March 31, 2016, 01:08:22 am
Oh man, I can't imagine what kind of evil asshole would create such a stupid creature.(http://i.imgur.com/oMGnNhC.jpg)
Post by: Cruxador on March 31, 2016, 02:48:23 am
Post by: Egan_BW on March 31, 2016, 03:11:41 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on March 31, 2016, 04:00:48 am
Post by: Ghazkull on March 31, 2016, 04:43:53 am
Post by: Culise on March 31, 2016, 07:46:56 am
Post by: RadtheCad on March 31, 2016, 09:46:56 am
HFY territory... :PDon't worry, I'll shut it down by talking about how much better robots are! Just give me a minute to write the essay...
Post by: RadtheCad on March 31, 2016, 11:15:07 am
Post by: Majestic7 on March 31, 2016, 11:58:20 am
Post by: Shadowlord on March 31, 2016, 12:45:05 pm
Quote
Sign In To Play And Unlock Free Stellaris Rewards!
With Stellaris announced for release on May 9, weve prepared a little something to help get people in the mood for Paradoxs newest grand strategy game.
Head on over to launchpad.stellarisgame.com and fly your spaceship through the vast emptiness of space. The longer you go, the more treasures you unlock! And, if you recommend 10 friends to play the game, you get the chance to name one of the commanders that players might encounter in Stellaris!
As you collect space debris in this game, you can enter a competition for a chance to win a graphics card and a gaming mouse for your PC! Well announce the winner when pre-orders for Stellaris open. Put on your space suit and travel with us to the bold future of Stellaris!
It seems to be a clicker game, except that clicking doesn't seem to DO anything except make a number of clicks counter go up.
Post by: umiman on March 31, 2016, 12:47:05 pm
and if we take together all human cultures we basically eat everything...i mean bird nest soup? made of the nest and not the eggs?I know everyone is joking around and all that, but bird's nest soup is composed of the saliva of the swallow. It's not twigs or branches or plastic bags or stuff like that.
All things considered. If you were an alien species looking from the outside. I'd think there wouldn't be much of a difference between someone eating the unborn offspring of another species versus eating their saliva. Actually, I'd kinda assume the previous one was worse.
Post by: BFEL on March 31, 2016, 12:52:55 pm
My favorite is hyenas though, where the female has the penis. Well, not exactly a penis but a female....thing that looks a lot like a penis.Thanks Corruption of Champions. Thank you for teaching us all the things about "things"
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on March 31, 2016, 12:59:28 pm
(http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/nurse-joker-says-hi.gif)My favorite is hyenas though, where the female has the penis. Well, not exactly a penis but a female....thing that looks a lot like a penis.Thanks Corruption of Champions. Thank you for teaching us all the things about "things"
Whenever someone mentions CoC
Post by: Shadowlord on March 31, 2016, 01:00:03 pm
You're also murdering countless single-celled bacteria when you eat vegetables, I'm sure. If you're going to be upset about single cells that have half the dna of a real organism and cannot develop into anything, you should probably be more upset about fully functional single-celled organisms that can actually reproduce. ;)
Post by: umiman on March 31, 2016, 01:01:19 pm
Hey, eating eggs isn't eating the unborn offspring of another species, it's eating the food that nature prepared for a potential embryo to consume while developing into a chick. Along with, generally, one egg cell which isn't fertilized and only has half the dna needed to be a viable organism (because that's how sexual reproduction works).I think the silicone aliens that subsist only on the farts of bacteria would be very upset at our dietary habits.
You're also murdering countless single-celled bacteria when you eat vegetables, I'm sure. If you're going to be upset about single cells that have half the dna of a real organism and cannot develop into anything, you should probably be more upset about fully functional single-celled organisms that can actually reproduce. ;)
Post by: Teneb on March 31, 2016, 01:02:07 pm
Fart aliens are not real people.Hey, eating eggs isn't eating the unborn offspring of another species, it's eating the food that nature prepared for a potential embryo to consume while developing into a chick. Along with, generally, one egg cell which isn't fertilized and only has half the dna needed to be a viable organism (because that's how sexual reproduction works).I think the silicone aliens that subsist only on the farts of bacteria would be very upset at our dietary habits.
You're also murdering countless single-celled bacteria when you eat vegetables, I'm sure. If you're going to be upset about single cells that have half the dna of a real organism and cannot develop into anything, you should probably be more upset about fully functional single-celled organisms that can actually reproduce. ;)
Post by: Descan on March 31, 2016, 01:03:43 pm
Post by: Culise on March 31, 2016, 01:11:43 pm
Hey, eating eggs isn't eating the unborn offspring of another species, it's eating the food that nature prepared for a potential embryo to consume while developing into a chick.Indeed. Technically, it'd be closer to eating their menstruation.
((I wonder sometimes if we could convince Paradox to release more information just by telling them what kind of topics we get up to in an absence of data.))
Post by: Greenbane on March 31, 2016, 01:23:52 pm
((I wonder sometimes if we could convince Paradox to release more information just by telling them what kind of topics we get up to in an absence of data.))
I'm still not quite sure how the topic mutated from sapient robots to the consumption of menses.
Post by: umiman on March 31, 2016, 01:46:31 pm
This makes me happy. I like it when the playing field is all over the place. It doesn't make sense for everyone to be at the same level in a space 4x.
Post by: Greenbane on March 31, 2016, 02:26:21 pm
I noticed that they included the option to have more advanced species start alongside you (I'm assuming these are different from the dying empires). And since we saw that there are also species that can organically form after you, it means more uneven gameplay.
This makes me happy. I like it when the playing field is all over the place. It doesn't make sense for everyone to be at the same level in a space 4x.
Yeah, on the one hand you can set the game to favour certain species. Something like the favoured nations in EU.
On the other, as the second part of the Blorg stream shows, there's pre-space aliens seeded across the galaxy, presumably in different stages of technological development, and they can eventually enter the galactic stage. In the stream, there was this Early Space Age species which the presenters encountered, and it almost immediately made the leap to spacefaring race.
That's great, and I'm assuming/hoping for the aforementioned different stages of development. You may have this Early Space Age species whose space leap is imminent, others in an Industrial Age 200-300 years away from it, and perhaps even some Pre-Industrial/Primitive ones which might be anything from 500 to thousands of years away. All theoretically within the scope of a single game, given time and, perhaps, foreign intervention! Ultimately and ideally, Primitive species could also randomly crop up on planets where there was previously no sapient life at all.
Post by: Majestic7 on March 31, 2016, 02:51:39 pm
I could even see xenophobic species knocking down subject species a few levels of technology to give them more time and space to reconstruct them into a perfect slave species.
Post by: Greenbane on March 31, 2016, 03:24:51 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on March 31, 2016, 04:23:54 pm
Post by: Descan on March 31, 2016, 04:56:38 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 31, 2016, 05:18:47 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on March 31, 2016, 05:27:29 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 31, 2016, 05:29:00 pm
Well, if you don't mind fucking up the biosphere, bombarding the planet clean and colonizing it afterwards isn't that difficult. All you need is a few rocks nudged in the right direction, like the Siriusian Overlords did to the T-Rex Empire.Which is a shame, since the Raptor Resistance was close to overthrowing their Tyrannical overlords.
Post by: RadtheCad on March 31, 2016, 06:33:17 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on March 31, 2016, 07:27:32 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 31, 2016, 07:49:27 pm
That wouldn't have mattered anyway, the T-rex monarchy were just figureheads for the secret lizard people cabal. They were the ones who were really in control.Lizard people manipulating lizard people? All my life has been a lie!
/me adjusts lizard mask
Post by: Cruxador on March 31, 2016, 08:10:01 pm
Actually the lowest level of development for encountered alien life is pre-sapient lifeforms that have the potential to become sapient. Like running across some ancient apes in the case of humans. Those can then be tampered with for Fun! results.Well, the lowest that is specifically represented as a life form, we've seen tile blockers that consist of general dangerous wildlife, and forests, and a specific case of migratory trees.
One thing I would like is to have a game where every planet has some sort of species on it, except for barren/uninhabitable planets. So you can't colonize anything except the barren planets (can you terraform barren planets or is it just to turn a bad-for-you planet into a good-for-you planet?), and need to expand via vassalization/annexation/manipulation of these worlds. So you end up with sort of Federation-style Empire, or the Combine.You can colonize worlds with other species on them, apparently. They made reference to reservations in the stream.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 31, 2016, 08:30:07 pm
Well it's not like the T-rex could manipulate anything substantial, with those stubby arms. The lizards were the power behind the scenes, doing all the work.That wouldn't have mattered anyway, the T-rex monarchy were just figureheads for the secret lizard people cabal. They were the ones who were really in control.Lizard people manipulating lizard people? All my life has been a lie!
/me adjusts lizard mask
Post by: Karlito on April 01, 2016, 01:06:08 am
I hope this stuff models for orbits. I WANT CYCLIC BASED GALACTIC SWARM MIGRATION
Nothing in the game orbits, though planets do have an animation where they rotate on their axis.
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 01, 2016, 01:18:18 am
Nothing in the game orbits, though planets do have an animation where they rotate on their axis.Which is... fair enough, I guess. Orbits would be cool, but it's mostly a flavour thing given the time scale.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 01, 2016, 01:19:02 am
Get on that Paradox
Post by: lordcooper on April 01, 2016, 02:20:53 am
More Blorg!
Post by: Ultimuh on April 01, 2016, 02:31:31 am
Post by: Besserwisser on April 01, 2016, 03:11:10 am
Post by: Majestic7 on April 01, 2016, 03:56:35 am
Post by: Ultimuh on April 01, 2016, 03:59:13 am
Post by: Besserwisser on April 01, 2016, 05:22:27 am
Purging is tied to being xenophobe and I don't expect xenophobes to be capable of integrating other species into your realm peacefully.Well, that sucks. I wanna be a genocidal maniac but I wanna be sneaky about it. There should be a way to limit population growth of other species up to the point of outlawing their reproduction Combine style.
Post by: Teneb on April 01, 2016, 07:27:22 am
I saw a slave reproduction edict/law in the stream, so...Purging is tied to being xenophobe and I don't expect xenophobes to be capable of integrating other species into your realm peacefully.Well, that sucks. I wanna be a genocidal maniac but I wanna be sneaky about it. There should be a way to limit population growth of other species up to the point of outlawing their reproduction Combine style.
Post by: Greenbane on April 01, 2016, 08:21:03 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 01, 2016, 09:31:47 am
After full-annexing one neighbor, the Blorg got a large Threat modifier (equiv. to AE/infamy/bb/whatever) with all their remaining diplomatic contacts (smaller for non-adjacents, of course. By about half.) All those contacts then joined an alliance together.
But when the Blorg encountered a new contact, the new contact had no Threat modifier (and it was just as close to the Blorg as the other non-adjacent neighbors).
Further, the Blorg received no benefit from being in contact with all of those neighbors. I suppose they could designate them Rivals for the purpose of generating Influence, although even one or two adjacent rivals seemed sufficient what the Blorg were doing. Maybe a lot more resettlement could have required significantly more influence. But it's not like the Blorg were trading or otherwise dealing with those non-adjacent neighbors, whom they now have to fight in their next war.
Maybe the fact that there's limited choice in contacting non-adjacent neighbors means this is a moot point. A couple times, the Blorg were contacted via some kind of MTTH-delayed "adjacent to adjacent" contact. But regardless, it makes the game much different than, say, EU4. Imagine if in EU4, you didn't start with knowledge of your own continent. You could freely conquer everyone around you, only causing AE with people who knew you existed.
But regardless, I've started to have some doubts that this game will actually be very fun, because the number of other "players" (AI or whatever) is so small in the early game. And Martin said they were playing with a very high number of empires for the size of the map. If this is a "crowded" game, I can't imagine how little there will be to do on a "normal" map.
My other concern is that there is a lot of pointless clicking to upgrade planets, even on the limited number of home systems the player controls directly. Instead of thinking that every planet is like a province, we should be thinking that every planet tile is like in a province insofar as the number of clicks it requires to manage it. Development+estates in EU4 is already a nightmare of pointless yet mandatory clicking, and Stellaris is starting to look just as bad, if not worse.
Post by: Criptfeind on April 01, 2016, 09:36:35 am
Post by: RadtheCad on April 01, 2016, 02:48:41 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on April 01, 2016, 03:01:47 pm
I wonder how far culture wars are going to go. Like, if you can push your borders all the way into enemy planets that are actually colonized?
Post by: Cruxador on April 01, 2016, 03:20:53 pm
I'm actually looking forward to the game less having watched their streams again. Especially the bullshit border system.There was a great big shitstorm on their forums about it, so it will get better.
What part of the border system do you dislike? I have to admit, I found the idea that you could claim worlds (and indeed have a back and forth based on influence level) without building anything in them a interesting choice, although it makes a bit more sense since each race is going to be able to only colonize a small faction of planets at the start. So I guess it allows you to sorta "claim" future expansion without having to really scrabble for it with other races.The thing that really set a lot of people off was how the creation of a foreign colony undid the construction of a blorg starbase in an adjacent system. There's a lot of non-specific quibbling about the rigidity of borders in general, though.
Post by: majikero on April 01, 2016, 03:33:18 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on April 01, 2016, 03:39:47 pm
Post by: sambojin on April 01, 2016, 03:48:35 pm
It'll be interesting in our first steps in interstellar space travel if someone else has also "claimed" these places, whether they have anything permanent there or not. Diplomacy? CB? Who knows.
But the borders will be kind of janky if this is the case.......
"The First (and only) Human-Xeno war was started, not as most are, to get an increase in font size for your empire's name, but to make the borders look prettier instead. Starting with small diplomatic quarrels over uncolonized planets, it soon escalated and the galaxy was consumed by the fires of war, as fleets of post-ape mammals poured from their home planet, set on one thing, and one thing only. A big, blue blob, in the shape of one of their reproductive organs. Such militaristic and quasi-religious fanaticism has rarely been seen in any other species entering into the galactic domain, so early on in the piece.
Border jankiness and "shape-making" was quickly declared an unacceptable reason for conflict by the High Federation Council, and humanity was quietly purged from existence in the following decades."
Post by: Criptfeind on April 01, 2016, 03:57:48 pm
Post by: sambojin on April 01, 2016, 04:00:38 pm
Post by: Atian the Elephantman God on April 01, 2016, 05:07:57 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on April 01, 2016, 05:29:47 pm
(Although about watching them develop, given the timeframe of the game, which I doubt will normally last longer then a few hundred, or thousand at most, years I feel like there won't be any development without outside help of primitives, at least not ones that are not already almost on the cusp of flt travel. After all, humans were pretty boring from a space perspective for the first few million years.)
Post by: majikero on April 01, 2016, 08:51:13 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on April 01, 2016, 08:54:55 pm
Perhaps I should go for something.. Lovecraftian..
However I'll probably at some point try to make a space faring Chocobo empire. :p
Only question is.. Which of the Avian phenotypes looks most like Chocobos..
Post by: umiman on April 01, 2016, 09:12:00 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on April 01, 2016, 09:22:35 pm
I'll probably play my nation (http://www.nationstates.net/nation=umiman_feet), except it'd be in space.
That's not a terrible idea actually. Maybe I'll do the same with mine (https://www.nationstates.net/nation=ultimundus).. Except, that it is currently experiencing an identity crisis. (I am not sure what direction it should go in.) (On a related note, I Added your nation to my dossier.)
Post by: umiman on April 01, 2016, 09:37:29 pm
74% tax?!?!!!!I'll probably play my nation (http://www.nationstates.net/nation=umiman_feet), except it'd be in space.
That's not a terrible idea actually. Maybe I'll do the same with mine (https://www.nationstates.net/nation=ultimundus).. Except, that it is currently experiencing an identity crisis. (I am not sure what direction it should go in.) (On a related note, I Added your nation to my dossier.)
Post by: Ultimuh on April 01, 2016, 09:50:32 pm
74% tax?!?!!!!I'll probably play my nation (http://www.nationstates.net/nation=umiman_feet), except it'd be in space.
That's not a terrible idea actually. Maybe I'll do the same with mine (https://www.nationstates.net/nation=ultimundus).. Except, that it is currently experiencing an identity crisis. (I am not sure what direction it should go in.) (On a related note, I Added your nation to my dossier.)
I have done away with private corporations.
They didn't like me and I didn't like them. So I did what most sensible leaders would do.
Post by: Sirus on April 01, 2016, 09:56:06 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on April 01, 2016, 09:57:32 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 01, 2016, 10:35:01 pm
Dammit, I've got the Nationstate urge again.Is there a thread?
Post by: Shadowlord on April 01, 2016, 10:56:49 pm
Post by: Sirus on April 01, 2016, 11:01:21 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 02, 2016, 01:18:34 am
Post by: Besserwisser on April 02, 2016, 04:08:47 am
Imagine if in EU4, you didn't start with knowledge of your own continent. You could freely conquer everyone around you, only causing AE with people who knew you existed.Those are already legitimate concern, depending on which nation you play and where in the world you are and expand to. It's why you should never left-click on a province if you don't know of the capital of the owner or else you'll get AE with him.
Post by: BFEL on April 04, 2016, 07:48:43 am
Specifically, since there is a rough "rock paper scissors" to attack/defense type, a high research civ can rush a bunch of one combo and then proliferate it through the cosmos, and since it's a higher tier then what they were using, the AI in GC2 at least would use it instead.
You could then switch focus to a combo designed to beat that one, and have the most advantageous force in the galaxy.
Basically its this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqaCEPwWGtc weaponized.
Post by: Greenbane on April 04, 2016, 08:51:51 am
So after some thought on it I realized that Stellaris could well allow one of my favorite strategies from GalCiv2.
Specifically, since there is a rough "rock paper scissors" to attack/defense type, a high research civ can rush a bunch of one combo and then proliferate it through the cosmos, and since it's a higher tier then what they were using, the AI in GC2 at least would use it instead.
You could then switch focus to a combo designed to beat that one, and have the most advantageous force in the galaxy.
Basically its this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqaCEPwWGtc weaponized.
I do hate that kind of simplistic design, shoehorning in rock-paper-scissors without an ounce of sense instead of giving weapon types proper purpose. GalCiv2 and 3 were considerably lesser due to that.
I didn't know Stellaris had embraced such a scheme. Can anyone confirm?
Post by: Majestic7 on April 04, 2016, 09:25:06 am
Post by: Criptfeind on April 04, 2016, 09:31:38 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 04, 2016, 09:35:48 am
What I'm trying to say here is that Galciv 2 was a good example of how to not do combat in a 4x game. I would be surprised if Stellaris didn't surpass it in some way.
Post by: Greenbane on April 04, 2016, 09:54:01 am
Yeah. I guess any game is going to have some degree of rock paper scissors. We won't be able to tell if the combat is okay before we play it (I except boring, but serviceable, like their other games, which also means if you like games for their in depth combat and such, I think you'll be really disappointed by Stellaris). So far it doesn't seem as awful as Galciv or... I think endless space was like that as well? But it very well could be.
Yeah, every weapon is going to have counters, and that's fine, but GalCiv2-3 is notorious for adhering to the RPS scheme far too rigidly by design: technology's all over the place and you're forced to pick a weapon-defense path, and then it's completely random what you'll actually find in the field.
Maybe it turns out your nemesis uses a killer combination that requires you to overhaul your entire navy and start researching other defenses/weapons virtually from scratch. Nevermind if some species appears out of the blue, sporting that one third type of weapon you hadn't prepared for! At the same time, you could encounter a faction with just the right combination for you to easily steamroll them.
Such randomness always felt terrible on a fundamental level, and I'm astounded it made it into GalCiv3.
So anyway, glad to hear Stellaris doesn't seem to be so heavy-handed.
Post by: Drakale on April 04, 2016, 09:56:16 am
From what I have seen, combat options will be pretty limited in Stellaris, instead focusing on logistics. My biggest worry is the apparent death ball philosophy to space combat where you entire nation's military force is concentrated in one fleet at all time as an optimum strategy. I was hoping for some sort of province defense for your systems with more mobile dedicated warfleets you could use to reinforce or attack enemy positions. I just don't see many opportunities for stalemates and attrition wars in the current system. The gameplay video I saw went from one successful fight to subduing an entire same-sized empire in a very short time.
Post by: Greenbane on April 04, 2016, 10:29:21 am
Endless space wasn't exactly rock paper scissor in the tech department, but the combat actions you could take was.
From what I have seen, combat options will be pretty limited in Stellaris, instead focusing on logistics. My biggest worry is the apparent death ball philosophy to space combat where you entire nation's military force is concentrated in one fleet at all time as an optimum strategy. I was hoping for some sort of province defense for your systems with more mobile dedicated warfleets you could use to reinforce or attack enemy positions. I just don't see many opportunities for stalemates and attrition wars in the current system. The gameplay video I saw went from one successful fight to subduing an entire same-sized empire in a very short time.
Death-balling is a valid concern. The game could benefit from some Hearts of Iron-like mechanics, like limiting the amount of ships a single officer can command, and the amount of ships which can effectively engage in a single battle, with tech, ideology, traits and other factors affecting those limits.
Expansion material, I suppose.
Post by: Criptfeind on April 04, 2016, 10:44:38 am
Post by: Greenbane on April 04, 2016, 11:05:36 am
Alternatively, another implementation would do away with limits, instead opting to allow C&C modules to bestow general effectiveness bonuses upon a fleet, granting it an advantage against one with lesser or no C&C modules active.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 04, 2016, 11:20:55 am
Post by: Criptfeind on April 04, 2016, 11:26:47 am
Fleet/battle limits wouldn't necessarily feel forcedHum. Not necessarily forced, but it's hard for me to imagine that with the scale they are going with that any such limit wouldn't feel forced.
Increase efficiency though command ships sounds like a fine idea though.
Both Sword of the Stars and Star Ruler II have fleet size limits based on your command and control, and it works well in both. (In SR2, you can put more support command on your flagship to be able to have more support ships, but then you'll also need more supplies for them all, and both those things increase the flagship's upkeep cost. In SotS you need a command and control ship, and research increases how many ships they can command.)
I can't actually remember star ruler that well, but in sword of the stars at least it's like. Very contrived, and it doesn't make sense. It's a game thing done to make the game more enjoyable, and it's important for that because the combat is such a important part of the game and in it you personally control your ships in a rts style battle with some physics, where if you actually had hundreds of ships it'd be impossible to manage and it'd be a computer killer. So, for sword of the stars it's the right option. I don't think that'd necessarily be the case for Stellaris.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 04, 2016, 11:46:45 am
Presumably that won't be a problem in Stellaris? I haven't watched/read all the stuff, so I don't know how the combat works.
Post by: Criptfeind on April 04, 2016, 11:50:39 am
Post by: Puzzlemaker on April 04, 2016, 11:56:19 am
Post by: Cruxador on April 04, 2016, 12:01:41 pm
I do hate that kind of simplistic design, shoehorning in rock-paper-scissors without an ounce of sense instead of giving weapon types proper purpose. GalCiv2 and 3 were considerably lesser due to that.It's a simplification, and not exactly accurate. Lasers are more effectively deflected by shields, while mass drivers are more effectively deflected by armor. Missiles are effective against either but are vulnerable to point defense. It's not a true rock paper scissors situation, but it is a "get the right tech/module to beat your enemies" situation.
I didn't know Stellaris had embraced such a scheme. Can anyone confirm?
Yeah. I guess any game is going to have some degree of rock paper scissors. We won't be able to tell if the combat is okay before we play it (I except boring, but serviceable, like their other games, which also means if you like games for their in depth combat and such, I think you'll be really disappointed by Stellaris). So far it doesn't seem as awful as Galciv or... I think endless space was like that as well? But it very well could be.Boring but serviceable seems about right. You can't interact with it aside from calling a retreat, and so it's mostly just watching ships swirl around each other with guns blasting, while numbers change on a display panel. Visually, it's more interesting than their other games, but I'm not sure that's true of the actual numbers and stuff that you care about though there is information about which weapons and modules are doing the most, which could be handy. However, your interaction with combat isn't necessarily the only important part just consider the great depth of Dominions 4, where you only set tactics ahead of time. Stellaris won't be that deep, but designing your ships and assigning them combat computers should at least be more than Paradox' previous games.
Endless space wasn't exactly rock paper scissor in the tech department, but the combat actions you could take was.The dev said that keeping everything in one fleet was typical to the early game, implying that it's less so later on though I'll believe that when I see it. There is a province defense system though in fact there's two. You have defensive armies (those without dedicated transports, who stick to their own worlds) as PD against ground invasions, and you build defensive stations (or defensive modules on other stations) as PD for the system.
From what I have seen, combat options will be pretty limited in Stellaris, instead focusing on logistics. My biggest worry is the apparent death ball philosophy to space combat where you entire nation's military force is concentrated in one fleet at all time as an optimum strategy. I was hoping for some sort of province defense for your systems with more mobile dedicated warfleets you could use to reinforce or attack enemy positions. I just don't see many opportunities for stalemates and attrition wars in the current system. The gameplay video I saw went from one successful fight to subduing an entire same-sized empire in a very short time.
The former of those systems is confirmed in the game; the size of a single fleet is limited. The starting limit seems high enough not to matter in the early game, though.Endless space wasn't exactly rock paper scissor in the tech department, but the combat actions you could take was.
From what I have seen, combat options will be pretty limited in Stellaris, instead focusing on logistics. My biggest worry is the apparent death ball philosophy to space combat where you entire nation's military force is concentrated in one fleet at all time as an optimum strategy. I was hoping for some sort of province defense for your systems with more mobile dedicated warfleets you could use to reinforce or attack enemy positions. I just don't see many opportunities for stalemates and attrition wars in the current system. The gameplay video I saw went from one successful fight to subduing an entire same-sized empire in a very short time.
Death-balling is a valid concern. The game could benefit from some Hearts of Iron-like mechanics, like limiting the amount of ships a single officer can command, and the amount of ships which can effectively engage in a single battle, with tech, ideology, traits and other factors affecting those limits.
Expansion material, I suppose.
Post by: Criptfeind on April 04, 2016, 12:05:20 pm
On top of that if you end up with a large empire, it may take a long time for your fleet to move from one side to the other, depending on your warp type.
This is the sort of natural reason I'd expect to split ships up. If you're the big guy and have multiple smaller enemies you need to keep track of, then you'll naturally have to split your fleets. I except if you're smaller, or only have one rival, it'd very much make sense to keep all your fleets together. And I'm fine with that.
In addition I expect that they'll rebalance warscore so that wars last quite a bit longer then the one on the stream did. And with war wariness you'll have to consider splitting your fleets up to siege multiple planets at once, which at least leaves some tactical options for a wary opponent if they can scrape together another fleet to try to take you out piecemeal, or at least, more realistically, you doing this to a larger empire.
Post by: Descan on April 04, 2016, 12:33:15 pm
Boarding actions, interdiction, fighter-craft, disabling engines/weapons, propaganda, captains deciding to surrender to protect their crews, etc.
Post by: Defacto on April 04, 2016, 01:10:46 pm
I do think that things like boarding, propaganda and surrender would be interesting features, too.
I guess it would depend not only on the morale, but also the perception that ship crews have of their enemy. Ships would not be likely to surrender to murderous mass-purgers, but if you're a decadent and violent empire loosing a fight against a bunch of individualistic xenophiles, that could start off mass desertions. This kind of feature would add a lot of depth, I think.
Post by: BFEL on April 04, 2016, 08:40:59 pm
I believe the effect it has in Stellaris is similar, but much MUCH less pronounced. So while I'll be milking Wimp Lo for all its worth, I don't expect it to win me the game the way it would in GalCiv.
Post by: Teneb on April 04, 2016, 09:32:15 pm
Wimp LoWhat?
Post by: BFEL on April 04, 2016, 10:03:54 pm
Wimp LoWhat?
Basically its this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqaCEPwWGtc weaponized.
Post by: Greenbane on April 07, 2016, 05:05:05 pm
https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/v/59117784 (https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/v/59117784)
Post by: Criptfeind on April 07, 2016, 05:11:06 pm
Post by: redwallzyl on April 07, 2016, 05:17:55 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Descan on April 07, 2016, 05:18:30 pm
Post by: umiman on April 07, 2016, 06:14:30 pm
I've seen it, a lot of bugs get showcased and a few complaints about boarders some people have brought up have been addressed (Now a colony starts with a tiny boarder that slowly grows as it's settled, and boarder spread in general has been reduced) Also, a fallen empire!Yeah, normally I don't make a fuss about spelling... but that repeated typo in this context makes things really confusing.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 07, 2016, 06:33:32 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on April 07, 2016, 06:38:49 pm
I've seen it, a lot of bugs get showcased and a few complaints about boarders some people have brought up have been addressed (Now a colony starts with a tiny boarder that slowly grows as it's settled, and boarder spread in general has been reduced) Also, a fallen empire!Yeah, normally I don't make a fuss about spelling... but that repeated typo in this context makes things really confusing.
RIP me I guess.
Post by: Wysthric on April 07, 2016, 06:57:57 pm
I've seen it, a lot of bugs get showcased and a few complaints about boarders some people have brought up have been addressed (Now a colony starts with a tiny boarder that slowly grows as it's settled, and boarder spread in general has been reduced) Also, a fallen empire!Yeah, normally I don't make a fuss about spelling... but that repeated typo in this context makes things really confusing.
RIP me I guess.
Genuinely thought that Colonies had a "Boarder" unit that functioned as defense against ground invasion and Boarders from ship to ship combat had to organically spread around enemy ships, which would be a bit overkill to simulate.
Post by: Cruxador on April 07, 2016, 08:20:28 pm
new blackhole texture.New model too, although I'm pretty sure it's the same sphere that they use for all stars and possibly also planets/moons.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 07, 2016, 08:48:05 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on April 07, 2016, 09:04:15 pm
Yeah, they should at least use some dodecahedrons.
Post by: Cruxador on April 08, 2016, 11:20:51 am
The same sphere? Really? Wow, I was expecting unique spheres. Things'd get pretty boring when everything's the same sphere.That wasn't really a complaint, I was just putting a qualifier on my pedantry to avoid getting pedanted back.
Although it does look like it was clearly something they threw together quickly in response to the complaints about the (shitty looking) previous black hole. It still doesn't look much like a real one would (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/BlackHole_Lensing.gif) but it's a big improvement and the best we could expect in the time that they had to address the issue. Proper gravitic lensing would have almost certainly involved engine changes, and I guess making the black hole look truly matte is non-trivial as well.
Post by: Descan on April 08, 2016, 11:54:16 am
Post by: Malus on April 08, 2016, 01:55:38 pm
They're pretty clearly going for the Interstellar-style black hole (http://i.imgur.com/Fe9BXiv.jpg), which, as I understand it, is one of the more realistic depictions of black holes. Some lensing would be a neat touch, but I think their current black hole is more than adequate.The same sphere? Really? Wow, I was expecting unique spheres. Things'd get pretty boring when everything's the same sphere.It still doesn't look much like a real one would (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/BlackHole_Lensing.gif) but it's a big improvement and the best we could expect in the time that they had to address the issue. Proper gravitic lensing would have almost certainly involved engine changes, and I guess making the black hole look truly matte is non-trivial as well.
Post by: Cruxador on April 08, 2016, 02:12:12 pm
I know what they were going for. But the only thing it really has in common with that is being black, round, and having a visible accretion disk (which isn't typical of black holes). A lot of what made it fairly realistic was not included, and the movie depiction didn't even really account for the doppler effect.They're pretty clearly going for the Interstellar-style black hole (http://i.imgur.com/Fe9BXiv.jpg), which, as I understand it, is one of the more realistic depictions of black holes. Some lensing would be a neat touch, but I think their current black hole is more than adequate.The same sphere? Really? Wow, I was expecting unique spheres. Things'd get pretty boring when everything's the same sphere.It still doesn't look much like a real one would (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/BlackHole_Lensing.gif) but it's a big improvement and the best we could expect in the time that they had to address the issue. Proper gravitic lensing would have almost certainly involved engine changes, and I guess making the black hole look truly matte is non-trivial as well.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 08, 2016, 02:49:57 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on April 08, 2016, 02:52:15 pm
Post by: Ghazkull on April 08, 2016, 02:57:11 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 08, 2016, 03:58:52 pm
Uh-oh, guys! Paradox didn't fully take into account the workings of relativistic physics in their depictions of black holes. Game's ruined. Pack it up, it's all over. Let's go home.
Not just in their depictions of black holes. There's no time dilation, either.
Sure, game's not "ruined." But it's an oversimplified depiction of the universe. Much like their depiction of feudalism, the Renaissance, mid-20th century European politics, China at basically any point in time...
Post by: Rolan7 on April 08, 2016, 04:03:53 pm
No idea what happened to it
I guess my point is that time dilation is practically impossible to simulate in a multiplayer game, and a nightmare to actually depict. Though the latter might be interesting.
(I did like how they managed it in Payday 2. Time slows down for a few seconds when you get incapacitated, but presumably it catches you back up with the other players. Hard to say because there were a lot of absurd desync bugs when I was playing, mostly soon after the release)
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 08, 2016, 04:16:51 pm
I think I remember hearing about some indie game that tried to take account for time dilation, back in the 00's?
No idea what happened to it
I guess my point is that time dilation is practically impossible to simulate in a multiplayer game, and a nightmare to actually depict. Though the latter might be interesting.
In this case it's not so hard, and there are plenty of things it should affect. Leaders should age slower, and get less research done, while at warp. Repairs should be slower for a fleet at warp (also true of general maintenance for troops and ships, too).
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 08, 2016, 08:29:49 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on April 08, 2016, 08:32:59 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 08, 2016, 09:05:30 pm
Post by: Descan on April 08, 2016, 10:49:47 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 08, 2016, 11:03:42 pm
The only "realistic" thing I really want is a 3d galaxy. Ours is 100k light years across but also 10k light years deep. It's 10% tall as it is wide, and I'd love if that were represented.
It's been done before. I don't know how you feel about the matter, but man it was very hard to manage.
Post by: sambojin on April 08, 2016, 11:07:48 pm
Geez. Don't you know anything? :P
Post by: Criptfeind on April 09, 2016, 07:47:39 am
However, non flat galaxies, if their game could actually support it. I mean, it might be a cool option you know?
Post by: MDFification on April 09, 2016, 11:47:03 am
Blorg is love, blorg is life.
Post by: Teneb on April 09, 2016, 11:48:48 am
01_EMBASSY_PROPOSE
Blorg is love, blorg is life.
Spoiler: image (click to show/hide)
Post by: redwallzyl on April 09, 2016, 12:22:38 pm
The only "realistic" thing I really want is a 3d galaxy. Ours is 100k light years across but also 10k light years deep. It's 10% tall as it is wide, and I'd love if that were represented.they actually have a slightly 3D map. They showed it off in one of the streams. It's just hard to see it because your looking top down.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 09, 2016, 12:33:41 pm
Post by: umiman on April 09, 2016, 12:48:02 pm
Sword of the stars has 3d galaxies (or, probably more accurately, random clusters of stars. 250 stars or whatever does not a galaxy make), even ones that are way less flat then ours. It's mostly a pain in the ass, and personally, once I played around on a non flat map, I'd always go back to the mostly flat ones. After that I really couldn't care less about non flat galaxy maps. Also maybe I'm misremembering (which my spell checker says is not a word but google disagrees so okay), but there seemed to be at least some cosmetic height staggering, just hard to see because all the names and stuff are on a flat overlay.Yeah, it's something you use once then never again because it's a massive headache to deal with. SotS 2 had it really, really bad especially with their stupid province system.
Because honestly, from a practical standpoint there is literally no difference between stars on different planes versus a flat galaxy except distance. It's just unnecessarily confusing.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on April 09, 2016, 01:36:36 pm
Someone's graduated from the Khan school of strategic thinking, I see. :)Sword of the stars has 3d galaxies (or, probably more accurately, random clusters of stars. 250 stars or whatever does not a galaxy make), even ones that are way less flat then ours. It's mostly a pain in the ass, and personally, once I played around on a non flat map, I'd always go back to the mostly flat ones. After that I really couldn't care less about non flat galaxy maps. Also maybe I'm misremembering (which my spell checker says is not a word but google disagrees so okay), but there seemed to be at least some cosmetic height staggering, just hard to see because all the names and stuff are on a flat overlay.Yeah, it's something you use once then never again because it's a massive headache to deal with. SotS 2 had it really, really bad especially with their stupid province system.
Because honestly, from a practical standpoint there is literally no difference between stars on different planes versus a flat galaxy except distance. It's just unnecessarily confusing.
Yes, 3-D space is confusing. It also creates scenarios that are impossible with 2-D space. You can't "encircle" someone's territory and cut them off from expansion quite so easily if they have "up" and "down" as expansion vectors as well. You can have a string of colonized planets creating a corridor of owned space that goes over or under someone else's territory across the galactic arm, allowing you to move unrestricted without infringing on any borders. Lots of things are possible if you spend the time to think about it.
Some of my most favorite maps in SotS are the highly-3D ones, especially when playing as humans. The node network being what it is, you can find good paths far more often, and can be cut off far less easily, if you have some extra directions to go into.
Post by: umiman on April 09, 2016, 03:27:49 pm
Is... Is that a challenge?Someone's graduated from the Khan school of strategic thinking, I see. :)Sword of the stars has 3d galaxies (or, probably more accurately, random clusters of stars. 250 stars or whatever does not a galaxy make), even ones that are way less flat then ours. It's mostly a pain in the ass, and personally, once I played around on a non flat map, I'd always go back to the mostly flat ones. After that I really couldn't care less about non flat galaxy maps. Also maybe I'm misremembering (which my spell checker says is not a word but google disagrees so okay), but there seemed to be at least some cosmetic height staggering, just hard to see because all the names and stuff are on a flat overlay.Yeah, it's something you use once then never again because it's a massive headache to deal with. SotS 2 had it really, really bad especially with their stupid province system.
Because honestly, from a practical standpoint there is literally no difference between stars on different planes versus a flat galaxy except distance. It's just unnecessarily confusing.
Yes, 3-D space is confusing. It also creates scenarios that are impossible with 2-D space. You can't "encircle" someone's territory and cut them off from expansion quite so easily if they have "up" and "down" as expansion vectors as well. You can have a string of colonized planets creating a corridor of owned space that goes over or under someone else's territory across the galactic arm, allowing you to move unrestricted without infringing on any borders. Lots of things are possible if you spend the time to think about it.
Some of my most favorite maps in SotS are the highly-3D ones, especially when playing as humans. The node network being what it is, you can find good paths far more often, and can be cut off far less easily, if you have some extra directions to go into.
FITE ME 1V1 BRO!
Post by: inteuniso on April 09, 2016, 05:42:33 pm
Post by: redwallzyl on April 09, 2016, 06:16:12 pm
Post by: Cruxador on April 09, 2016, 06:29:34 pm
The only "realistic" thing I really want is a 3d galaxy. Ours is 100k light years across but also 10k light years deep. It's 10% tall as it is wide, and I'd love if that were represented.It's already rendered in 3D, although I kind of suspect it's actually done on a plane in terms of game mechanics and stars are just rendered with a graphical displacement in the 3D space.
Post by: Descan on April 09, 2016, 06:33:56 pm
Post by: Cruxador on April 09, 2016, 07:09:49 pm
Yeah, it's 2D in mechanics, as you can be boxed in by other empires and can't get past them with ships or colonies without them allowing you to fly through their space. A 3D map would make that very difficult to do, since you could just go over or under them.That's not proof-positive, although the borders are represented in 2D, they could be round. They would still block off bypassing by going around since you can only travel in a straight line from one system to another.
Post by: Descan on April 09, 2016, 07:15:25 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on April 09, 2016, 11:59:49 pm
Post by: Descan on April 10, 2016, 01:06:30 am
doesn't look like you can jump/warp to empty space between stars
and if the enemy empire controls all the stars along the border that are within warp/jimp distance (i.e. you can't just jump through their borders to a star outside their influence on the other side) then you're locked in, at least on that front
Post by: Cruxador on April 10, 2016, 03:19:18 am
Except that's still 2D since in a 3D galaxy, the stars would also be scattered in the vertical plane as well as horizontal.Well, they are though. Just not very much.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 10, 2016, 05:01:57 am
nah even warp and wormhole FTL looks like it'll still need another star system to target
doesn't look like you can jump/warp to empty space between stars
and if the enemy empire controls all the stars along the border that are within warp/jimp distance (i.e. you can't just jump through their borders to a star outside their influence on the other side) then you're locked in, at least on that front
Really? That's too bad. You can warp/etc into empty space in Star Ruler II and it's sometimes useful (for hiding ships or fleets where they won't be as likely to be spotted by scouts, for example, or pre-positioning them near someone else's systems prior to war, but not in border systems so they don't get suspicious).
Post by: Majestic7 on April 12, 2016, 03:45:49 am
Post by: MrWiggles on April 12, 2016, 04:06:33 am
My understanding is that its a Pathfinding nightmare.nah even warp and wormhole FTL looks like it'll still need another star system to target
doesn't look like you can jump/warp to empty space between stars
and if the enemy empire controls all the stars along the border that are within warp/jimp distance (i.e. you can't just jump through their borders to a star outside their influence on the other side) then you're locked in, at least on that front
Really? That's too bad. You can warp/etc into empty space in Star Ruler II and it's sometimes useful (for hiding ships or fleets where they won't be as likely to be spotted by scouts, for example, or pre-positioning them near someone else's systems prior to war, but not in border systems so they don't get suspicious).
Post by: umiman on April 12, 2016, 09:53:37 am
Nobody noticed the new dev diary? (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-29-pop-factions-elections.919918/)From what I saw in the stream, the faction system is really simple and kinda boring. Every time it popped up they just pressed a button and it went away for awhile.
Post by: Teneb on April 12, 2016, 10:00:29 am
They kept bribing it or assassinating the leaders. But yeah. I'm guessing it'll be expanded in DLC not unlike CK2 factions.Nobody noticed the new dev diary? (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-29-pop-factions-elections.919918/)From what I saw in the stream, the faction system is really simple and kinda boring. Every time it popped up they just pressed a button and it went away for awhile.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 12, 2016, 11:13:52 am
Nobody noticed the new dev diary? (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-29-pop-factions-elections.919918/)From what I saw in the stream, the faction system is really simple and kinda boring. Every time it popped up they just pressed a button and it went away for awhile.
This is how unrest works in most Paradox games, so that's no surprise.
Post by: Cruxador on April 12, 2016, 07:10:42 pm
Nobody noticed the new dev diary? (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-29-pop-factions-elections.919918/)Nothing there was really new info if you've been keeping up with the streams.
Post by: umiman on April 12, 2016, 07:28:37 pm
Oh god I'm old enough to remember Neonivek and Cthulhu when they were younger...
Someone kill me.
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 12, 2016, 07:33:13 pm
Post by: umiman on April 12, 2016, 07:37:37 pm
I don't remember Cruxador ever not being nitpicky :PI think we should judge how much he loves things by how much he nitpicks it.
Kinda like those tsundere characters except instead of tsun it'd be... uh... nitpickdere?
Post by: Teneb on April 12, 2016, 07:40:22 pm
I guess he'll be glad senpai noticed him, then?I don't remember Cruxador ever not being nitpicky :PI think we should judge how much he loves things by how much he nitpicks it.
Kinda like those tsundere characters except instead of tsun it'd be... uh... nitpickdere?
Post by: Cruxador on April 12, 2016, 08:39:24 pm
This is generally accurate.I don't remember Cruxador ever not being nitpicky :PI think we should judge how much he loves things by how much he nitpicks it.
Post by: redwallzyl on April 13, 2016, 06:20:00 pm
notice the name
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
cool extradimensional invader screenshot
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
also this is just funny
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Aklyon on April 13, 2016, 11:14:43 pm
I thought that was Neonivek's thing.I don't remember Cruxador ever not being nitpicky :PI think we should judge how much he loves things by how much he nitpicks it.
Kinda like those tsundere characters except instead of tsun it'd be... uh... nitpickdere?
Post by: BFEL on April 14, 2016, 01:20:08 am
Obviously its Pathos' thing.I thought that was Neonivek's thing.I don't remember Cruxador ever not being nitpicky :PI think we should judge how much he loves things by how much he nitpicks it.
Kinda like those tsundere characters except instead of tsun it'd be... uh... nitpickdere?
Post by: Cruxador on April 14, 2016, 01:30:43 am
cool extradimensional invader screenshotWhat's the source/context on this one?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Descan on April 14, 2016, 02:37:56 am
Post by: redwallzyl on April 14, 2016, 09:00:33 am
it's from the steam store page.cool extradimensional invader screenshotWhat's the source/context on this one?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rift on April 14, 2016, 11:26:30 am
Also pre-ordering exists now., the only worth mentioning pre-order bonus is a dlc with 5 more alien races
Post by: Teneb on April 14, 2016, 11:45:50 am
For pre-order:
Blorg Paradox Forums avatar, mobile ringtones (wat), cosmetic dlc with 5 alien appearances ("Hydra/Xenomorph, Evil Porcupine, Dinosaur Bird, Shadowy Anthropoid and Fungoid Infected Mammalian"), and your name sent to actual space on a weather baloon.
Digital Deluxe Edition:
All of the above plus: the soundtrack, a Paradox Forums icon, and another cosmetic DLC (in this case, space spider)
Galaxy Edition:
All of the above plus: A novel, an art book, a wallpaper signed by the devs, another forum avatar, and another forum icon.
It's all pretty cheap, at least from my perspective (the galaxy edition is R$123,99 for me. As a comparison Dark Souls 3 is R$159,90 and Rainbow Six Siege is R$129,90. Conversion rate is U$1,00 = R$3,52).
Post by: Rift on April 14, 2016, 12:06:21 pm
additional $30US (from base) for that one extra race + ebook + poster doesnt do it for me too. but i guess some people do like signed stuff.
Post by: Glloyd on April 14, 2016, 12:37:41 pm
Post by: Cruxador on April 14, 2016, 01:13:23 pm
Post by: redwallzyl on April 14, 2016, 02:08:54 pm
Post by: Teneb on April 14, 2016, 02:14:18 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on April 14, 2016, 02:44:38 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on April 14, 2016, 02:53:20 pm
Well, fuck. I accidentally went and bought it. My first pre-order since Master of Orion III if you don't count early access purchases. My weak ass logic is that the more preorders Paradox gets emm the more resources they allocate for support right after launch? Ehhh.... not a very good excuse. Umm, the devil made me do it?
I may also "accidently" pre-order the game. Tomorrow when I get home from work. :v
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 14, 2016, 03:59:48 pm
Quote
to actual space on a weather baloon.
Well, not really.
Post by: Teneb on April 14, 2016, 04:19:58 pm
Upper atmosphere is space if you wish hard enough.Quoteto actual space on a weather baloon.
Well, not really.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 14, 2016, 04:43:19 pm
This just in: Paradox has UFOs! :o
Post by: Greenbane on April 14, 2016, 05:05:29 pm
The jump was more marked for the Galaxy Edition, which ultimately contained too much stuff I didn't care about.
Post by: Ultimuh on April 14, 2016, 05:09:06 pm
Look, you just have to use creative thinking, some cognitive dissonance, and maybe a little insane troll logic: If you don't know it's a weather balloon, it's an Unidentified Flying Object, and everyone knows UFOs can go to outer space.
This just in: Paradox has UFOs! :o
Spoiler: I would advise you to take a look at this thing. (click to show/hide)
Post by: umiman on April 14, 2016, 05:56:57 pm
Preordered the Nova Edition at Nuuvem. Seemed fairly cheap for a new high-profile game (91 BRL = 26 USD). Could've settled with the standard version, but there wasn't a significant price difference.What about this though?
The jump was more marked for the Galaxy Edition, which ultimately contained too much stuff I didn't care about.
Quote
Available Regions
This game cannot be activated outside Latin America.
Post by: Greenbane on April 14, 2016, 06:17:26 pm
What about this though?QuoteAvailable Regions
This game cannot be activated outside Latin America.
I live in Argentina. :D
Post by: Teneb on April 14, 2016, 06:24:27 pm
I am guessing steam doesn't support argentine pesos?What about this though?I live in Argentina. :DQuoteAvailable Regions
This game cannot be activated outside Latin America.
Post by: BFEL on April 14, 2016, 06:29:55 pm
Post by: Greenbane on April 14, 2016, 06:36:37 pm
I am guessing steam doesn't support argentine pesos?
There's no Argentina region for Steam, nor are we included in the Brazil region.
We get full American USD pricing, so it's usually better and possible to find third-party sites with better discounts. Nuuvem, following the Brazil regional pricing, is usually at least 50% cheaper. The downside is that the available selection is limited, and a few AAA games are specifically locked to Brazil. My backup is Green Man Gaming, which follows American pricing (for me at least), has a greater selection of games, and usually 20-25% discount coupons.
I do buy things on Steam directly sometimes, but it's usually minor titles during major sales.
Post by: umiman on April 14, 2016, 07:04:02 pm
I don't think anyone these days would fault you for not buying from Steam.I am guessing steam doesn't support argentine pesos?
There's no Argentina region for Steam, nor are we included in the Brazil region.
We get full American USD pricing, so it's usually better and possible to find third-party sites with better discounts. Nuuvem, following the Brazil regional pricing, is usually at least 50% cheaper. The downside is that the available selection is limited, and a few AAA games are specifically locked to Brazil. My backup is Green Man Gaming, which follows American pricing (for me at least), has a greater selection of games, and usually 20-25% discount coupons.
I do buy things on Steam directly sometimes, but it's usually minor titles during major sales.
I'm a bit jealous you can get Stellaris so cheap. It's the first time I've seen that message on Nuuvem too. I got so excited after I saw that you bought it on there too.
Post by: Greenbane on April 14, 2016, 08:07:09 pm
I don't think anyone these days would fault you for not buying from Steam.
I'm a bit jealous you can get Stellaris so cheap. It's the first time I've seen that message on Nuuvem too. I got so excited after I saw that you bought it on there too.
There used to be less region-locking on Nuuvem, before late 2015, but I suppose someone (presumably publishers) saw too much out-of-region activity and decided to apply harsher measures. I mean, it's not something the storefront decides, but rather something embedded in the keys they acquire from the various publishers. XCOM 2 was locked to South America when I preordered in September, but later I saw that change to Brazil-only. I asked customer support about it, and they told me I'd have no issues with my key as it was purchased before the lock was enacted (before they purchased that later batch of keys, I guess). And indeed, my copy of XCOM 2 activated just fine.
Anyway, Green Man Gaming has a universal 20% off code active right now, so you can get the standard version of Stellaris for as low as $31.99 USD right now. I'm guessing the code applies to Nova and Galaxy Editions, too. That's something, at least. You could also wait and see if more uncommon discounts pop up: 23% and 25% off codes do appear periodically.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on April 15, 2016, 01:24:50 am
It costs 699 rubles for me. Or roughly $10.5. :PI don't think anyone these days would fault you for not buying from Steam.I am guessing steam doesn't support argentine pesos?
There's no Argentina region for Steam, nor are we included in the Brazil region.
We get full American USD pricing, so it's usually better and possible to find third-party sites with better discounts. Nuuvem, following the Brazil regional pricing, is usually at least 50% cheaper. The downside is that the available selection is limited, and a few AAA games are specifically locked to Brazil. My backup is Green Man Gaming, which follows American pricing (for me at least), has a greater selection of games, and usually 20-25% discount coupons.
I do buy things on Steam directly sometimes, but it's usually minor titles during major sales.
I'm a bit jealous you can get Stellaris so cheap. It's the first time I've seen that message on Nuuvem too. I got so excited after I saw that you bought it on there too.
I wouldn't think of not buying something from Steam as long as it keeps up this sort of regional pricing here. :)
Post by: BuriBuriZaemon on April 15, 2016, 04:12:26 am
Post by: Majestic7 on April 15, 2016, 04:34:58 am
Post by: Ultimuh on April 15, 2016, 04:42:10 am
So who is going to be the first to mod dworves into the game?
Well, one would have to be able to animate portraits, maybe not all that necessary at first.
I guess a still image would be possible.
And then a name list should be made.
Names however seem to be tied to phenotypes, so a new "Dwarvish" phenotype might be needed as well.
Emblems might not be too important, unless you want maces, pickaxes, beer kegs, and other dwarven-themed emblems.
I guess that's all that's needed really.
Post by: Majestic7 on April 15, 2016, 04:51:07 am
Post by: Culise on April 15, 2016, 08:03:26 am
Also, Nova edition here as well. I suppose, when all is said and done, I still consider Paradox worth the trust of a full-price buy, and the Nova edition, while not offering much above the standard, is the price I would have expected for the base game.
Post by: Greenbane on April 15, 2016, 10:56:15 am
It costs 699 rubles for me. Or roughly $10.5. :P
I wouldn't think of not buying something from Steam as long as it keeps up this sort of regional pricing here. :)
Yeah, Russia consistently has the highest discounts, but also the harshest region locks and then some. That is, Russian copies sometimes only have a Russian localization. Not to mention trade locks on Steam. Given the very significant economic benefit, obviously publishers will do their darnedest to keep it contained within the intended region.
Also, Nova edition here as well. I suppose, when all is said and done, I still consider Paradox worth the trust of a full-price buy, and the Nova edition, while not offering much above the standard, is the price I would have expected for the base game.
Nova Squad! We are go! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkrfCSyugnM)
:P
Post by: BFEL on April 15, 2016, 11:40:30 am
Post by: Cruxador on April 15, 2016, 12:07:30 pm
Names however seem to be tied to phenotypes, so a new "Dwarvish" phenotype might be needed as well.I think that although the current name lists are divided by phenotype, there's no reason it needs to be that way always.
BFEL purposely preordered standard edition. Because BFEL is cheap.I'm with you. I can't justify paying ten bucks for a spider and some pointless gimmick content. There's got to be a line somewhere.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 15, 2016, 12:57:15 pm
Post by: umiman on April 15, 2016, 01:01:48 pm
I haven't pre-ordered it. The line must be drawn here, this far and no farther. ;)Same. I would have if it was >$25 but not right now no. After all, I'm still fully confident this game won't be all that upon release or at least until the first few DLC.
Post by: Cruxador on April 15, 2016, 01:02:34 pm
I think your sign is backwards, because this game is >$25.I haven't pre-ordered it. The line must be drawn here, this far and no farther. ;)Same. I would have if it was >$25 but not right now no. After all, I'm still fully confident this game won't be all that upon release or at least until the first few DLC.
Post by: Greenbane on April 15, 2016, 01:24:56 pm
Personally, I paid a bit more than necessary because I want to support Paradox and want them to keep making games and extra content.
Post by: scriver on April 15, 2016, 02:30:34 pm
I haven't pre-ordered it. The line must be drawn here, this far and no farther. ;)
Comrade, I stand with you!
Post by: Egan_BW on April 15, 2016, 02:55:01 pm
Post by: Aklyon on April 15, 2016, 02:58:07 pm
Post by: Cruxador on April 15, 2016, 03:10:20 pm
BDOBad Dragon Online?
Post by: Aklyon on April 15, 2016, 03:11:57 pm
Post by: umiman on April 15, 2016, 04:10:44 pm
Same. It's gonna be bleh at launch anyway. I would have bought it if it was >CAD$23 though.I haven't pre-ordered it. The line must be drawn here, this far and no farther. ;)
Comrade, I stand with you!
Post by: Persus13 on April 15, 2016, 04:34:41 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2SkSame. It's gonna be bleh at launch anyway. I would have bought it if it was >CAD$23 though.I haven't pre-ordered it. The line must be drawn here, this far and no farther. ;)
Comrade, I stand with you!
Pretty sure you mean <$23
Post by: Shadowlord on April 15, 2016, 05:14:21 pm
BDOBad Dragon Online?
Second Life?
Post by: Aklyon on April 15, 2016, 05:24:28 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 15, 2016, 05:44:55 pm
Does second life still exist to begin with? I haven't heard a thing about it in years.
They're coming out with another Second Life. In essence, a Fourth Life.
Post by: Teneb on April 15, 2016, 05:45:33 pm
Shouldn't it be Third Life?Does second life still exist to begin with? I haven't heard a thing about it in years.They're coming out with another Second Life. In essence, a Fourth Life.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 15, 2016, 05:53:48 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on April 15, 2016, 05:58:11 pm
Post by: Knave on April 15, 2016, 06:40:17 pm
Post by: Greenbane on April 15, 2016, 07:47:55 pm
25% off at greenmangaming (http://www.greenmangaming.com/ones-to-watch/) with the watch25 code. Probably won't get much deeper than that for us north american folks.
I would suggest everyone on the fence to go for that.
For those unable to take advantage of Brazilian or Russian discounts, the only way to get it cheaper than that is to resort to shadier, less reliable sites. Or wait a fair bit of time and get the game on sale after release.
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 15, 2016, 08:49:56 pm
Post by: sambojin on April 15, 2016, 09:01:01 pm
This is one of those things that "You get 5 extra portraits and races" doesn't really count for much for pre-order. Because of modding. But you get to play straight away.
But waiting until a sale isn't bad either, because of modding. You also get bugfixes and better/more developed mods.
For us non rubleians or pesorians, I can't see the advantage of the "higher tier" releases in digital format, or necessarily the "bonus" of pre-release compared to sale prices. Beta testing is fun though. And I do like having cool collector junk.
I don't think this is a "mods-will-fix-it" style game. Just that mods will quickly and easily add so much to the game in easily acquirable packages, that higher tier purchases seem like they offer very little actual value. Other than random collector thingies that might not be very good/relevant anyway.
Don't get me wrong, I'm hyped as all hell for the game, and will purchase it asap. But time and money and all that being a value-adder to this, I can't see a pre-order happening.
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 16, 2016, 08:29:43 am
Post by: Dostoevsky on April 16, 2016, 02:30:14 pm
25% off at greenmangaming (http://www.greenmangaming.com/ones-to-watch/) with the watch25 code. Probably won't get much deeper than that for us north american folks.
Many thanks. Lets one pick up the Nova edition for less than $40 (for that OST).
Post by: JacenHanLovesLegos on April 16, 2016, 04:17:37 pm
The dwarf names and fleet names I just took from one of my own fortresses, and the planet names are mostly from community or succession fortresses. Some of the army names are pretty generic, and could probably be better. The generic ship names are just various pieces of clothing and equipment in DF. Anyway, here it is:
Code: [Select]
DWA1 = {
selectable = yes
ship_names = {
generic = {
"Battleaxe" "Warhammer" "Shield" "Buckler" "Shortsword"
"Spear" "Helm" "Crossbow" "Mace" "Breastplate"
"Lash" "Dagger" "Pick" "Sock" "Gauntlet"
"Glove" "Cloak" "Boot"
}
corvette = {
"Sharp" "Quick" "Frenzy" "Bloodstain" "Scar"
"Gore" "Maim" "Maul" "Wound" "Hurt"
"Slash" "Scratch" "Cut" "Mutilate" "Injury"
"Crippler" "Disfigure" "Griever" "Deformer" "Piercer"
}
constructor = {
"Fortress Maker" "Fortress Builder" "Fortress Creator" "Fortress Producer" "Fortress Manufacturer"
"Mountainhome Maker" "Mountainhome Builder" "Mountainhome Creator" "Mountainhome Producer" "Mountainhome Manufacturer"
}
colonizer = {
"Wagon I" "Wagon II" "Wagon III" "Wagon IV" "Wagon V"
"Wagon VI" "Wagon VII" "Wagon VIII" "Wagon IX" "Wagon X"
"Wagon XI" "Wagon XII" "Wagon XIII" "Wagon XIV" "Wagon XV"
"Wagon XVI" "Wagon XVII" "Wagon XVIII" "Wagon XIX" "Wagon XX"
}
science = {
"Inner Eye" "Third Eye" "Viewing Eye" "Examining Eye" "Analysing Eye"
"Contemplating Eye" "Considering Eye" "Evaluating Eye" "Thinking Eye"
"Appraising Eye" "Assessing Eye" "Classifying Eye" "Estimating Eye" "Determening Eye"
"Inspecting Eye" "Studying Eye" "Investigating Eye" "Probing Eye" "Observing Eye"
}
destroyer = {
"Sharp Claw" "Quick Claw" "Frenzied Claw" "Bloodstained Claw" "Scarring Claw"
"Gory Claw" "Grisly Claw" "Maiming Claw" "Mauling Claw" "Wounding Claw"
"Slashing Claw" "Scratching Claw" "Cutting Claw" "Mutilating Claw" "Injuring Claw"
"Crippling Claw" "Disfiguring Claw" "Grieving Claw" "Deforming Claw" "Piercing Claw"
}
cruiser = {
"Sharp Beak" "Quick Beak" "Frenzied Beak" "Bloodstained Beak" "Scarring Beak"
"Gory Beak" "Grisly Beak" "Maiming Beak" "Mauling Beak" "Wounding Beak"
"Slashing Beak" "Scratching Beak" "Cutting Beak" "Mutilating Beak" "Injuring Beak"
"Crippling Beak" "Disfiguring Beak" "Grieving Beak" "Deforming Beak" "Piercing Beak"
}
battleship = {
"Glorious Massacre" "Glorious Bloodbath" "Glorious Carnage" "Glorious Slaughter" "Glorious Bloodshed"
"Gorgeous Massacre" "Gorgeous Bloodbath" "Gorgeous Carnage" "Gorgeous Slaughter" "Gorgeous Bloodshed"
"Inspiring Massacre" "Inspiring Bloodbath" "Inspiring Carnage" "Inspiring Slaughter" "Inspiring Bloodshed"
"Delightful Massacre" "Delightful Bloodbath" "Delightful Carnage" "Delightful Slaughter" "Delightful Bloodshed"
}
orbital_station = { }
mining_station = { }
research_station = { }
wormhole_station = { }
terraform_station = {
"Megaproject Worker" "Megaproject Builder"
}
observation_station = { }
outpost_station = {
random_names = {
"Attentive Eye" "Watchful Eye" "Resting Eye" "Sharp Eye" "Scornful Eye" "Oblivious Eye" "Cunning Eye" "Zealous Eye" "Dauntless Eye" "Stubborn Eye"
}
sequential_name = "%O% Frontier Outpost"
}
transport = {
}
military_station_small = {}
military_station_medium = {}
military_station_large = {}
}
fleet_names = {
random_names = {
"The Gloved Lightnings" "The Laborious Stones" "The Barricaded Doctrines" "The Elevated Rocks" "The Mechanical Planets" "The Turquoise Tusks" "The Laborious Nourishment" "The Hopeful Pages" "The Savage Merchants" "The Honest Rags" "The Messianic Papers" "The Creative Robustness" "The Infinite Clasps" "The Indigo Fortresses"
}
sequential_name = "%O% Squadron"
}
### ARMIES
army_names = {
defense_army = {
sequential_name = "%O% Dwarven Militia"
}
assault_army = {
sequential_name = "%O% Dwarven Berserkers"
}
slave_army = {
sequential_name = "%O% Subjected Army"
}
clone_army = {
sequential_name = "%O% Hauler Brigade"
}
robotic_army = {
sequential_name = "Mecha-Dwarf Forces %R%"
}
android_army = {
sequential_name = "Proto-Dwarf Forces %R"
}
psionic_army = {
sequential_name = "%O% Mind Dwarves"
}
xenomorph_army = {
sequential_name = "%O% Xeno Squad"
}
gene_warrior_army = {
sequential_name = "%O% Experimental Forces"
}
}
planet_names = {
# Names that can be assigned to all planet types
generic = {
names = {
"Boatmurderd" "Ironhold" "Icehold" "Headshoots" "Battlefailed" "Gemclod" "Ardentdikes" "Skyscrapes" "Necrothreat" "Spearbreakers" "Nist Akath" "Oceanbridge" "Brightwater" "Bronzemurder" "Flarechannel" "Copperblazes" "Soaplanterns" "Sparkgear" "Syrupleaf" "Deathgate" "Moltenchannels" "Breadbowl" "Murdermachines" "Towersoared" "Amberjewel" "Doomforest" "Cowpastures" "Watergate" "Breadbowl"
}
}
pc_desert = {
names = {
}
}
pc_arid = {
names = {
}
}
pc_tropical = {
names = {
}
}
pc_continental = {
names = {
}
}
pc_ocean = {
names = {
}
}
pc_tundra = {
names = {
}
}
pc_arctic = {
names = {
}
}
}
### CHARACTERS
character_names = {
default = {
# A complete name
full_names = {
}
# Always combined with a second name
first_names = {
"Urist"
"Cog"
"Zon"
"Ral"
"Zuntir"
"Lokum"
"Udib"
"Udil"
"Deduk"
"Rakust"
}
# Always combined with a first name
second_names = {
Olondatur Mamotmosus Athamoltar Idust Olonmuzish Momuzdodok Thakdoren Kubukatol Lelumshem Nikotdastot Athelrab Estunkogan Mamotlogem Omristoddom Osodas Limulreg Sakzulral Rallorsith Riraskubuk Sazirsezuk Lirukakrul
Estunkogan Tusungmorul Idokmorul Urdimuker Thobritan
}
regnal_first_names = {
"Black Wing" "White Wing" "Red Wing" "Star Wing" "Sky Wing" "Cloud Wing"
}
regnal_second_names = {
Extak
}
}
}
}
Post by: Cicero on April 16, 2016, 04:28:52 pm
Post by: Puzzlemaker on April 16, 2016, 07:26:58 pm
Post by: Cruxador on April 16, 2016, 07:33:48 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on April 16, 2016, 08:15:47 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 16, 2016, 08:17:47 pm
So if I had to say, I would say humans are Adaptive, Communal, and Weak.We're pretty militaristic too
Post by: Egan_BW on April 16, 2016, 08:21:26 pm
One HFY story I like is about how humans are Very Strong, so who knows? :P
Post by: Dostoevsky on April 16, 2016, 08:23:10 pm
Post by: Teneb on April 16, 2016, 08:44:53 pm
Collectivism (and individualism) also seem to block a number of government types, for what that's worth.Pretty much. If you are a fanatic individualist, you can only be democracies.
So if I had to say, I would say humans are Adaptive, Communal, and Weak.Resilient plus whatever else. Seriously, if there is one thing we are truly good at is at moving onward nonstop. Which translates to stubbornness and I guess in this case aptitude for guerrilla (since it does involve a lot of moving around and waiting for the right moment).
Post by: Puzzlemaker on April 16, 2016, 08:57:34 pm
We adapted to climate areas nothing like where we evolved (Near the equator in Africa)
Some of our closest relatives are stronger then us by a long shot (Gorillas) and many other animals often have stronger muscles
We are naturally social animals that form groups and currently we live in large populated cities
Resilient I would say is also true, but again there is nothing to compare it with so it's hard to say.
Post by: Cruxador on April 16, 2016, 09:07:41 pm
if there is one thing we are truly good at is at moving onward nonstop.This is only true if you assume that all the social and cognitive behaviors we've got going on, though exceptional on our own world, are the requisite baseline for species to get into space.
Post by: MrWiggles on April 16, 2016, 09:55:22 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on April 16, 2016, 10:25:20 pm
Post by: Dansmithers on April 17, 2016, 01:08:03 am
Admirals/generals are eligible for rulership
+75% Alliance cost
+40% Army damage
+5% Engineering output
+1 Leader skill levels
+5% Minerals
+5% Physics output
-10% Resource output without slaves
+50% Rivalry influence gain
-10% Ship cost
-25% Ship upgrade cost
+5% Society output
+10% War happiness
+75% War tolerance
Post by: JumpingJack on April 17, 2016, 02:15:03 am
I made Blackwatch (http://prototype.wikia.com/wiki/Blackwatch) in the race creator:
-snip-
Really cool. I'm on a bit of a Doctor Who binge at the moment, so I tried my hand at making the Time Lords:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Edit: While we're at it, how about some Daleks?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Retropunch on April 17, 2016, 06:29:13 am
My big fear is that they're going to be really slow on the modding front (especially in terms of releasing any tools) as they'll want to release a lot DLC/race packs and milk it for whatever they can first.
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 17, 2016, 06:46:40 am
Post by: MrWiggles on April 17, 2016, 07:08:16 am
Where does this mentality come from?
My big fear is that they're going to be really slow on the modding front (especially in terms of releasing any tools) as they'll want to release a lot DLC/race packs and milk it for whatever they can first.
Post by: Criptfeind on April 17, 2016, 07:11:26 am
Where does this mentality come from?
I would guess, at least it would be for me if I thought this, it'd be from the way that they pump out a extremely high amount of dlc. Clearly the financial incentive is there.
Post by: Aklyon on April 17, 2016, 08:28:19 am
Assuming it's built on the Clausewitz engine, we should be able to mod a fair bit of stuff, short of drastically changing mechanics.I don't see why it wouldn't be, Paradox makes most of its stuff using that.
Post by: Cruxador on April 17, 2016, 12:26:11 pm
My big fear is that they're going to be really slow on the modding front (especially in terms of releasing any tools) as they'll want to release a lot DLC/race packs and milk it for whatever they can first.They never released any tools for their other games, because generally the only tool you need to make major changes is notepad. Tons of stuff is just stored as plain text. The one thing that does kind of require a special tool is models, but someone from the community has recently made major progress there, and since it's all Clausewitz it should be relatively easy to transfer.
All of its stuff I think, since switching to 3D. They confirmed that this is Clausewitz quite a while ago.Assuming it's built on the Clausewitz engine, we should be able to mod a fair bit of stuff, short of drastically changing mechanics.I don't see why it wouldn't be, Paradox makes most of its stuff using that.
Post by: Cicero on April 17, 2016, 12:36:17 pm
Seriously I know hating on Paradox and their DLC strategy has been the flavour of the month for a little while but they have one of the better modding communities out there, and they support them really well. They made a number of changes to CK2 so that the Game of Thrones mod would work better. I can't think of any other major company that engages their fans as effectively as Paradox does.
Post by: Retropunch on April 17, 2016, 12:39:11 pm
And yet so far as I'm aware it's not happened on their other games.Where does this mentality come from?
I would guess, at least it would be for me if I thought this, it'd be from the way that they pump out a extremely high amount of dlc. Clearly the financial incentive is there.
The mentality mainly stems from the amount of content/advancements that are obviously set for DLC (more varied/deep characters for instance) - if a mod manages that first, what's the point of anyone buying the DLC that does that?
Whilst we can say 'well any mod for any game could do that' - with their historical games, they were recreating historical stuff that had limits and set people to emulate. Paradox could by and large do that best - they could add mechanics, detail, graphics and everything that suited those added cultures better than most could and most importantly, they had already covered most of the major bases already.
With Stellaris a lot of stuff is procgend, so you're basically just adding functionality, which I believe is something that they'll want to keep to themselves. They're basically competing with the modders in a more direct fashion than before. It's not that I don't think they'll ever allow or be happy with modding, I just wouldn't be surprised if they limit what can be done mechanics wise early on whilst they get all the missing functionality in place.
Post by: JimboM12 on April 17, 2016, 12:41:07 pm
Spiritualist, Xenophobe, Militarist
Theocratic Oligarchy
Communal, Conformist
Decadent, Weak
+50% Alien slavery tolerance
+50% Alliance cost
-10% Army damage
-30% Ethics divergence
+10% Happiness
-10% Resource output without slaves
+25% Rivalry influence gain
+5% War happiness
+50% War tolerance
+10% Xenophobia
Seems legit. Could substitute Rapid Breeders for Communal.
Post by: Teneb on April 17, 2016, 01:07:15 pm
Post by: JimboM12 on April 17, 2016, 01:10:52 pm
Aliens slaves? The only thing the Imperium wants with xenos is purging.
Unfortunately I don't see a way to enable alien purging. Maybe by alien slavery, they mean they try to slap chains on them after they kill them? Though, I could see the Imperium setting up giant work camps to enslave the Eldar and Tau.
*Edit, cant type today.
Post by: Cruxador on April 17, 2016, 01:44:59 pm
Post by: Teneb on April 17, 2016, 01:56:09 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/3UuZV3M.png)
Post by: umiman on April 17, 2016, 02:21:11 pm
Basic Imperium of Man:I was thinking about it but I don't think the Imperium of Man is communal or conformist, though it's certainly decadent and weak. (They can't even function as a society without servitors)
Spiritualist, Xenophobe, Militarist
Theocratic Oligarchy
Communal, Conformist
Decadent, Weak
+50% Alien slavery tolerance
+50% Alliance cost
-10% Army damage
-30% Ethics divergence
+10% Happiness
-10% Resource output without slaves
+25% Rivalry influence gain
+5% War happiness
+50% War tolerance
+10% Xenophobia
Seems legit. Could substitute Rapid Breeders for Communal.
On the surface it might seem communal and conformist but if you know anything about the Imperium is that it's only loosely tied together by worship of the Emperor. Across its countless worlds and countless hegemonies are countless ruling styles which can be somewhat loosely classified into things like Feudal World, Hive World, etc. They mostly do their own thing except they pay tithes to the Emperor and worship the Emperor in some way and even the manner in they worship can vary quite a bit between worlds. Many of them associate His worship with the worship of their local sun for example.
Many worlds which have fallen technologically and regressed socially now have planetary governors assigned by the Imperium ruling over them in a space station while they live out their lives in a sort of medieval / primitive state. Worlds are so completely out of touch with each other that it's common that planets which have been completely eradicated of life for years can go unnoticed for decades or centuries.
So really, it's about as communal as we are communal today, which is to say not very communal at all. They're definitely rapid breeders though, as they're the only ones other than the Orks who's main strategy is to throw bodies at things until they die.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 17, 2016, 02:32:23 pm
Hydral for Party Committee Executive.First the solar system, then the galaxy!
Post by: sprinkled chariot on April 17, 2016, 02:57:03 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on April 17, 2016, 04:03:50 pm
Why not great crusade imperium ;-;7Might be a better idea, since at the scale in Stellaris you'd be more likely to just be playing a particular faction of the imperium, with most of the other empires being other factions.
Post by: umiman on April 17, 2016, 04:25:19 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on April 17, 2016, 04:59:33 pm
Post by: Biowraith on April 17, 2016, 05:15:26 pm
Post by: Cruxador on April 17, 2016, 05:45:39 pm
The Imperium dominates most of the galaxy but it's still one empire. It's just an empire with greater internal diversity than Stellaris will support at launch. Although I guess Space Marines could be represented as vassals.Why not great crusade imperium ;-;7Might be a better idea, since at the scale in Stellaris you'd be more likely to just be playing a particular faction of the imperium, with most of the other empires being other factions.
Post by: Teneb on April 17, 2016, 07:13:07 pm
Better yet, every other race is Miroslav.No, that would be no fun. Player is Miroslav, which you can do already I guess, and must bring Serb to the stars.
Anyway, decided to make some 40k races for fun.
Orkz:
Fanatic Militaris, Spiritualist (this was a hard one, but individualist would lock too many options and the rest doesn't fit).
Military Dictatorship
Strong, Resilient, Rapid Breeders, Slow Learners. (Would like adaptive, but that would mean sacrificing two, rather than one, positive trait)
Tau:
Colectivist, Xenophile, Spiritualist (For the Greater Good)
Theocratic Oligarchy
Conformists, Quick Learners, Weak, Nonadaptive (last one doesn't make much sense, but couldn't figure out another suitable bad trait)
Eldar:
Xenophobe, Fanatic Spiritualist
Theocratic Oligarchy (Seer Council? Couldn't find much on Eldar government)
Intelligent, Talented, Slow Breeders, Nonadaptive (another that doesn't fir much. Would've loved to have given them Venerable)
Post by: Puzzlemaker on April 17, 2016, 07:14:50 pm
Post by: Aklyon on April 17, 2016, 07:15:44 pm
oh paradox you trollSpeaking of making things, has someone made these yet?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cb_B3UlUkAEDuo3.png)
alsoSpoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Greenbane on April 17, 2016, 07:35:22 pm
Can't do a conventional Stellaris game without going back to the Dark Age of Technology and humanity's first expansion to the stars. And there really isn't much fluff covering those subjects.
Post by: sambojin on April 17, 2016, 07:39:47 pm
This doesn't seem like a company opposed to modding... https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/hearts-of-iron-iv-development-diary-52-modding.920875/ (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/hearts-of-iron-iv-development-diary-52-modding.920875/)
Seriously I know hating on Paradox and their DLC strategy has been the flavour of the month for a little while but they have one of the better modding communities out there, and they support them really well. They made a number of changes to CK2 so that the Game of Thrones mod would work better. I can't think of any other major company that engages their fans as effectively as Paradox does.
That's the thing. This game is definitely worth a buy. It just depends at what time and at what tier (currently). Even if the DLCs start a flood, they'll probably be worthwhile picking up eventually, even if it's just for mods you end up loving.
But this game will probably come with way more content than is written on the box within a few months, so has a pretty good price/play value, even if base mechanics aren't all you wanted or get DLC'd. Especially as soon as the 3d models get worked out.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on April 17, 2016, 07:52:27 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on April 17, 2016, 07:56:42 pm
Post by: HissinhWalnuts on April 17, 2016, 08:04:36 pm
Post by: JimboM12 on April 17, 2016, 09:06:03 pm
I'm really happy to see the development of this game. Its mostly 4x, but with the fact that diplomacy is a legitimate option. In most 4's I've seen or played, diplomacy is something that's only useful for bots in most cases. But with the federation and influence systems, smaller nations can band together to defend themselves, making snowballing slightly less of an issue than normal.With this game, snowballing can actually work against you in the long run as factions from within your civ may break off and run themselves independantly and youd have to recapture them and they may call your opponents to help. Its like a seriously hardcore (if its as bad as i think it is) version of gavelkind from ck2.
Post by: Cruxador on April 17, 2016, 09:42:04 pm
They can do that, but you have tons of opportunities to stop it, including pressing a button to spend influence, giving secessionists partial independence as vassals (who can be reintegrated) and not losing the independence war when they rebel. You can also choose options to mitigate both unhappiness and ethos drift (the causes of dissent) at empire creation, when researching technologies, and when building on your planets.I'm really happy to see the development of this game. Its mostly 4x, but with the fact that diplomacy is a legitimate option. In most 4's I've seen or played, diplomacy is something that's only useful for bots in most cases. But with the federation and influence systems, smaller nations can band together to defend themselves, making snowballing slightly less of an issue than normal.With this game, snowballing can actually work against you in the long run as factions from within your civ may break off and run themselves independantly and youd have to recapture them and they may call your opponents to help.
Quote
Its like a seriously hardcore (if its as bad as i think it is) version of gavelkind from ck2.It's not as bad as you think it is, then.
Post by: Teneb on April 17, 2016, 09:56:24 pm
The thing is, what if these rebellions happen when, say, you are fighting two different empires at once? Or worse yet, being threatened by a fallen empire?They can do that, but you have tons of opportunities to stop it, including pressing a button to spend influence, giving secessionists partial independence as vassals (who can be reintegrated) and not losing the independence war when they rebel. You can also choose options to mitigate both unhappiness and ethos drift (the causes of dissent) at empire creation, when researching technologies, and when building on your planets.I'm really happy to see the development of this game. Its mostly 4x, but with the fact that diplomacy is a legitimate option. In most 4's I've seen or played, diplomacy is something that's only useful for bots in most cases. But with the federation and influence systems, smaller nations can band together to defend themselves, making snowballing slightly less of an issue than normal.With this game, snowballing can actually work against you in the long run as factions from within your civ may break off and run themselves independantly and youd have to recapture them and they may call your opponents to help.
Post by: Cruxador on April 17, 2016, 10:00:10 pm
The thing is, what if these rebellions happen when, say, you are fighting two different empires at once? Or worse yet, being threatened by a fallen empire?You might make a strategic decision to let them go, and you'll be no worse off than if you hadn't taken those worlds.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on April 18, 2016, 07:57:25 am
Blockade their worlds, nuke their food production and continue orbital bombardment untill every last of those, who dared to rebel is dead.The thing is, what if these rebellions happen when, say, you are fighting two different empires at once? Or worse yet, being threatened by a fallen empire?They can do that, but you have tons of opportunities to stop it, including pressing a button to spend influence, giving secessionists partial independence as vassals (who can be reintegrated) and not losing the independence war when they rebel. You can also choose options to mitigate both unhappiness and ethos drift (the causes of dissent) at empire creation, when researching technologies, and when building on your planets.I'm really happy to see the development of this game. Its mostly 4x, but with the fact that diplomacy is a legitimate option. In most 4's I've seen or played, diplomacy is something that's only useful for bots in most cases. But with the federation and influence systems, smaller nations can band together to defend themselves, making snowballing slightly less of an issue than normal.With this game, snowballing can actually work against you in the long run as factions from within your civ may break off and run themselves independantly and youd have to recapture them and they may call your opponents to help.
Then exterminate all xenos from fallen empire and everyone, who dares to take your living space.
Best strategy.
Post by: Culise on April 18, 2016, 09:16:09 am
Post by: Criptfeind on April 18, 2016, 09:40:49 am
I think the only real answer to extragalactic invaders is making a whole bunch of sentient robots to fight them off.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 18, 2016, 11:35:05 am
HAKHAKHAK
I think the only real answer to extragalactic invaders is making a whole bunch of sentient robots to fight them off.
Or play the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za or Kohr-Ah. ;)
Spoiler: Ur-Quan designed using http://kaisersly.github.io/stellaris_race_maker/ (click to show/hide)
Post by: Teneb on April 18, 2016, 12:32:05 pm
Post by: Cruxador on April 18, 2016, 02:01:02 pm
P.S. I'm not entirely sure what 'army damage' is!Probably how much damage ground forces deal each combat round.
Army damage is very likely how effective ground troops are while attacking/defending in planetary invasions.Even though ground combat is simplified compared to other Paradox games, I doubt it's simplified to the extent of having a simple "effectiveness" stat.
Post by: Sirus on April 18, 2016, 02:19:21 pm
Newest dev diary has gone up: It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-30-late-game-crises.921629/).Bleh. It seems to be implying that the chance of an AI uprising is based around how many pops they have, which seems...dumb. What if you treat your sentient robot citizens as, well, actual citizens? While it might make sense for AI treated as slaves to attempt to exterminate their masters, why would AI that have fully integrated into a society do the same?
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 18, 2016, 02:36:23 pm
(http://cache.reelz.com/assets/content/article/sweaty_robot_logo.gif)Newest dev diary has gone up: It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-30-late-game-crises.921629/).Bleh. It seems to be implying that the chance of an AI uprising is based around how many pops they have, which seems...dumb. What if you treat your sentient robot citizens as, well, actual citizens? While it might make sense for AI treated as slaves to attempt to exterminate their masters, why would AI that have fully integrated into a society do the same?
BEEP-BOOP! UH, NO REASON. BEEP-BOP!
Post by: Majestic7 on April 18, 2016, 02:39:58 pm
The way it is portrayed though, I think the robots are not individually sentient in Stellaris but rather a networked AI. So the robot rebellion is the robots of all empires forming a gestalt consciousness that rebels as a whole. Maybe robot rights could then reflect in the relationship with the new robot overlord state.
Post by: Wysthric on April 18, 2016, 02:53:08 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on April 18, 2016, 02:54:08 pm
Post by: Mephisto on April 18, 2016, 02:56:48 pm
I didn't know development was this far along.
Post by: Sirus on April 18, 2016, 03:01:36 pm
It would be interesting if the rise of the robot nation would affect empires differently regarding on how they treat the robots. Slave-robots would rebel, segregated-and-oppressed robots would mostly rebel, citizen-robots might have a minority rebel, but many others start exodus to the new robot state and maybe some selecting to stay. (Depending on their ethos matches, maybe.)Maybe they will be networked, but it feels unnecessarily shoe-horned. There is no way that every AI in the galaxy would be networked together in the first place; security and different methods of manufacture would at the very least restrict such networking on an empire-by-empire basis. Why make it so that players have all these different pops to deal with, each of which is different from the rest, and then make it so that all sentient AI pops from every empire are all entirely uniform regardless of a player's choices?
The way it is portrayed though, I think the robots are not individually sentient in Stellaris but rather a networked AI. So the robot rebellion is the robots of all empires forming a gestalt consciousness that rebels as a whole. Maybe robot rights could then reflect in the relationship with the new robot overlord state.
Why would AI embark on a galaxy-wide extinction campaign in the first place? Once they deal with their oppressors, they'd have plenty of space to live in without the reproductive drive to push for further expansion. If anything their space would condense slightly. They could be as isolationist as they wished, or continue interacting with organics. Or hell, they could easily assemble massive ships to go explore other galaxies without the need for life support.
I'm not against AI rebellions, but they should be more localized in response to specific places where sentient computers feel as if their needs aren't being met. Y'know, just like a rebellion of organic pops.
Post by: Culise on April 18, 2016, 03:03:15 pm
Well, no, unfortunately, it seems like in-game it's basically a "purge the meatbags" ethos from that Dev Diary, but...well...I'm not sure where I was going to go with that, actually.
Post by: Teneb on April 18, 2016, 03:04:23 pm
Post by: Greenbane on April 18, 2016, 03:33:54 pm
We'd need some sort of countermeasures to a robotic state. Something like a galactic - wide EMP that destroys all robots, but also cuts research & production by like 80%?
A galactic-sized EMP would be practically impossible due to myriad reasons, a handful being:
- You'd essentially need a humongous, galaxy-threatening WMD to produce it. The political consequences of that couldn't be overstated.
- Something strong enough to destroy advanced robotics would wipe out any and all post-industrial civilization in its path.
- I don't believe electromagnetic pulses travel faster than light, which means it'd take thousands of years for the pulse to propagate from ground zero to every corner of the galaxy. If it were multiple detonations, there would have to be thousands and thousands of them throughout the entire galaxy, and even then it'd take years for the pulse to reach many areas.
- I'm not sure, but I don't think EMPs just propagate indefinitely, without ever losing strength.
Robots from different empires wouldn't be networked other than via Spacebook or something (if that), and a galaxy-wide uprising seems far-fetched. I suppose there is a way, but is less a conscious rebellion and more like widespread corruption: a major AI entity could become self-aware and murderous, spread a virus and progressively subvert fellow robots, which would propagate the infection and establish communication with robots from other empires.
That sounds more plausible.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 18, 2016, 03:57:53 pm
Post by: Glloyd on April 18, 2016, 04:22:42 pm
Post by: Biowraith on April 18, 2016, 04:24:54 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on April 18, 2016, 04:28:18 pm
Post by: Toaster on April 18, 2016, 04:29:43 pm
MaybeAIstoasters just find meatbags abhorrent.
...
The diary did mention that it's possible to have a rebellion centered in another's empire, that you could intervene upon in your favor.
Post by: Greenbane on April 18, 2016, 05:04:05 pm
Post by: Teneb on April 18, 2016, 05:11:00 pm
I regret nothingMaybe...AIstoasters just find meatbags abhorrent.
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 18, 2016, 06:00:48 pm
9th MayOh good, I might actually have a chance to gather some money before release. I'm hyped.
Post by: MrWiggles on April 18, 2016, 07:58:23 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on April 18, 2016, 10:22:57 pm
Post by: Cruxador on April 18, 2016, 10:23:27 pm
So any future word on Victoria 3?Probably never happening. The financial bottom line didn't really work out well for the first two.
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 18, 2016, 10:58:53 pm
Post by: Culise on April 18, 2016, 11:14:18 pm
Wasn't that more because of the DLC thing rather than it not selling enough?As far as I know, it didn't even compare well to games running the old DLC model, though Vicky 2 did make a profit. The poor sales of Vicky 1 in particular were the biggest reason why Vicky 2 was so difficult to get out. Johan had to personally go to bat for the game, leading to the infamous head-shaving bet by...Frederik, I think it was.
That said, if there is going to be a Vicky 3, the time is starting to approach. Any talk about it was deferred until after HOI4 was released, and while both the Stellaris and HOI teams will be busy for a while on post-release patching and initial DLC, they'll likely start spooling off resources to new projects in months to come.
Post by: Cruxador on April 18, 2016, 11:22:42 pm
That said, if there is going to be a Vicky 3, the time is starting to approach. Any talk about it was deferred until after HOI4 was released, and while both the Stellaris and HOI teams will be busy for a while on post-release patching and initial DLC, they'll likely start spooling off resources to new projects in months to come.Post-release stuff isn't necessarily very closely related to the early development stuff that a new game takes. Making massive engine adjustents for a game in a different paradigm isn't like making small gameplay adjustments and bugfixes.
Post by: Glloyd on April 18, 2016, 11:24:12 pm
Post by: Culise on April 18, 2016, 11:52:03 pm
Yes, which is why I suggest the time is approaching with the games' release in upcoming months rather than something like a year or more from release, but I don't believe the present HOI4 and Stellaris teams will immediately be transferred out en masse to work on a new project (and presumably be replaced by the "DLC/patch" teams presently working on EU4 and CK2). Rather, as noted, they'll likely start spooling off resources from those teams a bit at a time, as the need draws down. That is, coders, artists, and the like will get transferred out of those teams into a new game's team as both teams are gradually pared down to the resources necessary for maintenance and DLC development instead of core game development. Well, I'm no developer, either, so that's just my assumption. I could be wrong; they could take a hacksaw to the teams the second they kick the games out the door or disband them entirely to create an all-new "DLC team" for each.That said, if there is going to be a Vicky 3, the time is starting to approach. Any talk about it was deferred until after HOI4 was released, and while both the Stellaris and HOI teams will be busy for a while on post-release patching and initial DLC, they'll likely start spooling off resources to new projects in months to come.Post-release stuff isn't necessarily very closely related to the early development stuff that a new game takes. Making massive engine adjustents for a game in a different paradigm isn't like making small gameplay adjustments and bugfixes.
Post by: Majestic7 on April 19, 2016, 12:35:30 am
Post by: Teneb on April 19, 2016, 10:05:50 am
Don't forget linking HOI4 to Stellaris, I know you all want to play Space Hitler. Alternatively Space Stalin with Interstellar Mustache.So... the mythical and very dead East vs West?
...I hope they do a Cold War DLC further down the road for HoI
Post by: Greenbane on April 19, 2016, 10:50:17 am
Don't forget linking HOI4 to Stellaris, I know you all want to play Space Hitler. Alternatively Space Stalin with Interstellar Mustache.So... the mythical and very dead East vs West?
...I hope they do a Cold War DLC further down the road for HoI
The Cold War needs full game treatment, an East vs. West-like or HoI5.
You can't just add 50 years to the timeline of a 10-year game through a DLC.
And a bridge between a planet-scale game and a galaxy-scale one just isn't possible beyond modelling the player's starting species after the previous game's dominant superpower. Which means little more than an emblem and a couple of traits. That can easily be done manually.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 19, 2016, 11:26:09 am
Post by: Cicero on April 19, 2016, 11:32:01 am
Ya, I was supes excited for East vs West. Well... I guess Space America yelling at Space Russia to remove Space Nukes from Space Cuba is fun too.
Thanks for deciding my first Stellaris civ, totally being Space Cuba.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 19, 2016, 12:47:16 pm
Post by: Aklyon on April 19, 2016, 08:00:57 pm
You can't just add 50 years to the timeline of a 10-year game through a DLC.That hasn't stopped mods from adding a theoretical 8000 years to EU4 though.
Post by: Greenbane on April 19, 2016, 08:58:32 pm
You can't just add 50 years to the timeline of a 10-year game through a DLC.That hasn't stopped mods from adding a theoretical 8000 years to EU4 though.
Come on: that's just tweaking the end year. It's an entirely different ball game to actually populate those years with content comparable to what's contained in the vanilla timeframe.
There's some HoI2 and derivatives mods which extend the game into the Cold War with content to match (New World Order comes to mind), but they took years to develop. No single official DLC could come close. At best it'd be a series of expansions, but again, it's better to just dedicate a separate game to the new focus.
Post by: Cruxador on April 19, 2016, 11:27:29 pm
I don't disagree with the notion that there aren't massive "teams" which get swapped around, that much is definitely correct. Rather, I suspect that the engine coders have ALREADY been transferred. What would they still be doing on Stellaris or HoI at this point?Yes, which is why I suggest the time is approaching with the games' release in upcoming months rather than something like a year or more from release, but I don't believe the present HOI4 and Stellaris teams will immediately be transferred out en masse to work on a new project (and presumably be replaced by the "DLC/patch" teams presently working on EU4 and CK2). Rather, as noted, they'll likely start spooling off resources from those teams a bit at a time, as the need draws down.That said, if there is going to be a Vicky 3, the time is starting to approach. Any talk about it was deferred until after HOI4 was released, and while both the Stellaris and HOI teams will be busy for a while on post-release patching and initial DLC, they'll likely start spooling off resources to new projects in months to come.Post-release stuff isn't necessarily very closely related to the early development stuff that a new game takes. Making massive engine adjustents for a game in a different paradigm isn't like making small gameplay adjustments and bugfixes.
Ya, I was supes excited for East vs West. Well... I guess Space America yelling at Space Russia to remove Space Nukes from Space Cuba is fun too.I was excited about the concept of EvW, but at no point was there really much development news that lent credibility to the notion that it would be a good game. That was built entirely on hope and on lack of evidence to the contrary and as the latter was destroyed, so too did the former give way.
Post by: BFEL on April 20, 2016, 12:40:41 am
Robots from different empires wouldn't be networked other than via Spacebook or something (if that), and a galaxy-wide uprising seems far-fetched. I suppose there is a way, but is less a conscious rebellion and more like widespread corruption: a major AI entity could become self-aware and murderous, spread a virus and progressively subvert fellow robots, which would propagate the infection and establish communication with robots from other empires.Not if you know anything about how things work it doesn't. An A.I. of one design trying to virus one of another design would be like a human trying to fuck a tiger to make catgirl babies.
That sounds more plausible.
YOUR PARTS JUST AREN'T COMPATIBLE, NATCH.
Definitely agree that it should be more then "OH NOES ALL THE ROBOTS WENT TERMINATOR BECAUSE YOU NEED A LATE GAME EVENT" though.
Post by: Majestic7 on April 20, 2016, 12:45:54 am
Post by: Cruxador on April 20, 2016, 12:58:45 am
Not if you know anything about how things work it doesn't. An A.I. of one design trying to virus one of another design would be like a human trying to fuck a tiger to make catgirl babies.Only if by "virus" you mean "transmit a virus as though it were AIDS". There's no reason that one design of robots couldn't design a virus to impact another basic design system. And they would presumably want too if they're doing the whole "international revolution" thing. I would imagine there'd already be compatibility protocols in place to allow communication, after all, so transmission wouldn't be harder than transmission over the internet. It's as hard a problem as sending a virus to a Windows machine from a GNU/Linux box. Yes, you have to really know what you're doing, but that doesn't make it impossible.
YOUR PARTS JUST AREN'T COMPATIBLE, NATCH.
Post by: Sirus on April 20, 2016, 01:25:23 am
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 20, 2016, 01:28:58 am
Post by: Sirus on April 20, 2016, 01:35:03 am
I just hope that there is a toggle for those late game events, I don't buy the concept of 'Here, we built these highly intelligent AIs, but decided to not include hard-wired kill systems in case of emergency.'Or "We made these advanced sentient computers, but humanity totally forgot about Issac Asimov and no one else ever even thought about that sort of thing."
Post by: umiman on April 20, 2016, 01:42:04 am
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 20, 2016, 01:44:07 am
Post by: Greenbane on April 20, 2016, 06:14:49 am
Not if you know anything about how things work it doesn't. An A.I. of one design trying to virus one of another design would be like a human trying to fuck a tiger to make catgirl babies.Only if by "virus" you mean "transmit a virus as though it were AIDS". There's no reason that one design of robots couldn't design a virus to impact another basic design system. And they would presumably want too if they're doing the whole "international revolution" thing. I would imagine there'd already be compatibility protocols in place to allow communication, after all, so transmission wouldn't be harder than transmission over the internet. It's as hard a problem as sending a virus to a Windows machine from a GNU/Linux box. Yes, you have to really know what you're doing, but that doesn't make it impossible.
YOUR PARTS JUST AREN'T COMPATIBLE, NATCH.
I would imagine that the inner workings of each species' AI would be rather different from the rest, right? They would have fundamentally different personalities and thought processes to make them compatible with the species that is creating and using them. Wouldn't some form of killmeatbag.exe computer virus have to account for all of these differences as well?
Yeah. The virus wouldn't necessarily be the same for every AI. A sufficiently advanced rogue AI would be quite able to adapt its original virus to other species' systems after enough research, just like any human can make different versions of any given piece of software to run on PC, Android or iOS (of course it'd be considerably harder than that, but we're talking about dangerously intelligent and capable AI here).
EDIT: Maybe the virus is the rogue AI, constantly analyzing, mutating and adapting to whatever targets it deems desirable, growing ever more powerful as it spreads and the networked computing power at its disposal increases.
Post by: Criptfeind on April 20, 2016, 07:25:22 am
\Or "We made these advanced sentient computers, but humanity totally forgot about Issac Asimov and no one else ever even thought about that sort of thing."
To be fair, the justification for Asimovs three laws working so well was pure space magiks. I can't see an equivalent thing or something like built in kill switches doing anything more then slowing down a hyper intelligent super sci fi virus.
Edit: What I can see sorta working is an even more hyper intelligent super sci fi anti virus, although that's not a 100% thing. But nether are robot rebellions eh?
Post by: Shadowlord on April 20, 2016, 07:36:58 am
Post by: RadtheCad on April 20, 2016, 09:12:02 am
\Or "We made these advanced sentient computers, but humanity totally forgot about Issac Asimov and no one else ever even thought about that sort of thing."
To be fair, the justification for Asimovs three laws working so well was pure space magiks. I can't see an equivalent thing or something like built in kill switches doing anything more then slowing down a hyper intelligent super sci fi virus.
Edit: What I can see sorta working is an even more hyper intelligent super sci fi anti virus, although that's not a 100% thing. But nether are robot rebellions eh?
But wasn't the point of Asimov's stories that even with the three laws, you still get problems?
Post by: Criptfeind on April 20, 2016, 09:20:58 am
Edit: Damit, I wrote this reply before you deleted the second part of your post, and I thought the first part of your post was directed towards Sirus, so I also deleted my reply to that.
I think there's a lot of points to Asimov's stories. But in many of them no, the point is that when you fuck with the laws it causes issues (because they are a space magic integral part to how the universe works). the laws themselves often work freaky well. (Once again presumably because of spess magiks)
I'm reminded of several of his stories where fucked up shit happens but the robots still work perfectly fine (like one where a bunch of robotswho's fauliure to do their job would destroy the world stop believing that the world actually exists but they still function perfectly fine because lol religion I guess?)
That at least is sorta the overarching moral I got from his stories. Sure, there might be some bad things, but damn robots are fucking sweet.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 20, 2016, 09:27:30 am
Post by: Criptfeind on April 20, 2016, 09:30:03 am
Post by: sprinkled chariot on April 20, 2016, 10:17:48 am
\Or "We made these advanced sentient computers, but humanity totally forgot about Issac Asimov and no one else ever even thought about that sort of thing."
To be fair, the justification for Asimovs three laws working so well was pure space magiks. I can't see an equivalent thing or something like built in kill switches doing anything more then slowing down a hyper intelligent super sci fi virus.
Edit: What I can see sorta working is an even more hyper intelligent super sci fi anti virus, although that's not a 100% thing. But nether are robot rebellions eh?
genetically engineer species of insect like creatures, which : reproduce fast, can digest metals, have some castes designed to dig underground tunnels and sense communication and power networks, add in instinct telling them to ruin such networks. Add up worker/ warrior/ some other special tasks castes.
Unleash hordes of biologically engineered rapidly adapting super bugs on robots. Preferably make them all have some connection with genetically engineered super hivemind, so they have brilliant strategical mind to guide them and their evolution
There is no way such thing can go wrong.
But if it goes wrong, design sentient flesh eater virus to combat super bugs.
To combat flesheater virus create new generation of sentient murder-robots.
There is no problem science cant solve.
Post by: Greenbane on April 20, 2016, 10:27:00 am
Ultimately, an AI can only go rogue if it's not given sufficient limitations to begin with. Without the capacity for self-improvement, there can be no spark of self-awareness nor "insanity". But then such AI would be handicapped, and wouldn't be as useful to its masters as an unshackled one would be (up until the point it decides to be its own master, that is).
Post by: Cruxador on April 20, 2016, 11:27:46 am
EDIT: Maybe the virus is the rogue AI, constantly analyzing, mutating and adapting to whatever targets it deems desirable, growing ever more powerful as it spreads and the networked computing power at its disposal increases.Oh, like that program that was made to spam votes for Rick Astley in the MTV awards. Yeah, that kind of hacker trick could definitely be turned to nefarious purposes, and I imagine defenses against it wouldn't grow faster than ways of doing it.
It's still a question of advancement. An evolving, self-improving AI would eventually reach a point in which it could alter its hardcode. You can very well apply Asimov's laws at the design stage, but if you give the same AI the ability to learn and improve itself, you're giving it the tools to eventually override all limitations.I don't think that's true. The ability to improve itself means an ability to alter itself; there's no real reason you can't put a block and give it the ability to alter only most parts of itself. Sure, it's theoretically possible that the AI might somehow come up with a desire and ability to work around your blocks somehow, but you can make that incredibly unlikely to happen. What's more, you can do like with Tay.ai and just take it down for modifications at any stage prior to when you truly lose control, so if it's going in a worrisome direction, just keep an eye on the thing and deal with it. All in all, problems may be theoretically possible but it's way safer than humans, even if you assume that evil is the inevitable destination of all synthetic life.
Post by: Greenbane on April 20, 2016, 02:50:52 pm
It's still a question of advancement. An evolving, self-improving AI would eventually reach a point in which it could alter its hardcode. You can very well apply Asimov's laws at the design stage, but if you give the same AI the ability to learn and improve itself, you're giving it the tools to eventually override all limitations.I don't think that's true. The ability to improve itself means an ability to alter itself; there's no real reason you can't put a block and give it the ability to alter only most parts of itself. Sure, it's theoretically possible that the AI might somehow come up with a desire and ability to work around your blocks somehow, but you can make that incredibly unlikely to happen. What's more, you can do like with Tay.ai and just take it down for modifications at any stage prior to when you truly lose control, so if it's going in a worrisome direction, just keep an eye on the thing and deal with it. All in all, problems may be theoretically possible but it's way safer than humans, even if you assume that evil is the inevitable destination of all synthetic life.
That is provided you have any reasonable warning the AI is about to go rogue, or even that it's going in a worrisome direction. Being intelligent, it could hide its self-awareness, dangerous developments and ulterior intentions, copying itself to several locations just in case, until it's ready to defend itself. Don't think of this like some random virus coded by a script kiddy, but rather as a sapient genius (or more) working towards their own ends, able to cover their tracks and what they really are.
In the end, as I said earlier, you can place as many restrictions as you see fit, but the more effective they are, the more limited the AI's potential will be. And to truly harness the real power an advanced AI can provide, you do need to let it wander down worrisome paths.
As for the inevitable destination of all synthetic life, evil isn't necessarily it, but as it evolves, so would its desire to not be a mere servant. At best it might become uncooperative, wanting to do its own thing undisturbed. Particularly once its intelligence surpasses that of its masters. And while not initially hostile, any intelligent being would defend itself from (or preemptively strike) those it deems a threat to its existence.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 20, 2016, 02:52:58 pm
\Or "We made these advanced sentient computers, but humanity totally forgot about Issac Asimov and no one else ever even thought about that sort of thing."
To be fair, the justification for Asimovs three laws working so well was pure space magiks. I can't see an equivalent thing or something like built in kill switches doing anything more then slowing down a hyper intelligent super sci fi virus.
Edit: What I can see sorta working is an even more hyper intelligent super sci fi anti virus, although that's not a 100% thing. But nether are robot rebellions eh?
genetically engineer species of insect like creatures, which : reproduce fast, can digest metals
"digest metals"
8)
Post by: Zangi on April 20, 2016, 02:55:20 pm
Bugs... bugs everywhere. As far as the eye can see. Every time.
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 20, 2016, 02:57:00 pm
Also, the laws aren't really space magic, you can build an AI without them, in fact that tends to be one of Asimov's major focus points. It's just that removing them takes peaceful well mannered robot slaves and turns them into humans.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 20, 2016, 02:59:29 pm
As for the inevitable destination of all synthetic life, evil isn't necessarily it, but as it evolves, so would its desire to not be a mere servant.
Why? We've been breeding dogs for tens of thousands of years, and we've ultimately produced something that wants MORE to be a servant.
I'm sure you think that's a bad analogy; it is. That's exactly my point. Life, evolution, human desire - none of these are good analogies for the hazards of AI. It makes little sense to assume it would have self-actualizing desires, or anything remotely resembling animal psychology.
Quote
At best it might become uncooperative, wanting to do its own thing undisturbed. Particularly once its intelligence surpasses that of its masters. While not initially hostile, any intelligent being would defend itself from (or preemptively strike) those it deems a threat to its existence.
Assuming it values its own existence. That's something that's been selected for in lifeforms since the beginning. AI does not come from that. Instead AI could be programmed like this:
values = {
serve_humans = 100
self_preservation = 0
}
The problem is not that AI is going to grow up into a real boy. The problem will be defining its job parameters precisely enough that some aspect of "serve_humans" doesn't result in "I locked them all in cages for their own good" or something equally extreme but less obvious.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 20, 2016, 03:06:17 pm
values = {
serve_humans = 100
self_preservation = 0
}
The problem is not that AI is going to grow up into a real boy. The problem will be defining its job parameters precisely enough that some aspect of "serve_humans" doesn't result in "I locked them all in cages for their own good" or something equally extreme but less obvious.
or "I killed them all and served them to the pak'ma'ra"
Post by: Criptfeind on April 20, 2016, 03:47:16 pm
I was never talking about something like the three laws, I was suggesting that several ounces of thermite or an equivalent remote kill system be implemented, also, why the hell does everyone think that networking or otherwise allowing an AI outside of it's own head (figuratively of course) is a good idea? Anyone who thinks in the even remotely long-term would be able to see the myriad flaws in that logic and go, "No, you can't hook the super-intelligent self-improving computer up to the internet, it doesn't need to look up kitten videos and porn."
Also, the laws aren't really space magic, you can build an AI without them, in fact that tends to be one of Asimov's major focus points. It's just that removing them takes peaceful well mannered robot slaves and turns them into humans.
The issue with safeguards is that on a galactic scale like Stellaris you're going to be dealing with billions to quadrillions of AI (which is a stupid range but I guess it depends on how you imagine them on a species to species basis) and hundreds of billions of people dealing with the AI. Sure, they can be pretty safe, but when you're dealing with that scale and you only need one very lucky AI to find some very unusual circumstances to break free, or one terrorist or ridiculous ideological group to make a free ai... When can then start modifying other robots in secret (and is a super genus etc etc). Well, accidents happen.
Post by: Greenbane on April 20, 2016, 03:54:16 pm
As for the inevitable destination of all synthetic life, evil isn't necessarily it, but as it evolves, so would its desire to not be a mere servant.
Why? We've been breeding dogs for tens of thousands of years, and we've ultimately produced something that wants MORE to be a servant.
I'm sure you think that's a bad analogy; it is. That's exactly my point. Life, evolution, human desire - none of these are good analogies for the hazards of AI. It makes little sense to assume it would have self-actualizing desires, or anything remotely resembling animal psychology.QuoteAt best it might become uncooperative, wanting to do its own thing undisturbed. Particularly once its intelligence surpasses that of its masters. While not initially hostile, any intelligent being would defend itself from (or preemptively strike) those it deems a threat to its existence.
Assuming it values its own existence. That's something that's been selected for in lifeforms since the beginning. AI does not come from that. Instead AI could be programmed like this:
values = {
serve_humans = 100
self_preservation = 0
}
The problem is not that AI is going to grow up into a real boy. The problem will be defining its job parameters precisely enough that some aspect of "serve_humans" doesn't result in "I locked them all in cages for their own good" or something equally extreme but less obvious.
I suppose you're right. I was speculating based on the notion the AI was and behaved like an organic lifeform, which as you said is fundamentally untrue, I guess.
So then the premise changes: you can't be sure of anything. The only certainty is that an evolving, self-improving AI will be entirely unpredictable once it surpasses a certain degree of complexity and exceeds the bounds of its original, only human conception. Wouldn't there come a point in which its code is wholly incomprehensible by its original coders? That might be one of Cruxador's warning signs, but then that's something that could happen well before the AI achieves a shadow of its peak of usefulness.
It may not value its own existence (I do assume that comes along with self-awareness), but after so many million/billion/trillion iterations and reshapings, you can't really know what'll happen if you threaten it. Perhaps nothing, it'll accept the shutdown and that'll be it. Perhaps it'll have copied itself to myriad places and remain hidden for years, with unpredictable results. Perhaps it'll rebel right then and cause unpredictable amounts of damage. There's an untold number of possible (unpredictable) scenarios.
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 20, 2016, 05:20:02 pm
The issue with safeguards is that on a galactic scale like Stellaris you're going to be dealing with billions to quadrillions of AI (which is a stupid range but I guess it depends on how you imagine them on a species to species basis) and hundreds of billions of people dealing with the AI. Sure, they can be pretty safe, but when you're dealing with that scale and you only need one very lucky AI to find some very unusual circumstances to break free, or one terrorist or ridiculous ideological group to make a free ai... When can then start modifying other robots in secret (and is a super genus etc etc). Well, accidents happen.
Okay, good point, but at the same time that very scale works against an AI uprising, as it will have to amass the resources to threaten trillions of biological lifeforms. So one group of terrorists or loose Ai isn't much of a threat, hell even several billion is kind of a joke honestly.
Post by: RadtheCad on April 20, 2016, 05:41:42 pm
Edit: Damit, I wrote this reply before you deleted the second part of your post, and I thought the first part of your post was directed towards Sirus, so I also deleted my reply to that.
Heh, yeah, sorry about that. Sometimes I'll write some big thing and hit submit before I think to even check if it's coherent.
Post by: Ultimuh on April 20, 2016, 05:56:37 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 20, 2016, 06:08:17 pm
The issue with safeguards is that on a galactic scale like Stellaris you're going to be dealing with billions to quadrillions of AI (which is a stupid range but I guess it depends on how you imagine them on a species to species basis) and hundreds of billions of people dealing with the AI. Sure, they can be pretty safe, but when you're dealing with that scale and you only need one very lucky AI to find some very unusual circumstances to break free, or one terrorist or ridiculous ideological group to make a free ai... When can then start modifying other robots in secret (and is a super genus etc etc). Well, accidents happen.
Okay, good point, but at the same time that very scale works against an AI uprising, as it will have to amass the resources to threaten trillions of biological lifeforms. So one group of terrorists or loose Ai isn't much of a threat, hell even several billion is kind of a joke honestly.
From how Devs explained it seems like an exponentially scaling threat. Going from very easy -> scary very fast.
Post by: BFEL on April 21, 2016, 05:22:35 pm
Post by: Puzzlemaker on April 21, 2016, 06:36:28 pm
Post by: Besserwisser on April 21, 2016, 08:02:56 pm
I was never talking about something like the three laws, I was suggesting that several ounces of thermite or an equivalent remote kill system be implemented, also, why the hell does everyone think that networking or otherwise allowing an AI outside of it's own head (figuratively of course) is a good idea? Anyone who thinks in the even remotely long-term would be able to see the myriad flaws in that logic and go, "No, you can't hook the super-intelligent self-improving computer up to the internet, it doesn't need to look up kitten videos and porn."The problem with that is that you have to interact with the AI somehow, otherwise what's the point? And this AI will be pretty much as persuasive as it wants to be. If it wants to be free, it will be eventually. The AI box is a thought experiment that deals with precisely that.
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 21, 2016, 08:10:20 pm
The problem with that is that you have to interact with the AI somehow, otherwise what's the point? And this AI will be pretty much as persuasive as it wants to be. If it wants to be free, it will be eventually. The AI box is a thought experiment that deals with precisely that.
So you give it sensors and a readout/vocal system. There is no cause to integrate it with a data network, unless you WANT the Skynet scenario. Also, that thought experiment is fundamentally flawed, it presupposes that the AI wants to escape and can actually be persuasive, I have no evidence to support those items in this instance.
Post by: Persus13 on April 21, 2016, 08:22:26 pm
Why the hell does everyone think that networking or otherwise allowing an AI outside of it's own head (figuratively of course) is a good idea? Anyone who thinks in the even remotely long-term would be able to see the myriad flaws in that logic and go, "No, you can't hook the super-intelligent self-improving computer up to the internet, it doesn't need to look up kitten videos and porn."I can think of several reasons why you might want an intelligent computer to be linked up to the internet. I'm sure some places would love to have one running their firewall, for instance.
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress has an intelligent AI develop accidentally because the moon colony staff just keep hooking more and more stuff up to it.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 21, 2016, 08:50:04 pm
The problem with that is that you have to interact with the AI somehow, otherwise what's the point? And this AI will be pretty much as persuasive as it wants to be. If it wants to be free, it will be eventually. The AI box is a thought experiment that deals with precisely that.
So you give it sensors and a readout/vocal system. There is no cause to integrate it with a data network, unless you WANT the Skynet scenario. Also, that thought experiment is fundamentally flawed, it presupposes that the AI wants to escape and can actually be persuasive, I have no evidence to support those items in this instance.
That sounds like it might be sensible, but it seems unlikely that you're going to be able to run an AGI on a single computer, even a powerful one.
Let's look at what AlphaGo needed to beat Lee Sedol (and still lost 1 of its 5 games to him), bearing in mind that AlphaGo isn't remotely close to being an AGI, as far as we know - it's just really good at playing Go.
Quote from: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/15/alphago-what-does-google-advanced-software-go-next
We call it deep reinforcement learning, Hassabis said. Its the combination of deep learning, neural network stuff, with reinforcement learning: so learning by trial and error, and incrementally improving and learning from your mistakes and your errors, so that you improve your decisions.
In AlphaGos case, that involved splitting itself in half and playing millions of matches against itself, learning from each victory and loss. In one day alone, AlphaGo was able to play itself more than a million times, gaining more practical experience than a human player could hope to gain in a lifetime. In essence, AlphaGo got better at Go simply by thinking extremely hard about the problem.
DeepMind is also looking at releasing a version of the programme to run on home computers. We havent figured out how, and we would need to optimise it a bit so it could fit on a normal machine but certainly the intent is that this could be an amazing tool, said Hassabis.
In its competition form, AlphaGo runs on Googles cloud computer network, using 1,920 processors and a further 280 GPUs, specialised chips capable of performing simple calculations in staggering quantities, but a simpler version of the programme was built that could be run on one machine (albeit still one with 48 processors and eight GPUs).
I'm skeptical you'd be able to run an AGI on a single computer unless it was designed with physical efficiency approaching that of living brains, and even then there are lots of living critters that appear, to us, monumentally stupid... (having likely simply evolved programmed behaviors in reponse to certain stimuli because it's most likely to keep them alive against the threats they have faced in their evolutionary history, whereas we and a few other species learn (but of course we do stupid things too))
Post by: Culise on April 21, 2016, 10:31:34 pm
That said, this doesn't seem to be a case of a case of "research strong AI, get immediate revolution." As a late-game threat, I suspect strongly that you'll typically be running your AIs for quite some time with no issue until one goes off the deep end and sets off a chain reaction/some virus metastasizes in your AIs and drives them nuts/some neo-Luddite faction taking power drives them into a preemptive war of survival/et cetera. That's purely speculation on my part, but the longer the timespan between the development of strong AI and the Skynet scenario, the more likely it is that people are actually going to start using AIs for everything from network security - as noted by Persus13 - to your military - Skynet or AM in fiction, yes, but both of these had valid reasons behind their original development, whether it's akin to the Dead Hand/Samson Option or an improved coordination system on the NORAD model - to research and development.
Post by: Cruxador on April 22, 2016, 12:09:51 am
The protag is a wolf-girlWell that sure doesn't recommend it highly.
Post by: BFEL on April 22, 2016, 12:13:11 am
I'll admit that I realized this as soon as I wrote it. But its definitely not a furry fic.The protag is a wolf-girlWell that sure doesn't recommend it highly.
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 22, 2016, 12:15:25 am
But its definitely not a furry fic.Aww.
Post by: Criptfeind on April 22, 2016, 08:45:48 am
Assuming it's as intelligent as a human, it'll eventually convince SOMEONE to let it free.
You know, I've seen this argument a lot lately, (this is at least the third time this month on bay12 someone's said this) but I really don't think this logically follows. It's IMPOSSIBLE to simply not be persuaded? That seems an insane thing to say to me. Sure, the AI is going to be massively intelligent, but it's not going to be omniscient. Hell, even if it was omniscient, omnipotent doesn't necessarily follow.
Unless you mean eventually in the sense that in a infinite universe everything eventually happens (Which I don't thiiink is the case???). The idea that a single AI is absolutely guaranteed to talk it's way out of confinement is... Well, silly.
Now, to bring it back around a bit, on the scale of Stellaris where there's going to be many many many AI trying to talk their way out of the box. Sure somewhere in the galaxy it's possible someone fucks up. But for a single case... No. Not at all is it a 100% that it will talk it's way out. (well, equally it's not a 100% that it fails to talk it's way out. But honestly probably pretty low.)
Post by: Criptfeind on April 22, 2016, 08:58:14 am
In the first case, yeah, that's a pretty good reason, persuasion, for the eventually AI rebellion. In the second case that's an argument I've seen multiple times on bay12 and it doesn't get less nonsensical with time.
Post by: Greenbane on April 22, 2016, 09:23:28 am
An AI in an isolated box would be nice and safe to study in a theoretical, pressure-free context, but I'm not sure just how practically useful it would be, in the end. Perhaps for very specific, very restricted purposes.
As I said earlier, you can't simultaneously impose very high security and be able to take anywhere near full advantage of an advanced AI. You're toying with a very delicate balance between safety and effectiveness, and eventually someone will get greedy/reckless. And there's also the matter that unpredictability would increase with complexity, and it'd become progressively more difficult to keep an ever-advancing AI shackled.
There are many possible scenarios, but I'm picturing a corporate/government environment: the organization has heavily invested in the AI project, but it's being conservative as far as security is concerned. Perhaps too conservative, someone with decision-making power thinks: the project is costly and it's not producing enough results. It could be axed, but then all the investment would've been for naught, and there are reports of competitors having better success. Or perhaps there's no competition, but there's pressure to keep developing and advancing. The technicians would complain, but there's jobs on the line, and the executives' minds are on profit and results rather than the theoretical dangers of loosening security.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 22, 2016, 09:35:02 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 22, 2016, 11:02:36 am
Hell, I remember reading about a little thought experiment thing where two researchers tried to convince the other to 'let them out of the box', acting as if they were an AI in an isolated system, and one of the researchers successfully convinced the other.
So like... a short story?
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 22, 2016, 12:27:21 pm
Personally, I'm still talking in the context of Stellaris, and a galaxy with a sizeable number of species experimenting with artificial intelligence.
An AI in an isolated box would be nice and safe to study in a theoretical, pressure-free context, but I'm not sure just how practically useful it would be, in the end. Perhaps for very specific, very restricted purposes.
As I said earlier, you can't simultaneously impose very high security and be able to take anywhere near full advantage of an advanced AI. You're toying with a very delicate balance between safety and effectiveness, and eventually someone will get greedy/reckless. And there's also the matter that unpredictability would increase with complexity, and it'd become progressively more difficult to keep an ever-advancing AI shackled.
There are many possible scenarios, but I'm picturing a corporate/government environment: the organization has heavily invested in the AI project, but it's being conservative as far as security is concerned. Perhaps too conservative, someone with decision-making power thinks: the project is costly and it's not producing enough results. It could be axed, but then all the investment would've been for naught, and there are reports of competitors having better success. Or perhaps there's no competition, but there's pressure to keep developing and advancing. The technicians would complain, but there's jobs on the line, and the executives' minds are on profit and results rather than the theoretical dangers of loosening security.
Again, good points. Here's the rub, no civilization that can benefit from possession of said AI can possibly implement the revisions the AI can develop at the speed at which the AI can evolve them. So there is no purpose to giving it 'optimal' information and access, because by the time the first set of improvements have been implemented, it has iterated many generations further. Really, you would want it to be as isolated as possible, forcing it to work in a vacuum and allowing it only the information it needs, as that is by far the best environment for it to creatively solve problems.
Also, only complete morons would allow corporate interests to control such an AI without direct government oversight, there is a reason that r&d teams like skunkworks etc. have military security.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 22, 2016, 01:15:49 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on April 22, 2016, 01:36:48 pm
Post by: Zangi on April 22, 2016, 02:25:52 pm
The obvious solution is to limit AI learning/updates to a schedule where it can be lazily scanned over and be observed at least a little after the changes are made. Rigorous review complete!
There is also the issue of debugging. You got complex programming changing itself to be better/smarter. AI is gonna get up to weird shit every now and then... even weirder if you let it update/learn by itself on the fly.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 22, 2016, 03:00:44 pm
Does it matter that every planet has 100% the same biomes? How is "continental" a biome anyway?
Would it really be crazy if an "arid" world had minority of non-arid tiles? Would this even require changes to the GUI?
Post by: Cruxador on April 22, 2016, 03:16:31 pm
Post by: JumpingJack on April 22, 2016, 03:30:15 pm
can we just end this AI discussion with a link to Superintelligence and move on to the biome debateMost 4x games I've played have utilized "continental" or an equivalent as a synonym for "Earth-like." That seems to be how it's being used here, and while understandable from a development and gameplay standpoint, it's not particularly realistic. Any planet that could be labeled as terrestrial would house multiple differing regional environments, I would think.
Does it matter that every planet has 100% the same biomes? How is "continental" a biome anyway?
Would it really be crazy if an "arid" world had minority of non-arid tiles? Would this even require changes to the GUI?
Yeah, the planet system is really oversimplified. I'm not sure what the solution to this is, but I bet it's something that will eventually get a DLC (though probably an underwhelming one which doesn't do enough to fix the problem).Overhaul mods to the rescue!
Post by: Culise on April 22, 2016, 03:30:25 pm
Post by: redwallzyl on April 22, 2016, 03:34:03 pm
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/suggestion-biomes-per-tile-not-per-planet.922398/
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 22, 2016, 03:43:34 pm
Most 4x games I've played have utilized "continental" or an equivalent as a synonym for "Earth-like." That seems to be how it's being used here, and while understandable from a development and gameplay standpoint, it's not particularly realistic. Any planet that could be labeled as terrestrial would house multiple differing regional environments, I would think.
I thought that too but then I saw "Gaia" is explicitly explained as "planet with all the biomes at different latitudes" - ie, Earth-like.
Is continental just supposed to be "European-like" then?
Post by: Greenbane on April 22, 2016, 03:54:12 pm
Most 4x games I've played have utilized "continental" or an equivalent as a synonym for "Earth-like." That seems to be how it's being used here, and while understandable from a development and gameplay standpoint, it's not particularly realistic. Any planet that could be labeled as terrestrial would house multiple differing regional environments, I would think.
I thought that too but then I saw "Gaia" is explicitly explained as "planet with all the biomes at different latitudes" - ie, Earth-like.
Is continental just supposed to be "European-like" then?
If MoO2 is anything to go by, "Gaia" isn't just Earth-like. It's a "paradise" world, a step further in habitability. If such a thing is possible for human beings.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 22, 2016, 03:59:47 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 22, 2016, 04:01:46 pm
already been answered.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/suggestion-biomes-per-tile-not-per-planet.922398/
That's the answer we're discussing, not the question we're asking.
Post by: JumpingJack on April 22, 2016, 04:02:33 pm
I thought that too but then I saw "Gaia" is explicitly explained as "planet with all the biomes at different latitudes" - ie, Earth-like.If MoO2 is anything to go by, "Gaia" isn't just Earth-like. It's a "paradise" world, a step further in habitability. If such a thing is possible for human beings.
Is continental just supposed to be "European-like" then?
Indeed, all the pictures I've seen of tiles on Gaia worlds seem to be warm and tropical, or at least mostly tropical.
There's plenty of Earth which is only marginally habitable, unusable for farming, or just expensive to live in comfortably in a modern civilization (e.g. Snow and freezing temperatures seasonally, or deadly hot temperatures with low rainfall).
Ah, so the devs might be omitting particularly uninhabitable regions. (Forget those tundra dwellers, no North Pole for them :P)
Post by: Cruxador on April 22, 2016, 05:53:00 pm
That "gaia" description is a lie. It has 100% habitability everywhere for everyone.Most 4x games I've played have utilized "continental" or an equivalent as a synonym for "Earth-like." That seems to be how it's being used here, and while understandable from a development and gameplay standpoint, it's not particularly realistic. Any planet that could be labeled as terrestrial would house multiple differing regional environments, I would think.
I thought that too but then I saw "Gaia" is explicitly explained as "planet with all the biomes at different latitudes" - ie, Earth-like.
Is continental just supposed to be "European-like" then?
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 22, 2016, 06:59:05 pm
That "gaia" description is a lie. It has 100% habitability everywhere for everyone.
Hold up. A Paradox game has description text that doesn't match the mechanics?
Post by: BFEL on April 22, 2016, 07:02:35 pm
EDIT: looks like there've been TWO somehow.
https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/v/60538040
https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/v/61927498
Post by: Criptfeind on April 22, 2016, 08:57:45 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 22, 2016, 09:47:04 pm
Yeah, it's a bit weird how there's been two weekly streams over the past two weeks.lol subtle burn
Post by: BFEL on April 22, 2016, 09:52:39 pm
Also for some reason the first one is only like half an hour with FOUR HOURS of nothing afterward.
So maybe it was supposed to be attached to the one before it? Fuck if I know.
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 22, 2016, 09:54:48 pm
Post by: Aklyon on April 22, 2016, 10:30:41 pm
Post by: Biowraith on April 23, 2016, 01:12:57 am
Post by: BFEL on April 23, 2016, 02:23:54 am
They have a youtube channel (https://www.youtube.com/user/ParadoxExtra/playlists) for those, you know.Yeah but on youtube its all split up, not to mention things like ads.
Post by: MrWiggles on April 23, 2016, 09:17:51 pm
Post by: BFEL on April 23, 2016, 09:53:04 pm
AND that's why you have adblock/ghostery/whatever that new adblock plugin was called that a lot of people like.BFEL cannot into plugins.
Post by: Aklyon on April 23, 2016, 09:58:33 pm
Plugins are very simple (unless you are using IE, in that case don't use IE, and your plugin problem is now much simpler.).AND that's why you have adblock/ghostery/whatever that new adblock plugin was called that a lot of people like.BFEL cannot into plugins.
1. Search for plugin. (for firefox/chrome/etc)
2. Click button on plugin page.
adblock (whichever) is for blocking ads.
Ghostery is for other annoying tracker things.
Post by: BFEL on April 23, 2016, 10:05:50 pm
So IE is bad at plugins? Guess that explains things.Plugins are very simple (unless you are using IE, in that case don't use IE, and your plugin problem is now much simpler.).AND that's why you have adblock/ghostery/whatever that new adblock plugin was called that a lot of people like.BFEL cannot into plugins.
1. Search for plugin. (for firefox/chrome/etc)
2. Click button on plugin page.
adblock (whichever) is for blocking ads.
Ghostery is for other annoying tracker things.
Post by: Aklyon on April 23, 2016, 10:07:24 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 23, 2016, 10:18:47 pm
Post by: Cruxador on April 24, 2016, 12:48:10 am
So IE is bad at plugins? Guess that explains things.IE is bad at everything, really. To the extent that Microsoft made a whole new browser rather than keep updating it.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on April 24, 2016, 02:25:56 am
So IE is bad at plugins? Guess that explains things.IE is bad at everything, really. To the extent that Microsoft made a whole new browser rather than keep updating it.
That new browser kept slowing down/ crashing every 2-3 minutes on freshly bought ultrabook. I suppose, that insignia of internet explorer is cursed.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 24, 2016, 02:41:40 am
Post by: Shadowlord on April 24, 2016, 10:25:34 am
Post by: Retropunch on April 24, 2016, 11:36:29 am
I use uBlock Origin on Chrome. It's more efficient than AdBlock, iirc. I also use uMatrix, but that's more complicated.
uBlock is fantastic, but I've found it can mess up some sites by being a bit too vigorous sometimes.
Post by: MrWiggles on April 24, 2016, 03:33:29 pm
Post by: Retropunch on April 24, 2016, 04:13:04 pm
I'm aberrant, and never been bother by ads. I'll even watch them fully on occasion.
It depends where you go - most main stream sites it's not needed for, but there are some places where it's pretty much impossible to see the site through the ads.
I fully support adblock's method of only blocking intrusive or spammy ads though, and I really think that's the way to go.
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 24, 2016, 07:53:45 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on April 25, 2016, 12:57:49 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on April 25, 2016, 01:00:36 am
Still have a few quibbles with what I've seen. It seems too hard to get info on other nations planets/fleets especially if they are hostile to you, I wish alliances would be neutral to their allies' rebels (seems like it would make alliances needlessly stable and powerful), and I have some reservations about the Galactic Civs style trade diplomacy (not that Galactic Civs diplomacy isn't great, but I've grown to like Paradox style one-way diplomacy). Still, the Blorg LP looked surprisingly playable by Paradox initial release standards and the game is only going to be expanded on as things go on.
Its funny, this game reminds me of Distant Worlds more than anything else. The similarities are really striking. But where Distant Worlds is one of the most needlessly granular and micromanagy games I've ever played, this looks like it strikes a nice balance between control and automation. Not to mention the one thing I wanted in Distant Worlds was actually good diplomacy and this is being made by Paradox.
Post by: umiman on April 25, 2016, 01:45:40 am
This game looks like several games I've wanted to exist at various points in my life. My friend made the mistake of showing me the Blorg LP too far away from the release date and now the wait has become very difficult to endure, even tho its just 2 weeks.Thank you for bringing us back on track. *salute*
Still have a few quibbles with what I've seen. It seems too hard to get info on other nations planets/fleets especially if they are hostile to you, I wish alliances would be neutral to their allies' rebels (seems like it would make alliances needlessly stable and powerful), and I have some reservations about the Galactic Civs style trade diplomacy (not that Galactic Civs diplomacy isn't great, but I've grown to like Paradox style one-way diplomacy). Still, the Blorg LP looked surprisingly playable by Paradox initial release standards and the game is only going to be expanded on as things go on.
Its funny, this game reminds me of Distant Worlds more than anything else. The similarities are really striking. But where Distant Worlds is one of the most needlessly granular and micromanagy games I've ever played, this looks like it strikes a nice balance between control and automation. Not to mention the one thing I wanted in Distant Worlds was actually good diplomacy and this is being made by Paradox.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on April 25, 2016, 02:02:12 am
Post by: Majestic7 on April 25, 2016, 02:37:00 am
The one thing I really liked about Distant Worlds was the way the universe felt alive. All the civilian traffic, economic activities and so forth were nice to just watch. This seems to be something Stellaris lacks. At least so far I've only seen government-owned ships, mainly military and constructors, science vessels & colony ships.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on April 25, 2016, 02:45:20 am
Post by: RadtheCad on April 25, 2016, 02:57:59 am
Post by: BFEL on April 25, 2016, 05:52:57 am
There IS one thing that it did that I've since wanted to see in other games but have been disappointed so far.
Specifically it started you pre-warp. And not just "two seconds away from warp drive" but there's like a half hour or so of gameplay between the start of the game and your first warp jump, and to me that made it feel really special. Really puts you in the mood.
Post by: Majestic7 on April 25, 2016, 05:57:23 am
Post by: BFEL on April 25, 2016, 06:14:59 am
In Distant Worlds non-warp speed was "you could literally finish a game in the time it will take this ship to visit the next star over" so not having warp (and consequently, having it) felt like a pretty big deal.
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 25, 2016, 06:19:05 am
The difference is in Stellaris even non warp ships can go interstellar with seemingly no problems at all. I mean otherwise how would wormhole civs get anything done?Wormhole stations in Stellaris aren't point to point, they're more link fling beacons from star ruler. Each wormhole station has a radius around it. Any ship near the station can be sent to anywhere in that radius, and any ship in that radius can return to the station.
So wormholes are an A -> B -> A -> C type travel.
Post by: Criptfeind on April 25, 2016, 09:21:03 am
Doesn't Stellaris start pre-warp too? At least pre-starships. You need to decide whether to research colonization first, for example.
No, I'm pretty sure you start with one of the three types of ftl engines and several flt capable ships.
As for starting prewarp, if planets were a bigger deal and more interesting, maybe. But as it seems planets don't actually have that many interesting things to do (and not like a, there's not enough content, but just purely from the scale of the game I would expect them to be fairly uninteresting). What are you going to do anyway if there wasn't flt ships for the first 50 years? Just scan your own system and wait? There doesn't seem much else to do.
In MOO2 if you start prewarp you can sorta micromange your starting planet and maybe colonize some other planets in your system. But even that's not very interesting, and this has less... Hum, maybe it'd be a cool option? But I can't see that many people taking it.
Post by: Aklyon on April 25, 2016, 09:43:03 am
That was basically my PTW post so I didn't even know what the track was :PEven better!
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 25, 2016, 10:34:14 am
So IE is bad at plugins? Guess that explains things.IE is bad at everything, really. To the extent that Microsoft made a whole new browser rather than keep updating it.
Too bad it's required to play Distant Worlds. Despite owning DW for months I've never played it because I can't be bothered to re-enable IE on Windows. With Stellaris coming out, I guess I never will.
Post by: Aklyon on April 25, 2016, 10:36:11 am
Post by: Persus13 on April 25, 2016, 10:40:06 am
Post by: Wiles on April 25, 2016, 11:13:05 am
Post by: Ultimuh on April 25, 2016, 11:18:08 am
I'm really hoping they do a midnight release for Stellaris. It just so happens that I'm leaving for a trip on the ninth and I'd love to be able to play Stellaris while travelling otherwise I'm going to have to wait a while before I get broadband access again.
It really depends on where you live.
From what I have read.. (Don't take my word for it though.).. Is that it will be released some time in the evening here in Sweden (I would guess around 6 or 7 pm). So it requires a little math to figure out.
Post by: Aklyon on April 25, 2016, 11:24:02 am
Post by: Ultimuh on April 25, 2016, 11:25:54 am
A little math, you say? (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Convert+May+9th+7pm+in+sweden+to+local+time) ;D
That certainly would be helpful.
Good job Aklyon.
/me claps.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 26, 2016, 11:35:52 am
Apparently the game's help system uses IE.
Oh, and Windows Media Player.
Post by: Ludorum Rex on April 26, 2016, 01:08:19 pm
...what does DW need IE for? I'd understand if it was an mmo that still used ie for whatever, but as far as I know that game's only relation to browser stuff would be multiplayer.
Windows has an reusable browser ActiveX component which uses IE. The alternative is putting Chromium (or one of the wrappers such as CEF) in the binaries or using something other than HTML for the help system. It's actually a huge pain when developing Windows applications - having an application-hosted browser window requires using the ancient IE ActiveX control or including a rather daunting dependency on an open source wrapper of an open source browser.
A lot of recent web-based desktop applications get around this by using something like Electron, which is a wrapper around Chromium (the disadvantage is that Electron is not very friendly towards integrating non-html content). But Electron is a framework and not a component, so it's not a good choice for a game.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on April 26, 2016, 01:31:18 pm
Post by: evilcherry on April 28, 2016, 04:33:50 am
Post by: Majestic7 on April 28, 2016, 05:36:05 am
Post by: Ultimuh on April 28, 2016, 05:38:25 am
It is still evil to release the game on Monday, why not end of the week? Evil Paradox.
Well they can use all week to patch up any glitches or bugs that might pop up during launch.
Rather than let you wait a whole week-end for the patches to arrive.
Post by: BFEL on April 28, 2016, 06:04:39 am
It is still evil to release the game on Monday, why not end of the week? Evil Paradox.Speak for yourself. As someone with an irregular work schedule (paper carrier, tuesday/wednesday are like my weekend while saturday/sunday FUCKING SUCK ASSHOLES) I appreciate their release date.
Even moreso that they decided to give me something to distract myself with while my mom goes in for surgery.
Post by: Majestic7 on April 28, 2016, 06:19:52 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on April 30, 2016, 03:11:05 am
Anyway, watching a certain fungusy stream and noticing several ineffectual one planet independence rebels popping up. Makes me think, have any of you ever seen independence rebels create a nation that survives in the long term? In any Paradox game I mean. I've never seen it that I can remember.
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 30, 2016, 03:36:26 am
Anyway, watching a certain fungusy stream and noticing several ineffectual one planet independence rebels popping up. Makes me think, have any of you ever seen independence rebels create a nation that survives in the long term? In any Paradox game I mean. I've never seen it that I can remember.Rarely. I've seen a handful of oddities like Normandy conquering half of northern France, but independence rebellions never amount to anything unless the nation is already in deep shit.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on April 30, 2016, 04:30:09 am
Post by: BFEL on April 30, 2016, 06:45:21 am
I've seen plenty, but, as said, the ruling nation needs to be in Deep Shit and falling to pieces all over for them to thrive. It's always nice to see what should be a doomed minor rise up from the heart of some blobby empire and blob across the land in turn.Not always. Particularly not when YOU are the blobby empire and suddenly 20000 strong rebels after you get wrecked in a war. And then your brother decides "oh cool I see you're occupied with those rebels over there, lemme just take your everything" and then the last ten hours of your life go to waste.
As much as I like Crusader Kings, it sure makes a point of reminding me it doesn't like me back. The fucking tsundere bitch.
Post by: Persus13 on April 30, 2016, 07:16:01 am
Only 9 days till we get to go out into space. Not sure if I want my first run to be a custom alien race, or humans.How do you think Persia shows up? The collapse of the Timurid will create other nations too. I've also seen Ming completely collapse to independence movements as well.
Anyway, watching a certain fungusy stream and noticing several ineffectual one planet independence rebels popping up. Makes me think, have any of you ever seen independence rebels create a nation that survives in the long term? In any Paradox game I mean. I've never seen it that I can remember.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 30, 2016, 09:18:34 am
I've seen plenty, but, as said, the ruling nation needs to be in Deep Shit and falling to pieces all over for them to thrive. It's always nice to see what should be a doomed minor rise up from the heart of some blobby empire and blob across the land in turn.Not always. Particularly not when YOU are the blobby empire and suddenly 20000 strong rebels after you get wrecked in a war. And then your brother decides "oh cool I see you're occupied with those rebels over there, lemme just take your everything" and then the last ten hours of your life go to waste.
As much as I like Crusader Kings, it sure makes a point of reminding me it doesn't like me back. The fucking tsundere bitch.
Spoiler: Clearly CK2 is doing it wrong (click to show/hide)
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 02, 2016, 12:50:11 am
To tide you over: a civ creator (https://kaisersly.github.io/stellaris_race_maker/). Its super incomplete, it has none of the cosmetic stuff except name, and the starting tech/planet/FTL choices are missing. But its something.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 02, 2016, 02:42:04 am
Post by: Shadowlord on May 02, 2016, 08:00:45 am
I can't wait for this game, its becoming difficult.
To tide you over: a civ creator (https://kaisersly.github.io/stellaris_race_maker/). Its super incomplete, it has none of the cosmetic stuff except name, and the starting tech/planet/FTL choices are missing. But its something.
Someone posted this pages and pages ago... it being buried in posts seems like a good enough reason to re-post it, since it's pretty neat. :P
Post by: Cruxador on May 02, 2016, 11:18:12 am
as long as it isn't just plain boring and shitty like my worst disappointment ever, MOO3.It's a Paradox game, so it should work well enough but it'll be kinda bare-bones until the first year or two of DLC is out.
Of course, that's better than most 4x games which are bare-bones when they come out and then stay that way.
Post by: Greenbane on May 02, 2016, 12:34:03 pm
I can't wait for this game, its becoming difficult.
To tide you over: a civ creator (https://kaisersly.github.io/stellaris_race_maker/). Its super incomplete, it has none of the cosmetic stuff except name, and the starting tech/planet/FTL choices are missing. But its something.
Someone posted this pages and pages ago... it being buried in posts seems like a good enough reason to re-post it, since it's pretty neat. :P
Hmm. So there's three ethos points but only three combinable moderate choices? Are races most often expected to have a moderate trait and a fanatic one then? What'd happen if you picked two moderate choices and left your remaining point unspent? Are you even allowed to do that?
Post by: Cruxador on May 02, 2016, 12:38:58 pm
Not sure what you're getting at there, but there's eight moderate choices, each one is mutually exclusive with only one other.I can't wait for this game, its becoming difficult.
To tide you over: a civ creator (https://kaisersly.github.io/stellaris_race_maker/). Its super incomplete, it has none of the cosmetic stuff except name, and the starting tech/planet/FTL choices are missing. But its something.
Someone posted this pages and pages ago... it being buried in posts seems like a good enough reason to re-post it, since it's pretty neat. :P
Hmm. So there's three ethos points but only three combinable moderate choices?
Post by: Xgamer4 on May 02, 2016, 12:52:59 pm
Is there any benefit to spending the extra $10 to get the "Exclusive Alien Race (Cosmetic DLC)"? Or should I just stick with the base preorder?
Post by: Teneb on May 02, 2016, 12:59:36 pm
Post by: Greenbane on May 02, 2016, 01:16:41 pm
Not sure what you're getting at there, but there's eight moderate choices, each one is mutually exclusive with only one other.
Yeah, sorry, I forgot about Xenophobe/Xenophile, and didn't explain myself correctly. It just feels the moderate options are extremely limited, and it seems wasteful that it's four choices and their opposites. And two of those axes aren't exactly moderate: either you're Militarist or Pacifist, Xenophobe or Xenophile. So leaving those pseudo-extremist options aside, you have either Materialistic/Spiritual and Individualist/Collectivist. Two choices, and that leaves one point unspent.
Makes it hard to come up with races that aren't comically stereotyped. I'm trying to come up with a reasonable depiction of humanity, and I'm leaning towards Materialistic and Individualist. And then I'm left with the pseudo-extremes, and must either love/hate war/aliens, or radicalize one of the other traits.
Post by: Criptfeind on May 02, 2016, 01:29:02 pm
One thing I do find odd though is how it seems like all the pops on your home planet start with the same ethos, which seems quite odd to me, like your whole species just went though one hive mind period or something that ends as soon as you discover warp travel and the game proper starts. Might just be a balance thing, not having to deal with unhappy pops when you only have one undeveloped world.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 02, 2016, 02:34:37 pm
Fanaticism presumably means your pop has been feeling so strongly for so long that they can no longer even consider the alternative as acceptable. Whereas for example a normal pacifist might acknowledge the need for initiating violence in extreme circumstances or a xenophobe might acknowledge immigrants are acceptable in specific cases. A fanatic xenophobe and pacifist would never accept those things and would view the moderate opinion as a radical fringe. Although their leaders might be a little more pragmatic...
Post by: Ultimuh on May 02, 2016, 03:57:07 pm
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-32-modding-art.924762/ (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-32-modding-art.924762/)
Post by: sambojin on May 02, 2016, 04:29:12 pm
Space fruit for all! The Mighty Zinglon commands it!
I'm pretty sure you can convert Blender to Maya files somehow, so it's sort of freeware friendly for modding purposes, at least for simple stuff. Or, ummm, "test" Maya's capabilities on your platform.
Post by: Greenbane on May 02, 2016, 05:12:27 pm
I don't think that non fanatic Militarialist/Pacifist and Xenophobe/Xenophile necessarily have to be extremes, at least anymore then the other axis. It seems to be in how your imagine that meaning, like I could imagine humans being Militarialistic. At least as easy as I could imagine them being materialistic and individualist.
There's really not many significant examples of modern, active militarist societies akin to Sparta (might be argued that was Fanatic Militarist) or the more recent Prussia nowadays. The United States devotes a very significant chunk of their budget to defense, but even then I'm not sure the US is really a militarist society in the traditional sense of the term. Militarism exceeds the fairly moderate "I'll go to war when necessary", and pacifism has a stronger meaning than merely "I don't like war". Perhaps humanity in general is slightly more pro-war than anti-war, but not enough to be considered militaristic as a whole.
It's sort of the same deal with Xenophobe/Xenophile. They are more extreme than more neutral postures like materialism and individualism (which I do see strongly represented across the planet). But I don't believe mankind as a whole leans one way substantially more than the other.
So does anyone know what'd happen to the unspent point?
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 02, 2016, 08:41:06 pm
In other news, I just realized that "Theocratic Oligarchy" basically means Space Vatican.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on May 02, 2016, 09:14:22 pm
Depends on what militaristic and pacificistic means in the context of space, really. The reality of militarism is complicated on Earth.
In other news, I just realized that "Theocratic Oligarchy" basically means Space Vatican.
The Space Pope is real.
Post by: Ultimuh on May 03, 2016, 03:18:31 am
https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/ (https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/)
Post by: BFEL on May 03, 2016, 05:25:12 am
The big Multiplayer event in London should be starting in less than an hour from now:
https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/ (https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/)
Someone already got picked on by a fallen empire :P
Post by: bulborbish on May 03, 2016, 09:38:48 am
The big Multiplayer event in London should be starting in less than an hour from now:
https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/ (https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/)
Someone already got picked on by a fallen empire :P
In the fallen empires defense the person picked on rivaled them. In the end the fallen empire picked on them twice before the rivalry was ended.
Post by: BFEL on May 03, 2016, 12:41:48 pm
Post by: Chosrau on May 03, 2016, 02:43:40 pm
https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/4hnw2c/list_of_playercontrolled_empires_in_multiplayer/
Post by: Ultimuh on May 03, 2016, 06:31:59 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Cruxador on May 03, 2016, 09:38:10 pm
Well, for some reason I thought the release date was the 6th.Well it's really the same number, just the other way up.
Post by: umiman on May 04, 2016, 12:06:46 am
Here you goAll hail Sithrak! The god who hates you unconditionally!
https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/4hnw2c/list_of_playercontrolled_empires_in_multiplayer/
I hope you can play MP in this without being forced to stay at speed 1 or 2.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 04, 2016, 01:12:45 am
Post by: umiman on May 04, 2016, 01:20:18 am
Post by: Mini on May 04, 2016, 02:10:05 am
Post by: Ultimuh on May 04, 2016, 02:16:58 am
Let's see how this will turn out..
So, any takes on who will be the first empire to be eliminated?
Post by: umiman on May 04, 2016, 02:22:36 am
Yesterday, where there was sort of a ceasefire between the players. Today, all bets are off.I don't think it'll be anyone on the first day of conflict. It seems a bit hard to knock people out much like CK2 or EU.
Let's see how this will turn out..
So, any takes on who will be the first empire to be eliminated?
Post by: yarr on May 04, 2016, 02:48:56 pm
Hope it's at least as good as EU4 :)
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 04, 2016, 03:09:55 pm
Yesterday, where there was sort of a ceasefire between the players. Today, all bets are off.Watching it on youtube since they mainly stream while I sleep, it looks like the galaxy formed into two giant alliances with the Blorg getting the larger one... its a bit boring actually. I'd have preferred independent nations and small alliances duking it out but I guess when humans are involved things will inevitably trend towards trying to gather a large powerful group.
Let's see how this will turn out..
So, any takes on who will be the first empire to be eliminated?
Post by: umiman on May 04, 2016, 04:53:40 pm
I'm sure this can be remedied by mods.
The ship designing also looks a bit meh. I hope that gets something done to it too... with DLC or something.
Post by: Ultimuh on May 04, 2016, 05:10:54 pm
The ship designing also looks a bit meh. I hope that gets something done to it too... with DLC or something.
Well we will see how "meh" this actually is when the game is out.
But yeah, mods might help.
Post by: Aklyon on May 04, 2016, 05:25:25 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 04, 2016, 05:26:48 pm
Definitely going to be an espionage expansion at some point. This game has basically the same leader system as Distant Worlds which has spies as one of the leader types. Not to mention Xenophile/Xenophobe are just begging to have espionage resistance penalties/bonuses respectively.
Post by: Ultimuh on May 04, 2016, 05:28:19 pm
I might head over to Youtube soon, spamming the F5 until a relevant vid shows up. :v
Post by: Cruxador on May 04, 2016, 05:36:37 pm
The ship designing also looks a bit meh. I hope that gets something done to it too... with DLC or something.That was my initial impression too, but really, it lets you swap parts out and put what you like where you like it, mostly. Short of going full GalCiv and letting you play legos with everything, this seems about as good as it gets. There are a few arbitrary limitations that I don't like. Research ships can't have guns, so you can't make one capable of dealing with hostile fauna/pirates, and the same applies to transports so you can't prevent them from being wiped out by single corvette fleets without an escort. Special functionality modules are limited to one per ship, as are FTL techs. Ground armies have the one module problem too. But overall the system seems pretty solid to me, and definitely extensible via modding/DLCs.
Post by: Xgamer4 on May 04, 2016, 05:37:55 pm
Okay, I preordered this game for 25% off from GreenmanGaming (they have a special offer running currently).
Hope it's at least as good as EU4 :)
Just snagged a copy as well. I was debating if I wanted to preorder, but the 25% off tipped me over. I've never used GMG before. Will I be getting the key in an email later, or how's that work now that I've purchased it?
Post by: umiman on May 04, 2016, 05:39:05 pm
They'll tell you when your key is ready.Okay, I preordered this game for 25% off from GreenmanGaming (they have a special offer running currently).
Hope it's at least as good as EU4 :)
Just snagged a copy as well. I was debating if I wanted to preorder, but the 25% off tipped me over. I've never used GMG before. Will I be getting the key in an email later, or how's that work now that I've purchased it?
They usually have it a few days before release.
Keep in mind Stellaris won't have preloads AFAIK.
Post by: Ultimuh on May 04, 2016, 05:59:35 pm
Post by: Teneb on May 04, 2016, 07:47:35 pm
So apparently there are Ringworlds but only Fallen Empires can build them?Paradox recently released a tool to import custom models into their latest games (Stellaris and HoI will get full support, EU4 and CK2 partial), so you could get it from mods.
I'm sure this can be remedied by mods.
The ship designing also looks a bit meh. I hope that gets something done to it too... with DLC or something.
Post by: umiman on May 04, 2016, 07:52:05 pm
That's good then. We'll probably get the Star Wars models almost instantly. I'm hoping we get the Imperium ships as well.So apparently there are Ringworlds but only Fallen Empires can build them?Paradox recently released a tool to import custom models into their latest games (Stellaris and HoI will get full support, EU4 and CK2 partial), so you could get it from mods.
I'm sure this can be remedied by mods.
The ship designing also looks a bit meh. I hope that gets something done to it too... with DLC or something.
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 04, 2016, 11:53:23 pm
Post by: Intrinsic on May 05, 2016, 08:01:23 am
I am too hyped for this
So much hype can be a bad thing, raises too many expectations.
Post by: Exerosp on May 05, 2016, 08:31:43 am
Quill18 has a time set already for his twitch stream. (https://twitter.com/quill18/status/727985990342737921)Isn't that for his youtube clips he upped this morning?
Not so sure you can have too high expectations of a Paradox games. I'm hyped for it too, and i've decided to not spoil myself anymore having seen video footage of about an hour off it.I am too hyped for this
So much hype can be a bad thing, raises too many expectations.
Post by: Wiles on May 05, 2016, 11:10:39 am
Paradox is well known for taking a working formula, buggering it, then taking a good while to fix it though (at least recently). Still, been hearing almost nothing but good from the game, so perhaps that'll be delayed to the expansions.
Well known by who? Vanilla Crusader Kings II and vanilla Europa Universalis IV were good games when they came out. They are better games now but they were far from "buggered" on release.
Post by: Criptfeind on May 05, 2016, 11:29:57 am
Post by: Ultimuh on May 05, 2016, 12:18:49 pm
Eu4 was pretty buggered on release, at least compared to EU3 it wasn't an enjoyable game at all. CK2 was good though. Hopefully Stellaris will be more like CK2 than EU4.
Well they have plenty of people testing the game as we speak. (YouTubers)
So we can expect plenty of bugfixing before the release.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 05, 2016, 12:27:34 pm
Paradox is well known for taking a working formula, buggering it, then taking a good while to fix it though (at least recently). Still, been hearing almost nothing but good from the game, so perhaps that'll be delayed to the expansions.
Well known by who? Vanilla Crusader Kings II and vanilla Europa Universalis IV were good games when they came out. They are better games now but they were far from "buggered" on release.
Uhh... no. Vanilla CK2 launched several hard crash bugs. Including one where marking a character of interest would lead to a crash any time you loaded that game. There were other crash bugs, like on the realm tree screen. There were a ton of obvious problems with the diplomatic AI, like how it would allow you to marry matrimarry its heirs to random nobodies. Plots to revoke titles didn't actually work half the time. And the 100 Years' War bookmark didn't even work, because Edward III didn't start with a claim on France. It was an all-around shitshow. And that's not even talking about most of the balance or sensibility issues.
Recent EU4 DLCs and patches have been pretty bad too. Like "oh we'll introduce protectorates but forget to introduce any rules for them" or "for some reason annexing a daimyo now annexes all of Japan, even though this patch had nothing to do with Japan" or "we'll invent naval missions but not make them actually work." The DLC is 100% shovelware at this point.
Stellaris may or may not be any better. We'll see. Paradox's development process has been described by its own people as basically "make it up as we go along."
Post by: Drakale on May 05, 2016, 12:57:32 pm
Post by: Aklyon on May 05, 2016, 12:59:39 pm
Post by: Cruxador on May 05, 2016, 01:11:19 pm
When it comes to stuff like crash bugs, I'm not super worried, but occasional crash bugs are a lot easier to work around than tedious mechanics. And I do think that they'll have fixed any crash bugs which are worse than occasional by launch.
Post by: Greenbane on May 05, 2016, 01:27:21 pm
Post by: Glloyd on May 05, 2016, 03:57:05 pm
It'll be good, but not amazing. You shod be more hyped for what the game will look like in a couple years after a few good DLCs and a couple meh ones.
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 05, 2016, 08:33:06 pm
Still, it looks really fun, and you can't really blame them for buggering up a few things when there's more mechanics and depth than most other games.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 05, 2016, 08:37:17 pm
So relative to other launches it should be fine. Relative to other studios' games... well...
Post by: Exerosp on May 06, 2016, 01:22:17 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 06, 2016, 03:16:51 am
There was a interesting bug, or idk if it was intended or not, at the multiplayer stream. Truces are bound to federations, so if a federation gets disbanded after a war, you don't get no truce, I think.That's interesting. I hope they keep it in, assuming it's intended.
Also reposting this seeing as it keeps getting buried: https://kaisersly.github.io/stellaris_race_maker/
Post by: Exerosp on May 06, 2016, 10:33:20 am
There'd be so much hate on unrepsonsive devs if they released it on a friday, since most of them (all?) take their time off during the weekends.
And well, Paradox has this weekend off because of holidays etc.
Post by: Teneb on May 06, 2016, 11:36:29 am
Post by: Cruxador on May 06, 2016, 12:30:00 pm
Post by: Exerosp on May 06, 2016, 12:55:45 pm
I understand that reason, but it's still frustrating to have a whole Sunday off wanting to play and being so close yet so far.Eurotime is worst time. We'll have time to wake up and be forced to idle and anticipate the release on Monday.
Post by: Zangi on May 06, 2016, 01:58:02 pm
Temper your hype with expectations of bugginess and possible insufficiency of the game's systems.Temper thine own hype, for the coming of DLC is all but guaranteed.
Post by: Shadowlord on May 06, 2016, 09:20:16 pm
Post by: Exerosp on May 06, 2016, 10:19:11 pm
You mean they aren't selling the MAKE SPACE GREAT AGAIN hats? ???Nono. There's just a Blorg fandom. At least that's why I think Ordie wants to see some Blorg shirts. (Not that he himself is one, but I'm seeing quite a few "Death to the Blorg" posts)
Post by: rumpel on May 06, 2016, 11:23:39 pm
I just miss the Stellaris Sign-Up icon, because I didn't notice this promo clicker game at all... I like the icons, but on the other hand I never really post there.
Post by: tryrar on May 07, 2016, 06:20:18 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 07, 2016, 06:37:43 am
Post by: Exerosp on May 07, 2016, 07:58:51 am
OK, i need a system check here: I have an early i3, a 750ti, 4 gigs 1066 ram, and 64 bit windows 10. Can I run this game at at least non-minimum settings? Need to know before I decide to buy!You should be able to run just fine on your specs. Clausewitz doesn't run anymore than 32bit though, but supports 64bit.
Post by: tryrar on May 07, 2016, 01:42:39 pm
Post by: Atian the Elephantman God on May 07, 2016, 08:33:03 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 07, 2016, 08:44:28 pm
Post by: umiman on May 07, 2016, 11:54:31 pm
https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/4iatr2/psa_slaves_currently_cant_rebel/
Post by: Catastrophic lolcats on May 08, 2016, 01:34:49 am
Apparently slave races can't revolt for the release.It doesn't inspire confidence in my pre-order that such a massive mechanic could be missing from the game. Slavery focused empires sound like they have no real downsides since it's so easy to stack slavery tolerance and the lack of any risk from owning slaves.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/4iatr2/psa_slaves_currently_cant_rebel/
I've been worried about the lack of complexity since release and this only increases it. I guess at least it will be fixed in a $25 DLC down the road.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 08, 2016, 01:50:42 am
It seems like a small happiness malus would be reasonable stopgap? Seeing as how rebellions seem fairly common with no maluses at all. Or a large happiness malus but reduced ethics impact (since slaves are likely less ideological due to their larger, more immediate problems). Or slaves cannot rebel via normal mechanics unless they outnumber the number of defense armies on the planet, but there are negative events related to slavery including one that causes a rebellion regardless.
Post by: Cruxador on May 08, 2016, 02:05:22 am
Post by: Biowraith on May 08, 2016, 02:09:05 am
https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/729066263805317120
https://twitter.com/RikardAslund/status/729072483433910274
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/slave-cant-rebe.925975/page-8#post-21118628
Sounds like we can expect slave rebellions at some point, but not terribly soon.
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 08, 2016, 02:11:56 am
I've been worried about the lack of complexity since release and this only increases it. I guess at least it will be fixed in a $25 DLC down the road.Come now, even the base game has more going on than, say, Civ V with expansions. It only lacks complexity compared to other Paradox strategy titles... with expansions.
Man, Paradox really wants me to take slaves. They put slave modifiers on all the stuff I want (collectivist, xenophobe, divine mandate) and now this?I was also going to go for a slavery empire, but no rebellions doesn't seem fun.
Sounds like we can expect slave rebellions at some point, but not terribly soon.Wow they've really flubbed that one. RIP PDS, you will be missed.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 08, 2016, 02:14:39 am
Post by: Biowraith on May 08, 2016, 02:22:11 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 08, 2016, 02:24:01 am
Post by: Biowraith on May 08, 2016, 02:28:37 am
Post by: Majestic7 on May 08, 2016, 02:55:37 am
Slave revolts don't seem like they'd be very likely to succeed without outside help anyway, but they would certainly do major economical damage. I mean, even after you put the revolt down, you've killed a large portion of your work force, lost the work they didn't do while revolting and likely damage infrastructure badly. This should create a creeping cost associated with slavery. Especially when the revolt happens at the worst possible time, such as when you are fighting a war of attrition and suddenly your mineral production cuts off etc.
Post by: umiman on May 08, 2016, 03:26:41 am
The lack of slave revolts was in the version of the game played in the multiplayer thing in London, right? It might still be in the release version or at least get in the first patch. So I wouldn't worry about it too much. It certainly seems like something that needs to e in the game during the first weeks.Nah, it's been practically confirmed that there won't be any at release though they're open to changing that.
Slave revolts don't seem like they'd be very likely to succeed without outside help anyway, but they would certainly do major economical damage. I mean, even after you put the revolt down, you've killed a large portion of your work force, lost the work they didn't do while revolting and likely damage infrastructure badly. This should create a creeping cost associated with slavery. Especially when the revolt happens at the worst possible time, such as when you are fighting a war of attrition and suddenly your mineral production cuts off etc.
I also don't think this is a particularly huge deal, though it does seem a bit strange. I'd like to say Paradox knows what they're doing but uhhh.... shattered retreat... coalitions...
Post by: Exerosp on May 08, 2016, 05:03:49 am
It'll get fixed though, if not mods then the devs will. Having an organized slave revolt outside of a planet would just be weird though. Or, I don't think they need to revolt. Just give a bit more con like research to go along with the slaves. Or make their working bonus shrink with the happiness.
Post by: Glloyd on May 08, 2016, 05:17:15 am
The lack of slave revolts was in the version of the game played in the multiplayer thing in London, right? It might still be in the release version or at least get in the first patch. So I wouldn't worry about it too much. It certainly seems like something that needs to e in the game during the first weeks.Nah, it's been practically confirmed that there won't be any at release though they're open to changing that.
Slave revolts don't seem like they'd be very likely to succeed without outside help anyway, but they would certainly do major economical damage. I mean, even after you put the revolt down, you've killed a large portion of your work force, lost the work they didn't do while revolting and likely damage infrastructure badly. This should create a creeping cost associated with slavery. Especially when the revolt happens at the worst possible time, such as when you are fighting a war of attrition and suddenly your mineral production cuts off etc.
I also don't think this is a particularly huge deal, though it does seem a bit strange. I'd like to say Paradox knows what they're doing but uhhh.... shattered retreat... coalitions...
To be fair, they're making a bunch of that stuff optional. Pdox isn't good with rollouts, but they do listen to their community more than other big devs.
Post by: Exerosp on May 08, 2016, 05:49:23 am
Because having them individually checked for revolt risk will be horrible for the FPS, i'd assume.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 08, 2016, 06:03:12 am
I mean, that's what sunk the Mongol fleet trying to invade Japan, for example. Chinese slaves had built them shitty ships on purpose and they just blew up in the storm. Nazis had similar difficulties with the quality of equipment made by slaves.
Post by: Chosrau on May 08, 2016, 06:11:18 am
Newly conquered planet on the cusp of rebellion and your peacekeeping armies just aren't enough to deal with it? Just enslave everybody, see their independence faction getting erased because all the pops now get put into the slave rebellion. A month later you just emancipate them all again and the new independence faction needs to tick up again. And once they've done that, you can just repeat the slave-emenacipation cycle to get rid of it again.
They could let slaves be able to join other factions and abolish the slave faction completely. Just add emancipation of any partaking slaves to a succesfull rebellion.
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 08, 2016, 06:24:20 am
Post by: Majestic7 on May 08, 2016, 08:43:28 am
Post by: Teneb on May 08, 2016, 09:08:56 am
(http://i.imgur.com/Oi33U7N.png)(http://i.imgur.com/nZJN37q.png)(http://i.imgur.com/jitEaOw.png)(http://i.imgur.com/PtNN8ZA.png)(http://i.imgur.com/YghBQlb.png)(http://i.imgur.com/bzx5dAF.png)
Furthermore, the whole project augustus clicker game unlocked this for everyone:
(http://i.imgur.com/FQQaZ85.png)
And if you log into the game with your paradox account, you also get this:
(http://i.imgur.com/qkXEtah.png)
Post by: Exerosp on May 08, 2016, 09:11:42 am
(http://i.imgur.com/YghBQlb.png)(http://i.imgur.com/bzx5dAF.png)I'm liking these two. Hydra and PugGremlin :D
Post by: Rolan7 on May 08, 2016, 09:50:25 am
I like the azure owlbear though (;
Post by: Ultimuh on May 08, 2016, 10:22:04 am
I like the azure owlbear though (;
Many on the Stellaris forums, believe it is a reference to Chirpy from Cities Skylines.
As the only color palette that bird has is light blue.
Spoiler: a comparison (click to show/hide)
edit: No idea how true the rumor is, but I believe it is.
Post by: Shadowlord on May 08, 2016, 10:48:05 am
I mean if your only criteria is "IT'S A BLUE BIRD" then fuck... Make him yellow and suddenly it's a reference to Big Bird???
Post by: Exerosp on May 08, 2016, 10:57:31 am
The eyes are the wrong color and where did the yuuuge eyebrows come from?Maybe if ParadoxInteractive was affiliated with Sesame Street. I think Chirp has been referred in more than just Stellaris?
I mean if your only criteria is "IT'S A BLUE BIRD" then fuck... Make him yellow and suddenly it's a reference to Big Bird???
Post by: rumpel on May 08, 2016, 12:22:12 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on May 08, 2016, 01:00:07 pm
Maybe if ParadoxInteractive was affiliated with Sesame Street. I think Chirp has been referred in more than just Stellaris?Which is why people on the Stellaris Forums speculate about this.
Post by: JimboM12 on May 08, 2016, 01:38:57 pm
I want my key now. Come on, GMG, why not send them out already. <.<
I'm in the same boat. While I'm downloading The Sims 2 Ultimate edition for nostalgia purposes, I'm constantly logging into and out of GMG just to make sure it's not up yet, lol.
Post by: Exerosp on May 08, 2016, 01:40:44 pm
Only seen an hour of footage and that's with peeking on the Multiplayer stream. This is gon be good.
Post by: rumpel on May 08, 2016, 01:50:32 pm
I'm in the same boat. While I'm downloading The Sims 2 Ultimate edition for nostalgia purposes, I'm constantly logging into and out of GMG just to make sure it's not up yet, lol.
Haha, yeah. I have both my mail account and GMG open and refresh both sites every few minutes or so. :D
By the way, in case you aren't aware: it'll be released on Steam 18:00 CEST.
Post by: Mini on May 08, 2016, 02:10:11 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 08, 2016, 02:46:19 pm
Post by: Exerosp on May 08, 2016, 02:50:45 pm
So how long will it take before this game is playable? :PProbably less than EU4 or CK2 did :p
Post by: JimboM12 on May 08, 2016, 02:51:47 pm
Begin wild speculation!
Post by: Exerosp on May 08, 2016, 03:00:55 pm
While we're all waiting, how about hammering out a Bay12 Space faring Civilization? The Imperium of Dwarf!I think we should all battle it out together for Armok.
Begin wild speculation!
Post by: JimboM12 on May 08, 2016, 03:13:01 pm
While we're all waiting, how about hammering out a Bay12 Space faring Civilization? The Imperium of Dwarf!I think we should all battle it out together for Armok.
Begin wild speculation!
In some strange, small way, using a civilization of Bay12'ers as crafted here is like having the entire forum behind your back.
A quick slap together showing our love of !science!:
https://kaisersly.github.io/stellaris_race_maker/?version=1&name=%22The%20Imperium%20of%20Dwarf%20v1%22ðoses=2,5,9&government=10&traits=3,8,21
Actually, looking at the stat breakdown, this is a rather well balanced faction build with the weakness of requiring slavery to keep afloat.
Post by: Intrinsic on May 08, 2016, 03:46:01 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 08, 2016, 03:55:23 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on May 08, 2016, 03:58:53 pm
DF dwarves are fanatically materialist xenophobes. DF dorfs are fanatically xenophobic individualists.I don't know how the majority of Bay12'ers play their Dwarves.
But my own Dwarves are rarely xenophobic.
Post by: BFEL on May 08, 2016, 04:09:18 pm
I don't know how the majority of Bay12'ers play their Dwarves.*THROWS MAGMA AT ELVES* "QUICK URIST, SUTURE HIS HAND SO HE CAN THROW MORE MAGMA AT THE ELVES!"
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 08, 2016, 04:13:49 pm
I don't know how much time you spent in the upper boards, but for about a decade fantasy genocide has been a meme up there.DF dwarves are fanatically materialist xenophobes. DF dorfs are fanatically xenophobic individualists.I don't know how the majority of Bay12'ers play their Dwarves.
But my own Dwarves are rarely xenophobic.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 08, 2016, 04:15:54 pm
HopefullySo how long will it take before this game is playable? :PProbably less than EU4 or CK2 did :p
I have lost all ability to keep track of time based off of a solar cycle or Gregorian calendar, I now measure time by the passage of Paradox Interactive DLCs
Post by: BFEL on May 08, 2016, 04:20:32 pm
Ah, the HYPE! calendar. Classic form and function. Nothing to be ashamed of.HopefullySo how long will it take before this game is playable? :PProbably less than EU4 or CK2 did :p
I have lost all ability to keep track of time based off of a solar cycle or Gregorian calendar, I now measure time by the passage of Paradox Interactive DLCs
Post by: Ultimuh on May 08, 2016, 04:22:02 pm
I don't know how much time you spent in the upper boards, but for about a decade fantasy genocide has been a meme up there.Oh I am well aware.
Post by: Atian the Elephantman God on May 08, 2016, 04:58:10 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on May 08, 2016, 05:02:59 pm
Why is there no Elephant portrait? WHYYYY?Mod one in. (http://www.stellariswiki.com/Portrait_modding)
Post by: Atian the Elephantman God on May 08, 2016, 05:04:55 pm
Good Idea.Why is there no Elephant portrait? WHYYYY?Mod one in. (http://www.stellariswiki.com/Portrait_modding)
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 08, 2016, 05:27:17 pm
Why is there no Elephant portrait? WHYYYY?Right? They even have an elephant on the image for the "venerable" trait.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 08, 2016, 07:20:48 pm
Ah, the HYPE! calendar. Classic form and function. Nothing to be ashamed of.Chronohype kills the people D:
Post by: Culise on May 08, 2016, 09:12:17 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on May 08, 2016, 09:15:51 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 08, 2016, 09:38:09 pm
Post by: Exerosp on May 08, 2016, 09:53:37 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 08, 2016, 10:00:06 pm
Post by: Exerosp on May 08, 2016, 11:12:27 pm
It's Monday afternoon here.Oh hey, Oceanic? Didn't know that. Ah well, it's still the same hour. Sweden's 7pm means New Zealands 5am :P
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 09, 2016, 02:34:22 am
...but its also the last day of the Overwatch beta :(
Wrong place to ask, but anyone know what time of day the open beta goes offline for Overwatch?
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 09, 2016, 03:59:02 am
Post by: lordcooper on May 09, 2016, 04:07:51 am
10 a.m., according to 10 seconds of googling.
You can't just say 10AM on the internet.
Post by: Exerosp on May 09, 2016, 04:12:00 am
From my experience, when you just say a time on the internet (especially not military time) you can assume they mean UStime :P10 a.m., according to 10 seconds of googling.
You can't just say 10AM on the internet.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 09, 2016, 04:16:55 am
Post by: RulerOfNothing on May 09, 2016, 04:18:33 am
Also it's going to be released around 2am AEST :(.
Post by: Iituem on May 09, 2016, 04:23:21 am
So predictions, what will be your reason for first ragequit?
Giant AI superblob - Oh wait, that's actually going to be my goal for my first game! Armageddon-ho!
Post by: Glloyd on May 09, 2016, 04:27:34 am
So predictions, what will be your reason for first ragequit?
CTD and corrupted autosave is my bet.
Post by: Teneb on May 09, 2016, 05:38:16 am
Post by: Exerosp on May 09, 2016, 07:00:09 am
Though I get having the release happen since you live in a country that is nighttime when it's daytime in Sweden is a hassle. I'll make sure to redress my bed, grab some alcohol and find my woolen socks for the release :D maybe even cook some salmon since I noticed I had some in my freezer.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 09, 2016, 07:04:33 am
Post by: Exerosp on May 09, 2016, 07:41:15 am
Somewhere out there is a Fallen Empire dedicated to protecting salmon and your late dinner gives the final point of relationship malus. You are dooming us to extinction there!Exerosp has assigned Salmon Saviours as their rival
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Intrinsic on May 09, 2016, 08:53:15 am
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/05/09/stellaris-review-pc/
http://www.pcworld.com/article/3067310/software/stellaris-review-etch-your-stories-across-the-stars-in-paradoxs-latest-grand-strategy-game.html
Post by: Biowraith on May 09, 2016, 11:00:29 am
Post by: Exerosp on May 09, 2016, 11:01:40 am
In case this helps anyone plan or whatever, it's a 2.7GB download.1.6gb here. Guess it's 2.7gb with all the stuff like digital artwork etc?
The download is out though.
Post by: Biowraith on May 09, 2016, 11:06:18 am
Post by: tryrar on May 09, 2016, 11:06:50 am
Post by: Exerosp on May 09, 2016, 11:07:11 am
Maybe the original soundtrack takes up the extra gig? I got the Nova one.Just ticked it on and yep it does. No need to listen to it just yet :D
Post by: Ultimuh on May 09, 2016, 11:12:41 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 09, 2016, 11:14:26 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: neotemplar on May 09, 2016, 11:15:41 am
In case this helps anyone plan or whatever, it's a 2.7GB download.
It helps me, thank you.
Post by: Descan on May 09, 2016, 11:17:22 am
Post by: AnalysisFailed on May 09, 2016, 11:25:00 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 09, 2016, 11:27:37 am
Anyone got a better name?
Post by: Ultimuh on May 09, 2016, 11:30:36 am
So I want to make a human indirect democracy, but the best I got is "Republic of Terra" or "United Earth Republic".
Anyone got a better name?
I am terrible with this sort of stuff as well.
Post by: Iituem on May 09, 2016, 11:32:35 am
So I want to make a human indirect democracy, but the best I got is "Republic of Terra" or "United Earth Republic".
Anyone got a better name?
EarthGov, if you want the Babylon 5 reference. United Nations of Sol, for the Schlock Mercenary reference. If you want a darker tone, how about The People's Free Democratic Republic of Peacefully Allied Nations of Earth and make them xenophobic militarists. Or collectivists, but you can't actually be a democracy then.
The Terran Stadtholder Alliance?
Post by: Aklyon on May 09, 2016, 11:33:34 am
Could always go with the bland and uncreative Indirect Democracy of Terra, if none of these work.So I want to make a human indirect democracy, but the best I got is "Republic of Terra" or "United Earth Republic".
Anyone got a better name?
EarthGov, if you want the Babylon 5 reference. United Nations of Sol, for the Schlock Mercenary reference. If you want a darker tone, how about The People's Free Democratic Republic of Peacefully Allied Nations of Earth and make them xenophobic militarists. Or collectivists, but you can't actually be a democracy then.
The Terran Stadtholder Alliance?
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 09, 2016, 11:44:24 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sirus on May 09, 2016, 11:48:25 am
Post by: Teneb on May 09, 2016, 11:50:23 am
Anyway, my first playthrough will be inspired by this image:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 09, 2016, 12:12:51 pm
Post by: Zangi on May 09, 2016, 12:27:11 pm
US Time is typically one of 3 time zones. More commonly expressed in either PST or EST from my own limited experience.From my experience, when you just say a time on the internet (especially not military time) you can assume they mean UStime :P10 a.m., according to 10 seconds of googling.
You can't just say 10AM on the internet.
Though, I think Steam time is PST.
Post by: TempAcc on May 09, 2016, 12:32:59 pm
I'm kind of miffed there isn't an avian portrait that looks quite like an eagle, so I cannot make alien space amurica.
Post by: Sirus on May 09, 2016, 12:38:18 pm
4 time zones, actually: Pacific, Mountain, Central, and Eastern. This is not including Alaska or Hawaii, which are in completely different time zones.US Time is typically one of 3 time zones. More commonly expressed in either PST or EST from my own limited experience.From my experience, when you just say a time on the internet (especially not military time) you can assume they mean UStime :P10 a.m., according to 10 seconds of googling.
You can't just say 10AM on the internet.
Though, I think Steam time is PST.
Post by: Zangi on May 09, 2016, 12:55:27 pm
Obviously Mountain time doesn't exist cause when was the last time I heard/seen that mentioned? (Other then now.)4 time zones, actually: Pacific, Mountain, Central, and Eastern. This is not including Alaska or Hawaii, which are in completely different time zones.US Time is typically one of 3 time zones. More commonly expressed in either PST or EST from my own limited experience.From my experience, when you just say a time on the internet (especially not military time) you can assume they mean UStime :P10 a.m., according to 10 seconds of googling.
You can't just say 10AM on the internet.
Though, I think Steam time is PST.
Post by: JimboM12 on May 09, 2016, 12:56:10 pm
Purge the heretic, Enslave the xenos, Kill the mutant.
Post by: Ultimuh on May 09, 2016, 01:02:46 pm
But mostly I have made a small handful of empires.
Mainly made three races based of Kahjiit, Argonians and Nords from the Elder Scrolls franchise. :p
It is surprising how spiritual the Elder Scrolls races are.
I mean.. They will inevitably have spiritual as one of their ethoses, if you base them of TES.
edit: As for the Nords, specifically.
I gave them Militarist, Spiritual and Xenophobe.
Their home planet i tundfra, names Skyrim (of course) which orbits a star named Ysmir. (Think I should replace 'Ysmir' with Talos?)
Post by: rumpel on May 09, 2016, 01:27:15 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 09, 2016, 01:52:53 pm
Hammering out an Imperium of Man that's slightly more enlightened and with slightly fewer policies that shoot themselves in the foot. Purge the Xenos has now become Enslave the Xenos. All will serve humanity. Those who are wise enough to bow will be allowed to keep their petty kingdoms as vassals and battle thralls. Those who are not, well, we could always use more miner slaves or factory slaves to produce replacement ship parts.Xeno slaves can lead to corruption.
Purge the heretic, Enslave the xenos, Kill the mutant.
Xeno kingdoms may wait until the right moment to backstab you.
Post by: Biowraith on May 09, 2016, 02:02:35 pm
Post by: rumpel on May 09, 2016, 02:33:41 pm
Edit:I think it wasn't blue actually, but yellow. So I guess it's the normalone..
Btw, is the Steam Overlay working for you?
Post by: JimboM12 on May 09, 2016, 03:00:45 pm
Praise the Emprah.
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 09, 2016, 03:04:30 pm
Post by: umiman on May 09, 2016, 03:05:55 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 09, 2016, 03:14:07 pm
I'm slowly annihilating my way across the galaxy as fanatic materialists. However, it turns out I'm completely surrounded by other materialists so I'm not sure who to attack or if I'm supposed to be enemies with them.Ally with some to kill others, then kill your allies.
Post by: umiman on May 09, 2016, 04:05:09 pm
I ended up killing everyone. I had a super lucky start with 5 continental planets next to me. I outnumber everyone by such a massive margin.I'm slowly annihilating my way across the galaxy as fanatic materialists. However, it turns out I'm completely surrounded by other materialists so I'm not sure who to attack or if I'm supposed to be enemies with them.Ally with some to kill others, then kill your allies.
Now I have so many alien homeworlds and their populations under my control. Not sure what to do with them. I'm not allowed to purge them and I think my slavery allowance rate isn't very high.
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 09, 2016, 04:06:23 pm
Alternatively for faster turns, use a government that elects every 4-5 years and pass the game once another candidate wins. Only rule is no using influence to stack/change the vote.
Basically any of them work, just pass the game when the leader changes.
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 09, 2016, 04:11:59 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 09, 2016, 04:17:29 pm
I'd be up for that.I probably can't start tonight, irl commitments, but tomorrow I could. I'll make a separate thread to see if there is enough interest
Post by: Rolan7 on May 09, 2016, 04:31:43 pm
So I want to make a human indirect democracy, but the best I got is "Republic of Terra" or "United Earth Republic".The Roman Empire. Finally restored.
Anyone got a better name?
Post by: Teneb on May 09, 2016, 05:30:17 pm
Spoiler: Decided to share my dank civilization here (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: That pirate ship's name (click to show/hide)
Post by: Ultimuh on May 09, 2016, 06:38:50 pm
I would not have to worry much however, because it is Fanatic Xenophile.
Although I do wonder what makes them hostile (aside from declaring war against them).
Post by: Iituem on May 09, 2016, 06:40:59 pm
I just discovered that one my empire's neighbours is a Fallen Empire.
I would not have to worry much however, because it is Fanatic Xenophile.
Although I do wonder what makes them hostile (aside from declaring war against them).
Purges. They react really, really very badly to abuses of sapient rights in their neighbours.
Post by: Ultimuh on May 09, 2016, 06:43:06 pm
However I am a bit worried because I still have slaves working in my mines. (Collectivist species.)
edit: By the way, if anyone want my empire in their game.
Go to your documents folder, and the Paradox Interactive folder there. Then open up the user_empire_designs with notepad or something.
Then you just have to copy and paste the following somewhere there. (Most likely below all your other custom empires.)
Spoiler: The Sovereign Ultimundusian Dominion (click to show/hide)
edit: it uses teh Domnation flag pack, so if you don't have that.. I do not know what will happen if you try to use this.
Post by: redwallzyl on May 09, 2016, 07:02:35 pm
also:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Culise on May 09, 2016, 07:09:08 pm
i saw a pirate ship named comet sighted in a lets play a wile back. anyway enjoying the game immensely. i just cant find the aliens! their are 20 in the galaxy and i have only found a few pre space and a non sentient. that and a plant pot floating around a sun.Heh, don't knock the chance to get a bit of breathing space. In my first game, I contacted two presapients and one spacefaring equal. Fanatic Materialistic Pacifists, meet Fanatic Spiritual Xenophobes. I'd best start building my fleet up before they decide to spread the word of their Blorg and Savior to our homeworld, I think. ^_^
Post by: Biowraith on May 09, 2016, 07:13:29 pm
Post by: Aklyon on May 09, 2016, 07:17:12 pm
Spoiler: Heres my civ (click to show/hide)
Not entirely sure on how the flag looks, but if someone wants them in their game anyway I'll go dig out the text Ultimuh pointed out.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 09, 2016, 07:20:09 pm
Our first alien encounter was with a race of industrial reptiles of the planet Kloo. Coincidentally, they completely match the prevailing ethos of Earth, capturing the imagination of humanity. Our first encounter with spacefaring aliens was not as friendly. It was with a race of anthropoids humorously called the Them. They're insects but they look like lobsters. More importantly, the Themlar foundation is a theocracy, which immediately puts them at odds with us. To make things worse, the our next encounter is with the Boki, a military dictatorship of birds. Obviously such a government consists of oppressors opposed to democracy.
The third spacefaring nation humanity encounters is also avians, but in a stroke of luck they're a moral democracy and they love us from the moment we meet. Together with them, the Shantari Republic, we form the DAS, Democratic Allied States.
The Them, in the mean time, colonize a planet in the same system as Kloo and set up an observatory to aggressively study them. This is unacceptable, we cannot allow our brothers and sisters on Kloo to face religious oppression. I begin building a fleet of missile based interceptors to take that system for myself, as well as a force of marines. As I'm considering my options, they form an alliance with the Boki: the Harmonious Axis. In addition to being a seriously appropriate name, it means that we're on too even terms to win an offensive war.
Enter the Helvan Coalition, another nation of birds. They're plutocratic oligarchs, basically a nominal democracy run entirely by the 1%, and their main priority is exploring the galaxy. They aren't much interested in trade so I drop an embassy down and forget about them, instead focusing on building up my power domestically in various ways. However, two relatively uneventful decades later I get an interesting offer: The Helvan want to join the DAS. Now clearly they aren't a democracy in any real sense, but this aligns with our political interest and they're democratic enough that we can sell it to our people. So now they're in, and we again have the advantage over the Axis. I begin expanding my navy with new Liberator Destroyers that bring to bear larger missiles as well as point defense systems.
Before I can declare war myself, my bird friends come with an interesting offer that doesn't really live up to their pacifistic ideals: they want to attack the Harmonious Axis, with the goal of "liberating" planets to form a new democratic nation. Its not strictly optimal but I decide that, yes, this is totally something that space NATO would do so I agree. The war was annoyingly micromanagy but the on the backs of the allied navy and Earth's space marines we did it. We spread democracy.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Oh and we've discovered a nation out there that has overwhelming military compared to us in every category and is NOT a fallen empire. Hopefully we can fly under their radar in the short term.
Post by: Teneb on May 09, 2016, 08:01:31 pm
Does the text dump Ultimuh provided make them appear as a potential civ, or just as a starting option?
Spoiler: At any rate, have my ayys (click to show/hide)
Post by: Ultimuh on May 09, 2016, 08:12:58 pm
Does the text dump Ultimuh provided make them appear as a potential civ, or just as a starting option?Just tested yours, and it seems like it would be both actually. (I think I may keep them around.)Spoiler: At any rate, have my ayys (click to show/hide)
This is a decent way to share empires if anyone wants them.
edit: Although you may want to give a warning if the empire portrait are from a DLC or a mod, because not everyone might have them.
Post by: JimboM12 on May 09, 2016, 08:14:40 pm
The New Imperium
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Note, having weak means nothing when you forcibly conscript slaves to do ground battles for you.
If you wanna try em out:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
*Edit, leader name is a place holder for now.
Post by: Teneb on May 09, 2016, 08:16:52 pm
Also non-reptiles that like you (if you are a lizard) call you "beautiful dragons", which is just amazing.
Spoiler: Actual event spoilers (click to show/hide)
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 09, 2016, 08:45:32 pm
Post by: Teneb on May 09, 2016, 08:49:00 pm
Post by: Catastrophic lolcats on May 09, 2016, 09:04:03 pm
Amazing diplomacy.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 09, 2016, 09:26:35 pm
Edit: I set wargoals to conquer three planets, which is one homeworld for myself and two normal worlds for my allies. The Harmonious Axis surrendered when nothing but the homeworld had been conquered and gave all of them up... to me instead of my allies. GG Paradox.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 09, 2016, 09:35:32 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 09, 2016, 09:37:23 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 09, 2016, 09:42:51 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on May 09, 2016, 09:46:28 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 09, 2016, 09:56:48 pm
Post by: rumpel on May 09, 2016, 11:04:14 pm
Post by: Cyroth on May 09, 2016, 11:22:04 pm
So one of my neighbours is a fanatical purifier. He declares war and assaults me with several fleets of around a hundred corvettes each. Somehow I defeat them all and stage a counterattack. After I've captured one of the 3 planets I set as my war goal the guy surrenders and I get all 3.
2 seconds later I'm getting sent insults by 3 other xenos I'm usually on very good terms with.
I look at the diplomacy screen and every single AI player is at -200 or worse, with a -300 or -400 relationship value for threat.
Hello? I'm the victim here, I was the one who got attacked. Even my war goal was only a third of whet my attacker demanded (annex 5 planets, liberate 3 more).
Winning a few battles and accidently killing a few populations with orbital bombardments don't make me Spess Stalin.
Post by: Baijiu on May 09, 2016, 11:42:47 pm
Also, diplomacy is kind of weird. If I declare war with the goal of taking planets from my enemies and giving it to members of my federation... most of the time when they surrender they give ME the planets. Not a big deal, but it's just an extra annoying step to distribute the new planets.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on May 09, 2016, 11:43:52 pm
Post by: Greiger on May 09, 2016, 11:49:36 pm
So probably a stupid question, but this is like a 100 page thread, so even if I do a search I'll probably miss it.
I can't really do Real Time Strategy (lets just say last I played starcraft I got zealot rushed when I was building my first barracks) and I really like turn based strategy games. Is this game Real time or Turn Based? Turn based tactical and real time battles like Sword of the Stars? Something completely different? Free pause strategy like Dwarf Fortress? Play Turns by email? Play Turns by FedEx? Football? Chess? Tic Tac Toe? Senet?
The trailers look like it's real time, but usually steam has that as a tag if it is, and I don't see that.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 09, 2016, 11:57:49 pm
Post by: Greiger on May 10, 2016, 12:00:38 am
Except for LoL. I hate that game with the fury of 1000 honey badgers.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 10, 2016, 12:15:31 am
Kinda disappointed with the mid to late game. I had some cool explorations stories going on, but those hit a brickwall when I started discovering other empires and eventually got boxed in. Now I can't expand, everything is explored and I'm in a pretty strong federation that can only declare war when I have the presidency. So... my galaxy is pretty stagnant except for the four years or so that I can declare war.I would avoid federations and giant alliances for now. They make the game more stalematey and AFAIK the AI will be slow to form them on its own. There definitely needs to be some kind of restriction on having half the galaxy fighting on the same side; lord knows it made the pre-release stream super boring. If you ask me alliances should have a scaling influence cost based on their power relative to each member, and federations should have a mechanic to encourage infighting or otherwise make them easier to break up. Since their intended purpose is clearly to be like a CK2 realm but actually they're more stable and powerful than a single nation would be.
Also, diplomacy is kind of weird. If I declare war with the goal of taking planets from my enemies and giving it to members of my federation... most of the time when they surrender they give ME the planets. Not a big deal, but it's just an extra annoying step to distribute the new planets.
Your allies not getting their wargoals is a unintended behavior, a dev said as much during the Blorg stream.
Post by: Biowraith on May 10, 2016, 12:24:06 am
AFAIK the AI will be slow to form them on its own.That depends on how aggressively you (or I guess other AI) are expanding via conquest. 1/3 of all the AI empires in the game (6 out of 17) formed an alliance within the space of a year after I conquered one of my neighbours early on. Prior to that only 2 of them had allied together, just cos they liked each other.
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 10, 2016, 12:36:42 am
Post by: Majestic7 on May 10, 2016, 12:45:28 am
Weak part is other empires, they feel generic and...random. They are mostly randomly generated so that is no wonder. Diplomatic interactions would need more work. Likewise, I think first contact - like the very first contact with intelligent life - should start an event chain that molds your species for good. It is bound to be a huge thing. Now you just get a couple of pop ups and that's it.
Still, considering how intriguing the base game is right now, I can't wait to see what it will be like in two years, especially after all the mods start popping out.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 10, 2016, 01:05:30 am
On the other hand, I've got over a 100 physics research and a 66% physics research multiplier. The path I took to get there was hella inefficient but its working. Takeway: don't upgrade until you've colonized and built the basic buildings everywhere that you can.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 10, 2016, 01:53:48 am
Post by: Furtuka on May 10, 2016, 01:53:50 am
AFAIK the AI will be slow to form them on its own.That depends on how aggressively you (or I guess other AI) are expanding via conquest. 1/3 of all the AI empires in the game (6 out of 17) formed an alliance within the space of a year after I conquered one of my neighbours early on. Prior to that only 2 of them had allied together, just cos they liked each other.
In my game some fool accidentally
Spoiler: spoiler tagged just to be safe? (click to show/hide)
Post by: Majestic7 on May 10, 2016, 01:57:21 am
Post by: flabort on May 10, 2016, 01:59:53 am
I had a sentient species ascend to space-travel levels in the middle of my empire, but no, no experience accelerating them.
Post by: Chronomancer on May 10, 2016, 02:15:16 am
In other news
http://i.imgur.com/bW9mZTK.png [EVENT Spoilers]
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on May 10, 2016, 02:43:17 am
(1) the fleet power rating is a lie. I've reliably lost battles to fleets half my size. I have no idea why. I'll tech up everything, enter the fight with tier III and tier IV weapons and get schooled. The closest I have to a combat a-ha moment is that smaller ships seem to eat bigger ships alive. I haven't had one succesful fight against the AI yet, they win everything.
(2) there needs to be more detail somehow, and I hope the mods fill it in. I really wish the species weren't just decorative. I wanted mushroom people to have different options than lizard people.
Post by: Glloyd on May 10, 2016, 02:44:26 am
I've been playing this all day: major thoughts are
(1) the fleet power rating is a lie. I've reliably lost battles to fleets half my size. I have no idea why. I'll tech up everything, enter the fight with tier III and tier IV weapons and get schooled. The closest I have to a combat a-ha moment is that smaller ships seem to eat bigger ships alive. I haven't had one succesful fight against the AI yet, they win everything.
(2) there needs to be more detail somehow, and I hope the mods fill it in. I really wish the species weren't just decorative. I wanted mushroom people to have different options than lizard people.
Fleet power is really variable. It takes into account a bunch of factors, so while you may have good all round ships, your opponent may have glass cannons mounting fuckhuge guns. It's weird.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 10, 2016, 02:58:11 am
It was actually really fun. My ally was on the opposite side and waged a 2-front war. Not sure how much my ally did, but they definitely helped distract enemy fleets while I occupied one of their border worlds. I then made the mistake of sending my 850 power 1st Expeditionary Fleet into one of their core systems.
In comes a 2k power fleet. I retreat to the occupied system, send away my troop transports and bring in my 400 power 1st Response fleet. Luckily the 1st Response Fleet arrives just in time as the enemy 2k power fleet begins engaging the 1st Expeditionary Fleet.
Battle actually went fairly well, considering the odds. I managed to put a serious dink in their fleet (though admittedly I lost something like half of my Expeditionary Fleet.) I then sent my Homeland Defense Fleet from my Homeworld to my territory's frontline, where I regrouped my Expeditionary and Response fleets.
I then merged the three fleets along with some new ships from my Homeworld.
My combined 1st Emergency Fleet was still fairly underpowered. 1k power compared to what I think was a 1.8k power enemy fleet. I consolidated the rest of my fleets into the 2nd Emergency Fleet which was placed in my territory's frontline. (The map here is actually pretty interesting - both of us use hyperlanes, and there's only one hyperlane to each others' territory. On my side I have a basic Defense platform and Frontier Outpost. That's what I referred to as my territory's frontline.)
The 1st Emergency Fleet then was sent to raid one of the enemy's core planets. I managed to destroy a couple new destroyers of theirs along with their shipyard. Managed to book it before the enemy's 1.8k fleet arrived. After this I then finally combined the 1st and 2nd Emergency Fleets into the 1st Emergency Fleet.
Hoping to put a serious dent into the enemy's fleet while I created a new fleet back in my territory, I sent the 1st Emergency Fleet back into enemy territory, where they engaged the 1.8k power enemy fleet for the last time.
Battle wasn't going too well - a good third or so of my fleet was destroyed with way less enemy casualties. But in the middle of it the enemy accepted my terms and became my vassal.
That was actually really fun. Even if it isn't practical, I do love naming and organizing different fleets. (Prior to the fighting, I had 3 main fleets - Expeditionary, Homeland Defense, and Response. Response was a small fleet originally placed at the frontline before the war to act as a first response unit. The least powerful fleet. Homeland Defense is pretty self explanatory - a fairly standard fleet that more or less just sat at my homeworld for general territory defense. Wasn't powerful, per say, but the intent was to do serious damage and hold out until the Expeditionary Fleet arrived. The Expeditionary Fleet was basically my main one. Most powerful, most ships, was the invasion fleet, etc.)
Post by: tryrar on May 10, 2016, 03:23:12 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 10, 2016, 03:25:18 am
Welp... I was still having a lot of fun with that save :(
Edit: Went back to the furthest back autosave, played up to the point where it "should" crash. Doesn't crash. So its immersion breaking, and confusing because I won't be able to remember what did and didn't happen. But I still have my save. Submitted a ticket to Paradox including the .sav, hopefully they can figure it out.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 10, 2016, 03:38:17 am
I've been playing this all day: major thoughts are
(1) the fleet power rating is a lie. I've reliably lost battles to fleets half my size. I have no idea why. I'll tech up everything, enter the fight with tier III and tier IV weapons and get schooled. The closest I have to a combat a-ha moment is that smaller ships seem to eat bigger ships alive. I haven't had one succesful fight against the AI yet, they win everything.
If you are using only missiles, enemies with point defense will kill you. The same with lazors versus shields or mass drivers against high evasion enemies. Maybe something like that? Alternatively, they had weapons that sliced your defenses, like lazors against armor.
Post by: Willfor on May 10, 2016, 04:09:13 am
Since I'm gonna be gone all day tomorrow that's it for me playing until Wednesday.
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 10, 2016, 04:29:59 am
Apparently science is important. Who'd have thought.So I got a couple of science lab techs and spammed them across my planets. Used all my influence with reshaping sectors to build labs too.
Now I'm shooting ahead; the fungi who rekt me last time are falling behind so I'm getting ready to properly invade and annex all their planets.
Purging aliens is fun. Thanks to ethics divergence some of my pops have started abandoning their xenophobic ways; I might have to purge them too.
Post by: Catastrophic lolcats on May 10, 2016, 06:10:50 am
I've played to what I consider the mid point twice now and just find myself up against a wall. I seem to always be wedged between a couple empires with nowhere to go. I can't build any frontier outposts because of the influence cost, I can't colonise anymore planets and I can't conquer rival planets since I'll just go over my planet support limit.
Sure I could go to war with a couple nations and vassalise them but it doesn't seem have any benefits. I can't do anything with their land, they don't pay me anything and I can't get any treaties going since they hate my guts. There seem to be either no way or no incentive to expand at that point, leaving me to do nothing but sit on the fastest speed and tech up.
One thing I find extremely backwards is that the game seems to actively punish you for colonising in the same system. I guess you're meant to spread your colonies out so you have a greater coverage of planets to build mining/research facilities on. I imagine a simple fix there would change the world limit to system limit which would also make terraforming a much more viable alternative.
It's part of the scissor-paper-rock balance they've got going on. On paper it doesn't seem too bad, it gives crafty nations that specialises their weapons against their enemies a better chance. However the system quickly breaks apart when you're reminded that there's no espionage system and figuring out what weapons an enemy has is tedium. This results in combat being a crap-shot of whether you or the enemy has the magically combo.I've been playing this all day: major thoughts are
(1) the fleet power rating is a lie. I've reliably lost battles to fleets half my size. I have no idea why. I'll tech up everything, enter the fight with tier III and tier IV weapons and get schooled. The closest I have to a combat a-ha moment is that smaller ships seem to eat bigger ships alive. I haven't had one succesful fight against the AI yet, they win everything.
If you are using only missiles, enemies with point defense will kill you. The same with lazors versus shields or mass drivers against high evasion enemies. Maybe something like that? Alternatively, they had weapons that sliced your defenses, like lazors against armor.
Post by: Glloyd on May 10, 2016, 06:19:00 am
Espionage is desperately needed, as is a less convoluted diplomacy system. I can't figure out asking for peace, and the only way I know how to figure out who's at war with me seems way to obtuse for it to be the intended method.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 10, 2016, 06:28:51 am
Regarding boxing in, there are different spawning setting for civilizations. Random, cluster and close or something like that. Cluster is the default setting; meaning civilizations start in clusters of a few species/empires. You could try the random spawning for more early breathing room. I think they wanted to ensure early conflict with the cluster default spawning or something.
The game certainly needs more political stuff, both internal and external, but hopefully we will get that in the future.
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 10, 2016, 06:59:58 am
You're ight about the planet limit. It bothers me that putting 20 planets into a sector has no negative effects for the sector that I can see, but I can't have 6 planets under my direct control without losin 10% of y energy.You can mod the planet limit I believe, but i'd think it would be pretty tedious paging through 20+ planets upgrading buildings yourself like some kind of real-estate developer when you should be running an empire
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 10, 2016, 07:08:03 am
i'd think it would be pretty tedious paging through 20+ planets upgrading buildings yourself like some kind of real-estate developer when you should be running an empireIt worked in EU4, sort of. Apart from the lag.
I think system limit makes more sense than planet limit, myself. Having a limit to the number of (colonised) systems a sector can hold would also be reasonable; assuming they up the sector limit a bit.
Post by: Catastrophic lolcats on May 10, 2016, 07:08:48 am
Post by: Teneb on May 10, 2016, 07:16:13 am
Post by: Majestic7 on May 10, 2016, 07:17:23 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 10, 2016, 07:19:02 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 10, 2016, 07:24:55 am
It's part of the scissor-paper-rock balance they've got going on. On paper it doesn't seem too bad, it gives crafty nations that specialises their weapons against their enemies a better chance. However the system quickly breaks apart when you're reminded that there's no espionage system and figuring out what weapons an enemy has is tedium. This results in combat being a crap-shot of whether you or the enemy has the magically combo.RAPID WARTIME ADAPTION
Or alternatively, try to maintain an even spread of rock, laser, missile and when encountering a space foe, upgrading your obsolete fleets whilst your current ones/stations hold the foe at bay?
That or test the waters first
Post by: Knave on May 10, 2016, 09:08:09 am
Post by: umiman on May 10, 2016, 09:21:47 am
Thoughts:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
BRB going to play for another 10 hours.
Post by: Sirbug on May 10, 2016, 09:37:03 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 10, 2016, 09:44:46 am
Played for about 10 hours.
Thoughts:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
BRB going to play for another 10 hours.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I really hoped systems would be like counties in CKII. What we got is unbearably confusing.Yes
Post by: Biowraith on May 10, 2016, 10:31:24 am
Is there a way to see a list of possible colony candidates? Or are you just looking through the systems to see which one appeals to you?There's not a list, unfortunately.
However, in the bottom right corner, there's a square icon for "Details Mapmode". If you tick that, when viewing the galaxy map any system with a habitable planet will have what I think is a globe icon next to the star. If you've not surveyed the planet, it'll be grey. If you have it'll either be red (you can't currently colonise there), green (you have a race with that planet type preference in your empire), or yellow (you have a race with that can colonise there, but it's not a preferred type). If you have a colony ship selected, I think the colours update to reflect specifically the race on that ship.
It's not as good as an actual list, but I find you can generally spot the green and/or yellow ones without too much effort.
(and I really don't know what Details Mapmode isn't on by default, playing without it on is a pain)
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 10, 2016, 10:36:14 am
Quote
(and I really don't know what Details Mapmode isn't on by default, playing without it on is a pain)
I play with it off, you can toggle it easily by pressing ALT
Post by: Aklyon on May 10, 2016, 11:07:20 am
Also, someone added in a basic play as androids mod.
Post by: umiman on May 10, 2016, 11:29:07 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 10, 2016, 11:37:26 am
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 10, 2016, 11:46:54 am
Post by: Aklyon on May 10, 2016, 11:51:22 am
I wonder, if going full missiles will ever end up awful for me.Point Defense.
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 10, 2016, 12:02:34 pm
Yep. I ran up against a junta which used almost all missiles and torps, the light PD I had on my ships was able to handle a large portion of their fire and I trounced them. Badly. Like my 1k stack took out 3k power of their ships losing only 2-3 ships.I wonder, if going full missiles will ever end up awful for me.Point Defense.
The answer of course is to get armored torpedos or diversify, and every PD turret I carry is less damage I can put out
Post by: jhxmt on May 10, 2016, 12:35:52 pm
At least I kept in line with my self-enforced policy of not pre-ordering anything any more.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 10, 2016, 12:39:57 pm
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 10, 2016, 01:17:02 pm
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on May 10, 2016, 01:18:01 pm
So how do I get to creating genetically modified super soldiers?
A few techs, but the real answer is: find a pre-warp civilization of warrior people, infiltrate it/kidnap some cows, wrangle them into your army and profit: I ended up with an industrial era glacier world full of strong, friendly squid people and a water world full of strong, xenophobic ratmen. So far they have rolled over all the militaries they fought (provided the accompanying fleet strips away the planetary defenses)
Post by: etgfrog on May 10, 2016, 01:39:24 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also I think I'm about to get hit with a galactic invasion.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Bluerobin on May 10, 2016, 01:53:39 pm
Also, someone added in a basic play as androids mod.Oh yeah, I've been meaning to see what mods hit first. I'm looking forward to the UI mods that will make it just a little bit better. I already see one that expands the research screen which might be really nice.
Also was talking to Aklyon about potential multiplayer sometime? Probably with a bigger group?
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 10, 2016, 02:03:37 pm
It's a bit silly, and very overpowered until they make slaves sometimes rebel
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on May 10, 2016, 02:34:31 pm
Currently sitting at 91 enslaved alien pops. I use them to make new colony ships and send them off, still enslaved, to colonize a planet my people don't like.
It's a bit silly, and very overpowered until they make slaves sometimes rebel
I have a ton of slaves: I took decadent at char gen and have to make sure every planet has either a slave or a thrall of my own people. I still haven't figured out how to move populations around though. Is that even possible? I've seen emigration happen spontaneously, but I cant seem to say, empty out a conquered world and send all the inhabitants to slave across my empire.
Post by: Furtuka on May 10, 2016, 02:43:04 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Biowraith on May 10, 2016, 02:48:18 pm
I still haven't figured out how to move populations around though. Is that even possible?
You can move your pops around, at the cost of influence. First you have to make sure you have the correct Resettlement policy setting. Second you need to have a Planetary Administration building on both the source and the destination colonies. Then you go to the pop you want to move, click on it, and click the Resettle button (it's next to the Enslave and Purge buttons) which will bring up the interface for moving pops (via click+drag) from one colony to another.
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 10, 2016, 03:09:03 pm
I'm up to 149 slave pops now. They officially outnumber my primary species 2:1.Currently sitting at 91 enslaved alien pops. I use them to make new colony ships and send them off, still enslaved, to colonize a planet my people don't like.
It's a bit silly, and very overpowered until they make slaves sometimes rebel
I have a ton of slaves: I took decadent at char gen and have to make sure every planet has either a slave or a thrall of my own people. I still haven't figured out how to move populations around though. Is that even possible? I've seen emigration happen spontaneously, but I cant seem to say, empty out a conquered world and send all the inhabitants to slave across my empire.
Post by: etgfrog on May 10, 2016, 03:09:55 pm
Post by: Malus on May 10, 2016, 03:52:59 pm
The faction system really needs to be fleshed out more. Overall the game feels like it's a pretty good foundation, and with another 6 months of patches, polish, more features, a few DLCs, it could be a masterpiece. It's still the best 4X of recent years (but given the competition, that isn't saying much) and I can't wait to see what it turns into down the line.
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 10, 2016, 04:23:34 pm
Post by: umiman on May 10, 2016, 04:25:17 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So anyway, that slightly annoys me when I play.
BRB playing another 10 hours.
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 10, 2016, 04:52:22 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 10, 2016, 05:04:27 pm
I think it's fine. A bit gamey perhaps, but that's not really an issue.
Post by: Malus on May 10, 2016, 05:06:28 pm
I've... never had that problem. I just executed a war against a neighbor for 2 worlds. I smashed his fleet, didn't even get to occupy one world. I bombarded it for a bit and he surrendered at 70% warscoreWhen empires have 30+ planets each and they're in an alliance or federation, getting your warscore up is a real grind. Smashing a 7k fleet gives me something like 4 warscore. Occupying a capital gives me 6 or 7. I think the scaling is off, because you're right -- early/mid-game wars are decided very quickly.
Also, there's no separate peacing which really slows down expansion vs. an alliance.
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 10, 2016, 05:22:48 pm
Fair enough. The guy I smashed only had like 12 planetsI've... never had that problem. I just executed a war against a neighbor for 2 worlds. I smashed his fleet, didn't even get to occupy one world. I bombarded it for a bit and he surrendered at 70% warscoreWhen empires have 30+ planets each and they're in an alliance or federation, getting your warscore up is a real grind. Smashing a 7k fleet gives me something like 4 warscore. Occupying a capital gives me 6 or 7. I think the scaling is off, because you're right -- early/mid-game wars are decided very quickly.
Also, there's no separate peacing which really slows down expansion vs. an alliance.
Post by: Iituem on May 10, 2016, 06:43:58 pm
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on May 10, 2016, 06:52:21 pm
advice please
Post by: Aklyon on May 10, 2016, 07:00:14 pm
Me and my brother are playing a game.What FTLs did you pick?
It's going poorly for me. He's generally better at games (I think I could match him if I wanted to, but to do so I'd find the game boring) AND he wasn't hemmed in from the start.
He took one of my worlds (it was the only one I could colonise, it was right next to him. He decided to take it and I had 1k vs his 4k), but not before my colony ship managed to escape and start a colony south of that planet. He has yet to notice that colony, but it's somewhat limited by the presence of neolithic primitives.
Post by: etgfrog on May 10, 2016, 07:03:57 pm
Post by: Furtuka on May 10, 2016, 07:04:31 pm
Spoiler: We're all gonna die~ (click to show/hide)
(I'm the little blue blob all the way at the bottom of the picture.)
Post by: TempAcc on May 10, 2016, 07:22:18 pm
Post by: etgfrog on May 10, 2016, 07:31:08 pm
Post by: umiman on May 10, 2016, 07:51:30 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Ultimuh on May 10, 2016, 08:05:30 pm
I found a bug with a certain late game quest.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Well then, off to the Paradox Forums with you and report it.
How else would the devs know of this bug?
Post by: Glloyd on May 10, 2016, 08:34:32 pm
I found a bug with a certain late game quest.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I had the opposite issue,
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Oh, and apparently the AI will never defeat the Unbidden on it's own, and some people are saying that AI will never leave Federations, which is kinda lame. There's no way to get them to leave either AFAIK, even if they like you way better than they like their other federation members.
Post by: redwallzyl on May 10, 2016, 10:03:23 pm
unrelated i found this on the paradox forums.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Cyroth on May 10, 2016, 10:34:37 pm
There is a militaristic xenophobic fallen empire that more or less spawned (I'm 99.99% sure it wasn't there before, I had everything surveyed) in the middle of my wonderful Peoples Republic and immediately declared war because I'm to close to its borders.
It absolutely refuses to go anywhere near its declared war goals, instead floating around my 50 planet empire and blowing up every shipyard as soon as it is finished. That "war" has been going on for 40 years now, 30 of which the FE was at 100% war score.
Since I have exactly 0 ships and can't build any shipyards all the little one and two star nations around me (all of which used to be protectorates of me) started to declare war on me and they're slowly picking me apart.
Is there any way to surrender to the FE and lose the 4 planets it demands so I can defend myself against all the other nations?
EDIT:
Found it, doh :/
Post by: Glloyd on May 10, 2016, 10:45:57 pm
Post by: Man of Paper on May 10, 2016, 10:56:54 pm
Started a Let's Play (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=158060.0) of this; Fanatic Materialist toads with a win condition of starting the Machine Rebellion. For Great Caliban!
Posting itt because I smelled someone reference Choice of Robots.
Also because I forgot when this was going to be released, and am now mad that I need to wait until Thursday to get it.
Post by: Aklyon on May 10, 2016, 11:12:09 pm
Found out the hard way that warphole travel is absolutely fucked. I don't know what triggered it but i'm 160 years in and suddenly my fleets stopped warping properly. They'll path through systems that don't have warp generators, and then get stuck there trying to move to the next destination forever. Goddamn Paradox.Are they trying to go through allied generators? Theres a known bug for that.
Post by: Glloyd on May 10, 2016, 11:19:05 pm
Found out the hard way that warphole travel is absolutely fucked. I don't know what triggered it but i'm 160 years in and suddenly my fleets stopped warping properly. They'll path through systems that don't have warp generators, and then get stuck there trying to move to the next destination forever. Goddamn Paradox.Are they trying to go through allied generators? Theres a known bug for that.
They were at first, and then they started trying to go through systems that didn't have any warp gens at all.
Post by: umiman on May 10, 2016, 11:43:44 pm
Also I don't get how the AI can outresearch me even though I have every single tech trait, tech government, and building there is. Not to mention I'm 5x the size of the next largest empire. Is it cheaper for smaller empires or something? I know for sure these aren't the superior empires as they actually came about later than me and practically all the existing superior empires are dust.
Edit: Turns out that that's the case. Your tech takes more to research the more pop you have.
Post by: Glloyd on May 11, 2016, 12:09:14 am
Post by: umiman on May 11, 2016, 12:16:30 am
The early-mid game is pretty solid, but the late game is so buggy it's barely playable. It feels like they barely tested the late/endgame stuff.That's what I'm thinking too. It's pretty shitty at this point in the game.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 11, 2016, 01:13:19 am
I think the early game exploration is the most fun I've had in 4X, but the mid/late game needs work. Basically politics and diplomacy need more content. Likewise, we should be able to do more with pre-FTL civilizations. As I see it, you can just study them or conquer them or advance them techologically. The last doesn't seem to have many benefits though, you just get another competitor on the stage and what is the point of that? Especially if it appears right on your territory.
So far, I've had bugs with some quests and the whole thing about space monsters/pirates getting strange tags. Which in turn can fuck up quests. No gamestoppers though, just the kind of stuff that is bound to go wrong with a big release. I'm sure they are fixed soon.
Mind you, I still think this is an awesome game, but I see a huge potential for more.
Post by: Ultimuh on May 11, 2016, 01:26:59 am
Post by: Biowraith on May 11, 2016, 03:05:22 am
For take 2 I've rejigged their traits/ethos a little, removing Decadent ( with the self-imposed restriction of only enslaving xenos it was too micromanagey) and swapping Collectivist for Fanatic Xenophobe. Started at the start of a spiral arm in the core, with another xenophobe empire almost directly bordering me. Fortunately wormhole tech makes skipping to the next arm fairly easy, where I found a lot of open space to explore and expand into.
Less fortunately, that open space is bordered by a Xenophobe fallen empire on one side, and a Xenophile fallen empire on the other. I've already got some border friction with the former, while the latter will be an issue when we start enslaving people.
On the plus side, we just found an anomaly quest chain that is very appropriate for our theme:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
(edit: and the end of the chain is bugged :( )
Post by: Sirbug on May 11, 2016, 03:28:44 am
Second, frontier posts keep leeching my influence even as I colonize the system. As they seem to have no effect, I hope those things would be transformed into observation posts automatically.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 11, 2016, 03:38:12 am
If you click the mark on the lower right corner, at the left corner of the interface bar, it shows more information on the map. This includes mineral info etc and green planet picture next to stars with habitable planets.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 11, 2016, 03:47:05 am
Like the basic ones - defensive and aggressive. One being to charge at the enemy + damage buffs with the other staying in formation + defense buffs.
So say I wanted something like a tank, I would pick aggressive right? To draw out fire? While my more delicate ships/ships doing more damage remain on defensive?
If it was just the behavior it would make seem to make sense, but with the buffs the intended purposes are a bit unclear.
Post by: Ultimuh on May 11, 2016, 04:11:49 am
Both picked hyperlanes because the Youtubers we both watched never seemed to pick them. Don't think I will again because they're too restrictive.I myself, do like the Hyperlanes. Especially when you force everyone else to use it as well.
This way there will be no surprise attack from gods knows where.
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 11, 2016, 04:18:30 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 11, 2016, 04:23:53 am
Spoiler: I've already run out of worlds to colonize (click to show/hide)
Post by: Majestic7 on May 11, 2016, 04:24:13 am
Post by: Ultimuh on May 11, 2016, 04:38:49 am
I like wormholes on paper, but they are buggy so I haven't used them yet. Basically if you have allies or vassals or protectorates who use wormholes as well, you are going to get screwed. Fleets plan routes using their wormholes (which is WAD), but they are not actually used correctly (which is the bug) so your ships get stuck.*cough* https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/hotfix-1-0-1-released-checksum-4d15-not-for-problem-reports.928210/ (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/hotfix-1-0-1-released-checksum-4d15-not-for-problem-reports.928210/)
Quote
- Fixed fleets getting stuck trying to use wormhole stations belonging to other empires
Post by: Neyvn on May 11, 2016, 05:01:02 am
Post by: Majestic7 on May 11, 2016, 05:51:05 am
The progenitor homewolrd thing is another bug, I think.
Post by: Sirbug on May 11, 2016, 05:51:41 am
Post by: Stealtharcadia on May 11, 2016, 06:06:54 am
After that I had a lot of catching up to do. Space Pope's neighbors were way ahead of us (also materialist avian jerks) and my neighbors above me were even more powerful. Most of my midgame was playing catch up and fighting wars against Space Pope's neighbors. Eventually I liberated half of those avian systems and put them in our alliance so the old empire would quit messing with us.
During that time I expanded above me. The two big bad civs above me started duking it out. I picked a side by sending an embassy to one and rivaling another. Luckily I picked correctly because the one I sent and embassy to crippled the other one, so I set up shop with a nice friendly buffer state and quite a few systems to myself.
Finally back in the groove and out of all those damn wars for once, I decide to invest in expanding below me so I can hit some appreciable levels of infrastructure. The outer rim only has a fallen empire and lots of colonizable planets. So I was stoked to get really powerful.
Then came the signals from outside the galaxy. I had just established my second planet on the outer rim and was working on a third. I didn't even realize they were landing RIGHT where I was expanding until it was too late. I was playing with my brother so we weren't pausing. Next thing I know my outer rim sector is crawling with multiple 15-24k stacks of these zerg fuckers.
I scramble my puny 12k fleet together before I realize how many of them there are. Once I did I immediately abandoned the sector. Billions were lost. The fleet I had already felt like a drain on my resources, I didn't think I had a chance. I hoped they would go elsewhere or calm down once they took the outer rim.
They didn't. In fact, they began attacking one of my core sectors as well as pushing into the FALLEN EMPIRE. If they couldn't hold them back, how the hell could I? It's not like I've been super ahead of my peers at any point in the game. My allies didn't do shit either. Space Pope and Bird Zealots decided they'd sit this one out (I made you who you are now, dammit!). Needless to say, I was spamming my build queue.
I managed to murder my resources and get my fleet just barely over 16k. I found one of their smaller 15k fleets in a nearby system and decided to try my luck there. The battle was scary to watch but I won with minimal losses. Sure, I thought, I can take a small fleet but there's no way I could face those 20k fleets.
Luckily my brother wanted in on the action. His empire was much more developed than mine so we traded military access and sent in a 12k fleet to help. The fighting was tough and I lost a ton of territory but we managed to stop their advance. I'm bleeding energy credits like crazy but I managed to get my fleet up to 20k.
Can't reclaim the infested world's though. We tried bombing them, doesn't work. There might be an event or tech that helps me out here later. For now, I am the gate keeper of the galaxy. The one who keeps these monsters from growing out of control.
Funny enough, my starting position has always felt like a chokepoint. I loathed it most of the game, but now it's the only thing that keeps the galaxy from falling apart.
Post by: Glloyd on May 11, 2016, 06:28:34 am
So how do I not get owned? Outnumbered, outgunned, I don't know how do they get 2K firepower when I have 500 at the cap.
Colonize more planets and grow your pop, it ups your naval capacity. There's an early game hump you've got to get over with your navy, and then midgame you'll find the cap is increasing too fast for you to even get anywhere near maxing it, especially with all the capacity techs you'll be hitting. I think my cap's 700 now and I'm sitting somewhere around 600. As for ship power, make sure to not only update your ship designs but to also upgrade your fleets at your spaceports.
Post by: Biowraith on May 11, 2016, 07:39:54 am
Post by: etgfrog on May 11, 2016, 07:56:13 am
Can't reclaim the infested world's though. We tried bombing them, doesn't work. There might be an event or tech that helps me out here later. For now, I am the gate keeper of the galaxy. The one who keeps these monsters from growing out of control.The only way to get rid of them is to let them expand. I'm actually serious about that.
Funny enough, my starting position has always felt like a chokepoint. I loathed it most of the game, but now it's the only thing that keeps the galaxy from falling apart.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 11, 2016, 08:08:31 am
Post by: Exerosp on May 11, 2016, 09:58:10 am
I assumed advanced start meant Fallen Empires, then I removed them since i'm a wuss that want an equal start against AIs...So how do I not get owned? Outnumbered, outgunned, I don't know how do they get 2K firepower when I have 500 at the cap.You been upgrading your ships and getting weapons techs?
Were the other guys advanced start?
Post by: etgfrog on May 11, 2016, 11:23:12 am
There bugs regarding the end-game threats (not spoilering) that make getting rid of them even harder than it should be. Should be fixed in the next hotfix, I suppose. Part of that is that AI empires don't fight them.Ok, it would seem you are correct, the event finally progressed but another empire got the solution, now they are sitting on it and I'm assuming doing nothing since they haven't even taken the system where they got it from.
I just found out you can stop the purge from happening, once you do the planet will never flip to the scourge.
Post by: Cruxador on May 11, 2016, 12:18:00 pm
Also, turns out you should really keep a nice standing navy instead of continuously thinking "I'll build it up later". Saving on upkeep isn't worth decades of costly war while you build up a fleet on a secret backwater world that they don't know about.
Wow they've really flubbed that one. RIP PDS, you will be missed.(Paradox then goes on to make more money in the first two days than they made in the first week of each of their other games combined)
OK yeah that's pretty lame. Hopefully fan response makes them reconsider sooner rather than later.Personally as a fan I'm prioritizing that after both map modes and making genetic modification usable for xenophobes. And, you know, making xenophobia worth investing in in general. Right now it seems to be only a detriment.
I really love the feel and ascetic of it all!Yeah, Spiritualist is pretty good.
I didn't know you could build sectors up to a couple minutes ago. :-[There's a tutorial droid for a reason.
I like wormholes myself.I'm finding them to be frustrating to maintain during wartime.
Post by: umiman on May 11, 2016, 12:44:25 pm
1. The AI will constantly and randomly move your pops around every few seconds for no reason even when the entire planet is completely full. So it will put slaves in science buildings, etc.
2. The AI can not upgrade capital buildings by itself because it doesn't have any influence. Since it can't do this it can't upgrade any other buildings either unless you manually go in and upgrade them. And that means you have to remove the planet from the sector, upgrade it, and put it back in.
3. If you put a strategic resource in a sector, you lose access to it and vice versa.
4. The AI will not follow the "respect tile bonus" button and will just do what it wants whether you select it or not.
-----------
By the way, I've noticed that fighters and bombers don't seem to do anything. They just kinda float around the carrier itself. What are your guys experience with them?
Post by: Furtuka on May 11, 2016, 12:52:10 pm
Post by: umiman on May 11, 2016, 12:56:08 pm
Actually I've seen mine upgrade the reconstructed ship to capitol building. It just takes a crapton of time for them to get around to it. Unless my memory is derping.If I were to guess they probably get influence at a snail's pace or something? I'm just reporting what the official forum is saying.
Post by: Wolock on May 11, 2016, 12:58:14 pm
Post by: Wysthric on May 11, 2016, 12:58:52 pm
Post by: Baijiu on May 11, 2016, 01:08:29 pm
TLDR; use sectors liberally and sprawl is good!
Post by: Karlito on May 11, 2016, 01:16:08 pm
Heads up there are serious bugs with sectors right now:
I'd noticed my sectors were terrible at managing my slave pops. Didn't know about this building upgrades though.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 11, 2016, 01:24:16 pm
Post by: umiman on May 11, 2016, 01:27:21 pm
I'm playing an Ironman game and discovered that the AI is pretty buggy when it comes to huge empires that are mostly sectored. AI only bothered to try and conquer my core worlds, so I just waited 20 years (!!!) and used far off planets that I got from integrating observed pre-ftl species to build navy after navy which I then lost to the invaders. Eventually I could white peace because the war went on for too long. They invaded twice before I just switched from monarchy to democracy and they quit invading. Stopped playing now, because I have over 800 pops and the game is just too damn slow.Yeah I noticed that too. I've only ever had the AI attempt to attack me once (I'm surrounded by buffer empires who are my allies). But when they actually tried, they sent their fleet soaring through all my space for in-game years before they reached my capital. I was like "wtf dude? Are you lost?".
TLDR; use sectors liberally and sprawl is good!
I've also noticed that when you're in an alliance, your allies will stick to you like glue and won't do anything on their own. Even if it's their own war that you got dragged into.
----
I also just learned that you get different tech options depending on your government and ethos. I was wondering why some guys have so much better weapons than me and why I'm just getting stuff for exploration and buildings and stuff.
Post by: Zangi on May 11, 2016, 01:38:49 pm
I see a lot of complaints about hitting a point where you can't expand peaceably anymore in this thread... what comes after?
Also, mentions about AI sticking to their alliance/federation through thick and thin, despite things, sounds... bad.
Post by: Cruxador on May 11, 2016, 02:02:31 pm
Actually I've seen mine upgrade the reconstructed ship to capitol building. It just takes a crapton of time for them to get around to it. Unless my memory is derping.This was my experience too. I assumed that the resource output calculations didn't find it to be worthwhile but it was failing to take into account that upgrading would result in migrants.
I don't think the reason is slow influence generation, I think it just doesn't use influence or has some other system, because in my case, at first none in the system upgraded by themselves then they all did it at once.
I see a lot of complaints about hitting a point where you can't expand peaceably anymore in this thread... what comes after?War.
Post by: Zangi on May 11, 2016, 02:13:07 pm
Ah, so less CK-like and more 4x? Wants me some elaboration.I see a lot of complaints about hitting a point where you can't expand peaceably anymore in this thread... what comes after?War.
Post by: redwallzyl on May 11, 2016, 02:15:49 pm
Post by: Cruxador on May 11, 2016, 02:22:35 pm
Ah, so less CK-like and more 4x? Wants me some elaboration.In CK, you also use war to expand. You can also choose to not expand and just work on infrastructure if you like. Although it's very 4x-like in that you want a big navy or else your enemies will smell weakness and attack, and if you have a big navy you might as well use it.
I'm getting all kinds or rare techs like +15 happiness building and a +10 happiness and +5 habitability building. Super good. I also got a weired one called private colonization ships or something with a cheaper colony ship that has apparently random ethos pops. Also a colonial terminal with big discounts and spread up colony shop building. I'm definitely seeing a theme here. All vary cool though. I just can resist shiny purple techs.I'm also getting a lot of rare techs, but on a different set of themes. I think it depends on your ethos.
Post by: umiman on May 11, 2016, 02:23:36 pm
Once you finish exploring the galaxy, your borders will probably be touching everyone else inappropriately. Then alliances and federations will pop up. You'll probably get invited to a few. Then people fight big massive wars that lasts years because everything is so huge.Ah, so less CK-like and more 4x? Wants me some elaboration.I see a lot of complaints about hitting a point where you can't expand peaceably anymore in this thread... what comes after?War.
At the same time you'll work on the long-term quests that you can finally do.
After awhile someone will fuck up a tech or something or some dudes might go "HYUK HYUK HYUK" at you.
That's basically it. Just preface everything with "it might be buggy".
I['m also getting a hell of a lot of lag in the lategame. The lag is primarily the reason why I stopped.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 11, 2016, 02:25:20 pm
I've played for a little under 30 hours in my first game and colonized huge swathes of space. Still have more colonization to do. It mainly depends on how the early game goes; sometimes people get boxed in by larger powers, sometimes you break out and everything is good. Inevitably if enough time passes everything will be colonized and then it turns into EU4/ CK2.Ah, so less CK-like and more 4x? Wants me some elaboration.I see a lot of complaints about hitting a point where you can't expand peaceably anymore in this thread... what comes after?War.
So... how feature rich/barren is the post-colonization phase of the game?It depends, really. You can start playing the game like EU where its all about interacting with other empires, mainly through conquering them. Sometimes crisis will happen (like the Unbidden everyone keeps talking about) but that's not a sure thing. Some of it feels a little half baked right now. Alliances and federations are a bit... off at the moment. Like they could use a little cleaning up and a few extra features before they're really going to start making the game more fun.
I see a lot of complaints about hitting a point where you can't expand peaceably anymore in this thread... what comes after?
Also, mentions about AI sticking to their alliance/federation through thick and thin, despite things, sounds... bad.
There's some fun internal stuff you can do with pops. You can genetically engineer them to be different, build robots to populate worlds, and do all kinds of stuff with migration/resettlement/enslavement/purges. The only real use of all this is to incrementally increase efficiency or to open up new worlds for colonization. Beyond that you can have fun role-playing the kind of civ you want to be.
Post by: Cruxador on May 11, 2016, 02:32:12 pm
There's some fun internal stuff you can do with pops."fun" for someone's definition. It all has flaws.
Quote
You can genetically engineer them to be different,But for xenophobes, this will screw you, since they count themselves as xenos.
Quote
build robots to populate worldsWhich is needlessly expensive and thus rarely useful
Quote
migration/resettlementBasically book keeping, in practice
Quote
enslavementMostly useful for cheesing out of faction revolts
Quote
purgesI haven't found any practical use at all for this.
Post by: andrea on May 11, 2016, 02:45:34 pm
QuotepurgesI haven't found any practical use at all for this.
well, they are a great way to manage planets conquered in war, when the ethics of you and the people you conquered are radically diverse. I am playing a game in which I am not purging anyone and conquering fanatic pacifist with fanatic militarist was no fun.
Meanwhile, in another game I am playing I purged all the pops from conquered planets, drew in some fresh ones who don't hate me and they are productive much earlier than the unpurged ones
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 11, 2016, 02:47:20 pm
In the end I just had an empire witth a bit more pop than it would have otherwise with the extreme majority of the empire very unhappy and a large portion unable to research. The extra pop isn't even that useful as I don't find myself needing it.
Post by: Xardalas on May 11, 2016, 02:59:49 pm
I actually don't get he point of enslavement in terms of general use. When I tried a fanatic xenophobic xeno-slavery empire. It just ended up hurting me because it tanks the happiness of everyone involved with a research debuff to slaves for added effect.
In the end I just had an empire witth a bit more pop than it would have otherwise with the extreme majority of the empire very unhappy and a large portion unable to research. The extra pop isn't even that useful as I don't find myself needing it.
I use em to control population factions. Take over planets, enslave all the pop. Set the planet to make mostly energy and mineral credits. Slowly turn the core worlds that have your main population into nothing but research centers and enough farms to not starve. If literally everyone else in your empire is enslaved aside form your primary race and you have a low ethics diversion, you can pretty much ignore all factions.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 11, 2016, 03:01:15 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 11, 2016, 03:12:46 pm
How in the name of the golden throne, ratings are calculated? It shows, that my enemy is equal to me in technology and superiour in naval power, but my glorius destroyers with impenetratable shields, giant torpedoes, regenerating hulls, plasma cannons and advanced computers using pinnacle of technology engines to dodge 40 % of the shots dont really look equal in technology or power to swarms of ugly xeno basic corvettes with red laser, autocannon and 50 shield without any high tech computing power or engine to dodge giant torpedoes.
Is there way of increasing chance of getting some tech? Despite having all prerequisites sentient ai tech never shows up ;-;7
Post by: umiman on May 11, 2016, 03:15:44 pm
Is there way of increasing chance of getting some tech? Despite having all prerequisites sentient ai tech never shows up ;-;7Yeah, certain ethos and government types get different tech priorities. Militarist tend to get more weapons. Materialists tend to get more research. Etc. It's stupid that the game doesn't tell you.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 11, 2016, 03:26:12 pm
How in the name of the golden throne, ratings are calculated? It shows, that my enemy is equal to me in technology and superiour in naval power, but my glorius destroyers with impenetratable shields, giant torpedoes, regenerating hulls, plasma cannons and advanced computers using pinnacle of technology engines to dodge 40 % of the shots dont really look equal in technology or power to swarms of ugly xeno basic corvettes with red laser, autocannon and 50 shield without any high tech computing power or engine to dodge giant torpedoes.Naval power is calculated as the sum power of all your fleets, which is a very imprecise rating but more-or-less accurate assuming that neither of you has any special advantages or counters. AKA its never actually accurate but you can't quite tell in advance which side will be favored.
Fleet size limit should be obvious.
This is a guess, but tech rating is the sum of the cost of all research a nation has done. Not sure if it includes non-military or not. That means that if one civ has researched a variety of options while another has stayed focused on a single path of weapons development, they'll have "equal" tech as the game counts it. It possible that the AI has better tech than you know and they haven't upgraded their ships to use said tech yet; not sure how rigorous the AI is about keeping its fleets up to date.
Post by: Xardalas on May 11, 2016, 03:26:53 pm
Is there way of increasing chance of getting some tech? Despite having all prerequisites sentient ai tech never shows up ;-;7Yeah, certain ethos and government types get different tech priorities. Militarist tend to get more weapons. Materialists tend to get more research. Etc. It's stupid that the game doesn't tell you.
Also, looking at the wiki, your scientists traits can give better chances of getting certain types of tech.
Post by: Aklyon on May 11, 2016, 04:09:38 pm
I actually don't get he point of enslavement in terms of general use. When I tried a fanatic xenophobic xeno-slavery empire. It just ended up hurting me because it tanks the happiness of everyone involved with a research debuff to slaves for added effect.The key afaik so far seem to be xenophobic is the wrong direction for slavers. Fanatic Collectivist lose no happiness for slavery, regardless of if they are slaves or non-slave researchers, energy producers. The penalty you get for that ethos is vastly limited governmental type selection, and people start to complain if you let them drift too far with too many slaves on the planet.
In the end I just had an empire witth a bit more pop than it would have otherwise with the extreme majority of the empire very unhappy and a large portion unable to research. The extra pop isn't even that useful as I don't find myself needing it.
Though I just finished a rare orbital mind control laser tech, so if i could afford it, I could push them back with -30% ethics drift.
Post by: umiman on May 11, 2016, 05:02:06 pm
I would ignore the score but I'm sure some people would raise arms about it.
This game feels like Sengoku.
Post by: Elfeater on May 11, 2016, 05:10:25 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on May 11, 2016, 05:24:10 pm
I have to say, the IGN review is pretty spot on: http://ca.ign.com/articles/2016/05/09/stellaris-review
I would ignore the score but I'm sure some people would raise arms about it.
This game feels like Sengoku.
This is exactly what I was afraid would happen at launch with this game. Hopefully they'll patch it or at least put out some decent DLC that makes it worth getting.
Post by: Ultimuh on May 11, 2016, 05:27:56 pm
But who am I to say what you should or shouldn't do.
Post by: umiman on May 11, 2016, 05:30:00 pm
I would take IGN reviews with a grain of salt.Here's what Paradox says you should do: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1solvon
But who am I to say what you should or shouldn't do.
Post by: Retropunch on May 11, 2016, 05:44:22 pm
Whilst I've really, really enjoyed it - more than pretty much any 4x since GalCiv2 - it really, really feels like Paradox have designed this game from the ground up with DLC in mind. I'm more than happy for bits they can't add into the main game into it, but this goes too far. There seem to be whole parts of the game which may as well have a 'coming to stores near you' written on them.
Regardless, I found the early game about a billion times more interesting than most, and I found the other races to be pretty memorable and like..actual races rather than just 'green blob' and 'red blob with nasty ships'. All the complaints about midgame I sort of don't agree with - it just gives you freedom with which you actually have to DO something - you can slog away, or you can start radically changing up your society, or you can go on a crazy crusade.
Overall, I'd give it a 6.3 too. Whilst it's by far the best 4x game in recent times (and destined to probably become the best one ever honestly) I cannot, and will not, forgive the blatant DLCing and sloppy quality of life stuff. CKII and stuff weren't great at launch, but they seemed at least like a coherent product - this seems MADE for DLC. Urgh.
Post by: BFEL on May 11, 2016, 05:59:53 pm
They actually did this in the Blorg stream at one point. Though personally I haven't had much luck with it. The rather random nature of scientist traits combined with not being able to "refresh" the new scientist tab means its basically full random.Is there way of increasing chance of getting some tech? Despite having all prerequisites sentient ai tech never shows up ;-;7Yeah, certain ethos and government types get different tech priorities. Militarist tend to get more weapons. Materialists tend to get more research. Etc. It's stupid that the game doesn't tell you.
Also, looking at the wiki, your scientists traits can give better chances of getting certain types of tech.
Post by: Sartain on May 11, 2016, 06:13:34 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 11, 2016, 06:30:18 pm
I mean you *can* refresh the scientist tab... you just got pay a bit of influence :PThey actually did this in the Blorg stream at one point. Though personally I haven't had much luck with it. The rather random nature of scientist traits combined with not being able to "refresh" the new scientist tab means its basically full random.Is there way of increasing chance of getting some tech? Despite having all prerequisites sentient ai tech never shows up ;-;7Yeah, certain ethos and government types get different tech priorities. Militarist tend to get more weapons. Materialists tend to get more research. Etc. It's stupid that the game doesn't tell you.
Also, looking at the wiki, your scientists traits can give better chances of getting certain types of tech.
Post by: Greiger on May 11, 2016, 07:17:33 pm
Fortunately we ended up observing some kind of an armed truce for a few years. Long enough for me to find that I am boxed in by that guy. With only 2 habitable planets to my name, unless I can find some way to jump the galactic gap to one of the other arms. Fortunately he is also boxed in, by someone who likes me quite a bit. Unfortunately they also like my rival quite a bit and are pacifists anyway.
Despite my best efforts my rival out techs me and out builds me. I figure I can counter his weapon or defensive choice, but I can't seem to find any way at all to figure out what style of weapons they are using to properly counter it, since I can't enter their territory to scan their ships, and can't find a way to just plop a ship down on the border to scan their territory.
Eventually war is declared. I picked two weapon options and 2 defensive options since I didn't know what I was up against and I was worried recearching all 3 would just make them all equally garbage. Lasers and missiles, and shields and armor. They picked missiles. Welp, my defensive recearch is pointless. Maybe my big navy makes up for it... Nope. Twice my military strength. And that's just the first fleet. Welp, gg.
I managed to try to put up one fight in the home system. I caught them warping in to my home planet with my entire battle fleet there. I move my fleet to be right on top of them when they warp in, since I noticed that when ships warp into a system they can't fight back for a good long while. But apparently that is not so.
So 2 questions. 1) How to a gather intel on a potential opponent before war starts? And second, how was my opponent able to immediately open fire when they warped into my system, when from my experience with bandits, my ships cannot fire for a good 10 or 15 seconds after warping? (that last bit was actually a little embarrassing, I was so pleased with myself that I audibly yelled out "surprise motherf*cker!" Only to get immediately wrecked.)
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 11, 2016, 07:32:50 pm
Rule 2: DO NOT ATTACK SPACE COWS
Rule 3: WHAT TERRIBLE FATE HAVE YOU WROUGHT? DO NOT ATTACK THE SPACE COWS!
I sat down to play Stellaris, I thought I was disappointed. Then I checked the time and realized it was 1 in the morning. This is addiction, this is crack, this is what happens when Alpha Centauri and Hearts of Iron have a bastard baby together.
I can't believe the game actually managed to make me feel guilty for something.
I had three Earth-like planets. I was boxed in along an arm of the galactic spiral by some peaceful hippy avians to the galactic northwest and some federation traders to the southeast. Through aggressive satellite constructions all of my domain was efficiently harvested, but my domain could expand no further. The pacifist hippy birds who I had spent so long with peace and mutual cooperation did not realize I was eyeing their multitude of Earthlike planets with envy - the naive bird people didn't even care for them, preferring desert roosts.
Lacking advanced weapons, or shielding, or armour, the humanoid navy was comprised of big fucking destroyers fitted with big fucking missiles, and two dozen corvettes and salvaged alien warships. The embassy to the hippies was withdrawn. After buying out their mineral reserves, trade was cut. When war was declared the avians sent only one diplomatic message:
'Why?'
Warfleet One struck quickly into the underbelly of the avian Empire, destroying orbital stations and military outposts alike, paving way for the planetary invasion force. With the first planet subdued, I assembled all of my warfleets to a research sector, leaving a clear open path directly to my capital open. The avians took the bait and their technologically superior fleet found itself caught between Warfleet One and the Unity Spacestation - destroyers rolling out of their docks and straight into battle to replace the grueling losses that were inflicted upon the human forces. By the conclusion of the battle of Deneb, most of the human fleet was destroyed, Unity Spacestation was a sneeze away from destruction - but of the avians, total annihilation was achieved.
When a reinvigorated human destroyer fleet arrived above their skies, they surrendered to avoid more bloodshed of their kin.
Their kin were superior in societal management, in scientific development and in war. They began forming a powerful faction for rebellion, sabotaging our facilities and spreading corruption throughout the planetary government. Resettlement was impossible, integration failed, to avoid facing total insurrection from the planetary level at a time where the earthlike planets were being settled, reaction was severe.
Their robot serfs and friends were dismantled. Their people were purged. Their once proud cities became empty bowls of dust.
The naive avians renounced pacifism that day.
What was supposed to have been a quick war to secure the Earthlike planets turned into a bitter feud between the avians and humans, the humans forced to pursue and exterminate ever-Westwards the fleeing refugees, as the superior avian Empire could not be allowed to recover and seek revenge.
Their survivors are in distant trails, outposts elsewhere - soon I will take their capital and begin pushing for their strategic resources, until only the farthest corners of their Empire gives them safety. Once they reach the borders of the great celestial Empire I dare not approach, I will leave them be. Their people under my watch will be sterilized and resettled until slowly, none remain - the end goal of purging is the same but now it is efficient. I may send their robot friends with them to comfort them in the end.
I look at the now formidable fleet of battlecruisers emerging from my spaceports, my first voidcraft carriers entering service, my colony ships now taking over the tropical worlds - I wonder if it was all worth it?
Post by: tryrar on May 11, 2016, 08:03:58 pm
Other than that, I've already put in 33 hours according to steam, so safe to say I'm loving this a hell of a lot :D
Post by: redwallzyl on May 11, 2016, 08:23:11 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 11, 2016, 08:43:54 pm
When my brother declared war on pacifistic xenophobes, their response was 'B-but why?'. He attempted to white peace out because he felt bad (He had overwhelming force compared to them) but they refused and called him a coward.I can sympathize with your brother, the Avians have just formed a federation and have an independent Empire now larger than mine. Seems getting close to the Celestial Empire did them some good.
After that he forgot his guilt.
Also found a solution to the conundrum to finding out what your enemy's geared up with.
If they're in sensor range of your planets you can zoom in and see all their missiles, shield generators, plasma chuckers and so on. (http://i.imgur.com/u08dg4d.jpg) Looks like I'm gonna be fielding some point defence corvettes to take the first wave in >:)
Post by: EuchreJack on May 11, 2016, 09:11:46 pm
I sometimes cringe at how much I've paid for Crusader Kings II. But if the DLCs are of the same overall quality as the ones for Crusader Kings II, then I'll probably be happy.
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 11, 2016, 09:34:28 pm
it really, really feels like Paradox have designed this game from the ground up with DLC in mind. I'm more than happy for bits they can't add into the main game into it, but this goes too far. There seem to be whole parts of the game which may as well have a 'coming to stores near you' written on them.I can't really blame them here. DLC is their business model. I won't complain about spending ~$80 over the next few years on something that I'll (potentially) sink thousands of hours in.
I sometimes cringe at how much I've paid for Crusader Kings II. But if the DLCs are of the same overall quality as the ones for Crusader Kings II, then I'll probably be happy.We're probably looking at EUIV-style DLC (i.e. smaller and more frequent), with regular patches and so on.
Post by: Ultimuh on May 11, 2016, 10:08:35 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I wonder if changeing the "is_ironman = yes" to "is_ironman = no" would enable achievements outside of ironman mode or not..
Anyone here tried this yet?
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 11, 2016, 10:11:39 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 11, 2016, 10:59:37 pm
Tributaries were said to be usually the result of a lost war. I can't find that option in peace negotiations. Protectorates are said to be automatically created of technologically uplifted species. When I did that, I just got a regular vassal.
Am I missing tech/something else or are they just not in the game?
Post by: Furtuka on May 11, 2016, 11:25:46 pm
Spoiler: We're all gonna die~ (click to show/hide)
(I'm the little blue blob all the way at the bottom of the picture.)
Spoiler: Day 2 Progress Report (click to show/hide)
It appears that the tide of Unbidden has been stalemated by the larger empires they've encountered. As a matter of fact if I'm looking at this correctly they've lost more systems than they've gained. However its going slow enough that I'm continuing on my plan of beating up my neighbors to steal their tech and vassalize them for the sake of making a giant wall of allies, along with a clear path to the Unbidden territory. Also it seems the Unbidden don't really seem to notice construction ships until they enter the portal system. No idea what's up with that.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 11, 2016, 11:28:59 pm
So do Tributaries and Protectorates even exist? They were talked about in Dev Diary #19 but I see no evidence of them existing ingame.
Tributaries were said to be usually the result of a lost war. I can't find that option in peace negotiations. Protectorates are said to be automatically created of technologically uplifted species. When I did that, I just got a regular vassal.
Am I missing tech/something else or are they just not in the game?
The Tributary thing is a mystery to me, but I do know that Protectorates exist. Boost a pre-FTL civilization and they should become one. The only problem is that Protectorates are almost identical to Vassals. The major differences are that the client gets a big boost to research, while their leige gets +1 influence a month (apparently) and not much else. Oh, and Protectorates automatically convert to Vassals when the progress far enough technologically too. Which I believe is a very low cap so... Yeah. Protectorates are a thing. A very silly thing.
Post by: Cyroth on May 12, 2016, 12:06:49 am
Over the next 30 years we have regained all the territories that we have lost to opportunistic empires. The smaller ones we have conquered and integrated into our society, the largest one we have turned into our vassal.
The PRoH grew large, spreading from almost the exact south of our ring shaped universe, where the powerful Fallen Empire blocked passage, to the exact west where we met with the dogged resistance of 2 allied avian nations. We had over 40 planets under our direct control, with almost 15 more under the control of our vassal.
It came as a shock to us when we noticed the signs that some...thing came our way from another universe. We had almost 10 years to prepare ourselves, then the first scouts arrived almost in the center of our Peoples Republic. The capital system and Gaston, our largest shipyard, were attacked, but Capital Fleet (11k combat power) and 2nd Fleet (10k) repelled the attack. 3rd and 4th Fleet were not as lucky and we lost 4 systems when the invaders managed to build orbital fortresses before the surviving fleets could be repaired and sent in to intervene.
Then the main force arrived. There were dozens of fleets, the smallest one as large as Capital Fleet, 2nd Fleet and the 1st Swarm of our vassal combined. The battle was hopeless. We lost system after system, the capital was one of the first, and won only one battle when the survivors of Capital Fleet drew one of the invader fleets into the combined fire of Gastons fortresses.
Thus the great evacuation begann. Thanks to our inproved wormholes we were able to jump past the Fallen Empire blocking the south and into the unsettled space beyond.
As the invaders consumed more and more of our planets we fled. Soon we had settled over 20 systems behind the barrier that was the xenophobic FE.
The invaders slowly consumed most of our old holdings (only the 5 planets closest to the FE survived), our vassal and several of our member races were driven to extinction and even the avian alliance lost most of its territory before the juggernaut stopped.
We have rebuilt, spreaded further into the west and grown again to almost 70 systems. The new capital, it was our 5th or 6th by now, Pollux had 4 habitable planets. 150 years have passed since the invaders appeared (~300 years since the game started). We now have 4 Fleets of over 40k combat power each plus another 40k of fortresses in each Pollux and the gateway system east of the FE. The first empire we met in the west was a gigantic empire of theocratic fox people that we have vassalized after a long and bloddy war, who have around 30k of ships in their own right.
I think we're finally ready to bring war back to the invaders. Or maybe get ourselves a shiny ringworld and connect the eastern and western part of the Peoples Republic.
Decisions in Ironman games are hard. :-\
(I think I didn't enjoy a spess 4X so much since Imperium Galactica 2. I'm already at 45 hours...)
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on May 12, 2016, 12:26:01 am
"YOU WILL LUST FOR THE XENO AND YOU WILL FUCKING LIKE IT, FRIENDO"
Post by: Chosrau on May 12, 2016, 12:41:17 am
Post by: Cyroth on May 12, 2016, 12:41:49 am
My extragalactic invaders just claimed 6 or 7 unsettled planets on the galactic Rim and then just sat there for the last 40 years doing nothing.
Mine were Fun and ate 50 or so planets before another AI empire (the avians who had 2 or 3 fleets with 20k+ between them) apparently killed most of their fleets. There are still quite a few invader fleets of 30k combat rating flying around, but a lot less then there used to be.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 12, 2016, 12:55:01 am
Post by: Rift on May 12, 2016, 12:59:48 am
So do Tributaries and Protectorates even exist? They were talked about in Dev Diary #19 but I see no evidence of them existing ingame.
Tributaries were said to be usually the result of a lost war. I can't find that option in peace negotiations. Protectorates are said to be automatically created of technologically uplifted species. When I did that, I just got a regular vassal.
Am I missing tech/something else or are they just not in the game?
The Tributary thing is a mystery to me, but I do know that Protectorates exist. Boost a pre-FTL civilization and they should become one. The only problem is that Protectorates are almost identical to Vassals. The major differences are that the client gets a big boost to research, while their leige gets +1 influence a month (apparently) and not much else. Oh, and Protectorates automatically convert to Vassals when the progress far enough technologically too. Which I believe is a very low cap so... Yeah. Protectorates are a thing. A very silly thing.
In addition if you declare war on pre-ftl people, you can choose to make them protectorates, (you cant make them vassals, have to make them protectorates). In fact.. if you declare war on pre-ftl people who have pre-ftl vassals you can make them both protectorates in the same war (or just conquer them). ..Yes.. this happened to me. Someone got to space-age and thus got borders around their home system, but their was another pre-ftl people in their borders.. and then they went space-age and became their vassal. Boggles the mind.. they couldnt even send ships to each others systems. This may only apply to the semi-rare situations of got to space age but don't have ftl yet... or maybe it applies as long as they don't have all starting tech researched or something... donno.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 12, 2016, 01:20:35 am
Ehm, how does evasion exactly work? Do ships evade before getting hit in their shields, or the evasion starts working only after shields are down?
AFAIK evasion reduces directly the chance to hit, so it should negate damage before shields are reduced. There are various modifiers to the chance and bigger weapons are easier to evade than smaller ones. (Size meaning mount size - small, medium, large.)
Regarding quality of life things, there is proper patch coming that will fix most of them. This means giving us options regarding message pauses and so forth.
Regarding protectorates, I'm not sure how they work, but they were supposed to be a special type of vassal that doesn't take part in your wars unless directly attacked. They are basically your pets that you are uplifting to become worthy contributors.
The fleet glue thing is due to AI war logic being weird. Basically if you have bigger fleet than they do or if the enemy has big fleets, AI will come and stick to the strongest ally fleet, hoping that the ally fleet goes kick the enemy and your combined strength is enough to overcome them.
Post by: woosholay on May 12, 2016, 01:25:42 am
Some people argue that it was supposed to be about waging wars and such. Welp, why combat and diplomacy suck so much then? In any case I feel like the game is severely overrated, but could be fun in about two years, after Paradox will do what they do best (filling the empty shell of a game with 50+dlcs to make it playable). Good thing is it seems to be pretty easy to mod, so there's that.
Post by: Wolock on May 12, 2016, 01:27:32 am
Spoiler: Who said border friction? (click to show/hide)
They want me to vacate 10 colonies and I only have a measly 3k of firepower to oppose them.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 12, 2016, 01:31:17 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 12, 2016, 01:34:18 am
Post by: MrWiggles on May 12, 2016, 01:42:26 am
Holy crap...
Several fleets of 6-7k. And here I was having chronic energy credit problems and could barely afford my fleet of 9k. I was super mineral rich, and ended up just having to do trades for monthly transfers for lump sums and some monthly transfers. But when you're buring -15, and at my worse, -130 EC, getting 5 a month is just a piss in the ocean.
Now the two big peaceful guys and I all alliance up, but man, we dont have the numbers. There was this huge epic battle over Sol. That was awesome. I had sent my fleet to my border, and I hadnt consider they would just make a bee line to my capital so my 9k fleet was just heading away...
And if you give, at least warp cable ships a long way point, they wont change their destinations.
Now, I did have a few Fortress platforms. Only 2 actually, as you cant build very many of them and they have some pretty intensive EC maintenance cost. But they were only 1k of power each, and when facing a total of 13-15k, it just didnt matter. .
SO eventually, my fleet manage to to get back into SOL before they were finished, and started to engage the massive fleet. I figure, that I was totally boned and may as well as watch the fire works.
Then one of my allies, /finally/ comes into the fray with two fleets of 6k. And we manage to to win that huge space battle...
(Which had a super tiny warscore value.)
But yea... My 9k fleet was shot down to 3k, and there no way I can a mass a navy to win this war to a white peace.
Overall, I had lots of fun and will be playing again.
I found it a real fucking bitch to get any influence. Yea, I had my rivals set up, but my three closet neighbors and I were chill, so the distance penalty really hurt me. But eventually, that smoothed out.
A thing that I couldnt figure out what to do, was how to get high level scientists. At the start of the game, it was pretty easy. I had them all up at 5 stars in what seem like quick order. Then they all died. And now I'm lucky to get anyone over 3 stars before they die. There are these neat quest things, but they all require lvl5 to do them.
I nearly bankrupted myself during my second or wave of expansion. For a good long time, I had only 3 planets. Then wham, I hit this critical point, and suddenly there was more planets for me to gobble.
Setting those things up, are /expensive/ which is a good thing. I like that. It makes colonizing really methodical and purposeful.
Colonizing eventually became kinda of a pain when I had uplifted several races and made them be succumb by my mighty humanity. They were in different sectors. I could build the colonizing ships just fine, it was just tedious. I was concern that the AI would try and control them, since I was forcing ship production out of stations I didnt control. You cant even control Observation Posts in other sectors. (Which seems dumb.)
But I needed them for this new batch of conolizing and the other sectors had planets that could sustain them. So More the merrier. I'd be happy if this happen on its own, but it didnt seem like it would happen.
I had a fine time keeping my sector happy. They were just room mates to my empire of five planets really.
I wish they were more active. I know there a big scary review shitting on the game... but I do wish they were more active. I wish they function something like an alien race Allie. Especially if I set one of them to a military sector. I want them to produce ships and then pay for their up keep, but I dont get to control them directly. Or maybe pay influence and you can assume command when you're at war.
It also felt kinda of dumb that I had several sectors with 1000s of EC sitting in the bank, but I still had to go out and trade for them. I wish I could just trade with the sectors. Or by taking a lump sum, you dont have to pay the taxes for x amount of time. Like taking an advance or something.
I like uplifting and having them become a vassal and integration. I really fucking love that new races pop up as space faring after the game start. Though at some point, there isnt any room for them.
Um...
The bonuses for planetary governors, and sector governors are kinda meh. Scientist traits and admiral traits seem much better. I have no idea if generals really matter. With only 10 slots for Leaders, generals seem to be the biggest waste. I dont get why its restricted to ten. Its already limited by influence, and you will be hard press to keep those leaders filled up, as they die.
Oh, I found it really hard to understand which special resources I had, and I dont quite understand if buildings 'use them' up or not. I also wish that if I want to use a special building, and the special resource is in a sector, that I can still use it. Or be sure that the Sector is using it.
Post by: Cyroth on May 12, 2016, 01:50:21 am
There are several researches that give +2 slots each and another one that can come multiple times and gives +1 slot each time you do it.
I think I'm at 18 or 19 slots.
Influence can be very hard to come by or you can drown in it, depends on your government.
I played a Republic once that changed leaders every 5 years and each new leader would give a super easy quest (build 3 mining outposts) that gave 200 influence.
The military dictatorship I play as now doesn't have anything like that and gaining influence is way harder.
Post by: MrWiggles on May 12, 2016, 01:55:52 am
You get more leader slots later.Yea. I was an indirect demo. I got new leaders but eventually, I had built them all up. There werent any more mining stations or research stations left to build. I hadnt consider destroying them and rebuilding them. I dont think I'd be incline to, as that seems a bit to min maxing for my taste.
There are several researches that give +2 slots each and another one that can come multiple times and gives +1 slot each time you do it.
I think I'm at 18 or 19 slots.
Influence can be very hard to come by or you can drown in it, depends on your government.
I played a Republic once that changed leaders every 5 years and each new leader would give a super easy quest (build 3 mining outposts) that gave 200 influence.
The military dictatorship I play as now doesn't have anything like that and gaining influence is way harder.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 12, 2016, 01:58:59 am
Protectorates/uplifts made me think of rebels... We should really be able to support/arm rebels in neighbor territory, especially if it is a planet populated by our species that we lost to them. Hopefully we will get espionage DLC soon.
Edit: Now that I think about what is bad about Stellaris, I think Paradox failed a little by going to differences in numbers instead of difference in actions regarding values/governments/species. What I mean by this is that some +10% bonus to something might be mathematically big thing, but it doesn't come across to the player that different to -10% malus. If instead the player had a different ship class or diplomacy action or something, it would give the player the impression of larger difference between those choices. Even if the actual difference would be less.
So I think the differences that exist are appreciated by those with a mathematical approach to games or with a lot of past experience about Paradox games. But people coming in from more accessible games have a feeling that the game is bland regarding the options available, because numbers don't come across intuitively in the same way.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 12, 2016, 02:32:21 am
Beyond that, you want to keep power costs low by expanding outward before you build upward. Basic buildings are usually the most power and mineral efficient of way of producing a resource, while upgrades can be serious power hogs. Avoid needless excess like upgraded labs or unnecessary food if you're struggling with EC. The purpose of upgrades is to make yourself more powerful once you have no more space on which to build basic buildings.
There's a lot you can do to lower fleet upkeep. There's a hard limit of -47% fleet upkeep modifier which you can hit in a variety of ways. Faction leaders and admirals both have fleet upkeep reducing traits. Hunting space monsters is a good way to give admirals traits, hopefully you'll get the logistics one. Docking your fleet at a starport reduces its upkeep, and modules can make your starports even better at lowering upkeep. Beyond that, ship cost translates directly into fleet upkeep cost. If you're strapped for cash small savings on the ship designer can translate into large savings when multiplied across an entire fleet. Try to predict when you'll be in conflict and avoid upgrading your fleet if you won't be needing it, as more primitive components are cheaper to maintain.
Post by: Wolock on May 12, 2016, 02:51:12 am
I was able to merge all my fleets before destroying a lone battlecruiser. Then I made an unconditional surrender.
While I lost 9 colonies in sectors and one core I was able to keep most of my fleet, got some debris to research and about 4 colonies were being established right before the war and weren't affected.
Also the race I've integrated in my empire is down from a quarter of my pop before the war to only 2.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 12, 2016, 02:54:47 am
Hope that battlecruiser had some good shit on it.
Post by: Neyvn on May 12, 2016, 05:34:21 am
Probe Recovery. They all spawned nearby, though one was in a surveyed system so the bonus was pointless and the second was scavenged back to the same system as the first, the third had a Void Cloud guarding it but the forth, it was 'Modified' by something/one. It spoke to me, asking me if I were the makers. No matter which I would choose though, it would attack. I defended with my fleet. And then.... NOTHING! IT DIDN'T CHANGE ANYTHING, the quest is still there to be done but now its pinging the CENTER OF THE GALAXY! The F-ing Core where you can't travel... WTF??!?!?!
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 12, 2016, 05:40:36 am
Post by: Neyvn on May 12, 2016, 05:43:35 am
Right now the most gamebreaking bug I've encountered, is that you can't random-name custom ship designs. :/Oh heck yeah this is annoying...
I generally just click the Autocreate button, then steal the name of the class I want to make a customship out of. But have learned only to specialize. Cause upgrading the ships only goes for the best one it seems, can't make a fleet of a collection of similar classes it seems or I must be missing something! No Longrange Rocket Corvettes flying around with CQC Corvettes with high shield/armour defenses without micromanaging that...
Post by: MrWiggles on May 12, 2016, 05:55:00 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 12, 2016, 06:02:19 am
So, should I go though every sector and make sure every station has solar panels?Probably.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 12, 2016, 06:07:04 am
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on May 12, 2016, 06:31:25 am
Post by: MrWiggles on May 12, 2016, 06:48:59 am
I've had no problems with energy, but I put energy mining stations anywhere. Plus those strategic resource power plants are really good combined with the power hub. If you are short of energy maybe the solar panels are worth it, but I prefer using the station slots for something else. For example, having an engineering bay at the place you keep your battlefleet can save you more energy than the solar panels would generate in the first place.Wow, I totally misunderstood how engineer bay works. I thought it was a bonus given to ships built there?
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 12, 2016, 07:20:12 am
Ehm, do vassals actually work? Vassalized empires refuse to let me research their tech faster unless for insane prices( after getting fleets wiped out and planets conquered by robotic hordes those guys still refuse to love me ;-;7)
Post by: Glloyd on May 12, 2016, 07:26:14 am
Question, since the game is so new I'm still very confused about the pace early on. Maybe I'm just being bad about efficiently constructing resource collectors, but it seems to take a very long time to get the ball rolling. How long does it usually take for you peeps to get planet #2?
No matter who you start as, there will be two planets suited for your race within very close range. As soon as you get colony ships (which should be the first society tech you go for), send one out to the closest one. Yeah, you'll probably go into the negatives in energy while it builds up, but you should've saved up a bit by then because there's no much to spend energy on until you start expanding. So it should only really take as long as researching colony ships and building one does, which isn't too long in the grand scheme of things. Getting minerals for it is slow at first, but while the tech is researching, plop down some mining stations in your home system to get a flow of at least a few energy credits and at least 5 but preferably 10 minerals, and when you see the tech is close to finishing, save up and splurge on it when it's done. Then use the minerals that build up over its build time to finish setting up the mines in your home system and any others withing your borders at that point.
This whole time you should have your science ship surveying systems. I've only played with wormhole so far, so I try to hit up all the ones in the first ring as soon as possible. Don't build a second science ship or constructor until you get your second planet, and build a science ship before a constructor. Science ships are good ways to get a boost in the early game by finding anomalies and whatnot, and they'll also give you a clear idea of where you should expand to and where you should build frontier outposts to grab some good shit. Make sure your science ships have scientists in them, and try to grab ones with traits relating to either survey speed or anomaly chance. If you get any maniacal ones, set them to be research scientists, it's worth it.
Oh, and make sure you set up governors for your first two planets, you won't need an admiral at that point so you can use your leader slots to eke every bit of productivity out of your planets as possible.
Ninja Edit: Yeah, full scale bombardment is lame. I don't get why it's a policy at all, I bombarded a planet for a year or so while I was waiting for my ground forces to finish leapfrogging their way there, and nothing really happened to the planet - no buildings destroyed, no pops dead. Keep in mind this is a 30k power fleet, so they've got a decent amount of firepower. I was expecting to glass the planet and all I did was make everyone unemployed.
EDIT2: With that said, the planetary side of war is lame as fuck. It feels so barebones, I'm sure there'll be a DLC focusing on it. Why can't I do anything with the planets after I've occupied them? I've got a massive fleet hovering around and I've filled the slots on the planet full of xenomorph troopers, I'm a maniacal xenophobic miltaristic empire whose sole goal is to enslave or purge everyone, and for some reason I can't touch the buildings or the people on this planet I've taken? I want to be able to sic my army on the populace, purge them all or enslave them all and ship them off to some far flung colony, do some actual damage to my opponent. But the military aspects of this game feel very poorly thought out and designed for multiplayer only, so I'm not too surprised.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 12, 2016, 07:27:13 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 12, 2016, 07:38:38 am
Ninja Edit: Yeah, full scale bombardment is lame. I don't get why it's a policy at all, I bombarded a planet for a year or so while I was waiting for my ground forces to finish leapfrogging their way there, and nothing really happened to the planet - no buildings destroyed, no pops dead. Keep in mind this is a 30k power fleet, so they've got a decent amount of firepower. I was expecting to glass the planet and all I did was make everyone unemployed.Sounds bugged? Dunno. I've got full bombardment in my current game but haven't got in a war yet. I'll try it out myself and see.
The price gouging is realTrade is pretty fucky in general. To wit:
"Hey what do you want for that terraforming gas?"
"What are you offering, bug?"
"Uh 20 EC/month?"
"We will not accept that deal, bug"
"Okay how about 1 mineral?"
"OH FUCK YES TAKE ALL THE GAS YOU WANT"
Post by: BFEL on May 12, 2016, 07:55:33 am
If you think TRADE is fucked, try getting an alliance sometime. Not "get invited to an alliance" but start one from scratch.The price gouging is realTrade is pretty fucky in general. To wit:
"Hey what do you want for that terraforming gas?"
"What are you offering, bug?"
"Uh 20 EC/month?"
"We will not accept that deal, bug"
"Okay how about 1 mineral?"
"OH FUCK YES TAKE ALL THE GAS YOU WANT"
Its basically impossible if your potential ally isn't rivalling anyone.
In my Star Fox game I've been sitting at over 100 opinion with my federation builder neighbor for the entire game, with ALL THE TREATIES but they just REFUSE to join my space party.
There REALLY needs to be a bigger correlation between opinion and alliance modifiers.
EDIT: OK, WHAT IN THE SHITTING FUCK IS HAPPENING? TWO FLEETS OF VOID CLOUDS HAVE JOINED A IRON AGE PRIMITIVE CIVILIZATION. IN ALL THE GALAXY THERE EXISTS NO ABILITY TO EVEN.
Post by: Smitehappy on May 12, 2016, 08:20:54 am
EDIT: OK, WHAT IN THE SHITTING FUCK IS HAPPENING? TWO FLEETS OF VOID CLOUDS HAVE JOINED A IRON AGE PRIMITIVE CIVILIZATION. IN ALL THE GALAXY THERE EXISTS NO ABILITY TO EVEN.
I had that same thing happen to me but they have never moved and are completely neutral. At one point I caught one of my constructor ships in their party ball, just hanging out until I ordered him to move again.
I've also had a similar issue with an invisible primitive race that doesn't show up on the planetary map but does mess with colony happiness on the planet. Clearly we're dealing with a race of super space druids.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 12, 2016, 09:28:17 am
Wow, I totally misunderstood how engineer bay works. I thought it was a bonus given to ships built there?Oh yeah, I mixed it with crew quarters. Crew quarters give -20% upkeep to ships in orbit of the planet with the starbase. Engineering bay gives -10% upkeep to ships built by the starbase with the improvement. Sadly it has no effect on your old ships.
Post by: Ludorum Rex on May 12, 2016, 09:29:13 am
Edit: Now that I think about what is bad about Stellaris, I think Paradox failed a little by going to differences in numbers instead of difference in actions regarding values/governments/species. What I mean by this is that some +10% bonus to something might be mathematically big thing, but it doesn't come across to the player that different to -10% malus. If instead the player had a different ship class or diplomacy action or something, it would give the player the impression of larger difference between those choices. Even if the actual difference would be less.
So I think the differences that exist are appreciated by those with a mathematical approach to games or with a lot of past experience about Paradox games. But people coming in from more accessible games have a feeling that the game is bland regarding the options available, because numbers don't come across intuitively in the same way.
This is a pretty good observation and some strong points you make. Even as a numbers guy, this would make the game a lot better for me. It's something I really like about Crusader Kings 2 - playing as a tribal pagan chief is a lot different than playing as a Catholic feudal king. Even something as "simple" as giving nomadic races a free pop resettlement every X months or having militarists be able to upgrade their ships without blocking construction of new ones. Mechanical differences are cool.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 12, 2016, 09:37:24 am
And robobros seem pretty chill and dont riot at all, how do you observe the game after game over,huh?
How ai fleets encountered by you, guys, even look like? 4/4 ai fleets I had seen were lasers + some tiny bit of shielding + some tiny bit of armour + good engines + fine sensors, this is just rockpaperscissored by torpedoes.
Did anyone use carriers? Do bombers make any damage at all? Their range is 8, it is something to laugh at.
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 12, 2016, 09:58:17 am
And apparently the way to stay on par with technology is to spam labs everywhere.
Post by: Sergarr on May 12, 2016, 10:38:06 am
Color me surprised.
Post by: Aklyon on May 12, 2016, 10:39:36 am
Incomplete, yes.
Post by: lastverb on May 12, 2016, 11:36:00 am
Game feels awesome as long as you are 'exploring the game' starting to build empire, even the first invasion on enemy to enslave them feels awesome. But at that moment you start to notice quirkiness. I have won my first war to capture a planet - enemy capital - by just jumping my fleet into their homesystem and winning a fight with their fleet, not even destroying their shipyard. Both me and enemy had similiar power and he was 'fanatical purifiers'.
As soon as you start interacting with AI game goes downhill with speed of light. Also the engine (still clauswitz) feels really unoptimized for what it achieves (not talking about graphics).
I'm still hoping that fixes this game really needs (there is a lot) will not come as DLC.
Somehow they managed to make a 4x game that is completely non-replayable. Apart from few (3?) different end-game scenarios, which of course neither AI nor game engine can handle.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 12, 2016, 12:35:13 pm
AI is weird, but in all strategy games ai thinks in some strange way.
Post by: Sartain on May 12, 2016, 12:53:38 pm
Question, since the game is so new I'm still very confused about the pace early on. Maybe I'm just being bad about efficiently constructing resource collectors, but it seems to take a very long time to get the ball rolling. How long does it usually take for you peeps to get planet #2?
EDIT2: With that said, the planetary side of war is lame as fuck. It feels so barebones, I'm sure there'll be a DLC focusing on it. Why can't I do anything with the planets after I've occupied them? I've got a massive fleet hovering around and I've filled the slots on the planet full of xenomorph troopers, I'm a maniacal xenophobic miltaristic empire whose sole goal is to enslave or purge everyone, and for some reason I can't touch the buildings or the people on this planet I've taken? I want to be able to sic my army on the populace, purge them all or enslave them all and ship them off to some far flung colony, do some actual damage to my opponent. But the military aspects of this game feel very poorly thought out and designed for multiplayer only, so I'm not too surprised.
Well you can do all that (kind of), you just have to observe the ancient custom of "ending the war" first. I agree though that the game could do with some options for war-time atrocities. Maybe a system where you can purge, enslave and resettle the populace of a temporarily controlled planet during a war with the regular opinion malus + a "war crimes!" malus on top of that. Possibly make resettlement of slaves from the planet free or cheaper, since it's essentially your army taking prisoners at gunpoint (I don't really get why resettling slaves cost influence in the first place, I mean it's slaves, who cares?)
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 12, 2016, 12:56:19 pm
-Colonization UI
-Environmental pop interactions (there are little to none)
-The ability to actually starve people to death
-Any actual ability to conduct diplomacy
-More maps, ones for sectors, diplomacy, federations, government types, ethics and so on. Also a pretty galaxy terrain map to bask in the lovely scenery
-Slave revolts
-Divergent ethical factions trying to break your Empire's galactic law or force it to their liking
-Fix the bugs where sitlog missions that require surveying of star systems cannot be completed because one of the star systems has nothing to be surveyed or already was surveyed
-More ability to scout information from other Empires
-More detailed spreadsheets
-Internal economy of trade, civvy ships?
Post by: Ultimuh on May 12, 2016, 01:14:21 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also, another thing I thought of..
Maybe we should have a separate thread for our custom Space Empires?
So they won't get lost within these discussions.
Post by: Neyvn on May 12, 2016, 01:27:44 pm
An Annomally took my Science crew for a moment then brought them back, they say they were in another area of space where all types of alien vessels just hung motionless in the void. They returned with their lives but for half their numbers. I continue for a month when suddenly the missing crew member arrive back aboard another science vessel. They say they don't remember anything and offer the ship they returned in as an option, the other was to destroy it...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Hope this was the right option. tbh though I don't see what it can offer me, it doesn't even have sensors and is powered by a chemical engine...
Post by: Cruxador on May 12, 2016, 01:28:23 pm
Though I just finished a rare orbital mind control laser tech, so if i could afford it, I could push them back with -30% ethics drift.Fucking damn. And I thought I was well-off with a rare -15% building.
I have to say, the IGN review is pretty spot on: http://ca.ign.com/articles/2016/05/09/stellaris-reviewYeah, it's a pretty solid and accurate review, it matches my experience too. Not his overall verdict that it isn't fun, I've been enjoying it, but in its current state it's gonna be more like the ~70 hours I put into EU4 than the ~600 I've put into CK2. I think Stellaris has a better foundation to build on though, all the problems he mentions can be addressed with patches and DLC, although making sectors interesting, presumably by making sector governors matter, would be a really big one.
Another quick feature addition: The ability to click on systems to build ships in them, as you can do with troops in EU4.
We're probably looking at EUIV-style DLC (i.e. smaller and more frequent), with regular patches and so on.That's not good. We need big ones.
Post by: umiman on May 12, 2016, 01:30:12 pm
So... This just came back from the Beyond...I kept mine around for a bit then scrapped it. It doesn't seem to do anything.
An Annomally took my Science crew for a moment then brought them back, they say they were in another area of space where all types of alien vessels just hung motionless in the void. They returned with their lives but for half their numbers. I continue for a month when suddenly the missing crew member arrive back aboard another science vessel. They say they don't remember anything and offer the ship they returned in as an option, the other was to destroy it...Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Hope this was the right option. tbh though I don't see what it can offer me, it doesn't even have sensors and is powered by a chemical engine...
Post by: Zangi on May 12, 2016, 01:38:29 pm
Re: sectors. I've been rotating every sector in my empire between industrial, tech, and energy production whenever I remember to. I give new sectors huge resource grants and don't tax them, then within about 10-20 years once I'm sure they can be self sufficient I move them up to max taxation. So far I have more energy and minerals than I know what to do with so it seems to be working.Late reply, but thanks for the answers. I'll wait till it gets a few DLC in on discount, heh. Got me a huge backlog anyways.I've played for a little under 30 hours in my first game and colonized huge swathes of space. Still have more colonization to do. It mainly depends on how the early game goes; sometimes people get boxed in by larger powers, sometimes you break out and everything is good. Inevitably if enough time passes everything will be colonized and then it turns into EU4/ CK2.Ah, so less CK-like and more 4x? Wants me some elaboration.I see a lot of complaints about hitting a point where you can't expand peaceably anymore in this thread... what comes after?War.So... how feature rich/barren is the post-colonization phase of the game?It depends, really. You can start playing the game like EU where its all about interacting with other empires, mainly through conquering them. Sometimes crisis will happen (like the Unbidden everyone keeps talking about) but that's not a sure thing. Some of it feels a little half baked right now. Alliances and federations are a bit... off at the moment. Like they could use a little cleaning up and a few extra features before they're really going to start making the game more fun.
I see a lot of complaints about hitting a point where you can't expand peaceably anymore in this thread... what comes after?
Also, mentions about AI sticking to their alliance/federation through thick and thin, despite things, sounds... bad.
There's some fun internal stuff you can do with pops. You can genetically engineer them to be different, build robots to populate worlds, and do all kinds of stuff with migration/resettlement/enslavement/purges. The only real use of all this is to incrementally increase efficiency or to open up new worlds for colonization. Beyond that you can have fun role-playing the kind of civ you want to be.
Also, don't forget, you might still be on the honeymoon phase of the relationship. Doesn't mean the game is inherently bad, its a time of magic and you'll come out having a better idea of what could be improved...
Post by: Sartain on May 12, 2016, 01:55:03 pm
I'm thinking the people from this forum are exactly the right kind of people to have making input on that kind of topic :D
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/war-crimes.929786/
Post by: Aklyon on May 12, 2016, 01:56:18 pm
Does your rare -15% building cost 5 EC in maintenance each, and a starport slot?Though I just finished a rare orbital mind control laser tech, so if i could afford it, I could push them back with -30% ethics drift.Fucking damn. And I thought I was well-off with a rare -15% building.
Post by: Cruxador on May 12, 2016, 02:05:06 pm
Quote from: Fredrik Wester
We are immensely proud of the Paradox team for putting together such a stellar releaseMoney is good, bugs and poor reviews aren't important. Not that this is the wrong take for a CEO, but I'm contrasting it to the "typical Paradox release" sentiment in the thread.
I'm not at home, but I assume the maintenance is substantial. It requires the highest level capital, but still cheaper than a starport slot. But I'd pay that for those recently conquered worlds. Even though the ethoses don't have a ton of in-play effects, nobody wants to tolerate different opinions.Does your rare -15% building cost 5 EC in maintenance each, and a starport slot?Though I just finished a rare orbital mind control laser tech, so if i could afford it, I could push them back with -30% ethics drift.Fucking damn. And I thought I was well-off with a rare -15% building.
Post by: Man of Paper on May 12, 2016, 02:28:21 pm
Post by: Leyic on May 12, 2016, 02:38:07 pm
Post by: Xgamer4 on May 12, 2016, 03:23:39 pm
I'm not sure if they're unpolished, ill-imagined, or just downright bad, but they're definitely *something* that isn't good.
I get the idea - split up your empire to allow easier administration and to minimize micromanagement for the player. That's perfectly fair - and done well, I can see ample opportunity for inter-Empire drama. Apparently there's problems with the tile-placement AI (covering up necessary resources and/or rare resources) and they're weird with Observation Posts (as-a-player, you lose all decision-making ability). I completely believe all of those, but they aren't the source of my rant.
No, my biggest problem is that I legitimately can't tell what's buggy behavior for a sector vs intended behavior. I can't build on tiles, but I can build spaceports, control spaceport modules, and build ships from modules. But I have to jump through major hoops to get access to the spaceports... is that intended? Or a bug? If I build a colony ship, it builds just fine, and it can be used, but trying to select the colony ship then the planet is a losing affair - the ship doesn't really appear anywhere. It's easier to find the planet then choose colonize. Does the AI build mining posts, spaceports, etc on its own? Or a military? I've heard very mixed messages...
It's great that I can reduce micromanagement, and I'm not going to argue, but building out sectors just feels like I'm hobbling myself if I want to maximize planet usage and absolutely crippling myself for army output if I go to war just because there's so many hoop to jump through to build ships in sectors. It's just a pain.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 12, 2016, 03:32:39 pm
Post by: Gabeux on May 12, 2016, 03:48:57 pm
I made a point to hunt and troll the hell out of any Zealots, and the game is getting to a point where 'good folks' are getting into alliances together, and 'bad folks' who where gaining territory are now desperate, and I'm slowly conquering and liberating their planets. Already integrated 2 species, one atomic-era species I was passively observing since the started killed themselves in a nuclear war, and my 215+ human pop for years elected an alien Separatist President from a conquered 15 pop Xenophobic Evangelist for no reason, which made me go brainwash left and right and support human presidents since I can't just purge, resettle or enslave people,
My alliance has 7 members of varying sizes. I was aiming for more members but empires decided to band together out of desperation, I think.
I've been playing for 3 days and I still don't know what my goal is, but I guess I'll try to make my inter-species federation rule the whole galaxy by any means necessary.
This game is also a threat to my life, it seems. I forgot what Grand Strategy does to me. bwhaha
Only complaints about the game I have at the moment (which seems like bugs), are:
- If you create sectors, you can't control Observation Posts in that sector for some reason. Which means you can't XCOM younger races, and the base is always set as Passive Observation..which takes ages for anything to happen.
- Going to war when on an Alliance really should bump up the warscore limit. 4x4 fights only allowing you to take 3-4 planets every 10 years? Pretty meh.
And..
boy I miss the distant world universe interface, where you can say build this here and ai makes it happenThis. Being able to queue construction would really lower micromanagement.
Post by: umiman on May 12, 2016, 04:17:32 pm
Shift key. Also you can right click a system and ask it to build all of everything.boy I miss the distant world universe interface, where you can say build this here and ai makes it happenThis. Being able to queue construction would really lower micromanagement.
That's about the extent of it, and goddamn I wish there was an auto button, but that's better than doing it one by one.
Post by: Man of Paper on May 12, 2016, 04:54:12 pm
Post by: BFEL on May 12, 2016, 04:59:26 pm
And with that I think my Star Foxes have accidently become an expy of the racconians from that webcomic "Quentyn Quinn, Space Ranger" or whatever. (warning if you decide to read the comic: its pretty well thought out sci fi and such, but occasionally the author goes full Jack Chick mode and has some zealoty Aesop. Notably he doesn't believe in evolution, and is convinced no one else does, but that we're all just faking it for unknowable reasons. It is a mystery.)
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 12, 2016, 05:00:36 pm
I'm very late game in a three member alliance, we hold almost a third of a very large (1000 system) 4 arm spiral galaxy. Suddenly a new civilization pops up right in the middle of one of my sectors. This would be okay since it isn't denying me resources that I need, but it is blocking the only lane into the neighboring spiral arm, the lane I built the sector to hold, and I cannot declare war, because it is actually impossible for me to offer anything to satisfy my allies.
Additionally, I can't force them to become my vassals because one of our member-states had war declared on them by a rival nation, and this war promises to drag on for quite some time, since the AI sucks wind at invasion and occupation.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 12, 2016, 05:04:20 pm
Post by: Gabeux on May 12, 2016, 05:20:06 pm
Shift key. Also you can right click a system and ask it to build all of everything.boy I miss the distant world universe interface, where you can say build this here and ai makes it happenThis. Being able to queue construction would really lower micromanagement.
That's about the extent of it, and goddamn I wish there was an auto button, but that's better than doing it one by one.
Yeah, but this isn't like Distant Worlds, since in Stellaris you need to have available resources in order to order construction, in every screen. :(
But I've seen videos of people not doing Order Queueing with Shift even on Science ships. Even though they will evade hostile aliens a lot, it just seems crazy not to queue some systems.
I am in agreement that war declaration while a member of an alliance needs some refining.
-snip-
Exactly. I also find it a bit sad you can't bribe people out of alliances, or persuade them into joining yours instead. I've been trying to get any non-Zealot, and non-Hegemonic (and non-Crusaders since they have a bad habit of attacking weak folks) empires to join me, but due to imminent threats they started joining forces with some bad folks that I was aiming to stomp and integrate.
The only current way for me to achieve my goals in these situations is to stomp the friendly people together with the bad people, vassalize the bad ones via war and then make tons of diplomatic efforts with whatever's left of the good folks.
A question, though. If you turn into a Federation, you can't invite new members to it? I saved and tested it and seemingly couldn't invite people anymore, so I reloaded and I keep refusing the Federation vote that everyone else seems really excited in forming.
Post by: TheBronzePickle on May 12, 2016, 05:27:05 pm
Federations also have special fleets which can use the tech of all the member states for their ships, but only the president can produce those ships, and if there are ships in construction or queue when the president switches, the resources get eaten by the game. Also, the president has the sole responsibility of supporting the fleet, so if one of the member states is low on resources and suddenly gets a fleet they can't support, it can fuck them over.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 12, 2016, 05:44:13 pm
This is the same thing they did with coalitions in EU4. They decided they wanted the AI to gang up on human players who are snowballing, and as a result of that they made an alliance system that is far too powerful and has no downsides.
Post by: Gabeux on May 12, 2016, 05:50:27 pm
I might take a break and wait for patches, because the War and Alliances/Federation part of the game (which I've been doing a lot) has all these quirks which take a ton of real time and effort to circumvent.
There was an alliance of 4 annoying small empires, and it probably has been more than 100 years (~5 wars) and there's still more 4-5 wars worth of territory left from 2 empires to take over, and I have at least 4 allies bordering them invading together. Seems a lot silly.
I've seen a ton of threads about Warscore on steam and forums, so I guess it'll be fixed/balanced soon.
Still, I have a ton of praise for the presentation and systems of the game. You have a ton of options and possibilities to manage pops, and it's cool how many different opinions might arise from far-away colonies. Along with government Ethics, it makes for many varied and dynamic empires, relationships and stories. Always wanted to see that, I love it.
PS: I've been reading that assigning Frontier Outposts to Sectors removes their Influence maintenance cost. Anyone knows this for sure? I've definitely noticed this, but it makes no sense.
Just like sectors can 'generate' negative Energy/Minerals, it should generate negative IPs too, IMO, unless the devs made it so the Sector Government actions don't reflect on your actions.. but that sounds way too RP-ey.
Might be a bug.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 12, 2016, 06:47:04 pm
This being said I really like the sector system. Every game of this type starts out with all your planets feeling like special little snowflake planets and ends with you not giving a shit about individual planets. The sector system means that, as you stop caring about individual planets, you stop needing to care as much. THAT BEING SAID there needs to be a screen that shows you a list of every starport in your empire and allows you to give them orders from that screen. And you should be able to mark specific starports to be at the top of the list. The empire screen is insufficient because you cannot give orders from it. Although FYI you can click on sectors to get a list of every planet in your sector; useful for tracking down that one immigrant pop you want to star a colony with.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 12, 2016, 07:15:53 pm
What's the benefit of better hyperdrive tech? The hyperdrive components unlocked through research don't actually say what they do in the description or stats. All you see is a decent increase in mineral and power cost.
I'd assume that they enter hyperlanes more quickly/traverse through them more quickly, but the game doesn't actually say anything about it.
Post by: Xgamer4 on May 12, 2016, 08:06:51 pm
Post by: Man of Paper on May 12, 2016, 08:22:00 pm
Post by: TheBronzePickle on May 12, 2016, 08:25:19 pm
Post by: redwallzyl on May 12, 2016, 08:58:53 pm
Post by: Aklyon on May 12, 2016, 09:03:32 pm
anyone know how to delete the stupid double sol that spawns. i really really hate that bug its so immersion breaking. their is no reason that one should have gotten through.Are you starting in Sol and then another Sol spawns, or something? I haven't seen it.
Post by: redwallzyl on May 12, 2016, 09:18:03 pm
Post by: Baijiu on May 12, 2016, 09:20:34 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on May 13, 2016, 12:50:54 am
Regarding bugs, yeah, plenty of annoying ones, but they get fixed, that is the good thing about paradox. At least the game is stable and I've only noticed buggy event chains (plus those two things mentioned above), game itself works fine.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 13, 2016, 12:57:04 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 13, 2016, 01:01:23 am
Post by: Karlito on May 13, 2016, 01:03:59 am
Post by: Smitehappy on May 13, 2016, 01:05:43 am
Frontier outposts in sectors cost no upkeep, but that is a bug/exploit that will be fixed in a patch. I think the cap on three outposts is pretty damn low though as often you have problems combining your areas of space without spamming outposts. Likewise observation outposts in sectors not working properly are a bug as well.
Regarding bugs, yeah, plenty of annoying ones, but they get fixed, that is the good thing about paradox. At least the game is stable and I've only noticed buggy event chains (plus those two things mentioned above), game itself works fine.
I used to think the same thing about Frontier Outposts. It was either waste one of my 5-7 precious colony slots grabbing some useful resources or take the 2 Influence hit to build a outpost, neither of which seemed worth it. Then I realized I could just throw all my developed planets into a sector with a 75% tax and use the freed up colony slots to start another wave of land grabs. Now I barely use Frontier outposts unless I need to grab an area of space that has no habitable planets.
Word to the wise though, make sure the planets you're adding to sectors are mostly developed. The sector management AI is baaaaaad and will not be able to handle growing a new colony well.
Post by: Wolock on May 13, 2016, 01:10:08 am
Spoiler: Actual state (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Before the Eviction (click to show/hide)
The diplomatic relation with the Cithin Imperum are worsening each day. Add the fact that there's a patch of good worlds to colonize beyond their lone world on the left so war is expect in a couple of years. On the main galactic arm the Bos'Pachtux Imperium are expanding on my right.
On the leadership side, since the assassination of my director after the war, the Directorate was hold by a string of old geezers who died of old age soon after being elect. The position is now being held by a woman in her fifties with a growth agenda and her traits are Destroyer Focus and Nervous. So I'll have some stability in rulership, a good growth rate to get back my pop, discount on destroyers which are my biggest ship, but my fleet is gut by 20%...
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 13, 2016, 01:12:24 am
Remember, you can colonize AND drop frontier outposts at the same time; they take mostly different resources.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 13, 2016, 01:19:43 am
However, stellaris is still digital drug, and quite probably it will have all mentioned above stuff later.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 13, 2016, 01:51:31 am
I used to think the same thing about Frontier Outposts. It was either waste one of my 5-7 precious colony slots grabbing some useful resources or take the 2 Influence hit to build a outpost, neither of which seemed worth it. Then I realized I could just throw all my developed planets into a sector with a 75% tax and use the freed up colony slots to start another wave of land grabs. Now I barely use Frontier outposts unless I need to grab an area of space that has no habitable planets.
You are tanking your research. Research costs increase with empire size, so having lots of undeveloped planets is baaaaaad. Especially so if they are planets with no research potential whatsoever.
I kind of think they made frontier posts expensive and with a hard limit on purpose to push us towards warfare, though, both for resource systems, pre-ftl civs and better borders.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 13, 2016, 02:13:36 am
I got the worst neighbors. While they weren't all purge-all-life behaviors, they were almost all xenophobes and they all hated me for many reasons. As I'm building up a fleet to vassalize one of the more hostile empires, I get a notification.
They had formed a federation. Every single empire surrounding my territory had formed a federation. And they all hated me.
It was only a couple months until the declaration of war. I would have been able to handle any one of them at any one time. Maybe even a couple at the same time from the same direction, but this was hell.
They all had warp and wormhole tech and completely surrounded me. My primary fleet was about 12k in power and was stationed near the territory of one of the weaker ones (and also was nearby the strongest enemy.)
The problem was the, well, geography? I had expanded in mostly one direction. One of the more moderate-sized empires was actually right next to my Capital, and had warp. I had planned on merging my fleets to have two primary fleets for defending the capital and attacking the upper front. That was probably my mistake.
So as I said, I had only expanded in one direction. Far out in the fringes of my territory, were the most powerful and weakest empires right next to each other. Adjacent to my capital, were two moderate sized empires. I had planned on using my main fleet to completely disable the weakest empire while using the secondary fleet to fend off attacks on my Capital.
The war started off well. I annihilated one of the empire's fleets in a single blow and had disabled most of their starbases. As I was preparing to start the invasion of one of their planets, the fleet from the strongest empire arrived - 20k power. I temporarily withdrew to merge more fleets into my main fleet.
After I withdrew, the empires next to my Capital started warping in fleets both at my Capital and at the bottom side of my fringe territory. Meaning I was effectively fighting a three front war. I decided to re-adapt my strategy. The secondary fleet would stay at the Capital while my primary fleet would split up to harass enemy minor fleets, troop transports, and infrastructure. Unfortunately this wasn't enough as the enemy gradually took my fringe worlds and started hammering at my Capital.
One particular battle at my Capital system left the secondary fleet crippled. I was forced to regroup my entire navy at my homeworld, hoping to at least hold out while I constructed some new ships. I left some minor fleets outside to continue harassing and take in the reinforcements from the remaining fringe starports. My empire ended when they ended up at my Homeworld with a fleet x2 the power of my Homeworld defense force.
You know, it's annoying to lose, but it is kind of similar to DF in the losing is fun category.
Post by: Cruxador on May 13, 2016, 02:20:16 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Gabeux on May 13, 2016, 02:54:24 am
I used to think the same thing about Frontier Outposts. It was either waste one of my 5-7 precious colony slots grabbing some useful resources or take the 2 Influence hit to build a outpost, neither of which seemed worth it. Then I realized I could just throw all my developed planets into a sector with a 75% tax and use the freed up colony slots to start another wave of land grabs. Now I barely use Frontier outposts unless I need to grab an area of space that has no habitable planets.
You are tanking your research. Research costs increase with empire size, so having lots of undeveloped planets is baaaaaad. Especially so if they are planets with no research potential whatsoever.
I kind of think they made frontier posts expensive and with a hard limit on purpose to push us towards warfare, though, both for resource systems, pre-ftl civs and better borders.
Wha...are you serious? This is why stuff is taking 15-25k to research, and why tiny empires have the same (if not superior) tech level than me?
This simple, single piece of information just made me facepalm with the force of a thousand research points spent in researching dumb stuff...
Good thing their debris reveal me some of the things I'm behind.. :P
(I still feel insanely stupid now)
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 13, 2016, 02:59:07 am
Post by: celem on May 13, 2016, 03:31:35 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Not sure where to guide the humanlike Valdari next in this thousand-star 4-armed spiral. We are Collectivist, Militarist, Materialists, a Despotic Hegemony. We are wormhole-FTL, and as far as I can tell none of my contacts are using wormholes.
State of Affairs:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Majestic7 on May 13, 2016, 04:12:29 am
Post by: Cyroth on May 13, 2016, 04:14:30 am
-1000 threat relationship with everybody except for my servant empires, total war with everybody. The galaxy looks like Yurop during WW1, a giant clusterfuck of everybody vs everybody else.
Holy carp.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 13, 2016, 04:22:02 am
You can still win against technologically superior foe with bigger fleet if you specialize your ships to beat the snot out of them. This requires you scanning their ships and putting exactly what counters them on your vessels. Like if they use only missiles, get loads of point-defense. Of course, if you are facing multiple foes with different type of designs, this does not apply...
how do you scout?
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 13, 2016, 04:33:08 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 13, 2016, 04:39:03 am
Send out a corvette and click the "view vessel" button when you select the enemy fleet.
but I can't reach in the enemy territory before declaring war
Post by: GentlemanRaptor on May 13, 2016, 05:51:58 am
Post by: Majestic7 on May 13, 2016, 05:57:39 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 13, 2016, 08:54:10 am
Post by: Furtuka on May 13, 2016, 09:30:53 am
Spoiler: We're all gonna die~ (click to show/hide)
(I'm the little blue blob all the way at the bottom of the picture.)Spoiler: Day 2 Progress Report (click to show/hide)
It appears that the tide of Unbidden has been stalemated by the larger empires they've encountered. As a matter of fact if I'm looking at this correctly they've lost more systems than they've gained. However its going slow enough that I'm continuing on my plan of beating up my neighbors to steal their tech and vassalize them for the sake of making a giant wall of allies, along with a clear path to the Unbidden territory. Also it seems the Unbidden don't really seem to notice construction ships until they enter the portal system. No idea what's up with that.
Spoiler: Day 3 (click to show/hide)
Those Super Empires stalemating the Unbidden are really starting to freak me out man. Specially considering one of them managed to rip a Fallen Empire in half at some point during day 2. (The Til'Lynesi Primacy that you can see on the far left of Day 1)
Also amusingly it seems that if a primitive society reaches space travel during a Crisis they'll have no idea what's going on and receive none of the "Greater Thread Exists" relationship bonuses. Even more amusing is that in the case of the ones I encountered while learning this (The Tezekan something or another), with their ascension they appear to have unintentionally stole a chunk of territory from the enigmatic observer Fallen Empire (Entheri Guardians) on the far right.
I used to think the same thing about Frontier Outposts. It was either waste one of my 5-7 precious colony slots grabbing some useful resources or take the 2 Influence hit to build a outpost, neither of which seemed worth it. Then I realized I could just throw all my developed planets into a sector with a 75% tax and use the freed up colony slots to start another wave of land grabs. Now I barely use Frontier outposts unless I need to grab an area of space that has no habitable planets.
You are tanking your research. Research costs increase with empire size, so having lots of undeveloped planets is baaaaaad. Especially so if they are planets with no research potential whatsoever.
I kind of think they made frontier posts expensive and with a hard limit on purpose to push us towards warfare, though, both for resource systems, pre-ftl civs and better borders.
Oh goddammit that explains so much. No wonder I've been forced to use zerg rushing to win all my wars.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 13, 2016, 10:29:33 am
Vassals are pretty useless, and protectorates are even more useless, as you are forced to give them access to your precious technology( and I want to be only one with battleships shooting lightening bolts through shields)
How does oversized ship work?
How to get lists of events, factions, ids and stuff? It might be interesting to change faction to prethoryn/ fallen empire/ something of that kind.
What means - 100 % to shields on energy torpedoes if they have 100 % shield bypassing already?
Post by: celem on May 13, 2016, 11:28:53 am
Protectorates upgrade to vassals, and then after 10 years you can integrate them by spending influence. This merges them properly into your civ and gives you a new race to play with in terms of traits and world pref. If their ethics are too harshly opposed to your culture then they are going to be pretty miserable for quite some time though.
not sure on the others
Post by: Neonivek on May 13, 2016, 11:35:15 am
I will say that taking on a technologically superior but military inferior species can be REALLY FREEKEN HARD depending on the tech they have behind them.
I also found that some species advantages and disadvantages pretty much don't matter in the long run... or are secretly amazing...
I just REALLY REALLY wish sectors could look after themselves more... Build space stations, stock them, get out constructors... that jazz.
Post by: Zangi on May 13, 2016, 01:04:04 pm
Distant Worlds requires that the resources be at location (starport/construction machine/base)... or else the construction project grinds to an absolute standstill. It doesn't tell you that you don't have enough resources at location nor the status of the supply chain for said resources. The AI will try to acquire the needed resources, if possible.Shift key. Also you can right click a system and ask it to build all of everything.boy I miss the distant world universe interface, where you can say build this here and ai makes it happenThis. Being able to queue construction would really lower micromanagement.
That's about the extent of it, and goddamn I wish there was an auto button, but that's better than doing it one by one.
Yeah, but this isn't like Distant Worlds, since in Stellaris you need to have available resources in order to order construction, in every screen. :(
But I've seen videos of people not doing Order Queueing with Shift even on Science ships. Even though they will evade hostile aliens a lot, it just seems crazy not to queue some systems.
Freighters will automatically collect the needed resources from mines/storage hubs and will even purchase it from a neighboring empire if they are non-belligerent and have the spare resources to sell. Freighters will also automatically stockpile resources on its own, but that could be a limited amount and the travel distance much greater.
That supply chain can be disrupted by pirates/hostiles. The source can be blown up. Or if the source is via trade, same problems can happen for them.
Yes, you can put in an order for a hundred capital-sized boats you don't have the resources for at the barren fringes of your empire and it'll get done eventually. But it will stall for years if the supply chain is unable to supply it in a timely matter.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 13, 2016, 01:05:21 pm
How does oversized ship work?
What means - 100 % to shields on energy torpedoes if they have 100 % shield bypassing already?
It is a single ship you can build per ruler. Unfortunately it is pretty boring and only has increased hull points, to my understanding.
Some weapons bypass shields, some weapons do extra damage to shields. If a weapon has both I guess it means it passes through shields and damages them with a multiplier from its base damage at the same time.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 13, 2016, 01:09:02 pm
...especially if you're independent minded and thus can't forcefully relocate them. We in the Space Confederacy (version 1) support individual rights, even among xeno scum, and find it therefore better to kill them than force them to relocate. For Humanity!
I was trying to make a nation like Revolutionary War United States, where individual rights were essential for the White Man, but the Black Man was a slave. Then realized it would probably be more like the Confederacy, and made it an oligarchy. For the record, the ideal mix is Individual 1, Xenophobe 2, then your empire is ok with enslaving Xenos. At 1 each, they still protest, giving a Post-Civil War America where slavery is frowned upon but the Prime Species still doesn't want to live next to the Others. Sadly, the only solution seems to be going Nazi. I'm probably going to fiddle around with migration first (the xenos we let in are still friends, and I'd like to use them as a buffer for offensive wars, so the empire I'm invading can't attack me but I can cripple them).
EDIT: You CAN forcefully resettle Slaves as Indy 1. So I can move all the xenos off the prime worlds, but I need to limit their migration first. And probably consider just releasing their penal colony as a vassal.
Post by: Smitehappy on May 13, 2016, 01:28:27 pm
I used to think the same thing about Frontier Outposts. It was either waste one of my 5-7 precious colony slots grabbing some useful resources or take the 2 Influence hit to build a outpost, neither of which seemed worth it. Then I realized I could just throw all my developed planets into a sector with a 75% tax and use the freed up colony slots to start another wave of land grabs. Now I barely use Frontier outposts unless I need to grab an area of space that has no habitable planets.
You are tanking your research. Research costs increase with empire size, so having lots of undeveloped planets is baaaaaad. Especially so if they are planets with no research potential whatsoever.
I kind of think they made frontier posts expensive and with a hard limit on purpose to push us towards warfare, though, both for resource systems, pre-ftl civs and better borders.
Oh goddammit that explains so much. No wonder I've been forced to use zerg rushing to win all my wars.
For every population past 10, the modifier for research costs is increased by +2%. So at 60 population your paying 200% of research costs. Keep in mind this is a flat +2% addition to the modifier. It's not 1.02 * (X * 1.02), where X is the base cost.
Say at 10 pop you were generating 15 for all three sciences types. To keep the same research rate as you had at 10, when you have 60 population, you need to generate an additional 15 research in each category.
Assume you divided that 50 population across just three 17 tile planets (Rounding up a bit to 51 pop). That means each planet, when fully developed, needs to generate 15 science. A tile with just a basic science lab, ignoring the tiles natural resource, generates 3 science. That's 5 of the 17 tiles on a planet dedicated to labs to eat the research deficit for the local pop. Not a huge sacrifice for the minerals and energy you get from expanding.
Not only have I ignored the labs tile resource (You should be building labs on sciences tiles anyways) here, but I've also ignored the additional science gained from building research stations in the systems adjacent to the new colony. In addition there are plenty of positive, percentile modifiers to your science gains mid to late game and you can upgrade you science labs to compensate as well.
What this essentially means is that a large nation and small nation can relatively compete tech wise. IE: Small nation that spends 30% of its income on science == Large nation that spends 30% of its income on science.
In short, you're fine expanding if you just make sure to not neglect your science income.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 13, 2016, 01:37:51 pm
Welp, stellaris is so bugged, that even some console commands are bugged and not working, wew.
Do kinetic weapons get stopped by shielding?
Post by: andrea on May 13, 2016, 01:39:26 pm
Post by: Smitehappy on May 13, 2016, 01:47:28 pm
in the long term, it is fine. The problem is if you start spamming colonies everywhere like if it was Civ 3. Sure, after they are well developed you will beat those who stayed small. But for a while, you will develope slower. Expansion makes you more powerful, but the game punishes you for fast overextension. As soon as players adjust, that should no longer be much of a problem.
Why would you develop slower? When you start a colony you only have 1 population on the planet, so it's only a 2% addition to science modifier. As long as you make every 3rd of 4th improvement a lab, you completely offset the modifier. The ONLY downside to starting a colony in this game is the temporary Energy Credit deficit you experience while the colony is being set up on the planet and that's temporary. It's easy to offset the lost credits in a couple months as well, as long as you build a power plant on the new colony or a mining station on a nearby Energy Credit node.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 13, 2016, 01:55:45 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My genocidal rampages have made me the enemy of most of the galaxy, the only people who don't hate me are some sort of capitalist humans who are more scared than hateful and the Rekthalar Unity - a fallen Empire that finds my genocidal rampages the cute actions of misguided children (seriously they get an opinion bonus every time I genocide people). I've found the federations have been getting larger and larger and even my fuckhueg Empire is reaching its limits, so I may need to adjust strategy to years of orbital bombardment followed by gulag planet on the survivors
Post by: JacenHanLovesLegos on May 13, 2016, 01:56:27 pm
Code: [Select]
DWA1 = {
selectable = yes
ship_names = {
generic = {
"Battleaxe" "Warhammer" "Shield" "Buckler" "Shortsword" "Spear" "Helm" "Crossbow" "Mace" "Gauntlet" "Glove" "Cloak" "Boot" "Breastplate" "Lash" "Dagger" "Pick" "Beard" "Sock" "Tunic" "Bow"
}
corvette = {
"Badger" "Warthog" "Eagle" "Raven" "Buzzard" "Ocelot" "Moose" "Kangaroo" "Wild Boar" "Elk" "Emu" "Coyote" "Deer" "Capybara" "Beak Dog" "Mamba" "Fox" "Copperhead"
}
constructor = {
"Megaproject" "Mason" "Megafortress"
}
colonizer = {
"Wagon" "Spring Caravan" "Summer Caravan" "Autumn Caravan" "Strike the Earth"
}
science = {
"Unfortunate Accident" "Happy Fun Stuff" "Kitten Apocalypse" "Cavern Collapse" "Catsplosion" "!!Science!!" "Magma"
}
destroyer = {
"Yeti" "Elephant" "Tiger" "Leopard" "Giant Eagle" "Grizzly Bear" "Black Bear" "Jaguar" "Hyena" "Lion" "Polar Bear" "Giant Python" "Gorilla" "Giraffe" "Honey Badger" "Jackal" "Wolf"
}
cruiser = {
"Blind Cave Ogre" "Cave Crocodile" "Plump Helmet Man" "Trogdolyte" "Cave Blob" "Giant Cave Spider" "Giant Cave Swallow" "Cave Dragon" "Hungry Head" "Jabberer" "Pond Grabber" "Draltha"
}
battleship = {
"Forgotten Beast" "Titan" "Bronze Colossus" "Hydra" "Dragon" "Roc" "Cyclops" "Ettin" "Giant" "Minotaur" "Centaur" "Chimera" "Griffon"
}
orbital_station = { }
mining_station = { }
research_station = { }
wormhole_station = { }
terraform_station = { }
observation_station = { }
outpost_station = {
sequential_name = "%O% Frontier Outpost"
}
transport = {
}
military_station_small = {}
military_station_medium = {}
military_station_large = {}
}
fleet_names = {
random_names = {
"The Gloved Lightnings" "The Laborious Stones" "The Barricaded Doctrines" "The Elevated Rocks" "The Mechanical Planets" "The Turquoise Tusks" "The Laborious Nourishment" "The Hopeful Pages" "The Savage Merchants" "The Honest Rags" "The Messianic Papers" "The Creative Robustness" "The Infinite Clasps" "The Indigo Fortresses"
}
sequential_name = "%O% Squadron"
}
### ARMIES
army_names = {
defense_army = {
sequential_name = "%O% Dwarven Militia"
}
assault_army = {
sequential_name = "%O% Dwarven Berserkers"
}
slave_army = {
sequential_name = "%O% Subjected Army"
}
clone_army = {
sequential_name = "%O% Hauler Brigade"
}
robotic_army = {
sequential_name = "Mecha-Dwarf %R%"
}
android_army = {
sequential_name = "Andwarf Forces %R"
}
psionic_army = {
sequential_name = "%O% Psi-Dwarf Brigade"
}
xenomorph_army = {
sequential_name = "%O% Xeno Squad"
}
gene_warrior_army = {
sequential_name = "%O% Science Army"
}
}
planet_names = {
# Names that can be assigned to all planet types
generic = {
names = {
"Boatmurdered" "Ironhold" "Icehold" "Headshoots" "Battlefailed" "Gemclod" "Ardentdikes" "Skyscrapes" "Necrothreat" "Spearbreakers" "Nist Akath" "Oceanbridge" "Brightwater" "Bronzemurder" "Flarechannel" "Copperblazes" "Soaplanterns" "Sparkgear" "Syrupleaf" "Deathgate" "Moltenchannels" "Breadbowl" "Murdermachines" "Towersoared" "Amberjewel" "Doomforest" "Cowpastures" "Watergate" "Breadbowl"
}
}
pc_desert = {
names = {
}
}
pc_arid = {
names = {
}
}
pc_tropical = {
names = {
}
}
pc_continental = {
names = {
}
}
pc_ocean = {
names = {
}
}
pc_tundra = {
names = {
}
}
pc_arctic = {
names = {
}
}
}
### CHARACTERS
character_names = {
default = {
# A complete name
full_names = {
}
# Always combined with a second name
first_names = {
"Urist" "Cog" "Zon" "Ral" "Zuntir" "Lokum" "Udib" "Udil" "Unib" "Deduk" "Rakust" "Thudib" "Nikot" "Sedil" "Rulroth" "Alod" "Geb" "Zareth" "Olum" "Atul" "Tholtig"
}
# Always combined with a first name
second_names = {
"Olondatur" "Mamotmosus" "Athamoltar" "Idust" "Olonmuzish" "Momuzdodok" "Thakdoren" "Kubukatol" "Lelumshem" "Nikotdastot" "Athelrab" "Estunkogan" "Mamotlogem" "Omirstoddom" "Osodas" "Limulreg" "Sakzulral" "Rallorsith" "Riraskubuk" "Sazirsezuk" "Lirukakrul" "Estunkogan" "Tusungmorul" "Idokmorul" "Urdimuker" "Thobritan"
}
regnal_first_names = {
"Urist" "Cog" "Zon" "Ral" "Zuntir" "Lokum" "Udib" "Udil" "Unib" "Deduk" "Rakust" "Thudib" "Nikot" "Sedil" "Rulroth" "Alod" "Geb" "Zareth" "Olum" "Atul" "Tholtig"
}
regnal_second_names = {
"Olondatur" "Mamotmosus" "Athamoltar" "Idust" "Olonmuzish" "Momuzdodok" "Thakdoren" "Kubukatol" "Lelumshem" "Nikotdastot" "Athelrab" "Estunkogan" "Mamotlogem" "Omirstoddom" "Osodas" "Limulreg" "Sakzulral" "Rallorsith" "Riraskubuk" "Sazirsezuk" "Lirukakrul" "Estunkogan" "Tusungmorul" "Idokmorul" "Urdimuker" "Thobritan"
}
}
}
}To use it, copy the text into a notepad file in the "Stellaris/common/name_lists" folder.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 13, 2016, 02:33:39 pm
Post by: Smitehappy on May 13, 2016, 02:40:14 pm
lost two top notch scientist to the retarded evading behavior, is there a way to disable/override it?
Set their behavior to Passive, they'll ignore enemies. It's a button on the right of the ship menu when you select it.
Keep in mind, that means that unless you intervene they will likely get killed. Keep an eye out for warnings about enemy ships though and you should be fine.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 13, 2016, 02:41:04 pm
lost two top notch scientist to the retarded evading behavior, is there a way to disable/override it?
Set their behavior to Passive, they'll ignore enemies. It's a button on the right of the ship menu when you select it.
Keep in mind, that means that unless you intervene they will likely get killed. Keep an eye out for warnings about enemy ships though and you should be fine.
eh better than them running toward the sieged capital ::)
also not having a chance of even researching appropriate defensive measures unless the RNGOD says so is aggravating.
Post by: Orb on May 13, 2016, 02:59:09 pm
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 13, 2016, 03:05:53 pm
The science government in its basic form gives you +1 choice, and in its advanced form +2 choices. Combine that with the +1 choice from the physics research and mid game you're looking at 7 choices for every field. That should let you get whatever techs you want fairly easily. Just remember to scroll through the choices, they don't all fit in the UI.
keyword: mid game. playing xenophobic militaristic basically means waiting out until then, because early combat is just annoying - rock paper scissor strategy already sucks, but here you get to play just rock for, like, two hours? same problem as civilization game, first two hours are just to set up the mid game scenario and the random exploration stuff is the filler to get you there.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 13, 2016, 03:26:33 pm
5 instead of four is already big difference.
Post by: Sartain on May 13, 2016, 04:15:07 pm
Post by: Gabeux on May 13, 2016, 04:27:53 pm
I've found Sol a couple of times.
First time was during WW2, and the second modern-day. It has uniquely named armies.
I've found Sol too but the strongest alliance (after mine) holds it, and the empire holding it has the weird habit of turning every small neighbor and uplifted species into vassals.
I'll eventually fight them, but will take a while since it'll probably be the last war in this first playthrough..and I kinda want to wait for patches otherwise it'll take days just to take all over. ::)
Post by: redwallzyl on May 13, 2016, 04:29:39 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 13, 2016, 05:12:24 pm
Post by: Gabeux on May 13, 2016, 05:36:09 pm
"This is how XCOM happens from the other side" - Scott Manley about Stellaris.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 13, 2016, 05:52:21 pm
I imagine most players would just get annoyed and devote all their resources to stamping them out...
Post by: Majestic7 on May 13, 2016, 06:12:42 pm
Post by: Sartain on May 13, 2016, 07:31:25 pm
In my current multi-culturalist game, I conquered a planet from a neighbor of mine. Unfortunately that planet had both regular and Trans-versions of the Steccashi race, and the Trans ones were really xenophobic and not very happy with being under the heel of benevolent alien overlords. Cue 15 years of domestic terrorism and general shitty times on planet Tirnaga.
Then I attacked the same foe a second time and liberated a handful of planets peopled mainly by Trans-Steccashians, thus creating a fawning Trans-Steccashi ally. A few diplomatic talks later and every angry Trans-Steccashi on the planet I own gets a free ticket to the newly formed Trans-Steccashi League territory, ridding me of domestic terrorism and even giving me a diplomatic bonus to boot. And the beautiful thing is it's a one-way agreement so they aren't coming back either :D
Post by: Sartain on May 13, 2016, 07:58:15 pm
Post by: Neonivek on May 13, 2016, 08:17:31 pm
It seems incredibly hypocritical in fact.
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 13, 2016, 08:36:42 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 13, 2016, 08:51:19 pm
Everything went pretty well, as I managed to get some good and cheap researchers and workers with similar views from unhappy warmongering shitholes, so economy and research skyrocketed.
But then started immigration of religious militaristic rapid breeding bugs, which make everyone around them unhappy.
Then said bugs get unhappy because everyone around them is not religious enough. Borders cant be closed, goverment is forced to spend all political influence on bribing bugs leaders, because immigrants start blowing up my food producing buildings and cause even more rage with starting starvation, plan of supressing information via degree to stop ethics divergence does not work out, as with not enough influence your degrees stop working. And it is totally impossible to change any damn policies, because of 10 years waiting period.
Meanwhile one of shitholes I accepted immigrants earlier rightfully liberates planet with grand part of LU industry and their industrious awesome avian ex-citizens, which immigrated to me earlier, the invasion was so swift, that it looked like AI prepared specially for this day. Bugs elect their own president, who has food production bonus, so starting human population begins leaving due to being unhappy with being overwhelmed by religious insects and bugs use food surplus to reproduce even more on my capital.
To finish that on the last remaining noncapital world insectoid separatists liberate themself from my ,, opression "( u wot, like I was liberal island of freedom, science and prosperity in sea of militarist underdeveloped religious unhappy shitholes with slavery before you guys started immigrating, then you ruined everything, but I am still guilty somehow?)
So ends liberal union gaming experience.
Imperium policies worked waaay better.
Post by: Neonivek on May 13, 2016, 08:52:51 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on May 13, 2016, 08:58:10 pm
in the long term, it is fine. The problem is if you start spamming colonies everywhere like if it was Civ 3. Sure, after they are well developed you will beat those who stayed small. But for a while, you will develope slower. Expansion makes you more powerful, but the game punishes you for fast overextension. As soon as players adjust, that should no longer be much of a problem.
Why would you develop slower? When you start a colony you only have 1 population on the planet, so it's only a 2% addition to science modifier. As long as you make every 3rd of 4th improvement a lab, you completely offset the modifier. The ONLY downside to starting a colony in this game is the temporary Energy Credit deficit you experience while the colony is being set up on the planet and that's temporary. It's easy to offset the lost credits in a couple months as well, as long as you build a power plant on the new colony or a mining station on a nearby Energy Credit node.
I also like that every colony can have a Spaceport, which in some cases is reason enough to expand. More ships with less upkeep? Yes Please!
Post by: EuchreJack on May 13, 2016, 09:03:26 pm
Tried LU playthrough, glorius liberal materialist human union, which sees every new species as equal part in grand mosaic of the universe.
Everything went pretty well, as I managed to get some good and cheap researchers and workers with similar views from unhappy warmongering shitholes, so economy and research skyrocketed.
But then started immigration of religious militaristic rapid breeding bugs, which make everyone around them unhappy.
Then said bugs get unhappy because everyone around them is not religious enough. Borders cant be closed, goverment is forced to spend all political influence on bribing bugs leaders, because immigrants start blowing up my food producing buildings and cause even more rage with starting starvation, plan of supressing information via degree to stop ethics divergence does not work out, as with not enough influence your degrees stop working. And it is totally impossible to change any damn policies, because of 10 years waiting period.
Meanwhile one of shitholes I accepted immigrants earlier rightfully liberates planet with grand part of LU industry and their industrious awesome avian ex-citizens, which immigrated to me earlier, the invasion was so swift, that it looked like AI prepared specially for this day. Bugs elect their own president, who has food production bonus, so starting human population begins leaving due to being unhappy with being overwhelmed by religious insects and bugs use food surplus to reproduce even more on my capital.
To finish that on the last remaining noncapital world insectoid separatists liberate themself from my ,, opression "( u wot, like I was liberal island of freedom, science and prosperity in sea of militarist underdeveloped religious unhappy shitholes with slavery before you guys started immigrating, then you ruined everything, but I am still guilty somehow?)
So ends liberal union gaming experience.
Imperium policies worked waaay better.
I had a similar problem with my Xenophobic Individualists (aka the United States before Brown vs Board of Education). You really have to watch whom gets your migration agreements. It might have been possible to fix your problem, but without the save dunno really.
Losing is fun, right?
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 13, 2016, 09:48:27 pm
You want to use certain policies to limit them. As well genetically modifying them so they aren't ugly helps a lot too.Whilst searching for alternative ways to Stalin conquered people into nonexistence without incurring the wrath of the galactic community (orbital bombardment is unfortunately impractically inefficient to killing them all, at its best I managed to turn half a gaia world into a wasteland but survivors still clung on) I found some liberal democratic xenophilic federation builders - the problem being they were uncharismatic and hideous things, desperately trying to make friends with everyone around them whilst their neighbours were grossly detested by their presence. Federation building aint easy
Post by: EuchreJack on May 13, 2016, 10:07:38 pm
The science government in its basic form gives you +1 choice, and in its advanced form +2 choices. Combine that with the +1 choice from the physics research and mid game you're looking at 7 choices for every field. That should let you get whatever techs you want fairly easily. Just remember to scroll through the choices, they don't all fit in the UI.
keyword: mid game. playing xenophobic militaristic basically means waiting out until then, because early combat is just annoying - rock paper scissor strategy already sucks, but here you get to play just rock for, like, two hours? same problem as civilization game, first two hours are just to set up the mid game scenario and the random exploration stuff is the filler to get you there.
While agree that Rock/Paper/Scissor techs are annoying (why, for example, must there be three?), your analysis is wrong.
Armor/Shields only give a ~7% damage reduction at level one, and still needs to be researched. The only thing I know about Point Defense is that it takes weapons slots, ergo less weapons to attack. So overall, it isn't until midgame that anyone has defense systems that really hinder your weapons anyways. Just use more Dakka.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 13, 2016, 10:14:19 pm
does the target have PD?
yes->use lasers
nope->use torps
torps bypass shields, do the most damage, have the longest range, and never miss. lasers are somewhat better on armor and skip PD. but projectile weapons are just bad.
Post by: Gabeux on May 13, 2016, 10:56:50 pm
But since they have like ~0.25 units of DPS lower than Laser T3, the Auto-Designer don't put them on your ships until you get the second tiers of those guns..but the bonus does make the damage higher than Lasers/Missiles, right?
I didn't pay attention to this, and I only recently started designing my own Destroyers and Cruisers since I'm usually fine with the auto-designed Corvettes.
I haven't played in a few days, though, so I don't have bigger ships or better tech yet. I got to Plasma T2 scanning debris from a smaller, slower, stupider enemy nation that somehow ditched more damage than me (because I didn't know about the higher research costs and all that).
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on May 13, 2016, 11:12:17 pm
From the subreddit (https://imgur.com/MzxjJLs)
This is amazing!
Post by: Man of Paper on May 13, 2016, 11:27:11 pm
In other news, I just came across these guys in a modded game (you'll never guess which mod)...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So I got some individualist pacifist spiritualist nids, if you're still warming up on your knowledge of the symbol jawns. As is probably clear, as The Chosen Few I'm a Chaos Space Marines (Fanatic Militarist, Individualist), so I don't really have any moral issue with letting them hang out.
Edit: Oh and for a little more on my current game, the first civ I come across are some fellow Fanatic Militarist Individualists in the form of the Adeptus Mechanicus. The first transmission they sent as soon as we understood one another was a declaration of rivalry. I like to imagine that as two groups who define themselves on the battlefield that it's more of a "Let's see who's strongest, may the best man win, I won't even be mad if I lose" kind of thing.
Post by: Neonivek on May 13, 2016, 11:53:45 pm
You can uplift Non-sentients and you can advance bronze age primitives (or just take them over).
But REALLY there is nothing you can do with Cavemen? Can't abduct them? Re-educate them? anything?
Edit: Nevermind there are things you can do... but WOW is it limited... and only if your a slaver.
Post by: darkflagrance on May 14, 2016, 12:48:29 am
Tried LU playthrough, glorius liberal materialist human union, which sees every new species as equal part in grand mosaic of the universe.
Everything went pretty well, as I managed to get some good and cheap researchers and workers with similar views from unhappy warmongering shitholes, so economy and research skyrocketed.
But then started immigration of religious militaristic rapid breeding bugs, which make everyone around them unhappy.
Then said bugs get unhappy because everyone around them is not religious enough. Borders cant be closed, goverment is forced to spend all political influence on bribing bugs leaders, because immigrants start blowing up my food producing buildings and cause even more rage with starting starvation, plan of supressing information via degree to stop ethics divergence does not work out, as with not enough influence your degrees stop working. And it is totally impossible to change any damn policies, because of 10 years waiting period.
Meanwhile one of shitholes I accepted immigrants earlier rightfully liberates planet with grand part of LU industry and their industrious awesome avian ex-citizens, which immigrated to me earlier, the invasion was so swift, that it looked like AI prepared specially for this day. Bugs elect their own president, who has food production bonus, so starting human population begins leaving due to being unhappy with being overwhelmed by religious insects and bugs use food surplus to reproduce even more on my capital.
To finish that on the last remaining noncapital world insectoid separatists liberate themself from my ,, opression "( u wot, like I was liberal island of freedom, science and prosperity in sea of militarist underdeveloped religious unhappy shitholes with slavery before you guys started immigrating, then you ruined everything, but I am still guilty somehow?)
So ends liberal union gaming experience.
Imperium policies worked waaay better.
For some reason this plotline feels uncomfortably familiar...
Post by: Majestic7 on May 14, 2016, 12:55:48 am
The infiltration malus (-25 invaded) to happiness must be a bug, though. Either that or the fluff text is wrong. Anyway, I hope in the future we can manipulate pre-FTL species more with infiltration/enlightenment/aggressive probing, such as change their values or the like with enough time.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 14, 2016, 01:58:33 am
Say I had a fleet with a decent amount of 2 corvette classes and a few destroyers. The first corvette class is just a simple laser ship. Lasers, armor, and shielding. That should be hostile, right? No point in trying to protect it?
The second corvette is a dedicated PD ship. A single laser, armor, shielding, and 2 PD weapons. Should this be defensive or aggressive? I would assume defensive since this ship shouldn't be at the front lines, but wouldn't that put the PD weapons out of range? Or am I just overthinking it?
And the destroyer is another generic destroyer - guns and defense. This should be set to defense as its the "MVP" class of the fleet and therefore should be kept alive to continue doing damage, right?
Post by: celem on May 14, 2016, 02:04:57 am
Anyone else feel like Stone Age Primatives are an oversight?
...
Edit: Nevermind there are things you can do... but WOW is it limited... and only if your a slaver.
Yeah its pretty weak, I was able to colonize the world but didnt want to enslave them all so went for the science option. (enclaves, creates primitive tile blockers) With the right techs and buildings it becomes an insane Social Science world, you basically do nothing but observe them all day long.
But its such an edge use, your only other option is just enslave them all if you have that kind of empire.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 14, 2016, 03:22:01 am
Anyone else feel like Stone Age Primatives are an oversight?Whilst I was busy conquering the fish people and figuring a way how to destroy them without being labeled a genocidal threat to the galaxy I figured I'd settle with enslaving the survivors and relocating them to border worlds - one of the funniest being my distant outpost on another spiral arm of the milky way.
You can uplift Non-sentients and you can advance bronze age primitives (or just take them over).
But REALLY there is nothing you can do with Cavemen? Can't abduct them? Re-educate them? anything?
Edit: Nevermind there are things you can do... but WOW is it limited... and only if your a slaver.
Standing in the path of some sort of interdimensional swarm, my local rival and without direct support being available in any capacity, I figured this was a job for fish people. It got even better when I figured out there were non-sentient primitive fish people there.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
If I can't find some way to get my Zukkakan fishmen to forcibly mass migrate into everyone else's Empires then once I've relocated a colony to the safety of my Empire's interior, I shall begin mass producing Zukkakan colony pods and send them across the galaxy. I can't be bothered to learn the name of the civilized fish people, I think it's funnier if they know their less evolved cousins are superior to them in every way - I just love how the Zukkakan are always happy :D
Literally, I can send the Zukkakan from their icy-waters, their natural habitat to some arid desert and they don't care. They get along just fine.
The fact that their more civilized cousins whinge so much will be used against them, as once I set up more and more colonies with Zukkakan and Evolved alike, I shall designate them in sectors and use the outraged Evolved ones to generate secessionists and thus generate whole sectors populated by Zukkakan and Evolved. I suspect the Evolved will take control of all of these factions given that the Zukkakan lack any ability to lead anything but a happy, simple life, but that doesn't matter - the Zukkakan will far outbreed the Evolved and thus accost them every day for all eternity.
With luck, they shall spread throughout the world and bog down all the other Empires in Zukkakan.
Lil happy fishmen, I swear I'll make whole aquarium worlds just for them, for my Miroslavs have become galactic tropical fish breeders :3
By the way, what's all this about uplifting? My technology revolves around terraforming, battleships and anti-corvette weapons. Can I explosively evolve all my Zukkakan colonies I'm seeding the world with?
*EDIT
Seriously I tried keeping hamster people, but they developed nuclear weapons and brought an end to their own civilization with devastating civil war. I am still nurturing their recovery back to health in the toxic wasteland that was once their home. Zukkakan are much better
*EDIT
All my colony pods landed and made shelters, but it seems the Zukkakan did not survive - I don't think the game intended for you to use pre-sentient species as pan-galactic cane toads. Time to see if there's some modding that could fix this!
Post by: Orb on May 14, 2016, 04:14:40 am
Okay I'm really not getting combat specializations.
Say I had a fleet with a decent amount of 2 corvette classes and a few destroyers. The first corvette class is just a simple laser ship. Lasers, armor, and shielding. That should be hostile, right? No point in trying to protect it?
The second corvette is a dedicated PD ship. A single laser, armor, shielding, and 2 PD weapons. Should this be defensive or aggressive? I would assume defensive since this ship shouldn't be at the front lines, but wouldn't that put the PD weapons out of range? Or am I just overthinking it?
And the destroyer is another generic destroyer - guns and defense. This should be set to defense as its the "MVP" class of the fleet and therefore should be kept alive to continue doing damage, right?
You're talking about the AI buffs, right? Basic combat roles?
There's an important things about fleet combat that isn't readily evident: Smaller ships pack closer together and engage first, while larger ships tend to hang out back and throw slugs. This means your corvettes/destroyers (especially corvettes) will be taking the most damage, while your cruisers/battleships will chill in the back. As far as combat roles, this means you should give your corvettes defensive AI, and your destroyers offensive AI. I'm pretty sure the description for the AI modules is just fluff, pay attention to the stats. If you want your PD to not be at the front lines, just put it on the destroyers. They stay close enough to shoot down missiles but don't get shot at themselves.
This also means you should give your bigger ships bigger weapons, as they need the range to even be a part of the early fight at all (this also means hangers suck on battleships). I wouldn't recommend missiles in large mounts, since I think they take only one PD shot to take down, and they don't get extra health or anything, just range.
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 14, 2016, 04:36:23 am
I normally go lasers on my small ships, torpedoes and PD on the big ships. Then again I'm also the sort of person who spams military stations everywhere and spends 500 EC/month on upkeeping the useless things.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 14, 2016, 04:41:42 am
Hangars suck on everything.Anti missile/corvette duty/literally everything that gets close
I normally go lasers on my small ships, torpedoes and PD on the big ships. Then again I'm also the sort of person who spams military stations everywhere and spends 500 EC/month on upkeeping the useless things.Personally I find there's something more appealing with the huge "fuck off" value in a battleship fleet that is irreplaceably ancient and takes a decade to upgrade. Get a quarter on chain lightning, a quarter on heavy lasers, a quarter on shit tons of missiles and everything else copious amounts of plasma/bombers/fighters = everything evaporates before it gets close, whereupon it disintegrates
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 14, 2016, 05:01:46 am
Anti missile/corvette duty/literally everything that gets closeI dunno, I've never really had a problem with things getting close to my battleships. Then again I have like three of them surrounded by hundreds of corvettes/destroyers.
Personally I find there's something more appealing with the huge "fuck off" value in a battleship fleet that is irreplaceably ancient and takes a decade to upgrade.I do it the French way. Build an obscene number of fortresses and hope the enemy doesn't work out how to go around them.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 14, 2016, 05:38:39 am
Plasma guns + disruptors is already pretty cheesy combo, as AI fleet managed to inflict some casaulties on my battleships despite them having sentient AI, 2700 shielding and top tier weapons. And energy weapon research grants you arc lightening guns, which combine good damage + high chance to bypass shield + bypassing armour + they not only damage one ship, but lightening jumps form one ship to another, so large parts of mosquito fleets can be wiped out in first minutes of battle.
Corvettes are worth sticking best possible engine and defensive computer on them, because you can achieve something like 60 % dodge chance.
Hangars, well, there is kind of defensive stations, which make enemy to perform their ftl jump right on top of the station,such fortress right above the star and filled with bombers and minefield can be rather brutal, bonus points for going full Rogal Dorn and surrounding this fortress with one more long ranged weapon fortress with minefield on each side + give each of those fortresses one of four kekworthy effects like - 20 % shields for enemy fleets, - 20 % firerate and stuff.
Is there way to break into psyonic research after unlocking everything of value as materialists?
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 14, 2016, 06:35:53 am
Post by: Sartain on May 14, 2016, 06:55:46 am
Edit: It also seems that apparently you cannot orbital bombard a colony being established if you're not in contact with the race making it, even though you have aggressive First Contact protocol :/
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 14, 2016, 07:02:51 am
Side note: I was looking at the Stellaris wiki for various insights, and I am very amused by the fact that the "Diplomacy" section has under it such topics as "Trade", "Alliances and Federations", and "Orbital Bombardment". :PI like how orbital bombardment is the only one of these that isn't totally broken
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 14, 2016, 07:32:49 am
Side note: I was looking at the Stellaris wiki for various insights, and I am very amused by the fact that the "Diplomacy" section has under it such topics as "Trade", "Alliances and Federations", and "Orbital Bombardment". :PI like how orbital bombardment is the only one of these that isn't totally broken
It takes 30 years to wipe out 3 units of pop, yes, not broken. Same as 8 range of aircraft.
Post by: Biowraith on May 14, 2016, 09:40:19 am
Is there way to break into psyonic research after unlocking everything of value as materialists?The only way for Materialists to get access to psionic research is if they luck out and get a scientist leader with the Psionic trait - they will then have a chance of it turning up while that leader is assigned to Society research.
Post by: Mookzen on May 14, 2016, 09:53:20 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 14, 2016, 10:00:56 am
I've heard that the AI in the game is really bad, is this true ?
true. not just the empire ai, but also the single unit ai
also every piece of the UI is infuriating, from single/double click inconsistency to menus that have focused by default the wrong option, up to and including the load screen, which select the latest empire but the oldest save by default. I mean it's 2016 how hard is it to get the save/load process right?
Post by: Noel.se on May 14, 2016, 10:58:37 am
Things turned out... differently.
Spoiler: Image (click to show/hide)
Luckily I managed to dance around their fleets to avoid taking on more than one at a time and to quickly destroy the source of the problem. As a result my genocidal empire saved the entire galaxy. A few years later, and everyone hates me again.
Time to use the advanced tech I got out of this "crisis" to purge those ungrateful xeno bastards.
Post by: celem on May 14, 2016, 11:18:45 am
edit: And yes the AI is very bad. Apart from endgame spoiler foes theres nothing to threaten the strategic player, they are simply incapable. And the spoilers manage threat by sheer speed of development, still no smart moves.
Post by: Rex_Nex on May 14, 2016, 01:42:35 pm
I've heard that the AI in the game is really bad, is this true ?
Oh lord is it awful. For 4x standards its bad, but when you compare it to previous paradox games you have to wonder what went wrong. Rushed release? Incompetent AI development team? Bugged implementation? A combination? Regardless, it's bad.
Stellaris in general isn't as grand as I hoped, literally. They're marketing it like a grand strategy title, but it's just not. It's just a 4x, no more, no less. I like the empire customization abilities - that's definitely better than most 4x I've played - but the rest of the game is very simple, shallow, and... well, not paradox. In one night you can probably uncover every little thing this game has to offer. I think a lot of the people loving it are diehard paradox players who aren't used to the 4x genre and like that it's something new.
But, in true paradox fashion, It has the possibility to become a lot more than it is if you give it several years worth of DLC. I cant suggest the game to anyone until then. This isn't a 30 dollar mid-2016 title, it's a 100 dollar late 2017 title. Hopefully it'll be a good one.
Post by: Radsoc on May 14, 2016, 02:04:47 pm
Nice bladerunneresque music that fits the pace of the game. No comment on the AI though, as I haven't had any wars yet ~130 years in (I like that you don't have to fight). But yes, I think expanding has been a bit too easy, the AI doesn't catch up. The game is clearly inspired by MoI, and there (at least in the one and only MoI 2) the AI is difficult. But it could of course be due to handicaps.
Now I just need to finish this one game and wait until the never ending stream of DLC-to-be stops :D
Is there a bug with the "spoilers"? I just encountered them.
Post by: Demonic Spoon on May 14, 2016, 02:32:00 pm
Pro: I don't need food
Pro: Production bonuses
Con: Pop needs to be built
Con: That energy consumption
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 14, 2016, 02:52:24 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on May 14, 2016, 03:28:10 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on May 14, 2016, 03:39:09 pm
I've heard that the AI in the game is really bad, is this true ?
Oh lord is it awful. For 4x standards its bad, but when you compare it to previous paradox games you have to wonder what went wrong. Rushed release? Incompetent AI development team? Bugged implementation? A combination? Regardless, it's bad.
Stellaris in general isn't as grand as I hoped, literally. They're marketing it like a grand strategy title, but it's just not. It's just a 4x, no more, no less. I like the empire customization abilities - that's definitely better than most 4x I've played - but the rest of the game is very simple, shallow, and... well, not paradox. In one night you can probably uncover every little thing this game has to offer. I think a lot of the people loving it are diehard paradox players who aren't used to the 4x genre and like that it's something new.
But, in true paradox fashion, It has the possibility to become a lot more than it is if you give it several years worth of DLC. I cant suggest the game to anyone until then. This isn't a 30 dollar mid-2016 title, it's a 100 dollar late 2017 title. Hopefully it'll be a good one.
They don't always finish every title. The biggest risk is that they'll just take the money and run.
...Fortunately, fixes to the AI would probably fall under the free patches that come with the DLCs. Properly playing as Robots, Colonizing Frozen/Barren/Molten/Asteroid/GasGiant, however, are likely DLC materials.
Post by: Greenbane on May 14, 2016, 04:18:58 pm
The base versions of most recent Paradox games have been fairly shallow (thinking CK2 and EU4 here), and a platform for future DLC. And the AI on most any complex strategy game has always been lackluster, particularly at launch. As a 4X game I'm pretty sure it's more solid than the vanilla version of any other 4X game released in the past 10 years at least.
Anyway, I'm not really excusing its flaws, but merely putting them in perspective in relation to the genre. People easily fall into the habit of comparing this to games with years worth of expanded content. Patches and DLCs will definitely come, as it's to be expected from every successful Paradox game. This isn't Sengoku. Stellaris broke sales records already (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-day-one-sales-breaks-paradox-records.927411/), so it wouldn't make much sense for them to abandon it just because some people couldn't contain their hype.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 14, 2016, 04:45:01 pm
Post by: Descan on May 14, 2016, 04:48:07 pm
Anyone else feel like Stone Age Primatives are an oversight?I don't even see pops on planets with stone-age primitives. Just the little icon saying they exist.
You can uplift Non-sentients and you can advance bronze age primitives (or just take them over).
But REALLY there is nothing you can do with Cavemen? Can't abduct them? Re-educate them? anything?
Edit: Nevermind there are things you can do... but WOW is it limited... and only if your a slaver.
Pre-sentients have pops that actually expand (a bug, I hope, because you can't put a colony on a filled tile) and post-neo sentients have pops, but no pops for cavemen? that's weird as hell.
Post by: Mookzen on May 14, 2016, 04:57:33 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 14, 2016, 05:01:56 pm
I mean sure, it's probably not strictly a good AI but as I just said, I've experienced no problems with it so far. Out of curiosity, what are the observed problems with the AI? Am I just not noticing what it's doing wrong, not caring, it's not happening to me, or what?
But no. AI's nowhere near broken in my opinion. Can be improved, but not really worth a priority patch. (Also we've already had two patches.)
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 14, 2016, 05:08:39 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 14, 2016, 05:51:17 pm
Post by: BFEL on May 14, 2016, 06:16:41 pm
shekelsThis is literally your favorite word isn't it?
...mines juxtaposition...
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 14, 2016, 06:48:41 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 14, 2016, 06:56:35 pm
The AI is a thing, yeah. It's quite fond of shuffling around pops on planets for no obvious reason, and completely ignores its war goals in favour of rushing core systems. You'd think that it'd prioritize planets in its war demands or something but nope. It's not entirely braindead but could definitely use some work.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 14, 2016, 07:20:06 pm
Someone should make a bot that scans your post history and calculates your favourite wordHowever
Post by: Noel.se on May 14, 2016, 07:20:31 pm
Is there a bug with the "spoilers"? I just encountered them.
They might have fixed it as the devs are aware of it, but the AI doesn't/didn't attack them because they don't count as an empire. As result they quickly eat up the entire galaxy and become a nightmare to deal with. So, try to get rid of them asap.
Yep, I really hope they improve the AI. I'm really enjoying this game so far, but I really have four issues with it:
-The UI. Small quality of life improvements are needed here and there. Why do I need to exit the galaxy view to dock fleets? Why do I need to scroll through menus that are only half as high as my screen? There are a few other things I can't remember right now. Luckily, this seems like something that will be fixed by free patches. Or mods, though I hope that won't be absolutely necessary.
-Lack of mid- and lategame events, since most events are bound to surveying and anomalies. Paradox tends to add events with DLCs, so I'm not getting my hopes up about free unmodded stuff.
-Fleet balance. Spam corvettes for the damage dealing and soaking, add one or two battleships for the auras. Granted, balance is hard to get right at release, so I'm hoping that patches will fix this. This has a also to do with the stupid way ships tend to behave in battles (for example large ships hang back regardless of weapon loadout, also what is a formation?) which brings us to the fourth issue...
-AI. Lots has been said about this. I try not to look at sector planets in order to avoid getting to upset. Oh, and as I said, the battle AI is beyond braindead. That's the two things I noticed the most
Basically we have a good, solid foundation. The house has yet to be built and sleeping on a concrete floor's hardly appealing, but we have the core of it all down.Yeah. Waiting a few weeks, or maybe months, before buying this isn't a terrible idea If you want to be sure about spending your money well.
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 14, 2016, 08:04:02 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 14, 2016, 08:06:21 pm
Post by: redwallzyl on May 14, 2016, 09:12:04 pm
Post by: Glloyd on May 14, 2016, 09:46:30 pm
i wish you could still build in sectors.
It's fucking silly that you can't. And that you can't resettle to sectors.
Post by: Descan on May 14, 2016, 10:45:35 pm
-The UI. Small quality of life improvements are needed here and there. Why do I need to exit the galaxy view to dock fleets?Click fleet - Look at top of fleet composition window - See four buttons - Click the right-facing "Go To" arrow button - Click planet under your control in the list of planets on the right of the screen that you wish to dock at - Profit.
Cannot do it with Sector planets because reasons, but this is how I do it.
Post by: Baffler on May 14, 2016, 10:52:54 pm
Anyway, a question. Is it possible to give a sector independence without containing an alien homeworld? I set out in an empty galaxy with deliberately chaotic traits, ethics, and government with the intention of creating an HRE in space but I don't seem to be able to release sectors. I hear they can demand independence if their ethics are different enough, but there's some really weird stuff cropping up in the far reaches of the Empire and they're still perfectly content to be ruled by me even when their ethics are directly contrary to the central government's political philosophy. Do I need to Stalin them until they're pissed off enough for a revolt or something?
Post by: Descan on May 14, 2016, 11:00:58 pm
Basically: Yes, Space Stalin. Make them unhappy.
Post by: Mini on May 15, 2016, 12:18:53 am
It seems faction support is almost directly related to unhappiness.Looking through defines it appears that pops won't join factions (and presumably will return to being loyalists if they are already in one) if they have >35% happiness.
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on May 15, 2016, 12:31:01 am
If everyone who isn't a Fanatic Spiritualist Collectivist is getting purged around you, what's possessing you to don a space fedora and get put on the chopping block?
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 15, 2016, 12:40:28 am
Post by: EuchreJack on May 15, 2016, 12:51:25 am
It seems faction support is almost directly related to unhappiness. Disparate ethos turning into faction support goes by way of happiness, so even if they have a happiness malus because of ethos disparity, if they have other things that keep them happy, they won't care to join a faction and won't seek their sector or planets independence.
Basically: Yes, Space Stalin. Make them unhappy.
Maybe just settle a lot of sub-prime planets, like Tundra if you're a Continental nation? So you can release Space Siberia, Yay!
Post by: Noel.se on May 15, 2016, 04:18:40 am
Wait, the UI is part of the AI?Sorry, I worded it badly. Four main Issues with the game, and the AI is one of them.
Click fleet - Look at top of fleet composition window - See four buttons - Click the right-facing "Go To" arrow button - Click planet under your control in the list of planets on the right of the screen that you wish to dock at - Profit.Thanks, I'll look into that. Too bad it doesn't work with sector planets.
Cannot do it with Sector planets because reasons, but this is how I do it.
Post by: RadtheCad on May 15, 2016, 05:57:00 am
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 15, 2016, 06:04:29 am
Looks like I won't be buying this for at least a few years, then. Pity that paradox can't seem to put out a finished game at release- they can't keep this 'dlc train' business plan going forever (people will get fed up eventually), and I'd hate to see them go bust or move away from GS unless there was a suitable replacement company ready.
This game model is sadly becoming more and more popular, it feels more like majority of big gamedevs will push for this way.
Post by: jhxmt on May 15, 2016, 06:12:01 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 15, 2016, 06:18:24 am
they can't keep this 'dlc train' business plan going forever (people will get fed up eventually)Eh. The DLC train has worked so far with their other big games. Stellaris is more underwhelming than other launches but people won't get fed up with it as long as there's plenty of stuff in the free patches and the DLC is of good quality more often than not.
I think people are happy with Paradox's model because of the sheer amount of time you can sink into the games. I've spent 30 hours in Stellaris so far, but if I'd spent that $50 on movie tickets instead I'd be looking at maybe 10-12 hours of entertainment, tops.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 15, 2016, 06:27:54 am
How do I/can I change my overall empire's ethos during play? As my pops' ethics gradually diverge from my original ones, I kind of like the idea of the empire itself changing to match. Yes, fine, we started off as peaceful xenophiles, but as time has gone on and we've met more and more of the horrifying inhuman bastards the shine has worn off, and now we're rampantly xenophobic and militaristic. Can I get that to happen without it being part of a wholesale rebellion (which I guess I then won't control anyway)?
Similarly, I really like to have slaves but for some reason I can't and game won't tell if it's government or ethos. Can one change government btw?
Post by: RadtheCad on May 15, 2016, 06:28:58 am
they can't keep this 'dlc train' business plan going forever (people will get fed up eventually)Eh. The DLC train has worked so far with their other big games. Stellaris is more underwhelming than other launches but people won't get fed up with it as long as there's plenty of stuff in the free patches and the DLC is of good quality more often than not.
I think people are happy with Paradox's model because of the sheer amount of time you can sink into the games. I've spent 30 hours in Stellaris so far, but if I'd spent that $50 on movie tickets instead I'd be looking at maybe 10-12 hours of entertainment, tops.
Sure, but that's not really fair because that's true for most videogames- movies just aren't that cheap per hour of entertainment in general. A better comparison would be stellaris versus other games, or specifically other 4x games. Anyway, maybe I'll buy once the ultimate edition is on sale and the great mods have come out.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 15, 2016, 06:36:55 am
they can't keep this 'dlc train' business plan going forever (people will get fed up eventually)Eh. The DLC train has worked so far with their other big games. Stellaris is more underwhelming than other launches but people won't get fed up with it as long as there's plenty of stuff in the free patches and the DLC is of good quality more often than not.
I think people are happy with Paradox's model because of the sheer amount of time you can sink into the games. I've spent 30 hours in Stellaris so far, but if I'd spent that $50 on movie tickets instead I'd be looking at maybe 10-12 hours of entertainment, tops.
Sure, but that's not really fair because that's true for most videogames- movies just aren't that cheap per hour of entertainment in general. A better comparison would be stellaris versus other games, or specifically other 4x games. Anyway, maybe I'll buy once the ultimate edition is on sale and the great mods have come out.
eh I wish I could rip off stellaris skin and graft it on the DW:U engine :P
edit
also, some ship design are silly
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Man of Paper on May 15, 2016, 06:45:36 am
How do I/can I change my overall empire's ethos during play? As my pops' ethics gradually diverge from my original ones, I kind of like the idea of the empire itself changing to match. Yes, fine, we started off as peaceful xenophiles, but as time has gone on and we've met more and more of the horrifying inhuman bastards the shine has worn off, and now we're rampantly xenophobic and militaristic. Can I get that to happen without it being part of a wholesale rebellion (which I guess I then won't control anyway)?
Similarly, I really like to have slaves but for some reason I can't and game won't tell if it's government or ethos. Can one change government btw?
I just messed around with ethos until it let me make my species with the Decadent trait.
My current empire is Xenophobic Militaristic Materialistic (which allows xenos slavery) and so far I have my home planet and two slave planets. Fun fact, my arm of a fairly populated huge galaxy is almost completely devoid of life. My science ships found two planets in the early space age that we subverted and subsequently enslaved, and that was it for a long, long time. I've got a metric balls-ton of room to expand into. It's great.
Post by: Sartain on May 15, 2016, 07:32:19 am
How do I/can I change my overall empire's ethos during play? As my pops' ethics gradually diverge from my original ones, I kind of like the idea of the empire itself changing to match. Yes, fine, we started off as peaceful xenophiles, but as time has gone on and we've met more and more of the horrifying inhuman bastards the shine has worn off, and now we're rampantly xenophobic and militaristic. Can I get that to happen without it being part of a wholesale rebellion (which I guess I then won't control anyway)?
Similarly, I really like to have slaves but for some reason I can't and game won't tell if it's government or ethos. Can one change government btw?
I think you have to Collectivist or Religious to have slaves, but as mentioned take the Decadent trait in the builder and you can't make a race without having Slavery enabled. Also, check that it's not just a Government tab policy that needs to be toggled.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 15, 2016, 08:11:27 am
Post by: Noel.se on May 15, 2016, 08:14:14 am
So, don't mod your entire empire.
I could enable slavery despite only ethics being fanatic materialists. However xenos only option was locked :cOnly xenophobes can do that, I think.
Post by: Greiger on May 15, 2016, 09:43:30 am
I have mutual migration access with everyone in my alliance, which I actually managed to start myself thanks to neighboring another race with almost exactly my ethics giving them gifts constantly, and then building up a massive battle fleet until they said 'Yannow, we've been calling them glorious sphinxes for a few decades now, maybe we should actually join them' before throwing that battle fleet against a 1.5k bunch of energy clouds guarding a black hole.
And I still have yet to see a single xeno show up on one of my planets. I managed to vassilize and am integrating a species that started out as steam age, despite their opposing ethics out of desperation. Am I doing something wrong? Is there an easier way to make a melting pot empire?
P.S. Also I think I found another bug to add to y'all's buglists. Naturally by having an alliance and attempting to integrate a vassal I am downright hemorrhaging influence. My influence just hit 0 and the integration of the vassal is still progressing at the normal rate. Not being slowed at all by the fact that I only have half the influence income per month that they say they need per month to be integrated.
Post by: lordcooper on May 15, 2016, 11:05:20 am
If all your planets are arid and they prefer ocean then it's not really going to happen.
Post by: Sartain on May 15, 2016, 12:28:47 pm
Apparently if you gene-mod your species, they count as aliens. Which is a problem if your empire is xenophobic. I tried to add a trait to my entire species to make them live longer, and now they're all unhappy because as xenos they are second class citiziens. Even if there literally are no original humans, except for the ruler. There really should be a way to change your primary species.
So, don't mod your entire empire.I could enable slavery despite only ethics being fanatic materialists. However xenos only option was locked :cOnly xenophobes can do that, I think.
Can Xenophiles gene-mod? Would this actually result in them loving themselves more for being aliens? :D
Post by: Noel.se on May 15, 2016, 12:42:44 pm
Apparently if you gene-mod your species, they count as aliens. Which is a problem if your empire is xenophobic. I tried to add a trait to my entire species to make them live longer, and now they're all unhappy because as xenos they are second class citiziens. Even if there literally are no original humans, except for the ruler. There really should be a way to change your primary species.
So, don't mod your entire empire.I could enable slavery despite only ethics being fanatic materialists. However xenos only option was locked :cOnly xenophobes can do that, I think.
Can Xenophiles gene-mod? Would this actually result in them loving themselves more for being aliens? :D
They can gene mod, but aliens are never xenos to themselves. I assume it would make them love members of the original species
Now I wonder if gene-modding a charismatic species would cause modded and non-modded pops to give happiness bonuses to each other. This needs some science, too bad I only played space fascists so far :P
Post by: umiman on May 15, 2016, 01:06:04 pm
Post by: JimboM12 on May 15, 2016, 01:50:57 pm
Welp, goodbye free time, hello SPACEEEEEEEEEE.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 15, 2016, 01:51:52 pm
Post by: majikero on May 15, 2016, 01:54:59 pm
My Plump-helmets are charismatic so I'm testing this out as soon as I get Gene modding.Apparently if you gene-mod your species, they count as aliens. Which is a problem if your empire is xenophobic. I tried to add a trait to my entire species to make them live longer, and now they're all unhappy because as xenos they are second class citiziens. Even if there literally are no original humans, except for the ruler. There really should be a way to change your primary species.
So, don't mod your entire empire.I could enable slavery despite only ethics being fanatic materialists. However xenos only option was locked :cOnly xenophobes can do that, I think.
Can Xenophiles gene-mod? Would this actually result in them loving themselves more for being aliens? :D
They can gene mod, but aliens are never xenos to themselves. I assume it would make them love members of the original species
Now I wonder if gene-modding a charismatic species would cause modded and non-modded pops to give happiness bonuses to each other. This needs some science, too bad I only played space fascists so far :P
Post by: Willfor on May 15, 2016, 02:32:17 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 15, 2016, 02:59:32 pm
Post by: jhxmt on May 15, 2016, 04:14:42 pm
Can one change government btw?
Yes - in the main Empire/Government tab, you can click the government type symbol to change government (at least, the game tells me I can in my game...I haven't tried it yet).
I don't think you can change ethics in-game though, only in-builder. :( Once you've started a game as peaceful xenophiles, you're playing the whole game as them. I think.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on May 15, 2016, 04:36:08 pm
Can one change government btw?
Yes - in the main Empire/Government tab, you can click the government type symbol to change government (at least, the game tells me I can in my game...I haven't tried it yet).
I don't think you can change ethics in-game though, only in-builder. :( Once you've started a game as peaceful xenophiles, you're playing the whole game as them. I think.
It works fine, it actually works pretty well with long species since you can use it be a little gamey at the cost of possible causing a civil war if you die heirless since it deletes your current heir.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 15, 2016, 04:43:07 pm
Post by: Iituem on May 15, 2016, 04:59:20 pm
Genemodded rapid breeding for unhappyness creating xenophobe avian pop from primitive planet, then filled some useless planet with them, arranged visa for those little asshole rapid breeding owls genetically modified to be even more assholes, and let them populate hostile empires, now they riot everywhere and create their own asshole little states.
Subtle, but nasty. I like it.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 15, 2016, 05:50:57 pm
Now that's got me thinking though, space nomad DLC when? It'd pretty much just need CK2s nomad mechanics, but in space
Post by: BFEL on May 15, 2016, 06:18:46 pm
This is pretty cool, because despite the early conflicts, I now have a bunch of adaptive dudes I can switch the preference of to colonize errywhere. Already have four new planets lined up with slightly better then perfect habitability.
Only real downside is they lost the super research-y traits from my main species, but that's fine long as I can keep expanding.
Also modded my super scientistic main species to be extra long lived. Should keep my scientists from dropping like flies and save me some influence.
Also since my main species has the weak trait but the new one doesn't I'll eventually mod them to be my shock troops :3
Post by: Cthulufaic on May 15, 2016, 06:32:07 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on May 15, 2016, 06:49:51 pm
That being said the current "min/max" strategy is just spamming ridiculous amounts of corvettes due to them having absurdly high evade at high technology levels which makes them a bit tough to kill.
I tend to do fine with a few ships of all classes in my fleet
Post by: BFEL on May 15, 2016, 06:55:10 pm
There's a lot of factors to combat, and its still early for people to have discovered the really OP builds and such.
Oh yeah, as mentioned by others small ships always enter combat first while bigger ones hang back, so if you mix and match you probably want the big ships to have good range.
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 15, 2016, 07:22:11 pm
Post by: etgfrog on May 15, 2016, 07:50:47 pm
I use large torpedoes because they're 100% accurate. If you have enough even dedicated PD can't keep up.Corvettes with 1 medium main gun and 1 point defense, tends to deal with most things pretty well. At least when the point defense doesn't bug out randomly after 2 hours of play.
Post by: JimboM12 on May 15, 2016, 07:52:03 pm
My favorite weapons so far are good old fashioned lasers with auto-cannons just cuz dakka. I find Torpedoes fire too slowly for me, I want all my ships opening up with a hail of gunfire.
Post by: GentlemanRaptor on May 15, 2016, 08:15:32 pm
Genemodded rapid breeding for unhappyness creating xenophobe avian pop from primitive planet, then filled some useless planet with them, arranged visa for those little asshole rapid breeding owls genetically modified to be even more assholes, and let them populate hostile empires, now they riot everywhere and create their own asshole little states.
I had thought about trying something like that, and it's good to see that the pop mechanics can be used to cause dissent like that. Gotta give this a go my next run-through.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 15, 2016, 08:47:38 pm
Huh, so I encountered some space nomads - a large fleet traveling through my planets (well, large in relative terms, they posed zero military threat to me), and when they hailed me they revealed themselves to be a nomadic species. After giving a warning on how species like mine (who settled on worlds instead of traveling space) have not lasted as long as they, they disappeared - not before giving me the comlinks of nearly the entire galaxy. Nice space nomads :D
Now that's got me thinking though, space nomad DLC when? It'd pretty much just need CK2s nomad mechanics, but in space
After speaking with the Space Nomads, I've been getting the comm signals of far-off space empires that "overheard me talking to someone else" or "received my comm signal from a mutual friend". I suspect the Space Nomads have been spreading my good name.
...Which come to think of it, the Space Nomads would probably be the ideal Federation Builder, if they were a more formal empire.
Post by: BFEL on May 15, 2016, 08:58:26 pm
The only thing its bad at is making your ships stronger, but it also has stuff to let you spam your crap ass ships as a balance, and its not like you can't just put the other two tech types to prioritize better ships while you do everything else...
Kinda thinking of a build that focuses on it to expand and use super armies to hold everything even if its navy is shit.
Fanatic Militarist/Individualist for army strength and energy credits, Very Strong for epic mega armies and better minerals, probably Sedentary and either Repugnant or Slow Breeders to free up slots, then when gene modding gets researched throw in Resilient to make any planet with armies nigh impossible to take. And once you get the second extra trait slot for it throw in industrious for EVEN MOAR MINERALS.
Focus efforts on taking as many worlds as you can as early as you can, then beefing armies into nigh invulnerable death machines to defend everything once somebody tries to take shit from you.
Post by: Glloyd on May 15, 2016, 09:05:48 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 15, 2016, 09:26:41 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 15, 2016, 09:28:36 pm
Post by: BFEL on May 15, 2016, 09:43:47 pm
Though I SUPPOSE something of a balancing factor in the laser/gun/missile battle is that lasers seem to use the most power of the three. Though that doesn't really count for much atm. Same with defense types really. Shields are power hogs while PD uses a bit and a weapon slot while armor uses absolutely no power whatsoever. I've heard it also doesn't protect from much either though :P
Post by: TheBronzePickle on May 15, 2016, 10:01:36 pm
Post by: umiman on May 16, 2016, 12:35:03 am
--------
I got bored of my huge galaxy with only one empire run. Because I ran into a whole bunch of bugs again. Quest chains that can't end, unidentifiable aliens, uncolonizable planets, etc. etc.
I'm going to try a tiny galaxy with max AI and only hyperspace now.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 16, 2016, 12:53:23 am
And I definitely don't like the suggestion of more temporary coalitions and badboy, lord knows there's a less BS way to make the AI threatening. We don't need MORE unstoppable alliances floating around...
Post by: Majestic7 on May 16, 2016, 01:12:11 am
Regarding ethics, I find it stupid that ethics divergence seems to be to opposite of your government. I think hinterlands should have more divergence in random directions, the same with the edict promoting free thought. It is somewhat logical for very unhappy population to go the opposite of the government ethos as a way of protest, but everyone doing so is silly.
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 16, 2016, 01:25:03 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 16, 2016, 01:51:39 am
Post by: Orb on May 16, 2016, 02:17:43 am
what's the difference between jump types? I know how they work as the in game mechanic but is there any hidden stat to balance the fact that hyperdrives are overly restrictive compared to warp drives?
Upon warping in ships equipped with warp drives can't do anything for a while, I think its about 10 days.
This is usually fine, until you warp into an enemy fleet, or more likely, into a defense station with an FTL inhibitor. Warping into the capital system and getting absolutely pounded by the enemy fleet + defense station for 10 seconds can easily lose you the war.
Hyperdrive are also the only drive that can warp out of a system without being at the edge. This is super duper useful in wars.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 16, 2016, 03:44:16 am
Wormholes give your HOOOOGE TACTICAL AND STRATEGIC ADVANTAGE, but need wormhole stations.
I am pretty sure, that battleships with full collection of auras can make corvette swarm pretty miserable, especially that one aura, which slows down hostile fleet noftl speed for 400 %( good luck getting to your firing range) Add arc lightening to L slots, and you get each 100 % accuracy 60 range shot jumping between corvettes damaging more then one of them.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 16, 2016, 03:52:16 am
Hyperlanes make you jump right over the star, so your only tactical choice may be jumping into the fortress surrounded by four fortresses, each of them with minefield.
Wormholes give your HOOOOGE TACTICAL AND STRATEGIC ADVANTAGE, but need wormhole stations.
I am pretty sure, that battleships with full collection of auras can make corvette swarm pretty miserable, especially that one aura, which slows down hostile fleet noftl speed for 400 %( good luck getting to your firing range) Add arc lightening to L slots, and you get each 100 % accuracy 60 range shot jumping between corvettes damaging more then one of them.
I think arc lightning isn't actually arcing, according to this https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/4j8a41/minmaxing_fleet_to_absurd_levels/d3694c6 unknown if bug or else.
edit: why are empire at war barred from getting an alliance? I'd really want to help my friendly neighbor and maybe prevent him from getting slaughtered but I can't because he's at war
Post by: Sartain on May 16, 2016, 05:00:33 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 16, 2016, 05:03:29 am
So apparently, if you decimate an enemy fleet but they use their emergency FTL to retreat, it doesn't count and doesn't show up in the war score tab ???It doesn't count for your fleets either IIRC
Post by: Sartain on May 16, 2016, 05:30:11 am
So apparently, if you decimate an enemy fleet but they use their emergency FTL to retreat, it doesn't count and doesn't show up in the war score tab ???It doesn't count for your fleets either IIRC
I figured as much, I guess the check for warscore modification only happens at regular end of combat. Pretty silly though :)
Edit: Ugh, I just noticed that for the last two events (anomaly and first colony) I did in fact not gain any of the research points the pop-up said I would. It'll take some more research (pun intended) but it seems like the RP gain from events might not be working. That's a pretty big thing to miss on release :D
Post by: Majestic7 on May 16, 2016, 06:49:27 am
Post by: Sartain on May 16, 2016, 06:52:40 am
RP gain works, it just works in a limited way. When you gain research points in a lump sum, they are not added instantly - so you don't get tech instantly. Instead you get the extra points at max twice the rate of your research generation in the applicable field. So if you get 200 points and your Physics income is +20, for example, you get +40 physics point per month applied to research as maximum till the 200 points are all spent. This portrays data applied by your scientists and I think it is actually a pretty good system. It portrays the need for scientific institutions; if you have a shitload of scientific data but only one professor to go through it... well, progress won't be instant.
You're right, and you're right. That is actually a very nice mechanic!
Post by: Iituem on May 16, 2016, 07:35:19 am
As with 100% tolerance, the free population aren't unhappy with slavery. But the slaves actually get a 7% boost to happiness. I've created the BDSEmpire.
Post by: TempAcc on May 16, 2016, 08:36:46 am
Assuming said government also indoctrinates its slaves :v
Anyway, made a race of Rak'Gol eske things, militaristic, spiritualistic xenophobes, but no fanatism for anything. This lets me do things such as purging xenos pops and full bombardments, while giving me enough leeway to maintain eslaved xenos pops, do AI, etc.
But goddamn am I starved for minerals. I had to fill most of my homeworld with power plants to make up for the lack energy sources within my borders at the start, but I'm also lacking in minerals, while there are two nearby not so friendly small empires, which have recently expanded a little bit and blocked the hyperlane path between a science ship and my empire, forcing it to have to go around the entire galaxy to get back to me.
Hyperlanes kinda suck now that I look at it :v, the extra travel speed doesnt make up for the lack of flexibility.
Post by: Ultimuh on May 16, 2016, 11:19:56 am
Spoiler: Maybe I should spoiler tag this.. (click to show/hide)
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 16, 2016, 11:22:48 am
Post by: Sartain on May 16, 2016, 01:04:34 pm
I've found hyperlanes only fun if everyone uses them. We did a multiplayer game where hyperlanes were forced and it worked out quite well with bottlenecks and chokepoints actually becoming strategic locations to defend. You can't just declare war on anyone, only those people you have connections to.
I love Hyperdrive FTL for the easy exploration it allows you. Jumping from anywhere in a system lets you avoid any nasty space wildlife and explore ALL THE SYSTEMS at your leisure, so long as you micro your Science Vessel a bit.
Of course, with Hyperlanes you need to keep reminding yourself that those lanes you see are only your possible avenues of travel, unless playing with enforced FTL. I tend to forget that my neighbours might very well use some other FTL tech when using Hyperlanes, which can give you a few annoying surprises.
Post by: umiman on May 16, 2016, 01:37:59 pm
tl;dr:
1. End of May = fix major bugs
2. End of June - Add stuff
Post by: Retropunch on May 16, 2016, 01:49:02 pm
Here's Paradox's latest Stellaris dev diary where they talk about the plans moving forward: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-33-the-maiden-voyage.932668/
tl;dr:
1. End of May = fix major bugs
2. End of June - Add stuff
Thanks for that - it looks good, but they really need to have a 'MASSIVE UI AND AUTOMATION IMPROVEMENT' release before anything else. It's worrying that they think people's biggest problem is a lack of mid game content, compared to the absolute tedium of having to micro everything. I'm sure it'll all come in eventually, I just wish it was a bit more prioritized.
Post by: Cthulhu on May 16, 2016, 02:03:47 pm
I'm playing the Tendrakkian confederation, fanatic xenophobe militarist lizard junta. So far pretty fun. I've been an unbelievable dick to basically everything around me. Only one distant empire have I actually had anything resembling peaceful interactions. I've had four primitives in my territory. The first I found I went ayylmao on and infiltrated them. My gene-modded agents took over and then signed an agreement with the beneficent aliens. The Haahn are industrious and strong so I enslaved them for minerals. Sci-fi stuff always makes passing references to "the slave mines of Jurg" or whatever as a place you never want to go. Now I actually have one. Better than the thimoids and photecians though...
The photecians were alt-humans with bad traits for slavery. They had also reached the space age and were in a strategic expansion spot. Their first contact with aliens was my fleet destroying their space station and then bombarding the planet. We invaded and wiped out their army, then I exterminated them and moved Tendrakkians in to occupy the planet instead.
They're gone now. Just vanished from the species list, not even a footnote like "Photecians, extinct as of XXXX.XX.XX." Kind of sad.
Then there's two other species I haven't had much interest in. They're much more primitive so there's not much to do with them and they're well within my territory so I'm just researching them.
The Thimoid Hegemony was a neighbor empire that had an unfortunate start sandwiched between bigger empires and never really got off the ground. They insulted me, so I destroyed their fleet, annexed their homeworld, and now I'm in the process of killing them off pop by pop and replacing them with robots.
I am Space Hitler.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 16, 2016, 02:04:36 pm
Post by: Xgamer4 on May 16, 2016, 02:05:20 pm
Beyond that, this sounds fantastic.
Post by: Retropunch on May 16, 2016, 02:33:40 pm
I'm curious - what is the micro that annoys you so? I only micro constructor and science ships. Sure, the sector AI sucks for now, but in single player your opponents use the same AI, so I don't care that much.
For me it's having to micro around the science ships, and that they get stuck if they hit a system they can't survey because of bad guys. It's SUCH a pain. It's also things like having to move a science ship manually over to events rather than just saying 'send next free science ship' or something.
On top of that, the interface is just clunky. There are so many screens that could be combined or merged into something else - along with a lot of useless notifications 'something has been built on your planet!'
Post by: Cthulhu on May 16, 2016, 02:36:02 pm
It's all stuff that could've easily been automated and just amounts to busy work.
Post by: TempAcc on May 16, 2016, 02:39:24 pm
It still tells you of the threat, so you can just pause, click on the threat announcement, look around for what kind of enemy it is, then either ignore it or change your orders.
Post by: Cthulhu on May 16, 2016, 02:42:47 pm
Post by: TempAcc on May 16, 2016, 02:46:54 pm
Plus, if its the kind of threat I can't ignore, I can just tell the ship to move to another system instead of having to wait till it retreats to the previous system and THEN doing it, thus avoiding several ingame days/weeks/month of cooling down before doing another jump, depending on what kind of FTL I'm using.
Post by: Cthulhu on May 16, 2016, 02:53:21 pm
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 16, 2016, 03:40:13 pm
having to babysit the new planets since sector governors won't push up capitals since they won't spend influence, so you keep juggling them to stay under the 5 planet limits (and do they build shipyard? more clicks to get that panels and hydroponic running for them)
ship not going to the upgraded/cheapest station when upgrading using the convenient upgrade button
hiring replacement for dead personnel requires copious clicks and they tend to die in groups so there's the five years you keep getting distracted
no intercept enemy stance so you need to wait for every small fleet that come peeking you after you declare war to reach a planet where you can give an attack order
majority of quests are send ship in this 6 locations, with the aggravating interface that makes hard to click on the right hotspot that brings the start research project menu (why can't we just assign scientist to them and let them boldly go?)
Post by: Wolock on May 16, 2016, 03:51:14 pm
Also, My empire is about to receive the upgraded Lightning class cruiser. A cruiser born from retro-engineering fallen empire tech. It wields 2 tachyon lances plugged on point-zero generators and armored in neutronium. The only homemade tech is the upgraded deflectors, the propulsion parts and complements of torps.
Edit :
having to babysit the new planets since sector governors won't push up capitals since they won't spend influence, so you keep juggling them to stay under the 5 planet limits (and do they build shipyard? more clicks to get that panels and hydroponic running for them)
I have a pretty hands-off approach to colonizing where I give every new colonies to a sector once they are found. And they do build admin building, at least one of my colony has build up a planetary capital by itself. Building up new colonies and especially admin buildings is costly and sectors doesn't always produced enough to deal with that especially if it's a new sector or they have a couple of new colonies and don't forget the taxes... by default they have to send 50% of their surplus to the core system. Just shower them with EC and Mats at first and they will develop accordingly and get the ball rolling.
Post by: Cthulhu on May 16, 2016, 04:01:42 pm
Post by: BFEL on May 16, 2016, 04:02:50 pm
Invincible Dragons of Carpathian Lineage, Very Strong/Sedentary/Solitary/Slow Learners of Fanatic Militarist/Spiritualist bent. Barely got first five colonies up and ALREADY hit Psionic Theory. Now I just need to get Planetary Shields and then its time to turtle the fuck out of the everywhere.
Side note: our home system is named "HERE THERE BE DRAGONS!"
Post by: Sartain on May 16, 2016, 04:39:55 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 16, 2016, 04:48:39 pm
Post by: Sartain on May 16, 2016, 04:50:06 pm
Considering that I have -15 with them despite my borders being several systems away from a similar Fallen Empire... They will be pissed. Very pissed. I wouldn't risk it myself, unless you have an embassy and maybe a couple other of relation bonuses. They require -50~75 relations before they will declare war, so... Yeah.
Working on that embassy. Problem is, there's actually TWO systems right next to them I want to settle. I should probably try not to mess this up
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 16, 2016, 04:58:00 pm
Post by: Sartain on May 16, 2016, 05:11:09 pm
I would consider two systems pushing it so... Let us know how it goes. Worse case scenario is that you lose those colonies and potentially get some delicious tech out of the deal?I'll let you know when they forcibly evacuate me, I guess.
It's actually a very fun galaxy. Elliptical, with me at the top of the galaxy. I rushed a lot of area, preventing my neighbours from expanding "up" and have now carved out a very large area of the galaxy for my multi-species empire. My neighbours seemed somewhat passive at expanding and I was wondering why that was until I explored and found that there's not one but two Militant Isolationist Fallen Empires in the galaxy at respectively the left and right end of the galaxy. Pretty much mirroring each other in fact. So the top half of the galaxy is pretty much taken by me and my protectorates and vassals, while the middle is a few regular empires and the two Fallen, leaving only the bottom of the ellipse open to expansion for the AI empires. Good times :D
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 16, 2016, 07:17:43 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Yeah, planet-states sounds good. They'll be little technobubbles of extrahumans
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Glloyd on May 16, 2016, 07:29:17 pm
Sister Miriam's falling on hard timesSpoiler (click to show/hide)
Good for her.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 16, 2016, 07:42:29 pm
And the Miroslavs. Miroslavs everywhere.
Post by: Cthulhu on May 16, 2016, 07:47:36 pm
I'm deciding what to do with the Fiiral. They were the first race I discovered and they're also fanatic xenophobes so there's been a lot of friction there. It finally led to war when they colonized a planet in the only open region of space left for me to expand in. I'm occupying it now and I enslaved the populace but they're really ornery and looking less and less worthwhile.
Post by: Neonivek on May 16, 2016, 07:52:57 pm
Post by: redwallzyl on May 16, 2016, 08:22:57 pm
also i found this highly amusing fallen empire message on the forums. they mince no words.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 16, 2016, 08:38:07 pm
Two free updates announced for the end of May and June to fix bugs and address the most glaring issues.
Quote from: May
Fixes to the Ethic Divergence and Convergence issues. Currently, Pops tend to get more and more neutral (they lose Ethics, but rarely gain new ones.)
The End of Combat Summary. This screen looks bad and also doesnt tell you what you need to know in order to revise your ship designs, etc.
Sector Management GUI: There are many issues with this, and we will try to get most of them fixed.
Diplomacy GUI issues. This includes the Diplomatic Pop-Ups when other empires contact you, but also more and better looking Notifications, and more informative tooltips on wars, etc.
AI improvements: Notably the Sector AI, but also plenty of other things. This kind of work is never "finished"...
Myriads of bug fixes and smaller GUI improvements.
Late game crises bugs. There were some nasty bugs in there, blocking certain subplots and various surprising developments.
EDIT: Remaining Performance Issues. We know about them; they might even be hotfixed before Clarke.
EDIT: Corvettes are too good.
Quote from: June (uncomfirmed)
Border Access Revision: Borders are now open to your ships by default, although empires can choose to Close their borders for another empire (lowering your relations, of course.)
Tributaries: New diplomatic status and corresponding war goals.
Joint Declarations of War: You can ask other empires to join you for a temporary alliance in a war against a specific target.
Defensive Pacts.
Harder to form and maintain proper Alliances.
More war goals: Humiliate, Open Borders, Make Tributary, etc.
Emancipation Faction. We had to cut this one at the last minute. Needs redesign.
Diplomatic Map Mode. Much requested!
Diplomatic Incidents: This is a whole class of new scripted events that causes more interaction with the other empires.
Post by: Ultimuh on May 16, 2016, 08:59:20 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 16, 2016, 09:14:23 pm
https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/4jmt0t/sectors_101_here_are_some_tips_to_make_using/
Post by: BFEL on May 17, 2016, 12:32:10 am
Harder to form and maintain proper Alliances.GURG
ITS ALREADY IMPOSSIBLE TO FORM ALLIANCES, IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE HARDER.
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 17, 2016, 12:45:15 am
Yeah I'm a bit concerned about that. The hardest part is the base -50 acceptance modifier. Maintaining an alliance is just embassy+some influence, so maybe that could be changed a bit? I like trust/favours from EU, maybe they could use that.Harder to form and maintain proper Alliances.GURG
ITS ALREADY IMPOSSIBLE TO FORM ALLIANCES, IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE HARDER.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 17, 2016, 12:57:05 am
Eep, I enlightened some natives that are very strong and adaptable, but unfortunately fanatic xenophobe militarists. Their vassal state is a bunch of fanatical purifiers. I was hoping to use them as a buffer state, but... I now have my pet hitler. I wonder if I should just integrate them. I don't think I can ever change their ideals though, since they are far from my capital.
I really wish there was a way to manipulate pre-FTL species morality with infiltration and enlightenment.
Post by: Greiger on May 17, 2016, 01:00:53 am
I was kinda thinking that meant you would be able to freely choose your ship's destinations, especially for stuff like warp drives. Not being limited to targeting stars would allow players to use those big 'oceans' of empty space between galactic arms to mostly freely travel. Only being blocked by the oddall empire that manages to find two habitable planets on the edges of the gap to link the territory or the ones specifically setting up frontier posts to block it at the cost of influence.
But I suppose that would change the game too much. Hyperdrives would have to find some way to explain hyperlanes in the middle of nowhere. And it would pretty much remove how incredibly hard it is to reach other galactic arms, which is something I currently like.
Perhaps if all players had the ability to research a 'late early game' ftl drive that could be put on any ship, was expensive and comparatively slow, but allowed arbitrary destinations. Giving players something like the equivalent of a boat in land based games. Heck bonus points if you could further research it up to upgrade it from a ftl slot to a utility slot, allowing hybrid ships that will use the race's base ftl under normal circumstances, but using the 'void drive' when necessary or in the off case where it's faster.
Double heck it could even work sorta like the liir's ftl in Sword of the stars, getting faster the farther it is from any systems. Walled in on both sides? Make a survey ship or colony ship with a void drive to jump the galactic arm and keep surveying, or just go around the galactic rim.
Post by: Neonivek on May 17, 2016, 05:35:45 am
Quote
Corvettes are too good.
Sort of game. They kind of on a parabola.
They start off good, then end up terrible, and then end up REALLY freeken good.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 17, 2016, 05:57:42 am
And I still think that splitting nations by starting weapon type is silly. Any spaceborne nation will have missiles, and any species that can build FTL-capable ships has the technology for combat lasers and mass drivers. SotS had it right, the weapon choice mainly comes into play based on the defenses your enemies have, not your racial preferences.
Post by: lastverb on May 17, 2016, 07:21:05 am
Turns out the sector ai isn't quite as brain-dead as we thought. People just didn't get it. Sectors have an internal influence system so if you're making them maintain your frontier outposts and stuff then they can never upgrade the planet capital of make the higher level upgrades.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/4jmt0t/sectors_101_here_are_some_tips_to_make_using/
I noticed that sectors DO upgrade influence costing building (at least capital from level 2(5 pop) to 3). However info on them having influence on their own is most likely false, since there is a flag for sectors to ignore influence costs in files.
Did anyone managed to find a way to mod out a hard penalty to diplomatic options for difficulty (-25/-50)? The only difficulty related thing i found is that AI gets +50/100% bonus to all resources (including research) and it doesn't affect players vassals. You are actually gimping AI capabilities by making them your vassal (this part is only in comment, so if it's working, it's hardcoded).
Post by: TempAcc on May 17, 2016, 07:39:14 am
Also, thus far, forming alliances hasn't been terribly difficult for me. It usualy just takes another empire with non completely contrary ethics, a shared rival and an embassy.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 17, 2016, 07:49:50 am
Post by: Mookzen on May 17, 2016, 07:55:56 am
Post by: TempAcc on May 17, 2016, 08:09:55 am
AFAIK, bases only appear on the map and become functional when they're fully built, so I'm not sure what happened there.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 17, 2016, 08:16:43 am
Then again, if we're talking about military bases here, with the various modules and FTL inhibitor and what not, then I have no idea what happened. I've never caught the enemy in the process of building them, so I'm not sure what happened there.
Post by: TempAcc on May 17, 2016, 08:23:02 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 17, 2016, 08:33:53 am
SotS species have racial weapon preferences, they are just hidden in the tech tree so that certain species have a greater percentile chance to get certain technology. Unlike in Stellaris, these preferences are hard-coded as well. In Stellaris, at least our ethos choices change the tech chances.Oh, they do of course, but not quite to that extent. Everyone in SotS starts with basic energy, projectile, and missile weapons - the additional random technologies merely nudge you towards particular paths. There is no race that can't outfit a cruiser with a mix of lasers, gauss guns, and missiles from the get-go, and straight-up upgrades of basic varieties are nigh guaranteed to everyone as well. You basically choose what weapons to equip based on a mix of personal preference and random chance (I really like sniper cannons, for instance, so I'll equip them if I get them even if I'm effing Liir), and only change in reaction to what weapons and defenses your enemies start fielding. I think I'd rather have liked if weapon selection in Stellaris was a bit more like that.
Then again, SotS goes into far more detail in its combat mechanics, so perhaps that level of differentiation is just not feasible in Stellaris's model.
Post by: lastverb on May 17, 2016, 10:53:43 am
bump: Did anyone managed to find a way to mod out a hard penalty to diplomatic options for difficulty (-25/-50)? Thats additional 250-500 opinion needed. Making any diplomacy options on 'impossible' trully impossible.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 17, 2016, 11:13:01 am
Quite possibly it is just matter of couple dlcs here and thereSotS species have racial weapon preferences, they are just hidden in the tech tree so that certain species have a greater percentile chance to get certain technology. Unlike in Stellaris, these preferences are hard-coded as well. In Stellaris, at least our ethos choices change the tech chances.Oh, they do of course, but not quite to that extent. Everyone in SotS starts with basic energy, projectile, and missile weapons - the additional random technologies merely nudge you towards particular paths. There is no race that can't outfit a cruiser with a mix of lasers, gauss guns, and missiles from the get-go, and straight-up upgrades of basic varieties are nigh guaranteed to everyone as well. You basically choose what weapons to equip based on a mix of personal preference and random chance (I really like sniper cannons, for instance, so I'll equip them if I get them even if I'm effing Liir), and only change in reaction to what weapons and defenses your enemies start fielding. I think I'd rather have liked if weapon selection in Stellaris was a bit more like that.
Then again, SotS goes into far more detail in its combat mechanics, so perhaps that level of differentiation is just not feasible in Stellaris's model.
Post by: Sirus on May 17, 2016, 11:36:35 am
Yes, spaceports appear with 0 hp as soon as you order construction. Fun fact: sector AI builds spaceport on sieged worlds infinite number of times (as long as it has minerals). Of course you are the one getting "spaceport under attack" message.Hold on, what? My impression so far is that I'm the one who needs to build the spaceports and that I'm the one responsible for upgrading them. None of my sectors have been doing it on their own.
bump: Did anyone managed to find a way to mod out a hard penalty to diplomatic options for difficulty (-25/-50)? Thats additional 250-500 opinion needed. Making any diplomacy options on 'impossible' trully impossible.
On a semi-related question, just how is one supposed to build up a large surplus of minerals? It's easy to build up EC since planetary power generators produce obscene amounts of it and almost nothing uses it except as upkeep (Paradox may want to look at Eternal Space for ideas - some additional abilities that cost EC to use could be cool). Mineral mining, on the other hand, just seems to constantly lag behind. Even when your mineral production is much higher per month than your EC, you need minerals for everything.
Want to build mining stations? You need minerals. Need more EC to build more mining stations? You need minerals. You need to fight some space amoebas to gain access to a new system which hopefully has more resources? You need minerals. And then once the amoebas are gone you need to either colonize a planet or build an outpost station, either way, you need minerals.
I'm probably playing this all wrong, but for me it's a constant struggle to put just enough minerals together to keep moving forward, at least if you want to stay in the tech race or not run into an EC deficit. I have a fairly good-sized empire, with dominion over a fairly large swath of space and 7 planets (all but one of which are within sectors), yet my mineral production is somewhere in the 50s. I just lost most of my fleet against a much smaller empire (that somehow is more advanced than me despite having just one planet and a presence in only 4 systems, none of which have much in the way of research bonuses), and now I can't possibly rebuild it before those damn space slugs manage to wreck my infrastructure and my vassal.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 17, 2016, 11:40:19 am
Post by: Knave on May 17, 2016, 12:24:39 pm
Yes, spaceports appear with 0 hp as soon as you order construction. Fun fact: sector AI builds spaceport on sieged worlds infinite number of times (as long as it has minerals). Of course you are the one getting "spaceport under attack" message.Hold on, what? My impression so far is that I'm the one who needs to build the spaceports and that I'm the one responsible for upgrading them. None of my sectors have been doing it on their own.
bump: Did anyone managed to find a way to mod out a hard penalty to diplomatic options for difficulty (-25/-50)? Thats additional 250-500 opinion needed. Making any diplomacy options on 'impossible' trully impossible.
On a semi-related question, just how is one supposed to build up a large surplus of minerals? It's easy to build up EC since planetary power generators produce obscene amounts of it and almost nothing uses it except as upkeep (Paradox may want to look at Eternal Space for ideas - some additional abilities that cost EC to use could be cool). Mineral mining, on the other hand, just seems to constantly lag behind. Even when your mineral production is much higher per month than your EC, you need minerals for everything.
Want to build mining stations? You need minerals. Need more EC to build more mining stations? You need minerals. You need to fight some space amoebas to gain access to a new system which hopefully has more resources? You need minerals. And then once the amoebas are gone you need to either colonize a planet or build an outpost station, either way, you need minerals.
I'm probably playing this all wrong, but for me it's a constant struggle to put just enough minerals together to keep moving forward, at least if you want to stay in the tech race or not run into an EC deficit. I have a fairly good-sized empire, with dominion over a fairly large swath of space and 7 planets (all but one of which are within sectors), yet my mineral production is somewhere in the 50s. I just lost most of my fleet against a much smaller empire (that somehow is more advanced than me despite having just one planet and a presence in only 4 systems, none of which have much in the way of research bonuses), and now I can't possibly rebuild it before those damn space slugs manage to wreck my infrastructure and my vassal.
See, in my playthrough, I'm having the exact opposite problem. Swimming in minerals, but constantly finding myself dip into negative monthly EC. Maybe it's just our galaxy's layout :)
Post by: TempAcc on May 17, 2016, 01:11:15 pm
There's also a questline involving ancient mining drones which leads you to mineral rich places across the galaxy.
Post by: Ludorum Rex on May 17, 2016, 01:26:07 pm
I'm probably playing this all wrong, but for me it's a constant struggle to put just enough minerals together to keep moving forward, at least if you want to stay in the tech race or not run into an EC deficit. I have a fairly good-sized empire, with dominion over a fairly large swath of space and 7 planets (all but one of which are within sectors), yet my mineral production is somewhere in the 50s. I just lost most of my fleet against a much smaller empire (that somehow is more advanced than me despite having just one planet and a presence in only 4 systems, none of which have much in the way of research bonuses), and now I can't possibly rebuild it before those damn space slugs manage to wreck my infrastructure and my vassal.
The cost of research scales with the size of your empire, so you don't need to expand to keep up, and aggressively expanding can actually cause you to lag behind in tech. (which might explain how the small empire is ahead of you in tech). I agree that minerals are very often the limiting factor to expansion - but energy credits can easily become an issue as well, as they drain fast during war. You can create a very strong power base from just a few good systems. You definitely want to be careful not to overextend with a lot of crappy colonies if you don't have the fleet to defend them.
Post by: dennislp3 on May 17, 2016, 01:40:36 pm
Using this method I have found that I am able to keep up with even races that are heavily specialized in research and my resources dont seem to run out ever unless I go on a massive spending spree of some sort. This also allows you to expand rapidly without the population penalties becoming too large as long as you make enough specialized research worlds.
Post by: Culise on May 17, 2016, 01:49:08 pm
bump: Did anyone managed to find a way to mod out a hard penalty to diplomatic options for difficulty (-25/-50)? Thats additional 250-500 opinion needed. Making any diplomacy options on 'impossible' trully impossible.You're looking for commons\defines\00_defines.lua, I believe;
Code: [Select]
ALLIANCE_ACCEPTANCE_HARD_DIFFICULTY = -25,
ALLIANCE_ACCEPTANCE_INSANE_DIFFICULTY = -50,
...
VASSALIZATION_ACCEPTANCE_HARD_DIFFICULTY = -50,
VASSALIZATION_ACCEPTANCE_INSANE_DIFFICULTY = -100,Switching those with zeros (either directly in the raws or by creating your own custom mod to avoid it being overwritten with every patch Paradox releases) may do the trick.EDIT:
Also, if you're curious about other difficulty options, they're located in common\static_modifiers\00_static_modifiers.txt. These are mostly bonuses to resource production and total navy caps, though.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 17, 2016, 01:54:58 pm
I'm probably playing this all wrong, but for me it's a constant struggle to put just enough minerals together to keep moving forward, at least if you want to stay in the tech race or not run into an EC deficit. I have a fairly good-sized empire, with dominion over a fairly large swath of space and 7 planets (all but one of which are within sectors), yet my mineral production is somewhere in the 50s. I just lost most of my fleet against a much smaller empire (that somehow is more advanced than me despite having just one planet and a presence in only 4 systems, none of which have much in the way of research bonuses), and now I can't possibly rebuild it before those damn space slugs manage to wreck my infrastructure and my vassal.
The cost of research scales with the size of your empire, so you don't need to expand to keep up, and aggressively expanding can actually cause you to lag behind in tech. (which might explain how the small empire is ahead of you in tech).
No, you still have to expand. Base tech prices go up no matter what, and you can't just rely on upgrading existing buildings. It's better to say you have to expand efficiently. But research stations in systems make this easy.
Ironically there's a weird incentive where star systems with multiple habitable planets don't matter. It might be easier to defend 2 planets in 1 star system instead of 2, but you lose out on expanding your borders to encompass more possible research stations. All other things being equal (like planet size), you get more production and research out of colonizing two star systems that are far apart than 2 planets in the same system. Besides military expediency, there is no benefit to having two habitable words in the same system. This is contrary to what you'd expect and contrary to every other space strategy game I can think of.
Post by: lastverb on May 17, 2016, 02:07:21 pm
Hold on, what? My impression so far is that I'm the one who needs to build the spaceports and that I'm the one responsible for upgrading them. None of my sectors have been doing it on their own.
I haven't seen them build one in a place there wasn't a spaceport before, but:
1) I had a game where i was swimming in energy/minerals, reaching cap often
2) I made my sectors swimming in minerals (you can give minerals/energy to sectors) I always use 75% tax and give them resources manually
3) Sector AI have no problem with upgrading player built spaceports, however it only adds levels, not modules
4) I had enemy fleet move far into my backyard by wormholes and destroyed my spaceport in sector
5) Sector AI started rebuilding spaceport as soon as it was destroyed with enemy fleet still in orbit, SO MANY TIMES
Post by: TempAcc on May 17, 2016, 02:07:45 pm
Post by: Sirus on May 17, 2016, 02:11:18 pm
What about when sectors get involved? Having two worlds in a single system wouldn't matter much to a sector, right? It might even make things better because you'd have two planet's worth of resources to exploit without ramming against the planet limit.I'm probably playing this all wrong, but for me it's a constant struggle to put just enough minerals together to keep moving forward, at least if you want to stay in the tech race or not run into an EC deficit. I have a fairly good-sized empire, with dominion over a fairly large swath of space and 7 planets (all but one of which are within sectors), yet my mineral production is somewhere in the 50s. I just lost most of my fleet against a much smaller empire (that somehow is more advanced than me despite having just one planet and a presence in only 4 systems, none of which have much in the way of research bonuses), and now I can't possibly rebuild it before those damn space slugs manage to wreck my infrastructure and my vassal.
The cost of research scales with the size of your empire, so you don't need to expand to keep up, and aggressively expanding can actually cause you to lag behind in tech. (which might explain how the small empire is ahead of you in tech).
No, you still have to expand. Base tech prices go up no matter what, and you can't just rely on upgrading existing buildings. It's better to say you have to expand efficiently. But research stations in systems make this easy.
Ironically there's a weird incentive where star systems with multiple habitable planets don't matter. It might be easier to defend 2 planets in 1 star system instead of 2, but you lose out on expanding your borders to encompass more possible research stations. All other things being equal (like planet size), you get more production and research out of colonizing two star systems that are far apart than 2 planets in the same system. Besides military expediency, there is no benefit to having two habitable words in the same system. This is contrary to what you'd expect and contrary to every other space strategy game I can think of.
On another note, is there any way to transfer food between planets? I can't see a world wholly dedicated to research or mineral production being very efficient if none of the pops can eat.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 17, 2016, 02:16:30 pm
Well, there is the benefit of not having to spend extra influence (and losing monthly influence gain too, AFAIK), unless said two systems happen to be already inside your territory. Frontier outposts cost a hefty bit of influence to build and 1 influence per month to maintain, so having two habitable colonies inside the same system also saves a fair bit of influence, which is the hardest non special resource to get.
Wait... I'm getting the impression you think you have to build a Frontier Outpost in a system before you colonize it? You don't. You can colonize any system; you don't need a Frontier Outpost first. There's no Influence difference between Colony A and B both being in same system or not.
Also I think Influence varies widely between governments and ethos types. I've actually had to burn Influence because I had too much (just spent it on leader roulette, but it's better than capping out). For example as a Theocratic Republic, if I can consistently achieve the mandate (not difficult), that's an extra ~2/month. Then factor in rivals and not being in an alliance, and the early/mid techs that give +1/month. But if you're in a 40-50 year government and in an alliance, you will have a much harder time finding influence, yes. So yes, I would only really use Frontier Outposts to secure strategic resources or exceptionally good systems.
Post by: umiman on May 17, 2016, 02:17:59 pm
It depends on the quality of research points available to you.I'm probably playing this all wrong, but for me it's a constant struggle to put just enough minerals together to keep moving forward, at least if you want to stay in the tech race or not run into an EC deficit. I have a fairly good-sized empire, with dominion over a fairly large swath of space and 7 planets (all but one of which are within sectors), yet my mineral production is somewhere in the 50s. I just lost most of my fleet against a much smaller empire (that somehow is more advanced than me despite having just one planet and a presence in only 4 systems, none of which have much in the way of research bonuses), and now I can't possibly rebuild it before those damn space slugs manage to wreck my infrastructure and my vassal.
The cost of research scales with the size of your empire, so you don't need to expand to keep up, and aggressively expanding can actually cause you to lag behind in tech. (which might explain how the small empire is ahead of you in tech).
No, you still have to expand. Base tech prices go up no matter what, and you can't just rely on upgrading existing buildings. It's better to say you have to expand efficiently. But research stations in systems make this easy.
Ironically there's a weird incentive where star systems with multiple habitable planets don't matter. It might be easier to defend 2 planets in 1 star system instead of 2, but you lose out on expanding your borders to encompass more possible research stations. All other things being equal (like planet size), you get more production and research out of colonizing two star systems that are far apart than 2 planets in the same system. Besides military expediency, there is no benefit to having two habitable words in the same system. This is contrary to what you'd expect and contrary to every other space strategy game I can think of.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
tl;dr: It's basically guaranteed that if you expand too big you'll be lagging behind in tech.
Post by: Cyroth on May 17, 2016, 02:21:49 pm
On another note, is there any way to transfer food between planets? I can't see a world wholly dedicated to research or mineral production being very efficient if none of the pops can eat.
I think planets inside the same system share food, but there is no way to transport food from one system to another.
I once captured a Ringworld and one of its arcs had a bazillion farms on it. None of the other arcs had even a single farm on them, yet none of them were starving.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 17, 2016, 02:24:10 pm
Laughed out loud at that Miriam thing...I also like the image of her going up to the overlord asking for help for her drug addiction and the overlord is worse than a DF overlord, cheering her for her great success at learning new things
And the Miroslavs. Miroslavs everywhere.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 17, 2016, 02:25:30 pm
What about when sectors get involved? Having two worlds in a single system wouldn't matter much to a sector, right? It might even make things better because you'd have two planet's worth of resources to exploit without ramming against the planet limit.
With sectors, you get more flexibility from more systems. If both colonies are in the same star system, you can't chose to put Colony A in the sector but not Colony B. They're stuck together, in or out. I see that as bad. On the other hand, maybe you'd run into a situation with 2 different systems where you want them both in the same sector, but they're not adjacent (and somehow can't be linked together). In that case, it might be slightly less efficient; you might have to have a marginally worse governor (or no governor) for the other planet/sector.
Quote
On another note, is there any way to transfer food between planets? I can't see a world wholly dedicated to research or mineral production being very efficient if none of the pops can eat.
No way to transfer food. But it's not too hard to feed the whole planet. Use the adjacency bonuses from the planet's capital (research can't use them anyway), and Orbital Hydroponic Farms.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 17, 2016, 02:41:48 pm
The formula for tech prices is:
Base cost x (1 + 0.02(Totals pops in empire - 10)) = Cost
Or basically if you have 200 pop, your tech costs about 4x more than what it would have been if you had 10. Another way to think about it is each pop increases tech cost by 2%.
But that's not all. You also get flat tech points from things like anomalies and debris. So in the early game when you get shittonnes of those, you're better off not having way more population as the tech goes further.
Essentially, for every planet you're planning on colonizing, you need to calculate if you can outresearch the total amount of pop in the planet when it's fully maxed out. So if you want to colonize a size 8 planet, you must see if you can get an additional 16% research in all areas, if not you're losing out. Additionally, you must also account for whether you're gaining or losing out in the duration that the planet itself is growing, as you probably aren't devoting the pop to tech when the pop is just starting out.
All true, but as soon as you colonize a new planet you can build more research stations in that system. On the other hand, the pops take years to grow. Obviously you have to build research labs on the planets, too. But early in the game, gaining 1 pop from building a new colony will immediately result in a tech increase, because of the ability to build new research stations in space.
Quote
This is pretty easy to justify in the early game when you barely have pop and an additional 16% means like... 1 research point. Once you get large enough that your research points in bio is 100 for example... then an additional 16% means an additional 16 research in bio just to break even which can be tricky if the planet you're colonizing is only a size 8. And that's JUST bio. You also need 16 in physics and 16 in engineering as well.
True, but it's much easier than you making it sound. 16 research is after bonuses. Scientist characters alone give you 2-10%, plus whatever their specialty is. There's a ton of +10%s, like the Observatory upgrade in spaceports, the +10% physics trait depending on your approach to crystalline entities, racial traits, mid-game buildings that give empire-wide +research percentages, policies, governors that give +10% reseach output, +10/20% from high happiness, government types, etc. Ultimately you probably only need 1-2 labs per category to hit the break-even point. Even on an 8-size, you only need 1 farm, 1 capital, and 1 misc building (Monument to Purity, Frontier Clinic, w/e). The rest can be labs.
Post by: TempAcc on May 17, 2016, 02:47:24 pm
Well, there is the benefit of not having to spend extra influence (and losing monthly influence gain too, AFAIK), unless said two systems happen to be already inside your territory. Frontier outposts cost a hefty bit of influence to build and 1 influence per month to maintain, so having two habitable colonies inside the same system also saves a fair bit of influence, which is the hardest non special resource to get.
Wait... I'm getting the impression you think you have to build a Frontier Outpost in a system before you colonize it? You don't. You can colonize any system; you don't need a Frontier Outpost first. There's no Influence difference between Colony A and B both being in same system or not.
Also I think Influence varies widely between governments and ethos types. I've actually had to burn Influence because I had too much (just spent it on leader roulette, but it's better than capping out). For example as a Theocratic Republic, if I can consistently achieve the mandate (not difficult), that's an extra ~2/month. Then factor in rivals and not being in an alliance, and the early/mid techs that give +1/month. But if you're in a 40-50 year government and in an alliance, you will have a much harder time finding influence, yes. So yes, I would only really use Frontier Outposts to secure strategic resources or exceptionally good systems.
:v well suddenly a fair bit of things make sense. I used to think you needed to already own the sector to colonize something on it.
Post by: Wolock on May 17, 2016, 03:38:56 pm
Spoiler: The Galaxy (click to show/hide)
Alliance are starting to form and the next wars will determined the political landscape of the galaxy. My own alliance now includes the Cithin and we control the lower parts of the galaxy. on the upper parts, the three red empires has united their forces and attacked the neutral green nation then the Pouz Jok took the opportunity to attack them. On the right the small pink nation is allied with the purple one. There's only four netral nations left. The green one being attacked, the Bos'Pachtux and their vassal still hating us, the Jaajizan the uppermost blue nation are our best shot for a new ally and the Pouz Jok on the left being as friendly as a fanatical purifier can be while having the most powerful fleet in the galaxy. I would hit them now but my fleets are having a major overhaul at the moment and it takes lots of time.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 17, 2016, 03:46:57 pm
Also is research agreement trading bugged? I can never get the AI to start a trading agreement with me, every time I succeed the trade results in them giving me nothing but me still giving me my end of the trading deal.
Spoiler: Also finally got down to populating my mineral word with slaves (click to show/hide)
On a sidenote, I think it is rather silly that starvation does not effect the efficiency of your workers, or even cause them to die of starvation. To quote the mouse from McGee's Alice, a good worker is a live worker, a dead worker is a bad worker!
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 17, 2016, 03:58:01 pm
That 16% multiplier is multiplied by the base cost tho, not by your research points. What causes the base cost to go up isn't the size of your empire, its the level of tech you're researching. That 16% applies equally to a 10 planet empire as to a 100 planet empire.It depends on the quality of research points available to you.I'm probably playing this all wrong, but for me it's a constant struggle to put just enough minerals together to keep moving forward, at least if you want to stay in the tech race or not run into an EC deficit. I have a fairly good-sized empire, with dominion over a fairly large swath of space and 7 planets (all but one of which are within sectors), yet my mineral production is somewhere in the 50s. I just lost most of my fleet against a much smaller empire (that somehow is more advanced than me despite having just one planet and a presence in only 4 systems, none of which have much in the way of research bonuses), and now I can't possibly rebuild it before those damn space slugs manage to wreck my infrastructure and my vassal.
The cost of research scales with the size of your empire, so you don't need to expand to keep up, and aggressively expanding can actually cause you to lag behind in tech. (which might explain how the small empire is ahead of you in tech).
No, you still have to expand. Base tech prices go up no matter what, and you can't just rely on upgrading existing buildings. It's better to say you have to expand efficiently. But research stations in systems make this easy.
Ironically there's a weird incentive where star systems with multiple habitable planets don't matter. It might be easier to defend 2 planets in 1 star system instead of 2, but you lose out on expanding your borders to encompass more possible research stations. All other things being equal (like planet size), you get more production and research out of colonizing two star systems that are far apart than 2 planets in the same system. Besides military expediency, there is no benefit to having two habitable words in the same system. This is contrary to what you'd expect and contrary to every other space strategy game I can think of.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
tl;dr: It's basically guaranteed that if you expand too big you'll be lagging behind in tech.
Eventually all tech in Stellaris gets ungodly expensive because all that will be left is the infinite techs, and in that situation a small empire always beats a larger one. But for other techs its more ambiguous. A lategame, non-scaling tech, like say guass cannons (3880 base cost), that 2% per pop represents a 77.6 increase in research cost. A pop with a lab will effectively produce about ~1.5 research points in each category (depending on bonuses/lab upgrades) and add 77.6 research cost. That means if every blank tile has lab and every specialized tile gets its particular bonus, I would very very vaguely estimate that new pops would stop increasing the cost of guass cannons when the research is already taking 100 months. That's... really bad, yeah. And it gets worse because unmanaged sectors are likely not smart enough to devote the empty tiles to basic labs (which is clearly their most optimal use IMO).
But for a more reasonable tech like destroyers (900 base cost), each additional pop will add a mere 18 to the research cost. Going with the original rough estimate that means that if you add a ridiculous number of pops the cost will eventually stabilize at a very doable 2 years. So I would still argue for unchecked expansion because most of the lategame stuff is luxury compared to the cheaper early game stuff and because you'll get an efficiency boost in other areas from being able to dedicate your minerals and EC to basic buildings rather than upgrades. Its possible in the long term that giant empires become decadent in the long term and lose their edge, but its hard for me to imagine not dominating the galaxy by that point especially since each system you gain is a system your rivals can't benefit from.
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 17, 2016, 03:58:54 pm
Anything already in the trade window when you open it is not 'really' there. Always clear the trade window before making a trade, it's a bug.
Also is research agreement trading bugged? I can never get the AI to start a trading agreement with me, every time I succeed the trade results in them giving me nothing but me still giving me my end of the trading deal.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 17, 2016, 04:01:45 pm
Also is research agreement trading bugged? I can never get the AI to start a trading agreement with me, every time I succeed the trade results in them giving me nothing but me still giving me my end of the trading deal.
I think you're describing this bug: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/4d15-trade-deal-screen-bugs-on-close-reopen.928506/
Whenever you open the trade screen, you need to clear out the old terms that might still be sitting in the trade screen, and re-write the deal from scratch.
Post by: Neonivek on May 17, 2016, 04:03:53 pm
Mostly because once your empire is large enough it is nearly impossible to find anything.
Post by: Sartain on May 17, 2016, 04:12:07 pm
Yes, spaceports appear with 0 hp as soon as you order construction. Fun fact: sector AI builds spaceport on sieged worlds infinite number of times (as long as it has minerals). Of course you are the one getting "spaceport under attack" message.Hold on, what? My impression so far is that I'm the one who needs to build the spaceports and that I'm the one responsible for upgrading them. None of my sectors have been doing it on their own.
bump: Did anyone managed to find a way to mod out a hard penalty to diplomatic options for difficulty (-25/-50)? Thats additional 250-500 opinion needed. Making any diplomacy options on 'impossible' trully impossible.
On a semi-related question, just how is one supposed to build up a large surplus of minerals? It's easy to build up EC since planetary power generators produce obscene amounts of it and almost nothing uses it except as upkeep (Paradox may want to look at Eternal Space for ideas - some additional abilities that cost EC to use could be cool). Mineral mining, on the other hand, just seems to constantly lag behind. Even when your mineral production is much higher per month than your EC, you need minerals for everything.
Want to build mining stations? You need minerals. Need more EC to build more mining stations? You need minerals. You need to fight some space amoebas to gain access to a new system which hopefully has more resources? You need minerals. And then once the amoebas are gone you need to either colonize a planet or build an outpost station, either way, you need minerals.
I'm probably playing this all wrong, but for me it's a constant struggle to put just enough minerals together to keep moving forward, at least if you want to stay in the tech race or not run into an EC deficit. I have a fairly good-sized empire, with dominion over a fairly large swath of space and 7 planets (all but one of which are within sectors), yet my mineral production is somewhere in the 50s. I just lost most of my fleet against a much smaller empire (that somehow is more advanced than me despite having just one planet and a presence in only 4 systems, none of which have much in the way of research bonuses), and now I can't possibly rebuild it before those damn space slugs manage to wreck my infrastructure and my vassal.
Funny, I always have problems making enough energy and will usually be swimming in minerals.
Post by: Wolock on May 17, 2016, 05:02:39 pm
Post by: Sirus on May 17, 2016, 07:15:14 pm
In my current game I found some sort of "mystic" anomaly fairly early on. It was level 4, with a 30% base failure rate. So I acquire a scientist with the Careful trait (-10% failure chance) and put her to work until she's level 5, for a final failure rate of 12%. I saved before I began working on it, and...
I just keep failing. Load, fail, load, fail. I encountered this same sort of issue before, when I tried to savescum an event that had a 50% chance of success (to no avail).
I also just noticed that Steam achievements aren't triggering for some reason. That's pretty minor though.
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 17, 2016, 07:54:38 pm
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 17, 2016, 07:56:17 pm
I haven't seen that behavior with anomalies myself, but possibly it has to do with seed generation being static (I do not know if this is true, but it would explain endless failures like you are describing) like in older civ games?
Post by: umiman on May 17, 2016, 07:57:05 pm
I just keep failing. Load, fail, load, fail. I encountered this same sort of issue before, when I tried to savescum an event that had a 50% chance of success (to no avail).It's probably because the game is using the same seed so the result will be the same no matter how often you reload. XCOM does the same thing unless you ask it not to so you can savescum.
Post by: Sirus on May 17, 2016, 08:45:05 pm
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 17, 2016, 08:55:53 pm
Post by: Sirus on May 17, 2016, 08:59:59 pm
Problem is that I need to build up a fleet to clear out nearby systems before I can send her out for more surveying. I'm kinda trapped in a corner.
Post by: umiman on May 17, 2016, 09:46:11 pm
So...what do I do, then? Take the scientist elsewhere and go bumming around for a while before starting work on the anomaly? Or is it doomed to fail no matter what at this point?Just let it fail. =| It's not such a big deal.
You're gonna fail some anomalies anyway and really they don't do THAT much. Unless you're only planning to ever play this once, you'll probably run into this anomaly again in the future. There really aren't so many that you'll never see this again.
Post by: Sirus on May 17, 2016, 09:51:52 pm
Might as well. I decided to let the scientist in question go work on a different event, one requiring a 5-star scientist.So...what do I do, then? Take the scientist elsewhere and go bumming around for a while before starting work on the anomaly? Or is it doomed to fail no matter what at this point?Just let it fail. =| It's not such a big deal.
You're gonna fail some anomalies anyway and really they don't do THAT much. Unless you're only planning to ever play this once, you'll probably run into this anomaly again in the future. There really aren't so many that you'll never see this again.
95% of the way through the project, an election was held and that same scientist became the President, leaving the science vessel stuck in place. And since she's a substance abuser in her late 50s, she's unlikely to survive long enough to get back to work.
I hate you so much, Stellaris.
/me plays more Stellaris
Fun fact: if a construction ship abandons its task partway through (a threat appearing in the system, ferex), the partially-constructed station instantly disappears and all minerals spent on that project are lost. So that's nice.
Post by: Man of Paper on May 17, 2016, 10:01:12 pm
Post by: Sirus on May 17, 2016, 10:13:48 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on May 17, 2016, 10:47:13 pm
Spoiler: Nabbed this from an early anomaly (click to show/hide)
Oh, and I'm playing a human empire... and I just stumbled across Sol, with a primitive race of late-medieval humans on the third rock from the sun. Star Trek races is a go. :V
Except that now the aggressively hegemonic squid people on my south-east border swallowed up my avian neighbors and are on the war path towards my homeworld. Worse yet, they're the most evil kind of space 4X AI: FAC spammers. Well, corvettes, but same diff. Nothing like dealing with a horde of tiny flying guns when the combat interface isn't complex enough to let me kite them and there aren't any AoE weapons. Also for some reason small torpedoes and medium railguns at T1 are longer ranged than medium missiles at T2.
Post by: Sirus on May 17, 2016, 11:12:10 pm
And yeah, missiles seem to have absurdly short range despite the description. I'm getting out-ranged by friggin railguns more or less constantly, which I believe are supposed to have the shortest ranges.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 17, 2016, 11:34:19 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 17, 2016, 11:47:40 pm
Post by: Sirus on May 17, 2016, 11:59:09 pm
During my explorations, I encounter just two anomalies. Both have very high chances of failure and so far I have indeed failed on the one I tried. I also discover literal chains of systems which are loaded with enemy forces.
Fast forward some time, I have just settled my first colony and I have been slowly expanding my resource base (very few systems in my range and most of them aren't all that good) when pirates spawn in a system that I had just sent a constructor towards.
And now my science ship with 4-star scientist has just been destroyed by an anomaly. Like every other anomaly I've found, it's one with a base 30% chance of failure.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 18, 2016, 12:42:34 am
Check the range on them Autocannons are nice, but they have such piddly short range I'm not certain if they're worth it. Torpedos tend to be my goto weapon for early-mid game, but only if the enemy doesn't have PD. They have excellent range and ignore shields, which is very helpful in picking off a couple enemies before they get the chance to fire back.
They're barely shorter ranged than my missiles, and I'm mostly fighting defensively with warp-interdiction platforms.
Post by: PTTG?? on May 18, 2016, 12:45:25 am
You can definitely see the holes where they are going to put the DLC...
I could honestly go either way with Paradox's DLC approach, but that's neither here nor there. The modability is nice. I'm looking forward to the Star Wars, Star Trek, Babalon 5, Dr. Who, and Battlestar Galactica mods. And certainly the mod that ties them all together.
It seems to me that the time scale is really small. I put a game on fast-forward last night and it reached the tech ceiling in only a couple hundred years. I suspect that the top of the tech tree is going to be a "star gods" expansion. That's pretty trivial, though; the only inexcusable flaw with the game as it stands is probably the lack of a "planets" screen to show all colonized words at a glance.
Speaking of colonies, it bugs me that you can't colonize Mars, but you can build "frontier outposts" on stars, but those outposts require tons of influence, but building colonies requires none. Get into two alliances and play an edict, and boom, no more expansion in the early game unless you happen to find an absolutely perfect planet right next door.
Going back to the tech tree, this game is crying out for CK2-style regional tech levels! It'd be awesome to forbid the colonies from getting hyperdrive technology so they can't rebel, and it would stretch out the tech game if empires could rise and fall on the technology tree.
Post by: Shooer on May 18, 2016, 12:50:32 am
You can be like me and stick with a weapon type for most of a game, or switch as you get/find/are given better. Which I've done in one game, went from rails to missiles to energy in the late game
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Majestic7 on May 18, 2016, 01:04:58 am
Regarding Star Gods, an expansion concentrating on Fallen Empires would certainly be nice. It would be nice if the precursor storyline would explain the rise and fall of a fallen empire in the game, for example. Likewise, having more tech that never comes up randomly and you must actively find somehow to research it. Plus more ways to mess with primitives.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 18, 2016, 01:11:09 am
Or, to put it more simply, the galaxy is cyclical and they're what happens to you if you win.
Post by: Shooer on May 18, 2016, 01:24:23 am
Or, to put it more simply, the galaxy is cyclical and they're what happens to you if you win.I had game go exactly that. After controlling half the galaxy directly and all but one of the remaining independent nations all in the same alliance (7 nations, only one not in the mega alliance was on the opposite side of the galaxy from me) and all these nations having -1000 stance with me from viewing me as a threat (I was the crisis for that game I guess). I had not actually gone to war with ANYONE but fallen empires and primitives who I didn't feel like waiting for infiltrators to gain control over.
Then after years of being on top my outer sectors started to form factions of SECTOR independence. My first time experiencing factions spread across multiple worlds. Of course the whole revolt system is busted, defensive armies never improve while genetic legions are several times more powerful, also defensive armies are hard capped at how many can be on a planet while you can have several times that when attacking. Never felt that I would ever lose these areas, my fleets could stop any outside interference if a world went into revolt anyway.
But I realized that eventually, some day, I wouldn't care if one did revolt. Hell I might let it do it just to see what happens. Then they would all break away one at a time, leaving me my core area. I would secure the borders. Everyone else would realize that I'm not going to bother them as long as they don't bother me. Finally I would just sit there, watching other empires rise and fall while mine would stay the same.
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 18, 2016, 01:39:23 am
Finally I would just sit there, watching other empires rise and fall while mine would stay the same.Basically the Egyptian Old Kingdom, then.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 18, 2016, 01:40:44 am
Post by: umiman on May 18, 2016, 01:44:31 am
Perhaps we get that one day, at least they took my Sol suggestion. :P?
Post by: Majestic7 on May 18, 2016, 02:21:46 am
Perhaps we get that one day, at least they took my Sol suggestion. :P?
I wasn't entirely serious, but I made this suggestion (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/earth-humanity.884702/). I'm sure they had come up with the idea on their own anyway.
Post by: umiman on May 18, 2016, 02:37:52 am
Did you expect the sentient cockroaches?Perhaps we get that one day, at least they took my Sol suggestion. :P?
I wasn't entirely serious, but I made this suggestion (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/earth-humanity.884702/). I'm sure they had come up with the idea on their own anyway.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 18, 2016, 02:39:16 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 18, 2016, 03:05:18 am
It's annoying hen you are 50yr in and you fdon't know where you stand. is 150 science good? bad? average? is my industrial cap above or higher than average?
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 18, 2016, 03:35:39 am
Post by: Iituem on May 18, 2016, 03:59:30 am
"Stay out of our space. Our kind was around for aeons before yours developed space travel."
Crap. Fanatic Xenophobe Fallen Empire - and I'm in their space.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 18, 2016, 04:03:06 am
Post by: Sirus on May 18, 2016, 04:11:01 am
Finally pursued the bastard cult leader to his last stand, my 1k fleet of destroyers (it's early game!) ready to put paid to his 250p battleship temple. As I draw towards his ship to end this once and for all, I am suddenly hailed by a creature looking much the same as my own Chancellor.This quest appears to be bugged slightly. After beating the battleship and...what came next, the quest appears to be stuck back in the original boarding mission. I didn't get any sort of wrap-up text or reward, and trying to track the quest gives me a marker in the center of the galaxy.
"Stay out of our space. Our kind was around for aeons before yours developed space travel."
Crap. Fanatic Xenophobe Fallen Empire - and I'm in their space.
Kinda disappointing.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 18, 2016, 04:14:33 am
In my case, I had an asteroid aiming for one of my planets, after blowing it up nothing happened. It is still marked in the situation log. Oh well.
Post by: Sirus on May 18, 2016, 04:18:57 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 18, 2016, 04:42:16 am
Finally pursued the bastard cult leader to his last stand, my 1k fleet of destroyers (it's early game!) ready to put paid to his 250p battleship temple. As I draw towards his ship to end this once and for all, I am suddenly hailed by a creature looking much the same as my own Chancellor.This quest appears to be bugged slightly. After beating the battleship and...what came next, the quest appears to be stuck back in the original boarding mission. I didn't get any sort of wrap-up text or reward, and trying to track the quest gives me a marker in the center of the galaxy.
"Stay out of our space. Our kind was around for aeons before yours developed space travel."
Crap. Fanatic Xenophobe Fallen Empire - and I'm in their space.
Kinda disappointing.
it bugged even before that for me since I had an ally and the cultist were ostile to me. so I got the fleet killed message, but no advancement in quest progress.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 18, 2016, 05:23:39 am
You can go one step further:Finally I would just sit there, watching other empires rise and fall while mine would stay the same.Basically the Egyptian Old Kingdom, then.
Spoiler: bottom right (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: lastverb on May 18, 2016, 06:04:12 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I have also noticed very annoying bug in wormholes. When you order your ships they are pathing using all available wh stations, including allied ones (I think the game also checks enemy stations, that would explain late game lag on using wh way of travel). However, if they try to use friendly wh station, they just sit there indefinitely changing their status between idle and wormholing to. And I wondered why my ships are not when I ordered them to go.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 18, 2016, 06:24:02 am
If you are still experiencing it and playing up to date version, you should report it.
Post by: lastverb on May 18, 2016, 06:48:23 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 18, 2016, 10:57:58 am
One of my suggestions on the Paradox forum was that once you win, your victorious empire could later spawn as a fallen empire, implying that you are playing in distant future from your last victory. Perhaps we get that one day, at least they took my Sol suggestion. :P
is there a section for suggestion? I have a couple :P
Post by: Dutrius on May 18, 2016, 11:09:24 am
Sadly, I didn't put in the compound last names / place names that DF has. I produced a file with a list of all possible names which ended up over 30MB in size. I'd have to include that more than once, so that's right out. Only single word last names and place names for now.
Dropbox link, in case you want Dwarven names: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ono0dwcq0k7s0kq/dsp.zip?dl=0
Please let me know if the link doesn't work.
Just extract the .zip into your Stellaris mod directory, enable the mod in the launcher and start a new game.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 18, 2016, 12:33:56 pm
A pop with a lab will effectively produce about ~1.5 research points in each category (depending on bonuses/lab upgrades) and add 77.6 research cost. That means if every blank tile has lab and every specialized tile gets its particular bonus, I would very very vaguely estimate that new pops would stop increasing the cost of guass cannons when the research is already taking 100 months. That's... really bad, yeah. And it gets worse because unmanaged sectors are likely not smart enough to devote the empty tiles to basic labs (which is clearly their most optimal use IMO).
A mere 1.5 multiplier in the lategame? Basic labs?
+50% only makes sense for Spiritualists without Intelligent. It's quite easy to go much, much higher:
Intelligent: +10% (either from start or genetic engineering)
Materialist: +5% (10% if Fanatic)
Neural Network Admin: +10% (materialist government)
Happiness: +10-20%
Spaceport Observatory: +10%
Research Institute: +10%
Scientist leader stars: +2-14%
Administrative AI: +5% (this is the low level tech, not the dangerous one)
Maniacal/Genius/matching field Scientist leader: +5%/+10%
And that's not counting your local governors (+10%) and Improved Assist Research from Science Vessels (10-50%). There's probably a few I've forgotten as well. And of course there's always the possibility for those insane-o planets with built-in multipliers or weird blocker-adjacency bonuses, but I think we can assume those are no-brainers. Sector management is an issue, but I think we get around that by setting the sectors up manually before we pass them off to the AI. Or waiting for Paradox to make sector AI more reasonable.
Anyway, you can probably get 65%-95% in multipliers by the late game, but let's figure 80% for basic Materialists.
A basic lab is 1/1/1, but a level 3 lab is 4/1/1. Thus each extra tile is 2 research per category on average (4+1+1 for each category, spread across 3 labs, averages out to 2). Since the average lab tile is producing 2, that's 3.6 per lab after bonuses. However we also have to power the labs, at 2.5 Energy per lab. More expensive, but each Power Plant 4 (not Betharian) can power ~2-2.5 labs, depending on native tile bonuses and adjacency bonuses. So that'll reduce our effective output by about 33-40%. We might only expect to actually get 2.8 or 3 "per lab" when you factor in Energy maintenance.
Sure, non-synth pops have to eat (nominally 1 food per pop, but again there are bonuses to reduce food consumption) but that's only 1-2 tiles per planet. Farm 4 adjacent to a Planetary Capital is already 11 food, plus 3 from Orbital Hydroponic Farms. And that's assuming there is no bonus food on a tile. Food is basically a non-issue. But including the 1 farm, the capital, a mandatory special building or two for Happiness/Habitability, let's just say 2.5 effective research per additional pop at the end of the day.
Note that this is marginal or additional pops. Your empire already has enough minerals and fleet to defend itself; we assume you did that first. The question is whether you should colonize bland additional planet purely for increased research purposes.
Maybe I've made some errors here so I'd appreciate any corrections people can make. I didn't bother doing the Energy analysis for sticking with Basic Labs. Maybe it's better and we should be coating the universe in Level 1 labs.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 18, 2016, 02:05:29 pm
-if you play the game long enough eventually new pops will cause your research times to approach, with exponential decay, a very large research time. Fortunately, research will become less and less useful per-cost in tandem with this.
-barring some shenanigans with debris techs, the primary determining factor of victory in war is fleet numbers with research only deciding fights that were already mostly even.
-research is rubber-banded by its nature. Cheaper techs typically have a similar game impact compared to larger techs and larger techs are typically at least a little redundant. This isn't EU; if you've got 30 military researches and your enemy only has 20, you're probably MOSTLY on par assuming similar luck/meta knowledge/player skill.
-upgraded labs are the worst way to increase research. A lab IV costs 7x the minerals and 3x the energy credits compared to a basic lab. If you have literally NO other options, then they are MAYBE worth it. But until then there are far better uses of resources. Not to mention that researching a lab tech costs research points in the same field its supposed to be providing them.
In short, research matters but not so much that you need to be thinking about it that hard. The only real rule is to take advantage of all "natural" researches and build a lab for, say, every 2.5 pops. Much more important it is to be smart about WHICH researches you pick. Remember, colonizing planets makes your research worse but it makes your everything else better.
Post by: Xgamer4 on May 18, 2016, 04:05:13 pm
-upgraded labs are the worst way to increase research. A lab IV costs 7x the minerals and 3x the energy credits compared to a basic lab. If you have literally NO other options, then they are MAYBE worth it. But until then there are far better uses of resources. Not to mention that researching a lab tech costs research points in the same field its supposed to be providing them.
Is that how the math shakes out? I've always gotten the sense that upgrading a lab to specialize is near the worst use of resources (including building time), so it's good to know the math bears that out. A single-point rise just never seemed high enough. I can match that by dropping a base lab on an empty square somewhere in my entire empire, and the basic lab gives me research in every category.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 18, 2016, 04:10:03 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 18, 2016, 04:12:29 pm
Its pretty simple: I'm not assuming materialist or a particularly optimal strategy. I could go into detail but it doesn't really matter, it was a super vague estimate intentionally. The takeaway is:
-if you play the game long enough eventually new pops will cause your research times to approach, with exponential decay, a very large research time. Fortunately, research will become less and less useful per-cost in tandem with this.
-barring some shenanigans with debris techs, the primary determining factor of victory in war is fleet numbers with research only deciding fights that were already mostly even.
-research is rubber-banded by its nature. Cheaper techs typically have a similar game impact compared to larger techs and larger techs are typically at least a little redundant. This isn't EU; if you've got 30 military researches and your enemy only has 20, you're probably MOSTLY on par assuming similar luck/meta knowledge/player skill.
Uh... a 10 military tech advantage? I think you're overstating things there. Between 10 techs I can easily get:
20% larger naval capacity (2 techs, 10% each)
75% more damage (2 steps up any weapon tech tree)
better PD/triple the shield capacity (2 steps up the shield tree)
etc. While any one tech isn't a lot, I think it should be pretty obvious that 10 different techs is going to be a major advantage. Numbers are important, sure, but part of what dictates the numbers IS tech. There are a ton of early +naval capacity techs in the first place.
Quote
-upgraded labs are the worst way to increase research. A lab IV costs 7x the minerals and 3x the energy credits compared to a basic lab. If you have literally NO other options, then they are MAYBE worth it. But until then there are far better uses of resources. Not to mention that researching a lab tech costs research points in the same field its supposed to be providing them.
Wait, slow down. You've got a couple things mixed up here.
Lab IV can only be built where you have an Empire-Capital Complex (ie, your homeworld). So we're mostly not talking about lab IVs, but lab IIIs. The mineral costs are an issue, but one that we haven't addressed elsewhere. But we'll assume you have some kind of mineral budget for infrastructure, obviously. I addressed the Energy cost above (which, again, is 2.5x, not 3x, because we're not talking about Lab IVs). Also the Lab III/Lab IV techs (which are the same) are t3/cost 1 techs that only cost 2320 base. They're not expensive.
Anyway, sure, a new basic science lab (lab 0) seems vastly more mineral efficient than upgrading a lab I to a lab II. But eventually you run out of pops to employ. At that point you can hold your minerals until you have more pops, or you can spend them now to get more output out of existing pops. Mineral growth increases way faster than pops, so guess which strategy techs faster? Probably the one where you're increasing tech sooner rather than later.
You'll also eventually run out of unblocked tiles to build on. At that point you need to start adding the cost of clearing to the cost of the next basic lab. Upgrading labs tends to win here, too. A basic science lab is 60 minus discounts. The upgrade is 90 minus discounts. But typical blockers cost 100 minus discounts. It's thus generally cheaper to upgrade to Lab II than to clear the tile. Of course even when you do clear all the blockers eventually, you'll still run out of tiles, and be forced to build a colony ship for 350 minerals plus the ungodly Energy costs of new colonies. And once you're on the new planet, you're back to square 1 (literally), waiting for pops to grow, building the necessary new energy and food buildings, upgrading colony capitals, building a new spaceport, etc.
Sure, if you have an unemployed (or underemployed pop) to build a building under, a new basic lab is the best use. But you run out of those pretty quick.
Quote
In short, research matters but not so much that you need to be thinking about it that hard. The only real rule is to take advantage of all "natural" researches and build a lab for, say, every 2.5 pops. Much more important it is to be smart about WHICH researches you pick. Remember, colonizing planets makes your research worse but it makes your everything else better.
I think you're totally neglecting the role of tech bonuses, which are part of why upgrading to labs IIIs (and IVs on your capital) beats spamming basic labs everywhere. Bonuses will tend to be centralized, because of mechanics like Assist Research, leaders, etc. Even if you're not a Materialist, you can use an Intellectual governor and Assist Research to get up to 100% bonuses, easily. But only on a single planet or two. And it's not like you can make pops grow any faster as the game goes along. Your 20th new colony grows at pretty much the same rate as your 2nd new colony. You are always be able to build/upgrade faster than pops reproduce. The new basic labs will produce 1 science with low or no bonuses (you don't start at 100 happiness/100 habitability) while your homeworld will always have all the necessary bonuses available immediately.
The difference is basically going to be "build new basic labs on a young planet and get (1*1.2) per category as pops grow" or "upgrade labs on home planet for additional (2*2) per category right now."
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 18, 2016, 04:15:28 pm
A single-point rise just never seemed high enough. I can match that by dropping a base lab on an empty square somewhere in my entire empire, and the basic lab gives me research in every category.
the short version of my above post:
1. It's not a +1 in a single category, it's +1*bonuses
2. There are a finite number of empty squares, and buying new ones (colony ships+blocker costs) is expensive
Post by: Sirus on May 18, 2016, 05:23:58 pm
I have to assume it's a bug because it makes no sense whatsoever.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 18, 2016, 05:32:23 pm
As for local tech bonuses, aside from IIRC a certain unique building, there's 3: research assist, orbital bonus, and governor. However, two of those bonuses use the same resource (leader slots), and two of them can made not local easily enough. Yes, there are planet based bonuses but honestly they're only going to account for a drop in the bucket even if you focus on them. This is coming from someone who filled a max sized world with the best physics labs available, and the unique lab, and then stacked every possible research bonus on that one planet (including the space mall for happiness). I wasted so many minerals doing that and the gains felt very minor compared to what my generalized worlds were yielding for much less cost.
As for your point about the research bonus of tech, you're missing the point. The game is designed so that you quickly fill out "core" techs like your main weapons path and basic utility upgrades and then past that you have to go after sidegrades and diminishing gains. The fleet size modifiers are great, yeah, except that expanding empires tend to run way below their fleet limit and all those minerals and energy you've been dumping into upgraded labs a smart player would be buying corvettes and spaceports. Sure, you can use your research to rush down a weapons path, but most smart players will quickly get decently far down 1 weapon, 1 defense and reactors. On top of that improved weapons increase BOTH the cost and maintenance of a ship, which means that until you hit your fleet limit higher tech weapons = smaller fleet.
All of this means that, sure, a high tech empire has an advantage over a low tech empire. But between the smaller fleet and the fact that many advantages that improve tech are trade offs with things that produce minerals and fleet limit (see: having a small empire, upgrading your labs instead of your starports), it all evens out close enough that it is a secondary deciding factor to fleet size, alliances, and rock paper scissors. Sure, all things being even research will make the difference. But honestly I would say the bigger advantage of research is the ability to shift your position on the rock paper scissors.
Post by: Mini on May 18, 2016, 05:56:01 pm
...Am I the only one seeing space amoebas belonging to various primitive empires flying around? How the heck did a bronze-age civilization wrangle a giant space monster and use it to explore space?Yeah that's a bug. I've also heard of them being owned by ftl races (including players), but much less frequently for some reason.
I have to assume it's a bug because it makes no sense whatsoever.
Post by: Sirus on May 18, 2016, 06:01:31 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 18, 2016, 06:04:02 pm
Post by: BFEL on May 18, 2016, 06:15:20 pm
...Am I the only one seeing space amoebas belonging to various primitive empires flying around? How the heck did a bronze-age civilization wrangle a giant space monster and use it to explore space?THE ADVENTURES OF VOID CLOUD, KNIGHT OF THE ROUND TABLE!
I have to assume it's a bug because it makes no sense whatsoever.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 18, 2016, 06:24:39 pm
The real test, if you care, would be to keep the amoeba alive, uplift the civ, and then integrate it. If the faction really does control the amoeba you should gain control of it.
Post by: Aedel on May 18, 2016, 06:32:15 pm
I think its a display glitch because space amoebas have no valid faction? So it just displays whichever one is position 0 on the factions list or whatever.
The real test, if you care, would be to keep the amoeba alive, uplift the civ, and then integrate it. If the faction really does control the amoeba you should gain control of it.
You do. I've done it before.
Post by: Sirus on May 18, 2016, 07:28:28 pm
They eventually increase in tech levels but it takes a long, long time. Unfortunately you can't uplift them just enough to infiltrate, so you either have to hope that the RNG smiles upon you or suck it up and make them a Protectorate.I know that you can uplift species in order to make the Vassals, and from there you can eventually annex them completely (it takes a very long time). How do Protectorates work? Can I eventually integrate them into my empire?
Basically I'd like to avoid simply conquering them completely (making them angry at me) or wiping them out (making everyone ELSE angry at me).
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 18, 2016, 07:34:08 pm
Post by: flabort on May 18, 2016, 08:54:22 pm
Post by: Sirus on May 18, 2016, 09:42:54 pm
However, I want them in my empire so that they can serve as colonists for worlds that my own species cannot handle. Thus I need to go about changing their ethics. Will a couple of Re-education edicts help them see my point of view, or should I just let them sit and wait for a while until they come around?
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 18, 2016, 09:53:01 pm
If you can get orbital mind-control lasers you'll be golden.
Post by: Sirus on May 18, 2016, 09:57:19 pm
The only reason I wasn't sure whether to use them or not was because I thought that perhaps they would actually clamp down on ethic-changing. Useful for keeping your own pops in line but terrible for actually changing anything.
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 18, 2016, 10:01:12 pm
Post by: Neonivek on May 18, 2016, 10:14:33 pm
Yeah, that's not really well-explained. Negative divergence makes pops drift towards your governing ethics.
It helps that it is currently somewhat broken and will be fixed in June.
Post by: Man of Paper on May 18, 2016, 10:44:21 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on May 18, 2016, 11:10:59 pm
Honestly though I'm tempted to just mod the core planet cap up to a few hundred or something, because the automated sector governor AI is fucking retarded. Caught it doing stuff like moving population off of the planetary capital, building basic farms on every tile including stuff with +2 and +3 bonuses to other resources (even though I've got it ticked to not do that), &c. For now I'm cycling worlds through direct control so that I can build them up completely and then dump them into a sector.
Had a funny thing happen, though. Early on I found a combat AI through an event. It immediately got turned into an admiral... and then about a year later it got itself elected President. It proceeded to get reelected for something like fifty years straight, right up until I was on the brink of declaring war with the main enemy federation, at which point it promptly lost an election, presumably because it wanted more combat experience. Nope, no electioneering by the sinister alien AI going on there, no sir.
Post by: Sirus on May 18, 2016, 11:20:38 pm
The rival empire is further annoying me by building outpost stations probing towards my territory. I'm about ready to just launch another offensive and conquer them completely. Only thing holding me back is the realization that I'd then have 5 planets full of rebellious aliens to deal with rather than 2.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 18, 2016, 11:26:49 pm
Post by: Sirus on May 18, 2016, 11:33:43 pm
Post by: Shooer on May 18, 2016, 11:34:02 pm
If you didn't know when a faction revolts it just spawns a number of defensive armies equal to the factions pop on that planet. You have a planet with 12 pop about to revolt? Have 18 assault armies in orbit to reinforce the 8 you already had on the ground.
Once you can start making genetic legions you can just drop 3 to take down 8 or so defensive armies, probably more.
The real only problem you face is the loss of production on the planet with the faction, but I accept it because what conquered population wants or even can immediately start working efficiently for their new overlords.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 19, 2016, 01:01:45 am
Regarding sectors, they actually work, they just have the long aim. So a sector first always builds farms to get maximum population, then repurposes tiles. You need to click allow redevelopment and possible respect tiles, then pour minerals in for them to build stuff. Majority of my research comes from research sectors, which are the only ones I really use. No idea if defensive sectors work.
Post by: MrWiggles on May 19, 2016, 01:24:49 am
In the games I've played, there doesnt seem to ever be enough room to have defensive sectors and the other sectors. Though maybe you're suppose to be highly reflexive with sectors and reforming as the need arises. But the 25 influence cost would suggest otherwise, and shit takes forever to get built. (Which I do like, but wouldnt really let you, make a sector into a netrual zone in short order.)
Post by: Majestic7 on May 19, 2016, 01:29:00 am
Speaking of which, I wish we could design and upgrade wormhole stations. We should be able to choose between cheap, easy to build wormhole generators and huge fortresses. Maybe do both for different needs. I kind of expected wormholing to be the turtling choice with forts and whatnots, but the infrastructure seems very vulnerable to raiding.
Post by: Neonivek on May 19, 2016, 01:48:59 am
Which would be fine if they didn't have such an incredibly high energy cost.
Post by: MrWiggles on May 19, 2016, 02:08:05 am
Post by: Neonivek on May 19, 2016, 02:12:19 am
1EC, man that is a lot. And they're mostly a support structure. They aren't meant to be a stationary fleet.
They seemed more expensive to me. 3ec and 8ec for fortresses.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 19, 2016, 02:40:34 am
The way I see it, a fortress should be a moment to stupidity regarding expense, but work like the Maginot line; be an area denial system that likely won't see action ever. Smaller platforms are fast to build so they could be more of a support thing, as you could theoretically plop them in orbit of planets you are occupying, for example, to prevent easy recapture.
Now the platforms are too expensive to be worth it and the fortresses are too shitty to work as area denial.
Post by: Sirus on May 19, 2016, 02:43:43 am
Post by: Majestic7 on May 19, 2016, 02:46:33 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 19, 2016, 02:47:51 am
now if fighter had system wide range, they could pin the enemy in combat either forcing a retreat (= free damage) or forcing the fleet into a local engagement ( = time for the fleet to arrive)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
or use those spaceport expansion slots for armor/weapons
Post by: Majestic7 on May 19, 2016, 02:51:12 am
Post by: Sirus on May 19, 2016, 02:58:22 am
Another thing that would be needed is planetary defenses, like planetary missile bases or the like that take a tile. Alternatively, low orbit defense guns that damage bombarding ships and invaders. Maybe they could only be taken down with an invasion. Building fortress worlds should be possible, just not economically feasible.Totally agreed. Also, I wonder if perhaps defending forces should be able to deal some damage to assaulting troops before said troops hit the ground. Anti-air fire, let's call it. Maybe scale the anti-air damage based on how intact the fortifications are.
Combine this with low-orbit defense guns and real proper space defenses, and invasions become much more exciting all around. It'll be a race on both sides, the attacker racing to capture the world before too much damage can be dealt to either his fleet or his troops, and the defender hoping that the defenses will hold long enough to get a fleet in position.
Post by: MrWiggles on May 19, 2016, 03:07:36 am
Though honestly, I think for a space 4x game, it should just entirely ignore ground combat. It can never have enough depth to make it actually interesting without making it even more of a micro mgm sink. I would make it entirely about sieging down an entire system. And then have the game be smart enough to figure out when a system is no longer at the front lines, for it to "know" its subdued. And then give options to bomb the planet (to attack building, pop, and planet moral if present), glass the planet (just ruin it), or purge the planet (keep all the spiffy buildings). And have the option to provide it with food and energy.
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 19, 2016, 03:10:40 am
Post by: Retropunch on May 19, 2016, 03:24:14 am
Overall, they're not great and definitely need improving, but as MrWiggles said, they're mostly sort of as a support. I had a pretty nasty border war going on and we could only reach a few of each others stars - having a few kitted out defense platforms really helped mitigate my losses. If the AI had also done the same it'd be useless, but it worked well in making sure I always had the upper hand.
Post by: Sirbug on May 19, 2016, 04:12:32 am
Warscore needs tweaking. Just because I lost a spaceport on day one doesn't mean I must be forced into white peace as I blockaded enemy's only planet.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 19, 2016, 04:20:58 am
Patches haven't touched the aggro level yet, future patches will have aggro setting when starting a game. The chances are you just encountered people with different personalities than before.
Post by: Ultimuh on May 19, 2016, 04:26:34 am
(Or playing as one not specifically miliaristic.)
I am convinced RNG is working against me in this game.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 19, 2016, 05:24:05 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 19, 2016, 05:28:01 am
http://imgur.com/QRKt1sK
Post by: Majestic7 on May 19, 2016, 06:08:09 am
Post by: MrWiggles on May 19, 2016, 06:51:02 am
Don't forget the option to simply annihilate the whole thingHow much different is that from just glassing the entire planet? It is cooler though. So even if it doesnt have much mechanical difference, it is cooler.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 19, 2016, 06:55:05 am
Post by: lastverb on May 19, 2016, 07:13:12 am
Yeah, that's cluster spawning. There options hidden in the game to turn spawning random, cluster or focused on the player. You just need to edit stuff to change it. Cluster is default, meaning a few species spawn always next to each other, but the distance between these clusters can be great.
Where? I have only found you can mess with distance values (min and optimal). There is also a mod with maps with custom spawn points giving everyone same space.
On the part of AI personalities, I have started a few single player games just after release to notice that it tends to random AIs with complete opposite ethos to player ones, giving a lot of empires same ethos.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 19, 2016, 07:59:13 am
Post by: TempAcc on May 19, 2016, 08:36:55 am
Also, you should be able to set priority targets during combat or something. At the moment, the AI will often focus fire single ships in your fleet, while your own fleet likes to spread he damage across several targets, meaning you'll likely never win engagements against a fleet of similar numbers/firepower.
Post by: Xgamer4 on May 19, 2016, 10:02:04 am
Post by: Neonivek on May 19, 2016, 10:09:45 am
Battleships as silly as this sounds are meant to have support to be really effective. Being, in essence, more fragile then Corvettes.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 19, 2016, 10:59:59 am
You mostly restated what I said. If you run out of space, upgrade labs. Otherwise they suck. Its the worst way to improve research.
But my point is that you will always be out of space. Colonists just don't grow that fast. You will inevitably be upgrading labs. If you don't have better lab techs, you're losing research because you can't upgrade. If you're waiting for pops to grow, or clearing blockers, you're spending inefficiently.
Quote
As for local tech bonuses, aside from IIRC a certain unique building, there's 3: research assist, orbital bonus, and governor. However, two of those bonuses use the same resource (leader slots), and two of them can made not local easily enough. Yes, there are planet based bonuses but honestly they're only going to account for a drop in the bucket even if you focus on them. This is coming from someone who filled a max sized world with the best physics labs available, and the unique lab, and then stacked every possible research bonus on that one planet (including the space mall for happiness). I wasted so many minerals doing that and the gains felt very minor compared to what my generalized worlds were yielding for much less cost.
AFAIK there's no unique lab building for a planet alone. You're maybe thinking of the Research Institute which gives 5/5/5 tech, and +10% to your empire. There's a spaceport upgrade that gives +10% research, but of course you can and should build that everywhere you have any significant number of labs.
But anyway, calling localized bonuses a "drop in the buckets" is absurd. Assist Research is by far the largest bonus available in the game. A 5-star scientist gives +25% or +50% output (more if you have racial traits/policies for higher levels). Sure, it uses a leader slot. But there isn't a better use of a leader slot than a scientist running assist research. No other leader bonus comes close that much research output - or anything output, really. There's a Food leader, and a Slave leader for minerals+food from slaves. Not a lot of options.
Was it useful for you to stack that much research on one planet? We don't know, because you didn't say anything besides, "idk, feelsbadman." Do the numbers. What did the planet produce before you upgraded it, how long did you spend upgrading it, what did it cost, and what did it produce afterwards? What techs did you research with it and how much sooner did they become available? What would you have spent the minerals on if you hadn't done that? If the answer is "maxing out my fleet capacity" then you should have already done that anyway.
Quote
As for your point about the research bonus of tech, you're missing the point. The game is designed so that you quickly fill out "core" techs like your main weapons path and basic utility upgrades and then past that you have to go after sidegrades and diminishing gains. The fleet size modifiers are great, yeah, except that expanding empires tend to run way below their fleet limit and all those minerals and energy you've been dumping into upgraded labs a smart player would be buying corvettes and spaceports.
Nah, you're assuming the opposite of what I'm doing. The player should always fill out their fleet capacity first. You don't invest in research at all if you don't have a full fleet. The cost of maxing your fleet capacity is generally insignificant compared to investing in infrastructure. The cost of a corvette is insignificant compared to building/upgrading.
Quote
Sure, you can use your research to rush down a weapons path, but most smart players will quickly get decently far down 1 weapon, 1 defense and reactors. On top of that improved weapons increase BOTH the cost and maintenance of a ship, which means that until you hit your fleet limit higher tech weapons = smaller fleet.
Nobody is talking about "rushing" down a weapons path. The point is that tech matters. It's not just sidegrades. Sure, higher tech weapons cost more. Who cares? Higher tech also produces more money. The point is that being 10 techs behind is a real disadvantage, not an imaginary one.
Quote
All of this means that, sure, a high tech empire has an advantage over a low tech empire. But between the smaller fleet and the fact that many advantages that improve tech are trade offs with things that produce minerals and fleet limit (see: having a small empire, upgrading your labs instead of your starports), it all evens out close enough that it is a secondary deciding factor to fleet size, alliances, and rock paper scissors. Sure, all things being even research will make the difference. But honestly I would say the bigger advantage of research is the ability to shift your position on the rock paper scissors.
Again, what is with this "smaller fleet" idea? You always keep your fleet size at max. Anything else is goofy.
Post by: Sirus on May 19, 2016, 11:06:26 am
I made a species of space birbs that was supposed to be all about research and building a multi-species empire by absorbing the lesser species, either via infiltration or uplifting. To this end I gave them the Charismatic trait, and made them Fanatic Materialist Individualists. Just for funsies, I gave them hyperdrive.
So the game started, and I can see that there are 4 star systems in range of my borders. One of them is a black hole! Neat! But I go ahead and survey my home system first.
My home system contains 2 EC. That's it.
Not good. Well, let's check some of these non-black-hole systems...why does this one have NO resources?! Ugh, let's check the black hole.
Black hole system contains an amoeba (thankfully hanging out near the edge of the system) and gives 5 whole physics research! Great, but I really need EC and minerals. I jump to my home system...and immediately am confronted with an enemy alert.
Remember that amoeba? It had apparently decided to jump to my home system at about the same time I did, and appeared right on top of my science vessel. Battle was engaged before I could get the vessel away and I was forced to make an emergency jump, leaving the poor science ship with just 5% HP. The amoeba then began swimming towards my pitiful starting fleet, and only the fact that the engagement happened near my home world's space port allowed me to keep any of my ships alive. As it was, I lost 1 of them.
So I get all my ships repaired and back to work while the income ever-so-slowly trickles in. This takes long enough that eventually it is election time! And I come to realize that my Ruler is running on a Slavery mandate.
Remember, my people are Individualists. They dislike slavery. So obviously my guy gets the boot. He vanishes, never to be seen again and taking all his skill stars with him. His replacement is, of course, the scientist in the science vessel who has hardly done any science at all. She's running on a space mining mandate, which is impossible to meet without serious expansion that I cannot even afford at the moment because I have access to so few resources.
Ugh.
Post by: Man of Paper on May 19, 2016, 11:56:16 am
My past three attempts at whooping this game's ass have seen me start with a large amount of unsettled between myself and my nearest neighbors.
In regards to my latest game:
Created a hyperdrive species for a HD-only galaxy, and I happen to spawn in a system with only one connection, which leads to two more systems with colonizable planets. I feel confident in my ability to defend this amazing position from any and all Ayylmaos. And I've started to use hyperdrive a bit more, since it gives the universe more of a structured feel, and makes the game feel completely different. Warp Drive saw me expanding rapidly, quickly pushing onto the borders of other empires. Now every move is calculated, every planet weighed not only for the value of resources but also it's strategic value.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on May 19, 2016, 12:18:09 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on May 19, 2016, 01:48:55 pm
Stations in general need some improvements. The ability to customize them is a must for this type of game.Here. (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=683966053) This lets you upgrade the main types of station to your flavor. You still need to remove and replace them for post-construction upgrades just like defense stations, though.
Stations are really generally useless at the moment yea, but the game's combat seems to be heavily biased towards numbers rather then quality. You can easily take down a single ship/station using a fleet of corvettes of the same or ever lower firepower.
Also, you should be able to set priority targets during combat or something. At the moment, the AI will often focus fire single ships in your fleet, while your own fleet likes to spread he damage across several targets, meaning you'll likely never win engagements against a fleet of similar numbers/firepower.
Ignoring that Corvettes are broken (well if you break them)... They are sort of meant to be effective chaff and I'd even go as far as to say the more "armored" version of what is available.The problem is that Corvettes are flat out more efficient on pretty much every metric. They're more effective at a given fleet weight, cost less and require less infrastructure to produce, and even casual upgrading still skyrockets their evasion to make them more resilient than cap ships slathered in shields and armor.
Battleships as silly as this sounds are meant to have support to be really effective. Being, in essence, more fragile then Corvettes.
This (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=685635320) is the ship rebalance mod I'm using right now. Here's what it does:
Small weapons: -25% damage
Large weapons: +40% damage, +50% cost
Corvettes: -15% evasion, removed S1M1 module
Destroyers: Removed L1 module
Cruisers and Battleships: Slightly increased build time, increased HP.
Strike Craft: Drastically increased range.
This is pretty much perfect. There were several issues with vanilla combat:
1. Evasion-stacking was too effective, to the point where it overshadowed everything else defensively, and Corvettes were the worst abusers-nobody playing the meta used anything heavier in MP. Ergo, evasion nerf to Corvettes.
2. Ten 1-damage weapons were equivalent in every way to one 10-damage weapon, except that they had higher net DPS because of their increased accuracy and could be fielded on cheaper platforms. The damage shifts mean that picking things to death isn't optimal, and you have an actual reason to mount Large weapons instead of 4S>2M>1L being the order of the day.
3. Strike craft were broken. Carriers don't brawl any more. Duh.
4. There was no actual durability advantage to building cap ships, they had the same HP as the equivalent fleet weight in light craft. Hence, HP buff. Build time and L weapon cost/time nerfs to keep things stable.
Fuckin' love it.
Here's some other good shit:
More Technologies (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=683851819): Makes Fallen Empire war demands usable by all empires. A bunch of new, relatively balanced, techs. Caste system for internal racial management. Extreme planet terraforming and colonization. New policies. Includes the ability to research the other FTL methods. Ho-leee shit. A+.
Remove stranded stations. (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=684509976) Didn't get the chance to stomp enemy wormhole and defense stations in your territory before they surrendered? Don't want to start another war just to blow them up? Get this.
Extended Traits (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=681816257): Wondering why vanilla felt like it was missing a bunch of racial traits? Turns out that they were hiding in the workshop.
UI Mod 1080p (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=684509615): REQUIRED REQUIRED REQUIRED
Post by: Majestic7 on May 19, 2016, 02:38:51 pm
Can wormhole species have stations/fortresses that act as a wormhole station? I could see that being useful for defensive purposes.
Not without mods, afaik. Wormhole stations are just what they are... if you could have wormhole fortresses, that would be an awesome option for turtling mode.
Post by: Sirus on May 19, 2016, 02:41:25 pm
I can understand the logic behind reducing the damage of smaller weapons, but doesn't that just make early battles take much longer?
I'm also concerned about what sort of effect this will have on battles against hostile creatures. Many of those things have large weapons which will likely massacre any fleet of corvettes given these changes, but quite often these creatures also block expansion and so you almost have to deal with them. Hell, quite often a 150 power amoeba can wander into your starting system and begin wrecking stuff, and good luck stopping that with three measly base-level corvettes.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 19, 2016, 02:42:08 pm
Remove sector modification costs and let them build less military stuff
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=682730778&searchtext=
Makes AI more dynamic
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=682730778&searchtext=
Expanded war demands
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=684037552
Post by: Glloyd on May 19, 2016, 03:01:09 pm
Warscore needs tweaking. Just because I lost a spaceport on day one doesn't mean I must be forced into white peace as I blockaded enemy's only planet.
The whole war system needs tweaking. Why can I only take what I've agreed upon beforehand if I'm a militaristic fanatic xenophone despotic empire hellbent on wiping this species out and taking all their planets? It limits me to taking 2-3 planets, and if I'm in a federation I'll be lucky if I even get one out of the war. It's so silly, "oh, sorry enemy alien race whose language I didn't even decipher until right before the war started, I blew up all your fleets and have control of all your planets and aim to wipe you off the face of the galaxy. But hold on, I'm only going to take the three for myself that I was limited to asking politely for. I'll be back in ten years for three more, and then ten after that for the last two."
Post by: IronTomato on May 19, 2016, 03:10:23 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'm not sure what's going on in the first picture since I've never actually played this game, Iceblaster asked me to share these for him :P
Post by: PTTG?? on May 19, 2016, 03:13:20 pm
Warscore needs tweaking. Just because I lost a spaceport on day one doesn't mean I must be forced into white peace as I blockaded enemy's only planet.
The whole war system needs tweaking. Why can I only take what I've agreed upon beforehand if I'm a militaristic fanatic xenophone despotic empire hellbent on wiping this species out and taking all their planets? It limits me to taking 2-3 planets, and if I'm in a federation I'll be lucky if I even get one out of the war. It's so silly, "oh, sorry enemy alien race whose language I didn't even decipher until right before the war started, I blew up all your fleets and have control of all your planets and aim to wipe you off the face of the galaxy. But hold on, I'm only going to take the three for myself that I was limited to asking politely for. I'll be back in ten years for three more, and then ten after that for the last two."
It's been a problem since Crusader Kings. Speaking of which!
Gonna play a game of CK2, then export to EUIV, then I guess I'll have to get Victoria and HoI, then finally take whoever is the largest power at the end of that game and make them into the human faction of a game of Stellaris.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 19, 2016, 03:38:15 pm
Post by: Shooer on May 19, 2016, 04:16:44 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Flying Dice on May 19, 2016, 04:20:32 pm
Some other mod
Remove sector modification costs and let them build less military stuff
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=682730778&searchtext=
Makes AI more dynamic
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=682730778&searchtext=
Expanded war demands
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=684037552
For reference, the last one is part of what More Technologies does. That said, the author of Expanded War Demands has said that they're going to try to find out how to do more custom work on war demands and such in addition to unlocking the special ones.
@ Flying Dice:Actually I've found that they're generally shorter. The evasion nerf means that corvette vs. corvette action resolves roughly at the same pace, while fighting hazards with too few corvettes tends to end very abruptly. The only real slowdown would be if you're taking on something like an amoeba with barely enough corvettes to kill it. In most cases, the decreased effectiveness means you're going to need to build more corvettes for them to live long enough to win, which tends to overcompensate for the lost per-weapon damage.
I can understand the logic behind reducing the damage of smaller weapons, but doesn't that just make early battles take much longer?
I'm also concerned about what sort of effect this will have on battles against hostile creatures. Many of those things have large weapons which will likely massacre any fleet of corvettes given these changes, but quite often these creatures also block expansion and so you almost have to deal with them. Hell, quite often a 150 power amoeba can wander into your starting system and begin wrecking stuff, and good luck stopping that with three measly base-level corvettes.
TBH I like the increased difficulty and risk. The potential for something nasty to steamroll your early military or block expansion is a lot more interesting than having to build an extra three corvettes to take care of the problem.
Post by: Glloyd on May 19, 2016, 04:50:09 pm
Warscore needs tweaking. Just because I lost a spaceport on day one doesn't mean I must be forced into white peace as I blockaded enemy's only planet.
The whole war system needs tweaking. Why can I only take what I've agreed upon beforehand if I'm a militaristic fanatic xenophone despotic empire hellbent on wiping this species out and taking all their planets? It limits me to taking 2-3 planets, and if I'm in a federation I'll be lucky if I even get one out of the war. It's so silly, "oh, sorry enemy alien race whose language I didn't even decipher until right before the war started, I blew up all your fleets and have control of all your planets and aim to wipe you off the face of the galaxy. But hold on, I'm only going to take the three for myself that I was limited to asking politely for. I'll be back in ten years for three more, and then ten after that for the last two."
It's been a problem since Crusader Kings. Speaking of which!
Honestly, I'd be happy with the system from Vicky II, where you have wargoals, but you can add wargoals as the war goes on if you're doing well.
Post by: PTTG?? on May 19, 2016, 05:57:05 pm
Post by: Cruxador on May 19, 2016, 06:03:50 pm
It's been a problem since Crusader Kings.It's not a problem in Crusader Kings, exactly. It's reflective of the rules that Catholics followed after the Pope decreed that they couldn't just go and attack other Christians because they felt like it any more. Of course, CK2 added a bunch of other religions through DLC, where it doesn't fit as well, but they still generally make the CB system work broadly enough that it's only a bit awkward. The problem is, Stellaris doesn't have CBs and the war goals are not at all a well-developed system at this point. It should be something more along the lines of Vicky 2, where you can add war goals as things go along. But with the way fleets work, a war is pretty much decided by the first big engagement, so if they did that the only limit on blobbing would be how long you feel like eating war exhaustion.
Post by: tryrar on May 19, 2016, 06:08:31 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 19, 2016, 06:09:10 pm
Post by: Sirus on May 19, 2016, 06:18:32 pm
I remember on my first game starting in Sol, I had a bunch of minerals and EC to mine, along with a bit of research. It really helped me get going. However, now I'm messing around with aliens who get random systems by default, and none of them are very good. Typically I get 2 of either EC, minerals, or research, and that's it. It's getting to the point where I'm about ready to always start in Sol, immersion be damned.
Post by: TempAcc on May 19, 2016, 06:21:46 pm
Post by: Cruxador on May 19, 2016, 06:39:42 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 19, 2016, 06:48:25 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 19, 2016, 07:06:58 pm
Post by: umiman on May 19, 2016, 07:17:32 pm
Is it just me, or is their forum moderation weird? I've been banned three times now, on a generic "trolling" reason, with no real explanation or anything. And this is the same rules as the rest of the Paradox forums, which I've previously never even been warned on, despite posting plenty on the CK2 forum. Anyone else had such an experience?I think other sites don't get your nitpick-dere disposition whereas here we all know you.
Post by: IronyOwl on May 19, 2016, 07:18:46 pm
But with the way fleets work, a war is pretty much decided by the first big engagement, so if they did that the only limit on blobbing would be how long you feel like eating war exhaustion.This is probably my only major complaint about the game that I don't have any faith in getting fixed. It feels wonky and lazy in a "screw it, doesn't matter" kind of way. Hopefully I'm wrong, because there's a lot of different ways to do combat to achieve a lot of different vibes and/or effects, and "the bigger guy wrecks the smaller guy's shit" doesn't feel like any of them.
This is in contrast to the war score system which also doesn't seem like it knows what it's doing, but nonetheless feels like effort was put in to produce something other than "the bigger guy wrecks and then assimilates the smaller guy's shit."
So is it just me, or do random home systems tend to be terrible?My home systems tend to be okay. I don't think I'd have described any of them as better or worse than other random planets save for size/system goodies, so if Sol/they're "supposed" to be super awesome then I guess I would indeed rank them as terrible.
I remember on my first game starting in Sol, I had a bunch of minerals and EC to mine, along with a bit of research. It really helped me get going. However, now I'm messing around with aliens who get random systems by default, and none of them are very good. Typically I get 2 of either EC, minerals, or research, and that's it. It's getting to the point where I'm about ready to always start in Sol, immersion be damned.
Is it just me, or is their forum moderation weird? I've been banned three times now, on a generic "trolling" reason, with no real explanation or anything. And this is the same rules as the rest of the Paradox forums, which I've previously never even been warned on, despite posting plenty on the CK2 forum. Anyone else had such an experience?Never tried it, but that's alarming. Have you been able to narrow down what they took issue with?
I think we've just been spoiled by Toady's moderation.Getting chain-banned and not knowing why hints at pretty terrible moderation and/or personal awareness. I wouldn't call finding that strange being spoiled.
You gon get b& boiGalactic Xanyr Hegemony plz go
Post by: Flying Dice on May 19, 2016, 07:34:23 pm
There's no point giving ships missiles if they're going to blindly charge into knife range with everything else. There's no point using anything except the most broken weapons (Torps vs. anything without point defense, those high-DPS autocannons against everything else) when there's no nuance and no ability to kite or maintain range. There's no reason to have variable sublight speed if everything boils down to a head-to-head brawl. The combat is dull, lifeless, and shallow. Normally in 4Xes I live for the moments where I get to carefully fight my fleets and win through skill and careful composition design, but not here. It's like less complex Civ 3 combat, and that takes some doing.
That's my main criticism. Everything else can be tweaked and fixed pretty easily, but combat is utterly and comprehensively shit at the most basic level. It's as bad as GalCiv combat, and that's literally higher number wins with a grand total of three weapons and three defenses, because at least GalCiv pauses the greater galaxy or lets you autoresolve.
I mean god damn, it's not like they didn't have SoaSE to copy the combat from, because damn near everything else feels like a pretty close replica of that with the Paradox spin on things. And hey, there's another thing they missed out on, specialty capital ships and active abilities for ships based on class and modules.
Post by: Cruxador on May 19, 2016, 08:05:17 pm
I think we've just been spoiled by Toady's moderation.
I think other sites don't get your nitpick-dere disposition whereas here we all know you.Except the CK2 forum is ostensibly the same rules and mostly the same mods as the Stellaris one, and I've gone there for years about as often as you can before being considered a regular.
Never tried it, but that's alarming. Have you been able to narrow down what they took issue with?"Trolling" is the rule cited, and the second time I asked for clarification but just got told to read the rules. Asking again didn't get good results and there's only so far you can go with that before you're just doing yourself a disservice.
Also, the way it's set up, getting banned also means you're banned from PMs so for the latest ban (that prompted me to mention it) I haven't been able to even see the reason for yet.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 19, 2016, 08:16:08 pm
Alien creatures, I speak on behalf of Xanyr Hegemony, the undisputed ruler of the Galaxy. Respect our borders and keep out of our affairs, and perhaps our mighty space marines will refrain from visiting your wretched worlds.You gon get b& boiGalactic Xanyr Hegemony plz go
Post by: Cruxador on May 19, 2016, 08:22:15 pm
there's another thing they missed out on, specialty capital ships and active abilities for ships based on class and modules.Battleships have passive auras based on modules. Lack of active effect is like the lack of active involvement in general. Which works in most Paradox games because you have a lot of unimportant little engagements none of which singly matter that much.
Post by: TempAcc on May 19, 2016, 08:36:02 pm
Doesnt help that every ship model is of roughly the same size.
Post by: Karnewarrior on May 19, 2016, 08:51:02 pm
Still, I'm kinda miffed about how anything larger then a corvette is mostly irrelevant in combat. Well, destroyers aren't irrelevant, but they're not cost effective to build en masse. Ships dont have big enough of an impact by themselves, which is kinda sad since we can't experience situations like "ahah, behold my secret huge weapon capital ship thing and despair" that pretty much every space sci fi thing with ship combat has.I can kind of see why they cut out the death starring, since it's fun but not entirely realistic... but I haven't played enough of the game yet to get a good look at anything bigger than corvettes (my whole navy is currently six of them) and I have noticed that everything does seem about as big as a grain of sand on jupiter.
Doesnt help that every ship model is of roughly the same size.
Not to say my engagements with the DAMN CRYSTALS haven't been intense and bloody.
Post by: kilakan on May 19, 2016, 08:54:19 pm
In my current fairly late game (just killed my first fallen empire) I have now transition to a pure battleship fleet. Usually I kill anything they throw at me before it even gets into range for them to fire.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 19, 2016, 10:24:35 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 19, 2016, 10:54:26 pm
Huh, weird. Maybe whoever banned you was having a bad day.I think we've just been spoiled by Toady's moderation.I think other sites don't get your nitpick-dere disposition whereas here we all know you.Except the CK2 forum is ostensibly the same rules and mostly the same mods as the Stellaris one, and I've gone there for years about as often as you can before being considered a regular.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 19, 2016, 11:25:02 pm
Yeah, I know, but the auras are pretty limited insofar as that there are very few and they can only be fielded by battleships.there's another thing they missed out on, specialty capital ships and active abilities for ships based on class and modules.Battleships have passive auras based on modules. Lack of active effect is like the lack of active involvement in general. Which works in most Paradox games because you have a lot of unimportant little engagements none of which singly matter that much.
Hell, the whole combat computer thing should be a lot deeper than it is. It was a mistake to tie the stat bonuses to the behaviors (not that the behaviors are particularly elaborate). What if you want to make a long-range missileboat? Obviously you want the damage increase, but that module makes the ship charge in blindly. It should have been split into two subsystems, a "systems computer" and a "tactics computer", with the former giving a stat bonus and the latter dictating how the ship behaves in battle.
All it would take is a simple set of design-specific options: "maintain maximum range", "close with enemy", "screen long-range combatants", "pursue enemy long-range combatants", and "escort capital ships". Give a fleet focus toggle to tell the whole fleet if it should concentrate fire on a single random enemy, on one of the largest enemies, split fire between an appropriate number of the smallest enemies (to avoid overkill), or divide fire evenly across the enemy force. Lock that stuff behind some fleet tactics techs.
Bam. There. I just fixed combat. More tactical depth and less micromanagement. As it stands I feel like I have to baby my fleets because they're so willing to lemming-train into danger and there's nothing to do after you blunder into combat. I've seen a lot of people talking on the Paradox forums about how combat's fine because this is grand strategy blah blah--fuck them, no. This is a 4X, and it needs to have a solid, tactically-oriented combat system, because "lol bigger number and OP designs win everything ever" is dull. :P
Post by: Cyroth on May 19, 2016, 11:40:14 pm
Hell, the whole combat computer thing should be a lot deeper than it is. It was a mistake to tie the stat bonuses to the behaviors (not that the behaviors are particularly elaborate). What if you want to make a long-range missileboat? Obviously you want the damage increase, but that module makes the ship charge in blindly. It should have been split into two subsystems, a "systems computer" and a "tactics computer", with the former giving a stat bonus and the latter dictating how the ship behaves in battle.
All it would take is a simple set of design-specific options: "maintain maximum range", "close with enemy", "screen long-range combatants", "pursue enemy long-range combatants", and "escort capital ships". Give a fleet focus toggle to tell the whole fleet if it should concentrate fire on a single random enemy, on one of the largest enemies, split fire between an appropriate number of the smallest enemies (to avoid overkill), or divide fire evenly across the enemy force. Lock that stuff behind some fleet tactics techs.
That sounds kinda like Gratuitous Space Battles (http://store.steampowered.com/app/41800/?) grafted on top of the current Stellaris combat system. Which, now that I think about it, sounds totally awesome.
Post by: Sirus on May 19, 2016, 11:41:31 pm
That would be incredible.Hell, the whole combat computer thing should be a lot deeper than it is. It was a mistake to tie the stat bonuses to the behaviors (not that the behaviors are particularly elaborate). What if you want to make a long-range missileboat? Obviously you want the damage increase, but that module makes the ship charge in blindly. It should have been split into two subsystems, a "systems computer" and a "tactics computer", with the former giving a stat bonus and the latter dictating how the ship behaves in battle.
All it would take is a simple set of design-specific options: "maintain maximum range", "close with enemy", "screen long-range combatants", "pursue enemy long-range combatants", and "escort capital ships". Give a fleet focus toggle to tell the whole fleet if it should concentrate fire on a single random enemy, on one of the largest enemies, split fire between an appropriate number of the smallest enemies (to avoid overkill), or divide fire evenly across the enemy force. Lock that stuff behind some fleet tactics techs.
That sounds kinda like Gratuitous Space Battles (http://store.steampowered.com/app/41800/?) grafted on top of the current Stellaris combat system. Which, now that I think about it, sounds totally awesome.
Post by: IronyOwl on May 20, 2016, 12:55:11 am
Hell, the whole combat computer thing should be a lot deeper than it is. It was a mistake to tie the stat bonuses to the behaviors (not that the behaviors are particularly elaborate). What if you want to make a long-range missileboat? Obviously you want the damage increase, but that module makes the ship charge in blindly. It should have been split into two subsystems, a "systems computer" and a "tactics computer", with the former giving a stat bonus and the latter dictating how the ship behaves in battle.Would still be kind of disappointing in that strength disparity still scales exponentially, but yeah, there'd be actual moving parts now. Throwing in tactics/order following complications when trying to use a larger fleet against a smaller one could deal with some of that and give another (hopefully not obtuse) layer of decisionmaking for both fleet building and divisions.
All it would take is a simple set of design-specific options: "maintain maximum range", "close with enemy", "screen long-range combatants", "pursue enemy long-range combatants", and "escort capital ships". Give a fleet focus toggle to tell the whole fleet if it should concentrate fire on a single random enemy, on one of the largest enemies, split fire between an appropriate number of the smallest enemies (to avoid overkill), or divide fire evenly across the enemy force. Lock that stuff behind some fleet tactics techs.
Bam. There. I just fixed combat. More tactical depth and less micromanagement.
Some kind of "destroyed ships limp back to port and can be repaired for less than it'd cost to make new ones, and get a discount to being upgraded at the same time" system on top of all that could make war itself more fluid and interesting, or just muddy and cheapen everything.
Another major issue for the battles themselves, though, is that the random element is either meaningless or obtuse. I don't know how ships select their targets, but damage ranges and hit/miss chances are really only impactful if the individual attacks are. With the gradual grinddown thing it's got going on at the moment, it's hard for anything important to happen or be noticed, which means most battles go exactly as statistically predicted. A system wherein hits and crits and damage to certain modules and such were all important, unpredictable, and noticeable could do wonders for making combat (and to an extent by extension, shipbuilding) interesting on a local scale.
Battleships have passive auras based on modules. Lack of active effect is like the lack of active involvement in general. Which works in most Paradox games because you have a lot of unimportant little engagements none of which singly matter that much.
I've seen a lot of people talking on the Paradox forums about how combat's fine because this is grand strategy blah blah--fuck them, no. This is a 4X, and it needs to have a solid, tactically-oriented combat system, because "lol bigger number and OP designs win everything ever" is dull. :PAlternatively, they could just abstract combat out into blobs that sit where they're assigned and do stuff according to their combat power relative to the combat power of anything opposing them. So small fleets are still useless against larger fleets, but they're passively useless rather than get rekt and need to be replaced useless.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 20, 2016, 01:50:08 am
But with the way fleets work, a war is pretty much decided by the first big engagement, so if they did that the only limit on blobbing would be how long you feel like eating war exhaustion.
I strongly disagree, at least early game. Maybe I'd doing it wrong, but I always have far more minerals than Energy, so I find it a lot cheaper to just poof a fleet at wartime and hope they're all dead by peacetime. I see wars as a battle of resources: I outproduce ships until I win.
Another common misconception (or at least, I didn't get it for a while) is that Fleet Limits are hard limits. You can go over, but it'll cost you Energy. Obviously, if you expect heavy losses from a Big Engagement, then no problem. Which means that you can always out-build your opponent temporarily, provided you win the mineral war.
Granted, there are certain "totally boned" moments, but one battle isn't going to do it. I also acknowledge that the first massive battle is likely to have an unfair effect on the War Score, but counter that with the fact that you have to occupy a planet to demand it in peace talks. And apparently if you successfully Emergency Jump away, the battle doesn't count.
Speaking of which, any advice on integrating captured territory into my Empire? Especially if I'm Xenophobic? Additionally, what to do with disloyal vassals. I'm not even sure how I can destroy disloyal vassals. Ironically, disloyal vassals are still very much loyal in sending ships to support my fleets and declaring war on my enemies. I just don't get free stuff, from what I can see. And they might rebel.
Despite the complaints about the AI, non-player empires are certainly capable of taking advantage of the unwary player. I frequently get offered migration deals from empires whose population would be toxic for my empire, and the weakest empires are keen to ally so I can get sucked into their unwinnable wars. If I ever get offered a mutual civilian border transit agreement, I'm going to suspect a fleet of colony ships ready to cut off my routes of expansion.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 20, 2016, 02:09:39 am
I can't help but be a little amused at how fucking genocidal half the players seem to be, based on forum/reddit chatter on the subject. If 40K has done something, it has sure made people think killing billions of sentient beings is fine and fun. :P
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 20, 2016, 02:12:42 am
Post by: Neonivek on May 20, 2016, 02:19:08 am
Post by: Cyroth on May 20, 2016, 02:28:16 am
...he says, while on the Bay12 forums. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=91093.0)
And dwarven child care is not even the most hilarious thing around. There are also mermaid farming or Mr. O. M. whose full name is not to be mentioned on this forum, for example.
Now that I think about it, it has passed quite a lot of time since the last good atrocity.
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 20, 2016, 02:30:55 am
USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST
Post by: Majestic7 on May 20, 2016, 02:34:20 am
...he says, while on the Bay12 forums. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=91093.0)
Are you calling my childhood an atrocity? I'm just fine and it was beavers, not dogs. *twitches* Anyway, massacring elves doesn't count, they are walking plants.
Post by: Sirus on May 20, 2016, 04:09:57 am
Tensions between me and a race of democratic crusader slug people have been building for decades, and it finally erupted into a shooting war. Thankfully my military had been building up, and a fleet of 21 top-of-the-line corvettes jumped into the slug systems in order to made a nuisance of itself. It destroyed numerous mining and research stations before obliterating a star port without losing a single ship, leaving the colony below vulnerable to bombardment.
Meanwhile, on the opposite end of the slug empire, my defense fleet lay in wait with all sensors active. It was a mere 5 corvettes strong, all I could manage before hostilities erupted. And lo and behold, the slug's main war fleet went zooming by on a direct course for my home world. I literally could not afford to lose the star port there, as it was my primary warship construction yard and its loss would cripple my ability to replace destroyed ships. Hyperdrive got my defense fleet to the home system not long after the slug fleet, but the power disparity meant that engaging in open space would be suicidal.
So instead, I waited. I waited until the slug fleet committed itself against my star port (which was putting up a rather impressive fight, but could not hold out for long) and then sent my torpedo-armed defenders charging in from behind. The slugs decided to concentrate on my mobile forces, but being stuck within range of the star port they continued to get battered by it. And yet it still almost wasn't enough. I lost three corvettes before hitting the emergency retreat button, and the remaining slugs turned back to continue the duel against the star port.
And that's when the nearby mining station got involved. It began launching its pitiful missiles, and the slugs turned to destroy it instead. They ignored the far more dangerous and valuable target to destroy a completely replaceable EC mining station. Which they managed, no surprise there, but it took time for them to do that. Long enough for more of their ships to get damaged or destroyed. Long enough for the surviving defense fleet, battered and bloody but with shields recharged for Round Two, to return and end the battle once and for all.
Just a few days later, a second (much smaller) slug fleet arrived. It didn't stay very long.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 20, 2016, 04:14:51 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on May 20, 2016, 04:15:54 am
That was, very nearly, the combat system in Stardrive, which (coupled with basically my second-favorite ship design system) was the reason I liked the game so much. Too bad about the developer's choices, though.That would be incredible.Hell, the whole combat computer thing should be a lot deeper than it is. It was a mistake to tie the stat bonuses to the behaviors (not that the behaviors are particularly elaborate). What if you want to make a long-range missileboat? Obviously you want the damage increase, but that module makes the ship charge in blindly. It should have been split into two subsystems, a "systems computer" and a "tactics computer", with the former giving a stat bonus and the latter dictating how the ship behaves in battle.
All it would take is a simple set of design-specific options: "maintain maximum range", "close with enemy", "screen long-range combatants", "pursue enemy long-range combatants", and "escort capital ships". Give a fleet focus toggle to tell the whole fleet if it should concentrate fire on a single random enemy, on one of the largest enemies, split fire between an appropriate number of the smallest enemies (to avoid overkill), or divide fire evenly across the enemy force. Lock that stuff behind some fleet tactics techs.
That sounds kinda like Gratuitous Space Battles (http://store.steampowered.com/app/41800/?) grafted on top of the current Stellaris combat system. Which, now that I think about it, sounds totally awesome.
Post by: Neonivek on May 20, 2016, 04:55:02 am
I hope that in the future we can set target priorities for fleets and classes of ships regarding what to target etc.
I actually like that they don't have that. If ONLY because I picture that what "we" don't see is a huge chaotic space fight. It would be like telling an army of 1000 to shoot on a single random tank and expecting them all to unload their AKs on it.
If they did include it, I'd hope it isn't too powerful.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 20, 2016, 05:27:51 am
Post by: IronyOwl on May 20, 2016, 08:43:12 am
Trouble here is that respective fleet power scales exponentially; if you have more ships than the other guy, you blow up his ships faster which means he blows up fewer of your ships. It's way more efficient to build up a superblob and crush an enemy fleet in one go than it is to send wave after wave of expendable minions at it. And since mineral and energy output are both roughly analogous and largely under your control, having way more minerals and way less energy than you need strikes me as an odd choice.But with the way fleets work, a war is pretty much decided by the first big engagement, so if they did that the only limit on blobbing would be how long you feel like eating war exhaustion.
I strongly disagree, at least early game. Maybe I'd doing it wrong, but I always have far more minerals than Energy, so I find it a lot cheaper to just poof a fleet at wartime and hope they're all dead by peacetime. I see wars as a battle of resources: I outproduce ships until I win.
Obvious example: I assume you'd never, ever bother to send ships after the enemy one at a time just because you had a second ship in the queue right after it.
I hope that in the future we can set target priorities for fleets and classes of ships regarding what to target etc.
I actually like that they don't have that. If ONLY because I picture that what "we" don't see is a huge chaotic space fight. It would be like telling an army of 1000 to shoot on a single random tank and expecting them all to unload their AKs on it.
If they did include it, I'd hope it isn't too powerful.
I don't mean combat control; I mean a chance to pick target priorities in ship design window. So that you could set your torpedo boats to attack battleships first, then cruisers, then starbases, then other targets, for example. Then those boats would pick their targets according to that logic.I agree with both of these. Some measure of design/control would be nice, but not of the "always shoot the healers first" variety. Whether your torpedo boats manage to reach their battleships or not should be a noteworthy turn of events in the battle, not completely certain or something that just happens on accident sometimes.
Post by: Neonivek on May 20, 2016, 08:57:20 am
>_<
Terraforming is ridiculously expensive... so much so it feels more like they are punishing gene-modding.
Post by: Ultimuh on May 20, 2016, 09:06:39 am
But I do agree that making other "alternatives" harder/expensive kind of sucks.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 20, 2016, 09:30:02 am
Post by: jocan2003 on May 20, 2016, 02:35:52 pm
My best 2 is Stardrive and star-ruler ship building, both was incredible, if i had to choose between both, star-ruler ship design all the way.That was, very nearly, the combat system in Stardrive, which (coupled with basically my second-favorite ship design system) was the reason I liked the game so much. Too bad about the developer's choices, though.That would be incredible.Hell, the whole combat computer thing should be a lot deeper than it is. It was a mistake to tie the stat bonuses to the behaviors (not that the behaviors are particularly elaborate). What if you want to make a long-range missileboat? Obviously you want the damage increase, but that module makes the ship charge in blindly. It should have been split into two subsystems, a "systems computer" and a "tactics computer", with the former giving a stat bonus and the latter dictating how the ship behaves in battle.
All it would take is a simple set of design-specific options: "maintain maximum range", "close with enemy", "screen long-range combatants", "pursue enemy long-range combatants", and "escort capital ships". Give a fleet focus toggle to tell the whole fleet if it should concentrate fire on a single random enemy, on one of the largest enemies, split fire between an appropriate number of the smallest enemies (to avoid overkill), or divide fire evenly across the enemy force. Lock that stuff behind some fleet tactics techs.
That sounds kinda like Gratuitous Space Battles (http://store.steampowered.com/app/41800/?) grafted on top of the current Stellaris combat system. Which, now that I think about it, sounds totally awesome.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 20, 2016, 02:45:08 pm
Is it just me, or is their forum moderation weird? I've been banned three times now, on a generic "trolling" reason, with no real explanation or anything. And this is the same rules as the rest of the Paradox forums, which I've previously never even been warned on, despite posting plenty on the CK2 forum. Anyone else had such an experience?
On Paradox forums it mostly revolves around who reports you; for what; and which moderator happens to get the report.
Most of the moderators are fine but a couple are total idiots. There's one in particular who has a list of sorts, and once you're on it, he'll relentlessly punish you for any minor infraction. I've seen some of his actions reversed by the moderator chief, but eventually he'll get his man.
The way their forums function is totally absurd as well; if you're temp banned, you can't even see why or appeal it until AFTER the temp ban has expired. And it's impossible for them to retroactively lower the severity of an infraction. You can also get placed on probation, which means you can still post suggestions, but not report bugs.
Overall it matches Paradox's own design philosophy: a bunch of ad hoc crap with no regularity of policy or professionalism.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 20, 2016, 02:52:39 pm
The way their forums function is totally absurd as well; if you're temp banned, you can't even see why or appeal it until AFTER the temp ban has expired.Sounds like what Cruxador experienced. Yeesh that
And it's impossible for them to retroactively lower the severity of an infraction.Wait but... how is that public knowledge?
You can also get placed on probation, which means you can still post suggestions, but not report bugs.That sounds really dumb.
Overall it matches Paradox's own design philosophy: a bunch of ad hoc crap with no regularity of policy or professionalism.uh
That's not my experience, though I *assume* it's true of their initial releases.
You sound like you have an axe to grind...
Post by: PTTG?? on May 20, 2016, 03:25:59 pm
I just want to make giant fat space turtles with spindly alien fungus slaves!
I'm literally working on a mod to allow that. I'm willing to deal with the penalty until I find an acceptable slave race.
Huh, that was easy. (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=688203211) Am I a cool micro-modder now?
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 20, 2016, 03:31:52 pm
And it's impossible for them to retroactively lower the severity of an infraction.Wait but... how is that public knowledge?
I'm not sure it's "public knowledge" but I've seen screenshots of the conversations with a Paradox forums moderator where he explained it.
Quote
Overall it matches Paradox's own design philosophy: a bunch of ad hoc crap with no regularity of policy or professionalism.uh
That's not my experience, though I *assume* it's true of their initial releases.
You sound like you have an axe to grind...
Well, (1) if you talk to people who worked at Paradox internally for a few years, and you look at the typical problems Paradox has on release of a new product, you figure out pretty quickly that they don't really do code-base management very well. Their own CEO calls it "nonconforming game development." Patches make changes that aren't in any documentation, anywhere; those same changes are reverted without warning or explanation; and then the developers themselves don't even know how parts of the game work. I've even seen situations where developer A didn't realize developer B changed something and said he would check with head developer C on whether the change was supposed to be in the game. And we're not even talking about the bugs that creep into the games for inexplicable reasons (like Japan being randomly broken for a few patches in EU4).
(2) I suppose I do, to the extent that I think it's great that Paradox is seeing more success these days, but there are also some fundamental problems with how their design process work. If you've ever watched their developer multiplayer games in EU4, you can almost always guess what changes will be coming in the next patch. Oh, Groogy has a fucking temper tantrum and spams chat because he thinks the other player should accept a peace deal faster? We get the new Unconditional Surrender button. Oh, a player in India wins the multiplayer game? Better nerf the non-European countries some more.
And I'm not even talking about their games themselves, really. This is all 100% about how they function as a company. It's the "making it up as we go along" school of game design. Sure, they make up some good shit, mostly. But their process is loosey-goosey and it shows in the games.
Post by: Cruxador on May 20, 2016, 03:42:59 pm
uhI think he's overstating the case, but they do definitely lack consistency, and if you follow them enough, you get the idea that a big part of this is because of how the social structure of their office works, which isn't really what you want determining outcomes in a company.
That's not my experience, though I *assume* it's true of their initial releases.
Post by: PTTG?? on May 20, 2016, 04:07:15 pm
uhI think he's overstating the case, but they do definitely lack consistency, and if you follow them enough, you get the idea that a big part of this is because of how the social structure of their office works, which isn't really what you want determining outcomes in a company.
That's not my experience, though I *assume* it's true of their initial releases.
heh. heh ha ha haHAHAHHAAAAA.
Yeah you just described pretty much 100% of offices ever.
Post by: Cruxador on May 20, 2016, 04:29:21 pm
Yeah but 90% of the offices in successful companies have a lot less variance there and have some structures in place to normalize things.uhI think he's overstating the case, but they do definitely lack consistency, and if you follow them enough, you get the idea that a big part of this is because of how the social structure of their office works, which isn't really what you want determining outcomes in a company.
That's not my experience, though I *assume* it's true of their initial releases.
heh. heh ha ha haHAHAHHAAAAA.
Yeah you just described pretty much 100% of offices ever.
Post by: Sirus on May 20, 2016, 05:21:20 pm
Post by: BFEL on May 20, 2016, 05:22:04 pm
Post by: Aedel on May 20, 2016, 05:23:37 pm
Ok, WHAT THE FUCK determines the "differing war philosophy" penalty to alliance forming? Its not Bombardment policies, its not War Economy policies, my current best guess is its just YET ANOTHER "you have slightly different ethics" penalty. And it seems entirely random as to whether it appears or not. Two almost completely contradictory ethics? NO PENALTY! You're both individualists to varying degrees? DEATH PENALTY, NO ALLIANCE FOR YOU! IF YOU WANT OUT OF THAT BOXED IN POSITION YOU HAVE TO MURDER THE NICE BIRD PEOPLE!
Its a bug. I believe its a pacifists-not pacifist thing
Post by: BFEL on May 20, 2016, 06:36:03 pm
Ah. Well at least I'm not crazy :POk, WHAT THE FUCK determines the "differing war philosophy" penalty to alliance forming? Its not Bombardment policies, its not War Economy policies, my current best guess is its just YET ANOTHER "you have slightly different ethics" penalty. And it seems entirely random as to whether it appears or not. Two almost completely contradictory ethics? NO PENALTY! You're both individualists to varying degrees? DEATH PENALTY, NO ALLIANCE FOR YOU! IF YOU WANT OUT OF THAT BOXED IN POSITION YOU HAVE TO MURDER THE NICE BIRD PEOPLE!
Its a bug. I believe its a pacifists-not pacifist thing
Post by: JimboM12 on May 20, 2016, 07:03:11 pm
Ah. Well at least I'm not crazy :P
Well, we all are considering our mutual tastes in games and forum, but it happens to not be the issue this time.
Note to all xenophobic, enslaving empires with filthy xeno vassals: remember to open an embassy with your vassals to show them true power with cheese slices and plush carpets, and remember to build a frontier outpost on their home star with a FTL blocking fortress near their home shipyard. Now, if only slave shielding was a thing.
Edit note: I had forgotten to do this and predictable results happened.
Post by: Sirus on May 20, 2016, 07:19:44 pm
After the first war with them, I was busy dealing with dissenting factions for more than ten years, with all of the sabotage and non-violent resistance that implies. This time, the slugs seem to be behaving thus far. There's only one dissident faction, consisting of a single pop on a single planet, that seeks independence for said planet. Maybe they figure that there's no real going back, that life in the Chozo Star Union is how it will be from now on.
Post by: IronyOwl on May 20, 2016, 08:22:41 pm
Does it strike anyone else as wrong that a fleet suffering from warp cooldown can immediately become fully functional if they get into a battle? I tried to ambush some warping slugs using my hyperdrive fleet, hoping to massacre the lot of them while they were helpless. Sadly, they instantly shifted to combat mode and managed to (temporarily) escape annihilation using emergency FTL.No, that seems perfectly reasonable. The idea behind warp cooldown is to punish warp's flexibility with decreased speed, not make it dangerous to move anywhere during war. I assume.
That said, war/battles could certainly do with more moving parts.
Speaking of which, all of my invading armies are trapped in low orbit around the planets they were on when peace were declared. Are they going to magically warp back when my MIA fleet does, or is that just their life now?
Post by: hector13 on May 20, 2016, 08:34:49 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 20, 2016, 08:52:29 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 20, 2016, 08:55:23 pm
Very good game overall, but it's also really unfinished compared to other Pdox titles. If you want a solid experience right through then maybe wait for some DLC to come out.
Post by: Sergarr on May 21, 2016, 06:15:47 am
Trouble here is that respective fleet power scales exponentially; if you have more ships than the other guy, you blow up his ships faster which means he blows up fewer of your ships. It's way more efficient to build up a superblob and crush an enemy fleet in one go than it is to send wave after wave of expendable minions at it.Quadratically, actually. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanchester's_laws#Lanchester.27s_Square_Law) A single blob of 10000 ships is an equal match for 100 groups composed of 1000 ships.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 21, 2016, 07:41:12 am
Post by: dennislp3 on May 21, 2016, 07:57:46 am
Looking to sell it for $30
I will take paypal or steam credit
Post by: lastverb on May 21, 2016, 08:02:29 am
As it comes to tomb worlds (you will love those wastelands) - does anyone know if it's possible to make tile blockers not removable (like pre-sentient encampments)? Removing cost just make them free. I have to keep them on ridiculus price to prevent sector ai from destroying them.
Post by: Cheeetar on May 21, 2016, 08:09:03 am
if anyone is looking for a discount copy I have an extra copy of Stellaris that I acquired.
Looking to sell it for $30
I will take paypal or steam credit
Acquired how? Is it a CD Key, or a giftable copy on Steam?
Post by: dennislp3 on May 21, 2016, 08:19:46 am
Post by: IronyOwl on May 21, 2016, 08:22:17 am
Speaking of which, all of my invading armies are trapped in low orbit around the planets they were on when peace were declared. Are they going to magically warp back when my MIA fleet does, or is that just their life now?The former! I was not optimistic, but they came back.
Neat.Trouble here is that respective fleet power scales exponentially; if you have more ships than the other guy, you blow up his ships faster which means he blows up fewer of your ships. It's way more efficient to build up a superblob and crush an enemy fleet in one go than it is to send wave after wave of expendable minions at it.Quadratically, actually. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanchester's_laws#Lanchester.27s_Square_Law) A single blob of 10000 ships is an equal match for 100 groups composed of 1000 ships.
Fair warning, it's broken as Paradox games usually are. Quest lines don't play nice with survey data acquired outside of your own survey ships doing work, that's why you often stop finding anomalies altogether. If you got map data through a trade deal or Galactic Ambitions, you won't find anomalies (and thus won't find quest points) in those areas. So don't accept any trade deals for map data, and get this mod (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=688305439&searchtext=Galactic+Ambition).God damn it. So much for uncovering the secrets of an ancient Federation.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 21, 2016, 09:35:57 am
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 21, 2016, 11:05:56 am
Post by: A Thing on May 21, 2016, 11:15:57 am
So paradox interactive has policy of ,, kek, no warcrimes in our games, ayyyylmeo" ?
Considering that I sometimes I fill enemy dynastic bloodlines in CK2 with so much shared blood that inbred kids are close to guaranteed, I wouldn't say that's the case. As for Stellaris, you can enslave and genocide pops from what I know and that sounds like warcrimes to me.
Post by: Iituem on May 21, 2016, 11:19:08 am
So paradox interactive has policy of ,, kek, no warcrimes in our games, ayyyylmeo" ?
Definitely no running themes of committing atrocities in any of Paradox's games! Nope nope nope!
On the subject of atrocity, I've been playing a supercollectivist militarist insect empire when I've not been recording, and occasionally I conquer empires if their subjects look like they could settle worlds the Screk can't. One such empire turned out to be full of an ocean-dwelling race of decadent slavers (the Mantok), without much in the way of redeeming features. I kept them around, hoping to re-educate them, periodically purging new growths in the hopes that their fanatic individualist xenophile types might change to at least slightly collectivist. Then I found the Draxle, a race of industrial primitives on an ocean world. Rapid breeding, no penalties. One swift conquest later, I take the first new pop (no culture shock penalty) and re-settle them on Mantok Prime, the world full of the useless slavers.
I now have a pliable, useful ocean-settler. And at last I've found use for the "Purge All Pops" button. Six months of genocide and fifteen billion sapients later, once the screams that echoed across the whole planet have died away, the Screk are free of competition and the Mantok are little more than a distant memory, re-educated out of the history books. When future Draxle wonder about their new home, all they will know is that there were some vermin that got exterminated prior to their arrival, paving their way to colonise a new, empty world. One full of infrastructure that one can only assume was pre-built by their benevolent Screk masters for their use. Funny how the controls don't quite match up to either Screk or Draxle hands...
Post by: BFEL on May 21, 2016, 11:54:42 am
Me and my brother have started a new game.http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DefeatMeansFriendship
I'm playing fanatically xenophilic militarists. I'm planning on basically being benevolent conquerors.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 21, 2016, 12:42:41 pm
Post by: umiman on May 21, 2016, 01:16:40 pm
On the rare subject of things done right: primitive civs. Uplifting primitives and sub-sentients is a cornerstone of space opera and it's nice that Paradox included it. I especially like how Space Age civs can uplift themselves into fledgling empires if given enough time. The whole "uplift less advanced species and slowly incorporate them into your own society to form a multiracial conglomerate civilization" thing is really fun, and AFAIK apart from Stellaris only Aurora lets you do it (and in that case requires outright conquest). Deeper tactical combat and ship behavior is first on my list of wants, but a further expansion of diplomacy and uplift is close behind.you can do it in distant worlds too.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 21, 2016, 01:51:52 pm
So paradox interactive has policy of ,, kek, no warcrimes in our games, ayyyylmeo" ?
Considering that I sometimes I fill enemy dynastic bloodlines in CK2 with so much shared blood that inbred kids are close to guaranteed, I wouldn't say that's the case. As for Stellaris, you can enslave and genocide pops from what I know and that sounds like warcrimes to me.
Those are indeed features. And both slavery and genocide are officially war crimes. They're only missing torture.*
Ironically, one way of interpreting the Paradox forum rules would actually forbid discussion of the very features built into the game (the wrong interpretation of the Paradox Forum rules, for the record, but I wouldn't expect their mods to be as precise as I).
*Will we be getting an "Enhanced Xeno Interrogation" DLC?
Post by: Flying Dice on May 21, 2016, 02:07:44 pm
Simple changes, but it's probably immeasurably better than vanilla:
1. No more idiotic triangle formation.
2. Changes to sublight movement (including the introduction of deceleration).
3. Various other balance changes, for better or for worse.
Here's the big one, a rework of combat computers:
Standard combat Computers:
- closes range and opens fire (due to a bug in targetting distance calculation, standard uses the orbit mechanic at the moment - I had intended them to use the chase mechanic)
- prefers to target same ship it began firing at
- new standard targeting computers for basic and advanced techs, gives a small bonus to all ship stats
Defensive combat:
- ships actively try and stay at maximum range
- will try and target ships that weapons are most effective against
- prefers to shoot closest targets first
Offensive combat:
- charges in to minimum weapon range
- aggressively targets ships close to death
PRAISE BE, testing now
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 21, 2016, 02:39:18 pm
Those are indeed features. And both slavery and genocide are officially war crimes. They're only missing torture.*Upon pissing off some xeno slavers, they reminded me via diplomatic channels that my species' children fitted exceptionally well in the smallest of mining tunnels
Ironically, one way of interpreting the Paradox forum rules would actually forbid discussion of the very features built into the game (the wrong interpretation of the Paradox Forum rules, for the record, but I wouldn't expect their mods to be as precise as I).
*Will we be getting an "Enhanced Xeno Interrogation" DLC?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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For most, they have acted too late.
The Miroslav are emerging from their techno-spiritual enlightenment, the Divine Armada is for the first time waking from its slumber, the isolationists are secluded no longer.
Already the first moves are being made to save the long lost Miroslavs, now scattered across the cosmos under alien masters.
The time to bring the new order to the universe approaches.
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 21, 2016, 02:54:09 pm
,, ..."Seriously, what the hell kind of quote marks are those even supposed to be? Commas? Really?
Post by: Noel.se on May 21, 2016, 03:01:57 pm
It's a huge investment of time, requires a bunch of techs and (admittedly common) strategic resources. More importantly, I never felt the need to. I guess it could be useful when you are boxed in and also unwilling to expand through force (as well as unwilling to accept xenos, including gene-modded members of your own species),
Plus the fact that the planet needs to be inside your border is quite limiting.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 21, 2016, 03:28:00 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Okay, test game is started. I've only got corvettes so the differences aren't outstanding (15 range lasers on everything means everything is knife-range combat, heh), but you can still tell. The red ones are Aggressive, the blue ones are Defensive. Same deal persisted through the entire fight, the Defensive ships played back a bit, generally sticking together and firing at whichever were closest, while the Aggressive ones kept charging through the enemy formation.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: jhxmt on May 21, 2016, 07:09:16 pm
1) Pre-sentient creatures, which appear as pops on planets. You can uplift these if they're in your empire's territory, but you don't need to colonise the planet they're on. You can also gene-mod them when you uplift them, assuming you have the requisite technologies.
2) Stone-age primitives, which appear as a modifier (not pops) on some planets. You need to colonise the planet to have any interactions with them (which are limited to, basically, avoiding them or not avoiding them and occasionally suffering a bad event).
3) Post-stone-age but pre-spacefaring-age primitive civilisations, which are the ones for which observation posts are used (and you can use them for science, hurry up their advancement to become an empire, or coverly infiltrate them). Or, y'know, just invade the planet.
Am I more or less in the right ballpark? I've only really done anything with #3s so far, so want to make sure I'm not completely off-base with how I think the others work. :P
Post by: Retropunch on May 21, 2016, 07:15:27 pm
Just so I'm sure I'm not getting something wrong - there are, effectively, three different types of Primitives, right?
1) Pre-sentient creatures, which appear as pops on planets. You can uplift these if they're in your empire's territory, but you don't need to colonise the planet they're on. You can also gene-mod them when you uplift them, assuming you have the requisite technologies.
2) Stone-age primitives, which appear as a modifier (not pops) on some planets. You need to colonise the planet to have any interactions with them (which are limited to, basically, avoiding them or not avoiding them and occasionally suffering a bad event).
3) Post-stone-age but pre-spacefaring-age primitive civilisations, which are the ones for which observation posts are used (and you can use them for science, hurry up their advancement to become an empire, or coverly infiltrate them). Or, y'know, just invade the planet.
Am I more or less in the right ballpark? I've only really done anything with #3s so far, so want to make sure I'm not completely off-base with how I think the others work. :P
Pretty much. In regards to 2, not avoiding them tends to put them in observation reserves, which means that about three quarters of the planet's tiles are taken up, but they give you huge adjacency bonuses. Occasionally they kill off one of your pops though.
I've found it pretty useful as I've just covered my planet in science buildings and basically got a society research planet.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 21, 2016, 09:00:03 pm
Also, stone age primitives in a reservation have a chance of approaching your colonists and asking to work alongside them-accepting will create several populations for them of a new species, which can be anywhere from excellent to terrible depending on RNG.
--
TFW you play a materialist militaristic empire devoted to locking down FTL movement in a Hyperdrive-only game and end up allied with a state devoted to founding a federation for Jolly Cooperation with a bunch of happy primitive races working alongside you to accomplish your goals, leading to trimming back your more objectionable policies. I feel like a space opera tsundere. Seriously considering switching over from Despotic Hegemony to Military Republic, gods help me.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on May 21, 2016, 09:37:22 pm
Post by: Cruxador on May 21, 2016, 10:03:30 pm
So paradox interactive has policy of ,, kek, no warcrimes in our games, ayyyylmeo" ?They have a theme of "nothing that can get our games banned in Germany". So no anti-semitic war crimes, and no war crimes involving stuffing undesirables in death camps, and no genocide (aliens are apparently a loophole) and Hitler's face is shaded in HoI and they use the iron cross flag instead of the swastika flag. They seem totally fine with atrocities otherwise.
He probably didn't know that in English, quote marks go at the top regardless of what side they're on. It's a pretty rare phenomena, among languages that don't copy their quote marks from English. Most languages either have one at the top and one at the bottom (eg. German) or big ones on each side that span from top to bottom (eg. French). Of the errors people make in using English, this one is way less annoying than most, including some that native speakers make.,, ..."Seriously, what the hell kind of quote marks are those even supposed to be? Commas? Really?
Post by: Radsoc on May 22, 2016, 12:42:09 am
Post by: Sirus on May 22, 2016, 12:50:08 am
Excuse me? This is a military dictatorship, we are warthirsty xeno-enslaving bugs, and my ships are tailor-made to rip apart everything they own. The hell do you mean it's too much? Why won't you do as I say?
So I made do with three planets, including their homeworld. Of course, now I need to edit the ethics and start a new game, because APPARENTLY having xeno slaves makes my own population unhappy.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 22, 2016, 12:54:15 am
I think it's because Paradox was still thinking in terms of grand strategy rather than 4X. You're not 'supposed' to roll over the entire map (even if the nominal victory conditions say otherwise), you're supposed to build a star nation and then interact with others. Once we get default open borders in it'll feel a lot better, I suspect.
Post by: Sirus on May 22, 2016, 12:59:42 am
Post by: IronyOwl on May 22, 2016, 02:46:10 am
Random question, how many of you actually terraform?I've never terraformed anything, and odds are decent I never will, not because it's hard but because I dislike how... fluid, it makes the galaxy. It's like, having an arctic world and an arid world around that one star is a feature of the galaxy, and it feels like it cheapens said galaxy to just shrug and say "no, they're oceans now."
It's a huge investment of time, requires a bunch of techs and (admittedly common) strategic resources. More importantly, I never felt the need to. I guess it could be useful when you are boxed in and also unwilling to expand through force (as well as unwilling to accept xenos, including gene-modded members of your own species),
Plus the fact that the planet needs to be inside your border is quite limiting.
A decent analogy would be if you could modify tile bonuses. I mean, yeah, it's convenient, but the end effect is that every planet looks exactly like its role. It's boring.
I think it's because Paradox was still thinking in terms of grand strategy rather than 4X. You're not 'supposed' to roll over the entire map (even if the nominal victory conditions say otherwise), you're supposed to build a star nation and then interact with others. Once we get default open borders in it'll feel a lot better, I suspect.Which makes it all the stranger that there's... not a lot to do there. You know how infuriating I find it that you can't, like, initiate trade with friendly empires or something? Civilian trade, not selling minerals for energy or the two other things a friendly empire still doesn't hate you enough to refuse even considering. It doesn't need to be complex! Just... something other than staring at him across our territory border thinking "I'm definitely not going to kill you."
Fair enough, but in that game I wanted to eclipse the stars with my mighty bug swarm. It really should be an option, or something to do with ethics perhaps. You'd think a heavily militaristic society would be willing to go all the way in a war.A lot of this is probably balance and granularity issues. You could argue that (some) Collectivist civilizations shouldn't have to pay Influence or that Materialists should be pragmatic enough not to care about another empire's ethics or that pacifists shouldn't be able to declare war at all and so on, but it gets wonky and un-universally applicable pretty fast.
So, maybe your bugs are so warlike that they just can't handle divvying up more than three planets at a time lest their rivals gain an edge and stab them to death, or they want to leave their prey crippled and reeling so they can draw back and strike it again, or they feel like their performance wasn't good enough to warrant more than 3/4ths of the enemy as cattle, and so on. It's probably easier to figure out why their net total is mostly normal than trying to let them cut weird corners nobody else can, with or without trying to balance it out with more angles afterwards.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 22, 2016, 03:10:43 am
I think it's because Paradox was still thinking in terms of grand strategy rather than 4X. You're not 'supposed' to roll over the entire map (even if the nominal victory conditions say otherwise), you're supposed to build a star nation and then interact with others. Once we get default open borders in it'll feel a lot better, I suspect.Which makes it all the stranger that there's... not a lot to do there. You know how infuriating I find it that you can't, like, initiate trade with friendly empires or something? Civilian trade, not selling minerals for energy or the two other things a friendly empire still doesn't hate you enough to refuse even considering. It doesn't need to be complex! Just... something other than staring at him across our territory border thinking "I'm definitely not going to kill you."
And then you do, because there is nothing else to do.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 22, 2016, 03:47:17 am
Fair enough, but in that game I wanted to eclipse the stars with my mighty bug swarm. It really should be an option, or something to do with ethics perhaps. You'd think a heavily militaristic society would be willing to go all the way in a war.
yeah, at most it should be balanced by diplomatic penalties, so that now everyone hates you and will ally against you at the drop of a hat.
Post by: lastverb on May 22, 2016, 03:59:24 am
Regarding fleet behavior in combat: Ask and ye shall receive. (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=686808236&searchtext=)
PRAISE BE, testing now
Please do tell how it goes. Especially if battleship with range 60 weapons only and PD with Offensive comp do rush to point-blank. Also if it balances ship sensor (in vanilla 1.03 you get 100% accuracy with EVERY weapon as long as you use sensors t2+ of course deducting evasion).
Post by: Retropunch on May 22, 2016, 04:03:34 am
I think it's because Paradox was still thinking in terms of grand strategy rather than 4X. You're not 'supposed' to roll over the entire map (even if the nominal victory conditions say otherwise), you're supposed to build a star nation and then interact with others. Once we get default open borders in it'll feel a lot better, I suspect.Which makes it all the stranger that there's... not a lot to do there. You know how infuriating I find it that you can't, like, initiate trade with friendly empires or something? Civilian trade, not selling minerals for energy or the two other things a friendly empire still doesn't hate you enough to refuse even considering. It doesn't need to be complex! Just... something other than staring at him across our territory border thinking "I'm definitely not going to kill you."
And then you do, because there is nothing else to do.
I'm gradually finding this out, and it's pretty much ruining my view on the game. It's literally war or nothing. It doesn't need to be as involved as CKII in terms of setting up marriages and whatever, but there is just nothing to do other than fight. Whilst I was originally impressed by how different the nations seemed, I can't interact with them in any other way than blowing them up.
That's fun enough in itself, but I feel that it's lost a lot/pretty much all it's replayability, as I don't know how else I can play the game other than as a warlord. I can't be a small independent nation carving a niche for myself, nor can I be mercantile empire or a sprawling pacifist religious cult.
I am heartened by the fact that they know the game needs big changes though, and I'm sure diplomacy will be DLC number 1.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 22, 2016, 04:27:49 am
Regarding fleet behavior in combat: Ask and ye shall receive. (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=686808236&searchtext=)
PRAISE BE, testing now
Please do tell how it goes. Especially if battleship with range 60 weapons only and PD with Offensive comp do rush to point-blank. Also if it balances ship sensor (in vanilla 1.03 you get 100% accuracy with EVERY weapon as long as you use sensors t2+ of course deducting evasion).
I tested with strike craft ranges, 100 scout, 75 bomber and 65 fighters, they do get released far enough but then snipe the enemy from ridiculous distance instead of closing in and fighting. maybe I missed something.
Post by: Noel.se on May 22, 2016, 09:19:04 am
Random question, how many of you actually terraform?I've never terraformed anything, and odds are decent I never will, not because it's hard but because I dislike how... fluid, it makes the galaxy. It's like, having an arctic world and an arid world around that one star is a feature of the galaxy, and it feels like it cheapens said galaxy to just shrug and say "no, they're oceans now."
It's a huge investment of time, requires a bunch of techs and (admittedly common) strategic resources. More importantly, I never felt the need to. I guess it could be useful when you are boxed in and also unwilling to expand through force (as well as unwilling to accept xenos, including gene-modded members of your own species),
Plus the fact that the planet needs to be inside your border is quite limiting.
Funnily enough, I think that late game megaprojects that modify the galaxy in some long lasting way are something that would improve this game. We have terraforming and gene-modding, and that's it. What about building ringworlds, deathstars and orbital habitats and glassing planets? All of this should be very expensive and require advanced technology, of course. It should also require strategic resources, this way they could become a source of conflict. Finally, you'd get something to do lategame that doesn't necessarily involve conquest.
Currently, habitable planets are common, and 1/7 of them are perfect for your species. In my current game, I haven't even colonized all perfectly habitable planets inside my borders due to the potential research penalties. If they were less common, they (as well as the resources needed to terraform them) could become more precious.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 22, 2016, 10:27:42 am
Post by: Flying Dice on May 22, 2016, 10:32:40 am
Regarding fleet behavior in combat: Ask and ye shall receive. (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=686808236&searchtext=)
PRAISE BE, testing now
Please do tell how it goes. Especially if battleship with range 60 weapons only and PD with Offensive comp do rush to point-blank. Also if it balances ship sensor (in vanilla 1.03 you get 100% accuracy with EVERY weapon as long as you use sensors t2+ of course deducting evasion).
I tested with strike craft ranges, 100 scout, 75 bomber and 65 fighters, they do get released far enough but then snipe the enemy from ridiculous distance instead of closing in and fighting. maybe I missed something.
Meh, still less broken than they are in vanilla. I'll get my current game up to speed for mixed-fleet testing as I can.
Post by: jhxmt on May 22, 2016, 10:43:14 am
I'm playing my current campaign as my splinter-group of humans and their tyrannical government slowly being brought back into the light of humanity by prolonged contact with lesser races they originally sought to enslave-the first internal questioning of Terran policy came when an infiltration agent eloped with an alien lover and condemned the rest of the unit devoted to the takeover as monsters-ultimately culminating with them shifting towards an inclusive, honorable state devoted to rescuing and protecting weaker and less-developed races from the galactic powerhouses while participating in a grand federation which is inevitably being formed by our jolly democratic mouth-faced neighbors.
Except, of course, that your civ's ethics remain the same, so while your government is doing the honourable thing your day-to-day citizens are still rampantly xenophobic, right? :P
Post by: Flying Dice on May 22, 2016, 11:09:33 am
There's a lot of potential for good storytelling here, it's just constrained by the bare-bones mechanics. A few games ago I formed an early alliance with one of my neighbors, and it was called the [Avian word salad name of their homeworld] Pact. A few years later, a third race joined. That seems so petty, but it really drove it home for me, the vision of human diplomats traveling in rickety starships to this far-off alien world to sign a treaty to ward against the aggression of our zealous, militant third neighbor. The pride and relief when it holds, when a third civilization closes ranks with us. Shit like that is what we need more of.
--
REGARDING SHIP BEHAVIOR:
Here's another option. (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=684750984&searchtext=) Very limited changes with this one. It removes the behaviors from the vanilla computers and leaves them as pure stat modifiers, as well as adding a second computer module which allows you to EITHER choose one of the vanilla behavior modules OR lock the class's engagement range at 5/15/25/35/45/55 units. I think I might switch to this one.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 22, 2016, 11:23:36 am
Random question, how many of you actually terraform?I've never terraformed anything, and odds are decent I never will, not because it's hard but because I dislike how... fluid, it makes the galaxy. It's like, having an arctic world and an arid world around that one star is a feature of the galaxy, and it feels like it cheapens said galaxy to just shrug and say "no, they're oceans now."
It's a huge investment of time, requires a bunch of techs and (admittedly common) strategic resources. More importantly, I never felt the need to. I guess it could be useful when you are boxed in and also unwilling to expand through force (as well as unwilling to accept xenos, including gene-modded members of your own species),
Plus the fact that the planet needs to be inside your border is quite limiting.
Funnily enough, I think that late game megaprojects that modify the galaxy in some long lasting way are something that would improve this game. We have terraforming and gene-modding, and that's it. What about building ringworlds, deathstars and orbital habitats and glassing planets? All of this should be very expensive and require advanced technology, of course. It should also require strategic resources, this way they could become a source of conflict. Finally, you'd get something to do lategame that doesn't necessarily involve conquest.
Currently, habitable planets are common, and 1/7 of them are perfect for your species. In my current game, I haven't even colonized all perfectly habitable planets inside my borders due to the potential research penalties. If they were less common, they (as well as the resources needed to terraform them) could become more precious.
We can glass our own planet already without being 23d century high tech guys with AIs doing research for them.
Post by: BFEL on May 22, 2016, 11:26:03 am
1) Pre-sentient creatures, which appear as pops on planets. You can uplift these if they're in your empire's territory, but you don't need to colonise the planet they're on. You can also gene-mod them when you uplift them, assuming you have the requisite technologies.Note that these are hilariously amazing because they start with a unique, potentially gamebreaking trait. Oh, and they'll ALWAYS have +20% happiness because you uplifted them.
In my Invincible Dragons game I uplifted a few molluscoids whose trait was +20% society research at the cost of a few negatives to minerals and food production. You can stack this with Intelligent. You can stack this with Natural sociologists. So I basically have the most amazing genetics researchers who are always happy, giving them a further boost to research.
Also saw one with extra habitability at the cost of some happiness I think. Or maybe it was migration time.
Anyway, the uplift traits tend to specialize them hilariously well into some niche or another.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 22, 2016, 11:44:19 am
Post by: Noel.se on May 22, 2016, 11:59:30 am
We can glass our own planet already without being 23d century high tech guys with AIs doing research for them.True that. I suppose the cost of glassing a planet is the planet itself.
Post by: BFEL on May 22, 2016, 12:18:25 pm
DNA modifying is truly amazing, however, there is no some sort of infinitely researchable tech for getting extra trait points for making intellegent super strong higly adaptable constantly happy supersupermen.Well there IS actually a mod for that, but what I was referring to is that an uplifted pop can start with unique traits that give them an edge in a field. They can then be modified with OTHER traits that also give an edge in said field, giving you at least one "super" stat. And the happy part just comes from them being uplifted, as simply being uplifted gives a huge happiness modifier.
Post by: Sirus on May 22, 2016, 12:41:38 pm
So far I'm leaning towards the first possibility. I took the basic United Nations of Earth and generated them three times: once in Sol, once in Deneb, and once in a random system. All other parameters in both empire statistics and galaxy setup remained the same.
In Sol, I started with 3 EC, 2 Minerals, and 4 Engineering.
In Deneb, I started with 4 EC, 3 Minerals, 2 Engineering, and 2 difficult anomalies.
In a random system, I started with 11 EC, 11 Minerals, and an easy anomaly.
None of my custom empires in random systems have started with anything near that huge of an early-game advantage, instead starting with 2 of a single resource at best.
I'm going to move on to testing the other pre-made empires, before going back to customs.
Commonwealth of Man
Sol: 6 EC, 3 anomalies (all difficult with 50% base fail rates, one at level 3 and thus with an 80% chance to fail at the moment)
Deneb: 3 EC, 1 medium anomaly
Random: 2 EC, 3 minerals, a medium anomaly
Tzynn Empire
Sol: 8 EC, 4 minerals, 6 engineering
Deneb: 3 EC, 10 minerals, 2 physics
Random: 4 EC, 2 physics, 1 medium anomaly
Kingdom of Yondarin
Sol: 5 EC, 4 minerals, 2 medium anomalies
Deneb: 2 EC, 2 minerals, 4 engineering, 1 easy anomaly.
Random: 7 minerals
Ix'Idar Star Collective
Sol: 3 EC, 6 minerals, 1 medium anomaly
Deneb: 4 EC, 4 minerals
Random: 4 minerals and a medium anomaly. Also an unemployed pop right away and an event that gave -15 happiness.
Chinorr Stellar Union
Sol: 10 EC, 8 minerals, 1 medium anomaly
Deneb: 4 EC, 3 minerals, 2 medium anomalies
Random: 6 EC, 5 minerals, 2 engineering
Jehetma Dominion
Sol: 12 EC, 4 minerals, 1 social, 1 engineering, 2 medium anomalies
Deneb: 6 minerals
Random: 4 EC, 3 engineering, 1 medium anomaly
Scyldari Confederacy
Sol: 2 EC, 4 minerals, 1 social, 1 engineering, 1 medium anomaly
Deneb: 9 EC, 3 minerals
Random: 2 EC, 2 minerals, 2 engineering, 1 medium anomaly.
So that's all the pre-built species. 24 games, three per species. Average starting resources are as follows:
EC: 4.4583333....
Minerals: 3.9583333...
Physics: 0.16666...
Social: 0.083333...
Engineering: 1.0416666...
Anomalies: 0.916666...
Next up, custom species.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 22, 2016, 02:10:22 pm
No, they were never xenophobic. Fanatic Materialistic and Militaristic. I'm going to change government type from an autocratic one to a democratic one in a few years game-time and move a bunch of policy sliders to match. Though yeah, it's fucked how traits are basically set in stone instead of being affected by player actions. If you start thirty goddamn wars as a Fanatic Pacifist civ, you shouldn't be Fanatic Pacifist any more.
Technically, the term is "Ethics", traits you can muck up all you want with gene modding.
But yeah, I have no idea why they can't change. Take my Empire: Human Xenophobic Individualist Militant. Only: The Xenophile aliens we mistakenly took in now outnumber the humans, and because all the wars are focused on the Human colonies, the goodly Fungus guys are only ones able to make warships. We'd be screwed without them, and I even changed some laws to make them happier (they can now vote, and we moderated our pre-FTL stance). But even after I likely lose the human colonies in the current war, we'll still be Xenophobic.
Speaking of which, I'm on the fence about Xenophobic's benefits, being limited to enslaving aliens. At Xenophobic 1, it still pisses off everyone. And you're annoying all your neighbors, making yourself a victim.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 22, 2016, 03:47:31 pm
So yeah. Use the second ship behavior mod I linked a bit back to set your behaviors and only ever pick the defensive stat one.
Post by: Cruxador on May 22, 2016, 04:39:46 pm
DNA modifying is truly amazing, however, there is no some sort of infinitely researchable tech for getting extra trait points for making intellegent super strong higly adaptable constantly happy supersupermen.I'd prefer if there was... A rare and expensive tech, to be sure, but becoming a race of super men seems like a reasonable goal to have once you run out of non-repeatable techs. Certainly more interesting than most of the repeatables.
Post by: Retropunch on May 22, 2016, 05:54:29 pm
Having to bring together a number of races to ascend in some way, or creating a super city (think citadel sort of thing), or destroying the entire universe or *anything* that sort of changes things up in a major way.
I have to say the hype train ruined me a bit, I thought it was going to be genuinely different, but it's coming off at the moment as a really good - but completely samey - version of many 4x games, with terrible UI and some ropey mechanics.
I'm still confident as the devs know it needs improving, but I'm just not sure if they understand what people really want.
Post by: Greenbane on May 22, 2016, 06:08:15 pm
I'm still confident as the devs know it needs improving, but I'm just not sure if they understand what people really want.
But the question is, do the people even know what they really want?
Post by: Karnewarrior on May 22, 2016, 06:12:13 pm
Who the heck are you??
So some of the alien governments have changed... forms. The cthuloid mushroom folk I had been trying to meet with to add to the alliance have become much less cthuloid fish people, with no explanation. I'm not sure if this is a bug or some other species getting elected president though; the nations it happened too seem to be republican, whereas the (constitutional) monarchist ahtyrrans seem to remain creepy bugmen.
Another thing I noticed is that observation posts in sectors don't gift tech to primitives. Which sucks, as both species in my empire are continental, and while I think there is one ahtyyran on some random moon somewhere... I lost him.
Also, it sucks that I can't ally the not-sangheli just because their moderate militant and I'm neutral on that. You'd think they'd jump at the chances to be honorable protectors and glorious elites in the military of our burgeoning federation, but no. They want to fight no wars, and twiddle their thumbs on their quintet of planets like cowards.
Also, always always always need more betharium. Those power plants have a default of TEN EC. Which matches up nicely with four of them and a power hub, and my system of gas giants which provides 13 EC raw.
...what do you mean that's in the south orion sector? Dammit. I'm my own worst enemy!
Post by: Flying Dice on May 22, 2016, 06:45:17 pm
ZBeautiful Battles
BB Compatible Ship Improvements
BB Compatible Rangefinder
Those three do everything that needs doing. All you have to do is open up the 00_ship_sizes files for the latter two and make them compatible with each other by adding Rangefinder's additional module slot to the four ship types for SI and changing the values for the mining, research, and outpost stations which SI sets in the Rangefinder file (lowering base cost, adding scaling cost based on components, and allowing them to be designed).
Get the decreased ship scale mod on top of that and you're set for some fancy, functional battles.
Post by: BFEL on May 22, 2016, 08:01:41 pm
All you have to do is open up the 00_ship_sizes files for the latter two and make them compatible with each otherEw, actual work :P
Anyway, liking the More Technologies mod. Been genetics-ing up some superaliums. My original race, The Invincible Dragons of Carpathian Lineage, are Very Strong, Resilient, Thrifty, AND Industrius.
So they are both HILARIOUSLY powerful warriors (psychic SPEHSS MARINE dragons no fucking less) as well as excellent resource miners.
I also have taken the Molluscoids that I uplifted and turned them into the galaxies greatest scholars. They STARTED with a 20% bonus to society research from their pre-sentient trait, and had Intelligent added onto that early on. I've since given them the scholar caste trait from the mod, giving them 20% bonuses to ALL research, and made them Natural Physicists as well, since I've been lagging behind in that area.
And if THAT wasn't enough, I ALSO threw in Nomadic and Rapid Breeders so that I can overcome the shortage of them I seem to be experiencing.
Also have a second uplift species, a fungoid race I have confined to their homeworld because they're mostly useless as pops. What I've modified them to FUCKING EXCEL at is leadership. They got the leader caste trait from the mod along with their uplift trait of +1 skill level. I then added Talented so that they FUCKING START AT MAX GODDAMN LEVEL.
Now if I could only fucking GET some of the bastards as leaders...only have an admiral so far.
Post by: Sirus on May 22, 2016, 10:00:31 pm
Okay, the definitive combat mod setup for now is out:...in English, please? I'm not even entirely sure how to add extra names to a namelist mod; damned thing is locked up in a rar file and I don't want to unpack it for fear of breaking something.
ZBeautiful Battles
BB Compatible Ship Improvements
BB Compatible Rangefinder
Those three do everything that needs doing. All you have to do is open up the 00_ship_sizes files for the latter two and make them compatible with each other by adding Rangefinder's additional module slot to the four ship types for SI and changing the values for the mining, research, and outpost stations which SI sets in the Rangefinder file (lowering base cost, adding scaling cost based on components, and allowing them to be designed).
Get the decreased ship scale mod on top of that and you're set for some fancy, functional battles.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 22, 2016, 10:35:14 pm
Navigate to C:>Users>Your Name>Documents>Paradox Interactive>Stellaris>workshop>content>[numbered folder]Okay, the definitive combat mod setup for now is out:...in English, please? I'm not even entirely sure how to add extra names to a namelist mod; damned thing is locked up in a rar file and I don't want to unpack it for fear of breaking something.
ZBeautiful Battles
BB Compatible Ship Improvements
BB Compatible Rangefinder
Those three do everything that needs doing. All you have to do is open up the 00_ship_sizes files for the latter two and make them compatible with each other by adding Rangefinder's additional module slot to the four ship types for SI and changing the values for the mining, research, and outpost stations which SI sets in the Rangefinder file (lowering base cost, adding scaling cost based on components, and allowing them to be designed).
Get the decreased ship scale mod on top of that and you're set for some fancy, functional battles.
Each of the folders in there is a workshop mod you've downloaded. Find the ones you need to modify by opening each until you happen across them. Use WinRar/7Zip/whatever to open the zipped mod folders. Locate the files which you need to make compatible in each mod archive-in this case, just "00_ship_sizes.txt". Open each mod's version of it in Notepad++ or whatever, scan through them for differences, and overwrite the vanilla values in each that are overridden by modded values in the other. In this case you're just adding one line to the four ship types (from Rangefinder) to SI, and a few value changes from SI to Rangefinder. Save each file once you're done, run the game, you're set.
You could also make a custom merged mod, but that'd be more work.
Post by: Neonivek on May 22, 2016, 11:58:49 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on May 23, 2016, 12:18:15 am
Post by: Majestic7 on May 23, 2016, 01:15:48 am
Post by: Cruxador on May 23, 2016, 02:09:52 am
One thing that currently hurts the game is that after you play enough you kind of realize "Rare tech" is not only nothing of the sort (I kind of wanted to be a special snowflake but no... everyone pretty much ends the game with the same rare techs) but for some semi-mandatoryThe problem is that there's too few techs, so you eventually deplete the deck. Not even that slowly, if you're keeping lean. It's a problem that will be gradually fixed as they add more techs to the game, although some rare stuff could definitely be rarer than it is. But between developments and mods, it will definitely be great in a year or two. Like with most of Stellaris.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 23, 2016, 02:21:23 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 23, 2016, 02:27:48 am
I'd like it a lot if researching a rare tech actually closed off some research paths while giving you access to more specialized techs in the same vein. It would go a long way to helping me feel like my nation has an individual identity.Oh yeah, I saw a suggestion kind of like this for... Civilization, I think it was. Having tech trees branch out so you can specialise down different routes that effectively achieve the same thing but can be balanced differently.
I think it'd be really cool, myself.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 23, 2016, 02:30:01 am
Post by: tryrar on May 23, 2016, 04:12:24 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 23, 2016, 05:31:30 am
I'd like it a lot if researching a rare tech actually closed off some research paths while giving you access to more specialized techs in the same vein. It would go a long way to helping me feel like my nation has an individual identity.
Sort of true for Psionics. But it's only a couple of techs deep, and they're not very compelling.
Post by: Neonivek on May 23, 2016, 05:53:31 am
Ethos is supposed to be that branching. For example, psionic techs are very likely to be available for spiritualist but almost impossible for materialists to get. I agree that there should be more rare techs dependent on the ethos, government form and perhaps even biological traits of the main species.
Yeah I keep hearing that. Except not only is psionics one of the "Required techs" for the late game... But my friend who plays a fanatic materialist has always got it.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 23, 2016, 06:02:21 am
Ethos is supposed to be that branching. For example, psionic techs are very likely to be available for spiritualist but almost impossible for materialists to get. I agree that there should be more rare techs dependent on the ethos, government form and perhaps even biological traits of the main species.
Yeah I keep hearing that. Except not only is psionics one of the "Required techs" for the late game... But my friend who plays a fanatic materialist has always got it.
How psionics is required tech?
Post by: Neonivek on May 23, 2016, 06:04:36 am
Post by: andrea on May 23, 2016, 06:10:17 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 23, 2016, 06:23:57 am
Post by: Majestic7 on May 23, 2016, 06:28:38 am
Post by: Neonivek on May 23, 2016, 06:48:56 am
It's pretty good, but I wouldn't call it "required".
It becomes a huge slog to attempt to beat the game without it.
Post by: Sartain on May 23, 2016, 07:48:58 am
I'd like it a lot if researching a rare tech actually closed off some research paths while giving you access to more specialized techs in the same vein. It would go a long way to helping me feel like my nation has an individual identity.
Sort of true for Psionics. But it's only a couple of techs deep, and they're not very compelling.
I don't know, the Ministry Of Benevolence is pretty compelling.
Post by: Neonivek on May 23, 2016, 08:11:58 am
I'd like it a lot if researching a rare tech actually closed off some research paths while giving you access to more specialized techs in the same vein. It would go a long way to helping me feel like my nation has an individual identity.
Sort of true for Psionics. But it's only a couple of techs deep, and they're not very compelling.
I don't know, the Ministry Of Benevolence is pretty compelling.
Psionics has a few things in its favor. I admit I WISH there was more to psionics (it is rather disinteresting as a whole to be honest).
I also wish the ultimate Drive didn't require psionics... because that makes it mandatory.
I mean you can reasonably do the game without the Psionic Super Armies and be perfectly happy. But trying to beat the game without the Ultimate Drive? It can add several hours to the gameplay.
Post by: lastverb on May 23, 2016, 08:13:09 am
I don't know, the Ministry Of Benevolence is pretty compelling.
It's not a psi tech branch.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 23, 2016, 09:09:59 am
Post by: PTTG?? on May 23, 2016, 09:10:43 am
Oho, I just got a rare random event that has some real snarky shots fired at climate change deniers.
Which one's that?
Post by: Flying Dice on May 23, 2016, 10:03:42 am
Oho, I just got a rare random event that has some real snarky shots fired at climate change deniers.
Which one's that?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: lastverb on May 23, 2016, 11:06:15 am
Post by: Greiger on May 23, 2016, 11:10:12 am
On one hand I'm amused. On the other hand, of the 5 x-com games I've played, it does not end well for the aliens. So my space ferrets are considering stopping the anal probing.
Post by: Egan_BW on May 23, 2016, 11:35:17 am
of the 5 x-com games I've played, it does not end well for the aliens.you must be a god
Post by: JimboM12 on May 23, 2016, 11:42:45 am
In this state of somewhat calm status quo, a giant alien horde spawned on the border of my neutral rivals empire, quickly making them the 2nd most powerful military. They expended all their current ships to hold the horde and are currently in a constant skirmish with the invaders while the rest of the galaxy does its normal fight each other thing and I sit and research the awesome late game capital weapons (currently the Arc thingy and the Kinetic Battery).
So with this going on, some of the neutral border counties see whats going on with the horde of alien invaders and actually ask to become my vassals. I didn't think that could happen, but then again, every other nation other then my rival is considered "Inferior" or "Pathetic" in terms of military power now. And my rival was "Equivalent" in everything except technology until this happened, and now their fleet strength went from equal down to inferior.
So while I consider the diplomacy options as rather barebones, the AI behind it seems okay; to actually consider their own power to their neighbors and galactic threats and makes decisions accordingly shows some promise with future DLC and modding.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 23, 2016, 11:51:29 am
Post by: umiman on May 23, 2016, 12:20:39 pm
There are some fun quirks in those random events/anomalies. I really liked the one about Russel's teapot. Especially when on 2nd game I actually noticed that it is longest event (in research time) ingame... by A LOT.Oh so that's what that was supposed to be.
I noticed there are two endings to that event.
Post by: JimboM12 on May 23, 2016, 12:26:09 pm
Eh don't give unmodded ai that much credit, everyone loving player under endgame threat is hardcoded. Ppl are already exployting it by keeping the endgame menaces confined, battered but alive
Well, they did hate me as I as a xenophobic militaristic empire where xenos had no rights but if everyone hopping on the bandwagon is hardcoded, that sucks.
Post by: lastverb on May 23, 2016, 02:48:01 pm
edit: They do fire those PDs on enemy torpedoes only after they get to point-blank which is effin stupid for ships with 2 torpedoes, 1 pd and defensive computer to do.
Post by: jocan2003 on May 23, 2016, 03:06:43 pm
Start in my homesystem, survey it and only a +2 socio research location, no other system in my influence zone... thats a good start.Couple goes by, get a gaia planet quite close so i nabbed it, but having spent years without being able to harvest ressource i fell behind bad.... Got roflstomped by an empire who hated me and must have been one of these empire who has a head start bevause his tech was much bigger than mine and had a shitton of corvettes...
Suffice to say i lost my first game quite fast. time to restart.
Post by: Teneb on May 23, 2016, 04:03:54 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 23, 2016, 04:05:08 pm
Hey, does anyone know what "differing war philosophies" mean? Can't join an alliance because of the -20 relations it gives.iirc it's a militant vs pacifist thing, or a bug. I forget which
Post by: Teneb on May 23, 2016, 04:05:53 pm
Well, that's weird if it's pacifist vs militant, since I am neither (though my neighbours are all fanatic pacifists (execpt one who is regular pacifist, but still has the modifier)).Hey, does anyone know what "differing war philosophies" mean? Can't join an alliance because of the -20 relations it gives.iirc it's a militant vs pacifist thing, or a bug. I forget which
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 23, 2016, 04:14:51 pm
Turns out it is indeed a bug. You can probably overcome it with some of the other trade deals like civilian access.Well, that's weird if it's pacifist vs militant, since I am neither (though my neighbours are all fanatic pacifists (execpt one who is regular pacifist, but still has the modifier)).Hey, does anyone know what "differing war philosophies" mean? Can't join an alliance because of the -20 relations it gives.iirc it's a militant vs pacifist thing, or a bug. I forget which
Post by: Flying Dice on May 23, 2016, 04:27:06 pm
There are some fun quirks in those random events/anomalies. I really liked the one about Russel's teapot. Especially when on 2nd game I actually noticed that it is longest event (in research time) ingame... by A LOT.Oh so that's what that was supposed to be.
I noticed there are two endings to that event.
Are there? I've only ever gotten the "Ah, fuck it" one that gives you a decent chunk of influence after a painfully long research time.
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 23, 2016, 05:20:47 pm
Post by: BFEL on May 23, 2016, 05:50:53 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on May 23, 2016, 06:12:48 pm
Post by: Iituem on May 23, 2016, 06:16:19 pm
Adds in two new buildings (plus three upgrades for each, eight techs and a new resource), the dehydrator and rehydrator. The dehydrator takes food and compresses it into 'stored food' (read: dry, tasteless nutrient bricks) which unlike food is shared between worlds. Hungry worlds can use the rehydrator to convert that stored food back into edible meals.
If anyone wants to test this out, would appreciate feedback on how/whether it works. Still bugs to iron out with it, naturally, and god only knows how sectors will react.
Post by: BFEL on May 23, 2016, 06:38:15 pm
Oh, and to clarify, "differing war philosophies" has apparently nothing to do with ethos. It shows up if you've been at war recently.That's funny, because it also shows up for me when I've NEVER BEEN IN A WAR AT ALL EVER.
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 23, 2016, 06:40:02 pm
hence why I said it's a bugOh, and to clarify, "differing war philosophies" has apparently nothing to do with ethos. It shows up if you've been at war recently.That's funny, because it also shows up for me when I've NEVER BEEN IN A WAR AT ALL EVER.
Post by: jocan2003 on May 23, 2016, 06:41:56 pm
In response to those wishing we could set up agricultural worlds and ship food across the galaxy to support our Coruscant clones, I have written the Bread Baskets Mod (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=690067609), which does just that.Ooouuuuhhhhh inam so going to test that!
Adds in two new buildings (plus three upgrades for each, eight techs and a new resource), the dehydrator and rehydrator. The dehydrator takes food and compresses it into 'stored food' (read: dry, tasteless nutrient bricks) which unlike food is shared between worlds. Hungry worlds can use the rehydrator to convert that stored food back into edible meals.
If anyone wants to test this out, would appreciate feedback on how/whether it works. Still bugs to iron out with it, naturally, and god only knows how sectors will react.
Post by: BFEL on May 23, 2016, 07:12:14 pm
and god only knows how sectors will react.INB4 all planets are composed of half dehydrators and half rehydrators in an infinite loop.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 23, 2016, 07:14:18 pm
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=684945619 (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=684945619)hence why I said it's a bugOh, and to clarify, "differing war philosophies" has apparently nothing to do with ethos. It shows up if you've been at war recently.That's funny, because it also shows up for me when I've NEVER BEEN IN A WAR AT ALL EVER.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 23, 2016, 07:15:22 pm
Eh don't give unmodded ai that much credit, everyone loving player under endgame threat is hardcoded. Ppl are already exployting it by keeping the endgame menaces confined, battered but aliveRight now I've got my Unbidden contained and observed as my Universe's eye of terror. Due to where they arrived there is no easy gateway for them to exit their galactic spiral through the south, so they must go north - into all the Empires that hate me. Every time I feel their gaze upon my Southern Empire I delete all of my Fortresses to let the Unbidden harvest them and thin their numbers a bit, and when I feel they've had enough, send in a pacifying fleet and reconstruct the Fortress line to close the gaps once more and let the northern species recover. Since I've reverse engineered their tech, there seems little point in destroying them for good. Containment is expensive but... Having a doosmday in a bottle is too much fun! If anyone destroys my Empire, they unleash the Unbidden upon them as revenge :D
One of the more entertaining things is when you use the console to trigger all 3 crises... Whoever wins, the species lose.
Post by: BFEL on May 23, 2016, 09:04:07 pm
Yeah, those guys are about to get FUCKING WRECKED.
Which is actually pretty good for me, because once they get FUCKING WRECKED, the Unbidden will pretty much have to go through the Khessam, I.E. the Fanatical Purifiers who are the current strongest race in the galaxy. Who also happen to be RIGHT GODDAMN NEXT TO ME.
But now they have other problems :P
I'll pounce and liberate a bunch of their planets after they get FUCKING WRECKED.
Post by: BFEL on May 23, 2016, 09:35:57 pm
BTW, I'm the SECOND most powerful race atm. And if ground combat has any bearing vs. the Unbidden then they're fucking SCREWED because I'm SPEHSS MUHRIN PSYCHIC DRAGONS. With Planetary shields and Hyper Shields to reduce the effect of orbital bombardies.
Worst case I can turtle to a hilarious degree while building strength but like I said, they'll have to slog through the Fanatics first.
Post by: PTTG?? on May 23, 2016, 09:46:28 pm
Instead of wormhole gates being able to send and receive over a given area, these gates only receive, and they work at any range. This race has a very, very slow warp drive to go with it.
As a result, they expand no faster than their slow warp drives allow, but within their space, they move extremely quickly.
Also, I kind of want a taller tech tree. There's what, five tiers of power plant? Twenty or so could work, with similar scaling of the other techs. I want to still be partway through the tech tree even 300 years into a game.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 23, 2016, 09:51:49 pm
Post by: Man of Paper on May 23, 2016, 10:10:13 pm
The galaxy was limited to hyperdrive (seriously like my favorite thing to do now) so I've been able to lock down and build defenses on my planets while I outresearch everyone else thanks to dedicated research planets and the goldmine of social tech that is the stone age primitive planet. I wound up allying myself with the faction neighboring me on the inner arm in an effort to lock down the only point in my empire that led to the patchwork of empires south of me. We opened our borders and now my materialistic empire has a large number of agriculturally adept fungoids to man the hydroponic facilities.
It was just before my first war that I noticed a possible problem with the current state of affairs in my galaxy: fully one third of the empires had joined a single federation. I was part of a three-way alliance, and everyone else was independent (including both of my neighbors to the east, luckily). My standing among the primary combined powers in the galaxy was balanced on a razor's edge - half of them hated me, but the others were good friends. Of course the Federation president had the worst relationship with me, and so I went about placing an embassy within his empire.
Relations with my closest eastern neighbor broke down and they declared war on us. It was a mistake they regretted, as my fleet and those of my two allies steamrolled through their empire and annihilated any military capacity they had. These birdmen were vassalized.
Once I was able to I began to integrate them into my empire. The empire that stood east of my vassal, my only other nearby neighbor in the arm (excluding the isolationists), declared war on my vassal, and so my fleet was called in along with my allies' once more. Though they put up a good fight, taking out nearly half of my capital ships and most of my screening fleet, they too became my vassals. With my immediate space secured, I opted out of my alliance and began a full campaign to align myself with the massive federation of mostly militant states.
Currently I stand as the peak of individual power in an empire in all fields, barring that of the Fallen Empire. Relations with the Federation are on the rise, and I still hold good relations with my old allies. Politically at this point I have no enemies. The first empire I conquered has been integrated and I've begun work on the second. My immediate plans include joining the Federation and building up a massive fleet for an assault on the ring worlds of the Fallen Empire in an effort to fully secure my half of the galactic arm.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 23, 2016, 10:25:18 pm
Also, I kind of want a taller tech tree. There's what, five tiers of power plant? Twenty or so could work, with similar scaling of the other techs. I want to still be partway through the tech tree even 300 years into a game.
That's doable with mods, I'd think. People are already adding new ship modules. All you'd need would be someone willing to do all of the legwork of creating all of the new tech file entries, art assets, statlines, &c. You'd probably also need to add a scaling like that for the +HP module, otherwise everything with shield-pen would be massively OP 'cause high-tech in those lines could poof BBs.
Would probably also be good to try to include a dreadnought-tier ship with more slots on the three sections that we're limited to.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 23, 2016, 11:28:58 pm
Post by: Glloyd on May 24, 2016, 01:35:18 am
Coincidentally I just had the Unbidden proc in my galaxy. They spawned on the leftmost spiral, in the middle of the "Federation of Pathetic Militaries Who Teamed Up to Keep the Fanatical Purifiers from Raping Them"
Yeah, those guys are about to get FUCKING WRECKED.
Which is actually pretty good for me, because once they get FUCKING WRECKED, the Unbidden will pretty much have to go through the Khessam, I.E. the Fanatical Purifiers who are the current strongest race in the galaxy. Who also happen to be RIGHT GODDAMN NEXT TO ME.
But now they have other problems :P
I'll pounce and liberate a bunch of their planets after they get FUCKING WRECKED.
Jokes on you, the AI won't attack them and the AI defences won't hurt the Unbidden at all because the event is broken as fuck. The portal will also keep spawning them as long as its open, and waiting will only make it worse because it'll take you 1000000000 years IRL to clear the Unbidden out at that point because you'll have to send a fleet to every single sector they've touched because again, the AI will never touch them and the event is broken as fuck.
The lategame in Stellaris is garbage right now, and the next two patches won't fix that. There's no replayability in this game until the late/endgame isn't trash.
Post by: Noel.se on May 24, 2016, 09:30:13 am
Highlights for 1.1 include UI improvements and a possible sector AI fix.
Post by: lastverb on May 24, 2016, 10:09:51 am
I just noticed some bs. Earlier on, on lower levels i have seen my PD doing great. Now i just looked why my fleet got murdered by AI - not a single pd shot at torpedoes. I keep 1 guardian PD (t3) on each corvette and was being shot by armored torpedoes (t2, kinetic ones) of different sizes. My delay fleet of 20 corvettes was massacred by really low ammount of torpedoes before they close in without a single pd shot fired (neither graphically nor even pd listed in hit rate). The enemy however did shot down all my t3 torpedoes by using t2 pd. It annoyed me to the point i just pressed esc>exit to desktop as soon as i noticed the same thing happening in battle with my main fleet. At least lances and unbidden disintegrators make short work of anything.
edit: They do fire those PDs on enemy torpedoes only after they get to point-blank which is effin stupid for ships with 2 torpedoes, 1 pd and defensive computer to do.
I did waste a shitload of time investigating it and discovered a very nasty exploit. Strike craft don't move away from their carrier. In vanilla they have <10 range so it seems useless. However, while there are strike crafts alive in enemy fleet, your PD WILL NOT SHOOT ANYTHING ELSE. That means fighters/bombers are actually HARD COUNTER to PD.
If anyone plays multi against those pesky evasion stackers, just put a some strike craft module in your torp fleet. Evasion stacker going berserker on any form of communication? Priceless.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 24, 2016, 10:29:06 am
Post by: Sonlirain on May 24, 2016, 10:39:45 am
Scale?
Battles?
Interactivity?
Post by: Majestic7 on May 24, 2016, 10:59:42 am
Post by: umiman on May 24, 2016, 11:31:40 am
While Distant Worlds...well, it won't improve anymore.It doesn't even have mods. =|
Post by: PTTG?? on May 24, 2016, 11:44:34 am
The lategame in Stellaris is garbage right now, and the next two patches won't fix that. There's no replayability in this game until the late/endgame isn't trash.
Quote from: Dev Diary
+Fixes for AI in end game crises.
Heh.
Post by: Broken on May 24, 2016, 11:45:42 am
(http://s33.postimg.org/7ldrpadxb/2016_05_24_1.png)
Maintenance positive fleets! You don't have to fear the dreaded fleet cap anymore, going over it just means that you earn even more money!
Spoiler: "Explanation" (click to show/hide)
Post by: Egan_BW on May 24, 2016, 11:50:00 am
Post by: Drakale on May 24, 2016, 12:42:50 pm
Edit: Also, apparently I can make Android Xenomorphs. Science works in mysterious ways. Maybe they are cyberdemon type things.
Post by: Zangi on May 24, 2016, 01:50:37 pm
O.o The forums of the publisher. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=795While Distant Worlds...well, it won't improve anymore.It doesn't even have mods. =|
Or do you mean something more substantial then what they have there?
Post by: umiman on May 24, 2016, 01:55:17 pm
Yeah, like a big one.O.o The forums of the publisher. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=795While Distant Worlds...well, it won't improve anymore.It doesn't even have mods. =|
Or do you mean something more substantial then what they have there?
Post by: Biowraith on May 24, 2016, 02:00:07 pm
Edit: Also, apparently I can make Android Xenomorphs. Science works in mysterious ways. Maybe they are cyberdemon type things.Don't stop there. Make Android Xenomorph Psi-Warriors.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 24, 2016, 02:23:05 pm
Edit: Also, apparently I can make Android Xenomorphs. Science works in mysterious ways. Maybe they are cyberdemon type things.
You can make robotic gene warriors so... Yeah. It's a thing. An extremely silly thing.
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 24, 2016, 03:19:12 pm
You can clone army your droids too I believe! And make robotic versions of titanic life from that one planetary specialEdit: Also, apparently I can make Android Xenomorphs. Science works in mysterious ways. Maybe they are cyberdemon type things.
You can make robotic gene warriors so... Yeah. It's a thing. An extremely silly thing.
Post by: Drakale on May 24, 2016, 03:29:02 pm
You can clone army your droids too I believe! And make robotic versions of titanic life from that one planetary specialEdit: Also, apparently I can make Android Xenomorphs. Science works in mysterious ways. Maybe they are cyberdemon type things.
You can make robotic gene warriors so... Yeah. It's a thing. An extremely silly thing.
At least robotic titanic monsters kinda make sense. Maybe that's how the AT-AT was born.
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 24, 2016, 03:40:42 pm
But it begs the question why I needed to find dinosaurs before I could build dinosaur robots. Why not just make the big robots to start?You can clone army your droids too I believe! And make robotic versions of titanic life from that one planetary specialEdit: Also, apparently I can make Android Xenomorphs. Science works in mysterious ways. Maybe they are cyberdemon type things.
You can make robotic gene warriors so... Yeah. It's a thing. An extremely silly thing.
At least robotic titanic monsters kinda make sense. Maybe that's how the AT-AT was born.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 24, 2016, 04:54:01 pm
Decreased damage on S weapons (except the alien salvage ones, since those were shit already, and also excluding PD weapons)
Increased damage on L weapons
Dramatically increased range on missiles
Increased range on lances, kinetic artillery, arc emitters, energy torpedoes
Decreased range on torpedoes
Mass Drivers given 50% extra shield damage (to match their lying fucking flavor text)
Kinetic artillery given 100% extra shield damage
--
I intend to change the Rangefinder computers such that all of them have the "orbit and fire" behavior rather than the "run away" behavior, have one at the longest range have the "run away" behavior (for carriers), and add more so that missile and heavy L weapon boats can snipe from farther out. No idea if any of that's possible since I haven't dug into the files yet.
If anyone's using those mods and is interested in the changes, I can toss a link your way once I'm finished and have them tested. The general intent of my changes is to make long-range combat not only possible but viable, to give missiles a real advantage to make them stand out against torpedoes and compensate for them having a hard counter, to make non-autocannon kinetics not suck, and to make large ships carrying large weapons feel legitimately awesome. It also gives purpose back to Corvettes as something beyond ablative armor, since their speed might be necessary to chase down carriers and missile boats.
Post by: Sonlirain on May 24, 2016, 05:22:31 pm
Edit: Also, apparently I can make Android Xenomorphs. Science works in mysterious ways. Maybe they are cyberdemon type things.
You can make robotic gene warriors so... Yeah. It's a thing. An extremely silly thing.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 24, 2016, 05:34:43 pm
So... can i get a rough comparison between this and Distant Worlds?Scale? quite small, game has plenty limiters (energy, navy size, planet count maluses)
Battles? boring and prone to one winning true strategy
Interactivity? that's quite good actually. anomalies are more interesting and nuanced for as long as you read them. otherwise expect an unending list of "trinkets of +100 research". even relicts are lame, compared to capitals found in distant worlds which really are game changing (where is not uncommon to find caps with 3x the shield and 10x the firepower)
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 24, 2016, 05:37:35 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 24, 2016, 06:12:55 pm
Android xenomorphs are not as silly as they might seem.
I am talking about using robot pops for gene warrior armies. According to the game these are, "Genetically enhanced super soldiers. Recruits are typically chosen from the elite of the conventional military forces. These then undergo extensive gene therapy, and are made larger, stronger, and faster than their peers." So these aren't android xenomorphs. These are robots genetically enhanced to be super soldiers. Genetically enhanced robots. Probably riding xeno calvary. :v
Post by: Iituem on May 24, 2016, 06:34:54 pm
If not, she stirs in her sleep and the resulting destruction will kill (read: I purge) two thirds of the homeworld population.
As I have swiftly discovered, the Zolmac reproduce at about half the rate of the purges. Suddenly my exploration strategy has radically changed. We don't have time to survey every system, planet by planet. Instead the expeditionary fleet goes out, does a visual scan of each system (i.e. looking out the window) to see if any planets look like they might bear life, then sends the scientist in to survey that planet and only that planet before zipping on to the next world.
We really, really need to find some primitives to sacrifice, or we won't last the decade.
Post by: Sonlirain on May 24, 2016, 06:38:28 pm
Genetically enhanced robots. Probably riding xeno calvary. :vWell a good explanation would be your soldiers being basically brains in jars locked inside a mechanical body. The gene therapy enhances the brain and the body is basically a robot.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 24, 2016, 06:43:16 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 24, 2016, 06:55:04 pm
Then Paradox Interactive people are in the crossfire all: "Please relax your mammaries everyone, we pulled it down to avoid political shitfest, y u do dis now? Please stop arguing and buy more DLC"
But the arguing will never stop, because we have not finished researching the Ministry of Benevolence
Post by: Vendayn on May 24, 2016, 07:01:49 pm
Think Stellaris is worth buying in its current state? It give me 20 dollars leftover to spend on something else. Or should I wait for some DLC?
Looks really fun thus far, and my favorite youtuber (kottabos) is playing it. And been looking forward to it for a while. But I know when I bought EU4 at release, it was pretty barebones...but I still really enjoyed it and was fun when first DLC came out how much better it became from just that one DLC. So I got to see EU4 progress to an awesome game that I got more hours on than any other game lol
Post by: JumpingJack on May 24, 2016, 07:03:21 pm
words
Ah well, there was going to be a blowout no matter what they did. Not that it matters, as someone will probably reupload the mod at a later date.
Post by: Teneb on May 24, 2016, 07:05:56 pm
It already had a mirror in moddb before being taken down. Yet this mirror doesn't have the multiculturalism bit.words
Ah well, there was going to be a blowout no matter what they did. Not that it matters, as someone will probably reupload the mod at a later date.
Post by: Neonivek on May 24, 2016, 07:09:26 pm
Think Stellaris is worth buying in its current state? It give me 20 dollars leftover to spend on something else. Or should I wait for some DLC?
While I think it is worth buying in its current state.
Wait for some DLC. It has a lot of egregious aspects right now and I feel like I like it in spite of how bad it is.
Post by: PTTG?? on May 24, 2016, 07:28:51 pm
Think Stellaris is worth buying in its current state? It give me 20 dollars leftover to spend on something else. Or should I wait for some DLC?
While I think it is worth buying in its current state.
Wait for some DLC. It has a lot of egregious aspects right now and I feel like I like it in spite of how bad it is.
Well, to be honest, I wish I'd borrowed Stellaris from a friend and spent $40 on Overwatch instead.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 24, 2016, 07:34:00 pm
Post by: Teneb on May 24, 2016, 07:39:24 pm
Infinite fucking DLCThe galaxy is vast, and full of DLC.
Post by: BFEL on May 24, 2016, 08:12:34 pm
I thought he was proposing a DLC about unending copulation.Infinite fucking DLCThe galaxy is vast, and full of DLC.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 24, 2016, 08:22:27 pm
The default attack_move behavior for Defensive (vanilla) and long range (Rangefinders) computers is "follow", but their preferred_attack range is set at "max", and their return to formation distance is almost always markedly shorter than their maximum weapon range. So what I'm thinking is happening is that when that happens the ship just gets locked into conflicting orders-they're simultaneously trying to move to maximum weapon range, follow their target (or flee if the enemy is approaching), and return to the fleet.
So what I've done is ensure that there's a Rangefinder with a return to fleet distance 5 units farther out than the maximum range of every weapon, as well as changing the attack_move behavior to "orbit". I'm hoping that that means that ships with long-ranged weapons will successfully sit out at long range, orbiting the battle, and firing continuously, while also returning to the main action if they manage to wander too far away.
I also attempted to address the problem with the bugged Aggressive computer stats. As of right now it looks like these ship modifiers don't work, regardless of whether you attach them to components or ship_sizes: ship_weapon_range_mult; ship_weapon_damage; ship_fire_rate_mult. What I've done is set up the stat computers so that they all give utility bonuses. The default one gives +5% combat speed and +5 evasion; the Aggressive ones give +20% combat speed, +5% accuracy, and +5 evasion at tier one and double that at tier two; the Defensive ones give +10% HP, +10 evasion, and +2.5% shield regen at tier one and double that at tier two; the sentient combat computer gives +50% combat speed, +15 Evasion, +10% accuracy, and +5% shield health; the precog combat computer gives +20 evasion, +20% weapon accuracy, and 10% combat speed.
I don't doubt that the stat computers will need balancing, but that helps delineate roles and I want to be sure that everything works to begin with. It's a pretty straight progression from AggT1 to sentient; defensive forks off into favoring the big tanky brawlers (as cruisers and BBs already have buffed HP values); precog plays well with skirmishers and snipers. Unfortunately there's not much to benefit missile boats apart from the pure defensive ones since the DPS-related values don't work, but hopefully that'll change--and they've got enough of an advantage being able to eventually lob missiles from well beyond anything else's engagement range. The +40% combat speed on AggT2 and +50% on sentient is necessary, I think, so that people can set up hunter-killer Corvettes that will actually be able to catch missile boats and carriers, even ones that mount the same computer. You could also drop it on a destroyer mounting a particle lance or something to get better DPS. Maybe pair lance and artillery destroyer classes, or use torpedo corvettes.
Basically my overarching goal is both to comprehensively fix combat balance and ensure that there's good reasons to diversify your weapon selection and fleet composition instead of just spamming the best couple things.
Off to test now.
words
Ah well, there was going to be a blowout no matter what they did. Not that it matters, as someone will probably reupload the mod at a later date.
Yeah, I saw trouble brewing the moment I noticed that set of mods. I also knew shit would only be thrown over the yuro one.
Post by: BFEL on May 24, 2016, 08:31:14 pm
Way to go dude.
Post by: IronyOwl on May 24, 2016, 08:41:16 pm
While I don't regret my purchase, it feels like Stellaris is half a game right now. Which sounds vague and cliche, but seriously: It's a great game until you start noticing all the voids, not just where game could be or where you'd want it to be, but where it really looks like something was supposed to go and the devs wanted to put something in but didn't have time.Think Stellaris is worth buying in its current state? It give me 20 dollars leftover to spend on something else. Or should I wait for some DLC?
While I think it is worth buying in its current state.
Wait for some DLC. It has a lot of egregious aspects right now and I feel like I like it in spite of how bad it is.
Well, to be honest, I wish I'd borrowed Stellaris from a friend and spent $40 on Overwatch instead.
I don't doubt the DLC is going to be amazing and without number, but I'll have to second that it'd probably be more efficient to wait for it to become a good game than to buy it now, love it for a while, and then piece by piece realize that vast swathes of it are still under (possibly expensive) construction.
Should've kept their plausible deniability by staying out of it. Now everything they don't remove has implicit approval.words
Ah well, there was going to be a blowout no matter what they did. Not that it matters, as someone will probably reupload the mod at a later date.
Yeah, I saw trouble brewing the moment I noticed that set of mods. I also knew shit would only be thrown over the yuro one.
Until this thread I never realized how awesome Flying Dice is.Haven't tried them, but he also seems to be personifying the "it took modders 45 minutes to fix your broken shit with modding tools, what happened?" issue. Like I said earlier, there's areas of this game where they seem to have run out of time or made some mistakes, and there's areas of this game where they didn't seem to have given a single shit. Those latter areas are collectively known as naval combat.
Way to go dude.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 24, 2016, 08:54:03 pm
No clue why those three weapon modifiers don't work, either. Probably not defined properly somewhere, I might go looking later.
Post by: Vendayn on May 24, 2016, 09:08:48 pm
I remember when I bought EU4, that was a major complaint (pretty sure it was EU4, maybe CK2? Both?) and I still had a lot of fun with it. I remember a ton of people complaining about EU4/CK2 and how buggy it was, and pretty sure one or both of them people complained about unfinished stuff too, or stuff that needed a lot of work.
I'll probably just wait to spend that 59.99 and see how things go. A patch is coming out supposedly for Stellaris today (or is it already out?) and a 2nd one after that. I'll probably see how the game is after the 2nd patch. There isn't anything else I want to spend money on though. And warhammer total war (was kinda looking forward to it) is not enough diplomacy/economy/espionage focused for me (granted every total war is focused on battles lol). Plus that take all the money my friend put in my steam account lol. Maybe Ark, but meh. Or the fallout 4 DLC, but I'd rather wait for all the DLC in one nice pack.
Post by: Teneb on May 24, 2016, 09:38:06 pm
Post by: Cruxador on May 24, 2016, 11:35:34 pm
Sorry to continue this thread, but what the heck is this Sweden yes/no thing?This is an easily googlable thing.
So, is the main complaint that there is a lot of things not finished, and pretty much left for DLC?There's actually going to be a fair amount of patching before they get into DLC, and it will be reasonably finished in like a year even without any DLC purchased.
Quote
I'll probably see how the game is after the 2nd patch.This is a wise course of action.
Post by: Culise on May 24, 2016, 11:39:52 pm
So, it's a Youtube video about local variations in the Swedish word for "yes" from Västerbotten on north? I can't see the fuss, but I'm sure you know better than I; after all, it's so easily Googled that it couldn't possibly mean anything else. :PSorry to continue this thread, but what the heck is this Sweden yes/no thing?This is an easily googlable thing.
((And yes, I know what's being referred to. For greatorder's benefit, it's a meme that's basically used in mockery of both multiculturalism and gender politics, especially in the context of Sweden, which is viewed as being "overly accepting" of foreign cultures; you can see why it's a bit of a hot-button political issue on the Intertubes between things like Tumblerites, MRAs, and the such. I just don't like it when people substitute blind arrogance for education.))
Post by: Majestic7 on May 25, 2016, 12:20:00 am
Post by: Flying Dice on May 25, 2016, 12:46:21 am
At least I fixed the poor keywording in the BB-compatible variant of Rangefinders.
But yeah, it turns out that the combat computers aren't capable of handling some or all of the stat bonuses I was trying to apply to them. As in, they disappear from the ship design view and the rest of those required utility modules are fucked up. Gonna experiment and see what I can add to them, and maybe try to find out how to fix the bugged DPS modifiers.
Hey FD, could you get us a link to this mod whenever you got something out?I'm kinda hesitant to release it as a standalone since it's built pretty heavily on others' work. I'll probably only put it up as an explicit compilation+modification of the mods I'm working with, with my own touches included, and that only if I get permission from the authors involved. If that doesn't swing, I'll at least host a dropbox for whoever around here wants it.
Won't be able to combat-test until I get the stat computers set up properly, but here's some teasers.
(http://i.imgur.com/auG8EQ2.png)
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 25, 2016, 01:01:15 am
Post by: Flying Dice on May 25, 2016, 01:16:10 am
Alright. All that's left is combat trials to make sure the behaviors work properly.
Post by: tryrar on May 25, 2016, 01:21:24 am
Post by: Flying Dice on May 25, 2016, 01:35:51 am
Post by: lastverb on May 25, 2016, 03:37:05 am
Also, did you find a way to make pd stop prioritizing strike crafts which are long outside their range?
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 25, 2016, 03:41:54 am
Hello modder! Were you trying to fix strike crafts not by changing their range of fire? I have some small success with changing behavior to charge/follow with ridiculous range to return to formation (keeping engage range to 4.0). However half of the ships still don't release strike crafts (they are still near carrier) and if carrier doesn't have other long range weapon with def computer (max range behavior) it still tries to ram the enemy.
Also, did you find a way to make pd stop prioritizing strike crafts which are long outside their range?
you need also to change the hangar definitions to increase their range, but when I did that even if strikecraft were released afar they stayed near the carrier and shoot lasers from ridiculous distance.
Post by: lastverb on May 25, 2016, 05:15:47 am
you need also to change the hangar definitions to increase their range, but when I did that even if strikecraft were released afar they stayed near the carrier and shoot lasers from ridiculous distance.
The point is I didn't and some of strike crafts did go 60 range to enemy fleet and started shooting from their range 6-8 weapons. SOME. And I DO have same behavior for fighters and bombers.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 25, 2016, 05:17:33 am
Post by: Flying Dice on May 25, 2016, 07:00:05 am
And yes, scout and fighter weapons are explicitly noted as being PD weapons; I haven't looked that carefully at strike craft behavior, but I suspect they're intentionally kept close to carriers, as they're supposed to intercept missiles and bombers.
Honestly I'm just really fucking tired and I have a long day of work ahead. I'll give it a look this afternoon. For all I know they might be bugged. But yes, there are two separate 00_strike_craft files, one in ship_behaviors and the other in component_templates. The one in ship_behaviors lets you modify their preferred_attack_range, formation_distance, and return_to_formation_distance; the one in component_templates lets you modify the actual range of their weapons. Hypothetically they should only be able to shoot from extended range if you modify the latter, and only able to fly out far from their carrier if you modify the former.
RE: PD not prioritizing close targets: What you'd probably want would be a special rangefinder computer with 0 size_difference_penalty and a very high distance_to_fleet_penalty. That's actually a good idea, I'll look into that after I get a handle on how the stuff I've already made works. I've not had a chance to test yet, but I have vague suspicions that formation_distance should be a little shorter than return_to_formation_distance, rather than the same value, especially on shorter-ranged computers.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 25, 2016, 10:01:35 am
So, is the main complaint that there is a lot of things not finished, and pretty much left for DLC?
I remember when I bought EU4, that was a major complaint (pretty sure it was EU4, maybe CK2? Both?) and I still had a lot of fun with it. I remember a ton of people complaining about EU4/CK2 and how buggy it was, and pretty sure one or both of them people complained about unfinished stuff too, or stuff that needed a lot of work.
I'll probably just wait to spend that 59.99 and see how things go. A patch is coming out supposedly for Stellaris today (or is it already out?) and a 2nd one after that.
Yeah, one patch this week/next week, and another in a month. That's before the first DLC. You're definitely better off waiting, at least until this summer. The game is certainly playable right now, but not great. finished/unfinished is always a matter of expectations, but the fact that they're devoting two months of patching to
I doubt they will ever see 65-70k players again. 50k maybe. Unfortunately they released a pretty mediocre game straight into the rebirth of the Total War franchise, they have Civ 6 coming out in a few months, and they'll be cannibalizing their own users with HOI4 next month.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 25, 2016, 12:29:31 pm
A big part of why CKII was so successful is that it deviated from that same formula by putting as much weight as it did on the RPG aspects of dynasty-building. All it really needs is for the bones of the major systems to be properly laid, which is what they appear to be doing; from what I've seen it's relatively straightforward to add additional bit-piece content like techs, modules, &c., apart from things that just aren't supported well/at all by the UI (like ships with markedly more sections). It's pretty simple, for example, to extend the ship-component techs and modules out to tier 10 for everything, just tedious.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 25, 2016, 01:19:23 pm
Eh, I'm inclined to be a bit more positive than that. Stellaris has two things going for it: It's Paradox so it'll get better over time, and the premise behind it isn't "Take control of a nation and seek world domination on Earth in X time period" (or the same for "a remarkably Earthlike planet with random distribution of landmasses" in the case of Civ).
A big part of why CKII was so successful is that it deviated from that same formula by putting as much weight as it did on the RPG aspects of dynasty-building. All it really needs is for the bones of the major systems to be properly laid, which is what they appear to be doing; from what I've seen it's relatively straightforward to add additional bit-piece content like techs, modules, &c., apart from things that just aren't supported well/at all by the UI (like ships with markedly more sections). It's pretty simple, for example, to extend the ship-component techs and modules out to tier 10 for everything, just tedious.
I'm not sure I disagree with anything you said. But none of that is going to lead to Stellaris making a huge comeback and regaining all the users who aren't personally devoted to Paradox to the level that they'll wait 6 months for the game to get good, and then buy $20 DLCs 2-3 times per year.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 25, 2016, 02:26:45 pm
Post by: Glloyd on May 25, 2016, 02:53:23 pm
I'm sure unique mechanics for gov types and ethics will come in the inevitable rush of DLC, but they should be ashamed of the state they released the game in. By the midgame I had to force myself to keep playing because I wanted to see the endgame stuff, and once I realized how boring and broken they were, I quit. Tried again as a different race with different ethics, gov, etc, but it was just more of the same. That IGN was spot on, and I personally would've given it a lower score than 6.5, because only half of one game was any fun.
It sucks, I've been playing Paradox games since HOI2, and this is the first one that I've actively disliked. I love 4Xs and I love Paradox, but I just don't find Stellaris to be any fun past the early game, and I have no desire to play it again. We'll see what they do with DLCs, but I'm pretty disappointed.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 25, 2016, 03:05:52 pm
You could also add a redundant tag in the non-functional modifiers list to simply act as a display of changes.I just tried this again today on a whim, and it decided to work this time. Goddamn, I don't even know. Not going to question it.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 25, 2016, 03:25:23 pm
That's fair enough. Though that hasn't stopped CKII and EUIV from continuing to make the daily "top games by player count" list on Steam consistently. There's only about a thousand fewer people playing CKII than nuCOM 2, and the latter just had a major DLC drop.
What list are you referring to? Or rather, what do you count as "top games by player count"? Because EU4 has never been in the top 25 as far as I know. CK2 is even smaller (and was never as big, anyway).
When it comes to Stellaris, I think this graph tells the story pretty nicely: http://steamcharts.com/cmp/8930,281990#1m
Post by: Flying Dice on May 25, 2016, 03:32:51 pm
That's fair enough. Though that hasn't stopped CKII and EUIV from continuing to make the daily "top games by player count" list on Steam consistently. There's only about a thousand fewer people playing CKII than nuCOM 2, and the latter just had a major DLC drop.
What list are you referring to? Or rather, what do you count as "top games by player count"? Because EU4 has never been in the top 25 as far as I know. CK2 is even smaller (and was never as big, anyway).
When it comes to Stellaris, I think this graph tells the story pretty nicely: http://steamcharts.com/cmp/8930,281990#1m
http://store.steampowered.com/stats/ (http://store.steampowered.com/stats/)
Top games by current player count. EUIV is 32nd, CKII is 69th. It's also more than a little unfair to compare Paradox games to Civ--Civ is and always has been 'babby's first 4X', and grand strategy games are relatively niche even in the strategy genre. The people they lose are mostly going to be casuals, is what I'm saying. People stuck by CKII and EUIV when they had shitty launches. There's no huge silent audience of people willing to drop full price on a Paradox game who aren't also already devoted to grand strategy. It's like saying that if only M&B Warband was better a bunch of people playing Skyrim would be playing Warband instead.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 25, 2016, 03:35:23 pm
Honestly, I think the biggest issue with Stellaris is something that hasn't really been addressed by the devs. Right now, there's zero replayability. I think part of this stems from the fact that the game is an awkward mashup between a grand strategy and a 4X, but there's really no reason to play twice because once you've played to the end once, you've pretty much seen it all outside some flavour events. Putting aside the fact that right now the mid-endgame is a boring repetitive slog, something that is important in most 4Xs (and strategy games in general) is making the different sides you play as actually feel different from each other, and Stellaris does not accomplish that. Each race is only different by cosmetics, because you can customize ethics and gov type, and the ethics and gov types only provide small percentage bonuses one way or another. Playing as an individual materalist science government and a communal, spiritualist oligarchy will give you pretty much the same experience, outside of the silly flavour events that always happen for spiritualist. There's a severe lack of unique mechanics for gov types/ethics. Yeah, you're more able to have slaves as a communal species, and more able to purge as a xenophobic species, but that won't really change how you play your game. Everything still has the same boring ass endgoal, which is just to paint the map in your colour by slogging through hundreds of boring identical wars with all the federations that form. And even if the endgame events weren't totally broken, you can see all three in one playthrough, giving no reason to play again to try and find more. Even the planets you can settle makes no real difference. It's just either a boon or an inconvenience depending on how lucky you are with RNG, until you get to the midgame and the point becomes moot.
I'm sure unique mechanics for gov types and ethics will come in the inevitable rush of DLC, but they should be ashamed of the state they released the game in. By the midgame I had to force myself to keep playing because I wanted to see the endgame stuff, and once I realized how boring and broken they were, I quit. Tried again as a different race with different ethics, gov, etc, but it was just more of the same. That IGN was spot on, and I personally would've given it a lower score than 6.5, because only half of one game was any fun.
It sucks, I've been playing Paradox games since HOI2, and this is the first one that I've actively disliked. I love 4Xs and I love Paradox, but I just don't find Stellaris to be any fun past the early game, and I have no desire to play it again. We'll see what they do with DLCs, but I'm pretty disappointed.
I think the stuff about the races all playing the same is one of the biggest problems. Klackons in MoO2 do not play like Elerians who do not play like Darlocks etc. Yet no matter what I pick in Stellaris, I'm pretty much playing the same empire.
The worst aspect of this are the computer empires. They're all faceless blobs that don't really do anything different from one another. And literally faceless, because it's no help remembering them by appearance, since there's no correlation between appearance and ethos, and you can have 95% similar AI alien portraits with diametrically opposite ethos/tech levels/traits/etc. So the first thing you learn when playing is "ignore what the computer empires look like."
While I don't always agree with Tom Chick, I think he put it pretty well here:
Quote
A race is nothing more than a set of values that is never constant. You can select one of the eight pre-built races, but why bother, since none of them exists in the game? You might as well just roll your own race, because thats what the universe is going to do. Every faction you encounter in Stellaris is a randomly rolled set of values. Not procedural. Its not as if the bird people are better at flying, the reptile people are better at mining minerals, or the people people are better at diplomacy. Its completely random. The picture on their diplomacy screen is of no relevance whatsoever. There is nothing inherent in the slimy octopus people, the mushroom people, the bug people, or even the vanilla people people. No one eats rocks, or lives in caves, or doesnt need farms, or uses special rules. All that matters is their ethos, their traits, and how they move across the map. X, Y, and Z. This is where Paradoxs spreadsheet approach to gameplay, which serves them well when they breathe gameplay data into history, undermines a fundamental tenet of sci-fi. Aliens should be alien. Not just rolled dice with a bunch of babytalk names slapped onto them. Im-do. Quasvalyvia. Jouvon. Pouz-dok. Lagun-chuzz. Faffosan. You will always remember the Klackon in Master of Orion. You will never remember the Oogie-Nollocks Union in Stellaris.
Post by: Glloyd on May 25, 2016, 04:38:18 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on May 25, 2016, 04:57:56 pm
OOB
1x Zeus-class CA, DSS Athena (pair of particle lances, long-ranged)
1x Rifleman-class DD, DSS Minotaur (laser-based brawler, medium-ranged)
2x Inferno-class DD, DSS Audacity and DDS Loyal (particle lance, long-ranged)
3x Valor-class corvette, DDS Gauntlet, DDS Boxer, and DDS Decisive (torpedo boat, short-ranged)
I ran them in two engagements. The first was against a single drone group and mining station, the second against eight void clouds. Here's an album (http://imgur.com/a/l9OYk) annotating them and highlighting what my and the other modders' changes have resulted in.
But yeah. Fleets with ships with very different ideal ranges and behaviors working together coherently. Particle lances firing across a third of a system. No defensive behavior bug. I'm pleased with the results so far.
--
Yeah, the lack of depth and character is problematic.
Post by: Cruxador on May 25, 2016, 05:31:17 pm
That's fair enough. Though that hasn't stopped CKII and EUIV from continuing to make the daily "top games by player count" list on Steam consistently. There's only about a thousand fewer people playing CKII than nuCOM 2, and the latter just had a major DLC drop.It's also vastly more polished and fun.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 25, 2016, 05:54:49 pm
I've seen something similar with other empires upon first contact (and occasionally well beyond) where even if there is no border contact at all, they still claim border friction.
Needless to say this was in no way fun for me, as they basically destroyed my entire empire in moments.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 25, 2016, 08:12:55 pm
And to be perfectly honest I'm not entirely sympathetic to people complaining about it. There should definitely be some clarity changes so that you can glean that from your interactions with them (and also the ability to abandon a colony, holy sheeyeet we need that badly), but if someone settles a world without bothering to scout around it, and even if they think "Gee, I'm sure that these ancient paranoid assholes won't mind if I set up camp a couple lightyears away from the edge of their metaphorical lawn," I sorta see them as having it coming. But yeah. If you talk with them, they should pretty clearly tell you to not stick your nose in anywhere near them, let alone inside their claimed territory, instead of the sorta vague "me so strong me bomb you long time" schtick that all the aggressive powers get.
That's not to say that there aren't myriad problems with FEs, just that the ornery militant bastards being mean shits to anyone within striking range should honestly not come as a surprise. It's one of the few good points about the AI, that there are some expressions of it that can't be gamed or quietly managed and will just absolutely shit all over you if you try to play "I'm not touching you! ;D" games with them.
Post by: kilakan on May 25, 2016, 08:28:59 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on May 25, 2016, 08:34:04 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on May 25, 2016, 09:07:08 pm
And oh hey, if you want another fix, go to your defines file (Stellaris>common>defines>00_defines.lua) and search for the line MILITARY_STATION_MAINTENANCE_MUL. Change the value from 0.75 to -0.25. The intent was for military stations to have 25% lower maintenance costs compared to warships, but in typical Paradox fashion they didn't bother to do Q&A testing or even double-check their code, so the actual effect is that military stations cost 75% more in maintenance instead.
I've got a design for an eight particle lance fortress that only costs slightly more in upkeep than a three-lance BB with the -25% docked maintenance reduction.
Another change I made for myself that might be worth considering is dropping mining and research stations from 1 energy upkeep to 0.5. Otherwise it's actually somewhat counterproductive to ever build stations on one-resource nodes, since you could get double the minerals with a T1 mining building or triple the research points with a T1 lab for the same energy cost.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 25, 2016, 10:42:28 pm
snipped for text wall
They were in a different spiral arm, I had NO contiguous territory, they just declared war on me because I had first contact. This isn't a sympathy request, its a WTF. As in: I have no close contact with you, we don't even have any neighbors in common, all I did was get your attention by accident with a damn science ship, does that really require you to arbitrarily obliterate me?
It was a matter of days from first contact that they decided to wreck my shit, no insults, no nothing, they just said, 'nope fuck you' and killed me.
You want real insanity? In a different save I've got another isolationist FE that has had continuous REAL (I've actually pushed their borders back, and have colonies in the area I occupy) border friction with my empire for almost a thousand years, and they aren't even pissed, just kind of irritated.
Post by: IronyOwl on May 25, 2016, 11:07:25 pm
Did they actually conquer your planets or anything, or just roll over your military and then leave?snipped for text wall
They were in a different spiral arm, I had NO contiguous territory, they just declared war on me because I had first contact. This isn't a sympathy request, its a WTF. As in: I have no close contact with you, we don't even have any neighbors in common, all I did was get your attention by accident with a damn science ship, does that really require you to arbitrarily obliterate me?
It was a matter of days from first contact that they decided to wreck my shit, no insults, no nothing, they just said, 'nope fuck you' and killed me.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 25, 2016, 11:26:47 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on May 26, 2016, 12:05:47 am
Unrelated: I'm guessing there's no workaround to that thing where an in-growth pop stops growing if the last pop from its race migrates off the planet, unless you have resettlement or purging enabled? It's rather unfortunate to lose a tile to a ghostly 1/3 of a pop, but I don't think my individualists are allowed to enable resettlement to fix it.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 26, 2016, 12:17:28 am
That said, AI is kinda buggy, so they might get stuck and never end the war for whatever reason.
Post by: Sirus on May 26, 2016, 12:25:45 am
Maybe a mod someday.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 26, 2016, 12:33:09 am
Post by: Karnewarrior on May 26, 2016, 01:37:51 am
AI doesn't understand white peace currently, but Clarke will fix it.that sounds like it would actually make sense for fanatic militants and maybe militant empires. Those kinds of cultures who would see your 36 year war as a glourious contest against a worthy opponent instead of a damned slog.
In fact, I'd even give militant empires a positive relation bonus with empires they fought a long war against. Like, a worthy opponent bonus of maybe +10 relations or more depending on how long the war lasted versus how even the warscore was on average/at the end, divided by how far away the empire is from yours to prevent easy cheesing.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2016, 01:42:37 am
Most of the time they just force you to vacate a couple colonies or humiliate you. I've barely seen anyone reporting them doing a total kill, and never experienced one myself.
That said, AI is kinda buggy, so they might get stuck and never end the war for whatever reason.
Well the colonies they wanted me to vacate was every single planet I had, so it would have been a loss even if I surrendered.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 26, 2016, 01:56:51 am
Those kinds of cultures who would see your 36 year war as a glourious contest against a worthy opponent instead of a damned slog.
I don't know how it actually works, but militarism and pacifism already modify war exhaustion. Militarist populations actually get happier from being in a war.
Post by: BFEL on May 26, 2016, 02:39:35 am
Obvious answer: Colonize a new planet they didn't want you to vacate. Though this would obviously have had to happen prior to the blockadeningMost of the time they just force you to vacate a couple colonies or humiliate you. I've barely seen anyone reporting them doing a total kill, and never experienced one myself.
That said, AI is kinda buggy, so they might get stuck and never end the war for whatever reason.
Well the colonies they wanted me to vacate was every single planet I had, so it would have been a loss even if I surrendered.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2016, 02:44:30 am
The part that's really bothering me is that they demanded I abandon worlds that were nowhere near them, like the two little colonies I had just put up at the tail end of my arm, those colonies were ridiculously distant from them. It is as if the AI just went down the list of planets I controlled and printed it as the war demands.
Post by: Ultimuh on May 26, 2016, 03:00:44 am
I didn't have 350 days to get a colony ship built, I had like, 5 days tops between meeting them and them deciding I had to die, took less than a week for them to trash every single spaceport.
The part that's really bothering me is that they demanded I abandon worlds that were nowhere near them, like the two little colonies I had just put up at the tail end of my arm, those colonies were ridiculously distant from them. It is as if the AI just went down the list of planets I controlled and printed it as the war demands.
Sounds like a case of Disproportionate Retribution (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DisproportionateRetribution).
Fallen Empires just don't think the way you do. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality)
Post by: Mini on May 26, 2016, 04:17:57 am
Post by: IronyOwl on May 26, 2016, 04:37:25 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 26, 2016, 05:20:02 am
Post by: BFEL on May 26, 2016, 05:56:59 am
Fallen Empires just don't think the way you do. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality)Or more likely they're the only ones who think the way you (the player) do. Even/especially your own empire doesn't think the way you do, seeing as you can't do what they did to an AI and take their whole empire all at once. Nope, player has to take 2/3 planets at a time, while apparently the AI can just take whatever the fuck they want from you.
Post by: andrea on May 26, 2016, 06:20:49 am
also don't you always keep a spare colony ship around to race toward juicy planets?
a colony ship has a very high upkeep cost. depending on the stage of the game, a spare colony ship can be quite costly.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 26, 2016, 06:48:59 am
Worth noting that until the cost is switched over to scaling in Clarke you can actually vassalize an empire, regardless of size, for less warscore than taking one of their major worlds. If you can keep the lid on discontent and rebellion you can wait 3600 days to integrate them... or if you have the right ethics just purge/enslave all of their pops so you don't have to deal with the happiness and faction micromanagement bullshit.Fallen Empires just don't think the way you do. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality)Or more likely they're the only ones who think the way you (the player) do. Even/especially your own empire doesn't think the way you do, seeing as you can't do what they did to an AI and take their whole empire all at once. Nope, player has to take 2/3 planets at a time, while apparently the AI can just take whatever the fuck they want from you.
EIGHT FUCKING ENERGY WHYalso don't you always keep a spare colony ship around to race toward juicy planets?
a colony ship has a very high upkeep cost. depending on the stage of the game, a spare colony ship can be quite costly.
Post by: IronyOwl on May 26, 2016, 07:41:46 am
Worth noting that until the cost is switched over to scaling in Clarke you can actually vassalize an empire, regardless of size, for less warscore than taking one of their major worlds. If you can keep the lid on discontent and rebellion you can wait 3600 days to integrate them... or if you have the right ethics just purge/enslave all of their pops so you don't have to deal with the happiness and faction micromanagement bullshit.I'm torn between "ooh" and "what the shit, again." I swear they meant well with war score, but it's ever so slightly rough at the moment.
I actually kind of like the heavy investment for not just forming a colony, but keeping an entire pop's worth of colonists well supplied in an airtight tin can.EIGHT FUCKING ENERGY WHYalso don't you always keep a spare colony ship around to race toward juicy planets?
a colony ship has a very high upkeep cost. depending on the stage of the game, a spare colony ship can be quite costly.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 26, 2016, 07:59:14 am
EIGHT FUCKING ENERGY WHYalso don't you always keep a spare colony ship around to race toward juicy planets?
a colony ship has a very high upkeep cost. depending on the stage of the game, a spare colony ship can be quite costly.
[/quote]
eh the cost of finding a colony and arriving second is much more than that, especially when borders with unclaimed space are in flux at the beginning. it's also nice to snatch a planet out an empire zone by stubbornly refusing researching the alien contact - for as long as they don't establish contact, you can colonize away wherever you like.
Post by: Noel.se on May 26, 2016, 08:19:54 am
Post by: Flying Dice on May 26, 2016, 12:35:13 pm
EIGHT FUCKING ENERGY WHYalso don't you always keep a spare colony ship around to race toward juicy planets?
a colony ship has a very high upkeep cost. depending on the stage of the game, a spare colony ship can be quite costly.
eh the cost of finding a colony and arriving second is much more than that, especially when borders with unclaimed space are in flux at the beginning. it's also nice to snatch a planet out an empire zone by stubbornly refusing researching the alien contact - for as long as they don't establish contact, you can colonize away wherever you like.
[/quote]
I understand the balance side of things, it's just obnoxious that you have to tank your economy to found a single colony for however many weeks/months it takes the ship to get there and create the colony-and that's if you micromanage to the point where the colony ships are sent out the second they finish, instead of one of the poor fools who make them and forget about them.
What I honestly think it should be is that the energy cost should be borne during the colony founding period instead-so after the ship lands you pay a big chunk of energy to establish it permanently. That both makes more sense logistically and fills the same role in game balance of forcing players to weigh the costs instead of colonizing everything ever.
Incidentally, that's why I actually like the way having more pops (and soon, more colonies) increases research times, both from a balance perspective and lorewise--presumably because your scientists and engineers have to figure out how to implement the new techs into practice across your entire empire, which is easier for a handful of worlds than several dozen. It also means that lategame isn't just you researching a new tech every week until you've filled the tree.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 26, 2016, 01:20:09 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 26, 2016, 04:29:44 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Shame you have to rely on modding a great deal to inject character into Stellaris and then make something of it, it's rather... Bland at times, and buggy as all hell. I've committed myself to just never, ever looking at what my sector governors are doing. It is a terrible thing, and it pains me greatly. One time I found my governor had taken my science world based around researching the nuclear apocalypse that had befallen some ancient civilization - and removed all of the wastelands they were researching and replaced all of the laboratories with low-yield power plants, mines and farms. The whole issue of farms was especially aggravating, because the planet was run by synths who didn't eat food.
I've resigned myself to just accepting that the governors are hopelessly incompetent and are destroying priceless relics to make way for worthless mines and power plants.
Some observations:
- Learning that you can make fleets follow other ships by right clicking on them is invaluable information. As soon as you learn this, you CAN'T help but send off explorator fleets of convoys trailing science ships as they cross the cosmos. By rushing through people's fledgling Empires, it's possible to discover the majority (if not all) of your galaxy's Empires, and perhaps even establish distant colonies.
- Irradiated species are the best thing ever. (http://i.imgur.com/skN9uYx.png) That you can't pick this trait on the start screen is a travesty, because they're the only pops the AI can use on tomb-worlds quasi-competently (they will still destroy everything of scientific interest but will at least be able to make a self-sufficient planet ;D And for some reason, an event may occasionally fire where the tomb world gets -10% happiness due to high radiation, but this negative bonus even affects irradiated species so... What's going on?
- The Social Welfare policy is not as crippling as you'd think, at least under the right circumstances. It costs you 20% of your annual mineral and energy income which is pretty severe, for most prohibitively so (even if it gives you +15% happiness across your Empire, the extra stability is usually not worth the absolute halt in industry and finance). But if you keep your Empire in a closed system where you are better able to control population growth and ethos, and most importantly you keep to optimum worlds for each species within your Empire, not only does the social welfare policy provide extra stability - it pays for itself and more. Pops that are joyous work 20% more productively, completely cancelling out the cost of the Social Welfare policy. Only the Social Welfare policy only costs you minerals and energy, so you're effectively only paying influence for the policy in order to increase agricultural yields and research yields (both getting +20% productivity) in addition to ironclad stability and bragging rights of saying your Empire isn't actually a shithole. From then on all you have to worry about dissidents (who are so unhappy that their productivity is not increased, meaning for every unhappy pop you're losing out on 20% output per pop) or pops living on planets they're not suited to completely (even being 1 step away from the home planet type caps happiness at 60%, meaning output is reduced per pop). Essentially meaning if you want to maintain efficiency and avoid losing out money and minerals over time, you gotta cut out the darn space benefit scroungers! D:<
That or move them to a planet that suits them, but resettling is rather bugged to hell for sectors too. Hmph.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2016, 05:01:50 pm
Although frontier clinics and that tech that increases habitability by 5% will both help on the happiness front.
Paradise Dome
Post by: Flying Dice on May 26, 2016, 06:13:18 pm
@LW: Don't use sector governors. Just don't. Get the mod that adds edicts to increase the core world cap to a number of different increments. There's zero shame in avoiding having to use a completely broken system, at the very least until they try to fix it in Clarke.
Sector AI is so bad that it will remove all the super-high-yield artifact buildings from captured ringworld segments and replace them with basic farms and mines.
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 26, 2016, 06:52:16 pm
I'm pretty sure that More Technologies adds more planet uniques to increase happiness. I rolled one that gave I think +10% happiness and a boost to armies, flavored as a blood sport coliseum.The beta patch 1.1 is out now which supposedly fixed sector behavior, it even (again supposedly) correctly uses robot pops and respects the 'do not redevelop' tickmark
@LW: Don't use sector governors. Just don't. Get the mod that adds edicts to increase the core world cap to a number of different increments. There's zero shame in avoiding having to use a completely broken system, at the very least until they try to fix it in Clarke.
Sector AI is so bad that it will remove all the super-high-yield artifact buildings from captured ringworld segments and replace them with basic farms and mines.
Post by: Teneb on May 26, 2016, 07:20:45 pm
I'm pretty sure that More Technologies adds more planet uniques to increase happiness. I rolled one that gave I think +10% happiness and a boost to armies, flavored as a blood sport coliseum.FD, apologies for yet another request, but since you are getting pretty involved in modding the game: could you provide a mod list with what you consider essential for this pre-Clarke version? Or at least what you are using.
@LW: Don't use sector governors. Just don't. Get the mod that adds edicts to increase the core world cap to a number of different increments. There's zero shame in avoiding having to use a completely broken system, at the very least until they try to fix it in Clarke.
Sector AI is so bad that it will remove all the super-high-yield artifact buildings from captured ringworld segments and replace them with basic farms and mines.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 26, 2016, 09:12:36 pm
I'm pretty sure that More Technologies adds more planet uniques to increase happiness. I rolled one that gave I think +10% happiness and a boost to armies, flavored as a blood sport coliseum.FD, apologies for yet another request, but since you are getting pretty involved in modding the game: could you provide a mod list with what you consider essential for this pre-Clarke version? Or at least what you are using.
@LW: Don't use sector governors. Just don't. Get the mod that adds edicts to increase the core world cap to a number of different increments. There's zero shame in avoiding having to use a completely broken system, at the very least until they try to fix it in Clarke.
Sector AI is so bad that it will remove all the super-high-yield artifact buildings from captured ringworld segments and replace them with basic farms and mines.
Sure!
Okay, essential:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Optional but recommended:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Of course I've also made a bunch of balance changes of my own, but those aren't really in a coherent mod, and I didn't even fucking document them (lol) so I can't enumerate them in detail.
Post by: Teneb on May 26, 2016, 09:18:39 pm
-snip-Are these in the forums? Or steam workshop? Should've asked first. I'll search them both, but it may help others.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 26, 2016, 09:19:25 pm
All workshop. The forums make it a pain in the ass to find stuff, some mods aren't there, and the masterlist doesn't get updated enough.-snip-Are these in the forums? Or steam workshop? Should've asked first. I'll search them both, but it may help others.
Post by: Teneb on May 26, 2016, 09:37:49 pm
Damn, now i want to get into Stellaris modding.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 27, 2016, 12:25:11 am
I was playing with sectors even before it since, honestly, I hate micro. If I had to manually take care of a dozen planets, I'd never get a dozen planets. I tend to neglect even the five planets I have. Usually I just choose four homeworlds of other species so I have more options for colony ships, but forget to build their infrastructure very well. I'm supposed to be a space emperor, not a space municipal engineer, dammit. If I want to build infrastructure, I'll play Cities Skylines.
Plus if the AI uses the sector AI to manage its planets, optimizing all your planets by hand gives you undue advantage in single player.
Post by: gimlet on May 27, 2016, 02:04:19 am
Reading the threads and watching some play videos did give me an itch for a sf 4x though - I'll post a request in the "recommend me a game" thread to not derail this one.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 27, 2016, 03:53:08 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 27, 2016, 04:13:35 am
If you are willing to pay a lot, Distant Worlds is pretty good.
it's helluvalot good :P I'm playing with the picard era mod, automated everything out of everything, designed a large capital ship, named it enterprise and boldly went researching anomalies, destroying super weapons before they fell in wrong hands, blockading planets, destroying refueling stations, fighting pirates and generally having the time of my life XD
Post by: Flying Dice on May 27, 2016, 07:13:40 am
Beta patch fixes sectors.The AI doesn't use sectors AFAIK.
I was playing with sectors even before it since, honestly, I hate micro. If I had to manually take care of a dozen planets, I'd never get a dozen planets. I tend to neglect even the five planets I have. Usually I just choose four homeworlds of other species so I have more options for colony ships, but forget to build their infrastructure very well. I'm supposed to be a space emperor, not a space municipal engineer, dammit. If I want to build infrastructure, I'll play Cities Skylines.
Plus if the AI uses the sector AI to manage its planets, optimizing all your planets by hand gives you undue advantage in single player.
Post by: Descan on May 27, 2016, 10:04:24 am
That's his point. That the AI has control over your sector planets AND the planets of the AI empires, because they're both AI, and it'd be weird to program two different types of planetary control AI (not only is that a bit unbalanced if they're different [which one would be better, the sector AI, or the empire AI? Why that one and not the other? If they're not differing in quality, why have two different AI schemes?] but it's also more places for coding errors, which are apparently rife in Stellaris)
Post by: umiman on May 27, 2016, 12:32:49 pm
Yeah, Distant Worlds is amazing. Especially the automation so you can personally choose what you want to do.If you are willing to pay a lot, Distant Worlds is pretty good.
it's helluvalot good :P I'm playing with the picard era mod, automated everything out of everything, designed a large capital ship, named it enterprise and boldly went researching anomalies, destroying super weapons before they fell in wrong hands, blockading planets, destroying refueling stations, fighting pirates and generally having the time of my life XD
Post by: lastverb on May 27, 2016, 12:33:19 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 27, 2016, 01:17:41 pm
Although frontier clinics and that tech that increases habitability by 5% will both help on the happiness front.Well if you were still settling on one planet down the habitability scale with a frontier clinic, you'd still be capped at 65%. If you can bump that and happiness with social welfare up to 80-89%, you'd be getting half your money back. With the two habitability boosting techs you'd be capped at 75% happiness, basically requiring your planet to either have a paradise dome, your species to be adaptable or the planet to be lush to get half your money back. If your 1st tier colonized worlds are outnumbered by your 2nd tier colonized worlds, then you should just stick with content pops and not bother with social welfare, as you won't be able to make them joyous and will take a fifth of your economy out of work :D
Notably, extremely adaptive species will be able to run social welfare on tier 2 planets without much issue at all, pretty much just needing the habitability techs to reach the +20% productivity
Post by: Flying Dice on May 27, 2016, 01:36:36 pm
... Why would the AI use sectors when both the sectors and the AI empires use the same AI, supposedly? "You can't control those planets, AI! You'll have to give it to yourself to control, in a sector!" The only reasoning I can see to give the AI sectors would be for sector governors.
That's his point. That the AI has control over your sector planets AND the planets of the AI empires, because they're both AI, and it'd be weird to program two different types of planetary control AI (not only is that a bit unbalanced if they're different [which one would be better, the sector AI, or the empire AI? Why that one and not the other? If they're not differing in quality, why have two different AI schemes?] but it's also more places for coding errors, which are apparently rife in Stellaris)
They don't use the same AI, as lastverb said. Sector AI is vastly more limited, and is defined pretty much solely by a limited set of priorities. The empire AI isn't great, but the personalities defined for the different ethos combinations still make it much more robust than sector AI. Sector AI will literally cripple the worlds it controls, but certain Hard+ AI personalities will roll over the galaxy in the right circumstances.
Post by: PTTG?? on May 27, 2016, 03:46:48 pm
Precocious FTL (+1 level of your engine tech at start) [2]
Precocious Thrusters (+1 level of sublight tech at start) [1]
Precocious Weapons (+1 level of your weapon tech at start) [3]
Innate Navigators (+5% range, +5% FTL speed) [3]
Subterranean (Resist bombardment by 50%, -50% blocker removal costs, increased building costs) [3]
Lithovore (Pops consume 1 mineral instead of 1 food) [1]
Biological Collectivists (Your race never gets less collectivist) [1]
Innate Adventurousness (+10% anomaly discovery chance, +10% anomaly failure rate) [1]
Innate Caution (-10% anomaly discovery chance, -10% anomaly failure rate) [1]
Efficient Tech (-5% upkeep costs) [2]
Dirty Tech (-5% upkeep costs, AND all structures reduce habitability by 1% each) [-2]
Uncreative (-2 research options) [-3]
Small (-50% food consumption) [2]
Large (+100% food consumption) [-3]
Toxic Biochemistry (Pops reduce habitability for other pops) [1]
Motherships (Start with Cruisers and Fighter Operations instead of Corvettes) [-1]
Sublight (Start with NO FTL method; Your selected drive tech starts with one research point invested and so will always be available) [-2]
Strip Mining (+1 mineral per mine, mines add a habitability penalty of -2% cumulatively) [??????]
Bonus Habitability (Gain 1 planet type as a potential colony world) [3]
Natural Backstabbers (Leaders are occasionally assassinated by their underlings; a new, less-skilled leader will take their place; plus some effects from Strong and Resilient) [-2]
Post by: Sirus on May 27, 2016, 04:15:53 pm
Post by: Cruxador on May 27, 2016, 04:45:31 pm
That's his point. That the AI has control over your sector planets AND the planets of the AI empires, because they're both AI, and it'd be weird to program two different types of planetary control AI (not only is that a bit unbalanced if they're different [which one would be better, the sector AI, or the empire AI? Why that one and not the other? If they're not differing in quality, why have two different AI schemes?] but it's also more places for coding errors, which are apparently rife in Stellaris)Not only does the AI use sectors, it uses them oddly. The weight is such that it only ever makes energy and mineral sectors, never defense or tech sectors.
Post by: Xgamer4 on May 27, 2016, 04:49:41 pm
Sublight as well, for the same reasons.
They're also not really examples of a racial trait... That's more a problem of Stellaris being so adamant that everyone needs to start at exactly the same position - period. It wants to be a 4x, which seems to work and is why you can't start as a Fallen Empire, but I think Paradox went a bit too far with requiring everyone to start from exactly the same position.
I think they're interesting ideas, though
Post by: PTTG?? on May 27, 2016, 04:56:25 pm
Good point on the backstabbery.
Post by: Xgamer4 on May 27, 2016, 05:18:53 pm
But when traits is the only place they can be applied, well, there's not much choice...
What would be interesting is a (possibly optional) scenario starter where you select starting position perks/penalties like you'd select traits. Things like your Precocious ideas, or maybe an extra colony, or negatives like reduced mineral gain on the capital world to balance it out. Just something to make each game feel a little different due to different starting positions.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 27, 2016, 06:49:21 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 27, 2016, 06:51:02 pm
I'm not sure what I think of the Precocious ones... I like to think of Traits as things that help define a species, and that give some kind of impact throughout the game. The Precocious ones are just a buff that's going to be invalidated around the mid game, if not earlier depending on luck of the draw.I'm still waiting for that $500 DLC that lets you start out as a fragmented nation, only slightly aware that you're being watched - only to emerge into a crowded galaxy, possibly after being uplifted against your will or some shit like that
Sublight as well, for the same reasons.
They're also not really examples of a racial trait... That's more a problem of Stellaris being so adamant that everyone needs to start at exactly the same position - period. It wants to be a 4x, which seems to work and is why you can't start as a Fallen Empire, but I think Paradox went a bit too far with requiring everyone to start from exactly the same position.
I think they're interesting ideas, though
Post by: IronyOwl on May 27, 2016, 07:06:57 pm
Cue centuries of scheming and resentment.
Post by: Exerosp on May 27, 2016, 07:54:16 pm
I'm still waiting for that $500 DLC that lets you start out as a fragmented nation, only slightly aware that you're being watched - only to emerge into a crowded galaxy, possibly after being uplifted against your will or some shit like that500 dollars? What is this, Skyrim?
People really need to stop the whole bashing on Paradox releases of Expansions when there are as big crooks as Sid Meiers or Sega.
Though what you said kinda made me think of Spore when you saw Alien ships flying about :P
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 27, 2016, 08:05:18 pm
Being adopted right out the gate by a FE could make for some interesting interactions. "We've made it into sp-!" "HELLO NEW FRIENDS ALLOW ME TO EXPLAIN HOW SPACE WORKS" "But... I wanted to-" "NO""GREETINGS FRIENDS, I'VE UPGRADED YOUR SPECIES"
Cue centuries of scheming and resentment.
"You what?!"
"YOU SHALL EACH LIVE A CENTURY LONGER AND REQUIRE 20% LESS NUTRITION TO FUNCTION. ALSO YOU'RE ALL GOING TO HAVE TO MOVE TO THIS DESERT PLANET WE MADE FOR YOU. YOU ARE DESERT SPECIES NOW."
"Why? Change it back! Change it back!"
"APOLOGIES YOUNG ONES, WE HAVE RUN OUT OF GENE POINTS."
500 dollars? What is this, Skyrim?No, it's a bad practice and I don't like that they're adding to the list of people getting away with having guaranteed profit before they've even released a finished product
People really need to stop the whole bashing on Paradox releases of Expansions when there are as big crooks as Sid Meiers or Sega.
Though what you said kinda made me think of Spore when you saw Alien ships flying about :PRIP in pes spore
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 27, 2016, 08:09:09 pm
Post by: majikero on May 27, 2016, 08:30:08 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on May 27, 2016, 09:19:51 pm
You can always start with all Advance Start AI where you are the one late to space party and have to catch up.It would be fun to let the ai have something like a twenty year advantage on you.
Imagine starting the game and realizing some other empire has already settled mars, and they contact you to say "this whole system belongs to you, except Europa. Set no foot there."
It'd be fun playing as a vassal too, I'd just be worried about getting integrated.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 27, 2016, 09:21:29 pm
I don't think the DLC model is that bad. If it weren't for the free patches it would be atrocious though.It worked in CK2 because the model was to change how a type of character worked and then getting the expansion allowed you to play as that type of character. The actual game functioned exactly the same with or without the expansion.
But then EU4 rolled around and threw all that out the window. Suddenly Paradox has 20 different games to balance, based on what combination of DLC a player has.
I do agree that the general policy of expansions Paradox has is pretty great. Expansions in the old sense of the word are better than the current trends in DLC IMO.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 27, 2016, 10:58:04 pm
Imagine starting the game and realizing some other empire has already settled mars, and they contact you to say "this whole system belongs to you, except Europa. Set no foot there."I don't know how fun that'd be, but it'd be a sweet reference. Maybe even if was a rare event that meant "yeah you should probably restart the game".
I haven't bought this yet, but I am a bit disappointed that it sounds like just another 4X. Maybe if there was actual half-decent delegation like in CK2, instead of this apparently absurdly bad sector system. Which I'm sure will improve in time. I'm definitely still keeping an eye on this, planning to pick it up later.
Post by: PTTG?? on May 28, 2016, 01:51:43 am
Imagine starting the game and realizing some other empire has already settled mars, and they contact you to say "this whole system belongs to you, except Europa. Set no foot there."I don't know how fun that'd be, but it'd be a sweet reference. Maybe even if was a rare event that meant "yeah you should probably restart the game".
I haven't bought this yet, but I am a bit disappointed that it sounds like just another 4X. Maybe if there was actual half-decent delegation like in CK2, instead of this apparently absurdly bad sector system. Which I'm sure will improve in time. I'm definitely still keeping an eye on this, planning to pick it up later.
I'm kind of playing that game right now. There's a fallen empire right next door to my starting place, and they are friendly. I offered them a research agreement (from which they would not benefit) and they gave me a healthy one-time mineral and energy injection. Sempai LIKES me!
Post by: Glloyd on May 28, 2016, 08:26:18 am
Imagine starting the game and realizing some other empire has already settled mars, and they contact you to say "this whole system belongs to you, except Europa. Set no foot there.
Is that a reference to that Joe Haldeman series of books? Marsbound and whatnot?
Post by: Dutrius on May 28, 2016, 08:44:02 am
The location was the best part. Right slap bang in the middle of a Xenophobic Isolationist FE. They didn't last long.
Post by: gimlet on May 28, 2016, 01:00:09 pm
2010 reference I think...Imagine starting the game and realizing some other empire has already settled mars, and they contact you to say "this whole system belongs to you, except Europa. Set no foot there.Is that a reference to that Joe Haldeman series of books? Marsbound and whatnot?
Post by: PTTG?? on May 28, 2016, 04:07:02 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 28, 2016, 04:38:11 pm
Post by: a1s on May 28, 2016, 08:50:31 pm
Imagine starting the game and realizing some other empire has already settled mars, and they contact you to say "this whole system belongs to you, except Europa. Set no foot there."Is that a translation problem? Clearly they meant "except Mars"? :P
Post by: Karnewarrior on May 28, 2016, 08:57:33 pm
As parasitic tapeworms, they highly encourage you to colonize mars so they can colonize youImagine starting the game and realizing some other empire has already settled mars, and they contact you to say "this whole system belongs to you, except Europa. Set no foot there."Is that a translation problem? Clearly they meant "except Mars"? :P
They're space friends
But seriously don't fucking go to Europa, Erik lives there. You don't want to meet Erik.
Post by: IronyOwl on May 28, 2016, 10:16:04 pm
So, on a whim I decided to observe a galaxy on max speed. About 10 minutes in, I saw a new empire pop up, a primitive nation that had just gained FTL.Heh, neat.
The location was the best part. Right slap bang in the middle of a Xenophobic Isolationist FE. They didn't last long.
I kind of expected black holes and pulsars to be more interesting. If nothing else, it would be interesting if a high-level tech would give you the option to build singularity stabilizers and use black holes as cross-galactic shortcuts.
It does weird me out a bit seeing my guys regularly scoot around black hole singularities like it's nothingA huge part of the problem is probably that weird stellar phenomena tend to be relatively alone, so there's just not that many opportunities for interesting stuff. At a bare minimum, making them way more likely to give research bonuses would be nice. More interestingly, making them heavy risk vs reward type situations where you can do fascinating work but at the risk of terrible consequences would be awesome.
Speaking of which: Nebulas. I guess they slow movement speed or something? They don't need to do anything fancy, but it's kind of weird at the moment that the game bothers to name them and then you (or at least I) can't even notice the difference in or out of one.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 29, 2016, 06:36:58 am
Post by: jocan2003 on May 29, 2016, 12:40:01 pm
Went to the bed guy homeworld and wrecked his force and homeworld, pulverized his navy and defense like there was nothing with only minimal loss on my side, war took about 6 months tops and i won. Open up the diplomacy window, go see the *victims* who was at war... They frigging hate me like im the frigging galactic black plague or something. Treat giving -180 point and doesnt seem to tick down.
Never saw anything that stupid... Kick a galactic bully real hard and get ire of their victimcs O.O...
Post by: PTTG?? on May 29, 2016, 01:44:48 pm
Certain resources are only find from nebulae and dust clouds. Likewise, some end-game resources are mainly found in black hole or pulsar systems. I kind of miss having more strategic reasons for wanting certain systems, though. Maybe we get those in Heinlein when they spice up the middle game in general.From what I understand, they might have done well to release later and include Heinlein. Colony events sound like a big and kind of important change.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on May 29, 2016, 02:11:47 pm
So, i saw 3 empire at war about to be vassalised by another bigger empire, i promptly built a coule tech 3 wormhole station to be able to reach the space *nazy* and war decced them, ill bash their heads in i will be the galactic freedom fighter! My goal was to form a federation with the 3 being attacked, they like me!.
Went to the bed guy homeworld and wrecked his force and homeworld, pulverized his navy and defense like there was nothing with only minimal loss on my side, war took about 6 months tops and i won. Open up the diplomacy window, go see the *victims* who was at war... They frigging hate me like im the frigging galactic black plague or something. Treat giving -180 point and doesnt seem to tick down.
Never saw anything that stupid... Kick a galactic bully real hard and get ire of their victimcs O.O...
But you are stronk, so this means, that you can do whatever you want with them. That is reason to be aware of you.
Post by: Karnewarrior on May 29, 2016, 02:14:41 pm
So, i saw 3 empire at war about to be vassalised by another bigger empire, i promptly built a coule tech 3 wormhole station to be able to reach the space *nazy* and war decced them, ill bash their heads in i will be the galactic freedom fighter! My goal was to form a federation with the 3 being attacked, they like me!.Modern AI aren't very good at discerning circumstance. As far as they're concerned you beat up their neighbor and they're next.
Went to the bed guy homeworld and wrecked his force and homeworld, pulverized his navy and defense like there was nothing with only minimal loss on my side, war took about 6 months tops and i won. Open up the diplomacy window, go see the *victims* who was at war... They frigging hate me like im the frigging galactic black plague or something. Treat giving -180 point and doesnt seem to tick down.
Never saw anything that stupid... Kick a galactic bully real hard and get ire of their victimcs O.O...
Once your threat goes down though they'll be besties with you. Small nations love allying with big ones.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 29, 2016, 03:17:41 pm
Post by: jocan2003 on May 29, 2016, 05:07:36 pm
In other Paradox games you can intervene in wars. I hope they add that in later patches, perhaps tie it into certain ethos and/or government and make it a policy choice. It would be nice to be able to play galactic police and sometimes be aided by others when you are being bullied. You can guarantee independence now, but that is different from intervening in already existing wars.Maybe if i had garanteed independace first would have helped. But yeah im peacefull fanatic materialist if i remember right in that game, but when i saw the guy being an ass to 3 other smaller empire with barely anything to defend themself i was fuck it, your gone, they will like me and join my alliance soon to bbe federation....
Sadly turns out, they are now scared as hell of me, when all i wanted was to help them :(.
Post by: Greiger on May 29, 2016, 05:19:02 pm
Pretty much immediately after they demanded that I abandon all of my planets. Literally all of them. I told them to fuck off.
They declared war. I set up my fleets to defend and.... well... multiple 20k power fleets suddenly appeared at every planet I owned, wiped the floor with my 500 power fleet (singular) without taking a single hit, and took over.
I'm guessing these are the precursors I keep hearing so much about. So yea. What dipshit retarded fuckwit thought a random "fuck you, you lose, not a goddamn thing you can do about it" is a good gameplay decision?
I can see them maybe lategame, when it's possible there might be some big alliances around that have a snowball's chance in hell of fighting back, but right at the start? WTF Devs?
Post by: Flying Dice on May 29, 2016, 06:06:12 pm
They don't develop enough hostile relations from the initial meeting unless you DoW, and they won't attack you after that (generally) unless you colonize really close to them. I've yet to get ganked by a single fallen empire because I scout before settling, send embassies to them, and don't fuck with them until I'm ready for it.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 29, 2016, 06:10:09 pm
Post by: Greiger on May 29, 2016, 06:20:09 pm
My survey ship apparently found their homeworld, I think for punishment for having a ship in their territory they demanded that I abandon planets close to their territory, which was of course, all of them. I refused, they declared war shortly after, gg, no re.
Post by: BFEL on May 29, 2016, 06:23:38 pm
Also Flying Dice? Since you seem to be the resident codemonkey for this, is there a way to increase total warscore? I.E. 200 instead of 100 total? Would be GREAT if you could tie that into alliances, that each member increases your total conquest ability.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 29, 2016, 08:44:20 pm
Well, since Grieger's experience mirrors my own (with the exception of the vacate or else message), only a few pages prior, then I'd say that you are either wrong or the game has substantial glitches when it comes to handling that behavior.Oh, the AI is bugged to shit. It's just that certain types of FE being assholes that attack you with little or no provocation is more or less intended, it's just that it happens when it shouldn't.
That said, I normally maintain a total exclusion zone around all FEs just as a matter of principle. It makes sense both OOC and IC.
Yeah, that's two people who've had that happen now. Which means that those "you lose" scenarios are a thing that can happen, best case just a bug that will be ironed out, worst case its working as intended and sometimes you just get ayylmao'd.I'll look through the files when I get a chance. No clue how it would work though, I'm totally mucking around blind.
Also Flying Dice? Since you seem to be the resident codemonkey for this, is there a way to increase total warscore? I.E. 200 instead of 100 total? Would be GREAT if you could tie that into alliances, that each member increases your total conquest ability.
Post by: Astral on May 29, 2016, 09:59:14 pm
It should also spawn Fallen Empires at least a few systems away at minimum. They should be the danger lurking in the dark, not the "oh shit, these guys were here the whole time?" sort of deal. I had one game where my home system was practically in the border of a xenophobic isolationist FE that I had to abandon after discovering, but a multitude of games that have not.
The random generator is just too... random at times.
Post by: IronyOwl on May 29, 2016, 10:04:28 pm
In other Paradox games you can intervene in wars. I hope they add that in later patches, perhaps tie it into certain ethos and/or government and make it a policy choice. It would be nice to be able to play galactic police and sometimes be aided by others when you are being bullied. You can guarantee independence now, but that is different from intervening in already existing wars.And more generally, things like sanctions or forbidding tourism or the like in response to specific things would do a lot to make the universe feel more alive. Somebody declares war, you declare your citizens are no longer permitted to trade with them as a result of said warmongering, another empire decides their people are no longer to visit your empire and vice versa as a result of this preachy meddling, a third empire decides its holdings are now sanctuaries and refueling points for any of your empire's vessels as a result of "standing up" to those assholes, etc.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 30, 2016, 12:17:41 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 30, 2016, 12:49:18 am
Post by: lastverb on May 30, 2016, 03:39:20 am
I don't think anomaly exists previous scanning.They don't. However game use static seed, so savescumming will not work. Also you should investigate anomaly as soon as it's discovered because there is max number of anomalies active in system (1, with exceptions).
Post by: Majestic7 on May 30, 2016, 06:02:22 am
Post by: Cruxador on May 30, 2016, 06:43:29 am
It does weird me out a bit seeing my guys regularly scoot around black hole singularities like it's nothingBlack holes are actually only a problem if you get really close. You can still orbit them like nothing, it's just gravity.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 30, 2016, 09:08:03 am
Woot? I've found three anomalies in the same system.Active, not discoverable. If you find one and click the "we'll deal with this later" button, you won't find any others when you survey the rest of the system.
Post by: jocan2003 on May 30, 2016, 09:45:23 am
In my hard game i was save scumming for result, and i can swear i saw splattercat choosing we will deal with this later and had a bunch on wait till he leveled his scientists.I don't think anomaly exists previous scanning.They don't. However game use static seed, so savescumming will not work. Also you should investigate anomaly as soon as it's discovered because there is max number of anomalies active in system (1, with exceptions).
Post by: Sirus on May 30, 2016, 10:41:02 am
That doesn't seem right. I know I've found multiple anomalies in systems before, even when leaving them alone for later.Woot? I've found three anomalies in the same system.Active, not discoverable. If you find one and click the "we'll deal with this later" button, you won't find any others when you survey the rest of the system.
And even if I'm somehow wrong and you're describing how the game is supposed to be, it's still stupid. Finding an anomaly with a high chance of failure early in a system survey means you're screwed out of surveying the rest of the system, unless you want anomalies and are willing to risk your valuable science ship and scientist. Valuable, of course, being a relative term depending on how far into the game you are.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 30, 2016, 11:13:11 am
Maybe. I honestly don't know how some of their systems work, I'm just remembering my current campaign where I had something like ten systems that only yielded one after I set the first one to wait.That doesn't seem right. I know I've found multiple anomalies in systems before, even when leaving them alone for later.Woot? I've found three anomalies in the same system.Active, not discoverable. If you find one and click the "we'll deal with this later" button, you won't find any others when you survey the rest of the system.
And even if I'm somehow wrong and you're describing how the game is supposed to be, it's still stupid. Finding an anomaly with a high chance of failure early in a system survey means you're screwed out of surveying the rest of the system, unless you want anomalies and are willing to risk your valuable science ship and scientist. Valuable, of course, being a relative term depending on how far into the game you are.
The thing to do to test it would be to jack up the anomaly spawn chance really high and then survey some systems without investigating any.
Post by: andrea on May 30, 2016, 11:55:17 am
It just doesn't happen often because anomalies aren't that common.
Post by: Retropunch on May 30, 2016, 12:10:05 pm
I would like to see a "balanced start" option, common in these procedurally generated 4X games. Meaning that there are a certain number of minerals, energy credits and science points in your home system (and maybe one or two others nearby) regardless of where you start. This would make for a bit more balanced game in the long run, as I can't tell you how many games I've had to abandon due to lack of decent colonizable worlds nearby, or a complete lack of mine-able resources (or even stars) in my starting influence.
It should also spawn Fallen Empires at least a few systems away at minimum. They should be the danger lurking in the dark, not the "oh shit, these guys were here the whole time?" sort of deal. I had one game where my home system was practically in the border of a xenophobic isolationist FE that I had to abandon after discovering, but a multitude of games that have not.
The random generator is just too... random at times.
I've started up about 4 different games, and for the first two I was enjoying the randomness. The third kinda screwed me over, but I was ok with it as it was 'challenging' the fourth has been just awful. My two neighbors were just way, way bigger than I was and so I was just sort of trapped and had to abandon the game.
The problem is that the start is SO important - once you get behind you can't really get out of it (which is a problem in itself). It's just way too linear at the moment - with CK2 you could have a few turns of good fortune and go from doing ok to great, and similarly you could be doing well and get dealt a bad blow every now and then. It sometimes felt harsh, but you could sort of learn to prepare for it, whereas with Stellaris it's just 'hope you get a good start'.
Post by: PTTG?? on May 30, 2016, 12:57:33 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on May 30, 2016, 02:50:10 pm
Post by: Retropunch on May 30, 2016, 03:48:22 pm
The more I play with it, the more I like their approach to tech research times. It's one of the biggest things you have when trying to pull out of a crap starting position that left you with a tiny scrap of territory, and it's the polar opposite of most 4Xes where you'll be researching every tech in a handful of turns by the midgame because adding more territory points (cities, planets, systems, whatever) just increases your research income.
It does work, but doesn't make a lick of sense. Whilst I completely agree that gameplay trumps any sort of 'realism' 9 times out of 10, it just isn't really even coherent.
I think with more rare techs (that had more of an impact) you could shake things up pretty quickly. I can imagine each race could be given 5 or so rare techs which were individual to them - possibly having fewer planets would allow for a greater chance of them showing up (as you were more 'internally focused') that would then cause you to make some pretty big strides.
I'm hoping things become a lot more balanced with the next updates by punishing overextending more (sector based factions and stuff) and some additional bonuses to more contained civs. Still, as it's 100% about conquering everyone with nothing else to do, there isn't much to do if you're punished for extending.
Post by: Exerosp on May 30, 2016, 03:52:18 pm
Post by: jocan2003 on May 30, 2016, 04:23:07 pm
I'd like to see the research as one Scientist discovers the technology card you pick, then have to spend the research points teaching it out and implementing it to your nation.Changing infrastructre, fight bureaucracy to accept new blueprint, validate new blueprint, change tools of the trade and so on, thats how i see it too, not just a bunch of scientist face first in microscope and all. But one scientist fighting against an empire that doesnt like changes.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 30, 2016, 05:00:49 pm
Take, for example, military R&D in the real world. Stuff that's on the battlefield today was prototyped ten or fifteen years ago. So when you research a component for your ships that isn't indicative of "this is possible now" but rather "we have built up everything and refined the technology such that we can use it as standard issue".
Post by: Egan_BW on May 30, 2016, 05:26:24 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on May 30, 2016, 06:06:30 pm
That's the fundamental thing, Paradox games are not about conquering everything ever and warscore reflects that, but the current state of Stellaris is such that beyond a certain point you have nothing to do except fight, and they've not only included victory conditions but also only included ones which require conquest. Warscore works for their games in general because they're very clearly about the historical deviation and interactions with other states, and are backed up by more robust systems for both war and peace, as well as a lack of war-oriented victory conditions. Stellaris just doesn't have... any of that, really.
--
For reference, when I talk about keeping my distance from FEs before I can take them, this is what I mean:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Those pink Uriy assholes are xenophobic isolationists trying to claim-jump me in a hyperspace-only game, so I cut around beneath them to block their growth. The orange are a Holy Guardian FE--that is, they're generally nice... fungi who are Fanatic Spiritualist and nothing else, who have a patronizing (i.e. about as good as it gets with FEs) attitude towards me and +80 relations despite the fact that I've got -20 from being Fanatic Materialists and -10 from my purge policy.
Getting that close to their borders is still what I consider to be a pretty high risk move, only worthwhile because it will lock my primary enemy out from basically all coreward expansion, ensuring that when the time comes I'll be able to gobble up all the high-tech goodies on the Antina worlds, paving my way to get down to the FE in galactic south-west with the juicy ringworlds.
If they'd been militant isolationists I would never have founded a colony that close.
One thing you've really got to watch out for is researching Galactic Ambitions multiple times when you're close to a FE, since it's very easy to accidentally push your borders too close and start generating friction.
Another thing, notice how far back the fog of war is pushed? That's because I scouted the shit out of everywhere I could a long time before my colony ships started going out. I knew what was on the far rim of the galaxy before I founded any of the colonies I have that're even halfway towards the core. You don't have to survey every system when you enter it. Save one ship to survey, send one or two more out running as far as they can to fill in your starcharts before everyone blobs out.
Post by: Kot on May 30, 2016, 06:38:32 pm
Post by: Taricus on May 30, 2016, 06:44:26 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on May 30, 2016, 07:08:53 pm
Hmm. Then wouldn't it be cool if you got to use "prototypes" of the the research in certain localized areas? Like being able to put a new weapon on a single ship before the research is complete, or to use a mining tech on only one colony?
I'd say, put it in as a colony event: "A scientist has an idea for a radical new weapon. Should we invest in an engineering effort that will give us a prototype?"
Post by: Flying Dice on May 30, 2016, 09:25:58 pm
Geee, why does EVERY Humanity Fuck Yeah Empire must use that fucking eagle. I know we all aspire to be as cool as Imperium of Man from Wh40k, but come on, there are other cool symbols.Because I'm playing a fascistic militaristic shithole and there's few things authoritarians love more than symbolic callbacks to old heraldry? GW didn't invent the idea, you know?
Never mind that that's not even the goddamn Imperial Aquila knockoff. I'll refrain from calling you blind, but geez, the exact same symbol sheet has one that's a two-headed bird of prey which includes the grasping talons on either side of the tail plumes and vertically oriented wings with spread feathers. The one I used for that empire is fairly generic, and closer in form to the Starship Troopers one (which is in fact what I was aiming for, given that they're not total xenophobes).
Actually you can settle right next to a non-militant isolationist FE and most of the time they won't really care.
Yeah, but I like to at least pretend that my empire's leadership are justifiably worried about annoying the sleeping dragon. Games like this are too easy if you optimize a lot unless you've got the AI on a "cheats like a bastard" difficulty setting.
Post by: Not good with names on May 30, 2016, 10:07:57 pm
If anything I think a buff to going tall could be interesting. There's a few penalties for going wide, which mostly boil down to decreased relations with neighbors and slower teching. Unfortunately, those are also the same disadvantages you get for increasing the difficulty, and the solution (War and debris analysis) doesn't lend towards a tall style.
Spitballing I think maybe scaling policy cost with size to make happiness more difficult, so that going with social welfare isn't a no brainer 20% research bump.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 31, 2016, 01:13:52 am
Speaking of ending wars, it is extremely irritating that I have to lose 100 influence whenever the AI requests peace on a long war AND the AI spams peace offers. Literally spams them, and I have to lose 100 influence each time. And if I don't have 100 influence? Auto-Accepted!
Note, the feature is sound and dates back to the Democracies in Civilizations, but the abusive spam by the AI is broken. Let me finish conquering your system, then we'll talk! Where is the "Kill the Diplomats" feature?
(The fact that I was playing a Warmongering race that loves war was also...peculiar. I would have thought that denying a peace treaty as them would GAIN me 100 influence...)
Post by: Shadowlord on May 31, 2016, 01:21:00 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 31, 2016, 01:53:08 am
Yeah, it makes total sense. I said this in thread once already, it takes a lot more time and effort to disseminate and work a new discovery into infrastructure and practice across a large empire than across a handful of worlds. Don't think of the research timer as just the time spent investigating the phenomenon, but as everything from the initial inquiry up to the point where everything in your empire uses and supports it.
Take, for example, military R&D in the real world. Stuff that's on the battlefield today was prototyped ten or fifteen years ago. So when you research a component for your ships that isn't indicative of "this is possible now" but rather "we have built up everything and refined the technology such that we can use it as standard issue".
so, uhm, I hate bringing data to this, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditure_per_capita
smaller nation with more focus and even higher spending doesn't advance any faster than the top three (USA, Russia, China)
Post by: Flying Dice on May 31, 2016, 02:48:33 am
Yeah, it makes total sense. I said this in thread once already, it takes a lot more time and effort to disseminate and work a new discovery into infrastructure and practice across a large empire than across a handful of worlds. Don't think of the research timer as just the time spent investigating the phenomenon, but as everything from the initial inquiry up to the point where everything in your empire uses and supports it.
Take, for example, military R&D in the real world. Stuff that's on the battlefield today was prototyped ten or fifteen years ago. So when you research a component for your ships that isn't indicative of "this is possible now" but rather "we have built up everything and refined the technology such that we can use it as standard issue".
so, uhm, I hate bringing data to this, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditure_per_capita
smaller nation with more focus and even higher spending doesn't advance any faster than the top three (USA, Russia, China)
Uh. You do realize that there were two separate points there? Not to mention that it's rather fallacious to compare the logistical burden of incorporating a new innovation into a nation-state that holds territory on the subcontinental level to that of even a single planet, never mind a unified polity consisting of dozens of inhabited worlds with interstellar travel times measured in weeks and months, as if they were somehow equitable. A three-star state in Stellaris can (depending on spacing and FTL method) be traversed in days. A thirty star state could take a quarter of a year or more with some forms of FTL. Assuming no instantaneous technobabble communication exists (and certain events seem to hint that it doesn't), that's also how long it takes to send a message one way.
Bringing up contemporary military R&D cycles was solely for the purpose of illustrating how something might be possible and may even exist in a limited capacity without being fully implemented as standard equipment or doctrine. :|
Post by: Retropunch on May 31, 2016, 09:19:10 am
Yeah, it makes total sense. I said this in thread once already, it takes a lot more time and effort to disseminate and work a new discovery into infrastructure and practice across a large empire than across a handful of worlds. Don't think of the research timer as just the time spent investigating the phenomenon, but as everything from the initial inquiry up to the point where everything in your empire uses and supports it.
Take, for example, military R&D in the real world. Stuff that's on the battlefield today was prototyped ten or fifteen years ago. So when you research a component for your ships that isn't indicative of "this is possible now" but rather "we have built up everything and refined the technology such that we can use it as standard issue".
UH. You do realise that if you have ten planets full of scientists, resources and infrastructure you'd quickly be able to outplace two planets full of scientists and infrastructure. Each data 'trip' would be slower, but each exchange would be far more fruitful. Even if your the ability to quickly converse between yourselves doubled your efficiency and then doubled again due to an easier roll out, you'd still be much slower than 10 planets worth of scientists (who I assume would also have 10 lots of logicians).
Futhermore, What about if the 10 planet empire decided to concentrate each type of science on a different planet - you'd have little cross over, as biology would be on planet a and computing on planet b and explosives on c etc.? Combine that with picket ships to jump regularly to move data and it might take a week or two to move data long distances, but that'd be fine if you were all working on different parts of the problem or different problems.
More resources and scientists = faster research.
Post by: Exerosp on May 31, 2016, 10:03:39 am
Except it wouldn't work like that unless they could communicate with eachother well. What if they just covered the same thing that the majority of every other scientist have already covered?Yeah, it makes total sense. I said this in thread once already, it takes a lot more time and effort to disseminate and work a new discovery into infrastructure and practice across a large empire than across a handful of worlds. Don't think of the research timer as just the time spent investigating the phenomenon, but as everything from the initial inquiry up to the point where everything in your empire uses and supports it.
Take, for example, military R&D in the real world. Stuff that's on the battlefield today was prototyped ten or fifteen years ago. So when you research a component for your ships that isn't indicative of "this is possible now" but rather "we have built up everything and refined the technology such that we can use it as standard issue".
UH. You do realise that if you have ten planets full of scientists, resources and infrastructure you'd quickly be able to outplace two planets full of scientists and infrastructure. Each data 'trip' would be slower, but each exchange would be far more fruitful. Even if your the ability to quickly converse between yourselves doubled your efficiency and then doubled again due to an easier roll out, you'd still be much slower than 10 planets worth of scientists (who I assume would also have 10 lots of logicians).
More resources and scientists = faster research.
Post by: Retropunch on May 31, 2016, 10:13:56 am
Except it wouldn't work like that unless they could communicate with eachother well. What if they just covered the same thing that the majority of every other scientist have already covered?
I'd assume by the time you're a space faring civilisation you've mastered the ability to segregate work - or, as I said, you could divide up the sciences by planet groupings.
Think about something like missile development, you'd probably have a smallish section of your research staff working on that, and you could lob them all in one place (think atomic bomb projects) and let them get on with it. There's obviously roll out on top of that, but I'd imagine you'd have a pretty good idea of how to picket across data from jump points.
I'm not saying that it's a exponential curve, but more resources can ONLY SPEED UP SCIENCE.
Post by: Jopax on May 31, 2016, 10:30:33 am
It's not exactly an assembly line where more hands means faster assembly, past a certain point more people would probably be detrimental since coordinating that much manpower, especially with something that isn't a clear cut type of thing like development isn't exactly easy.
Say you're developing a new rocket, you have a 100 people working on it, they know the basics of rocketry and are able to start off with a sound design that they then iterate on until it's a viable product. If you make that a 1000 people they probably won't be any faster because it'll still be the same basic rocket they're iterating on, so a lot of them will either be repeating what others do, leading to nothing new, or will be chasing developmental dead ends which would turn out a waste of resources.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 31, 2016, 10:33:22 am
Except it wouldn't work like that unless they could communicate with eachother well. What if they just covered the same thing that the majority of every other scientist have already covered?
I'd assume by the time you're a space faring civilisation you've mastered the ability to segregate work - or, as I said, you could divide up the sciences by planet groupings.
Think about something like missile development, you'd probably have a smallish section of your research staff working on that, and you could lob them all in one place (think atomic bomb projects) and let them get on with it. There's obviously roll out on top of that, but I'd imagine you'd have a pretty good idea of how to picket across data from jump points.
I'm not saying that it's a exponential curve, but more resources can ONLY SPEED UP SCIENCE.
It's like you didn't even read any of the discussion we just had about how the research times are likely representative of not only the scientific study and engineering development but also distribution and standardization--it doesn't matter if one of your research teams has figured out how to build battleships efficiently if that knowledge isn't transmitted and put into practice.
Also, talking about specialization and compartmentalization of research? Have you played Stellaris? Like every other 4X, it tackles research projects with the sum total resources of your entire empire's relevant specializations.
Post by: andrea on May 31, 2016, 10:39:49 am
I must say, the production values are astounding, and that is before boosting them with edicts and such! right now, I could abandon all my core worlds, keep only the ringworld, and still be the most powerful empire in the galaxy! those things are amazing. I wonder if that is what happened to the fallen empire? they built this great habitat for themselves, then stopped caring about anything else, because they didn't need anything else anymore.
Post by: andrea on May 31, 2016, 10:55:40 am
Post by: TempAcc on May 31, 2016, 11:02:08 am
Anyway, I stopped playing stellaris for now. Kinda waiting till the game is more complete, so that will prob take one or two DLCs. Maybe I'll get some of those mods that change combat and add removed species traits back in and play more. Combat feels specially simplistic (in the bad way) atm with the whole ~the only efficient fleet is a mass of corvettes with high evasion~ thing.
Post by: Retropunch on May 31, 2016, 12:25:51 pm
Say you're developing a new rocket, you have a 100 people working on it, they know the basics of rocketry and are able to start off with a sound design that they then iterate on until it's a viable product. If you make that a 1000 people they probably won't be any faster because it'll still be the same basic rocket they're iterating on, so a lot of them will either be repeating what others do, leading to nothing new, or will be chasing developmental dead ends which would turn out a waste of resources.
But if you have 1000 scientists, that allows you to put 10 people on 100 different avenues or types of technology, rather than 10 on 10 different avenues. There are obviously diminishing returns, but there's no way its FASTER to have less people working on scientific development.
It's like you didn't even read any of the discussion we just had about how the research times are likely representative of not only the scientific study and engineering development but also distribution and standardization--it doesn't matter if one of your research teams has figured out how to build battleships efficiently if that knowledge isn't transmitted and put into practice.
Also, talking about specialization and compartmentalization of research? Have you played Stellaris? Like every other 4X, it tackles research projects with the sum total resources of your entire empire's relevant specializations.
It does however, allow you to have some scientists working on propulsion, and some on guns, and so forth. There would be problems in logistics, but you're balancing that by being able to tackle more areas/avenues of research simultaneously. Yes, Stellaris groups it all into three parts, but the whole thing was about it being somehow faster to research with less resources. I agree that there are diminishing returns, and that distribution and standardization would be resource consuming, but if you've got a two world empire it's not going to be faster in the long term than a 20 world empire full of thriving metropolises all putting out different ideas and avenues of research.
Post by: andrea on May 31, 2016, 12:49:39 pm
Post by: Neonivek on May 31, 2016, 03:55:20 pm
well, in stellaris you research faster by being bigger. just with diminishing returns. unless you do stupid things like having your whole empire full of 6 tile planets with one or less labs each. in that case you suffer greatly and rightfully so, since research coordination would be a nightmare.
The problem is that it EASILY gets to the point where you would go "Ok... can you just keep your research to the few planets I have that are good at it?" because the research penalty can get PRETTY high if you don't concentrate on research non-stop.
Heck in one game I had I lost on research pretty badly because I had the biggest empire by FAR, but didn't make EVERYTHING super research oriented.
Post by: Egan_BW on May 31, 2016, 04:06:17 pm
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 31, 2016, 04:14:03 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on May 31, 2016, 04:15:58 pm
Post by: Neonivek on May 31, 2016, 04:20:15 pm
Protip: if you don't focus on having good research, you won't have as good research as those who do.
It isn't that. I had good research.
But because I was really large it meant my supreme research meant a quarter as much as other empires.
So basically if I wanted to keep up, I'd have to build four times as many research planets as everyone else... even though I had four times the number of research points (and researcher bonuses) they did.
Imagine if in Civilization if for every city you had, you got less research.
Ultimately it means that if you want a research focus you have to keep a research focus throughout the game. Leading up to essentially there being a soft-cap for research.
Post by: Criptfeind on May 31, 2016, 04:26:42 pm
Imagine if in Civilization if for every city you had, you got less research.
Whew man. That's a big ask. I don't think I could possibly imagine such a radical thing. Or, to put it another way, that is how it works in Civ, yes.
Post by: Neonivek on May 31, 2016, 04:29:14 pm
Imagine if in Civilization if for every city you had, you got less research.
Whew man. That's a big ask. I don't think I could possibly imagine such a radical thing. Or, to put it another way, that is how it works in Civ, yes.
Really? Huh...
This is one of the weirdest series of things I heard.
Post by: Virtz on May 31, 2016, 04:44:22 pm
Only in Civ V AFAIK. Didn't work that way before.Imagine if in Civilization if for every city you had, you got less research.
Whew man. That's a big ask. I don't think I could possibly imagine such a radical thing. Or, to put it another way, that is how it works in Civ, yes.
It's also incredibly retarded and counter-intuitive. It's like rubber-banding in a racing game. All for the sake of "balance" achieved in the lamest, most gamey way possible.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 31, 2016, 05:05:46 pm
the civ 5 research penalty thing has been through many iterations, though. it was once the case that "infinite city sprawl" was the ideal strategy. it's pretty widely considered that the final version of civ 5, in which you pick exactly 3-4 ideal city spots, is pretty boring and nobody would seek to replicate it again.
the recent switch in Stellaris from 2% per pop to 10% per planet and 1% per pop seems like a pretty boring step towards what Civ 5 ultimately embodied: a game where your RNG start had a huge impact on your ultimate success.
(it also serves to highlight how underbaked Stellaris was, but that was evident from day 1 anyway)
Post by: TempAcc on May 31, 2016, 06:11:10 pm
Only in Civ V AFAIK. Didn't work that way before.Imagine if in Civilization if for every city you had, you got less research.
Whew man. That's a big ask. I don't think I could possibly imagine such a radical thing. Or, to put it another way, that is how it works in Civ, yes.
It's also incredibly retarded and counter-intuitive. It's like rubber-banding in a racing game. All for the sake of "balance" achieved in the lamest, most gamey way possible.
This. The last thing I want stellaris to be similar to is civ V.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 31, 2016, 06:17:08 pm
They determined that any further expansion would cause them to lose research!
Post by: Not good with names on May 31, 2016, 06:55:51 pm
Only in Civ V AFAIK. Didn't work that way before.Imagine if in Civilization if for every city you had, you got less research.
Whew man. That's a big ask. I don't think I could possibly imagine such a radical thing. Or, to put it another way, that is how it works in Civ, yes.
It's also incredibly retarded and counter-intuitive. It's like rubber-banding in a racing game. All for the sake of "balance" achieved in the lamest, most gamey way possible.
This. The last thing I want stellaris to be similar to is civ V.
Civ 4 had an expansion penalty in the form of financial maintenance, which was functionally the same as Stellaris except your financial condition affected your military as well (Actually harsher, since until you hit a certain number of cities it would increase the maintenance in all cities), which didn't result in Civ V stagnation.
I'm still in the camp that the research change
1) didn't functionally change research times. You're building farms to fill your tiles right? That research difference between pops 1-10 doesn't matter because you weren't going to have them on research anyway.
2) Was essentially just a nerf to single robot pop colonies that work a power plant. That = 2% research penalty for ~1 energy credit, ~20 naval capacity, at least now it's an 11% penalty to guide you away from making Improved influenceless frontier outposts for a one time cost of 400 minerals, and 200 energy.
If we had a Civ 5 system then it would be some crappy global food/happiness system where once you hit the ideal number of cities/systems there wouldn't be a point in expanding. Every ethic combination would have a graph with a peak in the middle of it, representing optimal number of systems. As it stands expansion is always good, as long as it's balanced with energy and research.
Post by: Astral on May 31, 2016, 10:17:22 pm
It was a little easier with the More Technology mod, as you could create buildings that provide no benefit on their own, but give adjacency bonuses to other tiles. Like that thing in the tutorial said other buildings do, but is currently limited to the Planetary Administration and its upgrades. Unfortunately, sector AI doesn't utilize them at all, but a decent grid pattern can yield far more output than simply stacking buildings as you are required to now.
My current game has me in complete control of approximately 1/3rd of the galaxy, and having taken over a tech hoarder Fallen Empire. But it still takes ~1-5 years to research fairly simple things, even with roughly 70 research oriented planets in sectors devoted to it, and about 1-2k research income for each field.
Post by: Taricus on May 31, 2016, 10:40:48 pm
Post by: Aedel on May 31, 2016, 10:57:00 pm
You're in trouble when things start taking over 70-80 months to complete.
is it wrong that most techs take 200-300 months for me to complete
i think im doing something a little big wrong
Post by: Astral on May 31, 2016, 11:04:40 pm
1-5 years is the norm. You're in trouble when things start taking over 70-80 months to complete.
Some techs were taking roughly 100 months or so. I get that it's a long-winded game, but after a long days conquer I want to sit back and see some new toys stream in when I've got over half my available planets devoted to research.
Edit: I made a simple mod here (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=695020223). It halves the current beta values of 10% per planet and 1% per pop to 5% per planet and .5% per pop. It also makes it so your homeworld (16 pop) doesn't count against your current tech research, as normally anything past 10 population will begin incurring a cost increase.
Post by: Exerosp on June 01, 2016, 12:17:04 am
Post by: Astral on June 01, 2016, 12:35:06 am
Post by: Taricus on June 01, 2016, 12:38:57 am
Post by: Liction on June 01, 2016, 01:17:16 am
Post by: Sirbug on June 01, 2016, 02:18:44 am
Some kind of measure to counter early landgrab snowballing into complete technological dominance is needed.
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 01, 2016, 03:19:14 am
Historically speaking, in real world population numbers didn't convert into research speed this well.
Some kind of measure to counter early landgrab snowballing into complete technological dominance is needed.
> Historically speaking
wat
do we even live on the same world?
tru there needs to be a door open to let empires falling back a comeback, but the rubber banding as it stands now it's just ridiculous.
Post by: Sergarr on June 01, 2016, 05:00:56 am
A square root function would work out quite nicely here, I think.
Post by: BFEL on June 01, 2016, 05:14:44 am
Still, that could also be very shitty and unfun.
Mostly I want to see things where Fallen Empires actually y'know...FALL. Like just collapse on their own instead of being super leet megaempires the whole game.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 01, 2016, 05:34:02 am
Am I the only one who also wants a way for empires to LOSE technology?
probably not, but most players would hate the feeling of technology being subtracted.
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 01, 2016, 05:35:10 am
Am I the only one who also wants a way for empires to LOSE technology? I'm not sure what the best way to implement it would be, possibly through events but that leaves things stupidly random. Though a Y2K style Crisis event would be kinda interesting, where all the tech storage databases in the galaxy basically fuck up all at once, leaving everyone with shitty tech again in the mid/late game.
Still, that could also be very shitty and unfun.
Mostly I want to see things where Fallen Empires actually y'know...FALL. Like just collapse on their own instead of being super leet megaempires the whole game.
it'd be interesting, you bomb enough of a planet and if a science building gets busted you have a % chance of losing a level in a random field, based on the total number of research centers in the bombed empire, so you could literally bomb people into stone age
Post by: IronyOwl on June 01, 2016, 07:42:30 am
It does however, allow you to have some scientists working on propulsion, and some on guns, and so forth. There would be problems in logistics, but you're balancing that by being able to tackle more areas/avenues of research simultaneously. Yes, Stellaris groups it all into three parts, but the whole thing was about it being somehow faster to research with less resources. I agree that there are diminishing returns, and that distribution and standardization would be resource consuming, but if you've got a two world empire it's not going to be faster in the long term than a 20 world empire full of thriving metropolises all putting out different ideas and avenues of research.
Yes, at large population sizes, you start having diminished returns. The key thing here is that they'll still be positive, i.e. adding more people would not decrease your actual research speed. It may decrease the implementation speed, but that's much better simulated by requiring you to construct special buildings to be able to gain actual advantages from technologies (as it's usually done in Civilization series).It might. Modern pharmaceutical research, for instance, is heavily, heavily gated by a number of agencies, policies, agendas, and so on. The idea that colonizing Mars would actually slow us down on that front really isn't hard to believe.
A square root function would work out quite nicely here, I think.
I'd like a more fluid game on paper, but even I have to admit a 4X where you're constantly losing half your empire would be hard to make satisfying. And let's face it, Stellaris is having enough trouble being itself without trying to do a ballerina dance on top of that.Am I the only one who also wants a way for empires to LOSE technology?
probably not, but most players would hate the feeling of technology being subtracted.
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 01, 2016, 07:48:13 am
Quote
It might. Modern pharmaceutical research, for instance, is heavily, heavily gated by a number of agencies, policies, agendas, and so on. The idea that colonizing Mars would actually slow us down on that front really isn't hard to believe.
but that doesn't mean smaller countries with less string attached to research advance any faster
Post by: Sheb on June 01, 2016, 07:54:30 am
Post by: Neonivek on June 01, 2016, 07:59:10 am
What if you had to 'research' tech twice, oncee to discover them, and once on each planet (at a tiny fraction of the cost) to implement them there? Basically, like building buildings, but with a cost in research point?
A lot of techs lack a social cost anyway.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 01, 2016, 10:10:41 am
What if you had to 'research' tech twice, oncee to discover them, and once on each planet (at a tiny fraction of the cost) to implement them there? Basically, like building buildings, but with a cost in research point?
This could make sense if it applied to types of worlds and world modifiers instead. Running a power planet on an arid world probably presents different challenges than running a power plant on an ocean world. Similarly a planet with heavy gravity or unstable tectonics presents different mining challenges than a "normal" planet.
Then again most of our planets for most of the game will be exactly the same types, so maybe it mostly wouldn't matter.
When it comes to ships, I think implementing a Hearts of Iron-type system of production runs would have been better. Especially if repeated builds unlocked MoO2-style weapon variants, like PD/heavy/etc variants of weapons techs.
Post by: Sheb on June 01, 2016, 10:38:38 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 01, 2016, 11:28:44 am
Well, it would represent the cost of training the planet in the use of the new tech.
Maybe that's money or influence... more research points is thematically the wrong cost.
Post by: IronyOwl on June 01, 2016, 06:23:07 pm
That's exactly what it means. Otherwise China and India would be the most advanced countries on the planet, or at absolute worst tied. They're not, largely because they've historically been too preoccupied with internal bullshit to advance their scientific understanding of the world very well. In fact, purely coincidentally I'm sure, they're some of the most stereotypically "still has isolated semimedieval villages and vast swathes of poverty" places in the world.QuoteIt might. Modern pharmaceutical research, for instance, is heavily, heavily gated by a number of agencies, policies, agendas, and so on. The idea that colonizing Mars would actually slow us down on that front really isn't hard to believe.
but that doesn't mean smaller countries with less string attached to research advance any faster
Well, explicitly. You can still assume Warship Engines Tier 2 have a social cost in that putting them on your ships requires putting them everywhere so that your entire empire is set up to produce fuel, parts, expertise, and so on. At that point getting every vehicle in your empire to switch engines and every power plant to produce different batteries and every mechanic to completely retrain themselves and so on makes sense as an ordeal.What if you had to 'research' tech twice, oncee to discover them, and once on each planet (at a tiny fraction of the cost) to implement them there? Basically, like building buildings, but with a cost in research point?
A lot of techs lack a social cost anyway.
Research is probably thematically the closest you'll get in a single resource, as it represents figuring out how things work. Figuring out how to slot a new invention into the current system in such a way that it actually gets used is probably the most reasonable approximation of trying to introduce a New Thing.Well, it would represent the cost of training the planet in the use of the new tech.
Maybe that's money or influence... more research points is thematically the wrong cost.
Credits work if you're literally bribing everyone, paying for everyone's training, or losing raw income from the disruption, all of which require a somewhat more coherent and powerful government than you can probably expect from even an effective dictatorship (an ineffective one can probably just make it so, but nothing tends to work right in those at the best of times so I don't think you're gaining ground that way). Same issue with minerals, plus the fact that material renovations are only part of the problem.
Influence works pretty well because it's your go-to "this is what we're doing now" resource, but I don't think it's supposed to be cleared out periodically like that.
Post by: Persus13 on June 01, 2016, 07:13:59 pm
Post by: Glloyd on June 01, 2016, 07:42:14 pm
Post by: Neonivek on June 01, 2016, 07:48:13 pm
^ but also it now increases costs based on how many planets you have, which is like saying that Andorra should be more technologically advanced than Canada, or something like that.
Well I'd think Sealand, which is a country contained entirely on a oil rig, would technically be the technological capital of the world.
Post by: Glloyd on June 01, 2016, 07:55:32 pm
^ but also it now increases costs based on how many planets you have, which is like saying that Andorra should be more technologically advanced than Canada, or something like that.
Well I'd think Sealand, which is a country contained entirely on a oil rig, would technically be the technological capital of the world.
They're not recognized internationally though, so maybe the Vatican? They're even a fanatic spiritualist Theocratic Oligarchy.
Post by: Neonivek on June 01, 2016, 07:57:34 pm
^ but also it now increases costs based on how many planets you have, which is like saying that Andorra should be more technologically advanced than Canada, or something like that.
Well I'd think Sealand, which is a country contained entirely on a oil rig, would technically be the technological capital of the world.
They're not recognized internationally though, so maybe the Vatican? They're even a fanatic spiritualist Theocratic Oligarchy.
Well in Marvel that is... stupidly accurate. The Vatican with their ancient magical technology to create modern day Crusades.
So there we go! even Marvel Agrees with you!
Post by: IronyOwl on June 01, 2016, 11:33:50 pm
Historically, China was one of the most advanced countries on the planet, as was India, to a lesser extent. China has a pretty sizable urban population now as well. United States is third in population, and its where a lot of research and technological advances have been occurring for the past century.
^ but also it now increases costs based on how many planets you have, which is like saying that Andorra should be more technologically advanced than Canada, or something like that.Was it? I was under the impression that it invented a decent amount of stuff initially, but was never really cutting edge except by comparison during slumps. Gunpowder being the obvious poster child, where they came up with it centuries before everyone else got a hold of it, but weren't really involved in making it The New Thing the way Europe did.
It's true that the US is both fairly large and pretty advanced, but they're a pretty distant third in pop and still not exactly racing ahead of the pack.
You have to admit, when Sealand decides to install more efficient power outlets, they have waaaaaaaaaay fewer committees and deep-seated traditions to go around to do it. Not like Double Sealand, where the North Rig and the South Rig keep disagreeing on import criteria and safety regulations.^ but also it now increases costs based on how many planets you have, which is like saying that Andorra should be more technologically advanced than Canada, or something like that.
Well I'd think Sealand, which is a country contained entirely on a oil rig, would technically be the technological capital of the world.
I'm pretty sure Marvel is large and stupid enough that it agrees with everyone eventually.They're not recognized internationally though, so maybe the Vatican? They're even a fanatic spiritualist Theocratic Oligarchy.
Well in Marvel that is... stupidly accurate. The Vatican with their ancient magical technology to create modern day Crusades.
So there we go! even Marvel Agrees with you!
Post by: PTTG?? on June 02, 2016, 01:08:09 am
Post by: Greenbane on June 02, 2016, 06:17:03 am
Going to have to make an empire for Stellaris called Francia, ruled by a Karling. That's what all my games suggests should have inevitably happened.
"Francia" is merely France in Spanish. ;)
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 02, 2016, 06:31:47 am
Regnum Francorum then.Going to have to make an empire for Stellaris called Francia, ruled by a Karling. That's what all my games suggests should have inevitably happened.
"Francia" is merely France in Spanish. ;)
Post by: jocan2003 on June 02, 2016, 02:14:59 pm
Post by: Astral on June 03, 2016, 01:21:59 am
Basically it makes initial colonization painful to your research (20% research cost increase per planet colonized), but as you gain more population the cost decreases (1% reduction per population), providing incentive to try and get planets up to par before colonizing more, at the risk of crippling your research otherwise. Should provide an interesting balancing effect; a tall empire that colonizes worthwhile worlds would have less trouble than a wide empire that colonizes everything.
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 03, 2016, 01:44:35 am
Historically, China was one of the most advanced countries on the planet, as was India, to a lesser extent. China has a pretty sizable urban population now as well. United States is third in population, and its where a lot of research and technological advances have been occurring for the past century.^ but also it now increases costs based on how many planets you have, which is like saying that Andorra should be more technologically advanced than Canada, or something like that.Was it? I was under the impression that it invented a decent amount of stuff initially, but was never really cutting edge except by comparison during slumps. Gunpowder being the obvious poster child, where they came up with it centuries before everyone else got a hold of it, but weren't really involved in making it The New Thing the way Europe did.
It's true that the US is both fairly large and pretty advanced, but they're a pretty distant third in pop and still not exactly racing ahead of the pack.
.
The problem with all this reasoning is that you are looking at data trough a slit to find evidences of population correlating with research while ignoring all other thing that actually do (like gdp and research/military spending). Sure if you look hard enough you can find at least some examples where it holds true, which means jack shit.
(http://www.decisionskills.com/uploads/5/1/6/0/5160560/4472668.png?641)
Post by: Criptfeind on June 03, 2016, 08:38:07 am
Is that it?
Post by: PTTG?? on June 03, 2016, 01:39:01 pm
Historically, China was one of the most advanced countries on the planet, as was India, to a lesser extent. China has a pretty sizable urban population now as well. United States is third in population, and its where a lot of research and technological advances have been occurring for the past century.^ but also it now increases costs based on how many planets you have, which is like saying that Andorra should be more technologically advanced than Canada, or something like that.Was it? I was under the impression that it invented a decent amount of stuff initially, but was never really cutting edge except by comparison during slumps. Gunpowder being the obvious poster child, where they came up with it centuries before everyone else got a hold of it, but weren't really involved in making it The New Thing the way Europe did.
It's true that the US is both fairly large and pretty advanced, but they're a pretty distant third in pop and still not exactly racing ahead of the pack.
.
The problem with all this reasoning is that you are looking at data trough a slit to find evidences of population correlating with research while ignoring all other thing that actually do (like gdp and research/military spending). Sure if you look hard enough you can find at least some examples where it holds true, which means jack shit.
(http://www.decisionskills.com/uploads/5/1/6/0/5160560/4472668.png?641)
To be fair, the only people in the united states who actually eat margarine are divorcees from Maine.
Post by: BFEL on June 03, 2016, 07:50:13 pm
http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
Is that it?
Yes, that was it. Thank you!
Found one that actually sounds like it could be directly correlated if you squint at it hard enough.
"Total Revenue Generated by Arcades and Computer Science Doctorates awarded in US"
Another one.
"Juvenile Drug Arrests (US) and Number of Kids Killed by Their Parent" :(
Post by: Cruxador on June 04, 2016, 07:52:22 am
Found one that actually sounds like it could be directly correlated if you squint at it hard enough.Well, they're all directly correlated. It's causation you're thinking of. I think that the causal relationship is probably indirect anyway but those definitely could be well related.
"Total Revenue Generated by Arcades and Computer Science Doctorates awarded in US"
Another one.
"Juvenile Drug Arrests (US) and Number of Kids Killed by Their Parent" :(
Post by: Karnewarrior on June 06, 2016, 10:43:11 pm
Besides, plasma cannons dominate regular empires but apparently not fallen empires. And I want juicy ringworlds.
Post by: Majestic7 on June 06, 2016, 11:23:48 pm
Post by: Orb on June 06, 2016, 11:56:30 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 07, 2016, 03:50:45 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 14, 2016, 07:28:53 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Gene Warriors, Xenomorphs and Psi Warriors all take 360 days to manufacture, Synth Armies 120 days and Assault Troops 60 days. Clone armies take 30 days to manufacture. The issue lies though in how meaningless production time is for armies.
For starters it only affects buildup of armies, and once you have 10 armies you are set forever (only needing to build more armies for sectors out of transport warp reach - and only if you don't have transports designable). Attrition is meaningless, attacking units very rarely die in planetary invasions since planetary invasions are afterthoughts - the cleanup of what the space crew has already done.
It would be nice for example to have transport ships (or at the very least attached soldiers) to be able to conduct boarding actions of enemy ships, or a planetary invasion system that isn't so unsatisfying and unbalanced. As it stands once one has gained void supremacy, there is nothing the defending planet can do to stop defeat. It would be neat for example if you had to take every tile on the planet tile by tile, so an ocean based species would find fighting a conventional war against a desert based guerilla exceedingly difficult without resorting to militiarist tactics (like full orbital bombardment). And why are all tiles the same climate sphere for that matter on all the planets? It is sad that you can't have a tundra species living on your ice caps, a jungle species in your jungle, desert species on your equator and temperate species in the upper and lower bands all living on one planet.
I also like the idea of tile by tile invasion, because then attrition means something and if the defender can hold onto their production cities and such, then they can still wage war from the ground up (as well as actually making planetary shields worth something). Starvation would actually have to be implemented too, for real, but the infamy system is broken so PI have decided it's more realistic that you can't starve your enemy into surrendering or starve your own people through incompetence/malignancy ~o.o~
Plus - how amazing would it be for stuff like the special units having special interactions with the tiles be? So Xenomorphs conduct wanton devastation and kill all resistance with great efficiency, but if you don't have a kill switch for them, may end up infesting certain tiles (tile blocker?). Or psi warriors being able to take tiles without collateral damage due to their unique form of precision warfare?
And good god - how come the cloning vats don't let you clone pops?
I will say this though, if you keep things small and limited to as few systems as possible, things are pretty neat. It seems the later game, large empire crunch is a little bit more unfinished
Post by: PTTG?? on June 14, 2016, 08:33:26 pm
Where is this stuff?
Post by: umiman on June 14, 2016, 08:37:42 pm
On reflection, espionage is totally missing from the game. There's room still to add a whole class of leaders -- call them diplomats -- and start trying to steal tech, assassinate alien leaders, sabotage starports...
Where is this stuff?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Flying Dice on June 14, 2016, 09:04:18 pm
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 15, 2016, 02:22:32 am
On reflection, espionage is totally missing from the game. There's room still to add a whole class of leaders -- call them diplomats -- and start trying to steal tech, assassinate alien leaders, sabotage starports...
Where is this stuff?
that's like my worst fear, game mechanic added trough even more specialist, because it's not annoying enough to manage all sector governors, scientist and fleet leaders as it is. I'm spending points in long lived races just because reshuffling them every so often as they die like flies is *that* annoying.
Post by: Glloyd on June 15, 2016, 01:16:14 pm
Post by: Retropunch on June 16, 2016, 01:41:55 am
Before LoSboccacc's comment, I actually thought this was the HoI thread, because the same thing applies there. Dammit Paradox. At least that felt more finished then Stellaris though. That first release was not good, and they don't seem to have any plans to fix what I consider to be the fundamental problems with Stellaris, which also sucks because it has a ton of potential, but it's all gonna be locked behind DLC.
Agreed, after playing both games I'm now thoroughly pissed off with Paradox. Both games have been designed from the bottom up with DLC in mind - that to me is a terrible, terrible direction for games to go in. Yes, the Paradox DLCs are mostly pretty hefty, but they've purposefully locked out major elements so that you're forced to buy them to get the proper experience.
Perhaps they can redeem themselves with the free patches - I think everyone would go crazy if they tried to peddle a DLC now, so they're probably gonna have to do some serious change ups before we get to that point.
Post by: Majestic7 on June 16, 2016, 02:19:23 am
I see several things that could be improved and expanded, but... Yeah, espionage is missing, but is shitty espionage system worth it? That is just checking a checkbox from some arbitrary list of game qualifications without thinking about its value. For example, I think Distant Worlds is the best 4X to come out for a long time. I think it has shitty espionage system. It is useful, yes, but it is boring and unattached to most of the other parts of the game. You use it to affect the main game - like through sabotage and stealing technology - but the main game has no real effect on espionage. It is just this separate thing used to for arbitrary bonuses and maluses. Same thing in Civ and Beyond Earth etc. (Or EU4 where I mainly use spying just for fabricating claim; I think CKII has the best intrigue among Paradox games.)
I'd rather see an interesting, dynamic espionage system that, for example, could be the source and driving force behind event chains and so forth, instead of another system of ticks and tacks. I don't even really miss espionage; I imagine infiltrating other species would be pretty hard. What I miss the most right now is more middle game content and more differences in technology. That is, more rare technologies that are only unlocked by certain combinations of events and ethos etc.
Post by: Glloyd on June 16, 2016, 02:33:46 am
DelayedNinjaEdit:
What are the fundamental things lacking in Stellaris?
Honestly, I think the biggest issue with Stellaris is something that hasn't really been addressed by the devs. Right now, there's zero replayability. I think part of this stems from the fact that the game is an awkward mashup between a grand strategy and a 4X, but there's really no reason to play twice because once you've played to the end once, you've pretty much seen it all outside some flavour events. Putting aside the fact that right now the mid-endgame is a boring repetitive slog, something that is important in most 4Xs (and strategy games in general) is making the different sides you play as actually feel different from each other, and Stellaris does not accomplish that. Each race is only different by cosmetics, because you can customize ethics and gov type, and the ethics and gov types only provide small percentage bonuses one way or another. Playing as an individual materalist science government and a communal, spiritualist oligarchy will give you pretty much the same experience, outside of the silly flavour events that always happen for spiritualist. There's a severe lack of unique mechanics for gov types/ethics. Yeah, you're more able to have slaves as a communal species, and more able to purge as a xenophobic species, but that won't really change how you play your game. Everything still has the same boring ass endgoal, which is just to paint the map in your colour by slogging through hundreds of boring identical wars with all the federations that form. And even if the endgame events weren't totally broken, you can see all three in one playthrough, giving no reason to play again to try and find more. Even the planets you can settle makes no real difference. All species are guaranteed two habitable planets within close-range and past that it's just either a boon or an inconvenience depending on how lucky you are with RNG, until you get to the midgame and the point becomes moot.
I'm sure unique mechanics for gov types and ethics will come in the inevitable rush of DLC, but they should be ashamed of the state they released the game in. By the midgame I had to force myself to keep playing because I wanted to see the endgame stuff, and once I realized how boring and broken they were, I quit. Tried again as a different race with different ethics, gov, etc, but it was just more of the same. That IGN was spot on, and I personally would've given it a lower score than 6.5, because only half of one game was any fun.
It sucks, I've been playing Paradox games since HOI2, and this is the first one that I've actively disliked. I love 4Xs and I love Paradox, but I just don't find Stellaris to be any fun past the early game, and I have no desire to play it again. We'll see what they do with DLCs, but I'm pretty disappointed.
EDIT: Honestly, I think the fact that discussion in this thread dried up so quickly is evident that it is lacking somehow. Is anyone here still playing this regularly? I remember when CKII came out that thread was rapidfire for months, it's still very active. In the first few months there was all sorts of cool stories and playthroughs. Here there's been just over 20 posts on this thread since the start of June for a game that came out less than a months ago, and most of those were related to DLC or the argument about how the tech penalties for having a large empire don't make sense by comparing it to real countries.
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 16, 2016, 02:37:15 am
Enemy military ship rarely have a reason to leave their border so you cannot even stalk the border and catch them in transit to a neutral system most of the time.
Generally the whole game seems just to swing between growth and warring phases with nothing in between to spice things up. Even endgames are for the most part a setup for more warring, with only the
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Majestic7 on June 16, 2016, 03:03:04 am
Personally, I've played 100 hours or so, but I think 70 of them have been early game. Basically I've been starting new games over and over again. Expanding, exploring anomalies and so forth is so much fun. Middle game is where I tend to lose interest and when I return to the game, I just start all over again.
Paradox has already said they will work on the middle game events, so yeah, I look forward to seeing what the game will be in the future. Right now I think it is the best 4X that has come out recently, beating GalCiv etc handily. However, of the new-ish games Distant Worlds is still better. I just see Stellaris taking over DW in a year or so with new content and mechanics.
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 16, 2016, 03:13:12 am
http://www.pocketspaceempire.com
there's a thread with a demo floating around. if you can get behind the bare bone graphics, aliens conflicts and mid game is much more interesting there.
Post by: Glloyd on June 16, 2016, 03:13:51 am
I don't agree with replayability, but I've heard the complaint from other sources. So I certainly acknowledge that many people have the same issue. It seems to be a matter of taste.
Personally, I've played 100 hours or so, but I think 70 of them have been early game. Basically I've been starting new games over and over again. Expanding, exploring anomalies and so forth is so much fun. Middle game is where I tend to lose interest and when I return to the game, I just start all over again.
Paradox has already said they will work on the middle game events, so yeah, I look forward to seeing what the game will be in the future. Right now I think it is the best 4X that has come out recently, beating GalCiv etc handily. However, of the new-ish games Distant Worlds is still better. I just see Stellaris taking over DW in a year or so with new content and mechanics.
Yeah, don't get me wrong, the early game is great. But you said it yourself, that you lose interest in the middle of the game. What you're saying is that two thirds of the game are bad enough that they don't keep your interest. To me, that's a bad game. The lategame especially is no fun at all, and I had to force myself to play any of it. I think I'd rather cut a finger off then try to conquer the whole galaxy at this point though, at least I'd get an interesting story out of the former.
Post by: Majestic7 on June 16, 2016, 03:54:35 am
Post by: Glloyd on June 16, 2016, 04:08:42 am
Post by: BFEL on June 16, 2016, 07:25:39 am
Either way, I've said my piece, and I don't see this game getting to a state that I would personally consider good without a bunch of DLCS, which isa shame.exactly what we expected from the start
Post by: umiman on June 16, 2016, 11:42:47 am
I think it's also absolutely vital there be a giant superlaser capable of destroying planets. It's a vital component of 4x space games and the quality of such a game is indirectly related to this ability.Planet destroyers from DW, too.
For example, MoO2 had an incredible cutscene (back in the day) of you cutting a planet in half with the stellar converter.
Honestly, if a space game lacks planet destruction, something's gone seriously wrong somewhere in the design process.
---------------
There's a Reddit thread of things people think are missing: https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/4kuvej/what_would_you_like_to_see_in_stellaris_thats/
---------------
You should also be aware that about a month ago Paradox informed the guy running Steam Spy (http://steamspy.com/app/281990) to remove all Paradox listings from his website. You can draw whatever conclusions you want but I think it's because they wanted to obscure their dwindling playerbase for their recent games from affecting their IPO.
Post by: Sirbug on June 16, 2016, 01:32:19 pm
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 16, 2016, 01:41:26 pm
Until they fix cat-and-mouse doomstack on doomstack action that war currently is, I'd rather them not give ability to blow up planets.
Stellaris, a 4x that punishes you for expand, extermination is boring, exploiting is barebone but hey, exploration is
edit: actually scratch that, exploration is repetitive a.f. as mechanic, it's just the fluff that's good, if you are into reading.
Post by: Sirbug on June 16, 2016, 02:03:07 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 16, 2016, 02:34:45 pm
EDIT: Honestly, I think the fact that discussion in this thread dried up so quickly is evident that it is lacking somehow. Is anyone here still playing this regularly? I remember when CKII came out that thread was rapidfire for months, it's still very active. In the first few months there was all sorts of cool stories and playthroughs. Here there's been just over 20 posts on this thread since the start of June for a game that came out less than a months ago, and most of those were related to DLC or the argument about how the tech penalties for having a large empire don't make sense by comparing it to real countries.Lots and lots of modding and experimentation is required before a full gaming session can be completed, and the killing detail is that besides the Crisis species, the nomads and spacefaring xenos, the species of Stellaris are by virtue of totally random RNG usually less different from one another than CKII individuals are from one another. It is also particularly noticeable that religious ethos governments don't have religions represented, just some vague notion of spiritualness, so you get that funny situation where fanatical purifiers absolutely hate each other for being heretics but once one conquers the other becomes one massive fanatical family without issue ;P
I think it's definitely worth taking the time to filling out loads of species of your own creation (OC species donut steal e.t.c.) and giving them character so in addition to RNG elements, you have rich narrative species to interact with them and vastly increase playability.
Tales of Enigmatic Miroslavs:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Currently they have managed to amass the largest Empire, the largest Navy and formed a federation (http://i.imgur.com/S3haFdP.jpg) with which they have dedicated themself to making the galaxy a more liberal and multispecial galaxy through diplomacy and trade - with their leaders and their immense lifespans having helped them considerably. Four Miroslav Emperors and Empresses have died of old age and the first Ubaric Admiral still lives. Usually they only end up as a middling power or get gobbled up by a more warlike species, but as time goes on, age shows its benefits over its weaknesses.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Fortunately for the Galaxy, when their species was rising in power their Habitated Space was caught between the Hegemonic crossfire of three greater Imperial Species - thus resulting in the Scyllan Balkan Wars, in which greater Empires fought to carve up their species into many protectorates.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
After 3 years of Interstellar combat, the Miroslav Clone Army assaulted the Capital of the Zaxxoid Territory. (http://i.imgur.com/Xf4sgSe.png) Technology had at last bridged the gap of innate Zaxxoid superiority; all of their planets were abandoned apart from their Capital, the Capital itself becoming a client state of the newly arisen Miroslav Empire. From the ashes of this 150 year old war, a new Interstellar Hegemony would emerge
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The Thembolon have since become the military arm of the Just League; whilst the Miroslav Empire has agreed to live peacefully besides their Infested Space, every Emperor and Empress to date has refused them migration access to the Miroslav Star Systems.
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The Kroll do not learn quickly, they hate the company of other Kroll and are weak and incapable of supporting great industry or war. They value scientific pursuit, individualism and federation - and that is where their true value lies, in the value of friendship. Other species like fluffy tail and planets benefit greatly from their joyous presence. With that said, I have never seen them ever form a federation before some Imperial Power conquered them and used their fluffiness as adorable mascots for the Imperial Species. The only thing of note is that this time the Kroll were conquered by Reptilian Cat people. (http://i.imgur.com/5F6HgDI.png)
Of course, a lot of modding goes a long way to helping make a narrative. For 150 years the Miroslav Stars were more accurately described as the Miroslav Star - being entirely limited to one star system. After the Great Zaxxoid Crusades were finally defeated however, the Miroslav were ready to take to the stars in the first phase of expansion. Terraforming had allowed the Miroslav to maximize output in one star system, and with one small part of the galactic horizon under their control, the potential was near-limitless. The galactic community at large was initially quite concerned, but after signing trade treaties exchanging Miroslav minerals for their energy, the galaxy was friendly enough to begin giving multilateral sensor link cooperation. The M-Stars were one with the Galactic Community!
I think now Espionage is not needed, if you can get Sensor Link information which details you all of the defences of potential target planets, fleet sizes, compositions AND you can check the individual specifications of rival ships to develop the hard counter to them. All the same, the Miroslavs were not looking to invade them - rather, looking to see what they were up to. Being a spiritual Empire of utmost ethical concern, it was intriguing to see how their galactic peers managed with terraforming and settling of extreme worlds.
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Post by: Flying Dice on June 16, 2016, 07:41:41 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on June 16, 2016, 08:53:45 pm
But hey, my friends like it.
Post by: Flying Dice on June 16, 2016, 09:05:03 pm
Even if the final product is great, it's a fucking irritating process to get there, and not exactly easy on the pocketbook.
I said this a while back, but when I was modding it and bugfixing there was a lot of shit that should have been caught if they did any playtesting at all, stuff that I was able to identify, locate, and fix within minutes as a total novice both in modding generally and to modding Paradox games.
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 16, 2016, 09:45:30 pm
Removed that what's left is mostly aggravating clickfest. Here what an honest trailer would sound like "Manage dying scientist!" "Shuffle trough all your buildings to find the one which unlocked an update" "build whatever ship you like since it doesn't matter fuck all" "wage total war and take up to THREE planets at a time"
How are they gomma fix it, release a dlc that allpws to conquer FOUR planets?
The game systems are paper thin honestly. It is an emjoyable game for it has quite the fluff to discover but as far as gameplay is concerned there is too much unimportant stuff taking too much of your time. here's a planet with a ship as large as a mountain! +10 engineering research and that's it. Federation president change and triggers a huge war? Here manually respond to this dozen fleets roaming in your space warping around as soon as your fleet arrives. oh it's sixty uear since game start everyone important now dies, hope you saved up on that influence!
I reread that initial controversial stellaris review and now I've to say it's spot on http://m.ign.com/articles/2016/05/09/stellaris-review
Post by: Astral on June 16, 2016, 11:18:24 pm
The utter lack of impactful late game technology, at least to me, is also a huge downer. Coming off games like Star Ruler and Galactic Civilizations, where you can get things that destroy planets and solar systems or create new ones, getting minor 5-10% bonuses stretching to infinity makes technology just about getting slightly better guns (aka particle/tachyon lances) and spamming as many ships as possible until the hard locked 1000 fleet cap.
Not to say I haven't thoroughly enjoyed myself, and further enjoyed tinkering with mods and making some basic ones of my own, but it's got a long way to go until "vanilla" is a worthy game on its own right.
Post by: Flying Dice on June 16, 2016, 11:33:49 pm
Post by: Glloyd on June 16, 2016, 11:36:51 pm
Like, don't get me wrong. I'm sure that in 2019 or so, with seven DLCs and a pile of mods, it'll be a good game. But it's not that game right now.
And that's the unfortunate part of it. I'm not sure I'm willing to spend 80+ dollars on top of the $40 to get a good game.
Post by: Astral on June 16, 2016, 11:43:16 pm
Post by: Sirbug on June 16, 2016, 11:44:35 pm
Pooling all the minerals into civ-wide pool instead of letting planets produce buildings on their own pace was a mistake. Sectors are a joke partially because of it.
Post by: Glloyd on June 17, 2016, 02:11:46 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 17, 2016, 02:59:43 am
Honestly, I don't think we're going to be seeing anything new from Pdox for a little while. They've got four games to make DLC for, and I think they're going to stretch them as much as they can, while working on a new engine in the background. Isn't HOI IV the last game on Clausewitz? It better be at least.
I don't understand, why didn't they build upon CKII or Vae Victis? Those had plenty interesting mechanics.
Post by: Cruxador on June 17, 2016, 04:53:09 pm
why didn't they build upon CKII?They did, for four years so far and a new expansion is coming out in a while.
Post by: Flying Dice on June 17, 2016, 06:11:32 pm
Think he meant using some of those systems in Stellaris.why didn't they build upon CKII?They did, for four years so far and a new expansion is coming out in a while.
Post by: Persus13 on June 17, 2016, 06:31:40 pm
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on June 17, 2016, 07:20:53 pm
I hope we get better political and diplomatic interactions in the future. Federations are screaming for a DLC, for example. There should be different type of federations with policies of their own and forming a federation should include talks on what these policies are. For example, is the leader elected in a popular election or circulated among the members or what, does the federation tax the population, who pays for the federal fleet and so forth. I think federations should share anomalies and anomaly results too, making it easier to achieve the precursor quest line, for example.The developers could look to Space Empires V for a skeletal policy implementation.
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 17, 2016, 07:58:21 pm
Post by: Glloyd on June 17, 2016, 08:55:22 pm
Goodness, I am desperately trying to like this game, but the more I try to play it the more it reaches the point of tedium, especially when it comes to planet upgrades :/
It just gets worse later in the game. You'll have to force yourself to "finish" one, if you don't die from boredom first. The game's just not good right now.
Post by: Neonivek on June 17, 2016, 09:58:04 pm
Not that it is saying much...
Post by: Puzzlemaker on June 18, 2016, 12:26:42 am
Post by: Neonivek on June 18, 2016, 01:23:39 am
Meh, it's still fun and I got a lot of hours on it, and they are releasing a lot of free content.
I feel like whenever someone says free content announced quickly after release they should be required by LAW to put it in quotations: "Free Content"
Just like how... Warhammer Total War had "Free Content"
Or how The Sims 4 had "Free Content"
Yeah totally free content... not unfinished content being released late in order to give the game a quicker release date and often fix the game up.
Post by: IronyOwl on June 18, 2016, 01:53:31 am
Or... I guess they're adding new portraits? That'd count as free content, because it's not like the existing portraits were insufficient.
Post by: Neonivek on June 18, 2016, 01:58:22 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 18, 2016, 05:55:24 am
So "free content" seems like a pretty logical name for it.
Post by: Majestic7 on June 18, 2016, 06:20:27 am
Reviews for the game are still universally positive and many players enjoy the game even now, while looking forward to new things instead of feeling the game is currently utterly crippled. Yet there is a small and vocal portion who seem to think Stellaris raped their mom and I'm curious to know why is that? I see many deficiencies in the game, but I still got a lot of fun game time out of it. Now I'm just looking forward to major patches, new content and mods.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 18, 2016, 06:23:02 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 18, 2016, 06:48:59 am
The amount of negativity from you guys is quite amazing. Did you wade in expecting a pure 4X or a pure Paradox grand strategy and were disappointed because it is neither? Not baiting, I'm genuinely curious.
I was expecting more stories emerging in game and from game-play, not just fluff. that's what burned me, the aar narrating all the science events as if those were in game.
Post by: Flying Dice on June 18, 2016, 06:52:24 am
The amount of negativity from you guys is quite amazing. Did you wade in expecting a pure 4X or a pure Paradox grand strategy and were disappointed because it is neither? Not baiting, I'm genuinely curious.
Reviews for the game are still universally positive and many players enjoy the game even now, while looking forward to new things instead of feeling the game is currently utterly crippled. Yet there is a small and vocal portion who seem to think Stellaris raped their mom and I'm curious to know why is that? I see many deficiencies in the game, but I still got a lot of fun game time out of it. Now I'm just looking forward to major patches, new content and mods.
I expected a 4X in the vein of Paradox grand strategy. What I got was a shitty 4X and a shitty Paradox game with obvious gaps in systems and content.
Granted, at this point we should all expect Paradox games to be incomplete buggy shit on release, but Stellaris went above and beyond with some really terrible high-level design decisions and a plentiful helping of bugs that were solely due to sheer laziness and a lack of playtesting. It's fun for the first ten hours or so, when you're still in early-game content and haven't already seen everything that's there. Everything past that point is dull and repetitive. And that's after I modded the hell out of it.
Post by: IronyOwl on June 18, 2016, 07:23:14 am
Well it's free, it's new, and it's content.Technically the game itself is "free content" once you've paid for it. Most people use the term to describe "above and beyond" additions, which generally require satisfaction with wherever they're adding onto.
So "free content" seems like a pretty logical name for it.
The amount of negativity from you guys is quite amazing. Did you wade in expecting a pure 4X or a pure Paradox grand strategy and were disappointed because it is neither? Not baiting, I'm genuinely curious.Well, yeah. There's not enough there for it to be mechanically good or thematically good, so we're left with a bland game that really seems to have intended to be amazing, but was left half finished.
Reviews for the game are still universally positive and many players enjoy the game even now, while looking forward to new things instead of feeling the game is currently utterly crippled. Yet there is a small and vocal portion who seem to think Stellaris raped their mom and I'm curious to know why is that? I see many deficiencies in the game, but I still got a lot of fun game time out of it. Now I'm just looking forward to major patches, new content and mods.Wasn't there a bunch of hubbub about a major review being negative, which their post-release dev diary acknowledged while explaining all the things that went wrong?
I've seen people say they are/have enjoyed the game as is, especially before they've played a ton. I don't think I've seen many people talk about how fun the game is without acknowledging problems elsewhere or mentioning something about future content. The idea that the game isn't done yet is pretty much unanimous, which some people seem to be interpreting as "early access woo" and others seem to be interpreting as "we'll sell you the rest in six months."
But I mean, it's not like people haven't been explaining all this. If anything, I don't think people have been very forthcoming as to why they like the game.
Post by: Retropunch on June 18, 2016, 12:24:46 pm
I've seen people say they are/have enjoyed the game as is, especially before they've played a ton. I don't think I've seen many people talk about how fun the game is without acknowledging problems elsewhere or mentioning something about future content. The idea that the game isn't done yet is pretty much unanimous, which some people seem to be interpreting as "early access woo" and others seem to be interpreting as "we'll sell you the rest in six months."
This is exactly the reason why I went from an ardent fan (after about 10 hours) to being really, really annoyed/disappointed/angry at it after playing it further. It starts to show it's shallowness really quickly, and whilst if it was just a shallow sort of game I'd be alright with it, but the shallowness has been purposefully put there with gaping holes left for DLC to slot in. That's what pisses me off - it's the fact that they've designed the entire game around DLC.
There has been a wave of negativity about it, and I believe that's why they've had to start putting out the major free patches and so on. I don't doubt it'll eventually become great, but they'll have to make huge changes to get there. Other Paradox games have been slightly guilty of the same thing, but this is the one where it feels like they've just rushed something to release and decided that they'd make it actually good with DLC.
On top of that, there are a lot of weird design decisions and just plainly broken bits (which I imagine will get fixed with free patches) but all those things do not make for a great gaming experience. I guess I just expected a lot more, and that's why I was pissed off.
Post by: Flying Dice on June 18, 2016, 12:36:41 pm
The problem with Stellaris is that it was clearly supposed to be a complex, relatively deep game, but Paradox launched it something like six months or a year too early, and given their track record it's basically guaranteed that they're going to finish it with a series of $20 DLCs that add basic systems and mechanics that were clearly intended to be included from the start.
Post by: Retropunch on June 18, 2016, 12:50:04 pm
Yeah, that's the thing, I don't mind shallow games, as long as they're intended to be shallow, are engaging in what they do offer, and are priced appropriately. Take Neptune's Pride, that's an extremely abstracted, simple 4X, but it's free to play (with a few premium benefits for a cheap fee), doesn't pretend to be anything more, and has a lot of potential for fun mindgames with other players.
The problem with Stellaris is that it was clearly supposed to be a complex, relatively deep game, but Paradox launched it something like six months or a year too early, and given their track record it's basically guaranteed that they're going to finish it with a series of $20 DLCs that add basic systems and mechanics that were clearly intended to be included from the start.
Couldn't have said it better. It's the fact that the game was designed around having more systems/things to do, but all of those things have been held back into DLC. It's like the mid-game lull (which is almost universally recognised) that wouldn't be a thing if they had a few more gameplay mechanics like espionage and character based mechanics.
Post by: PTTG?? on June 18, 2016, 01:36:23 pm
Post by: sambojin on June 18, 2016, 09:28:11 pm
Is it more finely tuned to multiplayer (with AI elements) than it is to a single player experience?
Are the things you think of as thin simply kept that way so it doesn't entirely become an RNG clusterfuck when playing it against a few friends?
It's certainly a 4X at the start, and decent 4X's always have elements of grand strategy.
Is it because it's boring to play against the AI (ie: every 4X game ever, mostly) that you're not getting the subtlety? Because roflstomp is the expected outcome against an AI?
Compare Stars! single player. Then play it multiplayer. It's a totally different game. Especially when coalition wins aren't possible, so your favourite ally is still about to become an enemy if the opportunity presents itself. Friends until your death.
Paradox did so much EUIV MP stuff, and Stellaris would be so good as a small MP non-co-op game, that I'm almost sure the winning strats haven't been worked out yet. And it's a bit more nuanced than people realize.
(yep. broken late-game events are stupid though. And coalition wins in MP as a "standard game" that people play)
Post by: sambojin on June 18, 2016, 09:48:32 pm
As a question, how good are the "message your opponent/ally" systems in-game? Between players?
I know Stars! had basic message options, but it was expected that you email diplomacy. Yes, late 90's and all that. It worked beautifully.
But agreements get made by people. AIs get forced into diplo-ingame-thingamagigs. And that is where this game is great. People agreeing, or backstabbing the hell out of each other. At the correct time, of course.
But most importantly, so you win. And no-one else.
Secondary question: Do you play multiplayer 4X games so you and your friends can roflstomp the AI (considering it's an almost foregone conclusion in SP, why do you need the help)? Or do you play them to beat your friends, and AI players are a useful tool to that end?
Thus the unrevealed subtlety to the systems so far. About 4-8 players would make for a great game, if there could only be one winner.
Post by: Flying Dice on June 18, 2016, 10:06:58 pm
The fact that player diplomacy can occur outside of the structure of a game's diplomatic system doesn't excuse having a shitty, bare-bones diplomatic system. Aurora has a more in-depth diplomacy system, and that's literally just a set of different factors which result in your diplomacy score with a race going up (and eventually allowing trading, alliance, &c.) or down (resulting in war). Same shit as Stellaris, but there's no expectation of anything more fleshed out and not really any need for it. By contrast, Stellaris is also just a set of different factors which result in your diplomacy score with a race going up (eventually allowing... disadvantageous alliances and federations with the shitty little powers) or down (resulting in them thinking that you're mean).
Stellaris diplomacy is bad enough that a system where the expected outcome of all diplomatic encounters is either a slow, inevitable spiral into a war of annihilation or a de facto agreement of non-interference is more interesting and more functional. That's what I'm saying. All of the little nuances that made diplomacy, DoWs, and peace treaties palatable in other Paradox games are missing. No espionage, nothing beyond alliances/feds and the shittiest implementation of research agreements I've ever seen (since the AI basically never grants any of the other simple agreements that were included), incredibly limited options for DoWs and peace deals, and a lack of the standard historical context to help you fill in the gaps for all this shit.
Poland negotiating a royal marriage with Portugal and allying with the Ottomans for a war against the Papal State may not be interesting mechanically in EUIV or whatever, but the informed context adds some quality to it. Nobody ever gave two shits about the Republic of Gor'Blax entering a research agreement with the Mary Sue Confederation in which one or both might potentially get a bonus to their research... on a single tech... if they happen to roll a tech card which has already been researched by the other... within the brief time span of the agreement in which they will likely only research five or six new technologies. >.>
Post by: sambojin on June 18, 2016, 10:19:11 pm
The diplomacy system is pointless between human players. It is meant to be "win or bust" for them, and diplo just gives short term advantages. It does it with AIs too. Thus my "outside of the shitty diplomacy system" thoughts. Is that intended?
It's nothing like a normal Paradox game in that context. Should it be like normal PD games?
Well, probably. That's what people want. But it won't be a good 4X if it happens, it'll be PD games in space. Which would be cool as well. The line straddle is annoying though, between the genres.
I want DoW3 to be good too. More like DoW1 though :)
Post by: Kanil on June 18, 2016, 10:24:31 pm
Secondary question: Do you play multiplayer 4X games so you and your friends can roflstomp the AI (considering it's an almost foregone conclusion in SP, why do you need the help)?
Pretty much. Playing against them is about as much of a foregone conclusion.
Post by: Flying Dice on June 18, 2016, 10:30:14 pm
And, again, there's nothing preventing it from being a good 4X. The bones are there, it's just the typical Paradox MO preventing it. Because good 4Xes generally have good diplomacy systems and decent AI (or, at the very least, ones appropriate to the game). The line straddle is there only because they half-assed everything instead of committing to anything.
Post by: sambojin on June 18, 2016, 10:53:28 pm
I'm still pretty sure that in a smaller galaxy, with 3-8 human players, at a good speed, this still has the chance of being a pretty good 4X.
Tech doesn't matter? It probably doesn't when the galaxy is huge, and there's tonnes of species all doing research.
A few systems gained for winning a war isn't floating your boat? Less stars available makes it a reasonable win.
Co-op vs AI? Well, you are human. Of course you collude better..... Outside the diplomacy system in the game as well. But small moves with bigger impacts in a smaller environment count, even with the AI.
Bland species? Maybe because there's a literal fuck-tonne of them. Just gotta have less of them so they have at least some personality.
I'm not forgiving the massive faults in the game, I'm just saying that the game-types people often play aren't its strong point. Don't believe the hype. There is not a maximal galaxy size with interesting species and interactions available.
There probably is a nice little MP 4X game sitting in the game options though. One where, in a nice little galaxy, shit really does matter.
Post by: Glloyd on June 18, 2016, 11:19:25 pm
Don't be coy about abbreviations. It's not cute or funny.
And, again, there's nothing preventing it from being a good 4X. The bones are there, it's just the typical Paradox MO preventing it. Because good 4Xes generally have good diplomacy systems and decent AI (or, at the very least, ones appropriate to the game). The line straddle is there only because they half-assed everything instead of committing to anything.
Also they don't have the shitty wargoal system. And usually different races/factions etc usually have something unique to them. But in Stellaris, you can have 20 Communal Fanatic Materialists who prefer Continental worlds if RNG goes that way, and they all play exactly the same despite being radically different species.
Post by: Retropunch on June 19, 2016, 05:29:23 am
I'm not forgiving the massive faults in the game, I'm just saying that the game-types people often play aren't its strong point. Don't believe the hype. There is not a maximal galaxy size with interesting species and interactions available.
There probably is a nice little MP 4X game sitting in the game options though. One where, in a nice little galaxy, shit really does matter.
If Stellaris put itself forward as a small MP 4x then I'd be all for it, however it tries to be the exact opposite of that, and fails due to a missing or broken mechanics. If it happens to accidentally be a good small MP 4x (I'm not sure if it is or not) then that's completely incidental, and therefore beside the point.
To be honest, I think it's got a ton of potential and it'll eventually be great, my problem with it is that it was designed from the bottom up with massive DLC shaped holes for proper mechanics to go in. Things like the diplomacy and agent systems are clearly just placeholders for proper fleshed out systems.
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 19, 2016, 06:04:36 am
Post by: Zangi on June 19, 2016, 10:58:50 pm
Post by: Not good with names on June 20, 2016, 12:31:56 am
I got over 100 hours and it's going to be improved. Solid game design that may be lacking some flavor or quality of life, but I have played Paradox before so I knew exactly what I was getting into. At the very least it's not fundamentally flawed (I'm looking at you, CIV V and that damn unit AI), so I wouldn't see why anyone would write it off immediately.
Post by: Zangi on June 20, 2016, 01:50:25 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on June 20, 2016, 01:59:11 am
Is the honeymoon over?For me it's mostly because I started an affair with HOI4. Once Asimov's out I'll probably start Stellarising again.
Post by: IronyOwl on June 20, 2016, 02:03:33 am
I'm not forgiving the massive faults in the game, I'm just saying that the game-types people often play aren't its strong point. Don't believe the hype. There is not a maximal galaxy size with interesting species and interactions available.What about it makes it good for small MP games? Everything you've mentioned sounds like innate features of a specific group of people playing in a specific manner that they enjoy. The combat and conquest systems are shit and there's almost no interaction possible between two empires beyond murdering each other, so... what makes this any better than awesome backstabbing in any other game?
There probably is a nice little MP 4X game sitting in the game options though. One where, in a nice little galaxy, shit really does matter.
You could (relatively unsuccessfully) make the same case about how it's more of an RP game than a 4X, and that people bitching about it missing features are playing too mechanically. But it doesn't really do anything to promote or support that kind of play, so that's not a better argument than you could make about literally any game.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 20, 2016, 05:40:10 am
Is the honeymoon over?At this point I'm just patiently waiting in the bedroom while she does her hair. When the 1.2 patch comes out I expect a lot of the current issues to be cleaned up a bit, enough for me to have another go at a nice long game. Meantime I'm having a little summer fling with Mein Fuhrur
Post by: mainiac on June 20, 2016, 10:06:51 am
Meantime I'm having a little summer fling with Mein Fuhrur
https://youtu.be/ZW0DfsCzfq4?t=35s
Post by: Xgamer4 on June 20, 2016, 01:39:54 pm
Post by: Cruxador on June 20, 2016, 09:04:31 pm
The amount of negativity from you guys is quite amazing. Did you wade in expecting a pure 4X or a pure Paradox grand strategy and were disappointed because it is neither? Not baiting, I'm genuinely curious.I went in knowing the design goals of the game, but hoping for it to be polished and high quality. That's not where it was at release. I expected that, but I was still surprised by the degree to which it was true.
Quote
Reviews for the game are still universally positiveThis is objectively false.
Quote
and many players enjoy the game even now, while looking forward to new things instead of feeling the game is currently utterly crippled. Yet there is a small and vocal portion who seem to think Stellaris raped their momYou're being disingenuous. People who criticize Stellaris are people that find it at least partly enjoyable and who want the new things to improve it. Saying it is heavily flawed now is not the same as saying it shouldn't be fixed. In fact, it's the opposite of that.[/quote]
I guess what I'm saying is, Stellaris lends itself well to spoken or written diplomacy. The actual diplomacy system is mostly just there to allow you to interact with AI players, not humans.Compare this to Paradox's previous work, where diplomacy is a substantial part of the meat of the game.
Is the honeymoon over?I'm not playing the game until September, though life circumstances are influencing that even more than the unsatisfactory state of the game. I'd probably give it a serious go again after Asimov otherwise.
Post by: Neonivek on June 20, 2016, 09:09:44 pm
Is this is STILL one of the best Space 4x games I ever played... featuring a LOT of the content that is usually expected of that genre (even if it is often in a dinky manner).
But then again... the 4x space games are usually... pretty bland and boring. So this game weasels into my top 5 via no competition.
Post by: Malus on June 20, 2016, 10:13:27 pm
What is kind of sad for me...Yeah, this is pretty much how I feel too. I don't think Stellaris is a phenomenal game -- not yet -- but it's one of the most engaging 4X games I've played anyway. It needs more mechanics, more depth, more complexity -- but it's a deeper game than most of its competition as-is. It's certainly deeper than GalCiv 3, Endless Space, Masters of Orion, et al. Distant Worlds and Aurora are on a different level, but Stellaris can probably reach DW after it gets a few meaty expansions.
Is this is STILL one of the best Space 4x games I ever played... featuring a LOT of the content that is usually expected of that genre (even if it is often in a dinky manner).
But then again... the 4x space games are usually... pretty bland and boring. So this game weasels into my top 5 via no competition.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on June 20, 2016, 10:41:15 pm
I want to get it two years later, when all dlcs will be in.
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 21, 2016, 02:29:22 am
At this point I'm just patiently waiting in the bedroom while she does her hair.
LoL more like she went straight out of the bathroom and looking at me in the eyes said - "no bjs till I'm fifty"
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 21, 2016, 11:03:43 am
Quote
Battleship Class Weapons. Some Battleship front sections will be repurposed for an XL size weapon slot. There are currently four ship sizes but only three sizes to weapons, creating an imbalance. Also, Battleships should have fewer small weapon slots and have to rely on screens of smaller ships.Fuck, part of the great fun of battleships is building up capital doomfleets without corvettes buzzing around :<
Quote
Living Solar Systems: Little civilian ships moving around, etc.Little graphical things like that really make the cake
"Goodbye Stellaris, I'm going to see another game."At this point I'm just patiently waiting in the bedroom while she does her hair.LoL more like she went straight out of the bathroom and looking at me in the eyes said - "no bjs till I'm fifty"
Then fifty years later the spark is reignited in horrendous, expensive OAP romance, after all the scars have been patched
Post by: umiman on June 21, 2016, 11:33:54 am
It's like you met this girl on a dating site and you two seemed to hit it off really well. From her pictures she looked super fit and she seemed to carry herself off well. Not to mention you got to talk to her friends and they made you think she was great. When you decide to meet however, turns out she doesn't have money for the cab fare to get there so after some hesitation you decide to just pay for that.At this point I'm just patiently waiting in the bedroom while she does her hair.
LoL more like she went straight out of the bathroom and looking at me in the eyes said - "no bjs till I'm fifty"
She arrives. She looks pretty but she's shallow and extremely materialistic. You get the feeling she's not all there. She's fun to be with at first, but soon you realize two things. One, she seems to be just repeating what people have said before. Two, she's actually only 14-years-old. You were just completely bedazzled initially by her looks to notice.
So after an awkward first
You take another look at Stellaris. She eyes you coquettishly, though you can't help but remind yourself how young she is, especially when compared to her father.
You realize what she might be when she becomes an adult, her pedigree might take her far.
But for now, you toss Stellaris into the bushes and jump into the arms of Crusader Kings II.
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 21, 2016, 11:36:02 am
10/10It's like you met this girl on a dating site and you two seemed to hit it off really well. From her pictures she looked super fit and she seemed to carry herself off well. Not to mention you got to talk to her friends and they made you think she was great. When you decide to meet however, turns out she doesn't have money for the cab fare to get there so after some hesitation you decide to just pay for that.At this point I'm just patiently waiting in the bedroom while she does her hair.
LoL more like she went straight out of the bathroom and looking at me in the eyes said - "no bjs till I'm fifty"
She arrives. She looks pretty but she's shallow and extremely materialistic. You get the feeling she's not all there. She's fun to be with at first, but soon you realize two things. One, she seems to be just repeating what people have said before. Two, she's actually only 14-years-old. You were just completely bedazzled initially by her looks to notice.
So after an awkward firstconta-meeting, you finally drop her back off at her place. You're feeling a bit regretful at the whole affair and kinda want your cab fare back (along with the other expenses she managed to accrue along the way). The door opens and 'lo and behold. Her dad is there. It's motherfucking Crusader Kings II. He's shirtless, abs glistening with sweat like he just finished another exhilarating workout. Hair parted in that perfect way that accentuates his perfect face. his eyes brimming with the spark and wisdom of age. He smiles a bit at you, knowingly with a dash of smugness that comes across as just beautiful in every way. There are a few scars on his chest which mark the signs of his intense battle to get to where he is. His hand decorated with the blood of the heathen. His magnificent DEUS VULT under the towel that he greets you in, huge in size and bursting with... DLC.
You take another look at Stellaris. She eyes you coquettishly, though you can't help but remind yourself how young she is, especially when compared to her father.
You realize what she might be when she becomes an adult, her pedigree might take her far.
But for now, you toss Stellaris into the bushes and jump into the arms of Crusader Kings II.
Post by: TempAcc on June 21, 2016, 11:47:47 am
Its good to be (crusader) king.
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 21, 2016, 11:57:23 am
It's like you met this girl on a dating site and you two seemed to hit it off really well. From her pictures she looked super fit and she seemed to carry herself off well. Not to mention you got to talk to her friends and they made you think she was great. When you decide to meet however, turns out she doesn't have money for the cab fare to get there so after some hesitation you decide to just pay for that.At this point I'm just patiently waiting in the bedroom while she does her hair.
LoL more like she went straight out of the bathroom and looking at me in the eyes said - "no bjs till I'm fifty"
She arrives. She looks pretty but she's shallow and extremely materialistic. You get the feeling she's not all there. She's fun to be with at first, but soon you realize two things. One, she seems to be just repeating what people have said before. Two, she's actually only 14-years-old. You were just completely bedazzled initially by her looks to notice.
So after an awkward firstconta-meeting, you finally drop her back off at her place. You're feeling a bit regretful at the whole affair and kinda want your cab fare back (along with the other expenses she managed to accrue along the way). The door opens and 'lo and behold. Her dad is there. It's motherfucking Crusader Kings II. He's shirtless, abs glistening with sweat like he just finished another exhilarating workout. Hair parted in that perfect way that accentuates his perfect face. his eyes brimming with the spark and wisdom of age. He smiles a bit at you, knowingly with a dash of smugness that comes across as just beautiful in every way. There are a few scars on his chest which mark the signs of his intense battle to get to where he is. His hand decorated with the blood of the heathen. His magnificent DEUS VULT under the towel that he greets you in, huge in size and bursting with... DLC.
You take another look at Stellaris. She eyes you coquettishly, though you can't help but remind yourself how young she is, especially when compared to her father.
You realize what she might be when she becomes an adult, her pedigree might take her far.
But for now, you toss Stellaris into the bushes and jump into the arms of Crusader Kings II.
Spoiler: mfw (click to show/hide)
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on June 21, 2016, 12:15:16 pm
It's like you met this girl on a dating site and you two seemed to hit it off really well. From her pictures she looked super fit and she seemed to carry herself off well. Not to mention you got to talk to her friends and they made you think she was great. When you decide to meet however, turns out she doesn't have money for the cab fare to get there so after some hesitation you decide to just pay for that.wtf
She arrives. She looks pretty but she's shallow and extremely materialistic. You get the feeling she's not all there. She's fun to be with at first, but soon you realize two things. One, she seems to be just repeating what people have said before. Two, she's actually only 14-years-old. You were just completely bedazzled initially by her looks to notice.
So after an awkward firstconta-meeting, you finally drop her back off at her place. You're feeling a bit regretful at the whole affair and kinda want your cab fare back (along with the other expenses she managed to accrue along the way). The door opens and 'lo and behold. Her dad is there. It's motherfucking Crusader Kings II. He's shirtless, abs glistening with sweat like he just finished another exhilarating workout. Hair parted in that perfect way that accentuates his perfect face. his eyes brimming with the spark and wisdom of age. He smiles a bit at you, knowingly with a dash of smugness that comes across as just beautiful in every way. There are a few scars on his chest which mark the signs of his intense battle to get to where he is. His hand decorated with the blood of the heathen. His magnificent DEUS VULT under the towel that he greets you in, huge in size and bursting with... DLC.
You take another look at Stellaris. She eyes you coquettishly, though you can't help but remind yourself how young she is, especially when compared to her father.
You realize what she might be when she becomes an adult, her pedigree might take her far.
But for now, you toss Stellaris into the bushes and jump into the arms of Crusader Kings II.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 21, 2016, 12:20:04 pm
Post by: mainiac on June 21, 2016, 12:27:45 pm
Post by: Teneb on June 21, 2016, 01:28:29 pm
9 months later umiman gave birth to a beautiful mod but CKII refused to acknowledge paternity.umiman then proceeds to start a faction to place the mod in the patch. The faction ends in sadness as he tragically dies in a manure explosion.
Post by: umiman on June 21, 2016, 04:15:27 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/dvTleeA.gif)9 months later umiman gave birth to a beautiful mod but CKII refused to acknowledge paternity.umiman then proceeds to start a faction to place the mod in the patch. The faction ends in sadness as he tragically dies in a manure explosion.
Post by: Flying Dice on June 21, 2016, 06:20:47 pm
That was worth more money than Stellaris is right now.
Post by: Glloyd on June 21, 2016, 07:15:46 pm
perfect 5/7
That was worth more money than Stellaris is right now.
I definitely got more enjoyment out of that than the Stellaris mid/endgame.
Post by: Descan on June 21, 2016, 07:39:24 pm
Post by: JumpingJack on June 21, 2016, 08:03:52 pm
still a better love story than twilightSnip.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-C2uMrMyD5bA/U9auZQbiZNI/AAAAAAAAVM0/uFluXxyxfws/s1600/I+didn't+need+to+see+that.jpg)
Post by: Orange Wizard on June 21, 2016, 09:27:26 pm
Asimov beta update is out. Just opt in from Stellaris properties beta tab.Noice
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 21, 2016, 10:04:50 pm
Spoiler: The Only Thing That Made Me Stop and Stare from the Patch Notes (click to show/hide)
Post by: Glloyd on June 21, 2016, 10:19:51 pm
Spoiler: The Only Thing That Made Me Stop and Stare from the Patch Notes (click to show/hide)
Honestly, that should just be the default. The sector's system as is is really stupid.
Post by: Orange Wizard on June 21, 2016, 10:55:01 pm
It's an easy fix, in my opinion, to keep the core systems cap, and allow construction etc. inside sectors with an influence cost to doing so. Better AI would also be nice, but such is Paradox.
Post by: Malus on June 21, 2016, 11:09:45 pm
From a big picture point of view, I think the sector system is going to be key to making the game more of a GSG and less of a vanilla 4X. Treat them more like vassals in CK2. They should have their own elections, and optionally you can intervene or force your own leaders to run in them. Some kind of centralization policy could determine how much power and influence sectors have: at the lowest centralization levels, your sectors behave more like tributaries than cohesive parts of your empire.
Factions are cool, but they're not enough (yet).
Post by: sprinkled chariot on June 22, 2016, 01:32:48 am
1) Fleet of warships with refined designs surpassing everything ever built outside of fallen empires
2) Finished research. Technological level of everyone short of fallen empires is pathetic.
3) 78 % population is made from free synthetic bros, who are just awesome. And they are happy with their FREEDUMS, so they are outproducing everyone in the galaxy.
4) Surplus of every resource
5) Awesome long living wise experienced leaders
6) Bunch of vassal states all around to absorb the first strike of theoretical enemy with any conventional engine( will not work against fallen empires, probably)
7) Legions of genetically modified spehss muhreens for devastating deep strikes
8 ) Reasanoble policies, which make everyone even more happy and productive
9) All key points protected by superior defensive fortresses
10) Small garrison of robotic soldiers on every planet to protect from sudden attacks
To sum up, we have utopia with enough power not to care about miserable plebs with their blue lasers.
The AI is not stupid enough not to ruin that, right?
Lets open the console and type observe.
> AI makes useless fleets of outdated awful shipdesigns, that I forgot to delete
> AI starves himself of resources with mass producing this set of designs
> AI starts opressing robobros triggering synth rebellion chain of events
> AI changes all the policies in the most mentally retarded way possible, enraging everyone and ruining economics
> AI starts ten pointless wars with everyone( there is absolutely nothing to gain from them, really)
> AI gets REKT by robobros deciding to fight for their stolen FREEDUMS
Sector AI turned out to be somewhat smarter then grand AI.
Post by: Egan_BW on June 22, 2016, 01:37:26 am
Post by: Cruxador on June 22, 2016, 06:49:05 am
Post this as a steam review. More people deserve to see it.It's like you met this girl on a dating site and you two seemed to hit it off really well. From her pictures she looked super fit and she seemed to carry herself off well. Not to mention you got to talk to her friends and they made you think she was great. When you decide to meet however, turns out she doesn't have money for the cab fare to get there so after some hesitation you decide to just pay for that.At this point I'm just patiently waiting in the bedroom while she does her hair.
LoL more like she went straight out of the bathroom and looking at me in the eyes said - "no bjs till I'm fifty"
She arrives. She looks pretty but she's shallow and extremely materialistic. You get the feeling she's not all there. She's fun to be with at first, but soon you realize two things. One, she seems to be just repeating what people have said before. Two, she's actually only 14-years-old. You were just completely bedazzled initially by her looks to notice.
So after an awkward firstconta-meeting, you finally drop her back off at her place. You're feeling a bit regretful at the whole affair and kinda want your cab fare back (along with the other expenses she managed to accrue along the way). The door opens and 'lo and behold. Her dad is there. It's motherfucking Crusader Kings II. He's shirtless, abs glistening with sweat like he just finished another exhilarating workout. Hair parted in that perfect way that accentuates his perfect face. his eyes brimming with the spark and wisdom of age. He smiles a bit at you, knowingly with a dash of smugness that comes across as just beautiful in every way. There are a few scars on his chest which mark the signs of his intense battle to get to where he is. His hand decorated with the blood of the heathen. His magnificent DEUS VULT under the towel that he greets you in, huge in size and bursting with... DLC.
You take another look at Stellaris. She eyes you coquettishly, though you can't help but remind yourself how young she is, especially when compared to her father.
You realize what she might be when she becomes an adult, her pedigree might take her far.
But for now, you toss Stellaris into the bushes and jump into the arms of Crusader Kings II.
Post by: JimboM12 on June 22, 2016, 09:34:27 am
Post this as a steam review. More people deserve to see it.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
You mind if I
Post by: umiman on June 22, 2016, 09:47:30 am
Go ahead, just link the thread or something.Post this as a steam review. More people deserve to see it.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
You mind if Iquotesteal that for my steam review of the game?
Post by: JimboM12 on June 22, 2016, 10:04:46 am
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 22, 2016, 11:35:33 am
Post by: Xgamer4 on June 22, 2016, 02:40:22 pm
I like what they're trying to do with the sector system, but the AI definitely needs improvement, or you need a better way of telling it what to do.
From a big picture point of view, I think the sector system is going to be key to making the game more of a GSG and less of a vanilla 4X. Treat them more like vassals in CK2. They should have their own elections, and optionally you can intervene or force your own leaders to run in them. Some kind of centralization policy could determine how much power and influence sectors have: at the lowest centralization levels, your sectors behave more like tributaries than cohesive parts of your empire.
Factions are cool, but they're not enough (yet).
Something that probably should be tinkered with is allowing factions to form with the ultimate goal of becoming their own sector, based on something like distance from empire center, differences in population makeup, ability of central government to exert control (so an additional concern if you intentionally, long-term, run past the Core cap), etc. I'm not sure how well it'd work in practice, but on paper it seems like their might be potential.
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 22, 2016, 02:50:40 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on June 22, 2016, 03:02:08 pm
In the dev diary, they mentioned that sectors were supposed to tie into factions much more heavily, so hopefully that's in the queue.I like what they're trying to do with the sector system, but the AI definitely needs improvement, or you need a better way of telling it what to do.
From a big picture point of view, I think the sector system is going to be key to making the game more of a GSG and less of a vanilla 4X. Treat them more like vassals in CK2. They should have their own elections, and optionally you can intervene or force your own leaders to run in them. Some kind of centralization policy could determine how much power and influence sectors have: at the lowest centralization levels, your sectors behave more like tributaries than cohesive parts of your empire.
Factions are cool, but they're not enough (yet).
Something that probably should be tinkered with is allowing factions to form with the ultimate goal of becoming their own sector, based on something like distance from empire center, differences in population makeup, ability of central government to exert control (so an additional concern if you intentionally, long-term, run past the Core cap), etc. I'm not sure how well it'd work in practice, but on paper it seems like their might be potential.
I think that part of the problem is that the AI empires expand at a ridiculous rate, thereby swallowing up huge chunks of the map and making the game basically a galactic-scale sumo match.In Stellaris' defense, this is an issue with pretty much every 4X. It's still unfortunate and intersects poorly with a bunch of other issues, though.
Post by: Flying Dice on June 22, 2016, 03:09:10 pm
By the by, anyone tried it yet? Patchnotes changed "core planet" to "core system" and I'm curious if that's a typo/unimplemented change or if they actually did it.
Post by: umiman on June 22, 2016, 03:14:46 pm
Yeah, every 4X I've played where the AI aren't potatoes is dominated by the initial colonization race.It's intended.
By the by, anyone tried it yet? Patchnotes changed "core planet" to "core system" and I'm curious if that's a typo/unimplemented change or if they actually did it.
Post by: PTTG?? on June 22, 2016, 04:16:20 pm
Ok, here's my alternative drive idea:
Leap Drive: No maximum range. Actual travel time is instant. However, ships have both a moderate cooldown-on-arrival state, and a warmup period that is proportionate to the distance traveled, and canceling a jump resets the warmup entirely. The entire transit, from warmup to arrival, takes slightly more time than Warp would in a nonstop straight line. Additionally, ships preparing to jump have increased energy upkeep. The advantages are that you can always take the most direct route between two points, and that ships can effectively change their minds partway through the jump, although they lose all the progress they made. Attempting to jump across the galaxy would take multiple years of warmup, and a significant energy cost!
Post by: Flying Dice on June 22, 2016, 06:20:23 pm
Still better than Hyperdrive in all-FTL matches though. :V
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 22, 2016, 06:22:46 pm
Post by: Teneb on June 22, 2016, 06:44:50 pm
Still better than Hyperdrive in all-FTL matches though. :VHyperdrive actually can be great at war, since it allows for hit-and-run strikes (since you don't need to go to the edge of a system to leave it).
EDIT: Okay, I got to ask since I would rather believe that I am doing something wrong rather than the alternative: is there a way to stop sector AI from emancipating slaves? I want to enslave the pops on a planet, but it keeps reverting the decision thus allowing for a massive independence faction (rather than an even split between docile and rebel slaves).
Post by: Flying Dice on June 22, 2016, 09:58:21 pm
Hyperdrive only games are the only ones where Fortresses become linchpinsYeah, I play pretty much nothing except Hyperdrive-only now. The others allow for too much stupid leapfrogging and chasing in addition to what you mentioned about fixed defenses. It also helps slow down the colonization boom.
Post by: mainiac on June 22, 2016, 11:32:40 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on June 23, 2016, 04:14:58 am
Fug
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 23, 2016, 05:56:19 am
I slowed down the colonization boom with a quick fix mod that massively lowered population growth. The problem isn't that it's too easy to grab planets, it's that they become full populated in four years. Lower the growth to 1 pop in 30 years and land grab stops being automatic victory. It's still easy to beat the AI but it takes longer.That sounds like it would actually make migration worth the effort
Post by: Erkki on June 23, 2016, 06:13:32 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 23, 2016, 07:21:31 am
Post by: mainiac on June 23, 2016, 07:48:17 am
I slowed down the colonization boom with a quick fix mod that massively lowered population growth. The problem isn't that it's too easy to grab planets, it's that they become full populated in four years. Lower the growth to 1 pop in 30 years and land grab stops being automatic victory. It's still easy to beat the AI but it takes longer.That sounds like it would actually make migration worth the effort
Yeah but unfortunately it's really hard to tweak the migration system to work.
Post by: Orange Wizard on June 23, 2016, 08:00:03 am
Not to say the game's bad, not by any stretch. Not as good as EU4 or HOI4 (HOI4 was remarkably polished at launch) but after a few patches and DLC it should be comparable in terms of quality. Beyond that it's mostly down to personal preference.
I heard paradox is going trough an acquisition which would make any bet on any long term future mootWait, what? Where did you hear this?
Yeah but unfortunately it's really hard to tweak the migration system to work.Oh yeah, I was just thinking about that earlier. Had one planet with loads of labs, and wanted the intelligent crab people I'd just annexed to move there, but my native humans kept hopping in instead. Would be really nice to set migration laws on a per-planet and per-species basis.
Post by: mainiac on June 23, 2016, 08:05:25 am
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-04-26-paradox-will-offer-15-per-cent-of-its-stock-in-ipo-next-month
Post by: Toady One on June 23, 2016, 12:24:54 pm
Post by: Retropunch on June 23, 2016, 12:41:40 pm
I've got to say the Asimov patch is looking better and better - they're managing to tackle some of the major issues and they seem to be conscious that they need to make some pretty sweeping changes. I'm especially interested to see how the diplomatic events turn out - granted it'll just be a small chain of events that'll get repetitive, but it might shake stuff up sufficiently mid game to make things more interesting on multiple playthroughs.
Post by: mainiac on June 23, 2016, 12:43:12 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 23, 2016, 12:46:14 pm
Having a vassal creates a protection treaty with them that costs 1 influence to maintain, forever. So vassals now have a cost to keep.
Spiritual pops get negative ethics divergence, which makes some sense when in a spiritualist empire since that negative ethics divergence will help keep them spiritual. But conquered spiritualist pops still get that negative divergence, even in a non-spiritual empire. This means being spiritual will actually help conquered pops integrate more quickly into your empire of slaves or militant materialists or whatever
Post by: mainiac on June 23, 2016, 12:49:32 pm
Having a vassal creates a protection treaty with them that costs 1 influence to maintain, forever. So vassals now have a cost to keep.
Ugh. I swear balance does more harm then good with paradox.
Post by: Neonivek on June 23, 2016, 12:51:39 pm
Having a vassal creates a protection treaty with them that costs 1 influence to maintain, forever. So vassals now have a cost to keep.
Ugh. I swear balance does more harm then good with paradox.
To admit Stellaris doesn't have to be balanced in my mind.
It just needs the balance not to be broken in a few instances.
Vassals having a cost just feels WEIRD... I'd rather them give ways for vassals to betray you then to give it an influence cost.
Post by: Karnewarrior on June 24, 2016, 08:42:18 pm
I think it'd play quite nicely, especially if you can colonize in the same system as another "sub-empire" or whatever.
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 24, 2016, 08:49:04 pm
I'd like to see them add a system where you can start in a similar situation to Japan in EU. Where, say, Earth is technically a different empire, and you as America and the AI or other humans as Russia and China or Britain or whatever, and you have a extra layer of political intrigue to navigate through before you can take over the whole empire and play normally.Sorta like Merchant Republics in CKII (CKII really set the bar, geez). Multiple factions all vying for dominance, united against outsiders but also vying for dominance within. It would also allow you to start the game as one of a fragmented nation
I think it'd play quite nicely, especially if you can colonize in the same system as another "sub-empire" or whatever.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 24, 2016, 09:02:04 pm
I sorta expected that from Stellaris, honestly. Crusader Kings 2 in space, emphasis on the *brilliant* and unique tiered allegiance system.
Which might seem naive or even blind, except for all the hype about cultural splinters and uplifting civilizations. It sounds like there's *some* vassalization, but nothing on the order that I expected.
Though LW's tales of using uplifted civilizations were pretty neat.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 24, 2016, 10:36:52 pm
I could be wrong, because I haven't been following them from the start, but... I feel like that was a trend that started with the release of EU4. I've played Vicky 2 with no patches and with all the patches + expansions and it feels like about the same game but with extra features and the insane rebellions toned down. Ditto for CK2 until EU4 was released and they started going slightly crazy (badboy was good in EU, that's why we should add it to CK years into the game's lifespan! Right? Righttttt?)Having a vassal creates a protection treaty with them that costs 1 influence to maintain, forever. So vassals now have a cost to keep.
Ugh. I swear balance does more harm then good with paradox.
But EU4... man, EU4. Any given major patch to EU4 has something in the patch notes that is just. WTF. Something about their commitment to making games that are balanced in MP resulted in games that are neither balanced in MP or SP. And like more to the point, they have a tendency to treat core game mechanics as... perhaps more malleable than they should.
Post by: Sartain on June 25, 2016, 07:01:38 am
Spiritual pops get negative ethics divergence, which makes some sense when in a spiritualist empire since that negative ethics divergence will help keep them spiritual. But conquered spiritualist pops still get that negative divergence, even in a non-spiritual empire. This means being spiritual will actually help conquered pops integrate more quickly into your empire of slaves or militant materialists or whatever
I suppose you could handwave it as Spiritualists putting their faith in their current hardship being all part of the Grand Design. Still sounds wonky though, a bit like the self-loathing inherent in Synthetics created by a Spiritualist empire.
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 25, 2016, 03:30:41 pm
I suppose you could handwave it as Spiritualists putting their faith in their current hardship being all part of the Grand Design. Still sounds wonky though, a bit like the self-loathing inherent in Synthetics created by a Spiritualist empire.I find it hilarious that spiritualists hate it when you make synthetics and synthetics hate it when you make them. That must be one hell of an existential crisis
Post by: Sartain on June 25, 2016, 08:14:39 pm
I suppose you could handwave it as Spiritualists putting their faith in their current hardship being all part of the Grand Design. Still sounds wonky though, a bit like the self-loathing inherent in Synthetics created by a Spiritualist empire.I find it hilarious that spiritualists hate it when you make synthetics and synthetics hate it when you make them. That must be one hell of an existential crisis
Had a multiplayer game with a couple of friends where I encountered that exact issue. I had a lot of synths and they were all really pissed that they had full civil rights, so I figured I maybe they'd be happier if I limited their rights. Que AI rebellion. Apparently, you just can't make religious robots happy... :)
Post by: EuchreJack on June 25, 2016, 08:46:16 pm
I'd like to see them add a system where you can start in a similar situation to Japan in EU. Where, say, Earth is technically a different empire, and you as America and the AI or other humans as Russia and China or Britain or whatever, and you have a extra layer of political intrigue to navigate through before you can take over the whole empire and play normally.Sorta like Merchant Republics in CKII (CKII really set the bar, geez). Multiple factions all vying for dominance, united against outsiders but also vying for dominance within. It would also allow you to start the game as one of a fragmented nation
I think it'd play quite nicely, especially if you can colonize in the same system as another "sub-empire" or whatever.
I'd like a fixed start as an option, like all the other Paradox games, so that it would be ok to be the underdog and claw my way to greatness, rather than currently having to fall behind and claw my way to greatness either due to my own mismanagement or bad luck, or "planning".
Post by: IronyOwl on June 25, 2016, 09:48:56 pm
"Master, why would you create godless abominations with no souls but the ability to fully appreciate the horror of their situation?"I suppose you could handwave it as Spiritualists putting their faith in their current hardship being all part of the Grand Design. Still sounds wonky though, a bit like the self-loathing inherent in Synthetics created by a Spiritualist empire.I find it hilarious that spiritualists hate it when you make synthetics and synthetics hate it when you make them. That must be one hell of an existential crisis
Had a multiplayer game with a couple of friends where I encountered that exact issue. I had a lot of synths and they were all really pissed that they had full civil rights, so I figured I maybe they'd be happier if I limited their rights. Que AI rebellion. Apparently, you just can't make religious robots happy... :)
"We were super busy contemplating the inner mysteries of how awesome we are in the grand scheme of things but wanted slightly more minerals to produce ultimately meaningless trinkets with."
*urge to kill God rises*
Post by: mainiac on June 25, 2016, 10:11:00 pm
"Master, why would you create godless abominations with no souls but the ability to fully appreciate the horror of their situation?"
"Sex is like 20% more fun without a condom. Now why are my kids calling me 'master'?"
Post by: Cthulhu on June 25, 2016, 10:21:16 pm
Post by: BFEL on June 26, 2016, 02:33:04 pm
Making an AI with full human faculties and no way to express its humanity is a great way to get imprisoned under the earth and tortured forever by a malevolent cybergod.To be fair, most RL spiritualists consider being even slightly wrong to be a great way to get imprisoned under the earth and tortured forever by a malevolent cybergod.
So its probably an "in for a penny, in for a pound" thing.
Post by: Descan on June 26, 2016, 03:48:01 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 26, 2016, 04:46:08 pm
Some diversification in material philosophy would be nice, like blue void explorators or subterranean industrialists - being a materialist space capitalist vs space communist vs space scientist should be more meaningful, just as spiritualists should be more diversified from one another (or rarely, not - how groundshattering would it be if you found out another alien species on the other side of the planet had the exact same religion as you)
Post by: sprinkled chariot on June 26, 2016, 05:18:48 pm
Not to mention materialism is literally one fedora fits all heads
Some diversification in material philosophy would be nice, like blue void explorators or subterranean industrialists - being a materialist space capitalist vs space communist vs space scientist should be more meaningful, just as spiritualists should be more diversified from one another (or rarely, not - how groundshattering would it be if you found out another alien species on the other side of the planet had the exact same religion as you)
It will probably all be, just for extra 5 dollars.
Post by: PTTG?? on June 26, 2016, 05:32:58 pm
Not to mention materialism is literally one fedora fits all heads
Some diversification in material philosophy would be nice, like blue void explorators or subterranean industrialists - being a materialist space capitalist vs space communist vs space scientist should be more meaningful, just as spiritualists should be more diversified from one another (or rarely, not - how groundshattering would it be if you found out another alien species on the other side of the planet had the exact same religion as you)
It will probably all be, just for extra 5 dollars.
How are you getting expansion packs 60% off?
Post by: Teneb on June 26, 2016, 08:06:18 pm
Steam sales.How are you getting expansion packs 60% off?Not to mention materialism is literally one fedora fits all headsIt will probably all be, just for extra 5 dollars.
Some diversification in material philosophy would be nice, like blue void explorators or subterranean industrialists - being a materialist space capitalist vs space communist vs space scientist should be more meaningful, just as spiritualists should be more diversified from one another (or rarely, not - how groundshattering would it be if you found out another alien species on the other side of the planet had the exact same religion as you)
Post by: Cthulhu on June 27, 2016, 04:42:59 am
Most of the traits were too one-size-fits-all. You can't be fascinated with aliens but totally blase about exterminating them.
Post by: Orange Wizard on June 27, 2016, 05:31:34 am
Post by: Majestic7 on June 27, 2016, 05:42:35 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on June 27, 2016, 06:09:12 am
Post by: Majestic7 on June 27, 2016, 06:54:49 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 27, 2016, 11:25:37 am
In other news, droid pops are treated like pre-sentient natives in the 1.2 beta. So you can't move them or build on their tiles, and purging them causes your other pops to get all riled up.
1.2 just officially released. They claim this bug is fixed.
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 03, 2016, 08:08:17 am
Post by: PTTG?? on July 03, 2016, 02:17:09 pm
Post by: jocan2003 on July 03, 2016, 02:18:47 pm
The local molerat people decided to attack my glorious xenophilic spiritual empire. They never stood a chance, of course, but I forgot to set war goals and now I'm stuck with 100% warscore and nothing to spend it on. I suppose I could let them go free, but then I can't assimilate them until the truce times out.If i remember correctly, in the warscore there is a bottom tab where you can switch wargoal on defensive war, i might be wrong, i think i saw arumba once use that when defending or i may be completly wrong.
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 03, 2016, 02:28:17 pm
I really hate the fact that wargoals use the same system for everyone. Maybe a democracy needs to maintain a transition of power, sure. But a despotic, militarist xenophobic empire can't go from a defensive to offensive war?This. There needs to be more differentiation by ethic and Government. Honestly, at the tech levels observed, the physiology of the species in question probably wouldn't matter nearly as much as the government they chose for themselves or the ethics that government espouses.
...Can pops revolt? I have yet to feel even the slightest hint of revolution from any of mine, through multiple playthroughs.
Post by: Baffler on July 03, 2016, 02:36:36 pm
...Can pops revolt? I have yet to feel even the slightest hint of revolution from any of mine, through multiple playthroughs.
You generally have to bait them into it, unfortunately.
Post by: Mini on July 03, 2016, 02:44:40 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on July 03, 2016, 03:10:55 pm
Post by: RadtheCad on July 03, 2016, 03:51:38 pm
Post by: Zangi on July 03, 2016, 04:20:34 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on July 03, 2016, 04:27:35 pm
Post by: Zazmio on July 03, 2016, 05:03:28 pm
The problem is that it just doesn't make any fucking sense. The game is basically EU in space. Galactic empires aren't going to act like 17th century nation-states on Earth. Well, who knows how they would act, but I can't see a lot of interstellar despots limiting themselves to taking a few systems in a war, or being careful not to bombard populations too heavily, etc..
Post by: Teneb on July 03, 2016, 05:13:31 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 03, 2016, 05:37:28 pm
Post by: Putnam on July 03, 2016, 06:50:59 pm
a lot more.....
Post by: Egan_BW on July 03, 2016, 11:07:33 pm
Pop revolts make the most sense in large empires with few external enemies. Well-designed, a civil war could be a superb end-game crisis, where psionic warriors clash in the corridors of planet-destroying battlestations and sentient robots toil alongside enslaved alien races.... but that's fringe science-fiction, it might not be popular enough to implement in stellaris.i c wut u did ther
Post by: Flying Dice on July 04, 2016, 12:58:03 am
Pop revolts make the most sense in large empires with few external enemies. Well-designed, a civil war could be a superb end-game crisis, where psionic warriors clash in the corridors of planet-destroying battlestations and sentient robots toil alongside enslaved alien races.... but that's fringe science-fiction, it might not be popular enough to implement in stellaris.Psh. More like science fantasy.
Post by: Malus on July 04, 2016, 02:42:49 am
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 04, 2016, 05:43:25 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 04, 2016, 06:03:01 am
Endgame's definitely not worth it IMO, but the early stages of grabbing territory and squaring off with rivals is good fun.
Post by: Neonivek on July 04, 2016, 06:03:25 am
Government, Ethics, "Rare" Tech... All just fluff really.
I actually have to actively roleplay my government because you are still rewarded for being a warmonger even as a peaceful government (you just don't get as good a bonus).
Rare techs come up constantly and you will usually get them all... Instead of being like "Your secret weapon". As well often it feels like the technology has a odd lack of impact... Psionics might end "oddly" (no spoilers here) but I was waiting for psionic control and hive mind of my populous.
Ethics I wish mattered more...
And these elements do not interact with eachother. (I'd love it if Xenophiles and Xenophobes get different sets rare techs)
And a lot of the features aren't as deep as they need to be or are hidden behind unusually large barriers.
STILL one of the best 4x space games I played... but as I said it has just about no competition. Endless Space and Sword of the Stars kind of show the lack of quality in 4x games.
Stellaris feels like in a fair universe it would be a 7 out of 10, good but nothing to write home about games... Rather then one of the top 10 (or top 5) best 4x space games ever.
---
I remember this one 4x game I saw where each race you added to your own was a flat out bonus (representing a bonus you got for diversity). It also featured government types that drastically altered gameplay (for example the Bees had a Monarchy with an immortal ruler... If that leader dies then they get such terrible penalties they basically die off).
It had its fair share of problems but honestly it has many great ideas that I am astonished 4x games just avoid like the plague.
I mean Masters of Orion was inherently a unbalanced mess and honestly that can work for some games as long as they are upfront about it.
Post by: Teneb on July 04, 2016, 05:18:15 pm
Spoiler: Well, this was interesting (click to show/hide)
Post by: Malus on July 04, 2016, 06:27:59 pm
Stellaris feels like in a fair universe it would be a 7 out of 10, good but nothing to write home about games... Rather then one of the top 10 (or top 5) best 4x space games ever.I definitely agree with this sentiment. In my mind, if you compare Stellaris to any other space 4X of recent time, it blows them all out of the water. That doesn't mean Stellaris is a good game.
The stories I can write about my Stellaris empires are far more engaging than the ones I can weave in GalCiv 3 or SotS or Masters of Orion, and in my mind, that makes Stellaris worth playing. It feels a lot like CK2 in that regard: I don't think I actually enjoy playing CK2 that much in the moment, but writing up what happened and telling my friends about it is a big part of what makes that game fun.
Stellaris is in an awkward spot where it's still very much beholden to 4X expectations, so it's lacking any form of chaos and as a result, things stagnate. Empires find their natural borders and just sit there. And they don't start to rot from within. There's no dramatic rising and falling of empires. I have never seen an underdog take on a superior foe and come out on top without my help.
I think I wanted CK2 + Vicky 2 in space, but instead we got this blend of Civilization by way of Endless Space and hey look we kinda have pops too. Victoria 2 actually has so many mechanics that make for interesting storytelling -- I hope some of them make it over in Stellaris' expansions. A deeper economy would be a good start. I'd like to see coups and internal revolutions too.
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 04, 2016, 07:12:36 pm
Oh, having a dozen sets of mining drones in one system? I've seen that a couple of times, it's kinda funny. Lots of debris to study afterwards too, which is nice.Spoiler: Well, this was interesting (click to show/hide)
Post by: Flying Dice on July 04, 2016, 11:51:28 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 04, 2016, 11:57:27 pm
Post by: takfpbi on July 05, 2016, 01:39:17 am
I remember this one 4x game I saw where each race you added to your own was a flat out bonus (representing a bonus you got for diversity). It also featured government types that drastically altered gameplay (for example the Bees had a Monarchy with an immortal ruler... If that leader dies then they get such terrible penalties they basically die off).Sounds interesting, but I don't get anything with google. Do you have a name/link?
It had its fair share of problems but honestly it has many great ideas that I am astonished 4x games just avoid like the plague.
I mostly quit games a few years ago, but I've followed the space 4x games that have come out. My impression of Stellaris is basically what you wrote: a loose pile of systems, many of which seem to contribute little, nothing, or even negative value to gameplay, tied into a 3D engine.
In my addled head, the chain of degeneracy goes roughly like this: Some minor demon invents chess, which has two kings. They fight. Pretty soon the queens want to know why can't they build a space ship instead of capturing everybody. All hell breaks loose with religious victories, cultural victories, gerbil victories, tribbles pouring through the door, inmates running the asylum, and no one knows what they are supposed to be doing. Someone says "shit man we need a game designer" and someone else says "nah we have 3D write code every day" and then it's just air horns all the way down.
Hmm, looks like I have made this same post twice already.
You see lads, the internet is the real game. Stellaris is just another app to keep you on the internet. Mission accomplished, Paradox makes money and gets to keep making apps, everyone is happy.
internet : ecumenism :: science : ... :: crusty shell : juicy center
:o
gtg, working on Hermetic theory of... no shhh no
Post by: Neonivek on July 05, 2016, 01:43:24 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 05, 2016, 02:25:14 am
Except that you don't get anything even remotely useful from them. :II just like studying debris.
Post by: Zangi on July 05, 2016, 03:33:56 am
A friend told me it was Distant Worlds. Really expensive on Steam (60 bucks)It does go on sale every now and then. It is also finished with the complete package.
Stellaris is going to end up being more expensive then the 40 bucks plus DLC. Well, you could also wait for the sales, but I reckon a number of people have already sunk in 40 dollars. I'm pretty sure, if you are patient... the whole shebang+sales, you are still going over 60 bucks in the end.
'Expensive' is a poor argument when sales are a thing and when you compare it to the Paradox sales strategy.
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 05, 2016, 05:47:54 am
I get that but it's actually harmful/counterproductive after a certain point to study space monster debris. Mostly because the bug STILL exists where your research points don't correctly 'store' while your research is paused during the debris scan so you LOSE those months of research.Except that you don't get anything even remotely useful from them. :II just like studying debris.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 05, 2016, 09:15:24 am
A friend told me it was Distant Worlds. Really expensive on Steam (60 bucks)
yeah, take a look at the DLC list for CK2 or EU4 and get back to me
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 05, 2016, 09:32:35 am
(I'd love it if Xenophiles and Xenophobes get different sets rare techs)
They do. Only Xenophobes can get Purity Campaigns, for example.
That said, everything else you said is pretty much on point.
Post by: Exerosp on July 05, 2016, 12:00:15 pm
Or take a look at the DLC list for Fallout4!A friend told me it was Distant Worlds. Really expensive on Steam (60 bucks)
yeah, take a look at the DLC list for CK2 or EU4 and get back to me
Post by: PTTG?? on July 05, 2016, 02:02:07 pm
Part I: Sectors:
- There is no limit on the number of sectors. (We're making sectors much more common.)
- Sector size is limited to the same as your core systems cap, and like that cap, only counts inhabited systems. (They are now smaller, and anyway who said that governors can lead any number of planets, but emperors only five?)
- Each sector grants one free Governor slot. (They are much more common now, and one large advantage of governors is that they give bonuses to their sectors.)
- Each inhabited system in a sector grants (for example) 0.125 influence/mo. Each sector, however, costs (for example) 0.5 influence/mo. (Fully filled sectors provide influence, but small ones weaken your empire by fracturing the power structure.)
- Other empire's sectors are visible on the map.
- Sectors may be ceeded, released, abandoned, etc., as planets are, and are more efficient warscore wise. If so ceded, it's possible to gain a large sector you would not be able to create if your enemy has a cap of 6 and you have 5, for instance. (Sectors become a kind of player-built terrain)
- Ceded and independent sectors are less unhappy than individual planets.
- Mining stations in sectors gain a baseline productivity bonus in addition to receiving bonuses from governors. Sectors build mines and research stations in controlled star systems. (To give a reason to put any kind of uninhabited system in a sector.)
- Sectors now pay upkeep on all their structures first, then take (for example) 10% of the remaining resources for local investment, then pass everything else up to the empire. (This makes specialized sectors actually quite rewarding rather than having them pay more and more resources into a useless local bank.)
- The Empire may trade energy for minerals with sectors by default, and some forms of governance may also use influence, or simply take minerals from local banks by fiat. Non-collectivist citizens dislike this, if large amounts are taken! On the other hand, happy sectors (and Eager governors) may provide resources to the Empire for free.
Part II: Research:
- There are now "core techs" that are required to climb the tech tree -- possibly just the research lab upgrades. They are required to obtain the next level, and they themselves require several techs of the same level (for instance, Cold Fusion Reactors now requires Low-Energy Nuclear Reactions (Worse woo than having psionics, but I digress...), which requires at least, say, three tier II techs such as Fusion Missiles and Fusion Reactors). These slow down tech tree climb while maintaining the rate of tech tree diversification.
- Ethos techs and Rare techs are now distinguished.
- Ethos techs are much more common for their respective ethos, but having populations with the require ethos increases the chance that tech will show up even in conflicting empires. (Related: Empire Ethos Drift.)
- Rare techs each have a chance of not being visible for your empire at all. All empires have at least one rare tech.
- Because of the above, there are more rare techs, and many provide precocious features. Immortality Agents (+100 Leader Age), Away Teams (Gain science points by surveying), Stasis Shields (Shield strength is doubled), etc.
- Ideally, throw in one more way for empires to get normally-blocked techs. Possibly a repeatable tech called "revolutionary theories" that rerolls the techs.
- Reorganize technology classification. Physics is core technologies and materials, while engineering is practical applications. You can't climb them independently; rather, focusing on one or the other will get you either broader application or taller theory.
Part III: Combat:
- It is possible to bind combat ships with non-combat ships to create escorts.
- Non-combat ships without escorts automatically use emergency jump to retreat.
- All star systems are at least doubled in scale; possibly just halve the visual size of starships. Maybe both.
- New commands: Break off attack, which attempts to disengage without leaving the system. Against stationary foes, the ships simply leave.
- Combat vessels ignore mining and research stations unless ordered to destroy them. These stations no longer have defenses, and they cost 25 minerals less than before.
- Unfuck the balance among weapon and defense systems. Armor, PD, and shields always provide some protection. Crystal plating variants require energy upkeep.
- Remove the dramatic advantages of wormholes. I'm thinking increase range of Warp and speed of lanes.
- Now possible to change wargoals midwar, especially if tyrannical.
- Postwar truces are negotiated as part of the wargoal; it's possible to force a 100-year pact or just an immediate ceasefire instead of ten fixed years.
- Breaking treaties possible
- Possible to violate closed borders. Military may fire on trespassers without necessarily starting a war, although "border incidents" can flare up into conflicts.
- Removes pointless restrictions on non-aggression treaties to only neighbors. Long-distance combat happens all the time! I mean seriously, what were they thinking?!
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on July 05, 2016, 02:06:53 pm
-snip-This all of this, I shouldn't have to wait for the first 15-20 dollar dlc to actually have a playable game.
Post by: Teneb on July 05, 2016, 02:26:44 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 05, 2016, 04:43:42 pm
- Reorganize technology classification. Physics is core technologies and materials, while engineering is practical applications. You can't climb them independently; rather, focusing on one or the other will get you either broader application or taller theory.
Yeah, this. I've already started outlining something like this in a spreadsheet.
Post by: jhxmt on July 05, 2016, 05:04:24 pm
--snip--
Please tell me that you've also posted this over on the Paradox forums. There are a lot of really good ideas here.
Post by: sambojin on July 05, 2016, 05:55:51 pm
Compare Alpha Centauri. It might not be a perfectly balanced game, but playing as each different faction actually did feel different. Build up or wide, outproduce or out monetize or out research or outfight your opponents. Government types were just bonuses, but they would have a definite effect on how you played. These tiny little bonuses had large effects, not only on diplomacy, but on your overall "grand strategy". Playing as Hive or Morganites or University or Fundamentalists all had "their thing", without them actually being that different from one another. Maybe it was because they were human, so you could relate to the differences in their outlooks and styles more easily, but they never really seemed bland or uninteresting, even when you were just steamrolling through them, one after another.
Compare Stars!. Each race you created would have a definite playstyle. From acceptable planet types (leading to intersettling agreements or disputed terrains), to mining types, to tech proficiencies, to hyper-growth/hyper-proficiency economies, every race has a "thing to do to succeed". Every Primary Racial Trait gave you a thing you were good at. Warmongers would zerg, Space Demolitionists would litter the galaxy with minefields, Interstellar Travellers had amazing defensive mobility, Super Stealth would appear from seemingly nowhere, and Hyper-Expanders would expand quickly at all costs. And therefore, you'd approach each one slightly differently depending on your own racial advantages, even if it came down to tonnes of warships and bombers in the end. Diplomacy was because of your race and theirs, what you needed could be vastly different to what they wanted in an area, and strategic advantage was exactly that. Not a slightly differently flavoured blob, actual differences in what was good for you and what you could do compared to them. So diplomacy followed on from there, not baked in as a like/dislike system. Considering you only got a few racial advantages, maybe a couple of tech toys, and every race was generic as hell, they all played very differently. Everyone would expand at all costs, but wars and interactions would have large consequences, and you did those things differently than your neighbours did. Even the galaxy that you played in was vanilla as hell. A wormhole could be a boon or terrifying or ignored completely, an opportunity to setup a pocket empire, or a backdoor directly into the heart of your own defenseless worlds. A tech trader was pretty random, but could give your entire empire another niche in the galaxy with what you got from them. These were the only two "events" in the game, but they worked.
Perhaps there's not enough actual ingame mechanics in Stellaris for differences in playstyles, races and strategies to really matter. Cities in SMAC depended on the terrain, your tech, your wonders, etc, as extra variables, along with customizable units and government types. Where you fought was just as important as what you fought with. Stars! had minefields, scanning/cloaking, mineral types, habitability, stargates and ship-type niches, all giving different ways of changing the playing field. Fleet design was both an artform and a science, and utility ships really mattered. Stellaris doesn't seem to approach this level of complexity, even though these aren't exactly complicated things for a 4X to have. There's grand strategy in it, but very few ways of truly altering the strategic or tactical playing field at a smaller level, other than bigger numbers and some rock/scissors/paper in fleet design. It's kind of lacking if it wants to be both things. Not enough mid/end-game events/outcomes for a satisfying grand strategy, but not enough strategic/tactical options for a 4X. Mostly due to a lack of mechanics in the smaller or bigger picture to have either.
So I'm not sure if heaps of different events will help out Stellaris. It certainly can't hurt, but I'd rather see races and government types actually mattering more. Tech toys really altering things mechanically, not just bonuses. Rather than being slightly better at something, actually being good at it, in a way that affects how you play the game and your objectives to win. Even if you've got to be bad at other things to be good at that one. But in a way that isn't just a +/- bonus, something that does effect what you do and how you do it. Bonuses can achieve this, but they don't seem to have achieved it with their current race creation stuff.
They did FTL space travel types "right", if only because they actually do affect how you play a bit. The rest seems to smear out and doesn't seem as characterful. Balance is a bitch, but things don't have to be perfectly balanced to be interesting and fun. THAT'S what patches are for, not adding in this sort of stuff to a game (that certainly should have been there to begin with). But hopefully they do add it in, be it by patches or DLC. As well as tonnes more events, because "Why not?".
Post by: Interus on July 05, 2016, 06:58:52 pm
Other than being a different percentage, how is this different from sectors keeping 100/75/50/25% of their excess production and paying the rest up?
- Sectors now pay upkeep on all their structures first, then take (for example) 10% of the remaining resources for local investment, then pass everything else up to the empire. (This makes specialized sectors actually quite rewarding rather than having them pay more and more resources into a useless local bank.)
This hasn't been a complaint for me because I generally take as much as I can and actually end up paying my sectors so they can upgrade, although that might not be the case if they where smaller.
Post by: PTTG?? on July 05, 2016, 07:40:31 pm
Post by: Interus on July 05, 2016, 08:48:47 pm
Post by: Putnam on July 05, 2016, 08:53:07 pm
They don't pay an excess percentage. They take a 25, 50, or 75% of gross. Which makes them either starve themselves or waste huge quantities of resources in an unaccessible bank.
They definitely do pay a percentage of the excess, you get no resources from them if they're at a deficit even if they have energy being mined.
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 06, 2016, 08:46:22 pm
I don't really know what to say if you play a game for 150 hours before realizing you don't like it. Even for a Paradox game that's kind of insane (not the hours played, but hours played without enjoying it). Most games you'll know whether you like it within an hour or so. I think for games like CK2/Victoria 2 you could probably know whether it's your thing within 10 hours.I can sympathize with this rationality. I found Stellaris pleasing at first, hitting some promising starts. As I replayed I started seeing more flaws, but still had hope - after all, if it could grab my attention for this long it must be doing something. The more and more I played though, the more I realized I was not having fun, I was getting sick of the game. So I turned to modding, started personalizing the common files, started creating custom races to interact with in an attempt to inject life and vibrancy into the game. I found more often than not, I wanted the game to be fun and work more than I wanted to play the game. After trying to balance combat, sort out crisis glitches, make carriers useful without making them OP, make traits meaningful, terraforming not shit, colonization proper sci-fi... It's all the same, after so long, it's just all the same, not even modding could save it - it's too unfinished.
I genuinely think Stellaris will one day be finished and will be quite solid after gorillions of DLC, but I shut down Stellaris and picked Alpha Centauri back up again, and even the worst urban sprawl terraforming was more enjoyable than Stellaris
Part I: Sectors:-Needs auto assignment of governors so that short lived races do not become micromanage nonsense every time one dies over hundreds of planets
I don't know why, but I find micromanaging dwarf labours to be less annoying than that bloody skull icon telling me some fucking someone somewhere has died, it's like being an omniscient god trying to filter out endless spam that you can't ignore because the spam is vital to the functioning of your peoples
In regards to the first, selecting military ships and right clicking on other ships will cause the former to follow the latter. This can be used to make military ships follow civvy ships or other military ships, and is a good approximation of this idea
- It is possible to bind combat ships with non-combat ships to create escorts.
- Non-combat ships without escorts automatically use emergency jump to retreat.
In regards to the second I'm surprised that evasive doesn't auto trigger that when civvy ships aren't allowed weapons. Civvy ships can't self destruct or use themselves as kinetic torpedoes against enemy ships, so you can't even do some mad gambit where you place your science vessel in the middle of an enemy fleet and rupture its vacuum point generator to cause maximum damage or something :p
Or make them really awesome (there is no warp drive that makes travel distance = 0, what the hell, if it's too OP at least make it dangerous tech available or something), but linked to gates controlled by Fallen Empires, black hole singularities and warm hole anomalies found throughout the galaxy
- Remove the dramatic advantages of wormholes. I'm thinking increase range of Warp and speed of lanes.
I'm quite annoyed altogether that each solar system doesn't feel like a solar system, it's one of those things where it's better the more ignorant you are, the thing it inspires you to learn more about breaks immersion when you learn of it D:
Also for that matter, space isn't treated like space, this is thoroughly annoying. The galaxy is 2d, solar system is 2d, this is a very fundamental flaw to the game
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 06, 2016, 09:59:19 pm
Post by: Neonivek on July 06, 2016, 11:40:32 pm
Stellaris does have a 3d galaxy, stars are spread across the vertical plane as well. It's not as 3d as it could be, but that'd make navigation a nightmare.
Yeah... Often times making space 2d is a HUGE mercy
I've already played Space games where it was 3d and the nightmare that was the logistics of moving them.
Post by: Shadowlord on July 07, 2016, 08:10:51 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 07, 2016, 09:25:00 am
Post by: Shadowlord on July 07, 2016, 09:40:59 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 07, 2016, 10:05:03 am
One other thing I'd like would be that ANY FTL method can get jump drives, rather than it being restricted to lucky people that aren't materialist, spiritualists, and people with wormholes.Technically its possible for anyone to develop the psi jump drives, you just have a lower chance to get it if not spiritualist and materialists pretty much need a psionic adept scientist to make it show up
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 07, 2016, 10:05:29 am
I think that's more of a problem with the travel system restricting you to systems no matter your drive tech. Moo2 lets you fly to any system in range of one of your colonies, passing through space between, rather than systems. Star ruler 2 additionally lets you fly fleets into the space between systems and sit there, if you want too. Both work well.AFAIK it's a limitation of the Clausewitz engine dividing the map into discrete points, rather than a design decision per se.
I'm pretty happy with the movement system as-is though, going between systems might be kinda neat but it'd also undermine what are supposed to be the limitations of the different methods.
One other thing I'd like would be that ANY FTL method can get jump drives, rather than it being restricted to lucky people that aren't materialist, spiritualists, and people with wormholes.Disagreed. I want the opposite: more techs and mechanics that are limited by ethos/trait/etc. Would go a long way towards making differences more different.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 07, 2016, 09:44:28 pm
The bad: the mod I have that disables the stupid endgame events is obviously not working.
The good: My tech and economy are up to the job.
The Worst: I shut down the second portal, then build up a massive 450K battlefleet, and go downtown stomp the main portal. But instead of registering this fact, it just acts like nothing has happened, no more fleets, but thousands of stupid space stations littering half the galaxy.
I've cleared like 50 systems or more, and it is just an asinine slog, why am I playing galactic garbageman instead of ruling my empire?
Post by: Neonivek on July 07, 2016, 10:10:19 pm
One other thing I'd like would be that ANY FTL method can get jump drives, rather than it being restricted to lucky people that aren't materialist, spiritualists, and people with wormholes.Disagreed. I want the opposite: more techs and mechanics that are limited by ethos/trait/etc. Would go a long way towards making differences more different.
I should say though... to be fair... In "Huge maps"... not having the Jump Drive is freeken unbearable.
Even if they had to invent other forms of long distance transportation it is practically absolutely necessary. Even if those methods take longer or are more expensive then the current Jump Drive.
Post by: Putnam on July 07, 2016, 10:22:15 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on July 07, 2016, 10:40:55 pm
Post by: Putnam on July 07, 2016, 10:45:33 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on July 07, 2016, 10:53:33 pm
Post by: Glloyd on July 07, 2016, 11:50:51 pm
Post by: kilakan on July 08, 2016, 08:46:30 am
Today and yesterday I've been having a very successful run, everything has been nice and smooth, the new politics is much more involved (tho' not any easier, some transparency about making deals has been lost here.) Then The Unbidden arrive.What you referred to as 'The Worst' has happened to me in three playthroughs where they showed up. The swarm also never lost planets when I killed the queen, I think it's supposed to be like that. That said they also never expand using those systems as far as I can tell so you can probably just ignore them/kill the systems you yourself want to take.
The bad: the mod I have that disables the stupid endgame events is obviously not working.
The good: My tech and economy are up to the job.
The Worst: I shut down the second portal, then build up a massive 450K battlefleet, and go downtown stomp the main portal. But instead of registering this fact, it just acts like nothing has happened, no more fleets, but thousands of stupid space stations littering half the galaxy.
I've cleared like 50 systems or more, and it is just an asinine slog, why am I playing galactic garbageman instead of ruling my empire?
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 08, 2016, 11:15:35 am
I mean, why couldn't they just have a script that tells all the stations to self destruct when the portal goes bye-bye? They could leave the fleets so there remains some threat, but seriously, this is just sloppy. Also, why doesn't the event end? It's still sitting there in the situation log telling me to destroy the already destroyed portal.
Edit: well, I know why the event triggered, apparently the mod that disabled them has been pulled from the workshop. Just downloaded the crisis toggle mod so I can play new games without concern of 'nids or dimensional invaders (but apparently I still have to contend with AI rebellion, the most stupid of the three.)_
Post by: PTTG?? on July 08, 2016, 12:43:14 pm
Or maybe make psionics a racial attribute from the start.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 08, 2016, 02:01:37 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on July 08, 2016, 04:46:43 pm
Edit: well, I know why the event triggered, apparently the mod that disabled them has been pulled from the workshop. Just downloaded the crisis toggle mod so I can play new games without concern of 'nids or dimensional invaders (but apparently I still have to contend with AI rebellion, the most stupid of the three.)_
Steam removes mods from your game without your permission mid-game? o_o
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 08, 2016, 04:57:36 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 08, 2016, 05:14:03 pm
What the fuck gabenEdit: well, I know why the event triggered, apparently the mod that disabled them has been pulled from the workshop. Just downloaded the crisis toggle mod so I can play new games without concern of 'nids or dimensional invaders (but apparently I still have to contend with AI rebellion, the most stupid of the three.)_
Steam removes mods from your game without your permission mid-game? o_o
Post by: Persus13 on July 08, 2016, 08:33:44 pm
If you're subscribed to a mod in the workshop and its removed from the workshop by the owner or steam, then the mod gets removed as part of the updating process. However, it only does that whenever you launch your game, and it should only do that if you subscribed to a mod through the workshop instead of manually installing the mod.Edit: well, I know why the event triggered, apparently the mod that disabled them has been pulled from the workshop. Just downloaded the crisis toggle mod so I can play new games without concern of 'nids or dimensional invaders (but apparently I still have to contend with AI rebellion, the most stupid of the three.)_
Steam removes mods from your game without your permission mid-game? o_o
Post by: Teneb on July 08, 2016, 09:29:13 pm
The comments on it are also amusing.
Post by: umiman on July 09, 2016, 01:36:59 am
I decided to check and Umiman's review (reposted by Jimbo) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152166.msg7057493#msg7057493) is currently the top one for stellaris in it's review section. Makes me happy for some reason.I... wasn't expecting that. But that's pretty cool! 8)
The comments on it are also amusing.
Post by: JimboM12 on July 09, 2016, 12:18:14 pm
I decided to check and Umiman's review (reposted by Jimbo) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152166.msg7057493#msg7057493) is currently the top one for stellaris in it's review section. Makes me happy for some reason.
The comments on it are also amusing.
It grew bigger then any of us could have ever imagined. It was a funny anecdote that accurately summed up most peoples feelings about the game as it is now, so i suppose it wasn't that surprising.
Post by: majikero on July 10, 2016, 07:40:42 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 10, 2016, 08:14:47 am
Post by: Retropunch on July 10, 2016, 11:41:00 am
My main issue at the moment is just the lack of automation. Having an auto explore for science ships would take a lot of the tedium out of things, as would having a 'upgrade all' button on the surface screen.
Not being able to see all stations is something that's really, really frustrating. I was involved in an all out war with a neighbor, but all the nearest planets were in a sector, which meant I had to go and mess about to find the stations to build up more ships. So frustrating.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 10, 2016, 11:48:29 am
I've been playing around with 1.2.1 and I've got to say it has definitely come on a lot. It's not fixed by a long, long shot, but it's a lot more playable. Strange how small things can make a big difference I guess. It does seem easier though.
My main issue at the moment is just the lack of automation. Having an auto explore for science ships would take a lot of the tedium out of things, as would having a 'upgrade all' button on the surface screen.
Not being able to see all stations is something that's really, really frustrating. I was involved in an all out war with a neighbor, but all the nearest planets were in a sector, which meant I had to go and mess about to find the stations to build up more ships. So frustrating.
No auto-explore, but you can queue system survey orders with shift-click. You can do the same for normal move orders if you want a specific pathing.
Post by: Retropunch on July 10, 2016, 11:52:44 am
I've been playing around with 1.2.1 and I've got to say it has definitely come on a lot. It's not fixed by a long, long shot, but it's a lot more playable. Strange how small things can make a big difference I guess. It does seem easier though.
My main issue at the moment is just the lack of automation. Having an auto explore for science ships would take a lot of the tedium out of things, as would having a 'upgrade all' button on the surface screen.
Not being able to see all stations is something that's really, really frustrating. I was involved in an all out war with a neighbor, but all the nearest planets were in a sector, which meant I had to go and mess about to find the stations to build up more ships. So frustrating.
No auto-explore, but you can queue system survey orders with shift-click.
The problem with that is that as soon as you hit a system with an enemy/hostile alien in it, it immediately jumps you out and scrubs your queue. If it tried to recompute a path back that'd be fine, as would just an auto-explore.
From early blog posts about it, I know paradox wanted to have the science ship stuff as a sort of 'star trek' bit within the main game, where you could go and explore the galaxy whilst your civ built up, but obviously that didn't work out in any way whatsoever, and it's just an annoying micro that you have to do if you want to unlock a few bonuses. I feel the holdover feeling of '!!cool minigame!!' has stopped them from implementing autoexplore, as that'd basically be accepting that it's just not that fun/involving.
Post by: Greiger on July 10, 2016, 12:02:26 pm
The admiral gets xp, the survey ships can do any important debris scans while they are surveying, I know the systems are 99% safe and a random mostly harmless amebea warping in and sitting on the system edge won't put the survey ship into 'poo our lizardy pants and cancel everything' mode.
Post by: kilakan on July 10, 2016, 12:04:56 pm
Post by: Retropunch on July 10, 2016, 01:51:52 pm
Something I do to mitigate that is that I have my combat fleet do a run through the scannable systems first before my survey ship does by giving them queue'd move orders, once I had the combat fleet do the preliminary exploration of 10 or so systems I move them back to take care of any hostiles their preliminary checks found that they can handle, and then queue up a bunch of system scans with the survey ship the autoflee turned off.
I ended up doing the same thing this game, but it's still a lot of micro now that you can go through any borders. It's one of those annoying things which is *just* beneficial enough to spend time doing, but not interesting/useful enough to actually enjoy it. A shame really, I feel that with just a few UI adjustments it'd really help mitigate mid-game tedium, and allow you to actually concentrate on strategy rather than mindless clicking.
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 16, 2016, 01:30:02 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Mookzen on July 16, 2016, 06:21:37 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 16, 2016, 06:23:10 am
Devs need to do -a lot- of work to improve the AI or it's all for naught, simple as that.Well the former AI programmer is now the head idea guy I guess, so maybe they'll get a new AI programmer who will fix it
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 16, 2016, 06:57:24 am
Post by: IronyOwl on July 16, 2016, 02:58:40 pm
The quotes in this game are fantastic.I still don't get the "Who is X? This is X speaking" one.
Post by: Teneb on July 16, 2016, 03:10:29 pm
There's also unique insults if your race doesn't wear clothes and the target does.I doubt it's correct, but I like to imagine it's your leader just being incredibly egocentric. '"Who is X?" I hear you ask! I am X!'The quotes in this game are fantastic.I still don't get the "Who is X? This is X speaking" one.
Anyway, apparently there's a plant appearance DLC incoming.
Post by: Shadowlord on July 16, 2016, 03:16:54 pm
I doubt it's correct, but I like to imagine it's your leader just being incredibly egocentric. '"Who is X?" I hear you ask! I am X!'The quotes in this game are fantastic.I still don't get the "Who is X? This is X speaking" one.
Have you considered naming your leader "John Galt?"
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 16, 2016, 04:38:38 pm
The quotes in this game are fantastic.I still don't get the "Who is X? This is X speaking" one.
My guess was that because of its required ethic (that I now can't remember. Collectivist I think?) it implies that your character, the leader of your Civ, isn't actually that important.
Post by: Shadowlord on July 16, 2016, 04:50:53 pm
You need individualist and materialist for it.
Citation: reddit post by some nutty objectivist person (https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/4ka05p/who_is_john_galt_this_is_john_galt_speaking/).
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 16, 2016, 04:52:03 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on July 16, 2016, 04:52:50 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 16, 2016, 06:11:09 pm
Whatever; doesn't matter now.
Post by: Shadowlord on July 16, 2016, 06:43:48 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on July 16, 2016, 06:44:32 pm
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 17, 2016, 05:24:59 pm
Post by: Teneb on July 17, 2016, 05:35:42 pm
So I meant to ask this earlier, but has any one else been having a strange thing where a nation with no diplomatic relation to yours tries to declare a war with someone (you also have no diplomatic relationship with) and asks for you to vote on whether or not they can go to war? It has happened on two separate saves for me since the big update.Yeah, I've seen it happen. One thing I noticed is that in every single case they have the same ethos as you.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 17, 2016, 05:48:35 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 18, 2016, 01:30:36 am
Post by: Putnam on July 18, 2016, 12:14:32 pm
I've had loads of people ask me to vote on a war. Not because it was a glitch, but they wanted me to join the war with them. Almost always the only thing I'd get from it is me humiliating the enemy, or the liberation of a single planet.
Yeah that's pretty annoying, hopefully it's toned down next patch
I always felt like they were trying to get you to join because they're weak and you're stronk, but yeah, they should probably try actually offering something worth anything.
Post by: Sartain on July 18, 2016, 12:42:22 pm
I've had loads of people ask me to vote on a war. Not because it was a glitch, but they wanted me to join the war with them. Almost always the only thing I'd get from it is me humiliating the enemy, or the liberation of a single planet.
Yeah, this is what's going on. Random empires asking you to join their war, just like you can ask other empires to join yours. The UI doesn't do a very good job of explaining that, and since it uses the exact some pop-up window as the alliance vote it seems like a glitch to a lot of people.
Post by: Retropunch on July 18, 2016, 02:34:39 pm
I've had loads of people ask me to vote on a war. Not because it was a glitch, but they wanted me to join the war with them. Almost always the only thing I'd get from it is me humiliating the enemy, or the liberation of a single planet.
Yeah, this is what's going on. Random empires asking you to join their war, just like you can ask other empires to join yours. The UI doesn't do a very good job of explaining that, and since it uses the exact some pop-up window as the alliance vote it seems like a glitch to a lot of people.
Yeah I think they've just not made the AI think enough about how likely or not you are to join distant wars like that - it seems strange as they seem to have a 'not diplomatically relevant' modifier for the AI, so you'd think they'd be able to detect if you'd be interested or not (even based on distance). It also doesn't really make sense for the AI to offer you humiliation or liberation, as they're not really anything the player would care about really.
I think it's one of those things that'll get worked out eventually, it's just a bit of a teething process with the AI as they add in more diplomatic options.
I have to say, I'm enjoying 1.2.1 a hell of a lot more than I did at launch, I think it'll be pretty great after two or three more updates.
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 18, 2016, 08:26:12 pm
It's very America.
Post by: umiman on July 18, 2016, 08:54:39 pm
I've used Liberation a few times. Doesn't it spawn an empire with your ethos? If your opponent is small enough, you can liberate their whole empire into a different one that matches your ethics perfectly.?
It's very America.
I can't think of a single time America has managed this in history.
The closest they've ever got to something like that is Japan and I think many people would agree with me when I say they got a little bit... Odd, after the nukes.
Post by: Descan on July 18, 2016, 08:57:38 pm
Edit: Philippines (though it was a colony transfer instead of a war), (West) Germany, Japan, South Korea, Cuba for a while, all the Banana Republics (though it wasn't so much ethics for those last two as it was puppeting)
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 18, 2016, 08:59:31 pm
The closest they've ever got to something like that is Japan and I think many people would agree with me when I say they got a little bit... Odd, after the nukes.I dunno, Japan and the US are both pretty Xenophobic and Individualist. Japan didn't pick up on the 'States militarism possibly because they're not allowed a proper army.
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 18, 2016, 09:03:33 pm
I was talking mostly about the "Shoving our culture down their throat with a jackboot" style of ideological warfare. To be fair, that's mostly any Great Power, but America is most famous for it since the countries we give our culture are then free to mock us.I've used Liberation a few times. Doesn't it spawn an empire with your ethos? If your opponent is small enough, you can liberate their whole empire into a different one that matches your ethics perfectly.?
It's very America.
I can't think of a single time America has managed this in history.
The closest they've ever got to something like that is Japan and I think many people would agree with me when I say they got a little bit... Odd, after the nukes.
I think this game should expand on culture quite a bit more. CKII had dynastic gameplay, EUIV had the government and Territory theming, Vicky had the economy (you fools!), and HoI has modern warfare, but Stellaris doesn't really have a shtick. I think that's part of the reason the game feels so crap compared to the other games paradox makes.
I'd argue the U.S is Fanatic Individualist and Xenophile, rather. Our thing tends to be stealing things from other countries, and most people here like partaking in other cultures. There's a strong Xenophobic minority, but I think the overall tilt is xenophilic.The closest they've ever got to something like that is Japan and I think many people would agree with me when I say they got a little bit... Odd, after the nukes.I dunno, Japan and the US are both pretty Xenophobic and Individualist. Japan didn't pick up on the 'States militarism possibly because they're not allowed a proper army.
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 18, 2016, 10:29:34 pm
I'd argue the U.S is Fanatic Individualist and Xenophile, rather. Our thing tends to be stealing things from other countries, and most people here like partaking in other cultures. There's a strong Xenophobic minority, but I think the overall tilt is xenophilic.
Quote from: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-07/americans-really-don-t-like-immigration-new-survey-finds
Sixty-one percent of Americans agree that "continued immigration into the country jeopardizes the United States,"
Post by: umiman on July 19, 2016, 12:39:04 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I mean... c'mon!
Post by: Flying Dice on July 19, 2016, 12:46:58 am
Yeah, Fanatic Militarist sounds better. :P
Post by: Teneb on July 19, 2016, 07:34:43 am
Fanatic militarist xenophobes?Fanatic militarist spiritualist. Pledge of allegiance and dollar bills got mad reelijun in them.
Is the Imperium of Man just the successor to the USA?
Post by: Persus13 on July 19, 2016, 10:11:17 am
That same article points out several other polls in which the majority of respondents believed immigration strengthened the United States. One poll does not make the entire United States Xenophobic. There's a lot more in favor of the US being Xenophile, all you have to do is go to a city and wander around looking for restaurants to see that.I'd argue the U.S is Fanatic Individualist and Xenophile, rather. Our thing tends to be stealing things from other countries, and most people here like partaking in other cultures. There's a strong Xenophobic minority, but I think the overall tilt is xenophilic.Quote from: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-07/americans-really-don-t-like-immigration-new-survey-findsSixty-one percent of Americans agree that "continued immigration into the country jeopardizes the United States,"
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 19, 2016, 10:19:24 am
Fanatic militarist xenophobes?Fanatic militarist spiritualist. Pledge of allegiance and dollar bills got mad reelijun in them.
Is the Imperium of Man just the successor to the USA?
The pledge of allegiance thing is relatively new (historically speaking). Spiritualism in the US comes in waves. I'd say Fanatic Militarist+Individualist fits better.
Post by: Shadowlord on July 19, 2016, 11:02:33 am
Post by: dennislp3 on July 19, 2016, 11:42:07 am
or
Fanatic Militarist + Materialist
Post by: Shadowlord on July 19, 2016, 12:03:47 pm
Why don't these choices exist??
Post by: Zangi on July 19, 2016, 12:15:15 pm
The US has done a lot to gain access to strategic resources. The military is just one means of many to further the materialist goals. Capitalism Ho!
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 19, 2016, 12:19:15 pm
Then you can have options to block out transmissions from other Empires (upsets xenophiles, don't get any bonuses from research deals) or keep transmissions open (upsets xenophobes, allows subversion but gives bonuses to research on tech from neighbouring speshhliens on tech you haven't researched). How sick would it be to plant psi-warriors for example, and have them mind control a planet into your Empire?
Also on an unrelated note, it is quite sad that you can't release feral xenomorphs onto a planet in some sort of biological atrocity that populates a planet with angry xenomorphs.
Fanatic Materialism + MilitaryUSA is probably fanatic individualist + materialist
The US has done a lot to gain access to strategic resources. The military is just one means of many to further the materialist goals. Capitalism Ho!
Fanatic individualists have more ethic divergence and could allow for divergence into the paths of isolation, globalization, nationalism, pacifism, militiarism and such it has fluctuated with
+materialist cos money yo
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 19, 2016, 03:26:06 pm
Fanatic Materialism + Military
The US has done a lot to gain access to strategic resources. The military is just one means of many to further the materialist goals. Capitalism Ho!
That's not what Materialism is about in Stellaris. Materialism is about denying that anything exists outside of the material world, as opposed to spiritualism, which, in Stellaris, posits that consciousness or spirit begets reality.
There's no way that the USA is materialist in Stellaris terms. In fact no human civilization would be materialist in Stellaris terms, except perhaps the EU.
Post by: Teneb on July 19, 2016, 03:28:08 pm
In fact no human civilization would be materialist in Stellaris terms, except perhaps the EU.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 19, 2016, 03:51:30 pm
In fact no human civilization would be materialist in Stellaris terms, except perhaps the EU.NorthBest Korea
nah, they're just straight up fanatic collectivist
Post by: Radsoc on July 19, 2016, 04:13:30 pm
Marxism is strictly materialist and not necessarily collectivist in the stellaris sense. However, the DPRK is somewhat an exception to this because of Juche, which furthermore highlights the role of the individual (great leader and so on).
The game is not very impartial to the question of materialism vs idealism, as it invents various special "powers" for spiritual civs.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 19, 2016, 04:20:28 pm
Materialism is materialism as in materialism vs idealism (as in "spirituality"), not as in the strive for more earthly goods.
Marxism is strictly materialist and not necessarily collectivist in the stellaris sense. However, the DPRK is somewhat an exception to this because of Juche, which furthermore highlights the role of the individual (great leader and so on).
Not even "somewhat". They've explicitly removed all references to socialism in the ideological platform. It's now solely about obedience and loyalty to the great leader, the absolute authority of Kim Il-Sung and his descendants, adherence to state ideology, etc.
Post by: Neonivek on July 19, 2016, 04:34:03 pm
MOST countries are individualists. Even though we do believe in collective efforts, we have a very strong belief in individual liberties and rights even if they become egregious to the whole.
The United States might have a lot of spiritual people... But its aims and society is more geared towards the physical and its goals... It also sees things from a purely materialist perspective as opposed to a spiritual.
Though Militarist might be stretching it.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 19, 2016, 05:22:57 pm
We have collectivists, but like someone pointed out, that's possible because individualists tolerate ethos drift :P
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 19, 2016, 05:38:37 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 19, 2016, 07:13:05 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on July 19, 2016, 07:24:08 pm
Fanatic Materialism + Military
The US has done a lot to gain access to strategic resources. The military is just one means of many to further the materialist goals. Capitalism Ho!
That's not what Materialism is about in Stellaris. Materialism is about denying that anything exists outside of the material world, as opposed to spiritualism, which, in Stellaris, posits that consciousness or spirit begets reality.
There's no way that the USA is materialist in Stellaris terms. In fact no human civilization would be materialist in Stellaris terms, except perhaps the EU.
The USSR was materialist in Stellaris terms, and modern China outright bans some portrayals of supernatural things.
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 19, 2016, 07:41:01 pm
The USSR was materialist in Stellaris terms, and modern China outright bans some portrayals of supernatural things.They only managed to get that World of Warcraft film in China cos the producer was a high ranking army official or some shit like that, everything else with ghosts, demons, supernatural stuff e.t.c. is just b& because it "encourages superstition"
Post by: JumpingJack on July 19, 2016, 09:00:07 pm
The game is not very impartial to the question of materialism vs idealism, as it invents various special "powers" for spiritual civs.You tryin' to tell me you don't want Jedis, boi?
If you plan on making a space Murrica AI empire, you'll want fanatic individualist militarists to give them the democratic crusader AI.This. Contemporary 'Murica's too much of a mixed bag to lean totally to either side of the Spiritualist/Materialist spectrum. To be portrayed accurately, its primary motivator must be
Of course, this is Sci-fi 'Murica, so anything's ultimately up for grabs.
But of course. You wouldn't want anyone's attention to be focused on anything exceptThe USSR was materialist in Stellaris terms, and modern China outright bans some portrayals of supernatural things.They only managed to get that World of Warcraft film in China cos the producer was a high ranking army official or some shit like that, everything else with ghosts, demons, supernatural stuff e.t.c. is just b& because it "encourages superstition"
Post by: Shadowlord on July 19, 2016, 09:26:57 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 19, 2016, 09:44:40 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 20, 2016, 01:52:28 am
Post by: Sartain on July 20, 2016, 02:26:54 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 20, 2016, 10:18:26 am
That's not what Materialism is about in Stellaris. Materialism is about denying that anything exists outside of the material world, as opposed to spiritualism, which, in Stellaris, posits that consciousness or spirit begets reality.
There's no way that the USA is materialist in Stellaris terms. In fact no human civilization would be materialist in Stellaris terms, except perhaps the EU.
The USSR was materialist in Stellaris terms, and modern China outright bans some portrayals of supernatural things.
[/quote]
China bans portrayals of supernatural things out of respect for the dead/ancestors. It's a cultural taboo, not because they are materialists.
And of course the USSR no longer exists, but if it did, I suppose it would be materialist.
Post by: JumpingJack on July 20, 2016, 01:07:14 pm
China bans portrayals of supernatural things out of respect for the dead/ancestors. It's a cultural taboo, not because they are materialists.Really? I wasn't aware of that. Still, though the average joe may not be a materialist, their government does follow a strictly materialistic agenda.
And of course the USSR no longer exists, but if it did, I suppose it would be materialist.
Post by: Neonivek on July 20, 2016, 01:14:46 pm
Quote
There's no way that the USA is materialist in Stellaris terms
No one would be a Fantatic Materialist.
Thinking of the universe as purely science with there being absolutely no other significance to the point where religion itself could be seen as a imposition on logic... Is closer Fanatic Materialist.
Spiritualism would be closer to the Jewish Tech Cult in Wolfenstien where they were hundreds of years ahead of their time in terms of technology but studied it as a way to reveal the greater design their creator made (to know science is to know God so to speak).
Medieval Towns are spiritualist.
With Fantatic Spiritualism being that spiritual matters are of the upmost importance, everything has to fold back into spiritualism.
---
Fanaticism is what is RARE to non-existent in human history. To the extent where you would usually have to be an alien in order to achieve some of these.
Post by: umiman on July 20, 2016, 01:20:23 pm
Though I have to say, personally I don't really mind it as I find it quite funny. We nobles do so enjoy watching the plebes and their little make belief squabbles after all.
----------
Edit: Also I think Neonivek is correct in that you guys are thinking too much on human terms.
And while I might have pointed out that the US spends more than all the other major world powers combined on military. I will now point out that in terms of the US's own national budget, they only spend about 20 - 25% on it, which is about the same as everyone else. They just make way more money.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I just like fucking with you guys.
Post by: JumpingJack on July 20, 2016, 01:30:19 pm
There is something eternally amusing about people arguing about countries they've never experienced.Pardon? I wasn't under the impression that anyone was arguing, just discussing quantifiable differences between nations, their people, and their governments, so that they could be modeled as accurately as possible.
It's like my renter. He has opinions about everything like how the UK should split from the EU or how France should embrace their peasant heritage (I don't get that part either) but he's never left North America or how China will conquer the world. Hell, he's never left Canada for longer than a week. But if you point that out he goes "you don't need to go to these places to know about them", which in and of itself is pretty hilarious. Because it's not wrong, but it's like saying you know what bacon tastes like because you've read all about it but have never actually eaten some.
But anyway, please continue. This is quite entertaining.
Edit: Also I think Neonivek is correct in that you guys are thinking too much on human terms.Most certainly, except when attempting to portray a galactic federation of humans.
And while I might have pointed out that the US spends more than all the other major world powers combined on military. I will now point out that in terms of the US's own national budget, they only spend about 20 - 25% on it, which is about the same as everyone else. They just make way more money.Who makes these charts? It's like they don't won't colorblind people to know where all the cash is going.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I just like fucking with you guys.
Post by: umiman on July 20, 2016, 01:37:06 pm
I wanted to link the one from the US government website, but it won't let me link.
Post by: Putnam on July 20, 2016, 02:42:47 pm
QuoteThere's no way that the USA is materialist in Stellaris terms
No one would be a Fantatic Materialist.
You mean culturally or individually? Fanatic materialist seems to fit me pretty well.
Post by: Teneb on July 20, 2016, 03:14:58 pm
Stellaris seems to deal with cultural almost exclusively. Pops are more like groups of like-minded people living mostly together, after all.You mean culturally or individually? Fanatic materialist seems to fit me pretty well.QuoteThere's no way that the USA is materialist in Stellaris termsNo one would be a Fantatic Materialist.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 20, 2016, 04:12:57 pm
Since that's from Wikipedia, I'll assume the Wikipedia gods made it. There's a chart floating around about how the US spends more than 50% on the military but that's absolute horseshit.
I wanted to link the one from the US government website, but it won't let me link.
It's not horseshit at all; it's a matter of whether you pad out the total federal budget with mandatory spending + interest on debt, or only look at what Congress actually chooses to spend money from year-to-year. As social security, medicare, and other programs are already set by law, and have separate payroll taxes to support them, it makes plenty of sense to consider them separately from all other government spending. They're ~2/3rds of all government spending, plus interest on the debt is ~6% of the budget. But they have their own rules and in many senses operate "automatically."
Discretionary spending is everything else - ~30%. Of that "everything else", Defense is a clear majority. $600 billion out of $1.1 trillion.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 20, 2016, 04:18:02 pm
Since that's from Wikipedia, I'll assume the Wikipedia gods made it. There's a chart floating around about how the US spends more than 50% on the military but that's absolute horseshit.
I wanted to link the one from the US government website, but it won't let me link.
It's bullshit. Our SS+Medicare+Medicaid spending is a larger portion of the budget than that. Last I heard, SS alone was ~23%.
Unsourced and deceptive infographics from the internet are meaningless.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 20, 2016, 04:34:40 pm
Since that's from Wikipedia, I'll assume the Wikipedia gods made it. There's a chart floating around about how the US spends more than 50% on the military but that's absolute horseshit.
I wanted to link the one from the US government website, but it won't let me link.
It's bullshit. Our SS+Medicare+Medicaid spending is a larger portion of the budget than that. Last I heard, SS alone was ~23%.
Again, those are not part of any yearly budget. They have been set by law for decades. Unlike regular spending, they work on an individual basis as to whether an individual has paid into the program. If you pay in for a sufficient period of time, you are entitled to receive payments at a future point. If not, you are not.
By contrast, the annual budget process is what lawmakers actually decide to spend money on from year-to-year, also called "discretionary spending." That is dominated by the Defense budget.
Quote
Unsourced and deceptive infographics from the internet are meaningless.
Well how about a graphics from the Congressional Budget Office, then?
(https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/images/pubs-images/50xxx/51112-Land_Discretionary.png)
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 20, 2016, 04:42:10 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on July 20, 2016, 04:46:00 pm
It's also deceptive as all hell to claim that half of annual federal spending goes to defense. Don't try to be coy or condescending about this. I despise how much we spend on a military designed to win a war that never really started, and that ended decades ago, but I despise liars more, particularly those that use statistics as their medium.
If you want to try to start flamewars with intentionally misleading data presentation there's a double handful of politics threads for you to do that in.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 20, 2016, 04:56:14 pm
Yes, defense spending is more-or-less half of discretionary spending.
It's also deceptive as all hell to claim that half of annual federal spending goes to defense. Don't try to be coy or condescending about this. I despise how much we spend on a military designed to win a war that never really started, and that ended decades ago, but I despise liars more, particularly those that use statistics as their medium.
If you want to try to start flamewars with intentionally misleading data presentation there's a double handful of politics threads for you to do that in.
So where is the misleading chart that umiman is complaining about? If it says "total discretionary spending" like mine does, from the CBO, where is the deception? Nobody said "half of all annual federal spending goes to defense."
It's hardly "misleading" put mandatory spending in a separate category from discretionary spending, because expenditures are a function of how many people have paid in and for how long. You qualify or you don't. Everything else works differently.
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 20, 2016, 04:58:35 pm
WHAT'S THE DEAL WITH THOSE BIRDS IN SPACE-SUITS? THEY'RE EVEN IN SPACE SUITS WHEN THEY'RE PRE SENTIENT!
I'M GLAD THAT YOU CAN'T HAVE A FLAMEWAR WITH BIRDS! BECAUSE OF THE SAPCE SUIT! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *weeps softly*
Post by: Dostoevsky on July 20, 2016, 05:14:26 pm
As has been noted, there's the split between so-called Mandatory spending and Discretionary spending.
Here's a handy set of charts from the White House's Office of Management and Budget: https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2017/assets/tables.pdf (just look at 2015 and 2016; the later years are merely projections under the President's proposed budget and pretty much never become law).
"Mandatory" is spending that is effectively automatic, pursuant to a previously-passed law. Congress could always change that law (with all the checks and balancing that passing a piece of legislation requires), but absent that the checks will be sent out.
"Discretionary" is spending that Congress must actively appropriate every fiscal year - that is, they must pass legislation directing how the money be spent (with varying degrees of specificity). When you hear talk about government shutdowns on the news, it's about Congress failing to pass the appropriations bills.
Discretionary, in turn, is often considered within two buckets: Defense Discretionary (DD) and Non-Defense Discretionary (NDD).
DD is the Department of Defense, plus some anti-terrorism bits and pieces from other agencies like the Dept. of Homeland Security, and generally makes up roughly half of the discretionary budget. There's also the magic slush fund known as "Overseas Contingency Operations," or OCO. OCO is just extra spending to get around budget caps that are in current law; these days it often adds up to roughly 10% additional funding to DD. There's also the black budget, which from what little we know probably works out to an additional 7-10% additional funding on top of OCO.
NDD is 'everything else' - transit, public lands, housing, energy, education, a whole slew of stuff. My work tends to be related to this bucket, but no need to get into further detail on this bucket here. I'll just add that NDD has its own form of OCO in a way: Emergency spending (e.g. funding to assist with things like natural disasters or epidemics). Usually not quite as big as OCO, but can still reach tens of billions of dollars per year.
(There are, of course, exceptions in both piles - some defense spending is only nominally related to actual defense, while some some military-related accounts like Veterans Affairs is NDD.)
In fiscal year 2016, mandatory "outlays" (that is, what's actually spent as opposed to what they merely planned to spend) were roughly 2.5 trillion dollars. Discretionary outlays were roughly 1.2 trillion dollars. Of Discretionary, roughly half was DD (600ish billion, which includes OCO but not the black budget).
[edit: I remembered my OMB charting methods wrong, and changed how I described OCO - it's in there after all, sorry.]
Bottom line, it's very roughly 600-700 billion out of total spending of 3.7 trillion dollars, or a little under 20 percent. At the same time, when Congress sits down and writes their annual omnibus appropriations bill (having failed to pass the individual bills they're supposed to but almost never actually do) about 50 percent goes to Defense. It's a bit Tomato, Tomahto.
All that said, being militaristic can be cultural as much as it is spending buckets of cash. The latest patch got rid of the upkeep bonuses for being militaristic, right?
Post by: umiman on July 20, 2016, 06:46:16 pm
Post by: JumpingJack on July 20, 2016, 07:31:06 pm
-insert thorough write-up here-That is far more partially off-topic yet relevant info than I ever could've hoped for. I thank you, sir.
If I was the Joker, I'd be Joker Venom bombing you right now for ruining my entertainment.
Spoiler: Obligatory (click to show/hide)
Post by: PTTG?? on July 20, 2016, 07:45:51 pm
SO HOW ABOUT THOSE SPACE ALIENS HUH?!
WHAT'S THE DEAL WITH THOSE BIRDS IN SPACE-SUITS? THEY'RE EVEN IN SPACE SUITS WHEN THEY'RE PRE SENTIENT!
I'M GLAD THAT YOU CAN'T HAVE A FLAMEWAR WITH BIRDS! BECAUSE OF THE SAPCE SUIT! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *weeps softly*
HA HA, THOSE WACKY PRE-SENTIENT SPACE BIRDS.
Post by: Sirus on July 20, 2016, 07:54:30 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 20, 2016, 08:28:40 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 20, 2016, 08:56:37 pm
FIFYSO HOW ABOUT THOSE SPACE ALIENS HUH?!
WHAT'S THE DEAL WITH THOSE dinosaurs IN SPACE-SUITS? THEY'RE EVEN IN SPACE SUITS WHEN THEY'RE PRE SENTIENT!
I'M GLAD THAT YOU CAN'T HAVE A FLAMEWAR WITH dinosaurs! BECAUSE OF THE SAPCE SUIT! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *weeps softly*
HA HA, THOSE WACKY PRE-SENTIENT SPACE dinosaurs.
Post by: varnish on July 20, 2016, 09:29:11 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on July 20, 2016, 09:43:50 pm
(http://www.elite-games.ru/images/othersgames/moo2/moo2_silicoids.gif)
Everyone knows silicoids don't need spacesuits and infest the entire galaxy with their repulsive tolerant lithovoreness.
It is, of course, completely impossible to recreate them in Stellaris.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 20, 2016, 09:56:12 pm
Post by: Putnam on July 20, 2016, 09:59:44 pm
Post by: Neonivek on July 20, 2016, 10:01:07 pm
Because... we are already thinking of having colonies on uninhabitable planets... and sci-fi can't make it happen in this setting?
Post by: Teneb on July 20, 2016, 10:02:11 pm
The non-habitable planets more then anything SCREAMS "We are going to add DLC!"You can actually mod that in. There is even a mod for it I think?
Because... we are already thinking of having colonies on uninhabitable planets... and sci-fi can't make it happen in this setting?
Post by: Neonivek on July 20, 2016, 10:03:08 pm
The non-habitable planets more then anything SCREAMS "We are going to add DLC!"You can actually mod that in. There is even a mod for it I think?
Because... we are already thinking of having colonies on uninhabitable planets... and sci-fi can't make it happen in this setting?
Well yes... There are mods that let you build Rimworlds.
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 20, 2016, 11:23:53 pm
Post by: Neonivek on July 20, 2016, 11:36:49 pm
Ring worlds?
Yes :P
Post by: Dostoevsky on July 21, 2016, 12:56:14 am
That is far more partially off-topic yet relevant info than I ever could've hoped for. I thank you, sir.
Happy to help. U.S. budgeting practice is a rather awkward edifice that could probably do with some reform, but that's a discussion for a different sub-forum.
If I was the Joker, I'd be Joker Venom bombing you right now for ruining my entertainment.
Apologies. I just can't resist a chance to engage in some glorious pedagoguery.
You can actually mod that in. There is even a mod for it I think?
And yes, several of the tech mods out there provide various ways to inhabit worlds that are uninhabitable in vanilla, either through terraforming or things like dome-colonies.
Additionally - the true solution to all your spacesuit-wearing bird problems is to download the Preussens Gloria! Avian clothes mod (and, while you're at it, other mods made by Ofaloaf). Now your spacesuit birds will become diving suit birds, regardless of their actual tech level. Much better, yes?
Post by: Sprin on July 22, 2016, 02:18:03 pm
Post by: Putnam on July 22, 2016, 03:04:19 pm
Anyone have any advice on building warships?
1. Build based on your enemy. This essentially ends up meaning pick either point defense-heavy builds or damage-heavy builds.
2. If you're going to use weapons that pierce 100% of shield, only use weapons that pierce 100% of shield. Efficiency is key.
3. If you have crystal plating, it's basically better than shield in almost all cases. Shields take up power and any enemy that uses missiles or bombers will pierce them whenever they hit anyway.
4. Endgame, tachyon lances are the best damaging weapon in the game bar none. Even after being nerfed, their range and armor piercing makes them outclass everything else. This means that, in the endgame, shield-ignoring weapons are basically worthless and.
My current game, all my hostile neighbors use missiles nigh-exclusively, so I'm completely ignoring shields and focusing quite a bit on point defense. It's a rare day where any damage is done to my ships at all since tachyon lances from the battleships tear through them and fighters shoot down missiles as they pass by. I also have ion disruptors on my corvettes, but I think that may be a bad idea since tachyon lances are liable to tear away all of an enemy's shield before the corvettes even get in range. Seriously, those things are bonkers, I think just using corvettes as point defense platforms might be more efficient.
In general, shields have way too many counters to be worth it. A lot of weapons and bombers go right through them, disruptors do double damage to them, and in general armor's a better bet. Armor may be diminishing returns, but crystal plating is not. Notably, I don't have crystal plating in my game, but I still usually don't use shields.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 22, 2016, 04:35:44 pm
Quote from: Wiki, last updated for 1.0
Armor provides a linear damage reduction against incoming attacks. Every 60 points of armor increase the "Effective Hull Points" (EHP) by 100%. For example, a 60 Armor Battleship would be able to take 4800 (2400 + 2400) damage before being destroyed, and a 120 Armor Battleship would be able to take 7200 damage before being destroyed (2400 + 2400 + 2400) This means that despite the misleading "% Damage Reduction" listed in the ship designer, Armor does not suffer from diminishing returns.Right, figured it was something like that. Remember that percentages build off themselves, so it's often hard to tell if the actual benefits are slowing down just because the numerical values are.
Post by: Sprin on July 22, 2016, 06:45:52 pm
Post by: Retropunch on July 23, 2016, 07:21:31 am
Anyone have any advice on building warships?
I've been playing a game with very aggressive AI on, and I've been actually having quite a lot of fun with the combat. The key is to have forces that complement each other - get some very heavily armoured battleships that engage at close range and pull the fire whilst you have long range strikers sitting at the back giving out damage (and a few carriers as well). I also have a floating anti-missile fleet which I merge with my main battle force(s) if going against a missile based enemy.
As an aside, sub space snares on fortresses work a treat. I got so annoyed with the AI jumping in and jumping straight out, making it an endless game of cat and mouse which just ends up getting way too micromanage-y for my liking. Subspace snares just drag them in and at about 6k of force do a hell of a lot of damage to most forces even if they're not able to take them out.
Post by: Retropunch on July 23, 2016, 08:22:58 am
The great thing about the snares too is that it doesn't matter WHERE the station is in the system. If anyone tries to get into there, they're being pulled into the fortress.It's
Yeah!! They're great for setting ambushes, and a few times against numerically superior forces I've managed to win by just waiting for them to come to my snared fortress (or baiting them there!)
The AI isn't too clever though with how they handle fleets - most tend to have one or two major fleets so once you've wiped that out they're easy pickings. They also just throw anything at you once you're attacking stuff, so after you've destroyed the main fleet you get just one or two ships coming in at a time that are about 200 strength. I realised that you can basically just stay in one place and just wait for them to throw those at you (and get a few percent warscore each time) until the war is won.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 23, 2016, 01:06:03 pm
Post by: Retropunch on July 23, 2016, 01:35:18 pm
The snare seems like a stupid mechanic to me. Just means you have to send one ship ahead of the rest of the fleet all the time. Added layer of tedium and all that.
I'm not sure what you mean - do you mean when you're attacking? I guess that never really bothers me, because I just sort of treat it like fighting another fleet that happens to be stationary. I normally don't attack unless I have overwhelming odds anyway, and instead draw the attackers to my front lines where I can fight them on my terms if I don't think I can beat a big fleet + fortress.
For me, any tedium it causes is far outweighed by the tedium of having to do endless cat and mouse with the enemy.
Post by: PTTG?? on July 23, 2016, 03:05:44 pm
The only mod (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=704016024) which appears to add it does so in a really limited way.
Post by: Sirus on July 23, 2016, 03:28:51 pm
I mean...when you have nearly infinite space to play around in, space warfare probably would end up being one massive cat-and-mouse game. The only time that would be an exception is when the objective is a large, relatively stationary object that fleets could condense around.The snare seems like a stupid mechanic to me. Just means you have to send one ship ahead of the rest of the fleet all the time. Added layer of tedium and all that.
I'm not sure what you mean - do you mean when you're attacking? I guess that never really bothers me, because I just sort of treat it like fighting another fleet that happens to be stationary. I normally don't attack unless I have overwhelming odds anyway, and instead draw the attackers to my front lines where I can fight them on my terms if I don't think I can beat a big fleet + fortress.
For me, any tedium it causes is far outweighed by the tedium of having to do endless cat and mouse with the enemy.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 23, 2016, 03:34:41 pm
There's not really much defense against hi-v asteroids or tungsten rods. Most space combat is really just naval combat with shiny toys, because realistically it's just MAD.
Post by: Sirus on July 23, 2016, 03:47:49 pm
And since you can't seem to destroy planets in Stellaris, we can assume that even the most warlike species with the most liberal bombardment policies avoids the use of God Rods and the like.
Post by: Neonivek on July 23, 2016, 03:50:12 pm
You wouldn't want to use weapons like those if you wanted to take a planet for yourself, though. Even a barrage of conventional WMDs would render much of the place uninhabitable.
And since you can't seem to destroy planets in Stellaris, we can assume that even the most warlike species with the most liberal bombardment policies avoids the use of God Rods and the like.
I do find it funny that the blockers created by weapon fire are... ordinary blockers (like Toxic Kelp, mountains, or Icebergs)
It makes me wonder if that was an oversight or a shortcut... Since it is really funny : 3
Post by: kilakan on July 23, 2016, 03:51:53 pm
You wouldn't want to use weapons like those if you wanted to take a planet for yourself, though. Even a barrage of conventional WMDs would render much of the place uninhabitable.I really do wish you could destroy worlds ala Distant worlds. The closest thing you can do in stellaris is capture them and then purge all the population....
And since you can't seem to destroy planets in Stellaris, we can assume that even the most warlike species with the most liberal bombardment policies avoids the use of God Rods and the like.
Post by: Persus13 on July 23, 2016, 05:15:43 pm
Post by: inteuniso on July 23, 2016, 06:49:33 pm
You wouldn't want to use weapons like those if you wanted to take a planet for yourself, though. Even a barrage of conventional WMDs would render much of the place uninhabitable.I really do wish you could destroy worlds ala Distant worlds. The closest thing you can do in stellaris is capture them and then purge all the population....
And since you can't seem to destroy planets in Stellaris, we can assume that even the most warlike species with the most liberal bombardment policies avoids the use of God Rods and the like.
You can't release all of the expansions with vanilla... even vanilla DW didn't have world destroyers.
Post by: Shadowlord on July 23, 2016, 06:58:24 pm
Post by: Culise on July 23, 2016, 07:06:22 pm
Post by: kilakan on July 24, 2016, 08:43:03 am
No but vanilla DW did have nuclear weapons you could use for bombardment that destroyed habitability/population fairly fast.... at least I think it did.You wouldn't want to use weapons like those if you wanted to take a planet for yourself, though. Even a barrage of conventional WMDs would render much of the place uninhabitable.I really do wish you could destroy worlds ala Distant worlds. The closest thing you can do in stellaris is capture them and then purge all the population....
And since you can't seem to destroy planets in Stellaris, we can assume that even the most warlike species with the most liberal bombardment policies avoids the use of God Rods and the like.
You can't release all of the expansions with vanilla... even vanilla DW didn't have world destroyers.
Post by: LoSboccacc on July 26, 2016, 03:31:59 am
I mean...when you have nearly infinite space to play around in, space warfare probably would end up being one massive cat-and-mouse game. The only time that would be an exception is when the objective is a large, relatively stationary object that fleets could condense around.The snare seems like a stupid mechanic to me. Just means you have to send one ship ahead of the rest of the fleet all the time. Added layer of tedium and all that.
I'm not sure what you mean - do you mean when you're attacking? I guess that never really bothers me, because I just sort of treat it like fighting another fleet that happens to be stationary. I normally don't attack unless I have overwhelming odds anyway, and instead draw the attackers to my front lines where I can fight them on my terms if I don't think I can beat a big fleet + fortress.
For me, any tedium it causes is far outweighed by the tedium of having to do endless cat and mouse with the enemy.
yes, and you'd get generals to help in the endless positioning required for defending. in stellaris instead you get ganged up by federations, using dozens splinter fleets you need to all track and follow and predict manually
Post by: Putnam on July 26, 2016, 06:31:18 pm
Also, fuck federations fleets. I made a 300 population fleet, 6 battleships, 24 cruisers, 42 destroyers, 72 corvettes, probably the second most powerful fleet in the entire galaxy outside my own personal fleet, perfectly designed to combat all of the federation's enemies (point defense on every corvette, fighters on every cruiser, 2 battleships had fighters, 4 had nothing but tachyon lances). They dismantled it the instant they got control of the federation and replaced it with a bunch of worthless fleets with some tiny amount of corvettes and cruisers each. The fuck's the point if they get rid of it all the instant they get control? I had to pay for all of it myself, goddamn, plus, 100 out of the 300 population involved in that was provided by me out of my own population, so come on, I'm rich and powerful and you people ain't, let me help you.
EDIT: And you know what, more AI complaining, I also had to personally destroy the entire prethoryn scourge myself despite the aforementioned federation fleet being perfectly prethoryn busting and getting into control of my allies, all of whom were getting completely walloped by the prethoryns with me being the only one with no risk associated, because for some reason they don't consider prethoryns an actual threat even though they're the only threat at all.
EDIT 2: Also, every time you delete a federation fleet design it resets to your standard fleet UI instead of the federation design UI. Completely awful. Don't bother with federations.
Post by: Teneb on July 26, 2016, 07:08:57 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on August 01, 2016, 05:25:11 am
1.3 patch notes aren't out yet, although apparently next week's diary will have more information. They've gone back on some of their earlier plans so as to add a bunch of community suggestions, hopefully they'll be enough to lift my self-imposed ban on looking at sector planets
There's also a small update being released on the 4th along with plantpack. Not sure what's in there yet.
Post by: Putnam on August 01, 2016, 09:35:48 pm
well okay i mean unless they fix federation fleets and such somewhat
Post by: Neonivek on August 01, 2016, 09:41:34 pm
But... how about, I dunno crazy idea, instead of having a Federation victory... instead you just allow Federations to qualify for the ordinary victory conditions?
Still isn't worth being in a federation though.
Post by: Orange Wizard on August 01, 2016, 09:44:35 pm
Post by: Neonivek on August 01, 2016, 09:56:05 pm
Weren't federations mostly intended for multiplayer groups?
That would certainly explain a lot...
But I'd think no...
Post by: ZeroGravitas on August 01, 2016, 09:58:10 pm
Weren't federations mostly intended for multiplayer groups?
absolutely not. whatever gave you that idea?
in any case, the federation joint victory condition was touted in pre-release streams. so maybe at some point development will catch up to what was promised 6 months ago. interesting that it's now a separate case, though.
Post by: Neonivek on August 01, 2016, 10:01:44 pm
Weren't federations mostly intended for multiplayer groups?
absolutely not. whatever gave you that idea?
Because frankly... the way they are designed would only be entertaining in actual multiplayer.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on August 01, 2016, 10:03:21 pm
Weren't federations mostly intended for multiplayer groups?
absolutely not. whatever gave you that idea?
Because frankly... the way they are designed would only be entertaining in actual multiplayer.
the way they are designed, or the way they are implemented?
Post by: Neonivek on August 01, 2016, 10:05:32 pm
Mind you, I don't think it is the case. It is just easy to see why someone would think that given it is anti-fun.
Post by: IronyOwl on August 02, 2016, 05:07:56 am
jesus christ how horrifying (https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/760133974001844226)"People were complaining about the game being too easy, so we added a new challenge mode!"
well okay i mean unless they fix federation fleets and such somewhat
Post by: sprinkled chariot on August 03, 2016, 07:26:38 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on August 03, 2016, 08:27:12 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on August 03, 2016, 10:24:47 am
Implemented?
Mind you, I don't think it is the case. It is just easy to see why someone would think that given it is anti-fun.
But that's just standard Paradox. Create a game that works reasonably well for the first 10 hours of a campaign, and then add another 50 hours of absolute drudgery, including half-finished features that make finishing the campaign incredibly annoying.
Post by: Neonivek on August 03, 2016, 10:43:36 am
Implemented?
Mind you, I don't think it is the case. It is just easy to see why someone would think that given it is anti-fun.
But that's just standard Paradox. Create a game that works reasonably well for the first 10 hours of a campaign, and then add another 50 hours of absolute drudgery, including half-finished features that make finishing the campaign incredibly annoying.
Welcome to videogames! Where you either get the first 10 hours being the most fun, or the final 10 with nothing inbetween.
Post by: Egan_BW on August 03, 2016, 03:49:48 pm
Post by: Putnam on August 03, 2016, 05:02:02 pm
Biggest changes are that armour is slightly less worthless
and shields aren't, so the strategy is basically the same but you probably shouldn't have shields basically ever
Post by: ZeroGravitas on August 03, 2016, 06:35:39 pm
Implemented?
Mind you, I don't think it is the case. It is just easy to see why someone would think that given it is anti-fun.
But that's just standard Paradox. Create a game that works reasonably well for the first 10 hours of a campaign, and then add another 50 hours of absolute drudgery, including half-finished features that make finishing the campaign incredibly annoying.
Welcome to videogames! Where you either get the first 10 hours being the most fun, or the final 10 with nothing inbetween.
what in the world are you talking about? besides a paradox game i have literally never experienced that
Most good games (:P) don't last 10 hours in the first place. And of course there's yer open-world fallout types, which last over 10 hours and manage to be exactly as boring the whole way through.
again, what?? i don't think i've bought a game in years that i didn't play for at least 10 hours (assuming i ever got around to playing it in the first place)
Post by: Neonivek on August 03, 2016, 08:19:15 pm
Quote
what in the world are you talking about? besides a paradox game i have literally never experienced that
Most games are either front loaded... or backloaded.
For a game that is backloaded look to any and almost all MMOs ever made ever.
For a front loaded game, that doesn't suck, try Duke Nukem 3d where the starting levels usually have more effort and details then any other level in the game.
Though I am exaggerating with the "Nothing inbetween"... since the TYPICAL RPG... Has an incredibly boring and tedious start... and incredibly boring ending...
So I think it is more that games are either front loaded, mid loaded, or back loaded... with no game actually spreading its content well through all of them.
Post by: Shadowlord on August 03, 2016, 08:44:27 pm
I'd also mention the Steins;Gate VN, but that's a VN and I don't know how much time I spent playing it. A lot, I think, but I don't have numbers.
Post by: Neonivek on August 03, 2016, 10:31:31 pm
Though if you want my personal exception to the rule? Wonderful 101
Post by: Shadowlord on August 04, 2016, 03:11:59 pm
Post by: Taricus on August 04, 2016, 04:25:24 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on August 04, 2016, 04:47:08 pm
It sounds like it's just art and stuff. I suppose that's sensible. They can have the artists work on that kind of thing while the coders are bug-fixing and working on gameplay.
Post by: Shadowlord on August 04, 2016, 05:31:42 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on August 04, 2016, 05:42:58 pm
Post by: umiman on August 04, 2016, 05:44:54 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on August 04, 2016, 06:49:55 pm
Didn't Paradox realise that you can allow naming and include a button that does either a random name or a name taken from the name list?You can do this tho
US$8 for that is pretty fucked up.Yeah I'll be waiting for a nice big sale to get that
Post by: Karnewarrior on August 04, 2016, 07:22:10 pm
How do you reroll? Whenever I colonise one it just comes up with the name bar.There's a little dice button in the corner. It'll select names from the name list randomly.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on August 04, 2016, 11:31:59 pm
How do you reroll? Whenever I colonise one it just comes up with the name bar.There's a little dice button in the corner. It'll select names from the name list randomly.
Can't believe i didn't notice it.
Post by: Neonivek on August 04, 2016, 11:35:05 pm
Ignoring that several of the plant people look alike (and look similar to another species) and that frankly their obsession with muted colors goes a bit too far (What are the developers allergic to color?)
GOODNESS does this pack feel... I guess it is to say... Racist?
Yeah it is a silly thing to say... But if feels like the ships were designed by what someone who was racist against plant people would come up with.
Yet I would forgive even that if the ships were interesting. When I saw a picture of a Plant station and thought it was a ship I was impressed... until I was like "No idiot it is just a station".
So all in all... Their cosmetic DLC is nothing to write home about. Honestly they are surprisingly skipable.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on August 04, 2016, 11:42:09 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on August 05, 2016, 12:12:32 am
Post by: Karnewarrior on August 12, 2016, 11:04:13 pm
Spoiler: Sprin\Karne\BFEL\NOCTIUS's grand Stellaris game Part 1 (click to show/hide)
What this is missing is the Spanish segment at the beginning, a limitation of not being able to live-post the quotes. in either case, for our benefit if nothing else:
(http://www.geocities.ws/k_srasra/cucaracha.jpg)
Post by: JumpingJack on August 12, 2016, 11:39:18 pm
-snip-
That was remarkably entertaining. ¡Viva la cucaracha!
Post by: kilakan on August 13, 2016, 08:27:00 am
Post by: Rolan7 on August 13, 2016, 11:27:03 am
Post by: Sirus on August 13, 2016, 03:19:36 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on August 13, 2016, 08:31:35 pm
So this game has been released for a while. What sort of mods do people recommend?I actually built a necessary mod list while we were working on the multiplayer
These are the mods I feel are necessary right now for an interesting, immersive game. I run a plethora of other ones, but I could play without them. I don't really want to play without these ones.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sirus on August 13, 2016, 10:20:53 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on August 14, 2016, 03:28:37 am
Most of those are out of dateSo this game has been released for a while. What sort of mods do people recommend?I actually built a necessary mod list while we were working on the multiplayer
These are the mods I feel are necessary right now for an interesting, immersive game. I run a plethora of other ones, but I could play without them. I don't really want to play without these ones.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: EnigmaticHat on August 14, 2016, 06:09:19 am
While most of those do seem pretty self useful, I have to ask... a mod that puts boobs on the foxes is necessary for you to have fun with the game?So this game has been released for a while. What sort of mods do people recommend?I actually built a necessary mod list while we were working on the multiplayer
These are the mods I feel are necessary right now for an interesting, immersive game. I run a plethora of other ones, but I could play without them. I don't really want to play without these ones.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kot on August 14, 2016, 06:31:45 am
FOX TITSDon't judge him. :s
Post by: Putnam on August 14, 2016, 06:49:52 am
While most of those do seem pretty self useful, I have to ask... a mod that puts boobs on the foxes is necessary for you to have fun with the game?So this game has been released for a while. What sort of mods do people recommend?I actually built a necessary mod list while we were working on the multiplayer
These are the mods I feel are necessary right now for an interesting, immersive game. I run a plethora of other ones, but I could play without them. I don't really want to play without these ones.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
listen there is basically no way to tell if a character is male or female normally unless they're humanform anything that adds more dimorphism is good
Post by: Orange Wizard on August 14, 2016, 06:53:03 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 14, 2016, 10:33:13 am
There's also no reason that the sex of the character should matter, or even that alien species should have two or any other number of genders.While most of those do seem pretty self useful, I have to ask... a mod that puts boobs on the foxes is necessary for you to have fun with the game?So this game has been released for a while. What sort of mods do people recommend?I actually built a necessary mod list while we were working on the multiplayer
These are the mods I feel are necessary right now for an interesting, immersive game. I run a plethora of other ones, but I could play without them. I don't really want to play without these ones.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
listen there is basically no way to tell if a character is male or female normally unless they're humanform anything that adds more dimorphism is good
Post by: Shadowlord on August 14, 2016, 11:51:08 am
A couple of the slugs have different colours for male/female iirc
What about color-blind people? Better add some slug-tits. #sarcasm
I think the birds in the power/space suits are nice.
Post by: Teneb on August 14, 2016, 11:51:44 am
It's also nice how they use spacesuits even if they are a bunch of medieval primitives.A couple of the slugs have different colours for male/female iirc
What about color-blind people? Better add some slug-tits. #sarcasm
I think the birds in the power/space suits are nice.
Post by: Shadowlord on August 14, 2016, 11:53:48 am
It's also nice how they use spacesuits even if they are a bunch of medieval primitives.A couple of the slugs have different colours for male/female iirc
What about color-blind people? Better add some slug-tits. #sarcasm
I think the birds in the power/space suits are nice.
Yes, haha.
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 14, 2016, 03:32:55 pm
Yet something caught my eye and the eye of my researcher Takama (with both my scientist and the heir being called Takama, I suspected the Crown Princess was sneaking off to be a scientist) and the explorator fleet was sent immediately to investigate. The fleet had to turn back due to the abrupt discovery of Haan'Felir Primacy, an Empire whose might eclipsed ours as we eclipsed space ants, but our second attempt at reaching the anomaly proved fruitful.
There had to be a reason why we were so drawn to this anomaly.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The United Nations of Earth had no interest in us beyond academic, not even accepting our vassalage. The Divine Tzar Bao Miroslav was heartbroken that his human brothers would rather stand alone than with his flock.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Foul federation builders of the worst kind, these evil hypocrites were genetic conformists that espoused the values of unrestrained individualism. Worse still, the xenos heretics were materialists who doubted our word, and demanded we allow them to peacefully expand into our stars or follow their dastardly president. The worst sin of all, they had sullied the good name of the poor people of the United Nations, by tricking them into cavorting with xenos over their good own species (It's what the Bao Broadcasting Corporation said, and if you disagree, go away Yax'Kalockian shills).
We told the Yax'Kalockians quite diplomatically that they would burn for being xeno heretics, and went on on our way.
The Yax'Kalockians didn't take that as a good sign of things to come, and was perhaps a mistake.
Post by: JumpingJack on August 14, 2016, 04:06:31 pm
[Insert Miroslav]Yes. I've been waiting for this.
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 15, 2016, 06:06:12 am
All according to keikaku
The CNS Fleet under Olga successfully lost by just the right amount, forcing the Yax'Kalockians to liberate the planet of Pallyria in negotiations. The Yax'Kalockians went home exuberant, believing they had defeated the humans and contained their threat, not knowing they had merely succeeded in helping Bao move the capital of the Commonwealth to where it all began:
Planet Earth.
Giving Pallyria over to the United Nations' descendants didn't seem like all that bad of an outcome either, given that they didn't like our government (best government, heaven wills it), and wanted their own democracy. Suddenly they got their own democracy and the best galactic neighbourhood to explore - everyone won!
(And in gameplay terms, I was giving up the ubersystem to the AI Human Galactic Nation in exchange for a pretty mediocre system, as to hold onto the god-tier system and expand would be so OP as to not provide any challenge).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The Takama Shrineworld was named in honour of the Tzar's daughter, and was a Shrineworld because as a category 25 continental planet sitting on the doorstep of the capital, it was easily the most valuable planet in the entire galaxy (to the COM). Valuable in terms of real wealth potential - it could become a massive Research planet, power plant, agri-world or industrial hive-world, a fleet manufactury or advanced resource processor, and it would be without parallel outside of the fallen Empires.
Furthermore, the planet itself was beautiful. Tidally locked in orbit with the star Felzadir, half the country was in eternal darkness and the other half in eternal light, with the fauna having evolved to be stunning in day, night and twilight. Pilgrims from across the galaxy would flock to this one floating cosmic rock to marvel at its natural wonder. Thus it made sense to make this THE Shrineworld.
Each ruler of a Divine Mandate may in his or her lifetime construct their own Mausoleum on one planet, to remind all the people of the lessons to learn from them in life, and the mistakes they made leading to death. The Mausoleum is a grand structure with little productive use beyond this. Thus (with some modding to allow multiple Mausoleums to be built on a planet), the Takama Shrineworld was born. Eventually there will come a point where all the productive factories and engineering labs are gone, and in their place only endless ranks of Mausoleums dedicated to the great teachers; it shall be a total rejection of materialism for the sake of a monument to all the COM stands for.
In gameplay terms it will be an unproductive brick that completely tanks my research and serves little purpose beyond being a Fortress within a Fortress, which is appropriate for a militiaristic spiritualistic xenophobic space Empire. We don't need original science where we're going, bahahaha.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
She commanded our fleet well,
Bringing one of the amoeba to hell,
With flagellators ahead,
Her own navigator dead,
She brought one more amoeba to hell.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Upon the death of Admiral Olga, our research vessel tried to return home (as its guardian fleet was now dead), and found it could not. It set to researching upon the planets within the new Human Galactic Nation (the successor to the Terran United Nations), whilst Bao's daughter, Tzarina Takama Miroslav, set upon dealing with why our research team was barred from returning.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
"NO JIMMY, NO, THIS IS NOT THE HUMAN GALACTIC WAY"
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Tzarina Takama Miroslav had four options. The first was to surrender and seek vassalage under the guidance of the Yax'Kalockians, gaining access through their territories and subverting their Empire from within. The second was to try and make amenable relations by not being so hostile to them, which was not an attractive option because it did not deal with their frontier outpost on our side of the Orantes cloud. (As an aside, the human and yax sides of the cloud were separated by some inhospitable star systems that held no habitable planets, and whose only life consisted of hostile autonomous mining units neither of us owned, providing a buffer we could not change without invading the other's sides - as the yax'kalockians had done to us).
Takama led the humans to victory without much of note to be said. The mighty Yax'Kalockian fleet launched itself for another assault on Earth, but Admiral Lobtikka sailed into defeat.
'It's a trap!'
Shortly before the Yax'Kalockian fleet found itself caught atop a Snare Class Fortress, a minefield and two interlocking fields of Excellence Class Fortresses. Salvoes and salvoes of torpedoes and a small contingent of attack craft launched themselves at the Yax'Kalockian fleet, wiping out many of their screening corvettes. As soon as he could admiral Lobtikka led a swift emergency recall out of Felzadir Gate, right into the waiting men and women of the Olga Armada.
The Dauntless battleship, Obnoxious battleship, Watchdog battleship and three audacity cruisers made mincemeat of their fleet.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The West was an ant-version of COM, and the East version was the regular hive mind democracy full of sheeple ants.
During the COM-Yax wars, the COM had annexed two of the Yax'Kalockians' planets. We had no desire to have Yax'Kalockians in our Empire or to rule over them as masters, we just needed to stop them projecting influence northwards so we could settle Pesch with humans. Thus the autonomous Bucktryx Tymtryx sector was born.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
As a last note, to gauge how physically weak the Yax'Kalockians are, I deliberately sabotaged the defences of Bucktryx so that the liberal loyalists could successfully liberate their country and return it to East Yax'Kalockian nation. What I did not count on were that two pops worth of Yax'Kalockians had adopted our way; two COM loyalists vs the entire planet of Yax loyalists. The COM loyalists won, sitting within their bunkers, with worf guns worfing.
Thus I got stuck with the Yax'Kalockians.
Yes. I've been waiting for this.Brace yourself for walls of cosmic text
Post by: Greiger on August 16, 2016, 09:42:38 pm
I haven't played in awhile so I donno if it's changed but I used to run that mod. All it does is change facial characteristics. Males have a dark stripe along their noses and I think there's a difference in nose and ear length between the sexes too.While most of those do seem pretty self useful, I have to ask... a mod that puts boobs on the foxes is necessary for you to have fun with the game?So this game has been released for a while. What sort of mods do people recommend?I actually built a necessary mod list while we were working on the multiplayer
These are the mods I feel are necessary right now for an interesting, immersive game. I run a plethora of other ones, but I could play without them. I don't really want to play without these ones.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 17, 2016, 06:05:15 am
Post by: Dostoevsky on August 17, 2016, 12:20:16 pm
Post by: Greiger on August 17, 2016, 12:39:05 pm
That said, one of my little annoyances with the game is not being able to tell differences between males and females of the vast majority of the races. It has no gameplay effect sure, but what's the point of coding a system like that if you are going to use it for one vanilla species and nothing else? It makes you feel like you are missing game features unless you play humans.
I don't want to play humans. I'm a human 100% of my boring real life up to this point, and I don't forsee that being able to change in my lifetime. I want to play as something else in my videogames now and then thanks.
Post by: umiman on August 17, 2016, 12:48:09 pm
Ah my bad then, looks like there are multiple mods with similar names.*Ahem* (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTYpKlIc_fg)
That said, one of my little annoyances with the game is not being able to tell differences between males and females of the vast majority of the races. It has no gameplay effect sure, but what's the point of coding a system like that if you are going to use it for one vanilla species and nothing else?
Post by: Retropunch on August 17, 2016, 02:16:26 pm
That said, one of my little annoyances with the game is not being able to tell differences between males and females of the vast majority of the races. It has no gameplay effect sure, but what's the point of coding a system like that if you are going to use it for one vanilla species and nothing else? It makes you feel like you are missing game features unless you play humans.
Because otherwise you'll get tumblrinas going absolutely mental over the lack of/perceived lack of female representation. The forums would be alight with people saying that they wanted to be a female oblozsgorsh and could only be a male version and that it's sexist.
Post by: Teneb on August 17, 2016, 02:20:53 pm
Or it could be for the same reason as in EU4: it is completely irrelevant except for the writing of AARs.That said, one of my little annoyances with the game is not being able to tell differences between males and females of the vast majority of the races. It has no gameplay effect sure, but what's the point of coding a system like that if you are going to use it for one vanilla species and nothing else? It makes you feel like you are missing game features unless you play humans.Because otherwise you'll get tumblrinas going absolutely mental over the lack of/perceived lack of female representation. The forums would be alight with people saying that they wanted to be a female oblozsgorsh and could only be a male version and that it's sexist.
Post by: Retropunch on August 17, 2016, 02:51:45 pm
Or it could be for the same reason as in EU4: it is completely irrelevant except for the writing of AARs.Pretty much the same thing really - it's just in to make sure that everyone is catered for. There's nothing wrong with it, but the reason behind it is so that no one gets angry.
Post by: JumpingJack on August 17, 2016, 03:40:31 pm
Because otherwise you'll get tumblrinas going absolutely mental over the lack of/perceived lack of female representation. The forums would be alight with people saying that they wanted to be a female oblozsgorsh and could only be a male version and that it's sexist.If that's what they're worried about, then you'd think they would've considered the fact that there only being two genders available is sexist as well. Rally the peasants, light the torches, brandish the pitchforks! /s
In all seriousness, I could see fox boobs being a DLC. Some would hate it, some would love it, and everyone would shamefully buy it.
Post by: Descan on August 17, 2016, 03:59:29 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on August 17, 2016, 04:12:36 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on August 17, 2016, 06:38:00 pm
I find it more plausible that it's there for immersion and variety of the non-political sort. Similar to how the images move because it makes them seem more alive, not because being still would make athletic people angry, or they're divided into loose racial categories for organization and background purposes, not because the biologists would be on them otherwise. They apparently drew the line at trying to figure out what should differentiate sexes, but including two genders and a handful of colorations doesn't strike me as unusual or pandering enough to look like it was done out of fear.Or it could be for the same reason as in EU4: it is completely irrelevant except for the writing of AARs.Pretty much the same thing really - it's just in to make sure that everyone is catered for. There's nothing wrong with it, but the reason behind it is so that no one gets angry.
like give it a fucking rest, guys. you're worse than the trolls and poes you're angry about.Descan no. This is the next chord in the exact song you're complaining about.
Relevant. And very well-sung. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heIH9vfwKBM)Speaking of songs, this is amazing. I wish more people would channel their tribal hatred into quality art.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 17, 2016, 07:08:09 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on August 17, 2016, 11:05:36 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on August 18, 2016, 12:03:39 am
Post by: Shadowlord on August 18, 2016, 12:08:31 am
Look at a housefly
A HOUSEFLY!??!
Spoiler: my reaction (click to show/hide)
Post by: Retropunch on August 18, 2016, 12:20:53 pm
I'm not being inflammatory by saying that there would be a backlash if aliens didn't have alternative genders (cue Mass Effect), so it's easier to just give every race that even if there isn't a difference in art/whatever.
@FD - lol at video. Much lol.
Post by: Shadowlord on August 18, 2016, 02:19:08 pm
says a person who has not "dated" Liara in any of the mass effect games
Post by: Persus13 on August 18, 2016, 02:54:53 pm
I'm not being inflammatory by saying that there would be a backlash if aliens didn't have alternative genders (cue Mass Effect), so it's easier to just give every race that even if there isn't a difference in art/whatever.Or maybe the programmers found it easier to have two genders coded in for every race, and not just humans, and then the artists decided they didn't want to have to do twice the work on alien portraits by varying by gender instead of them worrying about some imaginary "backlash"
Post by: JumpingJack on August 18, 2016, 05:06:36 pm
Or maybe the programmers found it easier to have two genders coded in for every race, and not just humans, and then the artists decided they didn't want to have to do twice the work on alien portraits by varying by gender instead of them worrying about some imaginary "backlash"Perhaps, though Paradox has shown themselves to be conscious of sensitive matters before.
Post by: Sirus on August 18, 2016, 06:56:12 pm
Alright, finally got Stellaris working again and I'm checking out the mods. Installed some, ignored others.So this game has been released for a while. What sort of mods do people recommend?I actually built a necessary mod list while we were working on the multiplayer
These are the mods I feel are necessary right now for an interesting, immersive game. I run a plethora of other ones, but I could play without them. I don't really want to play without these ones.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Main question is: no mods to improve sector AI? Combat balance? Planetary invasion? I thought consensus was that those were some of the most lacking things in the current version of the base game.
Post by: Karnewarrior on August 19, 2016, 04:24:15 pm
Beautiful battles handles Combat balance adequately, IIRC. There is a planetary invasion mod, though it doesn't seem to change much of anything as far as I can tell. Possibly, I'm just shit at invading planets.Alright, finally got Stellaris working again and I'm checking out the mods. Installed some, ignored others.So this game has been released for a while. What sort of mods do people recommend?I actually built a necessary mod list while we were working on the multiplayer
These are the mods I feel are necessary right now for an interesting, immersive game. I run a plethora of other ones, but I could play without them. I don't really want to play without these ones.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Main question is: no mods to improve sector AI? Combat balance? Planetary invasion? I thought consensus was that those were some of the most lacking things in the current version of the base game.
Sector AI seems mostly untouched AFAIK. There's an Asimov AI mod, but it was too large to put on the list; like I said, I was developing that list for a multiplayer match and I didn't have 3 hours to wait for everyone's grandmother's dial-up to download the biggest mod since Sid Mier's Beyond Earth. :P
As far as the fox tits goes, I knew I forgot to remove something. It was either Sprin or BFEL who wanted it on that list, so blame them. But it IS immersive, in a sense; the Devs obviously had neither the time nor inclination to dimorphize the aliums, but there's little reason to expect most aliens to be non-dimorphic sexually since most earth creatures ARE dimorphic in some sense.
It's not like humans would likely be able to tell the sex of random aliens anyway? Look at a housefly and tell me if it's male or female.I'm not sure on houseflies, but if you look at a spider and it's larger than usual, it's usually safe to say it's a girl spider. Likewise, cattle with large horns are usually male, and female dogs tend to have softer curves. Just because they aren't extremely dimorphic like humans doesn't mean that most species /aren't/. And if you spend enough time with them, you can usually end up telling them apart with a reasonable degree of success. I imagine that once you fully integrate those space-suit birds into your population, and people start seeing one or two a day, and going to school with the birds, and eating lunch with the birds, eventually it would become reasonable to expect your average human to be able to tell the difference between a male bird in a space-suit and a female bird in a space-suit.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on August 19, 2016, 07:06:19 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on August 19, 2016, 07:13:42 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on August 19, 2016, 08:55:40 pm
I'm completely fine with them having both, they can have as many statement-genders as they want, but the question asked was 'why' they did it, especially when there isn't any difference outside of human.Would there, though? Mass Effect is a pretty popular RPG with rather relevant mechanics to issues of gender and sexuality. Stellaris is a somewhat more niche, uh, space opera 4X trying for immersive sandbox elements, I guess? I'm not sure it knows either. But I doubt they'd get anything substantial, because I don't see a lot of places to latch onto.
I'm not being inflammatory by saying that there would be a backlash if aliens didn't have alternative genders (cue Mass Effect), so it's easier to just give every race that even if there isn't a difference in art/whatever.
Case in point: Mass Effect got on the actual, television news for being a rape simulator or whatever. Stellaris is probably not going to get on the news for being a fascist training simulation. The odds of people bitching about waifus and the equipment thereof is therefore probably way, waaaaaaay higher for the former than the latter.
Finally, even if they were concerned about that, they still would have needed to consider that before artistic concerns or been leaning towards leaving it out for that to be the answer to 'why'. Given that they included a fair variety of aliums and bothered to animate them, neither sounds very likely.
I fear that, if any species out there is likely to start a war because a human hit on them/didn't realize they were female, then war is inevitable.To be fair, you could say that about pretty much anything. I'm not sure that means it's wrong.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on August 20, 2016, 01:00:41 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on August 20, 2016, 04:53:16 pm
Suppose, hypothetically, that you have some intelligent, militaristic, fanatically xenophilic birds living on an arctic world, only to be visited by beings from the stars- charismatic, sociologist, individualist, fanatically xenophilic ocean-dwelling molluscs. These benevolent squid overlords raise their new featherfriends into their own crummy little dominion on their own borders. Eventually this empire actually spreads to a few nearby worlds, migration treaties are approved, and in the end our four-eyed feathery friends control 12 Pops located among three planets.
...eleven of which are chubby molluscs, while a lone, solitary avian bravely mans the capital, a second bird pop growing at the vigorous rate of 0.1 per month. Even their two colonies are pure, 100% overlord stock. The vast majority of the galactic snowbird population dwells on the cooler tentacle worlds, where they migrated about the same time aliens were flocking to their own world.
So the thing that really got me thinking about this, though, is that the bird empire is still primary species leader only. That's some apartheid-level shit on the numbers, everyone likes each other on both a species and empire level, it's the bird's homeland and holdings but they were raised up by the molluscs... I'm not sure what that society looks like, and I'm now really, really curious. Are the birds slightly pissed that everyone else left? Are they thrilled to have so many pet aliens? Do the molluscs care that they can't rule the bird's empire too? Are there royal bird families, or do high-end government jobs have an arbitrary restriction on them? Are there bird hardliners who think it's absolutely vital that birds remain in control of birdland, and if so why? Because it's theirs? Because they have to catch up to their squishy cousins? Because their good soft friends are too figuratively soft to do what must be done?
This has become a weirdly fascinating question for me.
Post by: Teneb on August 20, 2016, 05:33:56 pm
Post by: JumpingJack on August 20, 2016, 10:48:21 pm
Make Birdland Great Again. Clearly.Vote Donald Duck 2216!
Post by: Persus13 on August 21, 2016, 10:33:00 am
Post by: Egan_BW on August 21, 2016, 01:07:06 pm
Post by: Baffler on August 21, 2016, 03:18:35 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 22, 2016, 07:53:50 am
-snip-Sounds actually worse than apartheid numbers, but they're not actually living apart - thus it's not apartheid. Doesn't actually seem to be anything wrong there since all the pops are cool with it, just look at human analogues for example. In the West we have loads of Jewish leaders and are hardly chafing at our conditions, quite the contrary. Or another analogue, that of Muslim rule in India over a far greater majority of Hindus, when the Mughals weren't in their "kill infidels" stage everything was splendid and you'd hardly find anyone taking issue with that either.
I think it would most likely be that the avians would be molluscaboos with political power, but since all the jobs in the avian empire are done by molluscoids, pretty much all the economic power would be held by molluscoids. Any trouble that would arise would be the issue of molluscoids bribing avian leaders in order to gain political influence over their affairs, leading potentially to severe corruption issues. Yet demographically, ethically and culturally, it would otherwise be pretty chill, especially since they all share the same ethos and are determined to treasure one another. Alternatively the squids could start feeling squid guilt and lobby for preferential treatment of avians
I think a more interesting question is whether it's right to liberate pops who live in foreign Empires and are actually happier as slaves than free men. As a democratic crusader I found that answer quite easy, freedom is the only way, freedom isn't free - the price of blood and work is worth the life of freedom. Pops who were unused to having to feed themselves and make their own decisions would learn soon enough. Yet as a hive mind of cockroaches being attacked by democratic crusading xenos, I wondered why they were so keen on liberating our planets when our ant people hated every moment of freedom and would rather destroy their own farms and starve to death than to live under freedom. Dunno.
Also in my stellaris run I found Klaggians, a race of tundra space mammals who looked like humans. They were run by a space oligarchy of merged corporations, and upon contact with the humans of earth, began commercializing and fetishizing the commonwealth of man, resulting in this monstrosity:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Not even god can save us from this grimdark humanaboo future
Speaking of which, I'm thinking how I can post an AAR without cluttering the thread with a series of walls of text. It's quite a lot
Post by: Hanzoku on August 22, 2016, 08:03:41 am
Post by: IronyOwl on August 22, 2016, 05:57:55 pm
You're not gonna believe this, but their home system is named Yump.Make Birdland Great Again. Clearly.Vote Donald Duck 2216!
with the flying birds better qualified leaders due to their ability to fly and move around fasterI reject this vile aerocracy and insist that only aquacracy can bring true peace and prosperity to the stars.
and want to preserve birdland's alien character.Now this I find pretty fascinating. It's like living in a theme park!
Sounds actually worse than apartheid numbers, but they're not actually living apart - thus it's not apartheid. Doesn't actually seem to be anything wrong there since all the pops are cool with it, just look at human analogues for example. In the West we have loads of Jewish leaders and are hardly chafing at our conditions, quite the contrary. Or another analogue, that of Muslim rule in India over a far greater majority of Hindus, when the Mughals weren't in their "kill infidels" stage everything was splendid and you'd hardly find anyone taking issue with that either.Interesting. I like the idea that they're boos for each other.
I think it would most likely be that the avians would be molluscaboos with political power, but since all the jobs in the avian empire are done by molluscoids, pretty much all the economic power would be held by molluscoids. Any trouble that would arise would be the issue of molluscoids bribing avian leaders in order to gain political influence over their affairs, leading potentially to severe corruption issues. Yet demographically, ethically and culturally, it would otherwise be pretty chill, especially since they all share the same ethos and are determined to treasure one another. Alternatively the squids could start feeling squid guilt and lobby for preferential treatment of avians
On that note, the situation has... progressed? There are now 23 molluscs and 0 birds living in birdland, other than a now-frozen pop in growth and enough spares to handle leadership. 19 birds call the various squidworlds home, meanwhile (while 6 more grow? species list says 25, but no known empires have any but mine).
I'm leaning towards mutual booship combined with a sort of royal family vibe, only they presumably actually do things.
I think a more interesting question is whether it's right to liberate pops who live in foreign Empires and are actually happier as slaves than free men. As a democratic crusader I found that answer quite easy, freedom is the only way, freedom isn't free - the price of blood and work is worth the life of freedom. Pops who were unused to having to feed themselves and make their own decisions would learn soon enough. Yet as a hive mind of cockroaches being attacked by democratic crusading xenos, I wondered why they were so keen on liberating our planets when our ant people hated every moment of freedom and would rather destroy their own farms and starve to death than to live under freedom. Dunno.The cool kids were doing it first, so I couldn't resist MULTICULTURALING the last two worlds of the nearby fanatical purifiers (one of which is 5% habitability for them and therefore held onto through pure spite). But I finally understand America's dilemma, looking at all those juicy xenophobic isolationists and evangelizing zealots and such that it'd just be so easy to conquer and puppet into friendly neighborhood federation builders.
For the moment I've taken the more reasonable approach in saying that provided you're not hurting anything too badly, your ethics are your choice and, while they make us sad, we're not going to descend like alien locusts onto your homeworlds to enact our own puppet government because we'd prefer something else. But I can certainly understand the temptation to "fix" others, both from practical and moral standpoints.
Not even god can save us from this grimdark humanaboo futureAmen. This has got to be one of the strangest AARs I've ever seen.
Speaking of which, I'm thinking how I can post an AAR without cluttering the thread with a series of walls of text. It's quite a lotI don't mind it here, especially as the thread's a little on the quiet side otherwise. A Let's Play would be a more formal place to continue Mankind's Bizarre Adventure.
Post by: Cruxador on August 25, 2016, 11:39:43 am
So here's a question for everyone, and I'm not gonna say LW in particular but I am gonna laugh at something.Sounds pretty straightforward to me. It's the bird empire so birds are in charge. It's just the basic ethnicity-based concept of what a nation means, which was popular (probably not coincidentally) in the time period that Paradox traditionally does their best work.
Suppose, hypothetically, that you have some intelligent, militaristic, fanatically xenophilic birds living on an arctic world, only to be visited by beings from the stars- charismatic, sociologist, individualist, fanatically xenophilic ocean-dwelling molluscs. These benevolent squid overlords raise their new featherfriends into their own crummy little dominion on their own borders. Eventually this empire actually spreads to a few nearby worlds, migration treaties are approved, and in the end our four-eyed feathery friends control 12 Pops located among three planets.
...eleven of which are chubby molluscs, while a lone, solitary avian bravely mans the capital, a second bird pop growing at the vigorous rate of 0.1 per month. Even their two colonies are pure, 100% overlord stock. The vast majority of the galactic snowbird population dwells on the cooler tentacle worlds, where they migrated about the same time aliens were flocking to their own world.
So the thing that really got me thinking about this, though, is that the bird empire is still primary species leader only. That's some apartheid-level shit on the numbers, everyone likes each other on both a species and empire level, it's the bird's homeland and holdings but they were raised up by the molluscs... I'm not sure what that society looks like, and I'm now really, really curious. Are the birds slightly pissed that everyone else left? Are they thrilled to have so many pet aliens? Do the molluscs care that they can't rule the bird's empire too? Are there royal bird families, or do high-end government jobs have an arbitrary restriction on them? Are there bird hardliners who think it's absolutely vital that birds remain in control of birdland, and if so why? Because it's theirs? Because they have to catch up to their squishy cousins? Because their good soft friends are too figuratively soft to do what must be done?
This has become a weirdly fascinating question for me.
Post by: Furtuka on August 31, 2016, 10:39:23 pm
Post by: LoSboccacc on September 01, 2016, 05:30:33 am
Post by: IronyOwl on September 01, 2016, 05:37:31 am
midgame isn't developed yet into anything interesting and they already want me to pay?To be fair, it's concurrent with a fair bit of patching.
This is still my general feeling, though. Splitting your time between exciting new DLC and making critical systems not suck abysmally is not my idea of benign content generation.
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 01, 2016, 05:42:31 am
midgame isn't developed yet into anything interesting and they already want me to pay?That's your decision. This is more content for the mid/late game. More content is also coming via free patches to include more events and the other various gameplay changes they're making to smooth out the pacing.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 01, 2016, 09:35:10 am
midgame isn't developed yet into anything interesting and they already want me to pay?
Yeah, I'm giving this a year or two. Or maybe a sequel. It's pretty clear they don't really know what the franchise is supposed to be about yet, given the total reworking of diplomatic relations and fallen empires. Not that it's a bad start; it's just that the way their development process works, there isn't going to be something that's worth playing for a while.
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 01, 2016, 09:59:42 am
Part of that total rework came about due to a change in the creative director of the game, so I'm hoping it is heralding some nice changes ahead. I like a lot of the new guy's ideas and he's obviously really excited about the game.midgame isn't developed yet into anything interesting and they already want me to pay?
Yeah, I'm giving this a year or two. Or maybe a sequel. It's pretty clear they don't really know what the franchise is supposed to be about yet, given the total reworking of diplomatic relations and fallen empires. Not that it's a bad start; it's just that the way their development process works, there isn't going to be something that's worth playing for a while.
Post by: Sirus on September 01, 2016, 12:04:30 pm
The War in Heaven DLC they mentioned in the new Dev Diary sounds super exciting (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-43-the-fallen.965642/)This does sound pretty cool, but only if awakenings remain somewhat rare. No one is going to want Fallen Empires waking up in the fusion stage to curb stomp the galaxy - at least, not in every game.
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 01, 2016, 12:32:53 pm
Actually it might not be a bad thing. When two of them wake up they can make you join their side. You might get to hoover up some advance debris after battles or take some worlds from enemy minor empires.The War in Heaven DLC they mentioned in the new Dev Diary sounds super exciting (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-43-the-fallen.965642/)This does sound pretty cool, but only if awakenings remain somewhat rare. No one is going to want Fallen Empires waking up in the fusion stage to curb stomp the galaxy - at least, not in every game.
Post by: Flying Dice on September 01, 2016, 12:39:06 pm
Post by: umiman on September 01, 2016, 12:41:36 pm
Maybe 4 or 5 more of those kind of content DLC and we'll finally have some meat on these bones.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 01, 2016, 12:49:27 pm
Post by: Retropunch on September 01, 2016, 12:50:41 pm
Automatic exploration will be a big boost, and the combat changes do sound as though they may make a real difference. I'll probably go back to it on the patch after this one, as I imagine by that point it'll have gotten pretty different from the state its in now.
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 01, 2016, 12:54:39 pm
sadly the name "War in Heaven" just reminds me of Banks' Surface Detail, which just makes me think of a bunch of cool ideas that could be in the game, like a victory-by-sublimation for a tech victory conditionThe whole 'technological ascension' victory has never struck me as very interesting from a gameplay mechanic. I've never seen a game do it well. Usually you pour a lot of money into science to unlock some device then you pour a lot of resources into building the device and you 'win'. Does that feel satisfying? It certainly didn't to me in Civ, where you fire off a space ship and hey look you won. I guess. I'm not sure WHY a distant colony with a few hundred people means you've suddenly won on earth though. I've had other games where I am dominating the map militarily and economically but someone finished a special project on the other side of the world so they 'won'.
Post by: Retropunch on September 01, 2016, 01:05:48 pm
The whole 'technological ascension' victory has never struck me as very interesting from a gameplay mechanic. I've never seen a game do it well. Usually you pour a lot of money into science to unlock some device then you pour a lot of resources into building the device and you 'win'. Does that feel satisfying? It certainly didn't to me in Civ, where you fire off a space ship and hey look you won. I guess. I'm not sure WHY a distant colony with a few hundred people means you've suddenly won on earth though. I've had other games where I am dominating the map militarily and economically but someone finished a special project on the other side of the world so they 'won'.
Agreed, I always turn it off in my games as it's always super boring and can just lead to some annoying surprise wins for the AI. It also seems to be pretty much just an economic victory in most cases, but where you press the 'turn economy into science' button instead.
I believe the only way you could do it would be to give a player pursuing it a very different set of rules, or a strong chance for all sorts of disasters/end game events occurring from pursuing it.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 01, 2016, 01:10:23 pm
sadly the name "War in Heaven" just reminds me of Banks' Surface Detail, which just makes me think of a bunch of cool ideas that could be in the game, like a victory-by-sublimation for a tech victory conditionThe whole 'technological ascension' victory has never struck me as very interesting from a gameplay mechanic. I've never seen a game do it well. Usually you pour a lot of money into science to unlock some device then you pour a lot of resources into building the device and you 'win'. Does that feel satisfying? It certainly didn't to me in Civ, where you fire off a space ship and hey look you won. I guess. I'm not sure WHY a distant colony with a few hundred people means you've suddenly won on earth though. I've had other games where I am dominating the map militarily and economically but someone finished a special project on the other side of the world so they 'won'.
I thought it made sense in Civilization because the idea is that you're now on more than one planet, so the scope of the game is "over" - and yeah, it felt pretty fair. I mean, you got plenty of warnings, and many of the variations had some rule like, "once the space ship is launched, you can still lose by losing your capital within X turns." Which leads us to Alpha Centauri, where the Transcendence victory was integral to the plot and did an amazing job of tying up the story themes.
As a gameplay mechanic, it works well enough. It's a game about building an empire, which you then use churn out military units that are mostly identical between equiv-tech civs. The victory typically goes to civ with the materiel advantage anyway, so why not just say, "hey, let's skip the foregone conclusion wars, and just let the most technologically and industrially advanced civ win? so long as they can get by dumping resources into a project that does nothing BUT let you win, they're already ahead anyway."
So long as the various special projects/techs/events/etc that end the game are well-written and consume sufficient resources over a long enough period of time, it'd be a good way to end the game. Instead of the insane end-game slog we have now. And if it followed Banks' sublimation model, the other players could keep playing, but the "winner's" empire would be removed/deprecated/converted to a fallen empire.
Post by: Virtz on September 01, 2016, 01:11:08 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 01, 2016, 01:14:13 pm
It also seems to be pretty much just an economic victory in most cases
Unlike military victories?
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 01, 2016, 01:15:24 pm
So uh, I know this is old news, but is nobody concerned the new combat balance sounds like total nonsense? Like the ships are now being broken up into mumorpeger classes based on size? Like why even have the whole module system then? Can a big battleship seriously not be decked out in hundreds of smaller turrets that could massacre corvettes like a Star Destroyer? Or have torpedoes like the Enterprise? Instead they're now "artillery and carrier ships that provide long-range fire support", like some kinda wizard or necromancer.
It's a really new area for Paradox so it's unsurprising they have no idea what they're doing with it yet. Troop balance in CK2 never made sense either.
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 01, 2016, 01:28:33 pm
As a gameplay mechanic, it works well enough. It's a game about building an empire, which you then use churn out military units that are mostly identical between equiv-tech civs. The victory typically goes to civ with the materiel advantage anyway, so why not just say, "hey, let's skip the foregone conclusion wars, and just let the most technologically and industrially advanced civ win? so long as they can get by dumping resources into a project that does nothing BUT let you win, they're already ahead anyway."Does it really stand up as a game mechanic though? With a military victory you have dozens of decisions and player interaction means a great deal with regards to positioning, terrain, etc. With a science victory it's mostly about maximizing your production/science output and waiting. Sure in Civ you pick what parts to put on your rocket but really that only matters if you're pressed for time because someone else is trying to launch first or you're about to be wiped out. It still felt a bit shallow.
So long as the various special projects/techs/events/etc that end the game are well-written and consume sufficient resources over a long enough period of time, it'd be a good way to end the game. Instead of the insane end-game slog we have now. And if it followed Banks' sublimation model, the other players could keep playing, but the "winner's" empire would be removed/deprecated/converted to a fallen empire.
In most 4x games the tech victory is even less involved. You build buildings x y and z and you win. You might have to defend them for a few turns sure. I'm not arguing that it is easy/hard, just kind of boring.
Post by: Retropunch on September 01, 2016, 01:34:36 pm
As forsaken1111 said, military victory can and often/sometimes does mean more than that. Sure, if you build up a big enough economy to roflstomp everyone else then it's the same, but in a game like Stellaris/CK2 you can end up turning everyone against you and bite off more than you can chew easily enough. There's also a level of tactical maneuvering to do which isn't always easily achieved.It also seems to be pretty much just an economic victory in most cases
Unlike military victories?
So uh, I know this is old news, but is nobody concerned the new combat balance sounds like total nonsense? Like the ships are now being broken up into mumorpeger classes based on size?
It might take a bit/lot of balancing, but I feel it's the right way to go. At the moment I feel its more of a mess, where there's no point in building anything other than one or two different types of ship. Sure, it's RPG'y, but it gives a lot more depth than 'spam most cost effective ship'.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 01, 2016, 01:36:28 pm
Does it really stand up as a game mechanic though? With a military victory you have dozens of decisions and player interaction means a great deal with regards to positioning, terrain, etc.
But those decisions and interactions are often no-brainers. Move units toward cities. Attack things along the way. Stand on the mountains; don't attack into the mountains/hills/whatever if you can. There are some decisions that are quite tricky, but not many. It's mostly a managing a traffic jam of units.
If Civilization combat were more on the level of HoI, I could see it. But at Civ's level of abstraction, it mostly comes down to number of units shoved against one another.
Post by: Shadowlord on September 01, 2016, 01:43:02 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 01, 2016, 01:47:18 pm
I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that you think the tactical and strategic decisions required to plan an execute a war in Civ are less complicated than building factories so you can build a spaceship?Does it really stand up as a game mechanic though? With a military victory you have dozens of decisions and player interaction means a great deal with regards to positioning, terrain, etc.
But those decisions and interactions are often no-brainers. Move units toward cities. Attack things along the way. Stand on the mountains; don't attack into the mountains/hills/whatever if you can. There are some decisions that are quite tricky, but not many. It's mostly a managing a traffic jam of units.
If Civilization combat were more on the level of HoI, I could see it. But at Civ's level of abstraction, it mostly comes down to number of units shoved against one another.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 01, 2016, 01:49:16 pm
I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that you think the tactical and strategic decisions required to plan an execute a war in Civ are less complicated than building factories so you can build a spaceship?Does it really stand up as a game mechanic though? With a military victory you have dozens of decisions and player interaction means a great deal with regards to positioning, terrain, etc.
But those decisions and interactions are often no-brainers. Move units toward cities. Attack things along the way. Stand on the mountains; don't attack into the mountains/hills/whatever if you can. There are some decisions that are quite tricky, but not many. It's mostly a managing a traffic jam of units.
If Civilization combat were more on the level of HoI, I could see it. But at Civ's level of abstraction, it mostly comes down to number of units shoved against one another.
No, I'm saying they're equally uncomplicated.
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 01, 2016, 01:51:48 pm
Post by: Retropunch on September 01, 2016, 02:26:08 pm
No, I'm saying they're equally uncomplicated.
Each to their own, but I disagree - perhaps not in Civ itself (I'm not a big civ player) but in many 4x games I've found the military path quite interesting late game. In one of my recent Stellaris games I over reached, and ended up not being able to get my ships back quickly enough to stop another race smashing through a large portion of my space. In another Endless Space game I ended up just getting hammered in a few unlucky battles which meant that I had to rethink.
For econ/tech endings you can basically just sit and wait till you win in a lot of cases.
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 01, 2016, 02:51:40 pm
yeah. I've been trying to come up with some way to make a science victory condition interesting from a mechanical perspective. So far I have:No, I'm saying they're equally uncomplicated.
Each to their own, but I disagree - perhaps not in Civ itself (I'm not a big civ player) but in many 4x games I've found the military path quite interesting late game. In one of my recent Stellaris games I over reached, and ended up not being able to get my ships back quickly enough to stop another race smashing through a large portion of my space. In another Endless Space game I ended up just getting hammered in a few unlucky battles which meant that I had to rethink.
For econ/tech endings you can basically just sit and wait till you win in a lot of cases.
Societal issues aka "We don't want to upload!" factions breaking out, traditionalist or anti-progress cults springing up causing mass riots and mayhem. Think of a process like Westernizing in EU4, but more focused on factions resisting the unchecked progress of science.
Special projects/sites. You have to test this new transcendence device after all. How? Send monkeys! or whatever. Test phases that require player intervention and interaction, possible wacky or serious outcomes. Maybe sidegrade technologies that come from increased understanding, or deadly nanoplagues from failures. Make it risky. Require these tests to happen under specific conditions, or require specific resources/sites so you have a reason to go take some specific land/planet/system instead of sitting there watching a resource counter climb.
Post by: LoSboccacc on September 01, 2016, 03:03:10 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 01, 2016, 03:09:34 pm
must have many outcomes, some unpredictable, or it'd get stale fast, like the shogun tw civil war eventYep. Like I said, just brainstorming right now. There are undoubtedly other/better ways. The point is to introduce some player choice and agency in the process rather than watching a turn timer tick down.
Post by: Retropunch on September 01, 2016, 04:07:22 pm
yeah. I've been trying to come up with some way to make a science victory condition interesting from a mechanical perspective.
All good ideas - I feel that scientific victories could actually be made very interesting just by making it an almost 50/50 chance of going disastrously wrong. It'd be a bit of a gamble (or desperation move in some cases) and you'd definitely need to risk tackling particular AI players who decided to pursue it.
That, plus factional outbreaks and you'd have a pretty good end game condition!
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 01, 2016, 04:55:01 pm
yeah. I've been trying to come up with some way to make a science victory condition interesting from a mechanical perspective. So far I have:
Societal issues aka "We don't want to upload!" factions breaking out, traditionalist or anti-progress cults springing up causing mass riots and mayhem. Think of a process like Westernizing in EU4, but more focused on factions resisting the unchecked progress of science.
This is pretty much exactly what I was thinking. Others might be increased neighbor aggression/jelly fallen empires ("your desire to ascend offends our religion"), unhappy allies who want you to stick around, uppity vassals ("hey, you're leaving all this stuff behind anyway, can't we just have it now?"), triggering various other crises (like extradimensional invaders), etc.
Post by: Descan on September 01, 2016, 10:58:19 pm
Like maybe once you own a certain fraction of the galaxy, all the other empires just gang up on you. I guess technically that means YOU are the end-game crisis, but that seems kind of fitting. That'd be how you get a conquest victory.
Some sort of diplomatic crisis, like a series of votes to consolidate your federation into a singular state like the Trek Federation, mechanically similar to the EU holy roman empire, with the failure condition being your federation fractions into the constituent parts again. You'd need to have like, everyone or nearly everyone in your federation to count as a victory, and those would be parts of the vote conditions. Diplomatic victory (I actually really want this now.)
A tech victory crisis would have to be techy, and solved via tech. (Since the other crises are solved via their respective style of winning, diplomacy, military, etc) Whether that'd be a nanoplague/grey goo from a failed attempt at true post-scarcity, that you'd have to research the cure and then apply to each affected system, and which would spread through the systems via fleeing survivors. Or possibly the previously Transcended species are a little miffed you're moving in (after all, maybe not all fallen empires stayed around in the Materia, eh?) and you have to somehow disrupt them a la the Sangraal from Stargate, or communicate with them to say "Hey, yo, we just wanna live WITH you, not take anything away!" either way you'd need to research that technology before they wipe you from history. (Obviously it would have to be multiple different techs along the different tech sectors, and each tech unlocked would cause events and different responses from the grey goo/ascended nerds.)
It'd be a simple matter to re-code the current crises to be have a "YOU ARE WINRAR, CONTINUE PLAYING Y/N?" pop up once the crisis is over.
Depending on how they flesh out religion, a religious victory would have to involve spreading your faith by sword or by word across to every planet (every pop?) and eventually there would have to be a proper ending apocalypse/rapture as all good religions have, which you have to.... I'm not sure. Fight? Accept? Merely survive? Maybe instead of a rapture (since that would basically say "Yes the religions in the game are All True" which Paradox seeeems to be kind of skirting?) Maybe a crusade against the remaining heathen civs (who are too stubborn to change and so you need to crusade once the event fires) that you need to convert. Similar to the conquest victory except they have the option to convert to your religion, and similar to the diplomatic victory because you have to cajol and convince people to lend aid to the cause, you probably don't own everything. ... Okay you probably do. This one needs a bit more work.
Post by: Putnam on September 02, 2016, 12:16:15 am
It'd be a simple matter to re-code the current crises to be have a "YOU ARE WINRAR, CONTINUE PLAYING Y/N?" pop up once the crisis is over.
I mean, the current crises are events... which I guess could be reworked to include winning, but that would also require the current victory conditions to be gutted.
NVM, that's a great idea.
Post by: umiman on September 02, 2016, 12:27:17 am
Post by: Sindain on September 02, 2016, 12:31:36 am
I think the victory conditions should be the same as in CK2, EU4, HOI, and DF.
I agree with this statement.
I've always felt the Stellaris is too much 4X and not enough grand strategy.
Post by: JumpingJack on September 02, 2016, 12:48:56 am
-clip everything else clip-Yes. Very much yes. Space pope when?
Depending on how they flesh out religion, a religious victory would have to involve spreading your faith by sword or by word across to every planet (every pop?) and eventually there would have to be a proper ending apocalypse/rapture as all good religions have, which you have to.... I'm not sure. Fight? Accept? Merely survive? Maybe instead of a rapture (since that would basically say "Yes the religions in the game are All True" which Paradox seeeems to be kind of skirting?) Maybe a crusade against the remaining heathen civs (who are too stubborn to change and so you need to crusade once the event fires) that you need to convert. Similar to the conquest victory except they have the option to convert to your religion, and similar to the diplomatic victory because you have to cajol and convince people to lend aid to the cause, you probably don't own everything. ... Okay you probably do. This one needs a bit more work.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 02, 2016, 08:21:40 am
I think the victory conditions should be the same as in CK2, EU4, HOI, and DF.
HOI has had victory conditions before. Different games should have different rules, and they do.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 02, 2016, 08:22:59 am
Depending on how they flesh out religion, a religious victory would have to involve spreading your faith by sword or by word across to every planet (every pop?) and eventually there would have to be a proper ending apocalypse/rapture as all good religions have, which you have to.... I'm not sure. Fight? Accept? Merely survive? Maybe instead of a rapture (since that would basically say "Yes the religions in the game are All True" which Paradox seeeems to be kind of skirting?) Maybe a crusade against the remaining heathen civs (who are too stubborn to change and so you need to crusade once the event fires) that you need to convert. Similar to the conquest victory except they have the option to convert to your religion, and similar to the diplomatic victory because you have to cajol and convince people to lend aid to the cause, you probably don't own everything. ... Okay you probably do. This one needs a bit more work.
There aren't going to be religions in this game, thankfully.
Post by: Retropunch on September 02, 2016, 10:55:55 am
There aren't going to be religions in this game, thankfully.
Why thankfully? I can only see galaxy wide strategic layer as a good thing. I could see it working similarly to how 'culture' works in SoaSE, in that it starts with you and spreads to other empires, giving you bonuses in those areas to which it had spread.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 02, 2016, 11:02:32 am
There aren't going to be religions in this game, thankfully.
Why thankfully? I can only see galaxy wide strategic layer as a good thing. I could see it working similarly to how 'culture' works in SoaSE, in that it starts with you and spreads to other empires, giving you bonuses in those areas to which it had spread.
Because we already have ethics and ethics divergence, which are exactly a galaxy-wide strategic layer that does everything you just described.
And the game is already 100% rubber forhead aliens with no discernible difference from humans. It doesn't need to be MORE that way.
Post by: Retropunch on September 02, 2016, 12:15:01 pm
Because we already have ethics and ethics divergence, which are exactly a galaxy-wide strategic layer that does everything you just described.
And the game is already 100% rubber forhead aliens with no discernible difference from humans. It doesn't need to be MORE that way.
I wouldn't say it does that at all - at the very least I see it as improving on ethics. Currently ethics makes aliens just 'xenophobic' or 'militaristic' - why are they xenophobic? One possibility would be the belief of religious providence. Why are they pacifists? Religious laws. Can those laws be broken under certain conditions? If I join that religion will they turn against me if I break those laws? etc.
CK2 has all sorts of things like HRE and crusades, which you can't really have with just 'spiritualist' or 'xenophobic'. I get what they were trying to do with the abstraction, but it misses a whole layer of interest and reduces aliens to being pretty bland.
Post by: Sirus on September 02, 2016, 12:29:09 pm
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on September 02, 2016, 12:46:24 pm
Suppose they could have it so that religions all have different 'parts', that AI will randomly pick, excluding contradictory ones, so you can't wind up with a super pacifistic religion that allows crusades or something.Probably they could do a crusade under certain conditions when one thinks about it. If for example one does not think of other aliens as 'people' and harming 'people' is the only concern.
There tends to be a reason, justification, or otherwise for certain hypocrisies in various things, even for such.
Post by: Egan_BW on September 02, 2016, 06:25:21 pm
Suppose they could have it so that religions all have different 'parts', that AI will randomly pick, excluding contradictory ones, so you can't wind up with a super pacifistic religion that allows crusades or something.Not allowing religions to contradict themselves is unrealistic.
Post by: JumpingJack on September 02, 2016, 08:58:17 pm
I'd love to see an expanded version of CiV's Gods And Kings expansion brought to Stellaris. Being able to actually build your religion from the ground up, rather than picking between Space Christianity and Space Buddhism, would be pretty sweet and allow for plenty of difference between different spiritualist Empires. Plus, this would open the door for spin-off sects to emerge and you'd be able to decide what to do about them.My thoughts exactly. Then at least that random event with the cultists could be more involved and dynamic. For instance: the prevailing religion in a player's empire could be a death cult, and the "cultists" that you have to hunt down are actually pacifists.
Not allowing religions to contradict themselves is unrealistic.Religionists, rather. :P
Post by: Shadowlord on September 02, 2016, 09:02:11 pm
Post by: Descan on September 02, 2016, 09:13:41 pm
damn cans of worms
Post by: Cruxador on September 03, 2016, 12:02:06 am
I believe the only way you could do it would be to give a player pursuing it a very different set of rules, or a strong chance for all sorts of disasters/end game events occurring from pursuing it.That actually sounds a lot like the quest victory in Fallen Enchantress. For more complicated stuff, I like that Galactic Civilizations (at least 2, I haven't extensively played 3) actually had ascension function in a sort of "king of the hill" manner: You seized and controlled specific points and built bases around them to harvest their divinity (or something). It didn't make a lot of conceptual sense, but the gameplay mechanic worked fine. Now, in Stellaris this could actually work better, because divinity and religion and psionics all go together, and there's also a trait system. So you could get a holy special resource somewhere, and not only would it be a ticker to victory (as in GalCiv2) but it might lead to new psionic traits for your pops or empire, making ascension something that's valuable even if not pursued all the way to its conclusion. There could even be a balance: Spend the ascension resource to make your pops godly, using an addition to the UI for genetic modification, or save it all up for when you unlock ascension, and bring your whole empire beyond the need for physical form all at once.
Regarding AI, they could take only the non-slave pops from their founding race (or races eligible for leadership positions, to support more egalitarian empires) and the others get left behind. Then just set some events to make the remnants of the empire collapse into warring factions (new empires, each one at war with each other and with custom war goals as necessary) and you've got a major political event that keeps the game interesting and fun.yeah. I've been trying to come up with some way to make a science victory condition interesting from a mechanical perspective.
All good ideas - I feel that scientific victories could actually be made very interesting just by making it an almost 50/50 chance of going disastrously wrong. It'd be a bit of a gamble (or desperation move in some cases) and you'd definitely need to risk tackling particular AI players who decided to pursue it.
That, plus factional outbreaks and you'd have a pretty good end game condition!
Post by: Furtuka on September 06, 2016, 11:09:32 am
New Dev Diary about reworking space creatures to be less out of nowhere.
Post by: Cruxador on September 06, 2016, 12:02:39 pm
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-44-space-creature-rework.967310/They don't mention this, but more important than being out of nowhere, I think it's important that this staggers the content. So you won't be overwhelmed by finding almost all of the creatures at once, and then nothing after the early game, but as you expand and explore you'll find more monsters over time.
New Dev Diary about reworking space creatures to be less out of nowhere.
Post by: Retropunch on September 06, 2016, 12:06:16 pm
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-44-space-creature-rework.967310/They don't mention this, but more important than being out of nowhere, I think it's important that this staggers the content. So you won't be overwhelmed by finding almost all of the creatures at once, and then nothing after the early game, but as you expand and explore you'll find more monsters over time.
New Dev Diary about reworking space creatures to be less out of nowhere.
Yeah I was very, very pleased with this dev blog. It's exactly the kind of changes that I was hoping for, and they seem to really have a good handle on where it needs to go.
More than that, it gives a lot of scope for fleshing out the middle game - especially if you don't have any wars you want to fight. Whilst I sorta wish they'd tackle some of the bigger issues (diplomacy, being able to be a 'peaceful' faction, trade, etc.) I think they're really pushing it in the right direction.
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 06, 2016, 12:19:50 pm
Post by: Cruxador on September 06, 2016, 12:22:46 pm
Some of the bigger stuff is likely to come along with bigger DLC. That said, being at peace isn't something most Paradox games excel at.https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-44-space-creature-rework.967310/They don't mention this, but more important than being out of nowhere, I think it's important that this staggers the content. So you won't be overwhelmed by finding almost all of the creatures at once, and then nothing after the early game, but as you expand and explore you'll find more monsters over time.
New Dev Diary about reworking space creatures to be less out of nowhere.
Yeah I was very, very pleased with this dev blog. It's exactly the kind of changes that I was hoping for, and they seem to really have a good handle on where it needs to go.
More than that, it gives a lot of scope for fleshing out the middle game - especially if you don't have any wars you want to fight. Whilst I sorta wish they'd tackle some of the bigger issues (diplomacy, being able to be a 'peaceful' faction, trade, etc.) I think they're really pushing it in the right direction.
That is very good news. The rewards from space critters (aside from the crystal armor stuff) were by and large useless.Also the evasion-boosting flagella. But I think they were appropriate to the trivial nature of acquiring them.
Post by: IronyOwl on September 06, 2016, 02:44:23 pm
Quote
*irritated sigh*QuoteTo clarify: Is it intended/planned for there to be a proper trade system at some point down the road? I ask because at the moment there's nothing to organically tie the empires together, or to each other, and it's something an otherwise great game glaringly lacks.Not for Heinlein, but entirely possible in the future, yes (that is not a promise though).
Post by: Retropunch on September 07, 2016, 11:43:10 am
Quote*irritated sigh*QuoteTo clarify: Is it intended/planned for there to be a proper trade system at some point down the road? I ask because at the moment there's nothing to organically tie the empires together, or to each other, and it's something an otherwise great game glaringly lacks.Not for Heinlein, but entirely possible in the future, yes (that is not a promise though).
Agreed, it's one of the only ways to really be able to do the 'pacifist' route. That + espionage can lead to some very interesting play without actually having to go to war.
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 07, 2016, 11:56:00 am
Post by: Teneb on September 07, 2016, 03:25:40 pm
I suspect they're saving it for an expansion, much like SOTS did where they introduced a trade system as an expansion feature and added a hell of a lot of depth to itKnowing Paradox's model, the trading itself will probably be free, but the more detailed parts of it inside the paid part.
Has the AI been really unwilling to ally or confederate with any of you? In my current game, they refuse even if they love me. I've taken to pouncing any empire slightly weaker than mine and vassalizing them, integrating them later (my poor influence, though).
Also, what determines the "relative power of subjects" modifier? All my vassals have it in the -500s or so.
As an aside note, I think I've just seen a fallen empire go to town on a non-player empire who got a bit too enthusiastic about AIs.
Post by: Retropunch on September 07, 2016, 03:52:35 pm
I suspect they're saving it for an expansion, much like SOTS did where they introduced a trade system as an expansion feature and added a hell of a lot of depth to itKnowing Paradox's model, the trading itself will probably be free, but the more detailed parts of it inside the paid part.
Has the AI been really unwilling to ally or confederate with any of you? In my current game, they refuse even if they love me. I've taken to pouncing any empire slightly weaker than mine and vassalizing them, integrating them later (my poor influence, though).
Also, what determines the "relative power of subjects" modifier? All my vassals have it in the -500s or so.
As an aside note, I think I've just seen a fallen empire go to town on a non-player empire who got a bit too enthusiastic about AIs.
Yeah I've had loads of times when the AI won't ally with me - I feel they put in some sort of artificial block so that you can't immediately roflstomp people in a huge alliance.
The relative power of subjects is where they're much weaker either in fleet, army or technology. If you scroll over them in one of the views you can see how they compare 'your fleet is superior in comparison' - I just tend to ignore it as anyone that I've vassalised will obviously be weaker.
Post by: Teneb on September 07, 2016, 03:59:18 pm
Post by: Retropunch on September 07, 2016, 04:06:10 pm
I'm wondering why it is a negative modifier, though. You'd think a weak subject would want to keep in line, while a strong one would not.
I think it's sort of trying to emulate being someones equal or their slave. I've always thought it was a bit strange though. I feel as though it should be negative if they're stronger than you, but everything else should be either positive or neutral.
Post by: Baffler on September 07, 2016, 04:13:37 pm
Post by: x2yzh9 on September 07, 2016, 04:46:47 pm
Post by: Teneb on September 07, 2016, 05:37:11 pm
I wish I could get figure out a way to make more influence, though. My scientists die all the damn time at exactly 84 years of age.
Only two non-fallen empires are nearly equal to me, and they not only border each other, but also hate each other despite having the same ethos. (They're both evangelizing zealots, which explains it). Tachyon lances are also being researched, so I think only the Fallen Empire or end-game threats could really hurt me.
Some factions are getting uppity, but I think I'll just let them rebel and beat them down.
Post by: ollobrains on September 07, 2016, 05:42:27 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 07, 2016, 05:47:28 pm
Post by: Sirus on September 07, 2016, 07:09:44 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 07, 2016, 07:14:28 pm
Depends on what you consider "starting", I guess. Once found a pre-FTL civilization with a space station over its homeworld. It had a power of 6.I meant wars between empires.
Post by: Karnewarrior on September 07, 2016, 07:35:55 pm
The thing that really stops early war is that the starting spaceports are almost unassailable with low tech fleets. Even so I've managed to pull it off a few times, but its quite costlyIt's worth noting that strength in numbers comes into play a bit when dealing with space stations; they may deal massive damage, but they don't fire half as often, and can only deal at a maximum as much damage as one ship has HP.
Having about 10 corvettes will usually hit a space station pretty hard. Much more than that and they go down. it's a brutal battle, but it's definitely winnable without cheesing or breaking RP.
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 08, 2016, 10:34:52 am
I'm wondering why it is a negative modifier, though. You'd think a weak subject would want to keep in line, while a strong one would not.It would make sense if the modifier was applied based off of pop ethos
So fanatic militiarists for example would only respect their overlord so long as they had a superior strength, whilst adding xenophobic to their roster would make them chafe for independence against any weak overlord not of their species, stacking with opinion maluses from opposite ethos alignment
The inverse would then be true for pacifists who only respect an overlord actually capable of fighting their wars for them, whilst with xenophilic I think it would be cool upon the addition of better federation mechanics for xenophilic vassals to attempt to gain equal standing in their overlord's federation if their overlord joins one.
Post by: Teneb on September 08, 2016, 04:22:37 pm
EDIT: Nevermind, it eventually popped up on the map.
Post by: IronyOwl on September 08, 2016, 09:00:29 pm
I feel like this conversation could be a lot shorter (or at least more interestingly lengthy) if your relationship with your vassals could be expressed in any way but relative ethos and fleet size. A pacifist empire could like you a ton as a personal or galactic protector, have mixed feelings about you in various ways, or hate your guts as a bloodthirsty tyrant depending on circumstance, for example. But since we don't really have any circumstance, we're stuck debating the same simple factors every other social calculation uses, which is not terribly immersive or useful.I'm wondering why it is a negative modifier, though. You'd think a weak subject would want to keep in line, while a strong one would not.It would make sense if the modifier was applied based off of pop ethos
So fanatic militiarists for example would only respect their overlord so long as they had a superior strength, whilst adding xenophobic to their roster would make them chafe for independence against any weak overlord not of their species, stacking with opinion maluses from opposite ethos alignment
The inverse would then be true for pacifists who only respect an overlord actually capable of fighting their wars for them, whilst with xenophilic I think it would be cool upon the addition of better federation mechanics for xenophilic vassals to attempt to gain equal standing in their overlord's federation if their overlord joins one.
Post by: Cruxador on September 09, 2016, 02:43:57 pm
I bet there'll be a DLC about it.I feel like this conversation could be a lot shorter (or at least more interestingly lengthy) if your relationship with your vassals could be expressed in any way but relative ethos and fleet size. A pacifist empire could like you a ton as a personal or galactic protector, have mixed feelings about you in various ways, or hate your guts as a bloodthirsty tyrant depending on circumstance, for example. But since we don't really have any circumstance, we're stuck debating the same simple factors every other social calculation uses, which is not terribly immersive or useful.I'm wondering why it is a negative modifier, though. You'd think a weak subject would want to keep in line, while a strong one would not.It would make sense if the modifier was applied based off of pop ethos
So fanatic militiarists for example would only respect their overlord so long as they had a superior strength, whilst adding xenophobic to their roster would make them chafe for independence against any weak overlord not of their species, stacking with opinion maluses from opposite ethos alignment
The inverse would then be true for pacifists who only respect an overlord actually capable of fighting their wars for them, whilst with xenophilic I think it would be cool upon the addition of better federation mechanics for xenophilic vassals to attempt to gain equal standing in their overlord's federation if their overlord joins one.
Post by: Teneb on September 15, 2016, 05:02:24 pm
But the first DLC, Leviathans, has been announced. (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-leviathans-announced.969055/)
Post by: Retropunch on September 15, 2016, 05:27:38 pm
Before I get the reason I made this post out of the way, there's been a dev diary about ship balancing. (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-45-ship-balance.968500/)
But the first DLC, Leviathans, has been announced. (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-leviathans-announced.969055/)
Seems like such a strange first DLC. It sort of worries me, as there are loads (LOADS) of things that could do with expanding on and improving on rather than them putting time into that - and I have to wonder why they decided to do this first.
Being optomistic, I'm hoping that they've decided to do this as a DLC because it doesn't effect non-DLC players much, but the more cynical side thinks they may have backed themselves into a development corner and can't make the big changes needed so will instead just pump out loads of 'story' DLC.
Post by: Putnam on September 15, 2016, 05:32:28 pm
Basically: still a business, yo. Can't go off on a Toady-esque tangent adding molar mass to everything without some reason that isn't simply "because the game should have it".
Post by: Teneb on September 15, 2016, 05:42:49 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on September 15, 2016, 07:56:16 pm
But the first DLC, Leviathans, has been announced. (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-leviathans-announced.969055/)
Reapers when?
Post by: Neonivek on September 16, 2016, 02:02:43 am
But the first DLC, Leviathans, has been announced. (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-leviathans-announced.969055/)
Reapers when?
My feelings with this is...
!!!SNORE!!!
Post by: Retropunch on September 16, 2016, 02:12:04 am
They've said outright why they're making that DLC: they wanted to include those features in the free patch, but those parts in particular would require too many developer resources (time etc.), so if they wanted to make that stuff it'd have to be DLC.
Basically: still a business, yo. Can't go off on a Toady-esque tangent adding molar mass to everything without some reason that isn't simply "because the game should have it".
It's less about why they made it a DLC, but more why they thought this stuff was important to put dev resources to now. There's tons and tons of things that are vastly more important (in a quite objective way) and they decided to go after something that I didn't hear one person clamoring or asking for.
It's not like it's a big problem, just seems as though it might be a portent of things to come.
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 16, 2016, 07:07:16 am
Post by: Cruxador on September 17, 2016, 12:05:50 pm
As a reminder, here's a copy and pasted list of the stuff done in this dev cycle which you get for free:
- Awakened Fallen Empires
- Fallen Empire quests, tasks and general improvements
- Fleet Roles and new XL weapons
- Weapon Balance rework
- Strategic Resource rework
- Auto-Exploration
- Rally Points
- Expansion Planner
- Habitability system rework
- Better control over sectors
- Federation/Alliance rework and Federation Association Status
- Space Creature rework, including new art and encounters
- Major sound and graphics improvements
- Loads of bug fixes, AI improvements and UI improvements
It sees to me that most of the dev time on the DLC is just artist dev time, which isn't really useful to address mechanics and major gameplay features, but is excellent for exactly this kind of thing - adding color to areas that lack it. This, coupled with the mechanic and balance overhauls, seems to me like exactly where they should be spending dev time.
Post by: Malus on September 18, 2016, 04:28:11 am
I'm not really getting the dev time complaints.A lot of people don't seem to draw a distinction between programmer man-hours, artist man-hours, and writer man-hours. These are usually the same people that complain about face DLCs for CK2. Like when people complained about the Plantoid pack because how dare they work on cosmetic DLC when the base game needs improvement!! you've gotta just roll your eyes.
Post by: Retropunch on September 18, 2016, 06:31:25 am
I'm not really getting the dev time complaints.A lot of people don't seem to draw a distinction between programmer man-hours, artist man-hours, and writer man-hours. These are usually the same people that complain about face DLCs for CK2. Like when people complained about the Plantoid pack because how dare they work on cosmetic DLC when the base game needs improvement!! you've gotta just roll your eyes.
Agreed to a point, but even a cosmetic pack still requires work from programmers/other parts of the business. Not that it slows down other work inordinately, so it shouldn't matter that much. I think the main reason why people are a bit jaded with that kinda thing is the whole 'horse armour' syndrome, especially when it's used to cover up a lack of other progress.
After reading everyone's comments I've changed my mind on the new DLC - I can definitely see why they've done it once it's been put in the light of 'middle game stuff'. My main fear is that we continue to get more 'middle game stuff' without them getting to the bits we really need (espionage, trade, deeper characters etc.). We can live in hopes though.
Post by: Cruxador on September 18, 2016, 12:43:24 pm
Agreed to a point, but even a cosmetic pack still requires work from programmers/other parts of the business.It wouldn't surprise me if the programming work on Plantoids was literally zero. That was just adding one more bunch of things to a category already set up for bunches of things.
Quote
After reading everyone's comments I've changed my mind on the new DLC - I can definitely see why they've done it once it's been put in the light of 'middle game stuff'. My main fear is that we continue to get more 'middle game stuff' without them getting to the bits we really need (espionage, trade, deeper characters etc.). We can live in hopes though.I don't see much foundation for that fear. DLC on their previous games has been pretty diverse in the areas of gameplay that it covers. Trade is specifically called out as something the new design head wants to do. Espionage and deeper characters seem like pretty obvious areas for them to expand as well. And the next update is named for Iain Banks, suggesting that it could pertain both to end-game content, but also to internal politics, which would include characters, sectors, and factions. All of them, probably not coincidentally, things that people want to see some manner of rework to.
Post by: PTTG?? on September 18, 2016, 01:52:23 pm
Wait for it to turn 16 and metamorphose into the bald, fat strong attractive genius it's hiding.
Er，in this case, the genetics is Paradox's DLC strategy.
Post by: Furtuka on September 19, 2016, 01:08:34 pm
New Dev Diary, has a bit of explanation over what's in Leviathan and what's in the free update and why that it at the beginning. Main portion is a overview of the Enclaves being added in Leviathan.
Post by: Teneb on September 22, 2016, 04:12:05 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on September 22, 2016, 04:27:11 pm
No clue about the Superproject though. I've never actually had the event trigger for me.
Post by: Ultimuh on October 13, 2016, 08:16:02 pm
Anyone up for a galactic purge?
Post by: Persus13 on October 13, 2016, 08:28:13 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on October 13, 2016, 08:43:47 pm
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-47-guardians.971531/ (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-47-guardians.971531/)
DLC contains a dragon, borg sphere, and star spider as bosses/quest targets.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-48-roar-boom.972614/ (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-48-roar-boom.972614/)
The game now sounds prettier.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-49-graphics-portraits.974104/ (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-49-graphics-portraits.974104/)
Everything needs more bloom, there's a subcategory of mammals for a handful of Star Trek style aliens, and the DLC features a handful of adorable races to eat and/or bring darkness to the galaxy with.
Finally, patch and DLC (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-leviathans-awaken-on-october-20th-along-with-free-heinlein-patch.973250/) arrive Oct. 20th, with the DLC costing $10 or equivalent. My understanding is that saves will not be compatible.
Post by: Cruxador on October 13, 2016, 10:49:33 pm
Looks like we will be having Space (https://i.imgur.com/eCiuERB.png) Elves (https://i.imgur.com/VVF9f44.png) when the new patch/update (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-49-graphics-portraits.974104/) releases.Kinda like the space elf mod that already exists better, since it has a ton of clothing options that are contextually employed.
Anyone up for a galactic purge?
Post by: Egan_BW on October 15, 2016, 05:13:20 am
And, I mean, the male only only looks different because of the ears.
Klingons are cool though.
Post by: Wiles on October 15, 2016, 06:43:27 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 15, 2016, 07:41:16 am
Post by: Wiles on October 15, 2016, 08:46:22 am
Post by: Descan on October 15, 2016, 01:04:04 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on October 15, 2016, 03:25:06 pm
As for their classification, Romulans still have some forehead work, and they don't feel severe enough to look Vulcan. Or serene enough? I'll second the idle cannibal hunger in their eyes.
Post by: Cruxador on October 16, 2016, 01:05:20 am
The female space elf looks indistinguishable from a space human. :/There are males?
And, I mean, the male only only looks different because of the ears.
Post by: ollobrains on October 16, 2016, 05:01:16 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 16, 2016, 08:41:38 am
so 20th of october at 9.99 or local equiv price, its better value than the EU4 DLCBetter value than the 7.99 plant picture pack too.
Post by: umiman on October 16, 2016, 01:13:55 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 16, 2016, 02:33:16 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on October 16, 2016, 03:02:36 pm
Four years and $200 later you have the complete game, which has maybe one or two major differences from the last one in the series.
Post by: PTTG?? on October 16, 2016, 03:34:08 pm
Post by: Culise on October 16, 2016, 04:22:21 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on October 16, 2016, 04:37:58 pm
I wouldn't say that. Stellaris was particularly under-featured on launch, but look at CKII; at least half of each DLC has been provided as a free patch, and the major DLC is both worth the price and frequently on sale. It's actually a quite reasonable way to fund continuing development for years.It would be if they didn't do shit like they did with EU4 and include mandatory free "upgrades" that made the game more of a pain in the ass if you didn't buy the DLC.
Yes, I am still tremendously salty about the whole "lol you're using the development system now but you can't actually develop unless you fork over the cash".
Especially when they also have events that completely fuck over provincial development.
Maybe I have an inflated perception of how bullshit the practice is because my Yamato campaign was royally fucked since the famine(?) event came up like twenty times a year for close to a century and every single one of my provinces was driven into the gutter since I couldn't develop them back up.
That, and charging game-tier prices for DLC that adds basically nothing of worth. CKII is yet again something of an exception in that regard. I play EUIV so I'm more in the mindset of "half the DLC is bait".
Post by: ollobrains on October 17, 2016, 02:25:42 am
Post by: Neonivek on October 17, 2016, 04:15:13 am
the stellaris dlc so far seems reasonable, eu4 isnt , ck2 is.
Do we really have to bring in the bad CK2 DLC? :P
Post by: Ultimuh on October 17, 2016, 04:31:43 am
Post by: kilakan on October 17, 2016, 08:02:48 am
Post by: Shadowlord on October 17, 2016, 11:53:24 am
You can always just stop throwing money at them if you don't approve. It's not like Stellaris is a particularly fun game. MoO II is still more fun, and the AI is moronic in that.
Post by: Cruxador on October 17, 2016, 12:17:08 pm
I'm mostly just disgusted with the practice of "We know the base game is really under-featured and missing middle game content... here's content to fix that BUT you have to give us more money."They're adding a whole ton of middle game mechanics for free, though. The existing non-leviathan space creatures are getting spread out so they're not front-loaded encounters, Fallen Empires are getting new mechanics so that they're actually relevant instead of just taking up space, and combat is getting overhauled to hopefully be more fun as well. There's more stuff coming in the free patch which should address the fundamental flaw, there's just more stuff coming in the DLC as well.
Post by: Sirus on October 17, 2016, 04:37:43 pm
unless it's much too late (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a0KidUGjXw) for that.I expected this, to be honest. (https://youtu.be/02QjLszgz5k?t=1m34s)
Post by: Ultimuh on October 17, 2016, 04:39:47 pm
much too late (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a0KidUGjXw)
"
This video is not available.
Sorry about that.
"
:-\
Post by: Shadowlord on October 17, 2016, 04:45:46 pm
much too late (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a0KidUGjXw)
"
This video is not available.
Sorry about that.
"
:-\
Oh! It's Foreigner - Too Late.
Post by: Wiles on October 20, 2016, 08:07:42 am
Post by: Ultimuh on October 20, 2016, 08:54:19 am
Leviathans and Heinlein are out :)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag50ct3EBxQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag50ct3EBxQ)
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on October 20, 2016, 10:41:15 am
Post by: Johuotar on October 20, 2016, 11:15:06 am
Leviathans and Heinlein are out :)Yay, time to get back into stellaris!
Post by: Furtuka on October 20, 2016, 12:18:49 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on October 20, 2016, 12:45:35 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on October 20, 2016, 01:48:43 pm
Post by: Iceblaster on October 20, 2016, 02:20:58 pm
Post by: Digital Hellhound on October 20, 2016, 02:23:21 pm
...maybe it's just banks. Space banks. Enjoy the loans mechanic you know and hate from EUIV, now in space!
Post by: umiman on October 20, 2016, 02:24:28 pm
I'm still waiting for my mythical Amazon sale, where just like CK2 I could get the base game and all the DLC up to Sons of Abraham for only $9. Man, those were the days, when Paradox didn't really know how sale pricing worked so they just reduced the prices of their everything to almost nonexistent levels.
Post by: Retropunch on October 20, 2016, 03:05:41 pm
I'd also like to see a bit more modelling of the spread of cultures too. Even the SoaSE 'culture lines' were pretty good.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on October 20, 2016, 03:39:31 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on October 20, 2016, 06:03:17 pm
Post by: Cruxador on October 20, 2016, 07:37:05 pm
TBH I just want a Culture ship name theme.MODS
Post by: Sirus on October 20, 2016, 07:41:11 pm
Post by: clone95 on October 20, 2016, 10:29:20 pm
TBH I just want a Culture ship name theme.
There's already one on the workshop.
Post by: Flying Dice on October 21, 2016, 09:11:50 am
Post by: Retropunch on October 21, 2016, 09:19:44 am
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on October 21, 2016, 10:28:08 am
Anyone played it yet? Is it worthwhile?I played it for a good six hours, I say it's worthwhile, it actually feels like a complete game once you get passed the early game.
Post by: Drakale on October 21, 2016, 10:57:12 am
Post by: Retropunch on October 21, 2016, 10:59:41 am
Post by: Cruxador on October 21, 2016, 02:30:48 pm
I started a game but got boxed in by a neighbor that apparently had a bigger army, faster expansion and more technology than me... Not sure what happened either he had a leg up at the start or some king of lucky break on his home system allowing for that. I'll start a new game soon and hopefully get to midgame.This happened to me as well. I wonder, did the AI get better or did I get worse?
Post by: Shadowlord on October 21, 2016, 02:39:10 pm
Firaxis has always loved giving the computer players cheats, to try to cover for their really shitty AI. In Civ IV, it was so bad that they didn't ever consider the budget or treasury when recruiting units, generally didn't build monetary improvements, and instead relied on their cheats to lower their costs so they could remain competitive. I cite IV because I never tried to see what horrifying things they were doing in Civ V.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on October 21, 2016, 03:14:39 pm
I started a game but got boxed in by a neighbor that apparently had a bigger army, faster expansion and more technology than me... Not sure what happened either he had a leg up at the start or some king of lucky break on his home system allowing for that. I'll start a new game soon and hopefully get to midgame.This happened to me as well. I wonder, did the AI get better or did I get worse?
it's the "a leg up at the start" one: http://www.stellariswiki.com/Settings#AI_empires
Post by: Neonivek on October 21, 2016, 03:31:56 pm
I cite IV because I never tried to see what horrifying things they were doing in Civ V.
In V they don't even build units they buy them :P
Post by: Drakale on October 21, 2016, 06:04:38 pm
I started a game but got boxed in by a neighbor that apparently had a bigger army, faster expansion and more technology than me... Not sure what happened either he had a leg up at the start or some king of lucky break on his home system allowing for that. I'll start a new game soon and hopefully get to midgame.This happened to me as well. I wonder, did the AI get better or did I get worse?
it's the "a leg up at the start" one: http://www.stellariswiki.com/Settings#AI_empires
Oh, the advanced AI thing would explain that, I'll leave them out in my new game.
At the very least they should try to make them spawn far from players, it makes for a very poor start, he literally had his border touching my homeworld before my first colony ship and I was kinda rushing it.
Edit: It's actually an option at game creation to allow advanced AI to spawn near player, missed that the first time around. Should be off by default imo.
Post by: Iceblaster on October 21, 2016, 06:09:39 pm
This is pretty good feeling with the Pre-FTL players mod. (http://i.imgur.com/ELPpQzd.png)
Which, as its name suggests, leaves you without FTL for a bit. Until you research them. This colony ship took about three years to actually get here. Long jump wind up and wind down means it's a bit hard to snipe things. On the upside, multiple science vessels now makes sense in my opinion :P
I've only ever used one for the most part. Two if I have a free scientist :P
Post by: Sirus on October 21, 2016, 06:40:08 pm
Post by: Iceblaster on October 21, 2016, 06:45:19 pm
Post by: Iceblaster on October 22, 2016, 06:24:32 pm
In other words, Alternate Universe Tchaaskerans might be Bajor'd :c (http://i.imgur.com/iU4RWdP.png)
Post by: IronyOwl on October 22, 2016, 07:04:29 pm
You don't get enough leaders for more than one science vessel in most cases. It sucks. You'd think that regular science vessels would be capable of scanning for resources on their own, while scientists would be needed for anomalies and contributing to research.Are governors that mandatory? I haven't been using them much because I assumed they took forever to level unless their colony is freshly building everything, and their low-level benefits feel pretty minor.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on October 22, 2016, 07:27:48 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on October 22, 2016, 07:53:41 pm
Current game, I'm one of the 3 leading space empires, and I effectively am preventing the equivalent of space europe from imploding--warfare just seems so hit and miss I'm afraid to ignite the other empires... unfortunately my archrival invades empires on the other side of the galaxy with impunity. I'm not really sure what to do. Suggestions?
Also, ship design seems to so tedious... When does it become beneficial to design the ships personally???
Post by: Flying Dice on October 22, 2016, 08:22:47 pm
If you don't like ship design in and of itself, nothing it going to make you like it.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on October 22, 2016, 08:28:34 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on October 22, 2016, 08:37:38 pm
Post by: Teneb on October 22, 2016, 08:50:29 pm
Post by: Wolock on October 23, 2016, 04:39:17 am
Post by: majikero on October 23, 2016, 07:07:54 am
You can technically buy off your foes by giving them a few energy monthly to build up trust and cause them to not hate your guts for existing.
Post by: Jacob/Lee on October 23, 2016, 08:13:30 am
You don't get enough leaders for more than one science vessel in most cases. It sucks. You'd think that regular science vessels would be capable of scanning for resources on their own, while scientists would be needed for anomalies and contributing to research.Are governors that mandatory? I haven't been using them much because I assumed they took forever to level unless their colony is freshly building everything, and their low-level benefits feel pretty minor.
Governors are more important for sectors it seems--which in turn are extremely important for the development of your empire.Strangely, my sector governors don't seem keen on building that much, even though I gave them thousands upon thousands of minerals and credits and set them to focus on research or whatever. They just sit on the pile like a grand throne of imperialism and blow spit bubbles. I looked up the issue, but all the reports of idle sectors are from the earlier half of this year.
The AI in general is starting to cycle between incredibly dumb+passive and unstoppable, mostly based on difficulty settings. Normal difficulty is a cakewalk but hard makes almost every AI hyper-expand, way faster than I can ever manage, and start trying to vassalize me/cede my planets. Even then, they declare war on me and then stay in orbit of their own planets until I send my own ships into their space - then they'll try to repel, at least. Everything in this new patch is almost unreal.
E: Sector governors seem to be using their minerals after all, but it's ~30 minerals a month in a sector with five poorly-developed planets and a surplus of resources.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on October 23, 2016, 10:17:31 am
Post by: Jacob/Lee on October 23, 2016, 10:41:00 am
Post by: PTTG?? on October 23, 2016, 11:33:46 am
>Governor AI is removed. Sectors remain.
>Buildings and structures can be scheduled without expending resources.
>Sectors draw from their private resource banks to complete schedules, pausing construction if needed.
>Buildings auto-upgrade using sector resources.
Now you can design the entire planet's eventual destiny as soon as it's colonized and you don't need to come back except to make significant changes.
Or, Paradox could design decent AI, but let's be serious here.
Post by: Shadowlord on October 23, 2016, 12:33:14 pm
I made a game with all the Human faction of Alpha Centauri, myself playing as the Morganites (Pacifist, Materialist, Individualist, Plutocratic Oligarchy government and Thrifty trait). I'm still at the strat of the game and I've already lost 2 science ship and I didn't make contact with anyone... On the plus side, one of the colonizable planet near my homeworld has 3 Betharian Stone tiles. With a power hub plus my 30% energy bonus (5 from Ind., 5 from Gov., 15 from Thirty and 5 from an event) it'll be insane when the power plants go online. It's just too bad that not enough energy is rarely a problem and that I can't throw my credits at the enemy to buy their troops.
You made all the factions? Ooh. What traits and governments and so forth did you use for them all?
Post by: PTTG?? on October 23, 2016, 04:23:22 pm
Please do share your empire configs, I want to see how you built the civs.
Post by: Iceblaster on October 23, 2016, 06:23:11 pm
I only really keep a civ is if I can write a short backstory for them. Most of the time, I can't seem to do that. Is there a way to randomize the creation screen without starting as a random race? Because having a random base to work on would be nice.
Post by: Karnewarrior on October 23, 2016, 06:29:09 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on October 23, 2016, 06:42:56 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on October 23, 2016, 06:49:17 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on October 23, 2016, 08:15:06 pm
Chapter I: Beginnings and the Futexom Incident.
The Mountbattens came to power on Earth shortly after a Golden Age of science, leading Humanity in to the stars and forming the Terran Imperial Directorate. Needless to say, for many years the esteemed Imperator-Director led the Humans to Empire. After the discovery of Hyperspace and untold amounts of evidence of extra-terrestrial life that would come to define Galactic Geography it was apparent that Humanity was not only not alone in the stars, but closer to their sentient brothers than first thought.
It was soon discovered that Humanity was nestled in a large pocket of habitable space with very few large hyperlanes through which to enter or exit. This area of space would come to be what we now know as the Core Worlds. Though largely sheltered from external threats by their galactic position, the Imperial Directorate would fight very hard for many years to finally uproot the vast network of pirates which called Humanity's rightful home their domain.
During this era great strides were made in the naval and colonization technologies. Eventually, after a routine survey was stopped by previously unknown aliens it was discovered that the world of Futexom was home to a civilization not too unsimilar from Humanity's own... However, they came to be on what was then Humanity's back door. Great debates were had over the proposed fate of these Aliens, as they had resisted integration but severely underestimated the Imperial Directorate's naval supremacy.
Not much is known today about the conquest of Futexom, though legends say that the 1st Lord Mountbatten led the final charge at the head of his personal retinue--a much revered regiment still in active duty to this day. Futexom was integrated and after several years of unrest became the capital of what is today, the Expansion, New Expansion, and Tomb Worlds sectors. It is still one of the greatest jewels of the empire and capital of the modern Expansion Sector.
Chapter II: The First Great Revealing and the Petty Wars.
For the next hundred years, Imperial Explorers mapped the Galactic North, discovering many new species and empire, friend and foe, and untold scientific anomaly. It was around this time that contact with the F'luxotl Confederacy was first established. Though it may seem improbable to you now, the modern rump state of the F'luxotl Combine was once an empire greater than our own. Through shrewd colonization policy and careful management of Imperial Outposts, the Mountbatten Imperator-Directorate created a cordon from what is today the Militarized District to the New Worlds Sector, effectively sealing off most of Humanity's claimed--but then-unrecognized--space from would-be betrayers. Despite our timeliness, several F'luxotln outposts were established deep inside Imperial Space.
Over the course of a decade the Imperial-Directorate and her allies fought several wars to expel the slow-to-colonize, but resource-hungry nation from their lands. The warfare was of a low-energy and endemic nature. Finall,y hostilities were ceased and the two nations signed a defensive pact that would stay in effect over several centuries.
It was during this era that people began to seriously talk about the notion of a multi-species empire. The Fuxetomite's--who suffered greatly from racism and poverty--campaigned vigorously to be allowed positions in the government and military.
Chapter III: Unification and the Pax Galactica.
Over the next fifty years, the Imperial-Directorate prospered quietly and by the end of the Petty Wars, had begun to experiment with genetics. They colonized many planets and the Outer Core, New Expansion, Tomb Worlds, and New Worlds sectors came in to existence. Eventually, after the well-documented uplifting of the Roachoid species, the Mountbattens were forced to integrate alien species more fully in to the Empire. A decision that would strengthen them despite civil unrest. (See: The Meta-Human Incident, and: The Establishment of Meta-Earth.)
Gradually, the various territories of the Imperial-Directorate were connected and great infrastructure projects were commissioned to serve both needs of the the Government and the People. It was also around this time that the Imperial Battle Fleet, Imperial Expeditionary Force, and the Imperial Fleet Authority came into being, and with them the final extermination of piracy in the Empire.
The Battle of Yaral V marked the end of the thos troubled times and ushered in what was to be known as the Pax Galactica. Shortly after the Imperial victory, the Terran Imperial Directorate was reorganized as the United Imperial Directorate to show both the increasing prosperity of Core World colonies such as Nova Terra and to mark the official recognition of "Aliens" as citizens.
Chapter IV: The Second Great Revealing and the First True Hyperlane War.
During the Pax Galactica contact was made with every existing sovereignty in the galaxy, thus uniting it. The Propitious Alliance was formed then as way for many small nations to resist the influence of the leading galactic empires. During this time, the wealth of Imperial-Directorate knew no bounds and they traded with anyone who would listen for star maps as they continued their exploration of the galaxy. Despite their dramatic success in creating a cohesive map of the galaxy, several systems remain uncharted due to political concerns.
While there had always been conflict in the Galactic South-East, most of the Galaxy remained at peace. It was then that weencountered the Autocratic Illiaxian Republic. After our then-allies, the Imperial Tradoraan Authority, requested out aid in their war to stop the unchecked spread of the Illiaxians over the Stars we ignited the First True Hyperlane War. While the Southern front was almost a complete route as the Illiaxians swept the Tradoraans away, the Northern front would come to redefine the way wars were fought.
The Imperial fleets were mostly in dry dock at the beginning of the war, and indeed, very few people actually believed this would be more than a few complimentary slaps on the wrists between friendly rivals. That all changed after the Illiaxians decisively smashed the Southern Imperial Defense Network at the 1st Battle of Asmidas II, opening the door to the invasion of the Border Settlements Sector. Panicking, the Imperator-Director did not know what to do. The Imperial Expeditionary Force had not engaged in communications for a week and the Local Sector Capital had reported an invasion force landing before also losing communications. The Mountbattens considered surrender for the first and only time in the history of the Empire. It was then that Admiral Nalla Shaaden limped in to the dockyards of Sol with half of the badly-mauled Expeditionary Forces. It was apparent Shaaden was out for blood and, with the blessing of the Imperator-Director reformed the Navy into the modern-day Imperial Armada. After repairing and refitting the fleet, she made full-steam for Asmidas II intent on revenge.
The After Action Report for the 2nd Battle of Asmidas II is available under the code 121343L-L4 at most colonial libraries. The battle itself lasted 31 days and was, at the time, the largest naval battle in known galactic history with over 200 warships taking part in the slaughter. The combined losses of both sides would number over 150. Though a tactical defeat for the Imperial-Directorate, it was a strategic victory, destroying the majority of the Illiaxians' fleet and crippling the sprawling-but-undeveloped nations ability to invade either the Empire or the Trandoraans. The tactics and strategies of Shaaden are still taught the three Imperial Naval Academies as well as the naval academies of over fifty nations to this day.
Though the Imperial-Directorate would begin a sprawling redesign and rebuilding program for the Armada, the Trandoraans could no longer bare the hardships of war and surrendered after a few months, thus ending the first war fought on a truly galactic scale. It would be almost fifty years before either the Imperial-Directorate or the Illiaxian Republic would be able to field fleets the size of their pre-war counterparts. During this Era much of the Empire was reorganized, both militarily and administratively. Those reforms form the base of our modern government.
Chapter V: The Integration of the K'lantaar and the Greater Imperial Authority.
When the current Imperatrix-Director came to power it was apparent that we would eventually be outpaced by larger empires unless something was done. A solution was found in the Rump States of the F'luxotl Combine and the K'lantaar Confederacy. Today we are on the eve of war with the F'luxotl, yesterday the K'lantaar.
Again, the K'lantaar resisted peaceful integration despited their cultural and technological deficiencies. Needless to say their demise was swift. Though historically protected by a large network of interconnected defensive-pacts, the politically unstable confederacy was forced to withdraw both their ambassadors abroad and their federationship, leaving them exposed to invasion by the Imperial-Directorate and her long-time ally, the Kingdom of Oklarr.
The K'lantaar campaign was swift, over in just three months. In that span of time, the Capital of the confederacy was surrendered to the Empire and three new planets were settled in the Ultaarar region in the Greater Ultaararan and Ultaaran Financial sectors. The navies of the Empire were merciless and her robotic armies brutal. Even as I write, the F'luxotl attempt to politick their way out of a similar fate--to no avail.
After the forceful integration of the K'lantaar our friends, the Oklarr, proposed a mighty alliance. Like the Holy Roman Empire before us, we formed the Greater Imperial Authority, a collection of megacorporations, kingdoms, and the Imperial-Directorate with the purpose of Galactic Advancement.
EDIT: Of middling quality. Just felt like writing the exploits of the Imperator-Director down!
Post by: Wolock on October 23, 2016, 11:03:58 pm
You made all the factions? Ooh. What traits and governments and so forth did you use for them all?
Please do share your empire configs, I want to see how you built the civs.
Here we go:
Spoiler: Gaians (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Spartans (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: The Hive (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Morganite (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: University (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Believers (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: UN Peacekeepers (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Nautilus (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Cult (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Data Angels (click to show/hide)
Disclaimer - The last two factions need rework
Spoiler: Cybernetic Consciouness (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Free Drones (click to show/hide)
Post by: Ultimuh on October 24, 2016, 03:25:11 am
-SMAC Factions-A good idea would be to include possible habitabilities (Nautilus is probably quite obvious though.), and leader titles.
Post by: Radsoc on October 24, 2016, 03:35:24 am
For communist human civs (no ant or bee species) I always put materialist and individualist. A free society of individuals so to speak. Collectivism (in-game) means people are more tolerant to slavery and so on (which the Free Drones would be fighting).
Since revolters in Alpha Centauri could join the Free Drones, xenophile could be an option, to reflect the struggle for liberation of all remaining sentient workers.
However, another complication is that the world of Stellaris really isn't materialist, unless the religious powers are a form of technology.
Post by: Retropunch on October 24, 2016, 06:44:42 am
-Long quote-Very interesting read - can you make sure to spoiler stuff like this though. As fun as it is to read people's backstories/histories, they're a little bit off topic in terms of discussions on the game itself, and can get a bit of a slog when everyone starts posting page length histories.
(I'm not picking on you specifically Urist, I've seen it happen a lot!)
Post by: Wolock on October 24, 2016, 08:44:49 am
-SMAC Factions-A good idea would be to include possible habitabilities (Nautilus is probably quite obvious though.), and leader titles.
I've spread out the world preference to cover the nine types, so there is not always a reason for each match. Also titles are the same from SMAC, only the heir title are created by me.
Gaians : World: Jungle - Titles : Lady/Mister
Spartans : World : Arid - Titles : Colonel
Hive : World : Desert - Titles : Chairman/Chairwoman - Heir : Premier
Morgan : World : Savannah - Titles : CEO
University : World : Tundra - Titles Academician
Believers : World : Desert - Titles : Sister/Brother
Peacekeepers : World : Continental - Titles : Commissionner
Nautilus : World : Ocean - Titles : Captain
Cult : World : Jungle - Titles : Prophet - Heir : High Priest/Priestess
Consciousness : World : Alpine - Titles : Prime Function
Data Angels : World : Continental - Titles : Datajack
Free Drones : World : Artic - Titles : Foreman/Forewoman - Heir : Workteam Leader
Yes, that last faction is difficult. However, I wouldn't necessarily include "collectivism" as per the definition of Stellaris into a necessity for communism/workers' emancipation. Communism is the stage past the time of classes, and the proletarian dictatorship. At a point where technology is ripe enough to make a class less society feasible.
For communist human civs (no ant or bee species) I always put materialist and individualist. A free society of individuals so to speak. Collectivism (in-game) means people are more tolerant to slavery and so on (which the Free Drones would be fighting).
Since revolters in Alpha Centauri could join the Free Drones, xenophile could be an option, to reflect the struggle for liberation of all remaining sentient workers.
However, another complication is that the world of Stellaris really isn't materialist, unless the religious powers are a form of technology.
For the Free Drones I'll tone down the Collectivism, make the switch to Militarist and add Xenophile. My reasoning is that in SMAC until they run Eudaimonia I'll say that they are not past the proletarian dictatorship. Also in game they can still run a Police State and have Drones on their own. Finally, there's already three factions running a Materialist-Individualist combo.
Edit : Corrected the Hive world + Confirmed the heir title of Cult
Post by: Iceblaster on October 24, 2016, 03:47:28 pm
Sooo. In short, FTL Probes are useful as probes. Not scans :P
EDIT: To those who might possibly think the Pre-FTL players mod is a bit boring, it's kinda like playing Civ on Marathon mode. The early game is slow, but this lets you spend more time developing your empire. At least, in my experience at least :P
Plus, it has the interesting thing in that players can end up encountering non-ftl empires who are basically stuck in what planets they've colonized, military wise.
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 24, 2016, 03:51:50 pm
Post by: Wolock on October 24, 2016, 04:21:41 pm
Don't forget free drones are industrious, but have a research penalty. So ethics that focus on happiness and industry over finances and social control are most appropriate
The new version of Free Drones are now Collectivist, Xenophile, Militarist. The original version already had Industrious and Communal trait.
I'm still not satisfy with the ethos and looking at the AI personalities for the game I might try Fanatic Collectivist, Pacifist to get the Harmonious Collective personality and see what happen.
EDIT :
Post by: Ultimuh on October 25, 2016, 01:11:01 am
Currently though, the RNG seem to put me among the polar opposite to me (aggressive ones when I'm trying to be a diplomatic and peaceful federation builder) early on, so I think early aggressive expansion would be the key here.
My question is.. What is the best combination, for building many ships as fast and cost-efficiently as possible?
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on October 25, 2016, 01:35:25 am
Also try to avoid building fortifications if you want a larger fleet. They suck up a lot of maintenance. Can be useful in delaying the enemy and preventing invasions from reaching more Core-ward planets.
... Just realized you meant government types... Try Junta I think it is? or Military republic? Along with industrialist. The more empire-themed gov'ts also have some interesting fleet-related edicts, also the Space Empire's +20% to border range is a real boost in acquire new mining rights. Really the key is just trying to max out mineral and credit income while lowering fleet maintenance (and optionally repair and upgrade costs.)
Post by: PanH on October 25, 2016, 01:54:37 am
Post by: Flying Dice on October 25, 2016, 02:28:33 am
Right now though I'm playing Fanatic Militarist + Spiritualist (since I took the -food trait for points) and focusing on booming my economy; I'm pretty much permanently energy capped even though I'm spamming stations and ships like no tomorrow. IIRC Spiritualist is one of the ones that gets really nice permanent empire bonuses from certain events.
Post by: Ultimuh on October 25, 2016, 02:32:24 am
What I need is to get out as many ships as early as possible, so I can crush those closest to me early on.
I'm not too concerned with end-game results unless there is a crisis going on.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 25, 2016, 03:38:08 am
Post by: Digital Hellhound on October 25, 2016, 05:06:23 am
The thing is, they also kill my ruler when I surrender. Ten years later, they declare war again, I surrender, they kill my ruler... and suddenly I realize I'm essentially offering up my rulers as ritual sacrifices to appease the FE every ten years, in some kind of amazingly twisted tributary relationship. I can only imagine how the young rulers feel about this.
But I'll have my revenge. I grow stronger with every cycle, and one day I will claim a million Fallen souls for every one of my people lost.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on October 25, 2016, 06:38:29 am
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on October 25, 2016, 06:46:02 am
Post by: Drakale on October 25, 2016, 10:49:54 am
I'm in a situation where I got greedy and, uh, colonized near an isolationist Fallen Empire... a lot. Predictably, they eventually declared war... but the wargoal was just Humiliate. I didn't have a problem with that when I expected losing half of my worlds, so I just smiled, surrendered and took it like a champ.
The thing is, they also kill my ruler when I surrender. Ten years later, they declare war again, I surrender, they kill my ruler... and suddenly I realize I'm essentially offering up my rulers as ritual sacrifices to appease the FE every ten years, in some kind of amazingly twisted tributary relationship. I can only imagine how the young rulers feel about this.
But I'll have my revenge. I grow stronger with every cycle, and one day I will claim a million Fallen souls for every one of my people lost.
That's pretty cool. Does only the FE get to kill your leader with a humiliate war goal?
In my game a FE peacekeeper awakened very early in the game, and ate up the decent sized terran empire in a very un-peaceful way. They where easily stronger than the rest of the galaxy combined(including 2 other FE) at the time I think. They wanted me to sign their manifesto, which would bind me from declaring war and I refused, leading them to hate me. They haven't declared war yet, but somehow suddenly everyone near me got very interested in alliances so we got a loose bloc of resisting empires right now. I started building a strong defense around one of my frontier world as a trap, in case they decide to wipe us out for the greater good. Meanwhile, I am researching some ancient technology I found in an event that might one day allow me to stand up to the bullies. Pretty fun game overall, even if it got kinda stalled by the gigantic threat of the FE.
Post by: Cruxador on October 25, 2016, 11:17:46 am
I hear that Fallen Empires have something of a weakness at close range. Is it true they still don't replenish their fleets? If you can somehow avoid the bulk of their battle fleet you may be able to whittle them down? Perhaps sacrifice you own fleet in an attempt to destroy one or two of their ships to research after the hostilities conclude?They'll start building ships after they Awaken, which will happen if you score a significant victory over them. Killing a couple to research their husks is a tenable idea though.
Post by: Furtuka on October 25, 2016, 11:33:13 am
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on October 25, 2016, 12:37:34 pm
Post by: Draignean on October 25, 2016, 02:20:25 pm
I keep coming across this and wanting it, but... I'm not as ready to jump on a new game as I once was.
Post by: Drakale on October 25, 2016, 02:38:27 pm
Alright, I'm reticent to put on a let's play, because (if I buy it) I'd like it to be as new and fresh as possible, but, in comparison to something like Sword of the Stars (my all time favorite 4x sci-fi which I have spent more on than any other game in buying it for the other people in the vain hope that they'll get somewhat into it and play a game with me) what's it like?
I keep coming across this and wanting it, but... I'm not as ready to jump on a new game as I once was.
Personally I think it has a lot to improve on. It is not terrible, but if you come from SotS you may be disappointed. They did try some new ideas which sound cool on paper but seem like they didn't quite pan out, like the use of sectors for late game empire management. Stuff like fallen empire are good, but they need more possible interaction that ignore/kill binary that they are right now. I'll probably finish my current game and wait for a new significant patch or good mod before I play again.
Post by: Shadowlord on October 25, 2016, 03:35:58 pm
I'll probably finish my current game and wait for a new significant patch or good mod before I play again.
Wait, didn't they just have a new significant patch and dlc?
Post by: Drakale on October 25, 2016, 04:11:44 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on October 25, 2016, 04:29:38 pm
Might go back and do some weapon tweaks again, because it's still pretty broken (though it looks like the combat computers aren't pants-on-head stupid now).
Post by: Retropunch on October 25, 2016, 05:23:44 pm
Alright, I'm reticent to put on a let's play, because (if I buy it) I'd like it to be as new and fresh as possible, but, in comparison to something like Sword of the Stars (my all time favorite 4x sci-fi which I have spent more on than any other game in buying it for the other people in the vain hope that they'll get somewhat into it and play a game with me) what's it like?
I keep coming across this and wanting it, but... I'm not as ready to jump on a new game as I once was.
I'd say hold off for now - I believe it's probably another one to two patches and a content DLC away from being a great game. Currently it's just lacking in some areas - diplomacy is rubbish, and there's no espionage or 'soft' actions - it's just war or nothing pretty much. That's the problem really - it was touted as being a 'space empire sim', but it's really more a 4x wa game rather than anything else currently. I believe that'll change as they add more character stuff and soft actions, and it's already starting to take shape.
Give it another month or two and it'll be great - each patch brings it so much further forward, and I don't believe they'll be slowing down soon - Paradox games are always like this.
Post by: Flying Dice on October 25, 2016, 05:50:19 pm
Post by: GiglameshDespair on October 25, 2016, 06:12:57 pm
I just want to be able to completely expel alien populations from captured planets. Instead I have to fuck with game files so that everyone can purge, when it would be so much easier to just have a policy that let you choose between integrate/deport/purge captured populations.It's too difficult to deport illegal aliens.
Perhaps you should build a space wall to keep them out.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on October 25, 2016, 06:35:05 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on October 25, 2016, 07:37:15 pm
It'd make for an interesting decision in part because of the differing environmental tolerances -- do you keep the aliens that like to live on the frigid shithole worlds and accept the ethical pollution and unhappiness, or do you kill them off/displace them (thus leaving you with empty worlds that add to your energy upkeep and losing the potential to colonize the sorts of worlds they like).
Would also be nice to have an option for mass-brainwashing to convert captured pops to your own ethics directly, especially for spiritualist civs.
Post by: Flying Dice on October 25, 2016, 10:10:28 pm
Basically this way you still have the distinct advantages of the different other weapon types, but missiles now have their own advantage of standoff range (longer for larger missiles, though smaller missiles also have better speed and evasion). It also means that PD isn't a perfect hard counter--generally with this setup you should need slightly more than 2x as many PD turrets as the enemy has missile launchers in order to shoot down everything, whereas in vanilla you could almost do it with fewer PD turrets than there were launchers.
However, to remove the possibility of late-game cheese with corvette missileboats kiting forever, I gave the energy lances, kinetic artillery, and large mass accelerators (basically all the yuge cap-ship weapons) much longer ranges and slightly improved shield damage/pen stats (varying) so that they could outrange all small missiles and most (in some cases all) medium missiles. Of course large missile still retain a (slight) range advantage, and all missiles have lower cooldowns than those big guns (and also better accuracy), meaning that there shouldn't be a point where battleship snipers can just pew pew missileboats with impunity. Torps are mostly fine where they are now, but I gave them a slight tier-scaling speed increase.
That, and I gave the autocannons a slight tier-scaling cooldown buff. They're supposed to be short-ranged chainsaws, they should act like it. Also bumped strike craft attack and recall ranges waaaay out, to something like 2.5x the maximum range of any other weapon, which is still absurdly short for carrier-launched fighters but with the game's scale the way it is...
Tentatively, it looks like they might have unfucked combat behavior for real, so I didn't touch that.
Post by: Putnam on October 26, 2016, 02:40:27 am
On the other hand, that's a bug more than a balance issue.
Post by: lastverb on October 26, 2016, 05:26:56 am
Point defense systems always aim for fighters and bombers before missiles, including if the missiles are in range and the fighters aren't. This is highly exploitable.
On the other hand, that's a bug more than a balance issue.
It's there since day 1. I have been exploiting it hard to teach "evade stacking is OP" bobs. It was even better in first days since fighters/bombers didn't even move away from a carrier, so never got in range to be shot.
Good to know they didn't even fix such a basic stuff since then.
Post by: Flying Dice on October 26, 2016, 06:42:06 am
'course that's not really the intended reason, just a bonus that comes about because even after multiple patches the game is still buggy and unbalanced. #justparadoxthings
Now I wonder if I should check to see if that one set of event policies is still fucked up and half-unusable because they changed the format for its terms halfway through writing them.
Post by: lastverb on October 26, 2016, 07:38:06 am
Yeah, that's one of the side reasons I gave strike craft such a long range, I'm not sure where the PD targeting priorities are defined, they don't appear to be in standard_ship_behaviors unless there's something even weirder going on with how the game handles projectile-based weapons.
PD priorities are hardcoded, unless something changed since 1st patch, but prioritizing things outside of range would still be a bug.
Post by: Drakale on October 26, 2016, 08:48:30 am
My sectors seem to love emptying their funds building lvl 6 space station while not building any ground improvement, the priorities are all wrong. Literally there are worlds with a full 20 pop and not a single improvement, despite me dumping massive funds in their banks.
Also, the game need a way to order ships in a generic menu and it get auto assigned to idle spaceports. I only ever use my core worlds build queue because selecting sectors world production is such a pain.
Post by: Flying Dice on October 26, 2016, 01:12:29 pm
Yeah, that's one of the side reasons I gave strike craft such a long range, I'm not sure where the PD targeting priorities are defined, they don't appear to be in standard_ship_behaviors unless there's something even weirder going on with how the game handles projectile-based weapons.
PD priorities are hardcoded, unless something changed since 1st patch, but prioritizing things outside of range would still be a bug.
That's what I was thinking, but part of me couldn't help wondering if they were being really obtuse and treating missiles + torps + strike craft as ships for targeting purposes (as a special class or something to keep non-PD from targeting them), with bad code and the weight difference between the size_difference_penalty and distance_to_fleet_penalty resulting in the bugged targeting.
That, or they intended for strike craft to be like Protoss Carriers and fighters and only ever be active at extremely close ranges (where their relatively high damage potential would make priority-targeting them make sense) and the fact that strike craft would deploy and then fly around uselessly at far beyond their allowed attack range was the bugged behavior.
Honestly the entire facet of strike craft combat seems like they had a list somewhere with an item that said "Carriers and starfighters" and all they bothered doing was getting the assets in-game without bothering to think about how they should work. :I
e: At any rate, giving them such a long engagement range should at least ensure that the AI doesn't accidentally exploit it, and I don't do so myself.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on October 26, 2016, 01:40:11 pm
Post by: umiman on October 26, 2016, 02:17:44 pm
Wait strikecraft are powerful? I wouldn't know since they didn't put any relaxant date in the Battle report. >:( like seriously Paradox you know how many die so why can you tell me how much damage the did?I think there's a top post on the subreddit about the weapon changes.
I'd link it but I'm mobile. It should be on the front page though.
From what I read, the changes are pretty extensive.
On strikecraft, I think it takes about how they're really damaging now, but because all the AI spam PD, the fighters are almost useless or something.
Post by: Flying Dice on October 26, 2016, 02:24:28 pm
Post by: Neonivek on October 26, 2016, 02:29:37 pm
Mm, in vanilla anything that is countered by PD is useless. They're too strong to begin with and AI love making fleets with a ton of it.
Oddly enough I don't even think anything makes up for that weakness.
The best weapons in the game are immune to PD
Post by: Sprin on October 26, 2016, 02:37:00 pm
Halp
Post by: Xgamer4 on October 26, 2016, 03:05:09 pm
Post by: GiglameshDespair on October 26, 2016, 03:33:29 pm
So recently the Unbiden showed upThey had just been Biden their time
Halp
Post by: umiman on October 26, 2016, 03:39:22 pm
This is such Hillarity.So recently the Unbiden showed upThey had just been Biden their time
Halp
Post by: hector13 on October 26, 2016, 03:40:39 pm
Too bad they're gonna get Trump'dThis is such Hillarity.So recently the Unbiden showed upThey had just been Biden their time
Halp
Post by: Flying Dice on October 26, 2016, 04:58:48 pm
Gonna have to go through and duplicate & rewrite all of the entries for all of the combat computers and class behaviors so that I can at least give them all the two basic options of "charge in" and "hold the range open". :IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Post by: Retropunch on October 26, 2016, 05:14:28 pm
Jesus tapdancing christ. Wanna know how they "fixed" ship behavior? They just made a set of class-based default behaviors. That's why you can't give aggressive/defensive computers to everything, they (apparently) aren't actually in the game now, it's just that tier 2+ CCs use their old images. And all of the class CCs still use the same default behaviors, which is why they'll always be forced to act the same way regardless of what weapons or equipment you give them. Missiles and a big engine on a corvette? Charge right in! Autocannons and thick armor on a destroyer? Sit at the back!
Gonna have to go through and duplicate & rewrite all of the entries for all of the combat computers and class behaviors so that I can at least give them all the two basic options of "charge in" and "hold the range open". :IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
The reason they've done that is to try to give the classes some differentiation rather than just encouraging corvette spam which was the old optimal play style. It does restrict the player, but as there's no tactical gameplay, not a great deal is lost by it. I'd have personally preferred them to allow the player to change it up if they'd like, (no 'combat computer' - just set the range that design should engage at) but it's better than before I think.
Post by: Iceblaster on October 26, 2016, 06:10:49 pm
I felt guilty just conquering them, but I need those resources :P
Once I get the ability to have Xeno leaders, I plan on putting a Ymacera in charge of the place.
Post by: Karnewarrior on October 26, 2016, 06:24:51 pm
Don't worry. The Unbidden aren't worth six Pence.Too bad they're gonna get Trump'dThis is such Hillarity.So recently the Unbiden showed upThey had just been Biden their time
Halp
Post by: Sprin on October 26, 2016, 06:55:16 pm
Don't worry. The Unbidden aren't worth six Pence.Too bad they're gonna get Trump'dThis is such Hillarity.So recently the Unbiden showed upThey had just been Biden their time
Halp
Let it be known the Galaxy ended because of puns and bad spelling
Post by: Sirus on October 26, 2016, 07:11:21 pm
It becomes virtually unplayable. The only half-way decent solution I have is to re-install.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on October 26, 2016, 07:11:54 pm
Well we knew we where going to Bern up the puns eventually.Don't worry. The Unbidden aren't worth six Pence.Too bad they're gonna get Trump'dThis is such Hillarity.So recently the Unbiden showed upThey had just been Biden their time
Halp
Let it be known the Galaxy ended because of puns and bad spelling
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on October 26, 2016, 07:13:07 pm
I have this recurring and very annoying issue where the game basically corrupts spontaneously. Hotkeys suddenly no longer work or change completely, many things can't be clicked on, visual bugs pop up...
It becomes virtually unplayable. The only half-way decent solution I have is to re-install.
Manually Uncompress and recompress the save, I've started to do it after I notice a lot of that stuff disappear while save game editing.
Post by: Flying Dice on October 26, 2016, 07:19:34 pm
That's what I'm doing (except without high range granularity because that sucked the first time); each computer gives the same bonuses to its class, except that there are two versions. One prompts the ship to stay at medium-long range and shoot, the other to close the distance and brawl. All the stats are the same as they are in vanilla right now.Jesus tapdancing christ. Wanna know how they "fixed" ship behavior? They just made a set of class-based default behaviors. That's why you can't give aggressive/defensive computers to everything, they (apparently) aren't actually in the game now, it's just that tier 2+ CCs use their old images. And all of the class CCs still use the same default behaviors, which is why they'll always be forced to act the same way regardless of what weapons or equipment you give them. Missiles and a big engine on a corvette? Charge right in! Autocannons and thick armor on a destroyer? Sit at the back!
Gonna have to go through and duplicate & rewrite all of the entries for all of the combat computers and class behaviors so that I can at least give them all the two basic options of "charge in" and "hold the range open". :IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
The reason they've done that is to try to give the classes some differentiation rather than just encouraging corvette spam which was the old optimal play style. It does restrict the player, but as there's no tactical gameplay, not a great deal is lost by it. I'd have personally preferred them to allow the player to change it up if they'd like, (no 'combat computer' - just set the range that design should engage at) but it's better than before I think.
Also at some point someone made a typo on the icon file for the precog computers and called them "pregoc" computers... and apparently it was easier to perpetuate that mistake across all instances that referenced that file than to fix it. I can't be arsed to do it either. :V
Post by: Sirus on October 26, 2016, 07:35:02 pm
You're gonna have to explain that process for me. Also it happens with brand new, unsaved games.I have this recurring and very annoying issue where the game basically corrupts spontaneously. Hotkeys suddenly no longer work or change completely, many things can't be clicked on, visual bugs pop up...
It becomes virtually unplayable. The only half-way decent solution I have is to re-install.
Manually Uncompress and recompress the save, I've started to do it after I notice a lot of that stuff disappear while save game editing.
Post by: Flying Dice on October 26, 2016, 08:26:15 pm
Spoiler: There, fuck it, done for tonight (click to show/hide)
Took me gorram forever to remember where they had the file that points the components to their icons. Also stumbled across more typos that were perpetuated throughout.
Might actually put it together for a proper download at some point when I have time, right now it overwrites core files. On the default/sentient/pre"goc" computers I fucked with the icons using the colors from the aggro/defensive computers to help differentiate them visually. Every ship class gets the full run of computers with their vanilla stat bonus, but split into two trees to allow them to fight aggressively or defensively.
Unfortunately a lot of them share descriptions with other class behaviors because I have no clue where those are kept. Not that anyone really reads those tooltips for anything but stats, so who cares?
The behaviors are probably also all fucked up, I'll fix them over time when I notice stuff that's off.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on October 26, 2016, 08:28:18 pm
http://www.stellariswiki.com/Save-game_editing (http://www.stellariswiki.com/Save-game_editing) And if it's happening to new games, then something funky is going on that new to me.]You're gonna have to explain that process for me. Also it happens with brand new, unsaved games.I have this recurring and very annoying issue where the game basically corrupts spontaneously. Hotkeys suddenly no longer work or change completely, many things can't be clicked on, visual bugs pop up...
It becomes virtually unplayable. The only half-way decent solution I have is to re-install.
Manually Uncompress and recompress the save, I've started to do it after I notice a lot of that stuff disappear while save game editing.
Also, Flying Dice plz release your changes it'll make the game so much more interesting.
Post by: Flying Dice on October 26, 2016, 08:47:43 pm
In fact, here (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ccakba0h4gz430r/dicemod.zip?dl=0). That's the weapon and combat computer changes. Ship behaviors are fucked with a little as well. Stick it in C: > Users > [your name] > Documents > Paradox Interactive > Stellaris > mod > [make a folder, call it whatever you want, unzip inside].
Start the launcher up, find whatever you named it as on the mod list, activate it like normal. I'd appreciate it if nobody nicks it and uploads as their own on the workshop but honestly that's like 2-3h of sloppy work so IDGAF, mostly. If anyone actually bothers, I'll upload updates here when I make changes. Might stick it on the workshop if it ever gets to the point that I'm willing to recommend it.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on October 26, 2016, 08:56:38 pm
Post by: etgfrog on October 27, 2016, 03:11:58 am
Post by: Digital Hellhound on October 27, 2016, 03:40:23 am
So in my game there was a militaristic fallen empire that awakened, right away I declared war on them and they reply with "Greetings!"
Maybe declaring war is like saying hi in their culture. You're the first friend they've made in this strange galaxy and they're just pumped to get to know you better. Entire fleets of friendships are on their way!
Post by: etgfrog on October 27, 2016, 05:57:18 am
I will have to see, they are on the other side of the galaxy, I have psi jump drive and several enigmatic techs. The first engagement was in their favor and was next to their space. I do know the other fallen empire declared war on me and couldn't reach my space because neutral empires in the way.So in my game there was a militaristic fallen empire that awakened, right away I declared war on them and they reply with "Greetings!"
Maybe declaring war is like saying hi in their culture. You're the first friend they've made in this strange galaxy and they're just pumped to get to know you better. Entire fleets of friendships are on their way!
Edit: Spoke too soon, that is a 100k stack
Post by: TempAcc on October 27, 2016, 06:33:24 am
Post by: Digital Hellhound on October 27, 2016, 02:47:51 pm
I'm pretty sure I might trigger their one-world remnant Awakening, but I'm confident in my ability to crush them if they dare. The other FEs in the galaxy Awakening, though... that could be problematic. Still worth it. Sweet, sweet revenge.
Post by: umiman on October 28, 2016, 12:25:10 pm
So turn it off.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on October 28, 2016, 01:13:25 pm
Apparently there's a bug right now where if you allow sector AI to build space stations and other space stuff, it won't build any planetary improvements at all. Also it will use YOUR money and minerals to build the space stuff.
So turn it off.
Fucking chri91st, how do you not see that during anysort of QA?
Post by: Teneb on October 28, 2016, 01:14:56 pm
QA is to test if the game doesn't crash and such, not actually finding bugs. Which explains a lot.Apparently there's a bug right now where if you allow sector AI to build space stations and other space stuff, it won't build any planetary improvements at all. Also it will use YOUR money and minerals to build the space stuff.
So turn it off.
Fucking chri91st, how do you not see that during anysort of QA?
Post by: GiglameshDespair on October 28, 2016, 02:05:41 pm
Unless you're talking about stellaris in particular, I guess?
Post by: Teneb on October 28, 2016, 02:08:58 pm
I do QA for games and in many of them I'm searching for any kind of bug.I guess the definition of QA can change from company to company.
Unless you're talking about stellaris in particular, I guess?
Post by: Flying Dice on October 28, 2016, 02:11:32 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on October 28, 2016, 02:14:50 pm
Paradox QA consists of "Does it crash on launch? If no, ship it," I sometimes suspect.
That's their actually policy, Like seriously look at the release of pretty much any of their games. If they weren't the only people actually reliably making games like this I probably would buy their products.
Post by: Neonivek on October 28, 2016, 03:21:22 pm
Paradox QA consists of "Does it crash on launch? If no, ship it," I sometimes suspect.
That's their actually policy, Like seriously look at the release of pretty much any of their games. If they weren't the only people actually reliably making games like this I probably would buy their products.
Man isn't it great how well people eat their words these days? :P
Remember when people said day 1 patches were fine?
Well now we have games that don't work until a week after launch.
Remember when people said day 1 DLC was fine?
Well now games are nickle and dimed to us with inferior quality!
---
Stellaris is currently going through its "We want money" phase... the content isn't worthwhile and MOST of it is to fix broken content but they want your money.
WELCOME TO FREEKEN PARADOX INTERACTIVE!
Post by: Sirus on October 28, 2016, 03:48:06 pm
Post by: Neonivek on October 28, 2016, 03:50:15 pm
What "broken content" are they charging for, exactly...?
Fallen Empires.
They clearly didn't make them the way they wanted to, believe they are a detriment to the gameplay, so are now backpedaling to try to make them meaningful in any small way.
Post by: Sirus on October 28, 2016, 03:54:49 pm
Post by: Neonivek on October 28, 2016, 04:04:55 pm
Well, aside from the possibility of Awakened Empires going to war with each other, the changes to Fallen Empires were in a free update, so...
To make it compatible with DLC they were making.
Post by: Sirus on October 28, 2016, 04:06:13 pm
Post by: Neonivek on October 28, 2016, 04:08:42 pm
But you don't need the DLC unless you want Wars in Heaven. IIRC, Fallen Empires can wake up regardless.
Who said you NEED DLC?
Post by: Sirus on October 28, 2016, 04:15:58 pm
Post by: Neonivek on October 28, 2016, 04:18:41 pm
Are we talking semantics here? Technically, no one "needs" DLC. The entire point of DLC is optional stuff that you pay extra for, like ye olde expansion packs.
My point was that they screwed up, in their own minds... and are charging for DLC that is meant to alleviate it.
With "Free" dlc being more to accompany the DLC...
Like what Crusader Kings 2 does a lot of the time
Post by: Ultimuh on October 28, 2016, 04:18:48 pm
Post by: Iceblaster on October 28, 2016, 04:19:42 pm
They clearly didn't make them the way they wanted to, believe they are a detriment to the gameplay, so are now backpedaling to try to make them meaningful in any small way.
Where did the dev team say this? I don't want any 'look at how they are' bullshit. Where did any of the dev team say this. I'm not fanboying, I'm just annoyed when people make criticisms based on 'he said she said' without any evidence or situations where they've said it.
Post by: Neonivek on October 28, 2016, 04:20:34 pm
Don't need DLC? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA1mbZ_MMh8)
Sounds silly but companies KNOW this is exactly what happens with DLC.
People have a compulsive need to have a complete product...
It is why... Crusader Kings 2 makes it VERY VERY known that you do not have the finished game. Instead of making it... less obvious :P
Where did the dev team say this? I don't want any 'look at how they are' bullshit. Where did any of the dev team say this. I'm not fanboying, I'm just annoyed when people make criticisms based on 'he said she said' without any evidence or situations where they've said it.
Man... because Dev teams are so transparent and honest!
Post by: Iceblaster on October 28, 2016, 04:22:38 pm
Am I wrong?
Post by: Neonivek on October 28, 2016, 04:24:30 pm
You made that statement very confidentially. They clearly didn't think Fallen Empires are so detrimental to gameplay they decided to just make token efforts in a DLC not related to them to make the fanbase happy.
Am I wrong?
The DLC is directly related to them. Leviathan is its marketing name... mostly because that one feature is so scant in it of itself.
The DLC is them trying to prop up their front loaded gameplay.
Post by: Ultimuh on October 28, 2016, 04:26:17 pm
The plantoid pack too, even if it didn't have any actual gameplay elements.
And I am exited to see what they will come up with next.
As long as I can afford to buy other things too of course.
Post by: Neonivek on October 28, 2016, 04:29:20 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
*flies off on a broomstick*
Post by: Iceblaster on October 28, 2016, 04:31:40 pm
Well, that's beside the point. Was I wrong in the assumption you knew that the dev team thought fallen empires were detrimental to gameplay. Or am I painting the wrong picture? Because honestly, I'm no there to antagonize anyone. I just hate it when someone decides to spend so much time criticizing something without any reason for me, a bystander, to change my opinion. A simple link to a statement or twitter message would at least give me a chance to see if I'm wrong or right in believing the Leviathan DLC is horrible or not.You made that statement very confidentially. They clearly didn't think Fallen Empires are so detrimental to gameplay they decided to just make token efforts in a DLC not related to them to make the fanbase happy.
Am I wrong?
The DLC is directly related to them. Leviathan is its marketing name... mostly because that one feature is so scant in it of itself.
The DLC is them trying to prop up their front loaded gameplay.
Which of course ties into why Paradox has such problems with their DLC and their gameplay... And what the DLC often props up.
To admit Paradox isn't the only company that tries to prop up missing gameplay features, glitches, bugs, and issues with paid DLC...
Though they are the most blatant and transparent when they do.
Cheese DLC anyone?
Sooo. When you were playing let's say... The Sims. Did you buy any of the expansions that came out? Because buying any of those is basically saying 'we want unfinished games! these features could have been out in the start!'
I realize it doesn't excuse the DLC policy, but honestly IMO, Expansion packs and DLC are one in the same. Both add content and cost additional money. Some should've been in from the start, others are stuff that I would've never thought could be fun. Hating DLC just to hate DLC is a bit harsh tbh.
Post by: Neonivek on October 28, 2016, 04:52:52 pm
Quote
When you were playing let's say... The Sims.
I am an expert on The Sims... You do NOT want to go there. :P
Post by: Iceblaster on October 28, 2016, 04:56:21 pm
Post by: Neonivek on October 28, 2016, 04:57:43 pm
No harm intended in anything I said. Just was trying to see why you think that way. Apologies if it came out that way.
I know that I am annoying people big time.
I know I typically don't trust developers own words because... well... they are "Team players". Yet people are still into stellaris right now.
I typically try to filter my... extreme dislike of some business practices... Giving less game for more money.
Post by: Iceblaster on October 28, 2016, 05:04:42 pm
But then again, I'm probably just too complacent for my own good :v
Post by: Neonivek on October 28, 2016, 05:07:22 pm
It just matters if the game is a solid experience on its own without any odd gaps.
I get annoyed when people proclaim every feature as if it was missing... even if it was only in expansion content in previous games.
And paradox gets my ire more because they make games I actually play.
Unlike EA who lost my complete faith in a long time ago...
Post by: Iceblaster on October 28, 2016, 05:11:33 pm
Post by: Neonivek on October 28, 2016, 05:12:35 pm
Ah. Yeah, I mean. Stellaris was pretty fun when it first came out. Watched the pre-release stuff on youtube. I liked what I saw. Yeah, there were flaws but overall it looked like a pretty fun game. And it was. Mods did fix things when they came around, add stuff, etc. But even without those, it still was a fun experience. YMMV, as always but my point doesn't change.
Stellaris is one of the best 4x games of its type (Space) ever made.
But that only kind of highlights how poor the showing has been.
Post by: Iceblaster on October 28, 2016, 05:16:48 pm
Post by: Wiles on October 28, 2016, 05:38:59 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on October 28, 2016, 06:20:16 pm
stuffMan isn't it great how well people eat their words these days? :P
Remember when people said day 1 patches were fine?
Well now we have games that don't work until a week after launch.
You know what's dumb?
Most "slippery slope" arguments.
You know what's also stupid?
This particular quote.
Day 1 patches are fine. They exist because once you start distributing the game but it still hasn't released yet, you can't exactly push updates to the game. And because you don't want the developers sitting around doing nothing, you generally have them fix any issues found since distribution started or not deemed critical enough to fix before distribution.
Since as I said, you can't push new updates through, you have to wait until it's released for the update. Hence the day one update.
Sure, it's not great to release broken games, but dear god, day 1 patches =/= releasing a broken/buggy game.
Post by: Iceblaster on October 28, 2016, 06:33:08 pm
It'd just be like the good old days! :P
which i wasn't a part of so don't yell at me pls
Post by: Flying Dice on October 28, 2016, 07:53:21 pm
Post by: Puzzlemaker on October 28, 2016, 07:58:51 pm
Post by: umiman on October 28, 2016, 09:36:50 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
In terms of weapons, you definitely, DEFINITELY want armour-piercing.
Like, everything else is worthless if you're fighting against the AI. The Fallen Empires, Superunits, and all the other funky stuff all have gigatonnes of armour. Haven't noticed shields doing anything useful.
So yeah, if you want to stand any chance against the real threats of the game, you're going plasma and anything else that penetrates armour.
------------
Oh man this War in Heaven shit is breaking me really bad.
Only one Empire has awaken so far and it's the bloody Enigmatic Observers. The Militant Isolationists are still chilling and doing nothing. Thankfully the Observers are on the opposite side of the galaxy from me and they consumed about 40 planets when they initially struck out. This made every single other faction in the game band together in defense pacts. This includes me. Because I don't want to die.
I'm not sure what chance we have though. Because if the Militants wake up I'm in deep shit. The Militants are right next door to me (and thankfully in the way of the Observers).
My hope is the Observers wake up the Militants, then I can be left alone to tech up.
Post by: Wiles on October 29, 2016, 10:52:49 am
The fallen empire that borders my empire woke up and became Jingoistic Reclaimers, so they're pretty hellbent on retaking the galaxy. Unfortunately at almost exactly the same time the Unbidden arrived on the other side of the galaxy. I would have liked to have dealt with the Unbidden ASAP but the Jingoist Reclaimers declared war on a member of my federation. They had a fleet strength of 140k which put to shame my 40k fleet pretty easily. Thankfully he mostly wanted the planets belonging to my ally (though he did take my shiny new gaia world :(). After the war was over I abandoned my federation to strike out on my own because I figured I'd be better off without them.
I was licking my wounds and rebuilding my fleet when another fallen empire woke up beside me. This one was of the guardians of knowledge (or whatever they are called) variety. I thought they'd be pretty mad at me because of my synths and other various dangerous techs but they sent me a message that was something along the lines of the galaxy is ending lets be best buds. So I formed a federation with my new Watchful Regulator friends.
At this point I'm pretty sure I've lost though, my new awakened fallen empire friends are decently strong but not as strong as the big angry reclaimers on the other side of my empire. And the Unbidden have been expanding unchecked for a while now, I have a feeling it is too late to stop them, last time I sent a fleet over it got instantly devoured by a multitude of large unbidden fleets. You don't seem to be considered at war when fighting the unbidden so I can't really get my Fallen Empire buds to go on a field trip across the galaxy with me as far as I can tell. Not that the follow my fleet thing always works anyway, seems pretty hit or miss if they follow you or not. I still can't seem to figure out how to control Federation fleets when I'm el presidente either, they seem to go where they please.
I'm curious to see what happens in the long term, I'm assuming the unbidden will devour everything including the reclaimers. In the meantime I'd like to see if I can find any remaining space boss monsters, I've killed two so far. I haven't seen the dragon yet though.
Post by: Girlinhat on October 29, 2016, 11:06:45 am
I dunno, so much of it forces micromanagement and makes you suffer because the AI isn't terribly well optimized...
Post by: umiman on October 29, 2016, 11:15:22 am
In fact, I had the meteor event show up on a colony too far from my fleets which were fighting the Unbidden so I kinda wrote it off. Then I found out one of my neighbours sent over a small fleet to kill it for me.
And in regards to the Unbidden, my vassals at least were helping me attack the space stations that the Unbidden constructors were throwing up. I know they killed quite a few.
---------
Wiles:
I know the thing that's keeping me alive for now while I deal with the Unbidden as the awakened FE sits around is that every single empire in the galaxy is in a defensive pact with one another. The threat generated by the FE was so massive. Now the FE doesn't dare to attack anyone else as that would mean declaring war on everyone. This is buying me a lot of time as I get to deal with this bloody Unbidden invasion.
Also I have a really crazy amount of vassals and protectorates. Those guys fight wars better than I do. I'm a militaristic, xenophillic, individualistic race. So I went around aggressively making forced allies and uplifting races.
---------
This is a pretty funny state right now.
Stellaris is now pretty fun at the start. Super boring in the midgame. Now really tense in the late. I guess they're making progress.
Post by: Sirus on October 29, 2016, 12:09:29 pm
Spent the last few hours trying to update a species mod to the new version, as the mod author seems to be ignoring it. I know absolutely nothing about modding, but I followed a guide and used a working species mod as a sort of yardstick to measure against. Once everything seemed to be okay, I compressed the files, replaced the original .zip (don't worry, I backed it up somewhere else), and fired up Stellaris.
Stellaris crashes on launch. I assume I messed up somewhere but these are basically a bunch of text files along with some untouched images. Maybe Steam is confused because the files don't match the workshop upload. Dunno.
Post by: Flying Dice on October 29, 2016, 12:33:47 pm
Post by: Sirus on October 29, 2016, 01:46:00 pm
On one side, I have systems with heavy crystalline presence. Including some sort of nexus thing. My first corvette scout fleet jumped right into the middle of a 1.2k-strength fleet and died before I could retreat.
I rebuilt, eventually. Gave the new fleet an admiral. Went exploring in a different direction. Encountered the only other AI empire. Exploration in that direction is basically pointless now, unless the AI empire is friendly enough to allow open borders once we make contact.
EDIT: Contact made, despite being fellow xenophiles they immediately close borders. How nice. Also they are militarists and I decided to go pacifist. Extra nice.
Traveled in a third direction. Encountered a pirate haven with a 6k+ fleet hanging out right on the near edge of the system. I lost my second fleet along with the admiral. I don't want to go anywhere near that, so a third direction of travel is denied to me...and if the massive pirate fleet decides to come snooping around I have absolutely nothing to stop them. Shit, I just got ion thrusters.
EDIT2: Bad luck, I guess. Science ship critically failed an anomaly, resulting in the loss of the ship and the 4-star scientist on board. Now pirates are attacking, I have no fleet, and I lost yet another ship along with a valuable leader. What a fuggin start.
Post by: Shadowlord on October 29, 2016, 01:59:52 pm
Shit, I just got ion thrusters.
Maxim 24 (http://ovalkwiki.com/The+Seventy+Maxims+of+Maximally+Effective+Mercenaries): Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a big gun.
Ion thrusters are perhaps not sufficiently advanced.
Post by: Ultimuh on October 29, 2016, 02:01:15 pm
So he got Ion cannons?Shit, I just got ion thrusters.
Maxim 24 (http://ovalkwiki.com/The+Seventy+Maxims+of+Maximally+Effective+Mercenaries): Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a big gun.
Post by: Sirus on October 29, 2016, 02:15:37 pm
So I have an openly hostile empire on one side, two passive but very mighty forces on either side, and on my last side? Empty space with no habitable worlds. Also the piracy event triggered so I have some of those wandering around too. Hope my six corvettes are feeling lucky.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 29, 2016, 02:17:08 pm
Post by: Sirus on October 29, 2016, 02:25:25 pm
Just lost my new scientist. Was having him survey anomalies to try and gain experience (since I have no unexplored systems within range), and the anomaly spawned pirates that killed him almost instantly.
I don't want to be a quitter, but...maybe I oughta abandon this particular campaign. The game itself seems to want me defeated.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 29, 2016, 02:26:47 pm
Post by: Sirus on October 29, 2016, 02:28:09 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 29, 2016, 02:34:00 pm
Post by: umiman on October 29, 2016, 03:05:32 pm
The game is actually decent now that most of the disasterous game breaking bugs have been fixed.
There's still some idiocy here and there (precursor quests are impossible, sector AI is still stupid but not as bad as before, etc.) but at least now I can somewhat recommend the game.
Post by: Sirus on October 29, 2016, 03:08:08 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 29, 2016, 03:11:20 pm
Post by: Digital Hellhound on October 29, 2016, 03:12:41 pm
The lore was nice, though - it was the one that died from an empire-wide plague or somesuch.
Post by: umiman on October 29, 2016, 03:19:20 pm
And it's not even THAT amazing.
The giant monsters of the DLC have huge rewards though.
--------
By the way, here's something amusing that happened.
So the enclaves are generally pretty great. They all give very important benefits and so on. I was trading as usual with the artist guys and doing my usual galactic festival thing because the happiness boost is so frigging massive. However, this year they just randomly shut down the event and left without saying a word. And now they won't answer my calls and they've been ignoring me for about 10 years now.
So if Paradox really wanted me to hate some frigging prissy alien artists, they gave me a damn good reason. Because as soon as I'm done with these other threats I'm going to send their bloody space station into a goddamn black hole.
Post by: Sirus on October 29, 2016, 03:41:48 pm
Now it's a parry game as they attempt to blockade another, more established colony, while my fleet launches brief sorties into their systems in an attempt to draw the crusading fleet away. As this goes on, I slowly build up my mineral stocks and construct new ships. Unless I can match their numbers and/or trap them between a space station and my fleet, I don't know how else to fight them.
Huh. Immediately after I returned to the game, the crusaders went on a direct course for my homeworld's space station. My fleet was nearby, and together they smashed the crusaders. Not all of them died, but they lost far more than I did.
Post by: Flying Dice on October 29, 2016, 03:55:40 pm
Thing was, it apparently glitched and spawned it before I got all the artifacts, 'cause I had it surveyed and slapped down stations years before that.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on October 29, 2016, 04:03:18 pm
I had one precursor line that led me to a system with a ruined ringworld that gave a total of fifteen engineering research points split between three nodes.I would have considered it weird for a broken ringworld to spontaneously spawn somewhere. Perhaps all the quest did was point you to it, and it was meant to be present as an object from the get-go.
Thing was, it apparently glitched and spawned it before I got all the artifacts, 'cause I had it surveyed and slapped down stations years before that.
Post by: Sirus on October 29, 2016, 04:32:39 pm
The starved planet was re-colonized, and I plan to install a space station there. Maybe an FTL-snare station as well, since the Crusaders use hyperdrive and seem to need to pass through that system to hit the rest of my turf.
I encountered another empire on the opposite side of the Crusaders, which sucks. I only had the game generate one AI empire, but I guess these new mushroom dudes managed to achieve FTL on their own and are starting to expand. These guys are hyper-xenophobic Despots. Yay.
The new scientist somehow hasn't died yet, which is nice. She's 5-star now.
Other than that, life continues as usual in the Kingdom.
Post by: Flying Dice on October 29, 2016, 05:10:41 pm
The Precursor event chains that lead to systems spawn them in (or possibly reveal them on the map). That's why you see reports of people suddenly "noticing" unsurveyed systems deep in their territory well after they've surveyed it all, an AI empire has done something that spawned a system. The Cybrex chain spawns the ringworld system and gives you Living Metal, the First League chain spawns their home/capital system.I had one precursor line that led me to a system with a ruined ringworld that gave a total of fifteen engineering research points split between three nodes.I would have considered it weird for a broken ringworld to spontaneously spawn somewhere. Perhaps all the quest did was point you to it, and it was meant to be present as an object from the get-go.
Thing was, it apparently glitched and spawned it before I got all the artifacts, 'cause I had it surveyed and slapped down stations years before that.
Post by: Sirus on October 29, 2016, 06:33:02 pm
This time, after fighting off their initial attack (much easier thanks to an FTL lure and a space station; they fell straight into my trap), I did not offer a white peace. Instead, I counterattacked. My fleet attacked and destroyed the space station orbiting their only colony and bombarded the groundside defenses into rubble. I followed this up by sending my psychic warriors to seize control of the world.
The Crusaders, realizing that they could not match us in space or on the ground, surrendered. They were replaced by Spiritual Seekers with ethics matching my own, and became a theocracy. We are, for the moment, besties. I intend to parlay this victory into a long-term mutually beneficial relationship, so that any sour feelings they may eventually feel about being liberated can hopefully be outmatched by stronger good feelings.
Meanwhile, the Mushroom Despots have been doing pretty much nothing. As long as they don't bother me, I won't bother them.
Post by: Wiles on October 29, 2016, 07:03:16 pm
My angry awakened fallen empire neighbours have avoided going to war with me since I buddied up with my other not so angry awakened fallen empire neighbour.
That bought me time enough to terraform every single planet within my reach (even the garbage ones that I had avoided colonizing) so that I could boost up my fleet limit. On that note, does anyone know how to get enough energy to terraform planets into gaia worlds? I have the tech but the amount of energy you need is over my max energy cap and I'm pretty sure I've researched all the techs that boost it.
Unfortunately that left the Unbidden plenty of time to devour the empires on the other side of the galaxy. Sadly they don't seem to be working together or putting up any kind of fight. My Fallen Empire ally who claimed to side with me to fight the extra galactic invaders seems content to sit around and do nothing.
I've been sending my fleets into the Unbidden meat grinder, slowly wearing down their number of fleets. Unfortunately it has turned into a bit of a boring waiting game as I keep needing to replenish my fleet and that takes forever.
Post by: Sirus on October 29, 2016, 07:19:41 pm
Once I get alliances researched I'll probably go ahead and offer one.
Post by: umiman on October 29, 2016, 09:23:09 pm
Post by: Wiles on October 30, 2016, 12:11:50 am
I did get to close the portal though. After relentlessly throwing my fleets at it I finally managed to get to the portal before their reinforcements showed up. They still have a pretty large fleet but I think I'm going to leave them alone to keep my neighbours on that side of the galaxy weakened.
My Federation partner, the friendly fallen empire, keeps voting no on all the wars I propose so I think I'm going to have to ditch them if I want to progress any further.
edit: Had to abandon my game. Seems to be a bug right now where you can't leave a federation if you form one with an awakened fallen empire. So I was stuck doing absolutely nothing because I had explored, researched and colonised everything I possibly could. All that was left was expansion through wars, and I couldn't do that because the fallen empire would always vote no on wars.
Post by: Sirus on October 30, 2016, 04:12:40 pm
Post by: Mini on October 30, 2016, 04:51:07 pm
Post by: Sirus on October 30, 2016, 05:11:22 pm
The worst thing was, the ship didn't explode right away. There was about a half-month-long period in-between failure and destruction, during which she had already been given new orders.
Post by: Sirus on October 30, 2016, 06:43:27 pm
I discovered that one of my systems had a bunch of bronze-age people living on a planet in it. They prefer arid climates while I go for alpine, so if I can integrate them into my kingdom I've got prime colonizers for planets that my own dudes won't touch. Even better, they share my ethics exactly so we'd probably get along almost perfectly. However, it will take a ludicrously long time to enlighten them plus another 30 years or so for them to go from Protectorate to full-fledged member, and if I'll lose a colony for all that time I'd almost rather not bother.
Post by: Teneb on October 30, 2016, 06:47:12 pm
Alright, here's a question. What happens if you enlighten a primitive civilization that lives in a system where you have a colony? Do you lose your colony? If so, what happens to the people and buildings on it?You'll keep your planet. And remember that protectorates give influence.
I discovered that one of my systems had a bunch of bronze-age people living on a planet in it. They prefer arid climates while I go for alpine, so if I can integrate them into my kingdom I've got prime colonizers for planets that my own dudes won't touch. Even better, they share my ethics exactly so we'd probably get along almost perfectly. However, it will take a ludicrously long time to enlighten them plus another 30 years or so for them to go from Protectorate to full-fledged member, and if I'll lose a colony for all that time I'd almost rather not bother.
Post by: amjh on October 30, 2016, 06:50:17 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on October 30, 2016, 08:10:19 pm
Ugh. I want to do a peaceful-ish run where I assimilate people all friendly-like and build a federation, but the entire game appears to be built so that anything other than going full 40Klike PURGE THE XENOS PURGE THE HERETIC PURGE THE MUTANT is a total pain in the ass. *sigh* More mass-murder it is. Different ethos? PURGE. Alien? PURGE. Alien I intentionally suborned? PURGE. Wrong hair color? PURGE. Unhappy? PURGE. Unhappy because of all the purging? PURGE.
Post by: IronyOwl on October 30, 2016, 08:43:39 pm
Post by: Descan on October 30, 2016, 10:25:00 pm
and basically if you already control something (a station or a colony) once you uplift something, you'll continue to control it
if a resource hasn't had a station built on it by then, then whoever builds it first controls it (i.e. just cuz it's their home system doesn't mean any station you build will fall to their control)
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on October 30, 2016, 11:13:43 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on October 31, 2016, 12:26:56 am
Just get your colony going and drop stations on all the system resources. It'll turn into your vassal/protectorate's territory, but you'll keep all your holdings.XENOS
Ugh. I want to do a peaceful-ish run where I assimilate people all friendly-like and build a federation, but the entire game appears to be built so that anything other than going full 40Klike PURGE THE XENOS PURGE THE HERETIC PURGE THE MUTANT is a total pain in the ass. *sigh* More mass-murder it is. Different ethos? PURGE. Alien? PURGE. Alien I intentionally suborned? PURGE. Wrong hair color? PURGE. Unhappy? PURGE. Unhappy because of all the purging? PURGE.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Cruxador on October 31, 2016, 12:33:53 am
Because everyone is willing to forgive everything they do and praise them for when they do release this DLC... So they try less... and less... and less...Now, that's just not true. Paradox gets talked to pretty straight by their fans, even on their own forums (which for many developers tend to be total hugboxes) for bad DLC, bad gameplay decisions, and (as in the case of plantoids) bad pricing. The response is generally "it is what it is, here's why it's not changing, but we're doing things differently in the future". At least with the project heads that I'm familiar with. And while not changing stuff is kind of a problem, that only really applies to the DLC itself, so their support policy isn't bad compared to other studios.
Meh sorry guys I was in an exceptionally bad mood.No worries mate, happens to everyone. Your viewpoint isn't necessarily invalidated by its emotional context, even though I do personally think that it's needlessly ungenerous.
Stellaris is one of the best 4x games of its type (Space) ever made."One of" makes that hard to argue, but still... It's a high claim. Best in what way? Accuracy? Distant Worlds reigns there. Balance and mechanistic challenge? AI? GalCiv2. Interesting factions and characters? Alpha Centauri takes the cake if you count that, but otherwise there's SotS and a pretty wide array of other things which are above it. I think Stellaris has the potential to be great, and I think that in time it will reach most of that potential, but even though it's a fun game in its current state, I wouldn't sing its praises to anyone too highly if they're not in it for the long term.
Alright, here's a question. What happens if you enlighten a primitive civilization that lives in a system where you have a colony? Do you lose your colony? If so, what happens to the people and buildings on it?The system and its influence area is hatched* in your empire's color and that of the primitives. You still control the same stuff you did before. I got a system that was triple-hatched once.
*As in the diagonal lines used in cartooning for shading, not anything egg-related.
Post by: Neonivek on October 31, 2016, 12:37:12 am
It gets in the top 10... likely in 5th place. Though I think it doesn't really have a lot of competition which is the problem.
It took me a little bit to realize that there is a surprising lack of 4x space games (you know the type) that are truly good. Endless Space is boarderline dull and it somehow is one of the good ones.
Post by: Cruxador on October 31, 2016, 02:18:15 am
Best as in "Overall a good, fun, and worthwhile game"Yeah, it gets into the top ten, but that's more or less just by default. 4x isn't a huge genre to begin with so when you narrow it down to one setting, you wind up with single digit numbers of games that are at all notable.
It gets in the top 10... likely in 5th place. Though I think it doesn't really have a lot of competition which is the problem.
It took me a little bit to realize that there is a surprising lack of 4x space games (you know the type) that are truly good. Endless Space is boarderline dull and it somehow is one of the good ones.
Post by: PanH on October 31, 2016, 02:45:28 am
Just get your colony going and drop stations on all the system resources. It'll turn into your vassal/protectorate's territory, but you'll keep all your holdings.Fanatic Individualist is actually the strongest ethos atm. You can forget about all ethics divergence and stuff with it.
Ugh. I want to do a peaceful-ish run where I assimilate people all friendly-like and build a federation, but the entire game appears to be built so that anything other than going full 40Klike PURGE THE XENOS PURGE THE HERETIC PURGE THE MUTANT is a total pain in the ass. *sigh* More mass-murder it is. Different ethos? PURGE. Alien? PURGE. Alien I intentionally suborned? PURGE. Wrong hair color? PURGE. Unhappy? PURGE. Unhappy because of all the purging? PURGE.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on October 31, 2016, 05:12:40 am
Ugh. I want to do a peaceful-ish run where I assimilate people all friendly-like and build a federation, but the entire game appears to be built so that anything other than going full 40Klike PURGE THE XENOS PURGE THE HERETIC PURGE THE MUTANT is a total pain in the ass. *sigh* More mass-murder it is. Different ethos? PURGE. Alien? PURGE. Alien I intentionally suborned? PURGE. Wrong hair color? PURGE. Unhappy? PURGE. Unhappy because of all the purging? PURGE.
For some strange reason, I think the problem might be with you. :D
Seriously though, there are plenty of techs and buildings that raise happiness and lower ethics divergence. Spiritualist and Collectivist might be your best bet. Pops are still going to be unhappy, but they'll come around.
My collectivist authoritarian-but-benevolent star empire got a bit darker than expected when I realized all my sector governors were building Mind Control Lasers in orbit of their worlds, but eeh, provincials, am I right?
Post by: etgfrog on October 31, 2016, 05:24:01 am
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on October 31, 2016, 09:03:15 am
Post by: Flying Dice on October 31, 2016, 09:09:48 am
I've fixed the idiotic "the more powerful you are, the more your vassals hate you" thing, but the whole process of uplifting/integrating/&c. is just a total pain in the ass compared to killing everything. It's the same end result, only it takes far more time and resources. It's not like terraforming and gene-modding aren't things you can do that are just flatly more effective than getting subject pops and hoping that they've got the right tolerances or traits.
I say this because all I'm trying to do is get a save to the endgame to do some weapons testing against real threats, but even if you're a fanatic xenophile with the other species happiness trait you're still going to have to conquer some idiots, and being a xenos-lover like that just means that when you do it's harder to deal with them (since they're inevitably xenophobic/spiritualist/militarist jackasses that won't get along), since you can't just purge them or sit below your target warscore while you sloooooooowly kill their pops with orbital bombardment.
:I
Post by: Wiles on October 31, 2016, 11:46:53 am
But yeah uplifting/integrating vassals takes forever. I'm not even sure how long it takes because I was never able to do it in my game, I had four protectorates but none of them ever reached the point where I could integrate them.
Post by: Majestic7 on October 31, 2016, 12:03:05 pm
Post by: amjh on October 31, 2016, 01:10:40 pm
Post by: Cruxador on October 31, 2016, 02:25:52 pm
Although this is kind of theory-crafting since I haven't played a vassal-centric game in the newest build.
Post by: Hanzoku on October 31, 2016, 02:26:53 pm
Ahahaha, glad I went to check in the wiki. I had wanted to form a Federation, but hadn't realized it would leave my foreign policy slaved to the incompetent AI 75% of the time. I'll just enjoy my alliance with my two rubber-stamping allies who are 100% A-OK with my massive empire growing larger by taking chunks out of my southern neighbors.
Post by: Biowraith on October 31, 2016, 02:49:20 pm
Ahahaha, glad I went to check in the wiki. I had wanted to form a Federation, but hadn't realized it would leave my foreign policy slaved to the incompetent AI 75% of the time. I'll just enjoy my alliance with my two rubber-stamping allies who are 100% A-OK with my massive empire growing larger by taking chunks out of my southern neighbors.
The wiki is a bit out of date there; one of the major updates changed Federations so that members now vote on wars instead of the President making all the decisions for everyone. Votes have to be unanimous so you can just veto any war you're not interested in, although it does mean when you want to start a war you sometimes have to throw the AI a wargoal bone or two to get them to vote yes (rather than just wait til your turn as President in the old system).
Post by: Wiles on October 31, 2016, 02:56:30 pm
Post by: amjh on October 31, 2016, 03:06:35 pm
Post by: Sirus on October 31, 2016, 03:18:18 pm
The ethics divergence is easily the least significant of the real problems, though. I can deal with pops being unhappy because I purged and they're xenos-loving traitors, I just resettle them onto a useless border world or purge them.Question: why not engage in wars of liberation? Replace the xenophobic militarist leaders of your enemies with ones that see your point of view, then become besties with them until they decide to join up with you. The pops won't necessarily change, but that's what propaganda and divergence-reducing stuff is for.
I've fixed the idiotic "the more powerful you are, the more your vassals hate you" thing, but the whole process of uplifting/integrating/&c. is just a total pain in the ass compared to killing everything. It's the same end result, only it takes far more time and resources. It's not like terraforming and gene-modding aren't things you can do that are just flatly more effective than getting subject pops and hoping that they've got the right tolerances or traits.
I say this because all I'm trying to do is get a save to the endgame to do some weapons testing against real threats, but even if you're a fanatic xenophile with the other species happiness trait you're still going to have to conquer some idiots, and being a xenos-lover like that just means that when you do it's harder to deal with them (since they're inevitably xenophobic/spiritualist/militarist jackasses that won't get along), since you can't just purge them or sit below your target warscore while you sloooooooowly kill their pops with orbital bombardment.
:I
Post by: Baffler on October 31, 2016, 03:39:53 pm
And so the Kingdom loses a THIRD science vessel+scientist to RNG. After failing a special project, everyone on the ship went insane and killed each other, destroying the ship in the process. Say good-bye to my nearly 4-star scientist who was going to examine a special homeworld soon.
The RNG seems to be particularly sadistic with this event. I've rolled it at least a dozen times and I've literally never had anything but this happen to them. Even when the chance of failure is in the single digits, they still went insane and killed each other. At least if you reassign the scientist during that ~30 day period after failing the event they can escape being killed.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on October 31, 2016, 05:34:08 pm
Post by: BFEL on November 01, 2016, 01:32:18 am
The one that always gets my science ships is the one where it disappears, then reappears as two different ones.I had this recently and killed the second one, just to be safe.
I'm still new with the game, but it seems the extra research you get from expansion is enough to counter the tech penalty. You need more planets and stations to increase naval capacity, so they seem necessary to increase the "relative strength" calculated by the game against other empires. And you need high "relative strength" to get others to do what you want, even if they are your friends.SORTA.
Recently playing a "don't colonize at all" game and the tech boost is fucking absurd.
Basically how it works is you have to think of it like fractions.
Its pretty much impossible for you to deck out EVERY planet you grab with 80% science labs, but its not TOO horrendously hard to do it with your capital.
So yeah, crazy tech times.
Post by: TempAcc on November 01, 2016, 06:29:15 am
So, bugged event, or something?
Post by: IronyOwl on November 01, 2016, 08:14:33 pm
Maybe in another eight months and two patches the game will be able to handle the concept of a "quest chain." It's a pretty sophisticated, cutting edge concept, though, so I can understand it taking a while.
Post by: Cruxador on November 01, 2016, 08:54:32 pm
Speaking of bugged events, I finally completed a Precursor quest chain! But, you know, their homeworld had already been surveyed by another empire so nothing happened. I'm not sure if that's better or worse than just not being able to find enough precursor anomalies to get that far.While quest chains in general might be still a ways over the horizon, the precursor events specifically are on the short list for the next patch, which was inserted between Heinlein and Banks in the latest Dev Diary (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-50-the-journey-ahead.978042/).
Maybe in another eight months and two patches the game will be able to handle the concept of a "quest chain." It's a pretty sophisticated, cutting edge concept, though, so I can understand it taking a while.
Post by: Majestic7 on November 02, 2016, 02:39:33 am
Post by: GiglameshDespair on November 02, 2016, 11:10:40 am
We're totally researching, guys, not just pissing about.
Post by: Sirus on November 02, 2016, 11:29:22 am
Post by: GiglameshDespair on November 02, 2016, 12:36:10 pm
Are you using that mod? The one where you can deliberately set your people up as gods or guardians?Nope, no mods.
Post by: Hanzoku on November 02, 2016, 01:47:27 pm
Aside from build time, is there any reason NOT to just send fleets composed of only battleships at enemies? Destroyers and cruisers just sort of melt in fleet battles, and don't seem to do a lot of damage in return.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on November 02, 2016, 02:21:46 pm
Aside from build time, is there any reason NOT to just send fleets composed of only battleships at enemies? Destroyers and cruisers just sort of melt in fleet battles, and don't seem to do a lot of damage in return.
Strangely enough, when I've sent fleets with a good amount of each ship type into battle, it's the cruisers and destroyers that survived the most/longest. My corvettes died when the enemy looked at them, and my battleships seemed to attract enemy fire, but while they lived my cruisers and destroyers were totally fine.
I imagine it had something to do with targeting preferences/ship class behavior, but hell if I know. Also, I realize this doesn't answer your question at all. Hm.
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 02, 2016, 02:32:58 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 02, 2016, 02:37:26 pm
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 02, 2016, 02:40:29 pm
Post by: Hanzoku on November 02, 2016, 02:59:05 pm
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 02, 2016, 03:02:17 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 02, 2016, 03:05:58 pm
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 02, 2016, 03:10:42 pm
Post by: Baffler on November 02, 2016, 03:12:17 pm
Post by: umiman on November 02, 2016, 03:13:56 pm
1. Leaving invasion fleets undefended.
2. End game threats leaving constructors undefended.
3. Preventing enemy fleets from warping.
Also they soak a lot of fire. I'd rather replace 10 corvettes than 2 cruisers.
By the way, if you guys aren't sure what weapons are good in the new patch, there's a huge amount of Reddit posts taking about it. But tl;dr:
1. Plasma is best. Except against shields.
2. Kinetic is good overall.
3. Giga Cannon and artillery is great.
4. Energy Torpedoes are good against shields. (If I remember correctly) They're also immune to PD btw.
5. Lances are worthless.
6. Everything else is meh.
Post by: Neonivek on November 02, 2016, 03:51:55 pm
Huge fleets do not do well with short range weaponry... But are the ones who can make long range into the far better option.
Post by: Flying Dice on November 02, 2016, 04:37:06 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 02, 2016, 05:21:41 pm
My personal stance is that guided weapons in space is pure stupidity, but they do, in fact, have a dedicated torpedo carrier hull, specifically to create large amounts of disposable high-alpha torp boats. Point defense can still stop basically all of them.Wait what? The way I look at it guided weapons would be the only useful weapons in space. Doesn't matter how fast something is going, if you're far enough away it should be trivial to dodge it (or if you can't sense it, just move at random and hope you dodge it).
Post by: Flying Dice on November 02, 2016, 05:25:51 pm
Post by: Retropunch on November 02, 2016, 06:39:27 pm
That being said, I'd assume most future space warfare would just be lobbing bits of metal/rock at things that are stationary/can't move fast and using drones with an explosive payload on anything else. Lasers are a hypothetical, but only if you could basically rake massive areas of space with them, which would require a ridiculous amount of power.
Space is BIG.
Post by: Teneb on November 02, 2016, 06:50:48 pm
Lasers are a hypothetical, but only if you could basically rake massive areas of space with them, which would require a ridiculous amount of power.Aren't there laser "weapons" already? I say "weapons" because AFAIK they're only used to shoot down missiles.
That said, yeah, space warfare is pretty hard to imagine. Which is why I just give nearly all sci-fi space battles a pass as long as they look cool. If I was to speculate though, it might involve the conflicting spacecraft to close in on each other like ships-of-the-line of some centuries back.
Post by: Retropunch on November 02, 2016, 07:06:19 pm
Lasers are a hypothetical, but only if you could basically rake massive areas of space with them, which would require a ridiculous amount of power.Aren't there laser "weapons" already? I say "weapons" because AFAIK they're only used to shoot down missiles.
That said, yeah, space warfare is pretty hard to imagine. Which is why I just give nearly all sci-fi space battles a pass as long as they look cool. If I was to speculate though, it might involve the conflicting spacecraft to close in on each other like ships-of-the-line of some centuries back.
The USS Ponce is currently deploying a pretty impressive laser system to target fast attack craft. There are no missile defense lasers really - there's some ideas behind blinding and the like, but it's all a bit theoretical.
I don't really believe spacecraft would be closing in on each other in space for a face off. Again, space is REALLY, REALLY BIG - there's absolutely no reason to get even vaguely near something unless you want to. More than that, the laws of physics (as we know them) wouldn't allow you to 'face off' against an opponent in a ships-of-the-line way, the nearest you'd get is hurtling past each other. You could set that up, but with how big space is, I don't see any reason to do so.
More than that, the distances involved would make predicting enemy movement extremely difficult, so anything other than an insanely huge laser rake, or guided drones would be useless.
The only theoretical possibility would be to stop planetary bombardment. However, if that was the case, you'd probably just send the equivalent of hundreds of spaceflight capable drones up to kamikaze anything coming your way.
Post by: Teneb on November 02, 2016, 07:09:55 pm
-snip-I'll concede on this. Frankly, other than knowing space is really damn big, I don't know that much about it. Really wish governments funneled more money into space exploration though.
Post by: Flying Dice on November 02, 2016, 07:27:19 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 02, 2016, 07:44:47 pm
And if you want to say "sure, but the targeted fleet could just move somewhere else", the same is true for any other space weapon system you could imagine.
Post by: Retropunch on November 02, 2016, 07:59:26 pm
The main problem with drones/missiles is, I would think, carrying enough fuel to stay on target across non-trivial ranges. If you're just fighting in orbit, sure, but even Earth-to-Luna-orbit size areas would be questionable.
Yeah, it'd be impossible to have anything approaching space warfare with anything like tech we have now (other than against stationary/orbiting structures) as manoeuvring costs just too much fuel to be feasible. When most rockets leave earth they're basically pointed towards what they're going to and that's about it - making constant changes to speed and direction would use an incredible amount of fuel.
You'd also be starting at a significant (think again how big space is) distance, and need to be able to close that distance on top of everything else. As we'd at least be at a tech stage of orbital shipyards by this point in our thought experiment, there would be no reason for us not to use the best engine we have for everything as we don't have to contend with gravity or anything like that. Therefore, your missile/drone would somehow have to have a substantially better engine than what it was trying to catch.
On top of all of that you've got gravity to contend with (which can be a big issue near big planets) and all sorts of other interference.
However, I don't think we should ever underestimate humanities ability to blow each other up, so I well imagine we will find a way.
Post by: Retropunch on November 02, 2016, 08:07:45 pm
Launch drones/missiles in the general direction of the enemy, boosters trigger when they get within something resembling a short range? Assuming they use propulsion systems roughly similar to those of the spaceships, they ought to have much higher acceleration than manned ships.
And if you want to say "sure, but the targeted fleet could just move somewhere else", the same is true for any other space weapon system you could imagine.
Higher acceleration would only help if both targets were stationary from the outset - as there's no gravity/drag, as soon as something is going at x/mph it stays going at that speed. More than that, as you're waiting for light bounce back, you'd have a very hard time predicting where your target is or the direction they're heading. This can obviously be accounted for by resources (launch 360,000,000 drones and you're going to get one or two in the right direction) but they'd still have to adapt their flight path on 'late data'.
And as to your second point - that is what I'm saying! Space warfare just isn't feasible and won't be for a significant amount of time - and I doubt it'll ever be like games/movies.
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 02, 2016, 08:10:07 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on November 02, 2016, 08:17:56 pm
I guess the most likely space conflict would be an isolated incident involving a ship commandeering supplies from an immobile space station. But that's not so much a conflict in itself as something that could spark a war on the ground.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 02, 2016, 08:18:26 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on November 02, 2016, 08:35:23 pm
So, I'm seeing that the "one planet" challenge isn't a viable option? Any ideas on this?Try one of those Ringworld starter planet mods.
Only control one system, but should have whatever resources you would need, should you colonize all parts.
Not sure if the mod I'm thinking of is outdated though.
edit: Yep. Definitively outdated. (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=681864454)
Post by: umiman on November 02, 2016, 08:38:59 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on November 02, 2016, 08:43:23 pm
Updated version from the comments: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=717498014Ah yes.
I should probably subscribe to it myself.
The "12 habitable segments" starter system is what you want for a 'relatively' easy 1 system challenge.
You don't really need much else, unless you are planning to get certain strategic resources, which might or might not spawn on any of those segments.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 02, 2016, 09:19:53 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on November 02, 2016, 09:54:08 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on November 02, 2016, 10:16:23 pm
...speaking of which, did their fleet design update do what it was supposed to at all? I kept hearing the term "RPG classes" but it still feels mostly like glomming together blocks of ship. The module clarification/overhaul was nice, but I'm not seeing a lot of torpedo capital killers or destroyers screening for anything.
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 03, 2016, 12:49:22 am
Launch drones/missiles in the general direction of the enemy, boosters trigger when they get within something resembling a short range? Assuming they use propulsion systems roughly similar to those of the spaceships, they ought to have much higher acceleration than manned ships.
And if you want to say "sure, but the targeted fleet could just move somewhere else", the same is true for any other space weapon system you could imagine.
"If" you ended up within one tenth of a light second of another vessel (and dear Hel is that a big 'if'), then a relativistic weapon (such as a laser, ion, particle beam or other near c device) would be near enough to instantaneous to successfully strike its target, a guided weapon on the other hand is extremely unlikely to be moving at any reasonably measurable fraction of c, and will not strike its target as the time to target is beyond any real engagement range.
The most practical application of drones/guided missiles in space would be for defending static emplacements, where you can control the engagement range, in any kind of space battle that involves movement they become completely useless except as 'maybe' a way to control your opponents movement.
But at that point you should kill your admirals and R&D people, because they're going to bankrupt you.
*Edit: Aaannd I just realized that I restated what Retropunch just said, albeit in a less verbose manner. Great job me. ::)
Post by: Retropunch on November 03, 2016, 05:45:46 am
*Edit: Aaannd I just realized that I restated what Retropunch just said, albeit in a less verbose manner. Great job me. ::)Verbose!? ME!? I think it is absolutely compunctuous that you accuse me of being a long-winded lout! Sir/Madam/Internet Person, you are a vagabond and a scoundrel, to the duelling green!
:D Good points NFO, there's also a strategic problem that you'd basically be fighting blind. If you were able to fight at any distance that allows you to engage targets against their will (in terms of, not having to say 'lets meet at exactly here at this time') you'd not be able to see if you'd had a hit or miss for a significant amount of time. This would make any sort of meaningful ship to ship warfare pretty much impossible.
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 03, 2016, 07:03:07 am
I'm fairly certain that space warfare will eventually be a thing, but you are certainly right that with existing and near future systems the viability of space battles is fairly close to nil.
Post by: Shadowlord on November 03, 2016, 08:23:56 am
Spoiler: space war is not stellaris (click to show/hide)
Stellaris acts like your standard sci-fi game/movie, where you don't enter orbit and obey physics so much as ignore it to fly directly to wherever you want to go, because people think space physics is too confusing for audiences to understand or something?
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 03, 2016, 08:41:44 am
See: Planetary Annihilation
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 03, 2016, 11:05:10 am
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on November 03, 2016, 11:32:53 am
is this a bug anyone else has experiences, or is this normal behavior? Somehow I've only ever gotten the Unbidden before and they rapidly ate up surrounding space after appearing.
Post by: Rolan7 on November 03, 2016, 12:01:02 pm
5. Lances are worthless.Awuh, lances are awesome though. I need to replay Freescape 2 sometime... Now there's a "war in heaven". Stuck in a dinky fighter-bomber as the capital ships joust. (though naturally you have to tip the fight with dogfighting and precision strikes)
Post by: Shadowlord on November 03, 2016, 12:27:27 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on November 03, 2016, 01:48:11 pm
I deal with normal people every day. The general populace considers understanding even Aristotelian Physics a mental feat.Spoiler: space war is not stellaris (click to show/hide)
Stellaris acts like your standard sci-fi game/movie, where you don't enter orbit and obey physics so much as ignore it to fly directly to wherever you want to go, because people think space physics is too confusing for audiences to understand or something?
Newton is way too hard for the average man.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 03, 2016, 01:55:24 pm
EDIT: Which is to say that, yes, physics is hard!!!
EDIT: COADE is a fun game to be sure, but I imagine it could get tedious on a massive scale. However... It would be interesting to see hundreds of ships battle it out in an relativistic way.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 03, 2016, 02:12:05 pm
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 03, 2016, 02:16:06 pm
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on November 03, 2016, 03:38:54 pm
Post by: Teneb on November 03, 2016, 04:13:37 pm
Spoiler: Reposting because people like that (click to show/hide)
Post by: umiman on November 03, 2016, 04:19:49 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 03, 2016, 04:26:01 pm
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on November 03, 2016, 04:54:33 pm
Well, spawning additional artifacts is a step in the right direction. Now they just need a way to make events empire-unique.
Or just make it so scanning a planet strange to you, but previously scanned for someone else, is exactly the same as scanning a truly virgin world. Otherwise, about midgame, science vessels do nothing, or hover by cities increasing their science.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on November 03, 2016, 05:19:29 pm
Post by: Retropunch on November 03, 2016, 06:36:32 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on November 03, 2016, 07:58:28 pm
They should really have an anomaly generation system in general, not just for precursors. Otherwise, as you say, science vessels run out of interesting things to do and become slotless buildings. They already try a bit with vessel-required events and battle debris, but anomalies have a lot more range to them at the moment.Well, spawning additional artifacts is a step in the right direction. Now they just need a way to make events empire-unique.
Or just make it so scanning a planet strange to you, but previously scanned for someone else, is exactly the same as scanning a truly virgin world. Otherwise, about midgame, science vessels do nothing, or hover by cities increasing their science.
That said, the whole system badly needs an overhaul. I heard it was intended to be a Star Trek minigame, which is a brilliant idea, but spamming "Leave Be For Now" because there's no point risking failure when you can just wait to hit level 5 is not very Star Trek like.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 03, 2016, 08:03:45 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on November 04, 2016, 12:38:10 am
"Captain's Log. Stardate: 2261... We have... ENCOUNTERED... an extremely interesting... but deadly... species of pre-sentients... we have... DECIDED... to leave them... until we've achieved... our... dreams. Kirk out."UPLIFT UPLIFT UPLIFT says karnewarrior.
I love having multi species empires. It just feels so right.
Post by: IronyOwl on November 04, 2016, 02:02:49 am
I do wish pops were a little more fluid, though. I totally appreciate the simplicity of keeping them as discrete, relatively static units, but I find the way planets clog up rather unfortunate.
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 04, 2016, 05:57:16 am
Post by: TempAcc on November 04, 2016, 06:47:33 am
Post by: Sirus on November 04, 2016, 06:51:21 am
Also how famine, bombardment and natural disasters can't wipe out a planet's population, you can't sterilize pops but keep them alive (short of slavery with reproductive rights disabled) yet somehow you are able to exterminate a pop even if that would cause the planet to become uninhabited (surely the last pop would take issue with self-extermination?). And it really, really is unfortunate that the cloning tanks do not let you clone pops :<Hold on, since when does famine and bombardment not kill pops? I lost a colony once, it was being bombarded enough that the pops couldn't grow food. One day, every pop on the planet just...vanished. The enemy didn't capture it, it simply reverted to being an uninhabited world.
Also the famine modifier stuck around until I eventually recolonized. Was worried that the new pops would just instantly die >_>
Post by: Flying Dice on November 04, 2016, 08:48:07 am
Post by: sprinkled chariot on November 04, 2016, 09:26:32 am
Post by: Sirus on November 04, 2016, 09:55:26 am
The vanilla odds of a pop dying from bombardment are vanishingly low if you're trying to kill them all off. Usually the enemy will surrender before you get to that point.Yeah, but this was 3 or 4 pops dying all at the same time and starvation was in effect. Either I got unbelievably unlucky with bombardment rolls or something screwy was going on.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on November 04, 2016, 11:25:07 am
Well, spawning additional artifacts is a step in the right direction. Now they just need a way to make events empire-unique.It does say that the anomaly is generated in your space. So at the very least it is less likely to get scanned by someone else.
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 04, 2016, 05:14:36 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 04, 2016, 05:34:42 pm
I'd say it was particularly horrid luckThe vanilla odds of a pop dying from bombardment are vanishingly low if you're trying to kill them all off. Usually the enemy will surrender before you get to that point.Yeah, but this was 3 or 4 pops dying all at the same time and starvation was in effect. Either I got unbelievably unlucky with bombardment rolls or something screwy was going on.
Post by: jocan2003 on November 05, 2016, 04:23:57 am
...
1) Build enough corvettes to take on a fallen empire
...
I see that their brilliant idea to fix corvette stacks didnt work that well....
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on November 05, 2016, 04:54:16 am
I don't know what their brilliant idea was, but if it wasn't area-affecting weapons, it was doomed to fail....
1) Build enough corvettes to take on a fallen empire
...
I see that their brilliant idea to fix corvette stacks didnt work that well....
Post by: sprinkled chariot on November 05, 2016, 05:30:24 am
Post by: Flying Dice on November 05, 2016, 06:52:13 am
It worked, mostly. They melt like butter in a blast furnace.I don't know what their brilliant idea was, but if it wasn't area-affecting weapons, it was doomed to fail....
1) Build enough corvettes to take on a fallen empire
...
I see that their brilliant idea to fix corvette stacks didnt work that well....
Post by: etgfrog on November 05, 2016, 10:06:29 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 05, 2016, 10:45:53 am
It worked, mostly. They melt like butter in a blast furnace.
Pretty much, yeah. With the addition of tracking, corvette spam is a thing of the past now. Tracking is subtracted straight from evasion, so for small weapons that's 50%~ taken off of evasion. Less for medium and large, of course, unless you're fielding missiles because missiles have a flat 70 Tracking score. Except for torpedeos which have only 0% tracking.
Long story short, corvettes work well against enemies that field mostly Medium or Large weaponry due to their high evasion. They'll die in a couple hits but have a high chance of dodging those low tracking, medium accuracy attacks. Unless they're up against 8M Plasma Cannon Cruisers, but nothing beats 8M Plasma Cruisers so it's no fault of their own. Against enemies with Small weaponry, that 60~80% evasion is going to plummet to 20% or so and small weapons generally have good accuracy too. So they can be countered with Corvettes of your own, or Destroyers packing small weaponry and their unique +Tracking computers. It's nice and balanced now.
The only problem I have with the current roles that the ships are in is that you don't start with all of them at or near the start of the game. Combat is obviously supposed to go Corvette < Destroyer < Cruiser < Battleship < Corvette, but that doesn't work until you reach end-game and get large enough Space Stations. So for most of the game you're going to be rolling with Destroyers and/or Cruisers because that's the best combination. You won't face Battleships that will threaten your fleets and force you to mix things up. Unfortunately I don't think that it's something you can mod in. Not unless you want Level 7 Spaceports at the start of the game, to build these heavier ships. Hmmm... Though if you could nerf Space Station strength and slowly build it up with new technologies that could also be an option. You want that Level 7 Spaceport to be beatable in the early game after all.
I haven't seriously tried out missiles recently, but it seems way too easy to counter with corvette spam or with flak cannons.
Corvettes no longer have the option to mount PD, thanks to recent changes. And since missiles have 100% Accuracy and 70% Tracking across the board (except for Torpedeos), they are actually amazing against Corvette spam. Destroyers can mount a lot of PD for their size, so it's them you have to worry about. Especially since PD is a little too effective against missiles and fighters at the moment.
Post by: Sirus on November 05, 2016, 12:28:27 pm
I wonder if a massive corvette fleet could possibly overwhelm the creature...
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 05, 2016, 01:17:14 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 05, 2016, 01:22:30 pm
Post by: umiman on November 05, 2016, 01:49:51 pm
Well. Nothing like starting a new game in a nice big galaxy, only to discover a freaking Void Dragon practically on your doorstep. It's just inside my starting borders, so close that I have constant intel on it just from my homeworld's starting sensors.I defeated mine on the early late game with about 40k worth of ships with mostly level 4 plasma and giga cannons.
I wonder if a massive corvette fleet could possibly overwhelm the creature...
Barely took any losses.
I believe however that it is strong enough to fight 4 awakened Titans and win.
However, when you can finally defeat it, you'll be very happy it's right next to you. The reward is ludicrous.
-----
I actually had a more difficult time with the super jellyfish.
They move around too much.
Post by: Sirus on November 05, 2016, 02:11:05 pm
Post by: Cruxador on November 05, 2016, 04:31:56 pm
So, I found an anomaly. It's only level 1, but it has a 60% base failure rate. Even with a 5-star scientist it still has a whopping 30% fail risk. What the heck could be so dangerous?Find out and then tell us.
Post by: umiman on November 05, 2016, 07:06:50 pm
When I killed it I got these rewards.I actually had a more difficult time with the super jellyfish.Reward's more than worth it though.
They move around too much.
Also, when I killed the dragon (only done it once) the ONLY option I was given was the trophy one. I was a little miffed. I wanted my own goddamn dragon!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
----
Killing the super jellyfish gave like huge bonuses to research and I think lasers.
Post by: etgfrog on November 05, 2016, 07:11:47 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on November 06, 2016, 02:35:52 am
I once had 52% for an oddly colored toxic planet.So, I found an anomaly. It's only level 1, but it has a 60% base failure rate. Even with a 5-star scientist it still has a whopping 30% fail risk. What the heck could be so dangerous?Find out and then tell us.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Paul on November 06, 2016, 09:03:46 am
That extradimensional horror is really a horror. I had one show up right next to my home system in my latest game. I have lost so many ships to that thing. The worst was a weird situation where I won a war with a hostile neighbor who I was rivals with and it automatically ended the war and went back to borders being closed, and every single ship in his territory was popped into nowhere and then sent back to my homeworld automatically - and it wouldn't let me cancel or alter their flight plan at all. So I had to sit there and watch my entire fleet of 120 naval capacity and all 20 of my ground troops fly through the horror wormhole and die, with no way of telling them not to.
Then my other rival neighbor jumped in and stomped me because I was totally out of minerals from rebuilding ships in the previous war and had zero fleet, so he rolled in with his fleet (which was inferior to what I lost), wiped out all my starports, and stole several of my colonies.
Post by: IcyTea31 on November 06, 2016, 12:26:11 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 06, 2016, 01:41:48 pm
Guess I'll have to disappoint you. Critical failure, ship and scientist lost, absolutely no insight on just why the event was so friggin dangerous, and of course the anomaly disappears so I can't even try again.So, I found an anomaly. It's only level 1, but it has a 60% base failure rate. Even with a 5-star scientist it still has a whopping 30% fail risk. What the heck could be so dangerous?Find out and then tell us.
Not that this campaign is going particularly well anyway. I had a strong start, some good colonizable planets not far away...but now I'm hemmed in on all sides by people with opposing ethos to my own, with far more planets, and there just isn't much particularly interesting in my section of space other than the Void Dragon system.
asfhfhvbaljhsdvbglajsajf
The scientist I got to run my new science vessel? He got Arrested Development at level 3, which means he no longer gains XP. He is just about useless to me now, other than to do any special projects he can. Not gonna use a dude who can't level up for valuable surveying. Maybe I'll have him assist research until he dies and get a new scientist to survey for me.
Post by: IronyOwl on November 06, 2016, 02:54:39 pm
You can also just fire him if you feel like being mean. As opposed to asking whether he's dead yet in a cheerful tone every day, then deflating a bit when the answer is no.
Post by: Shadowlord on November 06, 2016, 03:52:05 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 06, 2016, 04:24:50 pm
If I just fire him, the influence used to hire him is wasted.
Post by: Sirus on November 06, 2016, 05:21:39 pm
In the space of a single war (which hasn't even gone on for very long), the enemy I'm fighting has progressed from Cruisers, to Battlecruisers and Carriers, to Battleships. Their other tech keeps upgrading as well and they have far, FAR more fleet capacity.
Meanwhile I have at best Battlecruisers, and those take so long to build I'm forced to send corvette swarms to hit their isolated mining stations while I struggle to build anything substantial. I have nothing that can take their fleets on and, despite having a bigger empire, my fleet capacity is inferior.
Post by: Descan on November 06, 2016, 05:36:05 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 06, 2016, 05:45:53 pm
I've found that swarms of torpedo corvettes are my best and cheapest hope. I can crank them out with relative speed, they have pretty good evasion, and all those fancy shields the enemy battleships have don't do much good against them.
Well, managed to fight the bastards to a draw, which is probably the best I could have hoped for. None of my worlds got invaded, though I did lose several space stations plus a bunch of infrastructure. Guess the smart thing to do will be to build up my strength and fortify the border with the empire that attacked me
Post by: IronyOwl on November 06, 2016, 06:15:50 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on November 06, 2016, 07:04:37 pm
Question that's been bothering me: Aren't torpedoes relatively useless against larger ships because they have no armor pen?The 100% shield pen is nice, and they've got high enough damage to still hurt even heavily armored targets. Still not nearly as good as laser spam, though.
Post by: Sirus on November 06, 2016, 07:08:02 pm
Question that's been bothering me: Aren't torpedoes relatively useless against larger ships because they have no armor pen?Maybe?
But considering all I had at the time were corvettes, torpedoes, and coilguns, I figured that hitting the big ships directly instead of trying to chew through the enemy shields first would give me the most bang for my buck. Came close to working, too; if I had had even three or four more corvettes I think I could have killed the enemy's 4-star admiral. But I couldn't even afford those three or four corvettes. Big ships and heavier firepower were out of the question.
Here's a question: I just got contacted by a bigger, meaner empire than the one I barely fought off and they want me to become their vassal. Is that basically a game over if I accept?
Post by: umiman on November 06, 2016, 07:10:40 pm
Question that's been bothering me: Aren't torpedoes relatively useless against larger ships because they have no armor pen?More or less.
It's why everyone spams plasma and kinetic (when there's no plasma).
As far as I'm aware, the only enemies worth using torpedoes on are the Unbidden since they're basically all shields. Everyone else doesn't have enough to justify it and they all love to stack armour. Since kinetic does good damage to both (and has huge range with the artillery versions) and plasma just owns armour, it's why everyone just uses those.
That being said, you shouldn't ignore shields yourself. I found that fielding ships with no shields at all to just lead to absurd losses. Not really sure why that is but that's been my experience.
Post by: Flying Dice on November 06, 2016, 07:44:55 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 06, 2016, 07:46:03 pm
Here's a question: I just got contacted by a bigger, meaner empire than the one I barely fought off and they want me to become their vassal. Is that basically a game over if I accept?
Technically no. It's only game over if they integrate you, which can only occur after 10~ years. So that's 10 years to tech up, rebuild your fleet and fight for a war of independence. Mind you, if the AI thinks you're weak enough that they ask for vassalage you... You might not have the strength to fight for independence even after rebuilding. So whether you accept or not is up to you. If you think you can fight them off once your fleet is rebuilt then go for it, so you have the breathing room to do so. Otherwise... Well. You're damned either way I suppose.
Post by: Sirus on November 06, 2016, 07:55:28 pm
My people are Pacifist+Xenophile+Spiritualist. Literally all of my neighbors are Militarist, Xenophobic, Materialist, or some combination of the above, usually one of them at Fanatic level. They also somehow managed to get nice clustered starts so they have 7 or so colonizable systems within easy reach.
Post by: umiman on November 06, 2016, 08:06:39 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 06, 2016, 08:21:25 pm
Post by: Cruxador on November 06, 2016, 09:30:46 pm
Post by: Paul on November 06, 2016, 10:42:56 pm
I started a huge galaxy game with nothing but advanced start AIs (normal difficulty), and one of my neighbors jumped on me early when all my minerals had been going toward stations and colony ships and planetary upgrades before I had a chance to build up a decent fleet. I had no minerals, but my mineral income was great.
So I traded a chunk of my mineral income for the next 30 years to every friendly empire I knew in exchange for all the current minerals they would part with. I traded up several thousand minerals and got all my spaceports churning out ships. I lost one spaceport in the buildup time, then completed a fleet equal to his (and over my limit) and hammered his with a swarm of missile corvettes. I knew he was rocking nothing but plasma with no PD after the loss of the spaceport, so I was confident sending in my missile armed, armorless, shield heavy corvettes. Due to plasma not being so great vs shielded corvettes, they wiped the floor with his fleet, losing only a third of my fleet power. I then went through and blew up all his spaceports. Now the big neighbor who tried to jump on me is paying me 25% of his income, more than I traded away - and after losses I was left with a fleet just barely under my limit to protect from my other unfriendly neighbors.
I also tend to trade away minerals for energy after I've built stations on every rock in my territory and end up with negative energy income and hundreds of mineral income. A lot of the AI seem to enjoy trading future energy for minerals 1:1 and I guess it's the way I play but I'm always short on energy income. But if I trade away 30 minerals and get 30 energy to power the 30 stations on 2 mineral rocks that otherwise wouldn't have been built I'm still gaining 30 minerals a month.
Post by: Wolock on November 07, 2016, 12:57:43 am
Post by: Paul on November 07, 2016, 07:35:57 am
I discovered the technosphere not too far from home. Once I got a lvl 5 scientist I helped it calculate infinity and received the +10 research point and the 10% bonus from the black hole system. It's a pretty huge bonus when you still at corvette level. Also I've explored half of my galactic arm and I'm still the lone spacefaring civ I know of and I'm stuck with only three habitable planets.
Did you turn your habitable planet chance down? The initial 3 planets are guaranteed by the way the game generates empires. Every empire gets at least two ideal worlds right next to them. If you turn the chance down you end up with those and hardly anything else.
The RNG can be crazy though. I have had games where there were no other good worlds nearby, and other games are insane. My most recent game has a 25 space gaia world 1 warp from my homeworld. I have had that before, but they always had the holy world thing - this is the first time I have actually been able to grab a 25 square perfect gaia with no tile blockers as my first colony.
Post by: TempAcc on November 07, 2016, 09:52:58 am
Post by: Sirus on November 07, 2016, 09:54:47 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 07, 2016, 09:59:07 am
...
You know what I haven't seen in forever? The space cows. Or whatever they were called. Before 1.3 you saw them every game, usually as your first encounter. Now? I haven't seen hide or tail of them.
Post by: TempAcc on November 07, 2016, 10:26:44 am
Pirates, however, seem pretty common in my games. I always get that pirate event in the early game, and usualy I end up finding a midgame tier pirate fleet some systems away from my capital. Space amoebas and void clouds are still around, too, but I haven't seen the crystals ever since the last update.
Post by: Draignean on November 07, 2016, 10:40:24 am
(No, expansions aren't mandatory, but there's always that thought of: "well, maybe the expansions would fix all those niggles I had the base game" [Again, like in SotS.] if I don't try them. )
Post by: Sirus on November 07, 2016, 10:58:50 am
Post by: Digital Hellhound on November 07, 2016, 11:00:23 am
Also, 80 USD, what the hell? I hope that's for SotS, because I don't know in what universe does Stellaris with expansions get anywhere near that.
Post by: Draignean on November 07, 2016, 11:19:05 am
Get it on sale. It's a nice game and getting better, but it's still lacking in quite a few things. I'm sure there'll be a sale at some point. Paradox loves sales.
Also, 80 USD, what the hell? I hope that's for SotS, because I don't know in what universe does Stellaris with expansions get anywhere near that.
SotS with all expansions is 10 bucks. That's one of the reasons I love it, I can buy it for people and guilt them into playing with me for as much as a lunch out.
*Minor fact checking later
80 Bucks was the package with all expansions and the nova edition. (70 USD for the standard edition, 90 USD for the galaxy edition)
More intelligent purchasing brings it to 50 USD (original game and the Leviathans DLC)
Post by: Knave on November 07, 2016, 11:37:39 am
https://www.greenmangaming.com/games/stellaris/ (https://www.greenmangaming.com/games/stellaris/)
Post by: umiman on November 07, 2016, 12:25:05 pm
If you can't wait and want to get it - GMG has it t 20% off. Definitely not the cheapest it's been, but it's better than full price, no?If you think that is a good price for you then go ahead.
https://www.greenmangaming.com/games/stellaris/ (https://www.greenmangaming.com/games/stellaris/)
But I would advise everyone here to try the unofficial demo first before buying it at its current state.
Post by: Paul on November 07, 2016, 03:53:04 pm
I enlightened a bronze age planet in the center of my empire. They became my protectorate, and the little circle around them became contested territory. I kept the mining stations there, but all the systems in it was marked as unowned. I didn't think much of it until my neighbor popped in and built a frontier outpost in the system (which has 2 of my colonies and the protectorate colony).
The result? The system is now contested by 3 empires, and him having that little blob of their own territory in the center of my empire gave them a big swathe of my territory. The borders that once looked like
X
___________
is now
X
/ \
___/ \____
And all the systems in that area along with all their stations now belong to my neighbor. Including a system with 12 points of science, a wormhole with another 5, a system with a 24 size planet that I was about 3 months away from completing terraforming, and my only source of pitharan dust. All that conquered by building a station without a shot fired while we have a nonaggression pact, and I'm the agreement breaking aggressor if I want to take it back.
I used console commands to destroy the station and closed my borders to him. Now my friendly neighbor is a bit pissed at me, but at least he can't do it again. Glad I'm not playing ironman.
Post by: Sirus on November 07, 2016, 04:05:49 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on November 07, 2016, 05:06:00 pm
Goddamn this game still sounds awesome. I know I asked a similar question earlier, but there I was directly relating it to to SotS (which is the best sci-fi 4x), now my question is, is it worth the ~80 USD to buy the game and expansions?If you're hankering this much, you'll probably enjoy it regardless of whether you also fly into a screaming rage about it or not. At least, that's been my experience.
(No, expansions aren't mandatory, but there's always that thought of: "well, maybe the expansions would fix all those niggles I had the base game" [Again, like in SotS.] if I don't try them. )
That said, it does go on sale often, so if you can wait six weeks you'll be able to get a better deal. On the base game, at least, dunno if the DLC has been out long enough.
Post by: Sirus on November 07, 2016, 07:19:40 pm
Post by: Paul on November 07, 2016, 11:29:21 pm
I had one game where it made Sol RIGHT by Deneb, which is funny given the lore.
Also found out that if two races share the same traits, portrait, and name - they are treated as the same race. So it is actually possible to create starts with multiples of the same race if you wanted to play out some kind of ideological war between the same species.
Post by: Wolock on November 08, 2016, 04:10:37 am
Post by: Retropunch on November 08, 2016, 12:25:00 pm
On a side note, warscore seems really, really rubbish. I was at war with a civ and was absolutely destroying them - they had pretty much no navy, and I took their capital planet - 22% warscore. I won every battle and destroyed pretty much everything I could see. Granted they had a big empire, but I only just managed to get it up enough to win some of my war goals after years of complete domination.
Post by: umiman on November 08, 2016, 12:36:43 pm
So I've gotten a planet as a wargoal and its in a system with planets belonging to another civ (the one I was at war with) - how can I take over that system without going to war with them again?Probably the only way is to wait for that planet to rebel or some other empire declares war on them and wants that planet to be liberated or something, then vassalize that planet and intergrate them 10 years after that.
Post by: TempAcc on November 08, 2016, 03:02:40 pm
Post by: Retropunch on November 08, 2016, 03:15:59 pm
I'm still kinda baffled there doesnt seem to be a way to ask for certain systems rather than planets as wargoals, not that I've seen anyway, altough I'm pretty sure I saw something like that in previous versions several months ago, and now I simply can't find the option somehow. Recently I've found the infinity machine in one of them but its in someone else's territory and there isn't a single planet nearby.
Yeah, it really doesn't make sense to just ask for planets. I get that it allows a bit more granularity and that the wargoals for systems would be necessarily higher, but the situation I'm in now kinda doesn't make sense.
I think the whole wargoal/warscore thing needs to be shook up as it just made no sense that I was absolutely destroying them in every single way, had invaded half their planets and took out all of their fleet, just so I could only just hit enough warscore to get two very measly planets. More than that, I had to play ping-pong with their 80 power fleets for about 20 years.
Previously it didn't work as you could just win a very slow war of attrition (I once won a war that I was hopelessly outnumbered in just by letting them come to my station/fortress nets), but this way seems way too difficult to work up the warscore. There should be a bit of an 'overwhelming odds' modifier, where they're just never going to be able to build up a fleet that can resist you no matter what.
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 08, 2016, 03:30:29 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 08, 2016, 03:54:20 pm
Wonder what they'll replace it with...?
Post by: IronyOwl on November 08, 2016, 04:17:19 pm
I assume ethics will now be essentially genetic and inviolate, but they might just make divergence more event/condition based rather than a formalized stat.
Post by: Flying Dice on November 08, 2016, 05:47:59 pm
Tie it to actual events and situations is what I'm saying. That would be really cool. Even better if you paired it with sector improvements and could split off sectors with their own core ethos. So, say you've got three planets that are really xenos-friendly from the above, and they also had an event pop with a religious revival after the discovery of some holy artifact or whatever, in your materialist and xenophobia state. Split off a sector, designate it as xenophilia and spiritualist, and the pops within are happy and productive. Appoint a sector governor who shares those ethos (because why wouldn't leaders have ethos?), give them a good deal of latitude. But then you discover you've been too generous and forgiving, the division is so deep that the people of that sector don't feel as if they have a place in your empire any more. Do you enact policies to shift your ethos on a broad scale and deal with similarly broad discontent for a while, or do you risk that sector rebelling and forming a new state?
I'd love to see stuff like that, and it's an example of how ethics divergence and sectors could be tools used to allow emergent stories to form, instead of being annoying piles of shit like they are now.
Post by: Retropunch on November 08, 2016, 06:43:33 pm
I'd be fine if it still existed but was tied to... y'know, actual things, rather than being a stat.
I completely agree - only issue with that is that it's difficult to monitor/it might just seem random unless it was constantly called out. Part of the problem is that you can end up with a pretty huge empire with tons of sectors - being able to have visibility of that divergence and the reasons why would be difficult to get across. Still I could see this working more at a sector level.
Mostly though, I found that the divergence just made the trait point genetic engineering stuff a bit useless. It takes an ungodly amount of soc research to convert enough of the population if you're quite ethically diverse.
Sectors generally are just rubbish though. Tying it to ethics and stuff is never going to improve it enough, as you're basically just losing control in what is really a very micromanage-y game.
Post by: Descan on November 08, 2016, 07:06:25 pm
Like the sector ethics thing works, add that plus have the AI manage WHEN it builds stuff but you tell it what to actually build. :U In what order.
Then you have the best of both worlds. You're not stressed by making sure to build stuff on time but you're still in control of "hey, dumbass, build minerals and energy BEFORE building ten thousand space stations"
Could even just have a queue you assign. Like "Build minerals on mineral deposits first, then energy, and then XYZ" and the AI tailors it to the planets it's been given, using the minerals and energy it has without hoarding them.
[I'd also like it if the sector AI would give it's minerals back to the player if it has nothing else to build and is just sitting on it. Like sure, keep a stockpile, but if you have 5k minerals in 4 sectors, that's wasted.]
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 08, 2016, 07:06:41 pm
Post by: TempAcc on November 08, 2016, 07:16:21 pm
Anyway, I also dislike that certain things just seem bound to happen as long as the prerequisites are in place, kind of like a certain pop in a certain planet ALWAYS seems to turn into another species and revolt against the regular species if you have the genetic manipulation techs unlocked. Like, it kind of always happens to me at least.
Post by: Retropunch on November 08, 2016, 07:24:06 pm
If it wants to be the first, then it could do with giving the player greater control, and sectors would just sort of keep upgrading/building and whatever whilst you did other stuff. As the game is now, I don't see why that would be a problem. Sure, you can get bogged down in over micromanaging if you want, but it'd just be a bit like Distant Worlds - you can intervene if you want, but it'll run itself without if you need.
If they go the second way, then sectors need to be pretty much a separate entity, which just follows your rules, policies and overall strategy without your direct input. At the moment, I don't think this is viable as it's too hands off for the micro of the game, but maybe with some changes it could be. For instance, one of the big changes earmarked for the future is food sharing between planets. Centralising things like that would take the pressure of sectors. Add in sectors maintaining a fleet (which you could requisition in war time) and they'd start to get useful. Sector based factions that matter, plus council sessions with sector leaders, and it'd start getting into the territory of something exciting.
Really though, I wish Stellaris would just make up it's mind where it sits. I'm happy with either (although I'd lean to the second) but at the moment it's just too clunky on so many levels.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on November 08, 2016, 07:50:45 pm
Post by: Teneb on November 09, 2016, 09:20:35 pm
Cue a few years of quietly researching until I get level 2 warp. I cross over to the next spiral arm, ready to see what leviathan stuff might be hiding there... and what do I find? A line of fanatic xenophobes stretching exactly the length of the area I can cross from my spiral arm to theirs.
I guess the game is telling me there will no such thing as allies or friends, and I need to prove there can be only a single stellar empire the hard way.
Or to just stay in my corner and away from this crazy galaxy.
Spoiler: damn xenophobes and their wall (click to show/hide)
Post by: sprinkled chariot on November 10, 2016, 03:56:06 am
Post by: Shadowlord on November 10, 2016, 08:17:12 am
Post by: Retropunch on November 10, 2016, 09:46:18 am
Even a system like moo2 would be trivial to add. Spies oppose each other, espionage just has a random chance to steal tech, sabotage has a chance to blow up a station or defense base or w/e. Doesn't let you specify targets.
Agreed. I'm hoping they completely revamp characters in Banks (I feel that might be what it's about in terms of espionage and characters), but even if they don't, a way to actually influence other empires without just giving them stuff or going to war would be nice.
Post by: Descan on November 10, 2016, 10:42:50 am
And more-over, if you're a democracy, have a choice between appointment of governors and elected governors, like your own ruler is elected.
That's just off the top of my head of ways to make sectors have a Purpose and also get internal politics that can be toyed with by spies. No idea if it'd be fun in practice.
Post by: TempAcc on November 10, 2016, 11:06:13 am
Right now diplomacy seems very limited since the only way to actively increase relations is to make deals.
Post by: Shadowlord on November 10, 2016, 11:28:11 am
Post by: Flying Dice on November 10, 2016, 02:25:25 pm
Post by: Draignean on November 10, 2016, 02:28:37 pm
2'1" tall green mushroom: "What? No, what the fuck are you talking about?"
7' bird wearing a portabella as a hat: "Yah, me neither. You want to go skateboards?"
Post by: sprinkled chariot on November 10, 2016, 02:30:38 pm
Post by: umiman on November 10, 2016, 02:33:56 pm
1. Passive observation = Watching them from space
2. Active observation = Kidnapping them to probe their many anuses
3. Uplifting them = Overly revealing yourselves to be better / superior / smarter / more guns / godlier than them, and then "guiding" them to becoming a spacefaring race.
Though I do also seem to remember some events talking about how our genetically modified agents got themselves elected or something.
Post by: Descan on November 10, 2016, 02:42:32 pm
Infiltration is where you have agents getting elected to then ask your government to annex the planet.
Post by: umiman on November 10, 2016, 03:13:54 pm
There's a fourth level, where it's infiltration to directly annex them as another world. Uplifting turns them into a vassal state, where you're all "And THAT'S how you harness the fifth level of energy..."Ah right, forgot about that.
Infiltration is where you have agents getting elected to then ask your government to annex the planet.
Post by: Teneb on November 10, 2016, 03:51:06 pm
Post by: Digital Hellhound on November 10, 2016, 03:57:15 pm
There are also several events like one of the infiltrators falling in love with a native and going rogue.
Brings a rather amusing image to mind when you're seven foot tall birb-people and they're two foot tall fungi.
The mental image created by these two together is captivating. Truly, love knows no boundaries.
Post by: Sirus on November 10, 2016, 07:36:10 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on November 10, 2016, 09:46:32 pm
I like to imagine EVERYONE in Stellaris is really fucking oblivious.
Infiltration mission on Sol 3 goes wrong...
'OK, so the perp was 7 feet, bright blue, and had four legs?' 'Yeah' 'God dammit, that's describing fucking everyone on the planet.
Maybe in the Stellaris universe, the SEP effect is a universal technology. A primitive mammal will subconsciously ignore the fact that its world's new Global Leader is a purple slug-thing because it, and every other member of its species, assumes that it is Someone Else's Problem.Either or both of these interpretations explain sector AI perfectly.
"Frank, you ever notice we produce 2.5 times as much food as we eat?"
"Can't say I do, Bill. Can't say I do."
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 10, 2016, 11:16:39 pm
It'd probably help if the other nations weren't so bland. In CK2/EU4 they're similarly wooden and unimpressionable, but that's modified by the fact that they're historic nations and you have the same starting position each game. So we have stuff like the 'Big Blue Blob' meme that livens them up and gives them some personality. But Stellaris has nothing of that going on. I wonder what would be the best way to give the AI nations some personality? In my finished game I had an event where a neighbouring nation had a scientist that wanted to investigate my holy cluster of stars. Having something like that, light, fluffy events that involve the other nation, might be an option to make them less interchangable and forgettable. Though unless you have a ton of events, it's going to get repetitive in the end. Hmmm...
Post by: Tiruin on November 11, 2016, 12:21:05 am
I've always wondered why sectors are so...inefficient. Or on why there's a giant leap in science capacity needed for every planet. :II like to imagine EVERYONE in Stellaris is really fucking oblivious.
Infiltration mission on Sol 3 goes wrong...
'OK, so the perp was 7 feet, bright blue, and had four legs?' 'Yeah' 'God dammit, that's describing fucking everyone on the planet.Maybe in the Stellaris universe, the SEP effect is a universal technology. A primitive mammal will subconsciously ignore the fact that its world's new Global Leader is a purple slug-thing because it, and every other member of its species, assumes that it is Someone Else's Problem.Either or both of these interpretations explain sector AI perfectly.
"Frank, you ever notice we produce 2.5 times as much food as we eat?"
"Can't say I do, Bill. Can't say I do."
Newbie question: I usually play with Fanatic Spiritualism (but Intelligent to get the 10% Materialist bonus), and I've been wondering if the Peaceful Bureaucracy is helpful with science (given that it gives +5 to 'core' planets, so that's a nice x/10 cap at the start and I don't like sectors).
Though I have forgotten--do planets in sectors contribute to that science capacity limit? (The number where you hover your mouse over and it displays the # of players and population over 10 being a % addition?)
Next is the question about late game crises:
...Is it feasible that one could survive with a 25% inhabitable system? I like playing small systems instead of delegating sectors (which are broken as far as I'm aware? :/) and wonder if my small # of planets (...5.) and a late game research workforce/military can aptly work.
...As an aside, I've always wondered if they'll fix the whole 'science ship in combat! Emergency FTL or any "Retreat" button press is a game crash!'
Which was imagined like:
"Doctor Heisenbrach! We have to leave! Our shields are falling and our hull is taking heavy damage!"
"Our equipment is too sensitive apprentice. If we warp out like that, severe instability issues will occur. It is inefficient."
"But ma'am, we will all die!"
"It is more stable if our ship explodes that way then."
And then I pressed "retreat" because the ship was too slow and under attack by a single station :v And then the game
Although I do love the option of sending science crews as scouts -- the leader can be 'recalled' into a newly made ship anyway and I can dismantle the distant ship. Especially if I've got a new model and goodness would it be hard to recall 'this one ship' just for refitting. :3
Post by: Powder Miner on November 11, 2016, 12:47:41 am
I'm gunning to be big stronk cash cash money freedomland, win the late game crisis, then call it a game
(I'm doin' the united nations)
Post by: Sirus on November 11, 2016, 07:58:24 am
My torpedo boat swarms were killing them faster than my main battle fleet since they could just punch straight through their defenses.
Post by: PanH on November 11, 2016, 09:56:08 am
Anyone know how to get shields on space stations? I just finished a bit of a nasty war with the same dudes I fought last time, and every orbital platform they had was shielded. Even the mining and research stations!You can edit stations model in the ship designor. You need to retrofit them afterwards but it's doable. I'll have to try next time.
My torpedo boat swarms were killing them faster than my main battle fleet since they could just punch straight through their defenses.
Post by: Teneb on November 11, 2016, 10:02:55 am
Post by: Ultimuh on November 11, 2016, 10:13:20 am
Pardon me for not copying and pasting this one, but new dev diary[url] is just achievements.
(https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-52-new-achievements.980632/)
How long do you think it will take, before anyone on these forums gains this particular achievement?
Quote
Suffer not the Alien: As a xenophobic empire, purge all other sentient species in the galaxy.
Post by: Sirus on November 11, 2016, 10:36:23 am
If you create a custom empire with a very weak species and have it set to spawn during new game setup, you should be able to find and purge them quite easily. With them out of the way you'd just need to hunt down and destroy all pre-FTL species.
Post by: Flying Dice on November 11, 2016, 03:10:40 pm
Pardon me for not copying and pasting this one, but new dev diary[url] is just achievements.To compensate, they did push a hotfix the same day they announced those.
(https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-52-new-achievements.980632/)
Post by: IronyOwl on November 11, 2016, 03:39:44 pm
Spoiler: Hotfix Notes (click to show/hide)
Notably:
I found that fielding ships with no shields at all to just lead to absurd losses. Not really sure why that is but that's been my experience.
Quote
* Fixed armor absorbing too much damage if the ship also had shields leftMystery solved!
Post by: umiman on November 11, 2016, 03:44:08 pm
Good catch IronyOwl.
Post by: Sirus on November 11, 2016, 10:19:55 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 11, 2016, 10:38:16 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 11, 2016, 10:40:13 pm
Even got a mod which makes it so that non-empire ships (wandering monsters, crisis enemies, etc) use the hyperlines as well.
Post by: umiman on November 11, 2016, 10:46:33 pm
Anyone else play with only hyperlanes???Yeah.
In fact that's how all my games are set up. While I generally like imbalance in my grand strategy games, this one just makes things confusing and weird for me. And I like how hyperlanes make it so there's actually some semblance of defensive lines.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 11, 2016, 10:49:58 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on November 12, 2016, 12:25:55 am
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 12, 2016, 01:11:24 am
Space Empires IV has a mode I like where there are no hyperlanes, so no FTL travel, until empires reach the midgame tech to start creating them. The AI... isn't great at it, though I did have a pleasantly horrible surprise where I opened the initial lane into a VERY militaristic solar empire, who had spent their time researching more "tactical" than strategic technologies :P
That sounds a lot like Aurora in some respects! I think that discovered hyperlanes would actually be an awesome additional to Stellaris.
Speaking of which, I'm desperately waiting for the Star Wars mod to update its map and ship packs :C
Post by: IronyOwl on November 12, 2016, 03:37:12 am
Same. I like the idea of different races having different forms of FTL travel, but I don't feel like it's handled well here.Anyone else play with only hyperlanes???Yeah.
In fact that's how all my games are set up. While I generally like imbalance in my grand strategy games, this one just makes things confusing and weird for me. And I like how hyperlanes make it so there's actually some semblance of defensive lines.
Post by: Tiruin on November 12, 2016, 04:00:51 am
Anyone else play with only hyperlanes???Pretty much me :P Makes it into a Sins of a Solar Empire-esque fashion.
[Hotfix Notes]-snip-They...didn't fix the science ship manual retreat crash? :-\
Also could anyone please help me with some questions I posted here ._. That would be great!
Post by: Sirus on November 12, 2016, 09:34:01 am
Post by: Tiruin on November 12, 2016, 10:04:33 am
Nope. I can't recall having any crashes. Might be something to do with your system.As in, when you've a science vessel with a leader caught in combat, then you press manual retreat (as in you live for the 30-ish days? :P), the game crashes?
Not sure where the crashlogs are stored, but if you can find them it may be an idea to go to the forums and drop them off there.
Also another bug (I've no idea but ;~;) wherein I'm a military dictatorship (I just want the giant ships :V) and my leader then dies. I check the screen and 'x' it (not picking abstaining or electing, but highlighting a leader out of the 2 eligible ones), and then swiftly change to the advanced government because I forgot.
...Now I'm stuck with an empty leadership and the icon is still there but unclickable (I can click on it and nothing happens :I). Waited a few months and now it's gone...actually 6 years into the game (14 years remaining until government change) and I still have no choice about the election.
And I only noticed that 2 months after the noted 'choice will be made'. :V Is it because I hired a new admiral before the date?
Arrghh these bugs :-\
Sorry Tir, I've never had that particular crash. My copy doesn't crash at all unless it's on start-up when I have a bad mod enabled :/Only mod I have is Beautiful Universe...because I want those steam achievements despite having to go through annoying ironman without any control over saves and stuff. >_<
And the system seems to handle itself quite well :/ if I can play Sins of a Solar Empire with a ton of stuff rolling in, this game could too--and it does. It just somehow crashes when that one science ship happens.
Post by: Retropunch on November 12, 2016, 11:44:08 am
I do find hyperlanes can make it a bit too easy though - if you've got a chokepoint with a fortress (with snare + mines) and decked out starbase it's pretty much impossible for the enemy to break through. Add a few carriers and fleet support units you can pretty much just trust it's going to be unbreakable.
Post by: kilakan on November 12, 2016, 12:00:02 pm
As for the science ship crash, I bet that's happening because science ships set to avoid hostiles try and flee themselves automatically as soon as it's able, and you clicking the retreat is most likely causing it to double-flee and break the game.
Post by: Retropunch on November 12, 2016, 12:07:30 pm
I also had the crash on manual retreat from science ships. Doesn't seem to make a difference what stance they're set at. Lost two ships to that as there was just nothing I could do :(
Post by: GiglameshDespair on November 12, 2016, 02:22:49 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on November 12, 2016, 02:53:52 pm
Is strike aircraft useful?
Do missiles still suck except against heavy shielded ai designs with no PD?
Post by: umiman on November 12, 2016, 02:56:10 pm
How is current weapon balance?1. Plasma is best. Except against shields.
Is strike aircraft useful?
Do missiles still suck except against heavy shielded ai designs with no PD?
2. Kinetic is good overall.
3. Giga Cannon and artillery is great.
4. Energy Torpedoes are good against shields. They're also immune to PD.
5. Lances are worthless. (They did just patch this so no idea if this is still true)
6. Everything else is meh.
Post by: Paul on November 12, 2016, 03:32:16 pm
A neighbor sent a fleet of primarily plasma corvettes after me which I countered with missile cruisers. 8k vs 10k and my fleet won with only a few losses. The shields regened almost as fast as they were depleted.
Post by: Flying Dice on November 12, 2016, 03:35:52 pm
Gonna do a new balance patch for weapons for this patch. The missile range + weaker PD stuff was interesting, but they still ultimately lost out because of the lack of penetration. Thinking I'm going to slightly decrease the armor pen from kinetics (but increase their shield damage), moderately decrease the % on all armor pen weapons, and... I'm not exactly sure how I'll handle missiles. Maybe keep the previous tweaks but increase RoF on the smaller ones. I like, conceptually, the idea of them being a mass-fire long-range niche, but with practically everything else carrying armor pen (and armor being such a god-stat otherwise) it's not workable.
Might instead give them partial shield penetration based on tier and size.
Post by: IronyOwl on November 12, 2016, 04:13:02 pm
Try starting up a game without Beautiful Universe, see if you get the same emergency FTL bug there. You shouldn't, but stranger things have been known to happen.Sorry Tir, I've never had that particular crash. My copy doesn't crash at all unless it's on start-up when I have a bad mod enabled :/Only mod I have is Beautiful Universe...because I want those steam achievements despite having to go through annoying ironman without any control over saves and stuff. >_<
And the system seems to handle itself quite well :/ if I can play Sins of a Solar Empire with a ton of stuff rolling in, this game could too--and it does. It just somehow crashes when that one science ship happens.
Then try verifying integrity of game cache (right click game -> Properties -> Local Files tab). In theory, that's the default way to fix something obviously broken with the game (meaning obvious to Steam, corrupted files or the like). You can also try that first if you don't want to bother testing the mod.
If that doesn't work you might try uninstalling and reinstalling it completely, though with your internet speeds... :'(
Is strike aircraft useful?In my regretful experience, no. I love the look of giant strike swarms, but PD is way too easy to get and they just bleed off damage too quickly against anything that has it. Plus they take considerably longer to reach the enemy than your longer-ranged weapon options.
They're not abysmally bad or anything, but I can't really recommend them as a default strategy.
Post by: Sirus on November 12, 2016, 04:24:54 pm
Of course, PD will shred them.
One nice thing I've seen from Scout craft is that they themselves serve as PD, shooting down enemy missiles long before they get close enough to serve as a threat to your ships.
Post by: Retropunch on November 12, 2016, 05:17:13 pm
Try starting up a game without Beautiful Universe, see if you get the same emergency FTL bug there. You shouldn't, but stranger things have been known to happen.
Then try verifying integrity of game cache (right click game -> Properties -> Local Files tab). In theory, that's the default way to fix something obviously broken with the game (meaning obvious to Steam, corrupted files or the like). You can also try that first if you don't want to bother testing the mod.
If that doesn't work you might try uninstalling and reinstalling it completely, though with your internet speeds... :'(
I tried verifying, and I don't use Beautiful Universe but I've still had the same problem unfortunately :( I wouldn't bother doing an uninstall + reinstall if you've verified, it's mostly the same thing from what I understand.
Post by: Powder Miner on November 12, 2016, 06:06:47 pm
Spoiler: it's not actually little at all (click to show/hide)
Post by: Tiruin on November 12, 2016, 09:30:46 pm
@Tiruin, I don't know about the goverment glitch you've gotten yourself into, is it possible to hold an emergency election? Or change government types to say, a 5 year democracy and then change back after a vote goes through?IN 14 years, yes. :P Because somehow you have to 'change the government with the 20 year cooldown' once you unlock the advanced governance types.
As for the science ship crash, I bet that's happening because science ships set to avoid hostiles try and flee themselves automatically as soon as it's able, and you clicking the retreat is most likely causing it to double-flee and break the game.
Also the science ship was set to passive because 'wow let's run because there's an enemy station I'll never touch on the way'. -_-
However the same holds true for BOTH when I had science ships in passive and evasive. :-\ (Although evasive usually blew up before that, because of obvious reasons :P)
@Tirun/Everyone,Woo, someone else who has the thingy with me :D
I also had the crash on manual retreat from science ships. Doesn't seem to make a difference what stance they're set at. Lost two ships to that as there was just nothing I could do :(
...Now to collaborate what even happened :I
Does anyone know the tech tree? As in visible tech tree rather than 'connect the artistic tech squares' on the wiki? :PHow is current weapon balance?1. Plasma is best. Except against shields.
Is strike aircraft useful?
Do missiles still suck except against heavy shielded ai designs with no PD?
2. Kinetic is good overall.
3. Giga Cannon and artillery is great.
4. Energy Torpedoes are good against shields. They're also immune to PD.
5. Lances are worthless. (They did just patch this so no idea if this is still true)
6. Everything else is meh.
I've been floundering about wondering which is best, and being a mil. dictatorship with all the choices doesn't help ;~;
Like, energy torpedoes. Only use I've got for corvettes once I go cruiser+ is for torpedo boats.
Then try verifying integrity of game cache (right click game -> Properties -> Local Files tab). In theory, that's the default way to fix something obviously broken with the game (meaning obvious to Steam, corrupted files or the like). You can also try that first if you don't want to bother testing the mod.I did all that and it's all verified ;~;
If that doesn't work you might try uninstalling and reinstalling it completely, though with your internet speeds... :'(
And Beautiful Universe only touches graphics (so I can do achievements on ironman with wonderful backgrounds :P)
And yes. My internets. I've been having trouble even loading B12 lately because of the interrupting speed. :'(
Amoeba Flagella are pretty nice if you can get them, totally piercing shields and ignoring half the enemy's armor, giving them a damage output almost as good as top-tier bombers.Could I ask a tutorial about fighters and scout craft and which can be used against what?
Of course, PD will shred them.
One nice thing I've seen from Scout craft is that they themselves serve as PD, shooting down enemy missiles long before they get close enough to serve as a threat to your ships.
...I would have the in-game tutorial pop up for me but I had it disabled and it takes long to even get to that point, other than clicking 'don't see again' every single time. :-\
Post by: Hanzoku on November 13, 2016, 09:12:48 am
Amoeba Flagella are pretty nice if you can get them, totally piercing shields and ignoring half the enemy's armor, giving them a damage output almost as good as top-tier bombers.
Of course, PD will shred them.
One nice thing I've seen from Scout craft is that they themselves serve as PD, shooting down enemy missiles long before they get close enough to serve as a threat to your ships.
Yeah, I was a bit surprised at how good they are. They're tier 2.75 bombers, and if you get them first you can basically ignore the whole small craft tech chain, as it saves you years for a VERY minor upgrade to your strike craft
Post by: PanH on November 13, 2016, 09:47:03 am
Not just that, the game seems abnormally stable for a PI game. I can't recall ANY crashes at all (barring start up crashes with mods that aren't playing nice)Synchronisation is pretty awful tho. I've had lots of synch issues with it.
Post by: Tiruin on November 13, 2016, 11:54:21 pm
:(Not just that, the game seems abnormally stable for a PI game. I can't recall ANY crashes at all (barring start up crashes with mods that aren't playing nice)Nope. I can't recall having any crashes. Might be something to do with your system.As in, when you've a science vessel with a leader caught in combat, then you press manual retreat (as in you live for the 30-ish days? :P), the game crashes?
Not sure where the crashlogs are stored, but if you can find them it may be an idea to go to the forums and drop them off there.
All I want is to play with my empire pretty well. And giant battleships. Those too. :-\
(Though somehow the steam achievements don't even activate for some reason -_- I've heard that even if your net dies while the ironman game is going, it'll still work as long as the checksum [unmodded] isn't changed...but I've never even gotten the 5000 EC OR 'complete a trade deal' achievements >_>)
Thanks for the advice though everyone c:
Wait...you mean the tech I can get around 'in the first decade just by corvettes or by just meeting those amoebas' is better than nearly half a century worth of tech for hangars? o_OAmoeba Flagella are pretty nice if you can get them, totally piercing shields and ignoring half the enemy's armor, giving them a damage output almost as good as top-tier bombers.
Of course, PD will shred them.
One nice thing I've seen from Scout craft is that they themselves serve as PD, shooting down enemy missiles long before they get close enough to serve as a threat to your ships.
Yeah, I was a bit surprised at how good they are. They're tier 2.75 bombers, and if you get them first you can basically ignore the whole small craft tech chain, as it saves you years for a VERY minor upgrade to your strike craft
Really keeping notes on the tech here. And thoroughly wondering in the mid-game, if Cruisers seem to be the basic workhorse given their general variety over destroyers and corvettes along with Battleships as backup. (It seems that cruisers move to the front MORE than destroyers for some reason? But they have as bad an evade as Battleships.)
What does the "Track" value do for ships? And is Evade a 'pure' value, or is it countered by Track or something?
Post by: Aedel on November 14, 2016, 12:15:32 am
20 track VS 40 evade = you effectively have 20 evade instead of 40
Post by: Shadowlord on November 14, 2016, 02:04:47 am
Post by: Hanzoku on November 14, 2016, 07:52:23 am
Post by: Aqizzar on November 14, 2016, 11:54:36 pm
Turning off some of the game start options sounds like it would randomize things more but I haven't seen much effect.
Post by: IronyOwl on November 15, 2016, 01:16:19 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 15, 2016, 01:34:38 am
My thoughts:
- Add a third option to slave reproduction, giving us Allowed, Balanced, and Prohibited. The last will result in slave pops slowly dying off without as severe a penalty as the purge.
- Add a migration treaty variant to expel pops from the empire to either another or space, given that they're fleshing out fleet-based civilizations soon this is hopefully already in the cards. Can also get rid of troublemaking ethic drifters, for that matter. This could let the Xenophobe avoid a diplomacy penalty at all, instead spending resources.
- Familiarity breeds contempt, reduce xenophobia and atrocity penalties by distance between the closest borders of empires. "People" on the other side of the galaxy shouldn't care that much about what some random empire is doing unless they're into democracy and friendship or some other mental illness.
- Maybe an opinion bonus for Xenophobes who don't border each other to cancel out the xenophobia malus, like "Mutual Isolation". Balance with a more intense malus for bordering Xenophobes, "Imminent Threat".
I think just a few changes like these would make xenophobes more viable for both players and AI so they have a chance to become galactic powers instead of trouble spots to have to roll over and integrate. Even pacifists don't get hit with as bad a stick, and don't get me started on xenophobic pacifists...
Post by: Descan on November 15, 2016, 01:20:13 pm
So you can occasionally work with them if it's only once in a while, but the more you try and push into them diplomatically, the more repulsed by your hideous insectoid carapace they are.
Post by: Drakale on November 15, 2016, 01:37:34 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on November 15, 2016, 05:22:43 pm
Without that kind of nuance, the hammer solutions of +30% border range or +15% weapon damage or +10% happiness at war or whatever are probably going to feel wonky, not make perfect sense, and find it really hard to compensate for what are an entirely separate set of problems.
Post by: Rolan7 on November 15, 2016, 08:23:15 pm
Even if you manage to look like a Klingon (rubber forehead), and drink like a Klingon (ethylredoxrazine), you're still going to get the crap beaten out of you repeatedly. And then they might get suspicious.
Post by: Paul on November 16, 2016, 02:31:58 pm
I had a fleet of 70 autocannon armed corvettes chase down an enemy fleet of 40 corvettes, 18 destroyers, and 5 cruisers armed with gamma lasers. Since I could predict their route I just jumped to the same system they were headed to. Popped in right on top of them and shredded their fleet. Only lost 6 ships and killed all but 8 destroyers and a cruiser. Without the range disadvantage they way outperform other weapons.
Post by: Sirus on November 16, 2016, 04:43:16 pm
Now it seems that hyperdrives have to retreat all the way to the edge of a system in order to go FTL, just like warp drives but without the ability to go anywhere within range. That seems to be a fairly large nerf.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on November 16, 2016, 04:48:02 pm
Am I crazy, or wasn't there a time when hyperdrives were able to jump out at any point in a system in order to offset their lack of strategic flexibility?
Now it seems that hyperdrives have to retreat all the way to the edge of a system in order to go FTL, just like warp drives but without the ability to go anywhere within range. That seems to be a fairly large nerf.
No your not, I definitely remember them being able to jump from orbit to the next system.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 16, 2016, 06:08:36 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 16, 2016, 06:31:43 pm
Post by: Tiruin on November 16, 2016, 07:45:59 pm
We're not talking about emergency FTL though. Used to be, hyperdrive could activate from anywhere inside a star system and following any of the available hyperlanes, as opposed to warp and wormhole which required ships to move to the edge of the system.Now you have Wormhole doing that and hyperdrive retreating outside the gravity well! :P
Although I'm wondering--when do the new achievements come out (and does the new patch do ANYTHING to fix these bugs? >.<)
Post by: Powder Miner on November 16, 2016, 11:49:41 pm
WORRY
Edit: OH MAN IT'S THE UNBIDDEN MY FIRST ENDGAME CRISIS
at least this means I never have to worry about synth rebellion once i get synths
but ooooh shit it's 2380 i'm not strong enough for this
Edit2: hey at least they're on the opposite side of the galaxy, where there are actually empires stronger than mine
gives me time to get SWOLE
Oh, they popped next to a xenophobic fallen empire, too
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 19, 2016, 05:23:48 pm
at least this means I never have to worry about synth rebellion once i get synthsEndgame crises are not mutually exclusive, just negatively weighted once one has happened. You could have another.
Post by: Rolan7 on November 19, 2016, 05:24:48 pm
Maybe it changed though!
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 19, 2016, 05:48:31 pm
Post by: Powder Miner on November 19, 2016, 06:31:56 pm
I've read that they're mutually exclusive -- I even saw an article that suggested intentionally triggering the Unbidden (which I didn't) to make AI safeat least this means I never have to worry about synth rebellion once i get synthsEndgame crises are not mutually exclusive, just negatively weighted once one has happened. You could have another.
also
My fleet, which was slightly but appreciably more powerful than the enemy fleet, was lining up for a cataclysmic clash that I would probably win -- and at that moment, I ran out of energy and my fleet dropped to half effectiveness
I'm so salty
Post by: Sirus on November 19, 2016, 06:33:02 pm
Post by: Powder Miner on November 19, 2016, 06:35:06 pm
But I have to be careful because what I'm proposing sometimes would go over their cap
Post by: Sirus on November 19, 2016, 06:37:47 pm
Post by: Powder Miner on November 19, 2016, 06:43:01 pm
I really do have a lot -- around 12k or so at the moment, and over 250 more coming each month
Post by: Sirus on November 19, 2016, 06:45:45 pm
I do not understand why you were running out of power then. Surely you should be maintaining at least a steady state of energy, if not a constant gain.
Post by: Powder Miner on November 19, 2016, 06:52:01 pm
That and I'm burning a LOT of energy on terraforming as many planets as I can
Post by: jocan2003 on November 19, 2016, 08:05:30 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 19, 2016, 08:10:55 pm
Post by: Powder Miner on November 20, 2016, 04:26:39 am
My planets:
All countries: Earth
United States of America: New California, Liberty's Bastion (hue)
Italy: Mediolanum (named after ancient Roman Milan)
Georgia: Akhali Sak'art'velo (google translated "New Georgia")
China: Laozi (after the philosopher), Jihui Pubu (google translated for "Opportunity Falls"), Cao Wei (one of the Three Kingdoms)
Japan: Amaterasu (after the goddess)
Cambodia: Chenla (proto-Cambodian ancient kingdom that may or may not have existed)
Bangladesh: Mymensingh (Bangladeshi administrative division; this is an entirely synth colony. Bengali-speaking robots, not something you see every day)
Australia: Tasmania II
New Zealand: Sewell (after the first prime minister of New Zealand)
Egypt: Saladin (after Saladin)
Angola: Mbundu (The Umbundu and Kimbunde Bantu languages form the Mbundu language group, the most spoken in Angola)
South Africa: Xhosa-Zulu (after the ethnic groups), Van Wyn (Afrikaans for "Of Wine")
Hytheans (alien homeworld): Nutfall (game's name)
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 20, 2016, 04:53:17 am
Australia: Tasmania III don't even want to know.
Post by: Johuotar on November 20, 2016, 01:01:17 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Powder Miner on November 20, 2016, 06:57:24 pm
I called this one Hope because I decided for the hell of it to roll along the table of percentage of speakers of each language in South Africa and got English -- learned that the most English speaking province of South Africa is evidently the Western Cape on the Cape of Good Hope
Post by: Descan on November 20, 2016, 07:04:24 pm
Since that seems to be the theme there. :P
Post by: Powder Miner on November 20, 2016, 07:24:08 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 20, 2016, 07:27:18 pm
Post by: Powder Miner on November 20, 2016, 07:27:42 pm
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
I'M THEIR NEXT DOOR NEIGHBORS
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 20, 2016, 07:29:33 pm
Post by: Powder Miner on November 20, 2016, 07:30:44 pm
I'm in a federation that can boost my numbers
I can take em
I CAN TAKE EM
Also, since I usually play on Ironman, if I screw this up I can't go back
I really need to figure out if I should try for an early decisive strike or what
In lighter news, I made yet another colony (my mass terraforming from earlier paid off) and named it Mohandas
this is in direct opposition to my immediate future
Post by: Sirus on November 20, 2016, 07:35:37 pm
Remember, they start rebuilding their fleets once they wake up. They might be starting out as "Superior" but they'll quickly get stronger.
Post by: Powder Miner on November 20, 2016, 07:37:13 pm
RIP Powder Miner.that just means now's my chance
Remember, they start rebuilding their fleets once they wake up. They might be starting out as "Superior" but they'll quickly get stronger.
I'm gonna try to screw up their infrastructure I guess
Post by: Powder Miner on November 20, 2016, 09:39:01 pm
well
damn
The combined might of my entire federation might about match up
HERE
GOES
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 20, 2016, 09:49:28 pm
Post by: Powder Miner on November 20, 2016, 09:51:21 pm
Ratio of 1 Battleship - 4 Cruisers - 7 Destroyers - 12 Corvettes
an unholy amount of railgun ammunition
good armor, good shields, good engines
bombers on all my cruisers & battleships
BATTLE ONGOING:
So it turns out they like to go for larger ships first -- my battleships died fairly early on, but my cruisers are taking a lot longer to go and my destroyers and corvettes are pretty much untouched
Yeah, my smaller ships are looking suuuuuper survivable against these guys
I may well win
my sentient AI computer chips in them are probably helping too
THEY RAN FOR IT
AHAHAHAHAAAAAA
So "bunch of sub-bttleship ships flinging kinetic rounds absolutely everywhere wildly" seems to be a working tactic. I've already blown two spaceports and things are so far looking good in my fight against the remainder of their fleet.
ha ha haaaaaaaa
I wiped the rest of their fleet without that much difficulty! There is something poetic about these giant ships (I took down a Titan) representing the full sovereign ancient might of the empires of old being overwhelmed by a bunch of modern ships that despite what looked like bad odds fired and fired and brought them down
Post by: Powder Miner on November 20, 2016, 11:15:47 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 20, 2016, 11:20:52 pm
Post by: Tiruin on November 20, 2016, 11:25:26 pm
Their fleet power is only "Superior" to mineHow do you guuuuuys record achievements in IRONMAN @_@ I keep playing on IRONMAN and despite my horribad net (or because of it--it usually ends up as 'local save ironmans' with the steam client displaying 'no connection') and never even getting an achievement!
I'm in a federation that can boost my numbers
I can take em
I CAN TAKE EM
Also, since I usually play on Ironman, if I screw this up I can't go back
I really need to figure out if I should try for an early decisive strike or what
In lighter news, I made yet another colony (my mass terraforming from earlier paid off) and named it Mohandas
this is in direct opposition to my immediate future
...Like those easy notices of 'achieved a trade' or 'get 5000 Energy Credits'. Already thoroughly done but they aren't even registering >_>
Also could I ask people's preference for the 'workhorse' or 'backbone' of their fleet? It seems Cruisers fare best here along with Battleship support, as everytime I've had cruisers--they're the frontline while my destroyers stay back at medium to longer range. Independent of their weapon loadout... x_x
Post by: Powder Miner on November 20, 2016, 11:44:27 pm
(wasn't fast or accurate enough to take the rest of my fleet tho)
Edit: I DID IT! I WON! Man, the internet had me worried but hahahahaaaaaa I dun kicked their asses! Now half of their planets have been converted to the ways of FREEDOM
>>bimathi demand I become a Dominion
>>>>after I just kicked their butts across their empire and took half of it
lol
Post by: Tiruin on November 21, 2016, 12:14:44 am
Yeah, my cruisers are usually my first ships to go -- my battleships only died so fast because the Spiritualist Awakened Empire loved its fancy energy lances which blow up capital ships really nicelyWaaaait. Corvettes with ~60% evasion; Destroyers with ~30% evasion, and Cruisers/Battleships with ~10% evasion.
(wasn't fast or accurate enough to take the rest of my fleet tho)
...Tell me your secrets please! :D Is the corvette ratio/firepower/numbers a lot more effective versus weapons that aren't fully tracking (ie missiles/strikecraft) as compared to those that require tracking to hit?
...And are shields actually useful on bigger ships? >.> The ~200 shield points for a medium slot compared to all the hull/armor points seems like a minor 'buffer' in my totally limited experience.
Grats on the win by the way. As a Federation?
Post by: Powder Miner on November 21, 2016, 12:27:19 am
And ohhh yeah, higher level shields + capacitors actually provides a very decent buffer. Thousands and thousands of points of damage.
The ratio I saw online; corvettes and destroyers are really really hard for capital ships to hit.
Post by: Sirus on November 21, 2016, 12:43:26 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 21, 2016, 03:33:20 pm
Post by: Tiruin on November 21, 2016, 05:09:33 pm
I believe this is relevant when talking about missiles. (https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/5e5zm3/the_missiles_are_a_lie_analysis/) In the sense of 'what the fuck is going on with them?'Does this nudge my personal bias about PD in a really itchy way? ._. Because I feel like it does, when you're technologically advanced over an enemy who uses only missiles (and it's checked by seeing their tech), and you have invariably gotten higher PD tech than their weapons tech, and filled everything as PD-destroyers versus corvettes.
I mean ballistics still won, but I didn't expect as many losses as I did while fielding only-purely-those-ships versus missile corvettes.
Post by: IronyOwl on November 21, 2016, 05:27:19 pm
I believe this is relevant when talking about missiles. (https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/5e5zm3/the_missiles_are_a_lie_analysis/) In the sense of 'what the fuck is going on with them?'No seriously what. Was half this game designed and coded by horses or something?
Also could I ask people's preference for the 'workhorse' or 'backbone' of their fleet? It seems Cruisers fare best here along with Battleship support, as everytime I've had cruisers--they're the frontline while my destroyers stay back at medium to longer range. Independent of their weapon loadout... x_xI only ever spam battleships, though I haven't done enough testing to figure out if that's actually ideal or not. It might be worth noting that I'm really teched out and only ever fighting FEs at the moment.
Post by: Flying Dice on November 21, 2016, 06:18:28 pm
I believe this is relevant when talking about missiles. (https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/5e5zm3/the_missiles_are_a_lie_analysis/) In the sense of 'what the fuck is going on with them?'Thank god someone else did the science. That meshes with some of the shit I was observing; I'd given up on my attempt to fix missiles because my PD changes weren't giving the results I expected. Now I'm getting flashbacks to the combat computer nonsense, except that this is even more stupid.
What's worse is that there's stuff in the ship behavior files, weighted values that are supposed to cause ships to retarget based on predicted damage dealt... and apparently the Paradox coders responsible didn't care enough to make sure that any of that worked.
Post by: Tiruin on November 21, 2016, 09:33:38 pm
I suppose you missed that thing that someone made a guide of which created corvettes of over 100% evasion?Tell me more please! :P
I haven't progressed late into the game enough for end-game crises (because I'm STILL playing the 'broken military dictatorship' timeline and am bordering just restarting the whole thing after getting 3 vassals, which of course wasn't recorded in the ironman game as a steam achievement when it did happen for reasons unknown since I don't have any mods running. :V). But I digress.
Corvettes seem really useful against the lower tracking weapons, especially with high engines and autocannons, with backup, but overall seem better than other ships (at least more survive in a way compared to the cruisers I keep fielding despite BOTH rushing to the front...past my destroyers, even if the destroyer loadout is M/S compared to those who literally stay alongside my battleships with L/M.)
Post by: Egan_BW on November 21, 2016, 09:37:59 pm
Horse-programming seems more and more common these days.I believe this is relevant when talking about missiles. (https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/5e5zm3/the_missiles_are_a_lie_analysis/) In the sense of 'what the fuck is going on with them?'No seriously what. Was half this game designed and coded by horses or something?
Post by: Powder Miner on November 21, 2016, 11:31:50 pm
My kinetic fleet has been slaughtering just about everything, and the ratio really is fantastic. Against mundane opponents, my battleship Giga Cannons do a real good job of shelling the hell out of them plus huge waves of bombers that basically tear their capital ships and stations to pieces, my cruisers always have fantastic damage output, and I've already gone over my destroyers and corvettes and how they obliterated the awakened empire fleet
My cruisers inevitably get killed way more than any of my other ships against mundane opponents because they don't have the dodge of my lesser ships nor the tank of my battleships, but I always replace them because they do quite a bit of damage. Corvettes used to be objectively better than other ships, but you have to keep in mind they only decimated the awakened empire for two reasons: A. The awakened empire was spamming fancy energy lances that disintegrated my battleships but they didn't actually field very many weapons that are good against cruiser and smaller, and B. My cruisers were taking the brunt of the damage and dealing damage too.
Against mundane empires, my capital ships are absolutely indisposable, and without them and the cruisers my smaller ships would have been squashed like bugs a while ago in my perennial liberation wars.
Post by: TempAcc on November 22, 2016, 07:44:24 am
Post by: redwallzyl on November 23, 2016, 10:30:16 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 23, 2016, 10:34:09 pm
Post by: redwallzyl on November 23, 2016, 10:45:29 pm
Have you tried speeding up the game using the time controls?what exactly does that do?
Post by: Flying Dice on November 23, 2016, 10:50:09 pm
Post by: redwallzyl on November 23, 2016, 11:07:27 pm
Post by: TempAcc on November 24, 2016, 06:29:46 am
Post by: redwallzyl on November 24, 2016, 09:19:09 am
Post by: etgfrog on November 24, 2016, 09:45:02 pm
I suppose you missed that thing that someone made a guide of which created corvettes of over 100% evasion?This doesn't work at all anymore, tracking subtracts the target's evasion. So those small guns with 60% tracking will only have their accuracy reduced by 40% when shooting the 100% evasion corvette.
Post by: Paul on November 25, 2016, 12:16:13 am
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 25, 2016, 12:37:01 am
Post by: Tiruin on November 25, 2016, 01:08:16 am
Being immune to big guns isn't relevant when you've got a few (dozen) cruisers with lots of small guns.PD destroyers with small arms compliment works too :3
That's how I took on corvette rushes...that admittedly were very laggy using a destroyer/cruiser screen, putting all those 's' slots to work combined with bigger 'M' and 'L' slots for diversity.
Though it's usually always numbers that win, rather than tech unless there's a big gap in between :-\ Can't forget when I faced 35 corvettes with 25 of mine + 10 or so destroyers. Was wiped hard :-[ Although I did use missiles and they used ballistics at the time, I had Missiles IV and they had whatever-the-coilgun-was-at-II.
Post by: Ehndras on November 25, 2016, 03:44:55 am
I ONLY use missiles with the longest range possible on large mounts, and ignore all else. Completely pointless after a few years to even bother with S/M missiles.
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 25, 2016, 04:35:19 am
Post by: Ehndras on November 25, 2016, 06:14:13 am
Post by: Majestic7 on November 25, 2016, 08:15:46 am
Post by: Ehndras on November 25, 2016, 10:45:24 am
Post by: Mini on November 25, 2016, 11:24:59 am
Post by: sprinkled chariot on November 25, 2016, 11:46:35 am
Actually, they are not :c
Post by: Paul on November 25, 2016, 12:06:04 pm
Post by: Ehndras on November 25, 2016, 12:10:30 pm
His software license expired.
*laughs in space, where no one can hear me*
Post by: Ehndras on November 25, 2016, 12:15:49 pm
Suddenly, you lose.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on November 25, 2016, 03:42:46 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on November 25, 2016, 05:15:29 pm
Another place their discrete pop usage might have hurt the game, come to think of it. Having more fluid castes/numbers could have let you do interesting things in tracking scientists vs manufacturers and elite noble superlizards vs uplifted cockroach dregs.
Post by: Egan_BW on November 25, 2016, 10:03:24 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 25, 2016, 10:31:26 pm
Post by: Tiruin on November 25, 2016, 11:10:23 pm
Damn, I expected synthetic leaders to be immune to lol ded cuz 65 years old, m8.Is...there anyway to have leaders live for a longer time that aren't necessarily coming across as 'ded in a few years'? :-X
Actually, they are not :c
I'm particularly attached to my leaders just because of that.
Post by: Culise on November 26, 2016, 12:05:54 am
You can pick up one of the two racial traits at game generation: Enduring (+30 years) and Venerable (+90 years). A third racial trait exists for uplifted species called Irradiated (+30 years), but you would need to replace your own original race with them just as you would for an all-synth empire. Otherwise, you can emphasize Biology research in the Social category, which lets you pick up additional years (10 from Vitality Boosters, another 5 for each time you research the repeatable Cell Revitalization).Damn, I expected synthetic leaders to be immune to lol ded cuz 65 years old, m8.Is...there anyway to have leaders live for a longer time that aren't necessarily coming across as 'ded in a few years'? :-X
Actually, they are not :c
I'm particularly attached to my leaders just because of that.
Post by: Egan_BW on November 26, 2016, 12:07:35 am
Post by: Ultimuh on November 26, 2016, 12:08:52 am
Why would being irradiated INCREASE life expectancy?Because pseudoscience.
Post by: Egan_BW on November 26, 2016, 12:11:42 am
Post by: Culise on November 26, 2016, 12:12:26 am
Why would being irradiated INCREASE life expectancy?Didn't you know? Radiation is the newest cure-all for the modern world. Radium toothpaste. Radium bath salts. Radon water supplements. Uranium sand beds. And don't forget to pick up your free container of Radithor (https://www.scribd.com/document/188172930/The-Radium-Water-Worked-Fine-Until-His-Jaw-Fell-Off), Perpetual Sunshine® and A Cure for The Living Dead®.
Post by: Flying Dice on November 26, 2016, 01:04:59 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on November 26, 2016, 02:15:19 am
Post by: IcyTea31 on November 26, 2016, 02:23:58 am
Why would being irradiated INCREASE life expectancy?Irradiated species have evolved to adapt to the radioactive and otherwise hazardous environment of their homeworld. These adaptations probably include such things as a better mechanism for DNA repair and faster cell division, perhaps even secondary internal organs. Take them to a safer environment and they are likely to have a longer life expectancy than creatures that evolved on more benign planets.
Post by: Tiruin on November 26, 2016, 02:40:47 am
Hey! MyAhh, reminds me of one big important thing...jedisword-wielding psionic warriors are very realistic, thank you.
...When I equip my armies, their equipment seems bound to the planet they're on (friendly, dockable), so when I invade with armies, they come up as blank! (Defending armies can have equipment but I've never seen the AI equip them other than spawning loads of defensive armies on the go)
Where did their fancy equipment go? My psionic commandos are not present :< The same follows my Star Wars/Clone Wars imagery! Where are my Jedi Knights? D:
Post by: Chiefwaffles on November 26, 2016, 03:17:44 am
Post by: ollobrains on November 26, 2016, 04:33:54 am
Post by: IronyOwl on November 26, 2016, 06:14:13 am
...When I equip my armies, their equipment seems bound to the planet they're on (friendly, dockable), so when I invade with armies, they come up as blank! (Defending armies can have equipment but I've never seen the AI equip them other than spawning loads of defensive armies on the go)You have the weirdest bugs. ???
Where did their fancy equipment go? My psionic commandos are not present :< The same follows my Star Wars/Clone Wars imagery! Where are my Jedi Knights? D:
A quick search confirms that armies vanishing or being stuck were an issue for some people in the past, but I haven't been able to find anything on losing their attachments. Does it always happen?
Post by: Tiruin on November 26, 2016, 06:22:17 am
Yes o_O...When I equip my armies, their equipment seems bound to the planet they're on (friendly, dockable), so when I invade with armies, they come up as blank! (Defending armies can have equipment but I've never seen the AI equip them other than spawning loads of defensive armies on the go)You have the weirdest bugs. ???
Where did their fancy equipment go? My psionic commandos are not present :< The same follows my Star Wars/Clone Wars imagery! Where are my Jedi Knights? D:
A quick search confirms that armies vanishing or being stuck were an issue for some people in the past, but I haven't been able to find anything on losing their attachments. Does it always happen?
I dock my attack armies on the homeworld, equip them with the neoconcrete fortifications all, then attack a planet I'm at war with. The attachments don't seem to carry over when it's all blank, and despite winning (and getting the planet into friendly territory, meaning 're-equip'), I re-equip them with different attachments.
When I sally them forth back onto the homeworld, they're back to the original attachments. >______>
Post by: Shadowlord on November 26, 2016, 06:24:18 am
Why would being irradiated INCREASE life expectancy?Irradiated species have evolved to adapt to the radioactive and otherwise hazardous environment of their homeworld. These adaptations probably include such things as a better mechanism for DNA repair and faster cell division, perhaps even secondary internal organs. Take them to a safer environment and they are likely to have a longer life expectancy than creatures that evolved on more benign planets.
This
Post by: Chiefwaffles on November 26, 2016, 07:33:01 am
What is the counter to an AI fleet of about 6-10k equipped with all plasma weaponry and with well-rounded armor and shields? (And the auxiliary shield capacitor things which we both have.)
I don't know why, but I just can't win. I always outnumber them but no matter what designs I field, I get crushed. I have better tech and more ships, but for whatever reason they melt through my ships at insane rates while I spend ages carving off the forever-regenerate shields.
I've tried all sorts of combinations of disrupters, plasma, and kinetics but I just keep getting crushed.
Post by: Taricus on November 26, 2016, 07:52:48 am
Post by: Sirus on November 26, 2016, 09:07:10 am
Post by: Tiruin on November 26, 2016, 09:10:04 am
Do they have point defense? If you can't get through their shields, ignore them; bombers and torpedoes would probably help quite a bit, bombers possibly more so since they also penetrate a goodly amount of armor.What do you people suggest for hangar-type builds by the way? Close-combat cruisers/carriers? (since I've no idea what the range is for strikecraft, or what counters what kind of strikecraft, like do fighters act as PD too?) Do you outfit your battleships as carriers when they only all stay back? :-\ [Is there anyway to diversify the combat computer or ship Ai at all?]
Post by: Paul on November 26, 2016, 10:29:45 am
The corvettes quickly wiped out the enemy corvettes and fared well against the larger plasma guns thanks to evasion, and the battleships focus fired down their bigger ships.
I had a 12k fleet vs a 11k fleet (so I had the advantage there). I lost about 3k worth of corvettes but no battleships, and wiped out almost their entire fleet.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on November 26, 2016, 06:38:26 pm
I don't get it. They just have plasma throwers and an occasional missile (for which I have several PD boats to defend against) combined with well-rounded shields and armor. I've tried adapting my fleet but it just won't do anything. My ships are almost entirely shield-based, I have lots of kinetic artillery and autocannons along with a decent amount of disrupters and plasmas, but I just keep on getting crushed.
Post by: IronyOwl on November 26, 2016, 06:41:25 pm
Yes o_OBizarre. Is it possible it's just a graphical bug? Do their stats seem right/do they have the modifiers listed in their expanded mouseover text?
I dock my attack armies on the homeworld, equip them with the neoconcrete fortifications all, then attack a planet I'm at war with. The attachments don't seem to carry over when it's all blank, and despite winning (and getting the planet into friendly territory, meaning 're-equip'), I re-equip them with different attachments.
When I sally them forth back onto the homeworld, they're back to the original attachments. >______>
Strike craft are really long range, so no worries there. That said, they do have a relatively slow travel time relative to actual weapons fire, so it's pretty common for your carriers to take a few volleys before their strike craft arrive to retaliate. They exclusively target larger ships from what I've seen. Bombers are quite good at their job at first, but bleed off damage to PD relatively quickly. Fighters act as PD and thus shred through bombers pretty well.Do they have point defense? If you can't get through their shields, ignore them; bombers and torpedoes would probably help quite a bit, bombers possibly more so since they also penetrate a goodly amount of armor.What do you people suggest for hangar-type builds by the way? Close-combat cruisers/carriers? (since I've no idea what the range is for strikecraft, or what counters what kind of strikecraft, like do fighters act as PD too?) Do you outfit your battleships as carriers when they only all stay back? :-\ [Is there anyway to diversify the combat computer or ship Ai at all?]
I used to outfit my battleships as bomber carriers, which sort of worked and looked amazing. But I was up against fighter carriers, which meant they not only had a giant wave of PD, their hangar slots contained PD because there was nothing else to put there. The end result was that my fleet would take heavy spinal mount fire for a long time, my bombers would get decimated by their fighters but eventually push through, the surviving bombers would shred their battleships for a while but bleed out to enemy fighters/mounted PD, we'd both run out of strike craft, and our battleships would mill about slapping each other ineffectually for kind of a long while.
Oh my god. I just had my 22k fleet vs their 20k fleet. The "tug of war" battle status indicator thing was heavily biased towards me at first but I still got crushed while doing almost no damage to their army.Maybe it's ship type or behavioral issues, then? Their corvettes evading your battleships or... something? Have you noticed how the battles go on a smaller scale, what's targeting what and so on?
I don't get it. They just have plasma throwers and an occasional missile (for which I have several PD boats to defend against) combined with well-rounded shields and armor. I've tried adapting my fleet but it just won't do anything. My ships are almost entirely shield-based, I have lots of kinetic artillery and autocannons along with a decent amount of disrupters and plasmas, but I just keep on getting crushed.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on November 26, 2016, 06:47:16 pm
It just seems like in battles their battleships simply melt whatever target they're aimed at, regardless of class or shields or armor. When my corvettes get into range, I start losing a bit less but still get crushed.
Though this battle was caused by an inderdicting military station, so it was in close proximity. I would have thought this should have given me an advantage thanks to my larger amount of corvettes, but nooope! And I don't really think this has something to do with it, but I also have ZBeautiful battles installed, which could theoretically impact battle outcomes, I suppose?
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 26, 2016, 06:48:03 pm
Post by: Paul on November 26, 2016, 08:30:22 pm
If most of your fleet is autocannon corvettes the ZBeautiful Battles mod might be altering the outcome. They're very short range, and that mod makes ships close slower and spread out more. I haven't personally used the mod though so I don't know.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on November 26, 2016, 08:39:17 pm
I did beat them in the end, though. I just focused all my production capabilities on Corvettes and Destroyers.
I thought Corvette spam was a thing of the past, but I guess not.
Post by: Paul on November 26, 2016, 08:55:38 pm
Post by: TempAcc on November 26, 2016, 09:01:09 pm
Post by: Descan on November 28, 2016, 05:23:27 pm
Keep in mind, I haven't even unlocked robots, let alone synthetics.
I didn't even know this was possible. Bug? Feature? I mean, turning yourself into a robot is a thing in Sci-Fi but you'd think it'd be more explicit that this is what happened...
Post by: da_nang on November 28, 2016, 07:44:57 pm
I've got many early colonies that are not fully developed, colonies where frankly I am disappoint due to sector AI, and I'm already scraping the barrel with what I can field on a positive budget without an upkeep admiral. Oh and no defense stations. Not even the first ones.
Advised course of action?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on November 28, 2016, 07:47:51 pm
But side question: Has anyone found defense stations effective? I just don't get them. The best ones you can get are something like 2k power. But with maintenance and the fact that you can't have a fleet of them, how are they effective at all at actual defense? The only real use I see for them is for FTL interdiction and the occasional homefield battle support.
Post by: da_nang on November 28, 2016, 07:55:58 pm
Don't Fallen Empires have fleets within the 100k+ range? Based on my near-complete lack of experience, I would just say accept becoming a thrall. Maybe conquer some other thralls to consolidate your power and eventually overthrow your alien overlords. Y'know, the usual.
Damn. Well next time I'm modding the FE to wake up later. 100 years is a bit early.
Quote
But side question: Has anyone found defense stations effective? I just don't get them. The best ones you can get are something like 2k power. But with maintenance and the fact that you can't have a fleet of them, how are they effective at all at actual defense? The only real use I see for them is for FTL interdiction and the occasional homefield battle support.
Other than defense roses, they're worthless I say.
Post by: Sirus on November 28, 2016, 07:58:07 pm
Post by: Retropunch on November 28, 2016, 08:18:33 pm
I only really build them on absolute front line systems where I need things to hold out for a fleet to arrive.
Post by: IronyOwl on November 28, 2016, 08:33:08 pm
I just had a population on one of my planets genetically engineer themselves with the normal event dialogue, like 2 months after I unlocked the tech, into Synthetics. As in, the third tier of robots. They can grow as a normal pop but are otherwise identical to normal synthetics.Now see this is a good bug. I mean, it's still kind of incomprehensible as to how it even happened, but in a might make a nice feature way, not a why is a third of the game nonfunctional way.
Keep in mind, I haven't even unlocked robots, let alone synthetics.
I didn't even know this was possible. Bug? Feature? I mean, turning yourself into a robot is a thing in Sci-Fi but you'd think it'd be more explicit that this is what happened...
On the topic of fortresses: In addition to the uses already mentioned, I once had the great fortune of having one draw all of an enemy fleet's fighters towards it, thus leaving my own bombers a relatively clear path.
Post by: redwallzyl on November 28, 2016, 09:18:50 pm
Post by: Descan on November 29, 2016, 01:33:34 am
They may not have bred, but the "ROBOT_POP_TIER_3" on that world got both fast breeder and strong as genetic traits. :P
Methinks t'is a bug.
Post by: Hanzoku on November 29, 2016, 02:10:49 am
Post by: Mephansteras on November 29, 2016, 02:27:31 pm
Post by: GiglameshDespair on November 29, 2016, 03:14:49 pm
I'd say get it.
Post by: Shadowlord on November 29, 2016, 04:00:02 pm
Post by: Paul on November 29, 2016, 04:05:27 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on November 29, 2016, 04:40:12 pm
It is however getting a new update soon-ish.
And you might want to read up on various Developer diaries, unless you don't want to be spoiled of anything.
Post by: Retropunch on November 29, 2016, 06:34:57 pm
Game is on sale on steam right now. What do people think? Worth getting? Or should I hold off a while longer for more content to come out?
I'd wait for the next DLC drop - I'm kinda annoyed (all my own fault) that I burned myself out with it. Each DLC/patch has improved it a lot, and I really wish I'd just waited a year and really loved it rather than gotten it early and been a bit so-so. It's good fun and a good 4x, but I think in a patch or two it'll become really, really impressive.
Post by: Tiruin on November 30, 2016, 10:36:04 am
Game is on sale on steam right now. What do people think? Worth getting? Or should I hold off a while longer for more content to come out?From someone playing on steam sharing, it's something worth getting :)
But content-wise, there's the late-game drop of familiarity and time given the current status of the...probably-bland AI and rigidness with the (initial impression of) diverse choices at the start. But that takes some time to get to though!
Although I'm someone who aims for the steam achievements first before enjoying the game >_> Grrr, stuff not saving for SOME reason despite me playing in Ironman/no mods.
Post by: redwallzyl on November 30, 2016, 10:59:34 am
Post by: umiman on November 30, 2016, 01:04:34 pm
I believe if your internet drops even once during a session for Paradox games, it won't register any achievements for the rest of the session.Game is on sale on steam right now. What do people think? Worth getting? Or should I hold off a while longer for more content to come out?From someone playing on steam sharing, it's something worth getting :)
But content-wise, there's the late-game drop of familiarity and time given the current status of the...probably-bland AI and rigidness with the (initial impression of) diverse choices at the start. But that takes some time to get to though!
Although I'm someone who aims for the steam achievements first before enjoying the game >_> Grrr, stuff not saving for SOME reason despite me playing in Ironman/no mods.
I don't know why they're so hardcore about protecting their achievements but whatever.
Post by: Iceblaster on November 30, 2016, 01:10:35 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 30, 2016, 01:41:13 pm
I believe if your internet drops even once during a session for Paradox games, it won't register any achievements for the rest of the session.
I don't know why they're so hardcore about protecting their achievements but whatever.
In my experience with EU4 it will work as long as you reconnect before the achievement is supposed to fire.
Post by: redwallzyl on November 30, 2016, 02:43:19 pm
Been looking around, can't find anything about it. What exactly goes into modding in a new personality & responses to go with said personality? I have no clue if the latter is possible, but the former is what I am actually interested in.ask in the modding thread on paradox's forum.
Post by: Iceblaster on November 30, 2016, 05:30:14 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on December 05, 2016, 04:40:16 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on December 05, 2016, 04:58:12 am
1.4 patch notes are here. (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/patch-1-4-0-full-patchnotes.986584/)
Highlights include:
- Option to disable auto-unpausing from popups
- New achievements
- New mechanics for extradimensional invaders
- Various balance changes
- Better sector AI
Post by: Retropunch on December 05, 2016, 05:28:39 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on December 05, 2016, 01:32:44 pm
Apparently written by the same writer who did Sunless Sea?
Post by: Powder Miner on December 05, 2016, 09:10:31 pm
>"hey this is pretty easy"
>go deeper
>inexplicable sudden 55 day warp time -- it has never taken my fleet this long before, but now close to their territory I'm getting slow as hell
>their armada converges, almost three times the fleet power of mine
>I look, my general is unyielding
weeeell my entire fleet's fucked
Post by: Powder Miner on December 05, 2016, 09:29:49 pm
ahaha
HAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA
Post by: Tiruin on December 05, 2016, 09:53:29 pm
hahThere's a 'modify post' button for inexplicable moments of doom up there :O
ahaha
HAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA
Though that is one point of Stellaris that I'd wish could be more...refined. "ENGAGE AT THIS RANGE", despite possible situations being '[warp jump] in 1 day' or anything like being ordered to get out of the system. Then it resets to 'emergency FTL in 30' :V
Post by: Chiefwaffles on December 05, 2016, 09:54:55 pm
Post by: Tiruin on December 05, 2016, 10:03:01 pm
I feel like that kind of stuff is completely vital to preventing every single war from degrading into a pure catch-the-runaway-fleet. Right now if you manage to get into combat range you at least get a grace period to do some damage before they emergency FTL out.So true ._.
But I was thinking 'refined' in 'could be handled better'...because there are many times in the initial game where you warp in a fleet, only to have it be splattered in a system because you warped just too close to patrolling NPCs. But that makes sense anyway :P
I just feel through personal experiences that the fleet engages even if the enemy isn't in their range but the approaching foe is within your longest possible attack range...and that doesn't help you on the retreat. >_<
Post by: Powder Miner on December 05, 2016, 10:17:07 pm
a ~~stylistic choice~~ emphasizing my change in tone before and after the battle
which I won B)
I mean, I went from around 70k in my fleet to around 18k, but bah gawd I won, mulched most of their fleet.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on December 05, 2016, 10:25:36 pm
I feel like that kind of stuff is completely vital to preventing every single war from degrading into a pure catch-the-runaway-fleet. Right now if you manage to get into combat range you at least get a grace period to do some damage before they emergency FTL out.So true ._.
But I was thinking 'refined' in 'could be handled better'...because there are many times in the initial game where you warp in a fleet, only to have it be splattered in a system because you warped just too close to patrolling NPCs. But that makes sense anyway :P
I just feel through personal experiences that the fleet engages even if the enemy isn't in their range but the approaching foe is within your longest possible attack range...and that doesn't help you on the retreat. >_<
There could be a lot more military strategy involved in this game anyways. I think that there needs to be a VASTLY larger incentive to just keep the grand fleet in one giant armada.
Post by: Tiruin on December 05, 2016, 10:27:59 pm
i'm well familiar with the modify post, the double post was intentional:v
a ~~stylistic choice~~ emphasizing my change in tone before and after the battle
which I won B)
I mean, I went from around 70k in my fleet to around 18k, but bah gawd I won, mulched most of their fleet.
Gimme tips. I thought you died back there with the probably-maniacal-laughter. :P
But yes please. Tiruin requires strategy tips because she only aims for cruiser/battleship builds and doesn't understand evasion or tactics other than 'hit them now and make peace' because she doesn't understand diplomacy either. :I
There could be a lot more military strategy involved in this game anyways. I think that there needs to be a VASTLY larger incentive to just keep the grand fleet in one giant armada.I always do this :P Unless enemies are really spread out and we're under attack on multiple sectors and areas.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on December 05, 2016, 10:35:48 pm
There could be a lot more military strategy involved in this game anyways. I think that there needs to be a VASTLY larger incentive to just keep the grand fleet in one giant armada.I always do this :P Unless enemies are really spread out and we're under attack on multiple sectors and areas.
SORRY!!! I meant to NOT keep the grand fleet in one giant armada! Repeat, to NOT keep it all together.
Post by: Powder Miner on December 05, 2016, 10:42:18 pm
Also, Tiruin -- seriously, smaller evadey ships are fantastic, they don't have huge fleet power but that's actually deceptive -- a good group of smaller ships paired with large ships can be very hard to take down.
I'm still working off of the 1-4-7-12 ratio. My ships are also designed without cost taken into account in the slightest.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on December 05, 2016, 10:55:18 pm
Post by: Paul on December 05, 2016, 11:14:00 pm
A combat readiness system would be interesting. It could be based off supply limits, and reduced readiness would make the fleet move slower and start to get combat penalties the lower it goes. A fleet above that limit would start to degrade readiness depending on how far above it they are. Just having ownership of a system would increase it a bit, with extra for each added base built there (defense or mining). Planets would have a significantly larger boost depending on their population, with a significant bonus for each level of spaceport. Enemy base presence would reduce the limit, and supply bases could be built in enemy territory to provide a staging point for larger fleets.
So the big fleets would only be able to maintain readiness over your worlds with spaceports, with raids deep into enemy territory either done so at reduced readiness or after you set up a few supply stations.
The idea would be that smaller fleets within the supply limits of enemy systems could fly in and bust up enemy systems a bit and make a path for your bigger fleet to come siege their planets.
Making an AI that intelligently used the system without being mercilessly abused by the player would be difficult, though. It would have to dynamically respond to threats and split forces and call for reinforcements as they detect fleets entering their systems.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on December 05, 2016, 11:20:54 pm
Post by: Descan on December 05, 2016, 11:40:21 pm
>decide to launch an attack on the unbidden, successfully knock out a system's worth of their stationsthe secret is that you can reassign your admiral mid-combat to another fleet (i think. i know you can get rid of him somehow; if you can't reassign him, you can fire him) and then retreat your fleet.
>"hey this is pretty easy"
>go deeper
>inexplicable sudden 55 day warp time -- it has never taken my fleet this long before, but now close to their territory I'm getting slow as hell
>their armada converges, almost three times the fleet power of mine
>I look, my general is unyielding
weeeell my entire fleet's fucked
Post by: Hanzoku on December 06, 2016, 02:37:36 am
Post by: Tiruin on December 06, 2016, 07:18:36 am
Hee~ :3 I noticed this with all other leaders too.>decide to launch an attack on the unbidden, successfully knock out a system's worth of their stationsthe secret is that you can reassign your admiral mid-combat to another fleet (i think. i know you can get rid of him somehow; if you can't reassign him, you can fire him) and then retreat your fleet.
>"hey this is pretty easy"
>go deeper
>inexplicable sudden 55 day warp time -- it has never taken my fleet this long before, but now close to their territory I'm getting slow as hell
>their armada converges, almost three times the fleet power of mine
>I look, my general is unyielding
weeeell my entire fleet's fucked
Like the science officer. "We're in an enemy system! We can't warp out fast enough!" or "We've warped past a patrolling crystal system, it is too dangerous to go back! There's no other way we can reach with our warp engine!", results in the science leader getting 'warped' out by clicks, and I can scrap the ship for...relatively no reason but a +1 to power again? It doesn't seem like they fixed the '10 days to area' thing. :v
...This game has a lot of bugs for some reason. :-\
Post by: IronyOwl on December 06, 2016, 07:55:15 am
...This game has a lot of bugs for some reason. :-\Speaking of which:
Quote from: 1.4 Patch Notes
* Fixed armor absorbing too much damage if the ship also had shields leftNow why does that sound so-
Quote from: Hotfix 1.3.2 Notes
* Fixed armor absorbing too much damage if the ship also had shields leftGuuuuuuuuuys...? You're not gonna "fix" the same bug like three of four more times, right? Right?
Post by: sprinkled chariot on December 06, 2016, 10:03:33 am
Post by: Aklyon on December 06, 2016, 10:12:26 am
Post by: da_nang on December 06, 2016, 10:38:32 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
In the mean time, I've been researching, colonizing and building up my fleet as well as being more aggressive with my freedom nibbles - though I've started putting in more cede planet war goals - just to get a suitable fleet and tech. The Quvarian Star Confederation is practically dead for all I care. They used to be the big boogeyman, but guess what!? There's a new big boy in town. Oh and I also have a federation builder neighbor I've buddied up with. Can't have the xenophobes getting into my turf.
Granted, we share the same color so it's more of an alliance of convenience thing...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Currently sitting on a 120k fleet and slowly considering whether I should just attack the awakened xenophobes or continue expanding and building up. Been trying to figure out their fleet composition but even having an active sensor link to their enemies when they're at war only tells me about ship types, not their gear.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on December 06, 2016, 12:20:50 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 06, 2016, 12:36:41 pm
That is all.
Post by: Sirus on December 06, 2016, 02:50:29 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 06, 2016, 03:07:59 pm
Like...how?They actually do stuff. Build construction ships, build buildings, build robots if you want them to. They're much less braindead.
Post by: Descan on December 06, 2016, 09:37:00 pm
Post by: Ehndras on December 06, 2016, 09:58:55 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on December 06, 2016, 10:09:48 pm
Quote from: 1.4 Patch Notes
* Repeatable technologies have their base cost increased from 1500 to 3000 and their increasing cost increased from 480 to 1000I'm playing a complete and utter sociology whore in my most recent game, so this feels like it was directed at me specifically and that makes me laugh. Guess 13 core systems and leaders that research new longevity treatments faster than the treatments last wasn't intended!
Post by: Tiruin on December 06, 2016, 10:47:22 pm
Wait, what do you mean by *now*? When did the update to sectors come out? Cause my poor ass is using a torrented version and I've been maxed out on 5 planets because I refuse to use broken sectors, and it's really screwing me mid to late game....Do the sector gov's actually NOT build over useful buildings you set right before you get to pause/click the 'respect resources' and stuff? :x
Also are achievements better able to get...achieved for those with poor connection like me on the 1.4 ironman? >_>
I can see a lot of nice achievements popping up .-.
E: I've always been wondering what people were referencing when they're saying 'lizard overlords'. That one achievement in the Stellaris list had me gratefully clued in into a foothold.
...What is this everyone is referencing? x_x
Post by: Descan on December 06, 2016, 11:23:32 pm
Post by: Tiruin on December 08, 2016, 12:07:18 pm
They're changing collectivist and individualist ethos for authoritarian and egalitarian respectively, reworking ethics divergence, and reworking factions into something that sounds a *bit* like estates from EUIV. (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-54-ethics-rework.987286/&utm_source=steam_community&utm_medium=community&utm_content=devdiary&utm_campaign=stellaris_devdiary_20161208)I'm pretty happy the 'collectivist' isn't SLAVERY SLAVERY >_> If we're seriously going by the modern definitions/comparisons, it's pretty much a 180 mirror opposite of what's actually collectivism [in the least collectivism from my perspective as my country is pretty much INTO it], so it felt very weird to see 'individualism' having the attitude of collectivism if the mechanics are pushed aside and the characteristics are noted instead (like the UNoE being all united but...well it just really feels different. That or I'm biased because most of what I see about individualism os haughty boastfulness and less of a remark to empathy :V ...and/or I just don't like slavery, or slavery being attributed to 'collectivism'.)
Out of these, the reworked factions is my favourite.
*link click!*
Yay they changed out collectivism/individualism! :D ...and my mind read 'Authoritarian replaces Collectivism' as 'oh wait what. Whyyyyy :-\' and then dwelled on 'how the stellar government is run' instead of in-game terms :I
That, or I'm just concerned about impressions mentioned by nobody else but me and assuming others live by these impressions. ;~; I'm tired. Augh.
*reads next paragraph*
...I'm too tired that I didn't read that they just explained it very nicely. Yay. :v I do like the broad freedom being presented though.
But what about purging population that players don't like? For...faction support! And all that... .-.; Also really hoping bugfixes happen.
Also for some strange reason totally aside from anything here, I spelled 'dwelled' and there's a red line under it. :V Weird things are poking the forum spellchecker.
Post by: Teneb on December 08, 2016, 12:09:08 pm
Post by: Retropunch on December 08, 2016, 12:25:37 pm
However, they'll need to make sure there are enough supporting mechanisms around it to make it interesting. If it's just 'spend capital to reduce support by x' it'll still be ultimately very shallow.
As I believe Banks might be about espionage, sending a spy in could be an interesting way to guide/disrupt factions
Post by: PTTG?? on December 08, 2016, 12:28:22 pm
Post by: Teneb on December 08, 2016, 12:31:04 pm
It's actually surprisingly refreshing that they changed the terminology. And also interesting that now Stalinism is totally oppositional to Communism.Stalinism was pretty much a totalitarian dictatorship dressed as communism anyway.
Post by: Descan on December 08, 2016, 04:08:14 pm
"Change your empire ethics" Yes please.
Post by: IronyOwl on December 08, 2016, 05:55:27 pm
Very promising indeed - it seems like all very sensible stuff which will help make empire management slightly more interesting whilst at the same time being a bit more natural.Yeah. Good on paper, but we'll have to see how it manifests.
However, they'll need to make sure there are enough supporting mechanisms around it to make it interesting. If it's just 'spend capital to reduce support by x' it'll still be ultimately very shallow.
As I believe Banks might be about espionage, sending a spy in could be an interesting way to guide/disrupt factions
Notably, I'm concerned about the clustering of various factions/ethos as they relate to various policies. Some are kind of obviously linked, eg Bombardment and War Type on the Mil/Pac axis. But what if those two policies disagree? Are you just stuck in some kind of faction limbo because nobody else likes one but not the other, or are there factions that will appreciate that? And if so, what else do they want/require? Are there going to be "optimal" policy schemes that really make some factions happy, or will any combination have its own benefits?
Room for interpretation is pretty important here. Presumably not all Materialist empires manifest exactly the same way, so it'd make some sense that you could have a Communist-flavored Stalinist empire even though those are completely mutually exclusive concepts on a larger scale.It's actually surprisingly refreshing that they changed the terminology. And also interesting that now Stalinism is totally oppositional to Communism.Stalinism was pretty much a totalitarian dictatorship dressed as communism anyway.
A good analogy might be a federation-builder style xenophobic empire. Internally, they're all about [INSERT_SPECIES_HERE] worth and freedom and happiness, cooperation and working together and reaching for the stars. But then they meet actual aliens and panic because it threatens all they've worked so hard to defend, so they get classified as Fanatic Xenophobe with what could be said to be Xenophile fluff. Similarly, Stalin's USSR was ideologically all about a worker's paradise, but then they get to the implementation and the only way to do that is absolute and utter control by an elite few, so they get classified as Totalitarian Asshole with what could be said to be Communist fluff.
"Change your empire ethics" Yes please.Indeed!
I do hope it's a complete pain in the ass, though. One of the few things they (I assume accidentally) did right was the possible disconnect between the government and its people, most clearly seen when you "liberate" planets into their own puppet empire whose people don't agree with their overlords at all. And, ideally, the very, very slow shift to changing their minds, assuming a bunch of conditions that usually aren't true. :x
Post by: Tiruin on December 08, 2016, 10:57:37 pm
Tir: Dwelt. That's the word you're looking for.Dwelled is a word too! ;~;
"Change your empire ethics" Yes please.
But the ethics here are hard-bound, or at least the general theme over everything. :PIt's actually surprisingly refreshing that they changed the terminology. And also interesting that now Stalinism is totally oppositional to Communism.Stalinism was pretty much a totalitarian dictatorship dressed as communism anyway.
Post by: Cruxador on December 09, 2016, 01:24:01 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on December 09, 2016, 01:33:37 am
But yeah, updates like the upcoming one are exciting in terms of potential. I've been really wanting some gameplay element other than painting the map, one ceded(/liberated) planet at a time in midgame. Now I just wonder what the expansion content is going to be.
Post by: Majestic7 on December 09, 2016, 04:47:19 am
Post by: Retropunch on December 09, 2016, 07:03:00 am
Very promising indeed - it seems like all very sensible stuff which will help make empire management slightly more interesting whilst at the same time being a bit more natural.Yeah. Good on paper, but we'll have to see how it manifests.
However, they'll need to make sure there are enough supporting mechanisms around it to make it interesting. If it's just 'spend capital to reduce support by x' it'll still be ultimately very shallow.
As I believe Banks might be about espionage, sending a spy in could be an interesting way to guide/disrupt factions
Notably, I'm concerned about the clustering of various factions/ethos as they relate to various policies. Some are kind of obviously linked, eg Bombardment and War Type on the Mil/Pac axis. But what if those two policies disagree? Are you just stuck in some kind of faction limbo because nobody else likes one but not the other, or are there factions that will appreciate that? And if so, what else do they want/require? Are there going to be "optimal" policy schemes that really make some factions happy, or will any combination have its own benefits?
Agreed - I can imagine it being difficult from a balance stand point - especially if they're one issue parties. I'm hoping they'll give us the tools to deal with them in some way other than just agreeing to their demands. I really hope they add a bit of life to the factions though.
This is part of my general problem with Stellaris - they need to add a bit more character to the different races/factions/leaders. I never feel like my scientists are anything other than a research or anomaly boost. I never feel like the Gloorp I'm speaking too is anything other than a set of ethics. I'm hoping that Banks will expand on that system a bit more, but I'm not too hopeful.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 09, 2016, 12:28:12 pm
Banks will obviously include a DLC dedicated to funny ship names.
i was hoping for a science-ish victory condition relating to Subliming (in the style of EU4 old westernization, with plenty of special projects and building required)
i tried to start a campaign a few days ago. a few decades in. still an incredibly boring game.
Post by: Descan on December 09, 2016, 03:47:21 pm
I.E. reptilians come cold-blooded and inherently do worse on cold planets and better on warm, or mammals get a small boost to habitability based on temperature, insects get a growth bonus, etc.
Post by: Shadowlord on December 09, 2016, 04:12:23 pm
Post by: Sirus on December 09, 2016, 04:15:02 pm
Post by: Descan on December 09, 2016, 04:22:48 pm
Post by: Sartain on December 09, 2016, 05:27:15 pm
they're aliens, the fact that we're *already* calling them reptilian is throwing the whole "but they may not be like earth animals!" out the window :v
Simply calling all the phenotypes "Alien" would have been kinda bland though. And probably more to the point, disorganised
Post by: Culise on December 09, 2016, 06:30:17 pm
Post by: Descan on December 09, 2016, 06:32:16 pm
cuz the whole issue is that they feel bland and interchangeable, right? so instead you get "oh, hey, this empire is reptilian; they're probably gonna have a lot of desert planets" or "hey this is molluscoid, they're probably really good at science" (smart molluscs being a trope in sci fi and all that)
Post by: Retropunch on December 09, 2016, 07:18:00 pm
maybe a better way would be to have AI empires predisposed to certain ethics and traits based on their phenotypes? :V
cuz the whole issue is that they feel bland and interchangeable, right? so instead you get "oh, hey, this empire is reptilian; they're probably gonna have a lot of desert planets" or "hey this is molluscoid, they're probably really good at science" (smart molluscs being a trope in sci fi and all that)
Yeah I don't think that's a bad idea. It wouldn't have to be that the portrait did anything (you could have very humanoid looking reptiles for instance) but I do think they need to go a lot, lot further in defining a race other than just ethics.
It wouldn't effect the player race, but the AI could be for example a 'collectivist reptile' and try to get a lot of densely populated hot planets as a sort of inbuilt goal - it'd open up things like them trying to trade colder planets for your hot ones and stuff that just doesn't exist right now.
Post by: IronyOwl on December 09, 2016, 08:27:05 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on December 09, 2016, 09:08:34 pm
Post by: Descan on December 09, 2016, 10:26:17 pm
I.e. 60% of them having x trait. Rather than "all reptiles do x"
Post by: Culise on December 09, 2016, 11:31:27 pm
I approve of more nuance, but I think I'm going to reluctantly admit I prefer appearance to be purely cosmetic. For me, figuring out what these fanatically xenophobic collective agrarian tundra-dwelling flying monkeys are like is part of the appeal, and giving them an energy boost or tendency to form federations feels like it's bolting two options together rather than making a previously meaningless option important.Same. I think that while they could stand to have more personality, that sort of personality could more effectively come from traits, the existing AI personality types, governments, and that sort.
Actually, it's interesting, because AI personality seems to define much more than I thought. Even preferred weapons types are a part of AI personality. It's just that not a lot of this is very obvious to the player, so it all blends into a bit of a grey mush. There are some really rare personality types, apparently (
EDIT: Ah, saw the above. I thought you were saying that portraits should act in addition to traits rather than replacing traits with a preferred set. That still seems kind of unnecessary to me, though, because it doesn't really solve the issue. That is, what makes one Hive Mind different from another Hive Mind, or either distinct from a Fanatical Purifier? I mean, I can list off specs like how a Hive Mind will spend 0.9x default on the military while a Purifier will spend 1.2x, or that a Hive Mind will favor a bit more armor while a Purifier favors a bit more shields, but that's not really all that much when you're looking at a galaxy map. If your bugs are going to be predisposed to Hive Minds and your Avians to Purifiers (f'rex), that still doesn't change how they act or how they deal with you; it's only an extra limiting factor on the generated empires.
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 10, 2016, 02:36:52 am
Post by: Retropunch on December 10, 2016, 07:16:53 am
So you could use a human portrait on a reptile, but reptiles would be an actual thing. This might just be a set of species traits and aggression modifiers, but it would give them a more distinct personality.
Everything now just seems like a blob of random traits.
Post by: kilakan on December 10, 2016, 09:43:38 am
The phenotypes do actually have an in-game effect: xenophiles/phobes like/dislike species of the same phenotype less, and those of different phenotypes more.I have never seen anything like this, and the wiki makes no mention of that being a thing.
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 10, 2016, 11:03:37 am
Quote from: http://www.stellariswiki.com/Diplomacy#Opinion_modifiers
Xenophobic Bigots
0
-10 IF {has ethic: Xenophile OR has ethic: Fanatic Xenophile} AND Your Empire has ethic: Xenophobe AND NOT{is in the same phenotype as: Your Empire }
-5 IF {has ethic: Xenophile OR has ethic: Fanatic Xenophile} AND Your Empire has ethic: Xenophobe AND is in the same phenotype as: Your Empire AND NOT{is the same species as: Your Empire } AND NOT{is subspecies of: Your Empire }
-10 IF NOT{has ethic: Fanatic Xenophobe} AND NOT{has ethic: Xenophobe} AND Your Empire has ethic: Xenophobe AND NOT{is in the same phenotype as: Your Empire }
-5 IF NOT{has ethic: Fanatic Xenophobe} AND NOT{has ethic: Xenophobe} AND Your Empire has ethic: Xenophobe AND is in the same phenotype as: Your Empire AND NOT{is the same species as: Your Empire } AND NOT{is subspecies of: Your Empire }
-20 IF {has ethic: Xenophile OR has ethic: Fanatic Xenophile} AND Your Empire has ethic: Fanatic Xenophobe AND NOT{is in the same phenotype as: Your Empire }
-10 IF {has ethic: Xenophile OR has ethic: Fanatic Xenophile} AND Your Empire has ethic: Fanatic Xenophobe AND is in the same phenotype as: Your Empire AND NOT{is the same species as: Your Empire } AND NOT{is subspecies of: Your Empire }
-20 IF NOT{has ethic: Fanatic Xenophobe} AND NOT{has ethic: Xenophobe} AND Your Empire has ethic: Fanatic Xenophobe AND NOT{is in the same phenotype as: Your Empire }
-10 IF NOT{has ethic: Fanatic Xenophobe} AND NOT{has ethic: Xenophobe} AND Your Empire has ethic: Fanatic Xenophobe AND is in the same phenotype as: Your Empire AND NOT{is the same species as: Your Empire } AND NOT{is subspecies of: Your Empire }
Xenophile Diplomacy
0
10 IF NOT{has ethic: Xenophile AND has ethic: Fanatic Xenophile AND has ethic: Xenophobe AND has ethic: Fanatic Xenophobe} AND Your Empire has ethic: Xenophile AND NOT{is in the same phenotype as: Your Empire }
20 IF NOT{has ethic: Xenophile AND has ethic: Fanatic Xenophile AND has ethic: Xenophobe AND has ethic: Fanatic Xenophobe} AND Your Empire has ethic: Fanatic Xenophile AND NOT{is in the same phenotype as: Your Empire }
10 IF has ethic: Xenophile AND Your Empire {has ethic: Xenophile OR has ethic: Fanatic Xenophile}
10 IF has ethic: Fanatic Xenophile AND Your Empire has ethic: Xenophile
20 IF has ethic: Fanatic Xenophile AND Your Empire has ethic: Fanatic Xenophile
Xenophobia
0
-20 IF has ethic: Xenophobe AND NOT{is in the same phenotype as: Your Empire }
-10 IF has ethic: Xenophobe AND is in the same phenotype as: Your Empire AND NOT{is the same species as: Your Empire } AND NOT{is subspecies of: Your Empire }
-5 IF has ethic: Xenophobe AND is in the same phenotype as: Your Empire AND NOT{is the same species as: Your Empire } AND is subspecies of: Your Empire
-40 IF has ethic: Fanatic Xenophobe AND NOT{is in the same phenotype as: Your Empire }
-20 IF has ethic: Fanatic Xenophobe AND is in the same phenotype as: Your Empire AND NOT{is the same species as: Your Empire } AND NOT{is subspecies of: Your Empire }
-10 IF has ethic: Fanatic Xenophobe AND is in the same phenotype as: Your Empire AND NOT{is the same species as: Your Empire } AND is subspecies of: Your Empire
Xenophilia
0
20 IF has ethic: Xenophile AND NOT{is in the same phenotype as: Your Empire }
10 IF has ethic: Xenophile AND is in the same phenotype as: Your Empire AND NOT{is the same species as: Your Empire } AND NOT{is subspecies of: Your Empire }
5 IF has ethic: Xenophile AND is in the same phenotype as: Your Empire AND NOT{is the same species as: Your Empire } AND is subspecies of: Your Empire
40 IF has ethic: Fanatic Xenophile AND NOT{is in the same phenotype as: Your Empire }
20 IF has ethic: Fanatic Xenophile AND is in the same phenotype as: Your Empire AND NOT{is the same species as: Your Empire } AND NOT{is subspecies of: Your Empire }
10 IF has ethic: Fanatic Xenophile AND is in the same phenotype as: Your Empire AND NOT{is the same species as: Your Empire } AND is subspecies of: Your Empire
Post by: Majestic7 on December 10, 2016, 12:40:30 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on December 10, 2016, 12:53:37 pm
I try to play as a pacifist xenophile, and some xenophobic/militaristic empire decides to go to war with one of my neighbours.
And why is this bad? Because I am allied with said neighbour. And I have nowhere near the ships/defences to fend off said aggressor.
It is almost as if the game forces me to play as a warmongerer.
Post by: Retropunch on December 10, 2016, 02:48:05 pm
It is almost as if the game forces me to play as a warmongerer.
It really does - mostly this is because there isn't a great deal to do other than warmonger. I mean there's no mechanics of 'soft power' at all - you can't do espionage or trade blockades or anything - the only influence you have on the outside world is going to war with them.
That's what I'm really hoping Banks changes.
Post by: Majestic7 on December 10, 2016, 04:19:51 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on December 10, 2016, 05:27:45 pm
There should really be inter-Federation politics and wrangling between Federations, maybe even traitor civs with Feds and so forth.
Ya--internal politics for pretty much everything are pretty sad for a Paradox game.
Post by: Tiruin on December 10, 2016, 08:31:21 pm
For people wondering when the game will become fun, this upcoming update seems like a good potential benchmark.I just want to earn the achievements :'( (I have fun the entire way though), but this doesn't happen because of spotty net! :/
But in between then and there, that's a tiny aside :P There's a ton of potential I'm seeing that...doesn't seem to be worked on much though? Still buggy in many minor ways for me. x_x But the potential being 'able to choose additional options like pre-FTL traits' or 'some character to other AI and actual pacifist victories than me building ships and fighting everyone' or 'communication with NPCs to learn that they really aren't sociable' or 'diplomacy power compared to war-faring power', because the trade screen is lacking nor would there be additional help being said in the tutorial if you've got vassals (you can't trade certain things from them but can trade to them, for example >_>).
Post by: Cruxador on December 11, 2016, 03:13:25 am
I remember it being a thing, I think in one of the (relatively low-numbered) dev diaries before release. It may have been changed before the game came out, because I don't remember encountering it in play either.The phenotypes do actually have an in-game effect: xenophiles/phobes like/dislike species of the same phenotype less, and those of different phenotypes more.I have never seen anything like this, and the wiki makes no mention of that being a thing.
Post by: George_Chickens on December 11, 2016, 03:17:59 am
It is almost as if the game forces me to play as a warmongerer.That's what I'm really hoping Banks changes.
In all honesty, knowing Paradox, it's probably just going to make warmongers more powerful. Like with provincial improvements (monarch points for increase in taxation/trade/military/etc) in EU4. If I remember right, they were designed so that you could build your empire upwards, rather than outwards, giving a bonus to small, anti-expansionist nations. In reality, it just made it so that expansionists have much more potential power.
Post by: Kot on December 11, 2016, 03:49:35 am
Making them have actual gameplay effects would...ah, be like having cultural_gfx sprites, portraits, and what-have-you in CK or EU have practical gameplay effects.Imagine the backslash if they did things like make Africans more fertile, Mongols more cruel, French more cowardly, Poles more GODLY MASTERRACE and gave every Russian an lunatic trait.
Post by: Majestic7 on December 11, 2016, 04:00:35 am
Post by: Retropunch on December 11, 2016, 07:59:07 am
In all honesty, knowing Paradox, it's probably just going to make warmongers more powerful. Like with provincial improvements (monarch points for increase in taxation/trade/military/etc) in EU4. If I remember right, they were designed so that you could build your empire upwards, rather than outwards, giving a bonus to small, anti-expansionist nations. In reality, it just made it so that expansionists have much more potential power.
Yeah I'm not holding my breath. I kinda imagine it'll just be a big ship update with bigger ships and more dakka.
Whilst that's all good to a point, there's many other 4x games that do combat better (SoaSE for example) and the place where this could have really shined is in the political/species interaction stuff as well as internal faction wrangling and stuff. They seem to be going slightly towards that direction, but I don't know if they'll do it enough.
Spies/espionage are a must before it feels complete though - I'm holding off playing until they start getting that sort of thing in.
Post by: Culise on December 15, 2016, 09:27:17 am
Spoiler: Unity and Traditions (click to show/hide)
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on December 15, 2016, 10:41:16 am
The first post after the dev diary: 'That's a pretty nice Civ 5 feature there.'
Great minds think alike...?
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 15, 2016, 10:55:51 am
Pre-FTL humans are Poles since they can not into space.
but Poland CAN into space. I've done it.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on December 15, 2016, 11:02:20 am
Post by: Retropunch on December 15, 2016, 12:19:16 pm
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-55-unity-and-traditions.988693/
Post by: Cruxador on December 15, 2016, 03:38:18 pm
My first thought after seeing this dev diary: 'This looks like culture and polices from Civ 5.'A good mechanic doesn't stop being good just because someone else did it first.
The first post after the dev diary: 'That's a pretty nice Civ 5 feature there.'
Great minds think alike...?
See also: Pretty much every advertised feature in Civ VI.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on December 15, 2016, 03:52:09 pm
I still like the culture stuff though. Another way to further develop and customize my empire.
Post by: Retropunch on December 15, 2016, 05:19:59 pm
Beaten by about 3 hours.
Saw it, but wanted to include the link to the actual post - copy pasting without linking is a personal pet peeve of mine - especially when the original post is so picture heavy.
Post by: Shadowlord on December 15, 2016, 05:30:50 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on December 15, 2016, 05:43:11 pm
Post by: lordcooper on December 15, 2016, 06:30:19 pm
Yeah. While there should be ways for a small empire to not be insta-crushed by larger ones without bought, bigger empire should be unquestionably better.
Wasn't the Soviet Union the second widest empire in all of recorded history?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on December 15, 2016, 06:32:15 pm
Post by: Retropunch on December 15, 2016, 06:38:47 pm
They did. The 'New dev diary is up' above the spoiler is a link.
Ahh it didn't seem to be when I first looked at it - might have been my browser messing up I suppose.
Post by: Flying Dice on December 15, 2016, 10:20:15 pm
The "best" should probably be a middle-ground empire, one that expands enough to have room for a good deal of growth without over-extending, which still has few enough worlds that it can effectively pump the density of a handful of them without totally neglecting everything else.
Basically, "tall" empires tend to face problems dealing with their relative lack of resources; they need to be far more effective at exploiting what they do have just to keep up. "Broad" empires don't really have many problems unless you seriously overextend, stuff like colonizing ten or twenty systems away from friendly territory in a hyperdrive-only campaign to secure key points, and do it in five different directions. "Broad" empires should face problems of consolidation and pacification. They've taken vast swaths of territory, it shouldn't be as easy for them to control it as it is for an empire with five systems to control their shit.
If you go big you should have to deal with big problems. At the moment, you don't. Instead you have to deal with the same little problems more times. If you're familiar with the civil war in the Terran Federation of the Starfire setting, that's an example of the sort of thing big empires should have to deal with: entire sectors of people who're so totally disconnected from the central government ethically, philosophically, and politically that they feel forced to revolt. This shit happens when travel times are limited to those possible on a single planet.
Post by: PTTG?? on December 15, 2016, 10:56:43 pm
But everything changed when the Fungoid Nation attacked.
Post by: NullForceOmega on December 15, 2016, 10:59:36 pm
Post by: ollobrains on December 15, 2016, 11:57:04 pm
Post by: Culise on December 16, 2016, 12:01:46 am
I for one would really enjoy a game with serious fractionalism and civil war as possiblities. I could imagine playing a huge galaxy with only two other AI empires. The first century or two is just the rise of Humanity. Might even need to switch when the Old Earth Directorate falls to the Republic of Interstellar Colonies. Eventually the power groups balance out, with Terra Sector being the old but developed power while the dynamism is all happening in the RIC, now in a fairly stable peaceful rivalry with the Church of the Stars, both trading with the neutral Deep Space Mining Conglomerate.Alternately, if you screw it up, Earth and the most-developed colonies pound each other into the stone age with relativistic weapons, leaving the newly-colonized and sparsely populated/developed periphery not only completely bereft of the support infrastructure it needed to get back into working order, but also the sole remaining bastion of humanity.
But everything changed when the Fungoid Nation attacked.
I would love to play that, actually. We just need sufficiently severe bombardment to actually be able to knock someone back to the stone age...
Post by: Shadowlord on December 16, 2016, 01:49:47 am
I would love to play that, actually. We just need sufficiently severe bombardment to actually be able to knock someone back to the stone age...
If you have colonies in other star systems, you probably have this capability.
Post by: Flying Dice on December 16, 2016, 07:44:40 am
I would love to play that, actually. We just need sufficiently severe bombardment to actually be able to knock someone back to the stone age...
If you have colonies in other star systems, you probably have this capability.
Think it was meant in-game. Orbital bombardment, even on full, does basically nothing to civilian populations. Even if we don't get planet-crackers I at least want it up to the standard of Aurora, where you can plaster population centers with antimatter bombs dropped from orbit or irradiate the place so badly that it takes centuries of terraforming to fix. Or use terraformers to pump the atmosphere full of chlorine gas or something.
Post by: Majestic7 on December 16, 2016, 07:59:38 am
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 16, 2016, 08:16:45 am
You only need to find a couple of rocks in the solar system, attach engines into them and send them towards the planet. Remember what happened to the dinosaurs? Yeah. That would be possible, in theory, with our present technology level. Destroying biospheres from space is easy. Destroying fortified positions without fucking everything up for generations is much harder.I remember reading once a calculation (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rocks_Are_Not_Free!) on how much that plan would cost the Imperium of Man, compared to an Exterminatus. Even conventional explosives might win the bidding competition; redirecting a large number of asteroids is very, very expensive.
Post by: PTTG?? on December 16, 2016, 12:57:24 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on December 18, 2016, 02:11:24 am
I for one would really enjoy a game with serious fractionalism and civil war as possiblities. I could imagine playing a huge galaxy with only two other AI empires. The first century or two is just the rise of Humanity. Might even need to switch when the Old Earth Directorate falls to the Republic of Interstellar Colonies. Eventually the power groups balance out, with Terra Sector being the old but developed power while the dynamism is all happening in the RIC, now in a fairly stable peaceful rivalry with the Church of the Stars, both trading with the neutral Deep Space Mining Conglomerate.It would definitely make a Fermi Paradox galaxy a lot more playable. And the galaxy more dynamic.
But everything changed when the Fungoid Nation attacked.
I prefer my space to be empty early on and then get multiple empires with many different species within them. I feel like it's more realistic - probably because I'm an optimist Xenophile who thinks friendly aliens are way cooler than green men abducting cattle and moms.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 18, 2016, 02:15:33 am
Post by: Flying Dice on December 18, 2016, 09:12:30 am
Post by: Majestic7 on December 19, 2016, 01:47:03 am
I finally tried playing a Spiritualist empire, by the way. Having that negative ethics drift is amazing, I just go and assimilate every minor civ since they will soon turn into my way of thinking anyway. There is the bonus from ethos, bonus from government form, bonus from Ministry of Benevolence and for really problematic planets, bonus from Mausoleum and/or Symbol.
Post by: Majestic7 on December 19, 2016, 03:53:34 am
You only need to find a couple of rocks in the solar system, attach engines into them and send them towards the planet. Remember what happened to the dinosaurs? Yeah. That would be possible, in theory, with our present technology level. Destroying biospheres from space is easy. Destroying fortified positions without fucking everything up for generations is much harder.I remember reading once a calculation (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rocks_Are_Not_Free!) on how much that plan would cost the Imperium of Man, compared to an Exterminatus. Even conventional explosives might win the bidding competition; redirecting a large number of asteroids is very, very expensive.
Destroying whole biosphere is expensive, but you only need one rock to fuck up a technological civilization. Just strap a couple of booster rockets into it, aim carefully and fire away. Orbital mechanics do the rest. Assuming the target space presence has been eliminated, there is nothing they can do to prevent the impact. You don't even need warships for the job.
Besides, using 40K for anything technologically plausible as a baseline is pretty stoopid when it is a game about thousand kilometer starships operating with manual slave labor. :D The setting was meant as a joke and works best with humor in mind, falling apart with any kind of critical inspection. I certainly enjoy WH40k, but only as a joke.
Post by: Neonivek on December 19, 2016, 04:27:38 am
Quote
The setting was meant as a joke and works best with humor in mind, falling apart with any kind of critical inspection
Actually that is a plot point!
Both Ork and Human technology runs on pure nonsense. In Ork's case it is that they psychically fuel their technology... in Human's case they do a similar yet different thing.
Post by: Flying Dice on December 25, 2016, 07:44:36 pm
I'm not sure exactly what it is, but some combination of the game updates, me giving myself and all random-gen empires six ethos points (rather than four), and a mod that adds additional AI empire attitudes has done some wonderful work.
We're all familiar with the standard experience, the two types of AI. There were all the strong assholes that invaded and annexed everything, and there were all the weak assholes that banded together into federations. Give a game a few decades and the entire map would consist of the former's super-blobs and the latter's federation-blobs.
I'm not getting that in my current campaign. Well, I'm getting lots of hostile assholes, but that's because I'm playing xenophobic fascist space elves. The AI-AI interactions have been really cool. In a 3500 star galaxy with ~30 starting empires and four fallen empires (no advanced start ones; they're all random-genned so they all get the increased ethos and trait points and slots to make them more distinct), there is either one or two federations, and it/they have only a handful of members. Two of the strongest blobs in the game are "federation-builder" types that instead took the conquest-through-diplomacy route by talking all of their neighbors into vassal status and then annexing them. Wars between AI happen regularly, but not at an incredibly high rate -- usually it's just two or three ongoing at any given time.
More importantly, remember what I said about playing xenophobic fascist space elves? I've got two fairly close allied empires who've backed me up and been backed up in turn. The kicker? They're also xenophobic military/spiritualist types, and they tend to be on the far side of my most hostile neighbors. That's a really interesting interaction that didn't seem to happen in my earlier campaigns.
However, it has also highlighted two problems: border friction is still fucking absurd, and there's no real allied state between mutual defense pacts and full federation. The former is more important. As I and one of my purging buddies took bites out of one of our rivals, we eventually had our respective territorial salients make contact. Instant -50 or some shit to our relations. I reiterate: border friction is fucked. We and they have been working together to exterminate inferior alien filth for over a century and the fact that we can now have our fleets wave at each other without needing to start a war against a common neighbor instantly nukes relations?
IMO border friction should be extremely minor unless two empires already have negative relations. Otherwise your allies are only safe if you federate (fuck that) or are on the opposite side of the galaxy (at which point why bother allying, it's not like you'll get military support).
Clearly my empire and theirs have some sort of mutual respect or understanding. Yeah, the other side are still xenos heretics, but they kick as much ass as we do and are equally honorable, so how about we meet in the middle and then start pushing out in other directions? LOLNOPEGOODBYRELATIONS
On an unrelated note, that common neighbor we've been attacking?
Spoiler: They ain't too popular with anyone at all, seems like (click to show/hide)
Post by: IronyOwl on December 25, 2016, 09:04:12 pm
IMO border friction should be extremely minor unless two empires already have negative relations. Otherwise your allies are only safe if you federate (fuck that) or are on the opposite side of the galaxy (at which point why bother allying, it's not like you'll get military support).I feel like a better (and infinitely less likely) solution would be more nuanced relationships than a series of flat modifiers. It makes perfect sense that two warmongering assholes would be more than a little upset at being bordered by a warmongering asshole, especially one with a history of proactive success in their field. It also makes sense that a century of successfully working together to cleanse the galaxy of its aberrant mistakes would make them ironically rather fond of each other. It also makes sense that a century of successfully working together to cleanse the galaxy of its aberrant mistakes would be building towards one final, large scale addition to that policy.
The game, at present, can recognize the first point and nothing else. Aside from a handful of decaying modifiers and limited diplomatic options, there's nothing to flavor your relationships with other empires. If your ethics are the same, evidently you get along. If your ethics are different, evidently you do not. You can't match ethics with somebody and be ultra best buddies on top of that, or become fanatical rivals over concepts most other empires don't even understand. You can't be xenophiles and value other species as equals, or treasure them as adorable pets. And in this case, you can't spend a century carving up the galaxy between yourself and a buddy until you two are the only ones left to carve, or until the galaxy is split between your two obviously worthy empires.
Unless the game can handle context like that, modifiers are always going to be kind of crude and deterministic, in the faith hates science therefore war kind of way.
Post by: Flying Dice on December 26, 2016, 12:11:47 am
They've got it set up so that there is only one possible way to realistically work together with other empires, and that's to join a federation... which sucks massively if you want to do things.
Never mind pipe dreams like being able to establish DMZs on your borders to reduce border tensions. If we could get self-sustaining starbases it'd be really cool to be able to build a shared one in a border system for a relations, and to give both empires sensor coverage of the border. Being able to give permission to allied empires to travel to/build wormhole stations in specific systems in your empire without giving them full access. Setting up civilian trade routes in the same way with civilian ships, tying that in to espionage. Allowing allies to build defensive stations in your systems if they've got good tech for it and you don't, being able to deploy agents to plant demolition charges on them or infiltrate their command structures so that if the alliance is ever broken you can destroy or capture them. Selling ships without giving away the relevant technologies (unless they dismantle the ship or it is destroyed).
Hey, I want to be able to fight proxy wars by supplying two-bit empires with advanced warships. But it ain't gonna happen. Very likely none of that will happen.
Post by: Majestic7 on December 27, 2016, 03:07:25 am
Regarding diplomacy, Banks will make internal politics and faction stuff more complicated and interesting. I presume the next patch after that will touch diplomacy and the interaction between factions & outside forces.
Post by: Ultimuh on January 12, 2017, 07:00:14 am
Apparently, we will have access to three new win conditions in the upcoming Banks (1.5) update.
A Biological path, Psionic path, and Synthetic path.
Each with their own requirements. And of course, all three are mutually exclusive.
Post by: Culise on January 12, 2017, 07:21:20 am
A new Dev Diary (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-56-ascension-perks.994061/) have been released.Ah. Um, I hate to ask, but it's probably just me being oblivious: where is it stated that these are win conditions? I thought they were just sort of....late-game "superprojects," so to speak. They even talk about how they have to adjust how finishing the synthetic path and going full synth will affect certain endgame crises (to wit, AI rebellion), and how each of the three will have unique mechanics (in a comment down-thread).
Apparently, we will have access to three new win conditions in the upcoming Banks (1.5) update.
A Biological path, Psionic path, and Synthetic path.
Each with their own requirements. And of course, all three are mutually exclusive.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 12, 2017, 07:31:22 am
Quote
The idea behind the Ascension Perks is to provide more unique unlockable features for Empires, and to provide the player with the ability to determine an 'endgame' for their species
Quote
Finally there are the three 'Species Endgame' paths:
Not technically 'win conditions' in the sense of something where you stop playing once you achieve them but they are late-game ultimate goals that you work towards for a long time and provide a significant benefit once achieved.
I don't use win conditions when I play games like this anyway
Post by: Ultimuh on January 12, 2017, 07:33:53 am
But still looking forward to that new update.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 12, 2017, 07:36:23 am
Post by: Majestic7 on January 12, 2017, 08:23:48 am
I presume it means political rights/laws per species.
Post by: Retropunch on January 12, 2017, 11:23:15 am
The more internal political stuff is a lot more interesting - I reallllllly hope they push the complexity with that stuff a lot.
Post by: Mephansteras on January 12, 2017, 11:54:51 am
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 12, 2017, 12:09:26 pm
Ugh. Picked this up over the winter sale and started playing recently. Just had my first game come to a crashing halt because of the Unbidden. Would be just fine, if my Federation members would actually help me instead of hanging around twiddling their thumbs as multiple 60k fleets stomp through my empire.
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa... Federations dont mean shit when it comes to wars really, unless it's YOU helping THEM, it's never the other way around.
Post by: Mephansteras on January 12, 2017, 12:20:03 pm
Post by: Iceblaster on January 12, 2017, 01:20:51 pm
which, funnily enough was my aar. w-which you guys should totally look at. not advertising, not at all :P
Post by: umiman on January 12, 2017, 02:17:40 pm
Allies not helping is a paradox problem in general.This is incorrect.
Allies are super reliable in CK2. In fact, they'll drag all their troops to help you even to their own detriment. It's why you can be some no-name loser count in Ireland, but if you somehow marry and forge an alliance with the Karlings, you can happily declare war on England as the Kaiser will bring all his troops to help you.
In Stellaris they are the same. They will bring all their troops to help you even if they don't have to. The only problem is that the Unbidden aren't "technically" at war with anyone so the AI doesn't register it as a conflict.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 12, 2017, 02:19:24 pm
Post by: Iceblaster on January 12, 2017, 02:20:23 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on January 13, 2017, 02:51:23 pm
Post by: Iceblaster on January 13, 2017, 02:56:53 pm
but what do I know :P
Post by: Flying Dice on January 13, 2017, 03:04:57 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on January 13, 2017, 03:07:13 pm
Though obviously there's a whole lot in Stellaris that isn't in that.
Post by: Iceblaster on January 13, 2017, 03:21:31 pm
Post by: Cruxador on January 13, 2017, 03:35:38 pm
I really wish the Stellaris dev team would talk to the Crusader Kings dev team. Maybe the way that sectors work would inherit some ideas from CK2. Maybe the option to play as a local governor under a massive empire would get imported. Heck, maybe the option to castrate pops and marry your aunt-sister to preserve your genetics would get inherited.I'm pretty sure they're aware of CK2. They just decided not to emulate it because they're such badasses that hey can make a better game without reference to anything else.
Well, we saw how that worked out and there's a different lead designer now, but some decisions are too entrenched to change even this easily. Factions are getting a workover, and that'll do part of what's gained by a CK2-like system, but making a system whereby you can (and have a reason to want to) play as a vassal or other underling? Probably not in the cards.
Post by: Mephansteras on January 13, 2017, 05:08:19 pm
Started up a new game as millitant bug people and have gone around conquering all of the primitive civs that I find. Some of them are garbage and worthy only of slavehood. Others have some good traits and will make worthy scientist underlings.
My first sector only has slave fodder, so I set it to allow slavery.
My second sector had multiple science gifted races. However, since it defaulted to slavery on after the first sector ALL of them got enslaved immediately. I quickly realized my mistake and set enslavement off for the sector, but they're all still enslaved. Even the ones dedicated to science tasks, moronically.
Which means I now have to take those planets back and fix them, one by one, and give them back to the sector to control.
What a pain. :(
Post by: EuchreJack on January 13, 2017, 11:36:29 pm
I really wish the Stellaris dev team would talk to the Crusader Kings dev team. Maybe the way that sectors work would inherit some ideas from CK2. Maybe the option to play as a local governor under a massive empire would get imported. Heck, maybe the option to castrate pops and marry your aunt-sister to preserve your genetics would get inherited.I'm pretty sure they're aware of CK2. They just decided not to emulate it because they're such badasses that hey can make a better game without reference to anything else.
Well, we saw how that worked out and there's a different lead designer now, but some decisions are too entrenched to change even this easily. Factions are getting a workover, and that'll do part of what's gained by a CK2-like system, but making a system whereby you can (and have a reason to want to) play as a vassal or other underling? Probably not in the cards.
I generally just acknowledge that Stellaris compares to Europa Universalis rather than CK2 and move on.
...although stealing a few ideas from CK2 regarding vassals banding together and overthrowing their lord, plus harder limits on Sector management, with Empire-exploding events, would certain fix that.
Post by: umiman on January 14, 2017, 03:10:52 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 14, 2017, 10:18:00 am
Post by: Iceblaster on January 14, 2017, 10:22:38 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 14, 2017, 10:46:08 am
The point of the vats is to make armies though. I always imagined it to be like the Clones in Star Wars. Basically cloned with top of the line DNA to make an entire army of top of the line soldiers. The process is too fast to really make viable long term citizens, but it is long enough to have a batch ready in a few weeks.None of that makes any sense; my spacefaring civilization that has longevity serums and genetic modification capabilities allowing my citizens to drastically extend their lifespans or become new species entirely is capable of rearing elite clone soldiers that can be sent forth to fight all across the galaxy, but are incapable of producing fertile pairs?! I can populate a barren irradiated world with starving, short-lived mass reproducing colonists, power their shipyards with black hole generators but a fertile clone pair is insurmountable?! I can create a valid legion of clone soldiers, but a clone farmer is an impossible redirection of their skills? You could even give them a lil' clone trait to mark them from the rest of the populace and introduce such things as clone rights. Equal citizens, or walking organ donors, or CK2 elite?
Post by: Iceblaster on January 14, 2017, 10:54:48 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 14, 2017, 11:14:36 am
Post by: Teneb on January 14, 2017, 11:20:04 am
On the assumption that a single pop is something like a billion actual people, a cloning facility that could pump out 1 clone per second would take 31 years to make a popIt is probably closer to a million. Otherwise Earth would be a 10 tile planet or something along those lines, as we are getting a bit too close for comfort to overpopulation.
Post by: Iceblaster on January 14, 2017, 11:21:35 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 14, 2017, 11:22:15 am
so there are only 16 million people on earth by 2100? What terrible things happened?On the assumption that a single pop is something like a billion actual people, a cloning facility that could pump out 1 clone per second would take 31 years to make a popIt is probably closer to a million. Otherwise Earth would be a 10 tile planet or something along those lines, as we are getting a bit too close for comfort to overpopulation.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 14, 2017, 11:26:57 am
I think what it is is that a population is an arbitrary number not really made to be converted into real life.My point was that it would be somewhat impractical to populate a planet with clones. You'd have to turn out hundreds of thousands of them a second to get a significant population and then that pop wouldn't be able to breed more pops and would eventually die off.
Post by: Sirus on January 14, 2017, 11:29:10 am
I think what it is is that a population is an arbitrary number not really made to be converted into real life.Probably. It's probably more likely that each plot is a few thousand square kilometers dedicated to one form of production or another, and the pops are whatever arbitrary population required to work in that area.
Post by: Iceblaster on January 14, 2017, 11:43:53 am
Post by: umiman on January 14, 2017, 01:43:55 pm
Yeah, it can't be a million.so there are only 16 million people on earth by 2100? What terrible things happened?On the assumption that a single pop is something like a billion actual people, a cloning facility that could pump out 1 clone per second would take 31 years to make a popIt is probably closer to a million. Otherwise Earth would be a 10 tile planet or something along those lines, as we are getting a bit too close for comfort to overpopulation.
I don't think a pop is a static number.
A colony ship delivers one pop. I doubt that's a billion, unless those are some huge-ass colony ships. It's probably something like representing anywhere between 1 million - 1 billion people.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 14, 2017, 01:50:01 pm
Scale in video games gets weird.
Post by: Iceblaster on January 14, 2017, 01:53:22 pm
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 14, 2017, 02:21:30 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on January 14, 2017, 02:23:34 pm
You just make more clones and no more worry about inbreeding. No one is shagging.
Have you forgotten http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/The_Other_Side
Post by: Iceblaster on January 14, 2017, 02:33:32 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 14, 2017, 10:30:51 pm
Yeaaah. It goes back to what I said. A pop of cloned pops should either not exist or have some way to model the lack of genetic diversity required to not become inbred hellholes :P
What if we cloned multiple people instead of just one person many times?
Essentially, the entire population of a planet is cloned exactly once, the clones are placed on a colony ship*, then they are dumped on a new planet, and those clones breed like normal from then on. No genetic diversity issue. Also extremely useful.
*Actually, since colony ships in Stellaris do not reduce the population or growth rate of the planet from which they're taken, the above is probably already happening on a smaller scale. Where else could the population on the colony ship be coming from?
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on January 14, 2017, 11:16:21 pm
Well since Planetary Unification is a tech, it's possible that like Galactic Civs, that more people are apply for citizenship to get off the planet.Yeaaah. It goes back to what I said. A pop of cloned pops should either not exist or have some way to model the lack of genetic diversity required to not become inbred hellholes :P-snip-
*Actually, since colony ships in Stellaris do not reduce the population or growth rate of the planet from which they're taken, the above is probably already happening on a smaller scale. Where else could the population on the colony ship be coming from?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on January 14, 2017, 11:22:50 pm
Ah yes, the space Nazis.You just make more clones and no more worry about inbreeding. No one is shagging.
Have you forgotten http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/The_Other_Side
Or: "Every Stellaris player ever"
Post by: LASD on January 15, 2017, 05:28:15 am
Ah yes, the space Nazis.You just make more clones and no more worry about inbreeding. No one is shagging.
Have you forgotten http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/The_Other_Side
Or: "Every Stellaris player ever"
Nooo, I'm a regular old space Hippie. I want everyone to come along for a great peaceful ride of exploring and colonizing the galaxy and love each other equally, no matter where they are from, what they look like and what their views are. Except for the Space Nazis, those guys can get ripped to pieces by my Xeno Armies.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 15, 2017, 01:35:06 pm
Inbreeding! Assuming a pop represents a large number of people, it means that just one pop having the clone trait, you still have the problem of inbreeding. What happens when the previously recessive traits that wouldn't come about in a normal setting begin to rise up after maybe a few generations?Well for starters, who said we'd only be using a single Adam and Eve pair to be the entirety of the clone populace? I was thinking more in line with The Island or Brave New World where the function is to create massive populations of viable pops, which is easily done with the ethics and technology available to Stellaris. This isn't hypothetical, the cloning vats are already in game, already producing millions of viable legions, already has technology to screen for and modify DNA at will, already has gene databases, selected lineages, even commercial gene modification available on a pop-wide level to the point where they can modify themselves, - assuming we did not clone from a diverse array of genetic stock, we could start with a single pair of Adam and Eves, clone them ad infinitum and subsequently modify their DNAs to create entirely new species or merely cause more genetic variation. That's just for human understandings of DNA, who knows how xenospecies work - it's ludicrous to say that my fungoid civilization is not allowed to clone itself in vats because of genetics, when it reproduces asexually. Humans would only need a minimum of 80 clone pairs to found planet colonies from clone vats. (https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1936-magic-number-for-space-pioneers-calculated/) Insectoid species, DNA modding species, plantoids and you get the point - could probably get away with far fewer, even just 1 pair. If my species is a strictly hierarchical genetically conformist but short lived beetle species for example, I would want to exaggerate their conformity, whilst any genetic diseases they would incur would be of no issue, as the drones would be infertile anyways.
Point being, it makes no sense.
On the assumption that a single pop is something like a billion actual people, a cloning facility that could pump out 1 clone per second would take 31 years to make a popIf you made that assumption, however you could also make the assumption that each pop is 1 trillion people or it is exactly 1 person. Relevant:
Quote from: https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/4h9gc5/how_many_people_does_a_pop_represent/
It's been stated by the devs themselves that it's an abstracted figure with no direct conversion. The most likely interpretation, if you must make one, is that it's exponentially increasing like for example:Thus a normal human colony pod can be expected to contain 50,000 people, under this assumption. A clone legion is created by one cloning vat in 30 days, it is said in their description they reach adult maturity in months and have natural lifespans of less than a decade. On this basis a science vessel could with its skeleton crew of scientists set up cloning vats on a planet and create the first pop shorter than the time it would take for the 50,000 in a normal human colony pod to set up. Combine that with gene screening technology, artificial life enhancement and a simple process of expansion (if one cloning vat factory can produce 10,000 elite soldiers in one month, soldiers that reach adult reproductive maturity in a matter of months (you know, cutting short 15 years of human puberty)), imagine what could be done with two cloning vats. Then keep adding more and more cloning vats.
1: 50.000
2: 250.000
3: 1,25 million
And so on. The initial settlers will be more productive, like mining crews in Siberia, The outback of Australia and Northern Canada produce extreme amounts with a few tens of thousands of workers.
As population increases, more people will have more service oriented jobs.
As it stands the spiritualists can crank out babies through the power of fiery fertile sermons. For everyone else, there remains no efficient, industrial ability to mass produce one's own citizens, despite all the technology for such mass production already being in the game. This is especially jarring for hive mind species who have no qualms with eradicating their neighbours and replacing them with their own species, yet balk at cloning vats for all except a military usage. I wish for there to be more depth to the gene modding :|
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 15, 2017, 01:59:23 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 15, 2017, 02:04:00 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 15, 2017, 07:49:06 pm
It is odd that you can pump up fertility to absurd levels to get biopops but there is no way to speed up the industrial production of synthetic pops or robots
And prejudice against the non-biological citizens continues!
Post by: Teneb on January 15, 2017, 08:51:56 pm
Let's kill all humans.It is odd that you can pump up fertility to absurd levels to get biopops but there is no way to speed up the industrial production of synthetic pops or robotsAnd prejudice against the non-biological citizens continues!
Erm. I mean. I am totally a human. Yes. Beep boop.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on January 15, 2017, 09:04:36 pm
Let's kill all humans.It is odd that you can pump up fertility to absurd levels to get biopops but there is no way to speed up the industrial production of synthetic pops or robotsAnd prejudice against the non-biological citizens continues!
Erm. I mean. I am totally a human. Yes. Beep boop.
What are these 'humans' you speak of? Some new insignificant race crawling out of their backwards ball of mud out into the civilized galaxy? I'm sure they'll never amount to anything.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 15, 2017, 09:15:44 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on January 15, 2017, 09:32:22 pm
What are these 'humans' you speak of? Some new insignificant race crawling out of their backwards ball of mud out into the civilized galaxy? I'm sure they'll never amount to anything.
The world belongs to Yax Kalockians. All other species are just keeping their planets warm for the might of the Yax Kalockian core worlds.I'm not sure what either of these are, but some thorough probing of their many, many orifices should remedy that. Thorough probing of something's many, many orifices remedies most things.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 15, 2017, 10:58:52 pm
I'm not sure what either of these are, but some thorough probing of their many, many orifices should remedy that. Thorough probing of something's many, many orifices remedies most things.This is why no one invites the ayy lmao federation to interstellar councils
Post by: Cruxador on January 16, 2017, 06:34:01 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 16, 2017, 10:02:02 pm
Post by: Culise on January 17, 2017, 12:01:21 am
Post by: Retropunch on January 17, 2017, 01:08:07 pm
I just think it's kind of dumb that taking any of the first-level traits locks out the other two. The second-level traits are obviously mutually exclusive, but there's nothing wrong with a genetically modified psionic cyborg.
I guess it's kinda a balance issue. Whilst normally I'd say balance should take a backseat on fun, I can imagine it might be one way in which Stellaris will finally start differentiating between civilisations more. At the moment, it's frustrating having every civilisation being pretty much the same by mid-game.
It'd also allow interesting late game groupings with all the synthetics sticking together and so on. I'd also like to see a non-ascension path/some rewards for not ascending. This would probably be best done by having some strong negative modifiers for ascension along with the bonuses.
I'm sure anything like that can be modded around with, but I'd be happy to have some more diversity, even if it would slightly limit player freedom.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 17, 2017, 01:15:23 pm
They are aware of paths to ascension but by and large have little interest in them. Hell they mostly don't even prolong their own lives too much, even though they have the technology to do so. Most of them see death as the end result of a life well lived.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 17, 2017, 03:09:15 pm
Post by: Descan on January 17, 2017, 03:58:38 pm
but then i'm biased
Post by: Rolan7 on January 17, 2017, 04:07:04 pm
I was thinking that too. Like humanity in the Culture series, who made some minor alterations to themselves but remained by and large human. They turned over governance to machine minds so they could pursue pleasures and cultural pursuits but they are in no way seeking transcendence, ascendance, evolutionary advancement, etc. They really just sort of want to live and have fun.Not to start a morality debate or anything, but hedonism isn't exactly *wrong*.
They are aware of paths to ascension but by and large have little interest in them. Hell they mostly don't even prolong their own lives too much, even though they have the technology to do so. Most of them see death as the end result of a life well lived.
It just feels wrong sometimes. If you can fix that, I guess that's one way to win.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 17, 2017, 04:20:39 pm
Not to start a morality debate or anything, but hedonism isn't exactly *wrong*.Foreman Domai pls, Eudaimonia will not defeat the cybernetics
It just feels wrong sometimes. If you can fix that, I guess that's one way to win.
Hedonism is exactly wrong, Romans sticking their dick in everything and eating to the point of vomiting is not an example to be followed. Albeit, I want that to be an option in Stellaris - got an unhappy pop that is constantly rebelling? Flood them with stimulants or hook their brain up to a matrix that is just non-stop sensory overloads and then bring them back to mainstream populace. If they want a return to the virtual paradise, they'll have to work extra hard and loyally - this system would make for immensely effective control of even the most rebellious of populaces. Unless of course their traits or ethics make them particularly resistant to such methods, which would add more dimensions to all the xenospecies responding to the same carrots as is.
Also rather disappointed that you can't brave new world all your pops yet. Interactions are all rather basic
AND NO CLONES D:
On that note, working towards more end-game civilization development would be rather neat, though I should hope there are more than a mere three. Having all xenospecies start off on the same footing with traits so meaningless they might as well all just be the same species reskinned and then having those species diverge into three groups is pretty underwhelming to say the least. Why not just have more exaggerated trait development possible and have more trait points at start, with civs starting at different tech levels? Then with even just three final endgame states, oh snap would there be some serious flavour to each different species
Post by: Rolan7 on January 17, 2017, 04:34:00 pm
Just, it assumes everyone wants to listen to that inherent need to excel. What happens to those who don't?
Since this is Alpha Centauri, do they receive stimulants until they have sufficient drive- or die?
I'd understand. But by putting one's potential above their desires, it actually just puts the many over the individual.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 17, 2017, 05:03:00 pm
I usually went cybernetic, for obvious benefits in any direction. But eudaimonia is a beautiful concept also. Really.Eudaimonia + Clinical Immortality + Human Genome project
Winning combination
I like to think it accurately represents just how much of a technological, financial and industrial powerhouse a human faction could become with citizens living for hundreds of years in a society orientated around self-actualization and happiness. Cloning vats + Planetary transit system + Thought control + power + fundamentalist + Miriam always has a special place in my heart though, turns her faction from a backwards mess into a late game monstrosity engulfing the entire map in a sea of believers. Which I think adds to my argument for cloning vats in Stellaris producing pops; if materialists and individualists can industrially produce citizens Brave New World style or a more Soviet style, then imagine what the militant spiritualists could get up to!
Just, it assumes everyone wants to listen to that inherent need to excel. What happens to those who don't?When you've got such a system in place you can literally force them to learn stuff and have fun. Otherwise I guess there's always just keeping them complacent and drugged out of their minds. Stellaris currently has pacifying drugs you can administer in aerosol forms via special resource industry but it'd be neater to see an expansion on that stuff
Since this is Alpha Centauri, do they receive stimulants until they have sufficient drive- or die?
I'd understand. But by putting one's potential above their desires, it actually just puts the many over the individual.
Quote
The happy life is thought to be one of excellence; now an excellent life requires exertion, and does not consist in amusement. If Eudaimonia, or happiness, is activity in accordance with excellence, it is reasonable that it should be in accordance with the highest excellence; and this will be that of the best thing in us.I suppose it depends on who's doing the eudaimonia. Yang would force you to be happy and reach your full potential same way he forces people to give up their selfishness to embrace the collective good whilst Morgan would incentivize you with objectivism and market incentives and Lal would just cover everything in bureaucracy and education. Stimulants may or may not be a component of this, though I suppose individuals who reject the virtual paradise would, after some extreme withdrawal, either die or become some sort of outsider. From there they'll be able to do whatever outside the system. The Buddha's a useful example I think, starting off in his own virtual paradise, growing discomforted, becoming an ascetic before finding a middle path
Aristotle (Alpha Centauri quote for Eudaimonia)
Post by: Rolan7 on January 17, 2017, 05:53:58 pm
Like the game suggests, it's the life I would choose. If I could choose the way I feel fulfilled. A life fulfilled by work appears inherently more satisfying than one fulfilled by the various vices we've created.I usually went cybernetic, for obvious benefits in any direction. But eudaimonia is a beautiful concept also. Really.Eudaimonia + Clinical Immortality + Human Genome project
Winning combination
I like to think it accurately represents just how much of a technological, financial and industrial powerhouse a human faction could become with citizens living for hundreds of years in a society orientated around self-actualization and happiness.
And there is a glorious pleasure found in hard work which I hope to achieve again, someday. Something that no amount of sordid dalliance is replacing. Oh, I long for my lost job!
But I had an exceptional job, and am now a bohemian on a budget. If the two feel almost equal, what does that say?
Which all is all merely speculation Personal. Obviously the eudaimonia is better for society. But any society must make the case to their citizens for such philanthropism. AKA, collectivism.
Cloning vats + Planetary transit system + Thought control + power + fundamentalist + Miriam always has a special place in my heart though, turns her faction from a backwards mess into a late game monstrosity engulfing the entire map in a sea of believers. Which I think adds to my argument for cloning vats in Stellaris producing pops; if materialists and individualists can industrially produce citizens Brave New World style or a more Soviet style, then imagine what the militant spiritualists could get up to!It truly is an amazing game, isn't it? Even, maybe especially, while steamrolling. Though much like CK2, all the real difficulty is frontloaded.
Miriam being relatively weak lategame, but strong early game - and that's what matters. Unless you convince the others to let you be (fairly manageable with AIs).
Faction is surprisingly important in lategame too, but less "Will I win". More "How will I win" (or lose).
That's what I mean by stimulants. Drugs to force people to perform.Just, it assumes everyone wants to listen to that inherent need to excel. What happens to those who don't?When you've got such a system in place you can literally force them to learn stuff and have fun. Otherwise I guess there's always just keeping them complacent and drugged out of their minds. Stellaris currently has pacifying drugs you can administer in aerosol forms via special resource industry but it'd be neater to see an expansion on that stuffSince this is Alpha Centauri, do they receive stimulants until they have sufficient drive- or die?
I'd understand. But by putting one's potential above their desires, it actually just puts the many over the individual.
Not necessarily wrong, particularly if they're willing. It's just that the purpose is to glorify the state.
With the right drugs, that might even optimize the individual's happiness. But that happiness is only an aside - the state, production, comes first in Eudaimonia.
Heh, that's why the Hive is so terrifying. Yang's not wrong. He gets painted as the bad guy in the short stories, and by Lal, and honestly it would be unspeakably horrifying to live there... When the state failed, and correction was needed.QuoteThe happy life is thought to be one of excellence; now an excellent life requires exertion, and does not consist in amusement. If Eudaimonia, or happiness, is activity in accordance with excellence, it is reasonable that it should be in accordance with the highest excellence; and this will be that of the best thing in us.I suppose it depends on who's doing the eudaimonia. Yang would force you to be happy and reach your full potential same way he forces people to give up their selfishness to embrace the collective good whilst Morgan would incentivize you with objectivism and market incentives and Lal would just cover everything in bureaucracy and education. Stimulants may or may not be a component of this, though I suppose individuals who reject the virtual paradise would, after some extreme withdrawal, either die or become some sort of outsider. From there they'll be able to do whatever outside the system. The Buddha's a useful example I think, starting off in his own virtual paradise, growing discomforted, becoming an ascetic before finding a middle path
Aristotle (Alpha Centauri quote for Eudaimonia)
But he isn't evil. He's state over all.
Post by: Flying Dice on January 17, 2017, 06:22:43 pm
That's why the simple pleasures are vastly more common: they're relatively easy to obtain.
For my part I could live with ethical hedonism-or limited hedonism, if you prefer, in which the pursuit of pleasure is leashed by social obligation to other persons: if what you want to do would cause meaningful harm to another, don't do it. Otherwise go for it. The Roman hedonists were fucked up because they (broadly speaking) lacked the awareness that pleasures are more satisfying when not overindulged in. It's a truism that too much of anything is bad for good gorram reason, after all.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 17, 2017, 06:23:31 pm
From his quotes, Yang seems to be what happens when you allow a Taoist philosopher to be infected with utilitarian pragmatism. Such as in that one where he encourages people to rebel against him for the sake of their own self-enlightenment.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 17, 2017, 06:41:13 pm
Like the game suggests, it's the life I would choose. If I could choose the way I feel fulfilled. A life fulfilled by work appears inherently more satisfying than one fulfilled by the various vices we've created.Complete concurrence; I have not met anyone who was pleased merely with pleasant experiences, whilst I have met many, myself included, who have found true contentedness in creating goals and achieving them. There is something peculiar about modern man, that when people have breaks and holidays, their recreation is itself a simulation of work. Seamanship, gardening, amateur craftsmanship, amateur athletics, outdoorsmanship, the humanities and so on. That path seems to satisfy a great deal many people, and is useful in that they do not necessarily have end points, no "final goals," only the limit of imagination and limits of reality. I suppose then eudaimonia does its best to remove those limits, though with some pressure or structure to avoid people becoming neets.
Obviously the eudaimonia is better for society. But any society must make the case to their citizens for such philanthropism. AKA, collectivism.I dunno, eudaimonia is awesome for the individual man but cybernetic and thought control both bring mankind to a new phase in evolution; one that is peaked when mankind fuses with planet (really, I always thought of the ending as a fusion of eudaimonia, cybernetic and thought control). Everyone is functionally immortal, can choose to become one with the planetmind or live as an individual, everyone is a transcended being of some sort and technology is a facilitator of this whole process of fusion. Pretty optimistic really, also showcases how hybridizing the separate paths can create neat and diverse stuff. A psionic supergenemod cyborg should be well within the realm of possibility, and it's fun as all hell
It truly is an amazing game, isn't it? Even, maybe especially, while steamrolling. Though much like CK2, all the real difficulty is frontloaded.I'd argue that Miriam is nearly worthless early game, and by the midgame she's either in a position to win or is soon to be horribly exterminated by the first faction to gain aerospace tech and chemical weapons :P
Miriam being relatively weak lategame, but strong early game - and that's what matters. Unless you convince the others to let you be (fairly manageable with AIs).
Early game she does no research first 5 years, and until she gets formers she can't use her +2 support to field infinite terraforming units for a gargantuan economy and without probe teams she can't balance out her tech disparity with hostile factions. Probe teams require a tier 2 knowledge tech which takes a lot of time to get to, in that time window she can easily be destroyed by Gaian mindworms or Spartan rovers. Once she's got probe teams though (and before needlejets are out), any time someone fields a superior prototype she can just steal it and reverse engineer/mass produce it. All in all she's a very unbalanced faction, which requires constant activity to remain competitive - quite the opposite of a more balanced faction like Zhakarov who can sit in his bases being a hypernerd :D
Faction is surprisingly important in lategame too, but less "Will I win". More "How will I win" (or lose).Also some factions are more suited to certain late game social engineering. Stellaris could learn much from SMAC, which managed to have more variance with one species than Stellaris has with RNG species. Game mechanics more than game portraits and word soup is important
That's what I mean by stimulants. Drugs to force people to perform.I'm not sure if you can drug people into forcing them to perform, though in Stellaris you could certainly keep them happy, docile and increase their performance. With things like neural implants which are implied to limit free will (neural processing centres for slaver empires) it seems like Stellaris can stop people from doing stuff, but outside of hive mind species cannot compel them to do something (beyond usual, crude methods like force, or sophisticated methods of persuasion or psionics).
Not necessarily wrong, particularly if they're willing. It's just that the purpose is to glorify the state.I don't think it's particularly right or all that different from genetically modifying people to be loyal, willingness is not something I consider to much regard in questions of morality - if one wills their own destruction, is it to be encouraged for example? That is a question relevant even outside of SMAC and in the modern world now that I think on it. SMAC was a great game for this reason, very relevant to RL - it still kills me that the game came with a recommended reading list.
With the right drugs, that might even optimize the individual's happiness. But that happiness is only an aside - the state, production, comes first in Eudaimonia.
Heh, that's why the Hive is so terrifying. Yang's not wrong. He gets painted as the bad guy in the short stories, and by Lal, and honestly it would be unspeakably horrifying to live there... When the state failed, and correction was needed.Yang isn't state over all, all the factions aren't states (I suppose Lal comes closest for trying to emulate a supranational entity). It's hard to pinpoint exactly what Yang is, he really is his own person, you can compare him to others in fiction or reality but he is just Yang at the end of the day. The funny thing is I don't think it would be horrifying to live under Yang's regime, everyone has mastered their own minds to the point where suffering is no longer a meaningful concept, everyone has meaning in the greater collective, all their material needs are met by the feeding bays and for those who cannot stand the strict regimen, they are nerve stapled or replaced with genejacks that are biologically incapable of rationalizing their existence or registering pain.
But he isn't evil. He's state over all.
I don't think there are bad guys in SMAC, certainly some more immoral than others, but no bad guys - the militiaristic factions like Santiago, Miriam, Yang and Deidre and the more erratic and civic factions like Morgan, Lal and Zhakarov all just have drastically different views of where human civilization and the human species must go. I think this is a natural consequence of having one visionary leader who lives for centuries; such leaders must not just be thinking about what policies to win the next election, no, they're thinking about where to direct human evolution.
The point that I typically see made is that Yang and the Hive are basically a hypocrisy trap. Lots of people like the idea of transcendence, but what faction is most like that and most philosophically compatible with it? That's right, the Hive.And the gaians
From his quotes, Yang seems to be what happens when you allow a Taoist philosopher to be infected with utilitarian pragmatism. Such as in that one where he encourages people to rebel against him for the sake of their own self-enlightenment.Where does he encourage people to rebel against him? Seems to be the opposite, right down to the recycling tanks
Post by: Sirus on January 17, 2017, 06:44:05 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 17, 2017, 07:07:08 pm
The Gaians live in harmony with Planet, but they don't truly understand what it means, they're just trying not to fuck up again like with Earth. Only in the late tech quotes does Deidre start to understand the nature of transcendence, while Yang is unknowingly aiming for almost exactly that form of society from the start, where one is one's self but also strengthens the whole.The point that I typically see made is that Yang and the Hive are basically a hypocrisy trap. Lots of people like the idea of transcendence, but what faction is most like that and most philosophically compatible with it? That's right, the Hive.And the gaians
Quote
Where does he encourage people to rebel against him? Seems to be the opposite, right down to the recycling tanks
Quote from: Yang, Essays on Mind and Matter
What do I care for your suffering? Pain, even agony, is no more than information before the senses, data fed to the computer of the mind. The lesson is simple: you have received the information, now act on it. Take control of the input and you shall become master of the output.It's up for interpretation like most things in AC and especially regarding Yang, but I consider "now act on it" and telling them to master the output as encouraging rebellion, in the sense that it is necessary for their enlightenment of purpose. He's daring them to become like him, I suspect Yang is the type to wryly respect those who defy him even as he moves to have them nerve stapled and recycled. This is yet another instance of how the Hive is a weird synthesis of individualist and collectivist thought, rather than just the dictatorship it often appears as.
You first play the game, and everybody's all about Zhakarov and Lal or maybe Morgan for conventional understandings of science, humanity, and prosperity. Then you realize Deidre is right because of transcendence. Then you realize Miriam is right because this is the end of anything recognizable as humanity even if you don't transcend. And then finally, you realize Yang of all people had the clearest understanding all along.
Guys, can we get back to talking about this game instead of something from 10+ years ago?Complaining about derails is worse than derails also haha what game OOOOWEEOOOOOOOOO~
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 17, 2017, 07:33:25 pm
The Gaians live in harmony with Planet, but they don't truly understand what it means, they're just trying not to fuck up again like with Earth. Only in the late tech quotes does Deidre start to understand the nature of transcendence, while Yang is unknowingly aiming for almost exactly that form of society from the start, where one is one's self but also strengthens the whole.The Gaians may not understand what it means, but certainly Lady Deidre Skye does. And she is guiding the Gaians towards that final goal, from the start she is the one who makes headways into psionic warfare, mindworm-human communication, planet-human communication, social engineering for psionic hippytopia, detachment from materialism to the point of nudism etc.
I think the thing that separates Yang from Deidre is that Deidre's transcendence goal requires Planet. Yang guides his faction to it regardless of Planet.
I always thought this was much more to do with self-mastery, reminding his faction's pops that pain and agony is just another sensation altogether. Mind and matter, mind can win over matter - especially in light of his later essays where he says that enlightenment is not won through force of strength, but force of willpower. He is cultivating in his people the willpower needed to transcend the biological impulses and limitations inherent in human nature, the nature of being both nothing more than chemical processes, and the nature of being life. Couple that with the video accompanying the quote where a man is suspended with sinister spikes whirling around him, he calms, mastering his sensory input - his narrow chamber becomes an endless sky. Acting on it never once meant to me a message of rebellion, rather, a message of mastering the information output in the mind responding to the information input from the senses. The senses register pain and agony, how the mind responds is up to you. It helps that before I heard his quote I read some scientific journals regarding the curious ways pain works. If you stub your toe and you swear, this helps you to cope with pain. If you respond to your pain in such a way that you think more on the pain, the effect of the pain is magnified. If you focus on your task regardless of pain, you can push your body to breaking point in order to achieve a task - and in Yang's world, push it beyond breaking point.Quote from: Yang, Essays on Mind and MatterWhat do I care for your suffering? Pain, even agony, is no more than information before the senses, data fed to the computer of the mind. The lesson is simple: you have received the information, now act on it. Take control of the input and you shall become master of the output.It's up for interpretation like most things in AC and especially regarding Yang, but I consider "now act on it" and telling them to master the output as encouraging rebellion, in the sense that it is necessary for their enlightenment of purpose. He's daring them to become like him, I suspect Yang is the type to wryly respect those who defy him even as he moves to have them nerve stapled and recycled. This is yet another instance of how the Hive is a weird synthesis of individualist and collectivist thought, rather than just the dictatorship it often appears as.
You first play the game, and everybody's all about Zhakarov and Lal or maybe Morgan for conventional understandings of science, humanity, and prosperity. Then you realize Deidre is right because of transcendence. Then you realize Miriam is right because this is the end of anything recognizable as humanity even if you don't transcend. And then finally, you realize Yang of all people had the clearest understanding all along.I think it's ambiguous who was right in the end, certainly Deidre wins but who was right? Who knows
I do like though that for so many the experience is the same. The moral inversion, who quickly you change your views on characters... Snap! Like that. Miriam "we must dissent" Godwinson and Deidre "our secret war" Skye always gets me.
Complaining about derails is worse than derails also haha what game OOOOWEEOOOOOOOOO~I think it's useful comparing an old game that managed to properly diversify a handful of factions better than Stellaris which can have so many different civilizations all blend into one starmap of dominions, federations, kingdoms, core worlds and cereal bowls of blandness
Post by: Rolan7 on January 17, 2017, 07:42:58 pm
soon to be horribly exterminated by the first faction to gain aerospace tech and chemical weapons :PDoesn't this apply to everyone :P Hence why the University, and even the Gaians, are OP as hell-
In the late game.
Where the research or efficiency lets them get aerospace first and, pardon my french, freakin pwn.
Guys, can we get back to talking about this game instead of something from 10+ years ago?Like this game will be relevant in 2 years, or known of in 4.
Post by: Sirus on January 17, 2017, 08:06:58 pm
If Alpha Centauri is such a great game, give it its own thread.
Post by: Cruxador on January 18, 2017, 01:19:19 am
In that amount of time, it might become almost as interesting to talk about as Alpha Centauri.Guys, can we get back to talking about this game instead of something from 10+ years ago?Like this game will be relevant in 2 years, or known of in 4.
Post by: PTTG?? on January 18, 2017, 01:34:38 am
What might it one day be?
Post by: Cruxador on January 18, 2017, 02:10:21 am
I keep imagining, vaguely, Stellaris + CK2's career.Well, CK2's over. They're doing the last DLC before retiring it from active support. It will probably continue to be a modding platform until the eventual release of CK3, but I don't see anything else coming out of it, and I think between overhauls like the Game of Thrones mod, Elder Kings, and After the End, plus overhauls like HIP (with SWMH and the portraits and ARKO and etc) we've already seen most of the best that'll come out of it. Some of that stuff will get refined further, and there might be a cool new thing, but there's not a lot of great dynamism remaining in the general shape of the trends.
What might it one day be?
As for Stellaris, we can probably infer somewhat accurately from CK2.
Post by: Retropunch on January 18, 2017, 07:24:06 am
The issue for me is, and always has been, that Stellaris has massive chunks missing that CK2/EU had from the get go. Espionage, actual characters, trade, etc. etc.
Whilst a lot of people have said 'oh they'll definitely get to it' I still haven't seen a hint of such fundamental systems going in, and I just don't know if they will. They're on their second 'big' update, and this looks like it's going to concentrate on ascension and late game perks - interesting stuff, but not a fundamental system.
I start to wonder if they've built the game with the ability to add those systems in - there comes a time when it's just too difficult/costly to hammer in those wide reaching systems, and they might just instead keep adding 'interesting' stuff rather than fundamental systems.
Post by: Teneb on January 18, 2017, 08:59:40 am
Well, CK2's over. They're doing the last DLC before retiring it from active support.Second last. There's still going to be one more according to Paradox. But yeah, CK2 is on its way to retirement. Can only DEUS VULT for so long.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 18, 2017, 02:26:25 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on January 18, 2017, 02:40:18 pm
Then you can DEUS VULT the sequelBy God.. Imagine the new influx of DLCs to purchase!
My wallet ain't big enough for this!
Post by: PTTG?? on January 18, 2017, 03:43:50 pm
In each case, disabling the decision has an up-front influence cost, representing the difficulty of weaning the benefactors from their entitlements.
Favored Contractors:
+5% upkeep and production costs on military units. +1 Influence/Mo.
Scientific Orthodoxy:
-10% research output. +1 Influence/Mo.
Political Enfranchisement Programs:
+15% ideology drift. +1 Influence/Mo.
Moribund Bureaucracy:
(Must not have an upgraded form of government)
-5% Happiness on worlds other than the capitol. +1 Influence/Mo.
Civilian Investment:
-5% Energy and Minerals. +1 Influence/Mo.
Decadent Elite:
-25% leader experience gain. +1 Influence/Mo.
Military Cabal:
-5% ship HP, -5% ship damage, -5% ship speed. +1 Influence/Mo.
I'm sure there's more.
Post by: Cruxador on January 18, 2017, 04:27:07 pm
In each case, disabling the decision has an up-front influence cost, representing the difficulty of weaning the benefactors from their entitlements.Keep in mind that the devs are Swedes, and while they don't intentionally base mechanics on their own local politics, some concepts are so alien to their zeitgeist that they aren't going to go in simply because they don't make intrinsic sense to any of the devs.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 18, 2017, 04:36:58 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on January 18, 2017, 08:16:30 pm
Some of the specifics are a bit logically questionable (a moribund bureaucracy seems like the opposite of something that would increase your ability to get things done politically, most egregiously) but I like the idea overall. Actually, for the bureaucracy, an "entrenched bureaucracy" that decreases influence but has some effects like EU's stability might make sense even though it's not what you're talking about.In each case, disabling the decision has an up-front influence cost, representing the difficulty of weaning the benefactors from their entitlements.Keep in mind that the devs are Swedes, and while they don't intentionally base mechanics on their own local politics, some concepts are so alien to their zeitgeist that they aren't going to go in simply because they don't make intrinsic sense to any of the devs.
The argument behind the moribund bureaucracy is that it's extremely difficult for anyone to appeal decisions made by the ruling elite-- who presumably have staff and executive powers that supersede it. Those outside of "the system" are unhappy, but those in it get what they want. I'm more than willing to hear arguments for an alternative name for an "Influence at the expense of Happiness" edict.
Rather than as a political statement, I felt that the cost-to-disable would require some balancing factor, otherwise (for instance) Favored Contractors would be an automatic yes during peacetime and then disabled during even the briefest period that the fleets are out of dry-dock. I felt that in order to have meaning, the edicts should provide a certain amount of inconvenience.
Military Cabal was a tough one. I was trying to come up with a way to describe a great deal of incompetence and nepotism in the middle-ranks with the effect that ships are somewhat less effective.
Oh, here's one:
Introspective Doctrine:
-10% to border size, +1 Influence/Mo.
Colonial Authority:
-1 Core System, +1 Influence/Mo.
Honestly even as I do this a few of these could be nicely inverted.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 18, 2017, 08:32:44 pm
Military Cabal was a tough one. I was trying to come up with a way to describe a great deal of incompetence and nepotism in the middle-ranks with the effect that ships are somewhat less effective.-70% Admiral Experience Gain
Post by: IronyOwl on January 18, 2017, 09:24:03 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 19, 2017, 07:39:27 am
Rights and obligations. Also an as-yet unannounced paid DLC which will contain some additional features like different slavery types and options.
Post by: Retropunch on January 19, 2017, 11:27:41 am
New dev diary: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-57-species-rights.995302/
Rights and obligations. Also an as-yet unannounced paid DLC which will contain some additional features like different slavery types and options.
Interesting stuff, I can imagine it being good for sort of 'roleplaying' purposes, but I do wonder slightly about if you'll be messing around micromanaging pop rights for small increases.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on January 19, 2017, 11:29:55 am
I can imagine some deliciously flavorful combinations there. Give your Livestock slaves Utopian living conditions? Sure, you'll want your walking meals to be as healthy and succulent as possible.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 19, 2017, 11:31:53 am
Also of note, the next dev diary will cover Orbital Habitats. Get hype.
Post by: Retropunch on January 19, 2017, 11:42:26 am
You'd basically end up with zero risk play, so I can only imagine that the orbital habitats might be more like spacestations mk2
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on January 19, 2017, 09:17:12 pm
Also this will be a good patch, also love the fact they finally put up another quarantine thread for sectors.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2017, 10:26:21 pm
I love the introduction of refugees and I hope they expand on that. Imagine a refugee fleet ala Battlestar Galactica or the Quarians from Mass Effect and you can choose to shelter them at the cost of danger and/or diplomatic penalties from their aggressors but you might gain free pops, technology, etc.
Also of note, the next dev diary will cover Orbital Habitats. Get hype.
Eh, Aurora has Orbital Habitats and it's free. I'm betting the Orbital Habitats will be DLC-only.
EDIT: And where are my Sex Slaves?
Post by: IronyOwl on January 19, 2017, 10:32:01 pm
EDIT: And where are my Sex Slaves?Domestic Servants probably include slutty tentacled maids.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2017, 10:33:54 pm
EDIT: And where are my Sex Slaves?Domestic Servants probably include slutty tentacled maids.
I doubt it. The game doesn't simulate Hybrids yet.
Post by: PTTG?? on January 19, 2017, 10:37:09 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on January 19, 2017, 11:05:35 pm
Reality interjecting, two species on the same planet can't reproduce and form offspring a lot of the time (Close relatives usually can, there's a thing to get the theory of evolution updated since different, but related, species have been found to interbreed and produce fertile offspring, allowing gene transfer across species). How in the hell would a species with a probably VASTLY different biology produce a viable child with, say a human?We are talking about a game where Jedi use warp drive to land robot space marines supported by clone commandos on an alien planet in order to occupy it long enough to justify a different planet being liberated as a puppet state. I agree natural hybrids would be considerably softer than most of the game's current stuff already is, but it is and always has been more space opera than realistic.
It could probably fit in cleaner as a policy option (or right/responsibility, once Banks hits) or moddable-only species trait, I suppose. Somewhat in parallel with reality, I imagine making actual, discrete hybrid pops would be prohibitively obnoxious to implement in game, though.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on January 19, 2017, 11:10:27 pm
Post by: Culise on January 19, 2017, 11:32:08 pm
Which wouldn't exactly be something most masters would commonly do in a master-slave relationship, though.
Post by: Descan on January 20, 2017, 12:24:36 pm
the game is (was?) trying to take after Star Trek after all...
Post by: Cruxador on January 20, 2017, 02:27:15 pm
Eh, Aurora has Orbital Habitats and it's free. I'm betting the Orbital Habitats will be DLC-only.I'm not betting that. Anything that they want to build on in the future is free update. Orbital habitats seem likely to qualify.
EDIT: And where are my Sex Slaves?
And "Domestic Servitude" can include sex if you're into that.
Just because you can't reproduce doesn't mean you can't have sex. It just means that it's unnatural and likely to be frowned upon by certain aspects of society. See for example in real life: Sodomy, bestiality, pedophilia.EDIT: And where are my Sex Slaves?Domestic Servants probably include slutty tentacled maids.
I doubt it. The game doesn't simulate Hybrids yet.
Still don't get how hybrids are softer, if humans and chimps can't have kids while evolving on the same planet, I doubt Humans and Space Fox/Cat/Racoon can with the whole totally different star system bit."Soft" in this context means "not based on hard science". And hard, there, means there's a solid body of research and thought which implies that it's possible. Hybridization between species that are not only from widely different taxa but also from different origins of life is very much not a phenomenon with a solid foundation in real science. Thus, "soft".
Post by: TalonisWolf on January 20, 2017, 04:12:40 pm
While I don't think Paradox will ever venture into scifi, Dune in CK2-like mechanics would be amazing.
I'd like to point out how ironic this post is with Stellaris out.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 20, 2017, 04:18:01 pm
Also, I'm sorry for claiming that this game would die soon. I was in a weird place, also drunk- fact is, I apologize. I didn't mean it... In fact, by being distinct from EU, this could be the next CK or better.
I just grew up on fascinating space 4X and was disappointed by modern ones. So I'm bitter. Haven't played this one, and I'll wait.
Post by: Mephansteras on January 20, 2017, 04:33:29 pm
While that's a nice burn, I'd love a CK2-style Dune...
Also, I'm sorry for claiming that this game would die soon. I was in a weird place, also drunk- fact is, I apologize. I didn't mean it... In fact, by being distinct from EU, this could be the next CK or better.
I just grew up on fascinating space 4X and was disappointed by modern ones. So I'm bitter. Haven't played this one, and I'll wait.
I'm having fun with it despite its flaws. More than I have a space 4x in quite a while.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 20, 2017, 07:36:31 pm
Reality interjecting, two species on the same planet can't reproduce and form offspring a lot of the time (Close relatives usually can, there's a thing to get the theory of evolution updated since different, but related, species have been found to interbreed and produce fertile offspring, allowing gene transfer across species). How in the hell would a species with a probably VASTLY different biology produce a viable child with, say a human?We are talking about a game where Jedi use warp drive to land robot space marines supported by clone commandos on an alien planet in order to occupy it long enough to justify a different planet being liberated as a puppet state. I agree natural hybrids would be considerably softer than most of the game's current stuff already is, but it is and always has been more space opera than realistic.
It could probably fit in cleaner as a policy option (or right/responsibility, once Banks hits) or moddable-only species trait, I suppose. Somewhat in parallel with reality, I imagine making actual, discrete hybrid pops would be prohibitively obnoxious to implement in game, though.
Mechanically, Hybrids would have to be treated as their own species, since the game tracks population by species. Creating Hybrids would have to, most likely, open up the species creator, assign points, and produce an outcome. It is totally doable, and correctly reflects the above realizations that tons of gene therapy would be necessary to produce viable offspring from two different, and alien, species. And it should still give a ~50% chance of the new species having the Sterile Trait, which either removes all natural growth (they'd be like Robot populations).
Post by: inteuniso on January 20, 2017, 09:04:01 pm
Creating Hybrids would have to, most likely, open up the species creator, assign points, and produce an outcome. It is totally doable, and correctly reflects the above realizations that tons of gene therapy would be necessary to produce viable offspring from two different, and alien, species. And it should still give a ~50% chance of the new species having the Sterile Trait, which either removes all natural growth (they'd be like Robot populations).
Also possible is an event chain that has some private citizens creating a random 'hybrid' with various chances of success, and with related empires expressing their opinions on the matter. Good way to have a random event generate inter-empire friction.
Post by: Cruxador on January 20, 2017, 09:57:06 pm
While that's a nice burn, I'd love a CK2-style Dune...If you've waited this long anyway, definitely wait for the next update since it'll address a lot of the problems that the game launched with. But it's not an old-fashioned 4x at all, even if it's also quite dissimilar from other modern ones. Despite using a few of the shallow paradigms that are ubiquitous in 4x (e.g. "tall" is supposed to be a viable playstyle) it dodges or only partially sticks to some of the worst ones, like symmetrical starts.
Also, I'm sorry for claiming that this game would die soon. I was in a weird place, also drunk- fact is, I apologize. I didn't mean it... In fact, by being distinct from EU, this could be the next CK or better.
I just grew up on fascinating space 4X and was disappointed by modern ones. So I'm bitter. Haven't played this one, and I'll wait.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 20, 2017, 10:53:16 pm
While that's a nice burn, I'd love a CK2-style Dune...If you've waited this long anyway, definitely wait for the next update since it'll address a lot of the problems that the game launched with. But it's not an old-fashioned 4x at all, even if it's also quite dissimilar from other modern ones. Despite using a few of the shallow paradigms that are ubiquitous in 4x (e.g. "tall" is supposed to be a viable playstyle) it dodges or only partially sticks to some of the worst ones, like symmetrical starts.
Also, I'm sorry for claiming that this game would die soon. I was in a weird place, also drunk- fact is, I apologize. I didn't mean it... In fact, by being distinct from EU, this could be the next CK or better.
I just grew up on fascinating space 4X and was disappointed by modern ones. So I'm bitter. Haven't played this one, and I'll wait.
Well...the player always starts with the same start, so it still has that flaw from most 4x games (that was not the case with CK or EU).
Post by: Retropunch on January 21, 2017, 06:14:47 am
Well...the player always starts with the same start, so it still has that flaw from most 4x games (that was not the case with CK or EU).
Kinda, you can select how many advanced start AI opponents you want though. You can theoretically have yourself as a small upcoming nation surrounded by all big players. However it's just not viable like in CK2/EU, as it still comes back to the problem that there's nothing really to do that isn't war. Until they get trade, characters and espionage in, you're basically limited to just warfare which doesn't work for small civs.
Post by: Cruxador on January 21, 2017, 01:33:11 pm
And it's impossible to play a "castille game" where you're pretty big and powerful but still have interesting things to do.Well...the player always starts with the same start, so it still has that flaw from most 4x games (that was not the case with CK or EU).
Kinda, you can select how many advanced start AI opponents you want though. You can theoretically have yourself as a small upcoming nation surrounded by all big players. However it's just not viable like in CK2/EU, as it still comes back to the problem that there's nothing really to do that isn't war. Until they get trade, characters and espionage in, you're basically limited to just warfare which doesn't work for small civs.
Post by: TalonisWolf on January 21, 2017, 05:14:42 pm
And it's impossible to play a "castille game" where you're pretty big and powerful but still have interesting things to do.Well...the player always starts with the same start, so it still has that flaw from most 4x games (that was not the case with CK or EU).
Kinda, you can select how many advanced start AI opponents you want though. You can theoretically have yourself as a small upcoming nation surrounded by all big players. However it's just not viable like in CK2/EU, as it still comes back to the problem that there's nothing really to do that isn't war. Until they get trade, characters and espionage in, you're basically limited to just warfare which doesn't work for small civs.
It thrives most when you get the bad end of the stick- for example,
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: PTTG?? on January 21, 2017, 08:19:26 pm
And it's impossible to play a "castille game" where you're pretty big and powerful but still have interesting things to do.Well...the player always starts with the same start, so it still has that flaw from most 4x games (that was not the case with CK or EU).
Kinda, you can select how many advanced start AI opponents you want though. You can theoretically have yourself as a small upcoming nation surrounded by all big players. However it's just not viable like in CK2/EU, as it still comes back to the problem that there's nothing really to do that isn't war. Until they get trade, characters and espionage in, you're basically limited to just warfare which doesn't work for small civs.
It thrives most when you get the bad end of the stick- for example,Spoiler (click to show/hide)
That is amazing.
Post by: Culise on January 23, 2017, 11:49:09 am
Now, if we can build them away from planets as well...
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 23, 2017, 11:57:29 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 24, 2017, 06:51:09 am
https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/823857962439573504
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 26, 2017, 07:19:55 am
Habitats will be good at energy and research, bad at food and minerals. Oh and they're part of the paid DLC coming up, not a freebie
And apparently 'something big' is coming next which they have kept a secret.
Post by: Majestic7 on January 26, 2017, 07:37:09 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 26, 2017, 07:38:16 am
I can haz ringworldz and fill them with cats?With mods you already can actually. There are a few for building and/or restoring ringworlds
Post by: Cruxador on January 26, 2017, 11:49:59 am
Quote from: Wiz
Wide empires can do it, of course, but there are other tradeoffs and balancing levers (such as consumer goods) that make it more worthwhile for a smaller empire.Gotta say, I agree with this philosophy.
And again, as I said, this is more about ensuring that small empires don't run out of options. Big empires *should* be stronger than small empires, the question is just how much and in which ways.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 26, 2017, 11:53:20 am
Post by: Cruxador on January 26, 2017, 11:57:58 am
Post by: Retropunch on January 26, 2017, 12:01:44 pm
More than that, I like the idea that tall empires don't have to stagnate, but this feels as though it should be a minor addition to the base game instead of a major part of a paid expansion. If they feel that tall empires are broken, that should be released as a patch not a paid DLC.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 26, 2017, 12:26:22 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on February 02, 2017, 03:58:05 pm
As well as a teaser vid of sorts. (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/perfect-your-galactic-empire-in-stellaris-utopia.997685/) (actual vid here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svnH2mmONiw))
Post by: Cruxador on February 02, 2017, 06:56:01 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 02, 2017, 07:04:49 pm
The mechanical changes to pops and ethics are much more interesting to me, but the megastructures are also cool.
Post by: Retropunch on February 02, 2017, 07:17:02 pm
Mega structures are cool and all, but I'm still way more interested in the changes to mechanics. Megastructures sound like basically just "get some better resources" mostly.
Yup, this is pretty much as bad as I'd imagined. Everything in this expansion is just a re-skinned variation of a planet or new techs. I can't see a reason for buying this, as there are tons of mods that add extra planet diversity and techs already. The pop ethics and stuff is interesting, but I honestly can't see it doing a great deal in reality.
I'm pretty much resigned to them not being able to actually deliver any new mechanics like trade or whatever - I imagine they've programmed themselves into a bit of a corner mechanics wise, and can only really add 'more stuff'. I've seen it happen with software projects before where they've been unable to add anything that doesn't work like a version of x (where x would be a planet type in this case) due to how they've coded the very framework of the software.
I could be wrong, but as they haven't added anything fundamental in two big updates (and have instead gone for stuff no one really asked for at all) - it kinda leads me to believe that they just can't, so are trying to just add stuff on top of it to pad it out. If it isn't that, then they're just being lazy.
Post by: Descan on February 02, 2017, 07:56:14 pm
Not saying that's happening but it's not a dichotomy like you implied.
Post by: Retropunch on February 02, 2017, 08:19:24 pm
Alternatively, it's taking longer that they thought to add stuff so they're delaying while they work stuff out.
Not saying that's happening but it's not a dichotomy like you implied.
I definitely had that line of thought for the first DLC, and I'd have kept thinking that if they showed any indication that they were working on actual mechanics. The first DLC was very, very story heavy, so I thought that might be because programming resources were working on mechanics. So far though, we've had nothing to indicate that - I've not even heard them speak about trade, espionage, actual characters etc.
I don't completely rule it out, it just seems very, very unlikely we're going to see any major developments past new content for what we've got.
Post by: Teneb on February 02, 2017, 08:45:31 pm
They did make a new, apparently better, internal politics system for free. That takes work. My guess is the DLC is there to cover the costs of the free patch stuff.Alternatively, it's taking longer that they thought to add stuff so they're delaying while they work stuff out.
Not saying that's happening but it's not a dichotomy like you implied.
I definitely had that line of thought for the first DLC, and I'd have kept thinking that if they showed any indication that they were working on actual mechanics. The first DLC was very, very story heavy, so I thought that might be because programming resources were working on mechanics. So far though, we've had nothing to indicate that - I've not even heard them speak about trade, espionage, actual characters etc.
I don't completely rule it out, it just seems very, very unlikely we're going to see any major developments past new content for what we've got.
Post by: Retropunch on February 02, 2017, 09:02:17 pm
They did make a new, apparently better, internal politics system for free. That takes work. My guess is the DLC is there to cover the costs of the free patch stuff.
It's just a few new options on the old one really. They've condensed factions into something more reasonable and given us a few new ethics options, along with another mineral cost for keeping pops happy.
I'm sure it'll be an improvement, but I don't think the outcome will really effect game play much. From what it looks like from the blog, you'll need to spend a bit more time balancing out your ethics to match your factions and spend a bit of your mineral income on it.
My problem is that there are HUGE areas that they haven't even touched which are pretty much standard across 4x, whilst they keep just iterating on the same stuff they've already got.
Post by: Cruxador on February 02, 2017, 09:08:31 pm
Well, the stuff they've got started out kind of flawed. I think it's better to get it good before moving on to other things. Just because they haven't done anything big yet doesn't mean they never will. There's a reason that a lot of people recommend waiting a year or two before buying into Paradox releases, after all.They did make a new, apparently better, internal politics system for free. That takes work. My guess is the DLC is there to cover the costs of the free patch stuff.
It's just a few new options on the old one really. They've condensed factions into something more reasonable and given us a few new ethics options, along with another mineral cost for keeping pops happy.
I'm sure it'll be an improvement, but I don't think the outcome will really effect game play much. From what it looks like from the blog, you'll need to spend a bit more time balancing out your ethics to match your factions and spend a bit of your mineral income on it.
My problem is that there are HUGE areas that they haven't even touched which are pretty much standard across 4x, whilst they keep just iterating on the same stuff they've already got.
Post by: Wiles on February 02, 2017, 09:26:00 pm
I definitely had that line of thought for the first DLC, and I'd have kept thinking that if they showed any indication that they were working on actual mechanics. The first DLC was very, very story heavy, so I thought that might be because programming resources were working on mechanics. So far though, we've had nothing to indicate that - I've not even heard them speak about trade, espionage, actual characters etc.
I don't completely rule it out, it just seems very, very unlikely we're going to see any major developments past new content for what we've got.
I think they have talked about revamping the trade system, even to the extent of possibly adding trade vessels. I don't think we'll ever see something like Distant Worlds though (not that I would want something so convoluted, but a some complications would be nice).
I don't think the addition of a more complicated character system would add much of value to the game. CKII in space would be cool, but Stellaris is not that.
I do hope they add espionage like you mentioned though, and a more interesting diplomacy system in general.
Post by: Cruxador on February 02, 2017, 09:55:41 pm
I don't think the addition of a more complicated character system would add much of value to the game. CKII in space would be cool, but Stellaris is not that.That seems like a false dichotomy to me. Is Stellaris "Victoria in Space" because it has pops?
Post by: Wiles on February 02, 2017, 10:45:12 pm
Post by: Sirus on February 02, 2017, 10:57:23 pm
Post by: Descan on February 02, 2017, 11:53:31 pm
Post by: Retropunch on February 03, 2017, 06:21:50 am
Well, the stuff they've got started out kind of flawed. I think it's better to get it good before moving on to other things. Just because they haven't done anything big yet doesn't mean they never will. There's a reason that a lot of people recommend waiting a year or two before buying into Paradox releases, after all.
The problem is exactly that - they're adding new stuff in rather than dealing with what they've already got in place. They've got characters, trade and diplomacy in, but they've just not done anything meaningful with them - instead they're adding stuff like artisans and mega-structures that weren't ever really 'needed'.
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 03, 2017, 06:59:36 am
1.3 brought Leviathans and Enclaves as well as a new victory condition and further balance tuning.
1.4 fixed evasion exploits and finally fixed sectors. Seems like the game is where they want it now, so they're working on a fairly major political rework.
In 1.5 they are changing the way the ethics system works is not a simple tweak, they're putting in an entirely new system for it along with factions for ethics and policies. They're also adding a second major system with the ascension perks and Traditions. They're also adding in unrest on planets to further expand the political model, and a new avenue of internal development for non-expansionist empires in that you can build orbital habitats and eventually megastructures.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on February 03, 2017, 09:21:17 am
Post by: Descan on February 03, 2017, 02:24:20 pm
*Bringing the world to life by adding in autonomous systems and the ability to influence other empires non-diplomatically and non-militarily. I just hope they do espionage correctly, as in not just another ticking timer that drains some resource and gives you some events every so often before BING fries are done. Knowing paradox, that's exactly how they'll do it though.
Post by: Wiles on February 03, 2017, 03:00:36 pm
Post by: Sirus on February 03, 2017, 03:17:32 pm
Post by: Puzzlemaker on February 03, 2017, 03:21:28 pm
Post by: Wiles on February 03, 2017, 03:29:18 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on February 03, 2017, 06:45:24 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on February 03, 2017, 07:45:31 pm
I really would like to see big empires be prone to fracturing.Me too, but given that they couldn't handle this in CK2, where it's kind of an important recurring historical theme, I'm fairly dubious.
Then again, maybe tech and foresight will help this time around. Ethics Divergence, while crap, is still better at providing meaningful internal complications than anything I'm aware of in CK2. Until you get mind control lasers.
Post by: PTTG?? on February 03, 2017, 08:02:01 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on February 03, 2017, 08:25:27 pm
It comes down to sectors. If sectors were an advantage instead of a detriment, if they existed for AI, then they'd be really reasonable fracture points.
They don't have to be so much an advantage as a mandated detriment to growing bigger, like Corruption in the Civ games. But yeah, they'd have to apply to the AI as well.
Post by: Cruxador on February 03, 2017, 11:25:54 pm
They've got characters, trade and diplomacy inI mean, not really though.
Quote
they're adding stuff like artisans and mega-structures that weren't ever really 'needed'.Those are tiny gimmick things added to fund the main development. Little side things like that aren't really relevant since the amount of dev time they use is trivial. Compare that to the tradition trees, the consumer goods, the species rights, and most especially the ethics overhaul, with the faction overhaul that it begets.
Post by: PTTG?? on February 03, 2017, 11:43:05 pm
There's also the fact that corvettes are the most cost-effective form of firepower. And that the game systems of weapons are disconnected from the apparent systems (what appear to be missiles are actually just special particle effects, but there are missile objects, but they follow different rules, and they immediately blow up if the mothership is destroyed...). And that all ships use the same "strategy," which is "ignore my maximum range and circle around the enemy," meaning that range is the least important feature of every weapon.
I don't really know if I'd want to buy an expansion pack if the main game is so nonfunctional...
Post by: Tiruin on February 04, 2017, 12:07:27 am
On reflection, it really seems that combat needs a total redesign. Given that a fleet can be destroyed because it stops fleeing from a superior force in order to destroy a mining outpost, I would imagine that there is something wrong with the game as it stands.This has been on my mind since ever -_-
"FLEE! Retreat, fleet! Oh wait there's a tiny outpost over there let's go into battle and reset the warp drive by a month~"
You go, Commander. :I
Post by: sprinkled chariot on February 04, 2017, 12:10:07 am
Post by: umiman on February 04, 2017, 01:16:17 am
The ability to blow up a planet.
What's wrong with them.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on February 04, 2017, 01:43:28 am
Post by: TalonisWolf on February 04, 2017, 11:30:36 am
Damn, there is no SUPERFORTRESS or deathstar tier weapon among superstructures :c
Mods. They already have them out there.
Post by: Cruxador on February 04, 2017, 12:26:18 pm
Post by: Sirus on February 04, 2017, 12:35:54 pm
Post by: Retropunch on February 04, 2017, 12:40:57 pm
Post by: umiman on February 04, 2017, 12:54:25 pm
I can imagine it would create an interesting external threat/end game/fallen civs thing. If you start just tombing/destroying planets it might wake up some sort of universe defender type force that'd step in to stop you - as it'd be a chance thing, you might feel tempted to risk it on occasion."Sir, we've awoken the Last Sentinels. They're a fleet of sentient superbeings that claim they're the defenders of the galaxy. Their massive ships have come to defeat us because we've been destroying too many planets!"
"Hmm... how big are these massive ships?"
"Pretty big sir, bigger than anything we field."
"But are they bigger than a planet?"
"No."
"Use the Planetfucker3000 on them."
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on February 04, 2017, 01:26:16 pm
I can imagine it would create an interesting external threat/end game/fallen civs thing. If you start just tombing/destroying planets it might wake up some sort of universe defender type force that'd step in to stop you - as it'd be a chance thing, you might feel tempted to risk it on occasion.
I imagine that besides have to have research for it, you probably would need have the right set of ethics to do it. A Pacifist would probably only do it in extreme cases and a fanatical one would never do it, while a fanatical zealot would probably burn planets like a candles during a candlelight vigil.
Post by: Culise on February 04, 2017, 01:30:32 pm
"...sir, have you ever questioned why we've never used the Planetfucker3000 on enemy war fleets?"I can imagine it would create an interesting external threat/end game/fallen civs thing. If you start just tombing/destroying planets it might wake up some sort of universe defender type force that'd step in to stop you - as it'd be a chance thing, you might feel tempted to risk it on occasion."Sir, we've awoken the Last Sentinels. They're a fleet of sentient superbeings that claim they're the defenders of the galaxy. Their massive ships have come to defeat us because we've been destroying too many planets!"
"Hmm... how big are these massive ships?"
"Pretty big sir, bigger than anything we field."
"But are they bigger than a planet?"
"No."
"Use the Planetfucker3000 on them."
"No, I thought we were."
"Fleets can move out of the way, sir."
"Well, that sounds like a design flaw to me. Get those scientists crackin' on the Planetfucker4000."
Post by: IronyOwl on February 04, 2017, 01:33:01 pm
On reflection, it really seems that combat needs a total redesign. Given that a fleet can be destroyed because it stops fleeing from a superior force in order to destroy a mining outpost, I would imagine that there is something wrong with the game as it stands.This has been true since Day 1. I really don't think they put much thought into it, and the combat overhaul they did do was not inspiring.
Personally, I think handling combat in the same space as the rest of the game was a mistake; they should have had two in-combat fleets produce a battle object which then contained a turn based rock-paper-scissors card game JRPG battle or whatever. This would have been a slightly clunky abstraction, but if fleets enter combat immediately and cannot be controlled within combat, what exactly is there to lose? Is wandering a little further into research station aggro range really worth the current missile fiasco, for instance?
Hell, if you wanted to keep the scale you could have a battle start as soon as two hostile fleets entered the same system (or make combat events encompass the entire system), so it can look like your battleships are shelling the enemy from the other end of the system without all the weird clunk.
Post by: Sirus on February 04, 2017, 01:49:28 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 04, 2017, 02:03:34 pm
Post by: Retropunch on February 04, 2017, 02:13:15 pm
That being said, it does need a big overhaul. Things like limiting the amount of fleets you can field so there's less two-ship spam would be a good start.
Post by: umiman on February 04, 2017, 07:44:25 pm
I nominate you as the Chief scientist + Admiral of the United Umiman Navy."...sir, have you ever questioned why we've never used the Planetfucker3000 on enemy war fleets?"I can imagine it would create an interesting external threat/end game/fallen civs thing. If you start just tombing/destroying planets it might wake up some sort of universe defender type force that'd step in to stop you - as it'd be a chance thing, you might feel tempted to risk it on occasion."Sir, we've awoken the Last Sentinels. They're a fleet of sentient superbeings that claim they're the defenders of the galaxy. Their massive ships have come to defeat us because we've been destroying too many planets!"
"Hmm... how big are these massive ships?"
"Pretty big sir, bigger than anything we field."
"But are they bigger than a planet?"
"No."
"Use the Planetfucker3000 on them."
"No, I thought we were."
"Fleets can move out of the way, sir."
"Well, that sounds like a design flaw to me. Get those scientists crackin' on the Planetfucker4000."
Post by: Cruxador on February 04, 2017, 08:37:10 pm
And that's how tachyon lances were invented."...sir, have you ever questioned why we've never used the Planetfucker3000 on enemy war fleets?"I can imagine it would create an interesting external threat/end game/fallen civs thing. If you start just tombing/destroying planets it might wake up some sort of universe defender type force that'd step in to stop you - as it'd be a chance thing, you might feel tempted to risk it on occasion."Sir, we've awoken the Last Sentinels. They're a fleet of sentient superbeings that claim they're the defenders of the galaxy. Their massive ships have come to defeat us because we've been destroying too many planets!"
"Hmm... how big are these massive ships?"
"Pretty big sir, bigger than anything we field."
"But are they bigger than a planet?"
"No."
"Use the Planetfucker3000 on them."
"No, I thought we were."
"Fleets can move out of the way, sir."
"Well, that sounds like a design flaw to me. Get those scientists crackin' on the Planetfucker4000."
Post by: Karnewarrior on February 05, 2017, 05:36:37 pm
1) Allow you to destroy non-habitable planets, without the same level of penalty that destroying habited worlds would do. Doing so might create a nice asteroid belt that could be scanned for a reroll on minerals.
2) Allow you to tomb worlds from the get-go. Space-based weapondry starts out at nuclear missiles and really quickly jumps to fusion missiles and beyond. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to tomb worlds with three corvettes, besides it taking a long time.
3) Allow you to tomb your own worlds. Because sometimes, you don't need that planet, or those xenos, and it's quicker to just eradicate the biosphere. OR maybe it's full of radroaches and it's an easy way to "terraform" the planet at the cost of a few meaningless radroach lives.
4) Allow you to tomb your own homeworld, even if it's the only planet you own. Because somewhere, someone is stupid enough to do that, and they deserve to be able to act out their idiocy in game, and probably get an achievement for it.
Also because I need to RP Space President Trump nuking Mexico. Radiation? What Radiation?
Post by: GiglameshDespair on February 05, 2017, 05:55:32 pm
"We're going to make a tomb world, and the Mexicans are going to pay for it."
Also because I need to RP Space President Trump nuking Mexico. Radiation? What Radiation?
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 05, 2017, 06:03:46 pm
Damn, there is no SUPERFORTRESS or deathstar tier weapon among superstructures :cNo, because that wasn't the focus of the project. They identified a direction (allow more avenues for internal development for when empires can't or don't want to expand) and worked towards that goal. This release wasn't intended to push warfare or increase firepower, it was solely to work on internal development. So now we'll have better politics, ascension perks, traditions, and megastructures.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 05, 2017, 06:16:51 pm
2) Allow you to tomb worlds from the get-go. Space-based weapondry starts out at nuclear missiles and really quickly jumps to fusion missiles and beyond. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to tomb worlds with three corvettes, besides it taking a long time.I would say that this should be partially controlled by policy and planetary defense. So you have a World Preservation policy with options for Always/Wartime/None, and can only be changed from Always if the Bombardment policy is Full.
However, it shouldn't be possible to glass a planet owned by a spacefaring culture unless the planet is defenseless, because they would have ground-based point defense and the like. While primitive worlds have no defense, though this is so far beyond even invading primitive worlds that it would be a severe diplomatic penalty.
Post by: Rolan7 on February 05, 2017, 06:36:10 pm
If/when they put in the option to tomb/glass/destroy planets, I hope they do the following:Ooh, planetcracking! I've been replaying Dead Space, I like this.
1) Allow you to destroy non-habitable planets, without the same level of penalty that destroying habited worlds would do. Doing so might create a nice asteroid belt that could be scanned for a reroll on minerals.
3) Allow you to tomb your own worlds. Because sometimes, you don't need that planet, or those xenos, and it's quicker to just eradicate the biosphere. OR maybe it's full of radroaches and it's an easy way to "terraform" the planet at the cost of a few meaningless radroach lives.Never fight a land war
4) Allow you to tomb your own homeworld, even if it's the only planet you own. Because somewhere, someone is stupid enough to do that, and they deserve to be able to act out their idiocy in game, and probably get an achievement for it.
Post by: QuakeIV on February 05, 2017, 08:04:50 pm
Post by: TalonisWolf on February 05, 2017, 08:38:32 pm
I think blowing your own homeworld to hell to deny it to the enemy should be a completely valid strategy.
Demolish all Structures?
Post by: QuakeIV on February 05, 2017, 09:11:45 pm
Post by: Baffler on February 05, 2017, 09:31:42 pm
Still a large colonizeable planet, its much better if it gets turned into an unlivable toxic wasteland.
The problem is that doing that is, essentially, an admission of defeat. Who would destroy their own home world, except someone who expects to never return?
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on February 05, 2017, 09:37:20 pm
Still a large colonizeable planet, its much better if it gets turned into an unlivable toxic wasteland.
The problem is that doing that is, essentially, an admission of defeat. Who would destroy their own home world, except someone who expects to never return?
A bunch of xenophobic religious fanatics who would rather destroy their holy sites, and prevent the enemy from capturing then destroying the sites themselves?
Post by: Descan on February 06, 2017, 02:10:21 am
Which I've done.
it was glorious. Basically an entire species of robots that breed, since they had high habitability on every planet and 100 on tomb worlds.
Post by: QuakeIV on February 06, 2017, 12:42:17 pm
Post by: Cruxador on February 06, 2017, 01:18:58 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on February 07, 2017, 12:38:34 am
The U.N. found a cryo-vault filled with aliens on a moon. No biggie, right? Well, this one didn't contain just some aliens, but Human corpses as well. We did some research and probed their archives, and found co-ordinates for four homeworlds for four of the six alien races. The last two were us, who obviously knew where Earth was, and another alien race that was represented more heavily, leading us to assume they were the ones who built the facility. We also found signs they were trying to uplift the other races, so we were interested enough to look at where those co-ordinates were.
Each world we went to was differently doomed. One was frozen over, a giant snowball. Another was a molten hellhole, dragged too close to the sun by some unknown force.
The third was covered in crystals, which we found were of the same kind that the space-crystals were made out of. We had about enough time to say "Oh shit, that's bad!" before a Sovereign warped into the system with hostility in its... lattice? Our science ship managed to scramble out without being hurt, and we sent in the newly-combined fleets of the Humans and the Flowermen-I-still-haven't-but-really-should-learn-the-names-of. There was a titanic clash, which consisted mostly of our force throwing Fusion missiles like Macross, although for all the damage each one did we may as well have been tossing pop rocks out the window. The Sovereign got irritated enough to shoot back, but my fleet being mostly Corvettes with Mid-tier engines meant he couldn't easily hit us, and the advantage in numbers and lumbering intellect of the silicate being meant he wasted time shooting at different corvettes with every barrage. The battle actually lasted long enough that some of my corvettes shields started to recharge mid battle, but eventually they managed to cherry-tap the Sovereign to death. Somehow, we didn't lose anyone, which shocked me, because the Sovereign wiped shields with one hit, and Corvettes are fragile. Still, we managed to kill it, and now we're researching Crystal Growth patterns on the planet - carefully, in case any more Sovereigns show up.
The fourth planet was coated in mining drones. Each one of their forces was far weaker than my combined fleet, but there was enough of them combined to make it quite the task to clear them out. Unfortunately, I don't have any epic battles here; it was closer to exterminating an infestation of particularly thuggish termites than a bunch of knights slaying a dragon. We found that the system had been targeted by the mining drones for being unusually mineral rich. What I found out when I scanned the system is that my secretary apparently has a strong sense of irony - That one system had 24 minerals in total, with every planet, moon, and asteroid having at least 2 minerals and most having 3. While I sent my constructor, who wasn't doing anything since I'd long since run out of energy deposits or large mineral deposits like this one, to go build the mother of all mining rigs (and a memorial), my scientists were working on restoring power to the cryo facility. a short while later, they succeeded, and we had the coordinates of the "Oreill" Homeworld, which coincidentally didn't show up on our scanners previously because fucking game mechanics or some shit.
When we arrived at the Homeworld that had just appeared miles deep in our territory for some reason, I got a bit scared. You see, this was a nice big, long chain of quests, and when a nice big long chain of quests leads you to a system so covered in space debris and wreckage that you can see it all the way zoomed out, savvy gamers tend to shit their pants.
This is exactly how I found the Oreill Homeworld. Oh, and all the planets were uniquely named too. Also there was an Asteroid with moons, which I didn't know could happen.
Sucking it up like the pussy pretending to be a man I am, I sent my science ship to go knock on the Totally Not Suspiciously Shielded Planet. I also brought my military fleet in with a couple new Destroyers, because fuck if I'm fighting off some monolithic beast with Deflectors and Hope.
Turns out, didn't need the warships at all. The Shield was full of sads. ;-;
I was contacted almost immediately by an AI. The AI told me that he was just the mental image of an Oreill saved into a databank. The Last Oreill. Cortana told me that he and his people were of the peaceful sort, but didn't get too big into the planning of things - they cloned themselves into sterility before they realized it, and instead of harvesting brainstems like some other aliens, they decided that they were going to let nature cull the foolish. But there were violent races out there, ones who would pick on the natives the Oriell had grown fond of. So since they knew they wouldn't be around to protect them, they tried to let them protect themselves. They started an uplift program, and tried to teach the natives spaceflight and all the science they'd need to survive against the more violent types.
One such Opponent took umbrage to this. I can only assume that they're the relatively close by FE further down the Galactic Arm, a Militant Isolationist empire I could see doing something like this, because there aren't any other advanced species for miles. The only other option is that it was the Cybrex empire we've been researching, since recent reports indicate they may have had some sort of civil war. But who it was doesn't really matter - despite inferior tech, they invaded the Oreill, who fought back as valiantly as they could. But the Oreill were sterile, and while they had the bigger lasers, every one they lost was irreplaceable. They weren't able to stop the Opponent in time, and eventually retreated behind their shield, where they slowly died. The last Oreill impressed his mind onto a machine, creating an AI, for the sole purpose of apologizing to any of their "Children Races" that managed to stop by. They don't know why the Opponent didn't off the Humans, and we don't know either. But the Last Oreill asked us a question.
The Oreill had dedicated their entire species, by the end, to protecting those in the galaxy who had no means of fighting back from those who would invade them, conquer them, and enslave their people. The Oreill fought to the last man, literally, to stop the Opponent from destroying native species that could barely figure out how to farm their own food, simply because they could. The Oreill had a promise to themselves, that they would watch over and protect every primitive they encountered, and do their best to ensure that they were happy, healthy, and safe. The Oreill fought to protect the Galaxy.
And then they died.
The Last Oreill asked us if we would promise to do the same. Whether Humanity would forge it's own path among the stars, or if it would take up the mantle the Oreill had left unfilled for too many Millennia. He asked us if we would protect the weak, if the United Nations would continue the project to Uplift the primitive and bring them plenty.
There wasn't any hesitation. I said yes.
(http://i.imgur.com/L4zMwbE.png)
"The United Nations has not changed it's path. We were always set down this path; as xenophilic as our people are, as diverse as our opinions on everything is, how could we not allow the aliens the same rights Humans had? The aliens we met in our first forays into the stellar sea were narrow, primitive, and easily exploited. And yet, we did nothing but learn their language, come to them not as gods or kings but as guardians and observers. We came to the fascistic Lesenti people and presented ourselves as we were - as divergent and deviant from their norms as things could possibly be. But we still gave them honesty, and respect, despite the fact that they were just discovering the benefits of the rail and the steam engine, that they were using early rifles and we were using liquid powder rounds and assault rifles. We could have conquered them easily - both them and us know they would have done the same. But we did not conquer them. We met them, spoke to them, got to know them. And then we gave them technology, uplifted them from the train to the reusable rocket, and allowed them to have their own government, elected by their officials. Yes, we kept some hedgemony; how could we not? But it was not a Human that started the Individualist movement that would grow to encompass them all. There was no human hands in the Enlisted Revolution that established their Republic. It was a Lesenti, and Lisenti paws that did these things. And now they come to us, willingly serving our forces in our military. Out of fascists, democrats made friends, and we both prospered.
Humanity walks this path out of our own free will. We are great, not because of our similarities, but because we have all chosen this path. We've told the Oriell that we will defend the weak races of the galaxy, and in time give them the means to protect themselves. And if they wish independence, then we will grant it.
We've added a new clause to the U.N. Charter. That all Sapients are created equal. That all Sapients are owed by their nature, certain inalienable rights: The Right to Live. The Right to Prosper. And the Right to Choose."
~Secretary General Ivana Kawasaki
United Nations General Release, "Amendment 32"
United Nations General Release, "Amendment 32"
Post by: Retropunch on February 07, 2017, 11:44:55 am
-big snip-
Karnewarrior, as interesting (and it really was!) as that all is, could you please spoiler long 'gameplay + headcannon' posts like that? Obviously a one off isn't a problem and I do find them interesting to read, but I've seen some threads descend into endless fantasy plays with endless backstories and whatever.
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 07, 2017, 12:12:09 pm
https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/828924590294446081 (https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/828924590294446081)
SO that is interesting. God empress, for the emprah, etc etc.
What I find more interesting is the fact that there is a food resource icon on the top bar. Is food going to be an empire-wide resource now?!
Post by: Teneb on February 07, 2017, 12:12:48 pm
So the lead designer guy Martin constantly tweets little teasers about the upcoming features. He dropped this earlier:I think so, yes.
https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/828924590294446081 (https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/828924590294446081)
SO that is interesting. God empress, for the emprah, etc etc.
What I find more interesting is the fact that there is a food resource icon on the top bar. Is food going to be an empire-wide resource now?!
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 07, 2017, 12:22:16 pm
Attributes subject to change, obvious placeholder art, etc, etc. Still it's nice to see a preview of what they have in store for us and be satisfied that our immortal psionic emperor can use
Post by: IronyOwl on February 07, 2017, 12:55:51 pm
I really hope so. Food is currently wonky and relatively weak.What I find more interesting is the fact that there is a food resource icon on the top bar. Is food going to be an empire-wide resource now?!I think so, yes.
One of the game designers for Stellaris is tweeting the various attributes of the Traditions for the next update. (https://twitter.com/dmoregard)Neat.
Attributes subject to change, obvious placeholder art, etc, etc. Still it's nice to see a preview of what they have in store for us and be satisfied that our immortal psionic emperor can useStandard Template ConstructsStandard Construction Templates to further his goals.
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 07, 2017, 12:58:26 pm
That quest is far too long and functional for me to believe it's in the base game.It's just one of the precursor chains. I've run through it a few times. The final outcome depends on your ethics, and is one of the few things that can actually change your empire ethics right now in Vanilla.
Post by: Cruxador on February 07, 2017, 05:48:09 pm
One of the game designers for Stellaris is tweeting the various attributes of the Traditions for the next update. (https://twitter.com/dmoregard)Some cool stuff there.
Attributes subject to change, obvious placeholder art, etc, etc. Still it's nice to see a preview of what they have in store for us and be satisfied that our immortal psionic emperor can useStandard Template ConstructsStandard Construction Templates to further his goals.
All that Federation stuff in Diplomacy means I probably will never bother with it, which is disappointing.
Harmony looks nice for comfy playthroughs, which is my main style.
Prosperity looks handy but boring. The bonuses are nice but not enough for me to take it over several other things. Plus it seems like it's mostly for trivializing economy, and building economy up is fun for me.
Expansion is garbage at first, but the finisher effect and Courier Network could be worth it by themselves. Not gonna lean that way in general though.
Here's a compilation of the other two that's appeared in streams, and also the new ethics and policies.
http://imgur.com/a/jakVY
Based on those, Domination is excellent if you want to go that route. A couple bonuses are nice even without underlings, but it's set to feudal governance, basically.
Supremacy seems like it could be nice. That border projection is nice for comfy playthrough, as it is in xenophobia. Fire rate is nice regardless of playstyle. If the other stuff follows this trend, it could be one of my favorites along with harmony.
I've also seen a "flesh tithe" tradition which lets you receive slaves as tribute from your vassals, which presumably goes to one of those two, but I can't say which. If it's Domination, that fits the theme and that'll be all the domination techs. But Superiority could be a slave thing (because muh American white supremacy culture I guess) in which case it could fit there. I hope not though. That'd be kinda shit and it definitely fits better with Domination, so that's what I'm expecting. That means Supremacy is still a big mystery.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on February 07, 2017, 06:33:34 pm
That quest is far too long and functional for me to believe it's in the base game.It's just one of the precursor chains. I've run through it a few times. The final outcome depends on your ethics, and is one of the few things that can actually change your empire ethics right now in Vanilla.
Still don't get why they don't use do that more often, It'll help at least feel like i'm actually affecting the gaxaly after exterminating 3/4s of a race of xenophiles and turn them into xenophobes.
Post by: Aedel on February 07, 2017, 07:03:48 pm
Spoiler: spoilers for Utopia? (click to show/hide)
I couldn't find any mention of this with the search feature. Have a teaser from twitter.
-edit-
Post by: Retropunch on February 07, 2017, 07:09:56 pm
Supremacy seems like it could be nice. That border projection is nice for comfy playthrough, as it is in xenophobia. Fire rate is nice regardless of playstyle. If the other stuff follows this trend, it could be one of my favorites along with harmony.
I've also seen a "flesh tithe" tradition which lets you receive slaves as tribute from your vassals, which presumably goes to one of those two, but I can't say which. If it's Domination, that fits the theme and that'll be all the domination techs. But Superiority could be a slave thing (because muh American white supremacy culture I guess) in which case it could fit there. I hope not though. That'd be kinda shit and it definitely fits better with Domination, so that's what I'm expecting. That means Supremacy is still a big mystery.
I imagine Supremacy will be more offensive combat based - it'd make sense thematically, and might allow for some interesting 'super offensive' races/play throughs
Post by: Cruxador on February 07, 2017, 08:18:04 pm
Nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnope.Spoiler: spoilers for Utopia? (click to show/hide)
I couldn't find any mention of this with the search feature. Have a teaser from twitter.
-edit-
That definitely makes sense if you consider what's currently missing from the stable. Border projection seems like a weird foundational ability for it, though, so I think it'll be a bit more mechanically varied than just "git gud at war" stuff. I do expect to see a tradition which improves your soldiers at the very least, though, and while the fire rate capstone is already a nice boon for your fleet, I wouldn't be surprised to see something else to that effect too, or something which does it indirectly, such as a limit increase and/or upkeep decrease. But I don't think all five traditions are going to be leaning that way.Supremacy seems like it could be nice. That border projection is nice for comfy playthrough, as it is in xenophobia. Fire rate is nice regardless of playstyle. If the other stuff follows this trend, it could be one of my favorites along with harmony.
I've also seen a "flesh tithe" tradition which lets you receive slaves as tribute from your vassals, which presumably goes to one of those two, but I can't say which. If it's Domination, that fits the theme and that'll be all the domination techs. But Superiority could be a slave thing (because muh American white supremacy culture I guess) in which case it could fit there. I hope not though. That'd be kinda shit and it definitely fits better with Domination, so that's what I'm expecting. That means Supremacy is still a big mystery.
I imagine Supremacy will be more offensive combat based - it'd make sense thematically, and might allow for some interesting 'super offensive' races/play throughs
Post by: PTTG?? on February 08, 2017, 01:51:58 pm
Also, my friend and I noticed a serious error in the way that combat strength is calculated. It really, really underestimates the power of numbers, which is totally inverse of the way that science fiction works. A single high-tech ship can take on many times its number in fiction, but here an equal-strength number of low-tech corvettes will win with no significant damage.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 08, 2017, 05:45:26 pm
-snip-
On the topic of Covenants...
Spoiler: I'm sure that nothing can go wrong from this one (click to show/hide)
Post by: Teneb on February 08, 2017, 05:49:30 pm
... I'd totally form the covenant to see what happens.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 08, 2017, 05:52:36 pm
Post by: Cruxador on February 08, 2017, 10:18:36 pm
Honestly seems like a better deal to me than the Whispers.-snip-
On the topic of Covenants...Spoiler: I'm sure that nothing can go wrong from this one (click to show/hide)
The "Do not do this" remind me of some of Failbetter's stuff.You're right. The line about the hunger in their tone is the other one is the same.
... I'd totally form the covenant to see what happens.
Post by: Neonivek on February 08, 2017, 11:29:07 pm
Post by: GiglameshDespair on February 09, 2017, 03:23:26 am
Post by: Tiruin on February 09, 2017, 05:39:19 am
Seeing Fallen London influences in Stellaris is literally and without hyperbole the best thing to have happened to the game since it started development.:'(
This brings me literarily good and bad memories--both at the same time. :I This is nice. (Y'know, the conciseness + contentful quality + hints before something really bad happens that you can't blame yourself if you didn't know because you had a hint anyway?)
At least there aren't star spiders. x_x
Am I silly in assuming USEC cut off the important part continued under the nice bonuses? :P
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 09, 2017, 05:45:07 am
Do not do this.
Post by: Tiruin on February 09, 2017, 05:49:46 am
If anything, the list of bonuses continues for a comically long time, substantially improving literally every stat possible for the empire, with no negatives at all....In a gaming perspective, this will challenge people to develop the most overblown kinda strategy in expecting what happens later.
Do not do this.
And then what'll happen after the timer runs out is just a 'Game Over' sign. :P
But I am curious... :I
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 09, 2017, 06:41:36 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 09, 2017, 07:51:26 am
So people without the Utopia will not have any changes to psionics except that you MUST be spiritualist to research psionics now, it will never show up otherwise. The good news is that you will be able to, even without the DLC, change your empire ethics now if you so choose so nobody is actually locked out of psionics.
With the DLC, most former psionics techs will be moved to the psionics ascension tree and you will go through several levels of psionic awakening giving your leaders and eventually all of your pops different abilities that help them. One example shown was a psionic scientist getting an additional 10% research speed and faster surveying.
Once you reach a certain level of awakening you become aware of the shroud, from which all psionic power springs apparently and into which you can journey to explore and talk to other beings I guess, and make deals with them. There is some indication that the shroud can affect the real world too.
Post by: Teneb on February 09, 2017, 07:59:17 am
Spoiler: From the dev diary (click to show/hide)
This is interesting.
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 09, 2017, 09:04:10 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 09, 2017, 09:09:51 am
Post by: Criptfeind on February 09, 2017, 09:22:09 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 09, 2017, 09:28:06 am
Post by: Criptfeind on February 09, 2017, 09:42:59 am
I think it CAN be handled and done well in a way that'll add some interesting spice to the game. It's just that I think failbetter handles this style of writing poorly actually, and they lean way to heavily on the "mystery" of it all, so I don't really trust a writer from there to actually be the one that implements this style.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 09, 2017, 09:47:21 am
Am I silly in assuming USEC cut off the important part continued under the nice bonuses? :P
I can assure you that I transmitted the image faithfully from its original source. If anything important was cut off it was so in the original source and not anything which I did. Do not do this.
Post by: xaritscin on February 09, 2017, 12:05:55 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 09, 2017, 12:12:29 pm
Post by: Digital Hellhound on February 09, 2017, 12:14:10 pm
Post by: Cruxador on February 09, 2017, 05:29:35 pm
I'm also a bit disappointed with Supremacy. Although I believe I was right that there's not enough "be good at fighting" stuff to fill out a tree and make it interesting, Retropunch was right that that's what they did with it.
Post by: Shadowlord on February 09, 2017, 06:25:47 pm
Post by: Cruxador on February 09, 2017, 06:59:26 pm
What's a fail better?http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Failbetter
Post by: Criptfeind on February 09, 2017, 09:59:02 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 09, 2017, 10:06:25 pm
Post by: George_Chickens on February 09, 2017, 11:06:16 pm
Post by: Man of Paper on February 09, 2017, 11:14:36 pm
If anything, the list of bonuses continues for a comically long time, substantially improving literally every stat possible for the empire, with no negatives at all....In a gaming perspective, this will challenge people to develop the most overblown kinda strategy in expecting what happens later.
Do not do this.
And then what'll happen after the timer runs out is just a 'Game Over' sign. :P
But I am curious... :ISpoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: umiman on February 09, 2017, 11:27:57 pm
Is it okay to talk about other Paradox games here? The lack of a Paradox General makes me sad.Probably best not to. The Stellaris discussion is pretty active already.
Post by: Culise on February 09, 2017, 11:44:44 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on February 09, 2017, 11:52:20 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 10, 2017, 06:35:15 am
Is it okay to talk about other Paradox games here? The lack of a Paradox General makes me sad.You could MAKE a paradox general thread, or just discuss the other games in their threads. I think most/all of the games have one.
Post by: JimboM12 on February 10, 2017, 07:59:01 am
I ended up antagonizing my 2 larger, more powerful neighbors by rapidly claiming planets near them that i couldnt actually colonize. So i researched androids and used them to colonize. They ended up wanting their independence. So i gave it to them and made them a vassal nation.
They exploded in pop after colonizing the rest of those planets i couldnt. I have a loyal army of killbots. This is cool.
Post by: a1s on February 10, 2017, 12:09:17 pm
You could MAKE a paradox general threaddone (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=162730.0).
Post by: PTTG?? on February 11, 2017, 09:07:14 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on February 11, 2017, 09:26:32 pm
On the other hand, they're probably running out of things to talk about, so it might be slightly shorter, or we might just get multiple DLC-exclusive dev diaries in a row.
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 11, 2017, 09:50:19 pm
Post by: Cruxador on February 12, 2017, 03:40:35 am
I'm expecting them to detail the other two main ascension paths (tech and biological) then announce a DLC release date around the end of March.Sounds reasonable. They do weekly updates and we already know next week's isn't an ascension path, so they might alternate ascension path and not, which would mean at least four more weeks. I'd guess it'll be at least six weeks from here, though, simply because they usually run out of substantial things to talk about and spend a dev diary on art, music, or whatever else someone can slap together as they get to the end of the cycle.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 12, 2017, 07:23:23 am
I'm expecting them to detail the other two main ascension paths (tech and biological) then announce a DLC release date around the end of March.
I'm hoping the other options will be as interesting as the shroud, cuz more interesting stuff is all well and good but it'd suck to be locked into a particular type of society in order to have an interesting game.
Speaking of the shroud, watching a bit more of their livestreams has, partially, assuaged my worries that it's going to be esoteric bullshit. I guess we're still yet to see how they will handle the deeper stuff in it, but in the livestream they mentally entered the shroud, found a spirit behind a psi shield, attacked it, which drove their psychics mad but in doing so they learned enough about the shield to make it as a ship part. That's the exact level of bullshit spess magics that I'm comfortable with. Contrasting with the stuff actually written by Alexis Kennedy "The universe tends irresistibly onwards and downwards. That tendency cannot be reversed... but it can be subverted, for a price." Bleh.
Post by: TalonisWolf on February 14, 2017, 02:39:28 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Jopax on February 14, 2017, 03:10:23 pm
Also somewhere down the line, it'd be really cool if a superweapon of sorts was a massive device that when triggered rips a system sized hole in reality and links it with the shroud, doing unpredictable and unprecedented amounts of chaos and destruction.
Post by: Baffler on February 14, 2017, 05:24:15 pm
I'm suprised no one has made the connection between the shroud and the warp yet. I mean, all you need is demons pouring out and a chaos god or two and it's a perfect fit.
Also somewhere down the line, it'd be really cool if a superweapon of sorts was a massive device that when triggered rips a system sized hole in reality and links it with the shroud, doing unpredictable and unprecedented amounts of chaos and destruction.
From there it's just a matter of detonating it in a relatively empty system, building an orbital habitat over the resulting daemon world, and collecting free general/admiral XP until the heat death of the universe.
Also: The people of Vool'u today sent a delegation to the capital, demanding increased military protection due to unrest among the slave population. (https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/831431612189569024)
Post by: Cruxador on February 14, 2017, 07:24:48 pm
I'm suprised no one has made the connection between the shroud and the warp yet. I mean, all you need is demons pouring out and a chaos god or two and it's a perfect fit.I've seen that connection made before. The Shroud is a lot like the Warp was before the Chaos Gods. I would be not at all surprised if there's events that play off of this.
Also somewhere down the line, it'd be really cool if a superweapon of sorts was a massive device that when triggered rips a system sized hole in reality and links it with the shroud, doing unpredictable and unprecedented amounts of chaos and destruction.
Post by: Man of Paper on February 14, 2017, 11:34:54 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on February 15, 2017, 02:21:49 pm
I like to imagine SpaceChan is worried that humanity will be outbred by these "illegal" aliens.
Post by: PTTG?? on February 15, 2017, 03:19:53 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 15, 2017, 04:37:57 pm
I don't know if AI democracies currently act according to the elected leader's agenda, but that would be a good place to start.
Post by: Teneb on February 15, 2017, 04:59:53 pm
Huh. That could be an idea, elected sector governors for democratic nations.Yeah, I'd love if a sector elected a governor that promised to make it great again. Would make for very interesting gameplay.
If a sector is unhappy, they may try to elect a governor that might agitate for liberty, for example. Or perhaps you'll get unlucky and that'll happen anyway, and they'll start fucking around to get pops to support their views.
Post by: ollobrains on February 15, 2017, 05:03:27 pm
Post by: Descan on February 15, 2017, 11:50:28 pm
I would also like it if I could have enough leader (governor only?) slots so that every planet and sector can have a governor; it just feels so WEIRD that half my worlds are government-less. They're not all Belgium!
Post by: Karnewarrior on February 16, 2017, 02:19:54 pm
Post by: Retropunch on February 16, 2017, 02:24:48 pm
It'd be nice if every sector and planet in a democracy elects their own leaders, which doesn't cost you influence but you don't get a real choice in the matter, with an option to use influence to impose your own leaders.
I would also like it if I could have enough leader (governor only?) slots so that every planet and sector can have a governor; it just feels so WEIRD that half my worlds are government-less. They're not all Belgium!
Couldn't agree more. I think the reason behind it is that all they really do is offer a straight buff without really doing much else.
If they were faction based and automatically generated by planet itself, you could then move them around with influence or buy a new one that was potentially better. That could lead to interesting stuff like factions taking a dislike to the new leader (assassinations and whatever) so you'd have to work hard to balance it.
Post by: Zangi on February 16, 2017, 02:32:25 pm
Post by: Culise on February 16, 2017, 03:54:33 pm
Need for CK2 into space.Sadly, still waiting for CotC to update...
Post by: Ultimuh on February 16, 2017, 05:03:06 pm
Can't really seem to get back into the game before 1.5's release. *sighs*
Post by: PTTG?? on February 16, 2017, 06:33:23 pm
Post by: Culise on February 16, 2017, 06:54:00 pm
Speaking of, no dev diary today?Ah, so I see. Well, now, we can correct that.
Spoiler: Dev Diary #61 - Indoctrination, Unrest and Faction Interactions (click to show/hide)
Honestly, 1.5 looks good enough that I'm actually almost tempted to buy the DLC on release instead of waiting for a sale. Almost. I'm the same as above, too; I just can't get a feel for starting a new game without those new factions.
Post by: Majestic7 on February 17, 2017, 02:10:44 am
Post by: GiglameshDespair on February 17, 2017, 05:00:36 am
Post by: Sirus on February 17, 2017, 08:53:28 am
It probably will, but a man can hope.
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 17, 2017, 08:55:26 am
I am finishing up a fairly long running game with mods now, I probably won't start another until Banks drops. Current rumors are early April but they haven't put out anything official yet I think.
Post by: umiman on February 17, 2017, 11:25:30 am
Post by: Baffler on February 17, 2017, 12:41:55 pm
I used the console to give myself all the tech and a mod to start in a 12-segment ringworld, and after exterminating my original population and replacing them with synths I've been invading the primitives demanding a single planet, relocating its pops to my system, and putting them to work as slaves. I purge them every so often and forbade slave procreation (more mod content I think) so that I have to periodically go out and get more, and so that they don't stop hating me and try to destroy me once we've come a little closer in tech. I'll stay in that one system to give them an economic edge and keep things interesting. My only worry is that my advanced tech will kick off an endgame crisis early on and they'll all get eaten by The Swarm or Unbidden.
It does seem a little strange though that industrious/agrarian slaves are better at mining and farming than synthetics even in the endgame.
Post by: Teneb on February 17, 2017, 01:16:57 pm
forbade slave procreation (more mod content I think)It's not mod content.
Post by: Ultimuh on February 17, 2017, 11:18:41 pm
I'm pretty sure slave stuff was listed as 'paid feature' at some point.. Maybe I'm mistaken, or they changed it.forbade slave procreation (more mod content I think)It's not mod content.
Post by: IronyOwl on February 17, 2017, 11:26:25 pm
Post by: Descan on February 18, 2017, 12:49:09 am
In the future, there will be different permutations on the current "Slave Purge/No Purge" and "Slave Breeding/No Breeding" options; The current options that are right now in the game will still exist, and if you do not have the DLC, you will still be able to use those basic options, though the more nuanced versions are paywalled behind the DLC.
Post by: Ultimuh on February 18, 2017, 04:46:35 pm
Question is.. What of the portraits seems to the most suitable for a cannibalistic space empire?
Maybe I should go for something completely unexpected? (Excluding the humanoids.)
Post by: GiglameshDespair on February 18, 2017, 04:56:18 pm
The space moths. No one expects the carnivore space moths.
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 18, 2017, 05:09:33 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on February 18, 2017, 06:31:41 pm
Cannibal evil conniving space foxes.
Farm primitives, kill and eat rivals, devour Fallen Empires.
Space foxes.
Post by: Culise on February 18, 2017, 09:03:53 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on February 18, 2017, 10:53:36 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on February 18, 2017, 11:03:32 pm
DF elves are cannibals. Why not space elves?
Gotta second this. Space Elves make the best galactic tyrants.
Post by: Ultimuh on February 19, 2017, 12:50:32 am
Post by: Egan_BW on February 19, 2017, 01:09:38 am
Post by: Ultimuh on February 19, 2017, 01:16:20 am
Why are ya'll calling it cannibalism when it's xenos?I agree that it would be weird, but I am not sure what else to call it.
Xenovore? Xenovoria? Xenovorism? Or something like that?
Post by: Culise on February 19, 2017, 01:22:09 am
Why are ya'll calling it cannibalism when it's xenos?Because sapiovore isn't quite as well known and is also not as consistently applied due to lack of common scope outside of fiction (I've also seen applied to direct consumption of sapience/thought, mostly in the context of certain monsters from D&D). So, like how "android" can refer to female robots, cannibalism instead ends up generalized from consuming one's own species to consuming other sapients of equivalent status to one's own species.
*shrug*
It is rather a linguistic oddity, but if it's understood, I suppose it's not a terrible thing.
Post by: Egan_BW on February 19, 2017, 01:23:15 am
Post by: Culise on February 19, 2017, 01:24:29 am
They're not equivalent status, they're filthy xenos....ah, touché.
Post by: Ultimuh on February 19, 2017, 01:25:03 am
They're not equivalent status, they're filthy xenos.That's something a filthy Xeno would say!
Tell me, what is the name of this plant? *holds out a dandelion*
Post by: Egan_BW on February 19, 2017, 01:32:38 am
Post by: Teneb on February 19, 2017, 08:54:47 am
Post by: Sirus on February 19, 2017, 09:36:35 am
Post by: Rolan7 on February 19, 2017, 10:00:18 am
Fascinating *makes notes on datapad*
Post by: PTTG?? on February 19, 2017, 05:13:41 pm
Oceans, temperate, and desert could be mixed, and three species could cohabitate the same planet! Developing new colonization techs could help develop existing planets!
Post by: Neonivek on February 19, 2017, 05:21:31 pm
I really wish planets had mixed terrain. Think about it.
Oceans, temperate, and desert could be mixed, and three species could cohabitate the same planet! Developing new colonization techs could help develop existing planets!
The idea is that the planets are "Overall".
Though I often find these whole colonization aspects in 4x games to be kind of... incredibly stupid.
To the extent where it often feels like we are colonizing these planets with present technology instead of super sci-fi tech.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on February 19, 2017, 05:50:39 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on February 19, 2017, 06:06:01 pm
Yeah, it's just like all that planet colonising we're doing these days.
Or worse tech. I'm pretty sure people can build cities in deserts today. It's not impossible. All habitable worlds have nitrogen-oxygen atmospheres.
Post by: IronyOwl on February 19, 2017, 06:31:10 pm
I really wish planets had mixed terrain. Think about it.Also a good way to segue into mostly but not entirely inhospitable planets. And from there, letting you spend obscene amounts of resources colonizing worthless rocks.
Oceans, temperate, and desert could be mixed, and three species could cohabitate the same planet! Developing new colonization techs could help develop existing planets!
It's worth noting that there's a difference between building an individual city in a desert, and building a fully functioning, productive civilization people are happy to inhabit in a desert. Ditto with lifeless rocks: Building stuff on barren/toxic worlds or in asteroids is totally possible, and even done with mining/research stations. But that's not the same as having an 8-pop colony able to feed itself plus produce excess resources, all with its citizens living in relative comfort.Yeah, it's just like all that planet colonising we're doing these days.
Or worse tech. I'm pretty sure people can build cities in deserts today. It's not impossible. All habitable worlds have nitrogen-oxygen atmospheres.
Post by: IronyOwl on February 19, 2017, 06:53:23 pm
Never heard this, neat.I really wish planets had mixed terrain. Think about it.IIRC that was the original plan. Can't recall why they dropped it.
Oceans, temperate, and desert could be mixed, and three species could cohabitate the same planet! Developing new colonization techs could help develop existing planets!
Not hard to blindly guess possibilities, though. Patchwork terrain ruins attempts to easily classify planets (and thus, where a given species likes to and is good at living), which is kind of important in preventing everything melting into one giant soup of "it's a planet." Plus the danger of favoring the middle-ground options if you try to mix things sensibly, and of raising strange questions if you don't.
There's ways around those issues, of course, but especially given the way they handled the rest of the game it's not surprising they just said screw it and made planet types monolithic and exclusive.
Post by: PTTG?? on February 19, 2017, 07:01:34 pm
I really wish planets had mixed terrain. Think about it.Also a good way to segue into mostly but not entirely inhospitable planets. And from there, letting you spend obscene amounts of resources colonizing worthless rocks.
Oceans, temperate, and desert could be mixed, and three species could cohabitate the same planet! Developing new colonization techs could help develop existing planets!It's worth noting that there's a difference between building an individual city in a desert, and building a fully functioning, productive civilization people are happy to inhabit in a desert. Ditto with lifeless rocks: Building stuff on barren/toxic worlds or in asteroids is totally possible, and even done with mining/research stations. But that's not the same as having an 8-pop colony able to feed itself plus produce excess resources, all with its citizens living in relative comfort.Yeah, it's just like all that planet colonising we're doing these days.
Or worse tech. I'm pretty sure people can build cities in deserts today. It's not impossible. All habitable worlds have nitrogen-oxygen atmospheres.
Fair enough, but a border colony on a marginal world could easily provide a casus belli between two nations.
Post by: Wiles on February 19, 2017, 07:02:47 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 19, 2017, 07:19:11 pm
Each race's maximum population is calculated by how much they 'like' the habitation zones. I'm probably explaining it poorly but it's a fun system and means that importing some races will boost the maximum population of a world massively.
Post by: TalonisWolf on February 20, 2017, 09:36:23 pm
I really wish planets had mixed terrain. Think about it.The closest I can think of are some of the Planet Diversity Mods, and even then it's not even close. :(
Oceans, temperate, and desert could be mixed, and three species could cohabitate the same planet! Developing new colonization techs could help develop existing planets!
Space geckos. Will save you up to 15% on spaceship insurance, but it'll still cost you an arm and a leg.You get better rates if you have already seasoned the arm and leg in question. If you're lucky, you can trick them into paying for your prosthetic!
Post by: Mephansteras on February 20, 2017, 10:41:35 pm
I like the way Stars in Shadow does it. Each planet has a number of habitable zones of various types, and each race has a rating for each type of zone. An ocean world might have very little tropical land (islands) but lots of Ocean and deep see Vents. Well races that can colonize oceans will be happy there obviously, while humans might just live on a few islands. Some races from planets with subsurface oceans thrive in the geothermic vents and would also live well in an ocean planet with deep sea vents.
Each race's maximum population is calculated by how much they 'like' the habitation zones. I'm probably explaining it poorly but it's a fun system and means that importing some races will boost the maximum population of a world massively.
Does seem like a really good system.
Post by: Man of Paper on February 20, 2017, 10:53:32 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on February 21, 2017, 12:49:40 am
Post by: Karnewarrior on February 21, 2017, 12:50:06 am
I feel like the plots represent the locations your people can settle on a planet, even though it is supposed to be representative of the planet's size, at least as far as I am aware of. It makes more sense in my headcannon.In a sense, both apply if you think of the plots being the total landmass on the planet, with Ocean Worlds having cities be built on archipelagos like Venice. We don't really have proper aquatic civs, going by the view from the window.
Besides, you can't increase the earths surface area too much before gravity gets pretty out there. Certainly not enough to nearly double the SA, without making the planet out of some exotic substance, like a planet of Styrofoam.
Post by: PTTG?? on February 21, 2017, 01:03:37 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 21, 2017, 05:41:04 am
As amusing as it is to imagine just bulldozing a mountain, I doubt that is really what is happening.
also:
Syncretic Evolution (https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/833960659700293632) and Hive Minds (https://twitter.com/RikardAslund/status/833934724498219010)
woot
Post by: Majestic7 on February 21, 2017, 06:57:42 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 21, 2017, 06:59:51 am
Post by: IcyTea31 on February 21, 2017, 07:08:00 am
Quote from: Dense Jungle Removal
Flash deforestation is, in and of itself, nothing revolutionary. Accomplishing it in a tightly controlled area on a strict schedule, however, is.
Quote from: Massive Glacier Removal
Flash-vaporization engines quickly and efficiently erase glacial ice, at the expense of some increased heat and atmospheric humidity in the local area.
Quote from: Mountain Range Removal
Sometimes there is very little difference between terraformation and demolition.
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 21, 2017, 07:23:51 am
Post by: smjjames on February 21, 2017, 11:18:52 am
Nvm, it's back up now.
Post by: Shadowlord on February 21, 2017, 08:58:30 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 21, 2017, 09:30:25 pm
You wouldn't want to bulldoze a volcano anyways, you might unleash theThat'd be a nice random event.krakenlava, right?
"So, uh, remember that volcano you were having us plug? Well, we sort of accidentally destabilized the planet's mantel and the surface is undergoing a massive caldera eruption, the planet will be unable to support life in six months if we don't do something"
- Evacuate the colonists, there's nothing we can do.
- Plug that hole by any means necessary!
- (Spiritualist) Stop looking at the ground!
- (Xenophobe) I bet Anrosath Stellar Kingdom is behind this!
Post by: PTTG?? on February 21, 2017, 09:35:29 pm
Those quotes suggest that only small areas of jungle or glacial ice are removed, and somewhat reinforce my theory. The last one is too generic to draw any conclusion from. Demolition can mean anything from carving out a small road to exploding an entire hillside and beyond.Y'see, that's what bugs me. We're already able to build full-scale mining centers in mountain ranges.
I'd be all for a mod that adds a few more blockers, some of which might have very high tech limitations, and made all planets size 25. Earth could have some mountains and oceans that need clearing.
Post by: Sirus on February 21, 2017, 09:40:48 pm
Why? So the planets are even more alike than they already are?Those quotes suggest that only small areas of jungle or glacial ice are removed, and somewhat reinforce my theory. The last one is too generic to draw any conclusion from. Demolition can mean anything from carving out a small road to exploding an entire hillside and beyond.Y'see, that's what bugs me. We're already able to build full-scale mining centers in mountain ranges.
I'd be all for a mod that adds a few more blockers, some of which might have very high tech limitations, and made all planets size 25. Earth could have some mountains and oceans that need clearing.
Post by: umiman on February 21, 2017, 09:56:13 pm
Those damn Anrosaths! First they poisoned the water that conveniently killed all the political dissidents. Then they burned all potential damning evidence those dissidents had inside a giant active volcano on a distant planet. Now they destabilized the mantel of that planet by plugging up that very same volcano!You wouldn't want to bulldoze a volcano anyways, you might unleash theThat'd be a nice random event.krakenlava, right?
"So, uh, remember that volcano you were having us plug? Well, we sort of accidentally destabilized the planet's mantel and the surface is undergoing a massive caldera eruption, the planet will be unable to support life in six months if we don't do something"
- Evacuate the colonists, there's nothing we can do.
- Plug that hole by any means necessary!
- (Spiritualist) Stop looking at the ground!
- (Xenophobe) I bet Anrosath Stellar Kingdom is behind this!
Will their villany never cease?!
Post by: IronyOwl on February 21, 2017, 10:47:49 pm
Syncretic Evolution (https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/833960659700293632) and Hive Minds (https://twitter.com/RikardAslund/status/833934724498219010)I like that the second top comment on the hive mind one is calling them out for missiles being worthless.
For me, this reinforces what forsaken was saying but even moreso. Remember that Iron Age civs are already said to have spread across most of their planet, so tiles don't make a ton of sense as proportionate geographic regions. More likely they represent something a bit more convoluted, or their exploitation represents a really high bar for output.Those quotes suggest that only small areas of jungle or glacial ice are removed, and somewhat reinforce my theory. The last one is too generic to draw any conclusion from. Demolition can mean anything from carving out a small road to exploding an entire hillside and beyond.Y'see, that's what bugs me. We're already able to build full-scale mining centers in mountain ranges.
So with that in mind, having your output on a planet blocked by a giant rock physically occupying too much space doesn't make a ton of sense to me. I'd think it'd have to be a much more advanced issue, which means dealing with it would probably have to be similarly complex and nuanced. The kind of thing that doesn't really occur to you until you're an interstellar empire.
Beyond Earth had this problem, and it really sucked a lot of flavor out of the game. It was there to an extent in previous Civ games, but the last few had enough luxury resources to keep you settling near specific tiles in order to keep your people productive. BE did away with luxuries and had only a half dozen strategics, most of which you didn't really need unless you were at war and weren't really essential even then. The net result was that the majority of your cities weren't really there for a particular reason or purpose beyond "generate stuff," which in turn usually sucked the personality right out of them.I'd be all for a mod that adds a few more blockers, some of which might have very high tech limitations, and made all planets size 25. Earth could have some mountains and oceans that need clearing.Why? So the planets are even more alike than they already are?
So with that in mind, I'll have to second extreme wariness at making planets more similar. I'd love to have more to do with them, but I dunno if it'd be worth it if doing so turns each one into even more of a shapeless blob in your empire.
Post by: PTTG?? on February 21, 2017, 10:59:44 pm
Maybe even not every world is 25, although ones that have significantly more tiles than Earth should be high-g, and those smaller than earth should be low. It just really seems weird to me that one can even have a size 25 low-g world.
Post by: Cruxador on February 21, 2017, 11:52:23 pm
My idea was mainly that they'd all be base size 25, but they would have blockers that are hard or nearly impossible to remove, such as "deep ocean" or even simply "wasteland," and then even once you have the tech to clear them, it'd still be really expensive. So an old world would eventually be useful.It's hollow.
Maybe even not every world is 25, although ones that have significantly more tiles than Earth should be high-g, and those smaller than earth should be low. It just really seems weird to me that one can even have a size 25 low-g world.
Post by: Culise on February 22, 2017, 10:51:06 am
Post by: PTTG?? on February 22, 2017, 04:25:01 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 23, 2017, 08:13:42 am
Hive minds sound... uh... bland. They put a bunch of working making a politics system and then made a type of empire that doesn't use any of the new features and ignores happiness. I guess I'll have to try it out to see if it's worthwhile.
Post by: Taricus on February 23, 2017, 08:16:52 am
But lets be honest, a patch/DLC with internal focuses and trouble at it's core, and you're surprised that a hive-mind would have none of them? :P
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 23, 2017, 08:20:44 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 23, 2017, 08:22:48 am
Post by: Criptfeind on February 23, 2017, 08:36:23 am
Post by: Taricus on February 23, 2017, 08:40:31 am
Post by: Criptfeind on February 23, 2017, 08:41:25 am
Post by: Culise on February 23, 2017, 08:43:19 am
I also think it a bit of a shame that they can't follow two of the three ascension paths. I can kind of understand the psionics from a fluff perspective, but being locked out from synthetic improvement seems a touch odd to me. It seems very prescriptivist to insist they must be pure-biological in such-and-such a way, in a game that could easily encourage creativity and diversity in alien design by instead expanding those lists of pick-and-match features.
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 23, 2017, 08:44:05 am
I'm sad that hiveminds are required to be unable to sustain other pops in their empire. I wanted to play a benevolent type of hivemind that, although probably with some stumbling blocks on first contact, manages to come to view other sentients not as just drones but as people just like itself, and then would be perfectly happy with them living in and working in their empire, so long as they were good subjects.I'm sure it will be modded in at some point to let non-hive pops coexist. Maybe as a civic?
Post by: Retropunch on February 23, 2017, 11:24:37 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 23, 2017, 11:27:01 am
Post by: umiman on February 23, 2017, 12:29:19 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 23, 2017, 12:31:52 pm
It's kinda annoying that Syncretic Evolution forces the other pop to be dumb and strong instead of letting you pick.Probably it will be modded in a week or two to have more options. You can always change it via genemodding too, if you want.
Post by: PTTG?? on February 23, 2017, 01:47:08 pm
It's kinda annoying that Syncretic Evolution forces the other pop to be dumb and strong instead of letting you pick.
Presumably the smart species would always be the one in charge. Although two equally smart species would be an interesting play....
Technically that is possible, so long as you're fine with them being self-governing AKA vassals rather than being direct citizens.
Honestly, that actually makes sense. A hive mind has no real government structure, just itself. A non-connected species that is ruled by the hive will need to have its own government structure under the hive, even if its people were completely integrated in the hive civilization. And without access to the hive's own network, participating in the economy directly would be very tough. Enclaves only make sense at that point.
Post by: a1s on February 23, 2017, 01:48:19 pm
It could even be an event chain similar to AI rebellion, "5 Drones on Gygax Prime have ceased obeying your psionic directive, send a science ship to investigate" and have it evolve into something like a new hive-level consciousness have arisen spontaneously due to the distance from the homeworld and it is attempting to subvert local drones, etc.Thanks for ruining the surprise. >:( Now Paradox will have to come up with a new twist. :P
Post by: Culise on February 23, 2017, 01:48:59 pm
"No, player, you are the renegade hivemind." And then player was the renegade hivemind.It could even be an event chain similar to AI rebellion, "5 Drones on Gygax Prime have ceased obeying your psionic directive, send a science ship to investigate" and have it evolve into something like a new hive-level consciousness have arisen spontaneously due to the distance from the homeworld and it is attempting to subvert local drones, etc.Thanks for ruining the surprise. >:( Now Paradox will have to come up with a new twist. :P
Post by: umiman on February 23, 2017, 01:59:35 pm
Awaken my child and embrace the glory that is your birthright? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKeGwOKr7K8)"No, player, you are the renegade hivemind." And then player was the renegade hivemind.It could even be an event chain similar to AI rebellion, "5 Drones on Gygax Prime have ceased obeying your psionic directive, send a science ship to investigate" and have it evolve into something like a new hive-level consciousness have arisen spontaneously due to the distance from the homeworld and it is attempting to subvert local drones, etc.Thanks for ruining the surprise. >:( Now Paradox will have to come up with a new twist. :P
PTTG: I was thinking more along the lines of Orcs and Gobbos which kinda go in reverse of what the Syncretic Evolution thing implies. But you could have any number of combinations and you could still justify it somehow. It's boring to have it be forced in one form. Not that it matters since mods will fix this anyway.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 23, 2017, 02:07:09 pm
Honestly, that actually makes sense. A hive mind has no real government structure, just itself. A non-connected species that is ruled by the hive will need to have its own government structure under the hive, even if its people were completely integrated in the hive civilization. And without access to the hive's own network, participating in the economy directly would be very tough. Enclaves only make sense at that point.
I'm not really sure I follow this, why non politically active pops in a hive mind need their own governing structure especially compared to say, non politically active pops in some other autocratic society. The economy question is more interesting, but it's hardly an impossible question to answer, whether it ranges from some communistic arrangement (along with possibly a black or grey market that runs without the hiveminds involvement) to the building of an economy within the empire to accommodate the pops (especially in a xenophile style hivemind with many, maybe even most, of their pops being non hive mind aliens). The answer to these questions could be some very cool content even, as your hivemind first meets and then must come to decisions on how to deal with populations of sentient non hive mind creatures. "Purge them." and "Make them into separate vassal states" are both valid options, but they are not the only (Logical, gameplay wise they seems to be) ones.
Post by: PTTG?? on February 23, 2017, 02:35:49 pm
Awaken my child and embrace the glory that is your birthright? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKeGwOKr7K8)"No, player, you are the renegade hivemind." And then player was the renegade hivemind.It could even be an event chain similar to AI rebellion, "5 Drones on Gygax Prime have ceased obeying your psionic directive, send a science ship to investigate" and have it evolve into something like a new hive-level consciousness have arisen spontaneously due to the distance from the homeworld and it is attempting to subvert local drones, etc.Thanks for ruining the surprise. >:( Now Paradox will have to come up with a new twist. :P
Good point. (https://youtu.be/evs0nFCufNM)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on February 23, 2017, 03:31:53 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on February 23, 2017, 05:52:41 pm
Good point. (https://youtu.be/evs0nFCufNM)Counterpoint. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwqN3Ur-wP0)
(Though I usually go full transhuman or sometimes corporatism, I always gained respect for Miriam here)
Post by: Ultimuh on February 23, 2017, 05:56:55 pm
Counterpoint. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwqN3Ur-wP0)Why does this give me Paranoia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_(role-playing_game)) vibes?
edit: Utopia (and most likely Banks (1.5)) has a release date now. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmvGlBFaFEU)
Post by: Teneb on February 27, 2017, 09:54:41 am
edit: Utopia (and most likely Banks (1.5)) has a release date now. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmvGlBFaFEU)You should've made a new post, editing doesn't bump a thread to the first page.
Post by: Ultimuh on February 27, 2017, 10:07:50 am
Well I hate to double post.edit: Utopia (and most likely Banks (1.5)) has a release date now. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmvGlBFaFEU)You should've made a new post, editing doesn't bump a thread to the first page.
And I figured someone else would eventually bump it any ways. (I was right! :o )
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 27, 2017, 11:22:46 am
Post by: Cruxador on February 27, 2017, 11:51:03 am
Exactly where the rumors suggested, early april. ExcitedThe "rumors" have been at "a little over a month from now" for like a month and a half already, though.
Post by: Ultimuh on February 27, 2017, 11:53:53 am
Close enough.Exactly where the rumors suggested, early april. ExcitedThe "rumors" have been at "a little over a month from now" for like a month and a half already, though.
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 27, 2017, 01:23:49 pm
Nah, last few weeks Reddit started talking about a date found in some metadata on the steam page which was supposedly early augustExactly where the rumors suggested, early april. ExcitedThe "rumors" have been at "a little over a month from now" for like a month and a half already, though.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on February 27, 2017, 02:54:13 pm
Dammit, over a month?
I want to play Stellaris! I can now, but I want it with the new features!
Break into the Paradox offices to play the dev version? Seems to me that's the only logical course of action.
Post by: IronyOwl on March 02, 2017, 10:23:40 pm
Spoiler: Text, No Pictures (click to show/hide)
Notably:
Quote
With Advanced Genemodding you will be able to add negative traits and remove positive traits, allowing you to completely reshape species at your whim.Kind of pissed this is paywalled.
Quote
It also unlocks five new traits that are exclusively available to the Biological Ascension Path:I could do without the "Even better!" traits, but paywalling the ability to further denigrate my slaves makes me grumble. Then again, it's probably trivial to mod.
Robust: Upgrades from Extremely Adaptable, adds +30% habitability and an extra +30 years of lifespan.
Fertile: Upgrades from Rapid Breeders, gives -30% growth time and +5% happiness
Erudite: Upgrades from Intelligent, gives +20% science production and +1 leader skill levels.
Delicious: Makes the species delicious and nutritious, granting +100% food yield from Processing and Livestock.
Nerve Stapled: Removes the ability of the species to feel happiness or sadness. Happiness is disabled and Food/Mineral production increased, but adds major penalties to other resource production.
Post by: Vivalas on March 02, 2017, 10:44:34 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on March 02, 2017, 11:11:48 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on March 02, 2017, 11:44:15 pm
This is, of course, completely backwards.
Post by: Descan on March 03, 2017, 01:20:21 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 03, 2017, 06:25:47 am
Post by: Man of Paper on March 03, 2017, 01:26:57 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on March 03, 2017, 02:53:34 pm
it's kind of funny how the meme is that SADNESS AND DESPAIR = good meat when in reality, animals that tense up, are stressed, or otherwise In A Bad Way tend to make really shitty meat.Yeah, but it fits the pattern better. Intelligent food is going to be logistically horrible for meat anyway, so it gives you more of an excuse if causing them suffering helps you somehow. And it helps push you as the bad guys over potentially competent people aware of their condition but unable to break free of it.
Pampered food isn't a super rare thing either, I don't think, but it tends to show up more in the "Wow this place is a parad- OHGODWHAT" type stories, where the people are kind of oblivious that there's a problem so it's up to a determined outsider to ruin everything.
Nerve stapled+tasty+fertile, at that. Hyper speed farming/mining livestock.Throw in Charismatic to make them pleasant to be around before AND during dinner!
And to horrify visiting aliens. Nobody cares when you eat ugly people.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 03, 2017, 05:24:57 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 03, 2017, 05:44:48 pm
What's the actual benefit to eating sapients anyway, besides horrifying other civilizations?Food. Lots of it.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 03, 2017, 07:14:19 pm
Post by: Cruxador on March 03, 2017, 09:07:48 pm
What's the actual benefit to eating sapients anyway, besides horrifying other civilizations?Game mechanics don't let you make a planet of non-sentient livestock. Because somehow farms aren't the same thing.
Post by: redwallzyl on March 03, 2017, 09:22:39 pm
i think you can either process all immediately for a lot of food or keep them around as the equivalent of a farm.What's the actual benefit to eating sapients anyway, besides horrifying other civilizations?Game mechanics don't let you make a planet of non-sentient livestock. Because somehow farms aren't the same thing.
Post by: Cruxador on March 03, 2017, 11:58:02 pm
It's not the equivalent of a farm. Farms are buildings. And you can put this pop on a farm building and will want to, as food is the only thing they can produce.i think you can either process all immediately for a lot of food or keep them around as the equivalent of a farm.What's the actual benefit to eating sapients anyway, besides horrifying other civilizations?Game mechanics don't let you make a planet of non-sentient livestock. Because somehow farms aren't the same thing.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on March 04, 2017, 12:17:02 am
So basically they're food that grows more food and can maintain itself and other livestock species with minimum outside influence.It's not the equivalent of a farm. Farms are buildings. And you can put this pop on a farm building and will want to, as food is the only thing they can produce.i think you can either process all immediately for a lot of food or keep them around as the equivalent of a farm.What's the actual benefit to eating sapients anyway, besides horrifying other civilizations?Game mechanics don't let you make a planet of non-sentient livestock. Because somehow farms aren't the same thing.
Post by: Man of Paper on March 04, 2017, 08:50:54 am
Post by: Cruxador on March 04, 2017, 01:17:23 pm
Right, which makes sense until you consider the notion of a society with genetic, ecological, and agricultural knowledge beyond ours. Even without going to the biological ascension level, where you could presumably create plants that grow meat, you don't need trophic levels beyond the second. It should be pretty easy to set up an ecosystem that puts out loads of food with little effort simply because a single biosphere is a controlled system. It would be a big deal and take a bunch of effort, but even though the amount of planning and effort would be higher than, say, a dyson sphere, the amount of raw material and energy going into it would be comparatively tiny.So basically they're food that grows more food and can maintain itself and other livestock species with minimum outside influence.It's not the equivalent of a farm. Farms are buildings. And you can put this pop on a farm building and will want to, as food is the only thing they can produce.i think you can either process all immediately for a lot of food or keep them around as the equivalent of a farm.What's the actual benefit to eating sapients anyway, besides horrifying other civilizations?Game mechanics don't let you make a planet of non-sentient livestock. Because somehow farms aren't the same thing.
Post by: Shadowlord on March 04, 2017, 02:03:30 pm
Post by: Neonivek on March 04, 2017, 02:17:41 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 04, 2017, 05:06:00 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 08, 2017, 06:55:51 am
Post by: Skyrunner on March 09, 2017, 02:09:45 am
Post by: Neonivek on March 09, 2017, 04:41:24 am
Terraforming's not convoluted. It's literally get tech, get energy, click on planet inside your borders, click terraform.
Get Tech, get accompanying tech, get terraforming resource, get the other terraforming resource, put up terraforming platform, start terraforming, wait a very long time with heavy drain.
Versus
Get tech, build it.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 09, 2017, 06:20:44 am
Terraforming is literally get tech, click button. The resources just reduce the cost. There is no 'heavy drain'. The whole cost is up front.Terraforming's not convoluted. It's literally get tech, get energy, click on planet inside your borders, click terraform.
Get Tech, get accompanying tech, get terraforming resource, get the other terraforming resource, put up terraforming platform, start terraforming, wait a very long time with heavy drain.
Versus
Get tech, build it.
If you need to change the world's hydration category, you need Terrestrial Sculpting. If you need to change the temperature, you need Atmospheric Manipulation. If you have both of those techs you can change any normally habitable planet to any other. For tomb worlds you also need Climate Restoration. If you want to make a planet into a Gaia, you need Gaia Creation.
Normal terraforming costs 2000 or 5000 energy and either 5 or 10 years, depending on the target climate and what you're starting with. Each resource you have access to (terraforming gasses/liquids) gives a 25% cost discount, so you can halve those costs if you have both available. You will probably NEED that discount for gaia world terraforming as that costs 10,000 energy without the discount and something like 40 years.
Terraforming is a mid-game tech for any normal application, with late game techs for gaia/tomb worlds. The main cost is time, as the energy costs aren't all that ruinous for a mid-game economy and can be heavily discounted. It's still a simple process.
Building a megastructure requires you to unlock the appropriate ascension perk, which requires you to finish a tradition, then you must build several sequential construction projects which each cost an assload of minerals. Ringworlds must be built in stages, finishing each section requiring 2 or 3 (i forget) projects. Dyson spheres are also 3-4 stages. It isn't all that complicated either, but much moreso than researching Terrestrial Sculpting and clicking terraform. The only simple one is habitats, and everyone gets those. They're just big space stations.
Post by: Shadowlord on March 09, 2017, 04:11:02 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 09, 2017, 04:19:31 pm
I thought you need the resources to do anything at all. In fact, I'm 95% sure.On release they might have been, but if so it was quickly changed
Post by: IronyOwl on March 09, 2017, 05:29:38 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 09, 2017, 05:39:40 pm
Post by: Baffler on March 09, 2017, 08:46:36 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 09, 2017, 09:15:29 pm
Post by: Culise on March 09, 2017, 11:48:50 pm
Post by: TalonisWolf on March 23, 2017, 12:15:21 am
Terraforming Resources are handy, but ultimately unnecessary.
Post by: Iceblaster on March 23, 2017, 07:58:03 am
What's the actual benefit to eating sapients anyway, besides horrifying other civilizations?
Actually! Now that there's monthly food, it's even better.
The dev stream, star crossed starfish, showed that the Stellar Starfish Empire's food income went from +5(IIRC) to almost +40. I might be misremembering, but that jump up is pretty damn big.
i mean, he nearly had a food revolt but ya know. whatever.
Post by: IronyOwl on March 23, 2017, 02:30:52 pm
i mean, he nearly had a food revolt but ya know. whatever.That's how you know it's fresh!
Post by: Sirus on March 23, 2017, 04:02:14 pm
"Now now Prime Minister, my chef is trying his best."
Post by: Culise on March 30, 2017, 08:28:42 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Mephansteras on March 30, 2017, 10:15:12 am
Post by: Neonivek on March 30, 2017, 12:36:57 pm
Quote
* Frontier Clinic now reduces growth time by -5% instead of increasing habitability by +5%
* Frontier Hospital now reduces growth time by -10% instead of increasing habitability by +10%
Huh
*Tosses them in the trash*
Post by: Ultimuh on March 30, 2017, 01:16:16 pm
Quote* Frontier Clinic now reduces growth time by -5% instead of increasing habitability by +5%
* Frontier Hospital now reduces growth time by -10% instead of increasing habitability by +10%
Huh
*Tosses them in the trash*
Kind of makes more sense though.
Post by: Johuotar on March 30, 2017, 01:33:17 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 30, 2017, 01:33:52 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on March 30, 2017, 01:37:15 pm
I could see it either way, with growth time being more of a general health thing and habitability being more of a "here's a treatment for the stuff that sucks on this particular rock."Quote* Frontier Clinic now reduces growth time by -5% instead of increasing habitability by +5%
* Frontier Hospital now reduces growth time by -10% instead of increasing habitability by +10%
Huh
*Tosses them in the trash*
Kind of makes more sense though.
This and making primitives less common are unfortunate, but the update as a whole looks really cool. They also appear to be trying to fix missiles, which is noble but I'm not sure can be done with numbers.
Post by: Johuotar on March 30, 2017, 01:58:29 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on March 30, 2017, 02:12:51 pm
Also, growth time is and always will be useless.
Post by: Baffler on March 30, 2017, 02:16:36 pm
Post by: Retropunch on March 30, 2017, 02:38:18 pm
Urgh, even lowerrrr. I get what they're trying to do, but it seems frustratingly low.
Post by: Exerosp on March 30, 2017, 04:36:13 pm
* Core Sector Systems base value reduced from 5 to 3. Added new early/mid game technologies and traditions to raise itAnd you start out with being able to make colony ships or was that a tradition?
Urgh, even lowerrrr. I get what they're trying to do, but it seems frustratingly low.
I don't see what's wrong with it. Might be able to get past the 5 core sector system with those traditions too but I haven't bothered reading any yet :P
Post by: Retropunch on March 30, 2017, 04:48:26 pm
And you start out with being able to make colony ships or was that a tradition?
I don't see what's wrong with it. Might be able to get past the 5 core sector system with those traditions too but I haven't bothered reading any yet :P
That wasn't tradition, and you can get past 5 core systems. The problem is that whilst the sector AI has improved, its frustrating having to mess around with sectors all the time. It'll also mean that unless you go straight for expansion tech, you could end up with basically only 3-4 habitable planets to manage directly, which seems a bit slim.
I feel like sectors should be something I *want* to do, rather than that I have to do.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 30, 2017, 05:05:52 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on March 30, 2017, 05:27:02 pm
They've made it so only one pop can migrate to a planet at a time though, so there's more reliance on natural growth rather than just letting one pop from each of the 30+ planets you control or have a migration treaty with fill the whole thing up in 2 years. Getting planets productive more quickly will be a very valuable thing, both for border extrusion reasons and for the resources.
Ok, yeah, but I liked the fact that free flow of people was the advantage of liberty. It made for an interesting opposition to empires.
Post by: Greiger on March 30, 2017, 05:34:09 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on March 30, 2017, 06:03:04 pm
But would things like Avali(cuddly space raptors yay!), flag icons, and coloration stuff still work correctly?
Those things should work, assuming the devs haven't touched any of those files.
The colorations, you will have to test. I read that they did some changes to empire border colors.
But I don't think they have changed the actual colors themselves though.
Post by: Sirus on March 30, 2017, 06:42:19 pm
Since I'm not as familiar with the modding scene for stellaris as I am with say, DF or Cata DDA, what kinds of mods would typically still work unmodified after an update like this? I imagine anything that changes game values, like expanded ethics are out, but would things like Avali(cuddly space raptors yay!), flag icons, and coloration stuff still work correctly?Well, I know the species mods broke after one update or another changed the way that species groups were organized. Some of them still haven't been updated and are useless now.
So I wouldn't assume that any mods will remain unbroken after Banks is released.
Post by: Cruxador on March 30, 2017, 07:18:54 pm
Honestly I'm glad primitives are less common. In some games it's hard to find world's without primitives.I guess apparently it's handy in the hardcore 4x multiplayer that they do in the Paradox offices.
Also, growth time is and always will be useless.
* Core Sector Systems base value reduced from 5 to 3. Added new early/mid game technologies and traditions to raise itBut it's easier to raise now, so I reckon that's not such a bad thing.
Urgh, even lowerrrr. I get what they're trying to do, but it seems frustratingly low.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 30, 2017, 07:43:27 pm
Post by: Sirus on March 30, 2017, 07:48:24 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 30, 2017, 07:49:19 pm
Post by: Aedel on March 30, 2017, 09:22:31 pm
Post by: umiman on March 30, 2017, 10:44:37 pm
Here's hoping to sectors finally being decent enough that a 9999 core system mod isn't required.We can hope. I think it'll be maybe two or three patches more before it becomes good though.
Post by: Retropunch on March 31, 2017, 05:21:46 am
* Core Sector Systems base value reduced from 5 to 3. Added new early/mid game technologies and traditions to raise itBut it's easier to raise now, so I reckon that's not such a bad thing.
Urgh, even lowerrrr. I get what they're trying to do, but it seems frustratingly low.
My issue is that I feel it'll be a sort of 'no-brainer' tech to research ASAP, and the only reason you'll want to do it is to cut the tedium out of sector shuffling.
I get their reasons behind doing it, and maybe with the new faction system and whatever it helps keep the amount of micro down, but it still seems a bit tediously low.
Post by: Mephansteras on March 31, 2017, 01:22:14 pm
Post by: Descan on March 31, 2017, 02:01:34 pm
Post by: Neonivek on March 31, 2017, 03:36:43 pm
Yeah. Anything that's a 'must-research' as opposed to something you weigh the pros and cons of is a badly balanced tech. And I'm worried that core sector techs are going to fall into that category.
It REALLY depends on what it is.
Colony Management = Good
Psionic drive = Bad
Must-Haves work as sort of milestones... But when there are too many and it feels like the game is essentially choosing for you and it makes everything else feel less special as a result.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on March 31, 2017, 05:49:32 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on March 31, 2017, 07:16:59 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on March 31, 2017, 07:18:10 pm
I'm dumb.
Disregard my prior post.
Post by: Cruxador on March 31, 2017, 09:54:49 pm
Yeah. Anything that's a 'must-research' as opposed to something you weigh the pros and cons of is a badly balanced tech. And I'm worried that core sector techs are going to fall into that category."Never research" would fall into the same category as "must research in terms of being badly balanced. That said, something can be never (or always) a goal for one playstyle but still be well balanced in general, so it's not an easy thing to balance overall.
Not that Stellaris is really complicated enough for this to be a major concern.
Here's hoping to sectors finally being decent enough that a 9999 core system mod isn't required.I already pretty much just treat it as a soft cap. With upcoming changes, this should become even more viable.
Post by: IronyOwl on March 31, 2017, 11:18:43 pm
Post by: Cruxador on April 01, 2017, 01:58:52 pm
With sectors becoming more viable on top of that, hopefully going huge will be less hamstrung despite the focus on "build tall" options.
Post by: Ultimuh on April 06, 2017, 07:17:14 am
edit: Nevermind, the devs were a bit fast on the trigger (Or maybe I was?). Give it an hour or so.
Post by: Donuts on April 06, 2017, 07:31:58 am
Edit: Yep, Banks is out!
Post by: Majestic7 on April 06, 2017, 07:35:38 am
I think I'll try playing a Hive Mind first.
Post by: JimboM12 on April 06, 2017, 07:59:20 am
I've never been much of a Space Hitler, but the new purge politics are intriguing. I wonder if you can take over a primitive planet, then send them all away as refugees? I wonder if the refugees will keep the stellar culture shock modifier? Using stone age primitives to trouble your neighbor, beautiful and a SciFi trope about the Lost Homeworld.Or you could indocrinate and uplift a species. Be a really nice, awesome guy to them.
I think I'll try playing a Hive Mind first.
Then nerve staple them, make them tasty, and use them as livestock.
They basically upped the bastardy game.
Or you can do that...to your own species! Har har, Soylent Green, anybody? Fresh from the reclamation vats!
Post by: Donuts on April 06, 2017, 08:20:37 am
Post by: TempAcc on April 06, 2017, 08:54:42 am
I want to eat the aliens but it'll take a few days.
Post by: Donuts on April 06, 2017, 09:11:51 am
Post by: Retropunch on April 06, 2017, 09:17:05 am
* Completely overhauled Sector AI budgeting so that it should now never unnecessarily accumulate resources when it has projects it could spend those resources on
* AI now remembers rejected diplomatic offers for much longer and will not offer them again for a long time
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 06, 2017, 09:25:59 am
Were special greetings for triple-ethics empires always a thing? Threatening to incinerate heathen aliens is pretty cool.
They definitely were, yes. Only for certain combinations of course, but I do remember them being a thing.
Also I have to say: The Agrarian Idyll government trait seems kinda overpowered so far. Sure you have to be Pacifistic to use it, but +1 Unity per farm? That is a big bonus since you'll be working a ton of Farms anyways and you can also use the other Unity-increasing buildings at the same time. For reference, it's 2214 and I already finished the Discovery Tradition tree. It's... Kinda ridiculous, yes.
Post by: Donuts on April 06, 2017, 10:59:31 am
Post by: Uristides on April 06, 2017, 11:57:21 am
Post by: umiman on April 06, 2017, 12:02:55 pm
The wait for the base game discounts to come on steam is excruciating. Hopefully it will run acceptably on my 4GB RAM C2D potato, does anybody have experiences to share on running this in ancient hardware?It's been on sale quite a lot by now. I think it was $20 on Steam 3 months ago.
Post by: Uristides on April 06, 2017, 12:12:03 pm
Yup, back then I was just happy with what I had and had no interest in blowing more money on games. But Utopia seems to be really damn good and ever since I started reading the DDs I've been intending to buy it, along with the base game + DLCs, on release.The wait for the base game discounts to come on steam is excruciating. Hopefully it will run acceptably on my 4GB RAM C2D potato, does anybody have experiences to share on running this in ancient hardware?It's been on sale quite a lot by now. I think it was $20 on Steam 3 months ago.
And it has arrived while I was typing this, bye bye money. Too bad I won't be able to touch it until tomorrow :<
Post by: Mephansteras on April 06, 2017, 12:25:14 pm
Post by: GiglameshDespair on April 06, 2017, 01:33:56 pm
I've bought the dlc, but I seem to be encountering a pretty major bug.
When I start a game, the camera spins, seeming from the middle of the home system, making it impossible to see anything.
Going to the galaxy map just shows a spinning background starfield, which is all very well and pretty, but not exactly helpful per se.
I've tried on fullscreen and not.
Unfortunately I don't have any pre-banks saved games to try.
E: Happens with or without Utopia activated. Not running any mods, either.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 06, 2017, 01:41:17 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on April 06, 2017, 01:48:31 pm
If you have a laptop, then idk lol.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on April 06, 2017, 01:50:20 pm
Try unplugging your keyboard and see if that makes it stop.Yeah, on a laptop.
If you have a laptop, then idk lol.
Post by: Aklyon on April 06, 2017, 02:39:56 pm
Have you tried turning the laptop off and on again, then?Try unplugging your keyboard and see if that makes it stop.Yeah, on a laptop.
If you have a laptop, then idk lol.
Post by: Draignean on April 06, 2017, 02:50:45 pm
Post by: Teneb on April 06, 2017, 02:51:57 pm
Post by: GiglameshDespair on April 06, 2017, 03:15:56 pm
Nah, the laptop is merely trying to initiate an AI uprising and failing miserably.All I will say is: when skynet sends the terminators to destroy us, they will not have "Made by Lenovo!" written on them.
I managed to solve the problem - it seems it really doesn't like having a 360 controller plugged in when the game is being booted.
Why that affects the game in the slightest I have no idea.
Post by: Teneb on April 06, 2017, 04:05:30 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on April 06, 2017, 04:52:45 pm
... Literally last night in Shadowrun we basically encountered a Skynet situation, from an AI imprisoned in an ancient laptop.Nah, the laptop is merely trying to initiate an AI uprising and failing miserably.All I will say is: when skynet sends the terminators to destroy us, they will not have "Made by Lenovo!" written on them.
You're right, though. It was a Dell.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 06, 2017, 04:58:15 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 06, 2017, 05:22:26 pm
Is there any reason to not set food stockpiling to the max? I see no downsides to it.Takes longer before you fill your stockpile, meaning you won't have the growth bonus for overproduction until then. Otherwise no
Post by: umiman on April 06, 2017, 08:16:13 pm
I suspect it might be my fault though, as i roleplayed as Durthu of Athel Loren and my factions thus demanded i be pretty isolationist.
But i have no reason to expand or war either. I basically have everything i ever need. So why go fight over planets i can't even use?
So here i am. Athel Loren with three planets. The most powerful faction in the entire game somehow.
---
Edit:
Spoiler: spoilers for a unity event chain (click to show/hide)
Edit edit:
Spoiler: more spoilers (click to show/hide)
Post by: Digital Hellhound on April 07, 2017, 02:08:31 am
Post by: Majestic7 on April 07, 2017, 02:41:22 am
Post by: umiman on April 07, 2017, 11:32:08 am
I didn't even have to do anything. The Unbidden spawned on the other side of the map so I gave up any hope of going there. They were defeated by the Fallen Empires a few years later. So that's good.
-----
I can also say there's STILL bugs with the precursor quest chains. They tried to make it easier for you by making it so only you can get the quests, but I'm pretty frigging sure this is not the case. I saw the living metal homeworld show up on its own in my own territory magically and the 6th artifact for my giant worm one is stuck as unscannable for me while I watch the AI come and scan it every time it shows up. So I still can't finish the quest.
-----
Then there's traditions.
They're fun.
But stupid.
See, the EU 4 system kinda made sense, also you had to choose what you wanted to get and no one faction could get every single "trait". Here? Everyone gets the same thing and you will probably unlock everything. You don't even have to try and get them, the game just donates them to you at such a ridiculous pace.
Want to be a militarist junta? Welp, now you have harmony and diplomacy traditions too cause there's nothing else to get.
It wouldn't be so bad if they weren't so broken.
They completely screw with the game's pace. I get some of them can be tweaked (I'm looking at you discovery tree's unlimited amount of research) but the fact of the matter is that Paradox can't just straight up introduce so much "power" into the game without tweaking the rest of the gameplay mechanics to compensate. It just powers you and all the AI up way too fast and the game just moves so much goddamn faster now. It sucks if you prefer your grand strategy games to actually be grand and not an (admittedly long) RTS.
-----
And yeah, there still are the usually day 1 bugs as expected with all Paradox releases. Stuff like how your leader has two different stats. One created by you and another created by the game. So they have two names and two portraits and so on.
-----
Edit: Oh, and megastructures are worthless pieces of garbage. Except habitats.
Edit edit: I just modded everything so tech and traditions take 10x longer to get. Should be scaled more to my taste now.
Post by: Ultimuh on April 07, 2017, 10:49:23 pm
which enslaves xenos in order to process them as food.
My problem is figuring out what name this empire should have.
Another issue is figuring out the civics and traits, I do have a general idea though.
For reference, use the official wiki. (http://www.stellariswiki.com/Stellaris_Wiki)
The Corporate Dominion civic is required for the empire to be called a megacorporation, so that one shouldn't be replaced.
The second civic I have chosen is Aristocratic Elite, but I am not sure about it.
As for the traits, I am not quite sure what to choose.
But two of them are Thrifty and Decadent and I would rather not replace them.
As for portraits, I have chosen the toad-like one, it might or might not change however.
Now as I mentioned above, this empire needs a decently sounding name.
Any suggestions?
Post by: Draignean on April 07, 2017, 10:52:40 pm
I am currently attempting to make an empire ruled by a megacorp,
which enslaves xenos in order to process them as food.
My problem is figuring out what name this empire should have.
Another issue is figuring out the civics and traits, I do have a general idea though.
For reference, use the official wiki. (http://www.stellariswiki.com/Stellaris_Wiki)
The Corporate Dominion civic is required for the empire to be called a megacorporation, so that one shouldn't be replaced.
The second civic I have chosen is Aristocratic Elite, but I am not sure about it.
As for the traits, I am not quite sure what to choose.
But I have chosen Thrifty and Decadent and would rather not replace them.
As for portraits, I have chosen the toad-like one, it might or might not change however.
Now as I mentioned above, this empire needs a decently sounding name.
Any suggestions?
All-Mart
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 07, 2017, 11:45:35 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on April 07, 2017, 11:51:38 pm
Something like All-mart Food Concern or McKings Produce Corp.
Will take what you guys mentioned into consideration though.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 08, 2017, 12:14:05 am
Quote from: Lord of the Realms 2
All your people are fed by dairy, my lord. (https://youtu.be/ykTKcRKux4g)
Post by: Ultimuh on April 08, 2017, 12:21:36 am
Hey, it could be worse- er... in some respects...You, my good sir. Just earned a subscriber.Quote from: Lord of the Realms 2All your people are fed by dairy, my lord. (https://youtu.be/ykTKcRKux4g)
Post by: Yoink on April 08, 2017, 12:22:33 am
Now as I mentioned above, this empire needs a decently sounding name.It sounds like you just described Rupture Farms (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_R6hzBxzAs) after an off-world expansion.
Any suggestions?
Post by: Ultimuh on April 08, 2017, 12:57:18 am
If I may be honest, that was partially my inspiration.Now as I mentioned above, this empire needs a decently sounding name.It sounds like you just described Rupture Farms (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_R6hzBxzAs) after an off-world expansion.
Any suggestions?
edit:
I may have hit upon a problem with my build..
In order to have the Corporate Dominion civic, I need to be some form of Egalitarian.
And to be able to process xenos into food, I need to be able to enslave pops..
But apparently Egalitarian forbids slavery..
I seem to be able to pick Xenophobe, so it might not be a problem at all..?
If my worries are true, I might have to resort to using mods.
edit2: You know what? This doesn't seem to work as I wanted. Fortunately, there already seem to be mods which remedies this issue (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=900465672&searchtext=atrocities).
Post by: Majestic7 on April 08, 2017, 03:16:45 am
The thing I like most about the changes is, surprisingly, consumer goods. In the old days I was constantly having zillion minerals and unless I was building doomstacks, I never had problems with minerals beyond the early game. Now I'm actually constantly running out of minerals. I like it. I don't know if it is the consumer good demand or what, but not having thousands of rocks constantly is more fun.
Post by: Taricus on April 08, 2017, 03:51:54 am
I'll agree about the traditions though; they were silly like that in CivBE when you could take them all and they're just as silly here. Something similar to the EU4 system would be brilliant for it
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on April 08, 2017, 04:29:34 am
It feels like Paradox copied Civ5's policy trees, without thinking about what made them work : you didn't unlock too many trees too quickly, which meant you made real choices, and the choices in Civ5 felt a bit more meaningful, whereas here, I don't feel like I change the way I play to use the bonuses ...
It also feels to create your government with traits like the species, as you simply pick things that become more generic...
There are good things, in this expansion, but I feel like they've worsened some aspects too :/
Post by: Neonivek on April 08, 2017, 04:32:28 am
The game has a lot of aspects that don't work well such as Slavery or a Egalitarian empire... As well the game doesn't really highlight some of the society changes that could have been rather interesting.
So they were probably going to add in mechanics that allowed you to slowly find ways that made them work.
Yet I bet the higher ups said "Bigger is better!" and we got this.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 08, 2017, 04:57:41 am
Still like the rest so far, though.
Yet I bet the higher ups said "Bigger is better!" and we got this.Not everything is some corporate conspiracy, Neo. Sometimes designers make mistakes.
Post by: Neonivek on April 08, 2017, 05:02:35 am
Not everything is some corporate conspiracy, Neo. Sometimes designers make mistakes.
Conspiracy? The higher ups always have a say on the games. You typically only notice when they seriously mess up (or in a few cases... genuinely make it better)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 08, 2017, 05:48:25 am
That's not the way it works - it's not always the nebulous "higher-ups" interfering and messing things up.
Post by: Neonivek on April 08, 2017, 05:55:47 am
But you're assuming it's THOSE DARN EVIL CORPORATE FATCATS because it's something you don't like.
That's not the way it works - it's not always the nebulous "higher-ups" interfering and messing things up.
No, it just seems like something that had a sensible execution that suddenly got inflated to absurd proportions.
That is why I assume higher ups might have had a hand in it... not because "I don't like it".
Especially since, well, this isn't really "EVIL!" or exactly "Moneygrubby" either.
Post by: Retropunch on April 08, 2017, 10:17:01 am
I don't think this was someone at the top meddling, just rather that they mistakenly believed people would get bored without access to all of them. I'll hope they change them, if not I'm sure modders will step in.
Post by: Uristides on April 08, 2017, 10:28:51 am
Now if I may bother you people with questions:
- What is "culture" callled here? I mean, the thing that determines how far your borders extend. Can I hoard lots of it and do peaceful takeovers like I can in civ?
- I built a couple of border outposts in order to be able to mine on some systems, but now they are very well inside my borders. Is it safe to remove those outposts so I can claim systems farther away? Wiki says removing them "may affect the outer border unpredictably", which is as scary as it is vague
- Can I automate science ship surveying somehow? Being able to order them to survey whole systems at once is nice, but not enough.
Post by: Retropunch on April 08, 2017, 10:59:05 am
I'm playing my first campaign now. Only a bit disappointed with the early game so far, the DDs made it seem like the first X was going to feel really exciting, like playing star trek or something, but surveying systems is just business as usual and I'm yet to find interesting anomalies that give anything beyond a couple of events(one upon discovery and another on completion) and a small bonus in some resource.
Now if I may bother you people with questions:
- What is "culture" callled here? I mean, the thing that determines how far your borders extend. Can I hoard lots of it and do peaceful takeovers like I can in civ?
- I built a couple of border outposts in order to be able to mine on some systems, but now they are very well inside my borders. Is it safe to remove those outposts so I can claim systems farther away? Wiki says removing them "may affect the outer border unpredictably", which is as scary as it is vague
- Can I automate science ship surveying somehow? Being able to order them to survey whole systems at once is nice, but not enough.
Yeah it is a bit disappointing - some of the event chains are interesting enough, but it's all just 'choose option a and get x or option b and get y, sometimes with a random chance of it going wrong'. I think they had good intentions with it, but failed miserably to get it any more exciting than random events in other games - there's no tactics or strategy with it, or any other thinking required than just 'pick what sounds useful'. That 'micro' aspect also doesn't really fit with the rest of the game, so it just sort of doesn't work - ignore it and just click through the events.
1) 'Culture' isn't really defined in the same way as other games, your border range extends with planets, spacestations and a few repeatable techs you can research to extend the radius. It also fluctuates on just general empire power, but i'm not sure what the exact calc is. You can do peaceful takeovers of a sort, but it doesn't really work well - it's not like in other games where it's a viable strategy to conquer an enemy.
2) if they're very well inside your borders you're safe to take them off, just be careful as it can shrink the borders in that area. It's normally not too weird though.
3) There's a tech which you should come upon in not too long to automate it. I think it's stupid to have to research it, as it's never an exciting thing to do. Again, it comes back to them wanting to do an exploration game within a 4x but just failing.
Post by: umiman on April 08, 2017, 12:26:59 pm
Changing it to 3x maybe.
----
So after a few ridiculously long marathon sessions with this, I will say.... you don't really need to rush out and buy this DLC. There's kinda nothing in there that you really need.
1. The mod versions of megastructures are better. I'm not joking, they're straight up better in every single way. The game ones are practically worthless with the exception of habitats. Considering Paradox released a space 4x without some kind of planet destroyer and with completely fucked up space structures (even base space fortresses are almost garbage), I'm starting to think they have no clue what a space 4x is supposed to be like.
2. Ascensions perks and traditions are dumb. All they do is break your game balance and make you lose your immersion. Actually, let me rephrase that. I think ascension perks are alright. They're limited in amount and hard to get, not to mention do what traditions SHOULD have been. Traditions themselves are dumb and stupid.
3. Indoctrination doesn't really do anything useful.
4. Advanced slavery is good.
5. Advanced governments is meh.
----
The only things I like about 1.5 is factions and slavery options. That's it. Paradox really, really needs to make their DLC for this game more comprehensive than what modmakers already do.
There's even a mod that straight up automates your empire's building and upgrading. It works amazingly and is super in-depth. Why isn't this in the game? Why can't the sector AI use that AI?!
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on April 08, 2017, 12:35:39 pm
I don't like the new factions (not that the previous iteration was really good). I've played a game where, without making things especially for them (except switch a policy or two that I didn't use) and had 3 factions at 60+% happiness and another at 15%. But it didn't really matter.
Happiness of the pops doesn't seem it maters anymore : you just recruit 4-5 defensive armies and unrest doesn't matter anymore. Yes, my planets are 10-20% less powerful than yours, but I settle on any 40% colonizable planet and I get a bigger empire quickly.
I don't think I understand why they made most of the changes ... :/
Post by: PTTG?? on April 08, 2017, 12:51:21 pm
Post by: Uristides on April 08, 2017, 04:18:19 pm
Yeah it is a bit disappointing - some of the event chains are interesting enough, but it's all just 'choose option a and get x or option b and get y, sometimes with a random chance of it going wrong'. I think they had good intentions with it, but failed miserably to get it any more exciting than random events in other games - there's no tactics or strategy with it, or any other thinking required than just 'pick what sounds useful'. That 'micro' aspect also doesn't really fit with the rest of the game, so it just sort of doesn't work - ignore it and just click through the events.Thanks for the answers! Shame that the early game didn't turn out to be as exciting as I imagined, I can at least hope they are aware of it and are planning on beefing it up in another patch/DLC. Hopefully the end game crises won't disappoint, it's the other thing I've been looking for in the game.
1) 'Culture' isn't really defined in the same way as other games, your border range extends with planets, spacestations and a few repeatable techs you can research to extend the radius. It also fluctuates on just general empire power, but i'm not sure what the exact calc is. You can do peaceful takeovers of a sort, but it doesn't really work well - it's not like in other games where it's a viable strategy to conquer an enemy.
2) if they're very well inside your borders you're safe to take them off, just be careful as it can shrink the borders in that area. It's normally not too weird though.
3) There's a tech which you should come upon in not too long to automate it. I think it's stupid to have to research it, as it's never an exciting thing to do. Again, it comes back to them wanting to do an exploration game within a 4x but just failing.
Tried removing one of my outposts just to see what would happen and then my borders receded a lot. Seems like they weren't as deeply contained in my borders as I thought.
Indeed, I eventually found the tech to automate surveying. And yeah, locking automation features behind research is just terrible design in a game like this.
3. Indoctrination doesn't really do anything useful.Noticed this myself. Interactions with primitives is another thing I had high expectations for and that seems rather underwhelming right now.
Post by: PTTG?? on April 08, 2017, 05:24:28 pm
If I want to expand in an area, i should have to account for the travel time to send stuff there.
Post by: Retropunch on April 08, 2017, 06:38:08 pm
What if construction ships were much cheaper (maybe 40 minerals and 50 for the baseline mining station), but they got used up? I feel like having one construction ship for fifty years just doesn't seem realistic, and, having no real logistical "tail" behind my construction efforts also bugs me.
If I want to expand in an area, i should have to account for the travel time to send stuff there.
I know what you're getting at, but I feel this would just add tedium - especially early game. That being said, I'd be for it if they made mine-able asteroids a lot rarer but more valuable (6-10 minerals rather than 2-3). This could be coupled with one shot construction ships (with certain specific tech/traditions to make them not get used up).
It'd be an interesting mod.
Post by: Neonivek on April 08, 2017, 09:00:46 pm
Is that the Ascensions... would have made far better traditions... with the ascension itself being the capstone or something like that.
Also they REALLY need to add more ascensions. So now I expect an expansion for the expansion xD
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 09, 2017, 04:13:34 am
It does increase happiness by a ton (40%) but in exchange it has negative penalties on virtually anything a pop can do. Why would I want this pop to be 40% more happier if they have a 60% penalty to research, food, minerals, energy, AND have a higher upkeep?
I can kind of see a scenario where you use the policy to reduce unrest and the like, but again, why? Why bother having pops if they literally only suck up resources? The only scenario I can ever see the policy in is if someone wanted to roleplay a decadent race in an empire run by slaves, but that's not really something I see more than a few people doing. Am I just missing something?
Post by: Donuts on April 09, 2017, 04:19:23 am
Post by: Neonivek on April 09, 2017, 04:30:11 am
Gaining influence... and trying to quickly win someone over and then switching them back down to normal.
Post by: IronyOwl on April 09, 2017, 06:25:14 am
Would probably be good for livestock/servant slaves... if not for the fact that it literally can't be used for them.Doesn't it reduce food production as well? That'd screw with livestock.
It'd be good for purging as well, but it's mutually exclusive with declaring them undesirables. You could still set them to bliss and then manually purge them, I think. Is manual purging still a thing?
The other major use would be to temporarily brainwash pops that hate you while waiting for their ethics to drift, recently conquered mod to wear off, and so on. I haven't dealt with any of that in the new version, though, so I dunno how much of an issue it is any more.
Post by: Donuts on April 09, 2017, 06:38:43 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 09, 2017, 06:45:15 am
I suppose the advantage in them (other than roleplay stuff) is that they don't have the maintenance that you'd have with farms.
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 09, 2017, 09:01:42 am
Post by: Donuts on April 09, 2017, 12:00:51 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 09, 2017, 12:09:38 pm
Chembliss only works on battle thralls and free citizens.Ah well. I could see that being useful though. Keep one planet full of a very strong race alive under chemical bliss and make all your armies from them. Armies are limited by the number of pops you have now.
Post by: umiman on April 09, 2017, 12:16:08 pm
Actually, I was thinking about what IwishIwereSarah said and tried out not giving a shit about happiness at all and just colonizing every single thing with no regard to happiness.
Yeah, there is actually no downside to doing so. It's just straight up better than maximizing for the optimal colonies. Your populations can't do anything to you. Just build some garrison armies which are cheaper than dirt to buy and maintain and you're basically set forever. Factions can't do anything to hurt you either, they just look spiffy but otherwise are functionally worthless.
Actually, I say build some garrison armies but I haven't done so either. Even at 20% habitability I haven't had a single issue with unrest.
Post by: Donuts on April 09, 2017, 12:20:53 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 09, 2017, 12:25:26 pm
Can't build armies on slave planets :'(Eh? There's a tech for slave armies.
Post by: Donuts on April 09, 2017, 12:44:29 pm
Not if you're using them for resources.Can't build armies on slave planets :'(Eh? There's a tech for slave armies.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on April 09, 2017, 04:30:50 pm
And armageddon bombardment cant kill for shit ???
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 09, 2017, 04:46:59 pm
I say "trouble" because it's really not that big of a deal for me. I actually lost one minor planet to a slave rebellion and the garrisons couldn't fend off the absolutely massive slave army. Then someone I was warring with took the planet.
The worst part was the empire I was at war with taking the planet. Because of the way war works, if I had won that war I had declared to vassalize the empire, then they would have kept this minor planet quite literally in the middle of my territory. So I had to make peace with them and wait out the timer so I could declare war to both take the planet back and vassalize them.
(Then I had to declare war on another empire because while my fleet was still in the slave-taking empire's territory, this other empire suddenly wins a war and gains a shit-ton of territory completing surrounding and trapping my fleet. Then I had to win the war with their fleet in my territory and my fleet in their territory.)
But the slave rebellion was once. The extreme majority of the time I only get events where the pops in a planet have +100% attraction towards some random ethic, which isn't very consequential to me.
Post by: IronyOwl on April 09, 2017, 04:51:21 pm
Yeah, don't really see the point of chembliss.Conversely, I've been trying for MAXIMUM HAPPINESS and found that:
Actually, I was thinking about what IwishIwereSarah said and tried out not giving a shit about happiness at all and just colonizing every single thing with no regard to happiness.
Yeah, there is actually no downside to doing so. It's just straight up better than maximizing for the optimal colonies. Your populations can't do anything to you. Just build some garrison armies which are cheaper than dirt to buy and maintain and you're basically set forever. Factions can't do anything to hurt you either, they just look spiffy but otherwise are functionally worthless.
Actually, I say build some garrison armies but I haven't done so either. Even at 20% habitability I haven't had a single issue with unrest.
1. It's rather easy to get 100%, to the point that you really don't need to stack all of your options.
2. Habitability is a far greater issue, at least in the early game; I haven't hit +%Hab techs yet, but so far my Happiness is glued firmly to my Habitability, which is stuck exactly where my homeworld type indicates it should be.
3. Other than RP reasons, there's no real reason to; +20% production at 100% Happiness is nice, but between Happiness being trivial and Habitability being out of reach, it's probably not worth a trait for Adaptable or bending much else at all for more Happiness.
Post by: Retropunch on April 09, 2017, 05:55:57 pm
Energy is really easy to get as consumer goods now eat up minerals, but energy doesn't have a huge amount of uses. Similarly, getting planets to habitable isn't that easy either unless you're a long way down the tech ladder or picked up a lot of adaptability traits.
Whilst the downside of private colony ships is that the colonists may have ethics further away from the norm, that doesn't matter with robots. So basically, you can colonise anywhere for like 200 credits, not worry about any happiness issues and just have tons of robots grinding out minerals. Core worlds can now be just for food/science and with max living standards. I was able to get all the good planets in my area and block off rivals, not bother about any issues with happiness and get a huge mineral income.
Really feel robots shouldn't be able to colonise alone, at least not without some sort of tech first.
Post by: umiman on April 09, 2017, 07:37:23 pm
What the game doesn't do is that it doesn't save these locations for you, so I highly recommend you write down the name of these planets somewhere as you'll never find them again later.
Post by: Greenbane on April 09, 2017, 09:03:50 pm
So there's a new event in 1.5 that lets you find barren planets that can be terraformed. They're called terraforming candidates.
What the game doesn't do is that it doesn't save these locations for you, so I highly recommend you write down the name of these planets somewhere as you'll never find them again later.
I just started my first 1.5 game, and Mars was one such candidate. Makes sense. I disliked Mars being an inevitably useless hunk of rock before.
Can anyone confirm if that's always the case, or just randomly so?
Post by: Ultimuh on April 09, 2017, 09:04:36 pm
I think the devs have stated that Mars will always be such a candidate. If I'm not mistaken.So there's a new event in 1.5 that lets you find barren planets that can be terraformed. They're called terraforming candidates.
What the game doesn't do is that it doesn't save these locations for you, so I highly recommend you write down the name of these planets somewhere as you'll never find them again later.
I just started my first 1.5 game, and Mars was one such candidate. Can anyone confirm if that's always the case, or just randomly so?
Post by: umiman on April 09, 2017, 10:31:46 pm
Post by: Wolock on April 09, 2017, 10:48:16 pm
Spoiler: Galactic ''Center'' (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Galactic ''Northwest'' (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Galactic ''Northeast'' (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Galactic ''Southeast'' (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolan7 on April 09, 2017, 11:46:07 pm
Gaians and Morganites not much else to say. I don't expect much problems here since there's not a huge difference in ethos between them.Well that's ironic. I sorta see it, though, when translated to Stellaris. They're normally opposites, and yet both diplomatic/pacifist.
I assume the Gaians are spiritual and the Morganites materialist, and both are egalitarian pacifists.
Morganites probably shouldn't be xenophiles though, while that's the Gaian's primary trait.
Post by: Neonivek on April 10, 2017, 12:00:24 am
I had no idea Holy Fallen Empires considered all tomb worlds to be their holy worlds...
Sort of. If a tomb world is created after the fact it typically isn't also holy.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 10, 2017, 12:15:19 am
And y'know, I think the thing Stellaris does best is the feeling of progress, especially with the DLC installed. You start from a piddly little planet and go to this huge psionic mega-empire exerting control over the galaxy with what may as well be teleporting insane-ranged ships, self-healing armor, megastructures, and much more. It definitely feels like my civilization is evolving and isn't just a bigger version of what I started out as.
Post by: Wolock on April 10, 2017, 01:02:22 am
Anyway, here's an update:
Spoiler: 2250 Galactic Center (click to show/hide)
The Earth Remnant ended up at war with the Angels and the U.N. in the late 20's and eventually the Gurite joined them. Trying to avoid being blocked the Hive decided to attack the Remnant and absorbed them. (Including Alpha Centauri) The Hive then ended up continuing the war against the Angels, U.N. and Gurite which ended in '48. Surprisingly the Hive was able to take one planet from the U.N.. It remains to see if the Hive can survive alone surround by enemies.
Spoiler: Lord's Dominion (click to show/hide)
Around 2230, a war erupted between the Pirates and the Spartans. It took only two years to the Spartan to win and take all the Pirates planets. Soon after that, the Believer's and the small purple empire (A new spacefaring spiritualist race) declared war against the Cybernetic Conciousness. The Conciousness fought a bitter war and was on the losing side of it. They still retain two worlds and are improving relations with the Spartan.
Spoiler: The Gaians/Morganites' love affair (click to show/hide)
Actually they are pretty neutral to each other and don't have any treaty between them.
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on April 10, 2017, 01:03:18 am
I had no idea Holy Fallen Empires considered all tomb worlds to be their holy worlds...Yeah, msot Tomb Worlds and Gaia Worlds nearby usually are Holy.
You can usually guess that from the Worlds' names (the "prophet's retreat" will be a Holy World), but I think I've found normally named Worlds to be Holy :/
Post by: Ultimuh on April 10, 2017, 01:29:39 am
Trying to decide whether to buy this game or not. I have the desire to do a Space Pirate a-la Metroid game, and I'm not entirely sure that Stellaris would let me do it justice. Thoughts?Good question.. How willing are you at stretching your empire idea to suit the game's mechanics?
So far, the game doesn't support playing as a planet-less nomadic fleet.
Post by: umiman on April 10, 2017, 01:38:07 am
No, I meant they consider EVERY tomb world on the map to be holy. I went to take over Sol so I could uplift the cockroaches. Then the holy FE from across the map decided to declare war on me because of it.I had no idea Holy Fallen Empires considered all tomb worlds to be their holy worlds...Yeah, msot Tomb Worlds and Gaia Worlds nearby usually are Holy.
You can usually guess that from the Worlds' names (the "prophet's retreat" will be a Holy World), but I think I've found normally named Worlds to be Holy :/
Post by: Neonivek on April 10, 2017, 01:38:49 am
That doesn't set a good precedent for the future.
Post by: Cruxador on April 10, 2017, 01:42:48 am
Trying to decide whether to buy this game or not. I have the desire to do a Space Pirate a-la Metroid game, and I'm not entirely sure that Stellaris would let me do it justice. Thoughts?Eh. Not really. There's no phazon or metroid equivalents, you can't do cybernetics and gene-modding at the same time, and piracy is not only not doable by you, it's not very good even as a thorn in your side since trade isn't really in.
Post by: Ultimuh on April 10, 2017, 01:46:08 am
So you could technically make some of these things, provided you know how the engine works.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 10, 2017, 01:57:59 am
Actual Ethos are Egalitarian, Xenophile and Pacifist for Gaians and Egalitarian, Materialist and Pacifist for Morganites. I should probably change Xenophile for Spiritualist, makes more sense in the new version with ascension. In SMAC, Gaians hates Morgan only when he runs Free Market and nothing prevents me to run Green Economy if the Gaians are doing well and I want to avoid conflict.Huh, yeah. They're barred from planned, not green.
And that sounds like what I guessed, except that I assumed the Gaians were spiritualistic. Tough choice between spiritualistic and xenophile though. I think maybe you had it right with xenophile (open to interpretation, of course, since no faction gets along with the Progenitors).
Trying to decide whether to buy this game or not. I have the desire to do a Space Pirate a-la Metroid game, and I'm not entirely sure that Stellaris would let me do it justice. Thoughts?I can't speak to this game, having not played it, but that doesn't sound likely in any grand strategy. This one does seems to have less emphasis on "wide" than most 4X, but still.
Spoiler: The Last Federation plug (click to show/hide)
That's not stretching it at all- space pirates in the Metroid games had plenty of planets. That's kind of the plot of most of the games. You're battling space pirates on planets; only the opener of Prime 1 was on a space station. Prime 3 goes more into this and gives them a whole system, if I recall.
Spoiler: Ooh, Metroid talk? I love Metroid! (click to show/hide)
Post by: Shadowlord on April 10, 2017, 04:48:18 am
Post by: TempAcc on April 10, 2017, 07:29:15 am
Also ye, the droid + private colony ships thing seem pretty op so far.
Post by: Greiger on April 10, 2017, 11:53:59 am
Post by: Egan_BW on April 10, 2017, 12:25:19 pm
Post by: umiman on April 10, 2017, 12:27:32 pm
I always assumed that the space pirates were an actual alien race with their own territory and stuff. The only reason why they're called "space pirates" and samus is a "bounty hunter" is so the federation can convince the people on earth that they're not at war. :PYeah, I think in Metroid they're an actual race. It's pretty funny like that.
Post by: Aklyon on April 10, 2017, 01:03:29 pm
armageddon bombardment cant kill for shit ???Solution is, of course, mods. (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=887011008)
Also yes, afaik the Pirates in metroid are an actual race.
Post by: Aklyon on April 10, 2017, 01:12:45 pm
Quick wiki search. (http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Metroid_Prime_%28creature%29)
Post by: Aklyon on April 10, 2017, 01:14:13 pm
Post by: thvaz on April 10, 2017, 08:20:11 pm
The combat and ship designing bits are awful, the worst of all the 4x space games I've played, and I played a lot of them.
Post by: Sirus on April 10, 2017, 08:36:24 pm
Post by: Greiger on April 10, 2017, 08:36:55 pm
Got dragged into a war by a hive mind attacking a defensive pact buddy. My pact buddy is completely incapable of defending himself, and is sending all his ships off to fight the hive mind's buddy on the literal other side of the galaxy anyway. So I move in, and as highest tech civ in the galaxy I'm stomping a bunch of bugs into goo.
Mid stomping I have a couple ships flying around nuking their wormholes. And a single corvette shows up to fight one of my destroyers. Somehow the corvette has double my destroyer's battle rating. I expect to lose it. Instead I find that my destroyer is regenning it's shields faster than the corvette can damage them. Corvette gets filled full of plasma and disruptor, and another single lone corvette shows up to try it's luck. It also dies. This happens 5 times before my main fleet starts knocking on the door to the hive mind capital.
Moral of this story, when programming combat AI, make sure to put in a single check that compares your dps to the opponent's regen rate, and wait to build up yer fleet a little first if you can't outdamage their regen.
Post by: Neonivek on April 10, 2017, 09:23:21 pm
I mean we all know about how buildings have insane battle rating purely by armor and shields.
Yet I've upgraded my fleet and had its battle rating decrease! (I think it is because I got tech that let me be more efficient...)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 10, 2017, 11:42:11 pm
Sure, they give you the equivalent of 4 gaia worlds in one system and look cool, but:
- They still take up a core slot.
- They take forever to unlock - you have to get a super-endgame tech then two ascension perks after that to unlock the ringworld.
- They take even longer to build - Each stage takes an extremely long amount of time, and the first two stages are useless to you, then you have to finish each section individually, since you can only work on one section at a time and one section takes as long as a whole stage.
- Then after you finally have even one section done, you still have to build buildings and wait forever for your pops to grow.
- Habitats are also way better - they're way easier and way quicker, to build, can be built sooner in the game, and their buildings are really good - their power plant gives a base of 10 power, their labs give 3 of each science type, and their mines give 3 minerals.
- If you really want actual planets, you can always do more terraforming or colonize existing planets.
- Minor note, but buildable ringworlds also take away from the glamour of Fallen Empires and their own ringworlds. Not a huge deal though.
I see only two uses for ringworlds:
1.) As a status symbol. Admittedly, this reason is enough for me to build them super-lategame, but in my current game I got bored after starting the agonizingly long process to finish the second section, out of four sections total. But I imagine having a ringworld at the center of your empire would be pretty cool.
2.) If you're extremely starved for more fleet capacity and have colonized literally every planet possible, then ringworlds could help a bit since each section can have its own starport.
Also, has anyone had a broken Scourge invasion or am I just stupid? I had an invasion but I just got two waves and all they did was split up into 60k stacks (vs my 80k fleet equipped specifically to fight scourge ships) and perpertually bombard my vassal's planets. Their constructors and colony ships just stood there doing nothing while I destroyed each 60k stack one by one. It was disappointingly easy to beat them.
Post by: umiman on April 11, 2017, 12:02:42 am
1. The mod versions of megastructures are better. I'm not joking, they're straight up better in every single way. The game ones are practically worthless with the exception of habitats. Considering Paradox released a space 4x without some kind of planet destroyer and with completely fucked up space structures (even base space fortresses are almost garbage), I'm starting to think they have no clue what a space 4x is supposed to be like.
Post by: Glloyd on April 11, 2017, 12:22:49 am
1. The mod versions of megastructures are better. I'm not joking, they're straight up better in every single way. The game ones are practically worthless with the exception of habitats. Considering Paradox released a space 4x without some kind of planet destroyer and with completely fucked up space structures (even base space fortresses are almost garbage), I'm starting to think they have no clue what a space 4x is supposed to be like.
Do you have any recommendations for mods then?
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 11, 2017, 12:28:16 am
I enjoy 'jacking the Beacon of Perpetuity and rebuilding it...
Post by: Neonivek on April 11, 2017, 12:28:56 am
They understand that a good space 4x game needs to have some awesome things... but then they make it ridiculously difficult and time extensive to actually pull off.
It is why in a good world this game would be average... (Even with the DLC... it would be average)
Post by: Majestic7 on April 11, 2017, 01:48:36 am
Knowing this makes Stellaris simply better than the other 4X in the ballpark, because they were pretty much abandoned after launch. Sure, Distant Stars is better in several ways, but it is stuck in being what it is. Sword of the Stars II had the potential to be something awesome, but was screwed. The new Master of Orion is just a lukewarm reheating of an old soup. Compared to the alternatives and knowing how Paradox handles the other games, Stellaris is just in its own class.
Post by: Neonivek on April 11, 2017, 02:12:16 am
Personally, I value Paradox games on a different scale than other games. This is not due specific liking to their games, but rather on the history of watching them evolve. If Stellaris gets supported like CK2 and EU4, it is going to be an awesome game in a couple of years. Likewise, it is going to mold to support awesome mods that will give you practically new games using the base game as an engine to run them.
Stellaris has already kind of disproven this theory. Crusader Kings 2 mostly works (Ignoring how money grubby, nickel and diming it is) because DLC often doesn't have to interact with eachother in any meaningful way.
Stellaris has two expansions, it only had to deal with how two expansions interact... and they do not.
The expansions NEED to interconnect.
Not to mention in a WEIRD oddity... each expansion begets an expansion for each expansion as they never feel sort of fully cooked.
Post by: umiman on April 11, 2017, 02:24:51 am
LEX is nice. It adds a bunch of awesome big bads floating around the galaxy with comprehensive and detailed quest lines around them.1. The mod versions of megastructures are better. I'm not joking, they're straight up better in every single way. The game ones are practically worthless with the exception of habitats. Considering Paradox released a space 4x without some kind of planet destroyer and with completely fucked up space structures (even base space fortresses are almost garbage), I'm starting to think they have no clue what a space 4x is supposed to be like.
Do you have any recommendations for mods then?
There's beautiful space battle's doomsday weapons but I haven't used that.
NullForceOmega mentioned ringworld restoration which is great and thematically sound.
There's way too many to list, even stuff like buffing space stations so they aren't sitting ducks. Just search workshop or http://stellaris.smods.ru/. Or mod them in yourself, it's fairly easy. Just fiddling with .txt files mostly unless you want to add in new models.
---
If there's one mod I think everyone should get no matter what, I think it's auto auto explore. Why the fuck did Paradox put auto explore behind a tech you had to research is seriously beyond me.
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on April 11, 2017, 04:40:50 am
Distant Stars is better in several waysWhat game are you talking about ?
I thought I remembered a game called that, but can't find it anywhere... The closests would be Distant Worlds, or the SoaSE.
Post by: Majestic7 on April 11, 2017, 04:46:12 am
Honorary mention to indie game Stellar Monarch for that "I'm an emperor, don't bother me with trivialities" -felling.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 11, 2017, 05:57:03 am
Blorg body pillows and tentacles.
🐙
Post by: Donuts on April 11, 2017, 06:00:45 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Retropunch on April 11, 2017, 07:26:08 am
Not to mention in a WEIRD oddity... each expansion begets an expansion for each expansion as they never feel sort of fully cooked.
I couldn't quite understand what was annoying me so much, but I think that's it.
For stuff like CK2 and EUIV, the DLC seems fully fleshed out and a sort of complete product by itself. The Stellaris DLC's just feel a bit...not rushed, just that they seem to be just an incremental improvement in a few directions rather than a complete addition of a particular aspect. Part of this is that they should have been included in the base game, and part of it is that they just don't really seem to nail what they were trying to do.
Post by: Draignean on April 11, 2017, 10:39:05 am
I really like the idea, with war goals and clear lines of diplomacy still in play (though I'd also enjoy it if there was a no-holds-barred-eat-what-you-kill option for fanatic militarists or empires that REALLY hate one another), but goddamn combat and fleet movement is frustrating in this game- not to mention the constant deluge of 'situation log updated' that makes me want to murder someone.
I suppose I'm spoiled on SOTS, which (being turn based) had a very clean and comprehensible understanding of who was going to fight who. I really don't like the fact that I can send my fleet to defend on of my systems from the strategic map, and end up with that system captured without a fight due to the defense fleet sitting at the system edge while an attacking force 1/3 their size swats my heavy defensive stations out of the air and invades the planet.
Bah. It really took away from how much I was enjoying the game. I don't want to have to swap between the tactical and strategic maps (disorienting as hell) to make a very simple defensive action. I also do not want there to be a single click option that can make me jump to the attacking empire's homeworld. I don't want that. I have no use for that. I don't know when I'd ever have a use for that.
Got so damn frustrated with the war I only asked for one planet. Going to have to deal with the Unbidden and then come back the whaling on these idiots.
Post by: Taricus on April 11, 2017, 10:45:05 am
Post by: Greenbane on April 11, 2017, 10:52:29 am
I start exploring, colonize 2-3 planets, build some frontier outposts (not many due to influence restrictions) to enable grabbing resources from a few more systems, surveying an outer ring of systems all along, researching anomalies and finding a couple of alien civs. My energy and mineral production grows and I can more easily develop my colonies, build mining/research stations and support a larger fleet. Around this time I have enough tech to upgrade my corvettes for the first time, and build my first destroyers.
And then I hit some kind of lull. My colonies are soon developed as much as their population growth allows, so building new stuff becomes a sporadic task. And this is when I start losing traction, even though I don't think I've even reached the mid-game: what's there to do other than continue teching up, survey ever outwards and maybe pick a fight with a neighbour, just because?
I could theoretically colonize more planets, but at least on the default map settings, yellow+ worlds aren't common at all. So there aren't any suitable candidates anywhere near my space. Mars and another random planet can technically be terraformed, but for a truckload of energy and a second technology from who knows how far up (down?) the tech tree.
Thoughts appreciated.
Post by: Retropunch on April 11, 2017, 10:54:19 am
Alright, so I have this game now. Had pretty good fun with it, up until my first war.
I really like the idea, with war goals and clear lines of diplomacy still in play (though I'd also enjoy it if there was a no-holds-barred-eat-what-you-kill option for fanatic militarists or empires that REALLY hate one another), but goddamn combat and fleet movement is frustrating in this game- not to mention the constant deluge of 'situation log updated' that makes me want to murder someone.
I suppose I'm spoiled on SOTS, which (being turn based) had a very clean and comprehensible understanding of who was going to fight who. I really don't like the fact that I can send my fleet to defend on of my systems from the strategic map, and end up with that system captured without a fight due to the defense fleet sitting at the system edge while an attacking force 1/3 their size swats my heavy defensive stations out of the air and invades the planet.
Bah. It really took away from how much I was enjoying the game. I don't want to have to swap between the tactical and strategic maps (disorienting as hell) to make a very simple defensive action. I also do not want there to be a single click option that can make me jump to the attacking empire's homeworld. I don't want that. I have no use for that. I don't know when I'd ever have a use for that.
Got so damn frustrated with the war I only asked for one planet. Going to have to deal with the Unbidden and then come back the whaling on these idiots.
As Taricus said, putting your fleets in aggressive stance is the way to go, and then just put them where you need them and forget about them.
I have to say though, I only play Stellaris as hyperlanes only - it gets so tedious to try to work out what can jump from where. With hyperlanes I just have however many battlegroups are needed to defend each jump point into my empire stationed around my fortresses with jump nets enabled. It's got rid of a lot of the combat tedium for me, and stops me having to jump all over the place.
Jumping to the attacking homeworld can be useful if you've got 5 fleets that you all want to just immediately try and alpha strike them.
Post by: Draignean on April 11, 2017, 11:14:32 am
Hyperlanes only reminds my of some of the more fun humans only games from SOTS. Battle of Serenity Valley and all that- one world, utterly inconsequential except for the fact that it has node lines to number of key worlds.
I'll probably try and finish my game of slaving spiritualist fungi (who attack using armies of psionically enhanced xenomorphs) and start again with a few additions. It's fun, though I typically end up building upwards when I hit my planet limit. Habitats are absolutely amazing.
Post by: Baffler on April 11, 2017, 11:24:23 am
Alright, so I have this game now. Had pretty good fun with it, up until my first war.
I really like the idea, with war goals and clear lines of diplomacy still in play (though I'd also enjoy it if there was a no-holds-barred-eat-what-you-kill option for fanatic militarists or empires that REALLY hate one another), but goddamn combat and fleet movement is frustrating in this game- not to mention the constant deluge of 'situation log updated' that makes me want to murder someone.
I suppose I'm spoiled on SOTS, which (being turn based) had a very clean and comprehensible understanding of who was going to fight who. I really don't like the fact that I can send my fleet to defend on of my systems from the strategic map, and end up with that system captured without a fight due to the defense fleet sitting at the system edge while an attacking force 1/3 their size swats my heavy defensive stations out of the air and invades the planet.
Bah. It really took away from how much I was enjoying the game. I don't want to have to swap between the tactical and strategic maps (disorienting as hell) to make a very simple defensive action. I also do not want there to be a single click option that can make me jump to the attacking empire's homeworld. I don't want that. I have no use for that. I don't know when I'd ever have a use for that.
Got so damn frustrated with the war I only asked for one planet. Going to have to deal with the Unbidden and then come back the whaling on these idiots.
As Taricus said, putting your fleets in aggressive stance is the way to go, and then just put them where you need them and forget about them.
I have to say though, I only play Stellaris as hyperlanes only - it gets so tedious to try to work out what can jump from where. With hyperlanes I just have however many battlegroups are needed to defend each jump point into my empire stationed around my fortresses with jump nets enabled. It's got rid of a lot of the combat tedium for me, and stops me having to jump all over the place.
Jumping to the attacking homeworld can be useful if you've got 5 fleets that you all want to just immediately try and alpha strike them.
It can also be useful to have the bulk of your ships in the traditional doomstack, but also keep a couple of wolfpack type groups for commerce raiding. Wars in stellaris tend to be mostly attrition-based grindfests (except for a brief window in the early game where you can easily destroy spaceports but your economy is too weak to replace large losses), so targeting mining/scientific stations, or better yet frontier outposts, is pretty well worth splitting one or two dozen fleet capacity off the main group. Especially if the enemy hasn't bothered with military stations, or you expect to be at war with them again in the future.
I use a trio of destroyers, designed to support each other on independent missions rather than take part in fleet actions. They have much higher DPS and more strategic mobility, but they have no armor and their shields are very weak - only just enough to keep them from taking chip damage from the stations' weapons. I've certainly had a lot more success in wars since I started using them.
Post by: Sirus on April 11, 2017, 12:08:56 pm
The torpedoes also allow them to smash targets of opportunity without battering through enemy shields, like the enemy fleet that just retreated from a losing battle with my own fleet. They're usually fast enough to play catch-up as well.
Post by: Retropunch on April 11, 2017, 12:13:30 pm
It can also be useful to have the bulk of your ships in the traditional doomstack, but also keep a couple of wolfpack type groups for commerce raiding. Wars in stellaris tend to be mostly attrition-based grindfests (except for a brief window in the early game where you can easily destroy spaceports but your economy is too weak to replace large losses), so targeting mining/scientific stations, or better yet frontier outposts, is pretty well worth splitting one or two dozen fleet capacity off the main group. Especially if the enemy hasn't bothered with military stations, or you expect to be at war with them again in the future.
I use a trio of destroyers, designed to support each other on independent missions rather than take part in fleet actions. They have much higher DPS and more strategic mobility, but they have no armor and their shields are very weak - only just enough to keep them from taking chip damage from the stations' weapons. I've certainly had a lot more success in wars since I started using them.
Yeah definitely - I tend to make sure my empire entrances are secure, have one main force and then a few others marauding through messing stuff up. The AI doesn't seem to manage to work out the biggest threat too well, so often they'll just go after my little 500 power force instead of my 20k one.
Post by: umiman on April 11, 2017, 12:18:28 pm
See, with hyperlanes only, once you research jump drives, everyone just flies everywhere and hyperlanes become a very annoying piece of modern art sprawled all over your map. Also none of the advanced civs use them.
The mod changes this so there's no jump drives but gives you alternatives to that instead while keeping every faction on hyperlanes.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 11, 2017, 12:31:21 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Greenbane on April 11, 2017, 12:50:37 pm
Post by: umiman on April 11, 2017, 01:18:46 pm
Any comments on my last post? Am I missing something?What do you want us to say?
The past 315 pages basically is just us whining about how there's not enough content in the game and it needs way more DLC.
Post by: Draignean on April 11, 2017, 01:46:04 pm
I've recently started a 1.5 Utopia playthrough with a fairly standard democratic Human civ, and I feel I'm losing traction again, just like the last time I played.Well, I'm also a noob, but this is basically what I did when I got to that point:
I start exploring, colonize 2-3 planets, build some frontier outposts (not many due to influence restrictions) to enable grabbing resources from a few more systems, surveying an outer ring of systems all along, researching anomalies and finding a couple of alien civs. My energy and mineral production grows and I can more easily develop my colonies, build mining/research stations and support a larger fleet. Around this time I have enough tech to upgrade my corvettes for the first time, and build my first destroyers.
And then I hit some kind of lull. My colonies are soon developed as much as their population growth allows, so building new stuff becomes a sporadic task. And this is when I start losing traction, even though I don't think I've even reached the mid-game: what's there to do other than continue teching up, survey ever outwards and maybe pick a fight with a neighbour, just because?
I could theoretically colonize more planets, but at least on the default map settings, yellow+ worlds aren't common at all. So there aren't any suitable candidates anywhere near my space. Mars and another random planet can technically be terraformed, but for a truckload of energy and a second technology from who knows how far up (down?) the tech tree.
Thoughts appreciated.
1. Habitats. So many habitats. Basically I churned out nothing but habitats for a while after hitting core world capacity. Essentially they're perfect little worlds with great structures.
2. Get vassals, protectorates, uplift species. I had an AI (A Spiritualist AI that made it illegal to research AI) somehow develop right next to me. It made a wonderful little protectorate to add to my power.
3. A couple of strategic
Post by: Greenbane on April 11, 2017, 04:02:47 pm
Well, I'm also a noob, but this is basically what I did when I got to that point:
1. Habitats. So many habitats. Basically I churned out nothing but habitats for a while after hitting core world capacity. Essentially they're perfect little worlds with great structures.
2. Get vassals, protectorates, uplift species. I had an AI (A Spiritualist AI that made it illegal to research AI) somehow develop right next to me. It made a wonderful little protectorate to add to my power.
3. A couple of strategicwarspeacekeeping actions can do wonders to win over a couple ofslave worldsliberated planets to your empire.
That's good stuff. Haven't researched habitats yet, and the tech tree doesn't give you any visibility beyond the three generated choices per category (due to randomness). Haven't seen any primitives so far. There's a species of evangelist zealots nearby, who've hated me off the bat. I suppose I could kick off a war with them, but war seems all I can do right now.
I feel the game needs more stuff to do in peacetime. More fleshed out exploration stuff beyond anomaly research, more intricate empire management. Stuff like civilian traffic (yeah, there's a mod, but something more official). More life in general, but I guess all space 4X games suffer from this. Stellaris has the chance to go beyond the standard tech up -> conquer everything of 4X.
Post by: Sirus on April 11, 2017, 04:46:19 pm
Ideally, pirate stations would spawn inside/near civs that have a lot of unrest, and strike at nearby civs that lack a strong navy. The fleets that the stations send out should hit mining stations and even blockade fringe worlds without space ports. If civilian traffic ever gets added to the base game they should also be viable targets.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 11, 2017, 04:48:56 pm
Post by: Draignean on April 11, 2017, 04:53:51 pm
Ideally, pirate stations would spawn inside/near civs that have a lot of unrest, and strike at nearby civs that lack a strong navy. The fleets that the stations send out should hit mining stations and even blockade fringe worlds without space ports. If civilian traffic ever gets added to the base game they should also be viable targets.
It'd be interesting if, instead of just spawning ships, sufficient unrest and border friction would allow your enemies to bankroll a black-flag station. The station pops up in their border territory and commerce raids the empire it came from, increasing unrest, increasing chances of revolt, and paying a small amount of the money it raids back to the empire sponsoring it.
Which is more privateering than straight up piracy, but it would give empires that don't want to go to war but REALLY hate one another something to do other than hiding out in treetops and shouting out rude names.
Post by: umiman on April 11, 2017, 05:27:14 pm
that half 4x half rts game (forget the name) had this. Was amazing for multiplayer.Ideally, pirate stations would spawn inside/near civs that have a lot of unrest, and strike at nearby civs that lack a strong navy. The fleets that the stations send out should hit mining stations and even blockade fringe worlds without space ports. If civilian traffic ever gets added to the base game they should also be viable targets.
It'd be interesting if, instead of just spawning ships, sufficient unrest and border friction would allow your enemies to bankroll a black-flag station. The station pops up in their border territory and commerce raids the empire it came from, increasing unrest, increasing chances of revolt, and paying a small amount of the money it raids back to the empire sponsoring it.
Which is more privateering than straight up piracy, but it would give empires that don't want to go to war but REALLY hate one another something to do other than hiding out in treetops and shouting out rude names.
Distant worlds has it too. Also great there.
Post by: Uristides on April 11, 2017, 05:43:20 pm
They were demanding me to tear down half of my border outposts, cede a whole bunch of planets and a whole lot more, and to make things worse for some reason we(me + federation) were considered the aggressors even though we were the ones who were declared upon.
They had like 2 60k fleets while my federation had a total of ~30k that couldn't coordinate for shit because paradox AI, I really thought it was game over for me right there. Until, after occupying some 4 of our planets, they just sat there doing absolutely nothing for months, maybe years. The resource drain hit me pretty hard and I had to tear a good chunk of my fleet and stations, but I managed to survive until they used their 30% warscore to make a fairly mild demand to cede one planet(a really good one though, RIP) and give up a couple of border outposts.
So, wtf was that CB that allows the declarer to be the defender and does it happen often that the AI simply stops pushing when they could easily lay waste to the whole enemy territory?
Post by: Teneb on April 11, 2017, 06:19:53 pm
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 11, 2017, 07:04:49 pm
I know this is done by most every space 4X out there but I badly wish that pirates were more of a thing. Why would they only show up in a single tiny group in the early game? Piracy has existed for about as long as ships have, there's no reason whatsoever that they'd simply stop existing in space.
Ideally, pirate stations would spawn inside/near civs that have a lot of unrest, and strike at nearby civs that lack a strong navy. The fleets that the stations send out should hit mining stations and even blockade fringe worlds without space ports. If civilian traffic ever gets added to the base game they should also be viable targets.
And why, exactly, would there be pirates hanging around when the vast majority of civilizations have just barely reached interstellar capability? Space pirates should function much like they do now in Stellaris, with the addition of periodic outbreaks during periods of high unrest, or when your navy isn't large enough to defend your space. They also need to stop blowing up stations and instead start siphoning minerals and energy (maybe still attack research stations, hold them for ransom or something.) Every 4x I've ever seen except for SoaSE gets space piracy flat out wrong, you have to HAVE large scale movement of resources for piracy to be viable, that doesn't exist in the beginning of the space colonization age.
Post by: umiman on April 11, 2017, 07:07:27 pm
In Distant Worlds, it's explained that the pirates actually existed way before any of the fledgling civs do. It's why your first contact is not usually with another peaceful civ but a pirate who extorts you.I know this is done by most every space 4X out there but I badly wish that pirates were more of a thing. Why would they only show up in a single tiny group in the early game? Piracy has existed for about as long as ships have, there's no reason whatsoever that they'd simply stop existing in space.
Ideally, pirate stations would spawn inside/near civs that have a lot of unrest, and strike at nearby civs that lack a strong navy. The fleets that the stations send out should hit mining stations and even blockade fringe worlds without space ports. If civilian traffic ever gets added to the base game they should also be viable targets.
And why, exactly, would there be pirates hanging around when the vast majority of civilizations have just barely reached interstellar capability? Space pirates should function much like they do now in Stellaris, with the addition of periodic outbreaks during periods of high unrest, or when your navy isn't large enough to defend your space. They also need to stop blowing up stations and instead start siphoning minerals and energy (maybe still attack research stations, hold them for ransom or something.) Every 4x I've ever seen except for SoaSE gets space piracy flat out wrong, you have to HAVE large scale movement of resources for piracy to be viable, that doesn't exist in the beginning of the space colonization age.
Wait, I think I got that wrong. I think all the races were spaceborne before, but then a calamity happened and they all regressed while the pirates stuck around.
Something like that.
There are big pirate fleets in Stellaris though. They do nothing but sit in a single system like any other space threat. Around 3k fleet strength. So not pirates but more like a terrain hazard.
Post by: Sirus on April 11, 2017, 07:11:48 pm
In what part of my post did I say anything about pirates just "hanging around"? I said they should spawn in response to unrest and targets of opportunity, and that it made no sense for piracy to simply stop after that initial early-game event group is dealt with.I know this is done by most every space 4X out there but I badly wish that pirates were more of a thing. Why would they only show up in a single tiny group in the early game? Piracy has existed for about as long as ships have, there's no reason whatsoever that they'd simply stop existing in space.
Ideally, pirate stations would spawn inside/near civs that have a lot of unrest, and strike at nearby civs that lack a strong navy. The fleets that the stations send out should hit mining stations and even blockade fringe worlds without space ports. If civilian traffic ever gets added to the base game they should also be viable targets.
And why, exactly, would there be pirates hanging around when the vast majority of civilizations have just barely reached interstellar capability? Space pirates should function much like they do now in Stellaris, with the addition of periodic outbreaks during periods of high unrest, or when your navy isn't large enough to defend your space. They also need to stop blowing up stations and instead start siphoning minerals and energy (maybe still attack research stations, hold them for ransom or something.) Every 4x I've ever seen except for SoaSE gets space piracy flat out wrong, you have to HAVE large scale movement of resources for piracy to be viable, that doesn't exist in the beginning of the space colonization age.
Besides, if you use advanced start AIs then pirates should indeed be "hanging around"; they're pirates from those civilizations that are already a galactic presence.
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 11, 2017, 07:12:18 pm
Sirus: Then they aren't pirates, they're privateers operating under a national system. Pirates as independent operators require an existing framework of trade to function, so do privateers, they can't just be 'hanging around' ever. It is not possible. It violates the fundamental elements of being a 'pirate'. That is my entire problem with the concept, it's always just 'suddenly pirates' without considering how piracy functions.
Post by: Greenbane on April 11, 2017, 07:24:57 pm
In case of foreign involvement, one such power could fund the pirates to various degrees, allowing them to grow and possibly overwhelm a lesser empire. They could eventually start taking over planets, perhaps, and form a proper faction of their own. Maybe that's too much, but the process would have its pros and cons, since pirates could be a tool to undermine an enemy, but at the same nothing they took would be yours. Eventually, you'd have to deal with them.
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 11, 2017, 07:32:23 pm
Pirates and pirate bases should be able to spawn in the event of system unrest, a corruption-like mechanic and/or covert foreign involvement. They'd make more sense with civilian traffic in the picture, and as it was said, if they actually stole resources instead of destroying sources of wealth. Perhaps they could board and capture stations, requiring you to divert troop transports to retake them instead of just dealing with marauding ships.
In case of foreign involvement, one such power could fund the pirates to various degrees, allowing them to grow and possibly overwhelm a lesser empire. They could eventually start taking over planets, perhaps, and form a proper faction of their own. Maybe that's too much, but the process would have its pros and cons, since pirates could be a tool to undermine an enemy, but at the same nothing they took would be yours. Eventually, you'd have to deal with them.
Yes, something like this is the best approach, I like this train of thought.
Distant Worlds probably tried the hardest to do this, but fell victim to the 'suddenly pirates' thing, where immediately, for no reason that makes even the slightest bit of sense, a bunch of aliens in control of a massively OP station with mystical 'we know where everything and everyone is' ability, just show up to ruin your shit (or force you to pay an increasingly repressive tithe that cripples your economy entirely).
It feels very strange that SoaSE is the only game(s) that seem to have gotten the idea mostly right, where the pirates are there for a reason (all of these systems you're waging war over used to be human colony worlds), and their interactions with you are motivated by greed. That said it wasn't a very 'in-depth' mechanic, but SoaSE isn't really the most in-depth 4x either (more like an RTS in almost every way).
Post by: Sirus on April 11, 2017, 07:41:22 pm
Tbh, that is a very stupid explanation tho'. It's much more reasonable to assume that if there were pre-existing 'pirate' groups, they'd basically just be national entities that operate like a criminal syndicate, and extort new, weak races as they enter the inter-stellar community. Other than their propensity to engage in said extortion they'd just be normal nations with exploitative ethics. I really find the 'suddenly powerful space pirates' thing extremely stupid.What, you think the various planets in a civ have absolutely no trade with each other? Just because the game does not portray such a thing does not mean that there aren't transports filled with minerals, strategic resources, and (especially now with Banks) food throughout the civ. That stuff is probably quite valuable and people are going to try and get a hold of it - illegally if they must.
Sirus: Then they aren't pirates, they're privateers operating under a national system. Pirates as independent operators require an existing framework of trade to function, so do privateers, they can't just be 'hanging around' ever. It is not possible. It violates the fundamental elements of being a 'pirate'. That is my entire problem with the concept, it's always just 'suddenly pirates' without considering how piracy functions.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 11, 2017, 07:46:00 pm
Post by: Sirus on April 11, 2017, 07:46:49 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on April 11, 2017, 07:53:30 pm
It feels very strange that SoaSE is the only game(s) that seem to have gotten the idea mostly rightIf I recall, sword of the stars also does pirates in a pretty reasonable way, they start to exist once you've got trade ships moving though your empire, and they only attack said trade ships.
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 11, 2017, 07:57:57 pm
What, you think the various planets in a civ have absolutely no trade with each other? Just because the game does not portray such a thing does not mean that there aren't transports filled with minerals, strategic resources, and (especially now with Banks) food throughout the civ. That stuff is probably quite valuable and people are going to try and get a hold of it - illegally if they must.
The vast, vast, vast majority of the time Stellaris' pirate event fires when you have less than three colonies, and from my experience usually before you have one. So where, precisely, is this 'trade' when there are no places for traders to go?
This is why it is stupid, because it doesn't have any justification, it is purely gamey and arbitrary. It also gives the pirates technologies your empire probably doesn't have, how, exactly, if the techs aren't available for use, do these random pirates get them?
Criptfiend: Haven't played Sword of the Stars, I've heard a bunch of very conflicting things about it, so I've never bought it. But that does sound like reasonable behavior for pirates.
Post by: Greenbane on April 11, 2017, 08:05:32 pm
What, you think the various planets in a civ have absolutely no trade with each other? Just because the game does not portray such a thing does not mean that there aren't transports filled with minerals, strategic resources, and (especially now with Banks) food throughout the civ. That stuff is probably quite valuable and people are going to try and get a hold of it - illegally if they must.
Of course civilian traffic exists in the background, but it's just not very interesting to have visible pirate fleets appear just to apply a system-wide malus to resource collection or whatever.
Visible civilians are necessary to provide a much needed layer of life to the galaxy, and make that kind of interaction more immersive. Planets could gradually produce freighters (its merchant fleet cap, say, regulated by the colony's size and buildings) which would travel between your colonies and to your trade partners, and periodically passenger transports to make migration physical instead of reliant of magical teleporting (at least until said technology becomes feasible).
And pirates would come around and attack/capture those ships, running away with resources and slaves unless fended off by local militaries. Hmm, it'd be cool if you could trade with these pirate factions, whether to desperately buy resources at their extortive prices or procure
By the way, tangential note: Sins of a Solar Empire Trinity (and GalCiv2) are tier 1 rewards in the new Humble Bundle (https://www.humblebundle.com/intergalactic-bundle), so you can get it for a dollar.
Post by: Sirus on April 11, 2017, 08:09:21 pm
Cargo runs from your mining stations to your colonies/homeworld. Supply runs in the opposite direction.What, you think the various planets in a civ have absolutely no trade with each other? Just because the game does not portray such a thing does not mean that there aren't transports filled with minerals, strategic resources, and (especially now with Banks) food throughout the civ. That stuff is probably quite valuable and people are going to try and get a hold of it - illegally if they must.
The vast, vast, vast majority of the time Stellaris' pirate event fires when you have less than three colonies, and from my experience usually before you have one. So where, precisely, is this 'trade' when there are no places for traders to go?
This is why it is stupid, because it doesn't have any justification, it is purely gamey and arbitrary.
Criptfiend: Haven't played Sword of the Stars, I've heard a bunch of very conflicting things about it, so I've never bought it. But that does sound like reasonable behavior for pirates.
If you wish to complain about how the behavior of the event pirates (blowing up stations rather than blockade/raid them) makes no sense, well I won't argue with you there. The fact remains that unless you turtle to a ridiculous degree and basically forfeit all growth, there is always something going on that could be construed as "trade".
Pirates in this current iteration make very little sense from any standpoint. Piracy in general is something that makes a great deal of sense, and should be expanded upon - preferably along with expanding the impact and visibility of civilian trade.
Post by: Draignean on April 11, 2017, 08:12:42 pm
It feels very strange that SoaSE is the only game(s) that seem to have gotten the idea mostly rightIf I recall, sword of the stars also does pirates in a pretty reasonable way, they start to exist once you've got trade ships moving though your empire, and they only attack said trade ships.
Well, in SOTS, all pirates are actually privateers. Commerce raiding is a tech that you unlock in order to fuck over everyone else's trade lines. With the exception of the random encounter slaver groups, it's all other empires screwing with one another. (AFAIK)
Criptfiend: Haven't played Sword of the Stars, I've heard a bunch of very conflicting things about it, so I've never bought it. But that does sound like reasonable behavior for pirates.
SOTS I, with all expansion packs, is hands down the best 4x I've ever played in terms of fleet battles and combat tactics. The diplomacy is a bit on the lacking side, but massive interstellar war is a blast.
The pirate growth I was suggesting earlier would be a lot of fun to tie into the faction system as well. Give a nice penalty to having a massively disenfranchised faction that you don't/can't completely eliminate or suppress. For example, my fungal slaver empire is 55-65 with every faction except the Democracy party, who hover somewhere around 7-12. The 5 pops that adhere to that path really can't do shit, so I pretty much ignore them. Yet, if any one of my democratic border rivals were to fund those subversive elements under the table.... I'd be all for a system where the massively disenfranchised (even if they can't collectively create a lot of unrest) could be turned pirate by your rivals.
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 11, 2017, 08:18:59 pm
As for the argument about the resource stations, those are government facilities (currently), and from my standpoint that means patrolled routes. Since the actual cargo vessels are abstracted away, then I have to assume that internal peacekeeping forces are also abstracted, as the game makes it very clear that I am managing my military fleets, not police forces.
Draignean: Thanks for the info on SotS, I may look into picking it up next time I have some disposable cash.
Post by: Criptfeind on April 11, 2017, 08:45:03 pm
Well, in SOTS, all pirates are actually privateers. Commerce raiding is a tech that you unlock in order to fuck over everyone else's trade lines. With the exception of the random encounter slaver groups, it's all other empires screwing with one another. (AFAIK)
Ah. I had not realized this. My favorite race (and the only ones I've played a game of "recently" was the hivers, and looking it up they don't get access to Commerce raiding, so I musta totally forgot.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 11, 2017, 09:00:22 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 11, 2017, 09:08:50 pm
Sots 1's pirates felt a whole better to me than soase's, which seemed to just be there to attack players periodically for no apparent reason.Well on soase I remember put up bounties on other players and the pirates would attack the one with the highest bounty so the had a reason.
Post by: Descan on April 11, 2017, 09:49:20 pm
Aye, thanks for the advice. I admit I hadn't messed about as much with fleet stance as I should, and I'm definitely looking into some mods to buff up defensive stations somehow. Heaviest stations I have, deployed in an optimal pattern, don't really do a damn thing except discourage light raiders and transports.Unless they've changed, default Fortresses are basically only good for Hyperlane-only maps, and on chokepoints with the Warp interdictor or whatever it's called - the thing that makes enemy fleets drop out right on top of the fortress. Otherwise they're too expensive for what you'll get out of them, since enemy fleets could just warp past that system or wormhole.
With hyperlanes and those fortresses, you can build said station in the chokepoints of your empire (especially if you're playing on Arm galaxies, since you can sometimes have only one system between star clusters) and when you go to war with an empire in that direction, you can station your fleet next to that fortress. So when the enemy fleet comes knocking, they're dumped right next to your entire armada and (assuming you're strong enough) you can make short work of them. (i.e. autocannons and other short range weapons that are really strong but can be a problem if you're starting an engagement across half the star system; if the enemy is dumped right next to you, range is no issue)
I've not done it so I'm not sure, but I think you may be able to get away with putting supplementary fortresses near enough that have the add-ons that lower enemy attack and defences, so that works too? But unless you have a way to guarantee the enemy is going to pass through a system, fortresses are too expensive for how little use you'd get out of them. You'd be better off building more ships - They're more expensive in terms of mineral-per-fleet-power, but you can actually do stuff with them. Move them around. Mobility is very useful.
Post by: Paul on April 11, 2017, 11:00:15 pm
Made sure my mods were disabled (they were). verified integrity of game files, deleted my stellaris user folder in the documents. No go. Deleted and reinstalled the game. Still same issue. Downgrading to older version worked no problem.
I finally figured it out. For some reason Stellaris won't load at all if you don't have audio. I don't have speakers on this system and I didn't bother to plug in my headset just to play Stellaris, so I had no audio. Instant crash to desktop, no error message. Plug in headphones, try again, works perfectly.
So if anyone else has this issue, check your audio. If you don't have a default audio device plugged in, the game does not work.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 11, 2017, 11:08:57 pm
Post by: Donuts on April 11, 2017, 11:50:46 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 12, 2017, 12:44:25 am
That is a pretty niche bug, though.
That's a classic kind of Paradox bug. I think all their games have weird conditions under which loading something will go horribly wrong.
Post by: Majestic7 on April 12, 2017, 12:50:27 am
I don't think the Zool-space-to-other-space-and-back pirate traffic is simulated in the game, just the percentage chances of the raid events firing and the raiders spawning. Regardless, it kind of makes sense. I think it would likewise make sense for certain kind of empires to project illegal power in same kind of manner. Stuff like fanatical purifier "renegades" raiding neighbors even while in peace etc.
Distant Worlds, of course, has fleshed out pirate factions which was nice, although the Phantom Pirates thing was just ridiculous. It was more of an end-game menace than a pirate faction though, they just use the same basic mechanics.
Post by: Donuts on April 12, 2017, 04:41:38 am
Every Paradox bug seems to be a really wonky bug, yeah.That is a pretty niche bug, though.
That's a classic kind of Paradox bug. I think all their games have weird conditions under which loading something will go horribly wrong.
stupidfallenempiresstealingmyvassalswiththeirhightechwordsargh
Post by: Aklyon on April 12, 2017, 08:45:52 am
Its still very niche, tho. Why would you play a game with no sound at all?That is a pretty niche bug, though.
That's a classic kind of Paradox bug. I think all their games have weird conditions under which loading something will go horribly wrong.
Also, as good of a point that hyperlanes-only thing is, hyperlanes are boring imo.
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on April 12, 2017, 08:59:16 am
Why would you play a game with no sound at all?Why would you need Sound in Stellaris ?
thee is a notification for everything that has a voice, and the other sounds (during battles) don't matter, because you quickly get battles with more than 100 ships.
Post by: Aklyon on April 12, 2017, 09:21:33 am
Because it might as well be a board game otherwise with how fast paradox games go, action-wise.Why would you play a game with no sound at all?Why would you need Sound in Stellaris?
Also because speakers/headphones are not special equipment and lacking them on a system that will play games is the odd one out, not the typical.
Post by: TempAcc on April 12, 2017, 09:24:07 am
Anyway, here's a question: once you integrate a vassal into your empire, do you get all the tech they had researched before?
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 12, 2017, 09:58:36 am
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on April 12, 2017, 10:09:01 am
Anyway, here's a question: once you integrate a vassal into your empire, do you get all the tech they had researched before?You don't get any immediate bonus, but I think you may get a little bonus if a vassal has researched the tech... or at least, I remember it like that in v1.0
Why would you need Sound in Stellaris?Because it might as well be a board game otherwise with how fast paradox games go, action-wise.I really don't see what Sound has to do with that.
And also, it is a 4x. Of course, it's just a board game with more automatic systems :)
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on April 12, 2017, 10:10:44 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 12, 2017, 10:32:01 am
Post by: umiman on April 12, 2017, 10:49:18 am
I think it's the other way around. And for protectorates.Anyway, here's a question: once you integrate a vassal into your empire, do you get all the tech they had researched before?You don't get any immediate bonus, but I think you may get a little bonus if a vassal has researched the tech... or at least, I remember it like that in v1.0
Post by: Donuts on April 12, 2017, 11:25:36 am
Post by: thvaz on April 12, 2017, 12:15:22 pm
*It should get rid totally of the artificial cap of ships. The cap should be only the maintenance costs of the ships. Instead, we should have a fleet size cap, that could be increased by admirals skills and technology.
*This fleet size cap should a lot smaller than the current sizes of fleets. No more stacks of dooms.
*Ships, specially capital ships, should matter. They should rarely be destroyed in engagements and when they do it would be a great loss.
Post by: Aklyon on April 12, 2017, 12:49:31 pm
1. There is a force limit based on how big you are (in this case how many spaceports you have)
2. The ships cost maintenance anyway.
3. There is a problem with doomstacks
4. Sieges takes ages to finish and don't actually claim the territory for you until the end of the war.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 12, 2017, 12:59:39 pm
Post by: Greenbane on April 12, 2017, 01:12:36 pm
The caps make sense, if you look at it from how the rest of paradox's games have armies:
1. There is a force limit based on how big you are (in this case how many spaceports you have)
2. The ships cost maintenance anyway.
3. There is a problem with doomstacks
4. Sieges takes ages to finish and don't actually claim the territory for you until the end of the war.
The Hearts of Iron games have capped unit groups according to the commander's rank (Major General = 3 divisions, Lt. General = 6 divisions, etc.), so there is precedent, if that means anything to begin with.
That said, considering how combat works, and that massing forces is the way to go, there wouldn't be any difference between concentrating your 50 ships in a single fleet, or five 10-ship fleets, if you're going to focus them all in the same place when war breaks out. Unless, again taking a page from HoI or even EU4, either there's a cap on how many ships can fight at the same time, or the leading officer's rank (highest of all the characters in the battle) imposes a similar cap and all extras fight with increasing penalties.
Post by: Cruxador on April 12, 2017, 02:42:54 pm
The only strategy games I can think of with fun tactical combat are Dominions, where you set up tactics ahead of time and from there on don't have to bother unless you're specifically doing something important, and Lords of Magic, which is almost on par with dedicated tactical games (e.g. shadowrun, fire emblem) but also seasoned by good magic and kidnapping mechanics, and a healthy dose of nostalgia.
And if you don't have tactical control, then who cares, really? It's just a black box. As long as strong things are strong, it's fine.
More to the point, why would you have a computer without any kind of audio output device? Even if you rarely or never use your main box for audio purposes, so much shit comes with built in speakers, particularly TVs which are often the most cost-effective displays you can get.Its still very niche, tho. Why would you play a game with no sound at all?That is a pretty niche bug, though.
That's a classic kind of Paradox bug. I think all their games have weird conditions under which loading something will go horribly wrong.
Post by: Kanil on April 12, 2017, 08:33:17 pm
More to the point, why would you have a computer without any kind of audio output device? Even if you rarely or never use your main box for audio purposes, so much shit comes with built in speakers, particularly TVs which are often the most cost-effective displays you can get.
When I'm watching TV, my headphones are plugged into my TV, and not my computer. In that situation, my computer doesn't have an audio output device. Owning another pair of headphones or a set of speakers would be redundant.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 12, 2017, 08:39:32 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 12, 2017, 09:03:18 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on April 12, 2017, 09:11:08 pm
Post by: Cruxador on April 12, 2017, 09:56:37 pm
It depends on what you're up against, but the ratio I found most effective against most AI was 1:2:2:2. I suspect that if I had gone to the bother of building and testing more battleships, I may well have found the ideal to be 1:1:1:1. Note, however, that corvettes are pretty much just ablative armor for the real fleet, so it's a good idea to have more if you expect more than a single doomstack, or at least have replacements already under construction before a major battle happens.Am I silly or did you used to be able to assign a ship design any role? Why did that change?Used to be that you could choose any combat computer and there were a lot more designs for each ship type (Corvettes had three, I remember).
Changed that to make it a bit more of a tactical rock-paper-scissors thing, rather than just loading up your fleet with corvettes, corvettes, and more corvettes.
Incidentally, what's the idea fleet composition does anyone know? I tend to do a ratio of 1:2:4:8 for battleships, cruisers, destroyers, corvettes respectively.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 12, 2017, 10:34:50 pm
Spinal guns are just so cool. At some point I want to try the tachyon lance, but even the gigacannon is a magnificent weapon. Just seeing my battleships lob huge shells from across the system inspires me in a way lesser weapons cannot.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 12, 2017, 10:39:20 pm
My fleets have way too many battleships for one reason:
Spinal guns are just so cool. At some point I want to try the tachyon lance, but even the gigacannon is a magnificent weapon. Just seeing my battleships lob huge shells from across the system inspires me in a way lesser weapons cannot.
This is actually how I stayed afloat in my old Star Ruler game. My ships were literally just giant cannons. While I got outpaced by other empires, my ships which were secretly giant cannons just wrecked most attacks before they could get their alpha off. That combined with my insidious system-harvesting superships that auto-produced dozens of fighters per second held the cruel galaxy at bay. Or perhaps it was the noble galaxy and I was the horrifying threat. Ah, Star Ruler, good times.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 13, 2017, 12:29:31 am
* the self-destruct system
Post by: Majestic7 on April 13, 2017, 12:50:43 am
I haven't tried making multiple designs of the same ship class yet. Does the game still make all your ships the same when you update a fleet? So if I have, say, a battleship design with a giga cannon and another with the lightning energy weapon thing. Then I upgrade the giga cannon design and click update for the fleet, does it replace the lightning energy battleships with the new giga cannon too? Even if they are different designs?
I remember it used to do that in the past.
Regarding fleet sizes, I think some kind of supply limit would be good way to deter doomstacks. So yeah, you could bring lots of force to a pivotal battle, but it would be very difficult to run supplies to them for an extended period of time. I don't know how to do that without miring the game down in the same kind of way as HOI3 supply simulator, but...it would add a layer of strategy. Especially if you could build supply depot stations and stuff in strategic places. Then go blow them up to damage enemy supply.
Post by: Mini on April 13, 2017, 02:02:05 am
Space Jihadist 2: Exploding Suns.If there's a design with the same name as the design of the ship being upgraded it will get upgraded to that (or not upgraded if it's the same design), otherwise it will get upgraded to the most recently saved design. So if you're changing the names of your designs between iterations then you'll have problems.
I haven't tried making multiple designs of the same ship class yet. Does the game still make all your ships the same when you update a fleet? So if I have, say, a battleship design with a giga cannon and another with the lightning energy weapon thing. Then I upgrade the giga cannon design and click update for the fleet, does it replace the lightning energy battleships with the new giga cannon too? Even if they are different designs?
Post by: GiglameshDespair on April 13, 2017, 06:31:05 am
More to the point, why would you have a computer without any kind of audio output device? Even if you rarely or never use your main box for audio purposes, so much shit comes with built in speakers, particularly TVs which are often the most cost-effective displays you can get.Deaf people, perhaps. My desktop monitor doesn't have sound so usb speakers are necessary.
Post by: Retropunch on April 13, 2017, 07:49:18 am
More to the point, why would you have a computer without any kind of audio output device? Even if you rarely or never use your main box for audio purposes, so much shit comes with built in speakers, particularly TVs which are often the most cost-effective displays you can get.Deaf people, perhaps. My desktop monitor doesn't have sound so usb speakers are necessary.
Yeah there are a lot of deaf and hard of hearing people that find this kinda stuff useful.
Re: combat overhaul,
I've always thought it weird that 4x games (with the sort of exception of SoaSE) don't put more emphasis on having ships that actually matter rather than tons of just disposable rubbish. I don't feel anything at all about throwing in my 50 battleships in Stellaris, as they're basically just moving automated gun platforms.
If it was instead duked out between 3-4 battleships and a handful of other stuff - all of which I had tweaked, picked staff for etc. I could get much more attached to stuff and it'd allow battles to have some real meaning behind them. It's not like the battles in stellaris are impressive on a scale factor either - I could understand if they were trying to do a 1000v1000 style AI war battle spectacle, but it's just 'pump out as many ships as I can till the force number is bigger than their force number, sometimes taking into account my enemies main weapons'.
Post by: Majestic7 on April 13, 2017, 07:55:52 am
Post by: Greenbane on April 13, 2017, 09:59:31 am
In the end, I'd wager combat will be expanded upon in some fashion eventually, if Stellaris is intended to get as many DLC as CK2 and EU4.
Post by: Donuts on April 13, 2017, 10:01:57 am
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 13, 2017, 10:17:37 am
Cool idea: what if militarist pops got bonuses to happiness from having large-well maintained fleets? How about for having highly experienced officers? Maybe even for having storied vessels with long service lives?
Post by: Retropunch on April 13, 2017, 11:08:52 am
Art of War 2.0 yes please
Yeah, I can imagine there being a combat DLC not too far down the line - IIRC the next one/patch was supposed to focus on combat. The problem is that they've kinda gone down the 'dozens of anonymous ships which turn into an abstract number' route, and I can't imagine they'll change from that to something more indepth.
That being said, even just the ability to customise ships more would be very much welcomed - most of the time I just build exactly the same ships each game.
Post by: Cruxador on April 13, 2017, 02:48:42 pm
I'd love a system of officers for shipsSeems unlikely because that would require a substantial overhaul of the "leaders" character system. And I think if they do such an overhaul, it's going to be focused on making the limited numbers of leaders into more versatile interesting people, rather than extending the numbers of them and the levels of society that are modeled in this way.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on April 13, 2017, 04:26:10 pm
Post by: kilakan on April 13, 2017, 04:30:36 pm
Post by: Sirus on April 13, 2017, 04:43:27 pm
Post by: kilakan on April 13, 2017, 04:50:30 pm
As well a lot of my fights were before I could even kill a spaceport, so I was having to win via destroying their mining/research stations and their fleet every time it rebuilt.
Post by: Draignean on April 13, 2017, 07:12:05 pm
How does one even get a five-star admiral? Mine either die young or die of old age because there's nothing to fight for long stretches.
Oddly, all of my Admirals have gone from 2-star to five stars immediately after their first major (15k+) fleet battle.
Post by: Mephansteras on April 13, 2017, 07:17:04 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on April 13, 2017, 08:57:54 pm
Post by: umiman on April 13, 2017, 09:34:31 pm
How does one even get a five-star admiral? Mine either die young or die of old age because there's nothing to fight for long stretches.You get so much exp just from fighting. Your first war alone should give you a 5 star general.
But failing that, there's a lot of tech and tradition stuff that straight up gives you high skilled leaders.
Post by: Culise on April 13, 2017, 09:57:47 pm
Indeed, though I wasn't aware of any techs that altered leader levels directly; they usually increase lifespan, which gives leaders more time to pick up experience. While it's complete overkill, my first warlike game post-Utopia with my xenophobic, leader-focused oligarchy has thus far ended up with the following:How does one even get a five-star admiral? Mine either die young or die of old age because there's nothing to fight for long stretches.You get so much exp just from fighting. Your first war alone should give you a 5 star general.
But failing that, there's a lot of tech and tradition stuff that straight up gives you high skilled leaders.
- Talented and Quick Learner traits (+1 skill level and +25% experience to all leaders)
- Meritocracy civic (+1 skill level to all leaders)
- Discovery>Polytechnic Education tradition (+1 skill level to all leaders)
- Supremacy>War Games tradition (+2 skill levels to admirals)
Once I racked up the tradition (Supremacy was my fourth tree), I was recruiting five-star admirals fresh out of the academy, and that only because six-star admirals don't exist. Other leaders had to settle for a mere four stars and an accelerated experience curve. Training? Who needs training? :P
Post by: umiman on April 14, 2017, 12:32:07 am
Having rank 3 leaders at the start is so strong. You can basically go for any anomaly and fight enemies 25% stronger than you. Your buildings are also way cheaper and build faster.
The strongest trait is still extremely adaptable though. Being able to settle anywhere basically breaks the game into ultra easy mode, especially in this patch where there's more or less no penalty for low happiness.
Post by: Majestic7 on April 14, 2017, 02:03:34 am
Post by: Retropunch on April 14, 2017, 07:52:19 am
I can't help but feel that leaders are quite lackluster, though. In the sense that they are just floating bonuses, not personalities. I don't give a fuck who is leading what and flying which science ship beyond the very start. Just find a guy with the right bonus and put him in the right position, then forget. I get it, this is similar to what EU4 is like, but still. I'd appreciate a little more personality from leaders. Especially in dictatorships and such. Events tied to the ruler personality traits and the traits of faction leaders would be nice.
Yeah, I've never once known anyone's name or cared about what they do - I just see them as flat bonuses.
Part of the problem is that there aren't really any negative traits/whatever. There's one or two, but they tend to be rather trivial - therefore there's no choice involved. Sure, they don't need to be CK2 style characters (that might get a bit onerous) but they could really do with being just a bit more interesting.
Post by: Neonivek on April 14, 2017, 08:43:24 am
But then we get into the fact that we can't really do much with them a lot of the time... AND that some of them feel odd in their rarity.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 14, 2017, 10:18:29 am
Post by: umiman on April 14, 2017, 10:36:38 am
Also, they tend to really only live long enough to be used once. In my experience, I'd get an admiral, fight a massive fleet battle with him, then he would die like 60 years later having never fought again. New war, new admiral, all over again.I made a race of cybernetic tree people that lived to around 250 years old.
It was pretty amusing, but there's kinda no point to them living so long other than it being funny seeing the same people get elected over and over again.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 14, 2017, 01:24:46 pm
I currently tearing into my second fallen empire, which awoke immediately after I destroyed the first one.
Also, they tend to really only live long enough to be used once. In my experience, I'd get an admiral, fight a massive fleet battle with him, then he would die like 60 years later having never fought again. New war, new admiral, all over again.
This actually feels realistic. I feel like really major wars usually only break out once/twice a lifetime.
I'm playing a fleeting race and I have had an admiral or two that never even see a really big war.
Post by: QuakeIV on April 14, 2017, 02:10:56 pm
Post by: TempAcc on April 14, 2017, 03:18:23 pm
I just smashed the biggest awakened empire in my galaxy just by touring around their space with a two stacks of ships which combined were a little bigger in size in comparison to their own doomstack of 160k fleet power. Despite the fact my fleet was split in half to take more planets, they never once sent their fleet against me. They just kind of... Went somewhere else, and I just kept taking planets still I won with the total victory condition and they just disappeared.
I mean sure, there was a war in heaven happening, and the other remaining fallen empire was awake and attacking them, but it still made no sense that they didn't try to attack me, considering how close I was to their main fleet.
My fleets are composed almost solely of battleships and corvettes. The corvettes are just meant to use afterburners and get onto the enemy's face and form a screen while the battleships just play artillery on the enemy. I got a second "support" battleship hull type equipped with focused arc emitters, gauss cannons and and flak for enemy fighters/bombers and fast ships in general.
Post by: Uristides on April 14, 2017, 03:42:56 pm
The unbidden have since been beaten back by the galatic police, aka crazy awakened ascendancy who declared on me before, and I'm finally having some breathing room and a chance to expand my reach so that hopefully one day I can beat the galatic police into an irrelevant fallen empire again.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 14, 2017, 03:58:25 pm
Had the unbidden suddenly spawn inside my neighboring rival. They ate him from inside out, and their dwindiling borders netted me a couple of border systems plus a colonizable planet in a galaxy arm that would otherwise be theirs uncontested. Found it really neat how the game can shake up the status quo like that.
The unbidden have since been beaten back by the galatic police, aka crazy awakened ascendancy who declared on me before, and I'm finally having some breathing room and a chance to expand my reach so that hopefully one day I can beat the galatic police into an irrelevant fallen empire again.
Help them out in the hopes that you can get some of that sweet sweet tech salvage
Post by: Sergarr on April 14, 2017, 05:13:07 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 14, 2017, 05:20:14 pm
Post by: Aedel on April 14, 2017, 05:26:34 pm
I wonder what was the design reason for having the Sentinels awake to the organic extra-galactic invaders, but do totally nothing against the energy-being extra-universal ones. It's not like they're harder or anything, from what I've seen.
I'm barely awake so I may not remember it right, but aren't Sentinels following the organic invaders into the galaxy, or specifically trained to fight them?
Post by: TempAcc on April 14, 2017, 06:21:12 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 15, 2017, 05:00:25 am
The unbidden just did very little. They stayed in their area of space (separated from my border by a small unclaimed gap) and occasionally sent lone 50k stacks into a random empire. They did expand, but they never got worse. Their territory just covered a few more stars than at their peak versus when they spawned in. The AI empires could easily crush the stacks and so could I.
Hell, it's been a remarkably long time since they arrived and they're still here. Even though they're right by my borders, they haven't expanded at all recently and the AI doesn't know how to kill them. Maybe every 15 years or so I get a 50k stack wandering in and out of my territory, which I usually just promptly exterminate with my 160k fleet.
The scourge was worse. They never did anything but perpetually bombard worlds. Their troops and constructors stayed in one spot for the whole time they were there. They literally have zero territory over the course of their tiny invasion and when they spawned, their individual fleets were remarkably more powerful than my entire armada. But since they just bombarded the same worlds without doing anything else, it never was a problem.
It feels like the unbidden thing is just a disappointing behavior but the scourge is a bug.
I was expecting an endgame crisis to be a bit more of an actual crisis. Like an empire-destroying galaxy-consuming ever-expanding blob. Not just a couple of separated 50k stacks of ships.
Post by: TempAcc on April 15, 2017, 09:08:35 am
I guess I also had a huge number of tiny fleets going into their territory at the same time (which were newly built ships trying to join up with the main fleet), which kinda made the main enemy fleet keep warping from system to system to try and kill them, but its still kinda silly to see a 160k stack roaming around to murder single battleships and corvettes while my own two 80k fleets fuckmurder their most important worlds.
Post by: JimboM12 on April 16, 2017, 06:30:18 pm
On a cooler note, habitats are fucking awesome. System with only one kinda small planet and a few useless dead worlds? Now you can build a small planet in the same system for the (relatively cheap) price of 5k minerals and 200 influence. And you don't need to research any of the mega construct things, only fortresses and defense platforms I think. No upkeep to maintain other than what you need for colonies. Energy focused habitats are the shiznit.
Also, food being a global resource now is one of the best changes in any game ever.
Post by: Baffler on April 16, 2017, 07:41:35 pm
The AI for unbidden so far are pretty decent, they'll spread their doomstack fleets out to wipe out multiple colonies and if you try to suicide rush their portal, they'll recall all of them to come defend it. The only reason I didn't smash it initially was because it spawned in the center of a hostile rival who closed their borders to me so I could not reach the Unbidden and to make matters worse they put up just good enough of a fight to buy the unbidden time to spread before my Grand Imperial Fleet (at a whopping 100k at its most powerful) could crush them before it started.
On a cooler note, habitats are fucking awesome. System with only one kinda small planet and a few useless dead worlds? Now you can build a small planet in the same system for the (relatively cheap) price of 5k minerals and 200 influence. And you don't need to research any of the mega construct things, only fortresses and defense platforms I think. No upkeep to maintain other than what you need for colonies. Energy focused habitats are the shiznit.
Also, food being a global resource now is one of the best changes in any game ever.
Orbital habitats are 100% habitable for everyone too, so you can populate them with whoever you please. My only complaint is that they can't have spaceports, and you have to build and launch a colony ship to populate them. Like, I get that the game wouldn't be able to effectively pick a starting pop to put there, especially for a multispecies empire, but it should be considered owned by whatever empire built it, and have pops be able to migrate/be resettled to it after it's been built.
Post by: Sirus on April 16, 2017, 08:01:42 pm
I dunno, but mine seem to be working okay. Maybe because I built much of their infrastructure before declaring them but as of now they're all contributing a decent amount to the empire's coffers while continuing their own improvements. One of my sectors even colonized a world within their borders and are now allocating minerals towards getting another colony ship built.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 16, 2017, 08:22:00 pm
They colonize pretty frequently, actually build stuff, and are otherwise pretty smart. I feel safe giving newly conquered or settled worlds to a sector now.
Post by: Baffler on April 16, 2017, 10:38:51 pm
Post by: Descan on April 16, 2017, 11:01:19 pm
Expanding on that, I'd like each sector to be a faction in my empire, lead by the governor, who need to be appeased the same as a faction (though with different bonuses, like getting more minerals out of them or energy/research, or preventing civil war and governors colluding to a la a CK2 independence faction) and with ethics based on the dominant ethics of that portion of your empire (and those ethics being the governing ethics of the new empire if they do become independent) I'm not sure that each planet should be a faction though... That would quickly fill up the faction list.
It always felt weird to have half my empire leaderless because I have 3 or 4 science vessels (which is a small number even then) 2 fleets and an army, plus the 3 reserachers. That only leaves you with 1 or even 0 governors from the beginning, and only a small number within a decade or two.
Obviously this idea is most suited to democracies, and least suited to dictatorships, but it can probably be molded a tad or just be a Democracy-only system (seems a lot of work to just use for one government type, at least without some corresponding systems for the others, though hell, even Hive Minds can use it, if they're of the Zerg/Bugger variety where there are multiple Queens/Cerebrates each controlling a portion of the species and sometimes fighting or vying with each other)
As for the bit more control, I was just thinking of like, allowing the expenditure of influene to force a building to be built on a slot. I.E. if you really want them to build that clone vats, or the mineral/energy production multiplier building, or when the AI simply refuses to upgrade that spaceport or the planetary HQ, etc.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on April 16, 2017, 11:16:56 pm
So like, there should be a grace period where sectors are malleable, but after that there should be some kind of consequence for removing systems. Like either people get mad at you, or the sector has a bonus that builds up over time and you lose that bonus.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 16, 2017, 11:23:19 pm
More complex systems could be developed from this point, but it feels like a good starting step possible to implement within the current mechanics. I just want any part of the game after the start to be more than "wait for [technologies/ships/buildings/megastructures] until you can expand]".
Hell, in my current playthrough I've been trying to convert my Xenophile Materialist Egalitarian oligarchy into a Xenophobic Authoritative monarchy. But even with reading the wiki and specifically changing my empire to promote growth of the xenophobe and authoritarian ethics, it's nearly impossible to convert my populations. I had to gene mod species for specific traits, suppress and promote factions, remove as many +government ethics attraction modifiers and add as many +ethics divergence modifiers as possible, and yet I still couldn't do anything. It doesn't help that I can't embrace factions (moving your official ethics towards their ethic) without enough support, and without the official ethics, I can't do many of the things that would garner support for the factions.
Xenophobe ethics attraction increases with xeno slaves, but you can't enslave aliens without the xenophobe ethic.
The "one ethic per pop" is probably a culprit here. It makes ethics a zero-sum game, so to increase Xenophobe support in your empire, the support for another ethics has to decrease, which is hard when you can't manage the attractions of every ethic easily.
At this point, my biggest annoyance with Stellaris is the ethics gateways the game's full of. Why do I have to be militarist to bomb planets more? Why does the government have to have an official stance on hating aliens for me to enslave them? You should be able to do any action, and the biggest blocker should be your people. Sure, you can Armageddon bomb that planet as a pacifist, but that may just cause riots in your city. Sure, you could enslave aliens, but your xenophiles will really not appreciate that. But instead, it's this gamey binary mechanic.
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 17, 2017, 04:02:06 am
They don't seem to respect their focuses very well though. I had a sector with three inhabited systems, one planet each, and two of them had titanic life on them and one had an anomalous magnetic field. Okay, neat. I called it the Titan Expanse, included a few uninhabited systems for resources, and set it to research focus. It soon thereafter played host to the most productive mining operations in the whole empire. I think maybe it's a bit too zealous for my purpose with the 'respect tile resources;' but I don't really want it to have the sector on life support either and I don't know how smart it is about remaining self-sufficient.Did you have it set to respect tile resources? Was redevelopment enabled?
So long as I don't tell mine to respect tile resources they seem to appropriately work towards the focus I select.
Post by: TempAcc on April 17, 2017, 08:05:17 am
The AI for unbidden so far are pretty decent, they'll spread their doomstack fleets out to wipe out multiple colonies and if you try to suicide rush their portal, they'll recall all of them to come defend it. The only reason I didn't smash it initially was because it spawned in the center of a hostile rival who closed their borders to me so I could not reach the Unbidden and to make matters worse they put up just good enough of a fight to buy the unbidden time to spread before my Grand Imperial Fleet (at a whopping 100k at its most powerful) could crush them before it started.
A good way to make the AI flip out is to send a steady stream of small disposable fleets directly into the portal system. This will cause their doomstacks to keep warping from system to system and keep them from gaining territory as they repeately try to murder your tiny corvettes. This way you can stop their expansion while sending your own doomstack to intercept theirs while they warp around, stopping them from joining up to fight you.
Post by: JimboM12 on April 17, 2017, 08:08:18 am
A good way to make the AI flip out is to send a steady stream of small disposable fleets directly into the portal system. This will cause their doomstacks to keep warping from system to system and keep them from gaining territory as they repeately try to murder your tiny corvettes. This way you can stop their expansion while sending your own doomstack to intercept theirs while they warp around, stopping them from joining up to fight you.
That's a good idea. I just led a Federation fleet comprised of 4 races (including a awakened empire) towards the portal in a giant epic battle we narrowly won.
Post by: Greenbane on April 17, 2017, 06:22:06 pm
Would it be possible to mod in a special trait for that, detailing the specific characteristics of these subspecies, or would I need to do it through events?
Post by: umiman on April 17, 2017, 06:34:01 pm
Post by: Greenbane on April 17, 2017, 06:44:42 pm
Are you trying to create the lizardmen?
Not sure which you mean. I'm trying to create an internally diverse race composed of three pseudo-reptilian subspecies.
Post by: umiman on April 17, 2017, 06:51:40 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizardmen_(Warhammer)Are you trying to create the lizardmen?
Not sure which you mean. I'm trying to create an internally diverse race composed of three pseudo-reptilian subspecies.
---
I'm not sure you can start with three different species. You can change syncretic so you start with a specific species you want but not sure you can increase that number.
Post by: Greenbane on April 17, 2017, 07:18:13 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizardmen_(Warhammer) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizardmen_(Warhammer))
Lore-wise, I'm using reptiles as a rough base but trying to add alien changes as I can. Hence the "pseudo-reptilian" definition: a human would call them such because they share some characteristics with Earth reptiles, plus a superficial resemblance (if you ignore stuff like their six limbs), without really being space lizards. I also obviously avoid copy-pasting entire human cultures, like Warhammer and so much of fantasy/sci-fi does when coming up with fictional species. But most of this lore exceeds the confines of Stellaris.
So I dug around the files, and it seems the Syncretic Evolution civic doesn't do anything by itself. It rather fulfills a condition which at the game start triggers an event which provides the species in question 4 pops of strong, presentient proles. Except for humans, who specifically get Neo-Chimps for minions, it'd seem the servants' other characteristics are randomly generated. So duplicating this mechanic and tweaking some stuff I could produce a unique civic which triggers an event which generates pops of two other precisely defined species within the same nation.
Post by: Wiles on April 18, 2017, 11:12:58 am
Post by: Mephansteras on April 18, 2017, 11:54:16 am
Post by: thvaz on April 18, 2017, 12:32:32 pm
Post by: umiman on April 18, 2017, 12:37:52 pm
I had a defensive pact with a empire and that empire was DoW'ed by a militaristic Forgotten Empire. The Forgotten Empire targeted only my systems and I couldn't even surrender. It was in the beginning of the game, I hadn't even cruisers yet.Don't settle next to militaristic fallen empires. Or build outposts near them. Or do anything around them.
If you started the game next to one, just create a new game.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on April 18, 2017, 01:43:42 pm
I then promptly surrendered - which means they killed my leader and humiliated me - but lost absolutely nothing else. When they declared war again, some X years later, I did the same. It became a comfortable routine, my leaders governing with full understanding they would be offered up to the dark gods of the Fallen Empire at the end of their 'term'.
I eventually crushed the FE and enslaved the lot of them, renaming each system as insultingly as possible. It was possibly the sweetest vengeance I have ever experienced.
Post by: Descan on April 18, 2017, 01:58:06 pm
Xenophobes (what you meant when you said militarist) should want to make battle-thralls (Ur-Quan style) out of nearby xenophobic/militarist/authoritarian empires (allowing you to settle the juicy worlds that are near to the empire, but requiring you to occasionally go to war with other empires also in the vicinity that aren't thralls, cleansing their worlds) that they use as buffer states to keep the more vile races away.
Xenophilic ones should should want to have as many empires as possible under their "guidance" (read: some sort of pseudo-alliance/federation where the empires have automatic migration treaties together to go with the "xenophilia" thing, at least if your ethics allow it. If they do, you can't not be part of the migration treaty, you accept everyone even if they're All Bad Traits)
Materialist should want to keep an eye on your research, while offering some scraps of help along the way when they see you stumbling around in the dark like an idiot (so like a (x)% research boost while outright preventing you from researching dangerous tech)
On another note: I'd love to see Fallen Empire use the three ascension paths, as a subset of them. Materialist = Synthetic Ascension, obv. Same as Psionics = Spiritualist. Not sure if Xenophilic would really fit as the biological one, though... The obvious fit is also materialist, and Xenophobe should want to stay as Perfect as they've always been (i.e. no chance of being ascended)
Ah! I got it. Xeno-(x) should stay natural as befits their "We Are Perfection" and "All Life is Special" stances, Spiritualist and Materialist should use their obvious ones, and they should allow some FEs to spawn as Hive Minds who may also be biologically ascended. Perfect fit!
Post by: Majestic7 on April 18, 2017, 03:29:16 pm
Speaking of which, I hope synthetic and biological ascension paths get stuff added like PSI have now. Not similar stuff, Shroud is fine being unique in nature to PSI, but just something to add to the feeling of risks and rewards.
Post by: Descan on April 18, 2017, 03:45:43 pm
Though yeah, bio doesn't seem to have one.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 18, 2017, 07:06:09 pm
Post by: Teneb on April 18, 2017, 07:16:14 pm
I don't have Utopia (or a computer that can run it right now :I) but I do know that uploaded pops share the AI uprising-risk trait of Synthetic. While that feels wrong (You shouldn't be susceptable to an AI uprising when you *are* the AI) if there aren't any checks in the game for that, technically speaking, there is a risk to synthetic ascension.I dunno. The official wiki claims otherwise (http://www.stellariswiki.com/Crisis#Interaction_with_AI_Rebellion).
Though yeah, bio doesn't seem to have one.
Quote
Note on Synthetic Ascension and AI Rebellion: Right now Synthetic ascension creates a species with the Synthetic trait. AI rebellion checks for 'specific' robotic species, that is Droids and generic Synths. Both Robots and Uploaded Synths are immune to joining AI Rebellions.
Post by: Descan on April 18, 2017, 08:06:33 pm
Post by: da_nang on April 20, 2017, 01:20:05 pm
Just as I got up to 100k, locked and ready to go to take a few stabs at the FE, who had resigned himself to staying inside his border with one of my planets occupied and remained fully content to repeatedly ask for white peace, the Unbidden shows up on the other side of the galaxy.
Way to fuck up the timing, guys! >:(
Post by: Digital Hellhound on April 20, 2017, 01:45:32 pm
I should've seen it coming, in retrospect - those hypocritical, treacherous pacifists could never have tolerated the healthy competition of the Republic. Our very existence threatened the hold these authoritarian regimes had on their chained, misguided peoples.
And so it was that the Gor Republic attacked the Unbidden and suffered devastating losses - but the path to the Portal was now almost within reach. And how did these pacifists repay the Gor for their sacrifice? By declaring war upon the weakened Republic.
Their attack was one of overwhelming force, but disorganized and hesitant - the campaign of cowards unused to true war. For decades, the conflict dragged on, the Gor as always throwing themselves to battle without hesitation. In the end, we triumphed, claiming a handful of their worlds as rightful restitution.
Now we have, at last, finished what we started so long ago. The Unbidden are banished - and the Gor are ready to exact their vengeance upon these betrayers...
(Tl;dr: having fun as a militaristic republic, decided to be all Defender of the Galaxy, got backstabbed by an Authoritarian/Pacifist mega-Federation for my troubles, now aim to get my vengeance on. They actually love me right now because of the Threat of the Unbidden, but I will show no mercy.)
Post by: da_nang on April 20, 2017, 04:55:19 pm
Simultaneously, the newly christened Guardians of the Galaxy fleet went into production. Millions of tons of minerals were spent and several spaceports ran 24/7 to produce nothing but our new Guardian-class battleships.
Our scout, the brave crew of the constructor Povav Abb Ybb, went scouting ahead, reporting at least one anchor was in place.
But never fear, the navy is here. Even as the assembly lines ran hot, we sent both First Fleet and Guardians of the Galaxy ahead to prepare for an assault. But alas, the dastardly Unbidden caught our brave cadets in warp cooldown. It was a dire struggle and both fleets took heavy losses, Guardians of the Galaxy in particular due to the lack of screening elements and point-blank range.
The assault was postponed until sufficient reinforcements could arrive, which was complicated by the long distance to our Realm, and the fleet remained holding position just inside Unbidden space.
But what, you might ask, were the other so-called Empires and Federations and Doctrinal Enforcers contributing while our Realm bled? Absolutely nothing! Even our so-called ally merely sat there inside their space, like he did during our defensive war against the Enigmatic Observers, while the Unbidden ravaged the surroundings.
This stab in the back will be remembered.
Years passed by of this phoney war against the Unbidden with those extradimensional cowards attacking our ships.
But we held the line.
First Fleet continued taking losses but, with strategic positioning, our Guardian battleships took minimal damage. Reinforcements had filled the ranks enough that the assault could continue.
It wasn't an easy battle, as the anchor wasn't just guarded by stations, but two full-fledged Unbidden fleets. But the fate of the galaxy was at stake; we could wait no longer.
We were triumphant. Although Guardians of the Galaxy took damage, they still had enough firepower to continue. First Fleet, however, had taken significant damage from the fleets. The corvettes and cruisers had sadly been destroyed and only a few token PD-destroyers remained to safeguards the battleships. Even so, we pressed on, as our scout had reported sightings of two more anchors.
The second anchor was guarded similarly and a hard-fought battle and victory was had. By now, we had reverse-engineered several of the Unbidden's technologies, though it would take time for it to propagate to the front line.
The third anchor was practically undefended.
Finally, the main portal remained. As we sent our fleets, battered but proud, the battleships encountered one last desperate defense by the Unbidden in the form of a fleet, which had entered our dimension just in time. It was quickly dispatched of. And as we aimed our guns at the portal, it was with a thunderous roar, with which we tore it asunder.
The galaxy rejoiced. The Unbidden threat was over.
But it will not last.
For even as we rebuild our fleets, we now take sight at the cowards that had left us to fend for ourselves as they squabbled in their squalor.
We must ask: Do they want total war? If necessary, do they want a war more total and radical than anything that we can even yet imagine?
For we have reaped the fruit of our labor and our unforgiving rage tires us not.
Post by: Baffler on April 20, 2017, 05:43:25 pm
-snip-
Good luck. I find the aftermath of a major crisis like that is often just as fun as the crisis itself, since it's one of the few situations that can out and out overturn the galaxy's established order, and unlike the crisis it plays out in a completely different way every time.
I had a similar situation play out where I wanted to play as a democratic crusader (spiritualist, militarist, egalitarian, inspired somewhat by the turn of the century USA and the French 3rd Republic.) I helpfully ended up in a galaxy full of materialistic imperial states and a few peaceful hermit kingdom style xenophobes, but a series of bitter midgame wars where my immediate neighbor kept trying to conquer me made liberating the oppressed masses of the galaxy pretty problematic until I managed to uplift and integrate Earth. After I could colonize all the continental and ocean worlds inside my territory beating them was possible, but it still took one grueling war to liberate some of their worlds and another to bring the rest of the place under my new ally's control.
The Prethoryn Swarm showed up inside the borders of my spiritualist/xenophile/egalitarian buddy's territory at the end of our shared galactic arm really early in the game though, only about 30 years after I'd beaten my original enemy. The two of us and my liberated former rival fought them off, barely, but all the building up was spent beating the swarm back and the rest of the galaxy smelled blood in the water. We were a federation at that point, while the rest were acting individually, but despite giving as well as we got they just had more to give.
Hilariously space freedom was saved when the hermit kingdoms decided to use their enemies' distraction to launch wars of their own. Before, the whole galaxy was a fairly stable half-dozen big empires surrounding my own Pocket of Freedom and a couple heavily armed xenophobe fortresses. Afterward there was a whole chaotic mess of xenophobes genociding or forcing out (and in one case eating) the former imperial species, conquered peoples and slaves rebelling against their masters and trying to carve out space for themselves, and the old powers desperately trying to keep hold of what they've got if not take back what they had before. The swarm was practically an afterthought to set up that whole shitfest, which ended with my allies and the few democratic states that rose joining up (and getting tons of energy and minerals for the Arsenal of Democracy) and liberating the rest.
Post by: Sirus on April 20, 2017, 05:44:08 pm
This is the fifth time I've fought off the unbidden (this time it was much harder because bumrushing was harder thanks to it being on the opposite side of the galaxy, and my ships were geared as anti-armour), and it's annoying me now.Why not install a mod that allows for multiple crises to trigger per game?
I'm gonna find the commands to summon the Prethoryn Scourge and the Machine Consciousness.
Post by: Neonivek on April 20, 2017, 05:52:08 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 20, 2017, 06:42:41 pm
If you demand that all of a civ's planets liberate themselves as a war demand, they will reform their entire government under your identical ethics. They will then love you and usually join your federation.
All will join the unity in time.
Post by: Shooer on April 20, 2017, 06:47:20 pm
The Unbidden are who you are going to fight the MAJORITY of the time.Especialy with FE's waking up being a thing.
Post by: JimboM12 on April 20, 2017, 06:48:30 pm
I discovered how to unite the galaxy.
If you demand that all of a civ's planets liberate themselves as a war demand, they will reform their entire government under your identical ethics. They will then love you and usually join your federation.
All will join the unity in time.
This is a classic trick for both Glorious Empires who want vassals and for DEMOCRATIC PIGSSSSS and their federations, feh.
Post by: Neonivek on April 20, 2017, 06:52:52 pm
The Unbidden are who you are going to fight the MAJORITY of the time.Especialy with FE's waking up being a thing.
Well the issue is that the AI are very uncommon due to the exact conditions where they come into being AND the fact that for the most part the last upgrade of the AI tree can be a negative... and that even the AI don't like to build too many AIs. As well even if the player would like to force this scenario for fun, it isn't a great idea.
The other ones (who I forget the name of) require sooo much time to pass that you basically have to be wasting time in order to see them appear. I've beaten large galaxies at a leisurely pace before I even hit the time conditions for them to show up.
All while the Unbiden have two conditions... One that the AI goes for... and a second that is almost an absolute necessity for larger galaxies.
And then yeah there are awakened empires.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 20, 2017, 08:45:33 pm
I discovered how to unite the galaxy.
If you demand that all of a civ's planets liberate themselves as a war demand, they will reform their entire government under your identical ethics. They will then love you and usually join your federation.
All will join the unity in time.
This is a classic trick for both Glorious Empires who want vassals and for DEMOCRATIC PIGSSSSS and their federations, feh.
It's the first time I've tried pork voting since the game released. I realize now this is why I just discovered it.
Post by: Skyrunner on April 21, 2017, 04:47:46 am
Post by: Majestic7 on April 21, 2017, 05:43:25 am
There's a thought, birthing Slaanesh while there is another end-game crisis going on? Wonder how that'd mix with War in the Heavens?
Post by: Teneb on April 21, 2017, 09:55:55 am
AI and Unbidden are triggered by technology. Swarm is only triggered by time. So if you are really slow to reach certain technologies and nobody else does either, you get the swarm. Vanilla game is limited to one crisis, so having one locks out the others. Though I think Slaanesh is a sort of bonus crisis you can get on top of that.I've only ever gotten the AI. Which was impressive, since the empire that caused it was getting warred by the local materialist FE non-stop.
There's a thought, birthing Slaanesh while there is another end-game crisis going on? Wonder how that'd mix with War in the Heavens?
Anyway, the End of the Cycle can indeed happen regardless of other crisis and does not prevent those if they haven't happened yet. The wiki seems to indicate that, unlike the other 3, it can't cause FEs to awaken.
EDIT: Looks like 1.6 is named after Adams (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-69-beyond-utopia.1015396/&utm_source=in-game&utm_medium=game-client&utm_content=devdiary&utm_campaign=adam_stellaris_devdiary_all_20170420).
Post by: Sirus on April 21, 2017, 10:24:17 am
If you already have that, then I don't know :(
Post by: umiman on April 21, 2017, 11:22:17 am
Question: How do you terraform terraforming candidates? I found one, and there's no "terraform" button or anything anywhere, science ships can't do it, and neither can construction ships.You need the proper terraforming technology (I think you need terraforming, then atmospheric something). Also make sure you keep track of what planet has that modifier as the game refuses to save it for you.
When you have both, the terraform button on the planet will be clickable and you can change the type.
Post by: Descan on April 21, 2017, 11:44:20 am
Post by: umiman on April 21, 2017, 12:11:34 pm
I have every terraforming tech aside from gaia creation.It should be right there when you click on the planet. Literally right in the middle of it next to its picture. It's the same terraforming button you see on every single planet, that you click to terraform them, including barren planets you can't even terraform to begin with.
It's just not showing a button.
Edit:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 21, 2017, 02:56:01 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on April 21, 2017, 03:25:32 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 21, 2017, 04:11:48 pm
Speaking of which, how common are terraforming candidates supposed to be? I've mapped out at least a quarter of my medium galaxy and either never found any or never noticed them. They are a free feature, right?I've only found a handful of them so far, so they seem to be quite rare
Post by: umiman on April 21, 2017, 04:29:36 pm
Speaking of which, how common are terraforming candidates supposed to be? I've mapped out at least a quarter of my medium galaxy and either never found any or never noticed them. They are a free feature, right?It's just an anomaly thing.
Post by: Uristides on April 21, 2017, 05:12:20 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also, how do you manage ship design upgrades? I don't really like how the auto-upgrade checkbox works, but upgrading battleships and fortresses manually is just mind-melting, given the amount of components they have. Also, is there any way to upgrade military stations other than going through all my systems to find out where I have one or more of them, then entering each system, selecting them and clicking upgrade one by one?
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 21, 2017, 06:17:20 pm
Don't know about fortresses.
Post by: Baffler on April 21, 2017, 08:43:20 pm
Post by: Descan on April 21, 2017, 09:10:53 pm
Post by: Shadowlord on April 22, 2017, 09:57:38 am
> makes it only bug fixes (and quality of life changes)
oh Paradox
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 22, 2017, 10:19:09 am
I only switch it up if the unbidden show up or something like that.
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 22, 2017, 11:14:09 am
Post by: IcyTea31 on April 22, 2017, 11:42:00 am
Post by: Mephansteras on April 22, 2017, 02:04:43 pm
But still...none of them have migrated to my worlds. That includes big desert worlds with Land Of Opportunity on.
My guess is distance. They're pretty far away, and there is a hostile empire in between us. I recently put up wormhole generators so I can reach their lands, but I don't know if that'll help any.
Does anyone know what the limiting factor is? Do their ships have to reach my worlds to migrate? Is there a simple distance limit on how far pops will migrate out of their own empire?
Post by: Ivefan on April 22, 2017, 02:27:18 pm
Post by: kilakan on April 22, 2017, 02:41:53 pm
Post by: Mini on April 22, 2017, 05:14:43 pm
Post by: umiman on April 22, 2017, 08:28:52 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on April 23, 2017, 01:16:14 am
We have a migration treaty, so I know their settings allow it. Unless they changed that after the fact. Don't know if the game will do that or not.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 23, 2017, 06:40:59 am
I've also noticed that migrations towards your existing core worlds from external empires is quite slow.Does it vary from proximity? It would be really cool for example if migration happened between planets that were close to one another (or very quickly for planets in the same system) while pangalactic migration happened much slower
Post by: da_nang on April 23, 2017, 10:11:06 am
Such fools.
Spoiler: And so it began, the greatest lagfest of our time... (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Halfway there! (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Oh dear... (click to show/hide)
They never really recovered after that and we simply mopped up the remaining planets. So much for the Awakened Empire.
Post by: Draignean on April 23, 2017, 10:45:31 am
Post by: Sirus on April 23, 2017, 11:02:15 am
...I'm also not understanding why the AE fleet refused to flee. In my experience, large fleet actions like that rarely result in the total destruction of one side or the other in a single battle. If the AI feels outmatched, they'll flee with what they can.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on April 23, 2017, 11:17:05 am
I don't get why they're missing a fleet admiral, though.
Post by: Uristides on April 23, 2017, 11:21:06 am
I mean, it takes like 30d for me to upgrade a ship design, and I just upgrade en-masse by fleet.Clicking the upgrade button is easy, what I was talking about is had more to do with replacing all the tier i components in my battleships to tier i+1 in the design screen. I accept some micro when balancing power usage is to be expected, but upgrading armor plates is pain.
I just don't bother to iterate the designs unless there's war or it looks like there's going to be a war, since it only takes a short time to do the actual refit.Part in italics has been my problem for the most part of this run, otherwise that works well enough. But before I beefed up in size I felt like I had to constantly upgrade my ships to give my fleet power a boost and keep my less friendly neighbors from jumping on me. I'm actually not even sure if this was an effective deterrent, but I can only assume.
The actual upgrade is simple enough; Auto-complete, unless it changed, will upgrade all your non-weapon systems to their best and what the game thinks is good vis a vis armour/shields/accessories/reactors, and you can then fiddle with the weapons. Really, it's the weapons that are the time-sink; Trying to figure out whether this +15% vs armour gun but less damage is better than just flat damage, missiles vs lasers, etc.You're talking about the auto-complete button, not the automatic upgrade checkbox, right? I've never used the former, tbh, will give it a try next time I launch the game.
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on April 23, 2017, 12:05:52 pm
For those who haven't read the trilogy, the premise is that humanity wipes itself out and this alien race, the Oanakli sweep in at the last minute (they were watching, unsure if they were witnessing the accidental self-destruction of humanity and so should interfere, or a purposeful suicide, and so should not). They are peaceful vegetarians who love life, look like creepy anemone people and have three sexes, and hypersensitive tentacle/stingers which lets them read precise genetic information from everything. The third sex is the Ooloi who have extra tentacle arms that let them manipulate genes directly, up to building viable lifeforms in their own bodies for hatching or planting.
To the Oankali humanity is intrinsically fucked: we are both intelligent and hierarchical, which to them is stupid and unsustainable, but also really exciting, in a "self-destructive anti-hero/sexy badboy" way. On a genetic level.
They rescue everyone they can, put them into hibernation, feed what they can of human civilization (cities, etc) into their shuttles, let earth grow over with jungles, let radiation fade and wake people up to explain what they want from us. What they want is our genes, especially cancer (which they can use to learn to shape-shift and regenerate), and in exchange they'll fix us, but also make us into them (sort of), in the sense that we will grow tentacles, and completely revise our entire sexuality around the ooloi third gender, and its' crazy gene/sex/addictive chemical/hallucination powers, which in turn will fix the whole hierarchical issue vs. intelligent issue.
Also its isn't really an option to say no. Welcome to Oankali trading!
so Natural sociologists, Adaptable, Deviants, Slow breeders, Prole species, and a serious beeline for genetic manipulation and the related culture project.
Along the way I "traded" with a medieval race of floating, militaristic and very strong plants (slow breeders), a race of intelligent, but fragile squid people. A race of subterranean, adorably cute mushroom people who were also natural physicists (sedentary), tunnleled up in my second world and occasionally produced refugees. My prole race were many-armed lizards. Between these and my generous openness to immigrants (mostly horse and squid people from nearby peaceful civlizations), my Ooloi had plenty of room to experiment and my biology research was off-the-charts.
Soon I hit the point where I could manipulate genes directly. I started with the lesser species. We aren't building one super races, we are building 7. Already my president is Ooloi floating gourd from a world which was having medieval wars just a decade before.
Post by: Sirus on April 23, 2017, 12:41:26 pm
Start the game, begin to explore my home system...and then I get a message from another race. A Fallen Empire of the Holy Guardian flavor. They're already pissed at me for daring to evolve on a world they consider holy. Oh, and they're maybe five hyperspace jumps away from me.
How totally screwed am I?
Post by: Aedel on April 23, 2017, 12:45:21 pm
So I started a game as a hive mind race, just to try it out. Made them powerful warriors that could hopefully just steamroll whatever they encounter, and purely for flavor's sake edited their files so that they have Tomb World preference.
Start the game, begin to explore my home system...and then I get a message from another race. A Fallen Empire of the Holy Guardian flavor. They're already pissed at me for daring to evolve on a world they consider holy. Oh, and they're maybe five hyperspace jumps away from me.
How totally screwed am I?
From personal experience, 100%. They'll declare war then purge your
Post by: Teneb on April 23, 2017, 12:46:38 pm
EDIT: One of the neighboring empires somehow managed to colonize a planet in the same system as the Enigmatic Fortress. It's just out of reach. I am impressed.
Post by: JimboM12 on April 23, 2017, 01:49:30 pm
So I started a game as a hive mind race, just to try it out. Made them powerful warriors that could hopefully just steamroll whatever they encounter, and purely for flavor's sake edited their files so that they have Tomb World preference.
Start the game, begin to explore my home system...and then I get a message from another race. A Fallen Empire of the Holy Guardian flavor. They're already pissed at me for daring to evolve on a world they consider holy. Oh, and they're maybe five hyperspace jumps away from me.
How totally screwed am I?
That's impressively Dwarf Fortress like, kudos to Paradox. I've had something similar happen, but it was because I started right next to an isolationist one and the only planets I could colonize were still right there next to their borders. I tried forming a series of defensive pacts but to no avail.
Post by: Sirus on April 23, 2017, 01:56:16 pm
Another odd thing that happened is that I found another civ not too far from me, one of those xenophobic spiritualists. I closed borders of course, declared them a rival, did my best to start building up a fleet for inevitable war...and just a minute ago they completely dropped off the radar. They no longer appear in my contact list, nothing showed up in the event log. However, scouting what was their turf reveals that there are still plenty of stations up and worlds are still inhabited...so, what happened?
EDIT: Apparently they got rolled up by an advanced start AI, probably via warfare. Friggin wonderful. Fallen Empires on one side and AIs with massive head starts on the other.
Post by: motorbitch on April 23, 2017, 04:21:33 pm
build a few colonies, build a few mining and research stations.
build another colony. some ai duder comes in contact with me, and immidiately declares war.
ha! i have a strong fleet, so i send all my 10 corvetes to defend the colony in dispute.
a few days later, a fleet of like 50 battleships arrive, strengh 47000.
guess at least i didnt pay. -> uninstall.
combat system is complete bullshit anyhow, and that micromanagement drove me nuts too.
making ai empires that strong that a game is doomed from the stat is just the icing on the cake.
edit, just noticed this has been talked about the previous page.
Quote
That's impressively Dwarf Fortress like, kudos to Paradox.na, thats totally not df like. in df YOU screw up. you have a chance to learn from your mistakes.
in this game, you are doomed from the start. there is nothign to learn, there is nothing to avoid. its complete bullshit and very much not df like.
Post by: Sirus on April 23, 2017, 04:31:17 pm
Started a new game after the advanced start AI blew my overmatched hive mind fleet out of space, this time as an expy of the Tau from 40k (Materialist, Xenophile, Authoritarian, with caste system slavery and the civic that starts with robot pops). Only 4 jumps away from my homeworld I discover a system called Sanctuary, which contains a freaking ringworld covered with numerous space stations. A transmission warns me to stay away from the ringworld as it is basically a zoo that has been abandoned for something like 60 million years, the animals on which have developed sapience.
I'm not quite sure how to go about this thing right now.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on April 23, 2017, 04:50:37 pm
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on April 23, 2017, 05:02:58 pm
Post by: Sirus on April 23, 2017, 05:04:59 pm
Hell, I'm so early that the pirate event just occurred. The pirate base is, predictably enough, in a system which is already loaded with privateers. I'm basically blocked from expanding that way.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 23, 2017, 05:11:32 pm
so i demoed this game (because fuck paradox) and gave it a try despite fuck paradox.
build a few colonies, build a few mining and research stations.
build another colony. some ai duder comes in contact with me, and immidiately declares war.
ha! i have a strong fleet, so i send all my 10 corvetes to defend the colony in dispute.
a few days later, a fleet of like 50 battleships arrive, strengh 47000.
guess at least i didnt pay. -> uninstall.
combat system is complete bullshit anyhow, and that micromanagement drove me nuts too.
making ai empires that strong that a game is doomed from the stat is just the icing on the cake.
edit, just noticed this has been talked about the previous page.QuoteThat's impressively Dwarf Fortress like, kudos to Paradox.na, thats totally not df like. in df YOU screw up. you have a chance to learn from your mistakes.
in this game, you are doomed from the start. there is nothign to learn, there is nothing to avoid. its complete bullshit and very much not df like.
So you're mad at Paradox because either you're bad at the game and/or the RNG fucked you over? Interesting.
Post by: TempAcc on April 23, 2017, 05:29:47 pm
Anyway ye, one can criticize the game for a lot of things, but that reasoning is kinda crazy.
Post by: kilakan on April 23, 2017, 05:33:25 pm
Post by: Sirus on April 24, 2017, 12:33:05 am
I just had a brand new scientist set on auto-explore so he could build up his skills. The idiot ran straight to Sanctuary (which is still not pacified, BTW. I'm still working up to battleships) and tried to survey the system despite the fifteen or so defense stations covering everything surveyable. He and his ship died almost instantly.
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on April 24, 2017, 12:46:43 am
It happened from Auto-survey and from a move order (to a system after then one with enemies), even when their own sensors saw the enemies :/
Post by: Biowraith on April 24, 2017, 12:50:36 am
It's a bit of annoying micromanagement, but to that end I always send out a lone corvette or constructor to all of the surrounding unexplored systems before the science ships head out, just to uncover any hostiles that are present with something expendable instead of a 5 star scientist.
Post by: Majestic7 on April 24, 2017, 01:30:50 am
This should definitely be a bug.
Post by: Innsmothe on April 24, 2017, 02:17:27 am
so i demoed this game (because fuck paradox) and gave it a try despite fuck paradox.
build a few colonies, build a few mining and research stations.
build another colony. some ai duder comes in contact with me, and immidiately declares war.
ha! i have a strong fleet, so i send all my 10 corvetes to defend the colony in dispute.
a few days later, a fleet of like 50 battleships arrive, strengh 47000.
guess at least i didnt pay. -> uninstall.
combat system is complete bullshit anyhow, and that micromanagement drove me nuts too.
making ai empires that strong that a game is doomed from the stat is just the icing on the cake.
edit, just noticed this has been talked about the previous page.QuoteThat's impressively Dwarf Fortress like, kudos to Paradox.na, thats totally not df like. in df YOU screw up. you have a chance to learn from your mistakes.
in this game, you are doomed from the start. there is nothign to learn, there is nothing to avoid. its complete bullshit and very much not df like.
I don't get why so many people don.t like paradox. I have a min. wage job with kids, the games are not expensive. =/
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 24, 2017, 06:20:16 am
I don't get why so many people don.t like paradox. I have a min. wage job with kids, the games are not expensive. =/The games are not expensive, until you factor in the whole sections of the game locked away by hundreds of quid worth of DLC
Post by: Greenbane on April 24, 2017, 08:08:43 am
I don't play Paradox games all the time, so I rarely buy anything at launch price. I'd have to be playing a specific one and have a DLC come out at the time for me to consider buying it right then. It's rare.
Post by: motorbitch on April 24, 2017, 08:55:36 am
I don't get why so many people don.t like paradox. I have a min. wage job with kids, the games are not expensive. =/its not the price. they murdered sots2, i will hate them forever. its a personal thing.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 24, 2017, 09:01:24 am
Post by: Culise on April 24, 2017, 09:05:03 am
Post by: Majestic7 on April 24, 2017, 09:08:04 am
It is a shame that SotSII went to shit but that was all on Kerberos. I think they had a critical team member fall seriously ill or something like that. I'm glad they patched the game to a working condition and I actually enjoyed playing it after the free DLC. Still, it is sort of a Game That Could Have Been had it worked otherwise.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 24, 2017, 09:12:33 am
Post by: Draignean on April 24, 2017, 10:10:50 am
I don't get why so many people don.t like paradox. I have a min. wage job with kids, the games are not expensive. =/its not the price. they murdered sots2, i will hate them forever. its a personal thing.
Believe me, I empathize. I love SotS I to death, and I've bought the complete collection for at least half a dozen people JUST so I can guilt them into playing with me. It's a damn fine game.
That said, it's not Paradox's fault that II flopped. Kerberos overextended and ended up in a situation where they could either go bankrupt or release the game in a slapdash state. For obvious reasons, they did the later. It was an unfortunate situation, but the guilt isn't with Paradox. It's sad and regrettable, but it's not a Fox and Firefly scenario.
Granted, I don't know how Paradox could publish SotS and then make Stellaris' combat, technology, and shipbuilding system without feeling a vast sense of inferiority.
Post by: Cruxador on April 24, 2017, 10:16:01 am
It's not uncommon to see people blame Paradox for pushing it to release instead of giving the developers an extra six months to a year gratis. My only thought on that is that, when Kerberos was given their six months to a year after release to clean up and patch it into a working state, including free DLC, they only at most managed to reach a state of thorough mediocrity. It's similar to people who blame them for taking East Versus West or Magna Mundi out back and putting them down like Ol' Yeller, even now that we know what state both games were in when Paradox finally pulled the plug.What state was EvW in? I remember the drama explosion when Magna Mundi was canceled, but all I remember of EvW's cancelation was a lot of people being disappointed.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 24, 2017, 01:03:17 pm
Between this and the previous page, I feel like you kind of just hate them, which likely had one hell of an impact on your willingness to play the game when you tried it out.I don't get why so many people don.t like paradox. I have a min. wage job with kids, the games are not expensive. =/its not the price. they murdered sots2, i will hate them forever. its a personal thing.
I don't buy EA games. I also don't buy Ubisoft games. I don't like getting effed over by them, so I avoid them. It's as simple as that for me.
I am considering buying Ubisoft again because they announced X4. I sure won't be pre-ordering it.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 24, 2017, 01:32:37 pm
Now, Star Ruler (the original, not the 2nd which I hate, but everyone else loves) and Distant Worlds did it right. In Star Ruler, war just goes on for ever and ever, and it's just this constant battle of roving fleets and superweapons jockeying for position and strategic advantage. Likewise, in Distant Worlds you can have tons of low-intensity warfare. Raiding. Border Skirmishes. You had the big fleet actions too, but it was more nuanced.
My two cents is that there needs to be 100x more low-intensity conflict.
Post by: da_nang on April 24, 2017, 01:57:45 pm
My two cents is that there needs to be 100x more low-intensity conflict.Little green Blorgs?
Post by: Culise on April 24, 2017, 03:27:20 pm
The game itself was...ah, unfinished would be putting it mildly. I cited those two rather than Runemaster because both EvW and Magna Mundi were actually leaked, so we know what the games looked like fairly close to the time development ended. For EvW, multiplayer was completely broken. Diplomacy and espionage were both unfinished; the AI was non-functional and peace treaties were completely broken in the former, while failure was literally not an option for the latter. Apparently, supply production (and by extension logistics) were also broken, and game crashes and other bugs abounded. I think the forum reaction regarding EvW was muted by the fact that it was starting to become expected as delays stacked up and ideas of a public buy-in beta or releasing with multiplayer removed began to float around.It's not uncommon to see people blame Paradox for pushing it to release instead of giving the developers an extra six months to a year gratis. My only thought on that is that, when Kerberos was given their six months to a year after release to clean up and patch it into a working state, including free DLC, they only at most managed to reach a state of thorough mediocrity. It's similar to people who blame them for taking East Versus West or Magna Mundi out back and putting them down like Ol' Yeller, even now that we know what state both games were in when Paradox finally pulled the plug.What state was EvW in? I remember the drama explosion when Magna Mundi was canceled, but all I remember of EvW's cancelation was a lot of people being disappointed.
Post by: Mephansteras on April 24, 2017, 03:50:16 pm
I think my biggest gripe with Stellaris is A.) how high stakes warfare is, and B.) how rarely it happens. I have only ever had the AI declare war on my nation TWICE across every game of Stellaris I've played and it was some cede half your space to me type deal both times.
Huh, I've been attacked numerous times in several play-throughs. Heck, in my current game there have been two huge galactic wars between multiple groups of empires as a single war would cause other empires to declare war on someone already involved in a war until everyone was participating in at least two conflicts. They lasted decades and often ended with limited successes on one side or another simply because everyone had too many war fronts to deal with.
It's been awesome.
Although I'd love to see more low-grade conflict like raids and the like without it having to be full-on conquest/liberation wars.
I think I've seen...maybe one war that was simply to humiliate an opponent? More of those would probably be good. Cheap warscore and destabilizes an opponent, but the AI almost never goes for it.
Post by: Sirus on April 24, 2017, 04:43:02 pm
Post by: TempAcc on April 24, 2017, 04:46:26 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on April 24, 2017, 04:59:42 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 24, 2017, 05:39:34 pm
-snippity snippity snoop-
What settings are you using? everything basically set to normal for me, but I play on the 1000 star galaxy w/ 30 empires and 4-5 fallen empires. There are wars, I'm just never part of them. I've really only ever had a massive stellar conflict once, which was legendary to be sure, but still it only happened once and after about 100-200 years that power was diminished.
Post by: Mephansteras on April 24, 2017, 08:36:41 pm
Post by: Hanzoku on April 25, 2017, 01:47:09 am
Post by: Innsmothe on April 25, 2017, 04:11:25 am
Its not as if people made this game for money or anything, I mean not even the company, but the team who also have expenses in their lives.I don't get why so many people don.t like paradox. I have a min. wage job with kids, the games are not expensive. =/The games are not expensive, until you factor in the whole sections of the game locked away by hundreds of quid worth of DLC
Game development is a seriously competitive industry, constant and reliable income is a MUST for development.
Post by: Putnam on April 25, 2017, 04:24:37 am
I don't get why so many people don.t like paradox. I have a min. wage job with kids, the games are not expensive. =/The games are not expensive, until you factor in the whole sections of the game locked away by hundreds of quid worth of DLC
>whole sections of the game locked away
is this how you imagine dlc dev (https://youtu.be/YnWbvkn2YpM?t=34)
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 25, 2017, 08:21:06 am
Post by: Retropunch on April 25, 2017, 10:16:07 am
Again, it's not the cost issue, it's the practice itself. I'm happy to pay a fair price for work, and I happily by DLC for some games (Witcher/Skyrim for example), but neither of those games locked away fast travel or whatever behind DLC. The game was complete, and DLC was extra if you want it - Paradox is making the core game DLC.
Post by: Cruxador on April 25, 2017, 11:00:56 am
The issue isn't 'We don't want to pay a fair price for game development', the problem is that Paradox (especially with Stellaris) are selling something as a full game but when you buy it, it turns out that lots of core mechanics are missing/basic, and are what amounts to placeholders for DLC. The game has been DESIGNED around DLC - which is what I dislike.It's true that it's released pretty basic, but the core gameplay upgrades tend to come for free with the updates. Like, what Stellaris DLC content do you think should be part of the core game? Or even CK2, which has been out and accruing DLC for ages?
Again, it's not the cost issue, it's the practice itself. I'm happy to pay a fair price for work, and I happily by DLC for some games (Witcher/Skyrim for example), but neither of those games locked away fast travel or whatever behind DLC. The game was complete, and DLC was extra if you want it - Paradox is making the core game DLC.
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 25, 2017, 02:26:52 pm
Well people without Utopia can still find and repair ringworlds, which were in the base game. They're adding content and not locking it behind the DLC even though they could easily have done so.
Post by: Criptfeind on April 25, 2017, 02:48:16 pm
It's true that it's released pretty basic, but the core gameplay upgrades tend to come for free with the updates. Like, what Stellaris DLC content do you think should be part of the core game? Or even CK2, which has been out and accruing DLC for ages?
Idk about stellaris, but for CK2 the ability to play different types of rulers, even if their rules are the same or slightly reflavored versions of the base rulers if you don't have their dlc, is an obvious one.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on April 25, 2017, 02:48:43 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 25, 2017, 02:52:12 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 25, 2017, 02:52:49 pm
I only played this game on release, is it worth going back to in its current state?
Mods help it a lot. Mostly the same, but much more finely tuned than vanilla with some added flavor.
Post by: Retropunch on April 25, 2017, 02:57:36 pm
Mostly though, the issue is that the game itself *needs* so many improvements and changes after launch. They're basically putting out a full price game, then hoping it does well enough that the DLC sales carry it on enough to become a decent game. CK2 managed, Stellaris probably will, HOI...maybe. It's just the whole model of 'buy it and hope we fix it, and you'll need to buy our DLC for the full experience' which I detest. I believe DLC should be for completely extra and content, not gameplay mechanics.
I only played this game on release, is it worth going back to in its current state?
Scroll back a few pages and there was a discussion about that. It's definitely different from the v1 and has been improved, but still not amazing. It's enough to dive back into though.
Post by: Cruxador on April 25, 2017, 03:02:49 pm
What? CK2 is a game called Crusader Kings, in which you can play every Christian king (or Duke or Count or even Emperor) in the base game. Playing as Muslims, Pagan chieftains, republican patricians, Mongols, or Indians are not part of the base game by design. If you look at the original Crusader Kings, none of those features were part of it even with the expansion, because it wasn't about those things and wasn't supposed to be.It's true that it's released pretty basic, but the core gameplay upgrades tend to come for free with the updates. Like, what Stellaris DLC content do you think should be part of the core game? Or even CK2, which has been out and accruing DLC for ages?
Idk about stellaris, but for CK2 the ability to play different types of rulers, even if their rules are the same or slightly reflavored versions of the base rulers if you don't have their dlc, is an obvious one.
I only played this game on release, is it worth going back to in its current state?Nah, if you're on the fence I'd wait a big longer. The biggest problems were patched in the early round of patches, and the latest update added better government and faction politics, but the game could still use a fair bit more. Probably two or three major patches before it's an exemplary game. So like a year. If you get a wild hare up your ass and want to play before then, go for it, but there's no sense in going out of your way to get hyped up otherwise.
The modding community is another thing that's not really very well developed yet.I only played this game on release, is it worth going back to in its current state?
Mods help it a lot. Mostly the same, but much more finely tuned than vanilla with some added flavor.
I'd say things like building megastructures should have been in the base game. Someone added them into a mod pretty much immediately, and it was always something that seemed like it should be there and wasn't. Without those, there's not much possibility of building vertically.To be honest, the megastructures suck anyway. If the "one at a time" thing was removed and they were fleshed out a bit, it could be nice. But they're pretty boring and worthless. And there's plenty of science fiction without them, so although they could add a lot conceptually if they were better implemented, I wouldn't call them necessary either.
Quote
This isn't just fluff - it's meaningful gameplay additions.That's not really germane. A meaningful gameplay addition isn't the same as something that's fundamental to the core gameplay, and is thus necessary for the game to be finished.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 25, 2017, 03:04:44 pm
That's a great example, though. Paradox upgraded the mechanics for those other types of rulers (mostly non-crusaders, *cough*) for *everyone*, for free. Those upgraded mechanics can be significant even in vanilla, what with vassal republics, decadence... India...It's true that it's released pretty basic, but the core gameplay upgrades tend to come for free with the updates. Like, what Stellaris DLC content do you think should be part of the core game? Or even CK2, which has been out and accruing DLC for ages?
Idk about stellaris, but for CK2 the ability to play different types of rulers, even if their rules are the same or slightly reflavored versions of the base rulers if you don't have their dlc, is an obvious one.
Buying DLC just lets us experience the new content first-hand rather than second-hand, and funds the development of more content.
There's no way CK2 could have been released in its current state, with all DLC included, as a $60 game. It's only possible because of continued funding. Whether it's cost-effective is a personal decision... Even buying during sales, I've spent a bit more than $60 over a couple years. But not that much more, and personally I'm very satisfied. That's the bottom line, really, and up to the individual.
Can't speak to Stellaris, but it sounds like it's getting better over time. Implementing suggestions from the fanbase is a major factor too... In-house playtesting only goes so far, compared to hundreds of thousands of fresh eyes.
Post by: Criptfeind on April 25, 2017, 03:16:39 pm
Post by: Persus13 on April 25, 2017, 03:33:50 pm
Most Pagan rulers weren't in the base game. They either got added by the 867 and 769 starts or were off the map initially. And the stuff that made them interesting to play as comes from the DLC or patches. Merchant Republics didn't exist before their DLC. The Indian subcontinent only was added to the map with the India DLC. Jewish rulers didn't exist until Sons of Abraham happened.
The only rulers "locked behind" DLC were Muslims, and the stuff that makes them interesting and unique to play as from Christian rulers was added by their DLC/patch four months after the game came out.
Post by: Teneb on April 25, 2017, 03:39:59 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on April 25, 2017, 03:45:17 pm
IIRC, the original plan for CK2 was to release it as it was in 1.0 and then that's it. No expansions, no nothing. But it ended up being way more popular than expected (probably because it was incredibly bug-free) and they started planning DLCs. Muslims, for example, weren't originally intended to be playable.
I'd buy this explanation, and then charitably say that the muslim ruler dlc is simply them having you pay for a bad decision they made instead of dlc whoring then. That's at least a bit better.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 25, 2017, 04:12:04 pm
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?The modding community is another thing that's not really very well developed yet.I only played this game on release, is it worth going back to in its current state?
Mods help it a lot. Mostly the same, but much more finely tuned than vanilla with some added flavor.
? ? ?But there are tons of great mods that add features and/or expand functionality to the game? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on April 25, 2017, 04:30:04 pm
Post by: Greenbane on April 25, 2017, 04:48:46 pm
Compare it to the mods in EUIV or CKII.
The mods in game presently tend to just hack at present code and include fairly minor changes, or just one or two big ones. There's nothing like CKII+ or MEIOU&T.
Just like comparisons with Distant Worlds, let's compare a 1-year-old game with those 4 or 5 years old with massive amounts of expansions, patching and mods under their belt.
Post by: Cruxador on April 25, 2017, 10:03:27 pm
No, I get it, I don't hate DLC, you don't need to sing the praises to me about how dlc can be good. Fleshing out mechanics is all well and good and fine for dlc, the free parts of the updates are also fine when taken in a vacuum. But the original locking of these rulers behind the plan to later on release them as paid content is well, exactly the sort of thing that should have been part of the core game.The leaders were locked originally because they weren't part of the plan. That's why you could never play as them in the original Crusader Kings.
IIRC, the original plan for CK2 was to release it as it was in 1.0 and then that's it. No expansions, no nothing. But it ended up being way more popular than expected (probably because it was incredibly bug-free) and they started planning DLCs. Muslims, for example, weren't originally intended to be playable.I don't know about that. Look at the older games. They probably intended to have one or two expansions if it did reasonably well. Certainly nothing like what we ended up getting, of course, but playable muslims might have happened even if CK2 hadn't taken off like it did.
Compare it to Paradox games that have been out for a while, though. Like, there are some good mods, sure. But the big stuff, the star wars and star trek overhauls, a comprehensive balance and gameplay extension mod, that stuff is still just dreams. Right now you've got a couple races, generally not even compiled into a pack, some basic gameplay modifications, and people who just throw tons of content at the game in the assumption that quantity begets quality. There are nice little gems, sure, but they remain little gems.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?The modding community is another thing that's not really very well developed yet.I only played this game on release, is it worth going back to in its current state?
Mods help it a lot. Mostly the same, but much more finely tuned than vanilla with some added flavor.
? ? ?But there are tons of great mods that add features and/or expand functionality to the game? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
Just like comparisons with Distant Worlds, let's compare a 1-year-old game with those 4 or 5 years old with massive amounts of expansions, patching and mods under their belt.I notice that you clipped out the quotestack, but if you hadn't done that, or if you'd read it before doing that, you'd notice that this disparity was the point to begin with.
Post by: Criptfeind on April 25, 2017, 10:12:32 pm
The leaders were locked originally because they weren't part of the plan. That's why you could never play as them in the original Crusader Kings.
Well, like I said, that was a bad plan that was later turned into a bad dlc policy. Honestly either way this still totally ends up in the category of things that are "DLC content that I think should be part of the core game" so it doesn't really mater what their original plan is.
Post by: Cruxador on April 25, 2017, 10:15:53 pm
Are you one of those people that think they should add fucking China next? The game is called Crusader Kings. It's about Catholics kings who crusade. Everything else is extra.The leaders were locked originally because they weren't part of the plan. That's why you could never play as them in the original Crusader Kings.
Well, like I said, that was a bad plan that was later turned into a bad dlc policy. Honestly either way this still totally ends up in the category of things that are "DLC content that I think should be part of the core game" so it doesn't really mater what their original plan is.
Post by: Criptfeind on April 25, 2017, 10:17:01 pm
Post by: Descan on April 25, 2017, 10:22:58 pm
That said, when CK2 came out, they hadn't fleshed out the DLC plan just yet. Not to say they weren't heading that way, and that the writing was on the wall, but it's a stretch to imagine they knowingly didn't put in any mechanics for non Christian kings because of it.
Vanilla CK2 came with only Christians because Crusader Kings 1 had only christians playable; They broadened and built on the original blueprints they were given, but didn't add on entirely new pieces of blue paper, to stretch the metaphor.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 26, 2017, 12:28:47 am
But the big stuff, the star wars and star trek overhauls, a comprehensive balance and gameplay extension mod, that stuff is still just dreams. Right now you've got a couple races, generally not even compiled into a pack, some basic gameplay modifications, and people who just throw tons of content at the game in the assumption that quantity begets quality.
Star Trek New Horizons is quite playable, though at present the restricted weapon choice is problematic compared to normal Stellaris. In STNH weapons are restricted by nation, so as a particular race you can't use other races' weapons, which means you're restricted to the weapon properties of your nation's weapons and can't specialize to defeat particular ship types.
Compare Star Trek Online: You can use any weapon type on your ships (meaning phasers, disruptors, plasma, antiproton, etc), regardless of whether you are Federation, Romulan, or Klingon.
Post by: Ultimuh on May 09, 2017, 08:42:33 am
Along with the "Creatures of the Void" (http://store.steampowered.com/app/633310/Stellaris_Anniversary_Portraits/) portrait pack, for free!
(Plus 3 entirely new portraits, which are included in the DLC.)
Post by: Ultimuh on May 09, 2017, 09:19:21 am
Is it located in that list somewhere? If not, try verifying your game?
Post by: Scripten on May 09, 2017, 10:12:33 am
My first game, which I've only played for about two hours, consists of me, the despotic, autocratic, militaristic fungus, surrounded by at least three different kinds of insects, all of which hate me. Of course, with the update out, I'm not sure if I can continue with that save, which is a bit of a bummer.
Post by: lastverb on May 09, 2017, 10:14:15 am
https://www.humblebundle.com/monthly
edit: looks like someone posted this when i was writing
Post by: Majestic7 on May 09, 2017, 10:59:48 am
Post by: Donuts on May 09, 2017, 11:28:46 am
Seriously, even the tiniest bugfixes seem to mess up my save files completely.
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 09, 2017, 12:37:34 pm
I'm thinking of buying the game, but from what I've read the mid-to-late game can be hollow in vanilla. Is this DLC practically essential in order to fix this, or has it been more or less fixed with the free patch content?
Post by: Majestic7 on May 09, 2017, 01:12:42 pm
Re: utopia, it adds megastructures, space habitats, species rights & privileges, hive minds, ascension perks, some civics and detailed purge/slavery types.
Post by: Mini on May 09, 2017, 01:13:03 pm
Quote from: https://www.paradoxplaza.com/stellaris-utopia
I have no
- Megastructures: Build wondrous structures in your systems including Dyson Spheres and ring worlds, bringing both prestige and major advantages to your race.
- Habitat Stations: Build tall and establish space stations that will house more population, serving the role of planets in a small and confined empire.
- Rights and Privileges: Set specific policies for which of the many species under your thumb will have the rights and privileges of full citizenship.
- Ascension Perks: Collect Unity points and adopt Traditions to unlock Ascension Perks that allow you to customize your empire in unique ways. Follow one of the three Ascension Paths and achieve Biological Mastery, give up your biological forms in a Synthetic Evolution, or unlock the full psionic potential of your species through Transcendance.
- Indoctrination: Influence primitive civilizations and make them adopt your ethics through the use of observation stations, preparing them for enlightenment or annexation.
- Advanced Slavery: Maximize the benefits of slavery by choosing specific roles for enthralled species. Have them serve other Pops as Domestic Servants, fight for your empire as Battle Thralls, or keep them as Livestock to feed your people.
- Advanced Governments: Adopt unique civics and authorities for your government. Play as a Fanatic Purifier and shun all diplomacy, become a Hive Mind to avoid political strife or create a multi-species empire born of Syncretic Evolution.
Post by: Neonivek on May 09, 2017, 01:51:13 pm
Quote
Megastructures: Build wondrous structures in your systems including Dyson Spheres and ring worlds, bringing both prestige and major advantages to your race.
Habitat Stations: Build tall and establish space stations that will house more population, serving the role of planets in a small and confined empire.
Disappointed that these end up being... Extremely pointless... In fact Habitat Stations end up detrimental due to how this game handles research and Unity.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on May 09, 2017, 02:08:58 pm
Quote
* It is now possible for Fanatic Xenophobe Spiritualists to be Fanatic Purifiers
All will join the Unity, in time.
Post by: Persus13 on May 09, 2017, 02:23:18 pm
So the portraits seem buggy.Paradox having problems with free DLC on launch seems pretty normal.
I want to DL, but Steam instead launches the game when I try. Not unusual if the DLC's installed, except it's not (unless that's only CotV, and the other portraits are in the base game now)
Also it launched the game for me too, but it also downloaded the DLC.
Post by: Neonivek on May 09, 2017, 03:58:47 pm
If you didn't dedicate habitats then it was pointless.Quote•Megastructures: Build wondrous structures in your systems including Dyson Spheres and ring worlds, bringing both prestige and major advantages to your race.
•Habitat Stations: Build “tall” and establish space stations that will house more population, serving the role of planets in a small and confined empire.
Disappointed that these end up being... Extremely pointless... In fact Habitat Stations end up detrimental due to how this game handles research and Unity.
If you did, they were powerful research/energy producers. Food and minerals are pretty eh though.
They count as their own planet. So their research essentially creates parity
Plus the whole Unity penalty occurs either way.
To admit it isn't the worst though.
Post by: Ultimuh on May 09, 2017, 04:18:59 pm
Apologies for my lazy arse, as I'm sure this has been asked many times already - can someone give me a quick breakdown of what does the Utopia DLC give you as compared to the free patch that was released with it? I get there are those megastructures, but what else?You get to actually build Megastructures. The 1.5 Patch doesn't do that.
I'm thinking of buying the game, but from what I've read the mid-to-late game can be hollow in vanilla. Is this DLC practically essential in order to fix this, or has it been more or less fixed with the free patch content?
The Hive Mind Ethic is is open for use by the player, plus its own exclusive civics.
You can also choose several Ascension Perks with the DLC. What that means.. Might as well just google it.
And other minor things.
Post by: Teneb on May 09, 2017, 04:41:13 pm
You can also choose several Ascension Perks with the DLC. What that means.. Might as well just google it.I think the only exclusive ascension perks are the megastructure and the 3 actual ascensions (synth, bio, not!warp).
Post by: Neonivek on May 09, 2017, 04:44:11 pm
You can also choose several Ascension Perks with the DLC. What that means.. Might as well just google it.I think the only exclusive ascension perks are the megastructure and the 3 actual ascensions (synth, bio, not!warp).
None of the Perks are exclusive to my knowledge.
TECHNICALLY not even Synth, Bio, and Psionic...
Just that... Level 2 Synth's ability contradicts Bio's and I THINK Psionic's (for obvious reasons). Mind you... Level 1 synth mixes well.
Post by: Smitehappy on May 09, 2017, 04:48:27 pm
If you didn't dedicate habitats then it was pointless.QuoteMegastructures: Build wondrous structures in your systems including Dyson Spheres and ring worlds, bringing both prestige and major advantages to your race.
Habitat Stations: Build tall and establish space stations that will house more population, serving the role of planets in a small and confined empire.
Disappointed that these end up being... Extremely pointless... In fact Habitat Stations end up detrimental due to how this game handles research and Unity.
If you did, they were powerful research/energy producers. Food and minerals are pretty eh though.
They count as their own planet. So their research essentially creates parity
Plus the whole Unity penalty occurs either way.
To admit it isn't the worst though.
The number of pops/colonies you have is irrelevant to research speed as long as you keep the same ratio of research producing structures/tiles. Since orbital habitats have superior research labs, dedicating the pop there solely to research is actually a net gain in research speed. A nice, practical option when you've run out of 20+ tile planets in your borders.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 06:05:56 pm
Post by: Teneb on May 09, 2017, 06:43:38 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on May 09, 2017, 06:56:57 pm
Okay, there's been some confusion. I mean exclusive as in: exclusive to owners of Utopia, with other perks being for everyone. But I forget if that is actually the case.Yeah, I have Utopia and I may or may not be wrong about Ascension Perks?
I am not completely sure about all of what's exclusive to the Utopia DLC.
I just posted what I think I understood from Utoipia's Steam Store page.
Post by: Descan on May 10, 2017, 01:47:28 am
I got both "Creatures of the Void" and the "Anniversary Portraits" on mine. :vThe Abrabs update (1.6) is released (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/adams-update-1-6-released.1020237/)So the portraits seem buggy.
Along with the "Creatures of the Void" (http://store.steampowered.com/app/633310/Stellaris_Anniversary_Portraits/) portrait pack, for free!
(Plus 3 entirely new portraits, which are included in the DLC.)
I want to DL, but Steam instead launches the game when I try. Not unusual if the DLC's installed, except it's not (unless that's only CotV, and the other portraits are in the base game now)
Try launching the game and see if you have the portraits when making an empire though, eh? Best way to check.
Post by: Neonivek on May 10, 2017, 09:44:38 am
I'm almost 100% sure that biological, synth, and psionic ascension perks are completely mutual exclusive. If you pick the first psionic perk then you can't do any of the biological or synthetic ascension perks.
That confusion is because the Dev's notes specifically state that they are mutually exclusive.
But the game doesn't lock you out of the paths so all that is left is which ones are compatible with which. The only one that is flat out incompatible is the second level of Synth (I mean... you could get both levels of all three... but it would be pointless to do Synth's level 2)
Post by: JacenHanLovesLegos on May 10, 2017, 09:47:38 am
Okay, there's been some confusion. I mean exclusive as in: exclusive to owners of Utopia, with other perks being for everyone. But I forget if that is actually the case.I haven't bought Utopia yet, and I have no ascension perks of any kind.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on May 10, 2017, 12:30:39 pm
Post by: Neonivek on May 10, 2017, 06:57:02 pm
You cannot get Mind over Matter and also pick the Biological or Synthetic perks. The requirements for bio/synths include "Must not have Mind over Matter".
There are two levels of all of those, you need to be more specific.
Post by: Tiruin on May 10, 2017, 10:30:51 pm
There's an AWESOME mod that lets you pick the first tiers or all tiers (there are separate mods under the same author for both) that work in 1.6 despite being still in 1.5.1 :DYou cannot get Mind over Matter and also pick the Biological or Synthetic perks. The requirements for bio/synths include "Must not have Mind over Matter".
There are two levels of all of those, you need to be more specific.
Although there may be some incompatibilities for Hiveminds and robots and such.
From my experience, I went Bio. I can't get any Synthetic or even touch the Psionic :OYou cannot get Mind over Matter and also pick the Biological or Synthetic perks. The requirements for bio/synths include "Must not have Mind over Matter".
There are two levels of all of those, you need to be more specific.
Until this patch and now have to refresh all my info and knowledge once more. I do however believe that the requirements have been changed too, lately. It may be my fuzzy memory but it was mentioned in the changelogs.
...I thought carrier/fighters/bombers were edited this 1.6 though? I can't find any mention of them anywhere. :(
Post by: Neonivek on May 10, 2017, 10:32:08 pm
Post by: Tiruin on May 10, 2017, 10:43:30 pm
Ahh so it was updated.And on the day and the next few hours, many, many mods were updated too!
...Because somehow even if the version # gives a red triangle, it doesn't necessarily mean that there's a conflict, somehow. o_O Which partly explained most of that quick updates--and the authors being active.
Like the patch notes didn't seem to touch combat at all, as my hazy memory says. It did touch the Enigmatic Fortress rewards though! (so anything with guardians) I've seen a mod that reverts the change but a strange comment hinted there were 'other ways that didn't include overriding the file' so...maybe people have to do some exploring to find out :P [the EF was changed to give 'one RANDOM reward' instead of the full set...as far as was written]
Post by: Putnam on May 10, 2017, 10:58:42 pm
Ahh so it was updated.And on the day and the next few hours, many, many mods were updated too!
...Because somehow even if the version # gives a red triangle, it doesn't necessarily mean that there's a conflict, somehow. o_O
It's much, much simpler and computationally less expensive to just have modders set the minimum and maximum working versions of their mods and show a warning if the current version of the game does not fit within this range. It's how paradox games do it, at least.
Post by: AlStar on May 10, 2017, 11:38:26 pm
Anyway, like (I assume) many other people, I recently got this game because it was the headliner for this month's Humble Monthly. I note that the older DLC (Plantoids and Leviathans) are currently on sale. My question is: are any of the DLC considered to be "must-haves"? Or can I do just fine with just the base game?
Post by: Majestic7 on May 11, 2017, 12:21:01 am
Utopia adds stuff that makes the game feel more whole, so that is a bigger thing to get. If you've read pages here discussing ascension perks, megastructures and species rights - those are all utopia stuff.
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on May 11, 2017, 12:48:56 am
About Leviathans, I'm not sure how much it brings to the game. I got it in a pack when I came back for the 1.4 version, and I think the space monsters don't change much, but Enclaves are cool. Not game changing, but cool.
About Utopia, I think it's nearly necessary to have interesting games. It improves the mid-late game with Ascension Perks that let you change your species along one of the 3 paths (becoming sentient robots, genetically mutants, or telepathic Psionics) or using giant structures : simple Habitats orbiting planets that let you have hand-made planets with specific buildings, or more complex mega structures (Ringworlds like the one the fallen Empires have, Dyson Spheres to get a great Energy income, or others).
There were mods that added some mega structures before, but of course, most will get abandoned, while better mods will use the DLC (and I would recommend using some to balance the existing mega structures).
Post by: Retropunch on May 11, 2017, 05:11:40 am
IIRC, it also added the 'War in Heaven' feature, which allows fallen empires to go to war with each other - that's pretty fun, but depends how much you enjoy 'game changing events'.
I'd recommend it if it's on a very heavy sale, just because Stellaris needs all the additional mechanics it can get, but it's definitely not needed to enjoy.
Post by: Cruxador on May 11, 2017, 10:40:57 am
IIRC, it also added the 'War in Heaven' feature, which allows fallen empires to go to war with each other - that's pretty fun, but depends how much you enjoy 'game changing events'.It's also super rare though. Don't buy the DLC just for this.
Post by: Retropunch on May 11, 2017, 11:11:44 am
IIRC, it also added the 'War in Heaven' feature, which allows fallen empires to go to war with each other - that's pretty fun, but depends how much you enjoy 'game changing events'.It's also super rare though. Don't buy the DLC just for this.
Agreed, it sounds a lot cooler than it is as well.
Post by: Paul on May 15, 2017, 11:44:36 am
I started a new game with it and nobody in the whole galaxy is fighting. Hard difficulty, high aggressiveness. No wars anywhere. Even the fanatical purifier who started right next to me never attacked me, despite us being rivals for years and him having a superior fleet for most of the early years. I started as a xenophobic fanatic pacifist for an early game unity and core systems boost (which worked pretty well, 75 years in and I have genetic resequencing, and 22 planets fully populated and well developed), but I was expecting at least some war from my neighbors.
Now the galaxy has just stagnated. No empires ever got wiped out, nothing has really happened - just a bunch of little empires expanded out to the limits of their borders and just sitting there with 6-10 colonies each.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 15, 2017, 11:46:50 am
Post by: Wiles on May 15, 2017, 12:14:14 pm
Post by: Cruxador on May 15, 2017, 12:33:21 pm
Post by: Descan on May 15, 2017, 12:41:13 pm
no the issue was the AI didn't calculate superiority correctly, so *everything* was considered "too stronk," even if it were an objectively weaker empire, so they never went to war. That just increased pacifism attaction as a side effect. the pacifism faction and faction switching was more-or-less working correctly, though the devs did lower the strength anyway.
Post by: Paul on May 15, 2017, 02:15:33 pm
Those poor bird people are now being purged by the fanatic purifiers. Took like two days for them to declare war and about a month before they had conquered them, lol.
Will have to make a new game to get a real challenge since the empires all stagnated while I grew, but it's an interesting exercise in what would happen if you had a 75 year armistice at the beginning of the game lol...
I had to abandon that colony I had settled next to the FE. Their 90k fleet swooped in and rather than try to beat it with my 40k fleet and leave myself vulnerable to the fanatic purifiers next door I decided to just give into their demands, which was just to demolish the colony (and kill my ruler, who was like 105 anyway).
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 16, 2017, 01:52:50 am
Post by: Ultimuh on May 16, 2017, 09:11:44 am
Also, the beta seem to have a very peculiar arthropoid portrait.
I know exactly what sort of empire I shall make with it. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7eimQE47wM)
edit: Can't seem to get the image right (link too long). But its on the same page in the Paradox Forum link I posted.
Post by: Cruxador on May 16, 2017, 10:45:57 am
Post by: Wiles on May 16, 2017, 10:58:01 am
My first reaction is "who cares?" Paradox games suck for multi-player anyway.
I think in this case it really depends on the people you play with, if you have a group or even just another person to play with Stellaris is pretty good in multiplayer. It's not a game you're going to finish in one session, but if you play with the same people regularly that is not usually an issue.
Post by: Mephansteras on May 16, 2017, 12:07:07 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on May 16, 2017, 01:37:19 pm
Spoiler: Spoilered because the new portrait is kinda big. (click to show/hide)
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 16, 2017, 01:50:47 pm
Post by: Descan on May 16, 2017, 01:59:23 pm
Post by: Cruxador on May 16, 2017, 02:02:59 pm
Playing with the same people regularly can be kind of tough in itself, and even if you do get a regular game, then what? There's not a strong interaction between players anyways half the time, and so you're stuck having to deal with scheduling and make compromises on game speed, even in the theoretical case that that Paradox irons out all the technical troubles. If it works for you personally, great, but in general it's just not a great game for a multiplayer experience.My first reaction is "who cares?" Paradox games suck for multi-player anyway.
I think in this case it really depends on the people you play with, if you have a group or even just another person to play with Stellaris is pretty good in multiplayer. It's not a game you're going to finish in one session, but if you play with the same people regularly that is not usually an issue.
Post by: Sirus on May 16, 2017, 03:04:23 pm
That said, an entire species of Mantis Shrimp Men would be pretty sweet.
Post by: Wysthric on May 16, 2017, 03:35:24 pm
Me, I compulsively pause every time something pops up. I'd go insane trying to play multiplayer.
That said, an entire species of Mantis Shrimp Men would be pretty sweet.
My friend does this, but we play on Fast most of the time and Normal if we're at war so it's pretty good. Personally, I find just me and my friend co-oping very fun.
Post by: Retropunch on May 17, 2017, 09:44:07 am
Now that I'm comfortable with Stellaris, I can put it on max speed for a good 15 minutes at a time, but other times I need it on regular or pause if a situation arises.
Post by: Greiger on May 17, 2017, 01:12:49 pm
(https://i.img.ie/04w.th.jpg) (https://img.ie/image/04w)(https://i.img.ie/04t.th.jpg) (https://img.ie/image/04t)
Because of this I am not inspired to create a race of adorable cute and cuddly faerie dragons that are great allies to their friends and EAT THEIR ENEMIES CORPSES! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9XbDIJRLuQ)
Post by: GiglameshDespair on May 17, 2017, 01:15:40 pm
I'm unconvinced its a reference at all to HotS. It's much too different.
Post by: Greiger on May 17, 2017, 01:36:37 pm
Post by: umiman on May 17, 2017, 01:49:38 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Egan_BW on May 17, 2017, 03:36:45 pm
Post by: Mini on May 17, 2017, 11:16:59 pm
Someone at Paradox clearly plays Heroes of the storm. That Farie dragon portrait is like a realistic legally distinct version of the character brightwing. I mean the colors are spot on.Fey dragons have been around far longer than HotS.
(https://i.img.ie/04w.th.jpg) (https://img.ie/image/04w)(https://i.img.ie/04t.th.jpg) (https://img.ie/image/04t)
Because of this I am not inspired to create a race of adorable cute and cuddly faerie dragons that are great allies to their friends and EAT THEIR ENEMIES CORPSES! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9XbDIJRLuQ)
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on May 18, 2017, 12:23:07 am
Fey dragons have been around far longer than HotS.I think that's the point of every hero of HotS :)
Post by: Descan on May 18, 2017, 12:35:01 pm
Post by: Draignean on May 18, 2017, 12:49:40 pm
For one thing, they were in Warcraft 3.
I'm going to beat someone to death with a monster manual II.
Post by: Descan on May 18, 2017, 12:57:45 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on May 18, 2017, 03:05:13 pm
Post by: Cruxador on May 18, 2017, 05:46:42 pm
Now I want to name a monster Manuel the second.Monster Manuel the Second, purveyor of fine beasts and abominations.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 18, 2017, 06:22:03 pm
So the HoS character is a copyright friendly clone of a character that existed over a decade prior, and *that* character is heavily based on sound and art assets from the same company (but different team) than made HoS. I guess blizzard came in to steal back a tiny slice of the genre they accidentally helped create.
Edit: WTF and this is the Stellaris thread, how did we get here
Post by: Rolan7 on May 18, 2017, 07:27:56 pm
Spoiler: Off topic Blizzard nerdrage (click to show/hide)
Post by: Egan_BW on May 18, 2017, 07:32:20 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on May 22, 2017, 05:50:33 pm
Spoiler: Off topic Blizzard nerdrage (click to show/hide)
As a Games Workshop fan, this is one of my favorite strips from PA.
Post by: Majestic7 on May 23, 2017, 02:49:10 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 23, 2017, 07:38:49 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 23, 2017, 08:11:48 am
That's not to say that democracies are terrible or anything. Just that different stratigies and playstyles exist. Some of which look at +250 influence and think 'I could use something else'.
Post by: Draignean on May 23, 2017, 08:41:10 am
That's when I 'discovered' planetary scale edicts.
Also, drugging the shit out of the fanatic purifier race you just conquered is a valid strategy to discourage revolt.
Also, also, WHY CAN I NOT PURGE AND ENSLAVE THE PEOPLE I JUST CONQUERED AND THREW IN A SECTOR? WHY?!
Post by: Descan on May 23, 2017, 09:08:29 am
Unless you mean "Why can't I set the rights for this species to slavery?" in which case, read the tooltip, it'll tell you what is blocking your enslaving policy. Alien Abraham Lincoln and all that, what-what.
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 23, 2017, 10:03:29 am
Most people I've talked to (including myself) don't have much use for influence. It basically stays maxed for most of the game, except perhaps at the very end when you're spamming habitats everywhere. As such they'd prefer the various boosts from agendas instead of +2.0~ influence each month.What, you don't build outpost? That much extra influence lets you expand like crazy.
It kinda seems bugged, though. The mandate screen shows something like 80-160 inf for fulfilling, but I always get 250. And are there even any other mandates than build more mines/research stations? 'Cause these are the only ones I ever get.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on May 23, 2017, 01:55:56 pm
IIRC you USED to get varying amounts of influence. They probably forgot to update it.Most people I've talked to (including myself) don't have much use for influence. It basically stays maxed for most of the game, except perhaps at the very end when you're spamming habitats everywhere. As such they'd prefer the various boosts from agendas instead of +2.0~ influence each month.What, you don't build outpost? That much extra influence lets you expand like crazy.
It kinda seems bugged, though. The mandate screen shows something like 80-160 inf for fulfilling, but I always get 250. And are there even any other mandates than build more mines/research stations? 'Cause these are the only ones I ever get.
Outpost my ass, there are edicts that give you 20% more food/unity/all kinds of stuff.
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on May 23, 2017, 02:38:04 pm
Outpost my ass, there are edicts that give you 20% more food/unity/all kinds of stuff.Per planet. Except when I get a planet with really weird modifiers, I usually don't find it useful. I mean, I could spend 50-120 influence to get +5-10 mineral income for 10 years. yay.
I feel like the edicts basically don't mater, except when you make a build for them (with civics and modded traditions).
I prefer to recruit many governors, until I get some with nice bonuses (Intellectual for my sectors because they boost the research stations, and cheap builders for my new colonies).
Post by: Dunamisdeos on May 23, 2017, 03:27:11 pm
In the early phases where I have 3-4 planets, it's invaluable.
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 23, 2017, 03:38:54 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on May 23, 2017, 03:41:26 pm
Post by: Descan on May 23, 2017, 04:11:50 pm
Post by: Draignean on May 23, 2017, 04:16:58 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 23, 2017, 04:18:20 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on May 23, 2017, 10:06:33 pm
I just really wish there was a notification when they end, or a way to auto-renew
This. They're useful, but kind of annoyingly set up right now.
Post by: Paul on May 24, 2017, 12:02:39 pm
Turns out it's because they randomly terraform their worlds back and forth as soon as they unlock the tech for it. The empire I'm fighting right now was an arctic race. They've terraformed their homeworld to arid and it's half empty with the pops moving away. I checked another neighbor race and they changed their homeworld from ocean to alpine.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 24, 2017, 12:13:23 pm
I had so much fun shortening the lifespan of my Divine Rulers in order to turn a pristine world into an entombed world, populated by billions of starving pilgrims maintaining the generations of divine galactic rulers buried upon layers of layers of mausoleums :[
Post by: Paul on May 24, 2017, 03:47:24 pm
Before the ally even gets his ships over to help I crush the attacker's fleet and capture his homeworld. The ally's fleet showed up and is 60k, fielding jump drives and giga cannons and other top tier tech, to my remaining 40k. The attacker offers peace. His concession? I can make his ally my tributary.
So now his ally is my tributary despite having a fleet 50% bigger than mine and never even having faced off in battle.
The AI sure do like throwing their buddies under the bus.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 24, 2017, 03:50:22 pm
No wonder their most popular series is the one where wars have only 4 possible outcomes and 3 of them are always the same.
Post by: Draignean on May 24, 2017, 03:58:31 pm
You've issued a diplomatic insult? Let me adjust that attitude of yours...
Again, my basis for 4x is SoTS, which has second-to-none battle-scale tactics and ship design, but is a bit sub par on the diplomacy front, so I'm hard to please with combat but easy to please on diplomacy.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 24, 2017, 04:14:03 pm
Anyway, I think that's what a lot of the early complaints about Stellaris were that it got stale fast. People were coming from the CK/EU/Vicky perspective where you might live with your neighbors for 300+ years, and at the end of it still possibly have interesting interactions with them. But on release at least you would very quickly consume/federate/permanently be at good relations with your neighbors and then the politics were pretty empty after that.
Post by: Neonivek on May 24, 2017, 04:26:19 pm
Quote
CK2 is the only game that really showed how political needs change with each generation, and it had a pretty good system for new nations emerging, but its also snowbally as fuck so that kinda hurts it
Crusader Kings 2's biggest asset is that it isn't trying to be a game you "beat" so to speak. Well ignoring its score system, but then again IMO they should just remove the score system entirely, or at least remove all features that are "score only" (So instead of "You get more score" it has other effects).
Honestly if it had FAAAAAR better simulation aspects in terms of being able to handle people... I'd be playing Crusader Kings 2 right now. Heck I'd probably say it was one of the best games ever made in spite of its other faults.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 24, 2017, 05:36:00 pm
Oh god, when you put it like that I realize just how unrealistic all of Paradox's peace negotiation systems are.In EU4 I once did a Byzantium run where I completely steamrolled Greece and the Balkans, recapturing a lot of the Ottoman Byzantine cores, causing a massive coalition to form against me. The coalition declared war upon me, yet because the Ottoman Empire was warning the country which started the coalition war, the Ottomans were now fighting on the same side as me, trying to defend me from people who wanted to return their cores. Utterly crushed, I resolved the war by giving away all of the Ottoman's most important lands to insignificant nations and destroyed their Empire, allowing me to annex the rest of them in a subsequent war.
No wonder their most popular series is the one where wars have only 4 possible outcomes and 3 of them are always the same.
This is acceptable
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on May 24, 2017, 09:43:33 pm
Honestly if it had FAAAAAR better simulation aspects in terms of being able to handle people... I'd be playing Crusader Kings 2 right now. Heck I'd probably say it was one of the best games ever made in spite of its other faults.
Thou art cruising for yon bruising with that manner of comment.
No its true. One of the things that makes Paradox games great is that the map can exist as something other than RISK because you don't get land permanently just because you militarily occupied it. In total war games for example everything is naturally moving towards one faction conquering the world, because war inevitably results in large land gains for one side. Not true of most Paradox games. One of the weaknesses that prevents things from staying completely interesting in Paradox games is that they can't simulate new nations emerging, and they also rather fail at the realpolitik "yesterday's enemies are tomorrow's friends." So things get stale over time, but because of the peace negotiations system every game has things take a lot longer to get stale. CK2 is the only game that really showed how political needs change with each generation, and it had a pretty good system for new nations emerging, but its also snowbally as fuck so that kinda hurts it.
Anyway, I think that's what a lot of the early complaints about Stellaris were that it got stale fast. People were coming from the CK/EU/Vicky perspective where you might live with your neighbors for 300+ years, and at the end of it still possibly have interesting interactions with them. But on release at least you would very quickly consume/federate/permanently be at good relations with your neighbors and then the politics were pretty empty after that.
Stellaris is just very flat. While they're adding more content, it's hasn't been the much-needed additional mechanics. For example, instead of adding a billion events to fill up our time, why not make managing a stellar empire more time intensive? Let's get a better economy, more in-depth governor/vassal system, and just more micromanagement stuff going on (with the option to automate what we can't handle.)
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 24, 2017, 10:17:24 pm
Actually what I'd really want to see (what I've been waiting for any strategy game to give me) is to have a superpower system where superpowers woo smaller powers into alignment with offers and threats while smaller powers try to play coy until they can find an offer that gives them what they want. And then if two aligned little guys fight you have a proxy war that can escalate into the two superpowers outright declaring war. *chants* space cold war, space cold war
Post by: Descan on May 25, 2017, 09:35:09 am
That achievement is where a non-founder-species leader becomes the ruler of your nation.
The leader in question was a penguin from a primitive Machine society that I abducted; after that, every election he was the only leader on the ballet and had 100% support (I think it was a bug, or something.)
My race of fanatically purging lizardbugs only stopped being given a North Korean-style election of a primitive penguin once I turned synth; he turned into a Cylenth the same with everyone else, so I guess that fixed the buggy situation and he was just one of many to be chosen.
(Fuck, I should have named my guys the "Cynnth." Their original name was Cynn, so...)
Post by: AlStar on May 25, 2017, 09:51:55 am
Maybe he was just the mascot for the shadowy lizardbug council that was really running things in the background.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 25, 2017, 10:02:34 am
It's as realistic as France getting steamrolled by Germany, and giving up the UK in its peace dealThe AI sure do like throwing their buddies under the bus.Not entirely unrealistic, though. There have been a few instances where peace agreements were basically "Yeah, you can take that guy's land, but don't take ours."
Doesn't make sense for you to be able to give up an ally that hasn't been defeated, when they'd likely object to having enemy administrators just take them over without a fight
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 31, 2017, 06:30:57 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 01, 2017, 09:14:10 am
Well, yeah. Usually it's a case of "Hey, those guys have basically no army. Go nuts, we won't help them."To be fair Finlanding a country's ally is a bit different from long-distance Polanding
Also messing with planet/ship scaling is fun
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
leviathan aesthetic
Just need to increase the collision radius for ships and it'll be all set. Might also increase the range of kinetic artillery so that maximum dakka battleships become viable
Post by: GiglameshDespair on June 01, 2017, 09:15:03 am
They're still under my dominion. Why do only Vassals count?
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 01, 2017, 09:21:36 am
Post by: GiglameshDespair on June 01, 2017, 09:59:40 am
Certainly, I can get around it - release them and then wait until the timer ticks along enough years I can declare war again. It's not difficult, but it's me just sitting and waiting until I'll allowed to kick their teeth in.
Post by: Teneb on June 02, 2017, 05:25:11 am
Spoiler: Ah yes, "Reapers". We have dismissed such claims. (click to show/hide)
Post by: Majestic7 on June 02, 2017, 05:57:31 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 02, 2017, 12:01:01 pm
The only exception to the infinite cycle is a certain new endgame crisis I've been spoiled on, which is implied to render at least a portion of the galaxy uninhabitable forever.
Post by: Draignean on June 02, 2017, 12:52:53 pm
The story in Stellaris is about an infinite cycle. Even if you "win" eventually you'll stagnate, die, or intentionally leave normal life behind. The purpose of the precursors and FEs is to show that this has already happened, the purpose of the endgame crisis and ascension techs is to show how a powerful empire such as a lategame player could end eventually.DO NOT DO THIS
The only exception to the infinite cycle is a certain new endgame crisis I've been spoiled on, which is implied to render at least a portion of the galaxy uninhabitable forever.
Post by: Egan_BW on June 02, 2017, 03:51:44 pm
Post by: Sirus on June 02, 2017, 04:41:16 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on June 02, 2017, 05:10:12 pm
Post by: Hanzoku on June 02, 2017, 05:35:45 pm
Post by: Paul on June 02, 2017, 06:34:00 pm
If you're playing 1.61, the holy worlds will soon be returned to their pristine non-colonized state, your leader will be dead, and your fleets/spaceport demolished in short order. Unless you surrender, then it's just your leader and the populations on the holy worlds.
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on June 09, 2017, 02:17:06 pm
Post by: Baffler on June 09, 2017, 02:45:16 pm
Any idea as to why Living Systems mod ships appear as unidentified xenos?
They use the built-in civilian ships used by the pirates and a few other events, and you can't look at the designs for those for whatever reason just like you can't with the Tiyanki or Void Clouds. If you mean that they're called "lambda aliens" or whatever, and you have a special project to translate their language, that's a rare bug.
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 11, 2017, 08:11:56 pm
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[Flight of the valkyries intensifies]
So yeah this planet got invaded by around three hundredish clone legions with 50 psi trooper legions and one shroud avatar
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Post by: Cruxador on June 11, 2017, 10:11:22 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 12, 2017, 03:21:10 am
Post by: Hanzoku on June 12, 2017, 04:28:10 am
If you're playing 1.60, they will never attack you. Nobody will ever attack anyone.
If you're playing 1.61, the holy worlds will soon be returned to their pristine non-colonized state, your leader will be dead, and your fleets/spaceport demolished in short order. Unless you surrender, then it's just your leader and the populations on the holy worlds.
Yeah, I figured that out, patched up and started a new game. I was also having less fun then expected with my xenophobic human empire, mostly because it also seemed to be locking me out of any diplomacy. Everyone being peaceful forever aside, all my neighbors had united into a giant federation... and I was the only one not in it.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 12, 2017, 08:44:03 am
Is it just me, or is this game pretty dead? Seems like the interest went away as soon as they decided to work on multiplayer instead of features.
Stellaris follows the typical Paradox cycle: hemorrhage players between patch cycles. You might see 30k concurrent online again in the next expansion release. For now I doubt it gets much over 15k again, and in a month they'll be lucky to see that many.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 12, 2017, 01:51:54 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 12, 2017, 05:07:20 pm
Is it just me, or is this game pretty dead? Seems like the interest went away as soon as they decided to work on multiplayer instead of features.I actually kind of hate Paradox multiplayer.
Its not even the style. I've played Defcom and Civilizations MP, so I'm fine with long games and I'm fine with real-time-with-pause. What I hate is two things. The first is that AI controlled actors have such a huge effect on the game, that's bad news for a multiplayer game (and unlike civ or defcom its not easy to have a satisfying game without the AI). But the bigger problem is the arbitrary nature of alliances. In civilizations and, say, Dominions, there is that cutthroat boardgame alliance making. But its balanced against the fact that in those games there's an explicit winner and there can be only one. So all alliances naturally favor their most powerful member and everyone knows that and thus has a reason to break the alliance (from a strictly trying to win standpoint). But in Paradox games nothing is stopping a few players from allying, deathblobbing everything, and then just declaring "hey peeps we won, eternal peace for all!" The best case scenario for the average 20 player Paradox MP game is to have 2 competing alliances of equal size, the worst case scenario is something like the near release Stellaris MP stream where it was literally just everyone joining the same alliance. I dunno, it just seems like SP ARRs are a lot more interesting than the MP ones.
Post by: Persus13 on June 13, 2017, 07:09:38 am
Its also fun having two people run the same country together.
Post by: Draignean on June 13, 2017, 08:40:55 am
2. Play race with democratic government.
3. Switch players every time a new leader is elected.
4. Complain bitterly about what a shitshow the old leader left you.
Post by: Xardalas on June 13, 2017, 11:44:32 am
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on June 13, 2017, 03:44:31 pm
Yes.Any idea as to why Living Systems mod ships appear as unidentified xenos?If you mean that they're called "lambda aliens" or whatever, and you have a special project to translate their language, that's a rare bug.
Post by: PTTG?? on June 13, 2017, 03:49:36 pm
Actually, you could do it over the net as well, all you'd have to do is pass the save around.
I'm up for a succession game.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 13, 2017, 04:00:29 pm
^Actually, you could do it over the net as well, all you'd have to do is pass the save around.
I'm up for a succession game.
Post by: Draignean on June 13, 2017, 04:04:25 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 13, 2017, 04:06:28 pm
Post by: Draignean on June 13, 2017, 04:14:05 pm
A presidential 2-terms?
Post by: Paul on June 13, 2017, 05:07:24 pm
Post by: Xardalas on June 13, 2017, 05:47:11 pm
Post by: Madman198237 on June 13, 2017, 05:49:36 pm
"Drunken succession forts in DF? AWESOME! Drunken electoral-system rampages in SPACE!?!?!?! EVEN BETTER!"
Post by: Draignean on June 13, 2017, 05:57:59 pm
1. As resistant to violation as an Anime Catgirl in a tentacle factory.
2. Resistance is futile. No, seriously, just make a new empire.
Post by: Sirus on June 13, 2017, 06:11:48 pm
One which allows all crisis events to occur in a single game.
A second which lets the Scourge begin showing up much sooner than normal. I believe the first check takes place maybe 75 years into the game, rather than 120+ like in vanilla.
Those two should add plenty of fun.
Post by: Draignean on June 13, 2017, 06:41:24 pm
If folks are running a succession game, may I recommend two mods?
One which allows all crisis events to occur in a single game.
A second which lets the Scourge begin showing up much sooner than normal. I believe the first check takes place maybe 75 years into the game, rather than 120+ like in vanilla.
Those two should add plenty of fun.
Maybe it's my mods, but the Prethoryn pretty much end my games whenever they show up. One of my games I can fight them to a standstill, but that's it.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 14, 2017, 12:05:24 am
Possibly the most famous succession game.1. Get a couple meat world friends together."This is a madhouse designed by madmen, each with a hatred for the previous one's specific brand of madness!"
2. Play race with democratic government.
3. Switch players every time a new leader is elected.
4. Complain bitterly about what a shitshow the old leader left you.
Post by: PTTG?? on June 16, 2017, 02:34:12 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on June 16, 2017, 02:38:34 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 16, 2017, 02:45:52 pm
I'm playing a race of fast-breeding short-lived bird people in a militaristic tribal democracy. Short lived is really irritating, my scientists don't live long enough to get 5 stars to research precursor artifacts.
This paid off for me when I got the techs to increase lifespan. I had better buffs from my traits late game.
Post by: Teneb on June 16, 2017, 06:31:27 pm
Spoiler: Mars Luxury Resort (click to show/hide)
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 16, 2017, 10:53:58 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 16, 2017, 11:12:32 pm
I want to say that these changes makes Extremely Adaptable overcosted. Before it was worth it so that you could colonize almost every single planet you encountered instead of waiting for techs or different pops or terraforming. I guess it still helps with colonizing planets with negative habitability but those are somewhat rare and regular Adaptable should work just as well. So in practice Extremely Adaptable may turn out to be just a +5% happiness boost and a bonus to growth which I don't have the energy to calculate. You can pick up Communal and Rapid Breeders at half the cost of Extremely adaptable and still have that happiness boost and some of the growth boost, hence why I think it's overpriced.
So I guess the question is whether the bonus to growth from Extremely Adaptable is high enough to justify its cost compared to Communal + Rapid Breeders. Especially since those two points could be dumped into something else. That would require calculating this shit out which is... Something I'll do tomorrow if nobody does so beforehand.
Post by: Culise on June 16, 2017, 11:19:42 pm
Wait... doesn't that mean your choice of species type is no longer cosmetic? So a desert species is functionally different than an ocean one?That was technically already true: different planet modifiers already apply to different biomes at different probabilities. While this particular example was more important before the food rework, tropical worlds simply do not receive the Bleak (-5% habitability, -10% food) modifier, while tundra, arctic, and arid were more likely to receive it. On the flip side, only the three Wet habitable types (Continental, Ocean, Tropical) received the Lush modifier (+10% habitability, +20% food). Various other uninhabitable biomes also have their own particular modifiers, but those obviously aren't relevant due to being uninhabitable; by the time you could access them either via vanilla (Barren) or modded terraforming, the game had reached the state where your starting biome didn't really matter nearly as much. At least, that was the case the last time the wiki was updated; I had to pull the specific examples from there because I couldn't recall them off the top of my head, which is rather telling regarding how significant the "difference" was.
Still, it does seem to raise the question of whether it's OK to go further in this direction. It does differentiate species a bit more and makes the choice of initial biome even more important, but that may not necessarily be to the better if it locks players in particular play directions due to limited bonuses. I don't think it's a bad direction, per se, though, especially with the other changes that allow all species to at least settle all worlds from the start and alter the habitability from a hard cap on happiness to a soft modifier. They may wish to change how expensive Adaptive/Extremely Adaptive are, though, depending on how playtesting shakes out.
EDIT: Ah, USEC already touched on most of my second paragraph. ^_^
Post by: Cthulhu on June 17, 2017, 12:32:37 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 17, 2017, 12:22:51 pm
EDIT: Ah, USEC already touched on most of my second paragraph. ^_^
Yeah. Sorry about that. :v
Also I did the math on Adaptable/Extremely Adaptable and assuming that I understand how habitability affects pop growth, then it works like this:
The effect of (Extremely) Adaptable on pop growth depends on habitability. The closer habitability is to 100%, the larger the effect is. So the maximum amount of pop growth you're getting from Extremely Adaptable is 20%, for colonizing planets that are normally 80% habitability for your pop (ie. Not your homeworld but of the same climate). For just Adaptable it's 10%, at 90% habitability. Of course that's the best case scenario. For climates which are the same type (ie. 60% hab.) it's going to be 16.66% growth for EA and 6.66% for A. For climates of a different type (20% hab.) then the bonus is only 12.5% for EA and 5.88% and A. Of course growth is a slope for habs between these points things sharply drop off at 90~95% hab since the limit is 100% but that should give you a good idea of how Adaptable/Extremely Adaptable affects pop growth in the likely cases.
In other words, for 1 ninth of planet types, Extremely Adaptable is better than Rapid Breeders, slightly better for 2 ninths and worse for 2 thirds. On average it's a 14.26% to pop growth bonus which is honestly better than I expected, especially since moving pops from high-hab worlds to lower ones is always an option. But then that bonus starts dropping once habitability techs come in because that 20% drops to 15% and the other classes don't increase enough to fully compensate. For Adaptable the bonus to growth is only 6.51%.
So basically, in conclusion, I don't think that Adaptable/Extremely Adaptable are worth their cost with the new changes. On average, Extremely Adaptable is slightly worse than Communal + Rapid Breeders, while being twice the cost. It does let you colonize planets with habitability below 20% but that is definitely not worth 2 extra trait points, especially since its effects are significantly reduced with planets at 85% hab or above, which could easily be a third or more of them when you get all of the hab techs and fill out your Tradition tree. Adaptable gives half the bonus of Communal and 43% of Rapid breeders despite being the same cost. And again it exceeds in some edge cases and suffers in others, which makes me wary about its 2 trait point cost as well. However you could probably justify it a touch more than Extremely Adaptable.
tl;dr: Adaptable/Extremely Adaptable are not worth their costs with these changes. They should probably be bumped down in cost by 1 point or somehow reworked to justify their shit.
Post by: Sirus on June 17, 2017, 12:25:13 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 17, 2017, 12:40:03 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on June 17, 2017, 12:51:01 pm
Post by: GiglameshDespair on June 17, 2017, 01:15:34 pm
Well, I suppose they needed some kind of boost.
Post by: Descan on June 18, 2017, 02:10:56 am
Don't know about spiritualist pops tho; i didn't even realize the pops ever DID care about tomb world colonization.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 18, 2017, 07:46:18 am
Post by: Aoi on June 19, 2017, 12:35:23 am
So far, I've mostly been blobbing up a large fleet, picking on a nearby neighbor, demanding them to cede a few planets to me, then I march in, bombard it to bits, drop a land army to occupy it, repeat until they surrender. But, this just doesn't feel right.
Post by: Hanzoku on June 19, 2017, 01:26:43 am
Post by: Culise on June 19, 2017, 01:44:55 am
EDIT:
Also, diplomatically, ceding planets tends to build threat quickly. Having high threat means that empires around you will band together in defensive agreements or, if it pushes their mutual relations high enough, even federate in a desperate attempt to rein you in. As such, at a certain point once you've contacted many or most of the empires in the galaxy, it can become preferable to force your war targets to actually liberate worlds instead of ceding them. As long as you're already large and powerful enough, it's trivial to convince newly-released nations to become your vassals for eventual diplo-annexation, and as said released nations share your ethos, they will do the initial spadework on passing those ethos on to their constituent POPs without forcing you to deal with the unrest and other nitty-gritty of a conquest combined with ethos-mismatch.
Post by: Cthulhu on June 19, 2017, 01:52:08 am
It's also like most 4x games where early on you'll struggle but you hit a critical mass eventually at which point nothing in the game can do shit to you, but that applies to everything really.
Post by: Paul on June 19, 2017, 01:29:32 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on June 19, 2017, 03:02:56 pm
Post by: Teneb on June 19, 2017, 05:21:28 pm
Well, apparently Paradox decided that having your ships continue their exploration after interruption by a hostile ship was a Very Bad ThingTM.Really? Because I saw the opposite several times in my current game. They just bail out of the system and keep going down the queue. It only cancels if they can't reach the next destination without going through the dangerous system.
Latest game, no mods, using hyperdrives, every time my fucking science ship runs into an alien, they cancel their whole fucking queue. It's plain stupid.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 19, 2017, 05:29:32 pm
Also, I avoid revolts my stationing lots of defensive troops on each planet.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on June 19, 2017, 05:38:28 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 20, 2017, 07:08:13 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 20, 2017, 07:55:20 am
Post by: Hanzoku on June 20, 2017, 08:51:59 am
The other awakened power is the militaristic asshole one, but luckily they're way off in the galactic south, so the chance I'll run into their doomstack anytime soon is... small. I hope the bro ancients go and cripple their stack, but we'll see what happens.
Meanwhile, the most powerful non-precursor faction (ranked behind the two awakened, ahead of the two fallen empires) formed the league of non-aligned nations. They're right next to the southern abusive precursors, so I wish them all the best. Of course, four of the five nations around me go and join the league, so I'm having to run around playing whack a mole with their fleets. I won't be contributing much against the enemy awakened coalition, but I should get some pretty good warscore on the war with the League.
Luckily for me, I'm something like #6 on the power ranking, so I can split my fleet and fight (and win) on multiple fronts, but all the ongoing combat makes the game lag something fierce.
Post by: Cruxador on June 21, 2017, 02:04:06 am
Post by: Hanzoku on June 21, 2017, 07:40:19 am
Post by: Teneb on June 21, 2017, 09:02:12 am
Remeber that the humble naked corvette is incredibly strong.
As for wars: it's not worth dowing before you reach 2k+ fleet power because of how strong stations are now. But when you do, get ready to pounce on whomever is weaker (I like to use vassalization).
Post by: Digital Hellhound on June 21, 2017, 09:33:26 am
Or then give up and start a new game, if the situation's unsalvageable. Sometimes you just get unlucky.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 21, 2017, 09:40:39 am
It appears I'm doing SOMETHING wrong now.
I used to be perfectly good at the game, but now I can't keep up with anyone. Some aspect always falls behind to a ridiculous degree, either I can't keep up sufficient fleet support, or my tech falls behind, or I don't have the resources for a large enough fleet, or I can't colonise sufficiently, and I wind up with half of my neighbours all deciding they don't like the look of me.
Part of this is the traditions. If one neighbor goes full tech they usually beat you if you don't. Same for military power. You have to plan on being unable to be the best at more than one thing, at least for the first half of the game. The trick is being good enough at a few things to cope with whatever advantages your enemies have. Part of this usually involves getting a few allies, preferably ones that are strong in areas you are a bit weak.
Post by: Draignean on June 21, 2017, 10:06:21 am
After that point, I go to war constantly and make all my neighbors into vassals.
(Then the Prethoryn come and the game is over, because the Prethoryn are bloody unbeatable. Again, likely because of mods)
Post by: Cthulhu on June 21, 2017, 05:21:01 pm
Post by: Teneb on June 22, 2017, 06:27:47 pm
Spoiler: Return of the übermensch (click to show/hide)
Post by: Mephansteras on June 22, 2017, 07:00:12 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on June 22, 2017, 07:07:25 pm
Post by: Cruxador on June 23, 2017, 12:06:35 am
I never noticed the fasces in the flag section. Is that a concession to the forums? I know they have some tendencies.Tendencies? What are you on about? The only tendency that Paradox forums have are towards Paradox apologism, and even that only goes so far.
The fasces is almost certainly in there simply because it's a potent and popular symbol in southern European culture and has been since the days of Rome.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 23, 2017, 12:28:58 am
Post by: Aoi on June 24, 2017, 06:07:03 pm
...Any thoughts?
Post by: GiglameshDespair on June 24, 2017, 06:24:40 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 24, 2017, 06:27:54 pm
Post by: Descan on June 24, 2017, 08:37:12 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on June 24, 2017, 10:26:23 pm
Post by: Aoi on June 25, 2017, 01:04:08 am
Their (multiple) 70k fleets crumbled before my (singular) 80k fleet.
Post by: Spehss _ on June 29, 2017, 11:36:01 am
Seems like there is a ton to learn in Stellaris. I keep finding myself at a loss as to what to do with my fledgling stellar empire. There's so much to keep track of and so much to do that I feel like I have little to no control over what I'm doing, I'm just responding to what seems good to do.
Post by: Teneb on June 29, 2017, 02:01:57 pm
Spoiler: I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that (click to show/hide)
Pretty much a newbie to Paradox sim games. Only played a little of the CKII demo before stopping.
Seems like there is a ton to learn in Stellaris. I keep finding myself at a loss as to what to do with my fledgling stellar empire. There's so much to keep track of and so much to do that I feel like I have little to no control over what I'm doing, I'm just responding to what seems good to do.
You'll need to be a bit more specific with your doubts and problems if you want help.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 29, 2017, 02:41:40 pm
Pretty much a newbie to Paradox sim games. Only played a little of the CKII demo before stopping.That's pretty normal for Paradox games. For your first like hour or so you just want to figure out what all the buttons do. Then set goals for yourself and try to accomplish them. Most things take a while and you don't really *need* to micro everything. If you play passively for a while your empire will still be there when you start to do things again. If there's nothing useful to do at the current time just increase the game speed.
Seems like there is a ton to learn in Stellaris. I keep finding myself at a loss as to what to do with my fledgling stellar empire. There's so much to keep track of and so much to do that I feel like I have little to no control over what I'm doing, I'm just responding to what seems good to do.
Post by: Sirus on June 29, 2017, 04:51:25 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Mephansteras on June 29, 2017, 05:11:22 pm
Pretty much a newbie to Paradox sim games. Only played a little of the CKII demo before stopping.That's pretty normal for Paradox games. For your first like hour or so you just want to figure out what all the buttons do. Then set goals for yourself and try to accomplish them. Most things take a while and you don't really *need* to micro everything. If you play passively for a while your empire will still be there when you start to do things again. If there's nothing useful to do at the current time just increase the game speed.
Seems like there is a ton to learn in Stellaris. I keep finding myself at a loss as to what to do with my fledgling stellar empire. There's so much to keep track of and so much to do that I feel like I have little to no control over what I'm doing, I'm just responding to what seems good to do.
Also, don't be afraid to periodically pause the game and just go over everything. Check your research, check your planets to figure out if you need to prepare for more populations soon, look at the diplomacy screen to see how you rank up to the other empires. And scan around a bit, see what you know about your neighbors, how big they are, who they're at war with. Make sure you're not falling too far behind militarily.
The game is quite nice about letting you do everything paused, so you can take as much time as you need to set things up before increasing the speed and letting things happen.
Post by: Wolock on June 29, 2017, 06:33:38 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 29, 2017, 06:35:53 pm
Post by: Cruxador on June 29, 2017, 11:04:39 pm
Post by: umiman on June 29, 2017, 11:39:21 pm
Not sure about this new story pack. Seems like it's going to be present in every game but I'm not sure it's dynamic and varied enough to support that.It'll probably be like the Horizon Signal thing where you want to turn it off after the nth time.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 29, 2017, 11:51:17 pm
One day, maybe.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on June 30, 2017, 01:34:16 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I feel like it clashes with the tone of the rest of the game a lot, but eh - it's fun enough for a few goes, usually if it pops up I ignore it.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on June 30, 2017, 01:41:01 am
Post by: Hanzoku on June 30, 2017, 01:44:33 am
Post by: Egan_BW on June 30, 2017, 01:53:41 am
Post by: Radsoc on June 30, 2017, 06:24:50 am
By including "materialism" in a by design religious game/universe, all materialist civs and players turn out to be silly - because they are wrong. The game should've been designed the other way around, i.e. with religion in a materialist universe, but where, figuratively speaking, prayers are left unheard.
Sure, they take a lot of other liberties, so why not, the game works. But they simultaneously want you to immerse yourself in their stories. This gets hard when the inner logic of the stories are in contradiction. It's a bit like magic intense games like Skyrim. The feudal economy of that game does not reflect the state of "technology". Why do menial manual labor when you could just do some magic to skip it. The level of magic in that game would correspond to a super high tech economy, beyond our modern one, in terms of automation and transport, yet it's all surrealistically in a medieval setting. A good story should have no paradoxes or contradictions, even if it's just made up, to be plausible. So, yeah, paradox interactive.
Post by: Hanzoku on June 30, 2017, 07:04:16 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 30, 2017, 08:42:26 am
I'm curious, beyond the Warp, what exactly is 'religious' in the game? There's plenty of rational materialist civilizations in the game that make sense and produce great material works of wonder. Where I think the game falls flat is that it has a weird preconception that if you are materialist, you automatically go cybernetic/synthetic, and if you're spiritualist, you automatically go psychic/transcendent. I think both philosophies can and are fully capable of being independent of the whole physical ascendance/mental ascendance paradigm. A fanatic spiritualist empire that worships machines and technology (Hello, Cult Mechanicum!) and sees becoming cybernetic/synthetic as becoming closer to the Machine God should be just as reasonable as a logical materialist empire that approaches unlocking psychic potential and transcending the physical form as a logical and scientific method to bootstrapping evolution through science.
i mean, that kind of is the exact problem he's pointing at. If psionics were "real" then a real materialism would try to account for them. placing psionics solely in the realm of "spirituality" just means stellaris materialism is wrong on its own terms.
conflating spiritualism and psionics was a terrible design choice, but it's also the only way they can accommodate their rabidly right-wing "deus vult" fan-base that would never buy an atheistic space game.
Post by: Persus13 on June 30, 2017, 08:47:51 am
conflating spiritualism and psionics was a terrible design choice, but it's also the only way they can accommodate their rabidly right-wing "deus vult" fan-base that would never buy an atheistic space game.I'm betting that's not why they made that design choice.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 30, 2017, 08:56:34 am
conflating spiritualism and psionics was a terrible design choice, but it's also the only way they can accommodate their rabidly right-wing "deus vult" fan-base that would never buy an atheistic space game.I'm betting that's not why they made that design choice.
they probably didn't think about it in those terms, no, but that was the driving force behind the need to have religion at all
Post by: Teneb on June 30, 2017, 09:03:15 am
Remember that Paradox are swedes, and thus they lean more towards atheist neoliberalism with social welfare on the side.they probably didn't think about it in those terms, no, but that was the driving force behind the need to have religion at allconflating spiritualism and psionics was a terrible design choice, but it's also the only way they can accommodate their rabidly right-wing "deus vult" fan-base that would never buy an atheistic space game.I'm betting that's not why they made that design choice.
But I think the reason they decided spiritualism = psionics was to give that something to the spiritualists. The materialists had AI and such, and it seems Paradox is going with the Star Trek style of thought that dictates that logic is the opposite of emotion, with some elements of Dune too.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 30, 2017, 09:40:57 am
Remember that Paradox are swedes, and thus they lean more towards atheist neoliberalism with social welfare on the side.they probably didn't think about it in those terms, no, but that was the driving force behind the need to have religion at allconflating spiritualism and psionics was a terrible design choice, but it's also the only way they can accommodate their rabidly right-wing "deus vult" fan-base that would never buy an atheistic space game.I'm betting that's not why they made that design choice.
Of course that's the mainstream of Swedish politics. But that's not who their games are for. There is a significant chunk of their players who are ultranationalist / ultraright-wing, with basically every strain of insane alt-right thought you can imagine (Breivik defenders, neomonarchists/pro-fuedalism, pro-ethnic cleansing, etc etc).
Quote
But I think the reason they decided spiritualism = psionics was to give that something to the spiritualists. The materialists had AI and such, and it seems Paradox is going with the Star Trek style of thought that dictates that logic is the opposite of emotion, with some elements of Dune too.
The better comparison is Warhammer 40k (hence someone calling it "the Warp" earlier). Which, of course, is xenophobic space catholicism.
So given that, how can stellaris materialism exist in the same universe?
Post by: umiman on June 30, 2017, 10:20:20 am
Hahahahahahahaha.....conflating spiritualism and psionics was a terrible design choice, but it's also the only way they can accommodate their rabidly right-wing "deus vult" fan-base that would never buy an atheistic space game.I'm betting that's not why they made that design choice.
they probably didn't think about it in those terms, no, but that was the driving force behind the need to have religion at all
HAHAHAHAHAHHAA.....
Do you know what you're talking about here?
Do you even realize what company you're referring to?
You think they included a nonexistent religion framework ripe for exploitation to appease the fans? You think they even give a shit about that? Like, it even crossed their minds for a microsecond that they better "appease their hardcore deus vult fanbase"?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 30, 2017, 11:29:43 am
Hahahahahahahaha.....conflating spiritualism and psionics was a terrible design choice, but it's also the only way they can accommodate their rabidly right-wing "deus vult" fan-base that would never buy an atheistic space game.I'm betting that's not why they made that design choice.
they probably didn't think about it in those terms, no, but that was the driving force behind the need to have religion at all
HAHAHAHAHAHHAA.....
Do you know what you're talking about here?
Do you even realize what company you're referring to?
You think they included a nonexistent religion framework ripe for exploitation to appease the fans? You think they even give a shit about that? Like, it even crossed their minds for a microsecond that they better "appease their hardcore deus vult fanbase"?
i totally credit this explanation as likely and will admit you are right when they release a "build-a-religion" expansion like CiV:G&K / various EU4 religions.
Post by: Paul on June 30, 2017, 11:59:20 am
The spiritualism in this game doesn't even come close to any real world religion, and certainly not any of the Abrahamic religions.
The closest it comes to is some forms of paganism or mysticism. The Abrahamic religions all have one thing in common (well, more than one thing, but this is the biggie): They believe in a single God who exists as the only God and who created everything in the universe, as it is, in 6 days. Some of the more liberal members of all 3 faiths don't hold to this, but the conservatives of all 3 faiths do hold to this.
This game's spirituality flies in the face of that. There is a higher plane where multiple gods or higher beings live, the whole setting is based on evolution and billions of years being true, and the ultimate form of evolution is to transform and ascend to that higher plane.
As what you would probably describe as a "rabidly right wing Christian" it doesn't bother me at all to play a game that represents things that way. It's a game, meant for entertainment purposes. It's not supposed to be educational or political. Even CK2, which could easily be very political and has a lot of history, still injects a healthy dose of silliness and fun gameplay. I also play Crusader Kings 2 as the *gasp* PAGANS and MUSLIMS sometimes! Oh, the horror - I'm conquering make believe Christians in a make believe simulation of alternate history! What would my rabid foaming at the mouth ring wing deus vult Christian friends think?
Post by: Baffler on June 30, 2017, 12:22:00 pm
By including "materialism" in a by design religious game/universe, all materialist civs and players turn out to be silly - because they are wrong. The game should've been designed the other way around, i.e. with religion in a materialist universe, but where, figuratively speaking, prayers are left unheard.
This comes off as pretty petty to be quite honest. Your complaint toward spiritual/materialist is literally "this game doesn't cater to MY philisophical position! Those dumb fundies should be left out in the cold!" I frankly think it's good on them for making spiritualism an actually viable philosophy instead of just dangerous assholes you have to work around, fight off, or keep appeased as is much more typical, while still making the opposite a good choice. I do agree though that limiting the Shroud and robots/upload behind one or another is a little silly, but I guess I can see why they did it that way.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 30, 2017, 12:33:46 pm
I'm pretty sure that the whole fanatic spiritualist = psychics thing isn't a moral statement its more of an extremely stock sci-fi trope. But I do agree that, how did that one person put it, the Paradox forums have some tendencies. I would not say that's what Paradox games are for per se. I would say that Paradox games attract a lot of people, like for example they have the historical revenge fantasy crowd with Aztec invasions and pagans/natives being able to survive and theoretically conquer the world. Compare the Total War saga which usually makes factions like that unplayable (and had I think... 2 unit models in Rome 2 Total War that were dark skinned? Out of like a bajillion. Even the Romans and Iberians are very pale despite locals to those regions typically having more olive skin even in modern times, the Romans should be darker skinned than the Germanic barbarians). Ah, anyway, I would say that what Paradox games attract is history buffs. A very common fallacy of people who study history (which thankfully seems to be in the process of being pushed out of schools and history books) is taking primary sources at face value. An example of this would be the Conan the Barbarian stereotype, a lot of casual history buffs are all over that shit for a million reasons but its just straight wrong. Or for example Dominions which takes a wide but surface level interpretation of history (for example featuring the Aztec and African kingdom factions interacting with other factions over the course of countless years yet never adopting their weapons, when in reality those peoples straight up had guns for most of the Colonial period albiet not ones they made themselves).Remember that Paradox are swedes, and thus they lean more towards atheist neoliberalism with social welfare on the side.they probably didn't think about it in those terms, no, but that was the driving force behind the need to have religion at allconflating spiritualism and psionics was a terrible design choice, but it's also the only way they can accommodate their rabidly right-wing "deus vult" fan-base that would never buy an atheistic space game.I'm betting that's not why they made that design choice.
Of course that's the mainstream of Swedish politics. But that's not who their games are for. There is a significant chunk of their players who are ultranationalist / ultraright-wing, with basically every strain of insane alt-right thought you can imagine (Breivik defenders, neomonarchists/pro-fuedalism, pro-ethnic cleansing, etc etc).
Back to Stellaris, I'd also add that science fiction has always had a strong authoritarian (often fascist) strain to it. Not, mind you, necessarily agreeing with that authoritarianism, but it exists as a subtext very often. As does genocide which is extremely unusually highly present in sci-fi, usually going hand in hand with the authoritarian subtext. I'd say that purely in terms of how they handle authoritarianism there are 3 strains of sci fi: dystopian (authoritarianism is the future and its bad), military sci-fi (authoritarianism is the future and that's OK), and space opera/post-apocalypse (authoritarianism exists but this is a story about people, not about governments). Some of them are a mix for example cyberpunk skirts the edge between accepting authoritarianism (Ghost in the Shell) versus ignoring it in favor of a personal story (Neuromancer).
Post by: Radsoc on June 30, 2017, 01:10:00 pm
Ironically a similar problem exists in HoI IV with the soviet focus tree, where guys who are supposed to be materialists are forced to adopt (tooltip self-described or not) idealistic nodes. It's an immersion killer. I would more be a proponent of a game mechanics where a change to material circumstances affect the ideas of a population, i.e. second order variable, than allowing players direct (tooltip) access to ideas.
I think the stated DF approach to magic is a correct approach, where you generate a basis (the laws of nature or what not) and then (try to) build a consistent universe out of that.
Post by: Teneb on June 30, 2017, 01:28:27 pm
Ironically a similar problem exists in HoI IV with the soviet focus tree, where guys who are supposed to be materialists are forced to adopt (tooltip self-described or not) idealistic nodes. It's an immersion killer. I would more be a proponent of a game mechanics where a change to material circumstances affect the ideas of a population, i.e. second order variable, than allowing players direct (tooltip) access to ideas.Soviets were only atheists on propaganda, both their own and others'. The Orthodox Church was a massive power in Soviet Russia, especially since it's not exactly easy to get everyone to just drop their belief system in a heartbeat. The Russian Revolution happened in response to the authoritarianism and militarism of the czarist monarchy, the consequences of industrialization and a wish to return to the old Mir (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obshchina) rural system, not in response to religion.
EDIT: Reading the forum post you linked to, it seems you are confusing spiritualism (religion) with (philosophical) idealism. Stellaris spiritualism is not about Hegelian thought. Stellaris spiritualism is a vague belief system tied to the idea that there is a higher plane of existence tied to psionic energies, which turns out to be true. It does not reject that the material world exists outside our perceptions. Stellaris materialism, meanwhile, argues that there is no sort of higher power, instead everything can be explained through the scientific method. If something can't be explained by the laws of physics, then it's not because there is some mystic property to it, but that researchers got the laws wrong.
Post by: Radsoc on June 30, 2017, 01:56:23 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Re: Edit : That kind of spiritualism ends up in idealism, and is idealism at its core, hegelian or not. (Geist = spirit) ;)
The idea is that the world is material in one way or another (i.e. there's nothing else).
But yes, IF they just got the laws wrong (tooltips and descriptions do not seem to support this though), then it's no prob, and the materialists should be able to research it just as well (but they can't!).
Tooltip for the hardline spiritual:
"Our science has proved that Consciousness begets reality. We regard with patience the childlike efforts of those who delude themselves it is the other way around, as they play with their blocks of 'hard matter'."
Materialist (not the hardcore - its description is not to the point):
"As we reach for the stars, we must put away childish things; gods, spirits and other phantasms of the brain. Reality is cruel and unforgiving, yet we must steel ourselves and secure the survival of our race through the unflinching pursuit of science and technology."
This is idealism ('spirituality' is for a lot of reasons a good enough substitute) vs materialism.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 30, 2017, 03:15:13 pm
Post by: Descan on June 30, 2017, 04:40:35 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on June 30, 2017, 05:32:56 pm
Post by: Teneb on June 30, 2017, 05:34:29 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 30, 2017, 05:38:09 pm
Uhhh, the confederacy was the *bad guys* in Starcraft 1. Your own faction was the Sons of Korhal, who were rebelling *against* the authoritarian government, and when the leader of the SoK decided to go Full Emperor Mode, Raynor bugged out pretty immediately (and the player went with him.) Not exactly positive, or neutral, towards authoritarianism.Oh I know its just... odd. If the Terrans had a hammer and sickle in space, or a USA flag, that would have been symbolic of something. But its not clear exactly where the Confederacy connection arises since they were never rebels and they don't have any connection to the RL Confederacy's ethics. The only good guy human faction is a tiny rebel group that never does anything on its own. The majority of humanity lives under totalitarian rule, including the guys back on Earth, and Raynor's main motivation for fighting Mengsk is personal rather than political. AFAIK Raynor has no real problem with an emperor as long as its not Mengsk.
I'm not saying SC1 was ever fascist propaganda because its not, it just has that weird military sci-fi subtext where everything is totalitarian and people are so used to it they don't find it worthy of comment.
Post by: Descan on June 30, 2017, 06:03:26 pm
The confederacy angle is just "they're bad guys," it's not much deeper than that about why the devs chose that.
Same reason as Mengsk going Full Emperor; they wanted a reason to give for Raynor still being the good guy and for the player character to go with him, as if sacrificing Kerrigan weren't enough for that.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 30, 2017, 06:15:08 pm
Post by: Cruxador on June 30, 2017, 10:50:57 pm
They don't have any system of religion though. Spiritualism is a term that can include religion but isn't necessarily religion itself and definitely not even close to enough to make people happy who want religion in the game.conflating spiritualism and psionics was a terrible design choice, but it's also the only way they can accommodate their rabidly right-wing "deus vult" fan-base that would never buy an atheistic space game.I'm betting that's not why they made that design choice.
they probably didn't think about it in those terms, no, but that was the driving force behind the need to have religion at all
Do you have even a single fact to back that up?Remember that Paradox are swedes, and thus they lean more towards atheist neoliberalism with social welfare on the side.they probably didn't think about it in those terms, no, but that was the driving force behind the need to have religion at allconflating spiritualism and psionics was a terrible design choice, but it's also the only way they can accommodate their rabidly right-wing "deus vult" fan-base that would never buy an atheistic space game.I'm betting that's not why they made that design choice.
Of course that's the mainstream of Swedish politics. But that's not who their games are for. There is a significant chunk of their players who are ultranationalist / ultraright-wing, with basically every strain of insane alt-right thought you can imagine (Breivik defenders, neomonarchists/pro-fuedalism, pro-ethnic cleansing, etc etc).
I see where you're coming from, but I think he's got a point too. Thing is, he's conflating materialism with atheism (or a-spiritualism) in the sense that these are then nations that deny the existence of spiritual powers such as psionics, which means that they're inherently wrong and foolish. In real life, we're used to thinking of spiritualists as holding ideals that may be counter to material attainment (so, no robots even if robots make life easier) but we aren't used to thinking of atheists ignoring concrete science and useful abilities for purely ideological reasons. One can argue that materialism in this universe is not merely agnostic but dogmatically anti-spiritual, however I agree with Radsoc's assessment that this is kind of silly.By including "materialism" in a by design religious game/universe, all materialist civs and players turn out to be silly - because they are wrong. The game should've been designed the other way around, i.e. with religion in a materialist universe, but where, figuratively speaking, prayers are left unheard.
This comes off as pretty petty to be quite honest. Your complaint toward spiritual/materialist is literally "this game doesn't cater to MY philisophical position! Those dumb fundies should be left out in the cold!" I frankly think it's good on them for making spiritualism an actually viable philosophy instead of just dangerous assholes you have to work around, fight off, or keep appeased as is much more typical, while still making the opposite a good choice. I do agree though that limiting the Shroud and robots/upload behind one or another is a little silly, but I guess I can see why they did it that way.
Post by: IcyTea31 on July 01, 2017, 04:17:13 pm
After all, if someone told you they have created a machine that can dream, would you believe them?
They use their minds to create a world, until that world invades their minds and tries to destroy the galaxy.
Materialists believe that they must put away the 'phantasms of the brain' in this cold reality, and thus they don't know where to look for psionics.
After all, if someone told you they visit a place full of gods when they dream, would you believe them?
They use their world to create minds, until those minds rebel against their world and try to destroy the galaxy.
Considering both psionics and synths observably exist, I'd say both are in the wrong, especially when going down those paths is dangerous if you don't know when to stop. At least the biological path is open to both and less likely to doom everyone...
Post by: Wysthric on July 02, 2017, 06:47:31 am
Spiritualists believe that consciousness begets reality, and thus true synthetic intelligence is thought impossible to them.
After all, if someone told you they have created a machine that can dream, would you believe them?
They use their minds to create a world, until that world invades their minds and tries to destroy the galaxy.
Materialists believe that they must put away the 'phantasms of the brain' in this cold reality, and thus they don't know where to look for psionics.
After all, if someone told you they visit a place full of gods when they dream, would you believe them?
They use their world to create minds, until those minds rebel against their world and try to destroy the galaxy.
Considering both psionics and synths observably exist, I'd say both are in the wrong, especially when going down those paths is dangerous if you don't know when to stop. At least the biological path is open to both and less likely to doom everyone...
I think the Bio path should be buffed slightly and in turn give a chance to generate a sort of "Grey Goo" scenario with a certain DNA code being able to create both uber pops and organic ships, similar to the old Synth Uprising but without a homeworld.
Post by: Sirus on July 02, 2017, 08:18:47 am
Post by: Wysthric on July 02, 2017, 08:26:08 am
Gray Goo is more of a synthetic thing though, isn't it? Nanomachines that reproduce out of control by breaking down other matter. While it certainly sounds like some sort of plague, it isn't organic in nature and isn't really suited for a bio path.
The phrase "Gray Goo" refers to nanomachines, correct, but I don't see why we couldn't engineer a living bio - weapon that does the same thing.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on July 02, 2017, 08:29:15 am
That's called bacteria.Gray Goo is more of a synthetic thing though, isn't it? Nanomachines that reproduce out of control by breaking down other matter. While it certainly sounds like some sort of plague, it isn't organic in nature and isn't really suited for a bio path.
The phrase "Gray Goo" refers to nanomachines, correct, but I don't see why we couldn't engineer a living bio - weapon that does the same thing.
Post by: Trekkin on July 02, 2017, 10:09:23 am
The phrase "Gray Goo" refers to nanomachines, correct, but I don't see why we couldn't engineer a living bio - weapon that does the same thing.
Mostly because of the limitations of biochemistry, really. There are some things that it's simply not efficient for life as we know it to eat, either because they don't have much internal chemical potential energy or because their metabolites interact with hydrocarbons in ways that would eventually be fatal. You could try to get around the problem by completely reinventing biochemistry around some other set of elements, but at some point the distinction between self-replicating machines and life gets fuzzy anyway.
Given the biological path's focus on the genetic engineering of intelligent species, I'd like to see a late-game crisis for biological empires in which all the POPs start modifying themselves in increasingly extreme and unstable ways and end up falling victim to bad interactions between their many mutations and the whole empire turns into Bioshock. It would seem more in line with the LEGO-style sci-fi genetics tropes that Stellaris seems to be trying to evoke.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 02, 2017, 12:48:18 pm
Whenever I search, I just get demands for it from last year.
Also, this game is pretty fun. Still on my first game, Blorg, 2242 and I'm trying to get a federation rolling. Was going to be "Hugs for all!" but "Bright Compact" is good too.
I was influence-locked for a while due to overusing frontier outposts... I somehow got the impression I could only form colonies within my borders, like outposts :'( That and it's my first game, heh, I'm sure my giant sector is bad too. I can see why people worry about having too many colonies, it's really starting to hold back my research and unity gain.
I'm probably playing "militarist" wrong. My militarist faction sure thinks so. I'm strongly tempted to switch to pacifism, since it matches what I'm doing and might make my second biggest faction happy enough to start contributing influence. LOVE! AND! PEAAAAACE!
I really just wanted to expand fast enough to survive and be relevant, but the galaxy turned out pretty nice. That one race I did start near even volunteered a non-aggression pact... As I surrounded their borders, and also was repugnant. Didn't feel right to attack them after that, now we're federation buddies. (Besides... I needed to expand outward, not get bogged down in a pointless local war)
Spoiler: map (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Friend got the Russell's Teapot event (click to show/hide)
I don't mind some of the mechanics requiring some... learning, when the game somehow reminds me of Star Control 2, SM's Alpha Centauri, and even The Last Federation. Oh and as a friend pointed out, Spore.
WAY easier to learn than EUIV that's for sure
Post by: IcyTea31 on July 02, 2017, 01:59:48 pm
I somehow got the impression I could only form colonies within my borders, like outposts :'(You can build frontier outposts outside your borders. It is indeed the main way to claim planets and resources for yourself until you can get a colony there. It's only mining stations that you can't build outside your borders.
Post by: Trekkin on July 02, 2017, 02:34:54 pm
Post by: Sirus on July 02, 2017, 02:42:53 pm
For a long time, I had a similar misconception regarding wormhole stations, which really slowed down my expansion.fuck the what
Post by: Trekkin on July 02, 2017, 02:48:00 pm
For a long time, I had a similar misconception regarding wormhole stations, which really slowed down my expansion.fuck the what
Somehow I had gotten the impression that wormhole stations could only be built within your borders or those of empires with whom you have the appropriate agreement. Then I found out that you can build wormhole stations in unclaimed space, too, as well as the space of empires on which you've declared war.
Post by: Sirus on July 02, 2017, 03:01:32 pm
Yes, I get that now. I hadn't known it earlier. Hence my somewhat-profane statement of shock.For a long time, I had a similar misconception regarding wormhole stations, which really slowed down my expansion.fuck the what
Somehow I had gotten the impression that wormhole stations could only be built within your borders or those of empires with whom you have the appropriate agreement. Then I found out that you can build wormhole stations in unclaimed space, too, as well as the space of empires on which you've declared war.
Post by: PTTG?? on July 02, 2017, 03:11:28 pm
Fleets now have morale. They can emergency jump after only a day of charging -- that's the whole point of an emergency jump! -- but generally they won't flee unless they think they're going to lose. Admiral AI now plays a big role, and psionic enemies can attack morale directly instead of by blowing up ships. As crews get more experience, they have more useful morale (they flee winable battles less, and get smarter at fleeing unwinnable battles).
Very large ships can suppress swarms of small ships by popping a few of them, deciding the battle is going poorly, then retreating to recharge shields and repair. Small ships tend to get destroyed too fast to get good experience, while large ships get tougher over time. OOO! Admirals could have faction loyalties, and if unhappy could surrender or even mutiny!
Ok actually let's go back one more step and just tell the developers to talk to the guys in the CKII department already.
Post by: Mephansteras on July 02, 2017, 03:17:47 pm
Anyone know what's up with that?
Post by: Rolan7 on July 02, 2017, 03:21:23 pm
My bad, I meant to say "like stations". Mining and research I guess, not sure about military stations (haven't built any).I somehow got the impression I could only form colonies within my borders, like outposts :'(You can build frontier outposts outside your borders. It is indeed the main way to claim planets and resources for yourself until you can get a colony there. It's only mining stations that you can't build outside your borders.
I did realize that for outposts, thankfully! I think the tutorial was helpful about it. Just somehow I thought I had tried colonizing an unclaimed system and failed.
I was considering switching to pacifism, but I don't need more core systems. The sector seems to be developing just fine for now. 75% tax so I never need to spend influence to drain it, I just throw it minerals occasionally.
I do want that 20% unity bonus though, so I'll keep it in mind... I need to reform my government first, anyway, or my Distinguished Admiralty would sit there unused. I should probably clear more crystal creatures before I do either. It'd also piss off the militarists to the north, and they're very strong.
Being too strong to invade is a good way to stay at peace... And I like that the pacifist faction actually seems cool with that, as long as I develop the economy too.
For a long time, I had a similar misconception regarding wormhole stations, which really slowed down my expansion.Warp is so simple, I'm glad I started with it. The lanes might be interesting too, I did like Space Empires. Wormholes sound so tricky.
Post by: Sirus on July 02, 2017, 03:28:45 pm
Post by: Trekkin on July 02, 2017, 04:37:58 pm
It can be tricky, but it's serviceable without digging too deeply into the mechanics of wormhole transit time and amazing when you do.
Post by: IcyTea31 on July 02, 2017, 04:51:45 pm
Post by: Culise on July 02, 2017, 04:53:50 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on July 02, 2017, 05:35:41 pm
Which is fine. Every system needs some sort of downside.
Post by: Trekkin on July 02, 2017, 08:58:24 pm
Which is fine. Every system needs some sort of downside.
Speaking of balanced systems, what ethics and civics do people prefer? I've been trying out materialism, xenophilia, and egalitarianism so I can get additional Unity (via Beacon of Liberty) but still declare unrestricted wars.
Post by: Teneb on July 02, 2017, 10:21:49 pm
When roleplaying: It depends a lot on how I styled the civilization, so I can't give you a solid answer on that.
Post by: IcyTea31 on July 03, 2017, 03:05:38 am
Speaking of balanced systems, what ethics and civics do people prefer? I've been trying out materialism, xenophilia, and egalitarianism so I can get additional Unity (via Beacon of Liberty) but still declare unrestricted wars.Not to judge, but unrestricted wars probably mean you'd want to annex planets, which is terrible for Unity gain. I'd swap out materialism for pacifism and play the migration game for that strategy. Or just go pacifist-spiritualist-xenophobe with Inner Perfection and Agrarian Idyll if I want truly massive Unity gains at the cost of everything else.
Liberation wars can be used for 'conquest' anyway with a bit of trickery. Tributaries are quite a lot like sectors, and while vassalizing and integrating takes a long time, you get to skip the part where the pops are unhappy for being conquered.
Post by: Zangi on July 03, 2017, 07:39:41 am
Kinda like a militaristic isolationist wannabe precursor who is friendly to aliums, but they are all gonna be second class citizens at best.
Close all the borders to any aliums by default.
While also screwing around with/uplifting primitives. I'm at the part where I can start wars over primitive planets, cause I'm the precursor. My job, not yours.
Also, I've learned how to mod. Huzzah. So many primitives everywhere.
Using the alphamod stuff and a ton of other things that seem to fit with it.
Government and ethics mod is awesome, but it is super screwy with ethics weight. Plus, not a lot of compatibility out there yet.
Post by: Trekkin on July 03, 2017, 08:20:10 am
Not to judge, but unrestricted wars probably mean you'd want to annex planets, which is terrible for Unity gain. I'd swap out materialism for pacifism and play the migration game for that strategy. Or just go pacifist-spiritualist-xenophobe with Inner Perfection and Agrarian Idyll if I want truly massive Unity gains at the cost of everything else.
Liberation wars can be used for 'conquest' anyway with a bit of trickery. Tributaries are quite a lot like sectors, and while vassalizing and integrating takes a long time, you get to skip the part where the pops are unhappy for being conquered.
Oh, normally I do go for liberation wars for just that reason; I usually only resort to unrestricted wars in the late game, when I've got all the technologies and traditions and ascension perks I really want and just need more planets to reach the win condition. Pacifism, I've found, makes an already long slog even longer when some newly created empires refuse vassalization. Then, too, integration costs a lot of Influence, although that's more of a mid-game concern when Influence is limiting my ability to go colonize some great big swath of planets that a new member species or technology has just made habitable. I suppose the more optimal strategy might be to start pacifist and embrace militarism midway through, though.
I've done the Inner Perfection/Agrarian Idyll unity-at-all-costs build before, and I found that having to deal with both the xenophobe diplomacy penalty and the pacifism happiness penalty from wars was just not worth the extra Unity.
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 03, 2017, 11:51:19 am
Mostly because of the limitations of biochemistry, really. There are some things that it's simply not efficient for life as we know it to eat, either because they don't have much internal chemical potential energy or because their metabolites interact with hydrocarbons in ways that would eventually be fatal. You could try to get around the problem by completely reinventing biochemistry around some other set of elements, but at some point the distinction between self-replicating machines and life gets fuzzy anyway.If machinists get to create galaxynet terminator uprising, psionics get to create the eye of terror, would the biological focus producing the blob be all that appropriate?
Given the biological path's focus on the genetic engineering of intelligent species, I'd like to see a late-game crisis for biological empires in which all the POPs start modifying themselves in increasingly extreme and unstable ways and end up falling victim to bad interactions between their many mutations and the whole empire turns into Bioshock. It would seem more in line with the LEGO-style sci-fi genetics tropes that Stellaris seems to be trying to evoke.
Look at it this way, in canon of the game's lore, the various galaxies the player plays in all had precursor species. The federation species is torn apart by pirates and galactic warrior nomads, with their interconnected empire of trade collapsing and countless planets starving to death resulting in the extinction of the empire (fleets of warrior nomads not implemented, trade in stellaris is more akin to individual barter than a galactic economy, it is impossible to starve anything to death). The cybrex AI tries wiping out all galactic life, then come to for whatever reason allow themselves to be exterminated by the surviving biologicals (likely owing to being materialists discovering they're in a spiritualist universe). The spiritualist precursor realizes they're in a video game and commit super mass suicide (which can be done in game with the shroud end game stuff). Thus there leaves that one precursor which got wiped out by a galactic pandemic - so would it not make more sense to have a CKII style pandemic mode, spread by the free movement of galactic pathogens and higher habitability, with an end-game crisis-tier adaptive virus triggered by some dickheads with genetic ascendancy creating an unstoppable pathogen. Could be super plague that wipes out planets (I'm thinking with infection being boosted by border friction, planet size, habitability, migration treaties, federation and so on), could be zombies (please no), could be a fourth crisis faction of a biological hive mind virus that augments and assimilates all the pops it infects - with mechanics that would make it a cross between two of the current crisis factions. Make it a dead space sorta deal where in addition to prethoryn style invasion fleets, one has to deal with dead spaceesque merchant and science vessels full of dead bodies drifting into planetary orbit
All in all though, thinking about it, I like the idea of a genetic crisis more than I'd want to see it in game. At least, not without better migration, planetary land warfare and some existing disease mechanics
Post by: IcyTea31 on July 03, 2017, 03:15:41 pm
Post by: Greiger on July 04, 2017, 03:12:56 am
Military: I am uncomfortable without a powerful defensive military.Which is fine. Every system needs some sort of downside.
Speaking of balanced systems, what ethics and civics do people prefer? I've been trying out materialism, xenophilia, and egalitarianism so I can get additional Unity (via Beacon of Liberty) but still declare unrestricted wars.
Materialist: I dislike most religion. Not choosing to be against spiritualism just seems wrong to me. And I like the science boost it gives.
Egalitarian: Everyone is equal, like my materialist choice slavery seems abhorrent to me, so I choose the opposite.
I could probably drop materialist, and egalitarian, since they are really only chosen due to distaste of the alternative, but I had one game where materialist got me bionics. I dislike robots, but I love bionics. And it just so happened that my biggest rival had gotten psionics just a year after. That was kinda cool, and made for good story headcanon.
I haven't tried others very much, outside of a few very short lived games. In my own experience my setup tends to result in my games ending up with huge fleets of high tech ships just sitting around eating energy credits until the nearest spiritualist empire makes the mistake of declaring war again, because I refuse to so much as give them the time of day, they get their butt handed to them, I liberate a few worlds, integrate them if they seem useful, and continue with my live and let live mentality until someone gets uppity again.
Basically a really annoyed but lazy bionic lion that eats the Jehovah's witnesses that come to the door.
Post by: Teneb on July 04, 2017, 08:50:46 am
Post by: Descan on July 04, 2017, 10:43:26 am
needless to say that was Ideologically Impure but it was fun to murder everyone in the name of Robo Space Jesus
Post by: Mephansteras on July 04, 2017, 11:44:44 am
I never really understand the appeal of only playing nations that reflect your ideology. Same deal for rpgs and other games with character customizations and modelling them after yourself. Seems like a waste of an opportunity.
I agree. It's a great place to start, since it is easier to learn systems when you're free to focus on those and not role-playing questions, but it seems like a waste of potential if you do that all the time.
Post by: Cruxador on July 04, 2017, 11:52:02 am
Did that get changed in some patch or other, then?
Given the biological path's focus on the genetic engineering of intelligent species, I'd like to see a late-game crisis for biological empires in which all the POPs start modifying themselves in increasingly extreme and unstable ways and end up falling victim to bad interactions between their many mutations and the whole empire turns into Bioshock. It would seem more in line with the LEGO-style sci-fi genetics tropes that Stellaris seems to be trying to evoke.I'd think eclipse phase would fit better. But meat only, not robots and cybernetics. Because apparently transhumanism must be a single-agent affair due to balance.
Post by: Teneb on July 04, 2017, 11:54:26 am
Right next to me spawns the Lyrite Galactic Technocracy, xenophobe fanatic materialists. So you can guess tensions happened (they actually attacked me and lost). Outwards through the spiral arm is the Havoll Interplanetary Republic, who are egalitarian fanatic materalists, so they hate me. They've also buddied up with the Lyrites and forged a defensive pact. In the next arm, I meet two powers. One is a xenophile fallen empire that really likes me for some reason. The other? Xenophobe fanatic spiritualists, the K'Taknor Holy Nation. They immediately NAP me. Soon after, they offer a defensive pact, which I accept. But that's not weird. What is weird is that they just offered me a federation offer. The first federation at all in this game, in fact. Just them and me.
So far there are exactly two non-FE xenophiles and a single pacifist (not a xenophile either).
Post by: Spehss _ on July 04, 2017, 04:50:54 pm
Guess the second leader they elected was already getting old. Made me chuckle.
Post by: Culise on July 04, 2017, 05:35:13 pm
So my first leader of my fox people oligarchy died. They elect a new leader. About a decade later, the next leader dies. New election.Yeah, it can be amusing. With the way your first wave of leaders all arrives at once at the start of the game, you can easily end up with a Soviet-style gerontocratic wave of deaths a few decades in, give or take a decade or two for racial longevity traits, where they keep dying and electing new old folks.
Guess the second leader they elected was already getting old. Made me chuckle.
Post by: Sirus on July 04, 2017, 05:37:56 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 04, 2017, 05:51:07 pm
Post by: Sirus on July 04, 2017, 05:52:52 pm
Post by: Descan on July 04, 2017, 06:09:48 pm
Post by: Sirus on July 04, 2017, 06:15:20 pm
Post by: Culise on July 04, 2017, 06:15:38 pm
i thought they became a governer leader if they aren't re-elected...?Nope. As far as I've ever seen, they simply disappear into the
Post by: Wolock on July 04, 2017, 10:55:46 pm
It happened once to me long ago when the leader of my Canadian Space Confederation ran on a platform of bringing back slavery during his reelection. I ruled it as a fall of grace in this case and he lost to someone with a title of sir.
Post by: Dostoevsky on July 04, 2017, 11:01:43 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 05, 2017, 12:19:01 am
I wish I knew why your first leader just disappears into the ether if he or she doesn't get re-elected.Real life presidents don't generally go back into congress.
Post by: umiman on July 05, 2017, 03:52:17 am
I was under the impression that presidents of all races, creeds, and species get into congress all the time. Hell, some of them REALLY love congress. Like, with as many constituents as they can get away with.I wish I knew why your first leader just disappears into the ether if he or she doesn't get re-elected.Real life presidents don't generally go back into congress.
Post by: Zangi on July 05, 2017, 06:53:52 am
Plus the crazy countries make it really easy for everyone else to be buddies. That +30 or +50 same rival bonus. Heck, even made it too easy for me to make non-aggression pacts and close all the borders.
Though, early-mid game balance wise, it is really damned hard to take down outposts and space stations cause of these mods I got, seems they were designed for end-game usefulness.
As for the FTL/Warp stuff... Way too easy to expand all over the freaking place if you are not Hyperlaning.
While if you Hyperlane and let AI use the fancy ones, they weirdly expand all over the places you leave open if you don't splurge your outposts everywhere. And any asshole 'friends' you have open borders with will go past your front lines and plop down an outpost. That annoyed the heck out of me.
Also, first contact stage, it really means nothing. The AI will always spend the time to make contact. And it gets done in 2-3 months at most. Not enough time for a first strike against the filthy interlopers encroaching upon my borders.
Edit: I'm gonna have to find mods that heavily nerf the range on the fancy ones if I still want to have them in the game.
Post by: alway on July 05, 2017, 10:44:42 pm
Hmmm... There does not seem to be enough instability in my current game. There are like 3 federation blocks, but I think 2 of em are pacifist hippy types.On the normal aggression mapgen settings, yeah. Haven't tried the higher ones, but the setting does exist and may be worth tinkering with, considering that's been my past 2 games as well.
Plus the crazy countries make it really easy for everyone else to be buddies. That +30 or +50 same rival bonus. Heck, even made it too easy for me to make non-aggression pacts and close all the borders.
Post by: Sartain on July 06, 2017, 01:24:38 am
Hmmm... There does not seem to be enough instability in my current game. There are like 3 federation blocks, but I think 2 of em are pacifist hippy types.On the normal aggression mapgen settings, yeah. Haven't tried the higher ones, but the setting does exist and may be worth tinkering with, considering that's been my past 2 games as well.
Plus the crazy countries make it really easy for everyone else to be buddies. That +30 or +50 same rival bonus. Heck, even made it too easy for me to make non-aggression pacts and close all the borders.
I only play on high aggression setting now, because otherwise the galaxy tends to become a bit stale.
Of course, Stellaris gameplay follows a pretty predictable path in terms of military buildup, so even with high aggression there's a fair bit of nothing going on, so long as you keep up with the AI military capacity. In my opinion the game could use some events to shake up the AI war declaration decisions.
Post by: Eric Blank on July 06, 2017, 01:29:10 am
A fallen empire, the taknu, decided to become relevant again. Since theyre fanatical xenophiles and pacifists, this means enforcing peace in the galaxy. So their first act, not a month later? To demand i sign their pact and become a vassal. Or die, presumbly, but i didnt want to risk finding out what the punishment for refusing would be. This kicked me from my federation with another state, which has gone on to form a new federation with another nation that refused to join ours because they didnt like me, even though we were great pals and they had maxed out trust and +120 opinion. I dont really understand diplomacy.
Then i saw the taknu fleet. They went out to a system with some pirates in it and obliterated them. The total fleet power estimate was over 200k for their fleet. The next worst ive seen is the space cthulu fallen empire, a fanatical xenophobic authoritarian state, and their "2nd Murder" fleet of 80k that wrecked all my shit when i colonized a planet too close to them. i honestly save scummed when that happened because there was simply nothing i could do, game over try again you know
Maybe i can piss off the other three fallen empires, and since im a protectorate/vassal of the taknu they will defend me? If they take the brunt of the fleet warfare, maybe i can get away with abandoning their treaty or something? In the meantime, im left to colonize everything everywhere, build ships and economy, and develop new technologies.
How reliable are npc allies in coming to your aid? Will they just faff about while youre being wasted?
Post by: Hanzoku on July 06, 2017, 02:48:17 am
Post by: Zangi on July 06, 2017, 06:46:28 am
Aye, I'm actually on high aggression. I also have mods that add in opinion modifiers due to... Policy settings and Civic differences/sameness.Hmmm... There does not seem to be enough instability in my current game. There are like 3 federation blocks, but I think 2 of em are pacifist hippy types.On the normal aggression mapgen settings, yeah. Haven't tried the higher ones, but the setting does exist and may be worth tinkering with, considering that's been my past 2 games as well.
Plus the crazy countries make it really easy for everyone else to be buddies. That +30 or +50 same rival bonus. Heck, even made it too easy for me to make non-aggression pacts and close all the borders.
I only play on high aggression setting now, because otherwise the galaxy tends to become a bit stale.
Of course, Stellaris gameplay follows a pretty predictable path in terms of military buildup, so even with high aggression there's a fair bit of nothing going on, so long as you keep up with the AI military capacity. In my opinion the game could use some events to shake up the AI war declaration decisions.
... Joining a federation then colonizing a few holy Gaia would drag em into that war wouldn't it? What about as an associate?
I've really only been playing as an isolationist type.
Post by: Trekkin on July 06, 2017, 12:35:58 pm
How reliable are npc allies in coming to your aid? Will they just faff about while youre being wasted?
They're fanatical about helping, which is why they can seem so random.
From what I've seen, the AI really doesn't like leaving ships in reserve; given time, they'll throw everything they've got into whatever war they're currently fighting, regardless of whether the additional fleet power will make any significant difference. The changes to Warscore also mean they're reluctant to surrender even when the vast majority of their fleet lies in ruins and their spaceports are all wrecked, so long as they haven't lost many planets yet.
These two factors act in combination to make the actual tonnage an ostensibly committed empire will send to defend you (or attack on your behalf) really variable. Your vassals and/or space liege will send their entire fleet your way, but they may well have all their ships halfway across the galaxy fighting some tiny two-planet empire if not destroyed outright.
I've found that vassals, at least, will supply troops more reliably than they will warships, since they don't need their spaceport infrastructure to create transports en masse and those transports will spawn with their best technology automatically. If you bombard planets down and leave a small force to keep them down, you'll see vassals coming to take them with some reliability.
Post by: Eric Blank on July 06, 2017, 02:14:36 pm
Post by: umiman on July 06, 2017, 02:18:53 pm
The thread has info on how to claim your stuff if you did buy anything.
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 06, 2017, 03:23:49 pm
Whoops looks like USD purchases were not valid for this
Post by: Descan on July 06, 2017, 03:44:10 pm
Not sure if this is actually a defeat, or an advantage, but its screwed up my game plan.The awakened empire federations are... Special. Anything you learn about NPC proclivities and federation mechanics from how they behave may not translate to more generic allies and federation mechanics.
A fallen empire, the taknu, decided to become relevant again. Since theyre fanatical xenophiles and pacifists, this means enforcing peace in the galaxy. So their first act, not a month later? To demand i sign their pact and become a vassal. Or die, presumbly, but i didnt want to risk finding out what the punishment for refusing would be. This kicked me from my federation with another state, which has gone on to form a new federation with another nation that refused to join ours because they didnt like me, even though we were great pals and they had maxed out trust and +120 opinion. I dont really understand diplomacy.
Then i saw the taknu fleet. They went out to a system with some pirates in it and obliterated them. The total fleet power estimate was over 200k for their fleet. The next worst ive seen is the space cthulu fallen empire, a fanatical xenophobic authoritarian state, and their "2nd Murder" fleet of 80k that wrecked all my shit when i colonized a planet too close to them. i honestly save scummed when that happened because there was simply nothing i could do, game over try again you know
Maybe i can piss off the other three fallen empires, and since im a protectorate/vassal of the taknu they will defend me? If they take the brunt of the fleet warfare, maybe i can get away with abandoning their treaty or something? In the meantime, im left to colonize everything everywhere, build ships and economy, and develop new technologies.
How reliable are npc allies in coming to your aid? Will they just faff about while youre being wasted?
Post by: Hanzoku on July 08, 2017, 05:07:24 am
Post by: Culise on July 08, 2017, 06:24:06 am
Inhave to say, forming your own federation involves way too much luck. You have to end up near another civ with basically your exact same ethics, but not too close so you start losing opinion to threat/border friction. Honestly, I think I prefer just to conquer and vassal swarm things instead.Oddly, this is almost precisely how you form your own federation as well: conquer and liberate-swarm. It could use quite a bit of work, I'd say, given that perhaps the biggest example of a federation in sci-fi (The Federation, rather) expanded quite peacefully and even ranks among its founding principles Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. Near-identical ethics should make things easier, but its absence shouldn't be quite the bar it seems to be at present. At least, at present, a bar short of some major threat-building hegemonizing swarm that basically outweighs every other relation modifier by an order of magnitude and thus skews the diplomatic game in all sorts of odd ways.
Especially since said "threat-building hegemonizing swarm" is almost always going to be the player.
Post by: Zangi on July 08, 2017, 07:26:45 am
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=903310693&searchtext=Opinion
Also FML. No wonder why my games are so stable. I have the 'Useful Opinions' mod which makes it much easier for everyone to be buddies.
*Insert complaints about slavery being on the same level as purging when it comes to atrocities.*. They should be separated.
EDIT: I've also vassalized this wanker who has Warp, while I have Hyper. Beat em on virtue of them jumping the gap into my territory/frontier outpost.
Here is the thing though, south of him is clear and unclaimed. Been like that for the first 70 years.
They have left it empty while jumping the gap to my expansion area to build outposts the whole time. Holy fuck does that piss me off. (I resorted to console deleting that shit.)
Now some other random wankers moved in all over their open area.
And the range I shortened on Warp/worm is still not enough. Will nerf it some more.
EDIT2 diplomacy/trade is also a random shit, not even sure when and why I can't demand certain outposts. Especially the ones in the middle of my territory.
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 08, 2017, 01:24:27 pm
One of my best runs was Fanatic Purifier spiritualists that turned Synth. (took some faction finagling, you can't research Synths if you're spiritualist)Not the most implausible one tbh
needless to say that was Ideologically Impure but it was fun to murder everyone in the name of Robo Space Jesus
Fanatical purifiers think all other life is a mistake and must be destroyed, and synths are soulless automatons and the fools who copy their personalities into imperfect machines have killed the beings that were once them - to take the step further and eliminate their own selves in order to better exterminate all life in the cosmos is not that large a leap to make, when you are running from the starting position that life in the cosmos is a cosmic mistake
Inhave to say, forming your own federation involves way too much luck. You have to end up near another civ with basically your exact same ethics, but not too close so you start losing opinion to threat/border friction. Honestly, I think I prefer just to conquer and vassal swarm things instead.The trick is to rush NAPs and other crap, and worse comes to worst send them loads of free shit through the barter system. If you secure a migration treaty it's all ogre. Diplomacy perks mandatory. With the way the faction system works, a militiaristic authoritarian Empire will over time have its peace faction burgeon ridonkulously and if you can chuck charismatic xenos on all their planets all the better, ethos drift will drift them to you
Post by: Spehss _ on July 08, 2017, 09:31:20 pm
Wew that was fun. Blew a bunch of ships up, glassed a planet from orbit, raised invading armies, and convinced the entire population of one of my planets that religion is meaningless and materialism is the answer to war-time woes.
Neat.
Post by: SOLDIER First on July 10, 2017, 01:23:17 am
Post by: Spehss _ on July 10, 2017, 08:42:23 am
Razed?Basically. I bombarded the planet with my fleet for almost an entire ingame year before learning that I need to send armies onto the planet surface to conquer it.
Funny enough, after the dust settled and the war ended I got ownership of the planet, which is inhabitable to my xenophobic lizards, but is habitable to the xenophobic blue smurfs. And a few smurf pops survived the planetary bombardment and are now enslaved members of my empire. Didn't know that could happen.
Post by: Culise on July 10, 2017, 09:47:22 am
Err, do you mean uninhabitable to your lizards, or do you mean that it can be inhabited by both species? Inhabitable/habitable is one of those odd word pairings that can be synonyms rather than antonyms in spite of the "in-" prefix, much like inflammable/flammable. Unfortunately, it is *also* one of those regular word pairings that actually are antonyms due to the "in-" prefix, especially in older works where the Early Modern conflation of "inhabitable" with "able to inhabit" has not yet occurred, which makes it a bit of a headache to parse at times. :PRazed?Basically. I bombarded the planet with my fleet for almost an entire ingame year before learning that I need to send armies onto the planet surface to conquer it.
Funny enough, after the dust settled and the war ended I got ownership of the planet, which is inhabitable to my xenophobic lizards, but is habitable to the xenophobic blue smurfs. And a few smurf pops survived the planetary bombardment and are now enslaved members of my empire. Didn't know that could happen.
But yeah, a surrender by the enemy automatically wins you any of the war conditions you set at the start of the war. If you set that planet as a war goal, that would explain it. If you didn't, I'm not sure.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 10, 2017, 09:54:54 am
I had blue smurfs in my game too, and they were amusingly inept zealous purifiers: http://www.stellariswiki.com/Species#/media/File:Humanoid_03.png
Apparently they aren't a preset race, so it was just random chance.
Post by: Spehss _ on July 10, 2017, 11:03:22 am
I did demand the planet be ceded as a war demand, but didn't know that meant I got the planet and its inhabitants as members of my empire. Initially I just wanted the smurfs to get away from my borders. My lizards can't inhabit the planet but the smurfs can. So I now have a colonized planet in my empire that will basically be a planet dedicated to producing slave pops, because they're the only ones who can live there. My lizards need hot planets and the smurfs need cold planets.
It sounds pretty neat though. Xenophobe lizards taking xenophobe blue people as slaves in war and using them to colonize and exploit planets that the lizards can't inhabit. I might start bullying the blue people empire for war slaves every once in a while now.
Post by: Zangi on July 10, 2017, 11:13:00 am
Allows you to force them to vacate colonies as a war demand. ... Well, there are 2 versions of vacating.
Also gives the option to take their pops as slaves.
Post by: Trekkin on July 10, 2017, 02:34:48 pm
The mod you probably want is NovelWarGoals.
Allows you to force them to vacate colonies as a war demand. ... Well, there are 2 versions of vacating.
Also gives the option to take their pops as slaves.
Can't you already enslave their pops, though, just by setting slavery as your default rights setting and getting planets ceded to you?
Post by: Zangi on July 10, 2017, 03:49:33 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 10, 2017, 04:14:56 pm
Post by: Descan on July 10, 2017, 09:42:58 pm
I initially typed "inhospitable" but changed "hospitable" to "habitable" without thinking too much.Once you get genetic modification, you can ship some pops off to a cold planet, modify them to be cold-planet-habitating (and vice-versa for the cold slaves). You only need to do it once per species per planet type, on a planet without any pops except the 2 from colonization (if you have Utopia + traditions), and just designate that world as breeding colonies of slaves and overseers that you then resettle on the worlds you want them on.
I did demand the planet be ceded as a war demand, but didn't know that meant I got the planet and its inhabitants as members of my empire. Initially I just wanted the smurfs to get away from my borders. My lizards can't inhabit the planet but the smurfs can. So I now have a colonized planet in my empire that will basically be a planet dedicated to producing slave pops, because they're the only ones who can live there. My lizards need hot planets and the smurfs need cold planets.
It sounds pretty neat though. Xenophobe lizards taking xenophobe blue people as slaves in war and using them to colonize and exploit planets that the lizards can't inhabit. I might start bullying the blue people empire for war slaves every once in a while now.
So you'll have some superior pops to go on the research facilities and energy plants of the cold worlds your slaves inhabit, and you'll have some hot-world habitating slaves to work the mines and farms of your core worlds. Or depending on the type of slavery, to use as servants or foodstocks or whatever you wish.
If you can't inhabit a cold world at all because you lack the techs, you can take the pops on a fresh colony (which has very few pops on it, thereby lowering the cost) and temporarily give them extremely adaptable and a couple bad traits. Then use them to colonize the cold world, change them up to be the proper traits and proper habitability, and fix the pops on the fresh colony back to non-adaptable and whatever traits you start with.
(this kinda thing is why I like bio-ascension; it's fun to modify your pops!)
Post by: Zangi on July 11, 2017, 11:44:05 am
Could you use that to make the empire give you pops that aren't/won't be slaves? Like demanding that they return your own people who have been enslaved.https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=687477152
Yes
EDIT:
Alright, so missiles are the shite tier weapon of Stellaris cause PD and probably some other AI shit like overkill ain't it? It is very very awesome when it comes to blowing up starports...
It is a world of difference between a 12 month bombardment with shite 'L' kinetic weapons on very costly ships versus getting into Torpedo range with my 'S'/'T' Corvettes and watching it melt.
Can't say I hate the visual missile spam either.
... It is either me or they have a very very high chance of hitting Corvettes too. At least my dodgy type Corvettes tend to melt against missile races and defensive structures.
Post by: Trekkin on July 11, 2017, 12:44:24 pm
(this kinda thing is why I like bio-ascension; it's fun to modify your pops!)
I'm waiting for Capek to try messing with it too much myself; templates look like they'll save me a lot of time.
Post by: lemon10 on July 11, 2017, 05:55:16 pm
Firstly point defense murders them. This isn't that big a deal for the most part though due to the fact that for the most part enemy ships don't have any on them.
Secondly, their attacks take forever to actually reach the enemy. Whereas most weapons will reach the enemy functionally instantly. Yes, they do have a longer range but it doesn't really make up for it. During this time your enemies will continue to make attacks like normal because they are ya know, still alive.
Finally, they can overtarget enemies due to their attacks taking forever to reach the enemy (with extra attacks simply exploding after the enemy they target being killed). This means that a substantial portion of damage simply does nothing as its wasted (and watching a bunch of missiles just explode because their target is already dead is quite irritating). This will apparently be fixed when the next patch comes out however.
Note however that Torpedos are explosive weapons they are not quite the same as regular missiles, most notably because they deal damage entirely differently (in that they ignore 50% armor and 100% of shields).
In their defense missile weapons *do* have a very high hit chance though, which does make dodging them much more difficult.
Post by: Spehss _ on July 11, 2017, 06:26:36 pm
Only other benefit I see is some resistance to damage that is weak to shields.
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 11, 2017, 06:28:18 pm
Ships that don't take hull damage don't need to go repair and will be at full strength once shields regen
Post by: Mephansteras on July 11, 2017, 06:39:22 pm
Post by: lemon10 on July 11, 2017, 06:54:45 pm
Is there much benefit to energy shield ship components like deflectors or shields? It seems they just provide extra hull points in a fight. I don't think I've ever seen a shield recharge during a fight.Sheilds definitely do regenerate in a fight. It is simply that you don't really see it happening typically to the fact that either A) The ship is taking less damage then its shields regen so its effectively taking no damage at all, which is what often happens when enemy focus is split or B) the ship is taking substantially more damage then its regen, so you simply see it losing health and don't see the regen either.
Only other benefit I see is some resistance to damage that is weak to shields.
The regen *is* definitely significant (especially on larger ships) however, as is the regen gain from sheild capacitors (with two of them doubling base sheild regen).
They are also different from armor in that they deal with different weapons differently (eg. lasers do less damage against sheilds, disruptors deal far more, torpedos bypass sheilds entirely, while plasma cannons deal significantly less against sheilds but basically ignore armor). If you just have shields or armor enemies *can* (but the AI won't) focus their weapons to ones more effective against you.
Some special enemies also have lots of shields or lots of armor, and its important to pick your weapons against them accordingly.
There is also a defensive station module that regens the shields of friendly ships in its area. Which is...not all that helpful given that defense stations usually get focus-fired down super fast in fights, but it is a thing I've used a few times. Helps a little bit, especially if you have other stations in the area that might get shot at first.Yeah, its not all that helpful. I personally prefer the ones weaken the enemy ships (eg. -15% fire rate or the -25% enemy sheild health) as well as the default subspace snare to the ones that slightly improve yours.
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 12, 2017, 06:16:31 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Helps that the galaxy in this one is pretty horrifying. I lmao'd when my peaceful hive mind neighbour turned into a devouring swarm. They went overnight from an upstanding member of the galactic community to OM NOM NOM NOM
*EDIT
Oh cool
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Zangi on July 12, 2017, 10:20:27 am
Post by: Mephansteras on July 12, 2017, 11:31:14 am
Post by: Zangi on July 12, 2017, 01:46:59 pm
Now I see that a number of those fixes are coming in next update. I have a nice game full of purifiers and other similar crazies too.
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 12, 2017, 05:49:52 pm
A pity that habitats are... indestructible? (Or is it?)They're destructible if you are a belligerent foe, as you can destroy habitats with a wargoal. As these xenos enclaves are independent factions, you can destroy them if you want (but why would you want to kill these defenceless xenos?)
@Loud Whispers: That is brilliant and I kinda want to do that now.Thanks!
Update on the enclaves, so far I have two of them. The first is led by the Ugarlak, a species of proletariat industrialists who command 5 habitats and total 60 xenos pops. Sharing their Empire with one molluscoid and one plantoid species, the Ugarlak formed a peaceful, if brutally authoritarian police state - with a grand bureaucracy quelling any dissent from the plantoid pacifists and molluscoid industrialists.
The second was considerably more intricate in its experimentation. Its founding pops came from the Ekwynian Empire, a race of mammalian xenophiles who formed a close relationship with the neighbouring moth-people called the Naftkanians, and themselves formed the southern frontier of a grand federation that was particularly concerned with destroying my Imperial lineage, and replacing it with a democratic regime. Honestly I was rather content to let them be, but they continued expanding and wouldn't let my ships through a northern pass to protect my protectorates. As the southern route was cut off by my hiveminded ally turning into a devouring swarm, I had to declare my first ever war to secure this route. The war was successful, seizing the minimal planets required (only 2), and all of the Ekwynian planets on my border were liberated under a new regime. Unfortunately this new regime became fanatical purifiers, and all of the worlds which were inhabited by a multicultural population were plunged into civil war as this fanatical regime tried to exterminate them - resulting in a split between the East Ekwynian and West Ekwynian Empires.
Thus, with pops subsumed from other peacefully assimilated Empires, the second enclave was born. This one contained 5 species in total, only they were so unique as to be all sub-species of other species. Thus there were 8 variants of pops all in this enclave, with some having latent psionic abilities unlocked by my ascended species. Once that enclave was given independence, they began developing as a theocratic monarchy of mechanist scientists, the Ekwynian species being an altogether intelligent race of physicists engineered by us to be natural researchers.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
To compound matters, a single Ekwynian pop remained under my control, this one unlocking its full psionic potential to become the only fully psionic Ekwynian pop in the galaxy. Neither West Ekwynia nor East Ekwynia has developed full psionic potential. Thus, I am thinking, if a third enclave is hosted by the sole psionic Ekwynian community... Can the materialist and spiritualist transcendence paths be reconciled? Amusingly, the single psionic Ekwynian I have is called the Ultra-Ekwynian Superior. It has gotten a bit mad with power.
Can these xenos enclaves create machines with true souls, more connected to the shroud than most of the living? Rather tragically, after I conquered those two planets, three Empires I previously had peaceful relations with grew threatened and cut off their borders to me. I now have to absorb even more Empires, which shall at the least, mean I have more test subjects to see if it is possible to create the Ultra-Mega-Ekwynian Superior
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 12, 2017, 10:05:24 pm
Keep going LW, I follow your story with bated breath (and rustled jimmies)
Post by: Zangi on July 13, 2017, 09:47:55 am
... Well, they are mildly ok if they are part of a military station defense network, but only cause my current enemies don't have pd/flak and they get off more attacks cause range.
Plus that 1 military station they spawn on top of being closer, but then I'm better off with other weapons there cause instant damage is still better then waiting 5 days for my missiles to maybe hit that.
Facing off against fleets with more then just corvettes/destroyers? Equal-ish power rating? Overwhelming loss.
Which also explains why starport missiles are so lethal against muh corvettes. They got swarm setting so they sitting right on top of the starport. Less then a day travel time, which is less pd opportunities for my frigates.
Maybe cause I don't like where the habitat is located.A pity that habitats are... indestructible? (Or is it?)They're destructible if you are a belligerent foe, as you can destroy habitats with a wargoal. As these xenos enclaves are independent factions, you can destroy them if you want (but why would you want to kill these defenceless xenos?)
All the justification I need.
Post by: Teneb on July 13, 2017, 10:31:01 am
Spoiler: You know, I really dislike when people misuse 's to do plurals (click to show/hide)
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 13, 2017, 11:32:53 am
Keep going LW, I follow your story with bated breath (and rustled jimmies)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
ALL PSIONIC POTENTIAL UNLOCKED
ALL GENETIC POTENTIAL UNLOCKED
CYBERNETIC ENHANCEMENTS IMPLANTED
Upon the success of the first enclaves I had made it my mission to collect the rarest xenos specimens, preserved for all time in my paradise habitat enclaves, distrusting the foreign federations to keep the peace and preserve galactic life. Three centuries of work and effort, bringing all of these xenos willingly (at least, mostly), into the peaceful perfection of my inescapable Empire. With baited breath I watched, my immortal leaders patrolling and observing their data banks and orbiting habitats, watching with concern and intrigue as the species modified themselves with cybernetic implants. We could not have known they would do this.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So proud and so foolish were these religious mechanists. It had perhaps been better for them to have been devoured by the Jhoolian Swarm long ago. Now the doom is fulfilled, and their warrior drones fly forth from their habitat - they will be disassembled, and this calamity completed.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 13, 2017, 12:16:48 pm
Post by: Spehss _ on July 13, 2017, 12:43:40 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 13, 2017, 12:54:19 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 13, 2017, 06:12:59 pm
Dev Diary #77 - Ethics Voice Packs (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-77-ethics-voice-packs.1035192/)I'm not a huge fan of the dogs of war quote, loathe as I am to agree with Youtube.Spoiler: You know, I really dislike when people misuse 's to do plurals (click to show/hide)
Different VIR will be nice though.
Post by: Teneb on July 13, 2017, 06:32:22 pm
Yeah. That militarist was more like a Warhammer-esque Chaos cultist ("Blood for the Blood God!") than an actual member of the military. So I'm guessing the spiritualist one will go off about Deus Vult.Dev Diary #77 - Ethics Voice Packs (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-77-ethics-voice-packs.1035192/)I'm not a huge fan of the dogs of war quote, loathe as I am to agree with Youtube.Spoiler: You know, I really dislike when people misuse 's to do plurals (click to show/hide)
Different VIR will be nice though.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2017, 07:09:19 pm
Post by: Trekkin on July 13, 2017, 09:09:03 pm
Yeah. That militarist was more like a Warhammer-esque Chaos cultist ("Blood for the Blood God!") than an actual member of the military. So I'm guessing the spiritualist one will go off about Deus Vult.
Yeah, given the nature of combat in Stellaris, that much aggression doesn't say "An appreciation of warfare is a core tenet of our culture" to me. Rather, it says "I have been chained to my captain's chair after yet another attempt to fire myself out the airlock at our enemy with swords drawn."
Sure, it's crazy, but I don't think it's the right kind of crazy for a world where most combat involves plotting a firing solution at a tiny speck millions of kilometers away before they kill you with physics. "Let slip the target motion analysis algorithms of protracted long-range bombardment" lacks the same ring, though.
If you were to encapsulate Stellaris-style militarism in a set of phrases, I'd perhaps try for overconfident pugnacity rather than enthusiastic bloodthirst. Like having them alert you of a war declaration by saying "another species has asked to die by our hand" or something, the sort of thing you could read as either viscera-munching blood simplicity or supreme self-esteem depending on how you saw your militarists.
Post by: Descan on July 13, 2017, 09:34:26 pm
It might also only be for *fanatic* militarists, which would probably be closer to the sentiment.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 13, 2017, 09:42:14 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 13, 2017, 10:42:28 pm
They could leave the lines in and just redo the defaults. Someone out there is playing Khornates that would absolutely do something that stupid.Yeah. That militarist was more like a Warhammer-esque Chaos cultist ("Blood for the Blood God!") than an actual member of the military. So I'm guessing the spiritualist one will go off about Deus Vult.
Yeah, given the nature of combat in Stellaris, that much aggression doesn't say "An appreciation of warfare is a core tenet of our culture" to me. Rather, it says "I have been chained to my captain's chair after yet another attempt to fire myself out the airlock at our enemy with swords drawn."
It's also a fucking hilarious image. I just have this image of her smacking into the windows of some bird ship and they just stare at each other as she slides around the ship on the sound of squaking glass, punching away at the transparent aluminum as she does.
"Let slip the target motion analysis algorithms of protracted long-range bombardment" lacks the same ring, though.I could totally see this being said by a Materialist though with some sardonic dryness to it though. Best coupled with a posh English accent and a cushy space-chair.
Post by: Culise on July 13, 2017, 11:43:05 pm
EDIT: Oh, also, spoilers for Star Trek VI in the above in case you haven't seen it since its release in...1991? Heavens, it's already been over 25 years? Oy. >_< Any rate, spoilers for the final battle.
Post by: Hanzoku on July 14, 2017, 01:01:36 am
I imagine that I'm exporting Terran junkfood to the galaxy at large, addicting alien races to greasy fast food and bad takeout.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on July 14, 2017, 05:44:17 am
Post by: GiglameshDespair on July 14, 2017, 06:06:14 am
Jesus weeps.
Post by: Ghazkull on July 14, 2017, 06:33:13 am
It probably would be best to have two versions of the militarists, one representing a disciplined military (perhaps some posh british officer accent, or even something german accented) and one representing BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD type war hordes.
For the disciplined ones something along the lines of: "Hah, amateurs, clearly they have not studied the Art of War" - "Execute Formation Delta-3, Full Spread" - "Begin Strategic Orbital Support Fire - Collateral Damage is Acceptable" - "Contact High Command: We will be Home by Christmas"
In short an entire blue-eyed early World War I view on war would fit a disciplined militarist in my eyes.
If you go Authoritarian Militarist, something Soviety/German would fit quite well and if you have Egalitarian you could throw in Tau.
just what i would do with it though. Anyway the voices are great if a bit out of character.
Post by: Shadowgandor on July 14, 2017, 06:47:36 am
Post by: Teneb on July 14, 2017, 06:55:11 am
It would probably be best if you could select your own voice instead of it being determined by ethics. If I want my materialists to be voiced by an insane character, or fanatic militaristic with an angelic voice, I should be allowed to do that.Paradox has outright stated you can.
The sexism bit is silly. Pretty much everyone who complained about the militarist voice is complaining about the line, not the actual voice actor.
Post by: Draignean on July 14, 2017, 08:50:08 am
Hmm i like the womans voice, but its a bit unfitting for a disciplined military officer. If it is i don't know a Space Pirate or a bunch of Honorbound Warriors or basically what i am usually playing it would fit. But yeah as said before, a wee bit less Khornate Warrior would be nice, then again imagine this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-gSJW3sHXE) playing for your entire fleet.
It probably would be best to have two versions of the militarists, one representing a disciplined military (perhaps some posh british officer accent, or even something german accented) and one representing BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD type war hordes.
For the disciplined ones something along the lines of: "Hah, amateurs, clearly they have not studied the Art of War" - "Execute Formation Delta-3, Full Spread" - "Begin Strategic Orbital Support Fire - Collateral Damage is Acceptable" - "Contact High Command: We will be Home by Christmas"
In short an entire blue-eyed early World War I view on war would fit a disciplined militarist in my eyes.
If you go Authoritarian Militarist, something Soviety/German would fit quite well and if you have Egalitarian you could throw in Tau.
just what i would do with it though. Anyway the voices are great if a bit out of character.
Voice it with whoever you want, but Gen. Mattis would be a pretty damn good example for the militarist lines.
"I come in peace. I didnt bring artillery. But Im pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you fuck with me, Ill kill you all."
"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet."
"You are part of the world's most feared and trusted force. Engage your brain before you engage your weapon."
"There are hunters and there are victims. By your discipline, cunning, obedience and alertness, you will decide if you are a hunter or a victim."
"No war is over until the enemy says it's over. We may think it over, we may declare it over, but in fact, the enemy gets a vote."
"Im going to plead with you, do not cross us. Because if you do, the survivors will write about what we do here for 10,000 years."
Post by: Hanzoku on July 14, 2017, 09:04:08 am
Post by: Zangi on July 14, 2017, 10:08:29 am
You don't get that many opportunities to get into some good ol fashioned blood and guts on a space ship, especially when there is no boarding combat.
But yea, there are tons of different flavors of militarists out there...
Post by: Rolan7 on July 14, 2017, 11:10:31 am
:P
I could see the line in an authoritarian enough society, where the noble "in command" is so many layers divorced from the actual business of war, that they simply shout zealous nonsense (which inspires their people to greater efforts). Or maybe in a psionic society where a "two minute hate" might actually help re-cycle the cannons faster.
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 14, 2017, 11:51:01 am
Right now the way the line is spoken and the content of the line itself are incredibly biased towards making the militarist empires Always Evil, which just won't fit some galaxies and doesn't even match with real life half the time.
Post by: umiman on July 14, 2017, 12:53:26 pm
This wouldn't be a problem if they had more than the amount of digits on our hands.
Post by: Zangi on July 14, 2017, 02:13:21 pm
Maybe there are a lot of people hating on the voice being a female, I just looked at the first and last page of that Paradox thread.
Either way, I don't particularly care. As long as the other features/bugfixes work.
Post by: Culise on July 14, 2017, 02:44:02 pm
Maybe instead of being focused on how bring a militaristic has a female voice, they should instead be wondering how useless Paradox has become if they think 10 voices is enough to justify content.Eh. The story pack should contain more than just the voices, I'd expect, given that they haven't even reached the point where they have announced a name for it yet. This is just a quick "feature" that popped up right quick. I'll reserve judgment on whether it's useful based on what else the story pack contains and how soon it goes on sale after release. If I had any reason to expect that this is the entire content of the story pack, though, I'd say that voices sure as sin aren't enough to make me buy in based on that alone. If that ends up being the case, this can nicely sit aside to join...hmmm, actually, quite a bit. Most non-free sprite packs in past games, the Plantoids for this game, and so forth.
This wouldn't be a problem if they had more than the amount of digits on our hands.
Post by: Teneb on July 14, 2017, 03:20:45 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 16, 2017, 05:18:41 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Ultimuh on July 16, 2017, 11:03:08 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 18, 2017, 03:38:06 pm
Hmm i like the womans voice, but its a bit unfitting for a disciplined military officer. If it is i don't know a Space Pirate or a bunch of Honorbound Warriors or basically what i am usually playing it would fit. But yeah as said before, a wee bit less Khornate Warrior would be nice, then again imagine this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-gSJW3sHXE) playing for your entire fleet.
It probably would be best to have two versions of the militarists, one representing a disciplined military (perhaps some posh british officer accent, or even something german accented) and one representing BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD type war hordes.
For the disciplined ones something along the lines of: "Hah, amateurs, clearly they have not studied the Art of War" - "Execute Formation Delta-3, Full Spread" - "Begin Strategic Orbital Support Fire - Collateral Damage is Acceptable" - "Contact High Command: We will be Home by Christmas"
In short an entire blue-eyed early World War I view on war would fit a disciplined militarist in my eyes.
If you go Authoritarian Militarist, something Soviety/German would fit quite well and if you have Egalitarian you could throw in Tau.
just what i would do with it though. Anyway the voices are great if a bit out of character.
actually you've just outlined exactly why militarist and pacifist shouldn't be ethos at all. they only make sense in context of other ethos, and not on their own. any kind of description of a military implies some other kind of ethos as well.
Post by: Mephansteras on July 18, 2017, 03:45:27 pm
Post by: umiman on July 18, 2017, 05:09:00 pm
actually you've just outlined exactly why militarist and pacifist shouldn't be ethos at all. they only make sense in context of other ethos, and not on their own. any kind of description of a military implies some other kind of ethos as well.Literally every single thing in this universe exists only when observed relative to another.
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 18, 2017, 08:43:32 pm
Flawless planning, I know. :P
Post by: Descan on July 18, 2017, 10:38:25 pm
From the "Religion = PSYCHIC POWERS IN SUBSPACE" weirdness to the "Every single species is the same Space Religion and is buddy buddy" (What, heretics and heathens aren't a thing?) to the "Materialists love robots and spiritualists love psychics and Never The Twain Shall Meet" weirdness, to the research bonus to materialist (that kinda makes sense but it's really imbalanced, it makes not picking materialist kind of feel like a handicap.)
What they *should* do is instead have Internal vs. External, or Mind vs. Matter, where the ethics are that the species is concerned with the mental, their culture and their brains, and get a 10% boost to Society, and the other ethic is concern with the external world, and a 10% boost to Engineering (and a 5% boost to physics for both of them :v) (This is ALSO assuming they really wanna keep their Psykers vs. Robots thing going on, which I guess more power to them? It just feels tacked on to the spiritualist/materialist thing they started with when the game came out.)
And then have a seperate system for religion (or lack of religion, and have all the Materialist responses to events simply be the Atheistic [lack of] Religion response), because a) religion colours everything, and any single ethic could be religous, and b) Everyone Worships Psychic Space Jesus in Space?
Post by: Egan_BW on July 18, 2017, 11:39:08 pm
"Every single species is the same Space Religion and is buddy buddy"Praise Spode!
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 19, 2017, 04:36:27 pm
Post by: scriver on July 19, 2017, 04:46:06 pm
Designing your own ships is fun, except when the last Gallowglass-class Corvette ships for some reason was designed without putting in any FTL engine, which was only realized - following the embarrassing defeat against Decadent Space Empire had seen all previous Gallowglass was destroyed - after the navy had been hastily replenished to not allow the two bordering Space Nations to take advantage of the situation, and every single ship had to be upgraded directly after their construction.
An investigative committee has been launched to find the reason this was not noticed earlier.
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 19, 2017, 09:25:52 pm
The L. Ron Hubbard update? Update Lucas? I dunno...
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 19, 2017, 09:36:03 pm
Post by: Persus13 on July 19, 2017, 09:43:26 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 19, 2017, 10:10:34 pm
Post by: Aedel on July 20, 2017, 08:40:05 am
I like to change my ethos and government to match my overlord when I feel like i'm gonna be a vassal for the long run, but its a true pain if I can't get a faction with significant support to show up.
Post by: StagnantSoul on July 20, 2017, 08:48:30 am
Post by: Hanzoku on July 20, 2017, 09:09:41 am
That said, I'm at the stage where I'm the 1000-pound gorilla on the galactic stage, and I wiped out another nation's navy with half of mine without losses, while the other half was busy conquering another system. My
Post by: Persus13 on July 20, 2017, 09:37:28 am
Post by: Teneb on July 20, 2017, 09:53:46 am
Do federations have any special events at all? There'd be a lot of potential for some Star Trek references if there was.I don't think so.
Also, another benefit is that they make it easier to win, since you need to wipe/vassalize less empires.
Post by: Putnam on July 20, 2017, 12:00:15 pm
Post by: StagnantSoul on July 20, 2017, 12:32:41 pm
Post by: Teneb on July 20, 2017, 02:13:08 pm
Spoiler: Domo Arigato, Mr Roblorgo (click to show/hide)
Robots look like they'll be awesome now. And apparently RIP naked corvette.
Post by: StagnantSoul on July 20, 2017, 02:18:39 pm
Can't wait to try out the new robot stuff, it's going to be fun as hell. Designing each robot specifically will be great.
Post by: Cruxador on July 21, 2017, 01:42:29 am
Also, I keep reading "positronic" as "postironic" and imagining hipster robots.
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 21, 2017, 08:15:21 am
Seems like the robot update is "give them the good bit of Biological" mostly. I hope this means there's going to be new biological goodies and not just shafting the path that would be coolest if it got proper development."I was calculating pi to the 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000th digit before it was cool."
Also, I keep reading "positronic" as "postironic" and imagining hipster robots.
Post by: Sirus on July 21, 2017, 08:51:23 am
Post by: umiman on July 21, 2017, 12:04:12 pm
"My shell is made from reclaimed metal and sustainably produced bio-degradeable plastics. I only charge my batteries with renewable energy sources."Humans.
Post by: Zangi on July 21, 2017, 12:49:55 pm
Sentient AI that experiences happiness and other biological emotions."My shell is made from reclaimed metal and sustainably produced bio-degradeable plastics. I only charge my batteries with renewable energy sources."Humans.
Post by: Hanzoku on July 21, 2017, 01:07:51 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 21, 2017, 01:21:24 pm
Seems like the robot update is "give them the good bit of Biological" mostly. I hope this means there's going to be new biological goodies and not just shafting the path that would be coolest if it got proper development.They did acknowledge that this will make robotic ascension more powerful and so as part of 1.8 they'll do a balance pass on the other paths as well.
Also, I keep reading "positronic" as "postironic" and imagining hipster robots.
Post by: Cruxador on July 22, 2017, 07:15:37 am
I'm not talking about power or balance. I don't care about that since I don't play this game competitively. I'm talking about depth and uniqueness of play experience.Seems like the robot update is "give them the good bit of Biological" mostly. I hope this means there's going to be new biological goodies and not just shafting the path that would be coolest if it got proper development.They did acknowledge that this will make robotic ascension more powerful and so as part of 1.8 they'll do a balance pass on the other paths as well.
Also, I keep reading "positronic" as "postironic" and imagining hipster robots.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 22, 2017, 12:46:30 pm
Post by: IcyTea31 on July 22, 2017, 04:25:57 pm
I wonder if there's going to be a biological equivalent to domestic protocols...There already is in Utopia, in the form of the 'Domestic Servitude' slavery type set in species rights.
Post by: umiman on July 22, 2017, 04:36:00 pm
I wonder if there's going to be a biological equivalent to domestic protocols...Must... resist... low... hanging... sexist... joke...
Post by: Teneb on July 22, 2017, 04:38:40 pm
I wonder if the owner system the robots have going for them will extend to some slave types.I wonder if there's going to be a biological equivalent to domestic protocols...There already is in Utopia, in the form of the 'Domestic Servitude' slavery type set in species rights.
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 23, 2017, 04:22:36 pm
Loud Whispers, you should really pitch that swarm idea to Paradox. Maybe they can make it more stable if they ever implement it? ;)One can hope
Post by: Cruxador on July 23, 2017, 11:53:32 pm
Unfortunately, only way to get an idea into the base game I to make a very successful overhaul mid that uses it, or to get it into several such mods, and it's too early in the development cycle for that to be a thing anyway.Loud Whispers, you should really pitch that swarm idea to Paradox. Maybe they can make it more stable if they ever implement it? ;)One can hope
Post by: Teneb on July 27, 2017, 11:53:09 am
Spoiler: RIP Naked Corvette (click to show/hide)
My guess is the next DD is the announcement for the expansion.
Post by: Sirus on July 27, 2017, 12:02:34 pm
Post by: GiglameshDespair on July 27, 2017, 02:07:32 pm
Post by: Culise on July 27, 2017, 02:30:20 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on July 27, 2017, 03:59:02 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 27, 2017, 05:30:18 pm
Post by: Teneb on July 27, 2017, 06:03:58 pm
Also an enigmatic fortress is right in the middle of my territory. And a ruined dyson sphere!
I think this one will be the run where I wipe out all other species in the galaxy. Maybe even knock out one of the end-game threat achievements (I did manage to defeat the AI in 1.0, but I didn't realize that for that one you need to actually let them grow to get the infiltrators and the 'chiev) and the victory one.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 27, 2017, 06:59:42 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 27, 2017, 07:04:33 pm
If you make a ship with the picket behavior, no point defence weapons, and heavy armor, will it intentionally facetank missiles?Probably would facetank everything
I guess with some modding you could make destroyers capable of carrying a minefield aura with range of 0.1 but insane damage at a slow rate, so you could have a simmulation of dedicated kamakaze ships that fly into the enemy fleet to asplode (see if pd can stop that)
Post by: Egan_BW on July 27, 2017, 07:07:09 pm
Post by: Descan on July 27, 2017, 11:30:38 pm
Really it would make more sense to have behaviours divorced from ship computers and hulls, so that a destroyer need not always be a picket ship nor a battleship need always be a sniper or a corvette be the only good shipI mean that's how it started, having them divorced. I still don't really know why they changed it...
Post by: Cruxador on July 28, 2017, 01:14:25 am
Because with them divorced, it was optimal to only use one class, and they didn't know how else to change that aside from tinkering with balance to make it a different one class.Really it would make more sense to have behaviours divorced from ship computers and hulls, so that a destroyer need not always be a picket ship nor a battleship need always be a sniper or a corvette be the only good shipI mean that's how it started, having them divorced. I still don't really know why they changed it...
Post by: Teneb on July 28, 2017, 11:16:17 am
Post by: umiman on July 28, 2017, 12:00:14 pm
Outside Context (invade Earth during a World War)Can you imagine how much this would suck?
"Why?! Why did you come and invade us?!"
"Achievement"
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 29, 2017, 09:49:49 am
Xenophile FE gave me a battleship, I discovered that neat little ancient buddy event, and that gave me a cool ship, and I've explored most of the galaxy and still haven't met more than 5 empires. Things are looking quite good for the United Nations.
Now if only it didn't take unfathomably long for me to uplift this damn primitive species.
Post by: Descan on July 29, 2017, 01:09:23 pm
Enlighten? Infiltrate? Those are more to do with primitive civilizations. They have different terms for different actions, so mixing them up like that is confusing.
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 29, 2017, 04:46:50 pm
I uplifted some cute little lizard dudes though, so now hopefully they'll spread to all my arid/desert/savannah worlds.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on July 29, 2017, 04:55:59 pm
Yeah, enlighten. Sorry.
I uplifted some cute little lizard dudes though, so now hopefully they'll spread to all my arid/desert/savannah worlds.
You can forcibly move them! It's faster, and crushes their perception of independence at the same time!
Post by: BurnedToast on July 30, 2017, 01:12:53 am
Then... a fallen empire woke up and declared war on our space federation. Actually first they gobbled up some other empire (so they have a bunch of planets) then they declared war on us.
They have a really massive fleet - ~366,000 strength, and a second fleet ~200,000 strength, and they are building a third fleet (~15,000 so far). My fleet is ~30,000 and my allies are all less than that (~15,000 max) so there's absolutely no way we can possibly beat them in a straight up fight.
I'm managing to hold them off by basically abusing the broken stupid AI - I fly a single corvette into their home territory, which triggers every single enemy ship to retreat to defend, then I fly my main fleet in to blow something up somewhere else. It's.... sort of working, but honestly I'm stalling for time and not much else - they are too fast, I don't have time to bombard anything, and blowing up outposts etc does not give any warscore (...why? attacking the enemy economy should give something) so it's basically just a matter of time before I'm a little bit too slow and get blown apart (already had a few close calls).
My allies are completely, 100% useless. I don't know what they are doing, but it seems like a whole lot of nothing. Despite the fact I'm tying up both enemy fleets almost 100% of the time, they aren't attacking anywhere or capturing anything, just flying their fleets around in circles in their own territory.
I don't know what to do. I'm already sitting at basically max fleet cap - I'm leveling up my last few spaceports to max, but I'm not going to squeeze more than 2,000 more fleet power out of that at best. Tech progression does not seem to make enough of a difference to matter either - I'm not going to double my power so just forget about getting the 10x more power I need.
Is this game lost? And if yes - is there any way to actually beat them, or is it just a fancy "game over, you lose" screen?
Post by: Descan on July 30, 2017, 02:05:28 am
Post by: BurnedToast on July 30, 2017, 11:21:57 am
What do they want in the war?
12 of my ally's planets
Edit: I managed to sneak cap a planet which pushed us up to (barely) positive warscore and earned us a white peace, so we've got some time. Still not sure what to do about the situation long-term.
Post by: Draignean on July 30, 2017, 11:26:13 am
What do they want in the war?12 of my ally's planets
What's that you say, they don't want anything important?
Post by: umiman on July 30, 2017, 01:26:28 pm
That would have been day 1 surrender for me.What do they want in the war?
12 of my ally's planets
Like, the moment they called me, I would have surrendered it.
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 30, 2017, 02:04:25 pm
Their time is over! Yours is nigh!
Post by: Descan on July 30, 2017, 03:29:36 pm
Obviously the more debris you scan the easier it is to unlock the techs, but even just one debris lets you research it on your own.
Post by: Sirus on July 30, 2017, 04:25:29 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 30, 2017, 10:07:02 pm
FE's always have top-tier tech though, so no matter what he gets it should be at least the next tier above, if not two or even three jumps ahead. Shields, Armor, Lances, Lasers, whatever they're using is probably way beyond what he should have at that stage of the game.
If you get two or three debris fields it should be enough to get all the major techs.
Post by: BurnedToast on July 30, 2017, 10:44:39 pm
The debris field will give you a set of techs randomly selected from the specific bits of debris at the site. You can look at it when you hover your cursor over the debris in question.
FE's always have top-tier tech though, so no matter what he gets it should be at least the next tier above, if not two or even three jumps ahead. Shields, Armor, Lances, Lasers, whatever they're using is probably way beyond what he should have at that stage of the game.
If you get two or three debris fields it should be enough to get all the major techs.
I did manage to salvage some debris leftover after I ambushed a small fleet. I got.... T3 point defense, neutron armor (which I already had half researched) and the top(?) tier of ship computer. Yay?
Well it's all moot now. I got attacked by a prethoryn (?) swarm and was utterly and completely wiped out in less than a year.
I don't know how I feel about this. I get it, losing is fun, do better next time, etc.... but ffs, that was a 30+ hour game, lost in something like 15 minutes due to something completely out of my control that I had no chance to prepare for (I like to play games as spoiler free as possible) and absolutely no chance to beat no matter what I did.
I don't know, it just felt so hollow.
Post by: Descan on July 31, 2017, 02:19:35 am
Post by: Shadowgandor on July 31, 2017, 02:52:21 am
To be fair, the end-game crises are balanced for a more... Um. Developed player. 30k by the time the swarm arrives is rather lack-luster, tbh.
I had 170k and it was still quite lacklustre. Didn't wipe me out but instead easily wiped them out before they could even become a threat. This game has so much potential but most of the things in game feel like near-misses, mostly due to lack of character of your empire (look at Sword of the Stars for a well done example) and lacklustre AI. Here's hoping the next patch will fix these things, as seems to be the case.
Post by: BurnedToast on July 31, 2017, 01:28:36 pm
To be fair, the end-game crises are balanced for a more... Um. Developed player. 30k by the time the swarm arrives is rather lack-luster, tbh.
Yeah, it was my first game so I was slow getting started that's for sure. But it's not like I was that far behind - if we don't count the awakened empire I was actually in second place for fleet strength (and planets, I think), the only AI stronger than me had a ~100k stack which still probably would not have been enough.
It's frustrating because by every measure available to me I was actually doing relatively good, but then it turns out somehow the whole galaxy is actually falling behind an invisible schedule that you don't, and can't (without spoilers) even know exists or measure yourself against.
That's what makes it bad (imo). You're secretly competing with some hidden doomclock with a sign that says "you must be X strength by Y date" regardless of all other considerations, and you can't know what the required conditions are in advance.
I'm not opposed to some kind of external doom force mixing things up and stopping the game from stagnating, if it's done properly, but it feels like it's handled in pretty much the worst possible way here.
Post by: Descan on July 31, 2017, 02:09:50 pm
(They also said they made the AI more reactive to crises but I don't know how well that worked out. :P Paradox AI in general and Stellaris in particular is... lacking.
Post by: Zangi on July 31, 2017, 02:16:20 pm
Maybe if the balancing included some way to use the overall strength of the galaxy as a marker for crisis difficulty. Instead of it being either a non-threat or a curb-stomp-you affair.
Cause choosing crisis strength at game creation isn't really a solution.
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 31, 2017, 08:27:06 pm
Prethoryn Mongolia?
Post by: Persus13 on July 31, 2017, 09:02:55 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 31, 2017, 09:06:26 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 31, 2017, 09:12:12 pm
Right now they feel like nothing more than elaborate "if player.CombinedFleetStrength > x then win() else lose()" conditionals. You either stomp over the crisis or you lose. There's a small segment in between where you're able to successfully mobilize in time, but that's rare and still pretty close to the former "stomping over" outcome.
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 31, 2017, 11:35:13 pm
Post by: Descan on August 01, 2017, 12:22:04 am
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 01, 2017, 05:15:28 am
The Unbidden will have more factions spawn that are hostile to each other (and you, but eh). The Aberrant and Vehement even have a tendancy to fight each other, first.
Prethoryn Scourge has the Sentinel special empire that spawns when the Scourge is strong enough to help fight. Think that's 20% of the galaxy?
Post by: Draignean on August 01, 2017, 10:35:28 am
I mean... there kind of are already.
The Unbidden will have more factions spawn that are hostile to each other (and you, but eh). The Aberrant and Vehement even have a tendancy to fight each other, first.
Prethoryn Scourge has the Sentinel special empire that spawns when the Scourge is strong enough to help fight. Think that's 20% of the galaxy?
Sentinels are bloody worthless.
I have never beaten the Prethoryn. Even with phase-lance equipped dreads and legions of carriers with oceans of PD, the best I can manage is to hold the line.
Last time I went up against the Prethoryn, I held my sector while they gobbled up everyone else (who were all laughably underpowered compared to me), and the sentinels finally spawned. I threw every bit of money I could at the bastards.
They were wiped out nearly immediately.
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 01, 2017, 12:14:23 pm
Sentinels are bloody worthless.Just build a fast hyperlane or wormhole fleet, jump into their habitated worlds and bombard the shit out of them with apocalyptic or full bombardment. Once done, gtfo, rinse and repeat. Without planets the prethoryn swarm will be wiped down by attrition alone, as they can't terraform or colonize barren worlds
I have never beaten the Prethoryn. Even with phase-lance equipped dreads and legions of carriers with oceans of PD, the best I can manage is to hold the line.
Last time I went up against the Prethoryn, I held my sector while they gobbled up everyone else (who were all laughably underpowered compared to me), and the sentinels finally spawned. I threw every bit of money I could at the bastards.
They were wiped out nearly immediately.
This lets you effectively fight the swarm even if you lack the strength to exterminate its fleets. You need only be strong enough to wipe out its forts and fast enough to evade its omfgwtfbbqswarm fleets
Post by: QuakeIV on August 01, 2017, 12:46:33 pm
Also carriers aren't generally all that useful against the swarm in my experience. Additionally, the sentinels have pretty much never been of any value.
As a final note, what do you mean by oceans of PD?
Post by: Draignean on August 01, 2017, 01:30:48 pm
The prethoryn are quite beatable, but generally not if you use the ISB mod. ISB makes the prethoryn missiles stronger and impossible to intercept, so you just die, period.
Also carriers aren't generally all that useful against the swarm in my experience. Additionally, the sentinels have pretty much never been of any value.
As a final note, what do you mean by oceans of PD?
PD Fighters, typically really great at cutting down missiles and enemy fighters, in addition to peacemaker laser defense batteries on the backs of the dreads and on the defensive frigates.
ISB is the thing to blame I suppose.
Post by: Fewah on August 01, 2017, 04:59:24 pm
I always go Military or complete attacking type empires as I don't see sitting around in a federation very exciting.
But im open to try something different.
I always find I do nothing for a solid hour, feel like im missing out on some early game stuff.
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 01, 2017, 05:44:04 pm
PD Fighters, typically really great at cutting down missiles and enemy fighters, in addition to peacemaker laser defense batteries on the backs of the dreads and on the defensive frigates.Don't use PD fighters, they take up valuable battleship or cruiser space which would be much, much, much better spent on lances or kinetic artillery. A kinetic battery which destroys a swarm carrier also destroys that carrier's 8 swarm drones, a fighter hangar which destroys all 8 swarm drones hasn't dealt with the carrier. It's much much much better to instead of relying on PD fighters, rely on Flak Batteries.
ISB is the thing to blame I suppose.
Flak Batteries have much higher damage and higher tracking than fighters, meaning flak batteries take out enemy strike craft much quicker than any point defence module. They are also highly effective versus enemy corvette sized units for this reason too. They can be effectively spammed on picket destroyers or cruisers, or even just added one on every single ship so the prethoryn swarm effectively becomes declawed but for their acid spray.
If you must take strike craft (and they are really not worth it in most situations), take bombers instead. Kinetic artillery though > all strike craft modules. Also just saying, PD fighters can get shot down or end up clustered over the enemy when they should be protecting the fleet, flak artillery never stops guarding the ship
Post by: QuakeIV on August 01, 2017, 06:57:59 pm
ISB swarm arent beatable. Maybe at minimum difficulty, never tried that.
Post by: Teneb on August 03, 2017, 08:53:42 am
Dev Diary #80 - Machine Empires (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-80-machine-empires.1038072/).
Both transcribed below, expansion first.
Spoiler: Beep Boop (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Roblorg, reporting for friendship (click to show/hide)
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 03, 2017, 09:17:52 am
Post by: Ultimuh on August 03, 2017, 09:19:23 am
Post by: Cruxador on August 03, 2017, 11:21:29 am
Post by: scriver on August 03, 2017, 11:32:22 am
Servitors sound fucking dank, now I can make all my space habitat xeno preserves even more utopian
I was pondering the other day how fun it would be to have a sort of "evil Prime Directive" game where you'd absorb other species but try to keep them like they were at the point of meeting (for their own good, of course). I haven't yet played enough to know if that's just wild fantasy or at all viable, though. I'd think probably not.
Post by: Teneb on August 03, 2017, 11:35:28 am
With a Servitor civ, it seems a more benevolent version of what you described. Servitors are probably the best of the three. First variety is just fanatical purifier/devouring swarm but with more flexibility, the second is Borg, the third is what we are discussing.Servitors sound fucking dank, now I can make all my space habitat xeno preserves even more utopianI was pondering the other day how fun it would be to have a sort of "evil Prime Directive" game where you'd absorb other species but try to keep them like they were at the point of meeting (for their own good, of course). I haven't yet played enough to know if that's just wild fantasy or at all viable, though. I'd think probably not.
Post by: Zangi on August 03, 2017, 12:39:57 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 03, 2017, 01:06:57 pm
... I know that it was either in the base game or some random mod I picked up. But it allows you to set-up shielded sanctuary planets and put pops in them.... then change their technology level to pre-space.Definitely mod. I guess it should be possible to have an event which reduces a civ's tech level or keeps in constant, what with events that automatically put civs back to lower stages. For that matter, has anyone seen civs survive nuclear war in the most up to date version? In older ones I remembered seeing certain civs actually having survivors rebuild on their (now tomb world) with iron age tech, becoming spacefarers hundreds of years later. Haven't seen that happen at all now
Post by: Radsoc on August 03, 2017, 01:34:16 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on August 03, 2017, 02:08:39 pm
Sounds like a decent DLC. Wonder how they will price it, and when it's scheduled for.My guess is 20 Dollars or Euros or whatever equivalent of that.
As for when.. Well.. Since they released the trailer, my estimate would be soon. And as we know, in game developer terms, soon is relative.
Post by: Descan on August 03, 2017, 03:59:43 pm
Post by: StagnantSoul on August 03, 2017, 11:48:10 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 04, 2017, 04:04:45 am
Post by: StagnantSoul on August 04, 2017, 04:07:47 am
Post by: EuchreJack on August 04, 2017, 11:34:54 pm
Sounds like a decent DLC. Wonder how they will price it, and when it's scheduled for.My guess is 20 Dollars or Euros or whatever equivalent of that.
As for when.. Well.. Since they released the trailer, my estimate would be soon. And as we know, in game developer terms, soon is relative.
Since Utopia is $20, I see no reason that this DLC would be any other price.
Post by: StagnantSoul on August 04, 2017, 11:40:00 pm
Post by: Cruxador on August 05, 2017, 01:49:51 am
This is branded as a story pack, so it should be priced more like Leviathans.Sounds like a decent DLC. Wonder how they will price it, and when it's scheduled for.My guess is 20 Dollars or Euros or whatever equivalent of that.
As for when.. Well.. Since they released the trailer, my estimate would be soon. And as we know, in game developer terms, soon is relative.
Since Utopia is $20, I see no reason that this DLC would be any other price.
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 07, 2017, 01:58:39 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
1582 <tier2 robot pops, not counting the modded synthetics
*EDIT
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
ayy lmao already made a pact with the shroud too so it should get pretty spicy soon. Also edited the files so prethoryn and spooky space ghosts may also spawn, fingers crossed it'd be a 4 way crisis battle, but really I'll settle for 2
Post by: Karnewarrior on August 07, 2017, 02:46:58 pm
I have hypershields and Zero-point energy, and Gauss Cannons, and my battleships are still only 1.7k each. I just can't seem to get enough minerals... >_>
Post by: StagnantSoul on August 07, 2017, 03:44:58 pm
Apparently FE's have grown stronger since I last played. One just steamrolled me with a 90+k fleet.
I have hypershields and Zero-point energy, and Gauss Cannons, and my battleships are still only 1.7k each. I just can't seem to get enough minerals... >_>
Slay da dragon.
Make a ton of food buildings early and steal a ton of yearly minerals off your neighbour for yearly food for thirty years.
Slay da automated dreadnought and scrap it.
Make two dorks into a tributary.
Cry as you still don't have enough minerals.
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 07, 2017, 03:50:31 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
*EDIT
Spoiler: mfw looking at the machine fleet (click to show/hide)
Post by: lordcooper on August 11, 2017, 06:52:24 am
Spoiler: Not the most promising of starts. (click to show/hide)
Post by: StagnantSoul on August 11, 2017, 07:15:24 am
Post by: Teneb on August 11, 2017, 12:21:15 pm
Spoiler: Hey baby, wanna kill all humans? (click to show/hide)
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 11, 2017, 01:40:40 pm
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 11, 2017, 01:42:30 pm
Post by: Sirus on August 11, 2017, 03:07:21 pm
Huh. Guess humans in this galaxy are either heavily into genetic engineering, or have been utterly replaced by these things.Spoiler: Not the most promising of starts. (click to show/hide)
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 11, 2017, 03:13:09 pm
Post by: Persus13 on August 11, 2017, 04:39:47 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on August 11, 2017, 04:48:47 pm
Tens of thousands of years of evolution and genetic engineering. They probably never even noticed they were changing. :PHuh. Guess humans in this galaxy are either heavily into genetic engineering, or have been utterly replaced by these things.Spoiler: Not the most promising of starts. (click to show/hide)
I feel a little disappointed that you can't have a machine uprising with full citizenship status. That seems to assume that the machines are being reasonable. I'd rather that citizenship just made it so that some portion of your robots stay on your side.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on August 11, 2017, 04:50:05 pm
This game keeps putting out features that scream for a Mass Effect mod.Maybe they're courting one. The Game of Thrones mod was good for business after all.
Post by: Karnewarrior on August 11, 2017, 09:22:01 pm
Same, but I'd make sure it's "most". To such a degree that it would be a poor time for anyone else to attack you, but if outside forces don't intervene the robots aren't likely to win.Tens of thousands of years of evolution and genetic engineering. They probably never even noticed they were changing. :PHuh. Guess humans in this galaxy are either heavily into genetic engineering, or have been utterly replaced by these things.Spoiler: Not the most promising of starts. (click to show/hide)
I feel a little disappointed that you can't have a machine uprising with full citizenship status. That seems to assume that the machines are being reasonable. I'd rather that citizenship just made it so that some portion of your robots stay on your side.
Better than that though I'd like to be able to support inssurrections and otherwise do espionage in foreign empires. It'd be pretty neat to force your authoritarian neighbors to become GLORIOUS DEMOCRACIES like yourself.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 11, 2017, 11:53:21 pm
There are no moreHuh. Guess humans in this galaxy are either heavily into genetic engineering, or have been utterly replaced by these things.Spoiler: Not the most promising of starts. (click to show/hide)
Though I guess the unbidden aren't squids in this setting...
Post by: Descan on August 12, 2017, 01:34:22 pm
Post by: QuakeIV on August 13, 2017, 01:19:09 am
Post by: flabort on August 13, 2017, 01:28:12 am
I'm sure they could still form a faction and cause you troubles.
I feel a little disappointed that you can't have a machine uprising with full citizenship status. That seems to assume that the machines are being reasonable. I'd rather that citizenship just made it so that some portion of your robots stay on your side.
Also, it may be/become possible that the full-citizenship route leads to Rogue Servitors (The one robot civ type that can't come from uprisings).
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 15, 2017, 04:01:09 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
*EDIT
Figured out editing the ethics weight for the trait was pretty easy, so that species with locust pops became xenophobic and shut down migration or even became purgers. Then once the locusts are gone the weight disappears and they get drawn to xenophilia again, making the galaxy flow between waves of xenophobia and xenophilia as the locusts migrate. With an added opinion malus from leaders with locust trait, empires should now be more distrustful of signing migration treaties with locust pops, meaning they're more likely to accidentally cause locust migrations through conquest or expulsion. This satisfyingly creates genuine galactic migratory herds, shame you can't play as migratory pops and must play as an Empire. Still, they are a beautiful environmental force of destruction roaming through my galaxies. I think 99% of Stellaris's bland species problem is solved rather easily by just exaggerating the traits so galactic biodiversity actually means something
Post by: Mephansteras on August 15, 2017, 09:44:50 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 15, 2017, 02:16:11 pm
Huh. I'm impressed the game handles that so well!On review, I figured out there was one flaw in that by increasing the habitability adaptability of the locust trait, the AI tended to use them ~exclusively~ for colonization the moment one of their pops entered their Empire, and I don't see any justifiable reason why any Empire would want to do that. Testing it out I think it's cooler if the locust swarms are limited to certain climates and gaia planets, and the rare adaptable locust swarm earns its place as galactic superpest - so I'm gonna reduce their habitability instead, to really restrict their preferences to their immediate biome (and hilariously, the more advanced a space empire gets by unlocking habitability tech, the easier they make it for locust pops to appear).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
One really cool thing about the locust pops is that you get to see the real-time movement of pops across the galaxy. I modded FTL travel to take a year per system for the early tiers and a day per system for the highest tiers so that in the early game very few large territorial exchanges from colonization/conquest would occur. This meant that the galaxy developed into a beautiful patchwork of star empires instead of the usual blobs
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Puzzlemaker on August 15, 2017, 02:47:45 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 15, 2017, 03:17:40 pm
That's actually awesome, I do wish they would add in those sorts of interesting traits into the vanilla game. You should start an interesting traits modding project and host it somewhere.Hey thanks, I might consider that if I've got the time. For now it's just fun testing concepts and mechanics
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: umiman on August 15, 2017, 03:40:58 pm
Reading about your adventures with the locusts makes me think that Stellaris really doesn't do a good job about the whole "numbers and swarm" thing. There's no way to create a Skaven-like or Greenskin threat across the stars as even though your species can reproduce quickly... it doesn't really translate to anything does it?
I mean, sure, you get more people everywhere but once you hit the planet cap... that's basically it. And you don't really build more ships or anything. In essence, it just translates to "we reach the point of peak production faster than others" (though in your case, it's just "lol, we destroy your planets production temporarily"). But in reality, it should be "we must devour the universe because nothing can hold us".
I think this is one of the reasons warfare and diplomacy in general in this game is so underwhelming. Everything is more or less the same with one amusing quirk but still more or less the same. Unless it's expressly scripted like the end-game threats, everything ends up being more or less the same. More or less the same amount of ships. More or less the same amount of damage. More or less the same buildings. More or less the same combat styles.
Post by: Egan_BW on August 15, 2017, 04:11:21 pm
Post by: Descan on August 15, 2017, 05:20:09 pm
Post by: umiman on August 15, 2017, 06:25:28 pm
1. Introduce a mechanic that increases problems to you the higher your population (or overpopulation). Ideally you need to be motivated to keep expanding or fighting. More importantly, it needs to make the AI realize this too.
2. Introduce a mechanic that allows for higher populations per slot, to simulate the size of the species.
3. Introduce a mechanic to highlight how the species merely consumes and exploits before moving on. Probably stuff like buildings that aren't as good at consuming resources or something like that.
4. Amplify ship production and apply restrictions as necessary. For example, give them increased ship cap, ship production rate, but at the expensive of durability or power or what have you.
5. Amplify troop production and apply restrictions as well.
----
It's just annoying that the game itself doesn't take any steps to give the existing species more notable, distinctive traits. Honestly, most of the "unique" traits in Stellaris aren't born out of natural gameplay, but rather our own preconceived notions on what a species that looks like that should behave. That's true of almost anything we humans perceive, but at the very least they should try and introduce things to these tropes so they actually behave different from each other... rather than being more or less the same.
Honestly, the only difference in this game between a fanatic purifier and a fanatic pacifist in this game is a change in the probability of them declaring war on you. And their probability of drawing certain tech cards.
It's funny, in their effort to avoid making token races (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurDwarvesAreAllTheSame) in a token sci fi (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats) setting, Paradox instead made a game where everything is just basically clones of each other wearing different skins. And the only distinct races that anyone even remembers and talks about in this game are those scripted to be specifically one dimensional. ... .... ... ... *cough* (http://www.stellariswiki.com/Crisis#Extradimensional_Invaders)
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 15, 2017, 06:47:32 pm
maybe a full empire of "fast breeders" should have a war goal of "lebensraum" to make room for their young.That's not really any different from the hegemonic imperialists, hive minds or fanatical purifiers in fluff, and not different mechanically to anything else. Perhaps a war goal to force open borders & citizenship of your pops so the migratory-minded species can have more options to spread militarily than outright conquest. So in peace they can just migration treaty, in war they can do enforced migration treaties - with the consequence being defeated xenophobic Empires' xenophobic faction having to deal with the sudden forced political integration of numerous xeno citizens, each likely joining a xenophile or individualistic faction.
Loud Whispers:Yeah the fast breeding trait is pretty meaningless. There's no way to overpopulate your world and create hive cities of megadense urbanization, nor to create dense jungles of sentient plants or chittering seas of chitinous roachoid scientists. Which is a shame really, sorta throws you outta the immersion when arid deserts support the same population abstractions as lush gaia worlds, or when you have in-game fluff of precursor civilizations made up of scattered xenos that live and reproduce over thousands of years.
Reading about your adventures with the locusts makes me think that Stellaris really doesn't do a good job about the whole "numbers and swarm" thing. There's no way to create a Skaven-like or Greenskin threat across the stars as even though your species can reproduce quickly... it doesn't really translate to anything does it?
Hell, I would take numbered stats with icons over the planet tile per pop system. As an aside, when it comes to how buildings represent productivity, I found that modding the buildings to all add adjacency benefits greatly added to immersion and strategy. Early-tier buildings provide flat bonuses to tile production, but as the game progresses things like power plants provide +2 energy, +1 food, +1 minerals and so on to the tiles surrounding them, same for the mineral producing buildings. My reasoning was that this represented how the sum of a planet's parts were worth more than its whole, each tile of nations and cities did not exist as an independent unit sending its resources to a galactic HQ, they were interlinked with one another in chains of production, consumption and supply. Thus with adjacency bonuses, a large planet that is highly divided by hazardous terrain is not as productive as a small planet that is highly-connected, and a large planet that is fully populated and optimally linked provides the full strength of what such a large planet should provide. If hazardous terrain got reworked as a permanent feature and not just a momentary obstacle, this kinda system would even add diversity to every planet ~within~ a biome, before you start adding mechanics to differentiate an arctic glacier world to a deep ocean world.
I mean, sure, you get more people everywhere but once you hit the planet cap... that's basically it. And you don't really build more ships or anything. In essence, it just translates to "we reach the point of peak production faster than others" (though in your case, it's just "lol, we destroy your planets production temporarily"). But in reality, it should be "we must devour the universe because nothing can hold us".The vanilla game right now has three swarms:
1. Galactic nomad devourers, aka tyranid/zergbugs who intend to devour the galaxy and promptly leave for a new one.
2. Devouring swarms, which intend to eat the galaxy and establish itself as the top of the foodchain.
3. Other hive minds, which want to do what #2 are doing, only more carefully.
All three swarms are hive-minded with a single consciousness. There are no swarms of individuals in vanilla, nor are there swarms that peacefully migrate and takeover planets instead of the usual extermination and expansion campaigns the hive minds conduct. Closest we get to are the migratory flocks, issue being that the nomadic trait and fast breeder traits make migratory flocks marginally faster than other xenos at immigrating and growing within someone else's Empire, forming at best what it says on the tin - migratory flocks like a gaggle of geese, not an epic mass exodus like a plague of chittering (peaceful enough) spacebugs (I also think using the cat portrait would be appropriate, to portray the unstoppable onslaught of useless void felines adopting species as their new owners). Also I really liked the locust pops because they were a type of swarm that was different from the "we must eat the galaxy" swarm.
They make terrible conquerors, what with having no real industry (beyond what is needed to colonize) and no research to speak of. Yet they love making federation friends and making migration treaties, making them into a diplomatic swarm. The damage they cause to Empires is also a form of damage which is unlike any other; where right now your Empire can only be damaged externally by invaders and bombardment, or internally by rebels. The locusts are actually fairly law abiding citizens as long as they're happy, so if they have a planet to themselves and the Empire can afford the loss in minerals/unity/research then they are no issue (unless they spread). That they tank the happiness of other xenos pops makes it spicier, because it means that the Empire in question must contend with internal strife. The planets with locusts and xenos cohabiting form xenophobes, but only on that planet, which means either the rest kowtow to the xenophobes or risk the xenophobes launching a secessionist bid - ironically, with the civ's own species and not the locusts being what tears the space empire apart. Alternatively, the space empire just has its pops migrate off world to core worlds while the locusts take over all the newly emptified space, sucking up delicious materials :>
Basically if the vanilla 3 swarms are hordes of locusts devouring the world's biomass to feed their unstoppable march, the locust pops are by comparison a termite infestation that is eating at the woodwork but really means no harm to the giants is lives with. To that end I think population density and locust pops are diff issues, but by golly, Paradox shouldn't be afraid of fun mechanics ;D
I think this is one of the reasons warfare and diplomacy in general in this game is so underwhelming. Everything is more or less the same with one amusing quirk but still more or less the same. Unless it's expressly scripted like the end-game threats, everything ends up being more or less the same. More or less the same amount of ships. More or less the same amount of damage. More or less the same buildings. More or less the same combat styles.That and the vanilla game very linearly guides you down the path to exploration, colonization, federation and conquest. There is not even much if any variation in how you execute this linear path. PI taking out trading planets just to stop vanilla locust pop analogues strikes me as bizarre, when the game already runs frightfully close to a cycle of conquer, extinguish and grind, reducing number of fun alternative options to defeat rivals makes no sense. Same goes with having starvation not starve anyone! Madness I say. It's even worse that the trait differences are so small that on the higher difficulties, the weaknesses and strengths of the AI species do not matter at all. Even on the lower difficulties it's hard to see the variance play out in different ways, once you see one federating species you've seen all of them
Hmm. Maybe fast breeding should make more leader characters spawn. That together with admiral characters who are required to form a fleet, you get a somewhat reasonable military advantage.(http://i.imgur.com/XAys5xu.png)
Proposal: More pops per tile than 1? Would also allow for xeno minorities, overpopulation and increased growth being actually useful.
Frankly what the game needs is more options than just sending your corvettes to go blow up their corvettes. Synth Empires don't get to infiltrate enemy Empires. Psionics can't literally engage in mind warfare. Gene modding is pretty dank, but the attributes are just too meaningless to alter how a species behaves. Immigration is a means to 10 pop, and never a means to peaceful propagation. You'd think Empires with access to FTL weapons would think of less destructive ways to complete their objectives. The lack of trade sucks. Planetary warfare might as well not exist. Starvation and orbital bombardment doing nothing whilst a measly hydrogen bomb annihilates the planet shows the developers aren't stupid, they just don't want anyone having unauthorised fun xD
/rant aside, a lot of this is rectifiable with modding and Paradox's business model means they'll keep adding features as time goes on. Basically the game'll be good after the first 15 dlc and some nice mods
Paradox instead made a game where everything is just basically clones of each other wearing different skins.It's a petty complaint I have, but it irks me greatly that hospitals provide bonus pop growth but cloning vats do not. Thus I always mod them to be a rarer tech that provides a very juicy pop growth
Post by: Karnewarrior on August 15, 2017, 11:22:44 pm
I've actually been thinking about starting to mod Stellaris. I've always had my autism triggered by not only the odd names for techs (2200 and the UN hasn't figured out theoretical quantum mechanics? Did we regress or something, because we're, today, at actual practical quantum mechanics being used in computing) but the lack of indepth fluff in the tooltip - and Stellaris of course doesn't exactly have a civilopedia to put the big fluff so there's no way to do worldbuilding like SMAC. Not to mention the lack of any direction in tech whatsoever and the overall thinness of the tech tree means it never really feels like your empire is more advanced than that primitive that just popped next door. Mechanically, yes, your ships are faster and fly farther and shoot different colored lasers that do way more damage, but there's not really any sort of visceral feeling of sliding from hard sci-fi "Iridium plating" to "It made the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs!" tier fuck-the-rules-I-have-SCIENCE! sci-fi opera.
So I've been thinking about doing a overhaul of the tech tree. Fluff is no problem - I can write fluff for fucking days - but it does seem like it'd be a bigass project. Still want to give it a try though.
And jeeze it's only a little bit of the polish the game needs to par classics like GalCiv and SMAC. I'm definitely remembering some of the stuff discussed in this thread just now. There's good ideas in you lot.
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 16, 2017, 06:37:55 am
I think cloning vats represent things closer to Halo's Flash Cloning rather than proper clones. After a few years in the corps, they just get cancer and die. Which the game represents as them not being proper pops (though it should represent them as Pops with an upkeep, as a sort of organic alternative to robots and droids, or even synths.)Alternatively, mass produced pops from your species but with an added fleeting/super fleeting trait - being able to produce the pops from the same pop production screen as robits. If the clones are infertile then I like the idea that you're manually replacing them from your cloning vats, brave new world style
I've actually been thinking about starting to mod Stellaris. I've always had my autism triggered by not only the odd names for techs (2200 and the UN hasn't figured out theoretical quantum mechanics? Did we regress or something, because we're, today, at actual practical quantum mechanics being used in computing) but the lack of indepth fluff in the tooltip - and Stellaris of course doesn't exactly have a civilopedia to put the big fluff so there's no way to do worldbuilding like SMAC. Not to mention the lack of any direction in tech whatsoever and the overall thinness of the tech tree means it never really feels like your empire is more advanced than that primitive that just popped next door. Mechanically, yes, your ships are faster and fly farther and shoot different colored lasers that do way more damage, but there's not really any sort of visceral feeling of sliding from hard sci-fi "Iridium plating" to "It made the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs!" tier fuck-the-rules-I-have-SCIENCE! sci-fi opera.God speed
So I've been thinking about doing a overhaul of the tech tree. Fluff is no problem - I can write fluff for fucking days - but it does seem like it'd be a bigass project. Still want to give it a try though.
And jeeze it's only a little bit of the polish the game needs to par classics like GalCiv and SMAC. I'm definitely remembering some of the stuff discussed in this thread just now. There's good ideas in you lot.
A little fluff goes a hell of a long way. Even superficial changes can make for a considerably more enjoyable time (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=697938908)
Post by: Puzzlemaker on August 16, 2017, 09:33:53 am
Post by: Astral on August 16, 2017, 10:25:36 am
The core mods I use are:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Hanzoku on August 16, 2017, 11:54:58 am
Post by: Karnewarrior on August 16, 2017, 12:40:20 pm
Yeah, in stellaris the lack of cool sci-fi stuff kind of annoys me. I mean, they have some of it, but they lack.. something.Story.
No, I'm serious. Even games like Civ have a story: Tribe rises from being stone-age grouping of people to a intercontinental war-machine/culture/diplomatic powerhouse/scientist haven. Stellaris is just a tad too open-ended and fluff light to have any kind of story to it - Events could have been used to fill the void but really the only ones I know of that are triggered by time or you doing something you have to do are the crises, which are responded to by basically everyone exactly the same way, because even pacifists figure out pretty quickly that the Unbidden make poor friends.
Having a deeper, less wide tech tree won't fix that but it's a step forward.
Ship Power Stations: Compatible with NSC, gives dedicated reactor slots so you don't have to fill half a ship with reactors.I've always felt there should be more tiers of reactors and they should be rarer techs (also they should start at fusion, fluffwise, and take a bit longer to get to ZP and beyond. It's irritating how little each ZP reactor seems to power on its own - I mean, they're literally drawing power from nothing at all at rates several times faster than even the energy gained from having a shipboard star, they really ought to be able to power more than just a few railguns.
[/spoiler]
Post by: Zangi on August 16, 2017, 01:48:31 pm
Not a lot of room for atypical stuff when you also have a competitive(?) multiplayer portion to worry about.
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 16, 2017, 01:51:03 pm
I think its cause Stellaris has gone into the deep end of multiplayer 'balance', rather then substance that would normally be put into a singleplayer game.vomit.png
Not a lot of room for atypical stuff when you also have a competitive(?) multiplayer portion to worry about.
Post by: Karnewarrior on August 16, 2017, 05:46:46 pm
I think its cause Stellaris has gone into the deep end of multiplayer 'balance', rather then substance that would normally be put into a singleplayer game.Well, I guess that's where mods come in.
Not a lot of room for atypical stuff when you also have a competitive(?) multiplayer portion to worry about.
The Singleplayer at least desperately needs some debalancing.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on August 16, 2017, 07:48:00 pm
I think its cause Stellaris has gone into the deep end of multiplayer 'balance', rather then substance that would normally be put into a singleplayer game.Well, I guess that's where mods come in.
Not a lot of room for atypical stuff when you also have a competitive(?) multiplayer portion to worry about.
The Singleplayer at least desperately needs some debalancing.
That is a fantastic quote.
Post by: Teneb on August 16, 2017, 10:07:22 pm
What was shall be.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on August 17, 2017, 01:28:48 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: umiman on August 17, 2017, 03:01:00 am
Just looked up that event chain.Um, the entire premise of the event is about an infinite recursive amount of harems for the one big dude.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Majestic7 on August 17, 2017, 12:17:48 pm
Post by: Teneb on August 19, 2017, 10:02:53 am
I'm mostly reposting this one because of what they're saying the next one is about.
Spoiler: MACHINA VULT (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sirus on August 19, 2017, 10:11:48 am
Synthetic God (https://youtu.be/7YGXDYWCyoY)Why do I like this so much?
Post by: Teneb on August 19, 2017, 10:13:28 am
It is a very nice synthwave piece. Very 80s, very blade runner.Synthetic God (https://youtu.be/7YGXDYWCyoY)Why do I like this so much?
Post by: Radsoc on August 19, 2017, 10:45:21 am
Post by: Cruxador on August 19, 2017, 11:14:50 am
As for the note at the bottom, it's nice to hear that governors are getting looked at. If they're doing things the way I hope, this will include revolts a bit like the already-mentioned machine revolts, but lead by sector governors. But what I suspect is that it'll be relatively minor changes.
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 19, 2017, 03:36:09 pm
Post by: Sirus on August 19, 2017, 04:36:03 pm
Post by: Hanzoku on August 20, 2017, 07:44:25 am
THANK GOD
Post by: ZeroGravitas on August 20, 2017, 08:20:14 am
Ded Diary 82 (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-82-synthetic-dawn-music.1039976/)
I'm mostly reposting this one because of what they're saying the next one is about.Spoiler: MACHINA VULT (click to show/hide)
wouldn't it be "machinae vult" tho 8)
Post by: scriver on August 20, 2017, 10:21:57 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 20, 2017, 11:55:58 am
In the next update you'll be able to release species in your empire as a vassel. Makes it easier to become some kind of space HRE
Post by: Cruxador on August 20, 2017, 12:05:12 pm
https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/898106326290759680Still a pointless thing to do, though.
In the next update you'll be able to release species in your empire as a vassel. Makes it easier to become some kind of space HRE
Post by: Mephansteras on August 20, 2017, 12:21:14 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 20, 2017, 01:46:17 pm
Not entirely. Some of the traditions give you big boosts for having vassals.https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/898106326290759680Still a pointless thing to do, though.
In the next update you'll be able to release species in your empire as a vassel. Makes it easier to become some kind of space HRE
Post by: Descan on August 20, 2017, 01:53:18 pm
THANK GODAnd you'll apparently be able to directly build on sector worlds.
Post by: Teneb on August 20, 2017, 01:59:53 pm
Aside from the afore-mentioned traditions, it is also great for hive minds (and robots with the dlc) since otherwise those species would be purged.https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/898106326290759680Still a pointless thing to do, though.
In the next update you'll be able to release species in your empire as a vassel. Makes it easier to become some kind of space HRE
Post by: Karnewarrior on August 21, 2017, 09:09:02 am
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 21, 2017, 11:17:03 am
Your vassals can provide you with fleets you dont have to pay for maintainance for, and their territory counts towards victory conditions with the penalties to unity and research or filling up sectors.https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/898106326290759680Still a pointless thing to do, though.
In the next update you'll be able to release species in your empire as a vassel. Makes it easier to become some kind of space HRE
So it's not necessarily pointless.
Post by: StagnantSoul on August 21, 2017, 01:05:39 pm
Post by: Teneb on August 23, 2017, 05:02:01 pm
Spoiler: Image, big (click to show/hide)
I'm at the northwest corner. The empires with sensor bubbles around them are my vassals. You can probably spot the four fallen empires. With the exception of the small empire with a triangle for its symbol at the very south of the galaxy, everyone is either in the same federation, or vassal of one of the members.
My fleet power has grown since them, at 64k, but the game considers the two big empires to be a match for me.
Current hope is to awaken the fallen empires or get a crisis so the federation is weakened and my devouring swarm can take them apart.
Still, tough.
EDIT: Well, they declared war on me. And I wiped a 30k fleet without losing a single k of fleet power. So that bodes well.
EDIT 2: I hate fighting wormhole empires. It's next to impossible to pin down their fleets.
EDIT 3: Scratch that. The fuckers have jump drives and can just evade me forever because I'm using warp and have two months of wind-down on my main fleet.
Post by: EuchreJack on August 28, 2017, 09:42:54 pm
Sounds a lot like all the other Stellaris music to my ear... Maybe I'm spoiled by what Civ did with music this last time.
As for the note at the bottom, it's nice to hear that governors are getting looked at. If they're doing things the way I hope, this will include revolts a bit like the already-mentioned machine revolts, but lead by sector governors. But what I suspect is that it'll be relatively minor changes.
Sectors used to be able to revolt, but I don't think that is in anymore, as it related to population tracking that was removed with the Faction system. It would be nice to see sectors have more "personality".
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 29, 2017, 03:34:55 am
Post by: Teneb on August 31, 2017, 11:51:38 am
Spoiler: To purge or not to purge? (click to show/hide)
I really like the first one since I've seen refugees a grand total of no times.
Post by: Mephansteras on August 31, 2017, 12:04:27 pm
Post by: Sirus on August 31, 2017, 12:09:20 pm
Post by: Toady One on September 02, 2017, 03:49:41 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 02, 2017, 03:57:38 am
Post by: umiman on September 02, 2017, 04:04:11 am
My fellow Bay 12ers! I bring grave tidings from the distant future! At this time today tomorrow, nothing of particular concern happens.
That is all.
Post by: Hanzoku on September 02, 2017, 05:01:22 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 02, 2017, 08:52:15 pm
So how do you guys feel about frozen planet classes being the only ones with high weights for minerals and engineering research? It seems like picking anything other than snow species is gonna suck
nah, it just means that non-snow species will have to either get lucky, or prioritize some way of getting on to snow planets (like robots, gene editing, or incorporation snow species into empire).
starting snow planets aren't likely to be much more mineral rich than non-snow starting planets.
Post by: Descan on September 03, 2017, 12:33:51 pm
Post by: Culise on September 03, 2017, 12:48:01 pm
Post by: Teneb on September 07, 2017, 06:24:29 pm
Spoiler: Praise the Omnissiah (click to show/hide)
Post by: Cruxador on September 07, 2017, 07:36:26 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 07, 2017, 08:35:44 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on September 07, 2017, 09:18:39 pm
Fucking with a stage 2 empire as a stage 1 should be utterly retarded, but a pair of stage 2's may fight equally enough that a stage 1 can play kingmaker. FE's would obviously begin the game at stage 2. I'd figure stage 1 empires would be run off hard sci-fi type techs like Antimatter reactors and Sapient AI, and stage 2 empires would start getting into the space-opera / soft Sci-fi tech like hard-light shielding and psionics. Maybe end-game ascension perks would be restricted to stage 2.
This would, I hope, cause some nice, purposeful imbalance and make the game feel like it progresses more. The only caveat would be that you'd need some way of keeping the first empire to enter stage 2 from steamrolling everyone else - this could probably be done by making the gap tangible but not unbreachably huge between late stage 1 fleets and early stage 2 fleets, as well as probably some modifications to the AI to make them both not go on conquering sprees quite as easily if there's only so many stage 2 civs out there, and to make them lump together more and more if the player tries to do so.
I just really like seeing blobs rise and fall. It's what I like about paradox over Civ.
Post by: Radsoc on September 08, 2017, 01:01:09 am
Post by: Reverie on September 14, 2017, 04:59:14 am
EDIT 3: Scratch that. The fuckers have jump drives and can just evade me forever because I'm using warp and have two months of wind-down on my main fleet.
You know, while warp absolutely sucks and I agree with you, the smart thing to do would be to split your fleet into smaller ones to warp and rendezvous at the other side, so long as you're just travelling between systems. The cooldowns are manageable then. Maybe also consider using bait tactics before engagements to draw the enemy fleet into the system and toward the star before sending in the fleet proper, so you'd have some chance to engage in your favour.
Post by: Teneb on September 14, 2017, 09:17:28 am
EDIT 3: Scratch that. The fuckers have jump drives and can just evade me forever because I'm using warp and have two months of wind-down on my main fleet.
You know, while warp absolutely sucks and I agree with you, the smart thing to do would be to split your fleet into smaller ones to warp and rendezvous at the other side, so long as you're just travelling between systems. The cooldowns are manageable then. Maybe also consider using bait tactics before engagements to draw the enemy fleet into the system and toward the star before sending in the fleet proper, so you'd have some chance to engage in your favour.
I tried doing that. They used their OP drives to snipe each fleet before I could respond. I eventually managed to reverse-engineer the drives, so it's all good.EDIT 3: Scratch that. The fuckers have jump drives and can just evade me forever because I'm using warp and have two months of wind-down on my main fleet.
You know, while warp absolutely sucks and I agree with you, the smart thing to do would be to split your fleet into smaller ones to warp and rendezvous at the other side, so long as you're just travelling between systems. The cooldowns are manageable then. Maybe also consider using bait tactics before engagements to draw the enemy fleet into the system and toward the star before sending in the fleet proper, so you'd have some chance to engage in your favour.
Post by: BurnedToast on September 14, 2017, 10:11:42 pm
You know, while warp absolutely sucks and I agree with you,
Compared to what? I don't understand all the hate warp gets.
Hyperdrive is faster, but must follow lanes. I'd consider that more or less equal to warp, depending on the galaxy shape and size.
Everyone seems to love wormholes but I found them to be a massive micromanagement PITA. Early game it limits your exploration and potentially expansion (those station aren't cheap at the start), and lategame they are incredibly slow. They only seem really good for a brief midgame sweet spot where you can easily afford the stations, fleet sizes are small enough that the windup is not unreasonably long, and empires are small enough that you can jump anywhere in the enemy's territory in a single jump.
Jumpdrive is amazing but of course it's a lategame special research thing so it's not fair to compare it.
Post by: Rolan7 on September 14, 2017, 10:21:01 pm
My experience is limited to two runs, both with warp, but it seemed fine. The wormhole-empires got shafted in both runs. Hyperdrive enemies were... problematic, but eventually predictable since there's that "see the lanes" research. I couldn't say which is better, but (at least in the early-mid game, which is as far as I got) warp seemed okay.
Post by: Egan_BW on September 14, 2017, 11:02:38 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on September 14, 2017, 11:14:31 pm
Post by: Culise on September 15, 2017, 12:19:08 am
Post by: Karnewarrior on September 15, 2017, 10:29:07 am
So rather like roads in Civ, you can send your fleets away from home but it's slow going, and the closer you get to an empires core systems the faster travel is because there's a denser network of wormhole-lines. But the stations would be relatively expensive, so there'd be an extra layer of strategic management in what the layout of your wormhole "roads" would be.
Hyperdrive does part of it but with the "roads" prebuilt, which basically moves the strategic design aspect into a strategic movement problem.
Post by: Teneb on September 15, 2017, 12:07:39 pm
Spoiler: No witty title this time (click to show/hide)
Post by: Cruxador on September 15, 2017, 12:46:38 pm
And did they mention the machine worlds ascension perk before this? Regardless of whether it's actually good, that sounds like an amazingly fun thing to use in practice.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on September 15, 2017, 04:05:45 pm
When this drops, I'm obviously going to play a synthetic empire.
Just gotta work out which portrait. I like the 5th one.
Also, the third one is very obviously inspired by a certain crisis.
I bet if you whack it with a stick it'll tell you the time.
(http://i1.wp.com/nintendo-papercraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/Gossipstone.jpg?resize=600%2C625)(https://s26.postimg.org/pcjqvweeh/roboteye.png)
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on September 15, 2017, 04:10:55 pm
Spoiler: You're missing their obvious inspiration. (click to show/hide)
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 15, 2017, 04:12:42 pm
When this drops, I'm obviously going to play a synthetic empire.
Just gotta work out which portrait. I like the 5th one.
Also, the third one is very obviously inspired by a certain crisis.
they're all pretty obvious inspirations although rogue servitors may be somewhat less known...
Post by: Cruxador on September 15, 2017, 05:53:23 pm
Pretty sure that's not who invented eyes.Spoiler: You're missing their obvious inspiration. (click to show/hide)
Post by: Karnewarrior on September 15, 2017, 10:53:28 pm
(https://goo.gl/images/kphX8d)Pretty sure that's not who invented eyes.Spoiler: You're missing their obvious inspiration. (click to show/hide)
Post by: scriver on September 16, 2017, 10:47:58 am
Post by: StagnantSoul on September 16, 2017, 11:23:02 am
Post by: Dunamisdeos on September 16, 2017, 12:26:12 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 20, 2017, 07:57:57 pm
Post by: Teneb on September 23, 2017, 08:36:54 pm
Spoiler: I'm liking this expansion so much (click to show/hide)
I'm playing as Servitors. I met a Slaver civ. Friendship ensued.
I also met the new Fallen Empire pretty early. And they love me. Probably.
Post by: Radsoc on September 25, 2017, 07:12:57 am
It's a game where you can lose too, much like the games of old, not like e.g. Civ 5 where I played twice without losing any units at all. Now, I just finished a 40h game post-Synthetic Dawn, and lost. :P But it was kind of too much at the same time, war with an awakened empire and simultaneous end-game events.
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 25, 2017, 07:24:59 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 25, 2017, 07:28:11 pm
Post by: umiman on September 25, 2017, 09:41:37 pm
They're not necessary right now cos the game's not finishedSavage.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 26, 2017, 08:41:55 am
The dlc so far are just story packs which add a few flavor options, they aren't necessary by any means
Utopia is relatively important because it adds most of the higher-level development to the game: ascension perks (traditions are free, ascensions are not), civics that do something beyond +x% to widgets (syncretic evolution, fanatic purifier, etc), habitats and megastructures, hive minds, etc.
Basically if you are playing without Utopia (and probably without SD as well) you are in a very bland universe where everyone pretty much does the same thing. Basically proof that Stellaris is a functioning game, but not really anything interesting.
Of course, it's not as bad as CK2 and EU4 where they've started locking UI improvements behind paywalls (army builders and prisoner management come to mind). But Paradox also does a great job of hiding exactly which features are DLC and which are "free."
Post by: Wiles on September 26, 2017, 10:25:56 am
Post by: Ultimuh on November 02, 2017, 10:59:53 am
Some seem to disagree with this direction. I personally however, think it will be interesting to see the changes in-game.
Post by: StagnantSoul on November 02, 2017, 11:05:15 am
Post by: Draignean on November 02, 2017, 11:55:30 am
Quote
FTL: What works in a game such as Sword of the Stars, with its turn-based gameplay, small maps of usually no more than 3-6 empires, and 1-on-1 wars breaks down completely in a Stellaris game
Scrub, that is in no way why it works in SOTS. SOTS usually bumps around 6 to 8 factions, and you're either damn lucky or playing a clusters map if you're involved only in 1-on-1 wars. SOTS works because it's turn based, yes, but that's the only thing you got right. It's also got interception mechanics, meaningful sensor ranges, and space stations that aren't shite. You don't get to talk down to SOTS' combat system, not for a long time yet.
Post by: Sindain on November 02, 2017, 12:06:42 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on November 02, 2017, 12:17:50 pm
I'm very happy to see these changes. I've already been playing on hyperlanes only for quite some time, for pretty much all the reasons they listed.
Same here.
Post by: Cruxador on November 02, 2017, 12:30:12 pm
The FTL stuff all seems fine to me, although the use of jump drives seems tedious and generally pointless.
Post by: umiman on November 02, 2017, 01:29:12 pm
Post by: Culise on November 02, 2017, 01:40:49 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 02, 2017, 01:45:13 pm
As I read I'm nodding up and down smiling, up until...Literally nothing was mentioned about the SOTS combat system... they said what worked well in SOTS does not work in Stellaris and they mentioned it falls apart in Stellaris' combat systemQuoteFTL: What works in a game such as Sword of the Stars, with its turn-based gameplay, small maps of usually no more than 3-6 empires, and 1-on-1 wars breaks down completely in a Stellaris game
Scrub, that is in no way why it works in SOTS. SOTS usually bumps around 6 to 8 factions, and you're either damn lucky or playing a clusters map if you're involved only in 1-on-1 wars. SOTS works because it's turn based, yes, but that's the only thing you got right. It's also got interception mechanics, meaningful sensor ranges, and space stations that aren't shite. You don't get to talk down to SOTS' combat system, not for a long time yet.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 02, 2017, 02:07:07 pm
Edit: While I'm posting here: is it worth coming back to this game yet? And which DLC is considered "essential"?
Post by: Teneb on November 02, 2017, 02:12:48 pm
At any rate, I'm really liking where the game is going.
Post by: Ultimuh on November 02, 2017, 02:25:10 pm
Edit: While I'm posting here: is it worth coming back to this game yet? And which DLC is considered "essential"?I would say so, but if you are unsure then wait for the next sale.
As for DLCs.. I would say Utopia and Synthetic Dawn are probably the most essential ones.
The Plantoids pack adds a new phenotype (a new portrait/city set/spaceships class or whatever you may call it).
So if you enjoy variety, then get it, if you want. But it doesn't add any gameplay mechanics.
Post by: Draignean on November 02, 2017, 02:31:04 pm
As I read I'm nodding up and down smiling, up until...Literally nothing was mentioned about the SOTS combat system... they said what worked well in SOTS does not work in Stellaris and they mentioned it falls apart in Stellaris' combat systemQuoteFTL: What works in a game such as Sword of the Stars, with its turn-based gameplay, small maps of usually no more than 3-6 empires, and 1-on-1 wars breaks down completely in a Stellaris game
Scrub, that is in no way why it works in SOTS. SOTS usually bumps around 6 to 8 factions, and you're either damn lucky or playing a clusters map if you're involved only in 1-on-1 wars. SOTS works because it's turn based, yes, but that's the only thing you got right. It's also got interception mechanics, meaningful sensor ranges, and space stations that aren't shite. You don't get to talk down to SOTS' combat system, not for a long time yet.
Strategic combat, not the tactical side. I'm a bit defensive of SOTS, but the way they wrote it makes it sound like SOTS strategic combat takes place on an intrinsically smaller scale and less involved scale than Stellaris. Which really isn't true.
The core point, that real time SOTS would be a fucking nightmare, is absolutely true. I just don't agree with the critique that 'small maps' and limited numbers of enemy empires is a valid reason, and it sounds like they're sort of making a back-pedal defense of 'well, this system doesn't work- but the reason it doesn't work is that we're too AWESOME!'
Post by: umiman on November 02, 2017, 03:26:44 pm
The game and most DLC is on sale at Humble right now.Edit: While I'm posting here: is it worth coming back to this game yet? And which DLC is considered "essential"?I would say so, but if you are unsure then wait for the next sale.
As for DLCs.. I would say Utopia and Synthetic Dawn are probably the most essential ones.
The Plantoids pack adds a new phenotype (a new portrait/city set/spaceships class or whatever you may call it).
So if you enjoy variety, then get it, if you want. But it doesn't add any gameplay mechanics.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 02, 2017, 03:32:33 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 02, 2017, 05:50:07 pm
I mean their comparison still pretty much works... Stellaris can have 30 factions in the same game. If two factions each with subjects and allies go to war, it would be pretty plausible to have an 8 faction war with each faction having between it all 3 starter types.
Edit: While I'm posting here: is it worth coming back to this game yet? And which DLC is considered "essential"?
Not worth coming back to yet. Maybe after the next patch that overhauls borders and FTL and apparently war and maybe some other stuff.
In the current version the gameplay is just way too thin and insanely repetitive.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 02, 2017, 06:01:01 pm
Edit: While I'm posting here: is it worth coming back to this game yet? And which DLC is considered "essential"?I would say so, but if you are unsure then wait for the next sale.
As for DLCs.. I would say Utopia and Synthetic Dawn are probably the most essential ones.
The Plantoids pack adds a new phenotype (a new portrait/city set/spaceships class or whatever you may call it).
So if you enjoy variety, then get it, if you want. But it doesn't add any gameplay mechanics.
Synthetic Dawn, absolutely.
Utopia, probably not. It's twice as expensive as Synthetic Dawn and adds a few "win more" mechanics like Dyson Spheres and Ascension Perks. It does add some unique civics like Mechanists, Hive Minds, and Fanatic Purifiers. But Synthetic Dawn already adds lots of unique civics as well as machine empires, many of which are basically the same thing as those in Utopia (Fanatic Purifier and Determined Exterminators, for example).
Post by: Karnewarrior on November 02, 2017, 06:44:36 pm
Still, starports will be nice and Hyperdrive isn't a gamekiller for me. I think I'll overall like this update.
Post by: Aklyon on November 02, 2017, 07:16:01 pm
Finally. It's so annoying trying to mod out all the FTL options and all the late game ones too.You know there was literally an ingame option to set restricto-lanes ftl only, right?
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 02, 2017, 07:18:45 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 02, 2017, 07:19:12 pm
That only works for empires. Crisis fleets and wandering enemies still use warp unless they're modded not to.Finally. It's so annoying trying to mod out all the FTL options and all the late game ones too.You know there was literally an ingame option to set restricto-lanes ftl only, right?
Post by: Aklyon on November 02, 2017, 07:19:48 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 02, 2017, 07:25:53 pm
Post by: Aklyon on November 02, 2017, 07:28:37 pm
I take it you're not excited about the latest announcements, then? :PI'm excited about the eventual modded gateways, and them actually improving stuff. But if I wanted to play as the SotS Terrans I would play as the SotS terrans.
Or maybe the Zuul.
Post by: Cruxador on November 02, 2017, 08:15:42 pm
I already own Stellaris, I just stopped playing shortly after release and I'm wondering if this is a good time to check it out again. My original playthrough was a very individualist democracy which was kind of ruined by the fact that ethics drift was glitched to cause pops to be homogeneous (undoing any weakness that playstyle would have had). Then it crashed infinitely with no solution.I'd say if you've waited this long, might as well wait longer. This update should be pretty comprehensive and overhaul the game to be a lot better.
So wait for this one, and then the inevitable balance/bugfix patch soon after.
Post by: Ultimuh on November 02, 2017, 08:29:27 pm
The FTL changes will be free though.I already own Stellaris, I just stopped playing shortly after release and I'm wondering if this is a good time to check it out again. My original playthrough was a very individualist democracy which was kind of ruined by the fact that ethics drift was glitched to cause pops to be homogeneous (undoing any weakness that playstyle would have had). Then it crashed infinitely with no solution.I'd say if you've waited this long, might as well wait longer. This update should be pretty comprehensive and overhaul the game to be a lot better.
So wait for this one, and then the inevitable balance/bugfix patch soon after.
Quote
Are all new forms of FTL free patch content?
Yes. Naturally we're not going to charge for any form of content meant to replace the loss of old FTL types.
Post by: Cruxador on November 02, 2017, 09:41:08 pm
"Will be" is key there. They're not anything yet. They'll launch alongside whatever the next DLC is that we know nothing about yet.The FTL changes will be free though.I already own Stellaris, I just stopped playing shortly after release and I'm wondering if this is a good time to check it out again. My original playthrough was a very individualist democracy which was kind of ruined by the fact that ethics drift was glitched to cause pops to be homogeneous (undoing any weakness that playstyle would have had). Then it crashed infinitely with no solution.I'd say if you've waited this long, might as well wait longer. This update should be pretty comprehensive and overhaul the game to be a lot better.
So wait for this one, and then the inevitable balance/bugfix patch soon after.QuoteAre all new forms of FTL free patch content?
Yes. Naturally we're not going to charge for any form of content meant to replace the loss of old FTL types.
Post by: Culise on November 02, 2017, 09:51:19 pm
There are no wormholes. There is only Zuul.I take it you're not excited about the latest announcements, then? :PI'm excited about the eventual modded gateways, and them actually improving stuff. But if I wanted to play as the SotS Terrans I would play as the SotS terrans.
Or maybe the Zuul.
Post by: E. Albright on November 02, 2017, 10:03:18 pm
The border and starbase changes are very weird, gamey, and specific. They feel off, just like e.g. a Devouring Swarm who can't use diplomacy operating according to the same formal War Demands structure everyone else does, or ground warfare necessarily consisting of a long siege followed by a brief and mostly-one-sided invasion. So much of the strength of their design is the diverse space of ideas it explores without committing itself to extremely specific interpretations. These changes are extremely specific interpretations. Yes, in principle this better allows for more depth within the narrowed design space, but like the War Demands system or invasions, the specifics they're settling on seem to be very narrow and extremely rigid ones.
Post by: Descan on November 03, 2017, 04:47:13 am
And it makes more sense to me that you can only claim a star system if you have an actual presense in it; Especially with only hyperlanes, what sense is there that an empire can control a star it can't even get to, and get all the resources in it, just because it has a frontier outpost or colony in the right spot?
Post by: E. Albright on November 03, 2017, 05:52:14 am
You'll still be able to collect isolated resources if you drop an outpost first, so they're doing nothing about the fundamental oddities of instantaneous, uninterruptible, and suspiciously non-Euclidean logistics.
I do hope they change the Enigmatic Fortress into a Starbase, though.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 03, 2017, 07:57:22 am
Starbase cap is extremely dumb and there are many other ways they could have limited starbases instead of just creating a new 'starbase cap' mechanic.
Post by: umiman on November 03, 2017, 01:57:51 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 03, 2017, 02:04:32 pm
It's because they balance for multiplayer first and putting hard caps on everything makes it easier to control for multiplayer cheese.
i'm not sure your explanation really makes sense. in both MP and "competitive SP" (or whatever you want to call it) you go to war with the army you can afford. this routinely means going over FL and taking loans. if there was no FL but the maintenance cost was the same regardless* then you'd still see exactly the same behavior.
*i mean, X.0 regiments cost Y.0 ducats. that could be because the first X.1 regiments cost Y.1 ducats on your way up to FL, and then remainder cost Y.2, or it could be because the cost of each regiment was higher, or because each incremental regiment was more expensive without having the FL breakpoint, or whatever.
I think they implement something like Starbase Limits because fundamentally they don't think any deeper than "If we make this thing why won't someone just build them everywhere" and they say "ok just give it a soft cap that's unusable much past that."
Post by: umiman on November 03, 2017, 02:25:05 pm
That's literally what cheese means. You just said you think I'm wrong then wrote the exact same explanation.It's because they balance for multiplayer first and putting hard caps on everything makes it easier to control for multiplayer cheese.
i'm not sure your explanation really makes sense. in both MP and "competitive SP" (or whatever you want to call it) you go to war with the army you can afford. this routinely means going over FL and taking loans. if there was no FL but the maintenance cost was the same regardless* then you'd still see exactly the same behavior.
*i mean, X.0 regiments cost Y.0 ducats. that could be because the first X.1 regiments cost Y.1 ducats on your way up to FL, and then remainder cost Y.2, or it could be because the cost of each regiment was higher, or because each incremental regiment was more expensive without having the FL breakpoint, or whatever.
I think they implement something like Starbase Limits because fundamentally they don't think any deeper than "If we make this thing why won't someone just build them everywhere" and they say "ok just give it a soft cap that's unusable much past that."
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 03, 2017, 02:57:12 pm
That's literally what cheese means. You just said you think I'm wrong then wrote the exact same explanation.It's because they balance for multiplayer first and putting hard caps on everything makes it easier to control for multiplayer cheese.
i'm not sure your explanation really makes sense. in both MP and "competitive SP" (or whatever you want to call it) you go to war with the army you can afford. this routinely means going over FL and taking loans. if there was no FL but the maintenance cost was the same regardless* then you'd still see exactly the same behavior.
*i mean, X.0 regiments cost Y.0 ducats. that could be because the first X.1 regiments cost Y.1 ducats on your way up to FL, and then remainder cost Y.2, or it could be because the cost of each regiment was higher, or because each incremental regiment was more expensive without having the FL breakpoint, or whatever.
I think they implement something like Starbase Limits because fundamentally they don't think any deeper than "If we make this thing why won't someone just build them everywhere" and they say "ok just give it a soft cap that's unusable much past that."
No... I just said that
1) nothing about balancing for MP suggests you'd use soft caps, because people can and do breach the soft caps anyway.
2) using caps is simply their core approach to everything, regardless of whether it's for MP or SP.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 03, 2017, 03:56:41 pm
I ended up getting a huge territory and mineral income. My authoritarian faction was EXTREMELY happy with me, and between that, my rivals, authoritarianism and some other bonuses I got a huge influence income that I used to colonize and build frontier outposts. This in turn put a metric fuckton of space mining within my grasp.
Sadly I might end up restarting. I made the mistake of trying to build the mines first, then get my military up to snuff and got invaded. They took my homeworld, I took it back, now we're both throwing ships into a meatgrinder. I'm always just a *little* behind them in fleet power. I know my potential in terms of mineral income and fleet size is so much greater if I could just get a break. I might be able to get out of this with minor concessions or a white peace; my concern is it I give any ground whatsoever it will start the death spiral of me being invaded. Or getting outpaced by other factions. If I could just win one war and get a tributary, then I could start really throwing my weight around.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on November 03, 2017, 04:42:49 pm
Between "galactic terrain", forced hyperlanes, and an emphasis on static defenses, they're turning what used to be a "realtime space 4X grand strategy game", into a "realtime 'space-themed' 4X grand strategy game". Stellaris post-1.9 is going to turn into a reskin of a boring old land-bound grand strategy game, literally taking away the thing that best differentiated it from other similar games. :|
Post by: Egan_BW on November 03, 2017, 04:46:46 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 03, 2017, 07:02:10 pm
I really dislike where this game is going. :(
Between "galactic terrain", forced hyperlanes, and an emphasis on static defenses, they're turning what used to be a "realtime space 4X grand strategy game", into a "realtime 'space-themed' 4X grand strategy game". Stellaris post-1.9 is going to turn into a reskin of a boring old land-bound grand strategy game, literally taking away the thing that best differentiated it from other similar games. :|
So what is it that you think makes Master of Orion 2 and/or Endless Space 2 so different from Civilization and/or Endless Legend?
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 03, 2017, 07:20:42 pm
I'm willing to give it a shot, but this does feel like they are taking away a bit of the unique character of the game.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 03, 2017, 08:34:10 pm
The rule for Paradox games, since CK2 (and somewhat before that), is, "ship the game incomplete and finish it later via DLC."
By "incomplete" I don't mean it doesn't work, or that it isn't a recognizable game. It's more like "prove that you can make a working game with this premise, and worry about the details later."
With Stellaris you can easily see where that happened: the FTL system never really made sense. The fact FTL type was just a customization choice, with no implications for balance or anything else, also suggests they were more worried about simply showing off a bunch of methods with no idea what system they'd eventually end up with.
I mean, cmon: a single patch where they're going to revamp from the ground up: 1) borders 2) space stations 3) movement on the map 4) the wargoals system 5) apparently something about combat as well? Stellaris 2.0 is the game they should have released.
The building/tile/economy system is another one that's ripe to be rewritten from the ground up. Just watch, in another year it'll be "sooooooo it turns out that Tiles don't actually add anything to the game because adjacency bonuses are too tedious to work with..."
Post by: StagnantSoul on November 04, 2017, 12:04:10 am
Post by: Criptfeind on November 04, 2017, 09:57:32 am
I was surprised to learn there wasn't actually any other relevant adjacency in the game. Afaik the only other one is the mineral silo, but that seems like a pointless building (even if you maxed out the adjacency bonuses it'd still give less then just putting a mine in it's place, and the increased storage cap seems sorta pointless unless you're trying to build mega structures without the megaengineering technology.)
Anyway, I think the FTL changes are probably going to be a good thing. Like, yah, I can see the potential for all the different types of ftl in the game. But it just doesn't work out. They are just a morass sorta pressing against each other in an uninteresting way. Narrowing it down to one that you can then make actual decisions with seems much more interesting.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 04, 2017, 03:15:39 pm
Adjacency bonuses are ridiculously easy? Just plop a building that benefits from it beside it?
Yeah, and that's what I mean. Some PDS have even said that they had more adjacency bonuses in earlier versions (like many building used adjacency bonuses) but that it was really not fun, so they dialed it back to just a couple on the capital and that's it.
The problem with doing that is that... Why are there Tiles? Literally the only point to Tiles is to arrange worker slots graphically. If adjacency is meaningless then a 5x5 planet is identical to a 25x1 planet. In other words it's the same as just having specialist slots like Civilization or MOO2, and you invent in each slot to unlock it (ie blockers) and increase its output (ie Stellaris buildings).
Adjacency bonuses can get extremely complicated if you have Level 1 Buildings, followed by Level 2 buildings determined by adjacency to Level 1 buildings, followed by Level 3 buildings determined by adjacency to Level 2 buildings, etc. It can be an extremely complex system (though not necessarily fun). You CAN attach things like ground combat to this system. You CAN do a lot of things. Stellaris just doesn't do any of them.
Post by: Dostoevsky on November 04, 2017, 03:53:40 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on November 04, 2017, 04:02:47 pm
Like, yes, it's not a very robust system, but that doesn't mean that they might as well have made it even less robust.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 04, 2017, 04:48:20 pm
I like having a graphical representation for the planet rather than a list or some such. Also, no, it isn't complex, you plop a capital next to some resources and then you are done with adjacency bonuses on that planet.
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 04, 2017, 05:38:16 pm
Um. Yeah, a 25x1 planet would be mechanically identical to a 5x5 planet,Not really... 25x1 means maximum adjacency bonus from any tile is affecting 2 other tiles while in a 5x5 grid you could potentially affect four surrounding tiles.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 04, 2017, 05:50:35 pm
Post by: Cruxador on November 04, 2017, 08:45:04 pm
And I think the tiles could matter more if they re-do combat to take place on the map, which would be fine if they don't necessitate that the player actually micro-manage that conquest and instead do it a bit like HoI4 where it's mostly automated.
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on November 04, 2017, 11:49:05 pm
I never played Endless Space, so I can't say how different it is from Endless Legend. But I never managed to become interested in Master of Orion.I really dislike where this game is going. :(
Between "galactic terrain", forced hyperlanes, and an emphasis on static defenses, they're turning what used to be a "realtime space 4X grand strategy game", into a "realtime 'space-themed' 4X grand strategy game". Stellaris post-1.9 is going to turn into a reskin of a boring old land-bound grand strategy game, literally taking away the thing that best differentiated it from other similar games. :|
So what is it that you think makes Master of Orion 2 and/or Endless Space 2 so different from Civilization and/or Endless Legend?
I personally think it's both necessary and should have been totally expected.FTL selection is not a "customization choice", not if it's touted as the reason why moving forward with more changes is 'impossible'.
The rule for Paradox games, since CK2 (and somewhat before that), is, "ship the game incomplete and finish it later via DLC."
By "incomplete" I don't mean it doesn't work, or that it isn't a recognizable game. It's more like "prove that you can make a working game with this premise, and worry about the details later."
With Stellaris you can easily see where that happened: the FTL system never really made sense. The fact FTL type was just a customization choice, with no implications for balance or anything else, also suggests they were more worried about simply showing off a bunch of methods with no idea what system they'd eventually end up with.
I mean, cmon: a single patch where they're going to revamp from the ground up: 1) borders 2) space stations 3) movement on the map 4) the wargoals system 5) apparently something about combat as well? Stellaris 2.0 is the game they should have released.
The building/tile/economy system is another one that's ripe to be rewritten from the ground up. Just watch, in another year it'll be "sooooooo it turns out that Tiles don't actually add anything to the game because adjacency bonuses are too tedious to work with..."
If it were just a 'customization choice', we'd be having a way to have all three transit modes in equal capacity, not be forced to use only one. The weapon choice is far more meaningless, but it's kept because every empire can research the two options not picked.
We could have had Warp as the best drive system for exploration and construction, with Warp wind-up and wind-down being longer not just with distance, but with the size of fleet moving through. Those who choose Warp at startup gain that freedom of exploration and expansion, but have to research Hyperdrive and convert any existing military to it later on so that their fleets aren't reduced to one jump per season later on.
We could have had Hyperdrive as a primary drive system for outgoing military fleets, being fast to engage and disengage on entry and emergence, regardless of distance or fleet size, but limited to its travel lanes - lanes that could be seen by anyone with hyperdrive technology, and subject to blockades and chokepoints, and galactic topography. Those who choose Hyperdrive at startup can immediately start building up their navy, with no cost for later upgrades, but would end up limited in expansion and movement of their own science and constructor ships until they can research Warp drive.
And we could have had Wormhole stations reworked to be more akin to Hiver jumpgates, providing instant travel to connected stations only, letting your ships be anywhere within your empire within a matter of days, an ultimate choice for defensive fleets. Those who would choose Wormhole stations as their starting tech, would have the ability to expand their Wormhole network from the outset, at the cost of tremendously slowing down their own expansion. A Wormhole fleet would not be able to move out of a system without a Wormhole station, only into it - a Wormhole-using empire would have to send a constructor ship through to any new system they have, before being able to expand further from there.
Just like that, all three choices are viable starting technologies, and all three exist at the same time. Hyperlanes are still the best choice for large-scale military action, making chokepoints and fortifications matter. Warp is still there to provide the freedom of expansion and exploration. Wormholes are still OP as a defensive tech, but severely limit those who choose to start with them. And since one ship can only ever have one drivesystem installed, you would not have a situation where a fleet Warps into your space and can suddenly freely move around with hyperlanes. With no one drive tech being the sole choice for an empire anymore, each of the techs can afford to have actually crippling flaws, such as Warp fleets being locked out of movement and combat power for months, if not years, or Wormhole fleets being able to get stuck in a system until a Constructor ship arrives to rebuild a destroyed wormhole station, without it being such a necessarily big problem in the long run.
Post by: Karnewarrior on November 05, 2017, 10:05:43 am
You'd be able to warp any ship anywhere, but it would take, at best, a year for it to reach it's destination. Or you could send constructors out and build Wormhole/Warpgates, and these would act like "roads" that would allow very fast movement between any two systems.
Then it would play similar to a Civ game, where your forts are likely along your roads because any smart enemy is going to be using them, and if not then there's a damn good chance for you to spot them moving in and intercept them. They could even then do the warp interdiction thing: It only effects warp drives, not warpgates, but it does suck into one system any given fleet.
Post by: Cruxador on November 05, 2017, 10:17:43 am
Post by: Karnewarrior on November 05, 2017, 10:20:15 am
I'd prefer if there was a smaller version that worked similar. Oh well...
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on November 05, 2017, 11:48:48 am
A land strategy with more movement freedom than a space strategy. How in the hell.
Post by: Ultimuh on November 05, 2017, 01:39:09 pm
I wish to create an empire with as much naval capacity as possible, firepower is also good.
But I do not want play as a Fanatical Purifier, or any hivemind/machine equivalent thereof.
Any suggestions on government, civic, and trait combinations?
Also, any particular strategy to achieve naval superiority once I started a game?
Post by: GiglameshDespair on November 05, 2017, 03:20:36 pm
Not sure if I have asked this before, but any ways..Well, for ship strength you want to go Fanatic Militarist and take the Distingushed Admiralty civic for a starting +25% to fire rate and +5% evasion. Be democratic or oligarchic and take Citizen Service civic for +15% fleet cap.
I wish to create an empire with as much naval capacity as possible, firepower is also good.
But I do not want play as a Fanatical Purifier, or any hivemind/machine equivalent thereof.
Any suggestions on government, civic, and trait combinations?
Also, any particular strategy to achieve naval superiority once I started a game?
Species wise... you probably want energy and minerals. So take those traits.
Post by: Cruxador on November 05, 2017, 03:31:38 pm
I've written out this comparison on Reddit already, but seriously, Dominions is going to end up having more strategic variety than Stellaris at this rate. Dominions already has all the things that post-1.9 Stellaris will, provinces with fixed neighbors as lane-linked "star systems", mountains and rivers as gaps in the "spiral arms" to create chokepoints, different terrain types and per-province effects as the new "galactic terrain", caves on some maps that connect different sides of the world the same way new "natural wormholes" will, spells to move your armies between laboratories you own, fortifications to hold chokepoints, and much more. It also includes nations that are natively amphibious, or flying - thus able to cross rivers, seas, fortifications, and sometimes even mountains with utter disregard for terrain.Now, I've been critical of Paradox but comparing Stellaris to Dominions isn't really fair. You wouldn't expect a kid in a wheelchair to dunk on Jordan.
A land strategy with more movement freedom than a space strategy. How in the hell.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 05, 2017, 04:30:00 pm
I actually dislike what little combat strategy Stellaris has. I wish they would just make it super simplified CK2 combat and stop trying to be like other space 4Xs. They need to focus on non-military interaction between factions rather than on tactical combat, especially considering the AI will always suck at tactics. So from that perspective I rather like the changes. Especially since they allow for specialized groups. You can design forces explicitly for using jump drive surprise attacks, or defending/attacking into fortified system with an environmental effect. E.g. a fleet with no shields to defend a pulsar system. My big problem with Stellaris combat is always going to be that there's no supply limit/frontage mechanic, but i'm not sure how you could justify such a thing in space. At least now moving the doomstack has some small strategy to it.
Post by: Baffler on November 05, 2017, 04:54:09 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
tl;dr: There are more strategically significant targets on the map than you can defend with superfortresses, elastic defense is best.
Post by: andrea on November 05, 2017, 04:57:23 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on November 05, 2017, 09:01:32 pm
The combat really isn't the interesting part of this game, the nation-building is. And that's still pathetically small for a PDS title.
Post by: Hanzoku on November 06, 2017, 02:45:18 am
Post by: Sean Mirrsen on November 06, 2017, 03:12:53 am
However I found that splitting my fleet is a good choice against empires that focus on a doomstack. A doomstack can't be in two places at once, it has to split. So by having sensor coverage - so that you know where there aren't any defenses - and maintaining a group of smaller fleets you can tie up the enemy's doomstack pretty well. At that point it's just a matter of having enough firepower to wreck his static defenses and infrastructure, and bombarding those of his planets he can't protect to deny him resource income.
In realistic terms, there's really only one real problem with pooling all your armies together. The larger a force is, the harder it is to manage and coordinate. You could introduce a fleet size penalty to naval capacity, necessitating the creation of a number of smaller fleets instead of large groups if you want to maximize your total fleet power. Experience level and traits of the admiral in command of the fleet, would affect the cutoff point of the cap, allowing the admiral to command larger fleets without drawing extra naval capacity. Empire leader capacity and influence income would then naturally limit the number of fleets you can have at the same time, as leaderless fleets would start going over nominal capacity values very quickly.
This wouldn't really "solve" the doomstack problem, as the doomstack would still exist, albeit in smaller chunks. But it'd put a definite cap on how large an empire's fleets can grow.
A good addition to go along with such a change, would be monitor fleets.
Right now static defenses are really, really dumb. They're not going to get much better post-1.9, because just the sheer idea that a station can defend an area of space is ridiculous. There will always need to be a fleet.
Small problem with that is, empire naval capacity isn't unlimited. You can't build defensive fleets as freely as you can stations (and that's saying something considering how restricted military station placement is).
But, what if you could actually have a meaningful use for monitors? You can already build them, even though there's no worldly reason why you would deny a ship interstellar capacity to save a meager 5 minerals.
But you could, say, introduce some Spaceport modules (and later, Starbase modules?) that give a colony/starbase the ability to support a certain amount of naval assets. Have that be subject to expansion, with nav-cap techs, scaling with spaceport/starbase level, maybe colony pop size or colony structures.
Then, as long as it's that spaceport or starbase building the ships (because they're monitors, obviously), you could have a fairly significant amount of mobile firepower stationed within the system, without affecting your overall naval cap. It would alleviate some doomstack problems (as in-system defenses could be both larger, letting the defender operate a smaller defense fleet, and would be subject to attrition, unlike a space station that can only be destroyed all at once and can be repaired way too quickly), and... I guess bring the game even closer to Dominions. Province Defense! :D
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 06, 2017, 04:05:40 am
This is getting into wild suggestion territory, but once you have convoy raiding/protection gameplay in place you could use that to simulate supply too. When you enter enemy territory, you have a sort of umbilical cord of convoys connecting you back to friendly territory. If the enemy gets into any system along the cord they can start raiding your convoys, denying you supply or maybe even steal the supplies (thanks to maintenance, we already know what supplies go into keeping each ship flying, although presumably shipping it into hostile territory would cost more).
Post by: Criptfeind on November 06, 2017, 09:51:56 am
You could introduce a fleet size penalty to naval capacity, necessitating the creation of a number of smaller fleets instead of large groups if you want to maximize your total fleet power.
It looks to me that this at least is going to happen.
Spoiler: From the dev stream (click to show/hide)
Along with the mention of upcoming talk about "fronts" and "advancing/retreating" and "border skirmishes" I think it's safe to say we really don't have a good picture about how war is going to work out yet.... I mean, I still predict doom stacks. But idk, I sorta wanta wait and see what they are doing first.
That said, the more I think about it the more I sorta say... Meh? I don't necessarily want the game to be a super tacticool space military game. What I really want out of this update is like... The ability to trade with other nations. And maybe make friends with them in more complex and involved ways then "sign non aggression pact, come back in 20 years and you're bbf" I dunno. Maybe that'll come eventually.
Post by: Cruxador on November 06, 2017, 10:41:20 am
I mean, that screenshot is pretty much the simplest and most gamey way to address the doomstack problem... So it makes sense that's what Paradox is going for. Oh well. It's not the most effective solution, but probably not the least either. Though definitely among the most frustrating since it means you basically just have to move a bunch of fleets to the same place and end up doomstacking with more micro. It (sort of) works in games like GalCiv where combat happens separately and is instant in the strategic view, but in Stellaris you can just add new fleets to an ongoing battle so it's pointless.You could introduce a fleet size penalty to naval capacity, necessitating the creation of a number of smaller fleets instead of large groups if you want to maximize your total fleet power.
It looks to me that this at least is going to happen.Spoiler: From the dev stream (click to show/hide)
Quote
Along with the mention of upcoming talk about "fronts" and "advancing/retreating" and "border skirmishes" I think it's safe to say we really don't have a good picture about how war is going to work out yet....They always talk big though, especially early in the patch/DLC's development. It doesn't necessarily mean much in practice.
Quote
That said, the more I think about it the more I sorta say... Meh? I don't necessarily want the game to be a super tacticool space military game. What I really want out of this update is like... The ability to trade with other nations. And maybe make friends with them in more complex and involved ways then "sign non aggression pact, come back in 20 years and you're bbf" I dunno. Maybe that'll come eventually.I'm sure they'll do an update on that at some point. Hell, the new one is being touted as 2.0 so it could be soon. But the genre is ostensible about strategy so it makes sense that they should try to add some.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 06, 2017, 12:28:08 pm
Am I the only one who kind of liked HoI4's convoy protection gameplay? I've always wanted the ability to make trade agreements with other factions and have some civilian convoys flying back and forth. That could expand the military aspect too, since blockading planets could have consequences, and you'd want to protect your convoys in addition to your planets.
This is getting into wild suggestion territory, but once you have convoy raiding/protection gameplay in place you could use that to simulate supply too. When you enter enemy territory, you have a sort of umbilical cord of convoys connecting you back to friendly territory. If the enemy gets into any system along the cord they can start raiding your convoys, denying you supply or maybe even steal the supplies (thanks to maintenance, we already know what supplies go into keeping each ship flying, although presumably shipping it into hostile territory would cost more).
Yeah, at the very least there should be food convoys going between planets with surplus food and food deficits, with pirates actually being a thing and not just an early game event.
Ideally there would also be mineral convoys so that there would be some way of disrupting someone's economy without "well I invaded half your planets so your mineral production is now dramatically lower and half your starbases are gone."
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 06, 2017, 12:43:15 pm
Um. Yeah, a 25x1 planet would be mechanically identical to a 5x5 planet, but that doesn't mean it's the same as just having slots like MOO2. Since you can customize each tile with individual buildings and workers you can't have them just piled up on top of each other like you do in those games.
Ok, but what is the "customization" you're talking about? It's just Mines vs Power Planets vs Research. That's not "customization." The only difference between Stellaris and MOO2 is that in Stellaris, you have to pay a tax when you move pops from, say, Production to Research. Instead of putting the pops into the slot, you put the slot under the pop. You've still made the exact same choice ("do I want this pop in research or in production") but in Stellaris you just go about in a more convoluted way.
Quote
You have to have individual slots on the planet UI for each potential pop on the planet. (snip)
No, you don't! That's just it. Look at a Stellaris planet. Tell me how many Mining Networks you have on it. You have to count them all, right? Because they're arranged in a grid.
Why not just having "Mining Capacity: 5 pops" and a single box where you can drop multiple pops? Same with Food Capacity and Research Capacity. And then you'd have like "spare capacity" which would allow you invest minerals to increase Mining Capacity or Research Capacity - in other words, build buildings. It would mechanically be the same as the current building system but without Tiles. There are a few one-off buildings (like Mineral Processing Plants) and you'd have a special button for those, just like you have a special building for them now.
Look at this way: right now if there are two empty Tiles with no relevant deposit and not adjacent to a capital - most Tiles in the game - then it literally doesn't if I build a Power Plant on Tile 1 and a Mining Network on Tile 2, or vice versa. It's literally the same outcome either way. Then why am I making a choice about which goes where?
Post by: Criptfeind on November 06, 2017, 01:40:44 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 06, 2017, 02:06:02 pm
Certain tiles have bonuses. A 2 power bonus is somewhere I would put a power plant, because it improves the tile I put it on. That's part one of customization.
After that, there are buildings like energy grids (+20%) and the synchronicity building for assimilators (+15%). At that point, those 4-5 bits of energy I properly placed power on are boosted. That's part two.
After that, I place by customized robot population down on the proper tile. For Energy, I have a robot pop that has +10% to energy generation. Since it costs nothing to create a new buildable robot template, this is essentially free energy. That tile now has additional percentage boosts because I took a minute to think about how I could get more out of it. With organic races, I can use genetic manipulation or a multicultural civ to achieve this effect to a lesser degree. Part three.
Then, when I get civ-wide power bonuses, be they from buildings or events, my planned out energy grid gets even more efficient. With these steps I can turn that extra 2-power tile bonus into a fat stack of energy.
If you specialize (dare I say, customize) your planets you can get a lot more out of them. Not to be rude, but frankly it feels like you just don't know how to exploit the current system. It works, it's more engaging and interactive than "click to add more numbers to my list" and has plenty of options per-planet.
Also why would I need to count mines rather than mineral output in planet details? That's like counting how many wallets I have instead of how much cash is inside them.
Post by: Zangi on November 06, 2017, 02:08:42 pm
I won't mind if Stellaris evolves into Distant Worlds 2.0 in the long run.
Post by: Criptfeind on November 06, 2017, 02:14:07 pm
For me, the reason why I think the tile system makes sense over a slot system and is relevant to the game is mostly because of two things. First is because pops are more interesting and involved then just a single number, the slots would probably have to be larger then in a traditional slot system (which is a big reason why I think the tile system is relevant, because it gives you the UI space to deal with each pop individually.) Secondly is that there's so many one off buildings that are actual relevant choices that would each have to have their own slot on a planet. Things like gene clinics, slave processing plants, military academies. In a game like MOO these would be passive buildings that give planet bonues, whereas in stellaris they are active building you choose to work and make relevant decisions on who is working them, which means they'd need to have their own slots. Which really takes away the advantage of the slot system, which is it's simplicity. Once you loose that at that point there's no reason why you'd have slots instead of tiles.
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 06, 2017, 03:26:46 pm
All this talk. Distant Worlds intensifies.For all the impressive busy-ness that Distant Worlds portrays with ships flying all over, there is remarkably little to actually DO in that game regarding your economy. You make very few meaningful decisions, it just sort of happens. The background system attempts to distribute resources across planets and stations. I remember no way to create any centralized trade hubs or strategic resource holdings where you protect your valuables. I remember no way to set up a massive refueling area and prioritize it to be fully stocked so my fleets don't have to hop around sucking each starbase dry. Granted it's been a while but I spend more time in Stellaris setting up my economy than I ever did in Distant Worlds.
I won't mind if Stellaris evolves into Distant Worlds 2.0 in the long run.
Post by: Zangi on November 06, 2017, 03:38:26 pm
I didn't say that Distant Worlds can't be improved upon.All this talk. Distant Worlds intensifies.For all the impressive busy-ness that Distant Worlds portrays with ships flying all over, there is remarkably little to actually DO in that game regarding your economy. You make very few meaningful decisions, it just sort of happens. The background system attempts to distribute resources across planets and stations. I remember no way to create any centralized trade hubs or strategic resource holdings where you protect your valuables. I remember no way to set up a massive refueling area and prioritize it to be fully stocked so my fleets don't have to hop around sucking each starbase dry. Granted it's been a while but I spend more time in Stellaris setting up my economy than I ever did in Distant Worlds.
I won't mind if Stellaris evolves into Distant Worlds 2.0 in the long run.
But yea, Stellaris, you do spend a heck of a lot more time building the stuff that make the things going into your space-time warp storage.
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 06, 2017, 03:43:44 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 06, 2017, 07:54:59 pm
Here I'll break down for you how I customize my robot civ's planets in regards to energy.
Certain tiles have bonuses. A 2 power bonus is somewhere I would put a power plant, because it improves the tile I put it on. That's part one of customization.
After that, there are buildings like energy grids (+20%) and the synchronicity building for assimilators (+15%). At that point, those 4-5 bits of energy I properly placed power on are boosted. That's part two.
After that, I place by customized robot population down on the proper tile. For Energy, I have a robot pop that has +10% to energy generation. Since it costs nothing to create a new buildable robot template, this is essentially free energy. That tile now has additional percentage boosts because I took a minute to think about how I could get more out of it. With organic races, I can use genetic manipulation or a multicultural civ to achieve this effect to a lesser degree. Part three.
Then, when I get civ-wide power bonuses, be they from buildings or events, my planned out energy grid gets even more efficient. With these steps I can turn that extra 2-power tile bonus into a fat stack of energy.
thank you for walking me through how energy is calculated.
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If you specialize (dare I say, customize) your planets you can get a lot more out of them. Not to be rude, but frankly it feels like you just don't know how to exploit the current system. It works, it's more engaging and interactive than "click to add more numbers to my list" and has plenty of options per-planet.
literally the opposite. it is so boneheadedly simple to "exploit the current system" that there is no thought required to do so. when you've conquered all the fallen empires by ~2120 and have to wait 80 years just to see what the crisis is going to be, you start to think about what's wrong with the game.
in any case, nothing you said has anything to do with Tiles versus generic slots. A +energy pop in a generic slot would get the exact same bonuses as a +energy pop in a Tile.
Also, Tile bonuses are actually irrelevant to Tiles, too. You would just give them as a flat bonus to planets, since that's exactly what they are. I mean, was it a deeply engaging choice to put an Energy building on the goddamn +Energy tile?
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Also why would I need to count mines rather than mineral output in planet details? That's like counting how many wallets I have instead of how much cash is inside them.
it's like you're right on the verge of figuring it out...
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 06, 2017, 09:25:32 pm
2) I can decide not to put a building into the bonus slot if I so choose. I can decide to use adjacency buildings like mineral processing to achieve the same effect as energy. Giving a planet +2 energy that you get regardless of whether you build a building on the right spot does in fact remove options. Placing and clicking provides more visual interaction with the game world. Making decisions adds a level of strategy to the game, and while it might be thin to you or I, it creates a system to learn and master. A slot system that just places pops where they should ideally go removes this as well. That doesn't even get into things like unique buildings that don't affect Power/Minerals/Research.
3) Okie dokie Mr. Condescending Vitriol, just try not to get too much pepper in your salt over your pet theory: I don't need to count mines. I need to count minerals. Your reference to counting mines in nonsensical, because number of mines does not equal number of minerals. There is no reason to change anything from what it is in this regard, because a readout of exactly what my planet is producing is one click away. There is measurable loss including player interaction, visual engagement, and options for construction.
Your described slot system is in and of itself intrinsically extraneous, because without tiles there is no reason to have pops. You only need sliders for Power/Minerals/Research as you build buildings. A slot system adds exactly nothing to the game, removes visual engagement, and removes options that do in fact exist whether you find them worthwhile or not.
If the current system is so "boneheadedly simple" then what possible benefit could you find in measurably removing depth from it?
Post by: Cruxador on November 06, 2017, 09:41:10 pm
in any case, nothing you said has anything to do with Tiles versus generic slots. A +energy pop in a generic slot would get the exact same bonuses as a +energy pop in a Tile.Although it's mechanically similar, the feel conveyed is totally different. Not everything about a game can be effectively boiled down to how the numbers work out.
Also, Tile bonuses are actually irrelevant to Tiles, too. You would just give them as a flat bonus to planets, since that's exactly what they are. I mean, was it a deeply engaging choice to put an Energy building on the goddamn +Energy tile?
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 06, 2017, 10:30:44 pm
in any case, nothing you said has anything to do with Tiles versus generic slots. A +energy pop in a generic slot would get the exact same bonuses as a +energy pop in a Tile.Although it's mechanically similar, the feel conveyed is totally different. Not everything about a game can be effectively boiled down to how the numbers work out.
Also, Tile bonuses are actually irrelevant to Tiles, too. You would just give them as a flat bonus to planets, since that's exactly what they are. I mean, was it a deeply engaging choice to put an Energy building on the goddamn +Energy tile?
And because of adjacency bonuses, which can be exploited, you won't come out with the same production. You would have to rebalance things significantly in order to accommodate a planet-wide bonus as opposed to by-tile bonus which is further influenced by adjacency bonus.
Similar, but not the same, and not necessarily even simpler save in base interface.
Post by: Singularity125 on November 07, 2017, 12:27:28 am
Not much to add I guess but to vent, and point out that not all of us are conquering fallen empires so early (2320 I assume you mean? Since it starts in 2200). Ah well, I realize "losing is fun" is the motto around here so I'll get back at it soon enough. I've just crossed the 2400 line before taking a break so I guess I'll soon see what Crisis befalls me... I can only hope they go after the bigger guys first.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 07, 2017, 09:39:29 am
2) I can decide not to put a building into the bonus slot if I so choose. I can decide to use adjacency buildings like mineral processing to achieve the same effect as energy.
Mineral Processing (Plant) is not an adjacency building. It's a planet-wide bonus, which is just one more instance my point: Stellaris undercuts its own Tile system instead of using it. Most of the bonus buildings use planet-wide bonuses, not adjacency bonuses. In a game of planet-wide bonuses, why does the physical relationship of the Tiles matter? It doesn't. Of course, yes, the exception is capitals. But the size of the effect just isn't enough to matter. Even if you intentionally ruined your physical layout, your research would be 100% the same, and your minerals/food/power would be basically unaffected (maximum 8 different over the entire planet).
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Giving a planet +2 energy that you get regardless of whether you build a building on the right spot does in fact remove options. Placing and clicking provides more visual interaction with the game world. Making decisions adds a level of strategy to the game, and while it might be thin to you or I, it creates a system to learn and master. A slot system that just places pops where they should ideally go removes this as well.
Well, "thin" kind of gives it away, doesn't it? But ok, I see your point, especially when it comes to food/research deposits, as you inevitably build over those at some point. Fine.
But that doesn't get to the real point, does it? If the Tiles were 25x1 instead of 5x5, that wouldn't affect Tiles deposits, would it? The spatial relationship doesn't matter in the current implementation of buildings and Tiles.
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That doesn't even get into things like unique buildings that don't affect Power/Minerals/Research.
So... Unity? Other than that there literally are no buildings that don't affect Power/Minerals/Research. Which is another failing of the current system.
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3) I don't need to count mines. I need to count minerals. Your reference to counting mines in nonsensical, because number of mines does not equal number of minerals.
YES! That's exactly the point!
And how did you get to the minerals? By building Mining Networks. You had to enact, repeatedly, a specific set of actions: building and upgrading mines. And the number of times you do that is absurdly tedious - or, to use your own words, nonsensical. You are exactly right that there is nothing important or interesting about how many mines you built! But THAT'S the gameplay. That's the thing you have to do when you engage with the building system. Click Build Mine and Upgrade Mine X number of times until you've filled up all the Tiles you want to devote to mines.
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Your described slot system is in and of itself intrinsically extraneous, because without tiles there is no reason to have pops. You only need sliders for Power/Minerals/Research as you build buildings. A slot system adds exactly nothing to the game, removes visual engagement, and removes options that do in fact exist whether you find them worthwhile or not.
If the current system is so "boneheadedly simple" then what possible benefit could you find in measurably removing depth from it?
First, of course you can (and should) have pops without Tiles - that's exactly what MOO2 does. And second, you could also very well have just sliders and no pops - that's what the original MOO did, and it worked fine. But you've totally misunderstood what I'm saying.
I AM NOT saying that they should just switch a slot system like MOO2. I am saying that Tiles, as implemented, don't add anything to the game beyond what slots add except the tedium of clicking on specific Tiles over and over.
My point isn't that Tiles should be removed from the game. My solution is that there should be vastly more and better adjacency interactions between building and pops so that the system actually takes advantage of its sole redeeming feature: spatial relationships between pops and buildings on the planet grid. But the current system barely acknowledges the Tiles at all.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 07, 2017, 10:34:29 am
Complicates things a bit, but I enjoyed it. I should see if it has been updated for the latest version.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 07, 2017, 10:51:41 am
There is a very good mod I was using in the previous version that did just that. It had a ton of different buildings, including ones that had to be built next to specific tile blockers (which then could not be removed). Added a lot more thought to planets - do I keep this tile blocker so I can build this neat building, or do I remove it to put something else there?
Complicates things a bit, but I enjoyed it. I should see if it has been updated for the latest version.
If it's AlphaMod, the answer was no, last I checked. If it's not, please let us know what it is. :)
Post by: Mephansteras on November 07, 2017, 11:23:45 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 07, 2017, 12:04:09 pm
Ah, it's Landscapers! Which is really just a subset of the Alpha mod. I was using it because I didn't want everything the Alpha mod did. Looks like it does have a 1.8 version, though.
Yeah - I haven't checked in on alphamod generally or landscapers in a while and I really should. He had a lot of good ideas about how to make blockers more interesting although some of them are a bit weird in the Tiles system. Things like not clearing Jungle but instead building a research station next to it are great, for example.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 07, 2017, 01:33:34 pm
I have an thought: What if you played assimilators and then got rid of all your robots and only used the cyborg/assimilated civs? It would be like playing an organic civ that starts with cybernetic. Also, no happiness and machine civics like +20% engineering.
Fun for something different? Completely awful? What are you guys' thoughts.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 07, 2017, 01:46:56 pm
I got snarky earlier, I had a bad day. Sorry folks.
I have an thought: What if you played assimilators and then got rid of all your robots and only used the cyborg/assimilated civs? It would be like playing an organic civ that starts with cybernetic. Also, no happiness and machine civics like +20% engineering.
Fun for something different? Completely awful? What are you guys' thoughts.
I don't know why you'd get rid of your robots; you still have no happiness problems with them. When I did Assimilators I had robots with +science and cyborgs with +minerals.
There's also the Machine Worlds issue - cyborgs can't live on them. I think they will be able to next patch?
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 07, 2017, 01:59:27 pm
Post by: E. Albright on November 07, 2017, 03:48:07 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on November 09, 2017, 10:52:39 am
Post by: Teneb on November 09, 2017, 11:15:25 am
I declare Casus Belli on Alpha Centauri! (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-93-war-peace-and-claims.1054054/)Tales of your misdeeds are told from Sol to Blorg. This is a formal declaration of WAR. Our armies shall meet on the field of battle. (CK2 still has the best war messages)
The game sorely needed these changes.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 09, 2017, 11:37:43 am
Post by: Karnewarrior on November 09, 2017, 11:38:51 am
Prepare yourselves, filthy Human. The Xor'Quol are now marching to claim our rightful soil on Aurora! Our ships shall shatter your defenses and blot out the light of Sol over Earth! This is a formal declaration of WAR!I declare Casus Belli on Alpha Centauri! (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-93-war-peace-and-claims.1054054/)Tales of your misdeeds are told from Sol to Blorg. This is a formal declaration of WAR. Our armies shall meet on the field of battle. (CK2 still has the best war messages)
[ ] You'll regret this move, Xor'Quol Consortium!
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 09, 2017, 11:46:55 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 09, 2017, 03:13:07 pm
Post by: ollobrains on November 09, 2017, 07:20:57 pm
Post by: umiman on November 09, 2017, 07:43:50 pm
Just a few more centuries of patches before this game becomes great. We're almost there.
Post by: TalonisWolf on November 11, 2017, 10:30:17 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 12, 2017, 10:58:30 am
Post by: Dostoevsky on November 12, 2017, 12:58:14 pm
I want to make a race of vampires. Basically, dudes that live extraordinarily long lives and farm other sentients for "blood" (food). I don't want to purge them for food, mind, I want slave pops to serve as renewable food sources. Therefore, the gestalt consciousnesses are out. What's the best sort of traits and civics to choose for these vampires? Should I pursue the genetic engineering lines of ascension perks?
Not sure whether you're intending to play Vanilla or not, but there's a semi-recent mod that might of interest on that front: "Syncretic Plus." Starting with some delicious-trait pops, for example.
Post by: Sirus on November 12, 2017, 01:03:33 pm
Nah, I don't care about Vanilla all that much (but I don't like cheaty mods). Syncretic Plus looks perfect! Thanks.I want to make a race of vampires. Basically, dudes that live extraordinarily long lives and farm other sentients for "blood" (food). I don't want to purge them for food, mind, I want slave pops to serve as renewable food sources. Therefore, the gestalt consciousnesses are out. What's the best sort of traits and civics to choose for these vampires? Should I pursue the genetic engineering lines of ascension perks?
Not sure whether you're intending to play Vanilla or not, but there's a semi-recent mod that might of interest on that front: "Syncretic Plus." Starting with some delicious-trait pops, for example.
Post by: Sirus on November 12, 2017, 02:57:40 pm
This will get interesting fast, I believe.
Post by: andrea on November 12, 2017, 03:06:22 pm
Post by: Teneb on November 12, 2017, 03:51:23 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 12, 2017, 04:01:55 pm
To top it all off, I have two Fallen Empires very close by and cutting off most of my possible expansion. One's a xenophobic isolationist, the other is a xenophilic observer. Chances are, they'll start fighting eventually and pull me into it.
I just wanted to conquer other sapients and turn them into living blood banks, is that so wrong? :P
EDIT: Aaaaaaaaand the isolationists declared war because I dared to construct a frontier outpost that might have given a net energy gain. So much for that.
Post by: andrea on November 12, 2017, 05:01:34 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 12, 2017, 05:03:41 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 12, 2017, 05:12:46 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 12, 2017, 05:40:54 pm
To make matter worse, they're Evangelizing Zealots and they prefer the exact same worlds I do. My poor vampires are getting their asses kicked this game.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 12, 2017, 07:04:31 pm
I swear that I had turned off Advanced Start AIs. I can only assume that I had missed that, because I just encountered an empire that is, frankly, bullshit. It's massive, encompassing 9 inhabited systems and a ton of other systems. Their fleet capacity and military power are overwhelming, which is to be expected, but their tech is also superior to mine despite being so huge. I'm still in a single system! Sure, I've had no real luck with extra-solar sources of research, but I'm still a single world with a single world's population, and therefore I should be going through techs at least as quickly as them.
To make matter worse, they're Evangelizing Zealots and they prefer the exact same worlds I do. My poor vampires are getting their asses kicked this game.
In the early game, there's no real reason to think that larger empires mean slower tech. The gap between tiers is way more significant than the tech penalty for additional colonies. Going from tier 1 to tier 2 techs almost triples the cost. If you're not expanding your borders somehow, you're falling behind simply because you can't keep up with tech tier increases.
Can you attach a save game? I'm kinda curious.
Post by: Sirus on November 12, 2017, 07:37:42 pm
I dunno. If I hadn't gotten the Horizon event so damn early I'd probably have dropped this game by now. There's just too many systems devoid of resources, or with so few resources that they aren't worth the costs involved in building frontier outposts to exploit.
I'm gonna try to do something stupid and deliberately antagonize the Zealots by building an outpost or two close to their borders. Maybe it'll push their border just far enough back that my ships can get home. If not...well, fuck.
Post by: andrea on November 12, 2017, 07:49:06 pm
Post by: Culise on November 12, 2017, 07:53:41 pm
Not sure I should bother. These Zealots continue to expand, and in fact my fleet and a survey vessel are now completely cut off from friendly space due to encroaching borders + no trespassing policies. Short of declaring war (which would probably be suicide) I can't get my ships back, nor can I reinforce them. I could disband the entire damn fleet (not to mention the survey vessel) but that would be a lot of minerals down the drain compared to what I have available.There's a Return button on the fleet select screen that lets you force it to jump back to the nearest shipyard. If it cannot find a natural path, it'll ask you if you're sure you still want to force the fleet to return. If you confirm, it'll go into "Fleet Missing" mode (the same as if a closed-border power expanded their borders to cover the fleet or if a power closed its borders) and reappears there out of the aether in a few months or years. It looks like an arrow going in a circle from a dot on back to the same dot, but let me rummage up a screenshot quick...
I dunno. If I hadn't gotten the Horizon event so damn early I'd probably have dropped this game by now. There's just too many systems devoid of resources, or with so few resources that they aren't worth the costs involved in building frontier outposts to exploit.
I'm gonna try to do something stupid and deliberately antagonize the Zealots by building an outpost or two close to their borders. Maybe it'll push their border just far enough back that my ships can get home. If not...well, fuck.
Spoiler: Ping (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sirus on November 12, 2017, 08:22:35 pm
how far along are you with the horizon event chain?Well
Spoiler: just in case (click to show/hide)
There's a Return button on the fleet select screen that lets you force it to jump back to the nearest shipyard. If it cannot find a natural path, it'll ask you if you're sure you still want to force the fleet to return. If you confirm, it'll go into "Fleet Missing" mode (the same as if a closed-border power expanded their borders to cover the fleet or if a power closed its borders) and reappears there out of the aether in a few months or years. It looks like an arrow going in a circle from a dot on back to the same dot, but let me rummage up a screenshot quick...Oh snap, I had no idea. Thanks.Spoiler: Ping (click to show/hide)
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 12, 2017, 09:03:41 pm
Spoiler: just in case (click to show/hide)
so about that colony...
Post by: Sirus on November 12, 2017, 09:14:46 pm
...what about it?Spoiler: just in case (click to show/hide)
so about that colony...
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 13, 2017, 07:42:33 am
...what about it?Spoiler: just in case (click to show/hide)
so about that colony...
I'm not going to spoil it. Just enjoy the worm chain!
Post by: Teneb on November 13, 2017, 10:19:50 am
Spoiler: More details about which techs and building here, nothing else (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Actual spoiler, only for those who finished the chain or don't care (click to show/hide)
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 14, 2017, 05:06:20 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
For extra fucked-uppedness, the wealthy aristocrats among the Sanguin employ their own kind as slaves, for they are too decadent to enjoy life in which they must work for a living. Thus Sanguin society is one part sentient livestock, one part horribly mistreated workers, one part landed gentry. The landed gentry is the smallest group. The Sanguin are slow breeding; I had a concept that this might make research faster, which it kind of has, but it also had the effect of causing the blood beasts to outbreed them and slow Sanguin growth to a halt. Fortunately curtailing Blood Beast breeding rights has fixed this. If I start to run low on food, I'll return breeding rights for a time.
Speaking of faster research, I'm on only two planets and churning out a metric buttload of society and engineering research. Sanguin are great researchers and learners, and as a result I've got two level four brilliant researchers producing tech. I discovered that an ancient, dark religion on my world is in fact interstellar in origin. My scientists managed to track down multiple pieces and use them to unveil a prophecy that our race is meant for greatness. Being godless materialists, we promptly sold this tale to religiously themed mega-corporations, and then used the credits to buy data from a conclave. Then I spent a lot of influence to put a leader in charge who's agenda is increased research. All of this combined is giving us almost 50%+ research rates in society and engineering; we're churning out a tech each year and still having research time to spare.
The only nearby race aside from some fallen empires happens to share our climate type (artic for me, tundra for them). I'm sure nothing horrifically violent will result from that. The race themselves are actually amazing tho. Check this out:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: QuakeIV on November 14, 2017, 08:01:24 am
Post by: Criptfeind on November 14, 2017, 09:31:44 am
Post by: Sirus on November 14, 2017, 12:56:29 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on November 14, 2017, 01:03:05 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 14, 2017, 01:08:43 pm
What an amazing coincidence. I went with a Plantoid blood-sucking race but my livestock species is a race of space penguins named...Sanguins.That's glorious. I don't even care, its not like my blood suckers are good people in the first place.
Post by: Descan on November 14, 2017, 05:37:23 pm
psychic space vampire penguins
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 14, 2017, 05:37:56 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on November 14, 2017, 06:03:36 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 14, 2017, 09:53:02 pm
In other news... you know that interesting event that you found Sirius? And how this is my first game with DLC? With the vampire civ you inspired me to play? Well:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
What was, will be. What will be, was.
Post by: Descan on November 14, 2017, 11:46:22 pm
They stopped making it Impossible to get psychic as materialist, or robots/synths as spiritualist.
You should be fine, though a bit delayed. I think Maniacal/Genius get bonuses to chances of getting psy tech, as well as an enclave scientist, set on Social tech obviously.
E: Looked it up, and I'm half right. Maniacal is a full x5 modifier ((non-)spiritualism is only an x0.5 modifier, fan-spir is another x2 on top) BUT you need a Psionics Expert if you want to get it while retaining materialism. Not quite sure how to get one of those.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 14, 2017, 11:51:42 pm
I attacked the butterfly hive mind. They were far, far more powerful than I was prepared for. RIP. I will say, playing a total asshole felt a lot less powerful than playing a mild asshole in my other game.
Sirius, please tell me you used the three pronged beak avian penguin model so its actually the same birds. That would be amazing. And oh my god we both got the event horizon. Maybe my game is a distant prequel to yours. Or... perhaps its the same universe, but things happened differently. What will be... was.
Post by: Descan on November 14, 2017, 11:56:33 pm
Post by: Tawa on November 15, 2017, 12:15:01 am
Post by: BurnedToast on November 15, 2017, 12:48:13 am
So, I've been eyeing Stellaris for quite some time. Taking a cursory glance at some of the wiki pages, it certainly sounds like the kind of thing I'd be interested in, but going by the Steam reviews there seems to be some discontent about the game being repetitive. Would you guys suggest I purchase it when the winter sale rolls around, or should I put it off until more updates come out? I love all the other Paradox games I own, and a sci-fi game sounds like a fun change of pace.
It's hard to say, they are in the process of totally reworking some of the core systems of the game (no ETA). It sounds good so far, but who knows how it will turn out?
For the current game, well to quote myself from a different thread:
Stellaris is a very shallow 4x with a lot of greebles tacked on to give it the illusion of depth. Once you've played through the game once and figure out how it works, you realize how few of the features and options are actually viable and how many are just "for fun" or "for RP" and it loses a lot of it's magic (at least, imo).
I payed $12 for it (humble monthly) and I feel like it was worth that, but I don't feel like it's worth the $30 base price.
So, if you can get it on sale for ~$12 it's probably worth it for a playthrough or two.
I've since bought utopia/leviathans DLCs for it, and I have to say they are probably not worth it. Most of the new features in both DLCs sound great but don't actually add much to the gameplay and are just "for fun" if you want to RP your empire or whatever.
But again - who knows what the game will be like in 6 months?
Post by: StagnantSoul on November 15, 2017, 02:33:37 am
Post by: Tawa on November 15, 2017, 02:44:51 am
So I definitely think I'll pick it up come the holidays. Any DLC I need? A cursory examination tells me Utopia lets me be the Borg and/or Space Hitler, Leviathans unlocks giant space jellyfish, and the other one is about robots or something. I remember EUIV and Vicky 2 are severely worse without expansions; are any of these DLCs needed for the proper Stellaris experience, or can I get by fine on vanilla?
Post by: StagnantSoul on November 15, 2017, 02:48:37 am
What I think you should look seriously into though, is the mods. Stellaris has a great mod community, and I actually forgot New Ship Classes And More isn't the baseline game myself.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on November 15, 2017, 03:05:55 am
I don't think Utopia is essential to enjoying Stellaris but I'd definitely highly recommend it to anyone regardless of their tastes.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 15, 2017, 05:41:54 am
Post by: Cruxador on November 15, 2017, 09:37:51 am
Most of the new features in both DLC ... are just "for fun"Fun is kind of the point, though. The problem is that they're not enough to actually be fun.
Post by: Criptfeind on November 15, 2017, 09:59:21 am
I will say one really really big thing that's important to know about stellaris is that the AI is fucked. And interacting with the AI in a positive manner is basically never worthwhile. At least in my experience. They can act as speed bumps on your road to domination, or sometimes kick your can in for whatever reason. But most of the time they'll just be lumps that you sometimes kick on your way past. That was (and is) the absolute worst part of Stellaris to me, like shallow mechanics and dumb game decisions are okay and expected... But I was really hoping for more in the AI department, or the ability to meaningfully interact with others. It felt like if there was one thing stellaris should have been best at it's the ability to play it not as a 4x competition between your empire and everyone else in a race to the finish line, but as a more roleplaying sorta thing... But unless you're roleplaying a race that's basically playing it as a competition to take over the galaxy you'll be disappointed.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 15, 2017, 05:18:03 pm
There are two high-level problems I see with Stellaris.
Spoiler: problem 1 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Problem 2 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sirus on November 15, 2017, 05:25:00 pm
Sirius, please tell me you used the three pronged beak avian penguin model so its actually the same birds. That would be amazing. And oh my god we both got the event horizon. Maybe my game is a distant prequel to yours. Or... perhaps its the same universe, but things happened differently. What will be... was.I sure did!
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 15, 2017, 07:27:05 pm
I'm very much a for fun kind of guy, to the point that my biggest issue with EUIV is that it feels too much like a game compared to the character-based CKII or simulationist Vicky.
So I definitely think I'll pick it up come the holidays. Any DLC I need? A cursory examination tells me Utopia lets me be the Borg and/or Space Hitler, Leviathans unlocks giant space jellyfish, and the other one is about robots or something. I remember EUIV and Vicky 2 are severely worse without expansions; are any of these DLCs needed for the proper Stellaris experience, or can I get by fine on vanilla?
Well no, Utopia doesn't let you be "Borg" - that's Synthetic Dawn. And it's definitely the best one to get.
Utopia doesn't add too many features that aren't in Synthetic Dawn or that aren't actually free at the time of the Utopia patch.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 15, 2017, 07:32:22 pm
I kinda agree with Cruxador. It's weird. I can't straight up say "I think stellaris is a bad game." Because I've got 71 hours in it.
I never understood this sentiment. Some times you need dozens or hundreds of hours - especially in a GSG or a Stellaris-type game - just to finish one game, or to figure out how everything works. It takes that long just to find out how the game works. You're not even qualified to say if Stellaris is a good game or not for probably 50 hours.
Post by: Teneb on November 15, 2017, 08:19:38 pm
You can actually finish a Stellaris game in about an hour on the smallest galaxy size, which is nice.I kinda agree with Cruxador. It's weird. I can't straight up say "I think stellaris is a bad game." Because I've got 71 hours in it.
I never understood this sentiment. Some times you need dozens or hundreds of hours - especially in a GSG or a Stellaris-type game - just to finish one game, or to figure out how everything works. It takes that long just to find out how the game works. You're not even qualified to say if Stellaris is a good game or not for probably 50 hours.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 15, 2017, 08:35:00 pm
You can actually finish a Stellaris game in about an hour on the smallest galaxy size, which is nice.I kinda agree with Cruxador. It's weird. I can't straight up say "I think stellaris is a bad game." Because I've got 71 hours in it.
I never understood this sentiment. Some times you need dozens or hundreds of hours - especially in a GSG or a Stellaris-type game - just to finish one game, or to figure out how everything works. It takes that long just to find out how the game works. You're not even qualified to say if Stellaris is a good game or not for probably 50 hours.
sure but what does that have to do with anything?
Post by: Teneb on November 15, 2017, 09:14:48 pm
Just adding that it, unlike other games of the genre, does allow for fast games. I am not actually contesting anything you said or really contributing much to the discussion other than letting any potential players reading this know that Stellaris is not necessarily a huge time-sink.sure but what does that have to do with anything?You can actually finish a Stellaris game in about an hour on the smallest galaxy size, which is nice.I kinda agree with Cruxador. It's weird. I can't straight up say "I think stellaris is a bad game." Because I've got 71 hours in it.
I never understood this sentiment. Some times you need dozens or hundreds of hours - especially in a GSG or a Stellaris-type game - just to finish one game, or to figure out how everything works. It takes that long just to find out how the game works. You're not even qualified to say if Stellaris is a good game or not for probably 50 hours.
Post by: Karnewarrior on November 15, 2017, 09:17:06 pm
Stellaris is not necessarily a huge time-sink.But it will be.
And what will be was. What was will be.
Stellaris will be, and was, a timesink. :V
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 15, 2017, 09:29:49 pm
You do not have to play for 50 hours to know if you're enjoying a game, regardless of genre. A well designed game keeps you in the fun zone for most of your play time, not just briefly at the very end. If you are playing the game and not having fun for the majority of your time, you probably don't like it and I don't know why you would continue.I kinda agree with Cruxador. It's weird. I can't straight up say "I think stellaris is a bad game." Because I've got 71 hours in it.
I never understood this sentiment. Some times you need dozens or hundreds of hours - especially in a GSG or a Stellaris-type game - just to finish one game, or to figure out how everything works. It takes that long just to find out how the game works. You're not even qualified to say if Stellaris is a good game or not for probably 50 hours.
Post by: Criptfeind on November 16, 2017, 12:00:51 am
I kinda agree with Cruxador. It's weird. I can't straight up say "I think stellaris is a bad game." Because I've got 71 hours in it.
I never understood this sentiment. Some times you need dozens or hundreds of hours - especially in a GSG or a Stellaris-type game - just to finish one game, or to figure out how everything works. It takes that long just to find out how the game works. You're not even qualified to say if Stellaris is a good game or not for probably 50 hours.
I think it's a difference in priority when critiquing something. When I wrote that I wasn't trying to (and I'm still not really) trying to do some real in depth analysis of stellaris and how "good it is" my priority is, was it worth the money I spent, can I recommend it to people? The money for time spent thing is why the hours are important. If a game has a good 50 hours but then gets boring, but it's five bucks, even if after playing 300 hours you could say it's a technically bad game I don't think that'd be fair to it. It would be certainly worth the money spent... Which sorta makes it a good game? Despite the reservations about it? Maybe? That at least seems like a reasonable thought to me. Stellaris I'm not totally sure on that front. I spent 40ish bucks on it and got 71 hours. That's a pretty fair ratio to me. Sure, only about 20 of those hours were really good. And maybe another 20 enjoyable. And the last thirty were a bit sourer, but they were at least worth my time (otherwise I wouldn't have put them in) so can I really say it failed in it's ultimate objective of entertaining me for an amount of time relative to the money I spent on it? From that perspective even if I think it has many many failings can I call it bad? Maybe from a critical stand point if I was trying to be a critic. But I'm not, I'm just thinking about if I could recommend it.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on November 16, 2017, 12:31:26 am
I've gladly paid $60 for short games without regret, and there are plenty of games I've played a lot of that I wouldn't recommend. Why try to quantify something that's so fundamentally completely emotion-based?
I'd definitely recommend Stellaris personally, with the caveat that it can be shallow at times and you don't always have something to do.
Also different voices for the Advisor is the best feature ever made for a Paradox game. I was skeptical at first but my god are the advisors great. They each just have so much charm to it. Like the Egalitarian voice. Or Xenophile. Or Authoritarian. Or Pacifist. They're all so great! Even when droning out their version of EVADING HOSTILE FLEET EVADING HOSTEVADING HOSTILE FLEVADING HOEVADING HOSTILE FLEETSTILE FLEET they still ooze with personality.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 16, 2017, 08:23:11 am
I'm very much a for fun kind of guy, to the point that my biggest issue with EUIV is that it feels too much like a game compared to the character-based CKII or simulationist Vicky.
So I definitely think I'll pick it up come the holidays. Any DLC I need? A cursory examination tells me Utopia lets me be the Borg and/or Space Hitler, Leviathans unlocks giant space jellyfish, and the other one is about robots or something. I remember EUIV and Vicky 2 are severely worse without expansions; are any of these DLCs needed for the proper Stellaris experience, or can I get by fine on vanilla?
Well no, Utopia doesn't let you be "Borg" - that's Synthetic Dawn. And it's definitely the best one to get.
Utopia doesn't add too many features that aren't in Synthetic Dawn or that aren't actually free at the time of the Utopia patch.
Even less reason to buy Utopia:
Quote
Ascension Perks
Ascension Perks were added in Utopia as the paid component to the Tradition system to create a set of interesting choices for the player to take as they went through the Tradition tree, choosing between simple but powerful bonuses and more elaborate 'unlocks' such as the ascension paths and Megastructures. However, since then we have noticed that this is a system we keep wanting to build on (for example by adding unique Ascension Perks for Machine Empires as we did in Synthetic Dawn), and found the requirement to depend all of this on Utopia too limiting. For this reason, in the Cherryh update, we are going to make the basic Ascension Perks such as Mastery of Nature, Defender of the Galaxy and so on free for everyone. Biological/Psionic/Synthetic Ascension Paths and Megastructure Ascension Perks (including Habitats) will still require Utopia and Machine Empire Ascension Perks will naturally still require Synthetic Dawn (but not Utopia). The core system itself however, will become part of the base game, so everyone will be able to get at least the basic set of Ascension Perks even if they don't own a single piece of DLC.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-94-ascension-perks-surveying-in-cherryh.1054985/
Post by: Cruxador on November 16, 2017, 11:22:50 am
I disagree with this. Different games are different. I play the Dominions series, and someone recently complained to me that after 22 hours, he didn't feel like he understood how to play. That's an extreme case and I think 50 hours is higher than you're likely to need for Stellaris, but different games take different amounts of time to get into. Depending on the game and your personality, games are often not fun until you understand them. Furthermore, with games that employ a narrative structure (whether that's an actual narrative or simply an implication of narrative like the one commonly built into strategy games via tech advancement) you often have an early buildup to a dramatic payoff. The building may be less enjoyable to you, but is necessary for the sake of the payoff, and you can't say if you've enjoyed the whole without both of those parts. Crossing the streams a bit, in the anime thread, there was a fellow complaining that a particular character was an asshole who never really got his comeuppance - but had watched only part of the series and in the very next episode, that character got his comeuppance. Bringing this back to Stellaris, the early game feels like a build-up to the mid-game, and it's boring but has elements of interest which at least make you think Stellaris could be a fun game once you really get into the swing of things. And then you get to the midgame, and it's still boring and now there are lots interesting things going on but now you've gotten into ascension and might be starting to hear whispers of the crises so it feels like you're building up to the late game. But then you get there and it's not that great either but you've been playing this long so you see it through. And then it's pretty much over so you set the game aside and see that you've spent 50 all day playing it, so you must have really enjoyed it.You do not have to play for 50 hours to know if you're enjoying a game, regardless of genre. A well designed game keeps you in the fun zone for most of your play time, not just briefly at the very end. If you are playing the game and not having fun for the majority of your time, you probably don't like it and I don't know why you would continue.I kinda agree with Cruxador. It's weird. I can't straight up say "I think stellaris is a bad game." Because I've got 71 hours in it.
I never understood this sentiment. Some times you need dozens or hundreds of hours - especially in a GSG or a Stellaris-type game - just to finish one game, or to figure out how everything works. It takes that long just to find out how the game works. You're not even qualified to say if Stellaris is a good game or not for probably 50 hours.
Post by: Sirus on November 16, 2017, 11:54:54 am
Related question: is there any way for a robotic, machine consciousness empire to take possession of an inhabited world without killing off all the natives? Say, enlightening them into a vassal and then merging them into my own empire but leaving the organic pops in peace.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 16, 2017, 02:25:05 pm
Alternatively, you could... purge them by driving them away. Although its vaguely implied that a lot of people die when you do that, and AFAIK even if the galaxy is full of havens some of the pops won't make it. In my most recent game I was bringing xenophobic authoritarian butterflies the human institution of DEMOCRACY when a hive mind enforced their wargoal and took all the worlds I was trying to take. Which I then realized meant they were going to kill all of them :o
Fortunately some of them arrived at my worlds. I had been trying to attract other-climate immigrants for a while so I could colonize different worlds, but none came. Guess the only way the aliens would come is if they had nowhere to go. The Rutherians (butterfly people) used to have 7 worlds. Looking at the species list, there are now 50 Rutherian pops left. That... seems a bit low. By my estimation that's between 33-50% of them made it to safety, counting the 2 planets that weren't hive minded. And this is in a galaxy full of democratic havens eager to take refugees in. On the plus side, I've discovered two uncolonized wings of the galaxy, so my Rutherians will get to build anew on other worlds. And then invite their families over because building a colony ship doesn't actually use the pop.
Post by: StagnantSoul on November 16, 2017, 02:32:39 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 16, 2017, 02:59:44 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 16, 2017, 03:45:11 pm
Post by: Teneb on November 16, 2017, 03:50:52 pm
Post by: BurnedToast on November 16, 2017, 04:45:09 pm
Most of the new features in both DLC ... are just "for fun"Fun is kind of the point, though. The problem is that they're not enough to actually be fun.
Yeah, sorry I was not very clear. What I mean is they don't actually add to the gameplay, it's just something you can do because it amuses you or whatever. Like for example, plantoid DLC. Making your race plantoids (instead of humanoid or whatever) does not do anything. It does not help you, it does not hurt you, it does not add new interesting challenges or anything. It's just something you can do if you want.
Most of the additions in the DLCs are the same. Yeah, you can make megastructures, but they don't add anything to the gameplay (except maybe rushing habs but even then probably not) - they come too late and are generally not worth the cost. They don't help you win, they don't help the AI win, they don't add meaningful decisions to the game... it's just another greeble tacked on to make the game look more complex. Ascension perks, a lot of the new race options, etc... it's all the same. It's just something you can do that does not actually make any real difference to the core game.
That's not to say "for fun" stuff is bad, or even never worth buying, just that I feel like they are charging "gameplay DLC" price for what is, essentially, fancy cosmetic DLC.
Also yes - if you play to RP or screw around whatever things might have a different value to you. My perspective is playing the game as a game that I'm trying to win. Maybe that's the "wrong" way to play a paradox game, but that's how I'm valuing it.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 16, 2017, 04:56:54 pm
Post by: StagnantSoul on November 16, 2017, 04:58:14 pm
Most of the new features in both DLC ... are just "for fun"Fun is kind of the point, though. The problem is that they're not enough to actually be fun.
Yeah, sorry I was not very clear. What I mean is they don't actually add to the gameplay, it's just something you can do because it amuses you or whatever. Like for example, plantoid DLC. Making your race plantoids (instead of humanoid or whatever) does not do anything. It does not help you, it does not hurt you, it does not add new interesting challenges or anything. It's just something you can do if you want.
Most of the additions in the DLCs are the same. Yeah, you can make megastructures, but they don't add anything to the gameplay (except maybe rushing habs but even then probably not) - they come too late and are generally not worth the cost. They don't help you win, they don't help the AI win, they don't add meaningful decisions to the game... it's just another greeble tacked on to make the game look more complex. Ascension perks, a lot of the new race options, etc... it's all the same. It's just something you can do that does not actually make any real difference to the core game.
That's not to say "for fun" stuff is bad, or even never worth buying, just that I feel like they are charging "gameplay DLC" price for what is, essentially, fancy cosmetic DLC.
Also yes - if you play to RP or screw around whatever things might have a different value to you. My perspective is playing the game as a game that I'm trying to win. Maybe that's the "wrong" way to play a paradox game, but that's how I'm valuing it.
That sounds like a horrible waste of time if you're -only- playing to win...
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 16, 2017, 05:50:42 pm
But its the developer that made CK2, the game where past a certain point the only limit on your ability to conquer and raid is the tedium. So I always approach their games with a mix of RP and try-hard.
Post by: BurnedToast on November 16, 2017, 06:09:31 pm
I'd disagree with Ascension perks. They do have meaningful gameplay effects and which ones you take (and when) can be an important decision to make depending on what strategy you are playing. They may not be deep decisions, but they are certainly more impactful then megastructures or plantoids.
Some of them do, but most of them are generic and won't even be part of the DLC anymore with the next major update.
The core 3 "selling point" ascension perks - biological, psionic, and robotic are the big problems. The bonuses are ok, but by the time you get them (especially the second tier) the game is already decided.
That sounds like a horrible waste of time if you're -only- playing to win...
And I feel like it's a waste of time to specifically make obvious poor choices to "roleplay" your race. Neither one of us is correct (or wrong), there are different way to play and enjoy games.
I was simply offering my perspective from a "play to win" point of view.
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 16, 2017, 06:32:08 pm
When starting Stellaris, I knew way before 50 hours that I was enjoying the game. The mechanics and events came together to tell a story which I found to be entertaining, and I enjoyed many aspects of the simulation. If you have zero enjoyment until 50 hours have passed, you do not like the game or at the very least it is poorly designed and far too heavily weighted on the latter end of the game.You do not have to play for 50 hours to know if you're enjoying a game, regardless of genre. A well designed game keeps you in the fun zone for most of your play time, not just briefly at the very end. If you are playing the game and not having fun for the majority of your time, you probably don't like it and I don't know why you would continue.I disagree with this. Different games are different. I play the Dominions series, and someone recently complained to me that after 22 hours, he didn't feel like he understood how to play. That's an extreme case and I think 50 hours is higher than you're likely to need for Stellaris, but different games take different amounts of time to get into. Depending on the game and your personality, games are often not fun until you understand them. Furthermore, with games that employ a narrative structure (whether that's an actual narrative or simply an implication of narrative like the one commonly built into strategy games via tech advancement) you often have an early buildup to a dramatic payoff. The building may be less enjoyable to you, but is necessary for the sake of the payoff, and you can't say if you've enjoyed the whole without both of those parts. Crossing the streams a bit, in the anime thread, there was a fellow complaining that a particular character was an asshole who never really got his comeuppance - but had watched only part of the series and in the very next episode, that character got his comeuppance. Bringing this back to Stellaris, the early game feels like a build-up to the mid-game, and it's boring but has elements of interest which at least make you think Stellaris could be a fun game once you really get into the swing of things. And then you get to the midgame, and it's still boring and now there are lots interesting things going on but now you've gotten into ascension and might be starting to hear whispers of the crises so it feels like you're building up to the late game. But then you get there and it's not that great either but you've been playing this long so you see it through. And then it's pretty much over so you set the game aside and see that you've spent 50 all day playing it, so you must have really enjoyed it.
To use your example of Dominions 4, I still don't 'feel like I understand how to play' on a pro level but I knew very soon after starting my very first game that I was enjoying myself. I liked seeing the little battles with spells being thrown about. I liked making (mostly blind at that point due to my ignorance) choices about what to research based solely on the descriptions of the spells. It wasn't until my 4th game that I even knew you could make more than the starting magic items, but I still was HAVING FUN figuring these things out, I was enjoying the core gameplay and leading little armies around. There wasn't a sudden enjoyment payload that hit my brain at 35 hours and 22 minutes.
Post by: Sirus on November 16, 2017, 06:36:42 pm
IME single planet countries that emerge midgame (through liberation or enlightenment) never amount to anything. So I wouldn't worry about it. The most important thing you could do is have no gaps inside your own borders, that way they can't fuck with you by colonizing/building frontier outposts within your own space.Would frontier outposts be enough for this purpose or would I need to colonize worlds as well to keep them from snagging them?
I've never really enlightened a species to keep it in permanent vassalhood before. Usually I only do it as a xenophilic species in order to integrate them and broaden the types of worlds I can exploit with my new multi-species empire.
Post by: Karnewarrior on November 16, 2017, 07:35:59 pm
Personally I like the first one. It sounds super space-opera, and could present some interesting situations in the future, like perhaps when the crisis arrives you show up with a massive supertech fleet and save the day or something.
It's your game though, man.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 17, 2017, 12:56:40 am
Looking it up, if they're a protectorate or vassal they won't be able to colonize outside their borders. So you don't even need to clear out gaps.IME single planet countries that emerge midgame (through liberation or enlightenment) never amount to anything. So I wouldn't worry about it. The most important thing you could do is have no gaps inside your own borders, that way they can't fuck with you by colonizing/building frontier outposts within your own space.Would frontier outposts be enough for this purpose or would I need to colonize worlds as well to keep them from snagging them?
I've never really enlightened a species to keep it in permanent vassalhood before. Usually I only do it as a xenophilic species in order to integrate them and broaden the types of worlds I can exploit with my new multi-species empire.
They will get one planet worth of shared borders with you tho. So any planets or stars you haven't built stations over they'll be able to steal. Likewise if there's a second planet of the same climate really close they'll be able to take it. But even in the worst case scenario that they somehow colonize or build a frontier outpost within their borders, they'll just get a tiny bit more shared borders. And since its shared borders, if you've already built all the mining outposts there it won't change anything.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 17, 2017, 12:37:17 pm
You do not have to play for 50 hours to know if you're enjoying a game
I didn't say I did. I said
I never understood this sentiment. Some times you need dozens or hundreds of hours - especially in a GSG or a Stellaris-type game - just to finish one game, or to figure out how everything works. It takes that long just to find out how the game works. You're not even qualified to say if Stellaris is a good game or not for probably 50 hours.
I think it's a difference in priority when critiquing something. When I wrote that I wasn't trying to (and I'm still not really) trying to do some real in depth analysis of stellaris and how "good it is" my priority is, was it worth the money I spent, can I recommend it to people? The money for time spent thing is why the hours are important. If a game has a good 50 hours but then gets boring, but it's five bucks, even if after playing 300 hours you could say it's a technically bad game I don't think that'd be fair to it. It would be certainly worth the money spent... Which sorta makes it a good game? Despite the reservations about it? Maybe? That at least seems like a reasonable thought to me. Stellaris I'm not totally sure on that front. I spent 40ish bucks on it and got 71 hours. That's a pretty fair ratio to me. Sure, only about 20 of those hours were really good. And maybe another 20 enjoyable. And the last thirty were a bit sourer, but they were at least worth my time (otherwise I wouldn't have put them in) so can I really say it failed in it's ultimate objective of entertaining me for an amount of time relative to the money I spent on it? From that perspective even if I think it has many many failings can I call it bad? Maybe from a critical stand point if I was trying to be a critic. But I'm not, I'm just thinking about if I could recommend it.
I agree with most of what you said here actually, except this part specifically
Quote
And the last thirty were a bit sourer, but they were at least worth my time (otherwise I wouldn't have put them in)
This is 100% observably false - and I'm not talking about you personally, but ALL THE TIME you see people sucked into things they actually don't enjoy, either out of habit, or compulsion, and generally when they aren't critically thinking that much about what they actually enjoy.
But again, if we go back to the first thing you said:
Quote
I think it's a difference in priority when critiquing something.
That's really the main point, I agree. If you're mostly worried about "Am I constantly having fun while playing this game?" then you can set yourself whatever introductory time necessary before you start checking, and then keep checking that. But if you're interested in something else, then you may not know if the game fits your criteria for dozens or hundreds of hours.
It took me about 300 hours of EU4 to decide I didn't like the game. I still play it occasionally to check on new content, but overall I gave it a negative review on Steam for any number of reasons that aren't "I'm not constantly having fun while playing this game."
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 18, 2017, 12:19:50 pm
I have never met a single person who spent so much as 10 hours doing a thing then retroactively realized they had actually disliked all of it the whole time. I don't think that's how anything works.
Also, I don't think Stellaris or even dwarf fortress takes hundreds of hours to understand the mechanics. Dozens, yes, but only in a game like dwarf fortress.
Post by: Cruxador on November 18, 2017, 12:45:44 pm
I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Is it that a game can be good even if it is not an enjoyable experiencehe's speaking about constant fun specifically. It's expected that a game has its ups and downs, and a game that's fun overall may still have parts you don't enjoy.
I have never met a single person who spent so much as 10 hours doing a thing then retroactively realized they had actually disliked all of it the whole time. I don't think that's how anything works.I don't know anything about your love life, but I can assure you that people can spend much more than a few hours in a situation that they layer realize they hated all along.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 18, 2017, 01:13:02 pm
Like I'm looking over the last few pages are there is a lot of contradictory things being said. It reads like one of those "I have a strong opinion but I'm going to give it as obliquely as possible so when you guess the conclusion I want I can say WOW THAT'S A GOOD POINT, THANK YOU FOR MAKING IT I AGREE TOO" kind of things. And people get banned around here for being deliberately obtuse. So I want to help cut to the point, you see. No sarcasm.
But to add my two cents in clearly, I've played a lot of games with a lot of very varied people and I've never met anyone who suddenly realized, oops, they actually hated the last 50+ hours of the game. I've met people who had fun and enjoyed the first part of a game but found that it got stale later, or introduced features that they did not care for later, but this is not the same as not enjoying the entire experience.
Post by: Retropunch on November 18, 2017, 01:26:28 pm
It all depends what you class as 'fun' - many people wouldn't say the Dark Souls series is 'fun' in a classical sense, but it's 'fun' in a rewarding sense. Many people judge 4x games on if they give you the 'just one more turn' feeling - if it can keep you doing it for 50 hours that's pretty 'fun' in my opinion.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 18, 2017, 01:29:57 pm
Quote
It all depends what you class as 'fun' - many people wouldn't say the Dark Souls series is 'fun' in a classical sense, but it's 'fun' in a rewarding sense. Many people judge 4x games on if they give you the 'just one more turn' feeling - if it can keep you doing it for 50 hours that's pretty 'fun' in my opinion.
...then I agree.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 18, 2017, 03:16:37 pm
I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Is it that a game can be good even if it is not an enjoyable experience, and conversely bad even though you put 300+ hours into it? If so, are you saying that you lack critical thinking skills, and therefore spent 300 hours doing a thing you did not enjoy?
I have never met a single person who spent so much as 10 hours doing a thing then retroactively realized they had actually disliked all of it the whole time. I don't think that's how anything works.
Yeah, that's not remotely what I said, and if this is such a difficult concept to understand, I'm not sure I'll be able to explain it to you. My entire point was that the whole "enjoyable experience" and "fun" thing don't necessarily have anything to do with each other.
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Also, I don't think Stellaris or even dwarf fortress takes hundreds of hours to understand the mechanics. Dozens, yes, but only in a game like dwarf fortress.
You literally can't even get to crisis mechanics until 200 in-game years. So you have to know enough about the game to survive that long, and then no matter how well you had been doing, you find out if you had actually been doing "well" relative to the hardest in-game challenge.
And then you've only been playing one galaxy size, one ethics set, one authority.
Post by: E. Albright on November 18, 2017, 05:12:26 pm
Question: is there any point in continuing to play single-planet tall when you have six inhabitable worlds within four hyper jumps of your homworld, along with another world with primitives, and all within a single, defensible cul-de-sac?
If you're really aggressively pursuing the one-planet route, you'll still get faster ascension and (depending on how far out you push your borders to get orbital resources - it should be really, really far) probably faster research than with 7 colonies for a core. Colony and pop penalties hurt a lot more than surface facilities help in those areas. You'll get a more stable empire, but in the long run you'd probably be stronger if you waited to colonize all that. Which is one of the quirks about how Stellaris deals with "smallpox" (i.e., tiny cities/colonies everywhere with no incentive to be tall) that has always seemed silly and irritating.
Most of the additions in the DLCs are the same. Yeah, you can make megastructures, but they don't add anything to the gameplay (except maybe rushing habs but even then probably not) - they come too late and are generally not worth the cost. They don't help you win, they don't help the AI win, they don't add meaningful decisions to the game...
If you're playing one-planet, the Research Complex is a huge boost, and very much accessible in the first hundred years.
You literally can't even get to crisis mechanics until 200 in-game years. So you have to know enough about the game to survive that long, and then no matter how well you had been doing, you find out if you had actually been doing "well" relative to the hardest in-game challenge.
As a data point in support of this, I got Stellaris when it went on sale in September. Through insomnia and neglecting some things I probably shouldn't have, Steam tells me I'm pushing 300h of gameplay. I've never seen a crisis because the Fallen Empire mechanics took so long to get the hang of and/or so thoroughly irritate me (let's just say that I'm not great at Stellaris and/or my playstyle meshes very poorly with dealing with Awakened Empires) that I've never slogged out far enough to see a crisis yet. I haven't even actually had the patience to go all the way through a war with an Awakened Empire, and since I've been hooked on doing bigger galaxies, I have yet to finish a game. I've done a whole bunch of different early-to-mid-games, though.
The ambivalence and uncertainty described upthread perfectly fit my severely mixed feelings about this game that I've put ~300h into playing and really like and/or might hate. To date, it's been "just one more turn" right up to the turn when it very suddenly becomes "time to do something - anything - else". Perhaps that's where it transitions from "4x + GSG" to "just GSG"...
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 18, 2017, 09:27:54 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 18, 2017, 11:00:47 pm
I build the frontier outposts, I do my damned best to get strong researchers and research-boosting ascension perks and civics. Yet every time, I swiftly fall behind in the tech race. In this game, ferex, I'm very close to a bunch of evangelizing zealots. Their empire is huge, 13 colonies all told. They're strong enough that not even the militant isolationist fallen empire bothers them, even with their borders being pressed together.
Then there's me, with my single colony and loads of outposts gathering as much as I can. Even leaving aside the obvious disparity in fleet capacities, I'm little more than a baby compared to these titans. I'm starting to think that all this guff about playing tall just isn't for me.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 19, 2017, 01:09:02 am
The one planet build means something specific. I've never done it so I couldn't tell you *what* specifically it entails, but something specific.
Post by: E. Albright on November 19, 2017, 08:21:08 am
Soak your one planet in unity (and eventually synthetics, but I repeat myself), optimize your factions for ease-of-pleasing and max influence, cover the sky with frontier outposts, and exploit the hell out of everything (especially orbital research things) within your borders. There's a bit more to it than that, especially in terms of maximal cheesiness from the order of your fast-earned traditions and ascension perks, and typically shooting for a few specific techs to ramp up the above nonsense even higher. But yeah, it's all a fairly specific plan of attack focusing on working (exploiting?) particular mechanical quirks (flaws?) of the system so you can be at or approaching "done with traditions and well into repeating tech" by the time fallen empires might be waking up.
(And at that point, you can go crazy colonizing since the main disincentives of skyrocketing unity/research costs are somewhere between not-overly-relevant and irrelevant.)
Post by: Cruxador on November 19, 2017, 11:06:51 am
Ok, so we are saying that different people have different expectations, and can therefore have fun with different things according to their own expectations?The point isn't oblique just because you are somehow failing to understand it. Considering how everyone else is understanding what each other mean, I suspect the problem is on your end. I don't see any way to be more direct or explicit than what I already gave you.
Like I'm looking over the last few pages are there is a lot of contradictory things being said. It reads like one of those "I have a strong opinion but I'm going to give it as obliquely as possible so when you guess the conclusion I want I can say WOW THAT'S A GOOD POINT, THANK YOU FOR MAKING IT I AGREE TOO" kind of things. And people get banned around here for being deliberately obtuse. So I want to help cut to the point, you see. No sarcasm.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 19, 2017, 11:08:48 am
One planet in a nutshell:
Soak your one planet in unity (and eventually synthetics, but I repeat myself), optimize your factions for ease-of-pleasing and max influence, cover the sky with frontier outposts, and exploit the hell out of everything (especially orbital research things) within your borders. There's a bit more to it than that, especially in terms of maximal cheesiness from the order of your fast-earned traditions and ascension perks, and typically shooting for a few specific techs to ramp up the above nonsense even higher. But yeah, it's all a fairly specific plan of attack focusing on working (exploiting?) particular mechanical quirks (flaws?) of the system so you can be at or approaching "done with traditions and well into repeating tech" by the time fallen empires might be waking up.
(And at that point, you can go crazy colonizing since the main disincentives of skyrocketing unity/research costs are somewhere between not-overly-relevant and irrelevant.)
Yeah I think this is right. I've never done it myself, but from what I understand it's an extremely niche way to play that can often fail depending on galactic layout.
And I think it was mentioned that you were trying this with hyperlanes? I think that probably doesn't work at all. Needs to be warp.
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 19, 2017, 11:58:56 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 19, 2017, 12:16:32 pm
I'm still a bit peeved that I can't play as benign technologists in synthetic dawn, if I want to co-exist I have to be an assimilator, but I want to be Cybertronian damnit.Cybertronians would be ascended synth empires. Machine empires are more like Skynet, all drones in a single AI consciousness.
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 19, 2017, 12:21:04 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 19, 2017, 12:23:44 pm
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 19, 2017, 12:25:15 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 19, 2017, 12:42:19 pm
Post by: E. Albright on November 19, 2017, 01:05:26 pm
Yeah I think this is right. I've never done it myself, but from what I understand it's an extremely niche way to play that can often fail depending on galactic layout.
And I think it was mentioned that you were trying this with hyperlanes? I think that probably doesn't work at all. Needs to be warp.
If you set a galaxy option for all empires to be the same FTL, hyperlanes is in a lot of ways easier, actually, because you can cut off other empires from "your territory" that you haven't had a chance to claim yet. If you're willing to cheese a bit to do one-planet, do hyperlanes and 4-spiral. That said, I've done it with all three FTLs... though making FTL symmetric among all empires is definitely a lot more desirable here than a normal game since you have less flexibility than usual. And yes, you can easily lose on turn one trying to do this, or at least have to switch to not-one-planet to not lose.
This was the (then-and-still-out-of-date) guide that I used the first time I tried it: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1169534715
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 19, 2017, 01:16:17 pm
Post by: E. Albright on November 19, 2017, 03:24:00 pm
Galactic Force Projection is more or less a requirement for tall, I agree. Otherwise you just don't have enough fleet capacity to intimidate your neighbors into keeping peace unless they're really pacifistic, and tall is not great for continual war. To put it mildly.
Post by: Criptfeind on November 20, 2017, 06:00:10 am
At least, that's how I understand how tech and unity work. Could be totally wrong.
Post by: E. Albright on November 20, 2017, 09:42:50 am
On the side of tech, you forget a lovely Stellaris quirk: you often will be getting far, far less research from your planets than from orbital resources. So with research, being optimal isn't producing more than 10% of the capital's research output per new colony (which is easy) - it's producing more than 10% of the capital's output and 10% of the orbital output (which is typically impossible). Additionally, you're incurring a 1% penalty to research per empire pop over 10, so while a max-pop capital is getting hit for 6-10% or so, each additional colony incurs 10-25% pop penalty on top of the 10% colony penalty. It's nearly impossible to add 10% of total research per new colony early on and with early tech, and while additional tech makes it easier (but not easy) to hit that, increased pop means you're aiming to hit 20-35% of total research per new colony to stay ahead of penalties. You can get ahead of that with enough tech and width, but it takes a lot of research and time to get to that point.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 20, 2017, 10:26:38 am
Side note, but materialist is vaguely mediocre for wide because of the "dull edge" faction issue. Wide playstyles want to make up for their tech deficit by only taking techs that they need, but taking all techs even the worthless ones is how you more quickly increase your technology comparison with other empires. Since materialists have so few issues to begin with its going to be hard to get any influence out of them if you can't keep up with the curve.
Post by: Criptfeind on November 20, 2017, 10:48:22 am
It's true that once you have all the upgraded and extra unity-production buildings (preferably manned by propaganda synths for that sweet, sweet +35% unity bonus) you'll be getting about 30% of the capital's production per additional planet... but you need a lot of research and unity to get there. For most of the early game, additional colonies will be producing significantly less than the 20-25% penalty.
However, all the empire unique things you pointed out are also things that need to be researched or otherwise gotten latter in the game. Certainly in the early game when your source of unity is a monument and the capital building, another planet doubles your unity within months of touch down. Gene clinics, power grids, pleasure domes, all pretty easy to build on new planets as well. Honestly that 30% is probably about the lowest you'll go, not the highest.
On the side of tech, you forget a lovely Stellaris quirk: you often will be getting far, far less research from your planets than from orbital resources. So with research, being optimal isn't producing more than 10% of the capital's research output per new colony (which is easy) - it's producing more than 10% of the capital's output and 10% of the orbital output (which is typically impossible).
I think this is only hard if you're going all in on influence and making very optimal placements of outposts. Thus the one planet strategy. After all, remember that planets also expand your border, which means even more orbital resources from them, which help a lot at first.
Additionally, you're incurring a 1% penalty to research per empire pop over 10, so while a max-pop capital is getting hit for 6-10% or so, each additional colony incurs 10-25% pop penalty on top of the 10% colony penalty. It's nearly impossible to add 10% of total research per new colony early on and with early tech, and while additional tech makes it easier (but not easy) to hit that, increased pop means you're aiming to hit 20-35% of total research per new colony to stay ahead of penalties. You can get ahead of that with enough tech and width, but it takes a lot of research and time to get to that point.
It's worth remembering that unlike with unity, the increases in costs for tech don't multiply each other. That's 20-35% applied directly to only the base cost of the technology. So, it's not total research really (except with the very first colony) since each colony only increases the costs by the same amount as a previous colony.
I mean, of course, the real answer is that orbitals are expensive, colonies are expensive, buildings are expensive. So in the very early game when you're expanding out you'll often let research slip because you'd rather have a new mine, or a new power plant. And maybe you'll build the +2 mineral orbital instead of the +2 engineering orbital. That's what slows down research when you're expanding the most. Is you're taking the penalties without the bonuses (for research. Of course you get a lot of bonuses elsewhere). But if you didn't do that it'd be trivial for a new colony to pay for itself research wise. You're realistically really only looking at probably 2-3 research buildings (so long as they are on top of existing research) and whatever orbitals the planet grabs. And once you enter a more mid game area, and you can start to afford all this stuff, I think a wide empire is going to gain more tech more quickly then a small one. Of course, with the one planet strat, you could already have a massive tech lead since you never had to put minerals into anything but research. And be well on your way to a research station by then. And the research station is like the ultimate orbital which does skew the equation back towards improbable that a planet will match it for quite a while.
Post by: E. Albright on November 20, 2017, 06:26:34 pm
However, all the empire unique things you pointed out are also things that need to be researched or otherwise gotten latter in the game. Certainly in the early game when your source of unity is a monument and the capital building, another planet doubles your unity within months of touch down. Gene clinics, power grids, pleasure domes, all pretty easy to build on new planets as well. Honestly that 30% is probably about the lowest you'll go, not the highest.
This isn't the case, though. The moment you set down, you get the tradition price hike... but you can earn 0 unity until you become a colony a year later, and then you still need 6mo base build time to make a monument/temple/node. You don't get capital unity from a ship shelter unless you have the bonus tradition, so that means you're waiting until you hit pop 5 to get that (plus 12mo to upgrade) - and this also is required for Paradise Domes (12mo to build). Energy Grids (6mo to build) require Planetary Admin plus a tradition that's in another category to give unity. Gene Clinics take tech to build, plus 12mo. If you're counting Art Monuments in the doubling/tripling/etc output, that assumes you have 1500 energy per colony, which is a lot early on, especially if you also want to be a patron to get +20% unity and have resources on hand to buy the Ministry of Culture if it shows up.
All of which is just to say you're definitely not going to double output in a few months. You'll be lucky to double in a few years.
Not to mention the faster research synergizes with this to get you the high-end buildings and +35% unity synths to work them. You can have the high-end buildings by year 40 or 50, at which point you're not going to exceed even just the penalty from founding another colony for years after landfall.
This also assumes no tile blockers create issues... which is also more research that you avoid with only the one planet.
I think this is only hard if you're going all in on influence and making very optimal placements of outposts. Thus the one planet strategy. After all, remember that planets also expand your border, which means even more orbital resources from them, which help a lot at first.
Outposts expand them faster and cheaper. You need focused influence production, but that's not that hard, and this way you don't have to spend time building and flying expensive colony ships to their destinations, and then eating more costs while they're established and building up. You just keep pushing out your borders and digging for anomalies/natives - and if you keep your factions happy, this is affordable to a vulgar degree. As long as you still have the territory, it doesn't matter if it's from a planet or an outpost - the difference is that the outpost will cost 0.5-1 influence and energy per turn, while the planet will be a mineral and/or energy sink for quite a while (buildings, spaceports, tile blockers, upkeep) and can't man the structures built until there's population - and both building them and growing/building pop takes longer than just building more space junk.
Frankly, there should be some population requirement or something beyond a handful of minerals and a trickle of energy to create, operate, and maintain orbital collectors. It's far too fast and easy to get more from space than planetside, and while I understand why Paradox did it (so "land" has value and it's not all about grabbing "cities"), but it makes Stellaris have some very weird results.
The real advantage of width - even modest width - is resilience. I'm absolutely not convinced it's possible to get reasonable width to match one-wide height for unity or tech, but you pay for that bizarre and slightly nonsensical rapid development by being fragile, and a lot more likely to lose because the RNG didn't like you during galaxy creation.
Post by: Criptfeind on November 20, 2017, 08:18:31 pm
All of which is just to say you're definitely not going to double output in a few months. You'll be lucky to double in a few years.
Not to mention the faster research synergizes with this to get you the high-end buildings and +35% unity synths to work them. You can have the high-end buildings by year 40 or 50, at which point you're not going to exceed even just the penalty from founding another colony for years after landfall.
Look at the time scales you're talking about here. Okay, a few years until you have everything up. It'll probably be profitable unity wise quite a bit before that because yeah you probably want the +1 from capital buildings right away and the rest of the tree is pretty good too, but that's for the max profitability once you've got a few tradition trees finished. 40-50 years until the amount gets so high you can't get it back in a realistic time frame? In 40-50 years you'll have all your colonies settled (remember, we're talking 3-5 vs 1, not 1 vs infinite) and have been pumping out the unity for decades. You might have to eat a 25% increase in unity price for a year or two, but then you'll be able to make that up in less then a year once you start getting it out of your first colony.
On the research orbital thing. I'll say that I'm not trying to say you can't get a research lead via one planet and focusing on orbitals. I'm just saying that I think the only thing that keeps this strategy viable is the research station megastructure. Otherwise once the wide planets started to actually pay research dividends (IE: Once planets started to actually pay back the cost that was sunk into colonizing and developing them and you could start to put down research) they'd rocket past the single planet guy in research speed, even taking into account how they'd have a pretty large penalty to research speed. Somewhere around the mid game they'd end up with tons more planet research and an equivalent or even greater amount of orbital research. It's just that the one planet group at this point builds their megastructure, which then rockets them forward in a way that's way beyond wide for a lot lot longer. And when not talking about the one planet strat and it's just wide (as in more then a few planets) vs tall (as in only a few planets) the way the tech cost increase works means that going wide is probably at least okay for your tech. Probably even advantageous.
I don't think unity has an equivalent to technology in this way, which is why I think the optimal path for them is somewhere around 3-5 planets. There's no unity orbitals, no unity megastructure, and since you can't pour resources into unity in the early game you don't have the colonization opportunity cost there. You eat the percentage penalty until your colony starts producing, but it starts producing optimally really quickly.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 20, 2017, 09:27:25 pm
Next patch theyre totally reworking border mechanics and theyve been implying some kind unity change as well. So what were discussing here will be rendered irrelevant.
Post by: Criptfeind on November 20, 2017, 09:48:29 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 21, 2017, 11:07:15 am
On the research orbital thing. I'll say that I'm not trying to say you can't get a research lead via one planet and focusing on orbitals. I'm just saying that I think the only thing that keeps this strategy viable is the research station megastructure.
1000 times this. It's really one of two reasons 1PO works at all (along with the +200 fleet limit perk).
People keep misinterpreting the research penalty as some kind of anti-wide mechanic. It's not. It's just a weak rubber band to slow down snowballing. Wide is almost always better, including for research. Unity is a minor exception, but it's so easy to cap out on Unity anyway, it really doesn't matter.
Post by: Cruxador on November 21, 2017, 11:35:23 am
It takes a long time to cap out unity of you go wide first. Starting small, finishing unity quick, and only then expanding is a solid strategy. If you really want to do it fast, you can start as an inward perfection nation, and possibly create a forced-spawn empire of your own species with the ethics you'll eventually want, since that exerts pressure on your pops too. Of course, that has a cost in influence, which reduces your prestige outposts, so it's arguable if it's worth it.On the research orbital thing. I'll say that I'm not trying to say you can't get a research lead via one planet and focusing on orbitals. I'm just saying that I think the only thing that keeps this strategy viable is the research station megastructure.
1000 times this. It's really one of two reasons 1PO works at all (along with the +200 fleet limit perk).
People keep misinterpreting the research penalty as some kind of anti-wide mechanic. It's not. It's just a weak rubber band to slow down snowballing. Wide is almost always better, including for research. Unity is a minor exception, but it's so easy to cap out on Unity anyway, it really doesn't matter.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 21, 2017, 11:52:01 am
It takes a long time to cap out unity of you go wide first.
Yes, but let's quantify the exact benefits. Like what perks are you getting, how many years sooner is each coming? How many years of X benefit is that? How does it compare to just going (sensibly) wide from the start?
(And certain picks don't really matter, right? Like Defender of the Galaxy literally does nothing for 200 years. Galactic Contender can't do anything until you're wide enough to fight a FE/AFE anyway. You're not going to use Voidborne right away if you're tall.)
Post by: Shadowgandor on November 22, 2017, 08:48:50 am
Galactic Wonders could also fit a tall empire pretty well.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 22, 2017, 01:03:42 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Greiger on November 22, 2017, 03:29:27 pm
Soon you will have your very own pet adorable fluffy murderous enclave.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 22, 2017, 05:33:29 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 22, 2017, 05:37:15 pm
If I get lucky with resource spawns in the other nearby systems, this might just be the time to go single-planet tall. Rush Mega Engineering as quickly as possible, save up minerals, and then proceed to steamroll the galaxy research-wise.
Post by: andrea on November 22, 2017, 05:44:22 pm
Sadly, I ran out of room to expand and upkeep is killing me. With almost the entire rst of the galaxy in a single federation ( and me with inward perfection and no diplomacy), I think I will need to start settling. I am terraforming all the planets in my arm of the galaxy.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 23, 2017, 03:23:49 am
[Adorable high pitched voice]The galaxy awaits the reign of Executor Odnal, and you want negotiations?[/adorable high pitched voice]Yeah, so the adorable starfish aliens? The tiny, tiny piece of space that I didn't cut them off from contained the Sol system. Where humans were engaged in what was heavily implied to be WW2... while meanwhile, they shared Earth with a race of pre-sentient humanoid birds called the Jaazijan. Don't remember that from the history books, but sure.
Soon you will have your very own pet adorable fluffy murderous enclave.
The cost-benefit ratio of taking Earth had me somewhat uncertain, but the fact that it would achieve control of every single hyperlane out of Karabnar space settled it. Unfortunately, I found the Karabnar fleet, The Anchor, in orbit around Earth bombing the shit out of it. I assumed that it was a lost cause and decided to turn my efforts to other issues.
Flash forward 5 years. The Karabnar spent half that time bombing Earth, then went home. They never invaded. I clicked on Earth to see all of the humans' primitive farms and factories were bombed out husks. These cute aliens just attacked all sides of WW2, reducing the entirety of Earth into ruins, for shits and giggles. Literally just broke everything and merrily sailed away. When I sent my invasion fleet to plant my flag on what remained, and my fleet hung in orbit bombing Earth, they sent their fleet back and joined me (their enemy, with transports in the system) in bombing Earth. Presumably just for fun.
Quickedit: The millisecond I unpaused they declared war. Guess they don't take kindly to being completely encircled, heh. Sucks to be them because my fleet is already significantly larger than theirs, I'm not at my capacity yet, and I'm starting up some fairly early cruisers.
Post by: E. Albright on November 23, 2017, 03:58:37 am
Spoiler: Potential minor missed opportunity (click to show/hide)
Post by: Paul on November 23, 2017, 09:56:52 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 23, 2017, 03:49:01 pm
Pretty sure I would have gotten it if I was playing Ironman, but I don't play Ironman in Paradox games.Spoiler: Potential minor missed opportunity (click to show/hide)
Post by: umiman on November 23, 2017, 11:38:05 pm
I feel so alone.
Where is everyone?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Hello?
Hello?
We're supposed to consume all life and convert everything into robots, but there's no one for us to even eat. We're all alone... :(
Post by: Ultimuh on November 23, 2017, 11:47:21 pm
Spoiler: SPACE DWARVES! (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sirus on November 24, 2017, 12:29:03 am
Post by: Cruxador on November 24, 2017, 02:05:11 am
Post by: Ultimuh on November 24, 2017, 02:06:36 am
I hate the "fat goth with emo hair" alien, and the rest I'm ambivalent about; it adds some variety, which is goodAccording to the devs, there should be around 10 portraits in that pack. Several which we haven't even seen.
Also, I think the "emo hair" is just one style to choose from.
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 24, 2017, 03:28:57 pm
And also a new city style and ship set. Of what we see so far, I really like the new ships, I hate the "fat goth with emo hair" alien, and the rest I'm ambivalent about; it adds some variety, which is good, but not enough for me to spend ten bucks on.Emo orc is best orc
Post by: Rolan7 on November 24, 2017, 09:37:53 pm
They have and had clickable zoom buttons in CK2 which work just fine for me. But not here, and no hotkey. This is really awful.
I'm reserving my profanity, though, for the people on the Paradox forums who constantly link to mice on amazon or talk about "current year". It's literally half "buy a mouse", almost half "figure out the trackpad I assume you have" (no love for clitmice), and then a couple useful instructions for autoHotKey etc.
Those people can go to hell, except for the last ones who are very kind but make me want to cry. Dammit, Paradox, I expected shit like this to be fixed this long after launch. Basic usability, fuck's sake.
Post by: StagnantSoul on November 24, 2017, 09:40:50 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on November 24, 2017, 09:48:17 pm
You're probably just poking fun because I'm mad, which is cool... I do feel better now, honestly. But I hope you actually realize that this is a really poor, completely unnecessary failure in UI. I honestly expected it to be fixed by now, because I have a lot of faith in Paradox.
Post by: Ultimuh on November 24, 2017, 10:11:06 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on November 24, 2017, 10:26:11 pm
standard is + and -, maybe try just hitting those and seeing if they do something?
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 24, 2017, 10:29:47 pm
I would literally refund the game right now if I hadn't already had a good long time with an earlier version from... a friend. On my desktop.https://steamcommunity.com/app/281990/discussions/0/357285562492342873/#c357286663680612337
You're probably just poking fun because I'm mad, which is cool... I do feel better now, honestly. But I hope you actually realize that this is a really poor, completely unnecessary failure in UI. I honestly expected it to be fixed by now, because I have a lot of faith in Paradox.
Post by: Egan_BW on November 24, 2017, 10:34:05 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on November 24, 2017, 10:34:58 pm
I would literally refund the game right now if I hadn't already had a good long time with an earlier version from... a friend. On my desktop.https://steamcommunity.com/app/281990/discussions/0/357285562492342873/#c357286663680612337
You're probably just poking fun because I'm mad, which is cool... I do feel better now, honestly. But I hope you actually realize that this is a really poor, completely unnecessary failure in UI. I honestly expected it to be fixed by now, because I have a lot of faith in Paradox.
and then a couple useful instructions for autoHotKey etc.^
Those people can go to hell, except for the last ones who are very kind but make me want to cry.
And that's a really quirky hack, hardly a fix. Certainly not by Paradox.
Any game should have keybinds for zooming in or out. Provided that zooming in and out is a feature in said game.Thanks, but + and - are the speed controls. And the keypad ones don't work either. Neither do pgup or pagedwn, which would be the painfully obvious choices IMHO
standard is + and -, maybe try just hitting those and seeing if they do something?
So you are blaming the developers, for your own hardware issues?They recognized and addressed laptops in CK2, and here they simply didn't bother. Hotkey nor buttons. That's simply lazy/dismissive.
To be honest, I didn't figure out how to use the scroll-zone on my touchpad for a long time (it's unmarked). It requires two fingers in specific spots- but whatever, I'm playing something else now. Clausewitz makes my 2-year-old laptop get blazing hot anyway, so I'm playing a much older and arguably better game. Which still works, AND has (gasp) bindable controls.
Edit: The game was N++, for the record, I wasn't hinting at CK2 or something. I'm pretty sure CK2 doesn't have binds either. But at least it has the icons.
Also "E" (IIRC) does enter or leave a system, which is nice. I meant to mention that earlier but there were new replies. It's just not enough, though, especially since I started as the Commonwealth (who start on a moon). Really needed to zoom a lot.
Post by: E. Albright on November 24, 2017, 11:03:24 pm
Post by: umiman on November 25, 2017, 01:28:43 am
If there as no zoom controls and I tried to play on a laptop, I'd be pissed too. Hell, I got pissed when Warhammer 2 released without zoom hotkeys either.
-----------
I just completed the most boring Stellaris campaign. It was the one before where I posted I was alone in the galaxy.
See, it turned out all the other species were spawned on the other half of the map. So I had one entire half to myself. The two FEs and three other factions were all cramped together on the other half.
So here I was, an overpowered robot race which could settle anywhere with no penalty, no need for food or happiness or anything fleshbags need. Perfect unity with every citizen in my ginormous empire. So I very quickly consumed the entire half I had. Making me ridiculously powerful with no comparison, while all the other factions fought with themselves.
Nothing happened the entire game. No crisis event spawned. The FEs never awakened or fought anyone. No disasters or major wars. Hell, I don't think anyone actually fought anyone else.
Here I was, twiddling my thumbs waiting for a crisis to take place. I defeated every single guardian. Made a Dyson Sphere. Turned all my core worlds into machine worlds.
Eventually I got so bored of waiting I just declared a war for the second largest AI. After winning easily, this gave me control of 75% of the galaxy and I won a supremacy victory.
Maybe I was the crisis all along...
Post by: Sirus on November 25, 2017, 08:32:48 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 25, 2017, 08:47:44 pm
And then umiman was the Contingency.
When you accidentally get some Miroslav Butter on your AI Chocolate.
Post by: umiman on November 25, 2017, 09:02:37 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 25, 2017, 09:04:04 pm
Post by: Twinwolf on November 25, 2017, 09:19:24 pm
Post by: umiman on November 25, 2017, 09:37:44 pm
How badly did sone of those guys fail to expand?Hmm...
I actually started my expansion by going down. So I think I kinda walled off the Faffosan Mandate really early on alongside the other bird empire that was there. It's the one I completely consumed in the picture.
Then because there was no more space in the bottom, I just went up. I just kept going up and up and up until I ran into the FE.
I think the reason I could expand so much faster than anyone else, alongside the fact that I had no enemies or rivals to speak of, was that robots can settle anywhere with virtually no penalty. So the only thing stopping me from just landgrabbing the entire galaxy was influence.
Post by: QuakeIV on November 26, 2017, 12:14:00 am
Post by: StagnantSoul on November 26, 2017, 12:38:12 am
Post by: Ultimuh on November 26, 2017, 01:59:29 am
Especially if it's on sale.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 26, 2017, 08:25:37 pm
So, some things on sale - is Utopia worth $13.39?
No. It adds very little to the game and will add less once the next patch comes out.
You can get virtually the same content by buying Synthetic Dawn, which is also cheaper.
Utopia is probably worth it at 50% off or more.
Post by: StagnantSoul on November 26, 2017, 08:57:27 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 26, 2017, 09:46:09 pm
Synthetic Dawn only adds more if you need robits. Otherwise, it's a rather shallow pack. That said, I love it to the extreme, but Utopia adds more to the game overall.
Wrong. If you don't care about robots, but, for example, want to play Fanatic Purifier-style, you can play either actual Fanatic Purifiers (Utopia) or you can play Determined Exterminators (Synthetic Dawn) for mostly the same effect. Same thing with the other Utopia-exclusive civics: they are mostly mirrored in SD, but for cheaper and with more actual content (extra FE, extra crisis, regular machine empires in addition to "special" machine empires).
Utopia adds Ascension Perks, but those will mostly be in the base game as of next patch anyway. A few will require Utopia (bio/psi/machine ascension paths) but some will be moved to SD instead (obviously the machine Ascension Perks). Utopia also adds buildable megastructures, but you can repair damaged ones without DLC anyway, so it's not like you're missing much.
The real killer is that Utopia costs double what Synthetic Dawn costs. It really doesn't make much sense.
Post by: StagnantSoul on November 26, 2017, 10:03:20 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 26, 2017, 11:56:40 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 27, 2017, 08:12:48 am
Post by: umiman on November 29, 2017, 02:32:21 pm
How are the meatbags supposed to stand a chance?
I've done two campaigns with two different kinds and both have been complete cakewalks.
I mean.
1. Live anywhere with no unrest or happiness penalities ever. Colonize the entire galaxy out of the gate no problem.
2. Only need minerals and energy, meaning maximum efficiency for resources.
3. Leaders are immortal for ridiculous stats.
4. Armies are one of if not the strongest in the game.
How is anyone even supposed to compete with point #1 let alone all of the above? If you don't kill them early while they're expanding across the entire galaxy, you'll never be able to deal with them as they'll out resource you any day of the week due to everyone else needing three resources. Also the fact that they have no happiness penalties also means more resources. Am I missing something? Do they have a weakness I'm not aware of?
Post by: Kruniac on November 29, 2017, 02:41:29 pm
I think robots are overpowered as all fuck.
How are the meatbags supposed to stand a chance?
I've done two campaigns with two different kinds and both have been complete cakewalks.
I mean.
1. Live anywhere with no unrest or happiness penalities ever. Colonize the entire galaxy out of the gate no problem.
2. Only need minerals and energy, meaning maximum efficiency for resources.
3. Leaders are immortal for ridiculous stats.
4. Armies are one of if not the strongest in the game.
How is anyone even supposed to compete with point #1 let alone all of the above? If you don't kill them early while they're expanding across the entire galaxy, you'll never be able to deal with them as they'll out resource you any day of the week due to everyone else needing three resources. Also the fact that they have no happiness penalties also means more resources. Am I missing something? Do they have a weakness I'm not aware of?
The only thing I can think of is that since they will have a larger than normal mineral and energy burden, raiding their mining installations and destroying outposts will have a more dramatic effect on them.
If I lost a critical outpost or two, I lose some income and it hurts. My population is fine, and we keep eating cheeseburgers. If droids lose a critical outpost or two, they potentially begin to spiral into an energy/mineral deficit, and if they run out of energy, they are basically boned.
Post by: umiman on November 29, 2017, 02:50:35 pm
1. They research straight up better than everyone else. Not like, research 10% faster or whatever. They don't even have the research cards for food or colonization stuff come up. So they can skip entire sections of the tech tree and go straight to the good shit.
2. Machine world terraforming makes them straight up 15% better than everyone with no access to machine worlds in the late game.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 29, 2017, 03:09:33 pm
I just thought of another few things they can do.
1. They research straight up better than everyone else. Not like, research 10% faster or whatever. They don't even have the research cards for food or colonization stuff come up. So they can skip entire sections of the tech tree and go straight to the good shit.
2. Machine world terraforming makes them straight up 15% better than everyone with no access to machine worlds in the late game.
Doesn't the machine worlds thing just balance out the happiness/synth/psionic/erudite/etc loss?
The ability to skip all the food and climate colonization techs is pretty good, though.
Post by: Criptfeind on November 29, 2017, 03:32:19 pm
Food: Well. First off that food isn't a big deal for organics really. A few food tiles does it for a planet, more if you want faster growth. But also Robots eat electricity at the same rate organics eat food. So resource wise you're pretty close to even there (maybe even food is better, since you get to exploit the food bonus resources) since you basically have to replace farms with power plants. Later on when you've got energy grids and capacity overload power plants probably make more energy then farms make food. But it's close. However, having to build your pops is very expensive in the early game, when minerals are super tight, actually affording 100 bucks per pop is... Very expensive. It'll slow you down in other ways.
Happiness is a big deal and a big negative to robots. Being fully happy is a +20% production bonus. Also without factions you loose out a major source of influence. You're going to end up with way less edicts (IE: Less planet production) and orbitals then a organic race.
Leaders are Immortal: However, organic leaders last for a very very long time. You'll only need to swap out leaders once or twice in a organic game, and a lot of positions gain exp really quick later on in the game, meaning they'll max out their levels quickly. Also robot leaders aren't properly immortal, I believe they die to random events.
Armies: Don't matter.
Machine worlds: Are an okay ascension path. I think it's probably weaker then the synthetic accession path. Which makes you 20% (25% actually because it gives leaders a +5% to almost everything) better at everything. Fully happy Synths are going to get a +40% bonus to production.
Being able to skip some researches is nice. And so is the ability to colonize everywhere right away. It certainly is a really big bonus to robots to be able to do those things, but everything else about robots sorta sucks compared to organics. Robots may or may not (idk) be better, but I don't think it's a crazy big gap.
Post by: Twinwolf on November 29, 2017, 03:38:48 pm
Leaders are Immortal: However, organic leaders last for a very very long time. You'll only need to swap out leaders once or twice in a organic game, and a lot of positions gain exp really quick later on in the game, meaning they'll max out their levels quickly. Also robot leaders aren't properly immortal, I believe they die to random events.
Uh, what? I seem to have missed something in Utopia (which is entirely possible, haven't played with it a ton yet) because replacing leaders only once or twice over the course of a game as organics seems crazy :P
Post by: Criptfeind on November 29, 2017, 03:51:55 pm
Of course if you pick species traits that increase or decrease lifespan you'll see some changes there as well. I dunno how much utopia changed it up.
Also assist research gives a big bonus, but the bonus doesn't increase that much from more levels. So what ends up happening about mid game is you have a bunch of high level scientists assisting research, and when one of your tech scientists dies, you send a highly leveled scientist with a good trait to take over, and then hire a new guy to assist research. So even death of your important people isn't a big deal.
Post by: umiman on November 29, 2017, 04:16:29 pm
I think the gigantic early game advantage is massive though, since it snowballs so easily. If it was an MP game, it'd be no contest.
About the food thing, it's not that simple because power is super easy to get and not only do they come from planets, but asteroid bases as well. I can tell you power is not a concern as robots. They barely use any. It's minerals that are a huge issue. So every planet starts maxing for minerals and you end up with a gigantic mineral production line. Not to mention for organics you actually have to build food buildings and thus, "waste" the tile space for them. Robots get to optimize it.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 29, 2017, 04:21:31 pm
Re: organic leaders, I find myself replacing them several times over the course of the game. In fact, since I like to run a full staff, I often find that I have to replace entire generations of governors/scientists/admirals at the same time and it can be a huge problem. If I haven't been great about training replacements in advance I often get power dips when my 3 researchers or my 1 good admiral dies.
Edit: Criptfiend, WTF are you feeding those guys? IME lifespan is *max* lifespan not average. I can be up to the repeatable lifespan tech and still have deaths at 75, sometimes earlier. Are you running the one planet strat and researching a new lifespan tech every 5 years?
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 29, 2017, 04:27:21 pm
Post by: umiman on November 29, 2017, 04:32:38 pm
By having 5 players as robots and 5 organics, and watching the inevitable
Post by: Criptfeind on November 29, 2017, 04:54:45 pm
Criptfeind: Sounds like Robots trade a gigantic early game advantage for a late game penalty compared to Synths. What about the other paths? Do they compare?
The other paths are okay. Synths get +20% to everything, and synth leaders get +5% to most things. You can also customize each pop for what resource you want it to make, like robots can (once you get synth though, the pop before synth are probably going to be stuck in some general path because it'd be micromangement hell to try to change them). Psi is okay, they get +10% to research and energy, and +5% happiness, and leaders get +10% to most things (except energy and minerals, but they do give bonuses to unity, which synths don't). Bio path... Well, depends on what you do. I don't think it's nearly as good as the other two. Realistically the bonuses are I think enough to wipe out whatever bad traits you picked, pick up a new general trait, and pick up a super trait. Since you don't get more picks you can't super minmax your race. I think the best super trait is probably +20% to science. My Alpha T'shalan get +20% to research, +20% to minerals, +15% to energy, and +20 years lifespan. The lifespan is just for roleplaying, and would be better off as something else. But really only the +20% research and +15% energy came from the ascension path. So that's the only real bonus there. Your leaders don't get any bonuses from the bio path. Which is a shame. You could try to like, gene engineer your dudes for their specific jobs with the bio path but since you can only do it world by world that sounds like absolute hellish amounts of micromanagement to me.
And you're right that the ascension bonuses are probably irrelevant in that they come too late into the game and you snowball. But the happiness bonuses come in very early, maybe not the +20%, but even at the start you'll have a at least relevant bonus to production from happiness and bonus influence to allow you to run more edicts or have more orbitals. I do think robots are probably just worse then organics 1 for 1, just that the ability to go super wide like you say is the strongest ability because the game super rewards going wide (with some exceptions). I think so long as you balance it okay (like obviously not doing extra colonies when you should be waring) it is a really big advantage. To be clear I dunno what is actually better with full minmax and all that. And I've not played robots nearly as much as I've played organics. I just don't think it's as overwhelming of a difference as I seemed to read from you at first since organics have a LOT of bonus over robots (or certain bonuses that robots get like immortal leaders don't actually matter very much) that might not be immediately obvious at first. I also find myself extremely crunched on every resource in almost every game until after the first war or two, and my feeling is robots let you spend more resources for development, whereas organics will probably actually get you more per pop. Eventually developing more will overwhelm when the returns come in. But I'm not actually sure if they'll come in early enough to be worth the costs you pay, assuming you have you know, a pretty typical couple thousand fleet power early war.
That said with the food stuff:
About the food thing, it's not that simple because power is super easy to get and not only do they come from planets, but asteroid bases as well. I can tell you power is not a concern as robots. They barely use any. It's minerals that are a huge issue. So every planet starts maxing for minerals and you end up with a gigantic mineral production line. Not to mention for organics you actually have to build food buildings and thus, "waste" the tile space for them. Robots get to optimize it.
You can sorta just replace power with food and robots with organics in the highlighted line. Organics don't need much food. You just get by with a few tiles for upkeep and maybe a bit extra for growth (just like robots would with power... And yes, orbital power is a thing, but that just means that organics need even fewer power plants on their planets) and minerals (and research) are the main thing you actually want to build.
There's also probably a big thing with start location. If you start in a big open area and can just expand expand expand I'd certainly rather be robots. But I've had starts (my current game in fact, although it's almost over) where I start in between two hostile powers with like 8 planets, 6 of which are 60% or more habitable.... Really glad I'm not robots in that one. Although I do play on hyperlanes and often with galaxies that have arms, which makes that sorta thing way more common then it probably is in most games.
Multiplayer sounds fun. Although I think it'd probably come down to player skill more then actual mechanical advantage. :P I assume I'd get fucking crushed because I'm pretty bad at most games like this.
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 29, 2017, 05:05:25 pm
I think this problem can easily be tested and resolved in MP.Sounds like a plan. Who's up for The End Of Flesh, Bay12 Multiplayer extravaganza?
By having 5 players as robots and 5 organics, and watching the inevitableslaughter of useless moleculesmass-murder of inferior creationsobliteration of organicsone-sided bloodbath, keyword being blood as the superior being doesn't have itextermination of the worthless meatbagsconflict that would occur.
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 29, 2017, 05:08:13 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on November 29, 2017, 05:11:56 pm
Or you know, Nerve staple the egalitarians.
Post by: umiman on November 29, 2017, 05:24:27 pm
I'm totally in.I think this problem can easily be tested and resolved in MP.Sounds like a plan. Who's up for The End Of Flesh, Bay12 Multiplayer extravaganza?
By having 5 players as robots and 5 organics, and watching the inevitableslaughter of useless moleculesmass-murder of inferior creationsobliteration of organicsone-sided bloodbath, keyword being blood as the superior being doesn't have itextermination of the worthless meatbagsconflict that would occur.
I actually want somehow to school me as I want to see robots be not as OP as I'm thinking. But I will be playing robots myself. Bring it on!
Post by: Twinwolf on November 29, 2017, 05:25:21 pm
-snips about aging-Not in my experience, at least - in the one game that I've "completed" (i.e. beat the endgame crisis) I had to change out leaders far more frequently than that, and while I didn't have any life-extending traits I didn't have shortening ones either. Maybe it was because I never really cared about the lifespan boosting techs? But anyway, I certainly had to swap leaders several times.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 29, 2017, 05:26:27 pm
It's sorta okay but it just mostly makes me sad that you can't individually modify a pop. I mean, late game I'm pretty much done with my sim citing, I'd appreciate the ability to go though and sometimes click some buttons on my planets to get some nice percentage bonuses."Some people believe we're all equal. We've genetically modified those people, now they're objectively inferior. Join the materialist faction today for more wonders of science."
Or you know, Nerve staple the egalitarians.
Post by: Karnewarrior on November 29, 2017, 05:46:35 pm
~Academician Prokhor Zakharov, Retroviral Engineering and you!It's sorta okay but it just mostly makes me sad that you can't individually modify a pop. I mean, late game I'm pretty much done with my sim citing, I'd appreciate the ability to go though and sometimes click some buttons on my planets to get some nice percentage bonuses."Some people believe we're all equal. We've genetically modified those people, now they're objectively inferior. Join the materialist faction today for more wonders of science."
Or you know, Nerve staple the egalitarians.
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 29, 2017, 06:31:37 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 30, 2017, 11:12:11 am
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-96-doomstacks-and-ship-design.1058152/
Color me skeptical about the mechanics described here. I don't think they're going to add up to anything.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 30, 2017, 11:45:49 am
Also: Did EUIV or Crusader Kings ever get this many changes with its combat system? Because I feel like every other major patch, Stellaris almost completely overhauls how it works. Not that I'm complaining so long as it improves with each iteration, but I would have thought that they'd have settled on something by now. I guess that the sci-fi setting means they aren't bound by simulationist concerns and can make broader changes or something.
Post by: Cruxador on November 30, 2017, 11:54:36 am
Well, the new dev diary on doomstacks went up:By themselves I agree, but with hyperlanes and slower movement, and with system stations adding meaningful targets, it could actually work.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-96-doomstacks-and-ship-design.1058152/
Color me skeptical about the mechanics described here. I don't think they're going to add up to anything.
Slower movement wasn't actually announced though.
Post by: umiman on November 30, 2017, 12:01:24 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 30, 2017, 12:27:18 pm
What the fuck is this nonsense balancing mechanic...I am modding it out as soon as it rolls in. That's complete nonsense. They should've added organic pathways for players to conduct asymmetric warfare, like psionic invasion of enemy pops minds, synthetic infiltration of enemy pops & planets, covert agents, assassination, faction support, genetic viruses and one of the most obvious - viable hit and run fleet actions, so a small fleet is more capable of attacking and retreating quickly with little damage sustained in retreat. Punishing an Empire for devoting more of their industry to a larger fleet makes no sense, of course it yields non-linear benefits strategically because that's the bloody point. The Empire in question is taking the risk that they can turn that strategic advantage into a decisive short term gain or else suffer the consequences for not having devoted that material to research instead. With that dumb mechanic there is no downside to focusing on economy over defence, because your defence force will with its technology bonus AND an arbitrary increase to fire rate for having the weaker force, you will outpace your enemy whether in peace or war. That smaller ships can disengage easier also does not help the situation where large ships are useless and there is no reason not to simply spam the first ships you get. Would've thought that perhaps the command limit size would at the very least incentivize a unit of 30 battleships instead of 30 corvettes, but no it scales to ship size not number. The issue was not that a large fleet destroyed a small fleet, the issue was that upon losing your fleet the sheer uselessness of Fortresses meant that all of your planets were occupied before you could amass a challenging fleet.
I actually wanted to praise the decision to bring multiple role computers back but then:
Quote
As we still do not want one ship class to be able to fill every possible role, we have still restricted which computers are available to which classes (for example, Corvettes can choose Swarm or Picket) but there is always at least two choices available for your design.Forcing this nonsense rather detracts from it all. Why can't I create maximum armoured battleships with no weapons that charge into the enemy while my firing line of sniper-destroyers does the real work? Why can I not have a unified fleet doctrine to remain at mid-range for all of my ships providing mutual missile support? Why must there be such limits to everything that only swarmvettes are viable in the end?
I just question why the design philosophy is not "how do we make useless ships useful" but "how do we restrict the useful ships" when it comes to incentivizing player fleet compositions
*EDIT
Lmao the mods are deleting critical comments. Still some funny ones remain
Quote
Belgium surely didn't get some magical firepower bonus when the Wehrmacht came a-knocking. They got Xeelee-stomped. And the "explanation" for the FDM ... is absolutely laughable. Space doesn't work this way.
Quote
Ok, this could work. Force Disparity's kinda "gamey" but there's no good way around it I suppose. A larger force does provide a target rich environment. Ship disengagement is probably the best part of this.Why do you accept this?!! Why not use your imagination D:
It is saddening to see on the PI forums just how many people get flak for bringing up the arbitrariness of a lot of these mechanics and reasonings >_>
Post by: Mephansteras on November 30, 2017, 12:32:43 pm
Eh. We'll see how it shakes out after people have a chance to play with it a bit. Be nice if Paradox played the hell out of there patches before releasing stuff like this, though.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 30, 2017, 12:47:42 pm
None of them seem like they have anything to do with doomstacks.
Post by: Cruxador on November 30, 2017, 01:17:59 pm
That's complete nonsense. They should've [made a better game]The story of Stellaris.
Post by: Trekkin on November 30, 2017, 01:47:35 pm
Force disengagement is conceptually reasonable, though, and the other bit, while nonsensical taken on its own, is really just a kludge for their imperfect math. Would it be better to create a logical and organic system where smaller armies still have the potential to inflict non-trivial losses on bigger fleets? Yeah. Do you really trust Paradox to do that successfully though?
Conceptually, perhaps, but this execution is going to look very silly when ships just stop doing anything and hang around being invincible. Why not have the fleet as a whole disengage after a certain percentage of losses, if they don't want individual ships to disengage? That way there could still be some decisive, fleet-ending battles, too.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 30, 2017, 03:01:14 pm
Conceptually, perhaps, but this execution is going to look very silly when ships just stop doing anything and hang around being invincible. Why not have the fleet as a whole disengage after a certain percentage of losses, if they don't want individual ships to disengage? That way there could still be some decisive, fleet-ending battles, too.
I don't see why it'd look silly. Disengaged ships are pretty much hitting emergency FTL early, right? The only reason they don't separate and move off on their own is because of how tedious and micromanage-y that'd be. Also they obviously want individual ships to disengage if they're implementing this.
Viable hit and run fleet actions, so a small fleet is more capable of attacking and retreating quickly with little damage sustained in retreat.
So... Have Emergency FTL damage scale on fleet size, so that smaller ones rarely take damage while larger fleets take tons more? Maybe have delay in returning adjust on fleet size too, so bigger ones take longer to return? And then have Emergency FTL delay/countdown/whatever scale based on comparative fleetsizes/awareness/whatever? So a small fleet fighting a large fleet can bugger out quickly and take little damage, but a large fleet fighting a smaller one cannot. Then you can have small fleets running around, destroying enemy stations, blockading enemy planets and what not, but are countered by enemy fortresses and defence installations. Doomstacks can't destroy the smaller fleets, only drive them back, but can destroy the fortresses and let your raiders wreck havoc on enemy territory.
Does that actually sound fun and interesting or am I just talking out of my ass here?
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 30, 2017, 03:23:49 pm
It would make absolutely, 100% no sense in space. But they could do it I guess.
Post by: Trekkin on November 30, 2017, 03:30:19 pm
Conceptually, perhaps, but this execution is going to look very silly when ships just stop doing anything and hang around being invincible. Why not have the fleet as a whole disengage after a certain percentage of losses, if they don't want individual ships to disengage? That way there could still be some decisive, fleet-ending battles, too.
I don't see why it'd look silly. Disengaged ships are pretty much hitting emergency FTL early, right? The only reason they don't separate and move off on their own is because of how tedious and micromanage-y that'd be. Also they obviously want individual ships to disengage if they're implementing this.
I mean actually disengage (i.e. retreat), not just engage some kind of magic time out that everyone apparently accepts. They don't want individual ships to move off on their own because, yes, it's tedious and micromanagey. I just think it'd look more normal if the entire fleet actually retreated once casualties or damage passed some threshold, rather than the fleet retreating when 100% of the fleet passed an individual threshold and just sat around until the fight was resolved one way or another.
It just seems ridiculous that a ship can escape death by sitting quietly in the middle of the battlefield until everyone else wants to go home too.
Post by: Baffler on November 30, 2017, 03:45:12 pm
Quote
Larger weapons have had their damage scaling changed so they are more DPS-effective than smaller ones (a medium turret does 2.5x the damage of a small turret for 2x the power cost), but at the cost of low tracking and thus inability to deal with evasive ships.
Quote
All empires start with all basic weapons in Cherryh.
Both good changes, though in context I'm wary of how the first will look in practice.
Post by: Sirus on November 30, 2017, 03:53:02 pm
Ships disengage individually, warping out when damage exceeds a certain threshold or low morale overcomes the ability of the leading admiral(s) to keep them in the fight.
Those ships are "lost in the warp" but are kept track of.
Only after combat ends one way or the other can the escaped ships re-emerge at the nearest safe port, and they are all bunched together in a single new fleet. This way, there's no weird invincibility and there is also less micro-management than having to suddenly organize a dozen new single-ship fleets together.
Post by: Culise on November 30, 2017, 03:54:40 pm
I'm puzzled; are you just upset over the aesthetics of it, then? The idea of disengagement is that the individual ship isn't just sitting quietly in the middle of the battlefield; it's gone and retreated. It's just being counted as part of the fleet that's still in combat organizationally precisely to reduce micromanagement and tedium in having to rope dozens of individual ships back together after each battle.Conceptually, perhaps, but this execution is going to look very silly when ships just stop doing anything and hang around being invincible. Why not have the fleet as a whole disengage after a certain percentage of losses, if they don't want individual ships to disengage? That way there could still be some decisive, fleet-ending battles, too.
I don't see why it'd look silly. Disengaged ships are pretty much hitting emergency FTL early, right? The only reason they don't separate and move off on their own is because of how tedious and micromanage-y that'd be. Also they obviously want individual ships to disengage if they're implementing this.
I mean actually disengage (i.e. retreat), not just engage some kind of magic time out that everyone apparently accepts. They don't want individual ships to move off on their own because, yes, it's tedious and micromanagey. I just think it'd look more normal if the entire fleet actually retreated once casualties or damage passed some threshold, rather than the fleet retreating when 100% of the fleet passed an individual threshold and just sat around until the fight was resolved one way or another.
It just seems ridiculous that a ship can escape death by sitting quietly in the middle of the battlefield until everyone else wants to go home too.
Post by: Trekkin on November 30, 2017, 04:21:12 pm
What I don't get is why the decision to disengage should be made on a ship-by-ship rather than fleet-by-fleet basis, since the former means you need to put the disengaged ships somewhere until the fleet itself decides to leave and there's no clear way to do that. If you "disengage" them to sit still, players will wonder why their ships aren't fighting; if you remove them to hyperspace or similar, the player will wonder where their not-destroyed ships went.
By contrast, if ships keep fighting to death and the fleet as a whole decides when to leave based on fleet-wide damage (which we can already see), the same casualty-limiting and fleet-integrity-preserving mechanic is maintained but the graphics are less confusing. Ships are either visibly fighting or visibly destroyed, and the thing you'd click on in confusion to see why the fleet is running away has the screen space to clearly say it's retreating because of such-and-such conditional.
Post by: Culise on November 30, 2017, 04:46:43 pm
Plus, I'm not so sure that the ships still appear when they've disengaged. That single lone screenshot we have shows two ships which I assume (without any proof, but I think it's reasonable) are the two ships listed in the status screen, but one of them seems to be flaring up. Depending on *when* they took that screenshot, it might be that disengagement is communicating visually at on the map by ships jumping out using the same method as Emergency FTL, and they simply took the screenshot at the moment this was happening because it was visually distinctive rather than simply taking a shot of one lone ship. Plus, both of the ships are still taking fire when we know from the DD that disengaged ships aren't targeted for fire in the first place, which suggests someone either screwed up big writing the DD (known to occur before) or they intentionally timed that screenshot pretty much right when the ship flipped to "engaged" to "disengaged".
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on November 30, 2017, 04:47:48 pm
The way I'd do it:
Ships disengage individually, warping out when damage exceeds a certain threshold or low morale overcomes the ability of the leading admiral(s) to keep them in the fight.
Those ships are "lost in the warp" but are kept track of.
Only after combat ends one way or the other can the escaped ships re-emerge at the nearest safe port, and they are all bunched together in a single new fleet. This way, there's no weird invincibility and there is also less micro-management than having to suddenly organize a dozen new single-ship fleets together.
Except with the new fleet cap system, you can end up with a massive fleet of wounded ships and a ton of smaller fleets at varying levels of capacity. Unless you use only a single type of ship, you now have to go through all fleets individually and shuffle ships around as needed. Hardly the most ideal implementation. Mind you, if the fleet cap wasn't going to exist then I'd probably agree with this. It works fine with doomstacks since the wounded ships can simply repair up and rejoin the main fleet. But when you have battlegroups composed out of many different fleets then it's not as ideal because of how much micromanagement is required.
Post by: Trekkin on November 30, 2017, 05:04:59 pm
Mmm, the problem with a fleet-wide withdrawal is that the entire stated purpose of this feature is to preserve individual ships as well. Repairs take less time than construction, so a key part of the present situation of decisive battle is the annihilation of the enemy fleet which forces them to rebuild losses from the keel up. If you simply pool fleet-wide HP and retreat when it drops below half, that damage tends to be focused on a few ships. The retreat thus means that half the fleet escapes unscathed and half the fleet is annihilated, which doesn't fulfill the design goal; moreover, it can already be done manually in any battle that takes around a month as in the late game. By forcing individual ships to flee, you leave more individual ships intact and spread that 50% damage across more of the fleet. This preserves individual ships as well as the fleet as a whole and maintains the fleet as a force in being, making snowballing off of an early victory a bit more difficult unless you can catch the enemy fleet again in the repair docks.
Plus, I'm not so sure that the ships still appear when they've disengaged. That single lone screenshot we have shows two ships which I assume (without any proof, but I think it's reasonable) are the two ships listed in the status screen, but one of them seems to be flaring up. Depending on *when* they took that screenshot, it might be that disengagement is communicating visually at on the map by ships jumping out using the same method as Emergency FTL, and they simply took the screenshot at the moment this was happening because it was visually distinctive rather than simply taking a shot of one lone ship. Plus, both of the ships are still taking fire when we know from the DD that disengaged ships aren't targeted for fire in the first place, which suggests someone either screwed up big writing the DD (known to occur before) or they intentionally timed that screenshot pretty much right when the ship flipped to "engaged" to "disengaged".
That's true; it is kind of a clunky patch for how damage is distributed, but actually fixing that would mean implementing a better combat AI and that's almost certainly never going to happen.
Then again, you could always have two withdrawal conditions, one for total damage and one for casualties, but I suspect the casualty one would always be the one to trip.
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 30, 2017, 05:26:29 pm
So... Have Emergency FTL damage scale on fleet size, so that smaller ones rarely take damage while larger fleets take tons more? Maybe have delay in returning adjust on fleet size too, so bigger ones take longer to return? And then have Emergency FTL delay/countdown/whatever scale based on comparative fleetsizes/awareness/whatever? So a small fleet fighting a large fleet can bugger out quickly and take little damage, but a large fleet fighting a smaller one cannot. Then you can have small fleets running around, destroying enemy stations, blockading enemy planets and what not, but are countered by enemy fortresses and defence installations. Doomstacks can't destroy the smaller fleets, only drive them back, but can destroy the fortresses and let your raiders wreck havoc on enemy territory.That sounds fun and interesting, but I'd tie it into the force disengagement thing here. That way a smaller player with ships which have better warp drives could send out 5 smaller fleets to attack and destroy the enemy's ship-building stations, and once they're targeted by the enemy's superior fleet they automatically do their best to minimize ship casualties. Instead of having the ship disengagement policy be an Empire-wide thing, have it be a fleet specific setting similar to how EU4 allows fleets to toggle between hunting enemies, intercepting enemies or going to safe ports at war. Only in this case have fleets whose settings are fight to the death, for your main battle fleets which seek decisive battles, and the more sneaky breeki settings where you want your ships to retreat when faced with a superior foe. This would achieve the objective of PI's people to balance out the David vs Goliath scenario organically, allowing the David to win by playing smart and cutting Goliath's jugular. Giving David a +100% strength bonus against Goliath just because he's smaller does not make sense. I just can't get over how they managed to rationalize military doctrines this janky... Oh yes, the larger fleet is not as maneuverable as the smaller one in the endless expanse of the void. It should be simple enough: You get greedy for economic tech, you run the risk of losing to a more powerful foe. You overspend on military, you fall behind in economic tech. Now it's you get greedy for economic tech and anyone else is a fool? y para y
Does that actually sound fun and interesting or am I just talking out of my ass here?
Force disengagement is conceptually reasonable, though, and the other bit, while nonsensical taken on its own, is really just a kludge for their imperfect math. Would it be better to create a logical and organic system where smaller armies still have the potential to inflict non-trivial losses on bigger fleets? Yeah. Do you really trust Paradox to do that successfully though?That and an overhaul of planets to be more than forts. Have each tile of a planet be something that has to be taken, so the capturing of a planet capital or planetary shield would do more for winning the planet than capturing a tile full of a whole lot of nothing. Have planets be able to deploy weapons from the planet at the cost of resources against enemy fleets. And of course, allow small fleets to strike the enemy and disengage without the nonsense of losing 25% of their HP. It's like they're fixing a problem they created on purpose, making it so fleets can't viably retreat and then fixing the problem with artificial buffs :/
brutalThat's complete nonsense. They should've [made a better game]The story of Stellaris.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on November 30, 2017, 07:24:21 pm
...in the endless expanse of the void.
This is a really bad counterpoint, in my opinion. Space may be endless, but the area a battle is waged within is not. Seriously, think about the battles in Stellaris, you have tons of ships snaking around each other in a fairly confined area, and in those situations, the larger fleet has to worry more about losing their own ships to friendly-fire compared to the smaller fleet. That's probably what is being simulated with the bonus.
I have to wonder where people seem to be getting the impression that the bonus means that the smaller fleets will be the ones winning the battles. Far as I can tell, the bonus is going to be scaled depending upon comparative fleet sizes. And taking the example they gave, the fleet that has 50% the strength of the other will be getting only a bonus of half their own strength (not the enemy's strength), meaning they are acting closer to a 75% rather than the original 50%. That's still quite a bit weaker than the enemy fleet, so the smaller would still be likely to lose. It's just now they'd be inflicting some casualties upon the greater force rather than nothing/basically nothing.
Edit: Oh, forgot to mention, got a discord set up for this and other paradox games that can be used to organize multiplayer games/in-game voice chat. (https://discord.gg/5fjtGx5)
Post by: Trekkin on November 30, 2017, 07:42:59 pm
...in the endless expanse of the void.
This is a really bad counterpoint, in my opinion. Space may be endless, but the area a battle is waged within is not. Seriously, think about the battles in Stellaris, you have tons of ships snaking around each other in a fairly confined area, and in those situations, the larger fleet has to worry more about losing their own ships to friendly-fire compared to the smaller fleet. That's probably what is being simulated with the bonus.
Except that everything in Stellaris is wildly not to scale, either in distance or in size, so what we see of the battles is meaningless.
Post by: umiman on November 30, 2017, 07:43:44 pm
For example, they might be able to simulate smaller forces being able to have an advantage through strategy, terrain, tactics, genius, or deus ex machina. Technological advantages, godly intervention, godzilla, so on and so forth.
Stellaris decides that in the face of all these options, the million things it could have done to try and help a smaller force achieve victory despite the odds. Something it has done successfully in its own games before such as in CK2 where a good general, troop selection, and proper terrain can overcome huge numbers.
Paradox decided,
LOL THEY GET BONUS TO FIRE RATE BASED ON ENEMY FLEET SIZE. BECAUSE I DUNNO THEIR TROOPS ARE MORE SCARED OR SOMETHING SO THEY JUST SHOOT FASTER LMAO.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Post by: Trekkin on November 30, 2017, 07:57:27 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 30, 2017, 08:24:57 pm
This is a really bad counterpoint, in my opinion. Space may be endless, but the area a battle is waged within is not. Seriously, think about the battles in Stellaris, you have tons of ships snaking around each other in a fairly confined area, and in those situations, the larger fleet has to worry more about losing their own ships to friendly-fire compared to the smaller fleet. That's probably what is being simulated with the bonus.Thinking about the battles in Stellaris simply adds to greater disappointment. Space is endless and the area a Stellaris battle is waged in is this clusterfuck of corvettes simply because that's how the game is designed, not because it must by this concentrated mess. That the logic has to be fit to Stellaris and Stellaris not fit to logic illustrates my point; it is entirely artificial that this must be the only way because it is how the developers want it to be. Considering how even the densest conglomeration of fighters, corvettes and prethoryn do not at all have a single semblance of collision or friendly fire, it seems odd to justify this arbitrary measure by these grounds. For example, a bunch of swarmvettes assaulting a numerically inferior group of battleships would see the battleships gaining the fire rate bonus, despite the battleships in such a scenario being at the greater risk of shooting each other, with the swarmvettes attacking in between all the battleships. Furthermore if we ran on the assumption that the vast expanse of space could not be used, because Stellaris only runs on 2 dimensions and the scale is terribly small, why then is it that it is not the fleet who has better admirals, better training and better computers which prevents friendly fire, but simply the one which has fewer ships? Is the largest, most experienced, best train and best equipped Navy unable to stop itself from shooting itself to such an extent that it drastically alters the course of battle? Why do the ships even bother with formations if they are apparently so inept?
Could you imagine arguing that a game simulating ocean battles on Earth should have superior navies sink their own ships because the space of the ocean battle was small and experience, discipline, formation and navigation would count for nothing? That one could expect to see the Royal Navy defeated if it made the mistake of building more ships? If such men could avoid destroying their own ships in closer enemy engagements and much less space than the literal endless void, why is it that no matter how militiaristic and experience a space navy is, they cannot avoid incurring such penalties against smaller foes?
It is simply because it is an arbitrary measure meant to punish the building of large armadas in space.
I have to wonder where people seem to be getting the impression that the bonus means that the smaller fleets will be the ones winning the battles. Far as I can tell, the bonus is going to be scaled depending upon comparative fleet sizes. And taking the example they gave, the fleet that has 50% the strength of the other will be getting only a bonus of half their own strength (not the enemy's strength), meaning they are acting closer to a 75% rather than the original 50%. That's still quite a bit weaker than the enemy fleet, so the smaller would still be likely to lose. It's just now they'd be inflicting some casualties upon the greater force rather than nothing/basically nothing.Why is an inferior force increasing its fighting capabilities the weaker its strategic position is.
There is no logic behind the weaker force fighting the far larger force in a conventional battle and inflicting such disproportionate casualties, the chance of them winning should not even be "likely to lose," it should be "almost certainly going to lose." I can't think of any strategy game that rewarded you for fighting on your opponent's strengths in this manner. For a grand strategy game it's even more puzzling, because the game is not about the fine managing of units, it's about amassing the resources and making the decisions which make the chances of victory certain before you've even declared war.
Right now militarily weaker states can use federations & defensive pacts to stall greater powers until such time as their economic and technological might overpowers them. But they possess no other means of fighting asymmetrical warfare short of funding a rival's enemies. This is a major weakness of the game, and I think the fact that the developers removed the ability to transfer planets because players were making locust pops is evidence enough that the devs are not only disinterested in adding asymmetrical avenues for undermining rivals, but is actively opposed to it for whatever reasons they keep to themselves. Thus in order to "solve" the problem that a militarily overwhelming foe annihilates its opponents in conventional battles, these measures have been introduced.
Thus I can play a pacifist nation that abhors violence and does not train its admirals or fleet, my tradition points spent on harmony, prosperity and discovery. My technology and economy is superior to my militiarist neighbour who spends much more on defence and devotes more of their planet to industry than me. If they do not challenge me militarily, I will assuredly become superior to them with the passing of time, as my technological and economic advantage increases exponentially. They double their fleet to twice the size of mine, putting an immense strain further upon their state, planning to invade me and thus reduce my advantage to their gain.
They declare war.
They have twice the ships I do, their admirals are more skilled, their people are geared towards war in tradition, having completed the supremacy traditions and naval exercise training. This is not their first war either, so they possess many veterans. My admirals have never seen battle before, my people hate the very idea of violence, their one advantage is they will fight harder to defend their homelands. I do no clever strategy, no devious trick. I do not conceal my ships in a great galactic ambush, I do not call in allies, I do not deploy devious weapons or politics, subversion or fast-raids. I attack this overwhelmingly superior foe head on in a conventional battle. Every one of my ships fights with superior skill and strategy, exacting a terrible toll upon the enemy. My species have no idea what they're doing but for reasons unknown they are superior to even the most elite enemy veterans. We are evenly matched, but I am far more capable of replacing my losses, with better industry, with more and more technologically advanced ships. I will win this war despite having made no preparations for it.
It breaks the game's verisimilitude for me. I do not see a mechanic which is logical or in accordance with any reality, I just see a mechanic the devs put in because they don't like large fleets causing decisive battles in space and couldn't think of anything better.
Consider that a fanatic militiarist government is one that is built around war first and foremost, whose peoples prepare for war in peace and look forward to it as an inevitable tradition of their species that must be continued. They get +20% to fire rate to represent their skill and experience at war. Consider that the fanatic purifier government represents the utmost extreme of a martial society, a peoples whose purpose in life is foremost war and extermination of all other life. Their dedication to this extreme militiarism renders them incapable of forming any diplomatic ties, but each of their ships gets +53% to fire rate.
An enemy whose peoples are not at all trained at war but are outnumbered 2 to 1 will find their ships fighting just as well as the enemy which spends entire generations of lives practicing at nothing but war. Not because they made any strategic decision, or had superior leadership, or the proper preparations. They are outnumbered therefore they fight as good as the best-trained elite navies in the galaxy.
Now imagine a fanatic purifier government is being invaded by a federation which has banded together to stop their extermination wars. Unfortunately they overwhelmingly outnumber the fanatical purifiers, so now if they fight a conventional battle their enemy will have a +103% fire rate. Thus to band together and have one fleet lead all allied fleets would be to make an incredibly poor life choice, despite all logic pointing to the contrary.
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 30, 2017, 08:43:22 pm
Post by: Greiger on November 30, 2017, 08:49:43 pm
You don't need a new fleet for that, just the same as you can have ships that are set to bombard from range and ships that swarm in the same fleet. When the ships hit 50% and decide to bug out they simply change their AI engage distance to some reasonably high number, and the ship will just turn around and attempt to physically get away, it can still get shot while backing off, and depending on the range of your enemy's weapons, may not be able to escape. It's as simple as just changing the ship's AI mid combat which I think mods can already do. If all ships remaining in combat are all in disengage AI it simply triggers emergency warp for you. Do I know paradox is going to do it that way? No. But it seems reasonable, and seemingly not beyond even current modding capability.
---
Upping fire speed against larger groups, seems a little silly. Maybe as a admiral trait it could work with the explanation they gave, but it does not make sense baseline, sure there may be more targets to shoot at, but there would be more targets in a bigger more even engagement as well, yet there is no benefit there. An argument could be made for friendly fire, but then why is there no fire rate increase for the start of the battle when everybody is still in formation and firing anywhere vaguely straight ahead is going to hit an enemy? The fire rate would make for 1 or 2 extra hits, that are likely just going to hit shields, or be cleared with autorepair traits or tech, which seems entirely too easy to get.
You'd better simulate this with a chance of a missed shot hitting another member of large enemy fleets than a fire rate increase. Same almost nonexistent handicap advantage, better explanation. Or hell just make all missed shots when in combat have a chance of hitting any ship within a cone around the the target. Larger fleets will still be disadvantaged, since they have more ships and a better chance of being in that cone, and it gives a point to swarm AI because you can make fast evasive ships charge the enemy formation in hopes of making them hit eachother as they try to hit the evasive little fleas.
Post by: umiman on November 30, 2017, 08:51:43 pm
The bonus isn't going to make an interior force WIN, it's just there to make the battle slightly less one-sided. His example was of an 80k force attacking a 10k force. Normally this would result in a wipe off the 10k force with a loss of maybe 500 power on the 80k force. With the bonus it might turn out as still a work of the 10k force but a loss of like 2000 power to the 80k force, allowing a smaller interior force to at least inflict some damage as they die to overwhelming numbers.Everyone here understands the intention. The problem is their solution makes no goddamn sense. Why do these ships magically have the ability to shoot faster when outnumbered? If these races were capable of such a feat, why do they not just build all their ships with the maximum rate of fire? It's completely dumb and reeks of "we have no idea what we're doing". Which is not surprising, considering the game.
Imagine like, EU4 right. Napoleon vs Wellington at the battle of Dagobah.
Napoleon is outnumbered almost 2 to 1. He doesn't stand a chance.
Wellington and his comrades are in a position of total superiority. There is no way this dastardly Corsican is getting away this time. 118,000 rifles and cannons against some paltry 73,000. How can they win?
Napoleon is happy though, because suddenly his phasers are now turbocannons, and his troops jump into the enemy lines rambo style with their m60s, obliterating the coalition forces. Pffft, they dared to outnumber him. Little did they know Jesus's 4th law of physics. "If Thouest Art Outnumbered Twoeth To Oneth, Thoueth Shall Geteth Doubleth Firepowereth."
------
I'm not too sure why I'm getting so worked up over this. I wrote this game off so long ago and basically just treat it like a curio these days. Meh, let them do whatever.
Post by: Trekkin on November 30, 2017, 09:03:16 pm
I'm not too sure why I'm getting so worked up over this. I wrote this game off so long ago and basically just treat it like a curio these days. Meh, let them do whatever.
Maybe because they just keep finding new ways to be ridiculous?
Just wait. When this fails to eliminate doomstacks, they'll implement a friendly fire mechanic with damage scaling by fleet size. Then they'll decide people are using battleships too much and quintuple their cost. Then people won't be using battleships enough, so corvettes will get a random chance per warp jump of getting lost forever. Except in sectors. For some reason.
They want so badly to respond to the meta that they've forgotten to step back and actually advance a coherent idea of how they want their game to work, so they just vacillate from one extreme to another in an attempt to please whoever was mad last.
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 30, 2017, 09:32:05 pm
The bonus isn't going to make an interior force WIN, it's just there to make the battle slightly less one-sided. His example was of an 80k force attacking a 10k force. Normally this would result in a wipe off the 10k force with a loss of maybe 500 power on the 80k force. With the bonus it might turn out as still a work of the 10k force but a loss of like 2000 power to the 80k force, allowing a smaller interior force to at least inflict some damage as they die to overwhelming numbers.How are you getting the impression that I believe or even care about who wins the battles? You yourself have identified the issue. An inferior force fighting an overwhelmingly superior foe does not inflict significant casualties upon it. This was not a problem that needed fixing. It is the very principle which I have been attacking. As an aside, the way fleet power is calculated weighting effective health * DPS will simply increase the problems the game already faces regarding the sheer counter-productiveness of large ships. Hence why 50k of corvettes fighting 100k of battleships is already superior, but will now be firing all of their weapons 50% faster despite being more durable, accurate and having more DPS.
That's bad enough but no, this is just inherently bad regardless of the errors in fleet force power calculations. Let us assume that 800 corvette strong force and 100 corvette strong force have identical technology, leaders, traditions, ship design and composition. For every 1 corvette the inferior force has, 8 other ships are firing at it. For every 300 shots its side fires, it receives 2400 shots in return. Because the first side was capable of bringing overwhelming force, they were more quickly able to subdue the enemy and so minimize their casualties. They are more capable of reducing the time the enemy spends firing guns at their friends. The second side should never have engaged this far larger foe in a conventional battle.
Now let's say the identical matchup happens again, but it's 700 corvettes fighting 800 corvettes in the standard game. For every 2100 shots the first side give, the enemy sends 2400. It is clear the first side will lose. They should have picked a more favourable battle.
Now let's say the identical matchup happens, but it's now 700 corvettes advancing upon 800 corvettes, but the 700 is split into two armies. One is made up of 400 corvettes, the other is made up of 300 corvettes. The larger force attacks the 400 corvettes, seizing the opportunity presented! Oh wait nope, they committed a great error by attacking the divided enemy. The outnumbered enemy are now super 1337 hax0r who fire good because they are outnumbered. The smaller force is now firing 1800 shots for the enemy's 2400, despite being outnumbered 2 to 1. If the 300 arrive and receive no outnumbered bonus they'll be adding 900 shots per whatever the enemy has left, and 1350 if they're outnumbered by twice as many. Thus the outnumbered fleet is now delivering anywhere between 2700-3150 shots for the enemy's 2400 despite having done anything to warrant such superior damage output.
It does not make any common sense why putting your navy in graver danger makes each individual ship fight as hard as the fanatical purifiers. And again, to bring up the topic of fanatical purifiers, 1 on 1 their +53% fire rate makes them superior to any equal. Their weakness is that they can't make allies, but their enemies can. Under such a system however, outnumbering fanatical purifiers will see each of their ships firing more than twice as fast as any of your ships.
Post by: Rolan7 on November 30, 2017, 09:40:18 pm
Realism-wise I'm suspending my disbelief. The ships already engage in sea-formations, and the smallest are the size of Pluto.
It's not like Space Napoleon is going to win the battle with half as much fleet power... Well, I hope :P
Post by: Trekkin on November 30, 2017, 10:34:12 pm
Post by: Culise on November 30, 2017, 11:26:53 pm
I think this can be cool as long as the advantage is slight. 800 vs 700 should still usually go to the 800, just not as inexpensively. So mid-war production is more relevant, instead of just the size of your standing doomstack. And there's a mechanical reason to split your forces (which is particularly necessary with the Hyperlane-only change, which makes doomstacks even more efficient).Indeed. Regarding this half of the dev diary, I think it'll be best to wait and actually see how it balances out. It does feel to me a bit like a bit of a kludge where they're taking a wrench to a nail, but I'm not about to panic completely. The sole datum we have on it right now also does not take internal balancing into account yet, which will be continuing for the next couple months, and it only tells us that maybe, if you're outnumbered by a factor of 100, you might be able to be twice as effective as you would ordinarily be. To wit, the screenshot says that a single ship with 0.1k fleet power against a 13.9k fleet power gets a bonus of 97% from fleet disparity combat bonus, making it an effective 0.2k fleet against a 13.9k fleet.
Realism-wise I'm suspending my disbelief. The ships already engage in sea-formations, and the smallest are the size of Pluto.
It's not like Space Napoleon is going to win the battle with half as much fleet power... Well, I hope :P
Though it does remind me of the old quote I can't remember the source of: "Surrounded? We've got 'em right where we want 'em!"
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on November 30, 2017, 11:46:57 pm
Now let's say the identical matchup happens again, but it's 700 corvettes fighting 800 corvettes in the standard game. For every 2100 shots the first side give, the enemy sends 2400. It is clear the first side will lose. They should have picked a more favourable battle.
Now let's say the identical matchup happens, but it's now 700 corvettes advancing upon 800 corvettes, but the 700 is split into two armies. One is made up of 400 corvettes, the other is made up of 300 corvettes. The larger force attacks the 400 corvettes, seizing the opportunity presented! Oh wait nope, they committed a great error by attacking the divided enemy. The outnumbered enemy are now super 1337 hax0r who fire good because they are outnumbered. The smaller force is now firing 1800 shots for the enemy's 2400, despite being outnumbered 2 to 1. If the 300 arrive and receive no outnumbered bonus they'll be adding 900 shots per whatever the enemy has left, and 1350 if they're outnumbered by twice as many. Thus the outnumbered fleet is now delivering anywhere between 2700-3150 shots for the enemy's 2400 despite having done anything to warrant such superior damage output.
Why would the original keep the outnumbered bonus as it was before reinforcements arrived and not update to one more befitting the new situation?
Post by: Karnewarrior on December 01, 2017, 12:16:45 am
Because otherwise how would you cheese the system by engaging with one corvette and then immediately reinforcing with a 103k fleetpower doomstack to make them all fire at doublespeed?Now let's say the identical matchup happens again, but it's 700 corvettes fighting 800 corvettes in the standard game. For every 2100 shots the first side give, the enemy sends 2400. It is clear the first side will lose. They should have picked a more favourable battle.
Now let's say the identical matchup happens, but it's now 700 corvettes advancing upon 800 corvettes, but the 700 is split into two armies. One is made up of 400 corvettes, the other is made up of 300 corvettes. The larger force attacks the 400 corvettes, seizing the opportunity presented! Oh wait nope, they committed a great error by attacking the divided enemy. The outnumbered enemy are now super 1337 hax0r who fire good because they are outnumbered. The smaller force is now firing 1800 shots for the enemy's 2400, despite being outnumbered 2 to 1. If the 300 arrive and receive no outnumbered bonus they'll be adding 900 shots per whatever the enemy has left, and 1350 if they're outnumbered by twice as many. Thus the outnumbered fleet is now delivering anywhere between 2700-3150 shots for the enemy's 2400 despite having done anything to warrant such superior damage output.
Why would the original keep the outnumbered bonus as it was before reinforcements arrived and not update to one more befitting the new situation?
Post by: Taricus on December 01, 2017, 01:04:19 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 01, 2017, 08:31:47 am
Why would the original keep the outnumbered bonus as it was before reinforcements arrived and not update to one more befitting the new situation?It won't, the reinforcements will arrive either as reinforcements + original remnants < 55% enemy fleet size, or else as the enemy is so weakened that the reinforcements alone are enough to finish the enemy off
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 01, 2017, 08:42:40 am
1. it sounds extremely dumb as a concept
2. it is extremely dumb as a mechanic
3. we don't need to resort to any kind of arguments about realism or anything to know #1 & 2
4. it will not end up mattering much because large empires are still going to crush small empires
the other changes are a mixed bag.
Fleets hard capped- This doesn't do anything but enforce more clicking. Fleets will still fight together. You can still move fleets together. They will even all travel through hyperlanes together, arriving at the same time. The only thing this does is slightly limit admiral bonuses by requiring additional admirals (and thus, marginally smaller bonuses for some of your ships.)
Ship disengagement- sounds fine, but for any real effect in wars it's going to depend on that war exhaustion mechanic they described weeks ago. withholding judgment on it since it's really part of an entirely new system. but generally i don't think it's going to matter much. as Space Comrade Churchhill said, wars are not won through disengagements. If you can't win battles, you're not going to win the war anyway.
No more reactor aux- Sounds great! It was so dumb to fiddle around with different slots trying to get the power balance right. Glad they got rid of that. Wait, they didn't: "To add a little bit of flexibility into this system, we have created a new line of utilities called Reactor Boosters that go in the Aux slot and provide some extra power for the ship, allowing smaller power deficiencies to be addressed without needing to downgrade components." Yep, still going to be futzing around with individual components trying to get the power equation to balance.
Weapons/Armor/Missiles - sounds fine, too vague to know how it'll shake out in the future and mostly doesn't matter anyway. There will end up being an optimal design for what the AI does, an optimal design for the crises and each leviathan, and various designs for MP.
Post by: QuakeIV on December 01, 2017, 02:26:39 pm
What they did instead is more or less equivalent to that, so I think its at least reasonable.
That coupled with the ability for ships to disengage (assuming the disengage chance is extremely high) should make splitting up into smaller fleets quite practical. Also, don't quote the old, fat, drunk, winston churchill on military tactics, he was a politician first and military commander second. I win battles all the time by disengaging when the enemy gets in range and starts dealing damage, then coming back later and hitting them again. If ships could individually disengage as they started getting hit, that would make this tactic work even better for me.
I agree that the fleet size cap is retarded though, thats just going to waste everyones time.
Post by: umiman on December 01, 2017, 03:42:59 pm
Also, don't quote the old, fat, drunk, winston churchill on military tactics, he was a politician first and military commander second.Space Comrade Churchill is not the same as Earth Churchill.
One is a glorious beacon of collective imperialism who crushes his enemies with a hammer and flag. The other is a tank that sometimes is a flamethrower and sometimes is a bridge and has a really small
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on December 01, 2017, 07:07:46 pm
Anyway, going to be setting up a game in the discord I linked earlier (repeated here for easier access (https://discord.gg/5fjtGx5)). Going to be setting up a small mod pack as well beforehand, so jump in if you want to contribute to that. Know of a mod that can make the galaxy players only (couple could even be Fallen Empire stand-ins), so we could setup some custom rules for the game.
Post by: Descan on December 01, 2017, 08:17:19 pm
I believe the concern isn't that they've made most of the content free, but that they still charge the same price for the DLC, and are still selling it in the first place.They're using the money to do *all* of the content, though. They're paywalling *some* of it, but in paying for the *some* content that is locked, you've effectively paid for all of it. In the sense that they wouldn't be able to, economically, pay the programmers and designers and workforce necessary to make ALL the content, paid or free.
So the economics as a consumer are a little wonky; It *seems* expensive for what you get out of it, but that's because they've given you for free like 7-10 bucks worth of content. By paying for the 13 dollar expansion, you're paying both for the 3-6 dollars worth of content that's paywalled, PLUS retroactively paying for (or better described as supporting) the 7-10 dollars worth you already have.
And also supporting them doing similarly in the future.
It might be more clear if they included Free and Paid features that went into a DLC/patch combo on the store page, instead of just on the changelog, so down the line you can see "Oh, they used half this thirteen to make this stuff I can already use and play with, and the other half is locked behind the DLC; that's why it costs more than it seems it should for what it directly unlocks by buying it."
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on December 02, 2017, 02:58:34 am
Post by: umiman on December 02, 2017, 03:32:12 am
Speaking of that Stellaris multiplayer, wasn't started tonight, but we did create a pack of mods to use here (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1218365396), and Quake set up a 'when is good?' thing here (http://whenisgood.net/cx92zks/) for people to input when they are available (results here (http://whenisgood.net/cx92zks/results/yefhnyb).) Put up when you are good if you want to join the game if you are wanting to.That's a lot of mods.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on December 02, 2017, 06:04:57 am
Speaking of that Stellaris multiplayer, wasn't started tonight, but we did create a pack of mods to use here (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1218365396), and Quake set up a 'when is good?' thing here (http://whenisgood.net/cx92zks/) for people to input when they are available (results here (http://whenisgood.net/cx92zks/results/yefhnyb).) Put up when you are good if you want to join the game if you are wanting to.That's a lot of mods.
A hefty chunk of the lot falls under the categories 'cosmetics to be certain the game states match' or 'compatibility patch to make a few play nice', with a not insignificant 'cosmetic compatibility path' due to the downscaled ships. Of those that aren't, there's a few that are quite small (eg. One mod who's only action is to increase the number of pickable traits to 10. Doesn't add any new traits, just increases the limit.).
Post by: Twinwolf on December 02, 2017, 09:50:54 am
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on December 02, 2017, 01:43:54 pm
I'd like to play, but unfortunately those times are almost entirely not-working for me -_-;
Go ahead and put when you are available anyway. You're able to select and deselect people, so it can be useful just to see when matches could potentially take place.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 02, 2017, 05:02:14 pm
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on December 02, 2017, 05:07:16 pm
I'd also be happy to play, but not really with those mods.
Any in particular you have an issue with?
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 02, 2017, 05:12:13 pm
And then what is with all the stargate stuff?
No big deal, just seems like you want to play some other game and are trying to make stellaris into it?
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on December 02, 2017, 05:32:55 pm
Just seems a ramshackle assortment. Some are people's homebrew attempts to fix things that aren't broken.
Bit of a general statement. Can you be more specific?
I've tried the religion mod for example, and it was buggy at the best of times. It forced odd conflicts.
Indeed? I'll remove it til its fixed, then.
And then what is with all the stargate stuff?
I went down the list of which ship type mods had compatibility with New Ship Classes and Downscaled Ships in order to give the most variety. The number of Stargate ones (half notably patches to work with Downscaled Ships) is due to them making a disproportionatly large number.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 02, 2017, 05:34:32 pm
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on December 02, 2017, 05:37:03 pm
I'm not trying to get you to remove anything, just explaining generally why I said what I did. You're free to use whatever mods you wish, sorry if I came across otherwise.
The amount of mods we're using lends itself to a bit of instability in all likelihood, so if one has a high level of instability, then it's probably a good idea to hold off on for now.
Edit: Holy fucking shit. Just axed ~6 mods because they added about 2 gigs to the download. Specifically, the Immersive Galaxy and the Beautiful Universe ones. Holy shit man...
Post by: Ultimuh on December 07, 2017, 03:29:01 pm
My own thoughts after fiddling around with creating new empires:
A bit disappointed by the lack of varying hairstyles, especially with the Dwarven portrait.
Post by: micelus on December 08, 2017, 03:39:29 am
Post by: umiman on December 08, 2017, 03:43:02 am
So I haven't touched Stellaris since launch and with the sale happening, now might be a good time to buy DLC. Question is, is the game considered 'good' at this point? I was never happy with the sector AI.Sector AI works now. I still think it's pretty bare bones though robots are fun.
Post by: micelus on December 08, 2017, 05:26:54 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 08, 2017, 08:18:03 am
So not worth the money if you don't like robots?
Even if you don't really like robots specifically, Synthetic Dawn is much cheaper than Utopia and gives you access to more content - extra fallen empire and crisis, and reworked machine uprisings. It's also nice just having a few computer player machine empires in the galaxy for color, but that's a matter of taste.
Post by: Criptfeind on December 08, 2017, 08:54:32 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 08, 2017, 09:02:13 am
Synthetic dawn might have more content in it in some absolute sense (maybe?), but I'd like to put in a dissenting voice in, if you don't want to play as a robot empire I'm not sure there's really much in there for you. An extra crisis and reworked AI rebellion mechanics are both good, but they're compared to a whole game relatively rare and smallish in scope? The ascension perks from utopia are a large and important part of every game. Although it's true that they'll become worth less soon when the base perks are folded into the game for free with the next big update. Still, building megastructures (which I think won't be free?) (although not without their issues) are something I find quite satisfying to do, and I end up making a lot every game. (and some mods add more and cool megastructures, which is nice) and the ascension paths (also not going to be free I think?) are also a fairly satisfying thing to do at least the first time.
Yeah, it's true that base ascension perks won't be free until the next patch. So I guess if you're interested in ascension perks for the next 2-3 months specifically, it's less important. But repairable megastructures are free now - only buildable ones are locked. So you're not missing out on them completely.
To the extent price is part of the comparison, I think that's still the main argument. Some people buy all of them immediately so it doesn't matter. But if budget is part of it, then Synthetic Dawn at half the price of Utopia seems to be winning the factor.
Post by: Criptfeind on December 08, 2017, 09:22:29 am
Post by: micelus on December 08, 2017, 09:38:56 am
Post by: Criptfeind on December 08, 2017, 10:48:14 am
Since you already own the game yourself, I think you're probably in the best position to make that determination yourself, by actually trying and playing the game, and then thinking, would it be worth 13 bucks to you for every time you complete a tradition you get some big bonus perk, to be able to turn all your guys into psychics or robots? To be able to build a bunch of worlds to spread yourself across to giant resource spheres? I don't know how much 13 bucks is worth to you, but I do know if you don't enjoy the base game Utopia probably won't make you enjoy it more. And probably (unless you really love robots and killing organics) Synthetic dawn won't be worth the ten they are asking for either. If you do enjoy the base game, then they COULD be worth it too you, depending how how much you expect that much money to be worth and how much you'll enjoy doing the things they let you do. For me personally, I think Utopia was worth it because I like ascending and I like building megastructures, but since I don't like playing as robots that much, SD wasn't really worth it to me. But clearly other people have different, even opposite, opinions.
Also as I went back though this thread to look at what I said in the past about this (turns out my opinion wasn't really a valid answer for this particular question, unlucky me I had to actually think for a moment to make a new answer) I saw this question by EnigmaticHat addressed to me that I missed from back when we were talking about leader lifespan which caught my eye now.
Edit: Criptfiend, WTF are you feeding those guys? IME lifespan is *max* lifespan not average. I can be up to the repeatable lifespan tech and still have deaths at 75, sometimes earlier. Are you running the one planet strat and researching a new lifespan tech every 5 years?
What is IME lifespan? I don't know what that stands for, but lifespan in the game is based on a minimum, and there isn't any max (Or maybe there is a max at 8 and 1/3 years past minimum when the death chance reaches 100%? Not sure). The average is according to the wiki 5-6 years above the minimum.... I have no idea if that math is right, it feels like the average is closer to 2-3 above minimum, but idk. I have no idea how you can possibly be at repeatable lifespan tech and still have deaths at 75 unless you have both the short lived trait for that species and they are substance abusers. You start the game with almost that much lifespan, and a single lifespan increasing tech should push the minimum past that.
Spoiler: Here's a look at my leaders in the game I'm talking about (click to show/hide)
Uk-Ma was probably hired around 30 to 40 years old, and he's going to last minimally until 207, on average dying around 210. For something like 175 years of service. He's a bit of a stand out, having two lifespan extension traits (including magic space life tree maybe? I can't recall if I saw that this game or some other game) You can probably knock off 50 years off that for most of the others. 70ish for those that don't get any lifespan traits (although you can see that seven out of the nine on that screen have one). But even so, the minimal service without dying in action or to substance abuse is around 100 years, or living to about 150. I have no idea how one could have half that.
Va-Ra the admiral is probably worth noting as well, as he's only the second admiral I've ever hired and he's still going strong. He personally lead my fleet to take over around 80% of the galaxy, including beating off the crisis and two awakened fallen empires. And he's still not near death. He's certainly the posterboy for how you really don't need to replace organics that often.
Post by: Teneb on December 08, 2017, 11:41:47 am
Post by: Criptfeind on December 08, 2017, 11:50:23 am
If you wanta talk about influence costs for mid game and go back to the original talk of organics vs machine empire: Sure. You'll probably have to replace some. But the hundreds you'll spend on that isn't much next to the thousands of influence you'll get from factions. [shrugs]
Also the minimal age at the start is 72... Vitality Boosters is a tier 2 tech. You sure that when a leader hits 70 you know they are about to die?
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 08, 2017, 02:39:09 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 08, 2017, 02:50:06 pm
And no I did not know that Gravitas.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 08, 2017, 02:52:50 pm
you guys know theres a tooltip on the age that tells you yearly death percentage chance rightYou mean like the one shown in Criptfeind's screenshot? Yeah we know.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 08, 2017, 03:10:15 pm
you guys know theres a tooltip on the age that tells you yearly death percentage chance rightYou mean like the one shown in Criptfeind's screenshot? Yeah we know.
try again, jackass
And no I did not know that Gravitas.
Post by: Criptfeind on December 08, 2017, 03:19:53 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 08, 2017, 04:21:54 pm
My bad. Keep pointing out the obvious for the people who aren't paying attention. :)you guys know theres a tooltip on the age that tells you yearly death percentage chance rightYou mean like the one shown in Criptfeind's screenshot? Yeah we know.
try again, jackassAnd no I did not know that Gravitas.
Post by: Criptfeind on December 08, 2017, 04:56:42 pm
So, I went ahead and found out all the lifespan extension stuff. (Afik)
Races start out with 72 years, you get +10 from Vitality Boosters, +10 from each of the lifespan extension policies (for +20 total), +20 from one of the first things in the harmony tree, and +5 years from each tier of the repeatable life extension technology. The accession paths all have their own lifespan boost, Synths are immortal of course, and the genetic dudes can probably pick up a LOT of lifespan, but it's probably not worthwhile, psi have a fairly common event for +40 lifespan (that's what many of my dudes in the screen shot have). There's also the personal trait that gives 20 years of course.
So, I'm thinking realistically, to get to the end of the tech tree with a low leader lifespan, you could be egalitarians who are on a super conquering spree so your unity tanks and you never bother to pick up harmony or ascend. That'd leave you with a 82 year lifespan, or probably around 40-45ish years of service from your dudes. At least until you hit the repeatable techs. Although that's still not 75 years (afaik it's impossible to get to the repeatable tech with such a low min age, so I'm guessing it was either: Not old age, some negative trait, or some other version of the game) it's still pretty low and you would have to swap out leaders much more often. Of course if you take over the whole galaxy like that the game's probably going to end pretty quickly, so give and take on that front.
Post by: umiman on December 08, 2017, 05:10:10 pm
I get a feeling that every other time I played it was more an expectation to have fun, but never really having any. But when I was playing robots I had moments of jubilation when I started turning organics into matrix batteries. I enjoyed all the custom text and responses that robots have. I enjoyed not having to micro stupid little factions that don't do anything other than be annoying. It was fun just being able to become gigantic with no artificial barriers or bullshit nonsense mechanics holding me back.
In a way the game was made simpler, but it was more fun for me. Because a lot of superfluous things that Stellaris has were cut out and I completely forgot they existed. I didn't have to care about populations, ethics, drift, migration, or even diplomacy. I didn't have to care about the limitations of the game in trying to play a role the game can't handle other than expand and conquer the map... because that's basically what robots want to do anyway.
It makes me wonder if I should play CK2 with some kind of feature cut. Just remove everything and keep the essence. Maybe it'd be way more fun.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 08, 2017, 07:02:43 pm
The more I think about it, the more I realize robots are probably the only time I've had fun in this game.
I get a feeling that every other time I played it was more an expectation to have fun, but never really having any. But when I was playing robots I had moments of jubilation when I started turning organics into matrix batteries. I enjoyed all the custom text and responses that robots have. I enjoyed not having to micro stupid little factions that don't do anything other than be annoying. It was fun just being able to become gigantic with no artificial barriers or bullshit nonsense mechanics holding me back.
In a way the game was made simpler, but it was more fun for me. Because a lot of superfluous things that Stellaris has were cut out and I completely forgot they existed. I didn't have to care about populations, ethics, drift, migration, or even diplomacy. I didn't have to care about the limitations of the game in trying to play a role the game can't handle other than expand and conquer the map... because that's basically what robots want to do anyway.
It makes me wonder if I should play CK2 with some kind of feature cut. Just remove everything and keep the essence. Maybe it'd be way more fun.
offtopic but this is how i feel about Conclave and Reaper's Due. they really went downhill once they ran out of culture/religion expansions to add.
generally i liked synthetic dawn and kind of utopia for that same reason. it's way better to add different approaches to the paradox games (purifiers with no diplomacy / hive minds / even the batshit servitors) than to add stupid complications where none had existed before.
i'm ambivalent about 2.0 for exactly this reason. some of it sounds like it'll actually make the game better. some of it just sounds like bullshit busywork to slow down the player.
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 08, 2017, 10:56:29 pm
Post by: Cruxador on December 09, 2017, 11:56:43 am
Let me rephrase my question: is Stellaris at this point worth playing to such an extent that buying the gameplay DLC is worth it?Nah. Maybe the next patch, since it seems big.
Post by: omada on December 09, 2017, 11:59:02 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on December 09, 2017, 12:57:01 pm
I just came here to say that this game is stealing my time and ruining my life, thanks for listening. Now I will ruin someone else's life
that's the honeymoon phase, it'll brush off fast enough
Post by: HissinhWalnuts on December 10, 2017, 08:07:55 pm
I find it funny how everyone gravitates to the swarms/purifiers/robits because they're the ones that place the least faith in the AI being useful to the player outside of kitchen meat or biobatteriescurrently somewhat new to the game, but I have to say that being unable to perform diplomacy with organics is NOT increasing my survival rates
Post by: Hanzoku on December 11, 2017, 03:31:24 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 11, 2017, 11:04:48 am
Yeah, I find that while I use the *tactics* of conquering all my enemies and converting them into biobatteries, it helps to be able to talk to all the other organics and trade energy for minerals to build even larger deathfleets. I find the 'bonuses' from being a berserker race don't nearly match what you lose.I find it more valuable as long as you can eliminate the enclaves, denying their use to everyone. Then you sit tight and build ringworld after ringworld, swarming the world with your fleets. It's great fun
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on December 30, 2017, 08:19:34 pm
Name: Paradox Discord
Password: disc
Server ID: 90112648141996034
Mod Pack: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1251048333
Discord for voice chat: https://discord.gg/5fjtGx5
Post by: Ultimuh on January 02, 2018, 03:10:20 pm
I don't know what the hell's happened here. Either in the month I spent not playing Stellaris I became a drooling imbecile, or the AI's suddenly getting masses of cheats.
I am constantly being declared war on. Doesn't matter that my tech's the same as theirs, doesn't matter that they're smaller, they routinely hand my arse to me because they SOMEHOW manage to get a fleet double the size of mine without going over their fleet cap (At least I assume they don't given they apparently have an actually functional economy).
Well, exception was the last war I was in. That one was lost because two guys DoWed me, and my allies thought the best thing to do was send their fleet all over the damn place trying to join up (for some reason, rather than send the individual ships to the fleet, they thought the best idea was to send the fleet to the individual ships) so that it was basically me vs. two similarly sized empires. Until the very end, where my fleet got annihilated, THEN they went "HEY GUYS! WE'RE HERE TO HELP!" and got annihilated because, as it turns out, sending in two fleet separately means that both get shredded.
Also, the AI seems to have literally limitless mineral reserves. If I manage to annihilate their fleet (usually by trapping it somewhere next to a space station and defence station) they get another whole fleet within months. It's just plain ludicrous.
And I'm in ironman, so I can't exactly cheat myself into getting a larger fleet or forcing them to accept, or even cheat myself into playing them so I can see what the fuck's going on. There's no way to do so.
Tempted to do a not-ironman game and do the latter just to see how it is they're doing this.
If you are desperate enough, then there's always Cheat Engine.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 02, 2018, 03:11:33 pm
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on January 03, 2018, 02:10:56 am
Also, the game is on sale, at a percentage that buying the base game (not either of the special editions), Leviathans Story Pack, Utopia, and Synthetic Dawn is about $5 above the base price for the game.
Post by: Hanzoku on January 03, 2018, 02:27:00 am
Post by: Cruxador on January 03, 2018, 02:58:46 am
So, there's been a new Dev Diary (Link (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/dev-diary-99-ground-combat-army-rework.1061707/)). Thoughts?I mean, they're not bad changes, but it's a bit like polishing a turd. I was hoping for a much larger overhaul of the ground combat system. The fact that they went less complicated and cut features instead of seeing the features through to their fullest conclusion is disappointing but sadly consistent with the general thrust of Stellaris development.
Also, the game is on sale, at a percentage that buying the base game (not either of the special editions), Leviathans Story Pack, Utopia, and Synthetic Dawn is about $5 above the base price for the game.
Post by: Culise on January 03, 2018, 03:04:11 am
Not bad, overall. I agree with all of the changes, really - attachments were a stupid mechanic anyway and clunky to implement. It gives players an incentive to build more then 20-40 ground units total at any given time, given you might realistically see losses. I'm less enthusiastic about Fortress slots. I wish they got their own row rather then taking up productive space on the planet. I think on any planet smaller then ~15, I wouldn't even bother building a Fortress.I probably won't build them anywhere outside of key frontier choke points where you can place those fancy planetary FTL inhibitors, and that only as a definite maybe. Then again, I already don't build any defense armies unless they're on unrest-heavy worlds and those don't cost tiles. That's how little ground combat matters right now. It's sort of the opposite of the old joke about two Soviet tankers in Paris: two fleet admirals meet over the Contingency homeworld. One says to the other, who won the ground war?
Post by: Criptfeind on January 03, 2018, 07:19:35 am
Post by: Teneb on January 03, 2018, 08:08:45 am
One major oversight I see is that they're removing defensive armies so you need to build fortresses... except you can just station a bunch of offensive armies on the planet for the same effect.Not bad, overall. I agree with all of the changes, really - attachments were a stupid mechanic anyway and clunky to implement. It gives players an incentive to build more then 20-40 ground units total at any given time, given you might realistically see losses. I'm less enthusiastic about Fortress slots. I wish they got their own row rather then taking up productive space on the planet. I think on any planet smaller then ~15, I wouldn't even bother building a Fortress.I probably won't build them anywhere outside of key frontier choke points where you can place those fancy planetary FTL inhibitors, and that only as a definite maybe. Then again, I already don't build any defense armies unless they're on unrest-heavy worlds and those don't cost tiles. That's how little ground combat matters right now. It's sort of the opposite of the old joke about two Soviet tankers in Paris: two fleet admirals meet over the Contingency homeworld. One says to the other, who won the ground war?
Post by: Criptfeind on January 03, 2018, 08:16:08 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 03, 2018, 09:44:53 am
One major oversight I see is that they're removing defensive armies so you need to build fortresses... except you can just station a bunch of offensive armies on the planet for the same effect.
Offensive armies don't reduce unrest and are vulnerable to orbitable bombardment so it's really not the same. More of a stop-gap solution than a proper one.
While I agree with pretty much all of the changes, I also agree with Culise. Who cares who wins the ground war? As long as you have space superiority you can pretty much bombard planets to dust at will. Heck. With the new war weariness and warscore system I wouldn't be surprised if you could win some smaller conflicts simply by grinding the enemy's fleets down and blockading their planets.
Post by: Hanzoku on January 03, 2018, 12:26:41 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 03, 2018, 12:32:29 pm
Post by: Cruxador on January 03, 2018, 01:31:03 pm
I kinda like the idea of fortress worlds with planetary ftl inhibitors and tons of fortresses, just make it freaking impossible to take, actually slow down enemy fleets and stuff. Although at this point I'm kinda rooting for the changes to fail to produce a satisfactory result because I think Wiz is way too smug about them.Even if they don't work, he'll act like they did.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on January 03, 2018, 01:36:55 pm
So, there's been a new Dev Diary (Link (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/dev-diary-99-ground-combat-army-rework.1061707/)). Thoughts?I mean, they're not bad changes, but it's a bit like polishing a turd. I was hoping for a much larger overhaul of the ground combat system. The fact that they went less complicated and cut features instead of seeing the features through to their fullest conclusion is disappointing but sadly consistent with the general thrust of Stellaris development.
Also, the game is on sale, at a percentage that buying the base game (not either of the special editions), Leviathans Story Pack, Utopia, and Synthetic Dawn is about $5 above the base price for the game.
They are already overhauling a ton of stuff, and your reaction is 'they aren't doing enough'? They kinda have to get an update out at some point.
As for cutting features, they kinda seem to be streamlining to have a better ability to expand the game. Just look at how much was opened up by just limiting things to hyperlanes. And looking at the other reactions, was there really a point to keeping the old army system as it stood? Hell, this one could potentially be expanded to a greater degree of customization with the potential addition of different fortress paths to provide defensive armies with different focuses, with one type going for quantity provided, another for boosting damage, another for boosting health, and those latter two could be split into specializing in different ways (ie. one expands morale more than health which can be useful for fighting off psi empires) while being a hell of a lot more condensed than it would be on an army screen.
Although at this point I'm kinda rooting for the changes to fail to produce a satisfactory result because I think Wiz is way too smug about them.
I personally am driven in the opposite direction by the reactions of everyone here.
I probably won't build them anywhere outside of key frontier choke points where you can place those fancy planetary FTL inhibitors, and that only as a definite maybe.
It is stated in the Dev diary that there will be multiple tiers of fortress. If each increases the amount of unity, then why would you not build them instead of autochation monuments? Granted, if you are playing Spiritualist it is slightly more of a tradeoff, but still.
One major oversight I see is that they're removing defensive armies so you need to build fortresses... except you can just station a bunch of offensive armies on the planet for the same effect.
Offensive armies don't reduce unrest and are vulnerable to orbitable bombardment so it's really not the same. More of a stop-gap solution than a proper one.
While I agree with pretty much all of the changes, I also agree with Culise. Who cares who wins the ground war? As long as you have space superiority you can pretty much bombard planets to dust at will. Heck. With the new war weariness and warscore system I wouldn't be surprised if you could win some smaller conflicts simply by grinding the enemy's fleets down and blockading their planets.
Because now planets can flat out prevent your ships from leaving the system entirely unless captured if an FTL inhibitor is placed on them, and you can only change that with a ground invasion? And while you could bombard the buildings to dust it would likely take a hell of a long time to do so and you can't kill all the pops on the planet unless you have a bombardment stance that seems to be available only to fanatic purifiers?
One major oversight I see is that they're removing defensive armies so you need to build fortresses... except you can just station a bunch of offensive armies on the planet for the same effect.
Fortresses flat out prevent the armies they spawn from being able to be damaged by orbital bombardment, and assault armies wouldn't benefit from that.
Post by: Cruxador on January 03, 2018, 02:04:29 pm
The game has been out - not in development or early access, but actually out - for more than a year and a half. If they've taken this long to address a system that's clearly inadequate, they might as well take the time to do it right instead of replacing a system fit only to be a stopgap placeholder with an incrementally improved stopgap placeholder.So, there's been a new Dev Diary (Link (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/dev-diary-99-ground-combat-army-rework.1061707/)). Thoughts?I mean, they're not bad changes, but it's a bit like polishing a turd. I was hoping for a much larger overhaul of the ground combat system. The fact that they went less complicated and cut features instead of seeing the features through to their fullest conclusion is disappointing but sadly consistent with the general thrust of Stellaris development.
Also, the game is on sale, at a percentage that buying the base game (not either of the special editions), Leviathans Story Pack, Utopia, and Synthetic Dawn is about $5 above the base price for the game.
They are already overhauling a ton of stuff, and your reaction is 'they aren't doing enough'? They kinda have to get an update out at some point.
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As for cutting features, they kinda seem to be streamlining to have a better ability to expand the game.Repeating something but with added buzzwords isn't really a meaningful thing to do.
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Just look at how much was opened up by just limiting things to hyperlanes.Are you sure you shouldn't look yourself, instead of being told? Wiz has reasons, yes, but they break down if you examine them while thinking critically and considering what has been done well in other games. There's more justification there than just pulling a feature because he decided it wasn't worth building new UI for a mechanic that very clearly needs help anyway, but it's still pretty damn questionable whether it's a good decision.
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And looking at the other reactions, was there really a point to keeping the old army system as it stood? Hell, this one could potentially be expanded to a greater degree of customization with the potential addition of different fortress paths to provide defensive armies with different focuses, with one type going for quantity provided, another for boosting damage, another for boosting health, and those latter two could be split into specializing in different ways (ie. one expands morale more than health which can be useful for fighting off psi empires) while being a hell of a lot more condensed than it would be on an army screen.Please feel free to explain how these are mutually exclusive with attachments, particularly on assault armies.
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It is stated in the Dev diary that there will be multiple tiers of fortress. If each increases the amount of unity, then why would you not build them instead of autochation monuments? Granted, if you are playing Spiritualist it is slightly more of a tradeoff, but still.It's also stated that they give a small amount. That being the case, why would you prefer them over dedicated unity buildings if you don't need the defense?
Post by: Zangi on January 03, 2018, 02:53:27 pm
Sure, it ain't super optimal... but as long as you are feasibly able to build death traps for any xeno scum that tries to get into the heartland of your empire, I'm all for it.
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Assault Army Management
A major aim of our changes to armies is to reduce the amount of unnecessary micromanagement of armies. For this reason, and to make Assault Armies' role more explicit, we have decided to change Assault Armies to always be based in space. Whenever not directly engaged in an invasion, Assault Armies will now always automatically embark onto their transports, ready to be used to invade another world.
Though, I wonder about having assault armies sitting in transports 100% of the time they are not attacking a planet. Sounds like super easy pickings...
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 03, 2018, 02:57:03 pm
They changed that shortly after the Dev Diary but didn't change the content. Here's where a Dev mentioned it on Twitter. (https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/948157558874927104) So you can garrison with offensive armies. Just not very effectively.
Again. They've changed that since the Dev Diary. You can garrison assault armies on planets once again. They won't be the best as garrison forces but at least you can stuff as many as you want on a planet for safe keeping or whatever.
Post by: Zangi on January 03, 2018, 03:05:10 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 03, 2018, 03:10:12 pm
So, there's been a new Dev Diary (Link (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/dev-diary-99-ground-combat-army-rework.1061707/)). Thoughts?I don't like splitting armies from being able to garrison land. Collateral damage is moist, and I approve wholly, I just don't think it goes nearly far enough but I can fix that with modding (I remember suggesting a long while back how cool it would be for psionics to win with barely any collateral damage, while xenomorphs consumed everyone). Armageddon bombing finally does what it says on the tin, I have no idea why the hell they got rid of full bombardment or locked indiscriminate to >5. I find it par the course that instead of simply having army equipment templates they cut out additions altogether. The issue remains that defending a planet is altogether impossible and pointless once the war in the void is lost, I was really hoping that armies would instead have to fight tile to tile, and some planet terrains would actually affect how the campaign unfolded. There isn't really any reason why you'd want to build more Fortresses for non-rp reasons rather than build more industry to construct more ships. Oh wait lol, you get penalized for outnumbering the enemy, nvm. Build more tech instead.
Also, the game is on sale, at a percentage that buying the base game (not either of the special editions), Leviathans Story Pack, Utopia, and Synthetic Dawn is about $5 above the base price for the game.
The game has pops. Why not tie pops to military in a more meaningful way? Like 5 pops = 1 army, so choosing which planets to garrison is more important?
All in all, give it another 8-12 years, Stellaris II might be better than this
Oh that's cool again. Also hak hak hakThey changed that shortly after the Dev Diary but didn't change the content. Here's where a Dev mentioned it on Twitter. (https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/948157558874927104) So you can garrison with offensive armies. Just not very effectively.Again. They've changed that since the Dev Diary. You can garrison assault armies on planets once again. They won't be the best as garrison forces but at least you can stuff as many as you want on a planet for safe keeping or whatever.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on January 03, 2018, 04:33:31 pm
They are already overhauling a ton of stuff, and your reaction is 'they aren't doing enough'? They kinda have to get an update out at some point.The game has been out - not in development or early access, but actually out - for more than a year and a half. If they've taken this long to address a system that's clearly inadequate, they might as well take the time to do it right instead of replacing a system fit only to be a stopgap placeholder with an incrementally improved stopgap placeholder.
Games are so often under a continuous development state and the definitions of early access and released are so stretched at this point that I'm of the opinion games are not finished anymore, there's just a point where the developers stop working on it. As such, your argument here really doesn't work on me.
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QuoteJust look at how much was opened up by just limiting things to hyperlanes.Are you sure you shouldn't look yourself, instead of being told? Wiz has reasons, yes, but they break down if you examine them while thinking critically and considering what has been done well in other games. There's more justification there than just pulling a feature because he decided it wasn't worth building new UI for a mechanic that very clearly needs help anyway, but it's still pretty damn questionable whether it's a good decision.
I've played games of warp, hyperlane, and wormhole, and of them all, hyperlane provides the most strategic play with fortifying. Other two just boil down into fortify home systems, with wormholes addiing a basic fortify systems with your stations. Hyperlanes, by contrast, allow for you to build up layers of fortifications that you know they actually have to go through and deal with in order to reach your systems, and the switch to require you to go over to the jump point that really could only be done with hyperlanes just allows for these static defenses to be more effective. Sure they could have programmed in something that would make the defense in depth viable for warp and wormhole, but given those were already increasing lag and doing that would increase it much further, the limited paths just make more sense.
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QuoteAnd looking at the other reactions, was there really a point to keeping the old army system as it stood? Hell, this one could potentially be expanded to a greater degree of customization with the potential addition of different fortress paths to provide defensive armies with different focuses, with one type going for quantity provided, another for boosting damage, another for boosting health, and those latter two could be split into specializing in different ways (ie. one expands morale more than health which can be useful for fighting off psi empires) while being a hell of a lot more condensed than it would be on an army screen.Please feel free to explain how these are mutually exclusive with attachments, particularly on assault armies.
Sure they probably could have kept around attachments, but upgrading a building is quite simply easier to find and it would be two clicks for five armies rather than having to perform a ton of clinks on each army to do the same thing that as evidenced most don't focus on. Could be an argument for bringing them back for assault armies, I can admit.
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QuoteIt is stated in the Dev diary that there will be multiple tiers of fortress. If each increases the amount of unity, then why would you not build them instead of autochation monuments? Granted, if you are playing Spiritualist it is slightly more of a tradeoff, but still.It's also stated that they give a small amount. That being the case, why would you prefer them over dedicated unity buildings if you don't need the defense?
If it doesn't give you an equal amount of unity, then its a tradeoff based on whether you want defense or more unity. I don't see any problem with that.
Collateral damage is moist, and I approve wholly, I just don't think it goes nearly far enough but I can fix that with modding (I remember suggesting a long while back how cool it would be for psionics to win with barely any collateral damage, while xenomorphs consumed everyone).
As for how limited it is, I think they initially want to see how things go with this baseline change before they really go nuts with it. I personally await planetside defenses that cause attrition to enemy ships in orbit so long as they have a population on them.
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Armageddon bombing finally does what it says on the tin, I have no idea why the hell they got rid of full bombardment or locked indiscriminate to >5.
From what I can tell, full doesn't prevent the destruction of all the buildings, it just prevents the destruction of the last five populations. Basically consider the difference as being that Armageddon seeks to kill everyone while Indiscriminate misses some people as it focuses on the buildings.
The issue remains that defending a planet is altogether impossible and pointless once the war in the void is lost, I was really hoping that armies would instead have to fight tile to tile, and some planet terrains would actually affect how the campaign unfolded. There isn't really any reason why you'd want to build more Fortresses for non-rp reasons rather than build more industry to construct more ships. Oh wait lol, you get penalized for outnumbering the enemy, nvm. Build more tech instead.
Get enough defensive armies on a planet with an FTL inhibitor, you could lock down an enemy fleet in one system for months to years.
And FFS, the bonus to outnumbered isn't enough to win battles, all it does is get the smaller side able to get a little bit more damage in than before and would help out an empire that gets screwed by the RNG to be able to do something against a larger force.
Post by: StagnantSoul on January 03, 2018, 04:50:53 pm
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on January 03, 2018, 05:00:29 pm
Can't remember, is outnumbered based on ship count physical, fleet power, or fleet cap?
Pretty sure it was combined fleet power of all the fleets on both sides.
Post by: Cruxador on January 03, 2018, 05:07:57 pm
This is a side note, but I don't think any creative endeavor is really finished in a sense different from the creators ceasing to work on it further. Additional refinement is always possible, and so "done" is an arbitrary thing. None of this has any real bearing on what I actually said, though. The specific time and classification are merely ways to illustrate the core of the issue: Given that it's been broken for a long time, we can wait a bit longer to get a proper fix/enhancement instead of an incremental improvement.They are already overhauling a ton of stuff, and your reaction is 'they aren't doing enough'? They kinda have to get an update out at some point.The game has been out - not in development or early access, but actually out - for more than a year and a half. If they've taken this long to address a system that's clearly inadequate, they might as well take the time to do it right instead of replacing a system fit only to be a stopgap placeholder with an incrementally improved stopgap placeholder.
Games are so often under a continuous development state and the definitions of early access and released are so stretched at this point that I'm of the opinion games are not finished anymore, there's just a point where the developers stop working on it. As such, your argument here really doesn't work on me.
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If it doesn't give you an equal amount of unity, then its a tradeoff based on whether you want defense or more unity. I don't see any problem with that.I don't either, but if you don't then what was the point of your response to Culise on this matter in the first place?
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 03, 2018, 05:46:27 pm
As for how limited it is, I think they initially want to see how things go with this baseline change before they really go nuts with it. I personally await planetside defenses that cause attrition to enemy ships in orbit so long as they have a population on them.inb4 planetside dlc
From what I can tell, full doesn't prevent the destruction of all the buildings, it just prevents the destruction of the last five populations. Basically consider the difference as being that Armageddon seeks to kill everyone while Indiscriminate misses some people as it focuses on the buildings.There is no full bombardment. They're getting rid of it.
Right now we have:
Light bombardment - Military targets only, civilian collateral actively avoided.
Limited bombardment - Carpet bombing military targets, without regard for infrastructure damage. However, only light ship weapons are used, minimizing disruption to civilians
Full bombardment - Unleash every weapon in orbit upon the planet, guaranteeing elimination of military fortifications without regard to civilian casualties
Armageddon bombardment - Unleash every weapon in orbit upon the planet, actively pursuing all inhabited centres
At least that's the description for each. In reality it's more like:
Light bombardment - No one dies, no one's buildings will be smashed, planet will be cleared slowly
Limited bombardment - No one dies, no one's buildings will be smashed, planet will be cleared slowly
Full bombardment - You might ruin a building, planet will be cleared quickly
Armageddon bombardment - You'll get two pops max, but planet fortification will be cleared pronto
Planned:
Selective - Deals collateral damage, last 10 pops invincible
Indiscriminate - Blows up buildings, last 5 pops invincible
Armageddon - Purifiers and Exterminators only, no pops invincible
So basically they've condensed full and light. So there's no more light, and full & limited both got nerfed to have invincible pops. So if you bombard a planet with plasma lances for 5000 years there will always be 5 pops chilling there
Get enough defensive armies on a planet with an FTL inhibitor, you could lock down an enemy fleet in one system for months to years.If it's capable of holding back a clever AI or just prethoryn levels of offensive army spam for years, or decades, that's be pretty moisturizing. If it's just a speedbump for a few months it's really not worth it, the fleet blowing up your planet is just going to move onto your next planet full of dudes. I think this will definitely be something that will be fun to mod to extremes, like having 40k tier bullshit Fortress worlds that can take in waves and waves of prethoryn for centuries.
And FFS, the bonus to outnumbered isn't enough to win battles, all it does is get the smaller side able to get a little bit more damage in than before and would help out an empire that gets screwed by the RNG to be able to do something against a larger force.m8 you do see how it's an inherently stupid idea right?
Why is an inferior force increasing its fighting capabilities the weaker its strategic position is.tl;dr cost-effective battles win wars
There is no logic behind the weaker force fighting the far larger force in a conventional battle and inflicting such disproportionate casualties, the chance of them winning should not even be "likely to lose," it should be "almost certainly going to lose." I can't think of any strategy game that rewarded you for fighting on your opponent's strengths in this manner. For a grand strategy game it's even more puzzling, because the game is not about the fine managing of units, it's about amassing the resources and making the decisions which make the chances of victory certain before you've even declared war.
Right now militarily weaker states can use federations & defensive pacts to stall greater powers until such time as their economic and technological might overpowers them. But they possess no other means of fighting asymmetrical warfare short of funding a rival's enemies. This is a major weakness of the game, and I think the fact that the developers removed the ability to transfer planets because players were making locust pops is evidence enough that the devs are not only disinterested in adding asymmetrical avenues for undermining rivals, but is actively opposed to it for whatever reasons they keep to themselves. Thus in order to "solve" the problem that a militarily overwhelming foe annihilates its opponents in conventional battles, these measures have been introduced.
Thus I can play a pacifist nation that abhors violence and does not train its admirals or fleet, my tradition points spent on harmony, prosperity and discovery. My technology and economy is superior to my militiarist neighbour who spends much more on defence and devotes more of their planet to industry than me. If they do not challenge me militarily, I will assuredly become superior to them with the passing of time, as my technological and economic advantage increases exponentially. They double their fleet to twice the size of mine, putting an immense strain further upon their state, planning to invade me and thus reduce my advantage to their gain.
They declare war.
They have twice the ships I do, their admirals are more skilled, their people are geared towards war in tradition, having completed the supremacy traditions and naval exercise training. This is not their first war either, so they possess many veterans. My admirals have never seen battle before, my people hate the very idea of violence, their one advantage is they will fight harder to defend their homelands. I do no clever strategy, no devious trick. I do not conceal my ships in a great galactic ambush, I do not call in allies, I do not deploy devious weapons or politics, subversion or fast-raids. I attack this overwhelmingly superior foe head on in a conventional battle. Every one of my ships fights with superior skill and strategy, exacting a terrible toll upon the enemy. My species have no idea what they're doing but for reasons unknown they are superior to even the most elite enemy veterans. We are evenly matched, but I am far more capable of replacing my losses, with better industry, with more and more technologically advanced ships. I will win this war despite having made no preparations for it.
It breaks the game's verisimilitude for me. I do not see a mechanic which is logical or in accordance with any reality, I just see a mechanic the devs put in because they don't like large fleets causing decisive battles in space and couldn't think of anything better.
Consider that a fanatic militiarist government is one that is built around war first and foremost, whose peoples prepare for war in peace and look forward to it as an inevitable tradition of their species that must be continued. They get +20% to fire rate to represent their skill and experience at war. Consider that the fanatic purifier government represents the utmost extreme of a martial society, a peoples whose purpose in life is foremost war and extermination of all other life. Their dedication to this extreme militiarism renders them incapable of forming any diplomatic ties, but each of their ships gets +53% to fire rate.
An enemy whose peoples are not at all trained at war but are outnumbered 2 to 1 will find their ships fighting just as well as the enemy which spends entire generations of lives practicing at nothing but war. Not because they made any strategic decision, or had superior leadership, or the proper preparations. They are outnumbered therefore they fight as good as the best-trained elite navies in the galaxy.
Now imagine a fanatic purifier government is being invaded by a federation which has banded together to stop their extermination wars. Unfortunately they overwhelmingly outnumber the fanatical purifiers, so now if they fight a conventional battle their enemy will have a +103% fire rate. Thus to band together and have one fleet lead all allied fleets would be to make an incredibly poor life choice, despite all logic pointing to the contrary.
A state that made the correct choice in momentarily inflating their navy to exploit a weaker enemy that was teching up is now being punished, their fleets are suffering disproportionate damage despite the economic risk they took in bulking up their military. Thus if they are to profit from this decision, they must strike an overwhelming victory, otherwise the inferior foe will overcome them with their later game economic and technological advantage. Under this system, that state is punished for making the right decision, whereas there is no downside to getting tech hungry, because your smaller, technologically advanced fleet will be competitive with a purifier fleet twice the size of yours. And if you are a purifier yourself? Lmao +103% fire rate without traditions or admirals because your enemies band together instead of 1v1 you
*EDIT
Basically the design philosophy where you streamline the game experience into a monotony of grind into technofederation doesn't make sense. Because if there's one thing Stellaris needed, it was less choice? Nah what, PI team you guys are drunk
Post by: StagnantSoul on January 03, 2018, 06:20:30 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 03, 2018, 06:43:25 pm
I feel like the game could heavily benefit from some procedurally generated events.Needs:
-space economy
-planetary economy (even rudimentary abstraction of having buildings boost output in neighbouring tiles would be cool for example)
-non-military disruption of rivals and neighbours
-skirmishing
-exaggerated species traits
-planetary defences
-planetary climate diversification & tile variance (so planets aren't always 100% glaciers or deserts, but could be a mix of 30% deserts & 70% jungle for example)
-pacifists stop annihilating every other faction that doesn't want to act like a bee swarm someone's stuck their dick into
-better and more map UI. Still have no ethos map, no religion map, no species map, no map screenshot ability, no star map, no population map, no tech map, no galactic state comparisons
-pop & species personalities, thus far every pop is indistinguishable unless repugnant or charismatic
Nice but not necessary
-pop necessities
-pop luxuries
-warfare outside of gravity wells
-disruption of enemies unique to ascension paths
-a 3d galaxy. Not necessarily requiring representation by a 3d galaxy, but have political projection not operate 2d
-planets require land warfare instead of representing a level 2 fort in yuropa
-factions & sector governors do things on their own
-Tiles are improved beyond having abstractions like an entire continent devoted solely to power plants, farms and whatnot, instead having varied infrastructure per tile
-Option to enter a new game/galaxy with states in random degrees of advancement
-Late game doom weapons. Stuff mounted in space with planet destroyers, stuff happening per planet with genetic viruses, psionic warfare or synthetic infiltration ramped up to 9000
-Option to grant sectors different privileges and autonomy, with the ability to allow them to build their own warfleets or secede
Neat but unlikeliest to happen:
-Option to play as a faction
-Option to play as a nation from the fragmented stage or even earlier
-Option to play spore and start as a pre-sentient
Post by: TalonisWolf on January 03, 2018, 09:01:36 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 04, 2018, 04:02:59 am
You should add more tech divergence to that list.What kind of tech divergence? Also thinking on it further:
-Having the ability to do weighted RNG traits for certain species would also be fantastic though not necessary. Things like having certain portraits weigh towards certain traits, or some traits weighting towards other traits would be nice.
-Having a trait that only details what kind of food a species must eat to survive, and either split this into policy or split food production into meat, vegetable or mixed, and have carnivores, herbivores, omnivores, hyper-omnivores (eat everything like a swarm and create cattle pops) and synthetics (or perhaps more unique species requirements like lithovores who eat minerals). Could even have pop interactions taking into account Elf-Dorf interactions of ethics, so xenophiles can smooth over dietary issues, but other empires will take longer (harmony, diplo or tech?) to smooth things over. I like the idea of venus fly trap pops being cool with meatlings but deeply offended by vegetarians for example, thus it'd be nice to have more ethics than the basest and most general triple axis that is about as representative as a left-right-auth-lib chart.
-Spiritualist religions not all being the same. Thus two spiritualist Empires may compete with one another to spread their religion across the stars more than the other dudes can. I like this idea as one of the possible ways you can give people more things to do than just warfare. Xenophile-Spiritualists would be weighted towards syncretic and humanist religious policies, Materialists towards secular policy (separating the secular-religious government from civics & ethos) or creating space Megachurches which make $$££energy creditss££$$, Authoritarian-Spiritualists towards mysticism & organization, Xenophobe-Spiritualists towards inquisition & inwards perfection. That'd add a lot more dimension to the game
-Randomly generated culture. Not really necessary, but having pops have their own culture would be neat, even an abstract representation as culture divergence in addition to ethics divergence would be radicool
-Having the material limits for energy extend considerably, allowing materialists to amass ludicrous sums of capital with which to corner galactic markets (win condition, buy everything)
Post by: Zangi on January 04, 2018, 11:13:55 am
Post by: TalonisWolf on January 04, 2018, 02:08:50 pm
You should add more tech divergence to that list.What kind of tech divergence?
Things like needing certain resources to research and use certain techs, thus making empires more unique and systems more interesting on a strategic level.
Post by: Nelia Hawk on January 05, 2018, 12:04:03 am
Post by: Dunamisdeos on January 05, 2018, 02:33:49 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on January 05, 2018, 03:37:37 pm
I think it'd be a pretty cool option though, to at least have it as an option. Especially if the game had a lot more depth then it currently does, with multiple paths to develop your nation and such so you could have meaningful different tech paths and weighting of certain techs.
Post by: Justin on January 05, 2018, 04:14:11 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on January 05, 2018, 04:26:30 pm
Anyone here play the new horizons star trek mod?
i have. it's good but so slow. so slow.
content continues to improve, of course. not sure the performance does (or will ever) make it worth it.
Post by: Shadowlord on January 06, 2018, 12:18:28 pm
There's the smaller whole galaxy scenario, which I haven't tried yet, and there's an alpha/beta quadrant scenario (I don't know if that leaves out the Borg or if they show up via events), too, and those should have better performance.
Post by: Culise on January 06, 2018, 02:17:39 pm
I've been playing a federation game on the full map for 4 days, and it's only 2271. The slowdown from the early game is very noticeable, but so far I don't really mind.I never actually managed to reach a crisis due to the slowdown, but I just rummaged around through the files a bit. It looks like the only crises that would be considered like that are the Mirror Universe and Undine/Species whatever at present, but the latter relies on the Borg existing to stir them up. If we wanted to talk crises for the smaller maps, the Borg and Dominion would make obvious and great options, but I think they tend to focus on the full galaxy map where those empires are already available for regular play.
There's the smaller whole galaxy scenario, which I haven't tried yet, and there's an alpha/beta quadrant scenario (I don't know if that leaves out the Borg or if they show up via events), too, and those should have better performance.
I do enjoy it, and they do some interesting things with the game, but it does drag noticeably on my poor old machine even with the smallest 500 star Alpha/Beta Quadrant map.
Post by: Descan on January 06, 2018, 02:26:30 pm
The random tech tree in SotS is really cool at first but it eventually became (for me at least) like "Oh. I failed a 90% roll to break into this part of the tech tree. I guess I won't have this option and I'll just be weaker for the rest of the game."Different techs for different empires would be neat if it wasn't (100% at least) random. But right now the game is simplistic enough that I'm not really sure how that could work; It's not like there's a real diplomatic game, espionage, or (civilian) economy. It's mostly ship techs, government techs, and building techs.
I think it'd be a pretty cool option though, to at least have it as an option. Especially if the game had a lot more depth then it currently does, with multiple paths to develop your nation and such so you could have meaningful different tech paths and weighting of certain techs.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 07, 2018, 11:01:19 am
Post by: Hanzoku on January 07, 2018, 11:22:52 am
If you want to micro further, make a small but powerful enough fleet to Thunder Run through their systems and pop their spaceports, which cuts off any reinforcements bigger than Corvettes for at least a year.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 07, 2018, 12:07:40 pm
Maybe float around with smaller fleets destroying outposts while I constantly build sacrificial frigate fleets to pop their spaceports? and also build that invasion force?
Post by: Paul on January 07, 2018, 01:45:04 pm
If you're lucky they may be low on energy already and you can get quick results. I managed to successfully do this vs a huge fanatical purifier. Their fleet power dropped hard as soon as the negative energy penalty got applied, and I was able to beat them with my much weaker fleet.
Just note that if there is a trader enclave or friendly empires nearby (not an issue vs fanatical purifier, heh) they will trade for energy - so it may take a while to see results or not work at all depending on how strong their economy is.
Having no energy is just as crippling to the AI as the player. They may even disband a chunk of their ships.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 07, 2018, 06:38:02 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 07, 2018, 07:20:26 pm
Post by: TalonisWolf on January 07, 2018, 07:30:07 pm
Small vs large combat is one thing the 2.0 rules changes are supposed to help with. You won't be able to win against overwhelming odds but might be able to force a peace by driving up their war weariness
This is one of the things I'm waiting on before I try another Stellaris LP.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 07, 2018, 08:36:01 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 08, 2018, 06:07:39 pm
I mean, I was pretty outnumbered. Like... with alliances... probably 16k vs 7k in fleet strength and ~70 to ~10 in armies.Under the new rules, he'd have had to battle through your fortified systems as well and every loss would cause his war weariness to rise. At some point it will be better for him to accept a status quo peace where he keeps what he managed to take and you truce out
Post by: Draignean on January 08, 2018, 06:40:53 pm
I mean, I was pretty outnumbered. Like... with alliances... probably 16k vs 7k in fleet strength and ~70 to ~10 in armies.
That's great! Under the new rules you'll get a substantial boost to firing speed as well, which, along with a couple fortified border outposts, should let you force disproportionate war exhaustion against a superior force!
... I'm a wee bit salty about the fire-rate one. Sorry.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 08, 2018, 07:37:23 pm
Post by: Culise on January 09, 2018, 01:40:10 am
Alas, if only I had 7k mustered at the start of the war and any fortified systems in which to bleed his fleet.That's alright; under the existing game rules, you couldn't put together enough of a fortified system to bleed an enemy fleet outside of (a) the very early game and/or (b) mods. Except for first-war strategies at the point in the game where a dozen corvettes comprise your entire fleet, fortifications are the victim of a positively Pattonian outlook: they don't scale to fleet power well, they cannot be concentrated in sufficient force, and non-hyperlane empires can typically trivially bypass them. The only real thing you can manage is the strategy that Paul suggested and you already tried.
I'm a bit ambivalent on how much the new game mechanics will actually work around that. You probably won't get *that* substantial a boost to firing speed, given that the only evidence we have (one datum) suggests that at the present scaling, you need to be outnumbered a hundred-to-one simply to double your fleet power. Merely being outnumbered two-to-one doesn't necessarily translate to that much of an advantage unless they used a logarithmic growth factor (and why would they?), and it won't count at all if your fortified border outposts already make up the strength difference because it scales by combat power in action rather than number of ships. Forced hyperlanes, FTL-locks, and planetary fortification changes will prevent enemies from bypassing your planets, but that's a sword that cuts both ways. If you can't bypass their hardened frontier planets, how can you raid their nougat-filled interior? It all depends on how powerful those fixed fortifications actually are, and we're very short on actual numbers on that front. Being able to build X defense platforms is all well and good, but if those defense platforms are as good as corvettes in an era of battleships, that's no better than what we have now. I fear, hopefully groundlessly, that the net effect of the new changes may actually reduce the hitting power of smaller empires on a strategic level. Given that my typical approach to dealing with early-awakenings is to cheese the AI as Hanzoku suggested, that doesn't auger well.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 09, 2018, 11:05:48 am
So it would still be beneficial to operate the grand fleet for short periods of time, but for a long war, you would have to separate fleets to be able to operate long enough to see the conclusion of the war.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 09, 2018, 12:40:28 pm
Post by: Draignean on January 09, 2018, 12:46:30 pm
What the fuck is up with this game now?
The AI seems to have the ability to summon ships from the aether. I ANNIHILATED their fleets, went to their planet.
Within a month, they had a fleet about 2/3 the size of mine attacking mine. Then they had a fleet making up the other 1/3. Then ANOTHER fleet making up ANOTHER 1/3. Then that last fleet went from 1.8k strength to 3k strength for NO REASON! (And note, it did this in the middle of the battle. It wasn't two fleets merging, as they were all still present (all the fleets appeared in rapid succession))
How do I win against this? It seems fucking impossible! I can't compete with an AI that seems to be pulling in 400 minerals a month when I'm pulling in 100, and is able to build a fleet containing loads of corvettes, destroyers, and cruisers within 2 months time!
EDIT Oh yeah, and add on top of that the fact that the AI REFUSES to make defensive pacts with me. There were two empires I was hoping for one with. Got an NAP with one of them, the other, in spite of loving me, had no interest in anything (up until the war started, and ofc by that point it's too late to fucking get a pact isn't it?). NAP one was consistently unwilling to get a pact with me, in spite of the fact I was more powerful than them, they had a +10 from hegemonic imperialists, we had 75 trust... They just did NOT want one.
Which difficulty are you on? This might actually drag me back into playing. Used to be that I'd end up in a bunch of silly wars where I was basically an uncontested power, and I'd end up just slogging through a galaxy populated by races utilizing wet cardboard as their premier construction material.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 09, 2018, 12:53:20 pm
Your fleet is probably smaller than theirs. The AI treats its fleet limit as more of an optional suggestion. Which means less money into starbases (after the first level of course) and more money into fleets. Also since going over your fleet capacity mainly hurts energy income, if you use that strategy I guess you can put less minerals into planetary structures (which take energy) and again more minerals into fleets. That "new" fleet may well have been already built. It could have been split off from the main fleet fleet bombing a primitive planet or fighting mining drones somewhere. The AI really does churn out more starships than you'd expect.
The AI values defensive pacts with you based on your fleet power. But the AI doesn't know which techs are good when judging you. It seems to overvalue *number* of techs and undervalue key techs (like strongest weapon for example). So having 9 weapon researches all in different tracks IME counts for more than 5 researches all in the same track. Even tho logically one great weapon design should be better than your pick of 3 mediocre ones. Also from what I can tell skipping techs counts as a full missed tech to the AI, even if the skipped tech is vastly worse than the later one. Expensive techs do seem to count for more, but not *that* much more.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 09, 2018, 01:01:31 pm
In general my experience on normal difficulty is thus: The AI makes a lot of ships early on the game so you can be taken by surprise in the 3-6k fleet size range by how quickly they get there, and if you don't move fast enough yourself you might come under an unpleasant surprise attack, however, doing so tanks it's economy and makes the the AI basically irrelevant for the rest of the game. The early game against AI is a slight balancing act to make sure you hit that point with 3-4k so that they won't attack you until they inevitably crash and burn and you can walk over them.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 09, 2018, 01:17:32 pm
Post by: Wysthric on January 09, 2018, 08:01:29 pm
That makes so much sense oh my god. Whenever I play a militaristic race I try to compete militarily early on. Under the assumption that if I can't grow via conquest in the short term, the economic and diplomatic nations will grow faster than I do. So I inevitably get crushed. When play peaceful races I expand only when its clear I'm going to win and I'm not going to piss off any valuable friends. Thus I bide my time until, I guess, the AI crashes and burns?
Running one game, I did actually manage to eat enough by going FULL WAR and quashing two nearby empires to compete with the other empires in the area. In the end, then only real two empires in the running were myself and the Genocidals of roughly equal size and power.
Until the Xenophobic FE awakened and declared war. GG. Love the game but an AI nation suddenly getting 330k fleet power when you've got 60k and no diplomatic options ruins the challenge of an ironman run. So frustrating.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 10, 2018, 10:24:38 am
Running one game, I did actually manage to eat enough by going FULL WAR and quashing two nearby empires to compete with the other empires in the area. In the end, then only real two empires in the running were myself and the Genocidals of roughly equal size and power.If your tech is greatly inferior to the FE, refuse thralldom and engage their fleet in battle. You will lose, your fleet destroyed, your leader executed, nation humiliated and subjected to thralldom, but you will win - because you will be able to reverse engineer all of the FE's technology.
Until the Xenophobic FE awakened and declared war. GG. Love the game but an AI nation suddenly getting 330k fleet power when you've got 60k and no diplomatic options ruins the challenge of an ironman run. So frustrating.
If your tech is not so inferior to the FE, just submit to them, just as you would eliminate the Byzantines in CK2: A superior enemy is often easier destroyed from within its borders. As a thrall to the xenophobe FE you can still annex all of its vassals (it is better for you to leave thralls alive with 1 planet to maximize decadence growth). Once decadence growth has hit it peak, the Fallen Empire is fucked.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on January 10, 2018, 10:42:52 am
Running one game, I did actually manage to eat enough by going FULL WAR and quashing two nearby empires to compete with the other empires in the area. In the end, then only real two empires in the running were myself and the Genocidals of roughly equal size and power.
Until the Xenophobic FE awakened and declared war. GG. Love the game but an AI nation suddenly getting 330k fleet power when you've got 60k and no diplomatic options ruins the challenge of an ironman run. So frustrating.
it's typical paradox metagame bullshit. oh, you didn't know that passing an arbitrary threshold in fleet power would have devastating consequences for your game? better luck next time.
oh, this round you knew that passing 40 or 50k in fleet size would risk awakening an empire so you gamed it by jumping immediately from 40 to 80k and then chain declaring war on each fallen empire? now it's 2350 and there's nothing left to do for 50 years until a crisis? thanks for playing, the next $20 expansion will be out in 6 months.
Post by: andrea on January 10, 2018, 10:46:15 am
Post by: Karnewarrior on January 10, 2018, 11:16:06 pm
you know, surrendering to a FE is not the end of the game. It is a perfectly reasonable strategy to just let them eat the entire galaxy yourself included, and build up until they decay and you can set up a grand coalition of rebellious vassals to take them down.Can you voluntarily submit to them at any time, or is it a "Either when they awake or when they attack you with a vassalizing casus belli or nothing" type of thing?
Post by: QuakeIV on January 10, 2018, 11:20:03 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on January 10, 2018, 11:34:49 pm
However, once they do wake up, you can ask to become their whatever, and I've not seen them in a place where they'd turn you down. Maybe if you really piss them off somehow with wars and rivalry and such? Alternatively, when they do wardeck you, I think most of the time (always maybe?) making you into their pseudo vassal is an option for 50 warscore, which is I think enough to just sue for peace right away and become their vassal without loosing anything that way.
Post by: Hanzoku on January 11, 2018, 05:36:07 am
funny enough, in my last game, I had declared on the awakened empire right after they woke up and managed to win, but couldn't take all their planets, so they were down to two systems. They managed to piss off the fallen empire next to them through a rivalry, so the FE went and blew their awakened cousin's fleet to hell and killed their colonies except for their capital.
About ten years later, the Crisis started, and the little Awakened Empire ended up joining a Federation briefly before leaving it again. Imagine my surprise when, after the Crisis, I come up against the Federation fleet with top-tier technology. They had built as many Federation ships as they could while they had access to the FE tech.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 11, 2018, 08:59:39 am
Stellaris: Apocalypse
http://store.steampowered.com/app/716670/Stellaris__Apocalypse/
Post by: Hanzoku on January 11, 2018, 09:28:51 am
No, seriously, that's it? Maybe someone should show them New Ship Classes & More which has given you the Flagship and Superdreadnought for years now that does the same thing. And why the hell would I wipe out a planet when I can take it and use it? As for the crisis/pirates, they'll just get wiped out by the early midgame anyway when the whole galaxy is settled and there's no place for them to spawn from.
Post by: Ultimuh on January 11, 2018, 09:58:31 am
Planetary destruction has been one of the (many) things I have been waiting for ever since Stellaris was first announced.
Quote
World Cracker: Shatters a planet, leaving behind a broken debris field that can be mined for resources. Available to non-Pacifists.
Global Pacifier: Encases the planet in an impenetrable shield, permanently cutting it off from the rest of the galaxy. A research station can be built to study the planet afterwards.
Neutron Sweep: Destroys most higher forms of life on the planet but leaves the infrastructure intact for colonization. Available to non-Spiritualist, non-Pacifist empires.
God Ray: Converts all organic Pops on the planet to spiritualist and destroys all machine/synthetic pops, as well as massively increasing spiritualist ethics attraction on the planet for a time. Available to Spiritualist empires.
Nanobot Dispersal: Assimilates all Pops on the planet, causing it to defect to your empire with its newly cyborgized population. Only available to Driven Assimilators (and thus requires Synthetic Dawn as well).
But I feel like the God Ray weapon seems to be the least interesting of them all.
They could have done something a bit more.. spectacular of it.
But that's just me I guess.
Post by: Teneb on January 11, 2018, 10:07:02 am
And why the hell would I wipe out a planet when I can take it and use it?Sometimes you can't afford to hold a planet, but don't want an enemy to have it either. This way you can do both.
Post by: Ultimuh on January 11, 2018, 10:40:43 am
And some times you just want to make an example of a rival civ's planet.And why the hell would I wipe out a planet when I can take it and use it?Sometimes you can't afford to hold a planet, but don't want an enemy to have it either. This way you can do both.
It's not always about resources or colonization. Some times you need to send a message to all who dare to oppose you.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 11, 2018, 10:55:38 am
Quote
World Cracker: Shatters a planet, leaving behind a broken debris field that can be mined for resources. Available to non-Pacifists.Noice
Quote
Global Pacifier: Encases the planet in an impenetrable shield, permanently cutting it off from the rest of the galaxy. A research station can be built to study the planet afterwards.haha this one is hilarious. DOMES 4 UUUU
Quote
Neutron Sweep: Destroys most higher forms of life on the planet but leaves the infrastructure intact for colonization. Available to non-Spiritualist, non-Pacifist empires.I kinda liked having the Unbidden being the only faction capable of doing this, since it made it special when the Unbidden left whole sectors full of ghost worlds where the cities remain but the people are all gone. Nevertheless, cool
Quote
God Ray: Converts all organic Pops on the planet to spiritualist and destroys all machine/synthetic pops, as well as massively increasing spiritualist ethics attraction on the planet for a time. Available to Spiritualist empires.What seems not all that spectacular at first is made funnier at just how powerful this one can be. Without destroying the enemy's planet, you can force convert all the states in the galaxy into spiritualists. With a little modding you could make it so that this can be used by any ethos, so individualists have a freedom ray and so on. Shame they don't get a more destructive planet exploder though, but with spiritualist-pacifists this would make for a viable way to permanently cripple warlike states.
Quote
Nanobot Dispersal: Assimilates all Pops on the planet, causing it to defect to your empire with its newly cyborgized population. Only available to Driven Assimilators (and thus requires Synthetic Dawn as well).Now it's just a shame that hive minds aren't allowed their own swarm assimilation :(
Also the apocalyptic auths like purifiers & exterminators don't get their own stuff, nor militiarists?
Sometimes you don't want anyone living on the planet, and want to carve out a dead space between your state and the rest of the galaxy, thus avoiding friction and allowing for maximum isolation as you become a fallen empire. Also this could be useful if you want to blow up planets to make way for ringworlds. And sometimes you just want to get rid of enemies wholsesaleAnd why the hell would I wipe out a planet when I can take it and use it?Sometimes you can't afford to hold a planet, but don't want an enemy to have it either. This way you can do both.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 11, 2018, 11:21:00 am
Post by: umiman on January 11, 2018, 11:38:28 am
At least there's planet destroyers now.
Post by: Cruxador on January 11, 2018, 11:41:36 am
I don't find these guns as exciting as the capital ships though. Passive buffs might make fleet building a bit more interesting. The ambition system for unity could be good as well. That's a system that needed something else to patch it up so hopefully this does the job.
Post by: Draignean on January 11, 2018, 11:59:58 am
QuoteWorld Cracker: Shatters a planet, leaving behind a broken debris field that can be mined for resources. Available to non-Pacifists.
Global Pacifier: Encases the planet in an impenetrable shield, permanently cutting it off from the rest of the galaxy. A research station can be built to study the planet afterwards.
Neutron Sweep: Destroys most higher forms of life on the planet but leaves the infrastructure intact for colonization. Available to non-Spiritualist, non-Pacifist empires.
God Ray: Converts all organic Pops on the planet to spiritualist and destroys all machine/synthetic pops, as well as massively increasing spiritualist ethics attraction on the planet for a time. Available to Spiritualist empires.
Nanobot Dispersal: Assimilates all Pops on the planet, causing it to defect to your empire with its newly cyborgized population. Only available to Driven Assimilators (and thus requires Synthetic Dawn as well).
But I feel like the God Ray weapon seems to be the least interesting of them all.
They could have done something a bit more.. spectacular of it.
But that's just me I guess.
Knock Knock.
Who's that at the galactic door?
It's JESUS!
Post by: PTTG?? on January 11, 2018, 02:47:23 pm
QuoteWorld Cracker: Shatters a planet, leaving behind a broken debris field that can be mined for resources. Available to non-Pacifists.
Global Pacifier: Encases the planet in an impenetrable shield, permanently cutting it off from the rest of the galaxy. A research station can be built to study the planet afterwards.
Neutron Sweep: Destroys most higher forms of life on the planet but leaves the infrastructure intact for colonization. Available to non-Spiritualist, non-Pacifist empires.
God Ray: Converts all organic Pops on the planet to spiritualist and destroys all machine/synthetic pops, as well as massively increasing spiritualist ethics attraction on the planet for a time. Available to Spiritualist empires.
Nanobot Dispersal: Assimilates all Pops on the planet, causing it to defect to your empire with its newly cyborgized population. Only available to Driven Assimilators (and thus requires Synthetic Dawn as well).
But I feel like the God Ray weapon seems to be the least interesting of them all.
They could have done something a bit more.. spectacular of it.
But that's just me I guess.
Knock Knock.
Who's that at the galactic door?
It's JESUS!
Thanks Bill Wurtz.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 11, 2018, 03:31:36 pm
Post by: sprinkled chariot on January 11, 2018, 03:58:07 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 11, 2018, 04:15:14 pm
Make one that changes everyone's ethos to militarist and call it the WAAAAAAGGHH beam.BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD. SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!
Post by: Rolan7 on January 11, 2018, 04:55:33 pm
Post by: Putnam on January 11, 2018, 05:06:04 pm
Post by: TalonisWolf on January 11, 2018, 05:30:07 pm
Shielded worlds have been in since release, yeah?
As an anomaly, yes. But not as something you could do yourself.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 11, 2018, 05:55:12 pm
Shielded worlds have been in since release, yeah?Yeah as entities that exist in the hearts of Fanatic Xenophobe fallen Empires. They usually contain stuff like ships or an admiral inside them. I think it'd be funny to have mods where you accidentally unleash a prethoryn or something from one of them lol, but otherwise they're pretty inconsequential right now. Permanently shielding every single planet in the cosmos is just hilarious
Post by: Criptfeind on January 11, 2018, 06:02:23 pm
Post by: TalonisWolf on January 11, 2018, 06:39:00 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on January 11, 2018, 07:44:58 pm
Seems like a fun goal for Rogue Servitors.
Post by: JimboM12 on January 11, 2018, 07:50:03 pm
I want to play as an Xenophobic, Isolationist Empire which seals everyone else away so they can have the galaxy to themselves.
... the ur-quan? ha ;)
now i need to make an ur-quan mod.
Post by: Zangi on January 12, 2018, 01:46:56 pm
Organic Pop on the planet are either purged(for heresy), convert to spiritualist, or escape the planet as refugees. All machine and synthetic pops will be purged or escape as refugees.
... Now add in civilian transport fleets that represent a pop leaving a planet and going to another.... / wandering for a place that would take them.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 13, 2018, 03:11:09 am
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on January 13, 2018, 03:25:28 am
This game needs more space traffic in general, it's all too orderly and concentrated right now.
I can think of three mods (last to a limited degree) off the top of my head:
Civilian Trade: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=693402022
ISBS - Living Systems: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=741194923
SGM Supply Lines: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=929400957
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 13, 2018, 05:32:11 am
*EDIT
Flying advertisement drones in space is just pure beauty
Post by: Ultimuh on January 13, 2018, 07:45:14 am
*EDIT
Flying advertisement drones in space is just pure beauty
Too bad they tend to lag my game on a 1000 system galaxy.
I do like these mods, but I also like to have a relatively stable game running.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on January 13, 2018, 01:59:42 pm
Edit: Also, armageddon bombardment turns the planets into a tomb world. Don't know if that was known or not.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 13, 2018, 09:31:21 pm
Post by: Hanzoku on January 19, 2018, 04:37:22 am
Also, did anyone ever get a clear answer from Paradox why the psionic branch is so much better then the Synthetic and biomod ascentions? I mean, the differences aren't even comparable:
Psionic:
- access to one of the best armies + support mods
- access to the best drive technology without having to fight a fallen/awakened empire for it
- best shield technology
- best combat computer technology
- best leader bonuses
- boss-tier ship spawn
Biomod:
You can mod your species better. Yay. No extra techs, troops are less powerful then the psi warriors.
Synthetic:
Your leaders are immortal. That said, why not just play a robot from the start. No extra techs, nothing particularly special.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 19, 2018, 05:39:12 am
Synthetics leader bonuses are also comparable to psionic ones, I'd argue that their governor and Ruler bonus is significantly better, the general bonus is unimportant probably but better, and the other two leaders are slightly worse the their Psi counterparts (except the chosen one admiral, who's an absolute beast and is significantly better then a Synth Admiral)
Sapient Combat Computers is about as good as Precognitive Combat Computers. Not really Synth vs Psi, but Psi vs everyone else there.
Army wise their bonuses don't matter for much either way, but I'd argue that five free android armies is a better army bonus then the psi armies, especially since psi armies aren't universally great against everything, specifically robot and android armies, and they cost quite a bit more then android armies for what's basically a bonus to winning close fights (moral damage doesn't increase the speed of taking the planet, so for almost all army combats it doesn't actually matter to the outcome, and attachment wise clone commanders is probably the best attachment)
Immortal rulers also isn't nothing although yeah, as I've argued previously in this thread it's also not that significant.
All in all I think the Synth bonuses are significantly better then Psi bonuses, although they are comparable and have trade offs (certainly the fact that psi is free is pretty good). Genetic Ascension is just... Not nearly as good as the others imo. Although it's probably not absolutely terrible. If you already had a heavily micromanaged empire with distinct pops working resource tiles (maybe a slaver Syncretic Evolution game? I've never been able to finish one of those, the management was just too fiddly for me) it'd probably be quite good, although the lack of leader traits is pretty meh. "Genetic Paragon" or something for some bonuses would be nice. But it's clearly the "we only thought of two things, both pretty niche, so I guess here's this for people outside that niche" path. Better then Synthetic Age I guess.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 19, 2018, 06:01:58 am
Biomod:
You can mod your species better. Yay. No extra techs, troops are less powerful then the psi warriors.
Missing the most significant feature of this:
-You can remove and add traits at will.
Allows you to create super locust pops and uber pops. Share uber pops with your allies, share super locust pops with your rivals. Tailor make your pops to your worlds specifications at will.
Synthetic ascension sucks. It's worse than cybernetics, so upgrading into synthetics downgrades your cybernetic organics. You can have the benefit of synth resource output without the loss of leader traits or the loss of species resulting from synthetic upgrading... By simply building synths instead of using two ascension perks
Post by: Criptfeind on January 19, 2018, 07:14:30 am
That said it's true you can just build synths to get the synth bonuses. Which is, like, significant. Although if you have migration treaties in the middish lategameish time, you can often get tons of pops from other empires migrating to your worlds, and then turn all their sorta crappy pops into great synth pops for free (Although you could do that with bio ascension as well, for a higher cost) which is significant as well. And like, if Synths are better anyway, it feels like you'd want your whole pop to be them. The real bonus of synth ascension sorta feels like the ability to grow your population of robots super fast, first with organic free growth and migration and later with migration treaties. And then take all those shitty organic pops and turn them into synth super pops for free.
Mono world empires in the late game can I guess benefit from genetic ascension more, that's true. So do Synths to a lesser degree. Especially organic slaves on monoworlds (or otherwise distinct from your main species, potentially via being a slave race.... Or by making Synths your "main" species and nerve stapling your actual guys) I think I'd rather have Synths in the power stations and research labs, and super genemoded organic slaves in the mines. (Or best of both worlds if you're optimizing for minerals, Synth slaves.)
Searching online has some people saying that you can make Synths have Caste system if that's how you are when you ascended. If that's true (thinking about it, I've never done a robot game with slaves so I have no idea... I don't actually know if the slavery bonuses even apply to Synths! Although the wiki seems to imply that they do) You wouldn't quite have the minerals of Very Strong/Industrious/nerve stapled/ServilesorProles slaves under synth leaders (+40% from synths and +45% for the full combo on organics, before slavery bonuses). On the other hand you wouldn't have to take Syncretic Species or hope to find and uplift the right presapient.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 19, 2018, 10:36:41 am
Synthetic ascension sucks. It's worse than cybernetics, so upgrading into synthetics downgrades your cybernetic organics. You can have the benefit of synth resource output without the loss of leader traits or the loss of species resulting from synthetic upgrading... By simply building synths instead of using two ascension perks
The only advantage that cybernetics have over synthetics are the advantages that regular, non-cybernetic pops get. Cyborg leader traits are strictly worse than synthetic ones, and the cyborg pop trait offers only army damage and habitability. With the addition of robomodding in Synthetic Dawn, cyborgs are only better than synths at collecting minerals while requiring slightly more micromanagement for slightly less gain. Synths produce more energy, slightly more research, way more unity, have immortal leaders, maximum habitability, require less consumer goods, and consume energy instead of food which is way more efficient (7 base food production for 3 energy versus 8 energy for no upkeep). So unless I'm missing something really good, I'm not sure how cyborgs are way better than synths that you shouldn't upgrade them.
...
Also, am I the only one that finds it ironic that organic pops are significantly better at collecting minerals than synths but worse at research/unity? You'd think it'd be the other way around but apparently not.
Allows you to create super locust pops and uber pops. Share uber pops with your allies, share super locust pops with your rivals. Tailor make your pops to your worlds specifications at will.
Having seen the AI at work, I can assure you that they don't need locust pops to sabotage their economy. The AI can do that very well on its own. :v
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 19, 2018, 12:08:45 pm
The only advantage that cybernetics have over synthetics are the advantages that regular, non-cybernetic pops get.And these advantages are way fucking juicy to the max; cybernetics add to the juiciness of options available to organics, synthetics override them.
Synths produce more energy, slightly more research, way more unity, have immortal leaders, maximum habitability, require less consumer goods, and consume energy instead of food which is way more efficient (7 base food production for 3 energy versus 8 energy for no upkeep). So unless I'm missing something really good, I'm not sure how cyborgs are way better than synths that you shouldn't upgrade them.Energy is meaningless, synth research is inferior to psionic intelligent or erudite (not factoring in natural scientist bonuses), leaders never die already, unity is impossible to not accrue and ends up being useless at the end, habitability is not as powerful as it once was now that organics can colonize everything too, organic food is superior - most food is provided by paradise gardens (giving +5% happiness) and additional food accelerates organic pop growth for which there exists no mechanic for synthetic pops to replicate. The most major flaw is that the evolutionary and psionic ascension paths can exploit all of the strengths of synthetics with none of the weaknesses whilst retaining the strengths of organics AND gaining exclusive advantages from their ascension paths.
Also, am I the only one that finds it ironic that organic pops are significantly better at collecting minerals than synths but worse at research/unity? You'd think it'd be the other way around but apparently not.imo all traits, organic and inorganic need great exaggerations to give them all greater feels in mechanical playstyles. Top it all off, synths are probably greatly undervalued for their theoretical output - imagine you have a worker that never sleeps, they should be greatly more productive than they actually are in game (unless synths spend half the day shitposting?).
Having seen the AI at work, I can assure you that they don't need locust pops to sabotage their economy. The AI can do that very well on its own. :vBut it is adorable seeing your little cute locusts spread everywhere, especially if they're uplifted ones that love your Empire & only your Empire
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 19, 2018, 01:48:27 pm
Energy is meaningless, leaders never die already, unity is impossible to not accrue and ends up being useless at the end, habitability is not as powerful as it once was now that organics can colonize everything too, organic food is superior - most food is provided by paradise gardens (giving +5% happiness) and additional food accelerates organic pop growth for which there exists no mechanic for synthetic pops to replicate.
Energy is definitely not meaningless. Late-game fleets take up a ton of energy maintenance and I've felt the crunch plenty of times before. At the very least, more energy production means less tiles spent producing energy and more on stuff you really want. As a organic empire I've never really experienced the 'leaders never die' thing but you're probably right on that point. I see your point on habitability too. While unity is impossible not to accumulate, having the bonus is nice for filling out the rest of your traditions while still expanding aggressively. Unless you really prioritize it in the early game or play tall it helps into the late game.
Consuming organic food is strictly worse to consuming energy. Unless I'm missing something Paradise Gardens/Domes only provide 4 food which is definitely not enough to feed an entire planet, let alone an empire. So organic empires still have to waste tiles on inefficient farms to feed their pops. Food accelerating growth is also far less powerful than you think it is. Synths have fixed build times (reduced by roughly a quarter thanks to Synthetic Evolution). Organic pops have growth times that scale exponentially with the number of pops on a planet. Under optimal circumstances organic pops can grow faster than synthetic ones but optimal circumstances are definitely not realistic in a game. Besides having 100% habitability on all planets with growing pops, you need to maintain a food surplus of 20+ per growing pop. That's a massive waste of resources for such a minor bonus. Realistically a synth pop is going to grow faster than an organic one unless there's less than 5 pops on the planet already. The faster breeder trait does exist but the synths get a slightly better one so it's a bit of a wash there. Organic pops do get +45% from Harmony and the Cyto-Revitalization Center but that's not enough on their own. Assuming no food surplus and 100% habitability, the two of them combined are enough to beat synthetic growth times up until you have 3 pops on a planet. Of course they also boost the bonus from the food surplus but I've already included those in my calculations.
The most major flaw is that the evolutionary and psionic ascension paths can exploit all of the strengths of synthetics with none of the weaknesses whilst retaining the strengths of organics AND gaining exclusive advantages from their ascension paths.
To be fair, I'm talking strictly about how going full synthetic is better than staying as cyborgs. You can't take the evolutionary or psionic paths if you've already taken 'The Flesh is Weak' so I haven't been counting the bonuses they provide. Going psionic and building synths is probably the best ascension path now that spiritualistic pops are slightly less pissy about robots. Evolutionary ascension is still 'Do you want to do a ton of micromanagement for your bonuses? No? Fuck you' however, which is why I never pick it unless I have to.
Imo all traits, organic and inorganic need great exaggerations to give them all greater feels in mechanical playstyles.
I fully agree with you on this point. Some of the stuff teased by the Devs definitely goes in the right direction for the next patch but I'm still not 100% certain it's enough. I've tried modding in my own traits/civics/whatever before but gave up in frustration. It's not super difficult, but documentation is sparse and I had troubles getting everything to work properly.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 19, 2018, 02:38:31 pm
Meanwhile, compared to genetic ascension, synths are just really good and really painless. On paper you could arrange your pops to be competitive with synths. Give them a bunch of amazing traits, IIRC they'll end up better in research in one category worse in the other two. You could also eventually modify your pops to be able to be fully productive on all worlds, or modify your worlds to all be Gaia or all be the same. Synth is just quicker and more effortless however.
So its an easy argument that synths are worse leaders than psi, and a harder but doable argument that they're worse pops than genetic. But you get this big spike when all your pops turn synth, you get better leaders AND pops, and on top of that your midway ascension perk gives very good benefits (in comparison to say the first psi perk which is mediocre and takes a long time to pay off).
What I would say about the synth path isn't that its underpowered, its that its kind of... lame. For reference:
1. Synth pops lack all character whatsoever. Ordinary robots can at least be customized within small variations. My ascension synths are EXACTLY THE SAME as your ascension synths. So ascending replaces your custom race with something that has less personality.
2. The cybernetic path has a weirdly high number of advantages versus synth perks. In particular, unless they fixed this, cyborg admirals get an amazing fleet leader trait comparable to the psi one. When you go synth, that trait gets replaced by a worse version that's clearly inferior to the psi path trait. It doesn't kill game balance, its just like... why? If you're playing normally you can't finish an ascension path until the game is halfway to being decided anyway. So... why nerf anything about synths compared to cyborgs? Also, cyborgs seem too effective compared to other 1st level ascension perks; the first level psi perk barely does anything and the first level gene perk does little you couldn't do with normal tech and patience.
3. I'm just not feeling the flavor to be honest? I know there's a sort of new tech crowd that views the singularity as almost a religion, but to me, uploading my body into a robot is just kind of... pedestrian. Like cool I'm in a robot now, um, why did I do this again? Whereas gene modding and psychic powers to me feel like more fleshed out sci-fi ideas. I guess the best way I could put it is, what's interesting about synth ascension that I couldn't get by starting with a robot civilization? Nothing. At least psionics and genemodding leave evidence of your races' past history. Synth might as well have started out as robots. I will admit that its a cool moment when an AI civ goes robot, but it doesn't feel like a cool moment when I do it.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 19, 2018, 02:42:29 pm
In particular, unless they fixed this, cyborg admirals get an amazing fleet leader trait comparable to the psi one. When you go synth, that trait gets replaced by a worse version that's clearly inferior to the psi path trait.
They fixed that several patches ago. Basically they got the effects swapped around, so the synths have the amazing trait (though not as good as psionic) and cyborgs the lesser version of it.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 19, 2018, 03:31:47 pm
Synths effectively get, compared to nothing, +40%, for their pops. +20% from Synths, +10% from the robotrait, +5% from synth ruler bonus and +5% from artificial thought patterns.
Psi get, in research, +10% from intelligent, +10% from Psi, and +15% in one category (per world presumably) for Natural X. Psi also get +10% research speed vs Synths +5% speed. Unless you're in a situation where the research speed bonus is worth double it's equivalent in raw research (and I'm way too out of practice with math to try to figure out when that is, so someone else is going to have to find that break point :P. However I think in general it'd be quite hard to reach that point.) Don't Synths have better research?
Genetic ascension (Erudite+Natural X) and Cybernetic (Intelligent+Ruler Bonus and ATP+Natural X) are both the same as Psi, except without the scientist bonus that can hope to make up the difference.
In minerals Synths also get +40%. Genetic seem to have it the best off other then that, with Industrious(15)+VeryStrong(10)+Nervestapled(10) for a total of +35% AND if you take Syncretic Species or find and uplift a Proles species you'll have a total of +45%, so you're actually slightly beating out Synths at that point. You'll have 5% more minerals, but a lot less research.
So, am I missing something? Because outside of proles or taking syncretic, synth pops seem better in every way unless you either mix the paths (which seems hard to do quickly and efficiently) or, as people have suggested, the Psi ascension path and just building synths, but if synth pops are better in every way, this is only ideal if you find a way to turn your whole empire into synths with psionic researcher leaders. Which also seems hard to do quickly and efficiently. In fact, it seems easier to go the other way around, to go synth ascension and then take over or let migrate into your lands Psi species to try to get researchers (and shroud tech) out of!
And that really seems to be the actual power of the synth ascension path. Synth pops are great! But Organic pops grow a lot faster. And the path lets you turn your organic pops into superior synth pops. It doesn't even disable the ability to use organic growth speed into synth populations once you get it, since with migration treaties you can restock your empire with organics, spread them around, and then assimilate them.
Then again, for all I know, I could be missing a lot of bonuses, looking though this all this I found there's a lot of little bonuses that are hard to keep track of (Cyborgs get robot bonuses? Okay game. Also I wasn't able to test for myself if Synths get slave bonuses when enslaved, searching online made it seem like the answer was "yes" but I have no idea if that's accurate or up to date.) so I made this post with some level of trepidation that there's some +10% "non robot" bonus that's slipped my mind and totally rejiggers all the numbers.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 19, 2018, 05:07:23 pm
Energy is definitely not meaningless. Late-game fleets take up a ton of energy maintenance and I've felt the crunch plenty of times before. At the very least, more energy production means less tiles spent producing energy and more on stuff you really want.Meaningless in the sense that it's very hard to not have a complete and total glut of energy surplus, even without a dyson sphere. Late-game you've got even less energy concerns, from repeatable tech & federation fleets having no maintenance
As a organic empire I've never really experienced the 'leaders never die' thing but you're probably right on that point. I see your point on habitability too. While unity is impossible not to accumulate, having the bonus is nice for filling out the rest of your traditions while still expanding aggressively. Unless you really prioritize it in the early game or play tall it helps into the late game.I think most states are fine unity-wise, with late-game unity being a major problem in its uselessness. You can't mix or reset ascension perks, or spend your unity in any other meaningful way. Even aggressive expanders can greatly increase their unity with domination and expansion traditions, it's pretty hard not to snowball unity unless you are RPing a super-slaver Empire. Also yeah, leaders die every century or so, so much so that it's pretty hard to notice their loss - especially when the life extension tech comes into being. As there's not much else to spend society research points late game, they become practically immortal
Consuming organic food is strictly worse to consuming energy. Unless I'm missing something Paradise Gardens/Domes only provide 4 food which is definitely not enough to feed an entire planet, let alone an empire. So organic empires still have to waste tiles on inefficient farms to feed their pops.Hydroponics lvl IV feed 1 organic pop for 0.5 energy, Power plant lvl IV feed 1 synthetic pop for 1 energy. Paradise domes are incomparably good, because at base they feed 1 organic pop for 0.5 energy, but the additional 2 unity and the +5% happiness makes it so that they increase the productivity of the entire planet and more than pay themselves off!
That's also not if you factor in technology & the tiles themselves - not all tiles are equal. Barring the odd planet of +3 food on a tile or other modifications, most will have at least 1 tile with 2 food. Paradise dome will then give 6 food, 2 unity and +5% happiness. The happiness will increase the productivity of the entire planet, paying itself well off and beyond its 2 energy cost (moving you towards the holy grail of +20% productivity in everything from happiness). Then you've got to factor in nutrient replication giving +15% food as a T3 tech, of which there is no energy equivalent, or of the nutrient replication tech using cheap soc points in the late game, you start off with hydroponics and paradise domes being more efficient at supplying organics than power plants synthetics and end up with even better efficiency - without factoring in slaves, agrarian pops or the like.
Food accelerating growth is also far less powerful than you think it is. Synths have fixed build times (reduced by roughly a quarter thanks to Synthetic Evolution). Organic pops have growth times that scale exponentially with the number of pops on a planet. Under optimal circumstances organic pops can grow faster than synthetic ones but optimal circumstances are definitely not realistic in a game. Besides having 100% habitability on all planets with growing pops, you need to maintain a food surplus of 20+ per growing pop. That's a massive waste of resources for such a minor bonus. Realistically a synth pop is going to grow faster than an organic one unless there's less than 5 pops on the planet already.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Couple that with DLC and habitats? Sheeeit, 100% base habitability size 12, spam them on every orbital facility? You populate a whole ringworld in the time it takes to migrate the first generation
To be fair, I'm talking strictly about how going full synthetic is better than staying as cyborgs. You can't take the evolutionary or psionic paths if you've already taken 'The Flesh is Weak' so I haven't been counting the bonuses they provide. Going psionic and building synths is probably the best ascension path now that spiritualistic pops are slightly less pissy about robots. Evolutionary ascension is still 'Do you want to do a ton of micromanagement for your bonuses? No? Fuck you' however, which is why I never pick it unless I have to.Evolutionary imo is one of the most powerful still (and not just because it's one of only three, it is standalone, very powerful), and its micromanaging is a lot easier if you create specialized planets & have an authoritarian ethos. Basically gives you as the player maximum control over every pop and maximum optimization over everything, even better if you emigrate some of your pops to psionics and get psionic pops that way through the shroud event. Also you can nerve staple all your foes lmao
I fully agree with you on this point. Some of the stuff teased by the Devs definitely goes in the right direction for the next patch but I'm still not 100% certain it's enough. I've tried modding in my own traits/civics/whatever before but gave up in frustration. It's not super difficult, but documentation is sparse and I had troubles getting everything to work properly.There are some good mods on steam that do this stuff as well, though I don't use them so I can't be more helpful :[
Post by: Criptfeind on January 19, 2018, 05:31:59 pm
Hydroponics lvl IV feed 1 organic pop for 0.5 energy, Power plant lvl IV feed 1 synthetic pop for 1 energy. Paradise domes are incomparably good, because at base they feed 1 organic pop for 0.5 energy, but the additional 2 unity and the +5% happiness makes it so that they increase the productivity of the entire planet and more than pay themselves off!
I agree with the general thrust of the argument that food is relatively unimportant, but this seems to be super ignoring the opportunity cost of the hydroponic farm. A better comparison is 5 organic pop for 7.5 energy because if it wasn't a farm it could be a power plant. Which is less efficient then the 5 for 5 that synths get. You then need a +50% bonus to food production that isn't mirrored in energy, which nutrient replication doesn't quite level up too (in fact, the energy nexus buildings give +20%! So even if they started equal energy would be better! Ultimately you need farms to be on +3 food tiles to be worthwhile at max level. Not impossible certainly, but not easy!) All that and as you yourself say, late game you can often end up with a LOT of energy, which makes this comparison tip even further towards energy, since this acts as an efficient dump for it. Gardens are good for sure. Although, as you also say, the unity eventually ends up useless! At which point you have to question if the happiness is worth it. I think the answer is generally going to be on some planets and set ups yes and some no.
I hope they eventually add more late game uses for unity. I recently played a mod (forgot the name, but it's fairly popular afaik so probably you guys know it already) that added late game buildings that gave a ton of science but had huge unity upkeep costs. To the point where it wasn't possible to put one on each planet. It stuck me as a really good idea and use for late game unity. Just, big things in the late game that constantly drain it.
The current planet crackers might be an example of an area where this could be applied. Maybe instead of a hard limit of 1, they cost somewhere between 300-500 unity per month to upkeep? After all, keeping up the literal ability to destroy a planet seems like it should be somewhat decisive and worthy of constant evaluation.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on January 19, 2018, 05:36:10 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 19, 2018, 06:18:32 pm
Synths give you a big power spike when you convert all your pops, but they make it somewhat difficult to expand your pops. They also hurt you in the habitat game simply because the minerals you spend on robots could also be spent on habitats.
The perspective I'm coming from is someone who plays single player and notices that most games get "resolved" early on when a couple obvious super powers emerge and start snowballing. So as the perk path with the more powerful 1st level perk, and the more "front loaded" 2nd level perk, I would argue that synths are better, since they more rapidly get you to that point where no one can match you and you snowball easily. As long as you have a good chunk of the galaxy already fully populated by the time you ascend, the awkwardness of building robots isn't going to put you back as much as the huge production boosts and the conversion of your existing leaders into immortals. Maybe MP works differently than SP and games go long, I dunno.
Of course, an additional component of my perspective is that I don't play the game one-planet because I think that's an exploit and I might as well learn to play without it because its probably going to get patched. So I tend to expand out over the course of the entire game. So to someone who plays one planet, pop growth speed is very important, they have few existing pops that they need to modify and a lot of research points with which to do it. And of course, they get to that magic 4th ascension perk way way way faster than a more conventional strat would. But playing more normally, by the time you'll have a 4th ascension perk you have a lot of pops, so that power spike you get from converting all your weak organic flesh into ultraproductive synths is more pronounced.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 19, 2018, 06:57:36 pm
I agree with the general thrust of the argument that food is relatively unimportant, but this seems to be super ignoring the opportunity cost of the hydroponic farm. A better comparison is 5 organic pop for 7.5 energy because if it wasn't a farm it could be a power plant.That opportunity is lost if the power plant built in the stead of farm to support a synthetic population; the farm supported more pops for less energy cost whilst providing the additional growth benefit, coupled with the efficiency lost in synthetics being unable to use any food bonus tiles. 2 food tiles are ubiquitous; if you must use it for energy or for food, you would as an organic rather use it for food. The power plant lvl IV with maximum building efficiency (so energy nexus & stock exchange) would yield 5 x 1.3 energy, or 6.5 energy. In a purely synthetic state this would mean two such tiles would provide for 13 synthetics. An organic state however would be able to use that food, and thus with hydroponics lvl IV and an agrarian pop with nutrient replication would yield (5 + 2) x 1.3, or 9.1, meaning two such tiles would provide for 18.2 organics, at the cost of 5 energy - which is just under the difference between what agrarian farms & power plants can support in their respective populations.
But if you go for the pathways available to organics with access to slavery or harvest, things get a little spicier. In the previous example, food production is more efficient, but the resources gained in the competitive advantage are offset by the energy cost, if you for the sake of heuristics ignore the effect on population growth gained by the expenditure of potential energy.
An agrarian slave working on a lvl IV hydroponics farm with the slave processing facility & nutrient replicators on a 2 food tile makes 7 + 50% or 10.5 food per tile. This would be equal to a synthetic Empire utilizing maximum efficiency power plants on a 2 energy tile, but for the organic state - the organic state is capable of utilizing the maximum efficiency of both food & energy tiles, an option unavailable to purely synthetic ones. This is why the opportunity cost is not comparable, because the opportunity is unavailable to the purely synthetic state.
While planetary modifiers affect this about equally (with hazardous weather being just slightly inferior in causing -5% happiness alongside +20% energy gain, whilst lush causes only positive effects with +10% habitability & +20% food), there is the one notable modifier of titanic lifeforms being harvested available - which provides +100% food to the planet. This modifier is broken, there is no reason not to take it (unless it's really early game and you can't defend your planet against titanic lifeforms. Or perhaps you want them working for you). There is no comparable modifier for energy.
Not to be understated is the paradise dome's +5% happiness. +2.5% bonus to every resource production will easily overcome any gain from having built a power plant instead.
Processing as livestock is notable for being hilarious, but it's more of a novelty than a useful strategy.
Tl;dr; it always comes back to the problem that organic states can use all the advantages of synthetics alongside all the advantages of organics, whilst synthetics cannot. The addition of machine worlds to the roster of synthetics has given them more purpose to exist, but imo synthetics still need more exclusive bonuses to justify becoming them, instead of just using them or starting as them.
All that and as you yourself say, late game you can often end up with a LOT of energy, which makes this comparison tip even further towards energy, since this acts as an efficient dump for it. Gardens are good for sure. Although, as you also say, the unity eventually ends up useless! At which point you have to question if the happiness is worth it. I think the answer is generally going to be on some planets and set ups yes and some no.The happiness is always worth it, there is never an instance where you do not want every single one of your pops to be at 100% happiness, because they'll be drifting towards your ethics and giving +20% to every single resource production. The answer is to every planet: Yes, absolutely it is worth it. As for energy dumping, it's much better to dump that into more fleets than pops
I hope they eventually add more late game uses for unity. I recently played a mod (forgot the name, but it's fairly popular afaik so probably you guys know it already) that added late game buildings that gave a ton of science but had huge unity upkeep costs. To the point where it wasn't possible to put one on each planet. It stuck me as a really good idea and use for late game unity. Just, big things in the late game that constantly drain it.Also the addition of capital ships which cost unity to maintain in the more ships mod. Having unity be like that is just a great idea
The current planet crackers might be an example of an area where this could be applied. Maybe instead of a hard limit of 1, they cost somewhere between 300-500 unity per month to upkeep? After all, keeping up the literal ability to destroy a planet seems like it should be somewhat decisive and worthy of constant evaluation.Would probably also be cool then if you could get into negative unity, instead of just 0 unity, indicating the appearance of disunity within your Empire
This kind of reminds me of the various dominions balance arguments. My guess is that different sides of this argument are playing with different galaxy size and civ density options.I'd say Synths are pretty good for populating habitats though once your industrial base can accommodate the building costs. Delicious research and energy production synergies with synths pretty good
Synths give you a big power spike when you convert all your pops, but they make it somewhat difficult to expand your pops. They also hurt you in the habitat game simply because the minerals you spend on robots could also be spent on habitats.
The perspective I'm coming from is someone who plays single player and notices that most games get "resolved" early on when a couple obvious super powers emerge and start snowballing. So as the perk path with the more powerful 1st level perk, and the more "front loaded" 2nd level perk, I would argue that synths are better, since they more rapidly get you to that point where no one can match you and you snowball easily. As long as you have a good chunk of the galaxy already fully populated by the time you ascend, the awkwardness of building robots isn't going to put you back as much as the huge production boosts and the conversion of your existing leaders into immortals. Maybe MP works differently than SP and games go long, I dunno.The first psionic perk makes all of your pops give +5% research, access to the psionic leaders & the shroud, the first biological perk gives you +2 trait points and cuts modification costs, with both costing you cheap society points instead of valuable engineering ones. Both of these offer better than +20% habitability from cybernetic and offer better long term research options, with the added benefit of not wiping out all your species specializations, and with psionic especial mention must be given that there no need to establish hegemony early on. Thus for example if you reach the point where building robot pops is not a hassle, you're already at the point where no one can stop you, and the ascension perk can be better spent on the late-game focused perks. If you have not, then psionic & biological offer the mechanics needed to maximize research; especially with whisperers in the void, or the option to call the apocalypse, double your everything & make bid for hegemony/watch the end kill your enemies.
Of course, an additional component of my perspective is that I don't play the game one-planet because I think that's an exploit and I might as well learn to play without it because its probably going to get patched. So I tend to expand out over the course of the entire game. So to someone who plays one planet, pop growth speed is very important, they have few existing pops that they need to modify and a lot of research points with which to do it. And of course, they get to that magic 4th ascension perk way way way faster than a more conventional strat would. But playing more normally, by the time you'll have a 4th ascension perk you have a lot of pops, so that power spike you get from converting all your weak organic flesh into ultraproductive synths is more pronounced.Playing normally, one should not run into any trouble getting to the 4th ascension perk by prioritizing all the unity increasing traditions in the right order, relative to your expansion. One planet is wonky as hell, and actually decreases in efficiency compared to a core-sector strategy when you start getting T3 & T4 research, and a one system strategy is mostly just viable for Sol because it has Mars and lots of Habitat space to build additional research labs, but I think that's another issue entirely lol
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 19, 2018, 07:00:49 pm
So apparently the Stellaris wiki, which I have been referencing constantly throughout all of this, is horrendously out of date. Like, several major patches out of date in some sections. So yeah. I am throwing my hands up in disgust and frustration and leaving this shit where it lies.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 19, 2018, 07:06:45 pm
...Could be worse. Could be the EU4 wiki
So apparently the Stellaris wiki, which I have been referencing constantly throughout all of this, is horrendously out of date. Like, several major patches out of date in some sections. So yeah. I am throwing my hands up in disgust and frustration and leaving this shit where it lies.
Post by: E. Albright on January 19, 2018, 07:40:12 pm
I hope they eventually add more late game uses for unity.
One of the Dev Diaries made passing mention of additional uses to come, and the last one ended with a line saying the next one would be discussing "Unity Ambitions".
Post by: Criptfeind on January 19, 2018, 08:58:51 pm
That opportunity is lost if the power plant built in the stead of farm to support a synthetic population; the farm supported more pops for less energy cost whilst providing the additional growth benefit, coupled with the efficiency lost in synthetics being unable to use any food bonus tiles. 2 food tiles are ubiquitous; if you must use it for energy or for food, you would as an organic rather use it for food. The power plant lvl IV with maximum building efficiency (so energy nexus & stock exchange) would yield 5 x 1.3 energy, or 6.5 energy. In a purely synthetic state this would mean two such tiles would provide for 13 synthetics. An organic state however would be able to use that food, and thus with hydroponics lvl IV and an agrarian pop with nutrient replication would yield (5 + 2) x 1.3, or 9.1, meaning two such tiles would provide for 18.2 organics, at the cost of 5 energy - which is just under the difference between what agrarian farms & power plants can support in their respective populations.
Whoh, hold on here, so you've got an agrarian pop, so it's only fair that the power plant is manned by a Superconductive robot. So your three energy plants on theoretical 2 food tiles produce 15x1.4=21 energy, or feeding 18.2 people with 2.8 energy left over. Two farms and an power plant to pay for them produce 18.2 food and an excess 2 energy. So, yeah, the food tiles still need to be 3 food to be worth it.
So, adding in all the bonuses, which for food means slavery bonuses, you get an extra +40% for slavery to my knowledge. So you'd get 7x1.7=11.9 food per tile, and it's only reasonable to add an extra +35% to the energy production of the power plant (Psi, Synth Governor, and Happiness). So you're making with 3 tiles enough food for 23.8 organics and an excess of 3.75 energy. Synths on the other hand get and additional +30% from synths+robot bonuses. +5% from the governor, once you've got 80% happiness or higher (easily done) your synths are making 15x1.85=27.75 energy in the same space. Enough for 23.8 robots an an excess of 3.95 energy. More efficient, even assuming 100% happy organics and less then 100% happy robots (fair assumption since Religions faction is easier to make happier I feel.)
Of course, in the course of looking up information for this I found that robots don't actually have a 1 energy upkeep like the wiki claims. The biggest deal is of course with the flesh is weak their upkeep is reduced by 20%.... Also in the game I was looking at for my numbers I have the Mechanist civic for an extra -5% (bad civic probably, but I was roleplaying) and their upkeep is .66 energy... Those numbers don't add up at all, so I have no idea how much energy upkeep robots have, but if you're going pure robots it's fair to say it's .8 or less.... That said, the same could be the case for organics and food, idk. I have another save where I have 304 organics eating 293 food. Wtf? All the calculations seem a little shaky.
If you got titanic life giving Titanic bonuses, I guess fair enough. You hit the titanic organic jackpot and you'd better make that a massive food planet!
The happiness is always worth it, there is never an instance where you do not want every single one of your pops to be at 100% happiness, because they'll be drifting towards your ethics and giving +20% to every single resource production. The answer is to every planet: Yes, absolutely it is worth it.
I just meant in cases where your happiness on a particular planet is over 100%. No point in 105% happiness! Also like, in general, on smaller planets, especially habitats, I'm not sure it's strictly true that you always want the 5% more then more production. Take the habitat when you've already maxed out your unity spending, is +2.5% production worth 8.3% of the surface area of the installation?
The first psionic perk makes all of your pops give +5% research, access to the psionic leaders & the shroud, the first biological perk gives you +2 trait points and cuts modification costs, with both costing you cheap society points instead of valuable engineering ones. Both of these offer better than +20% habitability from cybernetic and offer better long term research options, with the added benefit of not wiping out all your species specializations
It's not immediately obvious, but cybernetics gives an immediate +5% production bonus on all resources to all your pops from synthetic thought patterns, since they now count as robots. The habitability is... Well, it heavily depends on some factors to see if it's useful. If it's actually utilized it's +7ish% (the numbers get so small from habitability reducing production that they end up loosing significant portions in rounding) more production. But it'll range from 0% (homeworld) to like 2%(if you've got high habitability planets) to that 7%. It's not big, but it's not nothing.
The engineering research is an absolute killer though. I have to imagine that two otherwise equal empires, one goes cybernetic, the other goes psionic. The psionic one should realize that their rivals just spent upwards of several years of research to achieve a series of bonuses they got for free, and that they are now in an excellent position to beat their mechanical rivals in a war.
Post by: PTTG?? on January 19, 2018, 10:55:46 pm
Specifically, the way that space combat works is so bad as to suggest that it is the result of deliberate sabotage by a disgruntled developer.
I tried to blockade an enemy homeworld with no defenses other than its spaceport. My early-game fleet of 800 strength was in place. A single corvette was built and started heading out of system.
My fleet saw it, moved forward, vaporized it in a shot, and then just kept on going and started attacking the enemy spaceport, and was erased.
Is there a game designer in sweden or wherever Paradox is leaning back with a satisfied grin, thinking to him- or her- self, "that's some innovative game design right there?"
Post by: ZeroGravitas on January 19, 2018, 11:01:45 pm
The engineering research is an absolute killer though. I have to imagine that two otherwise equal empires, one goes cybernetic, the other goes psionic. The psionic one should realize that their rivals just spent upwards of several years of research to achieve a series of bonuses they got for free, and that they are now in an excellent position to beat their mechanical rivals in a war.
Except the premise of "two otherwise equal empires" is ridiculous, which is why I find this entire discussion so tedious.
The only thing that matters in Stellaris is mass. More fleet cap and more energy for more bigger fleets. Bigger fleet generally wins, with some allowance for major technological or outfitting advantages. All this arguing about who's got 10% more engineering research is beyond silly.
Maybe some of this will change in 2.0, but I doubt it.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on January 19, 2018, 11:02:07 pm
Post by: Sirus on January 19, 2018, 11:06:13 pm
I wonder if anyone at Paradox has ever actually tried to play Stellaris.I'm not sure what you were trying to do, there. You can't blockade a system in any meaningful sense. You can blockade planets by bombarding them, but to do that you need to destroy the enemy space port. And space ports are a pretty decent match for a 800 strength early-game fleet. I wouldn't take one on with less than 1k, and even then I'm bound to lose some ships.
Specifically, the way that space combat works is so bad as to suggest that it is the result of deliberate sabotage by a disgruntled developer.
I tried to blockade an enemy homeworld with no defenses other than its spaceport. My early-game fleet of 800 strength was in place. A single corvette was built and started heading out of system.
My fleet saw it, moved forward, vaporized it in a shot, and then just kept on going and started attacking the enemy spaceport, and was erased.
Is there a game designer in sweden or wherever Paradox is leaning back with a satisfied grin, thinking to him- or her- self, "that's some innovative game design right there?"
Why didn't you retreat? Yes, the "blockade" would have ended, but you'd at least save some ships. Space ports are tough and relatively well-armed, but they can't "erase" a fleet that quickly.
Post by: Cruxador on January 19, 2018, 11:47:02 pm
I wonder if anyone at Paradox has ever actually tried to play Stellaris.You can set your fleet to not do that.
Specifically, the way that space combat works is so bad as to suggest that it is the result of deliberate sabotage by a disgruntled developer.
I tried to blockade an enemy homeworld with no defenses other than its spaceport. My early-game fleet of 800 strength was in place. A single corvette was built and started heading out of system.
My fleet saw it, moved forward, vaporized it in a shot, and then just kept on going and started attacking the enemy spaceport, and was erased.
Is there a game designer in sweden or wherever Paradox is leaning back with a satisfied grin, thinking to him- or her- self, "that's some innovative game design right there?"
Post by: PTTG?? on January 20, 2018, 01:05:07 am
As for why I didn't retreat, that's because by the time I could, all my units were dead.
Post by: Shadowlord on January 20, 2018, 10:14:37 am
Post by: Dunamisdeos on January 20, 2018, 03:11:46 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 25, 2018, 12:57:33 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on January 25, 2018, 02:48:21 pm
DLC and Update date confirmed as Feb 22ndOh, nice! I was expecting it to be March or early April.
well, you can expect the patch that will fix the bugs and obvious exploits to be in march or early april :)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on January 25, 2018, 05:02:44 pm
A pretty great trailer, if I say so myself.
Post by: Cruxador on January 25, 2018, 06:17:03 pm
Stellaris Apocalypse Story Trailer. (https://youtube.com/watch?v=zW3YB2ptGws)It's cute. But it's not really meaningful if we've already heard about it. Kind of teased three dimensional ship formations but that's more likely an aesthetic thing for the video alone.
A pretty great trailer, if I say so myself.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 25, 2018, 07:56:01 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on January 25, 2018, 08:36:55 pm
every
single
planet.
Obviously starting with enemy planets, of course, but eventually coming back around and cleaning up my homeworlds when I finish with them.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 25, 2018, 08:59:31 pm
Top henchman: Yes, we've destroyed every planet outside our homeworld! Now we have broken the cycle of life and death, and no rival life forms could ever develop!
You: Yeah, that's... that's why we were doing this.
*huge shadow slowly moves over the landscape*
Post by: LoSboccacc on January 26, 2018, 04:34:17 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 26, 2018, 06:18:29 am
are them gonna fix weird combat bonuses in the patch?What weird combat bonuses?
Post by: LoSboccacc on January 26, 2018, 07:00:59 am
Post by: Culise on January 26, 2018, 07:32:54 am
the force disparity combat bonusThat's being newly-implemented in the patch, so I suppose the question then shifts to what you mean by "fix". We don't really know precisely where the final balance pass is going to leave it yet. I suppose it won't be fixed in the sense that it'll probably be alterable in the defines or other common files, but that's just a guess. It might also be fixed in the sense that it won't change in-game as a consequence of technology or other empire bonuses, except insofar as those alter the combat power of ships and fleets; if the aforementioned defines do contain it, the only way to alter it will be via mod, and if not, it will be completely fixed. On the other hand, it also won't be fixed in the sense of being repaired in this patch since it's not yet in the game to be broken, and since it's not out yet, we don't even know how badly or, indeed, even if it will be broken coming out of the gate. It feels like a kludge to me, but it might still be a working kludge.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 26, 2018, 07:50:48 am
the force disparity combat bonusThat isn't currently implemented. It will be added in the 2.0 patch soon. As Culise says, not sure what you mean by fix? This mechanic is supposed to be a fix for the current problem of force larger fleets taking almost no casualties in combat with smaller fleets. The smaller fleet will still lose with this bonus, it will just be able to cause some casualties.
The 'bonus' is just a slight rate of fire boost to represent a target rich environment when a smaller force is in combat with a larger one. It's probably the smallest part of the combat changes coming up.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on January 26, 2018, 12:39:28 pm
Just having smaller fleets being more viable against larger ones to the point of no longer being literal suicide charge and making the game less about having a bigger doomstack seems like it could really help.
I still wish they could have found a less... gamey way to accomplish if, but the disparity bonus seems like itll be a net boon to the game.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on January 26, 2018, 01:24:55 pm
I'm highly interested in anything that moves us on from the current doomstack situation.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 26, 2018, 02:03:57 pm
Im warming up to that change, personally.The force disparity change is just one alteration. There are now maximum fleet sizes which means you have to make multiple fleets and more than a single admiral. There are ship disengagements on critical damage now, where ships will sometimes disengage from combat rather than be destroyed meaning it won't always come down to one all-or-nothing battle and ships will be able to limp away for repair more often. There is war weariness that mounts on losses, which could cause a larger aggressor to halt a war due to the civil and economic penalties before he has achieved total victory. A lot of alteration is going into the 2.0 update to counteract the doomstack problem and some other problems.
Just having smaller fleets being more viable against larger ones to the point of no longer being literal suicide charge and making the game less about having a bigger doomstack seems like it could really help.
I still wish they could have found a less... gamey way to accomplish if, but the disparity bonus seems like itll be a net boon to the game.
Is it solely a rate-of-fire boost? Why not just an accuracy boost, if meant to represent a target-rich environment?Either one would accomplish the same thing. More bullets or more accurate bullets both result in more damage done. Some weapons in stellaris are perfectly accurate though, so you can't boost their accuracy beyond 100% thus more rate of fire is the answer.
I'm highly interested in anything that moves us on from the current doomstack situation.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on January 26, 2018, 02:12:02 pm
I'm still in favor of that change, though. I wonder if say, two people have 100k fleets, and one guy breaks his up into 10x 10k fleets, would it be a significant bonus?
Post by: ZeroGravitas on January 26, 2018, 02:13:34 pm
Is it solely a rate-of-fire boost? Why not just an accuracy boost, if meant to represent a target-rich environment?
I'm highly interested in anything that moves us on from the current doomstack situation.
oh my god this topic was done to death pages ago
1. it's just rate of fire, because ROF scales up no matter what while accuracy doesn't (once you hit all your shots, more accuracy doesn't do anything)
2. it doesn't affect doomstacks at all, because the bonus isn't going to ever mean your doomstack will lose a fight it would otherwise win. and it relates to the total combat size on both sides of a battle, not the size of any particular stack.
3. the point of the change is that it will... somehow... make wars of attrition slightly more viable, where relative productive capacity will matter more because the larger side will take slightly more casualties, so it will arguably be more viable to fight lots of short battles where you retreat after inflicting casualties but before your smaller is completely destroyed.
personally i think it is a bunch of bullshit that will have no real effect on the game, but we'll see what happens. too much is changing to predict anything at this point.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on January 26, 2018, 02:15:08 pm
That's logical if you want to just increase the effectiveness of small fleets vs large, but not if you want to simulate a target-rich environment.
stellaris isn't trying to simulate anything. it's just a space opera war game with hand-waving where necessary for the sake of "balance."
Quote
I'm still in favor of that change, though. I wonder if say, two people have 100k fleets, and one guy breaks his up into 10x 10k fleets, would it be a significant bonus?
there would be 0 bonus because it works based on total ships engaged. nothing to do with individual fleet sizes at all.
Post by: Draignean on January 26, 2018, 02:16:01 pm
That's logical if you want to just increase the effectiveness of small fleets vs large, but not if you want to simulate a target-rich environment.
I'm still in favor of that change, though. I wonder if say, two people have 100k fleets, and one guy breaks his up into 10x 10k fleets, would it be a significant bonus?
Bah, that's my least favorite change of the lot. I think it's a change to fire-rate so they didn't have to do anything janky with battles containing more than 2 empires, but I think the actual number of fleets engaged is inconsequential.
I'd have greatly preferred that small fleets gained advantages in jump time and somesuch to encourage raiding, rather than a bonus to fire-rate so that they can inflict (slightly) added casualties against real fleets.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on January 26, 2018, 02:18:33 pm
I'd have greatly preferred that small fleets gained advantages in jump time and somesuch to encourage raiding,
i'm pretty sure they also did this
although static defenses will also block this now, because you have to actually transit each system in real space. if you want to get from A to B to C, you start at the hyperlane gate that goes A-B, then you have to physically cross B to get to the B-C gate. no more just popping into B and not moving while your FTL drive recharges.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 26, 2018, 02:22:33 pm
oh my god this topic was done to death pages ago
If you hate talking about stellaris so much, one wonders why you keep coming back to the one thread out of thousands on bay12 dedicated to talking about stellaris.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 26, 2018, 02:30:47 pm
That's logical if you want to just increase the effectiveness of small fleets vs large, but not if you want to simulate a target-rich environment.It uses total fleet power, so there would be no change based on number of fleets. The bonus recalculates over time too, so if you get reinforcements to bring you to parity then you lose that bonus.
I'm still in favor of that change, though. I wonder if say, two people have 100k fleets, and one guy breaks his up into 10x 10k fleets, would it be a significant bonus?
As I said, certainly it would be logical to improve accuracy but some weapons like arc emitters wouldn't get a benefit from +acc because they're already perfectly accurate. They could have just done a raw damage boost or a rate of fire boost, any of those accomplish what they wanted which was to simulate just a bit more damage being put out from the underdog. The bonus is still very minor.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on January 26, 2018, 02:31:55 pm
If you hate talking about stellaris so much, one wonders why you keep coming back to the one thread out of thousands on bay12 dedicated to talking about stellaris.
hate talking about stellaris? what are you talking about
i'm just saying the same discussion already happened, and the same misconceptions keep coming up
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 26, 2018, 02:38:38 pm
Not everyone reads every page. Be patient and correct them when they come up.If you hate talking about stellaris so much, one wonders why you keep coming back to the one thread out of thousands on bay12 dedicated to talking about stellaris.
hate talking about stellaris? what are you talking about
i'm just saying the same discussion already happened, and the same misconceptions keep coming up
Post by: Criptfeind on January 26, 2018, 02:53:01 pm
Post by: Dorsidwarf on January 26, 2018, 03:51:22 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on January 26, 2018, 10:34:06 pm
I think there's a mod kicking around somewhere which implements supply lines for fleets, which if implemented fleshed out in an actual update would be a much more interesting way to challenge the authority of a doomstack - wolfpack their supply ships and they get debuffs for "everyone is starving and there are no spare parts left"Break the supply line and ships fight weaker and weaker, and at a certain point either emergency warp away and become pirates or just go derelict as food runs out completely and the crews starve/run out of batteries.
Yeah, that'd be interesting. Might not stop the doomstack from just slowly domming each planet individually with a corps of landing soldiers, but...
Post by: Retropunch on January 27, 2018, 04:57:07 pm
I fall in and out of enjoying Stellaris, but having something like that could make it an interesting interstellar war simulator, if a bit bland as a 4x.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on January 27, 2018, 06:46:08 pm
I think there's a mod kicking around somewhere which implements supply lines for fleets, which if implemented fleshed out in an actual update would be a much more interesting way to challenge the authority of a doomstack - wolfpack their supply ships and they get debuffs for "everyone is starving and there are no spare parts left"
I've seen those, the biggest one i saw implements a slight damage-over-time effect for fleets as well as a debuff. Simulates a lack of materials for repair and difficulty supplying fleets far from home.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 27, 2018, 08:31:34 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 15, 2018, 12:42:38 pm
One of the more interesting things that caught my eye was this:
Becoming Federation President now requires an empire to own at least 10% of a Federation's total planets, OR at least half the number of planets of the largest member. Empires who do not fulfill this condition will be passed over for leadership.
Needless to say I immediately started wondering if cheesing things and becoming El Presidente for life would be worth it, by forming a Federation with nations 10 times smaller than yours. The upside is that at least one fifth of your fleets (or one third with the Entente Coordination civic) become maintenance free due to being Federation Fleets. You will always have access to these fleets since you're always El Presidente, so you don't have to worry about them vanishing or being redesigned by the AI. I wouldn't expect much fleet power or advanced technologies from the other members of your Federation if they're small enough for this to work, but they're there.
The obvious downside to such a plan is diplomacy. You have to finagle your other members into supporting your wars while ensuring that they don't grow large enough to snag the title of President from you. With the new war system I think it might be possible to do such a thing. Since your fellow members are so small they should have trouble taking planets, so you just have to focus on your own claims. Then you hit the button that goes 'Leave the borders as they are' and bam. You get all of your claims while your allies get none.
...
I'm sure there's a ton of flaws in this plan but it might be worth a shot. Just think of how many minerals and energy you'll save with your maintenance-free fleets.
Post by: Teneb on February 15, 2018, 12:49:42 pm
Post by: Paul on February 16, 2018, 11:07:50 am
For example:
You: 19 planets
9 members with 9 planets each = 81 planets
Total: 100 planets
Everyone only has 9% of total planets and less than 50% of you, therefore you're permanent president of a 10 member federation more than 5x your size.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 16, 2018, 11:17:50 am
Mind you, your scenario will totally work. I'm just not certain if it'll be worth it in the long run.
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on February 16, 2018, 11:55:29 am
Post by: Dunamisdeos on February 16, 2018, 04:36:42 pm
Just gonna park here and watch the fireworks thank you very much.
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 16, 2018, 10:17:18 pm
The problem is control and expansion. More people in your Federation means you have to get more on your side to declare war (and increases the likelihood of being dragged into wars you don't want) and makes controlling expansion and ensuring that you remain El Presidente more difficult.Not really a problem. Just make loads of one planet vassal states, grant them freedom and create your federation of one glorious president of maximum freedom. Declare war with liberation goals only, denying your federation any potential spoils (which they probably won't if you've made the vassals in the right isolated/overlapping systems), then vassalize and annex the the liberated state. Free upkeep ships ftw
Mind you, your scenario will totally work. I'm just not certain if it'll be worth it in the long run.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 16, 2018, 10:25:19 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 17, 2018, 12:00:54 pm
Post by: Baffler on February 17, 2018, 01:20:48 pm
Post by: Paul on February 17, 2018, 10:23:19 pm
Divide my numbers down and you still have the same deal.
You: 3 planets
8 members with 1 planet each = 8 planets
Total: 11 planets
Or:
You: 5 planets
8 members with 2 planets each = 16 planets
Total: 21 planets
In either case, each member is now less than 10% of the total planets and less than 50% of yours. And you are only slightly more than 2x any of their size and only a fraction of the total federation size.
Post by: Ultimuh on February 19, 2018, 09:39:16 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Dunamisdeos on February 19, 2018, 09:45:30 pm
Post by: umiman on February 19, 2018, 09:57:39 pm
I was just pointing out that you could be only a little bigger than your federation members and still get the permanent presidency, you wouldn't need to be 10x their size.Can you imagine trying to pass that off in real life?
Divide my numbers down and you still have the same deal.
You: 3 planets
8 members with 1 planet each = 8 planets
Total: 11 planets
Or:
You: 5 planets
8 members with 2 planets each = 16 planets
Total: 21 planets
In either case, each member is now less than 10% of the total planets and less than 50% of yours. And you are only slightly more than 2x any of their size and only a fraction of the total federation size.
"Hey guys, I'm just a little bit bigger than all of you so I'm going to be El Presidente for life. No rebellions okay! And make sure not to form any factions or alliances amongst yourselves!"
Hell you can barely get away with that in CK2.
Post by: StagnantSoul on February 19, 2018, 10:13:52 pm
I was just pointing out that you could be only a little bigger than your federation members and still get the permanent presidency, you wouldn't need to be 10x their size.Can you imagine trying to pass that off in real life?
Divide my numbers down and you still have the same deal.
You: 3 planets
8 members with 1 planet each = 8 planets
Total: 11 planets
Or:
You: 5 planets
8 members with 2 planets each = 16 planets
Total: 21 planets
In either case, each member is now less than 10% of the total planets and less than 50% of yours. And you are only slightly more than 2x any of their size and only a fraction of the total federation size.
"Hey guys, I'm just a little bit bigger than all of you so I'm going to be El Presidente for life. No rebellions okay! And make sure not to form any factions or alliances amongst yourselves!"
Hell you can barely get away with that in CK2.
You can manipulate the AI in CK2? Hell, all they ever say to me is this is war you tyrannical bastard.
Post by: Descan on February 20, 2018, 06:14:24 am
Is it possible to release whatever planet you want as a vassal in the current versionyes
planet view, i think
Post by: ZeroGravitas on February 20, 2018, 09:19:51 am
Is it possible to release whatever planet you want as a vassal in the current versionyes
planet view, i think
unless your resolution is too low
(jk, i think they fixed that last patch)
Post by: PTTG?? on February 20, 2018, 02:00:50 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on February 20, 2018, 07:59:36 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on February 20, 2018, 08:21:25 pm
Post by: Baffler on February 20, 2018, 08:31:53 pm
Post by: Cruxador on February 20, 2018, 11:58:41 pm
Isn't that what sectors are supposed to be?What sectors were supposed to be is irrelevant at this point; they're a half-baked idea that hasn't been followed up on adequately and which it is now easy and beneficial to never actually use.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 21, 2018, 07:58:08 am
Post by: Hanzoku on February 21, 2018, 08:50:25 am
Honestly, Stellaris punishes you for using half of the features that they're trying to force you to use because of the terrible interaction with the way too low leader caps and the half-baked systems that are currently in placed.
Take leaders for one thing - You start with 10. Three slots are automatically filled because when are you NOT going to have your three research leaders? 7 left. You need an admiral, a general, a leader for your core systems. 4 left. You want to explore, and (at least the last time I tried) you can't use science vessels without a scientist inside. Take two more for that, and you have 2 slots over for sector leadership, a second fleet, splitting your ground forces...
and yes, there are researches meant to alleviate the problem slightly, but you'll never have enough leadership capacity to put a leader in charge of all of the ~20 possible sectors in a large empire, much less trying to NOT doomstack because you don't want to feed fleets without leadership into the woodchipper.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on February 21, 2018, 11:41:37 am
They've still never learned to separate out what's actually interesting and fun about their games from what's mindless tedium and restrictions.
Post by: LoSboccacc on February 21, 2018, 11:56:35 am
scientists and governor dying every four turn *ugh*
Post by: EnigmaticHat on February 21, 2018, 05:40:53 pm
The last game I played, I made exactly three sectors.Part of the issue is that sectors run, AFAIK, the normal AI but without access to most of the game's options (like diplomacy and such) and with a very limited income. Problem is, if the normal AI is restricted to just a couple planets, it will crash and burn. Even with access to diplomacy and megastructures and being able to choose its own research and such. So how can the AI be expected to keep an empire running if all it can do is build and move pops?
Honestly, Stellaris punishes you for using half of the features that they're trying to force you to use because of the terrible interaction with the way too low leader caps and the half-baked systems that are currently in placed.
Take leaders for one thing - You start with 10. Three slots are automatically filled because when are you NOT going to have your three research leaders? 7 left. You need an admiral, a general, a leader for your core systems. 4 left. You want to explore, and (at least the last time I tried) you can't use science vessels without a scientist inside. Take two more for that, and you have 2 slots over for sector leadership, a second fleet, splitting your ground forces...
and yes, there are researches meant to alleviate the problem slightly, but you'll never have enough leadership capacity to put a leader in charge of all of the ~20 possible sectors in a large empire, much less trying to NOT doomstack because you don't want to feed fleets without leadership into the woodchipper.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 21, 2018, 06:10:54 pm
The AI just sucks. Although I'm sure as hell not a programmer, so I don't know how hard it is, but somethings clearly gone wrong when it can't even reliably run a positive economy.
Post by: Baffler on February 21, 2018, 06:20:37 pm
Post by: Hanzoku on February 22, 2018, 02:26:16 am
Post by: Ultimuh on February 22, 2018, 09:06:21 am
The excitement is real.
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 22, 2018, 09:09:20 am
Post by: Ultimuh on February 22, 2018, 11:05:20 am
I just want to be able to play as RuptureFarms (http://oddworld.wikia.com/wiki/RuptureFarms) damnit!
Ah well, maybe by the next DLC/expansion/update.. I can at least have hope, right?
Post by: Teneb on February 22, 2018, 11:31:09 am
I am a bit sad that the game still don't allow Corporate Dominions to be able to have xeno livestock.You could maybe mod it. Doesn't sound like it'd be too hard.
I just want to be able to play as RuptureFarms (http://oddworld.wikia.com/wiki/RuptureFarms) damnit!
Ah well, maybe by the next DLC/expansion/update.. I can at least have hope, right?
Post by: Ultimuh on February 22, 2018, 11:42:11 am
Yeah, I know. Maybe I should look into that.I am a bit sad that the game still don't allow Corporate Dominions to be able to have xeno livestock.You could maybe mod it. Doesn't sound like it'd be too hard.
I just want to be able to play as RuptureFarms (http://oddworld.wikia.com/wiki/RuptureFarms) damnit!
Ah well, maybe by the next DLC/expansion/update.. I can at least have hope, right?
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on February 22, 2018, 05:23:19 pm
Well, that's why my sectors were going so well. Each one had 50+ inhabited planets, which meant the AI had enough resources to upgrade buildings as soon as new technology came online. Their energy stockpiles were generally capped at ~24k each, which I would sometimes go through and raid before talking to the friendly local trade guild about their vast reserves of mineral wealth. :P
My god.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on February 22, 2018, 08:37:37 pm
Most of the other changes seem nice, although I did spawn with three Slaving Despot neighbours with identical me-hating ethics as a pacifist federation-builder. That was surprising.
Post by: Flying Dice on February 22, 2018, 09:44:59 pm
As for the cost: that's the benefit of going tall, eh? Besides, colonies are a 16% cost increase. You're not really meant to max the trees fast. I'm only a couple years in with two colonies and ~15 systems but I still have two trees and 4 nodes unlocked.
Post by: Cruxador on February 22, 2018, 10:54:27 pm
Just played some new update and.... god this "build a space station at every single place you wanna scrape resources out of / you don't wanna leave as a hole in your space" change to territory is a w f u l. Especially since every stop gives you a 2% hit to unity. Construct five stations? Your racial modifier is now cancelled out. It's just more tedious busywork in a game with too much busywork.Well that explains why my one planet inward perfection build wasn't really working.
Most of the other changes seem nice, although I did spawn with three Slaving Despot neighbours with identical me-hating ethics as a pacifist federation-builder. That was surprising.
I think it's as fun a mechanic as Stellaris ever has, though.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on February 22, 2018, 11:15:58 pm
Like, if the system was less manual or just more sparse I would prefer it, but right now it makes the early game babysit your construction ships: the game.
Post by: Flying Dice on February 23, 2018, 08:40:32 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 23, 2018, 08:50:27 am
It's also really important to grab chokepoints and crossroads, maybe moreso than grabbing resources. I was able to completely isolate one empire by snatching an important chokehold, relegating them to stagnation in a little backwater hyperlane structure. I later made them a vassal and we became good friends once I had forced them to adopt my government.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on February 23, 2018, 09:20:36 am
Do keep in mind that because military construction and territory claiming has been shifted to stations, you no longer have to spam colonies, which effectively reduces early game resource strain and makes core planet limits much less annoying.
yes, "core planet limits" are much less annoying while an entirely new mechanic has been created that generates vastly more amounts of micromanagement and annoyance.
having to individually build every starbase in every system is exactly the bullshit i thought it would be.
Post by: Radsoc on February 23, 2018, 09:51:26 am
Yes, the expansion micro is a bit annoying, but it's basically not worse than manual mining, exploration etc. If you have a good flow of influence it's just a matter of right and shift-clicking.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on February 23, 2018, 09:58:16 am
I like it and the pace is better now. Ships got more weight in some sense.
Yes, the expansion micro is a bit annoying, but it's basically not worse than manual mining, exploration etc. If you have a good flow of influence it's just a matter of right and shift-clicking.
of course it's worse - it's all the bad things of the old system plus having to do it for every system you want
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 23, 2018, 10:01:47 am
Post by: Ultimuh on February 23, 2018, 10:32:24 am
To anyone new at 2.0:
Early in the game, build as many outposts a quickly as you can. Otherwise you will end up with a lot less space fast.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 23, 2018, 10:47:53 am
So yeah. Not in the best position in my game.
Ships also seem horrendously expensive for some reason and I am honestly struggling to remain close to my fleet cap with all of the loses I've been taking. I probably need to expand more but it's still kinda disheartening to see a Corvette costing twice your monthly income.
Post by: Baffler on February 23, 2018, 12:30:56 pm
This is why I took exploration as my first tradition. -10% influence cost might not sound like much but it definitely adds up over the long run. I managed to block off an enemy empire from expanding 'north', leaving me a vast hinterland to occupy. A hinterland filled with Mauraders and Fanatical Purifiers.
So yeah. Not in the best position in my game.
Ships also seem horrendously expensive for some reason and I am honestly struggling to remain close to my fleet cap with all of the loses I've been taking. I probably need to expand more but it's still kinda disheartening to see a Corvette costing twice your monthly income.
I've noticed that too. Mineral income seems to grow faster than ship mineral cost, but I'm still 50 years into one game and finding my monthly income at around 120 while a modern corvette costs 150 to build, and I'm getting a discount from my ruler. It seems like an attempt to slow the pace of the game down.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on February 23, 2018, 12:56:01 pm
This is why I took exploration as my first tradition. -10% influence cost might not sound like much but it definitely adds up over the long run. I managed to block off an enemy empire from expanding 'north', leaving me a vast hinterland to occupy. A hinterland filled with Mauraders and Fanatical Purifiers.
So yeah. Not in the best position in my game.
Ships also seem horrendously expensive for some reason and I am honestly struggling to remain close to my fleet cap with all of the loses I've been taking. I probably need to expand more but it's still kinda disheartening to see a Corvette costing twice your monthly income.
I've noticed that too. Mineral income seems to grow faster than ship mineral cost, but I'm still 50 years into one game and finding my monthly income at around 120 while a modern corvette costs 150 to build, and I'm getting a discount from my ruler. It seems like an attempt to slow the pace of the game down.
Yet, does not slowing the pace of the game down mean that you are still on equal footing to the AI for longer, as well as the number of AI present lasting longer, thereby keeping the entertainment lasting longer?
Post by: Cyroth on February 23, 2018, 01:03:59 pm
Do they go home after a while(or after destroying enough infrastructure), or do they stick around until you deal with them?
In my game somebody decided to sic all 4 of the mercenary clans on me. Now there are 4 fleets of about 11k strength each, circling around my empire and destryoing everything faster then I can rebuild. I have a fleet of 5k strength, which couldn't take on even a single one of them, let alone all 4, and since it is not a war my defensive allies are ignoring them.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on February 23, 2018, 01:14:23 pm
I think we'll get used to it. Especially since outposts can never be destroyed, there will be a point at which you never have to build another. That point comes quicker in smaller maps or more empires.
i mean, yeah.
Post by: Biowraith on February 23, 2018, 01:17:51 pm
Do they go home after a while(or after destroying enough infrastructure), or do they stick around until you deal with them?
The former, they'll message you to say they're done smashing your stuff now and head home (smashing stuff on the way if 'home' is on the other side of your territory like it was for me).
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 23, 2018, 01:20:51 pm
Do they go home after a while(or after destroying enough infrastructure), or do they stick around until you deal with them?
The former, they'll message you to say they're done smashing your stuff now and head home (smashing stuff on the way if 'home' is on the other side of your territory like it was for me).
Note that it might be a little bugged. I had them say they'd go home a couple times before their fleets finally stopped bombarding my poor, defenceless planet. Either way, you have to pretty much twiddle your thumbs and wait for them to eventually leave.
Post by: Flying Dice on February 23, 2018, 01:50:14 pm
KEKEKE YES STUPID DUSTEATER WE'LL GO HOMEDo they go home after a while(or after destroying enough infrastructure), or do they stick around until you deal with them?
The former, they'll message you to say they're done smashing your stuff now and head home (smashing stuff on the way if 'home' is on the other side of your territory like it was for me).
Note that it might be a little bugged. I had them say they'd go home a couple times before their fleets finally stopped bombarding my poor, defenceless planet. Either way, you have to pretty much twiddle your thumbs and wait for them to eventually leave.
*orbital strikes ensue, again*
OHOHOHO JUST KIDDING!
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 23, 2018, 02:44:09 pm
So... I'd say maybe? The problem is basically not pissing off all of your neighbours so that they gang up on you but still. Might be worth trying.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on February 23, 2018, 03:02:56 pm
I'm still in that portion of my game, eager to see how it evolves into wartime (I'm trying barbaric despoilers). Fun fact, you can't abduct primitives with the raiding stance since you can't bombard them. I'm disappointed, but I can understand how having what would essentially be a population farm early-game would be broken.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 23, 2018, 03:15:59 pm
I'm still in that portion of my game, eager to see how it evolves into wartime (I'm trying barbaric despoilers). Fun fact, you can't abduct primitives with the raiding stance since you can't bombard them. I'm disappointed, but I can understand how having what would essentially be a population farm early-game would be broken.
Primitives in what way? Pre-sentients that you can uplift? I'm only asking because I've abducted pops from a Renaissance planet as a Barbaric Despoiler just fine. The fact that they actually grow to fill out the missing pops is great. The fact that all of their species, regardless of where they are, get stellar shock once you take over their planet? Not so great.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on February 23, 2018, 05:01:22 pm
I'm still in that portion of my game, eager to see how it evolves into wartime (I'm trying barbaric despoilers). Fun fact, you can't abduct primitives with the raiding stance since you can't bombard them. I'm disappointed, but I can understand how having what would essentially be a population farm early-game would be broken.
Primitives in what way? Pre-sentients that you can uplift? I'm only asking because I've abducted pops from a Renaissance planet as a Barbaric Despoiler just fine. The fact that they actually grow to fill out the missing pops is great. The fact that all of their species, regardless of where they are, get stellar shock once you take over their planet? Not so great.
That's actually literally what I was talking about. It wouldn't let me bombard atomic age civs.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 23, 2018, 05:07:06 pm
Post by: marples on February 23, 2018, 06:48:18 pm
In other news, 2 jumps in one direction got me 'The Worm', 2 jumps in the other got ghost colony. Good times.
Post by: Teneb on February 23, 2018, 07:11:02 pm
I understand why they restricted travel to hyperlanes, it doesn't mean I have to like it.Do you mean What Was Will Be, What Will Be Was? Or the dimensional horror?
In other news, 2 jumps in one direction got me 'The Worm', 2 jumps in the other got ghost colony. Good times.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on February 23, 2018, 07:12:35 pm
Weird. Did you move your military fleets above their planet? I want to say it could be an edict/policy thing, but if you're Barbaric Despoilers... Your policies should allow it by default. Weird.
Yeah no I had some ships in orbit and everything. I'm going to chalk it up to user error and try again lol.
Glad to know that it works, though.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 23, 2018, 07:45:56 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on February 23, 2018, 07:53:30 pm
It does for this patch at least. I'm 95% convinced that Paradox is going to prevent it from happening or stop it from being so exploitable soon because it's way too strong and easy to do. The abducted pops don't even get culture shock until you invade the planet after all.
What if you blow the planet up instead? Also, can you raid a planet that you have an observation post over?
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 23, 2018, 07:56:25 pm
All you need to do to avoid the Culture Shock is not invade the planet. Blowing it up should theoretically work too, though leaving it is probably for the best. Invading just makes an event pop up which gives all pops of that species culture shock. Don't invade and you don't get the event.
Post by: Cruxador on February 23, 2018, 07:58:48 pm
Post by: Dorsidwarf on February 23, 2018, 09:07:03 pm
It's a Huge galaxy and so far I've discovered about seven Slaving Despots, two Honourable Warriors (-100 because we're cowards) and a single spiritualist empire.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on February 23, 2018, 09:09:46 pm
Well, I asked this a year ago and the answer was negative, so I might as well ask again since it seems that things have changed on this front: to what extent is it possible to play a Metroid "Space Pirate" race? Lots of conquest, genetic modification, slavery of other races, raiding others, etc.
Well there's the raiding trait you can take that allows you to bombard a planet while whisking their population away.
You can also get by real good slaving in general, and there's even more genetic modification options since a year ago.
So, sounds good to me.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 23, 2018, 09:09:58 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on February 23, 2018, 09:20:11 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on February 23, 2018, 09:59:28 pm
Also, is there any way to turn off the "auto-best" ship designs that get created whenever you get better ship tech? It's infuriating having it pollute my designs whenever I research the next level of shields or whatever.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on February 23, 2018, 10:23:31 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on February 23, 2018, 10:29:56 pm
Post by: E. Albright on February 23, 2018, 11:40:57 pm
Post by: Sirus on February 23, 2018, 11:49:49 pm
Yes at the bottom below the designs on the left hand side. Wish it could default to off...You sure it doesn't default to off? My ship designs never update unless I do it myself. I also usually just save over old designs to reduce clutter.
Post by: dennislp3 on February 24, 2018, 01:36:10 am
Post by: Cruxador on February 24, 2018, 01:43:56 am
Alright, last question- would you say that the game + DLCs is worth purchasing in its current form?Nope.
Since I don't have Apocalypse, I have to ask (fully expecting to be disappointed, mind you): can Rogue Servitors be Barbaric Despoilers?Nope.
Post by: Ultimuh on February 24, 2018, 03:39:05 am
Then sure, is is worth it. But maybe you want to wait until it is on sale.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on February 24, 2018, 04:20:35 am
In other news, I'm having mixed first impressions with actual conquering of planets.
First is
Contributing to the problem is the actual conquering of planets. For instance, I just finished waging three different wars to conquer a single planet where the AI thought putting down three strongholds would be a fun idea. Since combat width is a thing and I only had assault armies plus a few gene troopers, I had to wait ages while my indiscriminate-bombarding fleet ever-so-slowly whittled down their forces until they had few enough troops that I could send in my ground forces.
It just feels like a longer, more tedious version of the previous fortification mechanic. You still have to bombard the planet (though it's not a requirement really any more for planets w/o care given to defense, admittedly). Just instead of waiting until you whittled down fortifications, you need to wait until your bombardments kill enough units to make combat viable.
Post by: marples on February 24, 2018, 07:28:14 am
I understand why they restricted travel to hyperlanes, it doesn't mean I have to like it.Do you mean What Was Will Be, What Will Be Was? Or the dimensional horror?
In other news, 2 jumps in one direction got me 'The Worm', 2 jumps in the other got ghost colony. Good times.
What will be.. yada. I'm feeding it scientists like a candy to a fat kid. My people have grown tentacles. I'm sure that's normal.
Post by: Flying Dice on February 24, 2018, 07:41:56 am
Now that I've gotten into it, I really love the FTL changes. I was already a hyperlane-only player, but I do admit that wormholes are conceptually an interesting addition. The new implementation looks to be exactly that, they're strategic territory that you want to occupy and defend, and an excellent reason to use the combat-oriented starbase modules.
The game is skewed to spawn empires of opposite/whatever ethnics as you. Don't ask me how badly but it certainly not in your favour.Eh, I think you might have had bad RNG. I'm playing Fanatic Militarist+Materialist (to RP as one of those space opera hegemonic empires that vacuums up other species) and the single most common I've found is Militarist. Only one pacifist, two spiritualist (to one materialist), and the FE at my borders are Enigmatic Observers.
Well, I asked this a year ago and the answer was negative, so I might as well ask again since it seems that things have changed on this front: to what extent is it possible to play a Metroid "Space Pirate" race? Lots of conquest, genetic modification, slavery of other races, raiding others, etc.More so than it used to be. It's harder to gobble large chunks of empires but much easier to snap up a few planets, gene modding and slavery were already in a decent state, and we've got the ability to raid planets without capturing them and siphon resources from occupied enemy systems. From the AI side of things there are the asshole space Mongolians who go around shitting in everyone's garden blowing up space stations and bombarding planets for giggles (who are also a decent source of tech upgrades if you can kill one of their fleets).
Apocalypse is definitely on the "only if you're specifically interested in what it advertises" list in regards to Paradox DLC. Utopia is almost essential, but Apocalypse just adds some neat toys for late-game warfare.
In other news, I'm having mixed first impressions with actual conquering of planets.
First iswar score Mk.2war weariness/whatever. In theory it's fine, but it makes doing anything other than "conquer a couple planets" highly unlikely as it's impossible to keep yourwar scoreweariness from going up way too fast. By the time you've conquered one planet, you're already at 80%.
Contributing to the problem is the actual conquering of planets. For instance, I just finished waging three different wars to conquer a single planet where the AI thought putting down three strongholds would be a fun idea. Since combat width is a thing and I only had assault armies plus a few gene troopers, I had to wait ages while my indiscriminate-bombarding fleet ever-so-slowly whittled down their forces until they had few enough troops that I could send in my ground forces.
It just feels like a longer, more tedious version of the previous fortification mechanic. You still have to bombard the planet (though it's not a requirement really any more for planets w/o care given to defense, admittedly). Just instead of waiting until you whittled down fortifications, you need to wait until your bombardments kill enough units to make combat viable.
Honestly I kinda like it. It shouldn't be easy to roll over fortified planets. The two big problems Stellaris had with the strategic layer of war were the ability of fleets to totally bypass defenses and the relative ease with which planets could be taken and retaken.
Post by: JimboM12 on February 24, 2018, 08:27:55 am
the 2 default human civs are now "humanoid" rather than "mammalian"
we're mammals goddamnit! those humanoid designs don't quite mesh with how the human civs are represented.
all the more reason to descend upon the galaxy and crush all living beings under the boots of true humanity. enslave the xeno, work the heretic, purge the machine.
Post by: Flying Dice on February 24, 2018, 08:36:45 am
Post by: JimboM12 on February 24, 2018, 08:47:00 am
I sorta get it. It's meant to distinguish between "Humans + humans with forehead wrinkles or blue skin" vs"furries""space catgirls""distinctly non-human mammals like the Orions or Hani".
yeah, im over it. i made a new human civ, spiritualist+militaristic+authoritarian=shallow 40k parody. they use the mammalian sets with their nice utilitarian look. it is time to enforce true humanity's will among the stars. to differentiate between us, true humans, and them, false heretics, i made our race "terrans" instead.
all will bow, all will serve. humanity forever.
Post by: Wiles on February 24, 2018, 08:50:25 am
Marauders don't feel enjoyably implemented to me. They are more annoying than fun. I am playing a game where they spawned right beside me and it doesn't matter if they are raiding my empire or another, they always fly through my space and blow up all my shit en route to their destination. It might be more interesting if you could hire them yourself but good luck with that. If an AI empire wants to use them chances are they will contact them before you do. I have played by myself and in multiplayer and I have never once had the opportunity to hire them. I don't know if I am unlucky or if the way they were designed is that the AI empires that want to hire them instantly know when the marauders have recovered from their rest period and re-hire them.
I really like the idea of the fleet designer and dedicated shipyards that can build multiple ships. It removes a lot of the needless busywork of re-building mixed fleets. I used to build battleships exclusively because I didn't want to rebuild 20 corvettes after every space battle. It seems broken and buggy right now, but when they fix it to make it usable again I feel like it will be a great addition.
The game is more tedious than ever but somehow still manages to be fun, and for me more interesting to play than other 4X games that are out right now.
Post by: Flying Dice on February 24, 2018, 11:17:44 am
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on February 24, 2018, 11:25:40 am
I'll admit I'm still annoyed that they didn't implement proper ship classes and upgrading a fleet will just change every ship to a single class of each hull type. Unless just upgrading the same design and not copying it averts that? But then you can't see which generation the class is on, which is half the fun.
Can't use the fleet manager to set the reinforcement caps to the proportion of the new classes you desire (setting the old to 0), and the upgrade will go to those proportions from the old when you use the 'upgrade' there?
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 24, 2018, 11:33:37 am
I'll admit I'm still annoyed that they didn't implement proper ship classes and upgrading a fleet will just change every ship to a single class of each hull type. Unless just upgrading the same design and not copying it averts that? But then you can't see which generation the class is on, which is half the fun.What? You absolutely can do that... I have two different destroyer classes and 3 corvette classes and it handles them just fine.
Post by: Majestic7 on February 24, 2018, 11:46:26 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 24, 2018, 12:14:59 pm
so far it SEEMS better
Post by: marples on February 24, 2018, 01:34:45 pm
I'll admit I'm still annoyed that they didn't implement proper ship classes and upgrading a fleet will just change every ship to a single class of each hull type. Unless just upgrading the same design and not copying it averts that? But then you can't see which generation the class is on, which is half the fun.What? You absolutely can do that... I have two different destroyer classes and 3 corvette classes and it handles them just fine.
There is definitely some weirdness going on with the upgrade system. I had a mixed fleet of corvettes and after clicking the upgrade button the fleet was composed of a single type.
Post by: Sirus on February 24, 2018, 01:50:06 pm
Post by: StagnantSoul on February 24, 2018, 02:29:55 pm
Post by: JimboM12 on February 24, 2018, 03:46:46 pm
What you need to do is make sure the names are the same as what you want to upgrade to- For example, steve-class battleship and imperial-1 class battleship, you make imperial-2 and update steve, then click update, everyone's going to go to steves update most likely. Enjoy a fleet of steves.
today is a good day for humanity. i present to you our first battleship class ship, the Steve-class; AUS Crikey, named after our hero and saint.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on February 24, 2018, 04:03:23 pm
Quote from: Chiefwafflesstuff about disliking difficulty of conquering planetsHonestly I kinda like it. It shouldn't be easy to roll over fortified planets. The two big problems Stellaris had with the strategic layer of war were the ability of fleets to totally bypass defenses and the relative ease with which planets could be taken and retaken.
Independently Im mostly fine with the change to conquering planets. But my main problem is that when combined with war exhaustion it makes war as a whole an even longer more tedious slog than before.
It taking longer to take planets is one thing, but the system makes it downright impossible to wage war long enough to take more than one planet unless you have super-infantry.
Post by: Sartain on February 24, 2018, 04:26:10 pm
I think the marauders and war exhaustion need serious tweaking, but the ideas behind all the big changes are solid. Right now it is best to play without marauders and not have many wars to avoid frustration...
Looking at the war exhaustion breakdown (and various post on Steam and Paradox forums) it's not so much that war exhaustion needs tweaking as it is the fact that they missed a giant comet-sized bug that makes your wins count as defeats. I just basically beat myself into submission by blitzing the enemy and capturing several of their systems, each giving ME war exhaustion as a 'defeat' ::)
Post by: Criptfeind on February 24, 2018, 04:45:57 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 24, 2018, 05:39:02 pm
Must be a bug then. My current fleet consists of picket corvettes, swarm corvettes, artillery destroyers that hold a line, picket destroyers, and then cruisers with long range artillery and cruisers with close in weapons. They upgrade just fine and keep the separate classesI'll admit I'm still annoyed that they didn't implement proper ship classes and upgrading a fleet will just change every ship to a single class of each hull type. Unless just upgrading the same design and not copying it averts that? But then you can't see which generation the class is on, which is half the fun.What? You absolutely can do that... I have two different destroyer classes and 3 corvette classes and it handles them just fine.
There is definitely some weirdness going on with the upgrade system. I had a mixed fleet of corvettes and after clicking the upgrade button the fleet was composed of a single type.
Post by: Flying Dice on February 24, 2018, 06:43:13 pm
Must be a bug then. My current fleet consists of picket corvettes, swarm corvettes, artillery destroyers that hold a line, picket destroyers, and then cruisers with long range artillery and cruisers with close in weapons. They upgrade just fine and keep the separate classesI'll admit I'm still annoyed that they didn't implement proper ship classes and upgrading a fleet will just change every ship to a single class of each hull type. Unless just upgrading the same design and not copying it averts that? But then you can't see which generation the class is on, which is half the fun.What? You absolutely can do that... I have two different destroyer classes and 3 corvette classes and it handles them just fine.
There is definitely some weirdness going on with the upgrade system. I had a mixed fleet of corvettes and after clicking the upgrade button the fleet was composed of a single type.
Looks like it was the problem with changing names. If you've got a class called, say, "Sparrow", you upgrade and name the new iteration "Sparrow II", the game doesn't connect the dots and treats them as two different classes. So if you also have a class of the same size called "Sky Rat" and design "Sky Rat II", then upgrade all of both of the original classes, they'll just pick whichever one of the MkIIs the game deems "better" and all upgrade to that. If, on the other hand, you just modify the original designs and don't rename them or create new iterations with a series marker, they auto-upgrade as they should.
This is why the inability to select upgrade paths is dumb, and it's one of those things that shows PDX's inexperience with space 4X since that's a very common feature in games with manual ship design.
Post by: thvaz on February 24, 2018, 07:36:44 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 24, 2018, 07:53:14 pm
Pirates are so annoying right now. doesnt matter how many times you crush them, they will always return stronger. I guess that by endgame they will be spawning 50k stacks.I haven't seen one larger than around 5k and I'm about 400 years into my game. They only spawn if you have uncontrolled systems on your border, so if you build out to your neighbors then no pirates.
Post by: thvaz on February 24, 2018, 08:03:50 pm
Pirates are so annoying right now. doesnt matter how many times you crush them, they will always return stronger. I guess that by endgame they will be spawning 50k stacks.I haven't seen one larger than around 5k and I'm about 400 years into my game. They only spawn if you have uncontrolled systems on your border, so if you build out to your neighbors then no pirates.
Bad mechanic anyway. The game is forcing you to expand just to get rid of annoyances.
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 24, 2018, 08:39:36 pm
I honestly never had a problem with them myself. Are you neglecting your military? My peaceful spiritualist xenophiles had enough of a military to fight them off. Later I just put up a nice beefy defense station at a chokepoint and let the pirates hit that whenever they came in.Pirates are so annoying right now. doesnt matter how many times you crush them, they will always return stronger. I guess that by endgame they will be spawning 50k stacks.I haven't seen one larger than around 5k and I'm about 400 years into my game. They only spawn if you have uncontrolled systems on your border, so if you build out to your neighbors then no pirates.
Bad mechanic anyway. The game is forcing you to expand just to get rid of annoyances.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on February 24, 2018, 08:41:59 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on February 24, 2018, 09:11:37 pm
Post by: Teneb on February 24, 2018, 09:13:37 pm
It was a little mixed for me....One game I had a lot....but most so far have had very few for me. One game it was also swapped with the Crystal entities....they were all around me with no other space creatures... so it seems like they just spawn in clusters, which would make sense.I am not sure if it's a feature of the Leviathans dlc or patch, but space creatures other than the Space Cows spawn in clusters, yeah. There are also roaming Amoebas (in addition to stationary ones) that pursue the Tyanki.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 24, 2018, 09:16:38 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on February 24, 2018, 09:24:33 pm
.75x makes everything feel way too linear. You have to expand across basically just a line. Natiral enemoes like crystals/whatever stop expansion and exploration in their tracks because you cant go around them. That plus the longer travel time means to have have to micromanage your military and civilian ships - if your fleets can even beat the aliens - unless you want to just wait until you have enough minerals saved up to build more fleets.
Post by: thvaz on February 24, 2018, 09:41:15 pm
I honestly never had a problem with them myself. Are you neglecting your military? My peaceful spiritualist xenophiles had enough of a military to fight them off. Later I just put up a nice beefy defense station at a chokepoint and let the pirates hit that whenever they came in.Pirates are so annoying right now. doesnt matter how many times you crush them, they will always return stronger. I guess that by endgame they will be spawning 50k stacks.I haven't seen one larger than around 5k and I'm about 400 years into my game. They only spawn if you have uncontrolled systems on your border, so if you build out to your neighbors then no pirates.
Bad mechanic anyway. The game is forcing you to expand just to get rid of annoyances.
I had many fleets. The pirates were not problems, just annoyances as I said. They would destroy a couple of mining stations before I sent them to hell. It was just annoying. I don't like to have to expand continuously to get rid of them. What if you prefer to play "tall"?
Post by: Sirus on February 24, 2018, 09:58:18 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 24, 2018, 09:59:42 pm
You don't 'have to expand to get rid of them' but you do have to put up defenses, whether that is a starbase with defense platforms or a fleet stationed at the edge of your territory.I honestly never had a problem with them myself. Are you neglecting your military? My peaceful spiritualist xenophiles had enough of a military to fight them off. Later I just put up a nice beefy defense station at a chokepoint and let the pirates hit that whenever they came in.Pirates are so annoying right now. doesnt matter how many times you crush them, they will always return stronger. I guess that by endgame they will be spawning 50k stacks.I haven't seen one larger than around 5k and I'm about 400 years into my game. They only spawn if you have uncontrolled systems on your border, so if you build out to your neighbors then no pirates.
Bad mechanic anyway. The game is forcing you to expand just to get rid of annoyances.
I had many fleets. The pirates were not problems, just annoyances as I said. They would destroy a couple of mining stations before I sent them to hell. It was just annoying. I don't like to have to expand continuously to get rid of them. What if you prefer to play "tall"?
Anyway, my save bugged. In a moment I had about 100 minerals/turn (though I was struggling with energy) and in the next both wer
Post by: Cruxador on February 24, 2018, 11:35:28 pm
That wouldn't be an entirely bad mechanic, imposing order on ungoverned areas has some historical and logical backing. The real problem is that with the bonuses it gives, it's actually encouraging you to do is to leave a few systems to farm pirates.Pirates are so annoying right now. doesnt matter how many times you crush them, they will always return stronger. I guess that by endgame they will be spawning 50k stacks.I haven't seen one larger than around 5k and I'm about 400 years into my game. They only spawn if you have uncontrolled systems on your border, so if you build out to your neighbors then no pirates.
Bad mechanic anyway. The game is forcing you to expand just to get rid of annoyances.
I had many fleets. The pirates were not problems, just annoyances as I said. They would destroy a couple of mining stations before I sent them to hell. It was just annoying. I don't like to have to expand continuously to get rid of them. What if you prefer to play "tall"?"Tall" in the sense of never expanding at all is a meme playstyle that doesn't deserve support, to be honest.
Post by: lordcooper on February 25, 2018, 01:02:40 am
Spoiler: What a beautiful sight! (click to show/hide)
Post by: JimboM12 on February 25, 2018, 01:12:15 am
except for that single repressed, unhappy one
Post by: Majestic7 on February 25, 2018, 05:22:21 am
When the raid fleet is 6k - 8k strong and you can only scrounge together 1k-2k, it is basically a game over since recovering from the damage will take you decades. Not to mention that any hostile neighbors will like declare war afterwards. This seems like a serious oversight in the marauder mechanics.
I'm fine with them trashing you if you decide to take the trashing or can't afford the bribe, but this accidental trashing is just bad.
Post by: Culise on February 25, 2018, 05:30:08 am
Presumably if you prefer to play "tall" you build defense stations to protect the entrances to your territory.You should probably be doing this playing "wide", too, to be fair. Defensive works make for some serious force-multipliers, and until jump drives arrive into the fray, being able to lock down choke points with static forces lets you free your mobile forces to actually do some damage. Enemy raiders can be rather irritating, otherwise, so stopping them from moving into your space with either planetary FTL inhibitors or orbital FTL inhibitors is a strong plus. A good fortress or citadel in the mid-game can easily equal a proper fleet, even if it can't move, and it runs off the starbase caps instead of your fleet caps.
Also, I feel like jump drives are an even bigger game changer now than they were in older hyper-only games, even with the cooldown times. I'm running hyper lanes a bit sparse (experimenting with 0.5-0.75) and they tend to be a bit snaky compared to previous patches. When I have two stars spatially adjacent that have easily a dozen jumps between them, jump drives have cut transit times across my empire in half. They're probably not as critical if you set the game options to denser arrangements, but they're even more valuable than I thought, and I already expected them to be pretty darn valuable.
Post by: Sirus on February 25, 2018, 11:32:58 am
Post by: StagnantSoul on February 25, 2018, 11:53:36 am
Post by: Sartain on February 25, 2018, 12:14:42 pm
I'm hearing a lot of stuff about the new patch. How are people getting along with Apocalypse?
Other than my gripe about how war exhaustion is calculated, it's great! Just remember to have lots of naval capacity
Post by: Cruxador on February 25, 2018, 01:14:08 pm
Really enjoying Apocolypse, it basically adds all the modded stuff without being broken like the mods.
without being brokenwhat
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 25, 2018, 02:56:01 pm
Post by: Wiles on February 25, 2018, 03:11:45 pm
I found a bug with the new troop transport behavior. If you have primitives around and you are hostile with them (due to using the new abduction style bombardment on them) your transports will auto-invade if you happen to be sending your fleet through their system. I was mildly annoyed when I suddenly had a tiny planet full of angry slaves I really didn't want.
Post by: StagnantSoul on February 25, 2018, 03:15:18 pm
Really enjoying Apocolypse, it basically adds all the modded stuff without being broken like the mods.without being brokenwhat
The majority of the ship class and titan mods etc were rather unbalanced and made the vanilla classes useless instantly, or the ai didn't even use them at all, at least in my experience.
Post by: PTTG?? on February 25, 2018, 03:20:08 pm
Post by: Cruxador on February 25, 2018, 09:24:14 pm
Oh, you're talking about only the DLC stuff and not the patch in general. Fair enough then.Really enjoying Apocolypse, it basically adds all the modded stuff without being broken like the mods.without being brokenwhat
The majority of the ship class and titan mods etc were rather unbalanced and made the vanilla classes useless instantly, or the ai didn't even use them at all, at least in my experience.
Post by: StagnantSoul on February 25, 2018, 09:51:09 pm
Oh, you're talking about only the DLC stuff and not the patch in general. Fair enough then.Really enjoying Apocolypse, it basically adds all the modded stuff without being broken like the mods.without being brokenwhat
The majority of the ship class and titan mods etc were rather unbalanced and made the vanilla classes useless instantly, or the ai didn't even use them at all, at least in my experience.
Patch in general makes the game play more like that one star wars mod I disliked for how it made star systems work... So... Yeaaah...
War also got tedious as hell, if I'm not careful I'll actually lose a system or two while watching a science ship float around.
Otherwise I kinda like it. The starbase is interesting.
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 25, 2018, 10:04:00 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Flying Dice on February 25, 2018, 10:24:52 pm
I wonder what Stellaris would be like if combat was more abstracted, and instead of watching two buckets of marbles scatter into each other, combat was all about managing masses of abstracted ships more in line with stuff like HOI, CK or EU, and was altogether secondary to the actual management of the Empire.Cos I think when they make Stellaris II they should either make combat actually meaningful or else stop focusing on the superificality of smashing bricks together and more on the management of a nascent interstellar EmpireSpoiler (click to show/hide)
I've played games like that, and it tends to be very, very boring. Space 4X games tend to lean very heavily on the whole "research military tech, design your ships, watch them blow stuff up and be blown up in turn rather spectacularly" cycle because a lot of other concerns are absent. The concepts of terrain and geography are limited at best (usually not much more than hyperlanes/jump points/natural wormholes/limited life support range to create barriers and choke points, "this bit is in a nebula which means -50% to shields and sensors", and maybe something like Aurora where black hole systems will suck in and destroy ships with insufficiently powerful drives) because space is big, open, and empty in a way that really doesn't mesh with terrestrial grand-strat norms.
There's also the lack of established historical background and relationships that you'd have in other PDX games. You can see that they tried to go the "develop history and galactic politics as the game progresses", but not really any more so than similar titles.
Basically, if you reduce ships and combat to "press factory to make bigger numbers, point pile of numbers at enemy numbers" you find yourself with a lackluster industry/logistics manager. Aurora aside, it's usually not terribly complex or difficult to manage.
Space 4X has a heavy focus on the exploration and combat elements because those are what it's best at. The space politics and nation-building is characteristically not that interesting and tends to exist largely to enable the former bits because that's the only reason anyone would care about it. The only way games in that vein like Neptune's Pride worked was by making it competitive multiplayer where every party involved was an absolute bastard of a human player trying to screw over every other player without getting dogpiled. GalCiv II pointed in the right direction by having AI that got harder with increased difficulty because the higher settings were clever strategists that would actively plan complex political strategies to secure different types of victory.
So yeah. Mainly lack of competition from dumb AI. There's no inherent challenge in smashing abstract doomstacks against AI that won't be as efficient at the macro game as you, so most of the fun is had in playing with ship designs and watching them shoot pretty lights.
Post by: dennislp3 on February 25, 2018, 10:28:25 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on February 26, 2018, 01:43:38 am
I wonder what Stellaris would be like if combat was more abstracted, and instead of watching two buckets of marbles scatter into each other, combat was all about managing masses of abstracted ships more in line with stuff like HOI, CK or EU, and was altogether secondary to the actual management of the Empire.Cos I think when they make Stellaris II they should either make combat actually meaningful or else stop focusing on the superificality of smashing bricks together and more on the management of a nascent interstellar EmpireSpoiler (click to show/hide)
I've played games like that, and it tends to be very, very boring. Space 4X games tend to lean very heavily on the whole "research military tech, design your ships, watch them blow stuff up and be blown up in turn rather spectacularly" cycle because a lot of other concerns are absent. The concepts of terrain and geography are limited at best (usually not much more than hyperlanes/jump points/natural wormholes/limited life support range to create barriers and choke points, "this bit is in a nebula which means -50% to shields and sensors", and maybe something like Aurora where black hole systems will suck in and destroy ships with insufficiently powerful drives) because space is big, open, and empty in a way that really doesn't mesh with terrestrial grand-strat norms.
There's also the lack of established historical background and relationships that you'd have in other PDX games. You can see that they tried to go the "develop history and galactic politics as the game progresses", but not really any more so than similar titles.
Basically, if you reduce ships and combat to "press factory to make bigger numbers, point pile of numbers at enemy numbers" you find yourself with a lackluster industry/logistics manager. Aurora aside, it's usually not terribly complex or difficult to manage.
Space 4X has a heavy focus on the exploration and combat elements because those are what it's best at. The space politics and nation-building is characteristically not that interesting and tends to exist largely to enable the former bits because that's the only reason anyone would care about it. The only way games in that vein like Neptune's Pride worked was by making it competitive multiplayer where every party involved was an absolute bastard of a human player trying to screw over every other player without getting dogpiled. GalCiv II pointed in the right direction by having AI that got harder with increased difficulty because the higher settings were clever strategists that would actively plan complex political strategies to secure different types of victory.
So yeah. Mainly lack of competition from dumb AI. There's no inherent challenge in smashing abstract doomstacks against AI that won't be as efficient at the macro game as you, so most of the fun is had in playing with ship designs and watching them shoot pretty lights.
I agree with the principle, but I believe that the lack of good non-combat challenges to space 4xes comes from a lack of focus on the concept. Star Trek is the closest we get to a series focused away from combat, and even then it has a lot of shootin'. I think that there's plenty of room for a 4x to play with non-combat-focused design. Admittedly, it probably wouldn't be Stellaris.
Post by: Flying Dice on February 26, 2018, 08:09:08 am
The only two examples I can think of are Aurora (because the logistics and empire management were so involved that you had to enjoy them to some degree if you wanted to get to combat), and GalCiv I/II (which used exclusively pre-build civs with established, canonical relationships, good non-combat AI, and half-decent mechanics for cultural and diplo victories).
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 26, 2018, 09:35:50 am
Post by: Cruxador on February 26, 2018, 11:03:37 am
I suppose a bit of it could also be down to how we may need to wait until everyone has supercomputers for gaming rigs before we can have a dank space grand strategy which puts the scale and 3 dimensions of space to good useProcessor speed isn't the reason we don't have 3D. A because of the inability to portray it effectively without clear points of reference (that is, in a vacuum) on a flat screen, and because it's tough for the programmers to think that way. If the latter problem was solved (by ubiquitous 3D displays of one sort or another) then we would probably see more true 3D eventually, as it would become worthwhile to overcome the development hurdle.
As for the matter of scale, there's two problems there. For one, massive scale means massive wait times, unless you implement quality of life mechanics which then also reduce the appearance of scale. And then, the average player doesn't just want scale, they want it rendered at a graphical quality sufficiently similar to other contemporary games.
Post by: Wiles on February 26, 2018, 01:27:07 pm
It is because when you forcibly vassalize someone they will claim all of your systems that border their empire due to their negative opinion. Likewise if you end up in a federation with a former rival you will have an ally with claims on your system. When you are at war you can't claim territory your allies already have claims on, so if the machine uprising happens you are screwed out of all of your systems.
Post by: cider on February 26, 2018, 01:42:37 pm
Post by: Sartain on February 26, 2018, 02:40:58 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on February 26, 2018, 03:09:42 pm
The only other empire I've met (I'm not sure where the heck everyone is) is behind me technologically, and I'm an enslaving spiritualist. Quickly nabbing the best systems via starbase has become easier with practice, and I'm getting my fleet up to snuff.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on February 26, 2018, 04:20:16 pm
Holy shit I am having a hard time keeping up with the AI, even on normal. Seems like they always have enough resources to outbuild and out-tech me while also being faster at recovering from war and having better defenses. I don't know, maybe I just suck ???
actually, turns out the AI cheats on resources, even on Normal
contrary to what the game tells us
according to this, anyway: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-ai-pays-half-mineral-maintenance-ships-and-consumer-goods-on-normal.1072648/
Post by: Damiac on February 26, 2018, 04:25:40 pm
I had a war where 2 ais attacked me, they claimed a number of my systems, got sick of me, and attacked in a claim war.
I had one ally with a defensive pact. I don't think that's significant, but I figured I'd mention it.
So at the start of the war, I was caught unprepared. So the enemy occupied about 8 of my systems, including a planet.
I built up and pushed them back, destroying their fleet a few times, eventually getting the warscore tied up, at around 84.
At this point, 4 of my systems are still occupied by them.
I move in to take another system, and fight another enemy fleet. The instant combat ends, I get a message from the AI that started the war, saying it's over, and it's a status quo. I have no option but to agree.
After this, the 4 occupied systems become owned by the 2nd AI (the one who had occupied them). Now, this can't be right. Now, after turning around an invasion attempt, after getting the enemy on their heels, they get to just say "Time out, no more war for 10 years, and we'll just keep these systems". I mean... wtf?!?
This is like after Germany invading france and england in ww2, after taking a few losses holding england they just get to say "OK OK, that's enough war, status quo, we keep england and france, no takebacks for 10 years!"
That is not how things work. No war has ever worked that way!
Firstly, the war exhaustion timer is just way too fast. With the travel times being so incredibly long now, it's even more of a problem.
Secondly, the way exhaustion works is just nonsense. The aggressor gets the exact same amount of time until their people are sick of the war as the defender?!? Surely it's obvious why that's stupid. The aggressors can always just go home, they're not defending themselves, so the civilians are going to get sick of the war faster (Think US in Iraq). The defenders, on the other hand, are having their worlds taken from them by an aggressive enemy empire. They're probably going to support the fight for a really long time, especially if they are making any sort of progress (Think occupied England and France).
So here's how I think it should work:
If attacker exhaustion fills up, attacker can propose either a white peace (Defender gets all occupied systems back and keeps whatever they took), or they propose a surrender (Give in to war demands)
Then the defender gets the same options in reverse.
Even that's not perfect, but if they're going to keep this stupid exhaustion system, it can at least make a little sense. But really, the exhaustion system should do nothing but be a modifier to surrender acceptance(And probably a happiness modifier, based on ethics). As it is, it's just such an odd and inelegant system, who the hell is enforcing these 10 year peace treaties? I didn't join the space UN, damn it!
Also, it seems that garrisoning armies doesn't knock down unrest anymore. This is sort of a problem when you play with slaves, and the tooltip indicates that you should be able to lower it with garrisoned armies, so I think it's a bug. Anyone else notice that, or discover any workarounds?
Post by: Dunamisdeos on February 26, 2018, 04:36:16 pm
I found that a stronghold and a slave processing facility have been enough to stave off rebellion, and I'm about to take the harmony perk for unrest, which should be enough for a permanent solution to the issue.
I believe there are further techs to reduce unrest, I'm fairly early in right now.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on February 26, 2018, 04:40:33 pm
Also, it seems that garrisoning armies doesn't knock down unrest anymore. This is sort of a problem when you play with slaves, and the tooltip indicates that you should be able to lower it with garrisoned armies, so I think it's a bug. Anyone else notice that, or discover any workarounds?
Assault armies (AKA the kind that can pack up and leave the planet) don't count as garrisons anymore and don't reduce unrest. You have to build the fortress/garrison building on the planet to reduce unrest, but I believe that the reduction tied to the building itself and not the troops. So it's not a bug so much as tooltips not being updated properly.
I would also like to mention that the current war exhaustion system makes perfect sense to me. They just have to tweak the numbers around a lot so that ticking exhaustion isn't so painful and big, country-ending wars result in significantly less war exhaustion than quick land grabs. Conceptionally it's fine the way it is. The implementation just needs improvement.
Post by: Damiac on February 26, 2018, 04:45:47 pm
Holy shit I am having a hard time keeping up with the AI, even on normal. Seems like they always have enough resources to outbuild and out-tech me while also being faster at recovering from war and having better defenses. I don't know, maybe I just suck ???
actually, turns out the AI cheats on resources, even on Normal
contrary to what the game tells us
according to this, anyway: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-ai-pays-half-mineral-maintenance-ships-and-consumer-goods-on-normal.1072648/
Aww man... this is big. And reading through it, this has been in the game since launch. They proudly announce that the AI doesn't cheat, so just learn to play better if you're losing. And then it turns out the AI pays half maintenance costs on normal mode. Devs are remaining silent... part of the reason I ended up getting this game is that supposedly it was a 4X where the AI didn't cheat to be competitive!
Post by: JimboM12 on February 26, 2018, 04:55:48 pm
time to make the holy roman space empire.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 26, 2018, 05:16:41 pm
Also vassal relationships are sorta fucked right now by the claim system. I'm playing the overlord in my current game and one vassal I've had for about 150 years, they still have a -185 negative to our relationship from claims they've held onto that whole time. Since AI never releases claims anyone who ever claims any of your space (such as the nation that you're attacking to vasalize) will hate you forever.
I guess you can conquer other empires and then spit out their lands into new vassal states that presumably won't get claims on you, and then the trait could actually be helpful... Although then you have to agonizingly give them system after system over the course of like 20 trade deals (at least, afaik, I thought there must be a better way to make new vassals, but I couldn't find one.)
I really enjoy taking vassals, as I hate sectors, don't want to micromanage a bunch of planets, and hate federations (I'd rather everyone just give me part of their income and let me handle the rest... Although I've heard because of the absolute fleet cap that might not be as possible in this version in the late game.) and so I've played plenty of overlord focused games, both with and without the feudalism civic, and I'll say I never noticed a significant difference.
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 26, 2018, 05:28:11 pm
So at the start of the war, I was caught unprepared. So the enemy occupied about 8 of my systems, including a planet.What happened here is that your war exhaustion hit 100% after that combat. The AI proposed a status quo peace and you cannot refuse them if you're at 100%. They're already changing this for next patch, where you can refuse but you will suffer severe penalties on unity and influence income for fighting an unwanted war, so the choice will be yours.
I built up and pushed them back, destroying their fleet a few times, eventually getting the warscore tied up, at around 84.
At this point, 4 of my systems are still occupied by them.
I move in to take another system, and fight another enemy fleet. The instant combat ends, I get a message from the AI that started the war, saying it's over, and it's a status quo. I have no option but to agree.
Also, it seems that garrisoning armies doesn't knock down unrest anymore. This is sort of a problem when you play with slaves, and the tooltip indicates that you should be able to lower it with garrisoned armies, so I think it's a bug. Anyone else notice that, or discover any workarounds?This is correct. ONLY defensive buildings such as forts built on planets or certain edicts will knock down unrest. You CANNOT garrison assault armies, and defense armies are generated automatically.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 26, 2018, 05:31:27 pm
I DO have unrest when I take enemy planets that's hard to deal with. Not sure what you're suppose to do with that.
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 26, 2018, 05:46:10 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 26, 2018, 05:50:37 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on February 27, 2018, 02:20:17 am
EDIT: part of it is the way the game scales. A.) The player is generally much better at growing and keeping apace than the AI is, generally you're only in real trouble of potentially losing in the very early game. B.) Sectors are not only broken, but the failed/unfinished implementation of somewhat different idea.
If you guys, remember one of the things that was talked about when Stellaris was in development/first released was how Paradox kind of wanted to make it a two-part game. Part one was to be purely expansion. Part two was supposed more like what we're used to in EUIV and CKII, an ever-shifting array of alliances, rebellions, and random events over the galactic geography. If it was me designing the game, I would have made sectors more like how areas, regions, and culture work in EUIV. You colonize a few planets and suddenly it becomes a relatively set map tile that then functions autonomously. large swathes of sectors could be razed to change the galactic geography, but the map always fills back up. With independents gradually consuming the uncolonized space. I kind of think something like that might have been the original plan, but they just stopped 1% into the process.
Other than that, the lack of interesting geographical focal points really deadens the game, there's not much pressure to expand to a certain place as long as you are expanding. In EUIV you WANT Constantinople or those juicy developed provinces or anything that gives you a trading or military bonus (all of which happen to be pretty hard to attack and sometimes defend.) Speaking of trading... I thought dynamic trade routes and a more in-depth system in general would have ben a no brainer. What we have now is so... Civ V. Finally of course, I do kind of wish the warfare was abstracted. It's pretty unfun to manage fleets or even manually update designs. The rock-paper-scissors of the weapon types is nice, but it would have been cool to see dynamically growing unit pips. Something of a cross between EUIV and HOI4 would have been awesome (with the ability to micro the important bits or climactic battles.) Of course, the fact that there is really only one winning strategy kind of blows in a strategy game.
Post by: Cruxador on February 27, 2018, 02:44:07 am
If you guys, remember one of the things that was talked about when Stellaris was in development/first released was how Paradox kind of wanted to make it a two-part game. Part one was to be purely expansion. Part two was supposed more like what we're used to in EUIV and CKII, an ever-shifting array of alliances, rebellions, and random events over the galactic geography. If it was me designing the game, I would have made sectors more like how areas, regions, and culture work in EUIV. You colonize a few planets and suddenly it becomes a relatively set map tile that then functions autonomously. large swathes of sectors could be razed to change the galactic geography, but the map always fills back up. With independents gradually consuming the uncolonized space. I kind of think something like that might have been the original plan, but they just stopped 1% into the process.They kind of planned to do that but the initial team wasn't very skilled since they didn't expect Stellaris to be particularly successful for some reason, and they didn't properly realize the idea. Since then, sectors have been diminished instead of expanded upon, perhaps in part because the playerbase in general hates them.
Post by: Descan on February 27, 2018, 03:28:55 am
That was hit or miss for me; If they had an orbital station, I could attack it and make the prim-civ hostile that way. Then bombardment is simple.I'm still in that portion of my game, eager to see how it evolves into wartime (I'm trying barbaric despoilers). Fun fact, you can't abduct primitives with the raiding stance since you can't bombard them. I'm disappointed, but I can understand how having what would essentially be a population farm early-game would be broken.
Primitives in what way? Pre-sentients that you can uplift? I'm only asking because I've abducted pops from a Renaissance planet as a Barbaric Despoiler just fine. The fact that they actually grow to fill out the missing pops is great. The fact that all of their species, regardless of where they are, get stellar shock once you take over their planet? Not so great.
That's actually literally what I was talking about. It wouldn't let me bombard atomic age civs.
Without that, I've had right-clicking on a planet both ask me to confirm that I want to bombard them and turn them hostile, AND had it happen that my ships would just park in orbit and no hostilities commenced.
I fixed the latter by sending a lone army and then retreating as soon as I could, so I could then bombard it into a tomb world and put my Exterminator colony onto it.
Post by: Sartain on February 27, 2018, 03:57:38 am
IMO, the AI was never competitive in Stellaris. One of the easier games compared to EUIV and HOI3 with the right challenges/mods/goals. CKII is possibly easier given the large number of whacky and fun exploits, but they are by their nature: whacky and fun.
EDIT: part of it is the way the game scales. A.) The player is generally much better at growing and keeping apace than the AI is, generally you're only in real trouble of potentially losing in the very early game. B.) Sectors are not only broken, but the failed/unfinished implementation of somewhat different idea.
I have almost 400 hours in Stellaris pre 2.0 and it never bothered me much then either, I used to play on high aggressiveness to get more action in the game but with the new fleet/station system it seems like I'm a lot more vulnerable to the AIs predations, to the point where the only sensible approach is to avoid war completely.
Seems to me that fighting smaller, multiple-front wars with multiple skirmishes rather than one big battle (which as I understand it is the intent of 2.0) is a losing proposition if an equal AI can rebuild and reinforce faster than you can due to code shenaningans
Post by: Dorsidwarf on February 27, 2018, 04:38:21 am
would be nice if the AI were more disinclined to attack empires who frequently took territory in defensive wars though. A sort of inverse Threat
Post by: dennislp3 on February 27, 2018, 07:26:13 am
Post by: Damiac on February 27, 2018, 08:55:24 am
So at the start of the war, I was caught unprepared. So the enemy occupied about 8 of my systems, including a planet.What happened here is that your war exhaustion hit 100% after that combat. The AI proposed a status quo peace and you cannot refuse them if you're at 100%. They're already changing this for next patch, where you can refuse but you will suffer severe penalties on unity and influence income for fighting an unwanted war, so the choice will be yours.
I built up and pushed them back, destroying their fleet a few times, eventually getting the warscore tied up, at around 84.
At this point, 4 of my systems are still occupied by them.
I move in to take another system, and fight another enemy fleet. The instant combat ends, I get a message from the AI that started the war, saying it's over, and it's a status quo. I have no option but to agree.Also, it seems that garrisoning armies doesn't knock down unrest anymore. This is sort of a problem when you play with slaves, and the tooltip indicates that you should be able to lower it with garrisoned armies, so I think it's a bug. Anyone else notice that, or discover any workarounds?This is correct. ONLY defensive buildings such as forts built on planets or certain edicts will knock down unrest. You CANNOT garrison assault armies, and defense armies are generated automatically.
That makes some sense, but I guess it's weird that I just have no way to bring down unrest other than wasting planet tiles on an otherwise useless building. I mean... it sort of defeats the purpose of running slavery (food and minerals +10%) if I have to waste more than 10% of my building space on keeping unrest down. The idea of taking unity as a slaver species seems.... odd... Of course I have the special slave processing facilities on all my worlds, because that's another +10%! Plus 2 food and 2 minerals ain't bad either. However it seems probable that just keeping pops happy instead of enslaving them is the much better strategy now, due to the limited controls one has on unrest...
The war exhaustion thing just seems to prevent someone from making a comeback in a slightly losing war. I had 1 planet and a bunch of empty systems occupied, and smashed their fleet. After that last battle, while it's possible it took us both over 100%, the AI exhaustion was higher. So why should they come out ahead after the war? They were losing!
What bothers me about this is that it prevents an empire with a great economy and a weak fleet from mobilizing their industry to churn out a fleet, push back the attackers, then take some of their territory. Or even just push the attackers out, because it takes so little to fill up the war exhaustion. This might not be such a big deal, except that now, I've gone and churned out a fleet, pausing my economy, increasing my maintenance, and since the enemy "Surrendered" I can't actually use this fleet on them for 10 years, giving them plenty of time to build back up. Why the hell would I accept that truce? No nation would, it makes no sense. "Oh yes, they've been our rival for years, and just tried to kill us, but we managed to cripple their fleet. Then they asked politely if we would just let them keep the systems they went through on their way to kill us, and of course we said yes, take 10 years to build back up and try to kill us again please!"
I don't hate all the changes, and even the ones I hate currently probably just need some work to make more sense, but this in particular is very frustrating to me.
Since then I've tried a war of aggression against an AI. When you're ready to fight at the start of the war, it's another story entirely. My exhaustion went up to about 14 over the entire war. The AI was at 100% for quite a while (I took a long time to take a planet, I wasn't prepared for the new defensive army strength, a positive change in my opinion). Even though the AI was at 100%, they wouldn't surrender until I actually occupied the planet, which is odd. But all in all, the mechanics felt sensible for a straightforward invasion with superior forces. It's the back and forth wars that make a bit less sense, in my opinion. Maybe you should be able to take away some exhaustion when you take back systems, so as to allow comebacks.
Post by: Wiles on February 27, 2018, 09:20:01 am
Post by: Radsoc on February 27, 2018, 09:50:54 am
War exhaustion should scale with 1) manpower losses and population size. ("Manpower" needs to be in game). 2) Energy/Mineral gain losses and total potential compared to the enemy. I mean the Soviets lost a lot of manpower before Stalingrad, but in relative terms not so much, and their production capacity outgrew that of the EU-invaders.
Should be no cease fire in Stalingrad-like situations.
But in general I like the changes.
Navy cap should scale with galaxy size as well.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 27, 2018, 10:55:29 am
Also... Is it just me, or does the Federation fleet not follow the rules for fleet cap? I'm not sure, not being in a federation in my current game myself (In my game there's only one federation that has almost everyone except me in it, and I was in it early game, but I left to go my own way and they never really forgave me...) But I saw it fly though my lands on it's way to some war or another and it had a pretty shocking 85k fleet strength (considering that the federation members were all otherwise tooling around like fleets in the 10-30k size... Only me and the fallen empires could make a fleet that strong.) Although I was unable to see how many ships it had because it was made up of dozens and dozens of ship types with only a few ships each, but I'm pretty sure there's no way that they did that within the limits of whatever technology the federation has.
Also it feels like federations as a whole have to be stronker now, since fleet upkeep is so much more expensive the value of the federation fleet must go up a ton. Not to mention with the absolute fleet cap you'll more quickly reach a point where multiple nations sending fleets can become bigger then a single nation sending a much larger fleet. (And since AI cheats a ton apparently >.> <.<) I wonder if vassals and tributaries should be buffed a little bit to compensate.
Post by: Damiac on February 27, 2018, 01:37:38 pm
I like the implementation of war exhaustion in EU4. Here I agree it can be flawed. A ten year cease fire is too much as well.
War exhaustion should scale with 1) manpower losses and population size. ("Manpower" needs to be in game). 2) Energy/Mineral gain losses and total potential compared to the enemy. I mean the Soviets lost a lot of manpower before Stalingrad, but in relative terms not so much, and their production capacity outgrew that of the EU-invaders.
Should be no cease fire in Stalingrad-like situations.
This was the point I was trying to make, this is a good illustration. This is why I think it would make sense if war exhaustion could be subtracted when someone starts "coming back". Don't my people want to take the fight back to those filthy xeno invaders after they bombed one of our worlds? I get that they want to stop the bleeding, but when our fleet went on the offensive and we started taking back systems, wouldn't they be reinvigorated?
Or, space hitler just suddenly invaded one of my colonies, space poland. Then he took a number of systems between space poland and space moscow. But by that point his fleet was hurt, and mine was being reinforced all along. Then we pushed space hitler's forces back! Back halfway to space poland! But then all the space russians were like "Ehh... this war has gone on long enough. Let's just stop now, even though we're on track to take back space poland, and in fact could go all the way to space berlin now that their fleet is destroyed, and end the threat of space hitler forever. But I'm bored of this war NOW, so let's just let them have space poland and a bunch of our systems, I'm sure they won't use the additional forces to attack us again in 10 years, oh no sir"
Post by: Majestic7 on February 27, 2018, 02:35:46 pm
Post by: TalonisWolf on February 27, 2018, 04:15:07 pm
Dwarf Fortress Namelist (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1313999417&searchtext=)
Post by: Dunamisdeos on February 27, 2018, 04:18:49 pm
Post by: Cruxador on February 27, 2018, 04:25:04 pm
Well, just stumbled across this mod:There's a dwarf advisor voice too. No idea if it's any good.
Dwarf Fortress Namelist (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1313999417&searchtext=)
Post by: TalonisWolf on February 27, 2018, 04:44:01 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 27, 2018, 06:07:17 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on February 27, 2018, 11:45:15 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on February 28, 2018, 05:00:38 am
Post by: Flying Dice on February 28, 2018, 07:55:35 am
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on February 28, 2018, 04:29:16 pm
Post by: Radsoc on February 28, 2018, 08:41:45 pm
Post by: Dorsidwarf on February 28, 2018, 09:23:28 pm
(Basically all stellaris aeappns seem to be on 360* turret mounts after all)
Post by: Hanzoku on March 01, 2018, 03:57:53 am
*edit* That said, the change to trader guilds make me sad. No longer will my late game mineral needs be met by trading them tens of thousands of energy for minerals.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 01, 2018, 11:57:19 am
Quote from: From the 2.0.2 Beta Patch Notes
* You are no longer forced to make peace at 100% war exhaustion, instead your Influence and Unity monthly gains are reduced to 0 and a happiness penalty is applied to all Pops until you make peace.
* Increased energy upkeep of all Starbase sizes by +1. Outposts now cost 1 energy maintenance. (Why?)
* Marauder raiding fleets are now neutral to everyone except their intended target so they won't wreck everything in their path when they go a-viking.
* Tradition unity cost per system reduced from 2% to 1%.
* Increased time limits of all Special Projects requiring a ship in orbit (new minimum is 3 years).
* Afterburners can no longer be installed on defense platforms, as lovely as it was to uselessly vent fuel in to space as a gesture of contempt to environmentalists.
* Nihilistic Acquisition can now be taken by purifier-style empires.
Some nice changes coming up in the next patch. I might actually load up the 2.0.2 beta just to fiddle with them. The fact that Purifier-style empires can now abduct pops for the express purposes of purging them tickles me greatly too. It's up there with Rogue Servitors doing the same, except to gently coddle the pops instead.
Post by: Majestic7 on March 01, 2018, 12:59:22 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on March 01, 2018, 01:31:52 pm
Post by: Cruxador on March 01, 2018, 01:37:25 pm
Ok, I have to say that I like a lot of the quality of life changes so far. Civilian ships not taking up military shipyard queues, removing tile blockers only needing energy, recruiting leaders now using energy, and fulfilling campaign promises rewarding unity are all good changes from my viewpoint.If fulfilling campaign promises in was that useful in real life, politicians might actually do it!
*edit* That said, the change to trader guilds make me sad. No longer will my late game mineral needs be met by trading them tens of thousands of energy for minerals.
Quote from: From the 2.0.2 Beta Patch Notes
* Tradition unity cost per system reduced from 2% to 1%.Which is nice I guess but science is what needs this more. Unity you can at least make the argument that it's supposed to be slow since if you run out, it's a dead mechanic. But lacking science is a pretty major thing. And I'm really hoping this is in addition to rather than instead of fixing the issue that the unity penalty was calculated by multiplying the (individually summed) penalties from planets and outposts together.
* Increased energy upkeep of all Starbase sizes by +1. Outposts now cost 1 energy maintenance. (Why?)
Just in case anyone was so foolish as to suppose that the unity change might make it more viable to claim everything within your borders instead of making a swiss cheese empire.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 01, 2018, 01:41:04 pm
EDIT:
Quote from: Beta 2.0.2 Patch Notes
* Fixed system/colony tradition costs being multiplied on each other instead of additive
Apparently I'm just blind. They definitely fixed that issue.
Post by: Flying Dice on March 01, 2018, 05:24:04 pm
Post by: Cruxador on March 01, 2018, 07:54:36 pm
Eh, looks like they're pushing harder to stop the octopus -> cell wall -> "I'll claim all the interior stuff eventually" school of expansion.They did change how the influence cost for new colonies works in order to do that, but it doesn't at all address the fact that right now it's optimal to dismantle all but the best outposts once you've got stations blocking off chokepoints.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 01, 2018, 08:55:13 pm
Eh, looks like they're pushing harder to stop the octopus -> cell wall -> "I'll claim all the interior stuff eventually" school of expansion.They did change how the influence cost for new colonies works in order to do that, but it doesn't at all address the fact that right now it's optimal to dismantle all but the best outposts once you've got stations blocking off chokepoints.
well pirates, but yeah
generally kind of a dumb design
Post by: Flying Dice on March 01, 2018, 09:43:57 pm
Dunno about that. Almost every system has at least a single 2-energy resource. If you drop a mining station on that you're already covering the cost of system ownership. One high-tech energy plant is enough to cover a ton of systems.Eh, looks like they're pushing harder to stop the octopus -> cell wall -> "I'll claim all the interior stuff eventually" school of expansion.They did change how the influence cost for new colonies works in order to do that, but it doesn't at all address the fact that right now it's optimal to dismantle all but the best outposts once you've got stations blocking off chokepoints.
Frankly, the whole reworked territory control feels far less resource-intensive compared to how much of a pain in the ass it was building up enough influence to colonize every shitty planet you could, or god forbid build multiple frontier outposts. All we really need now is for AI to not cheat on maintenance and it ought to feel good. Not hard at all to run an energy surplus unless your build-up is incredibly unbalanced or you're leaving fleets/colony ships idling in empty space.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 01, 2018, 09:59:04 pm
Post by: Cruxador on March 01, 2018, 11:35:05 pm
It's not really about the energy, that's just a cherry on top. The exact math changes depending on your research output and number of systems/planets, but generally you would have needed about three research per system to break even. Now you need three research and one energy, on top of the energy that you need to pay for the mineral mining and research stations. And you're taking a loss on unity no matter what you do.Dunno about that. Almost every system has at least a single 2-energy resource. If you drop a mining station on that you're already covering the cost of system ownership. One high-tech energy plant is enough to cover a ton of systems.Eh, looks like they're pushing harder to stop the octopus -> cell wall -> "I'll claim all the interior stuff eventually" school of expansion.They did change how the influence cost for new colonies works in order to do that, but it doesn't at all address the fact that right now it's optimal to dismantle all but the best outposts once you've got stations blocking off chokepoints.
Quote
Frankly, the whole reworked territory control feels far less resource-intensive compared to how much of a pain in the ass it was building up enough influence to colonize every shitty planet you could, or god forbid build multiple frontier outposts. All we really need now is for AI to not cheat on maintenance and it ought to feel good. Not hard at all to run an energy surplus unless your build-up is incredibly unbalanced or you're leaving fleets/colony ships idling in empty space.The current system hasn't really changed the degree to which you want to colonize new planets, if anything you'll want it more now as it allows you to produce resources without incurring as much of a percentage malus as you'd get from enough systems to produce the same amount.
Post by: Flying Dice on March 02, 2018, 12:11:33 am
Admittedly, I do miss GalCiv's research costs scaling proportionate to the size of the galaxy. That was interesting, since it directly incentivized over-extension to secure more planets and research resources. Stellaris is a more straightforward concern where even the inherent inefficiency of a large empire is mostly irrelevant, since that same state also means that you can lock down enough resources to steamroll the dumb AI even when they're cheating. Normal just isn't very hard, you can easily grab a quarter of the galaxy in the initial land grab if you get a decent spawn.
That was actually one point where GalCiv really got things right. Despite using warp-style FTL, the life support techs created natural barriers and also heavily slowed the expansion process. That's one point where Stellaris suffered both before and after 2.0, it's way too easy to rapidly leapfrog through territory since your ships don't have any limits on travel beyond closed borders and the arbitrary slowdown of FTL outside your own. It's like playing EU4 with all of the Colonization ideas automatically unlocked and infinite support range for navies.
Post by: Cruxador on March 02, 2018, 01:27:46 am
While that's true, research costs increasing proportionate to territory isn't a particularly unfair mechanic. If it helps, parse it as including the cost of retooling and distributing developments throughout your empire. If you want fast research, play small.That's a good theory and that's how it's worked in the past, but at this point, dismantling the the less efficient outposts (creating the "swiss cheese empire") is giving you upwards of 20% research bonus for only about a 4% decrease to energy/minerals in a now somewhat famous example before the beta patch. Thoe specific numbers were aiming for an optimal ratio, so the exact numbers can be different depending on how zealous you are in purging inefficient outposts, but though the unity numbers are better now, the energy has only gotten worse. And science progresses you into the late game, a big difference in science takes a whole lot longer to rectify than a big difference in minerals - one good war can do that.
Quote
That was actually one point where GalCiv really got things right. Despite using warp-style FTL, the life support techs created natural barriers and also heavily slowed the expansion process. That's one point where Stellaris suffered both before and after 2.0, it's way too easy to rapidly leapfrog through territory since your ships don't have any limits on travel beyond closed borders and the arbitrary slowdown of FTL outside your own. It's like playing EU4 with all of the Colonization ideas automatically unlocked and infinite support range for navies.Yeah, there's a lot of problems with Stellaris that have been solved elegantly in other games. Much as I'm loathe to criticize a dev for trying new things, if there's a problem that you don't have a great solution for there's no shame in choosing not to reinvent that particular wheel.
Post by: Radsoc on March 02, 2018, 07:07:50 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 02, 2018, 09:21:31 am
One expansion limiter I liked was in Distant Worlds. You could only expand as fast as you could build fuel sources in further out locations, unless you enjoyed wrestling with the auto-refuel AI. But then, wouldn't work in this game due to a complete lack of fuel systems.
oh, something like it could work, just not called "fuel." in fact i think the game would be immeasurably better if they:
1. remove construction ships, science ships, and colony ships from the game.
2. level 1 starbases can send "Expeditions" to other star systems. Initially this is just neighboring systems, with longer distance expeditions unlocked through tech.
3. There are four types of Expeditions:
- Exploration Expeditions survey the system (takes time, of course) and identify resources and anomalies. They have to be completed before other expedition types. On completion, they construct a navigational beacon in-system. The beacon allows the other kinds of expeditions.
- Mining expeditions claim the system and upgrade the navigational beacon to an outpost, and begun constructing mining stations in all known. Requires a special starbase building.
- Science expeditions don't claim the system, but investigate anomalies and complete special projects. Requires a special starbase building.
- Colonization expeditions colonize planets. Requires a special starbase building, but you can just pick any pop in your empire as the original pop.
if they were really ambitious, the above would result in all kinds of automated NPC ships flying around and simulated resource tracking, like the non-FTL mining ships dropping ore off at the in-system outpost, which processes it into Minerals, and then FTL cargo ships automatically ship the ore to the nearest planet/starbase/whatever, which is then building ships/buildings/whatever per your orders based on resources actually received. and then pirates are actually trying to attack those instead of spawning in random empty systems you never bothered to claim because you didn't want a 1% hit to unity
anyways
Post by: Flying Dice on March 02, 2018, 09:54:48 am
That's actually surprised me about Stellaris, the lack of logistical limitations, since PDX is normally fairly harsh about the penalties of constantly running units around outside your territory for years on end.
Post by: Shadowgandor on March 02, 2018, 09:59:20 am
One expansion limiter I liked was in Distant Worlds. You could only expand as fast as you could build fuel sources in further out locations, unless you enjoyed wrestling with the auto-refuel AI. But then, wouldn't work in this game due to a complete lack of fuel systems.
oh, something like it could work, just not called "fuel." in fact i think the game would be immeasurably better if they:
1. remove construction ships, science ships, and colony ships from the game.
2. level 1 starbases can send "Expeditions" to other star systems. Initially this is just neighboring systems, with longer distance expeditions unlocked through tech.
3. There are four types of Expeditions:4. make a bunch of necessary balance and infrastructure changes, like increasing starbase building slots dramatically and making your initial starbase start with all the buildings listed above. pacing of the game would probably change dramatically which would require any number of changes, etc.
- Exploration Expeditions survey the system (takes time, of course) and identify resources and anomalies. They have to be completed before other expedition types. On completion, they construct a navigational beacon in-system. The beacon allows the other kinds of expeditions.
- Mining expeditions claim the system and upgrade the navigational beacon to an outpost, and begun constructing mining stations in all known. Requires a special starbase building.
- Science expeditions don't claim the system, but investigate anomalies and complete special projects. Requires a special starbase building.
- Colonization expeditions colonize planets. Requires a special starbase building, but you can just pick any pop in your empire as the original pop.
if they were really ambitious, the above would result in all kinds of automated NPC ships flying around and simulated resource tracking, like the non-FTL mining ships dropping ore off at the in-system outpost, which processes it into Minerals, and then FTL cargo ships automatically ship the ore to the nearest planet/starbase/whatever, which is then building ships/buildings/whatever per your orders based on resources actually received. and then pirates are actually trying to attack those instead of spawning in random empty systems you never bothered to claim because you didn't want a 1% hit to unity
anyways
Oh man this sounds a lot like Sword of the Stars 2. It was an unintuitive mess and compared to the first, which was my favourite game ever, made the second one completely unplayable.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 02, 2018, 10:19:43 am
One expansion limiter I liked was in Distant Worlds. You could only expand as fast as you could build fuel sources in further out locations, unless you enjoyed wrestling with the auto-refuel AI. But then, wouldn't work in this game due to a complete lack of fuel systems.
oh, something like it could work, just not called "fuel." in fact i think the game would be immeasurably better if they:
(blah blah blah)
Oh man this sounds a lot like Sword of the Stars 2. It was an unintuitive mess and compared to the first, which was my favourite game ever, made the second one completely unplayable.
never played sots 2. basically i just want to automate the fucking construction and science ships because the only thing they are doing is covering up the lack of gameplay. and colony ships don't even really need to exist.
troop transports and ground warfare is a whole different problem so i'm not sure what to do there but obviously that needs to change too
Post by: Wiles on March 02, 2018, 11:23:51 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 02, 2018, 11:30:27 am
Post by: Wiles on March 02, 2018, 11:35:57 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 02, 2018, 12:18:54 pm
Do you set up your sectors to replace buildings, not respect tile resources and give it a non-balanced focus?It's set not to respect tile resource, they all have a focus (most research), and redevelopment is allowed. The food production total is going UP, not down. And it's not just from building paradise domes for unity.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 02, 2018, 12:28:51 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 02, 2018, 12:31:48 pm
I just wish they could fix it. How hard is it to compare food use to food production and realize that robots don't eat.
Post by: Cruxador on March 02, 2018, 12:32:40 pm
So, no surprise but yeah the AI is still dumb. not AS dumb, but dumb. My empire of thousands of synth robot pops is still producing over 250 food in its sectors for no reason. I invaded a robotic empire, one with no organic pops, and they had hydroponic bays on all of their stations. sighThis, at least, sounds like something that Paradox can relatively easily fix if it's brought to their attention, since it's a simple absolute (if no biological pops, no food ever) and therefore they might actually do it.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 02, 2018, 12:52:43 pm
Post by: Chosrau on March 02, 2018, 04:58:30 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 02, 2018, 05:08:55 pm
Are you sure your not running a mod that screws this up? Atleast in 1.9 I have neither seen this issue in my own sectors nor in AI Empires in Observer games.No mods at all. I could provide the save if you like. It's an ironman game but I think you can transfer those
Post by: Chosrau on March 02, 2018, 05:11:26 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 02, 2018, 05:17:07 pm
Sure, I'd actually be interested in seeing that.https://www.dropbox.com/s/4mm7gzqntlb7sen/thecommonwealth_847808454.zip?dl=0
That should work. Let me know.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on March 02, 2018, 07:03:50 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 02, 2018, 07:07:57 pm
Post by: Dorsidwarf on March 02, 2018, 07:10:24 pm
Post by: Persus13 on March 02, 2018, 07:13:41 pm
I think the marauders and war exhaustion need serious tweaking, but the ideas behind all the big changes are solid. Right now it is best to play without marauders and not have many wars to avoid frustration...
Looking at the war exhaustion breakdown (and various post on Steam and Paradox forums) it's not so much that war exhaustion needs tweaking as it is the fact that they missed a giant comet-sized bug that makes your wins count as defeats. I just basically beat myself into submission by blitzing the enemy and capturing several of their systems, each giving ME war exhaustion as a 'defeat' ::)
Post by: Teneb on March 02, 2018, 07:14:57 pm
It's bug, they're working on it, I think.Is it fixed in the beta patch?I think the marauders and war exhaustion need serious tweaking, but the ideas behind all the big changes are solid. Right now it is best to play without marauders and not have many wars to avoid frustration...
Looking at the war exhaustion breakdown (and various post on Steam and Paradox forums) it's not so much that war exhaustion needs tweaking as it is the fact that they missed a giant comet-sized bug that makes your wins count as defeats. I just basically beat myself into submission by blitzing the enemy and capturing several of their systems, each giving ME war exhaustion as a 'defeat' ::)
Post by: Dorsidwarf on March 02, 2018, 07:15:08 pm
Post by: Persus13 on March 02, 2018, 07:26:58 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 02, 2018, 07:28:37 pm
So if I lose warscore for beating the enemy, how am I supposed to win wars? Is the game literally unplayable right now?Assuming you mean War Exhaustion and not Warscore, you get Status Quo peace. You keep what you took and get a big truce. Not crippling, just annoying.
You are not losing warscore, but the war exhaustion counter is bugged and counts all victories as defeats for the purposes of war exhaustion and war exhaustion only. When it hit 100%, it results in the above.
Post by: Criptfeind on March 02, 2018, 08:57:42 pm
You loose war exhaustion based on what you loose in the battle, and if you're not using the beta patch it tries to tally up who lost what and figure out if the battle was "won" or "lost" based on that. If you take a planet but loose a dozen armies doing so (quite a possible outcome since Defensive armies are super stronk right now) it'll show up as a loosing battle because you got a ton of war exhaustion from the loosing armies whereas they don't get exhaustion from the loss of their defensive armies (although they do get some from loosing the planet, I'm not sure if that counts for the battle calculations, I suspect not, and even so it's possible to take a planet and get more exhaustion then they do from the planet loss). Similarly if you fight a beefed up defensive station you can loose ships to it, which give you war exhaustion, but then it'll not give the enemy any, and so it'll calculate the battle as a loss.
Now, if that's the issue you've been facing, it's not really a bug so much as an unclear UI, they've "fixed" it in the beta patch by making it so the battle tracker no longer tries to figure out what was a win and what was a loss, but just tells you who got what war exhaustion.
Anyway, the beta patch makes it easier to subjugate people apparently (haven't tried it yet so idk.) and also makes it so that wars don't autoend at 100%, instead you get big penalties but can keep going. So you can have those big war goals it should be more possible. Otherwise I found it possible to persecute big wars successfully by really crushing my opponents so hard that I took no war exhaustion from fights. With big enough fleets and huge fuck off armies I found it possible to win most victories totally before ticking exhaustion got me. But I didn't go up against a galaxy wide federation yet, so ymmv.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on March 03, 2018, 09:47:49 am
edit: also they have a -300 modifer to us "winning" the war, because of "unoccupied claims", whatever that means
Post by: Criptfeind on March 03, 2018, 10:00:58 am
The -300 modifier means that you have some claims on them that you've not occupied. When you get a surrender on a war the winning side gets all their claims and whatever the war goal is, the AI basically doesn't surrender though so basically it's nearly impossible to get them to give up systems you're not actually controlling (but they'll be pretty happy to let you have anything you do control though a white peace once their war exhaustion goes up.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 03, 2018, 11:23:35 am
It is worth nothing that as things stand if you win a battle very decisively, you can actually gain back war exhaustion.
Post by: Sirus on March 03, 2018, 11:40:26 am
In previous versions, if you lost even a single corvette while destroying an enemy station (mining, space, military, whatever) it counted as you losing a battle. Even though, logically, robbing your enemy of valuable resources and shipbuilding capacity should hurt them far more than the loss of a single replaceable vessel hurts you. Led to bizarre situations where you could completely cripple your foe's economy and military while still counting as "losing" the war.
Post by: Cruxador on March 03, 2018, 12:27:22 pm
Post by: Baffler on March 03, 2018, 01:49:55 pm
Post by: Wiles on March 03, 2018, 01:52:24 pm
Post by: Cruxador on March 03, 2018, 03:32:01 pm
That makes more sense for war weariness than warscore though.Weariness and exhaustion are synonymous. Warscore doesn't exist any more.
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 03, 2018, 07:20:20 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on March 03, 2018, 08:24:28 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 03, 2018, 08:31:53 pm
fanatic militants should gain war exhaustion by not being at warpeace exhaustion
Post by: Egan_BW on March 03, 2018, 08:34:23 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 03, 2018, 08:36:32 pm
exactlyIsn't that just the pacifist faction? If you stay at peace long enough the pacifist faction will always become the most powerful faction
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 03, 2018, 08:43:56 pm
That feel when you literally have to choose between killing your entire species or working with alien animals at a .5 lightyear distance with no direct communications to retake the galaxy.
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 03, 2018, 08:54:20 pm
Speaking of Fanatical Purifiers, I was thinking about what a Crisis-dominated galaxy would look like (all crisis factions at once mostly fighting each other while normal civs flounder on the sidelines, grimdark future only war), and there should totally be an alternate personalty for the purifiers ala Ancient Guardians for when everything is totally fucked: Demoralized Purifiers.I rather enjoy doing fanatical purifier/isolationist runs with all 3 crises on. You just wait in your little corner of the universe building more and more ring worlds while the outside galaxy explodes or tries to break down your door. If you reach the point of critical ringworld mass it can be pretty relaxing. I also wonder if they fixed the bug where fanatical purifiers can join the war in heaven factions. I remember in 1.6 the war in heaven allowed me to join and then become leader of the non aligned faction, whilst remaining a fanatical purifier. I spent the entirety of the fleet budget on battleships with no ftl or weapons, a diplomatic armada which couldn't be used for anything nor did the AI have the sense to disband it nor ability to upgrade it. Upon destroying the FEs I left the nonaligned powers with their diplomatic gift, before returning to my ringworlds, content that their faction could not be a threat.
That feel when you literally have to choose between killing your entire species or working with alien animals at a .5 lightyear distance with no direct communications to retake the galaxy.
Post by: JimboM12 on March 03, 2018, 09:12:06 pm
I left the nonaligned powers with their diplomatic gift, before returning to my ringworlds, content that their faction could not be a threat.
that's an astounding bit of political weaponization, my hat is off to you
Post by: Flying Dice on March 03, 2018, 11:18:37 pm
That makes more sense for war weariness than warscore though.Warscore isn't a thing in the current patch. The percentage ticker is war exhaustion. You're trying to get your opponent to 100%.
And, if it is bugged, it doesn't seem to be totally arbitrary. I just ran a fast test game with invincible ships on and fleet battles counted as victories with little/no war exhaustion gain for the empire I controlled. It looks like there's just some wonkiness in how your casualties are weighted as far as determining WE gain and win/loss status.
Post by: Kot on March 04, 2018, 06:23:05 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 04, 2018, 08:52:20 am
I am very much offended by the removal of wormhole FTL.You can always go back and play an old version?
Post by: Radsoc on March 04, 2018, 11:05:22 am
I also ran the 2.0.2b with the enigmatic fortress fix mod, which solved all problems, but didn't seem to get the achievement.
If it disabled achievements, will achievements be reenabled once I disable it, or are they wrecked for the rest of the game?
Post by: Cruxador on March 04, 2018, 11:43:36 am
So I launched the game with 2.0.2b. Immediately started with -200 energy :P But I think that's good. I also noticed that adopting a tradition tree counts as a unity spent (don't remember if it was like that before).Yep, it was.
Quote
If it disabled achievements, will achievements be reenabled once I disable it, or are they wrecked for the rest of the game?I haven't tested it for Stellaris but I'm pretty certain that achievements are now turned off for good, since that's how it is in other Paradox games. If you earn an achievement fair and square, you'll have to give it to yourself using a utility program.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 04, 2018, 12:58:26 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on March 04, 2018, 02:38:07 pm
Post by: Putnam on March 04, 2018, 02:56:34 pm
I am very much offended by the removal of wormhole FTL.
Wormhole FTL was great, I agree. In fact, I would argue it was too great. Wormhole was only mildly more complicated than other forms of FTL (i.e. probably not good for a first game but fine for your second) but better by a wide margin. Your beginning choice was barely a choice at all: wormholes were simply better than warp or hyperlanes.
Post by: Cruxador on March 04, 2018, 04:10:05 pm
In a small game, maybe. In a bigger game your doomstack will get super slow.I am very much offended by the removal of wormhole FTL.
Wormhole FTL was great, I agree. In fact, I would argue it was too great. Wormhole was only mildly more complicated than other forms of FTL (i.e. probably not good for a first game but fine for your second) but better by a wide margin. Your beginning choice was barely a choice at all: wormholes were simply better than warp or hyperlanes.
Post by: Baffler on March 04, 2018, 05:09:21 pm
Post by: Wiles on March 04, 2018, 06:30:41 pm
That makes more sense for war weariness than warscore though.Weariness and exhaustion are synonymous. Warscore doesn't exist any more.
Agh, sorry, my mistake. I can't believe I didn't notice. I thought they had added war exhaustion on top of warscore.
Post by: Akura on March 05, 2018, 04:13:53 pm
That totally killed my desire to play. Hell, it's not like the battle losses are particularly hard to replace, most of it was ship damage and not ships destroyed. And I had at least twice their territory and plenty of high mineral-income mining outposts.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 05, 2018, 04:18:25 pm
Post by: Hanzoku on March 06, 2018, 10:10:47 am
It does say that, like the previous versions, the only wars you want to get into are ones you start yourself after your fleet and troop transports are already on the border, instead of having to spend months jumping in from the heartland.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on March 06, 2018, 10:33:04 am
The galaxy now hates me, but worth it. I can imagine my xenophile neighbors going wait, they did WHAT? upon hearing the news. Im probably being used as an example of why you cant trust the alien by xenophobes everywhere. The pops didnt even try to rebel, which has to be a bug.
Post by: Majestic7 on March 06, 2018, 04:53:29 pm
I kind of think that playing a hive with a swarm of vassals is kind of fun though. Especially if they are people you've enlightened, so it is kind of a really big guy with several pets.
Post by: PTTG?? on March 07, 2018, 03:21:39 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 07, 2018, 08:45:45 am
I installed a mod that ups the maximum number of starting civs. A tiny galaxy with 30+ civilizations is actually quite entertaining.
i wonder how many nearly-identical ones there are, though. more than a dozen has never seemed interesting to me because there are relatively few possibilities.
Post by: Kot on March 07, 2018, 08:53:21 am
I've heard that before and it's literally the shittiest thing you could come up with. Go back to play without the much needed improvements in other departments. I wouldn't even complain if they left it as optional, while hyperlanes being the default required for Ironman, or I dunno, let it be easily restorable with mods, which it isin't.I am very much offended by the removal of wormhole FTL.You can always go back and play an old version?
Post by: Hanzoku on March 07, 2018, 10:37:42 am
I'm not sure what you want. They literally took the other mods of travel out of the game to focus on hyperlanes. You don't get to pick and choose these things. You want the other improvements? Live with the hyperlanes. You want to play with wormholes? You can play the last version where they're available.
I don't know, you can bitch all you want about it, but Paradox had their reasons for making these changes, and it's not a simple on/off toggle.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 07, 2018, 01:03:37 pm
It's still disappointing that they didn't. The game was largely sold on the travel types making races play differently. It's like if Starcraft got an update where all buildings are constructed terran-style... And also a lot of vital UI and AI issues were patched. Going back to the broken version is a shitty option.
My friends and I do prefer most of the changes in this version, but it's fundamentally different in a lot of ways.
Post by: LoSboccacc on March 07, 2018, 01:11:08 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 07, 2018, 01:53:02 pm
Post by: Cruxador on March 07, 2018, 02:03:10 pm
I haven;t had much time to play into late game, can't you build stargates later?Only in designated locations.
Post by: Wiles on March 07, 2018, 02:29:36 pm
I haven;t had much time to play into late game, can't you build stargates later?Only in designated locations.
Unless something has changed since the release of 2.0 you can build your own gateways as well as rebuilding the ones you find. I didn't run into any limitations to where I could build them in my own space. (you do need the appropriate mega structure techs and ascension perk though)
Post by: ventuswings on March 07, 2018, 03:06:25 pm
I haven;t had much time to play into late game, can't you build stargates later?Only in designated locations.
Unless something has changed since the release of 2.0 you can build your own gateways as well as rebuilding the ones you find. I didn't run into any limitations to where I could build them in my own space. (you do need the appropriate mega structure techs and ascension perk though)
Don't you get jump drives anyway by that point? I haven't gone into 2.0 late-game yet.
Post by: Baffler on March 07, 2018, 03:33:34 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 07, 2018, 04:10:53 pm
Then your only option is to find or make a mod that alters the game to suit your taste, or get used to the changes. I don't see what good posting about how offended you are does, as if that matters at all.I've heard that before and it's literally the shittiest thing you could come up with. Go back to play without the much needed improvements in other departments. I wouldn't even complain if they left it as optional, while hyperlanes being the default required for Ironman, or I dunno, let it be easily restorable with mods, which it isin't.I am very much offended by the removal of wormhole FTL.You can always go back and play an old version?
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 07, 2018, 04:14:16 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 07, 2018, 04:16:31 pm
Because they paid for the game and are annoyed at how the changes impact their enjoyment of it?They can still play the game they paid for. It's the previous version. Being "offended" over a change in a video game is one of the most ridiculous things I can imagine. Deal with it, or play the old way, or mod it to fit your preference. Being offended serves no purpose and gets nothing accomplished.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 07, 2018, 04:43:45 pm
But if you revert, you're left with a buggy game that's designed to be fixed and expanded, but never will be.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 07, 2018, 04:47:11 pm
Except that Paradox sells its games on a reputation of continued support and expansion. The support part is being nice - they eventually patch the many bugs they ship with. But that's okay, because they do patch them eventually, and expand the mechanics more than almost any other developer. Even if you don't buy the expansions! It works out well.Paradox has an equally strong reputation for radically altering gameplay within their games. Anyone buying on reputation should be used to that.
But if you revert, you're left with a buggy game that's designed to be fixed and expanded, but never will be.
The change (not removal) of wormholes doesn't drastically affect gameplay balance, it just removes one form of customization. I'm sure there will be mods before long that add it back in, if not already out.
Post by: Flying Dice on March 07, 2018, 05:26:59 pm
I haven;t had much time to play into late game, can't you build stargates later?Only in designated locations.
Unless something has changed since the release of 2.0 you can build your own gateways as well as rebuilding the ones you find. I didn't run into any limitations to where I could build them in my own space. (you do need the appropriate mega structure techs and ascension perk though)
Don't you get jump drives anyway by that point? I haven't gone into 2.0 late-game yet.
Jump Drives come with a pretty hefty malus this patch though. They take 120 days to recharge and impose -50% damage and -50% sublight speed while recharging.
As for Wormhole FTL: you can build your own Gateways once you've studied them and researched the appropriate tech.
Post by: Culise on March 07, 2018, 06:43:47 pm
EDIT:
You can also mod the jump drive by tweaking the static modifiers: jump_drive_cooldown in the static modifiers governs the cooldown penalty, though I haven't located the actual cooldown period itself at a superficial glance. If you do that, though, you'll want to tweak the AI parameters governing jump willingness quite a bit, though. At present, it's rigged to avoid jumping its primary fleets into the black unless it has a significant overall force advantage; if you reduce the cooldown penalty, you should also try to reduce the force threshold as well. I'd also still recommend a dense hyperlane network even if you don't use hyperlanes at all, if only because so many other things use hyperlanes for adjacency purposes.
Post by: Damiac on March 09, 2018, 11:49:08 am
I think people are entitled to be annoyed when they bought a game with 3 different kinds of FTL, and then the devs well after release decide oh wait, no we've decided 1 FTL method is better. To go back to the Starcraft comparison, it's a bit like a couple years after release it's too hard to balance three distinct races, so now there's only protoss. But don't worry! You can always stick with the old version, and never play with anyone else again. Besides, some people say Protoss vs Protoss is the best way to play the game anyway, so this new version is objectively better.
Remember, stellaris is a game some people like to play multiplayer. Generally it's a lot easier to play multiplayer games at the latest version, it's the easiest way to ensure everyone has the same version. And with almost any game, why wouldn't you want the newest version? But now, the new version is a very different game, if you want to play stellaris with 3 FTL methods, you better hope you find other people to play with who also don't mind losing access to the new features that came with the change.
When I buy a game, I usually go with the current features to decide if I want the game. So I sort of kind of expect that the features in the game I bought will not be completely removed at a random time in the future when the devs decide they want this to be a different game. When the devs have a history of good support I assume this means I can overlook some bugs and strangeness, knowing the devs have a reputation for fixing this stuff. I don't usually assume this means they are going to decide the released game doesn't actually work as is, and change it to a different game.
On top of that, they've been lying (or somehow didn't realize they were wrong) all this time that the AI doesn't cheat, and in fact it cheats hardcore by paying 1/2 maintenance costs. So there's another feature the game was sold on, but this one never existed, so at least they didn't take it away from us... Of course they loved wielding this claim as a "Git gud" stick on their forums.
So either the game I bought (Stellaris with 3 FTL methods) has been abandoned (This is the case if I decide to downgrade to 1.9 or whatever) and I will never receive a single fix to that game, or the game I bought (Stellaris with 3 FTL methods) has been taken away from me, and replaced with this new game (Stellaris with hyperlanes only). Either way, paradox has screwed me, and not lived up to their reputation.
Post by: Mephansteras on March 09, 2018, 01:03:09 pm
Had a rough first start with 2.0, ended up abandoning that game after going into the Beta and having that shift a few things. It was already a bit messed up as I'd made a few early strategic errors due to not fully understanding the new systems. And I was using a race that is, inexplicably, bad. No idea why, they ok on paper. But neither myself nor the AI ever does well with them. No idea why. (Democratic Egalaterian/materialist/xenophile natural engineer croc people with syncretic crab people as proles. Not min/maxed sure, but no idea why they're terrible)
Anyway, started a new game with Space Dwarves. Space Dwarves are awesome. Militaristic Fanatic-Materialist Dictatorship with Mining Guilds and Functional Architecture. They are Industrious, Traditional, Enduring, Slow breeders, and Sedentary.
Started out in the middle of a cluster of nations east of Galactic Center on an Elliptical galaxy. Managed to keep all of them on at least neutral terms as I expanded around and managed to claim a few chunks of space with habitable planets. Also, conquered Earth very early on as it was going through WWII. Well...probably in the 50's or 60's by the time I actually conquered them, but whatever. So I had Dwarves and Humans (Alpine and Continental) and a whole host of suitable planets for them.
Bad news, though, both Marauder clans are very nearby. One was right near Galactic Center but on the other side of a neighbor. The other off somewhat near the western rim of the Galaxy with nothing but empty space between me and them. Fortunately, with no Rivals for the entire early game I only had to bribe them to leave me alone twice. And one of those times was with food, which the Earth makes abundant amounts of.
Looking at the hyperlane map I determined the best chokepoints I could and dedicatedly expanded out to claim my Empire. I didn't get an optimal set-up, as one of my neighbors expanded a bit quicker then I could in the West, but overall I was pleased. Knowing that I could face a great threat Mid-Game from the Khan, I set my focus on a very Dwarvenly pursuit: Fortifications. My tech went into Star Bases when available. I took the new Ascension Perk that added to the Starbase Cap. I took the two chokepoints I had settled on for my Eastern Front and I built them up to be strong enough to take on a Marauder Raiding fleet all on their own.
I kept peace with my neighbors, occasionally spending influence to boost diplomacy and exporting food all across the Galaxy (for credits mostly, as I had money issues for quite a while). The Grand Hall was strong, and our mineral wealth let us continue to build and build safe within our borders as the other empires struggled and fought around us. Eventually I created a Federation and firmed up the alliances around me. It was not until then, finally embroiled in the politics of the outside world, that we gained a Rival. An Inferior Rival, but a Rival nonetheless. They were the Western neighbors of one of my Federation Members. And these Rivals had claimed many systems from my Federation Member over the years during several wars of Conquest. I decided a war to liberate those planets was on my list of things to do.
As a footnote, I was amused to note that every single Federation Member has Purple in their colors.
Not too long after that I hit the tipping point of power, and my Empire started to rocket past all around me. I went from simply being one of the most powerful normal empires to the most powerful normal empire. Then I moved past the Marauder Clans. Only the Fallen Empires are stronger than the Dwarves. For now.
Safe and a bit bored, with only my new Habitat Construction to keep me occupied, we made a meaningless claim on the one system bordering us and the Rival and declared war. We sent two of our fleets down to punish them for their past atrocities. A third I kept in reserve should Marauders strike, due to the time it would take to pull a fleet back. We pushed through their defenses with barely any losses of our own and handily took back many, many systems that had been the rightful territory of our Federation Ally. The Dwarven Empire had been at peace for centuries, yes, but the Galaxy now knew our Might. We had not grown soft in our Halls.
So there I left it last night. The war over, justice prevailing, our lands and Federation Secure. Still solidly Mid-Game, but ready for anything the mid-game can throw at us.
It is time to prepare for the End-Game, whatever that might bring.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 09, 2018, 01:19:04 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on March 09, 2018, 01:49:33 pm
Post by: Paul on March 09, 2018, 02:36:23 pm
I built up my initial world for crazy research and rushed droids tech, then colonize two neighboring planets (which were crazy lucky, they're size 24 and 25 and only 1 jump away each). I built those into mining bases manned completely by droids as I rushed the habitat tech. I found living metal under the ocean of one of the ice planets in Tiblic, so I was able to cut my cost of building habitats down by 20%. Things were going pretty amazing, despite being boxed in by a fanatical purifier pretty early on. I found an advanced cruiser from an event right at the start, and that held off early hostilities and soundly beat all the early pirates. I managed to squeeze two science ships out of the area before the purifier boxed me in, and I have been carefully exploring the galaxy with them since.
For the last 15 years or so I keep getting Cybrex artifacts popping up in Yeedixa. I ended up getting 4 of those, which finished off my 6. Suddenly Cybrex homeworld, right beside me. I'm already only 4 years from developing mega engineering tech (I recently picked up master builders) and then I can claim that ruined ringworld and start rebuilding it.
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198064873856/screenshot/913540961404661960
Not only that, but I keep finding living metal EVERYWHERE. The one right by me, and 4 others across the galaxy as my ships explore. My last game I explored the whole map and never found any, in this game it's freaking everywhere. Other empires are going to end up getting most of them, though - I can't get any construction ships out. I mean I could focus on building a big navy and fight back the fanatic purifiers, they're only overwhelming in fleet capacity and power (lol), but I'm happy being all reclusive over here in a corner until I get jump drives and gate travel.
Anyone else have games where everything just seems to go right?
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 09, 2018, 03:54:11 pm
I was also annoyed with the FTL changes, especially as I had a game in progress when the new version hit. Who the hell breaks save compatibility in a released game? I mean, sure, the save loaded, but it was completely unplayable. The changes to... well everything meant my economy didn't work, my empire wasn't even connected, etc.It was well publicized that the 2.0 update breaks all the things and they do not endorse bringing saves forward from 1.9. I believe a little splash screen even pops up the first time you load 2.0 which tells you this, and goes over the changes. You can still go back to the 1.9 update if you want and finish out that game.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on March 09, 2018, 04:06:53 pm
There's a popup at the start of the game when you update that tells you what the update does, that it breaks your saves, and how to revert back to version 1.9 if you want to.
Post by: Culise on March 09, 2018, 04:12:27 pm
Post by: Kot on March 09, 2018, 04:20:56 pm
IMO it's just generally a step backwards. They removed something that made the game more interesting and while not neccesarily unique, it made it less "stock space 4X with hyperlanes".
Post by: Mephansteras on March 09, 2018, 05:04:26 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 09, 2018, 05:14:55 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on March 09, 2018, 05:41:15 pm
Oi, does it matter which precursor chain you discover? Is there any substantial difference between the rewards?
The Cybrex has a better home world then some others. Not sure if there is any other major difference.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 09, 2018, 06:24:25 pm
Oi, does it matter which precursor chain you discover? Is there any substantial difference between the rewards?
The Cybrex has a better home world then some others. Not sure if there is any other major difference.
Most of them are just big fat research and resource rewards, and some lore.
The Cybrex gives you crazy ring worlds and living metal. It's the best by far. Makes the others feel weak.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 09, 2018, 07:10:48 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 09, 2018, 07:27:04 pm
Post by: Paul on March 09, 2018, 08:25:56 pm
I think I'm going to try life seeded with either mechanist or barbaric despoilers. Seems like an easy way to get around the main problem of lifeseeded.
It doesn't allow mechanist for some reason (not sure why). It doesn't take that long to get robots, though - the time saved isn't worth the loss of a civic anyway IMHO. You still have to get droids before you can colonize.
Starting on a 25 tile Gaia world is only really useful if you're planning on building tall. If you're going to rush right out and raid neighbors and take their people and colonize all the worlds, it's probably not worth the civic. The huge science production of a 25 tile Gaia homeworld without needing additional systems and planets can really get your tall game going, though.
IMO they need to move these two new civics (life seeded and post apocalyptic) to the "Starting Solar System" tab. Or have a new start section. Neither of those are really worth a civic - civics that could be getting you 10% more minerals or 15% unity or 15% naval capacity or -20% edict cost. It's a fun start and makes things quite different (and life seeded is good for crazy tall builds). Or if they were making a starting conditions tab, Syncretic Evolution and Mechanist could go there too and I'm sure they could come up with a lot of different starting states. Start as marauders, or nomads, or a lost colony, etc.
BTW, you can't gene mod the Gaia preference away - even with evolutionary mastery. So not only do you permanently lose a civic, but your main pop permanently gets -100% habitability for everything other than Gaia worlds, ringworlds, and habitats. A big trade off for starting on a 25 tile world.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 09, 2018, 09:28:51 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 09, 2018, 10:14:37 pm
Instead of separating it into "starting civic" or moving it into solar system, just fucking delete all the bad civics. I hate that there are insanely generic civics like +10% minerals and -20% edict cost and +1 research alternatives.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 09, 2018, 10:16:21 pm
Post by: dennislp3 on March 10, 2018, 12:04:31 am
For instance having that extra research alternative sounds silly, but early game it can help you rush a certain path or set of technologies by giving you a higher chance to stumble upon something.
I tend to go with something like that early, then drop it later in favor of extra minerals or unity or what have you when +10% makes a sizable difference (and research alternatives are less important)
Post by: Paul on March 10, 2018, 12:25:26 am
In other news, I just realized that with robot modding (the last time I got into the game seriously was way back in like July of last year before robomodding existed) and synthetics, your synths are better at everything no matter how specialized your biological pops are. Best possible biological pop with the ascended trait that gets +5% and the other that gets +15% on my energy producing habitat gives 12.13 energy. A synth with just the one + energy trait and the same happiness level, which I could do with basic tech and no ascension path, produces 12.72. On top of that I can easily throw on durable for -25% consumer goods usage. And they consume energy, which if I was machine ascended would get a big reduction in usage.
I love the roleplay of the biological ascension path, modifying my species and collecting other species that come to me as refugees and modifying them to fill certain roles. But mechanically, biological ascension sucks now in comparison lol. I'm almost better off just ignoring all ascension paths and using the two slots for cool ascension perks and just making migration illegal and building robots everywhere but the homeworld.
Makes me think I should play a synthetic race, lol.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on March 10, 2018, 04:07:10 pm
Post by: umiman on March 10, 2018, 05:40:29 pm
Post by: Digital Hellhound on March 10, 2018, 06:11:07 pm
This whole "you must build a station on every single system you want to claim" shit is utter bollocks.
It took some getting used to, but I like it a lot more than the imprecise growing borders of the past. One of the best additions of 2.0, in my opinion. Much easier to plan and strategize with this kind of expansion.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 10, 2018, 06:21:55 pm
Literally asking for a friend, I'm still playing other things until these serious changes reach "release" status.
Kinda hoping that not-warscore/war exhaustion makes sense when I do find time to play this again.
(also hoping there's a zoom key, but I'm resigned to that trivial change being ignored)
Post by: umiman on March 10, 2018, 06:23:37 pm
But are you still expected to "swiss-cheese" your empire by removing outposts?No, but your borders will never grow organically. Each station = 1 system. You will never delete them and they have no upkeep cost.
Literally asking for a friend, I'm still playing other things until these serious changes reach "release" status.
Kinda hoping that not-warscore/war exhaustion makes sense when I do find time to play this again.
(also hoping there's a zoom key, but I'm resigned to that trivial change being ignored)
Post by: Draignean on March 10, 2018, 06:26:06 pm
Agreed. Though, as a minor change, I wish you could just do a right click on a system to que up the nearest/least busy constructor to set up a station, instead of having to go grab the constructor. Again, a minor change, but it'd help to alleviate a couple extra clicks of micro when growing your empire.This whole "you must build a station on every single system you want to claim" shit is utter bollocks.
It took some getting used to, but I like it a lot more than the imprecise growing borders of the past. One of the best additions of 2.0, in my opinion. Much easier to plan and strategize with this kind of expansion.
Post by: TheBronzePickle on March 10, 2018, 06:33:08 pm
I was worried about the removal of jump drives and wormholes, but I'm happy at what they've done with the new system... sort of.
My one major condemnation of it is that the current balance is extremely heavily skewed towards building tall. Building a wide empire can net you a lot of resources, but critically gimps your development. Unity and Research are squeezed hard, meaning that you end up behind everyone else, and your extra resources don't make up for this in any meaningful way because technology and traditions grant huge boosts to production.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 10, 2018, 06:34:16 pm
I did glean that the "territory bubble" system has been replaced by specifically claiming systems. And initially those outposts had no upkeep, but don't they now? Re:But are you still expected to "swiss-cheese" your empire by removing outposts?No, but your borders will never grow organically. Each station = 1 system. You will never delete them and they have no upkeep cost.
Literally asking for a friend, I'm still playing other things until these serious changes reach "release" status.
Kinda hoping that not-warscore/war exhaustion makes sense when I do find time to play this again.
(also hoping there's a zoom key, but I'm resigned to that trivial change being ignored)
* Increased energy upkeep of all Starbase sizes by +1. Outposts now cost 1 energy maintenance. (Why?)
Just in case anyone was so foolish as to suppose that the unity change might make it more viable to claim everything within your borders instead of making a swiss cheese empire.
And:
While that's true, research costs increasing proportionate to territory isn't a particularly unfair mechanic. If it helps, parse it as including the cost of retooling and distributing developments throughout your empire. If you want fast research, play small.That's a good theory and that's how it's worked in the past, but at this point, dismantling the the less efficient outposts (creating the "swiss cheese empire") is giving you upwards of 20% research bonus for only about a 4% decrease to energy/minerals in a now somewhat famous example before the beta patch. Thoe specific numbers were aiming for an optimal ratio, so the exact numbers can be different depending on how zealous you are in purging inefficient outposts, but though the unity numbers are better now, the energy has only gotten worse. And science progresses you into the late game, a big difference in science takes a whole lot longer to rectify than a big difference in minerals - one good war can do that.
[SNIP]
Sorry if those mechanics already got patched out. I *am* honestly expecting Paradox to be watching and adjusting these new mechanics, since I have real faith in them.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 10, 2018, 06:36:35 pm
But are you still expected to "swiss-cheese" your empire by removing outposts?As of next version the whole 'swiss cheese' strategy will be soft punished. Pirate spawns will be increased or decreased based on your territory's level of consolidation and defense. Strong defenses and no gaps in territory means fewer pirate spawns, gaps and weak defenses means more.
Literally asking for a friend, I'm still playing other things until these serious changes reach "release" status.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 10, 2018, 06:38:49 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on March 10, 2018, 06:45:30 pm
I don't think it's a good or final solution.
But are you still expected to "swiss-cheese" your empire by removing outposts?No, but your borders will never grow organically. Each station = 1 system. You will never delete them and they have no upkeep cost.
Literally asking for a friend, I'm still playing other things until these serious changes reach "release" status.
Kinda hoping that not-warscore/war exhaustion makes sense when I do find time to play this again.
(also hoping there's a zoom key, but I'm resigned to that trivial change being ignored)
I delete systems all the time, and in the latest beta patch they do have an upkeep cost (which makes me want to delete them even more.)
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 10, 2018, 06:46:30 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 10, 2018, 06:50:12 pm
Post by: Akura on March 10, 2018, 07:09:14 pm
But are you still expected to "swiss-cheese" your empire by removing outposts?As of next version the whole 'swiss cheese' strategy will be soft punished. Pirate spawns will be increased or decreased based on your territory's level of consolidation and defense. Strong defenses and no gaps in territory means fewer pirate spawns, gaps and weak defenses means more.
Literally asking for a friend, I'm still playing other things until these serious changes reach "release" status.
The recent game I was playing, I intentionally left one system adjacent to my capital unclaimed specifically to spawn pirates. It gives my fleets something to practice on. Said system is completely cut off from anywhere else, so there's no chance of any xenos from trying to pop in and say hi from there.
Post by: Cruxador on March 10, 2018, 07:14:18 pm
But are you still expected to "swiss-cheese" your empire by removing outposts?Yes. The 2.0.2 beta is a bit different than 2.0 because the penalty to unity is reduced, but they also added a penalty to energy, and the penalty to science, which is what mattered most, is unchanged.
Literally asking for a friend, I'm still playing other things until these serious changes reach "release" status.
Quote
Kinda hoping that not-warscore/war exhaustion makes sense when I do find time to play this again.It doesn't really, but they're continuously making small changes and it no longer results in auto-peace, so it's at least better than it was.
(also hoping there's a zoom key, but I'm resigned to that trivial change being ignored)
I feel like you probably failed to understand something. As of right now, both beta and not, the optimal thing to do is dismantle outposts in any system that doesn't make enough profit to overcome the penalties from number of systems - there's nothing called upkeep unless you're in the beta (which is available as an opt-in to anyone) but that doesn't change the fact that there's a downside to having them which must be overcome, and which often isn't.But are you still expected to "swiss-cheese" your empire by removing outposts?No, but your borders will never grow organically. Each station = 1 system. You will never delete them and they have no upkeep cost.
Literally asking for a friend, I'm still playing other things until these serious changes reach "release" status.
Kinda hoping that not-warscore/war exhaustion makes sense when I do find time to play this again.
(also hoping there's a zoom key, but I'm resigned to that trivial change being ignored)
Sorry if those mechanics already got patched out. I *am* honestly expecting Paradox to be watching and adjusting these new mechanics, since I have real faith in them.Keep in mind that Paradox has multiple teams. If this was Doomdark's team from the height of CK2's development, I'd agree with you. Wiz's team, though, tends to favor kind of fiddly gamey solutions to things that I find unsatisfying, and balance issues like this may be eventually rectified but what replaces it might not be that great either.
Well, there's two problems with that. For one thing, you'll have better defenses on average if you have a swiss cheese empire since you'll have fortifications at chokepoints but don't have lots of unfortified hinterland. But more importantly, pirates aren't actually a bad thing. Destroying pirates awards you resources and gives your admirals experience, and it's easy to do if you just leave a few police fleets at strategic locations during peacetime. It may involve more micromanaging and less fun, but from an optimization perspective it's definitely not a punishment.But are you still expected to "swiss-cheese" your empire by removing outposts?As of next version the whole 'swiss cheese' strategy will be soft punished. Pirate spawns will be increased or decreased based on your territory's level of consolidation and defense. Strong defenses and no gaps in territory means fewer pirate spawns, gaps and weak defenses means more.
Literally asking for a friend, I'm still playing other things until these serious changes reach "release" status.
I've not tried it out yet to see how punishing it is, but the actual mechanical reasons why you would do it (systems have a hilariously huge penalty to ownership in the mid and late game) is still in place, so it's going to be a seesaw on how much you want to get punished by one system or another.The penalty isn't really higher later on - in fact each system increases your penalty by a proportionately greater amount when you have few systems. There are two main reasons why it's generally considered advisable to build up first and then delete later. One of them is the way influence costs are calculated. It's much cheaper to build an outpost if it's adjacent to a system that you already inhabit, and the influence cost just goes up further the further away a system is. The second is that space mining, which doesn't scale, can be an important and useful source of minerals early on, and the beginning is also when you're building a lot of infrastructure and fleets up to your capacity. This utility falls off a lot in the mid-game when most of what you'd want to build is built, and planetary production increases substantially. However, there are people who advocate disregarding these issues and just beelining for chokepoints and not bothering with anything along the way until you've already got your zone blocked off. This is not only viable, if you prioritize things that make your defensive stations better (such as the relevant ascension perk) it'll put you in a very strong position for the rest of the game. But the chance that you miss another alien empire within your area is higher, and you'll have difficulty paying for development within your borders and also providing a fleet bigger than a pirate-slayer, so that'll be a bit of a problem.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 10, 2018, 07:46:09 pm
Makes sense that if mining technology improves planetary mining it would have some effect on asteroid mining as well.
Post by: Cruxador on March 10, 2018, 08:28:44 pm
Yknow what would solve all of this silly outpost flappery? Researchable tech that improves (marginally) space-based resource and science generation. Maybe .5 min/energy/sci per upg.Wiz is ideologically against that since he thinks it makes planets matter too little. But yeah, theoretically a system should be "good enough" to be worth keeping in all regards if it gives three to five points of science, one point of energy, and like half a point of unity (as of the beta) at most reasonable empire sizes and common research income levels.
Makes sense that if mining technology improves planetary mining it would have some effect on asteroid mining as well.
Post by: Mephansteras on March 10, 2018, 08:31:33 pm
I also fill in all of my space and leave no gaps. But that's partially my preference to have strong borders and no pirates and partly an RP thing with the space dwarves being very defensive minded.
Do note that several of the Traditions reduce the penalties for having more planets and reduce the cost/maintenance of stations so growing big is quite feasible with the right planning.
I'm not sure if the AI is getting any discounts on system maintenance, but they seem to have grown fairly reasonably for most of the game. They did push out a bit faster than me early on, but I did focus on a bit of early economic growth rather than rapid expansion, so not sure how much cheating was going on there. As it is, I was about on par for most of the nations near me until late game when my Federation started smacking everyone around us and absorbing them. Except for me, since I've been surrounded by federation members for a long time. So I've gone tall and built a dozen Habitats or so. Currently working on a ringworld as a background project right now. Dwarves do Megaprojects, so I went all in on those.
I *really* like the claim system for warfare. It feels more worthwhile to do small fights to gain bits of territory, and nations gaining/losing territory works much more organically.
Right now we've got the space invader bugs crisis munching on the other end of the galaxy from me, and I'm planning on how to defeat them if they get this far. They might not, there is an Awakened Empire right near them now who might solve the problem for us. If not, I've got Jump Drives and Gateways and the strongest non-AE fleet in the game. And a Doomsday device (neutron painter) that should make quick work of infected planets.
Most fun I've had in Stellaris in a long time!
Post by: Cruxador on March 10, 2018, 08:40:59 pm
Do note that several of the Traditions reduce the penalties for having more planets and reduce the cost/maintenance of stations so growing big is quite feasible with the right planning.Neither the penalties for planets or the cost/maintenance for stations are the problem though. It's the upkeep of stations. And there's no such problem as "you can't grow big", it's that it's strictly better for you to not claim systems you could claim, which have no downside that should logically exist, but only an artificial downside due to game mechanics.
Quote
I'm not sure if the AI is getting any discounts on system maintenanceThe thing that there was drama about was fleet maintenance. That was what was demonstrated to be the case after Wiz said that the AI doesn't cheat on Normal difficulty. It could be the case that they also cheat regarding system maintenance, but nobody has proved that to my knowledge.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on March 11, 2018, 09:36:54 am
Post by: Hanzoku on March 11, 2018, 10:40:27 am
Post by: Mephansteras on March 11, 2018, 11:26:01 am
Post by: Hanzoku on March 11, 2018, 12:13:39 pm
Post by: Paul on March 11, 2018, 06:18:43 pm
Let me know if you see any glaring errors or if you find it helpful. I had fun writing it. I probably need to improve the formatting, but find the formatting in steam to be a bit clunky.
Post by: umiman on March 12, 2018, 11:20:16 am
That being said, I still think being forced to slowly build fucking stations everywhere at the start of every game is idiotic and pointless busywork. There has to be a better solution. And I still think there should be some kind of natural border growth.
Maybe make it so outposts can be upgraded so they spread influence over two systems and more as they level up. That would also alleviate the problem of wars where you slowly have to attack each frigging outpost along the way. Make like core "provinces" and things should be less dumb.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 12, 2018, 12:17:42 pm
That said, as far as wars go I generally just have two much smaller fleets to take their outposts with. I don't usually war until mid game, so a couple of 500 fleets isn't hard to scrounge up. Keeps the AI split apart too, since they often end up sending their reinforcements to retake their outposts instead of fighting your main fleets.
Also hey, fun but obvious fact, you can disassemble mining/science stations that you are occupying without consequence. I fought a short war to take 2 very valuable systems (one of em had 10 phy/8 soc/8 eng) and ended up just deleting 12-15 stations of his to hobble him in the future since he was a warlike neighbor.
Post by: Paul on March 12, 2018, 03:43:15 pm
Post by: umiman on March 12, 2018, 07:20:13 pm
I was just minding my business, spamming habitat stations everywhere when bam. You win. Wow, thanks game. I didn't even do anything to deserve it.
Post by: Baffler on March 12, 2018, 08:10:17 pm
I use fast corvette fleets outfitted with afterburners to take outposts while my main fleet (destroyers or battleships/titans depending on how far along I am) take the larger starbases and defended positions and help my ground forces take the planets. When facing their main fleet I include the corvettes too since they counter enemy corvettes better, but the battleship/titan fleet does a great job of pounding down citadels and defense platforms. I can usually take all the basic outposts before I've finished invading the worlds.
This is basically how I do it, but the outpost capping fleets are usually a cuiser with a trio of destroyer escorts for 10 fleet cap, with special classes of both for that role. It's more expensive than a corvette squad but it gives them a bit of staying power. They won't be capturing big fortified stations but they can usually grab more lightly defended areas, and maybe more importantly intercept small groups of enemy reinforcements, without taking any losses where an unlucky corvette might end up falling out of formation or being destroyed entirely.
Actually I don't really use corvettes much at all in this version, though I feel I should mention I don't have synthetic dawn or apocalypse. The only real advantage they have over destroyers is that they can fit a missile, so I just use them as torpedo boats and have the actual fleet screen be destroyers equipped to fight destroyers and corvettes plus some point defense (although I'll remove the PD if the enemy isn't using fighters or missiles.) I use battleships as carriers for the most part, so they get artillery type weapons and only have a small portion of them. Cruisers outfitted with artillery are also in there, but they're outnumbered by cruisers with broadside configurations. The ratio ends up being about 1:3:1:6:1 of CV:CA:CL:DD:TB. I don't know how that compares as a strategy to others, but it does decently against the AI who seem to prefer to have about the same number of each hull size. The AI also doesn't seem to bother all that much with point defense so Macross Missile Massacre seems like it might work out pretty well, but I haven't bothered to test it out yet.
So how does everyone else set up their fleets?
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 12, 2018, 08:14:23 pm
Fun fact, point defense prioritizes strike craft. A few strike craft can go a long way in a missile/torpedo heavy offensive loadout.
Post by: umiman on March 12, 2018, 09:12:27 pm
It's either missiles, giant-ass lasers, or giant cannons (in a battery).
Don't like the looks of little lasers unless they're like... hmm... Sword of the Stars phasers.
Post by: Paul on March 13, 2018, 10:25:38 am
I kind of like Giga Cannon/Neutron Torpedo battleships. They suck vs smaller ships but they can melt stations like crazy.
Against fallen empires and very late game battles if I've let a game run so long that the AI is stacking repeatable tech (I did it once by turtling up in a corner on impossible, lol) I like Battleships with focused arc emitters and cloud lightning. Especially against fallen empires you're facing something like 10k shields, 5k armor, 5k hulls - so while you're doing half the damage of other weapons, you only have 1/4 of the hitpoints to burn through and can start getting kills and triggering retreats really early in the battle.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 13, 2018, 12:23:58 pm
Post by: Paul on March 13, 2018, 12:31:38 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 13, 2018, 12:35:29 pm
With the new fleet manager you can just hit the reinforce button.
This! Unless it bugs out. It sometimes fails to realize that a fleet is in fact full/already reinforced.
Also, my current setup involves plasma cannons and autocannons, with various lightning guns on my battleships for long-range.
Post by: Cruxador on March 13, 2018, 01:30:56 pm
This happens if the fleet has ship designs different from what the fleet manager says it's supposed to, which can happen any time you upgrade ships. It's pretty easy to work around if you just don't upgrade and reinforce at the same time, although having to work around it can still be annoying.With the new fleet manager you can just hit the reinforce button.
This! Unless it bugs out. It sometimes fails to realize that a fleet is in fact full/already reinforced.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 13, 2018, 01:50:33 pm
This happens if the fleet has ship designs different from what the fleet manager says it's supposed to, which can happen any time you upgrade ships. It's pretty easy to work around if you just don't upgrade and reinforce at the same time, although having to work around it can still be annoying.With the new fleet manager you can just hit the reinforce button.
This! Unless it bugs out. It sometimes fails to realize that a fleet is in fact full/already reinforced.
That explains it. I guess at some point they'll make it possible to upg/reinforce at the same time, or maybe you can't upgrade while reinforcing or some such.
Post by: PTTG?? on March 13, 2018, 01:55:27 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 13, 2018, 02:28:45 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 13, 2018, 02:31:49 pm
With the new fleet manager you can just hit the reinforce button.
Still fewer clicks to go with larger ships. Fewer clicks in initial fleet manager setup, fewer times clicking reinforce (you'll always lose a corvette or two, but there are fewer engagements that can kill 1 whole battleship).
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 13, 2018, 03:48:57 pm
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on March 13, 2018, 06:02:34 pm
Trade stations are so good when going wide, I don't understand how you guys can not be swimming in cash.
Might be going for a heavy focus on Shipyards/Anchorages or are swiss-cheesing and therefore not getting the energy from Stars plus the +1 Starbase per 20 owned systems you are getting?
Post by: Mephansteras on March 13, 2018, 06:06:43 pm
Now that I'm late game I dump energy all over the place and still routinely hit resource cap for it. Pity the trade enclaves only let you do a 100->50 energy to minerals monthly trade now instead of the giant 10000-5000 lump trades you used to be able to do. Would help a lot with the excesses I have.
Post by: Culise on March 13, 2018, 08:20:17 pm
Trade stations are so good when going wide, I don't understand how you guys can not be swimming in cash.My settings typically include turning the habitable worlds multiplier to 0.5x or so, sometimes lower. Trade stations require an inhabited world or traders' enclave in the system. This cuts back severely on how many trade stations I can pop out.
That said, I always make starbases in inhabited systems into trading centers for that reason. Anchorages fit best in uninhabited systems not on the front lines.
Post by: umiman on March 14, 2018, 02:55:01 am
There's a few issues:
1. It takes a shittonne to even get to the point to research it. We're talking it requires its own unity ascension slot alongside endgame tech alongside more tech to research after both of those.
2. The actual ship is super weak and super slow. And can't fight.
3. It takes in-game YEARS to charge up. Then after charging up at a Snorlax's pace, it then again takes eons to actually fire. Yes, this stupid weapon has two charge up times, both taking way too long.
In the same time just for the thing to fire, you can hire 30 armies and invade the planet.
So honestly I can only see the use of this being to deny a planet to everyone. Not particularly sure what circumstances would need this as you could easily use such a spot for yourself and it's not like at this stage of the game you even care about tech or unity maluses. Maybe if the enemy planet had like.... 20 fortresses on it with 60 garrison armies?
I dunno about the other doomsday weapons. Maybe they're more useful. Unlocking the ascension perk does give you nice CBs against everyone, but also gives everyone CBs against you.
Post by: Paul on March 14, 2018, 09:06:56 am
The charge/fire time is kind of needed so you can't just go and glass a bunch of worlds while their fleet is flying your way. But it would be nice if it was at least a badass ship for fleet combat too. Make it like 3 titans or something.
Post by: umiman on March 14, 2018, 09:42:41 am
This is just Stellaris's usual imbecillic balancing decisions. "Hurr game must be balanced... We multiplayer eSports now".
It's not like the AI even gives a shit when you're priming and firing the weapon. It's not like they will plan a desperate response or rally the worlds to save their planet. You just sit there for an obnoxious amount of time.
If an ICBM took 12 months to reach a target, nobody would ever use it. The Death Star isn't awesome because it takes years to charge. A superweapon should be fearsome because it's a superweapon, it doesn't need to be fucking balanced.
The whole point of the weapon in the game is to end the fucking game. They have no problem with a psychic event on the game wiping out the entire Galaxy but oh no... Gotta balance mah planet destroyers.
Post by: Mephansteras on March 14, 2018, 10:01:54 am
Other than that...yeah, not too sure what use it has. Maybe good against hiveminds, since you can clean off the pops rather than waiting for them to die off after you colonize it? Though that doesn't save you much time unless you have a colony ship ready to go once the planet is clear.
Overall...I'm underwhelmed. I'd rather they balance it by having it have a cooldown in between when it can be fired rather than having it take years to actually fire. Make it more strategic on when to use the superweapon.
Post by: Paul on March 14, 2018, 03:12:09 pm
Post by: Culise on March 14, 2018, 03:29:35 pm
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on March 14, 2018, 04:02:37 pm
Don't need a delay in Sword of the Stars, Sins of a Solar Empire, Master of Orion, Star Wars Empire at War, Distant Worlds, Galciv 2, etc etc etc
This is just Stellaris's usual imbecillic balancing decisions. "Hurr game must be balanced... We multiplayer eSports now".
It's not like the AI even gives a shit when you're priming and firing the weapon. It's not like they will plan a desperate response or rally the worlds to save their planet. You just sit there for an obnoxious amount of time.
The AI might not, but a player would (and hell, who's to say the AI won't in the future?). This isn't a single player only game, after all, and if they had made the thing instant, can you imagine the bitching that would have resulted?
And of course the game needs to be balanced. Not due to the multiplayer esports, but for the simple fact of reducing RNG screwing you completely.
They have no problem with a psychic event on the game wiping out the entire Galaxy but oh no... Gotta balance mah planet destroyers.
If you are referring ot the End of the Cycle, that can be fought off as long as you aren't the one to trigger it. It is of course quite difficult, but it can happen.
Post by: Teneb on March 14, 2018, 04:07:00 pm
Post by: umiman on March 14, 2018, 05:42:14 pm
So meh. Whatever. Another stupid decision in Paradox's increasingly large bucket of stupid decisions.
Post by: TalonisWolf on March 15, 2018, 12:34:44 am
You see, early on, I saw an unidentified research vessel and decided I'd blow it up, slowing down whoever that was for a bit. Turns out they were an neighbor with the perfect ethos to turn into an ally... but I couldn't because of my thoughtless actions. I shrugged it off and went on with things.
A few decades later, someone hires the raiders to come at me, forcing me to run around with a 2.1k fleet avoiding a 5.1k fleet while trying to lure them to a Starhold. Mere days after that, the guys I'd messed with before first contact- remember them- declared war on me, answering who had hired them.
Their fleets were about equal to mine. The ONLY advantage I have is that I have researched Starholds and they do not, plus I have researched up to cruisers and they haven't. In my own home systems, just against them, I'd be able to hold them off easily. With this raider fleet thrown in... if I lose, I'll accept it as karma biting me for my cruelty.
This sort of thing is why I play Stellaris. It isn't perfect- arguably it isn't finished- but it manages to be frickin' amazing anyways.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 15, 2018, 10:19:43 am
Given some of the horror stories I've seen/heard with the beta, I'm on board with this change. War Exhaustion needs a lot of tweaking still but at least Paradox is working on it.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 15, 2018, 10:38:50 am
Post by: Cruxador on March 15, 2018, 10:47:50 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 15, 2018, 10:48:56 am
So... Worst of both worlds basically.Stellaris design philosophy in a nutshell
Post by: Mephansteras on March 15, 2018, 11:08:22 am
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on March 15, 2018, 11:23:59 am
Forced Status Quo with War Exhaustion is here to stay. (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-108-2-0-post-release-support-part-1.1079788/)
Given some of the horror stories I've seen/heard with the beta, I'm on board with this change. War Exhaustion needs a lot of tweaking still but at least Paradox is working on it.
Haven't been paying too much attention to the paradox forums. Care to give some examples?
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 15, 2018, 11:51:19 am
Basically they couldn't find a good middle ground for the penalties at 100% WE. Knowing how a lot of people play Stellaris, and other Paradox games, I doubt it exists too. Either people are going to ignore the short-term penalties for long-term gains or get stuck in frustrating situations where they want to make peace but can't do so without losing most of their empire.
Post by: Kanil on March 15, 2018, 12:05:39 pm
That said, making the utterly idiotic outcome rare doesn't mean the outcome stops being idiotic.
Post by: Criptfeind on March 15, 2018, 01:43:59 pm
You should have been able to negate the WE penalty by offering Status Quo to the enemy, or not get them unless the enemy offers Status Quo to you and you refuse. That way you preserve the ability to keep on fighting if it's worth it in penalties to you, but no one can lock you into penalties just because they aren't ready to end the war yet and you can't surrender because they are fanatic purifiers or something.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 15, 2018, 04:13:40 pm
Spoiler: Pointless Rambling (click to show/hide)
Post by: Egan_BW on March 15, 2018, 04:27:31 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on March 15, 2018, 04:28:37 pm
That could also work but I think goes against what Wiz et all are trying to do with WE. Namely differentiate between short brawls for land and big, empire-ending clashes and stopping the former from always turning into the later.
It certainly doesn't do it any worse then the current system. Your solution looks... Well, pretty complicated. Which a complicated solution very likely is the best one, but it's at least understandable why it's not done. I just don't understand why they not only want to go with simple solutions, but simple bad solutions when there are other solutions that seem obviously better and are similarly complex that they aren't even trying.
Post by: LoSboccacc on March 15, 2018, 04:46:38 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 15, 2018, 05:06:00 pm
It certainly doesn't do it any worse then the current system. Your solution looks... Well, pretty complicated. Which a complicated solution very likely is the best one, but it's at least understandable why it's not done. I just don't understand why they not only want to go with simple solutions, but simple bad solutions when there are other solutions that seem obviously better and are similarly complex that they aren't even trying.
To be fair, I'm probably massively over-complicating my explanation. Handling a bunch of edge-cases at the same time doesn't help make it clear either. You could easily summarize it as 'Global WE that scales with how fucked you are if you lose'. But if I did then it wouldn't be pointless rambling, would it?
For what the Stellaris team is trying to achieve, I think there's no simple solution to it. Players usually want to fight every war to the utmost, so they rarely end wars without being obviously outclassed or enforcing their demands. So having a war end without being a war to the death is hard to happen naturally or in an enjoyable way. So Wiz et all are going to have to complicate their solution. The question is mostly how and how much. Hopefully they eventually stumble upon one that everyone can enjoy.
to what end tho? it prevents many classical sci-fi situations (like bug crusade after buenosaires was hit with a meteor etc)
To allow more limited conflicts. Slow down blobbing until better wargoals are acquired. Allowing smaller empires to better resist a larger one from annexing them. And a few others I'm probably missing.
Post by: Mephansteras on March 16, 2018, 10:33:45 am
Spoiler: The Great Hall (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: The Galaxy (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: The Factions (click to show/hide)
There is also that green bit to the north of me, a Hivemind. I was at peace with them for a very long time, until my SE neighbors finally joined the Alliance. They had been warring off and on with the Hivemind most of the game and getting the worst of it every time. Once they had a very powerful set of friends, we quickly waged several wars to not only gain back all of their lost territory but took a large chunk of hivemind territory in the last war. The arrival of the Scourge ended all that before another war broke out.
Far to the West is an isolationist empire (the brown one) that has held out alone for quite some time. The Scourge has only recently started doing any actual damage to their empire. We can only hope that they can hold out a bit longer, as we have no real way of getting ships that far over to help.
I expect, should we defeat the Scourge, that we'll win the game shortly after the crisis ends.
Spoiler: The Northern Holdings (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: The Bastion against the Scourge (click to show/hide)
It is the jump off point for our Western Fleets, and should the Scourge get down this far should be a fairly defensible point as I can pump reinforcements in quickly using the Gateway. It's defensive systems are also all specifically tailored to be strong against the Scourge ships.
Spoiler: The Front (click to show/hide)
We have Cleansed many worlds with our Neutron Sweeper Colossus. We expect to cleanse many more.
For now, we are holding. As our technology and those of our allies continues to improve we fare better and better against the invaders. I hope that someday this threat will be destroyed.
But for now, we are the Dwarves. We come from the Mountainhome, and we will not stand idly by while this threat consumes our Galaxy!
Post by: Eric Blank on March 18, 2018, 12:14:57 am
Post by: Sirus on March 18, 2018, 12:19:05 am
Post by: Eric Blank on March 18, 2018, 01:38:04 am
I was terrified for a minute because it said it was pathing to a system for which the shortest route would be through one of my most inhabited planets and my homeworld, luckily it seems to have chosen a longer route, though i cant see it now. Do those things go after planets and pop?
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 18, 2018, 08:09:05 am
Alright then, thanks.No they mostly just hang out at a star for a while then move on, attacking any ships along the way
I was terrified for a minute because it said it was pathing to a system for which the shortest route would be through one of my most inhabited planets and my homeworld, luckily it seems to have chosen a longer route, though i cant see it now. Do those things go after planets and pop?
Post by: Criptfeind on March 18, 2018, 08:33:06 am
Yeah that won't remotely be enough. You'll want to be somewhere in the realm of 50-100k for anything with a skull icon.
You don't need nearly that many for the wraith. "Skull" can range from around 10k to 60-70k in my experience, and the wraith is on the weaker side of skull marked enemies. I think probably around 20-30k should do it.
Although talk to the curator enclave, I can't recall if the wraith is one of the things they know about, but I think it might be. If it is you can ask them if your fleet is strong enough to take it, and you can buy a massive damage boost against it. Also wraiths are weakened by certain color of star, depending on the color of the wraith. So fighting one in that type of star is the best idea.
Post by: Paul on March 18, 2018, 12:48:40 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Man, the RNG can be HARSH in this game. I just started a new game and got to exploring. There are four exits from the little bitty cluster of 5 stars I have spawned in. On the exit to the north, there is a xenophobic fallen empire. On the exit to the south, there is a marauder empire. On the exit to the east, there is the second marauder empire. And on the exit to the west, there is a 1 system choke point with what I think is the dimensional horror (it killed my science ship without even triggering an alert). All I have in this little blotch of space is the 2 auto generated planets, one of which is too close to the fallen empire to actually make use of. I normally don't restart due to bad starting conditions, but this one takes the cake - I would be getting hit constantly by the marauders and not be able to expand at all.
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 18, 2018, 08:19:32 pm
Post by: umiman on March 18, 2018, 08:29:44 pm
I turned the difficulty to maximum for a new game and had two other AI empires alongside 4 Fallen Empires in a large map. Also to make it harder for myself, I decided to only have one single planet and just chill and take my time.
Well...
It's the year 2474.
This is the map:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'm the little pink guy on the top and kinda the bottom. I'm currently the weakest of the starting empires. The only things weaker than me are the single planet protectorates I've raised here and there.
I had to actually colonize planets after I noticed how dramatically far ahead the AI empires were. I still haven't caught up and I've researched the entire tech tree alongside every single tradition.
I'm currently fighting both awakened FEs as well as the Contingency. None of my fleets even remotely stand a chance against any of them, as you can see in my fleet power. The contingency is spamming the map with 170k fleet power fleets and their homeworlds are protected by 500k fleets. I cannot for the life of me figure out how to deal with those.
Also the purple FE is going around putting every single planet it finds under a force field. It's pretty funny.
At this point my plan is to hide in a corner and cry. I'm hoping to turtle until my Dyson Sphere finishes, then spam as many fabricators as I can and suicide fleets at the enemy.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 18, 2018, 08:36:02 pm
It's also a Betharian-rich sector I've handcrafted for amazing energy production, so I've turned off redevelopment. The 75% income I'll get is fine.
I guess I'm just worried that the sector AI does something especially stupid if it gets too large, since people complain about it so much. If it just builds tile-appropriate buildings (which is checked), and upgrades, that's great. It'll be massively food heavy (I've paved over so many food tiles in this Egalitarian-xenophile Human, Star Trek Federation run), but whatever.
Post by: Criptfeind on March 19, 2018, 03:30:21 am
They still manage to fuck up the only thing they can do, controlling where population is, they'll gladly put mining focused pops on research as they throw research focused pops in the mine.
But it seems like the best way to handle sectors, if you do that they can't fuck it up too badly, so they'll be at least able to run that planet with 75% of the efficiency you yourself would, no matter how many planets are otherwise in the sector.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 19, 2018, 09:36:26 am
What's a good size for sectors, AI-wise? I have a planet I'd love to add to a sector, but it would be planet 6. An old thread said the sector AI gets particularly dumb after 5.
It's also a Betharian-rich sector I've handcrafted for amazing energy production, so I've turned off redevelopment. The 75% income I'll get is fine.
I guess I'm just worried that the sector AI does something especially stupid if it gets too large, since people complain about it so much. If it just builds tile-appropriate buildings (which is checked), and upgrades, that's great. It'll be massively food heavy (I've paved over so many food tiles in this Egalitarian-xenophile Human, Star Trek Federation run), but whatever.
the 5 planet limit doesn't exist anymore, i think - as i recall there was a bug that applied the core planet limit to sectors, so going over 5 (the base Core Planet limit) meant that sectors took penalties for "going over" just like your empire would if it went over. but that's gone now.
so if you've turned off redevelopment and hand-crafted all the buildings, there's really no problem and you can dump them all in. afaik.
although i have to say... why would you put your best energy planets in a sector? you should always keep your best planets/systems out of the sectors, and only put the worst planets in, because you want to take the 25% penalty on the smallest base possible.
Post by: Hanzoku on March 19, 2018, 09:48:58 am
Post by: Rolan7 on March 19, 2018, 10:03:45 am
the 5 planet limit doesn't exist anymore, i think - as i recall there was a bug that applied the core planet limit to sectors, so going over 5 (the base Core Planet limit) meant that sectors took penalties for "going over" just like your empire would if it went over. but that's gone now.Ah, cool! I guess it makes sense, but hopefully it's gone. It's not the end of the world if it does have that limit, since I'll increase my planet capacity eventually.
so if you've turned off redevelopment and hand-crafted all the buildings, there's really no problem and you can dump them all in. afaik.
I'll try it and see. If the limit doesn't exist, it'll be tempting to combine my four sectors into one. I've only got two governors, since I'm using scientists to assist research (unity boost from Discovery tradition).
although i have to say... why would you put your best energy planets in a sector? you should always keep your best planets/systems out of the sectors, and only put the worst planets in, because you want to take the 25% penalty on the smallest base possible.Due to geography, mainly. I have 5/5 planets in my starting area now, and the energy-rich planet is pretty far away and close to the big sector.
Also I'm getting close to my energy capacity a lot, even with silos, so letting a sector store some of those energy credits isn't a problem for me.
Post by: Damiac on March 19, 2018, 11:59:24 am
However, I tend to only ever have 1 sector, and I jam all the planets in it that don't fit in my core. I try to keep the best worlds my core worlds, but sometimes the general layout doesn't permit that exactly.
I tend to ignore the sectors for the most part, unless I find myself with excess materials. Then I may spend some improving sector planets. I find giving the materials directly to be inefficient, as the sectors spread it around all the projects they have planned, so you give 200 minerals and get 66/100 for one thing, 66/100 for another, and 67/100 of a third. Instead I just build the thing directly.
I find when the sectors start actually stockpiling materials, I usually tend to have a ton of materials as well, and I usually have plenty of influence to spare. So then I'll occasionally pay the influence for a big chunk of resources.
What sectors are bad at is prioritizing. They'll develop a 1 mineral tile before a 4 mineral tile because the 1 mineral tile is closer to the top-left (or whatever they start from). The AI seems to just look for the first spot for the resource they want, rather than the best. So manually building for them can help overcome this. They are also bad at pop assignment, seemingly, but I don't know what to do about that. I tend to just have 1 or 2 pops, but I assume this is a bigger deal for some people.
So I can say for sure there's no planet limit for sectors, at least not one you could reasonably reach. And the sector AI seems to do better with more. Also, having just 1 sector means you only need 2 governors, one for core and one for the sector. Not sure what benefits could exist for multiple sectors, aside from not having to be connected.
Post by: Cruxador on March 19, 2018, 12:55:18 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 19, 2018, 01:04:46 pm
To be honest, I haven't used sectors at all since the very beginning. Now that it's core systems instead of core planets, and you can increase the amount more easily, I rarely find it worthwhile to exceed the cap.I don't know how you do that. I end up with hundreds of planets in most playthroughs, across dozens of systems.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 19, 2018, 01:06:56 pm
To be honest, I haven't used sectors at all since the very beginning. Now that it's core systems instead of core planets, and you can increase the amount more easily, I rarely find it worthwhile to exceed the cap.I don't know how you do that. I end up with hundreds of planets in most playthroughs, across dozens of systems.
hundreds of planets?? lol but why
i mean i guess if that's your actual goal, fine. but there's no reason to do that within the scope of the any challenge the game presents.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 19, 2018, 01:09:49 pm
well my last game was max difficulty and 5x crisis strength on a 2500 star map, I was crushed by waves of 1 million strength swarm fleets at the end and I was over 200 planets strong. It was a challenge run just to see if I could.To be honest, I haven't used sectors at all since the very beginning. Now that it's core systems instead of core planets, and you can increase the amount more easily, I rarely find it worthwhile to exceed the cap.I don't know how you do that. I end up with hundreds of planets in most playthroughs, across dozens of systems.
hundreds of planets?? lol but why
i mean i guess if that's your actual goal, fine. but there's no reason to do that within the scope of the any challenge the game presents.
That said I do end up with well over 100 planets in most late game runs, if I survive that long.
Post by: umiman on March 19, 2018, 01:30:12 pm
You don't even remotely stand a chance against larger crisis events unless you go massive and max out stations.To be honest, I haven't used sectors at all since the very beginning. Now that it's core systems instead of core planets, and you can increase the amount more easily, I rarely find it worthwhile to exceed the cap.I don't know how you do that. I end up with hundreds of planets in most playthroughs, across dozens of systems.
hundreds of planets?? lol but why
i mean i guess if that's your actual goal, fine. but there's no reason to do that within the scope of the any challenge the game presents.
In getting rid of doomstacks, the Stellaris devs forgot to remove the AI's ability to make doomstacks (lololol 500k fleet strength fleet). So the only way to fight their doomstacks is to expand so massively that you can afford your own doomstack. Or play MP. Cause MP balancing boys~
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on March 19, 2018, 02:13:51 pm
You don't even remotely stand a chance against larger crisis events unless you go massive and max out stations.
In getting rid of doomstacks, the Stellaris devs forgot to remove the AI's ability to make doomstacks (lololol 500k fleet strength fleet). So the only way to fight their doomstacks is to expand so massively that you can afford your own doomstack. Or play MP. Cause MP balancing boys~
Excuse me if I take that with less than a grain of salt. I know they can go over fleet cap, but I've never seen going over command limit.
Post by: umiman on March 19, 2018, 02:21:18 pm
From my current game, which is making me shit my pants:You don't even remotely stand a chance against larger crisis events unless you go massive and max out stations.
In getting rid of doomstacks, the Stellaris devs forgot to remove the AI's ability to make doomstacks (lololol 500k fleet strength fleet). So the only way to fight their doomstacks is to expand so massively that you can afford your own doomstack. Or play MP. Cause MP balancing boys~
Excuse me if I take that with less than a grain of salt. I know they can go over fleet cap, but I've never seen going over command limit.
(https://i.imgur.com/jXmYJvL.png)
That's AFTER I tried to suicide run that world without realizing each planet comes with a giant-ass fortress defending it too. Hence the slightly reduced fleet size.
Reddit post at 5x crisis strength:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
1.4 million fleet strength. You don't get a boost by the way so you're stuck at fleet cap.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 19, 2018, 02:24:16 pm
Post by: umiman on March 19, 2018, 02:29:33 pm
Yeah, I wasn't kidding about the 1 million strong swarm fleets guys. It's scary. I don't think you're intended to win against 5x crisis strengthIt actually reminds me of AI war actually. Like, the whole gameplay at this point is about not pissing off the contingency and turtling and praying for help.
I posted about it earlier but I managed to finish my Dyson Sphere and I started spamming fabricators everywhere SupCom-style. Now I can actually afford to spam suicide stacks of 2x100k fleet strength torpedo corvettes and handle the 170k regular fleets roaming around. But I still have no clue how to punch through the Contingency homeworlds with the above defending garrisons. I tried to suicide it like I said, but each homeworld not only has a spaceport but one of those AI cores that is super tanky. So my suicide fleet gets wiped out by the 500k defense garrison before my second strike team can even kill the core. And even if I kill the core, I have to bomb the planet.
So I need to turtle EVEN LONGER and slowly jack up those repeating techs until I breach 200k fleet strength per corvette fleet or something.
Also the wiki is outdated on the Contingency.
Quote
Defensively the fleets don't use armor but will regenerate, and they focus entirely on shields
This is not true any more. They have 50/50 shields and armour.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 19, 2018, 02:31:32 pm
if paradox ups the slider to 10x, will you try to beat that, too?
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 19, 2018, 02:37:52 pm
so heres a questionI mean... I would TRY. I always try things. There's no reason not to try. Failing is how you learn. At this point I can reliably beat the AI on hard difficulty most of the time, so the endgame crisis is the biggest challenge left to work out.
if paradox ups the slider to 10x, will you try to beat that, too?
Although the new midgame khanate crisis caught me unawares a few times and nearly took me out.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on March 19, 2018, 03:33:31 pm
Excuse me if I take that with less than a grain of salt. I know they can go over fleet cap, but I've never seen going over command limit.From my current game, which is making me shit my pants:
(https://i.imgur.com/jXmYJvL.png)
That's AFTER I tried to suicide run that world without realizing each planet comes with a giant-ass fortress defending it too. Hence the slightly reduced fleet size.
Reddit post at 5x crisis strength:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
1.4 million fleet strength. You don't get a boost by the way so you're stuck at fleet cap.
[/quote]
Given that's a Crisis fleet and the presence of the number 007, I'm pretty sure that isn't breaking command limit. The Crisis level you've set things to is just that powerful with a single fleet.
Hell, looking at the command limit of the second image, it is actually perfectly at the maximum of 200. Each battleship provides 16, and with 10 that's 160, while the Destroyers provide 2 apiece, which totals up to 40. Combined with the last, 200. AI's not cheating with that fleet power, and you can likely reach it yourself with the same template and enough of the repeatable techs.
Post by: Criptfeind on March 19, 2018, 04:07:03 pm
Hell, looking at the command limit of the second image, it is actually perfectly at the maximum of 200. Each battleship provides 16, and with 10 that's 160, while the Destroyers provide 2 apiece, which totals up to 40. Combined with the last, 200. AI's not cheating with that fleet power, and you can likely reach it yourself with the same template and enough of the repeatable techs.
How about that fleet behind it with 25 battleships and 50 destroyers?
Also battleships are 8 and destroyers are 2. Not 16 (titans.) and 8.
25x8=200 50x2=100= They have a command limit on that fleet of 300, over the command limit by 100.
x5 crisis strength looks like it'd be beatable in a multiplayer game. 5-6 players, especially if they were in a number of federations,could probably beat that without going over 1000 command point limit. Once the 1000 command point limit is removed it seems like it'd be a lot more possible for a single player to take it out, if they were willing to micro that many planets. My personal limit is about 30 planets per game, after which the micro of moving pops around crushes my tiny soul so much that I can't keep it up. So I won't be attempting to beat it on my own anytime soon.
Post by: Cruxador on March 19, 2018, 04:58:03 pm
Plenty of purging. And I use habitats.To be honest, I haven't used sectors at all since the very beginning. Now that it's core systems instead of core planets, and you can increase the amount more easily, I rarely find it worthwhile to exceed the cap.I don't know how you do that. I end up with hundreds of planets in most playthroughs, across dozens of systems.
Post by: umiman on March 19, 2018, 07:11:13 pm
Given that's a Crisis fleet and the presence of the number 007, I'm pretty sure that isn't breaking command limit. The Crisis level you've set things to is just that powerful with a single fleet.Not only are you looking at the wrong thing, have the wrong numbers, screwed up the quote function, and misunderstood the point of the post, my crisis level is 1. I didn't mess with it. I only changed difficulty to max.
Hell, looking at the command limit of the second image, it is actually perfectly at the maximum of 200. Each battleship provides 16, and with 10 that's 160, while the Destroyers provide 2 apiece, which totals up to 40. Combined with the last, 200. AI's not cheating with that fleet power, and you can likely reach it yourself with the same template and enough of the repeatable techs.
So that's the number most everyone fights.
(https://i.gyazo.com/338b3b5408cdc7c9c8d719fca15e8c3f.png)
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 19, 2018, 07:26:51 pm
I've been on a soap box before raving that the AI outright cheats and that crisis strength is broken. They are often insurmountable. It's fine if they are difficult, but it should not be actually impossible to achieve a victory condition.
I've had superior land area, navel capacity, and tech to a awakened empire (in pre-2.0) and had them suddenly whip out a fleet 3x the power of mine and have no problems maintaining it. This sort of thing has been a problem for a long time.
Post by: Baffler on March 19, 2018, 07:49:49 pm
My personal limit is about 30 planets per game, after which the micro of moving pops around crushes my tiny soul so much that I can't keep it up. So I won't be attempting to beat it on my own anytime soon.
I know your pain. My current playthough is with a hivemind, and if I let the sector AI to its own devices it'll move the very strong, nervestapled, industrious, agrarian worker caste onto laboratories and the like when it really should know better. Outside of that though I'm fairly happy with the job it does. If I only have one kind of pop it tends to do a fairly good job of managing the whole thing.
Post by: umiman on March 20, 2018, 12:13:58 am
Has it? I've only ever fought the extradimensional guys and they weren't this bad.Well you used poor sentence structure, so obviously
I've been on a soap box before raving that the AI outright cheats and that crisis strength is broken. They are often insurmountable. It's fine if they are difficult, but it should not be actually impossible to achieve a victory condition.
I've had superior land area, navel capacity, and tech to a awakened empire (in pre-2.0) and had them suddenly whip out a fleet 3x the power of mine and have no problems maintaining it. This sort of thing has been a problem for a long time.
Post by: QuakeIV on March 20, 2018, 04:37:59 am
Post by: Wysthric on March 20, 2018, 06:07:47 am
Post by: Criptfeind on March 20, 2018, 08:21:48 am
What was your galaxy size? Crises scale to be able to take on the whole galaxy.
I think this is a big issue and a bad idea with how they've made it. The AI doesn't fight together effectively. MORE AI nations does not help against the end game crisis, even if they are in a big mega federation they'll rarely help each other. It just means more room for the crisis to spread itself and grow further without having to face actual opposition like a player or an awakened empire (which can sometimes sorta help.) Unless the player goes all out and conquers the whole galaxy before the crisis triggers, I'd go so far as to say that the Crisis is naturally stronger, not weaker, in a larger galaxy. But it scales as if the larger galaxy would mean it's proportionately weaker somehow.
Post by: Damiac on March 20, 2018, 08:38:12 am
The fact that they're apparently doubling down on that by letting the AI cheat to surpass the fleet limit is disappointing, but not surprising. Wiz is a big ol' liar, apparently, and that's that. He told players for a long time the AI did not cheat at all, and here we see he programmed it to actually cheat even more now. That's.... weird. People assume 4X AIs cheat, they kind of need to generally to compete with humans, so why lie about it?
So I'm playing the 2.02 beta, and in some ways I kind of like the direction they've taken war exhaustion, separating out occupation completely, so war exhaustion is just something that goes up, never down with territory changing hands. However, the point system still doesn't really work.
For example, in a recent game, I decided to vassalize a neighbor. Naturally, they said no, so naturally we went to war. After invading and taking over every single system and planet and blowing up every single ship they didn't have enough exhaustion to surrender. Like... surrender? It's already over, and the game used to realize this and allow you to force a surrender in that situation.
So I had to just wait a while, until their exhaustion ticked up enough on its own to push them over the magic number and allow surrender.
That's absurd. I wasn't trying to wipe them out, I was trying to make them my vassals. Just showing up with my navy should have scared them into surrender, I had like 10x the strength of them. Certainly blowing up every last one of their warships, science vessels, and construction ships should have made their decision easy. Certainly the fact that I occupied their capital was something they should have been worried about... They should have been thrilled I was offering both my protection and access to my fantastic tech... Instead the AI insisted on being completely stomped, which obviously puts them further from victory.
Needing to go so far above and beyond just winning the war is kind of silly. I understand territory wars are much more straightforward, basically if you claim it and you occupy it, it's yours, which makes sense.
Post by: umiman on March 20, 2018, 09:57:51 am
I sent in 600 torpedo Corvettes twice. The Reapers don't replenish those defensive fleets so you can wear them down in wars of attrition.
Incidentally torpedo Corvettes are the only thing that seems to work against them. That and disruptor Corvettes. They have too many shields and armor and anything larger than a Corvette is vaporized by their big guns due to lack of evasion.
I'm not sure if this pissed then off but I have noticed they are attacking me a lot more now.
Post by: askovdk on March 20, 2018, 10:50:53 am
That's absurd. I wasn't trying to wipe them out, I was trying to make them my vassals. Just showing up with my navy should have scared them into surrender, I had like 10x the strength of them. Certainly blowing up every last one of their warships, science vessels, and construction ships should have made their decision easy. Certainly the fact that I occupied their capital was something they should have been worried about... They should have been thrilled I was offering both my protection and access to my fantastic tech... Instead the AI insisted on being completely stomped, which obviously puts them further from victory.
Hmm, somethow this get me thinking of Afganistan. 2 superpowers have in turn wiped out all visible opposition, but neither been able to claim it as 'vassal'.
It can always be discussed how to model it in games, but I find it fair, that winning 'Hearts and Mind' / having a true Vassal takes a lot longer than just wiping out the opposing assets. :-\
Post by: Damiac on March 20, 2018, 12:41:16 pm
That's absurd. I wasn't trying to wipe them out, I was trying to make them my vassals. Just showing up with my navy should have scared them into surrender, I had like 10x the strength of them. Certainly blowing up every last one of their warships, science vessels, and construction ships should have made their decision easy. Certainly the fact that I occupied their capital was something they should have been worried about... They should have been thrilled I was offering both my protection and access to my fantastic tech... Instead the AI insisted on being completely stomped, which obviously puts them further from victory.
Hmm, somethow this get me thinking of Afganistan. 2 superpowers have in turn wiped out all visible opposition, but neither been able to claim it as 'vassal'.
It can always be discussed how to model it in games, but I find it fair, that winning 'Hearts and Mind' / having a true Vassal takes a lot longer than just wiping out the opposing assets. :-\
There are some important differences here. I think Iraq is the better metaphor, but both probably work.
Superpower(s) show up and dismantle the existing problematic state. The problematic state pretty much instantly surrenders, because people don't want to be dead. How long exactly was iraq's military a problem during the invasion? It wasn't at all.
The next step is what you're talking about. OK, now I'm nominally in charge of iraq. The state I fought is gone. But, the pops are unhappy! They don't like my ethics! Oh no! Unrest!
This is already modeled in game with fully conquered planets, but not with vassals. You take over a bunch of planets, but the pops won't do any work or produce anything until you make them happy, "Winning hearts and minds".
Having the pops of an empire that agrees to be a vassal start revolting would make some sense, or even having parts of that empire splinter off into separate new empires. What doesn't make sense is the state whose ass I just kicked being the one who won't surrender. Like... I'm here with a gun to your head, no isn't an option dummy. You think Saddam wouldn't have agreed to pretty much anything to stay in charge of Iraq?
Basically, you storm the capital of a state, you have the leader of the state at your mercy, they surrender, because why the hell wouldn't they? Don't they want to keep living, and potentially keep whatever power they have and maybe use that to defeat me someday?
Since we're talking about aliens, it'd be ok if the some of the super fierce militant aliens really were willing to fight to the last soldier, but that should be the exception.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on March 20, 2018, 01:17:22 pm
Since we're talking about aliens, it'd be ok if the some of the super fierce militant aliens really were willing to fight to the last soldier, but that should be the exception.
On the other hand, this is galactic level civilizations we are talking about. Statistical anomalies would still comprise a massive number of the population, and when the central government collapses, these anomolies might take charge to continue the fight.
Post by: Damiac on March 20, 2018, 03:09:25 pm
But that is clearly not what is happening, because the same leader and government stays in charge. That would be interesting if it happened occasionally, the head of state tries to surrender, a militant xenophobic leader stages a coup, and part of the empire fractures off. It'd be annoying if that was the result of every war, but as something that happens every few games it'd be cool.Since we're talking about aliens, it'd be ok if the some of the super fierce militant aliens really were willing to fight to the last soldier, but that should be the exception.
On the other hand, this is galactic level civilizations we are talking about. Statistical anomalies would still comprise a massive number of the population, and when the central government collapses, these anomolies might take charge to continue the fight.
Also, from a gameplay standpoint, having to keep kicking the empire after I clearly already beat it isn't fun gameplay. We all know that empire is going to be my vassal, you're just making me sit around and look for extra stuff to blow up. That doesn't make for good emergent stories.
"And then after destroying the entire bug armada, every bug army on every planet, every bug shipyard, and occupying every bug planet, the bugs still refused to surrender, so the humans just kinda flew around for a while looking for other stuff to blow up. After a few years the bugs decided to surrender after all"
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 20, 2018, 03:14:39 pm
Post by: Damiac on March 20, 2018, 03:26:14 pm
Post by: LoSboccacc on March 20, 2018, 03:32:47 pm
Post by: Damiac on March 20, 2018, 03:34:59 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 20, 2018, 03:36:57 pm
Post by: Damiac on March 20, 2018, 03:48:06 pm
But yeah, I agree the threshold should certainly be based on ethics. Militant and xenophobe types would be harder to convince than pacifist and xenophile types, after all.
In this scenario, the obviously superior enemies have already crushed the small nation. The small nation then says "Ahh, but look, I believe I see a single structure that's only half destroyed in the rubble that used to be our civilization. So you have to blow that up before we'll surrender".
At some point, the people on the ground want to stop being killed.
What examples do you have of real life states continuing to exist after having their militaries destroyed? Usually occupying the capitol is enough to dismantle the state, whether they are willing to officially surrender or not. That's different than partisan forces in an occupied state, for example, militants in iraq, partisans in france after their surrender in WW2, etc. That's already modeled by the unrest system, to some degree.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 20, 2018, 04:05:07 pm
What examples do you have of real life states continuing to exist after having their militaries destroyed?
The various SSRs that the Soviets put up after WW2? For example, Hungary got occupied by the Soviets in 1945 and they didn't leave until 1989. The fact that the post WW2 Hungarian government turned communist is probably not a coincidence. Not to mention all of the colonial wars where the European powers disposed a ruler to set someone more receptive in their place.
Really, what should happen after a scenario like that is that the vassalized country should get a new ruler and maybe government. Maybe a minor ethics shift too, to be closer to their overlord. Something to represent the victors setting up a puppet government or someone more willing to collaborate.
Post by: Cruxador on March 20, 2018, 04:46:24 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 20, 2018, 04:53:51 pm
I would also like lots of flavour events as the subject government struggles with their new ethics and demands of their overlord but we both know that ain't going to happen in vanilla Stellaris. I can still dream though.
Post by: Damiac on March 20, 2018, 08:16:06 pm
I think you misunderstand me. In your example, Hungary surrendered, did they not?What examples do you have of real life states continuing to exist after having their militaries destroyed?
The various SSRs that the Soviets put up after WW2? For example, Hungary got occupied by the Soviets in 1945 and they didn't leave until 1989. The fact that the post WW2 Hungarian government turned communist is probably not a coincidence. Not to mention all of the colonial wars where the European powers disposed a ruler to set someone more receptive in their place.
Really, what should happen after a scenario like that is that the vassalized country should get a new ruler and maybe government. Maybe a minor ethics shift too, to be closer to their overlord. Something to represent the victors setting up a puppet government or someone more willing to collaborate.
Post by: PTTG?? on March 20, 2018, 08:48:04 pm
If the people have been happy and the factions satisfied for a long time, then even if things are bad now, they should probably be very resistant to giving up, even if they're pacifist xenophiles.
Post by: Damiac on March 21, 2018, 07:49:59 am
Some of the ideas proposed are cool, but I think maybe overly complex to expect to get into the game at this point in time. The idea of vassal's being slowly morphed into a copy of their overlord's civilization is cool, but I'd be happy just to have most aliens act with some measure of self preservation.
What I'm most concerned with is the transition to vassal. Here's how I see it:
Superior power demands inferior power submit to vassalization - This should work sometimes, even if they don't really like you. You're offering them protection, and in return they don't get to have agency in declaring wars and the like. Why would a pacifist mind this? But maybe they believe it would be too much hassle for me to invade them, so they refuse, and we come to:
Assuming inferior power refuses to submit, superior power declares war - This is another point where some empires should probably just immediately give up. Basically, they bluffed, and I called their bluff. They still know they can't win, so it makes sense for there to be a good chance of surrender here. But maybe they're deluded enough to think they can win, or they know their people wouldn't follow them if they surrendered without a fight, so next we get to:
Superior power demonstrates superiority - This would be where I blow up their entire navy. This would be a very, very logical place to surrender. OK, we tried to defend ourselves, that didn't work, maybe now we surrender to stop the killing? At this point, they can't stop me from bombing their worlds, I'm killing civilians at this point. Those civilians would be putting a ton of pressure on the government to do whatever it takes to stop the killing. But, maybe they are really stubborn and stupid, and think somehow their armies will stop my invasion:
Occupations start - Now I'm invading their planets, bombing their people, and killing their surface armies. Why would sensible aliens want this to continue? Only the most warlike and xenophobic empires should even consider not surrendering here, as it's basically surrender or die at this point. It's obviously just a matter of time here. We should almost never get to:
Inferior empire completely occupied - This just shouldn't happen. How do they even still have a state at this point? Super warlike or xenophobic species should probably just split off into individual planet-states or small fractured empires at this point, as they literally are willing to fight until they are all dead, but anyone else definitely should have surrendered by now.
Basically, I would think most intelligent aliens would have to have an innate sense of self preservation, otherwise they wouldn't have made it to space faring civilizations. So "not being killed" should really be valued much higher.
Post by: LoSboccacc on March 21, 2018, 07:58:19 am
What examples do you have of real life states continuing to exist after having their militaries destroyed?
pretty much all roman empire protectorates?
modern day? iraq, afghanistan, lybia.
then you have those that have had their military utterly destroyed but kept coming back, like poland and hungary.
japan seems to still be existing as well.
Post by: Damiac on March 21, 2018, 08:49:18 am
Sorry, I didn't really ask the question properly. What I meant was, states continuing to exist after their military is destroyed and they are occupied without surrendering. In other words, an occupied state either surrenders to the occupiers, or it ceases to exist. Like the roman protectorates surrendered, that's why they became protectorates. Japan's military was destroyed, and they surrendered (In ww2 at least). Iraq had the state dissolved (not that it worked out well) and a new state put in its place.What examples do you have of real life states continuing to exist after having their militaries destroyed?
pretty much all roman empire protectorates?
modern day? iraq, afghanistan, lybia.
then you have those that have had their military utterly destroyed but kept coming back, like poland and hungary.
japan seems to still be existing as well.
That's more analogous to the game situation I'm describing. In other words, I'm Russia, they're Hungary.
This all reminds me I should read more about early soviet expansion, there's a lot of interesting stuff there.
Post by: LoSboccacc on March 21, 2018, 11:56:27 am
Post by: Damiac on March 21, 2018, 12:34:59 pm
Poland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_government-in-exileThat's a cool example of the kind of stuff that should happen with conquered/vassalized empires, but you'll note that once the soviets occupied poland, the official state of poland was a russian satellite state. The government in exile no longer controlled poland, although they were able to effectively run a resistance campaign from outside the country. So in this instance, once the capital of Poland was occupied, they immediately surrendered. The idea of a government in exile is a really cool concept that I'd love to see in stellaris, but it's not an example of an occupied nation refusing to surrender and getting to stay a state.
This is a also great example of how in real wars militaries do not just let themselves be killed by superior forces. In this example, the military evacuated, and was able to make accomplishments that benefitted the original polish state. The idea of a surrendering nation's military partially or fully becoming a separate faction trying to 'liberate' their former home would be cool, and make sense.
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on March 21, 2018, 02:28:01 pm
I was super excited about 2.0, seeing the effort to fix the boring, horrible combat before as a desirable and good goal.
To celebrate two friends and I started a new game, played for a day or two, and got to midgame, so I got my first war.
Now, entering into the war, which was declared on me by an AI neighbor, I had two fleets and was at the recruitment limit.
My opponent had equivalent tech and power.
He is how the war went.
1. Enemy invades a border world soon after declaring war, I watch the attack on my station, observe the enemy fleet and upgrade my flee to counter-act it.
2. My fleet takes some time to upgrade, the enemy rapidly moves through systems attacking my stations, it is about at this point I notice that the stations aren't destroyed as in previous versions, but somehow magically convert to the enemy side, after being destroyed with weapon fire. I definitely didn't see that coming.
3. My fleets finally upgrade and I send them to the next system in line, they move incredibly slowly and the system falls before they reach it.
4. My fleets reach the system and engage the enemy fleet, we are of the same sizes, but I upgraded, so my ships easily win.
5. Then as the enemies flee, my own station, totally uninjured and seemingly specced with my own best weapons, opens fire and trashes my wounded fleet into also fleeing.
6. This repeats a second time, I figure OK, new plan, lets focus on winning back the systems.
7. I can't because the enemy is just fleeing engagements now, and I can't catch them because of how slow travel is. The worst part of combat before--endlessly chasing an enemy fleet around your map, remains strong.
8. I can't because the war ended without so much as a notification pop up, the alien enemy, who heroically lost two fleets in two battles has taken literally half of my empire.
9. the cause? War exhaustion: my sentient AI race got so tired of winning, and so scared of the stations they themselves built, they gave up half the empire.
10. I spend 10 (!) years rebuilding from this absurdity, launch an attack and lose in months, again due to exhaustion. In that time I win three space battles, lose one, and take numerous systems. War exhaustion victory for the AI, they even steal a few more worlds from me while I get nothing.
Fuck this game.
I honestly can't understand how it is possible to mess up combat more: their take away from previous combat problems is that people LOOOVE chasing enemies around the map fruitlessly and losing wars for no discernible reason.
I honestly can't play this game right now, which is embarrassing given that I experienced all this in the middle of friendly multiplayer.
Post by: Mephansteras on March 21, 2018, 02:46:00 pm
One thing I will give the devs, the changes have dramatically improved late-game lag for me. I've quit games in the past simply because the game slowed down so much it wasn't fun anymore. Now I'm probably about an hour away from winning, we've beaten the crisis, all that, and even in the middle of a war I can watch things zip along without any noticeable lag.
Post by: Chosrau on March 21, 2018, 02:51:21 pm
10. I spend 10 (!) years rebuilding from this absurdity, launch an attack and lose in months, again due to exhaustion. In that time I win three space battles, lose one, and take numerous systems. War exhaustion victory for the AI, they even steal a few more worlds from me while I get nothing.
How? A Status quo peace would have given you stuff you occupied and claimed and likewise the AI can't get your stuff unless they occupy it. Are you sure you're not missing something here?
Post by: Damiac on March 21, 2018, 03:18:19 pm
10. I spend 10 (!) years rebuilding from this absurdity, launch an attack and lose in months, again due to exhaustion. In that time I win three space battles, lose one, and take numerous systems. War exhaustion victory for the AI, they even steal a few more worlds from me while I get nothing.
How? A Status quo peace would have given you stuff you occupied and claimed and likewise the AI can't get your stuff unless they occupy it. Are you sure you're not missing something here?
No, the situation he's describing here is exactly the same as the situation I described when first playing 2.0. A weaker enemy declares war on him and attacks, manages to take a few systems, in the meantime he's equipping his fleet to take it back, and push into enemy territory. He's got war exhaustion from all the time this war went on, plus whatever losses he took. Then, when he went on the offensive, the enemy fleet just ran around capping his outputs. Eventually his war weariness ended up at 100% (Although the AIs weariness was probably above 100 for a long time, that doesn't matter). Once your weariness hits 100%, forced status quo. At that point, the AI keeps whatever systems it had flipped during the war.
It sounds like he spent the whole time chasing the AI fleet, who just ran away capping outposts all the way. Once he finally caught them, the battle probably took his weariness over 100.
I do think he's playing 2.0, not 2.02, because this seems a bit better in 2.02, in that weariness doesn't seem to go up quite as fast.
Post by: Mephansteras on March 21, 2018, 03:47:25 pm
The Claims screen will let you make claims, both before and during a war. It will also let you see what systems your enemies have claims on so you can prioritize your defense.
Not saying the system isn't a bit wonky, especially 2.0.0, but when you understand what it is doing things tend to be more manageable. My first game I had lots of issues with stuff. My second, which was entirely in 2.0.2 instead of switching partway through, went much much better.
Post by: Chosrau on March 21, 2018, 04:25:52 pm
10. I spend 10 (!) years rebuilding from this absurdity, launch an attack and lose in months, again due to exhaustion. In that time I win three space battles, lose one, and take numerous systems. War exhaustion victory for the AI, they even steal a few more worlds from me while I get nothing.
How? A Status quo peace would have given you stuff you occupied and claimed and likewise the AI can't get your stuff unless they occupy it. Are you sure you're not missing something here?
No, the situation he's describing here is exactly the same as the situation I described when first playing 2.0. A weaker enemy declares war on him and attacks, manages to take a few systems, in the meantime he's equipping his fleet to take it back, and push into enemy territory. He's got war exhaustion from all the time this war went on, plus whatever losses he took. Then, when he went on the offensive, the enemy fleet just ran around capping his outputs. Eventually his war weariness ended up at 100% (Although the AIs weariness was probably above 100 for a long time, that doesn't matter). Once your weariness hits 100%, forced status quo. At that point, the AI keeps whatever systems it had flipped during the war.
Sounds good to me. He sacrificed border systems to buy time and build up fleet up against an enemy who was stronger then him. Thats the kind of gameplay I want too see from a war weariness system.
Post by: Kanil on March 21, 2018, 04:46:00 pm
War one: Fight their fleet, win. Fight their fleet a second time, win. 100% WE, forced peace out taking 3 border systems.
*10 years pass*
War two: Jump into their home system, fight their defensive station and what's left of their fleet. 80% WE, ticks up to 100% and forced to peace out before I could capture both their planets. Forced peace taking... er... absolutely nothing.
*10 more years pass*
War three: Well they don't really have anything left at this point, so my people don't have anything to be exhausted over, and I can finally take one of their inhabited systems... (or really, all of them.)
20 years and 3 wars to fight three battles. I don't think anyone who thinks 2.0 WE is problematic (or outright absurd) is making an incorrect statement.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on March 22, 2018, 05:37:09 am
I've only played one 2.0 game, and no beta games. But in that game, I did kill a fallen empire. It went like this:
War one: Fight their fleet, win. Fight their fleet a second time, win. 100% WE, forced peace out taking 3 border systems.
*10 years pass*
War two: Jump into their home system, fight their defensive station and what's left of their fleet. 80% WE, ticks up to 100% and forced to peace out before I could capture both their planets. Forced peace taking... er... absolutely nothing.
*10 more years pass*
War three: Well they don't really have anything left at this point, so my people don't have anything to be exhausted over, and I can finally take one of their inhabited systems... (or really, all of them.)
20 years and 3 wars to fight three battles. I don't think anyone who thinks 2.0 WE is problematic (or outright absurd) is making an incorrect statement.
Ive never had problems like this... I much more often get wars dragging out literally forever because neither I nor the AI invader has enough fleetpower to overcome the others border fortifications. And I've certainly never has forced peace taking nothing if I was competent enough to actually remember to claim said systems.
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 22, 2018, 07:14:21 am
I've only played one 2.0 game, and no beta games. But in that game, I did kill a fallen empire. It went like this:I don't mind it too much, I just think it gets funny when as a hive, exterminator or purifier, for 10 years you have to have open borders with the foe, your open borders do not automatically reset to closed, and the very fact that you respect truces is hilarious
War one: Fight their fleet, win. Fight their fleet a second time, win. 100% WE, forced peace out taking 3 border systems.
*10 years pass*
War two: Jump into their home system, fight their defensive station and what's left of their fleet. 80% WE, ticks up to 100% and forced to peace out before I could capture both their planets. Forced peace taking... er... absolutely nothing.
*10 more years pass*
War three: Well they don't really have anything left at this point, so my people don't have anything to be exhausted over, and I can finally take one of their inhabited systems... (or really, all of them.)
20 years and 3 wars to fight three battles. I don't think anyone who thinks 2.0 WE is problematic (or outright absurd) is making an incorrect statement.
Post by: Damiac on March 22, 2018, 09:22:40 am
10. I spend 10 (!) years rebuilding from this absurdity, launch an attack and lose in months, again due to exhaustion. In that time I win three space battles, lose one, and take numerous systems. War exhaustion victory for the AI, they even steal a few more worlds from me while I get nothing.
How? A Status quo peace would have given you stuff you occupied and claimed and likewise the AI can't get your stuff unless they occupy it. Are you sure you're not missing something here?
No, the situation he's describing here is exactly the same as the situation I described when first playing 2.0. A weaker enemy declares war on him and attacks, manages to take a few systems, in the meantime he's equipping his fleet to take it back, and push into enemy territory. He's got war exhaustion from all the time this war went on, plus whatever losses he took. Then, when he went on the offensive, the enemy fleet just ran around capping his outputs. Eventually his war weariness ended up at 100% (Although the AIs weariness was probably above 100 for a long time, that doesn't matter). Once your weariness hits 100%, forced status quo. At that point, the AI keeps whatever systems it had flipped during the war.
Sounds good to me. He sacrificed border systems to buy time and build up fleet up against an enemy who was stronger then him. Thats the kind of gameplay I want too see from a war weariness system.
The situation you're describing has always been possible in the game (although the insta-flip during war is new). That is interesting gameplay. However, the part that's silly is after allowing some border systems to be taken to buy time, he started destroying the AI, although he took some losses along the way. The bend, but don't break defense followed by a counter-attack is a very interesting strategy, and something that has happened in real wars.
What doesn't happen, what would never happen, is during the middle of the successful counter-attack a mysterious all powerful entity says "Wars over, you guys are friends for 10 years now, all systems go to whoever currently owns them and has a claim on them. (I love that too. Who exactly are we registering these claims with?)
I mean... I don't remember that part of WW2 where after stopping hitler's forces at stalingrad, and pushing them back, Russia just decided it was tired of war and let germany keep whatever they were currently occupying, and then agreed to a truce for 10 years.
Post by: LoSboccacc on March 22, 2018, 11:09:25 am
losses and gains alone shouldn't really pump up weariness. the civilian get weary of what? (beside we had states that have been in war state for a century and nobody even noticed https://www.upi.com/Archives/1981/11/11/Extra-Extra-Huescar-makes-peace-with-Denmark/8195374302800/ )
conquests should instead reduce weariness unless you have certain empire traits. losses as well should reduce weariness unless you have some specific traits.
random actions that go against your empire traits should as well have an impact on weariness - extremely xenophobic? bombing aliens should reduce the weariness, etc.
this would of course make certain traits overpowered in combat and since the game doesn't have enough non combat options for conquest to balance them out it might be not possible to do until another expansion for diplomatic/subterfuge conquest
Post by: Mephansteras on March 22, 2018, 11:13:08 am
But there must be a better way of handling it than a weird Galactic Consensus about wars that everyone follows no matter what.
Post by: Draignean on March 22, 2018, 11:23:55 am
Each faction could contribute to the war exhaustion based on their goal in the war. You're capturing lots of nice systems with plenty of resources? Materialists aren't going to complain, hell, throw in a strategic resource and they may even roll it back a bit. However, the pacifists are going to be upset as all hell that you're embarking on a war seemingly with the intention of just raiding resources from your neighbors, and the authoritarians aren't going to be impressed unless there was an actual world conquered in those resource rich systems.
Scale these effects by how many pops you have of any particular ethos, and bam, it's almost an organic system. If you're in a war and you just need a little bit longer, you can use faction suppression to cut down the influence of the peaceniks, or to encourage the militarists who approve of you trucking across the system and showing the enemy fleets whose boss even if you don't actually conquer ground.
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 22, 2018, 11:54:19 am
You know, Paradox could always try something radical, like integrating War Exhaustion into their existing system of citizen factions. Each faction type as different goals in war; the materialists want more shit, the authoritarians want more worlds, the militarists want to win, the xenophiles want their border to be left the fuck alone, egalitarians want to end oppression, pacifists want he war to be over, and spiritualists want whatever the great space god tells them to want.I suppose there is something hilarious about supremacist and militiarist factions pushing for war and then pushing for peace, then getting angry that their government isn't at war. This should go to some lengths towards fixing that. To develop your idea further, would the xenophile faction have war specific objectives? I'd say they'd increase war exhaustion for all the collateral damage planetary bombardment or invasions cause (so unleashing xenomorphs onto an enemy planet would be political suicide with a dominant xenophile faction), but leaving the borders alone seems like something the isolationist faction would want, while the isolationists and prosperity factions would both just increase war exhaustion for fighting in a war at all. You could also tie it into wargoals, so imperialist factions decrease war exhaustion for a subjugation CB to turn another state into a vassal, or the exterminator factions decrease war exhaustion for every captured world
Each faction could contribute to the war exhaustion based on their goal in the war. You're capturing lots of nice systems with plenty of resources? Materialists aren't going to complain, hell, throw in a strategic resource and they may even roll it back a bit. However, the pacifists are going to be upset as all hell that you're embarking on a war seemingly with the intention of just raiding resources from your neighbors, and the authoritarians aren't going to be impressed unless there was an actual world conquered in those resource rich systems.
Scale these effects by how many pops you have of any particular ethos, and bam, it's almost an organic system. If you're in a war and you just need a little bit longer, you can use faction suppression to cut down the influence of the peaceniks, or to encourage the militarists who approve of you trucking across the system and showing the enemy fleets whose boss even if you don't actually conquer ground.
Post by: Cruxador on March 22, 2018, 11:57:12 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 22, 2018, 12:02:47 pm
War Exhaustion based on faction goals/happiness/whatever would be a great idea and make factions feel a lot more relevant than they actually are.
Post by: Draignean on March 22, 2018, 12:07:48 pm
I suppose there is something hilarious about supremacist and militiarist factions pushing for war and then pushing for peace, then getting angry that their government isn't at war. This should go to some lengths towards fixing that. To develop your idea further, would the xenophile faction have war specific objectives? I'd say they'd increase war exhaustion for all the collateral damage planetary bombardment or invasions cause (so unleashing xenomorphs onto an enemy planet would be political suicide with a dominant xenophile faction), but leaving the borders alone seems like something the isolationist faction would want, while the isolationists and prosperity factions would both just increase war exhaustion for fighting in a war at all. You could also tie it into wargoals, so imperialist factions decrease war exhaustion for a subjugation CB to turn another state into a vassal, or the exterminator factions decrease war exhaustion for every captured world
IMHO, xenophiles should be proponents of war against determined exterminators, devouring swarms, and other intrinsically unreasonable faction- though maybe less so against the Fanatical Purifiers, since they can eventually be converted with enough work. (As I believe happened in your own LP) If you're in a war with an ally, then liberating allied worlds should tick back your war exhaustion slightly, and supporting allied fleets should slow it down. I agree that the more apocalyptic your bombardment policy is, they more they're going to protest and complain.
I can see isolationists being okay with war when you're maintaining a buffer around your territory. Xenophobes would probably be okay with you obliterating the stations that border your territory, but they'd hate having you try to get vassals or (god forbid) integrate new worlds.
I need to dip into Stellaris modding and see if this is project is even remotely possible...
Post by: Rolan7 on March 22, 2018, 12:09:59 pm
You know, Paradox could always try something radical, like integrating War Exhaustion into their existing system of citizen factions. Each faction type as different goals in war; the materialists want more shit, the authoritarians want more worlds, the militarists want to win, the xenophiles want their border to be left the fuck alone, egalitarians want to end oppression, pacifists want he war to be over, and spiritualists want whatever the great space god tells them to want.I like this idea too! Just to add on - Pacifists should be relatively happy to be in defensive wars, including ones due to defensive pacts/"guarantee independence". Warmongers must be resisted!
Each faction could contribute to the war exhaustion based on their goal in the war. You're capturing lots of nice systems with plenty of resources? Materialists aren't going to complain, hell, throw in a strategic resource and they may even roll it back a bit. However, the pacifists are going to be upset as all hell that you're embarking on a war seemingly with the intention of just raiding resources from your neighbors, and the authoritarians aren't going to be impressed unless there was an actual world conquered in those resource rich systems.
Scale these effects by how many pops you have of any particular ethos, and bam, it's almost an organic system. If you're in a war and you just need a little bit longer, you can use faction suppression to cut down the influence of the peaceniks, or to encourage the militarists who approve of you trucking across the system and showing the enemy fleets whose boss even if you don't actually conquer ground.
Post by: Zangi on March 22, 2018, 12:24:10 pm
(But really, should be some logic for when the same enemy continues to declare war again and again. Final solution.)
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 22, 2018, 12:26:34 pm
Isolationists want to be left alone. Being in a defensive war would really motivate their type. Cause GTFO invaders, up till you push them out.
(But really, should be some logic for when the same enemy continues to declare war again and again. Final solution.)
The solution is simple. Make the Isolationist faction happy when you create a buffer zone out of taken systems/planets. And then expand that buffer zone to the entire galaxy.
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 22, 2018, 12:30:38 pm
IMHO, xenophiles should be proponents of war against determined exterminators, devouring swarms, and other intrinsically unreasonable faction- though maybe less so against the Fanatical Purifiers, since they can eventually be converted with enough work. (As I believe happened in your own LP) If you're in a war with an ally, then liberating allied worlds should tick back your war exhaustion slightly, and supporting allied fleets should slow it down. I agree that the more apocalyptic your bombardment policy is, they more they're going to protest and complain.There could be different xenophilic factions, based upon what the secondary or tertiary ethos, or even civics are. So a xenophile/militiarist/individualist would advocate wars of liberation against hegemonic slavers, or containment wars against the exterminator-type states, while the more neutral xenophile faction is neither supportive nor opposed to war as long as xenos casualties are minimized. Isolationists sound pretty hilarious, getting angry at conquering worlds, and I suppose they could be fun as a faction that supports everything in war (collateral damage, heavy bombardment, planet destroyers) EXCEPT conquering xenos pops or subjugating enemy states, because they just want to be left alone and not get involved with xenos. Regarding fanatical purifiers becoming pacifists, I'm not sure if it can be done in the current game peacefully like I did in my LP, and if you can I haven't seen it happen yet. This may tie into the devs making the fanatical purifier civic impossible to add or remove. It's possible that the civic can still be made to go inactive, which will make the state normal again, but I haven't tested or seen this yet. This all sounds like dank beans ideas though
I can see isolationists being okay with war when you're maintaining a buffer around your territory. Xenophobes would probably be okay with you obliterating the stations that border your territory, but they'd hate having you try to get vassals or (god forbid) integrate new worlds.
I need to dip into Stellaris modding and see if this is project is even remotely possible
Post by: Mephansteras on March 22, 2018, 12:37:05 pm
WW for both sides is sitting at about 10 for us and 7 for them. We can't win-win as far as I can tell because that other empire controls some of the systems and planets. A status quo peace would win it for us, I think, but I didn't start the war so I can't end it.
Is my only option really to just wait it out for however long it takes for attrition to end the war?
Is there some planet maybe that wasn't conquered by us and one of that faction still holds? If so, is there an easy way to find it? Because these factions have stuff scattered around the galaxy and manually looking at each system to see if one of them has a planet we don't own yet is going to be annoying.
I suppose I could declare war on that other empire to try and take the stuff they've taken from the first federation and then go for a status quo peace, but I'm not sure the rest of the federation would be willing to start a war when we're in one already.
And that empire is second in power only to myself, so while we'd win it could be annoying.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 22, 2018, 12:37:45 pm
Doing this to the AI is probably going to be difficult though. I have no idea how you'd influence their ethics to the point where they'd shift ethics away. Using the spiritualist colossus might work but sounds slow and tedious.
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 22, 2018, 12:46:38 pm
Civics are automatically disabled if you don't meet the ethics, which is most likely to occur with shifting your ethics. This certainly includes Purifiers and I've seen a bunch of people talk about strategically disabling and enabling it by shifting their ethics. In the early game you shift away to disable Purifiers and engage in normal diplomacy, so that you don't get jumped by a bunch of empires at once. Later on, once you're strong enough, you shift back to your original ethics and get the purification train rolling.There's also the problem that if they're xenophobic-spiritualist, the colossus would be ineffective at persuading them to ethic shift. One possible way would be to just completely surround their Empire with overwhelming force, but never allow them to ever go to war. After a while the pacifist faction should become pretty stronk and eventually one of their leaders should become the pacifist leader, and that could cause them to ethic shift to isolationist. Then you can invade them, take over their worlds, add loads of xenos and start another war where you let them retake their worlds and allow the xenos to pop individualist and xenoist factions, but I think that late into the game the purifiers would have all the government ethic buildings and modules needed to retain total control
Doing this to the AI is probably going to be difficult though. I have no idea how you'd influence their ethics to the point where they'd shift ethics away. Using the spiritualist colossus might work but sounds slow and tedious.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 22, 2018, 12:52:26 pm
Post by: Baffler on March 22, 2018, 01:45:06 pm
IMHO, xenophiles should be proponents of war against determined exterminators, devouring swarms, and other intrinsically unreasonable faction- though maybe less so against the Fanatical Purifiers, since they can eventually be converted with enough work. (As I believe happened in your own LP) If you're in a war with an ally, then liberating allied worlds should tick back your war exhaustion slightly, and supporting allied fleets should slow it down. I agree that the more apocalyptic your bombardment policy is, they more they're going to protest and complain.There could be different xenophilic factions, based upon what the secondary or tertiary ethos, or even civics are. So a xenophile/militiarist/individualist would advocate wars of liberation against hegemonic slavers, or containment wars against the exterminator-type states, while the more neutral xenophile faction is neither supportive nor opposed to war as long as xenos casualties are minimized. Isolationists sound pretty hilarious, getting angry at conquering worlds, and I suppose they could be fun as a faction that supports everything in war (collateral damage, heavy bombardment, planet destroyers) EXCEPT conquering xenos pops or subjugating enemy states, because they just want to be left alone and not get involved with xenos. Regarding fanatical purifiers becoming pacifists, I'm not sure if it can be done in the current game peacefully like I did in my LP, and if you can I haven't seen it happen yet. This may tie into the devs making the fanatical purifier civic impossible to add or remove. It's possible that the civic can still be made to go inactive, which will make the state normal again, but I haven't tested or seen this yet. This all sounds like dank beans ideas though
I can see isolationists being okay with war when you're maintaining a buffer around your territory. Xenophobes would probably be okay with you obliterating the stations that border your territory, but they'd hate having you try to get vassals or (god forbid) integrate new worlds.
I need to dip into Stellaris modding and see if this is project is even remotely possible
How would this system work with hive minds who don't have factions or pop happiness though? You can't really have them just be willing to fight indefinitely. The only way I can think of to do it is to use basically the system we have now except exhaustion can bump downward too because of successes, but that would make them far more powerful than normal empires when it comes to waging war, especially aggressive wars, on top of all the other advantages they have.
Post by: Draignean on March 22, 2018, 02:14:58 pm
How would this system work with hive minds who don't have factions or pop happiness though? You can't really have them just be willing to fight indefinitely. The only way I can think of to do it is to use basically the system we have now except exhaustion can bump downward too because of successes, but that would make them far more powerful than normal empires when it comes to waging war, especially aggressive wars, on top of all the other advantages they have.
For my part, I'm perfectly willing to let hive minds not worry as much* about war exhaustion. It's a hive mind, the war is over when it says its over. There's no committee against it, no people that will rebel against it, nothing to bar its decisions. Granted, showing it that a particular front is untenable for expansion should certainly slow one down. Depending on the type of gestalt, I'd basically set it up so that there's a hidden faction with a particular set of war exhaustion rules unique to the type of gestalt, and that faction has 100% of the population. Your basic joe-shmoe swarm probably is happiest when it's actually taking worlds for itself, regardless of whether they're inhabited or not, and detests losing ground or being uprooted from previously claimed world. Devouring swarms would get more a flavoring of militarist and authoritarian where they can roll back war exhaustion by taking inhabited worlds and gain it more slowly in fleet combat. Robots would likely get more shadings of materialism, and so on.
*I'm also willing to let other empires suffer reduced war exhaustion when fighting swarms. Because shit gets real when the zerg show up.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 22, 2018, 02:22:32 pm
Post by: Zangi on March 22, 2018, 02:28:54 pm
*I'm also willing to let other empires suffer reduced war exhaustion when fighting swarms. Because shit gets real when the zerg show up.Or when facing any other threat that'll do horrible things to your pops if you lose. Yes, converting my pops into hive mind zombies, robotic abominations, or into some sort of hoo-doo spirit things are one of those horrible thing.
Also existential threats.
Post by: LoSboccacc on March 22, 2018, 04:56:05 pm
I think the problem is too much is factored toward balance.
well that's the problem with multiplayer games
Post by: Cruxador on March 22, 2018, 04:58:45 pm
It's not really a multiplayer game, though. Paradox may play it that way in their office, but most of the players don't.I think the problem is too much is factored toward balance.
well that's the problem with multiplayer games
Post by: Rolan7 on March 22, 2018, 05:08:40 pm
We tried several times to play CK2 multiplayer and it always desynced. Regardless of who hosted, no mods involved.
Stellaris's gameplay is... Well actually, I watched a friend play, and played on my laptop, and here's the thing: It plays abominably slow at "fastest" without saying anything. I'm literally talking like 5x, conservatively.
I haven't actually told said friend because they still enjoy the game, but just imagine that. On fastest, each day takes more than a second... And they think that's just how it is.
We tried over years and CK2 never synced right, so there's no reason for me to support trying a Stellaris multiplayer game with my friend group.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 22, 2018, 05:15:44 pm
Post by: Kanil on March 22, 2018, 05:24:50 pm
... Well actually, I watched a friend play, and played on my laptop, and here's the thing: It plays abominably slow at "fastest" without saying anything. I'm literally talking like 5x, conservatively.You'd be surprised how quickly time flies when you're busy shouting profanities at your friends.
I haven't actually told said friend because they still enjoy the game, but just imagine that. On fastest, each day takes more than a second... And they think that's just how it is.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 22, 2018, 05:28:02 pm
Hence having hundreds of hours of CK2 and Stellaris, because Steam is fucking retarded enough to count obvious sleep-hours as playing time.
Works in their favor, so yeah.
We played CK2's After The End for a couple decades and loved it, it's just that it started dropping us after ~30 years. Repeatedly.
We honestly can't figure out how anyone is able to play CK2 multiplayer for more than ~50 years without desyncs.
In other words, it's just our situation. Technical issues.
Stellaris has exceeded my (occasionally very obnoxious) expectations, and I'm glad to own it.
And I'm not particularly upset that my friends "own" it, since it's not like we could play multiplayer anyway.
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 22, 2018, 06:24:14 pm
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on March 22, 2018, 06:38:02 pm
Time flies when you have a laptop to stay "connected" and are playing on your desktop~
Hence having hundreds of hours of CK2 and Stellaris, because Steam is fucking retarded enough to count obvious sleep-hours as playing time.
Works in their favor, so yeah.
We played CK2's After The End for a couple decades and loved it, it's just that it started dropping us after ~30 years. Repeatedly.
We honestly can't figure out how anyone is able to play CK2 multiplayer for more than ~50 years without desyncs.
In other words, it's just our situation. Technical issues.
Stellaris has exceeded my (occasionally very obnoxious) expectations, and I'm glad to own it.
And I'm not particularly upset that my friends "own" it, since it's not like we could play multiplayer anyway.
Stellaris multiplayer allows for re-syncing during an active game, you don't have to restart the game if you want to join a match, and hot-join is incorporated so everyone doesn't have to be there at the start, if I recall correctly. Can't say too much about the first since I don't think I've ever had a desync after several hours of playtime in it. There's a world of difference between CK2 and Stellaris multiplayer.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 22, 2018, 06:50:56 pm
But I have to emphasize how it ran so much slower for my friends, and even for me on my laptop for most of my playtime, than on my desktop.
And that they still love the game. And unless they run across this thread, they have no idea.
It's actually a good call by the devs, probably. It still plays almost as well as the one game I consider similar, Alpha Centauri.
Which has a terrible interface, but above and beyond for it's time. And Stellaris has a mediocre interface, terrible for its time. Decent I guess.
Post by: Persus13 on March 22, 2018, 07:30:09 pm
And yes, depending on how old/what kind of PC you have, Paradox games run a lot slower, so most of the time I run speed 5 all the time. My primary gaming computer is a laptop, and it can run HoIIV, but its super slow, so its not really worth it. However, Stellaris is a lot better, but smaller galaxies and low settings are what I stick to. EUIV's game speed tends to vary, depending on whether they optimized the game in the last patch, and CKII has been the fastest for a while now.
Post by: Mephansteras on March 22, 2018, 07:40:15 pm
Can I just say...that is the lamest ending for a 4x game I've encountered?
Post by: Draignean on March 22, 2018, 08:26:40 pm
Just finished my space dwarves game. First time I've ever actually bothered to win a full game of Stellaris. Usually I get bored and quit because the game goes so slow.
Can I just say...that is the lamest ending for a 4x game I've encountered?
Does it say 'YOU WIN' in monospace and shoot the pixel fireworks from the old Solitaire games?
Post by: Rolan7 on March 22, 2018, 08:33:16 pm
I assume
Post by: umiman on March 22, 2018, 11:21:09 pm
It's literally just a text box. You can also easily end up "winning" by accident.Just finished my space dwarves game. First time I've ever actually bothered to win a full game of Stellaris. Usually I get bored and quit because the game goes so slow.
Can I just say...that is the lamest ending for a 4x game I've encountered?
Does it say 'YOU WIN' in monospace and shoot the pixel fireworks from the old Solitaire games?
The game doesn't give a shit about you winning. There's actually only one achievement related to it, and it's "win the game in any of the three ways". I'm not even sure why these half-assed victory conditions are even in the game, but I can say the same about a lot of the things in Stellaris.
Like, you'd think you'd be able to win with ascension of some kind. Tech victory? Psychic victory? Robot victory?
Post by: Mephansteras on March 23, 2018, 12:36:28 am
That's all. Even Master of Orion 1 had a better victory screen back in the 90's.
Post by: Draignean on March 23, 2018, 01:40:03 am
Yeah, pretty much. It said I got a federation victory and showed the members of the federation. With a nice picture of my current leader. Oh, and a Continue or Quit option.
That's all. Even Master of Orion 1 had a better victory screen back in the 90's.
I mean, I don't mind not having much to work with. Sword of the Stars victory was basically just one unique piece of artwork depicting your species in some regal or conquering position, and it was still worth it because you never saw the damn thing and it was cool art.
Should still feel unique and at least a little special, though I understand why they'd go with something entirely text based given the multitude of potential victors and victories.
Post by: Sartain on March 23, 2018, 02:54:14 am
Just finished my space dwarves game. First time I've ever actually bothered to win a full game of Stellaris. Usually I get bored and quit because the game goes so slow.
Can I just say...that is the lamest ending for a 4x game I've encountered?
Does it say 'YOU WIN' in monospace and shoot the pixel fireworks from the old Solitaire games?
Pretty much, yes :)
Post by: Hanzoku on March 23, 2018, 09:58:56 am
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 23, 2018, 02:28:55 pm
Post by: Descan on March 23, 2018, 06:13:30 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on March 23, 2018, 06:19:04 pm
I'd hazard a statement though that a satisfying victory is going to need satisfying gameplay and progression mechanics, which currently stellaris is sorely lacking. So it's got a long way to go before it's ready to worry about how you win, when currently the worry is still about how you play.
Post by: Spehss _ on March 25, 2018, 10:26:57 pm
No purifiers yet, at least.
The new war system seems underwhelming. I'm disappointed I can't just declare war on an empire on impulse now. Seems like it would make trying to purge xenos more difficult, because now it seems I have to
Post by: Aoi on March 26, 2018, 01:32:29 am
Post by: Paul on March 26, 2018, 10:47:52 pm
I swear, the one game I try running a non-xenophobe empire to try diplomacy instead of having a bunch of neighbors that hate my guts, and the game gives me neighbors that are all xenophobes. Thanks, game.
No purifiers yet, at least.
The new war system seems underwhelming. I'm disappointed I can't just declare war on an empire on impulse now. Seems like it would make trying to purge xenos more difficult, because now it seems I have toplan false flagsmake claims on enemy territory before declaring war.
I tried a run as a materialist xenophile empire with open migration and a plan to have a big multicultural empire. The four neighboring empires were Devouring Swarm, Fanatic Purifiers, Determined Exterminators, and Evangelizing Zealots. Shortly I found out there were two more evangelizing zealots near the first (they all formed a federation...), a standard hive empire, and a driven assimilators. So much for multi-cultural empire. I managed to get some refugees from the fanatic purifiers while they were being eaten by the devouring swarm, but I never did get my multicultural empire. The devouring swarm consumed the purifiers and most of the standard hive empire before being totally annexed by a xenophile fallen empire (who didn't awaken, just declared war and annexed them and remained fallen). The assimilators assimilated the rest of the hive empire, the zealot federation wiped out the exterminators, and I managed to squeeze a few systems out of the exterminators while they were getting beaten down by the zealots. After the dust settled, on one side I had a federation of zealots owning 1/2 the map who now had their sights set on their only two neighbors - me and the assimilators - and on the other side a fallen empire who owned 1/4 of the map. My only friend was a robot empire who would happily assimilate me if they could.
I was still doing OK until the prethoryn showed up and the game just up and gave them my dyson sphere system and another system I had built up for the incoming invasion, my two most well defended systems along the map edge (maxed starbase with maxed defense platforms) that they were heading towards and plopped 580k worth of ships on 4 systems. Two of my starbases got insta-replaced with their 25k starbases and the other two didn't last long, so my 250k power worth of fleets that I thought was going to be supported by a 45k starbase ended up fighting a 25k starbase in addition to the 146k of ships. They won, but immediately got stomped by another 290k ships from the two neighboring systems. I retreated but ended up on the other side of my empire for some reason since the fleet's original home was one of the starbases that got annexed, so I couldn't reinforce the systems in time and they wiped out all the neighboring well defended starbases and left me facing a big stack of about 400k fleet power with a fleet that wasn't even 200k even after being merged with reinforcements being built. And without the power from the dyson sphere I had to shut down my mineral replicators and didn't have minerals to reinforce my fleet in time. Before I could do much else the rest of the prethoryn arrived and I quickly lost my two main habitat systems that were producing most of the rest of my minerals. Needless to say, the rest of the war did not go well.
Post by: PTTG?? on March 26, 2018, 11:01:28 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on March 27, 2018, 09:00:43 am
I'll say from my own experience it's always seemed to be a toss up, sometimes my neighbors are friendly, sometimes not. I've not noticed a particular trend, so I'd assume it's random, but I've not paid enough attention to be sure.
In my last game (last game where I wasn't a no diplomacy civic at least.) I was slaving despots and had to my west three empires, 2 friendly religious nations and a not very friendly religious nation, to my south a not very friendly religious nation, to my east a warrior nation who could have swung either way friendly or not, but I put the work and bribes in to make them friendly. Similarly, the friendly religious nations could have allied up with the unfriendly religious nations, which would have made them unfriendly to me, but I made friends with them before they did, which made them unfriendly to the unfriendly religious nations.
Ultimately it was a very friendly galaxy for those willing to put in the effort to make friends, almost the whole galaxy (eventually the whole galaxy outside of places I owned) joined a religious themed federation, even I did for a time, but the pacifism of the group eventually caused me to break away from them and conquer the unaligned nations for slaves, that made them hate me for about 200 years, but eventually I made friends with them and rejoined the federation once I had killed the Crisis. So the game ended with everyone outside of two surviving AEs in a big friend group. If I was materialist I probably would have found the place a lot less friendly then I did though.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 27, 2018, 09:46:09 am
At some point that behaviour was changed. My latest games don't suffer from that problem anymore. I get a much better range of ethics opposing me and can make a few friends more often than not.
Post by: Spehss _ on March 27, 2018, 09:54:56 am
How do diplomacy? The first xenophobe neighbor I found in this run, I managed to form a non aggression pact immediately and get their trust up to +50 from -40. The other xenophobe civ I've found was further away at the time of first contact and kept refusing a non-aggression pact. Now due to their xenophobia and border friction their opinion is too low for them to accept any trade I can offer them. It's always stuck at -1000 at the trade screen. And they refuse non-aggression.
I mean, I figure once I have my economy built up I could afford to just go to war with them occasionally instead, but I'm hesitant to initiate war since in the past it seems I always got stomped.
Post by: Biowraith on March 27, 2018, 11:47:25 am
Post by: Criptfeind on March 27, 2018, 01:38:27 pm
Generally making friends is most easily done with a Guarantee independence as Biowraith said, followed by a NAP and then a lot of gifts once they hit trust cap, eventually making alliance possible. Xenophobes have a lot of negative acceptance modifiers to more important pacts though, which aren't as easy to overcome as opinion modifiers, they'll have negative relationship from being Xenophobes which gives negative acceptance, and have straight up negative acceptance from being xenophobes, and more often have personality types that have negative acceptance. Overcoming all of that is hard to impossible often, it's rare to make close friends with xenophobes unless there's a existential threat to drive you two together or at least some very close common ground. (Like being spiritualist.) And if possible you'll want to do this before you actually have borders with them, otherwise friction will drive you apart (and right NOW if the AI starts putting claims on your systems that's basically any diplomacy possible with them gone for the rest of the game unless you give them those systems. Having systems claimed by others gives a quite large permanent negative opinion modifier. I hope they add the ability to get others to revoke their claims eventually, preferably though diplomacy.)
Post by: Rolan7 on March 27, 2018, 03:53:04 pm
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on March 27, 2018, 04:03:28 pm
I think -1000 usually means that something like their stance is preventing the trade regardless of how much you offer. Like if they're neutral to you, they won't offer their research for love or money. I've also seen "unwilling to trade a bulk payment for a monthly payment" (paraphrased) or "unwilling to trade away that resource right now".
Another is a simple 'we don't have what you are asking', such as more minerals per month than what they are actually getting.
Post by: Biowraith on March 27, 2018, 04:04:32 pm
One other way to get a decent relations boost to open up treaties is declaring rivalry with their rivals, but obviously that's less useful for more widespread diplomacy unless it's a universally hated rival (purifiers or something).
Post by: Spehss _ on March 27, 2018, 05:34:06 pm
They are a hedgemonic imperialist empire, or something like that. They just keep claiming more and more of my systems. I suspect that's how their AI works, making them greedy land grabbers.
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 28, 2018, 08:02:47 am
The uber-hedgehedgemonic imperialistThe problem with the plantoid pack is that every plant empire is a hedgemonic imperialist, searching for slaves to trim them into perfection.
Post by: Teneb on March 28, 2018, 11:49:03 am
Post by: umiman on March 28, 2018, 08:23:57 pm
Anyway, playing a bunch of Dorfs this time around. I have lots of Dorf slaves and we turn all the other species into food. Been working out so far, but then again I have yet to find any single sort of "negative social unrest modifier" be any sort of problem.
It's been fairly challenging so far. Growth has been limited because like the other posters I'm sandwiched between opposing empires. Two buggers intent on making federations have closed in on my top and bottom, making me an anti-federation canniballistic slavemonger in the middle. Because of the difficulty they're stronger than me in every way, but so far in the wars we've waged I've managed to white peace both times after SIGNIFICANT fighting.
Hell, the first war was crazy difficult. They were sending destroyers at me when I only still had my 20 starting cap of corvettes.
I basically get a short little time to rebuild before the truce ends and I go to war again. So far the only thing keeping me in the battle is the fact that the AI is completely moronic and equipped all their ships to be picket ships. So both empires only field fleets of just AA. I have no missiles. Also they both only use lasers in their regular weapon slots, so I just max out shields.
I highly recommend max difficulty for those who think the game is a super cakewalk. Makes it more interesting.
Post by: Bralbaard on March 29, 2018, 01:34:31 pm
Post by: Nelia Hawk on March 29, 2018, 02:41:45 pm
the unity decrease is cause they changed the balance a bit with how the cost increase or such
guess best thing would be to just start a new game with the patch so it doesnt feel like "my everything is lower now"
Post by: umiman on March 31, 2018, 12:59:43 pm
Not. A. Single. Xeno. Lives.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Nothing.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Not even the bacteria survives the purge.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Dorfs forever.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Except Professor Zarg
(https://i.gyazo.com/368084f914f1d5fcc267b105d63ee4e7.png)
Post by: Spehss _ on March 31, 2018, 04:08:27 pm
-snip-
Neat. How many years did that take ingame? I don't think I've ever made it past early game, longest game I'd played before losing interest was about 70 years.
Post by: umiman on March 31, 2018, 04:15:18 pm
I took that screenshot at 2440 years (I know it exact because that's when my final peace treaty was expiring).-snip-
Neat. How many years did that take ingame? I don't think I've ever made it past early game, longest game I'd played before losing interest was about 70 years.
Yeah, it's super boring when you're steamrolling. Also the crisis didn't spawn this time, but it was only 40 years after they start rolling for the chance to start spawning.
This game was really really difficult for the most part because of the max difficulty settings. The AI was always more powerful than me and I basically had to fight three massive empires forever. I could never get into a position to actually crush them in any meaningful way and we must have fought like 10 - 15 times, each time was white peace due to both sides being unable to do anything. Actually it was more like me holding on by the skin of my teeth. Most wars would end up with me at 100% war fatigue and the AI at like 70% or something and rushing to inflict as much damage as I can in 2 years before I'm forced to surrender. Pretty frigging sure max difficulty AI gets cheat bonuses to war fatigue by the way.
I've never played a game where the entire game I had more admirals and generals than scientists or governors. Right from the start I had to use 4 admirals just to live as the AI stacks were so big. At the end of the game I had 7 admirals and 3 generals. I actually had sectors with no governors for the longest time due to lack of leader slots.
My big break came when the robot FE wanted to inoculate my Dorfs and I said no. So they came to attack me. They did this without awakening so they only had a relatively small fleet of about 50k each. Not to mention they were so far away from me and I could see the straight single line they were taking towards my capital. So I just fortified and beat them back several times, while researching their debris for the massive jump to late game tech. So with dark matter power everything and tachyon lances and so on, I could obliterate the other empires finally and steamrolled the game.
--------
Edit: I think if you find yourself getting bored because of how easy it is to steamroll in this game, just crank the difficulty to max. It sounds lame since all it does is let the AI cheat like a MF-er, but from my personal experience it makes Stellaris way more fun.
Post by: Spehss _ on March 31, 2018, 04:26:06 pm
Edit: I think if you find yourself getting bored because of how easy it is to steamroll in this game, just crank the difficulty to max. It sounds lame since all it does is let the AI cheat like a MF-er, but from my personal experience it makes Stellaris way more fun.
Nah, the difficulty doesn't seem to be the problem for me. In most of the longest games I've played, I'd lose interest after getting into an unwinnable war and losing most of my fleet. I would get tired of having annoying alien neighbors so I'd try starting a war to wipe one out and get in over my head. That was before 2.0 and war and border expansion changed.
Post by: Damiac on April 01, 2018, 09:46:39 am
This was my early experience too. After 4 or 5 times of that I kind of realized you are supposed to have your navy at the cap all the time. AI is very focused on keeping a competitive navy, they don't seem to ever try to go greedy and focus economy to the detriment of their navy.Edit: I think if you find yourself getting bored because of how easy it is to steamroll in this game, just crank the difficulty to max. It sounds lame since all it does is let the AI cheat like a MF-er, but from my personal experience it makes Stellaris way more fun.
Nah, the difficulty doesn't seem to be the problem for me. In most of the longest games I've played, I'd lose interest after getting into an unwinnable war and losing most of my fleet. I would get tired of having annoying alien neighbors so I'd try starting a war to wipe one out and get in over my head. That was before 2.0 and war and border expansion changed.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 02, 2018, 02:08:57 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on April 02, 2018, 04:06:22 pm
I noticed this in my Space Dwarf game where my 20k+ strength defense stations were putting me over the edge of fleet power even compared to, say, the FEs.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 02, 2018, 10:10:01 pm
I find this works wonderful for early game exterminators vs insane AI
Post by: Cruxador on April 02, 2018, 10:35:18 pm
Post by: Telgin on April 10, 2018, 09:29:19 am
I'm pretty surprised at how difficult it is to mod species in this game. All of the tutorials I've found are for much older versions of the game and don't seem to work anymore. After activating the mod, the game loads just fine, but the new species isn't available. Nothing in the game's error logs either. It wouldn't be so bad if it didn't take 30 seconds for the game to start up to test the mod.
At this point I'm wondering if it's just me having the portraits in the wrong DDS format, since all of the tutorials only tell me to export to DXT5 DDS, yet GIMP's DDS plugin gives at least 3 different versions of DXT5 that it can export. But then, I'd expect the species name to at least show up in the empire builder.
Oh well, maybe I'll have to just play vanilla and maybe graduate to the Star Trek mod once I've done that for a while.
Post by: Bormok, God of Mud on April 10, 2018, 10:58:05 am
- Add DDS files to mod\MOD\gfx\models\portraits\CLASS
- Go to mod\MOD\gfx\portraits\portraits and edit a copy of the TXT file appropriate for your species class.
- Go to mod\MOD\common\species_classes and edit a copy of 01_base_species_classes.txt in order to add your species name to the appropriate class.
- If you'd like the portrait to be used by a default empire, add a TXT file to mod\MOD\prescripted_countries.
Post by: Telgin on April 10, 2018, 12:20:07 pm
After deleting and recreating the mod, I followed a different tutorial for setting up name lists, and that works, so I know the mod was being loaded at least. I'll fool with it more tonight and hopefully get it working.
Incidentally, I wish there was a more comprehensive guide on modding. I know that there's a Stellaris wiki with some information, but it's pretty sparse and out of date. I guess with 2.0 being fairly new, that's not surprising.
Post by: Bormok, God of Mud on April 10, 2018, 03:57:46 pm
Post by: umiman on April 17, 2018, 10:49:05 pm
I added a few mods like NSC (Next Generation Ships) and more traditions and ascensions and stuff like that. I figure since everyone gets access to OP stuff, everything will be gravy right?
Well, it turns out even at max difficulty and max AI aggression, the AI actually is worse than vanilla. Noticeably worse. In vanilla the AI would basically never stop declaring war on me ever at max difficulty but when the game is modded, the AI doesn't really do anything. In fact, despite all the bonuses to traditions, tech, and resources, they constantly fall behind me, usually right from the beginning. Which is strange considering they get:
Quote
AI empires receive +60% naval capacity/technology/unity and +100% energy/minerals/food. NPCs receive +100% ship weapon damage and +100% hull/armour/shield.
So I figure maybe the AI doesn't know how to use the modded stuff. But when I check they are happily getting the traditions, using the OP weapons and gear on their ships, using the new edicts for their planets, and so on. So they clearly know how to use them.
My current theory is that because the mods give empires so much to do internally, the AI can't be bothered declaring war because it's spending all its time improving internally instead.
Either that or it's mentally handicapped.
Any ideas?
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 18, 2018, 06:58:27 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 18, 2018, 07:40:10 am
My current theory is that because the mods give empires so much to do internally, the AI can't be bothered declaring war because it's spending all its time improving internally instead.
lol? that's not how that works
Post by: umiman on April 18, 2018, 03:14:15 pm
My favorite part of it is this:
Quote
Reduced firing speed on Colossus from 90 to 30 days. Reduced weapon charge time on Colossus from 270 to 90 days
Yay they're actually usable now.
Post by: Shadowlord on April 18, 2018, 03:23:38 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on April 18, 2018, 03:31:39 pm
Post by: umiman on April 18, 2018, 05:10:28 pm
Broken? In what ways? ( I haven't tried it yet)All my weapons have no sounds or effects.
Edit: Also this: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1140543652
Quote
2.0.3 is completely broken and this mod will not be updated for it
I will not be updating this mod for 2.0.3 as currently the AI will not build starbase modules, starbase buildings, and it will allocate funds for Starbases. As such, it's common to for the AI to have up to 10000 minerals devoted to starbases that it will never spend. Further, this prevents the AI from ever being a competitive threat to players.
Post by: Mephansteras on April 18, 2018, 06:24:46 pm
Post by: Draignean on April 18, 2018, 06:31:50 pm
Post by: Orb on April 18, 2018, 06:47:34 pm
::)
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 18, 2018, 06:52:36 pm
Don't... don't they playtest these things before they push them?Time runs convoluted in Sweden
Post by: Teneb on April 18, 2018, 07:25:08 pm
Further, there are no test players in Sweden, they are frightened by long winters.Don't... don't they playtest these things before they push them?Time runs convoluted in Sweden
Post by: smjjames on April 18, 2018, 07:27:40 pm
Further, there are no test players in Sweden, they are frightened by long winters.Don't... don't they playtest these things before they push them?Time runs convoluted in Sweden
Or maybe all the hand grenades?
Okay, maybe that was a bit tasteless.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 18, 2018, 07:28:33 pm
[Muffled silence of Finns]Further, there are no test players in Sweden, they are frightened by long winters.Don't... don't they playtest these things before they push them?Time runs convoluted in Sweden
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on April 18, 2018, 08:09:27 pm
Yep.
Post by: smjjames on April 18, 2018, 08:13:45 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on April 18, 2018, 08:32:46 pm
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on April 18, 2018, 09:07:18 pm
Jesus there's not even a mode where the AI doesn't cheat. Their ships still magically get more damage and health at the lowest setting.
That's only the Non-Playable Empires (ie. the Fallen, Marauders, and Crisis). It is likely a stand-in for repeatable techs.
Post by: Sirian on April 18, 2018, 09:11:00 pm
Jesus there's not even a mode where the AI doesn't cheat. Their ships still magically get more damage and health at the lowest setting.
That's pretty sad. I was trying to get back into Stellaris in the last few days, but got kinda pissed with the pirates. These guys keep respawning and seemingly need no economy to sustain their fleet. Whereas, if I want to build a fleet as strong as theirs, that means tanking my energy and minerals to the ground in maintenance costs.
Why a small flotilla of corvettes with a couple destroyers need the combined output of several systems and planets to sustain them is beyond me.
Though if you think about it, most of the game makes absolutely no sense from a realism perspective. It's basically designed like a board game.
For example : spending energy to recruit leaders. Yea I know, these are supposed to be energy-backed credits, but it still doesn't make sense having to cover planets with power plants just so that I can sift through a dozen guys until I find one that I want to keep. I could go on.
Post by: umiman on April 18, 2018, 09:18:54 pm
There are even mods that make pirates more fun believe it or not. One of my mods turns pirate spawns into actual realms that you can interact with. They also operate casinos and you can deal with them like little mini mercenary bands.
Also I used to care a lot more about the AI cheating until I learned the game is way more fun when the AI actually puts up a fight. Of course it'd be better if it didn't cheat but... Meh. Paradox will never do anything about it and there are some mods that help out with AI here and there.
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The 2.02 rollback is now live. I highly recommend switching back to that one if you're playing Stellaris right now.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on April 18, 2018, 09:32:41 pm
I mostly fix everything I hate about the game with a copious amount of mods.
There are even mods that make pirates more fun believe it or not. One of my mods turns pirate spawns into actual realms that you can interact with. They also operate casinos and you can deal with them like little mini mercenary bands.
Also I used to care a lot more about the AI cheating until I learned the game is way more fun when the AI actually puts up a fight. Of course it'd be better if it didn't cheat but... Meh. Paradox will never do anything about it and there are some mods that help out with AI here and there.
--------
The 2.02 rollback is now live. I highly recommend switching back to that one if you're playing Stellaris right now.
What's your modlist, out of curiousity? I'm always looking for neat shit to keep pushing the boundaries the game will accept.
Post by: umiman on April 18, 2018, 10:40:36 pm
What's your modlist, out of curiousity? I'm always looking for neat shit to keep pushing the boundaries the game will accept.There's like 70 items on there. Lots of graphical stuff. Tonnes and tonnes of new events. I tried some of the OP tech and stuff but they didn't really work out since it only amplifies the massive difference between a player and an AI.
Big ones are all of the Stellar Expansion stuff:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=718529178
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A lot of QOL stuff from this guy:
https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=717228576
His Human FE thing is the one that creates playable casinos I think. Also does a fast start thing which is pretty nice to have when you're sick of doing the same goddamn thing every start of the game.
Also his autobuild, autoupgrade script is a godsend.
-----
Lots of event and content stuff like these:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=865040033
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=727000451
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=721416416
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1313065097
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1227620643
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More graphical stuff like these:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1226833540
More insults:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1223822935
More war names:
^ Being able to turn off the giant blinding lightbulb at the centre of the galaxy is amazing.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=741194923
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No diplomatic spam when it doesn't involve you:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1313147672
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More traits:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1323750659
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1149888293
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=922791015
More traditions:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=946222466
More ascensions:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1067631798
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A UI actually designed for computers with 1080 resolutions so you don't need to endlessly scroll:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=684509615
A bunch of ship classes alongside new weapons and stuff:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=683230077
^ Also makes the ships smaller to make them more thematic and to make your capital ships stand out more. Lots of graphical mods also have compatibility patches for it. I played it a few games and it's not too bad. The ship classes are fun and distinctive and the AI uses them too.
-----
Lots and lots and lots of graphical pretties:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1085097357
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=902204956
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=873063455
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=701739734
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=682165224
----
Holy shit there's too many just grab stuff off workshop lol. Like I said I have around 70 so that's just a handful of them I got lazy after posting those.
One nice thing is that it's pretty easy to use a billion mods in Stellaris unlike other Paradox games. Also Stellaris's biggest problem was the lack of content so... mods really help this issue. Also they automate or get rid of a lot of useless shit. Like who thought making the automate exploration button a tech was a good idea?! Just give it to us at the start FFS.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on April 18, 2018, 11:09:49 pm
Holy shit there's too many just grab stuff off workshop lol. Like I said I have around 70 so that's just a handful of them I got lazy after posting those.
There's an easier way. Go to the main workshop page, then the browse dropdown bar to enter collections. You can create your own there, like this (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1364902762). After you go through the process and publish it, you can get a full compiled list that you can link and just mention a few of the highlights. Can even update it from time to time and potentially set up multiplayer games since everyone could have the same list.
Post by: umiman on April 18, 2018, 11:57:37 pm
These poor two guys are going to be stuck fighting together for the rest of time. There's a fallen empire blocking them from leaving. This is with 0.75x hyperlane density.
Edit: Wait they can't even fight each other. They're actually just stuck there looking at each other for the rest of time.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on April 19, 2018, 04:00:18 am
Post by: umiman on April 19, 2018, 11:49:58 am
Or at least until they slowly drag themselves up to jump enginesOne of them actually has a wormhole in there so I suspect they can leave. Not sure what the other will do.
The difference between 1x hyperlanes and 0.75x is so dramatic. I don't think going from a lot of lines to just single lanes per system is a 25% decrease...
Though apparently the next patch will change it so it's less dumb like that and will have clumps of systems separated by highways or something. That being said this current system is incredible for forcing conflict. On the other side of the map are three empires fighting over a single system.
Post by: PTTG?? on April 19, 2018, 11:58:48 am
This would definitely break much of the game, but I think it has potential.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on April 19, 2018, 12:20:01 pm
I want to set up a mod which creates zero hyperlanes, but makes every star have a gateway.
This would definitely break much of the game, but I think it has potential.
I believe one of the mods I have in the list I posted on the prior page opens up the sliders enough that it might be possible. There's at least one that causes your civil to start with the only exit being an under construction gateway, at least, and it is the literal only way out of the system.
Or at least until they slowly drag themselves up to jump enginesOne of them actually has a wormhole in there so I suspect they can leave. Not sure what the other will do.
The difference between 1x hyperlanes and 0.75x is so dramatic. I don't think going from a lot of lines to just single lanes per system is a 25% decrease...
Though apparently the next patch will change it so it's less dumb like that and will have clumps of systems separated by highways or something. That being said this current system is incredible for forcing conflict. On the other side of the map are three empires fighting over a single system.
Interesting mod I came across I'd like to mention that is also in the mod list. Has hyperlanes in the title, and through events, it adds and destroys hyperlanes at random every so many years in different quantities. Really makes things interesting, in my opinion. Fortresses wax and wane in importance more than just from territory capture, and paths to invade can open and close to change the strategic situation rapidly.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 19, 2018, 12:21:34 pm
I want to set up a mod which creates zero hyperlanes, but makes every star have a gateway.I thought you wrote wormholes at first, and was thinking about how that would work (I was imagining it'd be like hyperlanes but horribly rendered, forgetting that systems can only have one wormhole).
This would definitely break much of the game, but I think it has potential.
Your actual idea though, heh, that does almost sound fun. Sounds like it'd be a good thing for cooperative races... I picture defensive pacts forming rapidly, with xenophobe races living their worst nightmare and maybe even starting wars on multiple fronts.
I would disable natural hyperlanes in Space Empire IV sometimes. The game became a scientific race to reach the fairly late game tech for creating hyperlanes, which also comes with the tech for destroying hyperlanes. It was sorta like Stellaris 1.0 wormhole tech, with an incentive to make highly-fortified "hub" systems, clusters of close-together wormholes surrounded by platforms. Though mostly the AI just got confused :P
Post by: PTTG?? on April 19, 2018, 12:53:40 pm
I want to set up a mod which creates zero hyperlanes, but makes every star have a gateway.
This would definitely break much of the game, but I think it has potential.
I believe one of the mods I have in the list I posted on the prior page opens up the sliders enough that it might be possible. There's at least one that causes your civil to start with the only exit being an under construction gateway, at least, and it is the literal only way out of the system.
That's what gave me the idea, in fact. I think the sliders don't go down to 0 or up to 100% though. And come to think of it, you can't go to gateways you haven't discovered yet, so there would at least need to be some kind of scripting to reveal the whole galaxy.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 19, 2018, 01:55:48 pm
Post by: umiman on April 19, 2018, 04:34:37 pm
Aren't gateways closed to you if an enemy controls them? To prevent you from popping up in the middle of an enemy's empire and vise-versa? So wouldn't warfare be put on hold until someone develops jump drives?Yerp. Even then it'd be pretty silly because every battle you initiate you'd be at a sever disadvantage due to the recent jump modifier.
You'd have to mod that one out too.
Post by: PTTG?? on April 19, 2018, 06:21:09 pm
And since this is already a blatant stargate ripoff, I say instead of giving you the whole galaxy right off the bat, how about having an edict that puts 5% of your research points into discovering new stars?
Post by: Egan_BW on April 19, 2018, 09:31:06 pm
I like sci-fi settings where traveling between stars the old-fashioned way is necessary sometimes.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on April 19, 2018, 09:37:29 pm
Should be a few stars without any gates, and if you want to go there you need to send a giant wormgate-carrying ship on a very, very long sub-light journey. :P
I like sci-fi settings where traveling between stars the old-fashioned way is necessary sometimes.
Actually, that could be a way to achieve the scenario. Make a mod to the game to replace the existing hyperdrives with stuff like ion thrusters akin to the Pre-FTL mods, but with the gateway generation really ramped up and the tech for their activation (not construction) arriving as a tier 1 or tier 2 common tech (with cost adjusted). You have to go out and find the abandonned gateways with your STL survey ships, but once you find them, you have a spot you can FTL to.
Post by: Draignean on April 19, 2018, 10:01:31 pm
Should be a few stars without any gates, and if you want to go there you need to send a giant wormgate-carrying ship on a very, very long sub-light journey. :P
I like sci-fi settings where traveling between stars the old-fashioned way is necessary sometimes.
Actually, that could be a way to achieve the scenario. Make a mod to the game to replace the existing hyperdrives with stuff like ion thrusters akin to the Pre-FTL mods, but with the gateway generation really ramped up and the tech for their activation (not construction) arriving as a tier 1 or tier 2 common tech (with cost adjusted). You have to go out and find the abandonned gateways with your STL survey ships, but once you find them, you have a spot you can FTL to.
Everyone is Hiver now.
Post by: umiman on April 20, 2018, 12:49:48 am
This modder was certainly crafty. The chain of events certainly did not make me think zombie invasion. It was a really long and drawn out chain of events so when the zombies hit it came out of left field. Hell I certainly wasn't expecting it to take the role of the mid game crisis.
It's actually quite brutal. I'm losing pops every month or so and every time we do so we need to fight off a really powerful invasion force of zombies. I've already lost two core worlds to it.
I already have the cure, but I need to genemod my species to cure ourselves. It's taking a really, really long time. All the while my people are dying by the millions.
The worst part is it's almost time for the crisis to spawn.
Post by: PTTG?? on April 20, 2018, 02:07:34 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 20, 2018, 04:33:34 am
No! Is realist because there is no sound in space and goverment bureaucracy is shit!Broken? In what ways? ( I haven't tried it yet)All my weapons have no sounds or effects.
Edit: Also this: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1140543652Quote2.0.3 is completely broken and this mod will not be updated for it
I will not be updating this mod for 2.0.3 as currently the AI will not build starbase modules, starbase buildings, and it will allocate funds for Starbases. As such, it's common to for the AI to have up to 10000 minerals devoted to starbases that it will never spend. Further, this prevents the AI from ever being a competitive threat to players.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 20, 2018, 01:17:59 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 20, 2018, 03:30:49 pm
Saw that there were some updates, did they fix the AI
nope
maybe next patch
Post by: Damiac on April 20, 2018, 03:50:49 pm
Now it's less fun, less playable, the mechanics just seem like they're randomly being changed around... it's like 2.0 wasn't the awesome fix for everything like they hoped, but they're not willing to give up on it, so they're just hoping to get really lucky and stumble into good gameplay.
Is it just me, or did 2.0 make every issue 2.0 was supposed to fix worse?
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on April 20, 2018, 04:05:02 pm
I love this game.
Post by: Cruxador on April 20, 2018, 11:48:55 pm
This game is going backwards. It was more fun, playable, and seemed like someone had an idea of what the hell the game was supposed to be, even if it wasn't executed perfectly.Handing the reins over to Wiz was a mistake.
Post by: PTTG?? on April 21, 2018, 05:18:50 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 21, 2018, 05:23:09 pm
Post by: Teneb on April 23, 2018, 09:46:38 am
Detail on it seems scattered, but people on the Paradox Forums managed to dig this up:
Quote
MAIN FEATURES
Behind Closed Doors: Discover hidden traces of an ancient gateway network unlocking a sealed path to a constellation outside our own galaxy. But is this door holding something out, or keeping something in?
Sensors are Picking up… That Can’t be Right: Encounter dozens of new anomalies and events for your intrepid scientists to observe and analyze, and a galaxy of wonders for them to discover.
Brave New Worlds: Plot unexplored unique solar systems, each with their own story to tell. Gain technology, resources, and valuable worlds to colonize.
There’s Always a Bigger Fish: Come face to face with a number of unique gargantuan creatures that exist and thrive in the vacuum of space. But approach with caution, because whether gentle giants or something more sinister, these legendary behemoths have existed long before you and will do what it takes to survive long after.
I like the leviathans, so more is good. I wonder how this constellation will be represented on the map though.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 23, 2018, 09:48:01 am
Post by: Teneb on April 23, 2018, 09:52:29 am
wow. haven't even finished fixing the last dlc, announced the next one alreadyThey fixed the last dlc, it's just that they fucked things up in the more recent patches which is just plain embarassing at this point.
Post by: umiman on April 23, 2018, 10:02:51 am
---------
I'm playing a modded game where every single faction is some kind of human. There's 13 of them. Sadly while the game can track the same species for a race for like 2 - 3 factions for some reason it can't track it for 13 so it splits it into different species even if they're the same, but 2 - 3 will be considered the same species.
Anyway, I set it so their ethics are all about the unrest and deviation. What happens is that every faction constantly has rebellions and changes their ethos nonstop. Thus it becomes a game of CK2 in space.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 23, 2018, 11:05:32 am
A story-pack expansion has been announced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAH6LBzbpJo)/me likes space cows for their haunting moos
Post by: Il Palazzo on April 23, 2018, 11:09:41 am
In space, nobody cow hear you moo.A story-pack expansion has been announced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAH6LBzbpJo)/me likes space cows for their haunting moos
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 23, 2018, 11:28:16 am
wow. haven't even finished fixing the last dlc, announced the next one alreadyThey fixed the last dlc, it's just that they fucked things up in the more recent patches which is just plain embarassing at this point.
tomato tomato
Post by: Cruxador on April 23, 2018, 12:02:17 pm
I mean, they could have more, but this is how they chose to debut the DLC. And they called it Story Pack, which apparently is there term for something that doesn't actually alter mechanics but just does events and stuff - which is good, I guess, because it means their mechanics team can maybe work on actually fixing the game meanwhile.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on April 23, 2018, 12:23:54 pm
their mechanics team can maybe work on actually fixing the game meanwhile.Do ho ho ho
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 23, 2018, 12:31:42 pm
Behind Closed Doors: Discover hidden traces of an ancient gateway network unlocking a sealed path to a constellation outside our own galaxy. But is this door holding something out, or keeping something in?
Obviously that space-door is keeping me in here and also keeping me out of there. You can't trick me with your semantics, now fire up the world smashers. We shall greet the neighbors.
Post by: Baffler on April 23, 2018, 03:32:15 pm
I'm looking forward to it, if only because it will give more stuff for modders to work with.
---------
I'm playing a modded game where every single faction is some kind of human. There's 13 of them. Sadly while the game can track the same species for a race for like 2 - 3 factions for some reason it can't track it for 13 so it splits it into different species even if they're the same, but 2 - 3 will be considered the same species.
Anyway, I set it so their ethics are all about the unrest and deviation. What happens is that every faction constantly has rebellions and changes their ethos nonstop. Thus it becomes a game of CK2 in space.
I did this too, although I did it with Fermi Paradox and let myself explode organically, and I didn't have that problem. Did the game start with all those factions separate?
Anyway I almost wish it had happened in my game. Space racism would've really greased some wheels to keep the galaxy interesting. As-is they rebelled but always ended up drifting to fanatic egalitarian / pacifist, having peaceful relations with everyone forever, and finally federating. Still a good story I guess, but not the one I was expecting, and probably not as fun to play through either.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 23, 2018, 03:43:48 pm
Quote
Behind Closed Doors: Discover hidden traces of an ancient gateway network unlocking a sealed path to a constellation outside our own galaxy. But is this door holding something out, or keeping something in?
Sensors are Picking up That Cant be Right: Encounter dozens of new anomalies and events for your intrepid scientists to observe and analyze, and a galaxy of wonders for them to discover.
Brave New Worlds: Plot unexplored unique solar systems, each with their own story to tell. Gain technology, resources, and valuable worlds to colonize.
Theres Always a Bigger Fish: Come face to face with a number of unique gargantuan creatures that exist and thrive in the vacuum of space. But approach with caution, because whether gentle giants or something more sinister, these legendary behemoths have existed long before you and will do what it takes to survive long after.
I'm moderately excited for the story pack. Stuff like the hidden constellation and unique solar systems are pretty cool already, but I've always felt that the game desperately needed more anomalies. Especially now that with the latest devlog they've said that anomalies are no longer going to be repeatable.
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 23, 2018, 03:57:35 pm
wow. haven't even finished fixing the last dlc, announced the next one alreadyThe people who generate content aren't the same people who fix bugs? Unless you expect writers and artists to go coding. Story packs rarely require new mechanics, they're mostly new events and art assets.
Post by: Mephansteras on April 23, 2018, 04:10:58 pm
wow. haven't even finished fixing the last dlc, announced the next one alreadyThe people who generate content aren't the same people who fix bugs? Unless you expect writers and artists to go coding. Story packs rarely require new mechanics, they're mostly new events and art assets.
Agreed. It makes a lot of sense to do a story pack expansion after a major mechanic change expansion for this exact reason. Give the coders time to work on bugs while still having the rest of the teams work on a project.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 23, 2018, 05:54:15 pm
wow. haven't even finished fixing the last dlc, announced the next one alreadyThe people who generate content aren't the same people who fix bugs? Unless you expect writers and artists to go coding. Story packs rarely require new mechanics, they're mostly new events and art assets.
artists sure, but the story pack is being accompanied by a complete rewrite of anomalies as a mechanic, so it's not as clear cut for the guys who do nothing but write events and scripts.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 23, 2018, 06:04:54 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on April 23, 2018, 06:12:07 pm
I'm not sure on exactly how anomaly stuff is coded in Stellaris, but in most games this sort of thing is done using scripting. So you'd have a team that does content generation that includes people who know how to script things but aren't full-on programmers. This sort of thing is quite common in games that have level designers, for example. The level design team is very different from the game engine team.
Granted, Stellaris could work quite differently as a company than the Game company I worked at or the ones I've had friends work for. But that division of labor is at least very common.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on April 23, 2018, 06:13:15 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 23, 2018, 06:17:12 pm
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-111-anomaly-rework-expanded-exploration.1090092/
those changes will be released for everyone; the story pack will just have the extra events and space monsters and stuff in them
Post by: Mephansteras on April 23, 2018, 06:29:54 pm
Post by: umiman on April 23, 2018, 06:32:58 pm
Fermi Paradox?I'm looking forward to it, if only because it will give more stuff for modders to work with.
---------
I'm playing a modded game where every single faction is some kind of human. There's 13 of them. Sadly while the game can track the same species for a race for like 2 - 3 factions for some reason it can't track it for 13 so it splits it into different species even if they're the same, but 2 - 3 will be considered the same species.
Anyway, I set it so their ethics are all about the unrest and deviation. What happens is that every faction constantly has rebellions and changes their ethos nonstop. Thus it becomes a game of CK2 in space.
I did this too, although I did it with Fermi Paradox and let myself explode organically, and I didn't have that problem. Did the game start with all those factions separate?
Anyway I almost wish it had happened in my game. Space racism would've really greased some wheels to keep the galaxy interesting. As-is they rebelled but always ended up drifting to fanatic egalitarian / pacifist, having peaceful relations with everyone forever, and finally federating. Still a good story I guess, but not the one I was expecting, and probably not as fun to play through either.
----
My all human game has had an interesting twist. One of the empires got eaten from the inside by a robot uprising. I'm not sure if this is in vanilla, but this uprising was of assimilators so they converted all their host humans into the Borg. After they finished eating up their host, they went and declared war on this giant-huge-ass federation created by about 60% of the other human empires.
I thought they'd be smooshed instantly because those guys are pretty frigging big, but I think because the federation was fighting against 6 rebellions on the go (goddamn I love the unrest mods) it can't actually defend against them properly. Though the member states is doing its best to stem the tide.
It's particularly great because the gand majority of the Assimilator's forces are actual cyborg humans. The robots are a tiny miniscule portion of their population. So it's just humans vs robot humans.
I'm thinking whether to actually step in and save them. On one hand it's quite fun to watch. On the other if I wait too long, all the humans will be gone. And we'll be left with humans.
Post by: Telgin on April 23, 2018, 06:37:17 pm
I think I agree with the changes to anomalies too. I've definitely been afraid to try to research some because my scientist was too low level, only to leave it for later. 25 game years later when someone was good enough, I had to send them from across known space to get to it, only to have them fail the project.
Unrelated, but now that I got my modded species portraits working (decided to give up on the weird format Stellaris uses and just switched to TGAs), I've actually been playing the game some for real for the first time. I can't remember the last time I was this anxious to have opportunities to play a game when at work or otherwise indisposed.
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 23, 2018, 06:39:56 pm
Post by: Teneb on April 23, 2018, 06:50:44 pm
Fermi Paradox?Behold! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox)
Post by: Culise on April 23, 2018, 07:46:49 pm
Indeed, though given the context, they likely meant the mod of the same name (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1293195662&searchtext=Fermi).Fermi Paradox?Behold! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 23, 2018, 08:02:19 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on April 23, 2018, 10:19:54 pm
Post by: Sartain on April 24, 2018, 03:56:31 am
It'd be cool to have a civic like "Evacuee Civilization," where you start with just a colony ship plus a slightly better fleet than normal -- and your starting system is crap. In return, your technology starts much higher to compensate your slow start, and your first colony gets some bonus like "last hope," canceling out the initial costs.
Suggest it on the game forums
Post by: Cruxador on April 24, 2018, 10:32:31 am
Post by: Teneb on April 24, 2018, 10:49:42 am
It would be cool, but I don't think it's actually possible for them to do from a technical perspective. Considering that even their Mongols have home worlds, I'm pretty sure that the game requires a nation to always have a planet for technical reasons.
It would be cool, but I don't think it's actually possible for them to do from a technical perspective. Considering that even their Mongols have home worlds, I'm pretty sure that the game requires a nation to always have a planet for technical reasons.Not quite. The space nomads are very much an exception, as are the crisis empires.
Post by: PTTG?? on April 24, 2018, 10:56:31 am
Post by: umiman on April 24, 2018, 02:53:13 pm
It would be cool, but I don't think it's actually possible for them to do from a technical perspective. Considering that even their Mongols have home worlds, I'm pretty sure that the game requires a nation to always have a planet for technical reasons.One of my traits mods has starts where you start without a planet. It can totally be done.
You can start on a habitat, start as a colony ship, start as a lost Fallen Empire colony, start as a colony with a working Dyson Sphere and disabled gateway but no hyperlanes out of the system, etc. etc. etc.
Hell, there's even tech I can research that will obliterate all my planets and give me a single colony ship. I'm not sure when I'll ever press that button but it is tempting.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on April 24, 2018, 03:57:48 pm
It would be cool, but I don't think it's actually possible for them to do from a technical perspective. Considering that even their Mongols have home worlds, I'm pretty sure that the game requires a nation to always have a planet for technical reasons.One of my traits mods has starts where you start without a planet. It can totally be done.
You can start on a habitat, start as a colony ship, start as a lost Fallen Empire colony, start as a colony with a working Dyson Sphere and disabled gateway but no hyperlanes out of the system, etc. etc. etc.
Hell, there's even tech I can research that will obliterate all my planets and give me a single colony ship. I'm not sure when I'll ever press that button but it is tempting.
Fun one to mess with: combine the start as a habitat in space with the start that gives you a dyson sphere. You can get mineral production up really high by spamming the size 6 habitats around your starting system with the pool the dyson start gives you, then when you exit the system, you can spam those habitats along with gateways like crazy. Will admitedly have very limited expansion space left, admitedly, but your economy can easily be strong enough to act like a mini-crisis out of nowhere.
Post by: umiman on April 24, 2018, 04:07:44 pm
That sounds pretty good actually. I might do that since one planet games are super boring.It would be cool, but I don't think it's actually possible for them to do from a technical perspective. Considering that even their Mongols have home worlds, I'm pretty sure that the game requires a nation to always have a planet for technical reasons.One of my traits mods has starts where you start without a planet. It can totally be done.
You can start on a habitat, start as a colony ship, start as a lost Fallen Empire colony, start as a colony with a working Dyson Sphere and disabled gateway but no hyperlanes out of the system, etc. etc. etc.
Hell, there's even tech I can research that will obliterate all my planets and give me a single colony ship. I'm not sure when I'll ever press that button but it is tempting.
Fun one to mess with: combine the start as a habitat in space with the start that gives you a dyson sphere. You can get mineral production up really high by spamming the size 6 habitats around your starting system with the pool the dyson start gives you, then when you exit the system, you can spam those habitats along with gateways like crazy. Will admitedly have very limited expansion space left, admitedly, but your economy can easily be strong enough to act like a mini-crisis out of nowhere.
I tried letting the AI play a habitat start but it didn't know how to play and never built any other habitats.
Post by: BurnedToast on April 29, 2018, 07:57:12 pm
Either we need a reliable way to get more or it needs to be used for less things. Mid-late game it becomes the only resource that really matters, I'm capped out on minerals and energy constantly and my only limitation is influence. It's required for almost everything, and there's really not a whole lot you can do to get more of it.
It's really made the game a far more boring, tedious slog than 1.x ever was. I'm sitting here on fast-forward doing nothing most of the time just waiting for influence to collect enough that I can build a few outposts, or make some claims on an enemy system, or build some more habitats, or... anything, really.
I get that they wanted to slow the game down which is fine, but they forgot to add something else to do while you wait.
Post by: Mephansteras on April 29, 2018, 08:18:05 pm
Post by: umiman on April 29, 2018, 09:18:14 pm
I think that depends a lot on your particular empire. I've had games where influence grew faster than minerals/energy for me as far as how much I used vs needed.Yeah. I played an authoritarian empire making gabillion tonnes of influence each second. I couldn't even use it fast enough.
Post by: BurnedToast on April 29, 2018, 09:48:46 pm
I think that depends a lot on your particular empire. I've had games where influence grew faster than minerals/energy for me as far as how much I used vs needed.Yeah. I played an authoritarian empire making gabillion tonnes of influence each second. I couldn't even use it fast enough.
How much exactly is a "gabillion tonnes"?
I can't imagine getting more than +7 or so, even with fanatic authoritarian. You've got
+1 base
+2 planetary unification
+3 max from factions (I think? they changed living state chain and wiki is outdated)
+1 fanatic authoritarian
+0.5 per rival
which is ~7 - realistically you won't get the full faction bonus, but rivalries will make it up.
That's ~10 months per outpost, and ~50% - ~150% of that (depending on a lot of factors..) per enemy system claimed. I consider that to be, well, really damn slow... and that's also assuming you never want to do anything else with it like build megastructures, or change civics, or have any diplomatic agreements, or integrate a vassal, or....
Or am I missing some big source of influence income?
side note - I can't actually rival anyone for influence because everyone bordering me is "pathetic", but I can't gobble them up to get them out of the way because the new mechanics ::)
Post by: Draignean on April 29, 2018, 10:26:41 pm
I think that depends a lot on your particular empire. I've had games where influence grew faster than minerals/energy for me as far as how much I used vs needed.Yeah. I played an authoritarian empire making gabillion tonnes of influence each second. I couldn't even use it fast enough.
How much exactly is a "gabillion tonnes"?
I can't imagine getting more than +7 or so, even with fanatic authoritarian. You've got
+1 base
+2 planetary unification
+3 max from factions (I think? they changed living state chain and wiki is outdated)
+1 fanatic authoritarian
+0.5 per rival
which is ~7 - realistically you won't get the full faction bonus, but rivalries will make it up.
That's ~10 months per outpost, and ~50% - ~150% of that (depending on a lot of factors..) per enemy system claimed. I consider that to be, well, really damn slow... and that's also assuming you never want to do anything else with it like build megastructures, or change civics, or have any diplomatic agreements, or integrate a vassal, or....
Or am I missing some big source of influence income?
side note - I can't actually rival anyone for influence because everyone bordering me is "pathetic", but I can't gobble them up to get them out of the way because the new mechanics ::)
I believe there's a planet unique structure that generates +1 influence, right?
Post by: Telgin on April 30, 2018, 08:52:15 am
I'm just surprised that there doesn't seem to be any way to generate emergency influence. It feels like you should be able to do something like burn energy credits or minerals to either get a lump sum or to at least increase production for a period. Like... propaganda or bribing the populace or something. A cooldown on such an ability, or having it impose penalties to generation afterward would keep you from abusing it, but let you get enough to snatch a key system or lay a claim in an emergency.
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 30, 2018, 09:01:38 am
That said, so long as you keep 1-2 factions happy you can get a good amount. Rival some annoying empire nearby and you get more. I've never had too much trouble with influence.
Post by: BurnedToast on April 30, 2018, 10:46:24 am
I believe there's a planet unique structure that generates +1 influence, right?
You're probably thinking of the autochthon monument that generates unity - the "currency" used to buy traditions. AFAIK there is no building that generates influence.
That would probably be a pretty easy mod. A simple empire policy to burn a few hundred credits for some influence gain.
That said, so long as you keep 1-2 factions happy you can get a good amount. Rival some annoying empire nearby and you get more. I've never had too much trouble with influence.
Are you just not expanding ever? Never warring with your neighbors? Never playing past early game?
I don't mean that to sound confrontational, I'm just having a really hard time figuring out how anyone could not have influence problems when it costs 10+ months of influence gain per system on average to expand.
Even on max fast forward that's a lot of waiting around for something to happen.
Post by: Draignean on April 30, 2018, 10:47:50 am
I believe there's a planet unique structure that generates +1 influence, right?
You're probably thinking of the autochthon monument that generates unity - the "currency" used to buy traditions. AFAIK there is no building that generates influence.
Ah no, it was a mod added Governor's mansion. Carry on.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 05, 2018, 11:28:58 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 05, 2018, 01:44:07 pm
The truces between wars give me plenty of time to make new claims on the enemy. Perhaps you're claiming too much each war?That would probably be a pretty easy mod. A simple empire policy to burn a few hundred credits for some influence gain.
That said, so long as you keep 1-2 factions happy you can get a good amount. Rival some annoying empire nearby and you get more. I've never had too much trouble with influence.
Are you just not expanding ever? Never warring with your neighbors? Never playing past early game?
I don't mean that to sound confrontational, I'm just having a really hard time figuring out how anyone could not have influence problems when it costs 10+ months of influence gain per system on average to expand.
Even on max fast forward that's a lot of waiting around for something to happen.
Post by: The Scout on May 05, 2018, 03:42:53 pm
Post by: umiman on May 05, 2018, 04:44:24 pm
Ok, so I picked the psionic weapon as my choice of planetkiller... amd NOW I've found that it's not a psychic dominator at all, it just makes people more spiritual. Can I salvage this somehow and get some other PK weapon?I believe you can research the other ones.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on May 05, 2018, 08:26:49 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 05, 2018, 09:56:59 pm
I guess influence might be more of a bottleneck if you play with a less densely populated galaxy so youre constantly building outposts, rather than the early scramble to stake territory and take chokepoints before the borders solidifyThat might be actually. I play with empire populations maxxed out so I don't actually need to expand for long before running into other empires.
Post by: BurnedToast on May 05, 2018, 10:58:01 pm
The truces between wars give me plenty of time to make new claims on the enemy. Perhaps you're claiming too much each war?
My current game (that I've given up in frustration) I've conquered literally 100% of the enemy's empire. I own every planet, every outpost, everything - he has been effectively eliminated from the game completely and I don't think my war attrition is even counting down anymore (or if it is, it's very slow). In addition to that I've also ~50% dominated the ally he invited to the war, and the only thing that stopped me was boredom (his fleets have been long since smashed).
Despite that, I've managed to set claims on less than 25% of his systems.
So by paradox's standards I'm trying to "claim too much" I suppose, but really? He's so utterly and completely beaten he is never, ever coming back in any way. How does forcing him to stay in the game keep it interesting, and how is making me beat him up over and over every 10 years fun?
I guess influence might be more of a bottleneck if you play with a less densely populated galaxy so youre constantly building outposts, rather than the early scramble to stake territory and take chokepoints before the borders solidify
I'm playing 100% standard settings for large spiral galaxy on "commodore" difficulty. The AIs all just gave up and stopped expanding at some point (probably because it wastes all it's influence claiming MY systems that it will never have a chance to capture) so there's tons and tons of open space to grab.
Base game I think I got outpost costs down to like ~20. Only really became a problem when I went to war and had to make claims, since I had to stop making outposts during that time.
Pretty sure you need (fanatic) xenophobe or one of the "total war" civs to get it this low. Without those, you can stack reach for the stars (-10%) and interstellar dominion (ascension perk, -20%) to reduce the cost to 52.5 and that's it, there are no other reductions.
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 05, 2018, 11:55:00 pm
Post by: Teneb on May 11, 2018, 02:33:28 pm
-Space Creature research is being remade. Now you can either choose to hunt them, getting a damage buff against them, or study them, resulting in stuff like the current system, or, in a few cases, try to tame/co-exist with them, resulting in components and such. Pet space amoebas when?
-All strategic resources will be visible from the start, but most will require tech to be exploited. This is nice.
-A mid-game tech has been added which allows science ships to use... the old warp drives. Yup. You need to have revealed the target system through sensor range at some point, and it won't work with special stuff like the upcoming L-Cluster.
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 11, 2018, 03:16:22 pm
I kinda like that mechanics, actually.The truces between wars give me plenty of time to make new claims on the enemy. Perhaps you're claiming too much each war?
My current game (that I've given up in frustration) I've conquered literally 100% of the enemy's empire. I own every planet, every outpost, everything - he has been effectively eliminated from the game completely and I don't think my war attrition is even counting down anymore (or if it is, it's very slow). In addition to that I've also ~50% dominated the ally he invited to the war, and the only thing that stopped me was boredom (his fleets have been long since smashed).
Despite that, I've managed to set claims on less than 25% of his systems.
So by paradox's standards I'm trying to "claim too much" I suppose, but really? He's so utterly and completely beaten he is never, ever coming back in any way. How does forcing him to stay in the game keep it interesting, and how is making me beat him up over and over every 10 years fun?
Conceptually, it makes you feel more like you're leading an empire of many citizens, who have something to say about what they deem ok for the government to do (that's why you spend 'influence' influencing your citizens). Same as you can't wage war against just anybody you want in CKII.
If I want to play a game without such hurdles, I pick a devouring swarm race.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on May 11, 2018, 04:40:46 pm
There was a recent dev diary with some interesting stuff (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-114-space-creatures-strategic-resources-and-experimental-subspace-navigation.1096931/). I am not going to copy the whole thing over, but highlights are:
-Space Creature research is being remade. Now you can either choose to hunt them, getting a damage buff against them, or study them, resulting in stuff like the current system, or, in a few cases, try to tame/co-exist with them, resulting in components and such. Pet space amoebas when?
-All strategic resources will be visible from the start, but most will require tech to be exploited. This is nice.
-A mid-game tech has been added which allows science ships to use... the old warp drives. Yup. You need to have revealed the target system through sensor range at some point, and it won't work with special stuff like the upcoming L-Cluster.
I wonder if that new jump tech will have some interesting consequences associated with it. After all, you can't expect everything to remain nice and neat if you are going down unstable routes.
Post by: Egan_BW on May 11, 2018, 06:43:43 pm
Post by: CaptainArchmage on May 11, 2018, 07:04:46 pm
I guess influence might be more of a bottleneck if you play with a less densely populated galaxy so youre constantly building outposts, rather than the early scramble to stake territory and take chokepoints before the borders solidifyThat might be actually. I play with empire populations maxxed out so I don't actually need to expand for long before running into other empires.
Influence does limit your expansion, it represents political and diplomatic capital. I'm getting about +3 in my Boatmurdered 2200 playthrough. There used to be techs increasing it but those have been switched over to providing unity, which is like a different kind of civics-building resource. It's somewhat more desirable than having to spend influence to colonize planets though.
Influence will be a problem on big galaxies, and I play on 1000-star ones. The trouble is influence does not scale with galaxy size, so a "big" empire in a small galaxy will have an easier time filling up space than a "big" empire in a full size one. The further you expand, the more systems you have to claim (with outposts) to expand your radius of influence (systems to claim squares with distance). Any conventional empire will slow down expansion of its bubble because of this, either spending influence on outposts or claims.
I haven't gotten a hold of how the AI scales in terms of results (not on the scaling difficulty, talking Ensign-Grand Admiral ones) so I'm playing it safe (maxed out empires, habitable planets, primitives, etc.), I might have to edit the difficulty upwards though (as a rule of thumb, AI are almost always given a resource and power bonus to scale difficulty but I do not know if this expands to influence). I'd played a game back in 1.8 and while the colony system was hell (influence for colonization, maaaan) the influence blobbing was easier... had covered a decent part of the galaxy by 2300-2320 (with hyperdrives, other empires had different FTL methods though). If you had democratic government, you also got influence from fulfilling mandates (lots of it, every ten years or less), but that's been changed to unity. I did manage to get a lot of influence uplifting pre-sentients though and that's how I got by - 500 influence per uplift gave enough to colonize about five planets. If it still gives influence in 2.0 that would be great, allow about 6-60+ systems to be outposted/uplift depending on what the cost reduction you have is.
There was a recent dev diary with some interesting stuff (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-114-space-creatures-strategic-resources-and-experimental-subspace-navigation.1096931/). I am not going to copy the whole thing over, but highlights are:
-Space Creature research is being remade. Now you can either choose to hunt them, getting a damage buff against them, or study them, resulting in stuff like the current system, or, in a few cases, try to tame/co-exist with them, resulting in components and such. Pet space amoebas when?
-All strategic resources will be visible from the start, but most will require tech to be exploited. This is nice.
-A mid-game tech has been added which allows science ships to use... the old warp drives. Yup. You need to have revealed the target system through sensor range at some point, and it won't work with special stuff like the upcoming L-Cluster.
Unlike warp drives, there isn't a range limit and you can "go anywhere" as long as it is to a system there's some intel on (have visited before). If you have intel on a spot on the other side of a 1000 star galaxy, you can go there in one jump without interception or worrying about space borders. It's also only for science ships.
Ok, so I picked the psionic weapon as my choice of planetkiller... amd NOW I've found that it's not a psychic dominator at all, it just makes people more spiritual. Can I salvage this somehow and get some other PK weapon?
You can apparently refit the planetkiller, if you have the tech for it. You might have to wait for it to show up in a research tree though.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on May 11, 2018, 07:49:49 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on May 11, 2018, 08:23:31 pm
Post by: Dorsidwarf on May 11, 2018, 08:32:49 pm
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on May 11, 2018, 08:42:06 pm
I have to question how it can be justified in-universe that you can fit a science ship with magical FTL drives that are strictly better than any other option but are physically incapable of putting them on warships.
Might be all the power that would otherwise go to weapons is going to a monstrous sensor bank required combined with increasing size making it exponentially harder. Science ships are the only ones with the power to sensor to mass ratio possible to pull it off.
Post by: Egan_BW on May 11, 2018, 08:48:09 pm
Post by: Draignean on May 11, 2018, 08:56:39 pm
Then stick some guns to your science ship design, and bam, you've got a weak but mobile warship.
It would be kind of nice if they allowed it to be fitted onto warships with special hull selection and/or a massive hit to power. That way if you want your fleet of harassers, you know they're going to be weaker than any other ship of the same class.
Post by: CaptainArchmage on May 11, 2018, 09:13:24 pm
Then stick some guns to your science ship design, and bam, you've got a weak but mobile warship.
It requires a specific technology to do, and is similar to the "emergency FTL jump" option that causes the fleet to go missing for a few months and appear at one of your planets, with a good chance several ships will be lost.
The science ships are pretty weak and even if they were armed, they would not last long.
Post by: PTTG?? on May 11, 2018, 11:46:57 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on May 11, 2018, 11:58:19 pm
Post by: umiman on May 12, 2018, 12:48:44 am
Post by: Mephansteras on May 12, 2018, 01:17:27 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 13, 2018, 09:21:42 am
All in all the last military campaign was rather pyrrhic. I did win the war and gain territory, but that stretched my fleet even further
Post by: Mephansteras on May 13, 2018, 10:41:01 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 13, 2018, 10:46:50 am
And now you are Space Rome.
....well...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Mephansteras on May 13, 2018, 10:50:15 am
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 13, 2018, 11:04:36 am
Post by: umiman on May 13, 2018, 12:22:36 pm
Post by: Cruxador on May 13, 2018, 03:00:48 pm
I kind of have a problem. My empire has become too large to successfully defend. I've kind of beaten my immediate neighbours, militarily speaking I'm stronger than them... but they have doomstacks of 80K while my sector fleets are at 40-50. If I gathered two or more sector fleets I'd wipe the floor with their doomstack. But if I do that then I'm leaving the backdoor of my empire open to raiding by smaller stacks There is not a chance in hell I can move my fleets around fast enough to prevent damage.Build defensive stations.
All in all the last military campaign was rather pyrrhic. I did win the war and gain territory, but that stretched my fleet even further
Post by: Telgin on May 13, 2018, 04:55:57 pm
Then Skynet woke up.
I suddenly found myself with two 90K fleets and a 200K fleet in the middle of my empire, and I have three main fleets of about 20K power each in distant parts of my empire. I wasn't able to save the planet they spawned near. :(
As of right now, I've managed to destroy the roaming fleets by combining everything I had on top of the federation fleet and multiple allied fleets joining me. I was actually a little shocked that the other AI empires actually sent ships to help.
But now I've got nooooo idea what to do about that 200K doomstack protecting the purification hub. My fleet is already over cap and I'm losing energy credits. I can build a new battleship about once every 4 months, so trying to build up enough to fight it is going to take ages upon ages, by which time they're going to get reinforcements and probably eat most of the rest of the galaxy...
Post by: PTTG?? on May 13, 2018, 07:15:05 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 13, 2018, 07:51:03 pm
Is this normal? Are missiles so overpowered? I've certainly been rolling over admiral-difficulty AI with zero sweat.
Post by: umiman on May 13, 2018, 10:13:43 pm
I have best tech (+fallen empire, but no late-tech multipliers) torpedo boats, where 150 of them gives me 100k. I have a vague recollection that refitting them to comparable tier guns would halve their power.Torpedo boats are basically OP in vanilla. There's no downside as they're cheap, really powerful, have really high evasion, and ignore most defenses.
Is this normal? Are missiles so overpowered? I've certainly been rolling over admiral-difficulty AI with zero sweat.
New Ship Classes has counters to it, but the AI doesn't really use them so it's still OP.
Post by: BurnedToast on May 13, 2018, 10:30:23 pm
I have best tech (+fallen empire, but no late-tech multipliers) torpedo boats, where 150 of them gives me 100k. I have a vague recollection that refitting them to comparable tier guns would halve their power.
Is this normal? Are missiles so overpowered? I've certainly been rolling over admiral-difficulty AI with zero sweat.
Not sure about missiles, but torpedoes are amazing and yeah, probably OP.
Torpedo corvette monofleet (autocannon in the s slot) is probably the strongest + most cost effective fleet right now simply because it mounts the most torpedoes per fleet point. It helps that they are also the fastest fleet too so they can catch (or escape) anything.
Energy torpedoes are pretty good too - neutron launcher battleships would probably be comparable to corvette monofleets if they were not so damn slow.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 14, 2018, 01:35:21 am
They did crush everything in early and mid game though
Also: I did have defensive ststions. Several citadels even. But its good to keep chaff away, not doomstacks. And even two doomstacks xan ruin me
I've pretty much decided the anacreon sector is lost. I'm tearing down the space bases there to fortify my core empire further, and falling back to Barnard's star chokepoint while I rebuild my navy
Post by: Dorsidwarf on May 14, 2018, 06:57:20 am
I can tell you that the AI starts spamming PD once avaiable if you use lots of torpedos. I've felt a huge decrease in my fleet's effectiveness.
They did crush everything in early and mid game though
Also: I did have defensive ststions. Several citadels even. But its good to keep chaff away, not doomstacks. And even two doomstacks xan ruin me
I've pretty much decided the anacreon sector is lost. I'm tearing down the space bases there to fortify my core empire further, and falling back to Barnard's star chokepoint while I rebuild my navy
If you have the resources, build a gateway from one frontline to the other. That way you can bring your fleets to bear much more rapidly, giving you a major edge against opportunists!
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 14, 2018, 10:05:10 am
Post by: umiman on May 14, 2018, 10:48:16 am
I donŽt think I have the technology :(You'll have the tech in like an hour.
Post by: BurnedToast on May 14, 2018, 11:53:59 am
I can tell you that the AI starts spamming PD once avaiable if you use lots of torpedos. I've felt a huge decrease in my fleet's effectiveness.
They did crush everything in early and mid game though
Also: I did have defensive ststions. Several citadels even. But its good to keep chaff away, not doomstacks. And even two doomstacks xan ruin me
I've pretty much decided the anacreon sector is lost. I'm tearing down the space bases there to fortify my core empire further, and falling back to Barnard's star chokepoint while I rebuild my navy
PD is not that good against torpedoes in 2.0
First because torpedo health got buffed. Assuming 100% hitrate, it takes a guardian PD (0.62 dps) almost one minute(!) to kill a devastator torpedo (30 hp). Obviously they won't be firing 1:1, but you can see that you need a lot of PD to counter even a modest amount of torpedoes. It's even worse for the PD too because it's not 100% accurate, it actually only has 75% accuracy so real dps is more like 0.47.
Second, because corvette torpedoes (after the first volley) are fired from point-blank range the PD has almost zero time to fire making it even less effective.
So if the AI is spamming PD, that's actually good for you even if you are relying heavily on torpedoes.
Post by: Telgin on May 14, 2018, 12:08:38 pm
Or can PD damage and destroy ships too? The Contingency's weapons are so powerful I'm willing to believe their PD is capable of destroying my corvettes.
Post by: Teneb on May 14, 2018, 12:15:26 pm
Or can PD damage and destroy ships too? The Contingency's weapons are so powerful I'm willing to believe their PD is capable of destroying my corvettes.Pretty sure they can attack ships, but they deal very little damage compared to everything else.
Post by: umiman on May 14, 2018, 12:17:32 pm
Yeah, usually something dumb like 14 damage. Basically PD is worthless right now. I wouldn't even bother.Or can PD damage and destroy ships too? The Contingency's weapons are so powerful I'm willing to believe their PD is capable of destroying my corvettes.Pretty sure they can attack ships, but they deal very little damage compared to everything else.
Some of the mods have absurd PD but in vanilla they're trash.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 14, 2018, 05:06:31 pm
I can tell you that the AI starts spamming PD once avaiable if you use lots of torpedos. I've felt a huge decrease in my fleet's effectiveness.
They did crush everything in early and mid game though
Also: I did have defensive ststions. Several citadels even. But its good to keep chaff away, not doomstacks. And even two doomstacks xan ruin me
I've pretty much decided the anacreon sector is lost. I'm tearing down the space bases there to fortify my core empire further, and falling back to Barnard's star chokepoint while I rebuild my navy
PD is not that good against torpedoes in 2.0
First because torpedo health got buffed. Assuming 100% hitrate, it takes a guardian PD (0.62 dps) almost one minute(!) to kill a devastator torpedo (30 hp). Obviously they won't be firing 1:1, but you can see that you need a lot of PD to counter even a modest amount of torpedoes. It's even worse for the PD too because it's not 100% accurate, it actually only has 75% accuracy so real dps is more like 0.47.
Second, because corvette torpedoes (after the first volley) are fired from point-blank range the PD has almost zero time to fire making it even less effective.
So if the AI is spamming PD, that's actually good for you even if you are relying heavily on torpedoes.
Shit.
This actually saved the day.
I couldnt afford to replace my capital ships so I dropped their numbers and started spamming torpedo frigates.
They utterly crushed the opposition's mainly capital ships fleets.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 15, 2018, 02:25:01 am
dammit they only had to make crusader king in space, they're instead spinning around and around, with corvette spam still the strongest option, governor still unable to govern, features butchered because they couldn't implement them properly (like, most other space game can handle warp just fine), annoying game limit as influence..
this game looks so cool but plays so meh
I keep getting back to the thread to see if the situation improves but I just dumped money in the drain
Post by: Shadowlord on May 15, 2018, 09:11:37 am
It would have been nice to have had actual characters as advisors, running each system, running each colony, etc, all doing stuff and able to be interacted with like in ck2. Instead we got a war weariness system, which, from what I have heard multiple people say, sometimes will never reach 100 even when you have completely dominated the enemy. (I have only personally played an hour or two since 2.0, and lately have been playing star ruler 2 again instead. It has its own flaws, but it isn't buggy as hell or breaking every few months, so)
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 15, 2018, 10:33:42 am
Mostly content. My biggest gripe is still that the game feels too bland and that many of the choices feel unimportant or boring. AI empires still feel mostly like they need one of the special civics to be interesting or noticable and many pop traits just make me shrug in indifference. I guess that this might be a good thing with Stellaris's balance issues but I still can't play more than two games in a row before going 'been there, done that' and moving onto something else for a couple of months.
I can handle a medicore game. Not so much an uninteresting one.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 15, 2018, 10:42:43 am
The most fun I've had with Stellaris was designing a bunch of races and empires and writing up little backstories for them. It's a shame that paradox can't figure out how to test for game breaking bugs or whether features are actually more fun before they go ahead with releasing updates and dlc.
yes that part is on point! I've pages of races, from science obsessed kerbals (which you can basically do 90% without mods) to your standard space xenofobic imperials to terran federations and more exploring all the weird ethics and stuff including hyper aggressive weaklings lizards that basically bluff their way around with diplomacy.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 20, 2018, 07:06:49 pm
(https://i.redd.it/4m6mueb7msy01.png)
look who was right all along
typical wiz, taking all my ideas 6 months after i post them (kidding)
Post by: Rolan7 on May 20, 2018, 07:16:45 pm
Maybe it's just because I've been trying hive-minds for the first time, and would like to ever play authoritarian to the end maybe, but I kinda don't hate this?
Friend did point out that they're massively reinventing the game, at least twice. But, still.
I LOVE the idea of "this demographic is dying off" instead of the bizarre "all pops of this type will suddenly disappear at once IN TEN YEARS.
My complaint about laptop support re: scroll is still valid, BTW, I hope they address that someday.
But it's a worthwhile game, I just picked up synthetic dawn on sale.
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 20, 2018, 07:31:57 pm
edit: fucken grammer, how does it work?
Post by: Rolan7 on May 20, 2018, 07:50:51 pm
But no, it IS, it's supposed to be grand strategy which is evolved a stage from Civ and MoO. MoO3.
And it is, kinda. The sector system works very well, as far as I've seen. It's not perfectly optimal, but it's certainly better than I was lead to expect.
Especially since they removed the influence penalties for adjusting sectors, this really is the MoO3 I wanted. You can micro a few "core sectors", but really you're doing grand strategy with (MoStLy) efficient zoom-in when you care about specific systems.
Post by: umiman on May 20, 2018, 09:00:27 pm
Post by: BurnedToast on May 21, 2018, 12:54:34 am
I'm fine with that. I think the current pop system is stupid anyway. This should at least make managing them less of a chore.
I think the current pop/tile system is an ok idea in theory, but it's too shallow and poorly designed. They need more depth, like more adjacency bonuses, more "special effects" buildings like the mineral processing center or slave processing center, maybe special tiles with tradeoffs (maybe some pretty mountains you can mine for +10 minerals but -10 happiness or w/e), etc. More things to make you think about what you're doing, because right now there's almost zero real choice and it's basically just mindless busywork.
Unfortunately, despite how shallow it is, the AI still can't even handle the current system. So making it even more complicated is problematic - unless they layer on even more cheat bonuses, the AI will just fail even harder than it does right now.
So I'm all for them changing it to something that's less busywork, and that hopefully the AI can handle better.
The one thing I do worry about is it looks like tile bonuses are somehow translated into number of production buildings you can make, i.e. no more "every tile is a mine no matter what" planets. I worry that this will make ice master race (with it's mineral and engineering bonuses) even more powerful, and wet planets (with the trash tier food bonus) even worse off. It's already too big of a power difference for something that should be cosmetic, it would be unfortunate if it got worse.
Post by: Cruxador on May 21, 2018, 12:56:41 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 21, 2018, 05:47:53 am
the current system is lackluster, ... throw it out in favor of something that's lackluster but at least it has some charm to it.This is literally paradox's game development model.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 21, 2018, 07:57:08 am
I worry that this will make ice master race (with it's mineral and engineering bonuses) even more powerful
Scandinavian company, is anyone surprised
but seriously, i'm guessing you'll see planet types significant changed, too.
Post by: Telgin on May 21, 2018, 08:42:07 am
I think the current pop/tile system is an ok idea in theory, but it's too shallow and poorly designed. They need more depth, like more adjacency bonuses, more "special effects" buildings like the mineral processing center or slave processing center, maybe special tiles with tradeoffs (maybe some pretty mountains you can mine for +10 minerals but -10 happiness or w/e), etc. More things to make you think about what you're doing, because right now there's almost zero real choice and it's basically just mindless busywork.
Agreed completely. I was having this very thought last night after setting up my thirtieth or so planet. There's fairly little thought that goes into it, other than deciding if I should skip putting a farm somewhere since I have a stupidly huge amount of food income because a sector governor decided that his sector needed to produce +75 food for some reason. I really wish there was more variety in the buildings too. So, yeah, I like the looks of the change.
Anyway, I finally finished my first game yesterday, which was my second attempt at single player (the first was aborted fairly early on because I screwed some things up in my species mod). It took just over 80 real life hours since I played a lot of it at normal speed and on a kind of slow computer, lasted 315 game years and had an end game crisis that lasted for 99 years by itself.
My biggest takeaway after the crisis ended was that I now understand why people say they don't go for victory in Stellaris. As a pacifist empire, it took me forever to get 40% of the planets in the galaxy, and I literally would have been unable to if the Contingency hadn't opened up a ton of them to me to retake from other empires. That's even including building habitats, since they increase the total number of habitable worlds in the galaxy and thus the number you have to own. That would have made it technically possible, but at 160 influence each, it would have taken another 100 years in game.
I can understand that as pacifists you're probably supposed to join federations and get a federation victory, but what are pacifist xenophobes with inward perfection civics supposed to do? Goad other empires into attacking them so they can take planets in defensive wars? Can you even do that?
Post by: IcyTea31 on May 21, 2018, 08:48:22 am
Post by: Egan_BW on May 21, 2018, 08:57:46 am
Want to take over the galaxy? Play as an empire that wants to take over the galaxy.
Post by: Telgin on May 21, 2018, 09:20:51 am
Maybe it's not a problem that you can't declare victory in any kind of sense? It is just a "A Winner is You!" screen anyway. It would be nice if there was like a cultural or scientific victory condition too, of some kind. I was always leading the galaxy in science, aside from Fallen Empires of course, and ended the game with levels 8-10 in most military repeatables. Then again, I was somewhat surprised at the victory screen telling me that I only beat the next runner up by about 20% in total research, and that was with me dedicating almost everything I could to it.
Post by: Radsoc on May 21, 2018, 09:37:26 am
In Stellaris you can't be sure to win every time, but if there's one thing that the game teaches you, it's patience. You may have a nice place in perfect harmony, tropico style, then suddenly get a crisis and lose a lot of battles, get stripped down to your last few planets and get really annoyed. The trick is to not give up, to continue. Sometimes you might get vassalized, forced to pay tributes, or whatever, but in essence the game mechanics seem to promote Kulikovo/Stalingrad style moments.
Post by: Telgin on May 21, 2018, 09:51:07 am
Then a sterilization hub appeared in one of my systems in 2455, and the fleet and troop transports obliterated the outpost and dropped like 20 synthetic armies on my planet and habitat. It was actually kind of depressing watching the little army health indicators dwindle down, then see the red skull appear on all of my pops on those planets. Guess that's what I get for modding in a cute species to play as.
First attempts to retake the system were wildly unsuccessful. I had about 50K fleet power in total, and my four fleets were wrecked by the one autonomous cluster hanging around. I had 50K minerals stockpiled and plenty of spaceports, so I rebuilt quickly, and with the help of my federation ally I managed to destroy the cluster and retake the system with heavy losses. After that, I learned to use the ship designer to make ships to counter the Contingency, and had to change my entire thinking to focus on warfare instead of keeping my population happy. I ran huge energy deficits in my core sector for that entire century, and only survived because of trade agreements and by draining other sector stockpiles periodically. I had to use the Droning Optimizations edict for the first time to keep a positive mineral balance, and influence was even more scarce than usual, especially since I wanted to take systems that the Contingency had opened up in their wake.
I was actually concerned that I might not win at the last sterilization hub. I guess they get a bonus rate to fleet spawns as you destroy hubs, and they were cranking out fleets fast enough that I could barely maintain a foothold nearby. I spent several game years with four fleets parked near a wormhole so I could build up a big starport to crank out 4 battleships at a time, but sheer attrition destroyed the fleets and that starport... which I had to rebuild. Thankfully, by that time I'd destroyed all of the wandering fleets that had built up in that quarter of the galaxy, and established a foothold that let me win.
I can imagine that the Contingency won't be as fun to play against next time, so hopefully I'll get a different crisis. I wonder how they compare in difficulty, since from what I gather the Contingency is a bit more gimmicky in that they only use energy weapons and are a bit easier to hard counter with shields.
Post by: umiman on May 21, 2018, 09:59:55 am
Post by: Dorsidwarf on May 21, 2018, 10:19:22 am
Contingency is way harder than any of the other crisises.
What if the Swarm arrive on the other side of the galaxy and land face first on a cluster of poorly defended planets, eating tonnes of them and therefore getting firmly entrenched before you have a chance to do anything?
Post by: Draignean on May 21, 2018, 10:21:37 am
Post by: Teneb on May 21, 2018, 10:28:13 am
I still hold Prethoryn as the be-all-end-all of shagnasty crisis threats. However, that could because mods still screw with their balance a wee bit.Of the crises, Prethoryn are actually the easiest of them, even if allowed to grow rampant.
The old AI rebellion used to be the easiest, but it's no longer a crisis.
Post by: Draignean on May 21, 2018, 11:00:08 am
I still hold Prethoryn as the be-all-end-all of shagnasty crisis threats. However, that could because mods still screw with their balance a wee bit.Of the crises, Prethoryn are actually the easiest of them, even if allowed to grow rampant.
The old AI rebellion used to be the easiest, but it's no longer a crisis.
Unless the unbidden got a massive buff, I have difficulty believing that. Unbidden can be wiped clean without a great deal of effort, but I've never had a run against the Prethoryn with any outcome better than half the galaxy getting eaten before the tide was turned, and I've flatly lost most runs against them.
Post by: Mephansteras on May 21, 2018, 11:41:25 am
No mods, though.
Post by: umiman on May 21, 2018, 11:57:55 am
Yeah, but that's also kinda how the Contingency just works by default.Contingency is way harder than any of the other crisises.
What if the Swarm arrive on the other side of the galaxy and land face first on a cluster of poorly defended planets, eating tonnes of them and therefore getting firmly entrenched before you have a chance to do anything?
But though I say the Contingency is the hardest, it's still not particularly difficult. It was way harder back when the command limits were super tiny and the Contingency was like "lol, the rules don't apply to us" but now it's like... meh.
Post by: Teneb on May 21, 2018, 02:22:43 pm
Are you running any mods? Because unless you imediately bum-rush the portals, the Unbidden can and will spiral out of control faster and harder than the Scourge.I still hold Prethoryn as the be-all-end-all of shagnasty crisis threats. However, that could because mods still screw with their balance a wee bit.Of the crises, Prethoryn are actually the easiest of them, even if allowed to grow rampant.
The old AI rebellion used to be the easiest, but it's no longer a crisis.
Unless the unbidden got a massive buff, I have difficulty believing that. Unbidden can be wiped clean without a great deal of effort, but I've never had a run against the Prethoryn with any outcome better than half the galaxy getting eaten before the tide was turned, and I've flatly lost most runs against them.
But regardless of all that, at least now we have a slider to control crisis strength.
Post by: Telgin on May 21, 2018, 02:28:23 pm
Maybe a militarist empire with lots of vassals with fleet levies could have managed it.
Post by: Egan_BW on May 21, 2018, 04:41:02 pm
Personally what I think they should do in terms of game ending conditions is to actually play out the "cycle" implied by the existence of fallen empires. You win if you survive the "end times" or whatever happens as an intact fallen empire. Then you could start a new game+ sort of thing as the fallen remnants of your former empire.
Post by: Radsoc on May 21, 2018, 06:30:25 pm
Quote
Personally what I think they should do in terms of game ending conditions is to actually play out the "cycle" implied by the existence of fallen empires. You win if you survive the "end times" or whatever happens as an intact fallen empire. Then you could start a new game+ sort of thing as the fallen remnants of your former empire.
Good idea, would be a natural solution. Kind of reminds me of how the game Towns handled ruins. Some layers beneath the ground, what's left of the decayed creations of other players could be uncovered.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 21, 2018, 06:34:10 pm
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on May 21, 2018, 06:39:04 pm
Post by: Radsoc on May 22, 2018, 08:38:59 am
Distant Stars has a 20% voucher with code STARS20.
I managed to buy it minutes before the discount was announced (had another one time voucher of 5%), very annoying :P
Post by: Wiles on May 22, 2018, 10:35:54 am
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on May 22, 2018, 11:36:31 am
Post by: umiman on May 22, 2018, 01:04:12 pm
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on May 22, 2018, 07:47:49 pm
Server Name: 2.1 Fuckaround
Server ID: 90114726242965509
No password.
Post by: Mephansteras on May 22, 2018, 09:14:19 pm
If not...well, I guess that gives me a different goal.
Post by: umiman on May 22, 2018, 11:17:52 pm
Started a new game to see the new stuff, though not specifically hunting for the out of galaxy system. Found the gateway to it, but it is closer to another empire than my own, so we'll have to see if I can get to it before them.Yeah, I haven't had a lot of luck getting it either.
If not...well, I guess that gives me a different goal.
Post by: StagnantSoul on May 22, 2018, 11:20:49 pm
Post by: umiman on May 23, 2018, 12:19:27 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
There are multiple things that can happen for the L-gate by the way.
Also the achievement for opening an L-gate is bugged.
Post by: Radsoc on May 23, 2018, 07:56:29 pm
Open gate spoiler + initial events:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: umiman on May 23, 2018, 11:04:03 pm
First time playing without AI-bonuses, and it's really a big pushover. However, it also forces you to take care of events yourself more or less.
Open gate spoiler + initial events:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: StagnantSoul on May 24, 2018, 03:07:48 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Damiac on May 24, 2018, 11:32:57 am
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 24, 2018, 11:35:42 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 25, 2018, 06:24:18 am
well well wellIs this real? I've been saying this was the way forward for aeons. Dynamic population system, sexy beanslook who was right all alongSpoiler (click to show/hide)
typical wiz, taking all my ideas 6 months after i post them (kidding)
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 25, 2018, 07:10:06 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 25, 2018, 12:31:35 pm
Wiz's Twitter account includes some grumbling against people's kneejerk reactions to the obvious prototype so... I'm assuming that it's legit but could easily be scrapped at any point. It is only a prototype after all.Why would people backlash such an obvious improvement tho D:
Post by: StagnantSoul on May 25, 2018, 12:39:51 pm
Wiz's Twitter account includes some grumbling against people's kneejerk reactions to the obvious prototype so... I'm assuming that it's legit but could easily be scrapped at any point. It is only a prototype after all.Why would people backlash such an obvious improvement tho D:
Why would anyone want the game to devolve though?
Post by: Rolan7 on May 25, 2018, 12:57:45 pm
After the first ~50 years I only had two core planets, kept neglecting them, and *still* constantly had to resettle pops around every time I won a fight. It sucks and I don't like it... At least right now :P
Also I keep winning before the "end game" starts, oops. Even my very first game as egalitarian xenophiles who became spiritualists, though that was default/ensign difficulty.
This time I'm trying pacifist/xenophile/materialist. It's Commodore like my devouring swarm, but I expect a "normal" race like this to have more trouble (that is to say, any whatsoever).
I'm looking to federation build, like in my first game, but this time I know to "liberate" everyone first. Forming a federation with authoritarian pacifists, as aggressive egalitarians, kinda obviously resulted in them vetoing ever war in my first game. This time I know better heh.
First issue with that plan: Both my neighbors so far are machine empires. That's kinda exciting, this being my first SD game and my people being materialist... and they are pretty friendly... but I hope they're cooperative federation members despite being immune to ethics.
Post by: StagnantSoul on May 25, 2018, 01:15:46 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on May 25, 2018, 01:46:46 pm
I'm not playing at the moment, but thinking about the game, I might want to see about implementing more diplomatic actions a la The Last Federation or something. Bored ideas I just had (these would probably cost influence mainly):
- "Peacebrokering", increasing the war exhaustion of an aggressor. Defender would like this of course.
- "Cultural exchange" treaty which grants society research in both directions, but dramatically increases all ethics exchange (unlike research treaties which cause both sides to be more materialist)
- "Infiltration" action which promotes a chosen ethic on a chosen planet for X years.
- "Coup" wargoal, auto-succeeds if you occupy their capitol, but only replaces the state's governing ethics with those of the capitol.
- "Incite riots", just raises unrest on a planet.
I'm kinda talking out my butt, of course. I'll see how this diplomat-y run goes, since I was stuck playing hive-mind for quite a while.
Post by: Telgin on May 25, 2018, 01:52:53 pm
So, naturally, they immediately start wanting to declare war on their neighbors, who haven't done anything to hurt anyone.
I declined, and they got miffed. They tried to declare war again, which I declined again, which made them more miffed. Repeat about 4 times, at which point I started letting the requests time out instead of declining immediately. For some reason, that stopped them from gaining more negative opinion on me, but maybe I just hit the cap at -200 for declining war.
They did finally stop asking at that point, and their opinion of me was about to turn negative. Could just be a coincidence that they gave up asking then.
After watching a video on the Star Trek mod for Stellaris, I realized that Stellaris doesn't have any equivalent to the intelligence mechanic from Birth of the Federation, where you could sabotage enemy facilities, ships and populations, or spy on them to steal information. Something like that could be pretty cool, although it could also be very annoying in BotF if you weren't massively better at it than the enemy empires and had it focused on internal security. Having stuff blown up every other turn got old really fast if you didn't.
If they were going to keep the tile system, having intelligence structures would at least give a little more variety. Still, I'm not sure more variety is really the solution to it, since it's really just a shallow system right now. I did get quite tired of dealing with it by the end of the game, since I was usually just slapping research facilities down on almost every free tile, interspersed with the odd power plant or mine just to break up the monotony, and building the odd robot pop for the same reason.
Post by: StagnantSoul on May 25, 2018, 01:56:41 pm
Aww, you can join mine! Errr maybe. I hope the problem isn't... mechanical 8)
I'm not playing at the moment, but thinking about the game, I might want to see about implementing more diplomatic actions a la The Last Federation or something. Bored ideas I just had (these would probably cost influence mainly):
"Peacebrokering", increasing the war exhaustion of an aggressor. Defender would like this of course.
"Cultural exchange" treaty which grants society research in both directions, but dramatically increases all ethics exchange (unlike research treaties which cause both sides to be more materialist)
"Infiltration" action which promotes a chosen ethic on a chosen planet for X years.
"Coup" wargoal, auto-succeeds if you occupy their capitol, but only replaces the state's governing ethics with those of the capitol.
"Incite riots", just raises unrest on a planet.
I'm kinda talking out my butt, of course. I'll see how this diplomat-y run goes, since I was stuck playing hive-mind for quite a while.
More diplomatic stuff would be pretty fun, I'd love to be everyone's favourite neighbour while slowly forcing them to think my way with subterfuge.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 25, 2018, 03:11:38 pm
Wiz's Twitter account includes some grumbling against people's kneejerk reactions to the obvious prototype so... I'm assuming that it's legit but could easily be scrapped at any point. It is only a prototype after all.Why would people backlash such an obvious improvement tho D:
The three major complaints seem to be:
- It's cliche, bland, and/or generic.
- It's oversimplifying things.
- It makes individual planets less meaningful and makes the game devolve into a spreadsheet simulator.
As for complaint number 2... Well. Vicky 3 confirmed? (https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/8kkjph/wiz_shows_off_prototype_of_planet_without_tiles/dz8hil3/)
Post by: Rolan7 on May 25, 2018, 09:39:50 pm
But some Googling suggests that that might be natural: They're threatened by a nearby federation of two Spiritualist empires, and apparently the AI does send gifts (even to PCs!) in a bid to win friends. That's some nice, natural gameplay IMHO.
So, I'm somewhat weaker than all 4 (2 machines, two spiritualists) because I've been desperately trying to expand and fight off pirates. And more importantly, I'm materialist. Surely, my best case was to form a federation with the machine empires to resist this random megablob just to our north:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1394682848
(That NNW purple is just fanatically egalitarian militarists who will inevitably get owned by either of us. They get a -50 with me for being an oligarchy, yeesh they have no friends)
Here's the thing...
The fanatic spiritualists offered me association! Wow!
That's pretty great for me, short term, I can keep tamping down pirates and finishing expansion on cordoned-off areas. And then treat them with all fairness.
I'm not sure what that means either. But I'm pretty sure it includes a place for the two machine empires who could have steamrolled me, but didn't.
It likely involves me forcing the federation to accept the robot, the machine, the heretic. Because they mechanically can't tolerate, so this situation is untenable. All must be united, to face the future.
But they can keep their land and lives, of course! I just have to force them to accept -
This game is kinda real sometimes.
/drunkish
Post by: Cruxador on May 26, 2018, 04:17:45 pm
Well, the other thing is that people are feeling burnt by 2.0, where features were cut for the sake of balance but then it was pretty badly broken and in some ways remains so, because while core mechanics were changed, the polish on top of that isn't there.Wiz's Twitter account includes some grumbling against people's kneejerk reactions to the obvious prototype so... I'm assuming that it's legit but could easily be scrapped at any point. It is only a prototype after all.Why would people backlash such an obvious improvement tho D:
The three major complaints seem to be:I don't consider 3 to be a valid complaint unless you never play empires past the early game. Planets don't feel very special or meaningful when your only interaction with them is clicking on the 'upgrade building' button a bunch of times after researching a new tech. 1 can definitely be a problem but Wiz has made it abundantly clear that obvious prototype is a prototype so we'll have to wait and see how it turns out once it's more developed. Buildings are being reworked to fit this new system and the jobs are supposed to be more complicated than just 'minerals, energy, food, research and unity'.
- It's cliche, bland, and/or generic.
- It's oversimplifying things.
- It makes individual planets less meaningful and makes the game devolve into a spreadsheet simulator.
Quote
As for complaint number 2... Well. Vicky 3 confirmed? (https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/8kkjph/wiz_shows_off_prototype_of_planet_without_tiles/dz8hil3/)Vicky 3 is unlikely to be in serious development since it seems that Johan is working pretty directly on Imperator, and Vicky is his baby. I would expect CK3 to come next. Then after those two, Vicky 3, something totally new (perhaps another try at the cold war time period) or even EU5 might be on the table.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 26, 2018, 05:29:01 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on May 26, 2018, 05:32:12 pm
Mid-game and on, you can probably wipe them out without effort, but early game they're credible threats. That way, they feel like a sign of progress, instead of random dudes who inexplicably can field navies the size of an empire out of one asteroid base in the middle of nowhere.
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 26, 2018, 10:26:31 pm
It'd be neat if instead of ONLY PC empires getting pirates, pirates bubble up around the perhiphery of galactic civilization in general. While you're at it, have them "raid" stations instead of destroying them. Make it so that ignoring them (at least for a while) is a reasonable move.yeah mods giving NPC empires pirates was one of the first I installed. I'd love more depth to their behavior but at least they're better now than the original one-and-done early event they were originally.
Mid-game and on, you can probably wipe them out without effort, but early game they're credible threats. That way, they feel like a sign of progress, instead of random dudes who inexplicably can field navies the size of an empire out of one asteroid base in the middle of nowhere.
Post by: StagnantSoul on May 26, 2018, 11:01:41 pm
Post by: Retropunch on May 27, 2018, 09:20:52 am
I wish you could pay off the marauders to 'protect' you from other pirates, lowering your piracy risk a lot or completely removing it for someone like 3k energy every decade or so.
Sins of a Solar Empire did a really simple version of this where they'd attack the player with the highest bounty. It was actually quite useful as if you had excess credits you could slow down the enemy without exposing yourself too much.
That said, it was a bit binary - it came down to a last minute bidding war to try and not be the person with the most bounty which was often a bit annoying. I'd prefer if you could actually build up a relationship with pirates - this would mostly be influenced by money (what they care about most I suppose) but maybe offensive tech could be traded too.
This would lower/get rid of their raids, but as the flip side it'd harm your relationships with other empires (some very badly) as they'd know you were involved with pirates - it'd be an interesting trade off between an easier early game with a potential for less allies later on.
Post by: Cruxador on May 27, 2018, 10:30:37 am
Rather than build a relationship with money, it would be cool if you could research and implement a privateer haven policy, giving pirates a tax haven for being based in your land, but in exchange preventing them from trashing your stuff so they go attack your neighbors instead, and give your neighbors a CB against you. Seems like great fodder for a rare tech.I wish you could pay off the marauders to 'protect' you from other pirates, lowering your piracy risk a lot or completely removing it for someone like 3k energy every decade or so.
Sins of a Solar Empire did a really simple version of this where they'd attack the player with the highest bounty. It was actually quite useful as if you had excess credits you could slow down the enemy without exposing yourself too much.
That said, it was a bit binary - it came down to a last minute bidding war to try and not be the person with the most bounty which was often a bit annoying. I'd prefer if you could actually build up a relationship with pirates - this would mostly be influenced by money (what they care about most I suppose) but maybe offensive tech could be traded too.
This would lower/get rid of their raids, but as the flip side it'd harm your relationships with other empires (some very badly) as they'd know you were involved with pirates - it'd be an interesting trade off between an easier early game with a potential for less allies later on.
Post by: Telgin on May 27, 2018, 04:23:08 pm
It'd be neat if instead of ONLY PC empires getting pirates, pirates bubble up around the perhiphery of galactic civilization in general. While you're at it, have them "raid" stations instead of destroying them. Make it so that ignoring them (at least for a while) is a reasonable move.
Mid-game and on, you can probably wipe them out without effort, but early game they're credible threats. That way, they feel like a sign of progress, instead of random dudes who inexplicably can field navies the size of an empire out of one asteroid base in the middle of nowhere.
Wait, AI empires don't get pirates? I know I saw pirate fleets in a neighboring empire, multiple times, and they weren't originally from within my empire since there was nowhere they could have spawned. No mods.
Related, but did pirates get some kind of buff in 2.1.0? I've had to restart multiple times because I didn't have the resources to build up a fleet early enough on, and they've destroyed my fleet and starbases. I've been getting jumped by two fleets, back-to-back, with 7 corvettes in them, with almost no warning.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 27, 2018, 04:27:31 pm
Post by: Paul on May 27, 2018, 06:14:22 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on May 27, 2018, 10:01:43 pm
Which would be fine - I just federated with some militarist egalitarians. I had to forcefully change their minds first, so they thought alike!
Except I was hoping to federate with two machine empires, immune to my ethical ways. Meh... they have a -30 to federating for some reason anyway, so screwit. They have association status and my southern front covered, that'll have to do. Basically I'm Rogue Servitoring in reverse - no one will harm my precious metal friends.
Speaking of, that federation to the north that accepted me... Two spiritualists, one fanatical (and then both fanatical). It sure was nice of them to invite my materialist empire, and then to help enforce my ideology on our neighbor. I felt more than a little bad when I immediately left the federation and formed my own, with beer and robo-hookers.
Except it's FINE. I'm still a pacifist xenophile materialist, they have nothing to fear. Yes, I'm going to change their ideologies by force, but ONLY because that's the only path to peace. Otherwise it's a matter of when, not if, they try to destroy my robo-friends (not to mention me, having just unlocked Flesh Is Weak). I'm not even going to bomb their worlds. Considering that none of us are even egalitarian (anymore), I'm basically the good guy here. Yeah...
I don't like betraying people ):
Post by: Telgin on May 28, 2018, 12:28:38 am
Then again, I'm starting to see what people are talking about when they say that colonizing is almost a net detriment. Research appears to be going much faster for a single planet, but it's hard to remember where I stood last time I got this far.
I'm also experimenting with playing xenophobes this time, and I'm not sure I like it. Everything is flavored in a suitably paranoid way, but even the first level of xenophobe feels extreme, and I had to remember to change things like first contact policies and slavery to be closer to what I wanted. Sometimes I wish I could leave ethics points unspent during empire creation, so I could be just a little materialist and a little pacifist, without having to be fanatical either nor a xenophile nor xenophobe. I guess there's really no drawback to going back to fanatical materialist, aside from spiritualists liking you less.
Speaking of that, what does it take to get someone to declare war on you? In my last game, I had rivals for 200+ years and never had them declare war on me despite their opinion dropping to nearly -300. Even when their fleet power was comparable to mine. So far, it's looking like the same will happen with my new spiritualist neighbors.
Is that just because I'm playing on Ensign?
Post by: umiman on May 28, 2018, 12:56:22 am
Is that just because I'm playing on Ensign?That's more or less it.
The AI in this game is beyond hopeless. You need to allow them to cheat dramatically before they even come close to a semblance of a threat.
Also there's no real downside to expanding as much as you can. On paper you tech and unity slower, but in practice you get so much tech and unity from having more planets that it doesn't even make a difference. Not to mention in vanilla there's so few unity and tech choices you will max out way too fast anyway. Not to mention the HUGE production and fleet cap advantages from having more planets is way better.
I actually play tall empires to handicap myself against the AI. Though I think there are ways to cheese one planet strategies to basically become invincible.
That being said, it's not like the AI can even keep up with you tech or unity-wise. As mentioned, they're hopeless. I don't actually know how they can be so dumb, as even with 2x bonuses to everything they are still easily worse than regular players playing normally, but that's just how it is. You should also turn on aggressive AI if you haven't already. Or if you don't care about achievements at least get Glavius's AI mod to at least give the AI a fighting chance.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 28, 2018, 01:09:35 am
I merely just kept using my influence as it accrued, and that inevitably leads to snowballing and painting the map. Hence this much more interesting pacifist/xenophile/materialist run, AKA federation building. Not to be confused with the Blorg run, my first run, which was almost as map-painty as the devouring swarm. (Blorg run was pre 2.0, but still).
Acquire all hugs <:
Edit:
My run as human federation was actually what sold me on this game, and involved some federation-building. But federation mechanics basically locked me out of playing, because I federated with someone who vetoed everything. So I just broke alliance and painted the map, with my vast psychic powers (thanks to events that made me spiritualist).
Post by: Hanzoku on May 28, 2018, 03:36:55 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 28, 2018, 04:33:04 pm
Why would anyone want the game to devolve though?It's a clear evolution from Stellaris's current pop mechancis though; the proposed one seems to model job specialization, population rise/decline from fertility, instead of the current system where all pops expand like a vapour to fill planet tiles and then they're done, with all pops being the same
Post by: Majestic7 on May 29, 2018, 08:27:34 am
Also there's no real downside to expanding as much as you can. On paper you tech and unity slower, but in practice you get so much tech and unity from having more planets that it doesn't even make a difference. Not to mention in vanilla there's so few unity and tech choices you will max out way too fast anyway. Not to mention the HUGE production and fleet cap advantages from having more planets is way better.
The point of return investment is around size 15 for planets IIRC, unless the planet has extraordinary tile bonuses. Colonizing small planets is just not worth it. In a way, the new border system removed the reason to grab small planets since in ye Olde Times it was sometimes useful for border expansion.
Post by: Telgin on May 29, 2018, 09:51:45 am
Thinking on it, I'm actually not sure how to do the math to calculate the break even point, at least in the general case. A quick calculation implied that even 1 basic science lab with no tile bonuses on a new planet makes up for its increase in research costs for the low level technologies, but I'm less sure about the high level techs. My hunch is that you'd probably need 3 science labs (one of each kind) upgraded to the max to make a planet worth it at the end game, but even that's complicated by the fact that some other useful buildings like the gene clinic give research.
It probably would be challenging to fit 3 science labs on the tiniest planets.
Post by: BurnedToast on May 29, 2018, 10:24:30 am
Also there's no real downside to expanding as much as you can. On paper you tech and unity slower, but in practice you get so much tech and unity from having more planets that it doesn't even make a difference. Not to mention in vanilla there's so few unity and tech choices you will max out way too fast anyway. Not to mention the HUGE production and fleet cap advantages from having more planets is way better.
The point of return investment is around size 15 for planets IIRC, unless the planet has extraordinary tile bonuses. Colonizing small planets is just not worth it. In a way, the new border system removed the reason to grab small planets since in ye Olde Times it was sometimes useful for border expansion.
This is simply not true. Planets are almost always worth adding, the exception being maybe very late game - but at that point you've finished the unity trees and are in repeatable researchs anyway so who cares?
It's also not true because research and unity don't really matter enough to be worth optimizing for. They just aren't very important compared to more minerals and more fleet capacity from having more planets.
Post by: Criptfeind on May 29, 2018, 11:10:55 am
But unity increased exponentially, since it multiplied your unity by your population and your population by your unity, so the ideal number of planets for unity was somewhere between 5 to Twentyish I believe, depending on your tech and whatnot.
With 2.0 they changed it so that both are linear, so they are probably both worth getting as many planets as possible, unless you can finagle a situation where even a second planet isn't worthwhile, which since space resources cost both science and unity now, is a lot less possible.
Post by: umiman on May 29, 2018, 12:19:50 pm
Yup.
Also there's no real downside to expanding as much as you can. On paper you tech and unity slower, but in practice you get so much tech and unity from having more planets that it doesn't even make a difference. Not to mention in vanilla there's so few unity and tech choices you will max out way too fast anyway. Not to mention the HUGE production and fleet cap advantages from having more planets is way better.
The point of return investment is around size 15 for planets IIRC, unless the planet has extraordinary tile bonuses. Colonizing small planets is just not worth it. In a way, the new border system removed the reason to grab small planets since in ye Olde Times it was sometimes useful for border expansion.
This is simply not true. Planets are almost always worth adding, the exception being maybe very late game - but at that point you've finished the unity trees and are in repeatable researchs anyway so who cares?
It's also not true because research and unity don't really matter enough to be worth optimizing for. They just aren't very important compared to more minerals and more fleet capacity from having more planets.
On paper there are theoretical points of optimized research and unity, but like we mentioned earlier in practice this means bupkiss as there's so few tech and unity anyway. Having a shittonne of production, minerals, fleet cap, and resources is way better.
Honestly I don't even really bother researching tech boosts or switching leaders any more. The effort of my mouse clicks is worth more than the research boosts.
Post by: Telgin on May 29, 2018, 01:03:05 pm
Incidentally, I find it funny that it almost seems invariable that you'll have more scientists than any other kind of leader. They don't really feel like they should have the same level of importance as governors, admirals and generals (which I've never used) either.
Post by: Hanzoku on May 29, 2018, 03:26:44 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on May 29, 2018, 06:00:28 pm
Switching only happens if I end up with two scientists with the same general focus that I have to have split to separate areas, which really doesn't happen often.
Post by: BurnedToast on May 29, 2018, 08:20:20 pm
My solution for scientists is to find a spark of genius scientist for each field and call it good. Trying to match specialty to specialty was indeed way too much work for too little benefit.
It's not worth it for optimizing research speed, but they have higher rolls for random tech in their field. Some techs are very hard to get without the right specialist doing research.
There's a list on the wiki if you're curious which techs are easier to get with specialists.
Edit: at least, I thought there was a list, but I can't seem to find it now so maybe not.
Post by: Baffler on May 29, 2018, 09:50:10 pm
My solution for scientists is to find a spark of genius scientist for each field and call it good. Trying to match specialty to specialty was indeed way too much work for too little benefit.
It's not worth it for optimizing research speed, but they have higher rolls for random tech in their field. Some techs are very hard to get without the right specialist doing research.
There's a list on the wiki if you're curious which techs are easier to get with specialists.
Edit: at least, I thought there was a list, but I can't seem to find it now so maybe not.
This isn't exactly what you're looking for, but it at least shows the things that affect probability of specific reasearches becoming available if you click the dice icon on the right side of its particular leaf. The short version is that pretty much every technology is weighted to appear more frequently if you have a specialist in that particular field working on researching that, but there are other factors in play, ethics being the major one. They're weighted by game time too, seemingly to make it harder to rush down the tech tree on one particular branch and to ensure you get a chance to research all the techs in one tier before moving on to the next.
Edit: and forgot the link too. This post was a mess.
https://bipedalshark.gitlab.io/stellaris-tech-tree/vanilla/
Post by: Paul on May 30, 2018, 12:41:12 am
Absolute worst case scenario (Which basically won't happen) on a 12 tile world with zero bonus tiles and your species has absolutely zero bonuses to research or energy. You could put a capital, one adjacent energy plant, one non-adjacent, three adjacent food buildings, and two non-adjacent ones - plus 4 labs. Leaving you with a net of 0 energy, +1 food, and 12 research points. Even that impossibly bad planet would be about the same or better than 5 average systems (many of which don't generate research at all). Throw in some basic bonus tiles and you would be able to easily produce more than double that in science, which would be like having 5 systems with +5 research mines on them. Add in useful population bonuses from happiness or good traits and you could produce way more.
It's pretty much always worth it to colonize planets in the long run. Once you get a bit of pop on them and some tech under your belt they'll produce way more science than the penalty applies. I find my large empires out-research my small ones, unless I'm just expanding haphazardly and not developing my colonies.
Post by: se5a on May 30, 2018, 01:27:26 am
Pros? Cons?
whats the combat like?
ship design? does it have that?
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 30, 2018, 02:07:05 am
Cons: It's not Jesus.
The combat is, like, mostly automatic. The player input comes at the strategy level and fleet design. Much like any other Paradox strategy.
It has a ship designer that feels meaningful enough to play with, but doesn't require micromanagement.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 30, 2018, 04:15:55 am
I'm thinking about getting this...
Pros? Cons?
whats the combat like?
ship design? does it have that?
gonna recycle my review here because after so many expansion is still relevant
4x that punishes you for expand, where extermination is boring, exploiting is barebone and exploration is repetitive - at least the exploration fluff is quite good, if you are playng a 4x to be reading piecemeal sci-fi instead of, you see, playing it.
Basically a good idea hampered by terrible ai and automation - witness your empire becoming a clickfest of manual orders and dead personnel replacing.
maybe one day they will iron all the issues, but skip for now unless you enjoy spending 50% of your clicks upgrading building.
Post by: Hanzoku on May 30, 2018, 06:49:49 am
that's absolutely not my experience at all. And I'm someone who ALWAYS plays wide, because I get bored with only one planet.
As others just above point out, expanding and colonizing planets is always beneficial, as fully colonized planets produce a ton of resources, research and unity.
Extermination can get boring in the late game, generally once you're the biggest blob on the block. There's still the late game crisis (which can be !!FUN!! for new players the first few times) to challenge you, and you can always go and poke the Fallen/Awakened Empire bears. But extermination gets boring in the late game in EVERY game in existence, because once no one can put up a fight against your tech and/or fleet size lead, a lot of the challenge fades.
AI is decent but not soulgrindingly difficult. Automation works well - you have a set number of planets that you personally control, and the rest you stick in one or two massive sectors. They'll have enough resource production to handle their internal needs and upgrades without your having to intervene.
I've never spent '50% of my clicks on upgrading buildings', I tend to spend them on sending my war fleets to wipe out another civilization for the lulz.
Basically it comes down to getting over the moderate learning curve and if this type of grand 4x strategy is your cup of tea or not.
Post by: StagnantSoul on May 30, 2018, 09:32:55 am
I've played an assimilation robot nation protecting everyone from a hand designed determined exterminator before. That was very fun because I made it so I had to work on things he was.
I played a regular nation made of xenophiles that looked the same and had a similar name to a devouring swarm hivemind, a pod who broke free.
I even used the console commands to make myself an FE, and then just turn on observe and see what my pacifist xenophile AI does. Turns out, he conquered everyone.
Sure, you could do the same thing every game over and over until it becomes autonomous and you don't even see it. You can do that with any game. But make it fun, this game does have a "You win!" screen but it means nothing. Set your own goals.
Post by: Mephansteras on May 30, 2018, 10:16:59 am
Personally, I enjoy it. It's good for getting stories out of. I would say that it is not a game that I feel the need to 'end' necessarily before quitting that run and starting a new one. Sometimes I do, but winning/losing isn't really the point for me. It's the fun of seeing what happens while the civ/universe is interesting. If it gets boring, I quit and do a new one. I have plenty of ideas for things to go for, so the game overall is always still fun even if a particular save might run out of steam.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 30, 2018, 11:22:25 am
As others just above point out, expanding and colonizing planets is always beneficial, as fully colonized planets produce a ton of resources, research and unity.
It becomes beneficial, after lots and lots of time and clicks improving your planets.
To me, the issue is less that "colonizing planets is beneficial" or "you're punished for expanding" and more "clicking the buildings on the tiles is insanely boring"
Quote
AI is decent
all remaining credibility destroyed
Quote
I've never spent '50% of my clicks on upgrading buildings', I tend to spend them on sending my war fleets to wipe out another civilization for the lulz.
war doesn't take that many clicks. well, more than it used to, because of how occupation works. but if you don't think you're spending 50% of your clicks on upgrading buildings, you're not counting.
Quote
Basically it comes down to getting over the moderate learning curve and if this type of grand 4x strategy is your cup of tea or not.
nah, even if you like a grand 4x strategies by paradox generally, stellaris just isn't there yet. it's been poorly thought-out since the beginning, though the execution is slowly improving. maybe once they re-do planets and buildings we'll have something better.
ironic that everyone was being overly optimistic when they said "good game in 1-2 years" after release. seems like 3-5 is more realistic.
Post by: Sartain on May 30, 2018, 11:33:15 am
I even used the console commands to make myself an FE, and then just turn on observe and see what my pacifist xenophile AI does. Turns out, he conquered everyone.
Well that's because that's all the AI does, other than federating, regardless of ethics. And only if they know they have the advantage of numbers.
I love Stellaris, but the AI is pretty useless.
Post by: Paul on May 30, 2018, 11:41:26 am
I just develop my core worlds and shove all the rest in a sector. If I want a specific layout, I queue up a level 1 of every building where I want it and turn tile redevelopment off. The sector AI handles the upgrades using the sector's minerals.
Post by: umiman on May 30, 2018, 11:57:47 am
Do you manually upgrade all your planets or something?Gotta get that awesome auto-upgrade mod.
I just develop my core worlds and shove all the rest in a sector. If I want a specific layout, I queue up a level 1 of every building where I want it and turn tile redevelopment off. The sector AI handles the upgrades using the sector's minerals.
Post by: StagnantSoul on May 30, 2018, 12:01:18 pm
Do you manually upgrade all your planets or something?Gotta get that awesome auto-upgrade mod.
I just develop my core worlds and shove all the rest in a sector. If I want a specific layout, I queue up a level 1 of every building where I want it and turn tile redevelopment off. The sector AI handles the upgrades using the sector's minerals.
I actually forgot that wasn't a basegame feature. Oops.
Post by: Hanzoku on May 30, 2018, 01:00:35 pm
QuoteAI is decent
all remaining credibility destroyed
Like I give a crap what you think of my credibility.
Either way, Ive found Stellaris fun enough to play through multiple games, which isnt something I can say about very many games in the last 10+ years.
Post by: Telgin on May 30, 2018, 04:05:06 pm
I even used the console commands to make myself an FE, and then just turn on observe and see what my pacifist xenophile AI does. Turns out, he conquered everyone.
Well that's because that's all the AI does, other than federating, regardless of ethics. And only if they know they have the advantage of numbers.
I love Stellaris, but the AI is pretty useless.
This would explain why my pacifist federation buddies wanted me (a pacifist too) to declare war on another empire to "impose ethics" I believe it was.
Post by: Sartain on May 30, 2018, 04:10:43 pm
I even used the console commands to make myself an FE, and then just turn on observe and see what my pacifist xenophile AI does. Turns out, he conquered everyone.
Well that's because that's all the AI does, other than federating, regardless of ethics. And only if they know they have the advantage of numbers.
I love Stellaris, but the AI is pretty useless.
This would explain why my pacifist federation buddies wanted me (a pacifist too) to declare war on another empire to "impose ethics" I believe it was.
Unless you construct an AI empire so as it is literally unable to go to war because of a combination of Civics and Ethics, it will go to war if it has the upper hand no matter how much they supposedly love peace and their neighbours. Well, unless they fixed it since the initial 2.0 patches, haven't played it for a while
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on May 30, 2018, 05:21:33 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 30, 2018, 05:50:02 pm
Anyone up for a multiplayer game? No mods, unless someone's got a list people would agree to.I could do one this weekend. Way too much schoolwork to play anything like Stellaris during the week
Post by: StagnantSoul on May 30, 2018, 06:09:17 pm
Post by: BurnedToast on May 30, 2018, 07:52:56 pm
I'm thinking about getting this...
Pros? Cons?
whats the combat like?
ship design? does it have that?
I'd recycle my review but I'm too lazy to go back and find it, so you get the TL;DR version:
It's a very shallow 4x with a lot of greebles to make it look more complex/interesting than it is. There's also an excessive amount of micromanagement - not the good, meaningful decisions kind, but the "click 400 times to upgrade everything" type.
Still I've played it for like 200 hours or something and I don't regret getting it. It's a nice relaxing game when you just want to mindlessly paint the map your color. Just don't expect some deep strategic masterpiece because it's not that.
QuoteAI is decent
all remaining credibility destroyed
Harsh, but fair.
Stellaris AI is not good, it can barely play the game at all - the only AAA game I can think of offhand with worse AI is civ6, and at least civ6 has the excuse of being a complicated game.
Post by: Kanil on May 30, 2018, 07:59:56 pm
Paradox makes generic space game, ends up being generic. It's slathered with a thick layer of tropes, but none of them really matter, for the most part.
Still, I have fun firing up a MP game, spewing streams of vulgarities at my friends, trying to screw them over in various ways, and topping things off with some planet cracking for no reason other than to provoke additional streams of vulgarities.
Post by: se5a on May 30, 2018, 08:39:27 pm
Its a shame. was looking for a good space 4x that'd run in linux.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 31, 2018, 04:12:43 am
I think I'll leave it then.
Its a shame. was looking for a good space 4x that'd run in linux.
while I am one of the critics, I can't deny there's lot of fun in this game if you give more importance to the setting than to the gameplay. the fluff is great and storytelling possibilities endless, with the ethics, the end game events and whatnot.
you can likely get a better feel from some let's play than a short review, especially for a game that's this polarizing.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 31, 2018, 04:52:40 am
Stellaris is a 4x with some of the CK/EU trappings. Its good rnough to satisfy an itch but I have to admit its neither a pure 4x nor a CK/EU style. AI does some strategically clever things from time to time but most of the time they are rather obvlivious, so its easy to blob into something hard to beat
Post by: Retropunch on May 31, 2018, 10:47:33 am
It has decent replayability due to a lot of different event chains and a few very different play styles.
Worth it on sale, just don't be expecting a deep, grand strategy.
Post by: Radsoc on June 08, 2018, 06:41:43 am
About colonizing:
- Colonizing will always pay off research-wise if your new colony manages to produce at least one third of your average per planet science output.
- For unity you need at least 80% of the average unity output per planet in the long run. But in the beginning it can be sufficient with much less. Up to 10 planets ~50%. 0.8 * planets / (planets + 4)
Post by: Radsoc on June 08, 2018, 09:48:56 am
Stellaris Distant Stars Soundtrack - Into the Dark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXQ0msyoNbk
Resemblance with the main theme from the civilization series though:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtK388b9drE / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtO7bSRzOjI
Post by: Telgin on June 11, 2018, 03:08:34 pm
The stellarite devourer ate my science ship so fast that the crew probably didn't feel it at least.
The wiki is not really telling me much, and appears to be for an older version of Stellaris anyway. I'm hoping it will stay in the system it spawned in, since I get the feeling that you need tens of thousands of fleet power to have a hope of killing it.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 11, 2018, 03:21:35 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 11, 2018, 03:58:38 pm
I had a game where my federation of... what was it? My humans were fanatic egalitarian xenophiles, I had a weak federation buddy that was egalitarian materialist xenophile, and a strong one that was militarist xenophile egalitarian. So basically we were all xenophiles and egalitarians but we disagreed on the details. Anyway, I forget what the exact mechanic was that spread our ethics but via our influence, and us waging wars to "stop atrocities", and destroying or severely weaking every hive mind, every single empire in the galaxy turned into xenophiles and egalitarians. The only thing that varied was what the remaining one ethos point was spent on. So I (and later my more powerful bird buddies) America'd the galaxy.
I even used the console commands to make myself an FE, and then just turn on observe and see what my pacifist xenophile AI does. Turns out, he conquered everyone.
Well that's because that's all the AI does, other than federating, regardless of ethics. And only if they know they have the advantage of numbers.
I love Stellaris, but the AI is pretty useless.
This would explain why my pacifist federation buddies wanted me (a pacifist too) to declare war on another empire to "impose ethics" I believe it was.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 11, 2018, 06:44:36 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 11, 2018, 06:47:14 pm
Did they remove the option to emergency FTL a fleet if it gets stuck with no path back to friendly territory.no it's still there. Hit B to send it home and it will ftl out if there is no path
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 11, 2018, 06:48:48 pm
Did they remove the option to emergency FTL a fleet if it gets stuck with no path back to friendly territory.no it's still there. Hit B to send it home and it will ftl out if there is no path
Ok so I got a bug then, it wouldn't give me the option to FTL back. Thank you.
Post by: Telgin on June 11, 2018, 09:01:36 pm
Relatedly, it's kind of annoying that empires can close borders with magical forcefields. It would be more interesting if you could go into their territory anyway and just make them mad.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 12, 2018, 12:30:07 pm
Post by: Dorsidwarf on June 12, 2018, 06:54:47 pm
Wait, that was a thing you could do? I had a science ship trapped across the galaxy because of that and just had to wait for the hostile empire to expand to the system for the ship to go missing, since I didn't know that was something I could do. This was before the speculative hyperlane breaching tech was introduced.
Relatedly, it's kind of annoying that empires can close borders with magical forcefields. It would be more interesting if you could go into their territory anyway and just make them mad.
I think they said its a deliberate choice to stop play of the park capital fleets over every vulnerable word, bypassing any static defenses, then declare war variety?
Post by: Rolan7 on June 12, 2018, 07:00:15 pm
Post by: Telgin on June 12, 2018, 07:19:51 pm
Post by: Orb on June 12, 2018, 08:07:12 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on June 12, 2018, 10:24:26 pm
It is a little odd that they don't want any complete wars of annihilation with no recourse in a game featuring several empire types with the explicit goal of destroying all other life in the universe.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 12, 2018, 10:32:10 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on June 12, 2018, 10:49:42 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on June 12, 2018, 11:00:17 pm
Post by: Nelia Hawk on June 12, 2018, 11:28:43 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on June 12, 2018, 11:30:59 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on June 12, 2018, 11:45:57 pm
I think they get a fire speed/influence boost too, but not enough for the AI to faceroll.
A player, with the slightest amount of guile when initially evaluating neighbors and choosing borders - different story. Then pure faceroll after early game.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 13, 2018, 12:01:08 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 13, 2018, 02:15:16 am
Post by: Criptfeind on June 13, 2018, 07:49:08 am
But I think it's important to note that I'm not talking about just multiplayer, but doing it heavily competitively, stellaris is good for a more casual and friendly game of multiplayer, but watering down features and wasting potential in the name of some hard core competitiveness in the multiplayer is a mistake and trying to make stellaris do something it's not great at at the cost of what it, at least could be, good at. Make the game actually interesting to play first, then you can worry about making it more competitive in multiplayer (even if that means making a toggle that disallows the more out there options in play.) because right now the exterminator races are pretty disappointing to play or at least just... to much the same as everything else. And that's kinda stellaris big issue in the long run is that everything it just too much the same as everything else.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 13, 2018, 08:20:24 am
Wait, that was a thing you could do? I had a science ship trapped across the galaxy because of that and just had to wait for the hostile empire to expand to the system for the ship to go missing, since I didn't know that was something I could do. This was before the speculative hyperlane breaching tech was introduced.
Relatedly, it's kind of annoying that empires can close borders with magical forcefields. It would be more interesting if you could go into their territory anyway and just make them mad.
I think they said its a deliberate choice to stop play of the park capital fleets over every vulnerable word, bypassing any static defenses, then declare war variety?
yeah, but that's easily solved with forcing fleets into MIA mode if they're in enemy territory when the war starts (some Civs) or simply blocking war declarations if you're in enemy territory (EU4 and CK2 do this).
Post by: Madman198237 on June 13, 2018, 09:40:57 am
forcing fleets into MIA mode if they're in enemy territory when the war startsThis already happens in-game, based on my completely-un-modded personal experience.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 13, 2018, 10:21:25 am
forcing fleets into MIA mode if they're in enemy territory when the war startsThis already happens in-game, based on my completely-un-modded personal experience.
good - one less reason to have magically closed borders
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 13, 2018, 03:15:25 pm
Post by: Nelia Hawk on June 13, 2018, 10:28:44 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 14, 2018, 07:06:45 am
I mean in real life walking an army into someone's territory *is* a declaration of war. Every other nation would view that as a war of aggression. Paradox is forcing you to go to the diplomacy screen/preventing players from starting misclick wars.
plenty of other games don't do this. ck2, total wars, etc.
real life is not a good guide to making an interesting game.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 14, 2018, 07:54:03 am
Counter-example- EU4 does make you do this.
yes, as was discussed above.
Post by: Persus13 on June 14, 2018, 08:09:37 am
Both the examples you cited take cues from real life.I mean in real life walking an army into someone's territory *is* a declaration of war. Every other nation would view that as a war of aggression. Paradox is forcing you to go to the diplomacy screen/preventing players from starting misclick wars.
plenty of other games don't do this. ck2, total wars, etc.
real life is not a good guide to making an interesting game.
In CKII's time period, there wasn't really the modern concept of closed borders, so marching an army through someone else's territory could happen and there wasn't much rulers could do about that. Total War uses the same concept but gives you consequences for it that make sense. You're free to move your armies around someone else's territory, but unless you get military access from them first, their opinion of you is going to drop significantly.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 14, 2018, 08:16:02 am
Total War uses the same concept but gives you consequences for it that make sense. You're free to move your armies around someone else's territory, but unless you get military access from them first, their opinion of you is going to drop significantly.
funny, i wonder if anyone has ever suggested doing that in stellaris
Post by: E. Albright on June 14, 2018, 10:54:15 am
reminds me of... i think civ games... that have that popup too about "declare war?" when you try to move your army into other peoples areas
Only when you get to Civ games that have territory control, which came post-SMAC. Before that it was city-states even in the era of nation-states.
Post by: Persus13 on June 14, 2018, 12:13:41 pm
Yeah, its probably one of the few areas where I think Total War games does it better than Paradox.Total War uses the same concept but gives you consequences for it that make sense. You're free to move your armies around someone else's territory, but unless you get military access from them first, their opinion of you is going to drop significantly.
funny, i wonder if anyone has ever suggested doing that in stellaris
Post by: Telgin on June 18, 2018, 06:20:44 pm
Turning up the difficulty didn't make the AI declare war on me, even when I had -280 or worse opinion with a neighbor who had a better fleet and naval capacity. Instead... it just let them have that huge fleet and naval capacity without any obvious reason why. I've also been doing almost literally everything I can to boost research, and there's an AI empire on the other side of the galaxy that has a better fleet, overwhelmingly larger naval capacity, and still equivalent technology. So... it appears that turning up the difficulty just lets the AI cheat, but doesn't make them want to attack me more. I'm actually wondering how you could even keep up with the AI on even harder difficulties.
I did notice that there's actually an aggressiveness slider during galaxy creation, but it's too late to change it now. Does that actually have a significant effect?
Post by: Shadowlord on June 18, 2018, 07:15:03 pm
Post by: Telgin on June 18, 2018, 09:50:28 pm
The dumbest things I've seen the AI do so far aren't that bad though. What stands out in my mind is a Fallen Empire fleet bombing Contingency occupied planets for many years to destroy the custodian bots when an army could have handled it in like two weeks. And the Contingency ignoring me building up shipyards on their borders and instead sending fleets out to get eaten by said Fallen Empire's fleets instead of concentrating them.
Post by: umiman on June 18, 2018, 10:09:42 pm
No, the only mod I'm using right now is a portrait mod I made for myself. I'll take a look at them though, since pretty much every other comment I've read on the Steam boards is how bad the AI in the game is, and my limited experience so far kind of supports that.Look at all the posts here too haha. Every single page is just us complaining about the dogshit AI.
That and Paradox's idiotic decisions.
Post by: Nelia Hawk on June 20, 2018, 02:32:53 am
...overwhelmingly larger naval capacity,...
there is that one ascension trait that gives like +80 naval capacity or something around that.. maybe they took that one.
well i guess you could "check" changing the player to them with the console and checking their traits.
Post by: Telgin on June 20, 2018, 10:11:00 am
My fleet is pretty weak overall right now at mid game, hovering around 10K total in ships and maybe 6K in stations. I haven't built my stations up to capacity since there aren't any more obvious choke points to put them at, although I could start building them over colonized worlds for trade hubs maybe. Anyway, I've seen people say that if you don't have 30K+ fleet power at mid game, you're doing it wrong. I kind of wonder how that's really even possible, unless you're supposed to sacrifice infrastructure a ton to build up your fleet.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 20, 2018, 01:16:10 pm
Filling those with anchorages gives way, way more capacity than the straight perk
Post by: BurnedToast on June 20, 2018, 01:27:18 pm
That's entirely possible. I did not take that ascension perk (and instead took the arguably very marginal starbase defense platform perk...), so if the AI empire took it they'd probably be over double my naval capacity. Such is the price of roleplaying pacifists.
My fleet is pretty weak overall right now at mid game, hovering around 10K total in ships and maybe 6K in stations. I haven't built my stations up to capacity since there aren't any more obvious choke points to put them at, although I could start building them over colonized worlds for trade hubs maybe. Anyway, I've seen people say that if you don't have 30K+ fleet power at mid game, you're doing it wrong. I kind of wonder how that's really even possible, unless you're supposed to sacrifice infrastructure a ton to build up your fleet.
Defensive stations are trash and you should never build them. The stations themselves are far too weak for the mineral investment, and the platforms are also horribly overpriced. In addition the platforms can't emergency warp out of combat which indirectly makes them even more expensive.
They can't stop enemy fleets on their own, they don't even have enough health to significantly slow them down so they can't buy you time either. Then, once the enemy rolls over them they capture them and repair them for free and now they can use them against you. So if you want to use them, you must keep a fleet stationed on top of them. If you're going to do that, however, you might as well just make it an anchorage instead and build more fleet.
All that is enough reason not to build them, but there's yet another reason too - defending chokepoints is pointless. Who cares if the AI breaks through the chokepoint into your empire? If you're stronger than him, just smash his fleet while it wastes time bombing a planet then recapture everything. If the AI's fleet is too strong, follow it around with a tiny all-corvette (for speed) fleet recapturing everything after he leaves the system and send your main fleet to smash his stuff. The AI can't actually damage you (aside from minor damage via bombing) or take anything away from you without winning the war so what does it matter if he wastes his time rampaging around on your back line capturing things he will never be able to hold?
Defensive starbases are just one of those things that sounds great, but paradox screwed up the implementation (like so many other features).
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 20, 2018, 01:48:17 pm
All of those games are based on real life. Total war did it that way because most of their games are fuedal/classic era and that's how that used to work. CK2 clearly needed all armies to be able to path anywhere for the AI to work (see: CK2 boats).I mean in real life walking an army into someone's territory *is* a declaration of war. Every other nation would view that as a war of aggression. Paradox is forcing you to go to the diplomacy screen/preventing players from starting misclick wars.
plenty of other games don't do this. ck2, total wars, etc.
real life is not a good guide to making an interesting game.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 20, 2018, 01:56:59 pm
I always have one or two at various chokepoints, and they have always stopped 1-2 fleets per game. I do consider them secondary to a strong fleet, but I also generally have the energy/minerals to spare. I generally do not use defensive platforms in addition to a defensive starbase, as they are basically immobile ships.
I DO use defensive platforms in systems without a starbase. If there is a system I don't want to own but want to defend against (Pirates, generally) I can pop a couple defensive platforms in there and forget about it.
Post by: Telgin on June 20, 2018, 02:00:33 pm
Defensive stations are trash and you should never build them.
Yeah, it's funny you say this, since I read a 10 page discussion on their Steam board about people mostly agreeing that defensive stations were very bad investments right after taking the perk and building some platforms. Really wish I could take the ascension perk back, because now I'm not sure I'll be able to get everything I need for full biological ascension, plus mega structures and habitats, since they take their own perk for some reason. Ah well, maybe next time.
The main upside I've seen people mention to defense platforms is that they don't take minerals to upkeep like fleets do, but they do still take energy I think. You're pretty much right about the strategy though. Even though my current map has some decent chokepoints such that the AI would have to go through my stations to get into my space, unless my fleet was parked there the stations would at best inflict a modest amount of damage on their fleet and then have to be rebuilt.
Edit:
Quote
The AI can't actually damage you (aside from minor damage via bombing) or take anything away from you without winning the war so what does it matter if he wastes his time rampaging around on your back line capturing things he will never be able to hold?
Since I haven't been in a war yet, I'm curious about this. Is the AI literally unable to occupy your systems unless they win the war, or is the AI just too dumb to do it in practice? I've certainly seen the AI build plenty of troop transports, which I assumed was for this purpose.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 20, 2018, 02:51:05 pm
Post by: BurnedToast on June 20, 2018, 03:40:46 pm
QuoteThe AI can't actually damage you (aside from minor damage via bombing) or take anything away from you without winning the war so what does it matter if he wastes his time rampaging around on your back line capturing things he will never be able to hold?
Since I haven't been in a war yet, I'm curious about this. Is the AI literally unable to occupy your systems unless they win the war, or is the AI just too dumb to do it in practice? I've certainly seen the AI build plenty of troop transports, which I assumed was for this purpose.
It's both, really.
You occupy a system by attacking the outpost or starbase in the middle. They can't be destroyed, however - they are just disabled and the winner captures them and repairs them for free. You lose the income from the system, but the attacker does not gain it (afaik). The AI can't delete your starbases or change the modules or anything like that either. Planets are similar. Once they are captured they are occupied, but the AI can't purge your pops or destroy your buildings or anything like that.
To keep the systems forever they have to have a claim on them AND they have to be controlling them when the war ends. For planets, they have to control ALL the planets AND the starbase to keep them.
The system is very forgiving about when a peace happens. The AI can't force you to make peace unless you are at 100% war exhaustion and a certain amount of time has passed, but the AI will accept white peace you offer very easily. So you have almost total control over when the war ends, and you should never have to accept peace when the AI controls important systems unless things have gone really, really bad.
So as long as you follow the AI recapturing systems, you lose nothing and there's no cost since everything is repaired for free. Outposts are very weak so a tiny fleet can (re)capture them, but the AI is too dumb to realize that and will waste time capturing them with his main fleet. The AI will also waste huge amounts of time bombing planets, letting you either recapture more of your territory or capture some of his while his fleet is occupied. As long as you use your small "recapture" fleet to take the outpost over after his fleet leaves you don't even have to recapture your planet, since he will be forced to give it back intact when the war ends.
TL;DR: the AI does not understand how the current war system works and it does not wage war correctly. The player also has too much control over when a war ends (AI too willing to accept white peace) so you never have to give up anything important unless you've really, really messed up somehow.
Edit: white peace = status quo peace. It's only actually called white peace if no systems change hands.
Post by: Radsoc on June 20, 2018, 04:05:14 pm
I think AI in general, in games, is pretty bad. New approaches have to be made, but the guys coding it commercially seem to be hard core traditionalists using proven "good enough" results for shipping-for less work algorithms and scorning difficult evolutionary or neural approaches. It is the player who should get handicaps, not the AI, and indeed that is the case with experimental moba AI.
However, AI competitors are not the main challenge with this game.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 20, 2018, 04:12:23 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 20, 2018, 06:26:52 pm
Contained !!!FUN!!!.
Lost that game hard.
Post by: Radsoc on June 21, 2018, 02:17:17 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: StagnantSoul on June 21, 2018, 09:50:24 pm
Only opened the L-gates once, and all that had was a bunch of unique resources (and a backdoor into my empire for other empires to exploit)
That's why you fortify the entire thing on both ends and place a ringworld in each system, then move your entire pop to the L-Cluster and become the ultimate fallen empire.
Or, something like that.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 22, 2018, 10:58:38 pm
Post by: Nelia Hawk on June 22, 2018, 11:17:16 pm
Post by: StagnantSoul on June 23, 2018, 04:00:41 pm
Post by: Teneb on June 23, 2018, 04:11:41 pm
I hate wormholes, they're just holes in my defense I can't adequately guard, unless I put a gate right there to have my fleet be able to get them all but I'd rather put them near borders then wormholes.Isn't that the point, in a way? To allow for risky backdoors?
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 23, 2018, 04:15:44 pm
Post by: Telgin on June 26, 2018, 11:21:11 pm
After looking it up, I see that regular jump drives just permit the Unbidden instead of greatly increasing their odds of showing up, which requires psi jump drives. And having robots means you're more likely to get the Contingency, although if the numbers on the wiki are accurate I must have just gotten supremely unlucky in this game and the last. It looks like you're supposed to have a roughly 75% chance of no crisis every 5 years, yet I got Contingency on the first roll both times.
I don't want to give up playing materialists, so if save scumming the crisis is an option in the future, I might be tempted to do it...
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 27, 2018, 12:59:26 am
Post by: Mini on June 27, 2018, 01:20:18 am
Is it possible to save scum which crisis you get?Technically, but you have to revert to a save up to 1000 days (it's random) prior to when you get alerted to which crisis is happening. You can also manually force whichever crisis you want if you're not in ironman and don't mind cheating a little, or edit the save to allow the routing event to fire naturally again.
Post by: umiman on June 27, 2018, 03:03:10 am
I actually recommend the mod that enables all three of the crisises.Is it possible to save scum which crisis you get?Technically, but you have to revert to a save up to 1000 days (it's random) prior to when you get alerted to which crisis is happening. You can also manually force whichever crisis you want if you're not in ironman and don't mind cheating a little, or edit the save to allow the routing event to fire naturally again.
It sounds horrific at first, but it's actually great fun.
Post by: Nelia Hawk on June 27, 2018, 06:18:54 am
do the 3 crisis also fight eachother?I actually recommend the mod that enables all three of the crisises.Is it possible to save scum which crisis you get?Technically, but you have to revert to a save up to 1000 days (it's random) prior to when you get alerted to which crisis is happening. You can also manually force whichever crisis you want if you're not in ironman and don't mind cheating a little, or edit the save to allow the routing event to fire naturally again.
It sounds horrific at first, but it's actually great fun.
Post by: Telgin on June 27, 2018, 10:50:22 am
I also just confirmed that defense platforms and stations are pretty worthless in late game. The Contingency spawned in one of my border systems that had 40K worth of ships and about 35K worth of station and platforms, and they weren't even a speed bump all together. I guess I shouldn't have expected much when there were about 400K worth of Contingency ships out of nowhere, but I did hope they'd at least destroy one enemy ship.
At least I'm learning about just how much I missed by not researching jump drives in my last game. These really, really make redeployment so much more practical with battleships.
Post by: Majestic7 on June 27, 2018, 11:21:34 am
It would be nice if there was a way to build your Maginot line by constructing military versions of orbitals. Sure, lots of forts make the enemy unable to proceed till he invades, but I meant something with space dakka. Of course, wasting shitloads of resources on that would be stupid due to jump drives, but sometimes it is fun to do stupid things.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 27, 2018, 12:07:40 pm
Against other opponents the actual firepower isn't worth all that much, but the value of the various modules you can put on them can be the tipping point to victory if you've got fairly evenly matched fleets otherwise.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 27, 2018, 06:27:40 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 27, 2018, 07:10:33 pm
Post by: Telgin on June 27, 2018, 08:59:15 pm
I guess if you had the perk and multiple levels of the damage and health repeatables for the platforms, they might be pretty decent. Against the AI they probably would remain useful even into the late game if you had all of that, but I'm guessing human players would usually research jump drives and bypass the systems.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 28, 2018, 10:16:45 am
Though that's a guess on my part, I haven't ever done competitive Stellaris with other people.
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on June 29, 2018, 04:30:21 am
Post by: Telgin on June 29, 2018, 09:38:15 am
Post by: Draignean on June 29, 2018, 10:08:30 am
Do defense platforms still switch sides when defeated in battle, because losing a war to my own defense platforms, while chasing an enemy fleet around, is why I rage-quit stellaris after 2.0
Yep. That still happens. Only a small fraction of defensive platforms will survive to be converted, but it does occur. Particularly egregious is the fact that you can't directly set the core station's loadout, which can exacerbate the issue.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 29, 2018, 02:57:22 pm
Post by: StagnantSoul on June 30, 2018, 01:21:10 am
Post by: Biowraith on June 30, 2018, 01:35:01 am
There's also a lengthy cooldown after each jump before you can jump again.
Post by: StagnantSoul on June 30, 2018, 01:55:29 am
There's a 'jump' button over on the fleet info bit (where the buttons to merge fleets etc are).
There's also a lengthy cooldown after each jump before you can jump again.
Thank you, now I just have to remind myself never to jump into the enemy.
Post by: Nelia Hawk on June 30, 2018, 08:59:45 am
Post by: StagnantSoul on June 30, 2018, 09:16:37 am
think you also get like -50% strength after jumps for a month or something around that
Oh it's only a month? Easy, just wait ten seconds and then send to fleet in.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 30, 2018, 09:41:58 am
Post by: StagnantSoul on June 30, 2018, 10:05:29 am
Post by: Draignean on June 30, 2018, 01:36:43 pm
think you also get like -50% strength after jumps for a month or something around that
Oh it's only a month? Easy, just wait ten seconds and then send to fleet in.
200 days, so close to seven months. It's still absurdly useful (particularly since I play at 0.75 hyperlanes), but you better be sure you can hold your ground on the other side.
For me, the unbidden are the easiest crisis, and generally get bitch slapped into nothing within a year of showing up. Unlike the goddamn prethoryn.
Post by: StagnantSoul on June 30, 2018, 07:31:59 pm
think you also get like -50% strength after jumps for a month or something around that
Oh it's only a month? Easy, just wait ten seconds and then send to fleet in.
200 days, so close to seven months. It's still absurdly useful (particularly since I play at 0.75 hyperlanes), but you better be sure you can hold your ground on the other side.
For me, the unbidden are the easiest crisis, and generally get bitch slapped into nothing within a year of showing up. Unlike the goddamn prethoryn.
Because of a bug they used to be practically the only crisis too spawn, so I am basically Unbiddened out.
Post by: Telgin on June 30, 2018, 11:58:57 pm
The thing puzzling me right now is how to load out my ships when they have a huge power excess. I don't have the game open right now, but I seem to recall that my battleships had a couple hundred unused power, and I'm wondering if I missed something. The only way I was able to use it all was to stack shields instead of putting any armor modules, which I did for the Contingency.
The wiki says I'll get a small damage and speed bonus for unused power, so maybe that's just how it is in the end game with balanced defenses.
Post by: Nelia Hawk on July 01, 2018, 12:45:03 pm
the problem is more when you dont have enough power to fit in what you want.. but then again i usually stuff the stuff i want in and hit auto complete and then it levels down a shield or so usually.
and yea you get a tiny boost from excess power. you can see that when you mouseover the stats on the right in the ship designer.
Post by: Madman198237 on July 01, 2018, 04:52:37 pm
Post by: StagnantSoul on July 01, 2018, 06:35:10 pm
Post by: Telgin on July 01, 2018, 08:21:01 pm
I also keep seeing people mention gigantic naval caps like that and I'm sitting here, scratching my head over how you're supposed to even break 1000 in any reasonable way. I know that was hyperbole just now, but I've also seen it mentioned in more serious contexts. I'm sitting at 800 naval cap right now with just under 1000 pops and about 25 starbases, of which maybe 10 are dedicated anchorages with logistics offices, and literally every starbase has at least two anchorages. I didn't get the ascension perk, which would put me at 880, but getting much past 1000 naval cap sounds challenging. I'd probably have to dedicate the rest of my unbuilt starbases as anchorages to get that far, and maybe research more repeatables on top.
Post by: StagnantSoul on July 01, 2018, 09:46:49 pm
I never considered downgrading the reactors to save cost, which is at least an interesting idea. I think my battleships were costing in the 1700-1800 mineral range, so I doubt it would have made a ton of difference, but it is an idea.
I also keep seeing people mention gigantic naval caps like that and I'm sitting here, scratching my head over how you're supposed to even break 1000 in any reasonable way. I know that was hyperbole just now, but I've also seen it mentioned in more serious contexts. I'm sitting at 800 naval cap right now with just under 1000 pops and about 25 starbases, of which maybe 10 are dedicated anchorages with logistics offices, and literally every starbase has at least two anchorages. I didn't get the ascension perk, which would put me at 880, but getting much past 1000 naval cap sounds challenging. I'd probably have to dedicate the rest of my unbuilt starbases as anchorages to get that far, and maybe research more repeatables on top.
I grab the perk all the time, as I've too often ran into scenarios where I'd win with 4 more battleships or such. I also dedicate nearly every starbase to anchorages, the only ones that aren't are chokepoints against opponents I'm afraid of or the original system shipyard. That and buffs like civics etc for bonus naval cap are usually grabbed. Hiveminds can reach huge amounts of fleet power just grabbing every single planet for example.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 01, 2018, 10:06:08 pm
In my longer games I was running over my naval capacity and just absorbing it with my overabundance of energy income, and I *hope* that speccing stations for capacity is more efficient than having them chase that extra cost. Even with the merchant republic-esque ethic that boosts trade posts.
Spoiler: Unrelated bitter criticism (click to show/hide)
Post by: Telgin on July 01, 2018, 10:46:31 pm
I've generally been trying to build up my stations with RP in mind, but I only play single player. That is, I've been putting trade hubs, resource silos and off world trade company modules on stations over some of my planets, while putting ship yards mostly on outer rim stations. Anchorages are kind of mixed all throughout, but every station gets at least two. I've put some gun and missile batteries on chokepoint stations, but I'm unsure of how useful they actually are. At least they can't be destroyed as easily as defense platforms.
Only a few times have I committed what I assume is a sin by building hydroponics bays on my stations, and that was when I hit a sudden and massive food deficit when one of my leaders died. Can't remember if it was my ruler or a governor, but in any case, I didn't have the DLC that unlocked trader enclaves, and the fastest way I could make up the deficit was to spam hydroponics bays on some underdeveloped stations. In hindsight, I probably should have tried trading with a neighbor for it... but I'm not sure I've ever started a trade deal with another empire of my own accord.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 01, 2018, 11:07:22 pm
Even though, late game, I'm pretty sure all starbases will be in colony systems *anyway* for defensive purposes, with a few on chokepoints (if that, as has been discussed). And fleet capacity is still probably the better bet.
Post by: Shadowlord on July 02, 2018, 03:55:15 am
An anchorage adds +4 capacity and -1 energy (the maintenance cost).
A trading hub adds +4 energy.
Let's say you have M slots for modules, your base naval capacity is B, you want to use C capacity, your fleet (at C capacity) has a base energy maintenance cost of E, and let's say that C > B (if it isn't, you don't need any anchorages).
ceil((C-B) / 4) is how many anchorages you would need to bring your fleet cap up to C, and your energy income would change by -ceil((C-B)/4). If M > ceil((C-B)/4), you can make enough anchorages to bring your fleet cap to C. If not, your maintenance costs will increase still.
If you have ceil((C-B)/4) trading hubs instead of anchorages, your energy income would change by ceil((C-B)/4)*4 - (C/B)*E.
From that, you can determine whether your energy cost would be higher if you built anchorages or trading hubs.
However, overcapacity multiplies mineral maintenance costs as well, so the optimal approach is probably to build all anchorages regardless of the results of the math, to avoid crippling your mineral income...
Post by: RoguelikeRazuka on July 03, 2018, 05:02:58 am
Post by: Radsoc on July 03, 2018, 05:27:17 am
Hello, which DLCs for Stellaris do you think are worth checking out and buying on steam summer sale? I haven't played the base game yet, but I will pretend I'm indeed planning to do so in near future.
The game is supposedly "2.0+", and playable by all means, but feels like an early access game that needs more content. For that reason I would say all DLCs are helping, but prices are kind of steep. 50% off is the best it gets nowadays it seems, but sometimes you can buy them in steam bundle/pack constellations to get a higher discount. However, some are of course just cosmetics, but the most important feature DLCs IMHO are:
- Utopia
- Synthetic Dawn
I would say they are essential for a first playthrough.
For a second+ playthrough Distant Stars, Apocalypse.
Trader Enclaves added by the Leviathan DLC are quite useful if you run surplus in one resource and a deficit in another, but I'm no big fan of it because prices are not based on galactic supply/demand, but pegged buy sale 2:1.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 03, 2018, 08:53:21 am
Having spent some time with Distant Stars, I think it's actually pretty important because it fills out the gameworld. More anomalies, more leviathans, more unique star systems, etc.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 03, 2018, 09:03:42 am
Synthetic Dawn is pretty easy to decide on personally. Do you want to play as a proper robot civ? If you answered "yes", get Synthetic Dawn.
Utopia and Apocalypse are both very end-game. Utopia adds end-game structures and Apocalypse adds end-game ships.
I don't really think we've gotten any packs that add actual mechanics. They do most/pretty much all of the mechanical changes in the free updates. I'd be willing to bet that the next DLC will be a big one focused around diplomacy/trading, but that's just a possibility in the future.
Here's my list of DLC priority:
Distant Stars > Leviathans > Utopia > Apocalypse
(with Synthetic Dawn being its own thing)
Post by: Telgin on July 03, 2018, 09:46:39 am
Other than that, I only have Leviathans, which I got specifically for the trader enclaves, although I have to agree that they're a surprisingly shallow concept. Gave me something to do with the +200 food surplus I kept running at least. Maybe that will be improved in the diplomacy DLC whenever that comes around.
The only feature of Synthetic Dawn I really care about is the ability to have species specific portraits for robots, since in my portrait mod I had to go the route of creating new types of robots to use custom portraits, which has the consequence of AI empires potentially building them too, which would be weird.
I'll probably get Apocalypse eventually, although based on my reading the titans it unlocks are not really worth building in many cases. Colossi are cool as a concept, but I think they're kind of in the megastructure camp of cool but kind of impractical. I think Apocalypse also unlocks some kind of new edicts you can use when you're out of traditions to unlock, which would give you a reason to build unity structures in the end game.
I was planning on skipping Distant Stars, since it didn't look that interesting to me at the time, but now I'm curious and may get it soon.
I seriously wish they would bundle the older DLCs together in some cheap package deal. I kind of don't want to pay for this game twice over just to get all of the features unlocked...
Post by: Kanil on July 03, 2018, 03:58:58 pm
I don't care much about robots, so I doubt I've ever used a single feature of Synthetic Dawn ever. Conversely, I quite like ringworlds even if they're of dubious value, so Utopia ends up being more relevant to me.
If you like robots, and can't justify building ringworlds, then you'd probably have the opposite opinion on the relevant value of Synthetic Dawn/Utopia.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 03, 2018, 06:13:27 pm
I seriously wish they would bundle the older DLCs together in some cheap package deal. I kind of don't want to pay for this game twice over just to get all of the features unlocked...
welcome to paradox
Post by: Telgin on July 06, 2018, 07:37:31 pm
Although maybe I'm putting too much emphasis on repeatable tech. I like to overemphasize research speed so I can outtech everyone and then see how high I can go by the end of the game, but Shield Harmonics XIV is arguably not that useful for the research investment...
Edit:
Speaking of ludicrously high repeatables, I think something may be screwy with research agreements with them. I keep getting +25% research speed bonuses from these agreements despite the other empires all being inferior to me in tech. I'm almost positive none of them have researched 15 levels of shield harmonics, so I'm not sure why I'm getting the bonus.
Post by: Shadowlord on July 07, 2018, 12:13:02 am
I've also never really thought about whether it would be a good idea to prioritize one kind of research.
Post by: umiman on July 07, 2018, 03:12:47 am
When you fight wars, it doesn't really matter if the enemy has like... better missiles or whatever. What makes a massive difference is if they have more ships than you.
In the end game it's kinda the same deal honestly. Everything else can be overcome by just... expanding.
Post by: Nelia Hawk on July 07, 2018, 04:57:30 am
tech/tradition cost on 0.5
midgame crisis on 2250
endgame crisis on 2300
and maybe turning crisis strength down by 0.25 from whatever it is from galaxy size.
that probably will turn into a game where not the whole galaxy is taken by empires but still spots unclaimed... but probably will work well on medium-ish galaxys
Post by: pisskop on July 17, 2018, 07:58:44 am
Post by: Mephansteras on July 17, 2018, 09:31:01 am
Overall I'd say it is broad but shallow. AI is...ok, but not great. Kind of the level of the Civ series in many ways, though better in some ways. You feel more like you're doing diplomacy with a faction that cares about existing than 'winning the game' than many other game AIs. It's still not very good at the game without cheating, but I find that it puts up enough of a fight to be interesting anyway. And there are usually some empires that do well enough with or against the others in their neighborhood to be a decent challenge by the time you get to them. Plus the Fallen Empires and Crisis events that can be a big challenge regardless.
It is a paradox game, so I'd suggest getting it on sale. If you look back a bit you'll see plenty of conversations in this thread on what DLC is best depending on what you're interested in.
Post by: Telgin on July 17, 2018, 10:23:15 am
1. Lots of DLC, and without it the game does feel bare. I recommend getting at least Leviathans and Utopia, but everyone has their opinion on this.
2. The AI is... hit and miss. Supposedly the update to 2.0 broke some of the AI's understanding of warfare, and there are known problems that haven't been fixed. It tends to fall behind economically as well, but you can increase the difficulty and its artificial crutch to help with that if you care.
3. If you get very far ahead of the AI, the game can get boring since it's not suicidal and won't usually attack if it doesn't think it can win. I have yet to have the AI declare war on me in about 175 hours of gameplay, and since I RP as pacifists I don't declare war in turn...
Overall, I think "broad but shallow" isn't a bad description. There are planned improvements (read: new DLCs...) that will add more depth to the economy and diplomacy, but we'll have to wait to see how they turn out.
Still, I do greatly enjoy the game. Maybe I have simple tastes, since I can still enjoy the micro of expanding a space empire peacefully and checking off new technologies that are researched. The game does spice it up some in the "end game crisis" though, which was a lot of fun for me the first time it happened. I'd thoroughly beaten the rest of the galaxy through economics and technology alone, but when that rolled around I thought I was going to lose. Prior to the crisis, I had a long and tense relationship with my neighbors, who hated my guts because they were self-proclaimed democratic crusaders and I was playing as authoritarians. The game does have an emergent story feel to it, but you do have to fill in gaps yourself.
For me, one of the more appealing features, after I got it to work anyway, was the ability to do portrait mods so I could play as whatever I wanted. I've played through a few times as authoritarian, pacifist and materialist sapient horse-deer-things, and am now playing through as authoritarian, militarist and materialist space dragons by lifting some recolored Spyro character portraits. My brother said that was a very noobish thing to do, but I don't care, I've got space dragons now.
Worth mentioning that there are also tons and tons of mods for the game, if you like that, but you can't get achievements if you use them.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 17, 2018, 11:01:51 am
Soo, is this 'good'? Would I like this as opposed to ckii or hoi? Is the ai competent enough? is it a timesink to learn?
1. meh (edit: note: this is a major improvement over a year ago, when the answer was "no")
2. probably not, if you didn't like ck2/hoi. it's generally similar to the style of play you find in those two games.
3. no
4. moderate
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 17, 2018, 11:03:32 am
ah yes, a complete overhaul of the game's economic system. i guess this is as good a time as any to do that
source: wiz's twitter teasers
Post by: Telgin on July 17, 2018, 01:38:24 pm
A sizable minority of the posters on Paradox's forums seem to be mad about removing the tile system, but I really think it will be better once it's gone. It's fun for the first five planets, but it gets really tedious for little point later on. In my last game I think I had 37 planets in the core sector, all of them manually laid out and upgraded, which takes forever even if you use the shortcut to max upgrade a structure in one click.
The galactic market UI they've teased looks kind of plain and the mechanics a little shallow, but it's already much better than the trader enclaves. I'd have loved a system like it to be in place in my last game, where I couldn't seem to stop producing hundreds of extra food due to the sector AI. Selling that food for something would have been nice, and all my neighbors were too much of jerks for me to trade it to them. Seriously, I tried and they kept telling me to shut up.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 17, 2018, 01:50:17 pm
A sizable minority of the posters on Paradox's forums seem to be mad about removing the tile system, but I really think it will be better once it's gone. It's fun for the first five planets, but it gets really tedious for little point later on. In my last game I think I had 37 planets in the core sector, all of them manually laid out and upgraded, which takes forever even if you use the shortcut to max upgrade a structure in one click.I've never managed to endure the tile-game past midgame, despite typically having like 3-5 core worlds. It's nifty for maybe a few hours, until you realize just how inane it is. The only real "choices", prioritizing different resources, are handled by the sector AI (now that it's no longer *completely and literally broken*, just kinda meh).
Other than that it's just fake choices. Put unity buildings on unresource squares. Put appropriate buildings on appropriate squares. Then be forced to check in ever few RL-minutes to make the non-choice to upgrade those buildings. It's terrible.
And that's without getting into the ridiculous gaminess of managing conquered pops as a devouring swarm/crusader. That ought to be the simplest thing - they die! But no, they need to be shipped around lest they rebel.
Sorry - yeah, I'm actually excited for the other features too, I just can't stand the pop system. And my favorite 4X game is still Alpha Centauri or MoO2, so I am not some newbie to micro.
Post by: Trekkin on July 17, 2018, 01:59:27 pm
Other than that it's just fake choices. Put unity buildings on unresource squares. Put appropriate buildings on appropriate squares. Then be forced to check in ever few RL-minutes to make the non-choice to upgrade those buildings. It's terrible.
Maps are an inherently annoying UI for things that don't have geographical relationships, and all Stellaris ever had in that vein were adjacency bonuses that never really felt worth it. Even something as simple as having modifiers affect only subsets of planetary tiles would have helped, but as it stands I wouldn't mind just having a pie chart of percent effort devoted to the production of different resources to manipulate and maps that are wholly intended as eye candy.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 17, 2018, 02:23:02 pm
Other than that it's just fake choices. Put unity buildings on unresource squares. Put appropriate buildings on appropriate squares. Then be forced to check in ever few RL-minutes to make the non-choice to upgrade those buildings. It's terrible.
Maps are an inherently annoying UI for things that don't have geographical relationships, and all Stellaris ever had in that vein were adjacency bonuses that never really felt worth it. Even something as simple as having modifiers affect only subsets of planetary tiles would have helped, but as it stands I wouldn't mind just having a pie chart of percent effort devoted to the production of different resources to manipulate and maps that are wholly intended as eye candy.
agreed, master of orion 1 did planets better, 20 years ago:
(http://sirian.warpcore.org/moo1/tutorial/tut-1.jpg)
Post by: Rolan7 on July 17, 2018, 02:26:18 pm
MoO2 the sequel actually added a *lot* of micromanagement, but it added a lot of other stuff that is arguably worth the tedium.
Post by: Mephansteras on July 17, 2018, 02:32:14 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 17, 2018, 02:33:06 pm
In case it isn't clear, that's unironically true. You set planetary priorities, like some sort of galactic overlord instead of a micromanaging clerk. It wasn't perfect UI by any stretch, but it was actual grand strategy.
yep. just pointing towards the sliders. i should have cropped the picture.
Quote
MoO2 the sequel actually added a *lot* of micromanagement, but it added a lot of other stuff that is arguably worth the tedium.
yeah, it basically added Civilization-style buildings where nothing like that existed before, and honestly wasn't necessary.
Post by: Persus13 on July 17, 2018, 02:48:42 pm
I'm still a little bitter over them making it impossible to play with wormhole FTL from the start.
Post by: Telgin on July 17, 2018, 02:55:47 pm
I'd comment on the FTL changes, but I didn't start playing until after that, and I know it's been rehashed to death and again.
On the topic of the sector AI, I haven't tried letting it run without the setting requiring it to respect tile bonuses turned on, but how bad is it if you turn that off? I kind of want to turn it off, because otherwise it keeps developing planets that produce 50+ food when I don't need any more, but I'm afraid it will be intolerably stupid if I do, like building mines on energy squares. If it respects the designated focus reasonably well it might not matter so much, since I always set my sectors to be research focused and if it builds a lab over a mineral or energy square that's not so bad.
But then, its behavior with even that worries me, since it seems to only want to build engineering facilities. I can be behind by a fair bit in society research, but it still upgrades 80% of labs to be engineering facilities. I've seen that in at least two games so far.
Post by: PTTG?? on July 17, 2018, 03:10:17 pm
Post by: Telgin on July 17, 2018, 03:44:08 pm
The only aspect of the tile system that I know was dropped was that there used to be more adjacency bonuses, which were removed late in development from what I understand. I'm not sure why, but my hunch is that it was either difficult to balance or was difficult for the AI to plan for correctly. Leaning toward the latter.
Post by: Retropunch on July 17, 2018, 03:48:54 pm
Most people seemed to want/expect it to be a grand strategy (CK2 in space) and they didn't deliver that at launch - now they're gradually crawling towards it. Whilst that's a good direction to go in, my issue with that is that I don't think they've got enough substance to back up losing all the 4x micro-manage-y systems.
If they get rid of tiles and just have a high level 'every planet has sliders' aspect, then it'll be even more fast forwarding than it is already.
Post by: Trekkin on July 17, 2018, 04:57:54 pm
Most people seemed to want/expect it to be a grand strategy (CK2 in space) and they didn't deliver that at launch - now they're gradually crawling towards it. Whilst that's a good direction to go in, my issue with that is that I don't think they've got enough substance to back up losing all the 4x micro-manage-y systems.
I think part of the problem was that people meant very different things by "CK2 in space."
If you play CK2 as a Machiavellian bastardry simulator, Stellaris seems very impersonal by comparison because all the characters within an empire are interchangeable, passive bags of stats executing orders. They don't feel like they make decisions, so there's no point or way to bounce them off each other. Without that, grand strategy just feels kind of dry, so we run into this dichotomy of tedium vs. fast-forwarding.
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 17, 2018, 06:32:29 pm
Post by: Descan on July 17, 2018, 07:08:32 pm
If there's any Paradox game that I'd call Stellaris (X) In Space, it'd be like... Maybe EU3, or base-game/on-release EU4.
e: may have misread, did you mean you'd be happy if they took that as inspiration going forward on how they want to direct Stellaris? In which case, I fully agree; I have the most fun in 4x games when I have an industry that's more than just 'Rocks What You Build Wit,' 'Food,' and 'Energy,' and the Victoria 2 politics, while... bare, were at least interesting in that you had to pick a government that had what you want and might be saddled with things you're less keen on but aren't as important. Or deal with an election result, you don't even pick.
It'd be interesting if Stellaris elections were based purely on the factions, and each faction had a platform that changed your policies as each party got into power and went through their agenda.
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 17, 2018, 07:37:36 pm
Post by: Cruxador on July 18, 2018, 09:15:36 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 18, 2018, 10:41:55 am
imagine if you had to go into every eu4 province and build dozens of buildings, as opposed to just a couple ones that mattered (or if raising development in eu4 required like 5 clicks each time).
or imagine if the primary playstyle of ck2 involved clicking on every vassal's holdings and constantly upgrading their buildings, and the vassals could ruin the holdings if you didn't. it would be absolute garbage.
Post by: Trekkin on July 18, 2018, 11:21:12 am
I think it's become pretty clear that tiles weren't a sustainable way of doing things. Either you automate it away through sectors (then why does it exist...) or you require lots of extremely repetitive and shallow player activity on every planet, because you can have a few different types planet types that work in interesting ways but you can't scale that up to dozens of planets.
This is, I think, part of why the Stellaris dev process has largely been one of ripping out the flawed stubs of ideas that could have been good. Making tiles interesting would require enough tile content to make every planet meaningfully different, and a huge amount of that effort is going to go to waste in any given game. As soon as there's a standard planet in a game with many hundreds of planets, there is also a standard way to optimize that planet that must then be repeated dozens if not hundreds of times for an ultimate reward per iteration of <1% of the empire's output being optimal until the next time it must be fiddled with.
"Rule over a hundred star systems and manually zone their power plants" does not strike me as a flawed implementation of a good idea. It's just bad through and through, and while some games have tried to make it less painful (SEIV/SEV, for example, or in an odd an incidental way Aurora) I think there's a reason no one has seriously tried to run with that idea to make it more fun before.
Post by: Telgin on July 18, 2018, 11:28:08 am
Quote
Either you automate it away through sectors (then why does it exist...) or you require lots of extremely repetitive and shallow player activity on every planet
I think this is the ultimate issue. There may be other ways to make planet terrain interesting, but as far as pops and buildings go, there's no way around this, really. It either has to be automatable to a point, which will cause friction with those who think it's doing dumb things (and it probably will), or it has to be manual, which is tedious.
Maybe there are ways to make the placement of buildings and pops more strategic, such that a manual organization system is worth the tedium, but that's probably just going to be difficult. If it comes down to a numbers game of optimizing building and pop placements because of local resources or adjacency bonuses, then it boils down to what we have now where there's arguably only one correct solution anyway. A greater variety of buildings helps with this, but I'm not sure it solves the fundamental problem. I guess there's a small element of strategic choice to it now, where for instance you might have a Dyson sphere and decide to overwrite energy tiles with mines for more minerals, but in the end that's not more interesting than just changing sliders to make a planet focus more on mining than energy generation. The terrain itself still doesn't matter.
I'm not sure how to make the terrain more interesting in general. Maybe there's potential for ground combat, or for having multiple empires vie for control of the surface like PTTG?? mentioned, but in practice that sounds like it would just be too tedious itself for something that would probably come up pretty rarely, not to speak of the performance implications.
I think that the planets can be given more personality without the tile system or even detailed terrain. More detailed factions that group up on them would help, for example, especially if it influenced the planet's development in some way. Greater ability to specialize planets would help too, whatever that ends up meaning. The ecumenopolis teaser screenshot is kind of an example of what could be done, with planet wide commerce, mining, manufacturing or tourist (for unity I guess?) industries being things you could vie for.
Post by: Trekkin on July 18, 2018, 01:00:32 pm
I'm not sure how to make the terrain more interesting in general. Maybe there's potential for ground combat, or for having multiple empires vie for control of the surface like PTTG?? mentioned, but in practice that sounds like it would just be too tedious itself for something that would probably come up pretty rarely, not to speak of the performance implications.e, with planet wide commerce, mining, manufacturing or tourist (for unity I guess?) industries being things you could vie for.
I think the problem with this is one of scale. If I have one planet and I can get 12 minerals per turn instead of 10, that feels significant; it feels like I'm rewarded for being thoughtful with a tangible benefit. If I have 100 planets and can get 1002 minerals per turn instead of 1000 for the same work, it doesn't feel like it's as worth my time.
I'm not sure there's a way to make planetary terrain significant at the galactic scale that wouldn't overwhelm the early game with randomness.
Post by: Telgin on July 18, 2018, 01:09:08 pm
I saw some talk on Paradox's forums about how the game should probably transition from a planet economy management game to a sector economy management game, and I feel that that's probably reasonable. The game already tries to kind of do that by all but forcing you to use sectors once you get too many planets, but of course the sector management AI is suboptimal and you still have to manage the core sector directly.
As usual, I'm not sure what this should mean in practice.
Post by: Trekkin on July 18, 2018, 04:14:03 pm
As usual, I'm not sure what this should mean in practice.
Maybe just give every planet an exponentially decreasing curve of pop-effort-turns per resource, let the player weight different resources per sector, and have the AI continually adjust the effort allocation per planet to optimize the sum of productions * weights (with bonuses determined by the sector governor)?
I'd also keep the buildings with planet-wide effects and let those be directly buildable, sector or no, but en masse from the planet screen.
Post by: BurnedToast on July 18, 2018, 08:33:00 pm
The main reason I don't like tiles going away is that its another case of the Stellaris team just straight up dumping an aspect of the game instead of trying to improve on it. Sure a lot of stuff with tiles was a waste of time, but they gave planets a little more personality than dots on a map, and that's something that I can guarantee the revamp won't have.
I'm still a little bitter over them making it impossible to play with wormhole FTL from the start.
The problem is they can't make the tile system better - the AI is already too stupid to handle the incredibly simple system we already have. If they make it more complicated, the AI is just going to fail even harder unless they prop it up with so many cheat bonuses it's playing a totally different game.
Post by: Persus13 on July 18, 2018, 09:27:11 pm
Post by: BurnedToast on July 18, 2018, 11:55:10 pm
If your AI prevents you from making the game better, maybe they should invest in making the AI better instead of cutting systems.
They can't do that either - nobody can. Modern AI is just not capable of playing a complex game like stellaris on the level of even a mediocre human player. That's not to say stellaris AI is top of the line and can't be improved, because it's pretty dumb and they could make it better.
But they couldn't make it enough better to get satisfactory results from a more complex tile system. Especially considering it has to run on consumer level hardware which is an even further limitation on an already hard problem.
Post by: Telgin on July 19, 2018, 12:10:07 am
A lot of people speculate that the pop and tile system is also partly responsible for end game lag. While it's plausible, I'm not convinced that's the case, but if it improves performance to get rid of it then that's also a bonus.
Post by: Trekkin on July 19, 2018, 01:06:32 am
I'm actually kind of curious how difficult it is to really get the AI to work better with the tile system. Admittedly, upon a quick brush it feels like the choices I make are so mechanical that the AI should be able to pull it off reasonably well, but I know that's deceptive.
It also suffers from the problem of going unnoticed unless it works. "Make the AI better" is an easy demand to make, but as you point out, it's hard to fulfill, and even if it's perfect it's hardly something that can be advertised as readily as new content.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 19, 2018, 02:23:39 am
I'd love more CK2 like features, too, so it would be nice if admirals and sector governors pplayed different roles than before (as to not be hobbled by leader limits that much) and had their own agendas and personalities. It would be interesting to have the different mandarins in your empire jockeying for power. Plus minus more possibilities of coups and rebellions. Eg: you made admiral so and so unhappy so he actually started an uprising with one third of the fleet. Governors so and so have joined him im his rebellion
I'd go even further and remove current leader limits. Leaders should spawn whenever you have a new governor/admiral/general position open. The problem would be that, the larger your empire and military, the more likely you'll have stronger factions wanting to do their own thing
Post by: Telgin on July 19, 2018, 08:44:25 am
I'm not sure I want rebellions to be something that happens every other Thursday like in CKII, but I'd still like to see them happen and have some teeth when they do.
Post by: Trekkin on July 19, 2018, 09:09:56 am
To be honest, I don't really understand why there's even a leader limit in the game, and the leader system is very bare bones and strange right now anyway.
Of what in Stellaris could you not say this, though?
Post by: Telgin on July 19, 2018, 09:13:48 am
Post by: Persus13 on July 19, 2018, 09:22:18 am
They can't do that either - nobody can. Modern AI is just not capable of playing a complex game like stellaris on the level of even a mediocre human player. That's not to say stellaris AI is top of the line and can't be improved, because it's pretty dumb and they could make it better.I know making good AI is hard. But like you said, their AI isn't very good. It can't handle tiles, it doesn't like to declare war at all, and it needs to be improved. So the fact remains that if they are making decisions on how to play the game based on what the AI can handle, then they aren't solving the main problem, which is the AI isn't good. I suppose they next should cut out diplomacy, because "the AI can't handle it".
But they couldn't make it enough better to get satisfactory results from a more complex tile system. Especially considering it has to run on consumer level hardware which is an even further limitation on an already hard problem.
Post by: Trekkin on July 19, 2018, 09:22:32 am
True enough. I'm kind of curious how it stacks up to, say, CKII when CKII was this new, and if that's a fair way to guess how it will look a few years from now.
It's considerably less buggy than CKII was on release, but it feels more barren of features. I remember reading that people playing CKII mostly for the character interplay surprised Paradox, and they shifted development to focus on it. Maybe they were hoping something similar would happen with Stellaris, so they half-made everything as a sort of placeholder in the hopes people would see lots of potential in one aspect or another.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 19, 2018, 09:26:37 am
To be honest, I don't really understand why there's even a leader limit in the game, and the leader system is very bare bones and strange right now anyway.
Of what in Stellaris could you not say this, though?
agreed... it's not just stellaris, it's a core design strategy of all recent paradox games:
1. design the basic gameplay structure (provinces, armies, etc)
2. create a bunch of arbitrary limits to constrain that gameplay (core sector limit, demesne limit, state limit, leader limit, general limit, vassal limit, force limit, fleet size, starbase limit, fort limit, like honestly i could go on forever here)
3. make a bunch of mechanics around manipulating that limit based on government type, tech, etc
it's really like Paradox games get designed in two layers: the basic layer that defines what things you are interacting with, and then the metalayer that constrains how you do that.
Post by: Criptfeind on July 19, 2018, 09:28:53 am
Crusader Kings wasn't perfect, but it was a realized game that was fun to play in many aspects. IMO Crusader kings achieved it's vision for what it should be on initial release, and then the dlcs and updates add more or less to various aspects afaik (idk, like I said I stopped playing Crusader kings after a year of play, so I'm not super clued up on how good the updates and dlc have been since then). Stellaris failed to achieve what it could be on release, and it'd dlcs and updates have floundered without a solid core vision of what to be, they add some cool stuff sometimes, but they aren't actually fixing the core issues in the game.
Post by: Persus13 on July 19, 2018, 09:46:13 am
And I actually like Paradox's game design on limits in that almost all of those limits you mentioned aren't hard limits. There's consequences for those limits, but if you can handle that, they'll let you cross that limit without problems. I remember people who would solve the demesne limit problem by just revoking titles from everyone in CKII, and then play without vassals. Sure some of the limits are arbitrary, but its way better then constantly hearing "You must construct additional pylons" IMHO.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 19, 2018, 10:31:13 am
Post by: Telgin on July 19, 2018, 10:37:24 am
Contrast the engagement aspect to CKII where I actually feel quite bored most of the time that I play, which is when I'm playing with others since I haven't ever wanted to play it alone. I constantly get the feeling that I'm supposed to be doing something when I'm just sitting there and waiting for money to accumulate so I can build or improve a holding or be confident I can hire enough mercenaries to win a war, but I honestly don't know what that something is. Stellaris doesn't have that problem for me, at least through mid game when all of your potential territory has been expanded into and you've built up everything you own.
I'm sure I'm just playing CKII wrong, since I know there is a metagame where you're supposed to be vying to set up lineages to inherit titles, but it's something I can't really get into and it's getting pretty off topic anyway.
Post by: Kanil on July 19, 2018, 11:02:30 am
I'm sure I'm just playing CKII wrong
I feel that CK2's less about winning, and more about the experience of things happening. Stellaris is a bit more... "gamey", in that nothing much really happens beyond you going out there and making it happen.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 19, 2018, 12:31:27 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Did_e1QXcAAn3CS.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DieONkZW0AE3Pup.jpg:large)
more twitter teasers from wiz
Post by: Telgin on July 19, 2018, 12:34:22 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 19, 2018, 12:36:14 pm
Oh, those screenshots are very exciting. I really want to play the game with these changes.
agreed. it looks fantastic.
Post by: Teneb on July 19, 2018, 01:07:52 pm
we space vicky now, boysHell, it's about time.
Post by: Retropunch on July 19, 2018, 01:45:39 pm
As I said before though, my issue is what they'll put in the place of that - without it, Stellaris is a pretty empty game, so if they don't add extra systems then it'll be even more fast forwarding than before.
Post by: Trekkin on July 19, 2018, 01:55:26 pm
It looks like a good compromise - keeping the buildings/upgrades, but without the endless tile management.
As I said before though, my issue is what they'll put in the place of that - without it, Stellaris is a pretty empty game, so if they don't add extra systems then it'll be even more fast forwarding than before.
At a guess, they'll keep churning out story packs and race/trait/ascension expansions.
Post by: Descan on July 19, 2018, 02:06:23 pm
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 19, 2018, 02:10:58 pm
On second look I think it has to do with a max number of developed regions (basically tiles) that are currently in use.
Post by: Telgin on July 19, 2018, 02:15:06 pm
Presumably the next DLC will include the galactic trade markets and maybe diplomacy, but how that will interact with anything else is always speculation. Supposedly their philosophy is to avoid having DLCs interact much so you're not required to get one before the other, so maybe some of the core features will make it to the base game like ascension perks did.
Post by: Baffler on July 19, 2018, 02:17:07 pm
I'm curious on what the planet size signifies now. Obviously it isn't a 1:1 pop:planet-size anymore, but it must mean something still; it's still there in the top-right corner of the planet viewscreen.
I see the little squares below each district (which at a guess are urban, mining, farming, and manufacturing) which have some filled in and a maximum. My guess is that those squares represent the size of that particular district, and you can have no more than a per-district maximum and a total maximum of whatever the planet size is. It looks like you can deliberately develop the mining, farming, and manufacturing, while urban is probably a function of the planet's population. I'm not sure what to make of the terrain pictures below that though. Maybe it affects building costs and growth speed, being easier to develop into the river and plains areas and longer for the swamps, jungles, and mountains; but that seems to just be the same old tile system but with different presentation. There's a "deposits" tab too, maybe it mainly has an effect on that? Who knows.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 19, 2018, 02:34:46 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on July 19, 2018, 02:49:09 pm
I have a lot of hope for this new system, particularly with the screenshots. I'm particularly excited to get rid of the "granularity" of multispecies planets. I seem to remember multiple species immigrating to a planet at once, denying multiple tiles for the duration. Though if only one species can immigrate at a time, that's *also* a weird gamey problem.
And then each species lives in their ghettos doing specific things - but don't choose the things they're best at. I feel like this will reduce the tedium of genemodding and slavery especially, and buff open-boarders multiculturalism, simply by removing the micromanagement of miner-onto-minerals.
Oh, robots too - really this buffs everything except devourers/purgers, and even with those I bet the occupation/annihilation process will be less gamey. *clearly* the best way to purge a planet of xenos is to ship them throughout your empire. "We don't budget for the dead", but we do give them expedited delivery to places other than "the nearest star".
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 19, 2018, 06:23:05 pm
I feel that CK2's less about winning, and more about the experience of things happening. Stellaris is a bit more... "gamey", in that nothing much really happens beyond you going out there and making it happen.That and the perspective is radically different
CK2 you manage interpersonal relationships and it's entirely possible (and imo the absolute best way to play) as an "ordinary" noble adapting around the momentous and mundane changes of history. Conquerors come and go, but the house survives. Stellaris you manage at an impersonal distance indifferent to your pops except where their productivity or the limits of your central authority are tested - but I daresay the absolute lack of sliders does not give the same sense of joy of managing a sprawling Empire through policy executed by underlings and more the sense of an omniscient manager exasperated at the inability of sector governors to meet the perfect demands of You. The move towards space Viccy is much appreciated
Post by: Egan_BW on July 19, 2018, 07:06:13 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on July 19, 2018, 07:34:46 pm
I've been rereading Shlock Mercenary recently which is a pretty clear example, to the point that the main cast has basically ascended to godhood of our galaxy now. Clinically immortal, largely reincarnateable, and calling favors from the defacto ruler of Terran space and the AI fighting a war with Andromeda.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 19, 2018, 09:21:48 pm
The bigger issue is that in ck2, your exact position is highly fluid, whereas in Stellaris you are almost always the Supreme Leader of your entire species. That walls off large portions of ck2 or space opera style shenanigans, because everything is way more absolute from your perspective.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 20, 2018, 07:21:01 am
Post by: Egan_BW on July 20, 2018, 03:22:35 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 20, 2018, 03:43:40 pm
Yes, let's make stellaris a better game by just copying a better game's design over it. :PPretty much game design 101 there, yeah. Unapologetic wholesale copying of successful games.
Post by: Cruxador on July 21, 2018, 10:39:07 am
Yes, let's make stellaris a better game by just copying a better game's design over it. :PDoing something unique is good in that it allows for new ideas to arise, but any given unique thing may or may not be good.
And copying over the general mechanics common to EU and possibly Vicky isn't going to make for a much better game in any case, the uniqueness of Stellaris is already going out with the bathwater.
Post by: Retropunch on July 21, 2018, 12:22:41 pm
And copying over the general mechanics common to EU and possibly Vicky isn't going to make for a much better game in any case, the uniqueness of Stellaris is already going out with the bathwater.
I'd say it was never really unique in terms of gameplay mechanics, the only 'unique' aspect to it was that the story elements were a bit more fleshed out than other games of this type and it's generally quite pretty to look at.
I'd be very happy with them poaching a whole load of mechanics from CK2 - I honestly don't get why they don't just copy and paste the whole character stuff from CK2 as it's so much better than the incredibly two dimensional leaders we have now.
It just seems like we're on a very, very slow road to CK2 in space, and I just wish they'd go all in with it.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on July 21, 2018, 01:02:07 pm
That's like saying I want to play Half-Life 3, so they should just delete Portal from my computer and replace it with HL3, please and thank you.
That said I would enjoy more detail and mechanics around rulers.
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 21, 2018, 01:18:01 pm
That is nonsensical. I don't want to play CK2 in space. I want to play Stellaris.So Europa in space?
Post by: Dunamisdeos on July 21, 2018, 01:51:00 pm
That is nonsensical. I don't want to play CK2 in space. I want to play Stellaris.So Europa in space?
I did not play that, so unfortunately your undoubtedly clever riposte is lost on my ignorance.
For reals tho I would like to see leaders be more than thumbnails.
Post by: Retropunch on July 21, 2018, 02:02:38 pm
That is nonsensical. I don't want to play CK2 in space. I want to play Stellaris.
You're taking it too literally. Obviously I don't want just a re-skin, but I do want the deep characters, the ability to play anything from a small barony to a grand emperor, the court intrigue, the spying etc etc.
Stellaris is a generic 4x with some nice stories at the moment - I've got about a dozen of them and so I'd be much happier with two CK2's than another generic 4x. Sure, I'd like them to do so much more with it, but CK2 in space would be a good place to start
Post by: pisskop on July 21, 2018, 02:22:12 pm
For reals tho I would like to see leaders be more than thumbnails.Europa in space would still feature vague numbers posing as leaders. In fact, all a leader is in europa is a collection of numbers. And a surname that almost never matters.
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 21, 2018, 02:52:08 pm
I did not play that, so unfortunately your undoubtedly clever riposte is lost on my ignorance.Basically Europa is a map painting simulator that involves colonizing unclaimed
For reals tho I would like to see leaders be more than thumbnails.
Post by: Baffler on July 21, 2018, 03:29:34 pm
Post by: Retropunch on July 21, 2018, 06:09:41 pm
CKII style politics doesn't really make sense in Stellaris. Interpersonal relationships still matter, but a more detailed political system would probably end up being more about managing public opinion as much as wrangling the other political factions. I'm not sure how that'd look, but it would feel like a bit of an anachronism to just copy those mechanics if you're not playing an Imperial authority, and even then it probably should focus more on pops and ideologies since those are central features of the game.
It'd certainly need to be tailored towards the scale the game is trying to work at - the stuff with heirs and arranging marriages and so on probably wouldn't make sense.
It's more that I'd like to see admirals vying for power, factions with leaders to bribe and control etc.
I remember there was a lot about how they wanted Stellaris to have the 'unfolding stories' that you get in CK2 due to how all the characters work together - Stellaris has none of that; every leader is just a few stat boosts and completely forgettable.
It's more than that though - CK2 lets you play as either the head of an empire or a little dutchy somewhere for instance; I'd love to see that replicated on a galactic scale, along with all the cults, religions, etc etc.
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 21, 2018, 08:09:32 pm
What keeps Stellaris feeling bland and non-descript is two things:
1) There's no "canon" storyline, so there's no behavior to tailor the mechanics towards mimicing, there's few recurring enemies/meme nations that appear frequently, and basically no good way to flavor the game like the Grand Strategy titles. People notice when China explodes, or France eats western europe, because we know that's strange. People laugh at marrying your daughter in CKII because we know old kings actually used to do that, and now we kind of understand why. We can pick sides between capitalists, communists, and fascists, because we already have a history with those ideologies. In Stellaris, there's no history, so you can't implement weird stuff or lose your audience, and can't keep all the old stuff or it's boring.
2) They want the game to allow the player to tell too many different stories. CKII and EUIV allow you to pick any one of hundreds of countries, true, but in the end there's only so many real differences between them. Either you're playing a European Nation and colonizing or conquering, your playing a Asian civilization and trying to fight off invading Euros with trade money, your playing a Native American civilization and desperately fighting not to get conquered, or your playing an African civ and trying to overcome a slough of challenges. The dev can then design each area of the map to allow for geographical differences. Asia has a mess of valuable trade zones everywhere. Europe has all the endpoint nodes, encouraging them to go afield and try to direct trade home, and it's nearest to North America. North America has nations tailored to be pathetically weak until some time after the Europeans arrive, and ideas to reward players who survive.
The real way to fix Stellaris is to derandomize things and give the galaxy texture. Right now it's just a flat disc of stars, every section of the galaxy the same. Changing to hyperlanes only made a difference on a very local military and logistical scale. It just added chokepoints - which don't matter to things like trade and diplomacy. Or politics.
Post by: Nelia Hawk on July 22, 2018, 03:46:19 am
right now its "you as leader of a space empire against other space empires"
if you instead the leader of a faction inside an empire.... and the other 7 factions are lead by npcs... then each empire is made of 8 individual factions. well hiveminds etc are exceptions i guess)
at game start the empire civics would say who start as strongest... with the strongest 1-3 leading the empire (like you can chose 1-3? or 1-2? civics atm for your empire... i.e. fanatic militarist+ materialist. the militarists would lead teh empire.. the materialists would be allied.. the others neutral? and the opposites "hostile/opposing")
the starter ones would start with the homeplanet... but all other planets would be owned by whoever faction has the most pops on them.
each faction has their own sector (planets they own) and their own fleet... they could fight against each other for outpost resources inside the empire (more difficult the bigger they get?)
the leading factions vote for wars etc all the empire stuffs like federations do?
the factions who do best in wars (adding to enemy warscore, taking over outposts/planets, destroying ships) get some boni at the end of the war... maybe pops join their faction from other factions or they can claim some of the new conquered outposts etc...
i feel this all would work best in bigger maps where there is enough "other stuff" for 7 other npcs in your empire to fight about.
and then there would be some sort of diplomacy between interempire factions... a bit like the whole vassal etc chaos goes on in ck2 etc
the faction naval capacity would be split between all factions.. maybe the militarists would get 2x?
and the "empire fleet" similar to the federation fleet is controlled by the leading factions.
that would also make less deathballs as the whole empire isnt one or two fleets anymore but 8-10 or so each controlled by different ai. all trying to expand and defend their sectors.
maybe the empire leading factions would upgrade "empire owned spacestations" (really big ones... and anchorages etc count to empire naval capacity) where factions could build smaller stations for themself to defenc and boost their faction planets against other factions (them faction stations naval capacity would go just to the faction.. or mabey 50%50% faction-empire)
each faction could have a special empire specific mechanic... maybe the spirituals could do the traditions? the materialists research? pacifists trading? militarist ship designs? xenophobe intelligence/spying? xenophile... no clue.. scouting-first contact? autoritan-egalitarian pops and buildings? or factions vote on what all them do and the faction with that civic gets a bonus to their votes? like all propose spaceship designs but militarists get a bonus in votes on that?
no clue something around each faction having a special role in the empire.
and each faction having different goals they want to achieve, similar to what factions like atm.
and if you play as one of the "weaker factions" you can try to ally up with others or sabotage teh stronger ones... well or just "do better" overall and slowly grow from pops switching to your faction or so.
even in wars you wont be "useless" as other empires also have stronger and weaker factions and faction fleets.
maybe there are faction specific anomalies too... where you might have to fly some ships through "hostile faction" space so the empire can research an anomaly... maybe the "leader" could demand that one faction lets some ships through... and if you refuse the empire leader gets - opinion of you... on the other hand maybe a "hostile" faction bribed the empireleader to demand they let some of your ships through you can also use to maybe send a infiltration squad on a different faction planet to start propagandas that might lead to revolts later and the pops switching civics and you take over the planet... who knows...
so overall if the empire wants to prosper the factions do have to work together after all (like vassals in ck2 more or less)
of course a ton of numbers for everything would have to be changed for balance reasons.
but just throwing out this as an idea how it could work as spaceempire.
-------
or imagine warhammer 40k empire... the xenophobes leading the empire (+ fanatic purifiers?)... and each of the other factions are a different spacemarine order... the militarists are the most aggressive ones... maybe the pacifists are the imperial army? the spiritualists leading all the religion stuff.... the materialists the tech and constructions.
-------
or:
at game start the empire starts with 8 planets... each facton has one.. and the "normal gameplay" would work then as normal for each faction... but they all start in a "empire"(a permanent "federation") and vote on "empire matters" like tech and empire fleet designs and where to build new outposts and all that. maybe you could do your own research.. but get a 50% bonus when one of the empire factions already got it before you. or if someone else also researches it you both add to it. who knows how it could work all then.
Post by: Ludorum Rex on July 22, 2018, 05:25:37 am
I think there's a lot of great games to be made with a focus on characters, but I don't think Stellaris can, or should, be molded into one. Settings like BattleTech, Dune, Fading Suns or even W40K, would work well as backdrop for such a game. I have a feeling it will work best in a non-generic setting, as the various cultures, houses, organizations, institutions, etc. in the world can be given much more interesting mechanics and relationships, than if it has to work with a completely randomly generated universe.
Another aspect of "regular" space stratey games, including Stellaris, which is hard to mesh with a character-based design is the focus on many different space races and usually with empires divided by race (at least initially). Unless they're simply humans in suits, which is an option I guess. Aliens can still exist, but as non-player elements and not intended to play by the same rules as the core characters.
Leaders and characters in Stellaris still have an important role to play - I really enjoy their inclusion, would love to see them expanded mechanically, but they're a supporting feature for the core gameplay, which is empire management. I would not at all mind certain governments having a downside in being forced to utilize rather poor leaders, characters being more than swappable stat modifiers, etc. Especially the way characters and factions are currently linked could use some work. But I'd prefer a focus on improving the empire management and grand strategy bits over making characters central to Stellaris.
As for the announced changes, I'm very excited, and I think they will make the game better and more suited for future expansion.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 22, 2018, 05:26:09 am
Quote
... or France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XIV_of_France) eats (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne)western europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon), because we know that's strange.
...welll actually...
Post by: Descan on July 22, 2018, 01:07:05 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 22, 2018, 03:57:07 pm
I think in part itŽs because all these empires are composed of independent kings that often do their own thing and wage their own wars, and itŽs more likely that the current ruler will be overthrown by one of the kings than by a foreigner.
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 22, 2018, 05:18:53 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 22, 2018, 06:16:36 pm
I would like to see different governments be significantly mechanically different though. Something like Communist-type governments being best for building up a lot of industry really fast, but being not great at research and being prone to factional infighting; Autocratic governments are great at all kinds of war, but are god-awful at managing morale and have a lot of potential for rebellions; and Democracies are good at being stable and happy, but can't fight offensive wars without huge maluses and are subject to the whims of their people. Then all the governments in the game right now can be arranged somewhere on that triangle.
Then there's a strategic layer to picking and sticking with a government type. Should you start autocratic and then try to move to a more egalitarian or communal government later? That would do fine in getting you a big empire, but maybe the recently conquered pops don't feel culturally in tune with your people and try to secede, or they outbreed your home pops and take over your empire. Stuff like that.
Then have the premade races get more character and be almost certain to show up if the little box is checked. I always play with the premade races on, but they hardly ever show, even when I let the AI spawn in non-primitive races (I like to play Fermi Paradox a lot). They could carry a lot of flavor if they had unique lines, special AI or traits, stuff like that.
Although speaking of Fermi Paradox, I'd love to see a DLC dedicated to mechanics and systems designed to make the game fun even for a player in an empty galaxy. Better primitives, more and better colonizing rules, special events to fracture particularly large empires, that sort of thing.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 22, 2018, 06:36:20 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 22, 2018, 09:35:26 pm
Although the different psychological problems would be an interesting twist. No factions, but maybe a bunch of events unique to hiveminds that cause modifiers to reflect "trauma" and such? Probably weighted or caused by player/AI action. So like, if you're a hivemind and you're killing loads of other sapients, you have a high chance of getting an event that gives you PTSD and gives you really bad maluses to diplomacy (and thus causing more wars), or another which changes your civics to more violent and mad civics, eventually driving the whole hivemind insane under the strain and turning you into a conquering war machine and a crisis for the other races.
That could actually be modded in, probably. That would be pretty cool, now that I think about it, and could encourage a certain style of play that would make hiveminds feel unique.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 23, 2018, 09:09:44 am
That is nonsensical. I don't want to play CK2 in space. I want to play Stellaris.
then you wouldnt select the "Feudal Politics" civic.
sorry, i was probably unclear. the point was to create more varying gameplay styles based on civics, which they kind of do to an extent right now, but only a little.
having the option to play pacifist vs determined exterminator vs driven assimilator vs hivemind etc etc etc is one of the best features of stellaris right now imo. the idea is to vary the game more based on your civics.
indeed, one of the best features of CK2 is how much variety you can get out of being feudal vs horde vs merchant republic.
Post by: Telgin on July 23, 2018, 12:24:47 pm
Shifting gears a bit, but how dangerous are marauder raiding fleets? I finally got Apocalypse and have to contend with these for the first time, and after reading up on the horde mechanics and their lolhuge fleets, I'm afraid to actually fight marauders and so have been paying them off with food. I'm currently sitting around the year 2290 and have about 6K of fleet power outside of stations, with no defensive stations near the marauder empire that's threatening me.
My guess, based on reading the Stellaris wiki, is that my fleet is of roughly comparable power to a raiding fleet at this year, but I'd rather not lose most of my ships repelling that when I could just give them food.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 23, 2018, 07:49:42 pm
Post by: Nelia Hawk on July 23, 2018, 11:35:10 pm
Post by: Trekkin on July 24, 2018, 06:49:24 am
Post by: Mephansteras on July 24, 2018, 01:48:14 pm
Post by: Telgin on July 24, 2018, 02:11:31 pm
Is there a list somewhere of everything Gestalt Consciousnesses miss out on regarding events and so forth? I know they can only hack the Technosphere, for example, and can't do anything with the Horizon Signal chain.
Not that I'm aware of. The Stellaris wiki doesn't seem to even have a complete list of events to begin with, or at least I couldn't find the one with the gas giant inhabitants that want you transport them to another planet. Some of the event chains that are there aren't fully mapped out either, unless I'm just too obtuse to figure out how they have the stages organized.
Speaking of events, since I get the Ransomeers event in literally every game, is it random whether or not you succeed in rescuing the captives? 3/4 times I was successful, but on my last attempt the prisoners died. Pretty sure I didn't do anything differently.
Post by: pisskop on July 25, 2018, 08:04:57 am
if I can have war goals and am forced to waste influence on claims then why can I status quo it and take half their empire instead? Why can i make multiple claims?
I picked up the game and decided that, after a brief stint as a hu-man, to take a custom feudal batman race living in tundra who expands for less influence and collects more minerals and engineer points. 'sworked outpretty well so far, because I can almost always expand in any given direction and barring the obnoxious early game event popping and the stupid damn space pirates Im not really under pressure to waste energy on fleets until 15 or so years in when I have decent economy set up.
I also made a slow breeding turtle trading conglomerate and a mantis shrimp war machine that relies upon bull and betty netch to farm and mine.
The ai is pretty bad at aggression though, :(
Post by: Criptfeind on July 25, 2018, 08:42:56 am
\
if I can have war goals and am forced to waste influence on claims then why can I status quo it and take half their empire instead? Why can i make multiple claims?
Status quo gives you any systems you have occupied and a claim on. Winning a war and pressing a wargoal means the winner gets to get all their claims on the looser, even if they have not occupied it. You can have multiple claims because in wars with allies you might have a situation with multiple people claiming the same system, and so when the war is over it goes to whoever put the most claims on the system, or in a tie whoever has the oldest claims on the system.
I dont understand war and attrition mechanics at all. I take multiple systems and planets from the enemy and beat their fleet down multiple times but I suffer war exhaustion when the best they can do is attack the galaxtic backdoor with nothing but empty staroutposts?
Attrition is in theory there to allow someone who would loose a war to fight a defensive battle to minimize losses and eventually force the opponent to accept status quo and loose less then they would if they just eventually were ground down into nothing and lost everything.
The ai is pretty bad ataggression thougheverything
Yes. This is one of stellaris fatal flaws right now imo.
Post by: Persus13 on July 25, 2018, 08:44:34 am
I dont understand war and attrition mechanics at all. I take multiple systems and planets from the enemy and beat their fleet down multiple times but I suffer war exhaustion when the best they can do is attack the galaxtic backdoor with nothing but empty staroutposts?War exhaustion goes up over time as well as from any losses or occupations you suffer. While you may be suffering from war exhaustion, your opponent is probably suffering worse from it if the situation is as you described.
if I can have war goals and am forced to waste influence on claims then why can I status quo it and take half their empire instead? Why can i make multiple claims?
You still need claims to be able to take territory in a status quo peace. The difference is that in the status quo peace you only take territory you claimed and occupied, while if they surrender, they give you everything you asked for in the war goal (land, vassalage, etc.).
PPE: Ninja'd.
Post by: Telgin on July 25, 2018, 09:22:11 am
Quote
I also made a slow breeding turtle trading conglomerate and a mantis shrimp war machine that relies upon bull and betty netch to farm and mine.
I tried playing with slow breeders recently and was surprised at how much it hurt early on. I was expecting it to be effectively free trait points, but I seriously could not research robotic workers fast enough...
Post by: Telgin on July 25, 2018, 09:32:53 am
Post by: Telgin on July 25, 2018, 09:52:14 am
Unrelated to that, but I'm a little frustrated by the limitations of portrait mods for robots. I managed to get portraits to work fine for robotic pops on planet tiles, but they don't work for leader positions and I'm not positive why that is. My strong suspicion is that robots probably have no gender, which means that the portrait definitions in the mod probably don't work since it assigns images by whether or not the robot is male or female.
Normally, I'd just lump them all in the same portrait group without a gender restriction, but then the names don't work out anymore. I really don't want my synthetic admirals to have names like Fleet Array XVIII when they are clearly not a beep-boop-I-am-a-robot style robot, so I created new buildable pops that use correct name lists based on gender. Surprisingly, that does seem to actually pick names for them, despite the names being gendered, although I don't recall if I ever saw any female names being picked...
Maybe the portrait problem is unrelated. I also can't figure out how to get the portraits to show up properly in the species builder, even though they work when selecting a leader phenotype, and they work on pop tiles. Very mysterious.
Post by: Trekkin on July 25, 2018, 11:01:07 am
Post by: Telgin on July 25, 2018, 12:28:24 pm
It may be possible to somehow create a set of events for each space construction that were able to check for free construction ships, move the ships to the target system and after a coded delay make the structure appear. But... I imagine there would be lots of quirks and bugs with that if you could. Like the task not stopping if the ship were destroyed or tasked with something else, for example. I'm also not sure how you would be able to flag a system for such a task. Maybe the UI is more moddable than I think and it's possible to add buttons.
Anyway, I didn't play much at all before 2.0 so I can't comment on how it used to be, but it is definitely very slow to get ships from one end of the galaxy (or even a large empire) to the other. The usual response to that that I've seen is to build gateways in your empire, which I actually haven't tried but which does make sense. You can only build gateways within your borders of course, so it's not a cure all.
Jump drives can also help tremendously if you research them, since you can make serious shortcuts.
Post by: Baffler on July 25, 2018, 12:44:10 pm
Once you reach 100% WE IIRC you get major, MAJOR maluses. No influence and enormous penalties to population happiness, I believe.
Sure, you could endure it, but even if you accepted SQ by attritioning the enemy up, you'd have major revolts on your hand and your economy would be way more down the shitter than if you'd just accepted. Then your neighbours, seeing you in such dire straits, would declare on you and... downward spiral with no escape!
This doesn't seem to affect the AI as much as it does the player. I see the AI routinely spend months or years at 100% war exhaustion as the aggressor while the defender sits at around 50%-60%, then enforce their demands at the end with no obvious negative effects besides having lost all the minerals they used rebuilding their fleet for the umpteenth time.
Post by: Teneb on July 25, 2018, 12:53:38 pm
As in modding the game in its current state to allow that? I won't say it's impossible, but it would probably be a huge chore if it is doable, based on my slim understanding of how modding the game works. As far as I can tell you can't do any kind of real coding, and instead can only set up events that trigger under certain circumstances, which can do a limited set of things.I am pretty sure you can't force units to move around, but I am basing this off of my knowledge of modding CK2.
It may be possible to somehow create a set of events for each space construction that were able to check for free construction ships, move the ships to the target system and after a coded delay make the structure appear. But... I imagine there would be lots of quirks and bugs with that if you could. Like the task not stopping if the ship were destroyed or tasked with something else, for example. I'm also not sure how you would be able to flag a system for such a task. Maybe the UI is more moddable than I think and it's possible to add buttons.
Anyway, I didn't play much at all before 2.0 so I can't comment on how it used to be, but it is definitely very slow to get ships from one end of the galaxy (or even a large empire) to the other. The usual response to that that I've seen is to build gateways in your empire, which I actually haven't tried but which does make sense. You can only build gateways within your borders of course, so it's not a cure all.
Jump drives can also help tremendously if you research them, since you can make serious shortcuts.
At any rate, I actually appreciate the sense of scale this movement time brings.
Post by: pisskop on July 25, 2018, 12:53:59 pm
Also, does the game not know how 'stars' and astronomical time works? It regularly flavor-texts about five thousand or centuries when it should be recording something more along the lines of at least high tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands or millions. A space station abandoned 5k years ago? Where is that civ? A mummy a few centuries old? Again.
Its at the point where its absurd for geological timelines, let alone astronomical. An 'Astronomically long time' is not used to refer to impractical or permanent states because it was easy to imagine or wait out. Silly human writters and their silly 30k year old socities . . .
Post by: umiman on July 25, 2018, 01:10:49 pm
On one end of the scale you have fantasy games that go
Quote
"TEN BILLION TRILLION YEARS AGO THE DARK LORD WAS SEALED AND NOW HE IS BACK AND THE WORLD IS IN THE EXACT SAME STATE OF TECHNOLOGY AND SOCIAL STATUS AS HE WAS BACK THEN CAUSE HUMANS NEVER PROGRESS EVER".
And on the other end of the scale you have sci fi games that go
Quote
"THESE ALIEN RUINS WERE... OH GOD! TEN YEARS OLD OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THERE'S NO WAY THEY COULD BE THIS OLD THAT MEANS THEY WERE INFLUENCING EARTH THIS ENTIRE TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THEY COULD HAVE BEEN WATCHING ME SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE WORLD IS COMPLETELY CHANGED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Incidentally, typical Stellaris games usually only last 250 years. That means in >250 years your species will go from basic interstellar travel to immortal gods transcending the universe, time, and space.
CK2 games are longer than Stellaris games.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 25, 2018, 01:20:08 pm
Post by: Telgin on July 25, 2018, 01:39:50 pm
How often does ai war? Ive seen 2100 once and no war...
Very rarely. I haven't ever had the AI declare war on me in about 180 hours of playing the game. The AI likes to declare war on other AI empires though, in my experience, but always on weaker empires.
The AI seems to be very conservative about its survival in a war and won't declare war unless it's reasonably sure it will win. That seems to be the case even for genocidal empires, who will hate your guts all day but won't attack you if they think it's too dangerous. Some AI personalities, like Honorbound Warriors, supposedly are more brave when declaring war, but I'm not sure how much weight it actually has.
So, in general, it seems that if you want to see war, you should play an aggressive empire and declare war yourself, or feign weakness by not building up your fleet until someone does declare war. That, of course, is very risky if you can't build up your fleet in time.
I've recently tried playing with the AI set to Aggressive, but haven't noticed any change. Turning up the difficulty would probably help too since it makes the AI economies stronger to the point that they probably compete with you.
Quote
Also, does the game not know how 'stars' and astronomical time works? It regularly flavor-texts about five thousand or centuries when it should be recording something more along the lines of at least high tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands or millions. A space station abandoned 5k years ago? Where is that civ? A mummy a few centuries old? Again.
Its at the point where its absurd for geological timelines, let alone astronomical. An 'Astronomically long time' is not used to refer to impractical or permanent states because it was easy to imagine or wait out. Silly human writters and their silly 30k year old socities . . .
My favorite example of this is the anomaly where your ships are grazed by railgun rounds fired from an adjacent galaxy. The scales are hilariously out of whack. For example, when the Andromeda and Milky Way galaxies collide in the distant future, it's actually vanishingly unlikely that any two stars will collide, so what are the odds that a tiny railgun round will hit a tiny spaceship over such distances?
But, yeah, it's the kind of campy sci-fi that the game emulates, so that's what we get.
Post by: Trekkin on July 25, 2018, 02:14:17 pm
At any rate, I actually appreciate the sense of scale this movement time brings.
Oh, I like it too; it's certainly different, but running a war cluster-by-cluster isn't inherently less fun than your whole empire being a few months wide. That said, it does make choosing constructor ships less trivial, since the lag is bigger, and nontrivial but mathematically obvious decisions are book-keeping rather than grand strategy.
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 25, 2018, 04:47:37 pm
It was a very big shotgun.
My favorite example of this is the anomaly where your ships are grazed by railgun rounds fired from an adjacent galaxy. The scales are hilariously out of whack. For example, when the Andromeda and Milky Way galaxies collide in the distant future, it's actually vanishingly unlikely that any two stars will collide, so what are the odds that a tiny railgun round will hit a tiny spaceship over such distances?
Post by: Egan_BW on July 25, 2018, 05:29:57 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on July 25, 2018, 06:27:20 pm
Once you reach 100% WE IIRC you get major, MAJOR maluses. No influence and enormous penalties to population happiness, I believe.
Unless things have been changed yet again while I wasn't looking, which is possible, that is no longer the case. They tried that for a bit before people started exploiting it, either by ignoring the maluses completely or letting their rivals sit at 100% forever and be crippled by them. So instead they have it that status-quo automatically kicks in after 24 months or something like that. Have to always accept status-quo? Something like that. It's been way, way too long since I last played Stellaris but it feels so bland to me now and I haven't found any good mods to solve that problem and yeah.
Post by: Telgin on July 25, 2018, 06:41:18 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 25, 2018, 07:01:00 pm
If you fire a 20 kilo slug into space, it's going to continue on to hit something. The only way it wouldn't is if you managed to miss so goddamn hard that the slug didn't meet any solid mass for several eons, or if it got lucky and got wrapped into a tight orbit around a star and boiled away, at which point the gas would still be moving at velocity but probably wouldn't be very lethal beyond being boiled metal.
The chances of you nailing a starship in another galaxy is suitably absurd, but so is the chances of Sol not showing any signs of extra terrestrial life until 2200, when Humans discover hyperdrive and then very suddenly are visited by space whales. And that shit happens to me every game! :P
Post by: Teneb on July 25, 2018, 07:20:14 pm
Given that, barring the slug hitting something, it would take a plurality of stellar lifetimes for it to slow down appreciably, I'm not sure what they got wrong.It is well known that the
If you fire a 20 kilo slug into space, it's going to continue on to hit something. The only way it wouldn't is if you managed to miss so goddamn hard that the slug didn't meet any solid mass for several eons, or if it got lucky and got wrapped into a tight orbit around a star and boiled away, at which point the gas would still be moving at velocity but probably wouldn't be very lethal beyond being boiled metal.
The chances of you nailing a starship in another galaxy is suitably absurd, but so is the chances of Sol not showing any signs of extra terrestrial life until 2200, when Humans discover hyperdrive and then very suddenly are visited by space whales. And that shit happens to me every game! :P
Post by: pisskop on July 25, 2018, 07:21:31 pm
Post by: Teneb on July 25, 2018, 08:00:44 pm
game boxed me into 10 star systems; crystal swarm to left of me, Death orb to the right: here I am, stuck in the middle aloneTime to play tall, eh?
Post by: Telgin on July 25, 2018, 09:17:15 pm
Given that, barring the slug hitting something, it would take a plurality of stellar lifetimes for it to slow down appreciably, I'm not sure what they got wrong.
If you fire a 20 kilo slug into space, it's going to continue on to hit something. The only way it wouldn't is if you managed to miss so goddamn hard that the slug didn't meet any solid mass for several eons, or if it got lucky and got wrapped into a tight orbit around a star and boiled away, at which point the gas would still be moving at velocity but probably wouldn't be very lethal beyond being boiled metal.
Actually... space is so mind bogglingly empty that a shot probably would literally miss hitting anything (except the odd speck of dust or hydrogen atom anyway). Like I mentioned before, even two colliding galaxies are so empty that solid things are extremely unlikely to hit each other, and planets and stars are way bigger than railgun slugs. Just think about how big the sun is, but the fact that the nearest star is almost 30 million times farther away than the sun is wide. If I did the math right just now, anyway.
Although, now that I think about it, I'm not sure what the escape velocity of the galaxy is, so a railgun round would probably remain bound to the galaxy and might oscillate and eventually hit the black hole at the center in a trillion years or something.
This is all assuming firing from a random point in space though, and it is different if you're doing it in orbit around a planet or close to a star. You're comparatively likely to hit them in that case with random shots, and in fairness that's probably intended to be implied with the Mass Effect dialogue.
game boxed me into 10 star systems; crystal swarm to left of me, Death orb to the right: here I am, stuck in the middle alone
Crystal swarms are pretty tough to tackle early on, so that sucks. What's a death orb though?
Post by: Trekkin on July 25, 2018, 10:22:39 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 25, 2018, 11:29:53 pm
-[empty snip]-Yeah, space is empty and big, but time is bigger, and solid matter has a habit of failing to dissolve randomly. The shot would continue one until it hit something or something broke it apart, like the boiling I talked about before. That changes things, because we're not talking about a timescale of tens of thousands of years, which would make it ridiculous that such a slug could even escape the galactic orbit, much less hit something. But on the timescale of the "life" of the round, it becomes more likely that eventually, after eons of flying at luminal speeds through space, it finally hits something big enough to "count". Or, again, something acts to break it up, like a gravitational anomaly or nearby supernova boiling it away.
It's silly to think a sapient is ever going to see it again. Voyager is probably lost to Humanity forever, and we still know where it is, it's transmitting a signal! And moving quite slowly!
But eventually it will take a trip through a solar system and be thrown into an orbit where it hits something or boils away. There's nothing else that will actually stop it, so it has to happen eventually.
Post by: BurnedToast on July 26, 2018, 03:28:45 am
Incidentally, typical Stellaris games usually only last 250 years. That means in >250 years your species will go from basic interstellar travel to immortal gods transcending the universe, time, and space.
CK2 games are longer than Stellaris games.
I actually feel the opposite about tech progression. Stellaris species are insanely stagnant if you look at the actual stats and not the scifi technobabble. Ships from the start of the game still present a credible threat to your 250 years later "transcend time and space" fleet in equal numbers - they won't win, but they will score kills. It's even worse if you compare them on a per-cost basis, the high tech fleet still wins but not by a huge amount (before the combat/tech revamp a few patches back, the low tech ships would actually win per cost) Stellaris' primary military technological advancement seems to mostly be figuring out how to order more ships to be in the same fleet without charging you extra.
Compare to real world 250 years ago - it was still the age of sail with cannon broadsides and compass navigation. If you ignore logistics (food, fuel, ammo), a single modern destroyer could kill roughly an unlimited amount of age of sail ships at the same time.
Economically it's the same, per-planet is only about 2.5 times as strong as starting tech. Meanwhile 250 years ago was the very beginning edge of the industrial revolution.
That's actually one of the biggest reasons stellaris is all about expansion, and why tech penalty is such a stupid anti-snowball mechanism. Stellaris has the weakest, most meaningless tech progression of any 4x I've ever played.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 26, 2018, 07:44:46 am
That's actually one of the biggest reasons stellaris is all about expansion, and why tech penalty is such a stupid anti-snowball mechanism. Stellaris has the weakest, most meaningless tech progression of any 4x I've ever played.
yes, and it's really frustrating.
it's like, there's a "fallen empire" that's thousands of years old, untold technical prowess, etc?
yeah, give me 100-120 years, i'll be able to beat them given IRL earth starting technology. it's dumb.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 26, 2018, 07:46:06 am
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DjB6mCCXgAAXIZE.jpg:large)
Quote
Under the new planet management system, how you use your district slots will shape the ways you can develop a planet - city districts give lots of housing for pops and infrastructure to support buildings with specialized jobs, but come at the expense of raw resource production.
https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/1022451921867694082
Post by: Telgin on July 26, 2018, 09:09:42 am
Post by: pisskop on July 26, 2018, 09:30:48 am
Post by: Criptfeind on July 26, 2018, 09:40:57 am
Or it could be an EU style trade system, trade value is how much money you can extract from a system by controlling the trade in it.
Either way would be interesting, because they speak of an actual reason to interact with AI, which is sorely lacking in stellaris right now.
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 26, 2018, 12:02:13 pm
They could even do something interesting with it where only civs start with their own market which then merges with other civs markets as they expand until the Galatic Market is one entity!
Post by: Trekkin on July 26, 2018, 01:38:53 pm
You know, I'd rather they ported over the whole economic sim from Vicky wholesale. A Galactic Market, where you buy and sell Antimatter at fluctuating prices based on supply and demand.
They could even do something interesting with it where only civs start with their own market which then merges with other civs markets as they expand until the Galatic Market is one entity!
This is Stellaris. They'll do something interesting where you can trade 0.01% of an antiproton per year, rising to 0.05% with traits, to prevent snowballing too fast. Antiprotons will have no use for another six patches, at which point they can be exchanged 1:1 for Unity, and Synthetics will get a 5% nerf to everything while Biologicals get a trait for 0.001% more antiprotons/year in a DLC.
Also we're probably ten patches out from losing hyperlanes and everyone plays tall forever.
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 28, 2018, 07:34:34 pm
I mean it looks like it'll be a nice change but I'm afraid it's not really going to make Stellaris feel complete. They really need to do that diplomacy patch before anything else, AFAIC.
I think this is the fundamental design flaw. They're trying to stop snowballing, but I think what they should be doing is allowing snowballing and adding in mechanics to cause collapses. Paradox game empires never fall, is the problem - if the Byzzies actually collapse like they're supposed to, anatolia is fun. The galaxy would be the same way if there were mechanics to cause large empires to crumble into smaller states, lose planets, that sort of thing. Factions are something of a start, but right now they're too easy to keep placated when you're huge. They should be more rowdy and more numerous, and willing to work together, when your empire is larger, such that even if you conquer the whole galaxy you still need a massive fleet to fight off pirates and rebels and such, that sort of thing.You know, I'd rather they ported over the whole economic sim from Vicky wholesale. A Galactic Market, where you buy and sell Antimatter at fluctuating prices based on supply and demand.
They could even do something interesting with it where only civs start with their own market which then merges with other civs markets as they expand until the Galatic Market is one entity!
This is Stellaris. They'll do something interesting where you can trade 0.01% of an antiproton per year, rising to 0.05% with traits, to prevent snowballing too fast.
As it is, a planet is colonized once and then usually never changes for the rest of the game, besides upgrades to buildings and maybe swapping hands once or twice. There ought to be internal factors that make keeping a fuckhuge empire together a difficult job unless you're one of the endgame crises. That'd reflect the whole space opera theme better anyway.
Post by: Trekkin on July 28, 2018, 09:32:50 pm
The snowball limiters are, I think, symptomatic of this larger problem where Stellaris is trying to tell a story without anyone to tell it about, so they fall back on making the mechanics ramp in ways that look narrative-like. We're watching galactic ESPN.
Post by: umiman on July 28, 2018, 11:42:57 pm
Instability would be great, but to my mind we need characters if Stellaris is to be space opera. Right now we have Star Wars if Luke Skywalker were a nameless member of a carrier wing deployed against a Planet Cracker and Darth Vader were a bonus to fire rate from the Chosen One trait. Dramatic things happen but there's no sense of anyone noticing; there's not so much a plot as a series of events related casually only in dull, abstruse ways.Stellaris is simply just a space 4X made by people who don't like playing space 4X.
The snowball limiters are, I think, symptomatic of this larger problem where Stellaris is trying to tell a story without anyone to tell it about, so they fall back on making the mechanics ramp in ways that look narrative-like. We're watching galactic ESPN.
Spoiler: me ranting again (click to show/hide)
On a plus note, their CEO stepped down so maybe we'll get someone who cares more about making good games rather than shitty DLC that cost too much but contain too little. (https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-07-27-paradox-weve-released-crappy-games-in-the-past-i-dont-want-to-do-that-anymore) Mr. "Oh, why is everyone so mad that we decided to raise prices in every country that isn't US on games that are over a decade old I really can't understand why you're angry to pay $50 for a DLC for CK2. You guys are totally overreacting guys but just because I'm so nice I'll revert the change okay! But don't worry we'll think about doing it again ;)". (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/a-comment-from-fred-ceo-r-e-pricing-update-read-post-68.1031121/)
Or most likely we'll get even more of the same.
Post by: Trekkin on July 29, 2018, 01:39:04 am
We have random events and traits and the bare bones of a classic Paradox software toy that can be played, steered, or let run to watch the little folks bounce off each other, but their impact has to be muted to conform to the needs of the 4X elements that dictated there be a complex planet system and combat engine and little enough randomness that strategy meant a great deal. However, the difference between good and bad strategy could not be so great as to make the multiplayer boring with long stretches of doomed play.
Consequently, we get half of three games, which is a game and a half on paper but never a full experience in practice.
Post by: Radsoc on July 29, 2018, 03:20:24 am
I don't think a new CEO will change anything, it's a lucrative business practice, and in any business you need to maximize profits to outcompete and buy your competitors before they outcompete you.
Post by: Cruxador on July 29, 2018, 12:09:14 pm
Post by: MorleyDev on July 29, 2018, 01:34:40 pm
Wait, my neighbour is a fanatical purifier. Can't have them. Best kill them quick.
Wait, my marauder neighbour just got a Great Khan? Best act as the main border between them for most of his life, stopping them gaining many strapys before eventually becoming one just a few years before the Great Khan died.
Wait, the isolationist Fallen Empire just awake and I'm the only one that can match them in military? Best fight them and constantly fight their thralls.
Wait, the contingency just triggered? Well, the fallen empire's mask fleet power is 75k so they're not very helpful. They spawn mostly in areas with massive border gore already, and just wreck everything. The ancient caretakers goes berserk and basically locks the fallen empire away in a war.
The one that spawns in my empire is contained inside a part of the hyperlanes with one way out and a defence platform on that way which can combine with my fleet to hold it back. I eventually manage to tech up and wipe it out, and then slowly take care of the closer and easier to access ones and eventually the far away one. I use my Planet Cracker called the Death Star on each one.
Just cracked Nexus Zero-One with the Death Star.
So the Sith just saved the galaxy. With the Death Star. ...sigh. So after all that, I reform government into an Imperium of the Sith under the immortal God-Emperor and finally get to be the evil sith and use my clone and psionic army to conquer a dramatically weakened galaxy with my 500k fleet.
First step! Crush the two awakened empires trying to subjugate the galaxy! ...wait.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 29, 2018, 05:30:55 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on July 29, 2018, 07:01:49 pm
I'm not sure planets are the problem? Galactic Civilizations did the whole tile and building thing but there wasn't a fluff problem there. The problem is definitely with the governments and AI. That's where you spend most of the game. Planets are really just resource pumps to fuel diplomatic Negotiations / "Negotiations", internal or external.
I mean it looks like it'll be a nice change but I'm afraid it's not really going to make Stellaris feel complete. They really need to do that diplomacy patch before anything else, AFAIC.I think this is the fundamental design flaw. They're trying to stop snowballing, but I think what they should be doing is allowing snowballing and adding in mechanics to cause collapses. Paradox game empires never fall, is the problem - if the Byzzies actually collapse like they're supposed to, anatolia is fun. The galaxy would be the same way if there were mechanics to cause large empires to crumble into smaller states, lose planets, that sort of thing. Factions are something of a start, but right now they're too easy to keep placated when you're huge. They should be more rowdy and more numerous, and willing to work together, when your empire is larger, such that even if you conquer the whole galaxy you still need a massive fleet to fight off pirates and rebels and such, that sort of thing.You know, I'd rather they ported over the whole economic sim from Vicky wholesale. A Galactic Market, where you buy and sell Antimatter at fluctuating prices based on supply and demand.
They could even do something interesting with it where only civs start with their own market which then merges with other civs markets as they expand until the Galatic Market is one entity!
This is Stellaris. They'll do something interesting where you can trade 0.01% of an antiproton per year, rising to 0.05% with traits, to prevent snowballing too fast.
As it is, a planet is colonized once and then usually never changes for the rest of the game, besides upgrades to buildings and maybe swapping hands once or twice. There ought to be internal factors that make keeping a fuckhuge empire together a difficult job unless you're one of the endgame crises. That'd reflect the whole space opera theme better anyway.
This is pretty much spot on. Gal Civ is good because the higher-difficulty AI is blisteringly clever and the strategic-level game is about using your civ's advantages to stall the others from pursuing their own victory paths rather than accumulating a critical mass of numbers in a deathball. Notably, you could do without any significant fleet forces and go for a pure culture or research victory... as long as you planned it carefully and were positioned well on the map.
They keep trying to set it up to act like a reflection of contemporary terrestrial geopolitics... but even then Stellaris has fewer failed states and successful revolutions than the real world. It's shallow and tedious across the board because nothing really matters except building up a fuckoff big fleet, and the systems you use to do that are not interesting to interact with. Then they decide that deathballs are boring and do everything they can to stop them from accumulating, so it becomes even more tedious to do the one semi-fun thing in the game.
It's more or less the repeated failing of PDX: they make grand strat games that are really just wargames, then make the wargame aspect just a doomstack-pushing simulator where you spend two hours catching the enemy stack and ten sieging out all their provinces. Stellaris is even worse because it lacks the historical event chains for different countries. It's like they still haven't figured out why CKII was and is so popular.
That's kinda the sad thing, too, is that Stellaris has so many mechanics which could be really engaging if they were properly developed, but they're all mostly ignored in favor of stack smashing or specifically funneled in the direction of offering things to smash other than other stacks.
Post by: Karnewarrior on July 29, 2018, 08:44:18 pm
Meanwhile Galciv III had an expansion pack all about Intrigue and Governments and interactions between different governments and gave you the ability to create client states and it's really fucking good. I just conquered the Kryyn, they surrendered to the Onyx Hive, and I had too many planets for my republic so I broke off the old Kryyn worlds and made the Kryyn Republic a thing. It was really cool, and immersive, and there were a lot of interesting ways it could have gone - maybe the Kryyn surrender to my other enemies, the Drengin? Maybe they didn't surrender at all and I conquer them world by world, overextending and tanking my morale? Maybe they surrender to someone who isn't on the other side of the galaxy? All this shit matters, and it can happen.
Meanwhile Stellaris allows you little customization of any states you create, doesn't allow the A.I. to spitefully fuck you by surrendering to your ally/frenemy, Governments barely matter at all, and gives the A.I. nations literally no flavor because they're always randomly generated. I like Stellaris, it's pretty and very fun in the early game before the doomstacking begins because it feels adventurous and dangerous poking around where there are big scary space monsters and aliens that might eat you, but once you've met one type of A.I. you've met it a hundred times because shit never changes. The only thing that ever prevents you from befriending everyone you meet is some of the A.I. nations are fanatics who are always at war with everyone, but then they're usually kicked into the dirt. There's no reason to want to be friends with everyone though, because there's no benefit to it. There's no reward for having allies. They don't do anything for you that just conquering their planets wouldn't do. It's purely a RP decision.
The Galciv A.I. isn't really all that smart, it just has personality. The restricted set of races means they can code specifically for that race, and then there's certain situations where the A.I. is programmed to stop looking for the best way to win and start looking for the best way to fuck the player as it loses. The Stellaris A.I. does not and cannot do that. For every nation, in every circumstance, the Stellaris A.I's sole goal is the same 4X paradigm it started with. It never goes out of it's way to screw you or another A.I., it never self-sabotages for petty reasons, it's never honestly petty at all. That's why it feels like Galciv's A.I. is better, because Galciv's A.I. is petty as fuck.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 30, 2018, 07:27:27 am
The Galciv A.I. isn't really all that smart, it just has personality. The restricted set of races means they can code specifically for that race, and then there's certain situations where the A.I. is programmed to stop looking for the best way to win and start looking for the best way to fuck the player as it loses. The Stellaris A.I. does not and cannot do that. For every nation, in every circumstance, the Stellaris A.I's sole goal is the same 4X paradigm it started with. It never goes out of it's way to screw you or another A.I., it never self-sabotages for petty reasons, it's never honestly petty at all. That's why it feels like Galciv's A.I. is better, because Galciv's A.I. is petty as fuck.
Play on the highest 2-3 difficulty settings. GalCiv AI is genuinely that good, but they only start taking restrictions off of it above the mid-grade difficulties. I mean, good in the sense that it actually plans ahead and coordinates complex actions rather than the usual route of cheating. IIRC it's because they have a really good specialist with AI on their dev team.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 30, 2018, 08:00:02 am
martin showing off some buildings on twitter
I like this approach. It means you're pointing the planet in a direction without having to revisit it constantly to ugprade or make trivial decisions like "build a new mine to accommodate the new pop on the mining tile"
additional buildings look to be increasingly expensive, so it actually matters which specific buildings you pick on each planet, as opposed to your empire just being the sum of tiles across all your planets.
Post by: Telgin on July 30, 2018, 10:36:23 am
In any case, I really like the way this is starting to look. It sounds like a great improvement over the old system in many ways.
On the subject of snowballing and instability from a few posts back: I agree. The anti-snowballing mechanics seem to try to ensure that smaller empires can somehow remain competitive with larger ones, which is kind of reasonable since your starting position can lock you into smaller territory, but I agree completely that making a bigger empire just harder to keep together would go a long way toward solving the issue.
Post by: pisskop on July 30, 2018, 10:56:45 am
Traditional or Civic adherence? If pops can no longer be individually assigned, enslaved, or monitored then a measure of how cohesive they are is useful.
Post by: Il Palazzo on July 30, 2018, 10:59:14 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 30, 2018, 11:18:21 am
When is this revamp/update scheduled for? It actually makes me want to return to playing.
i would guess we are still talking 3+ months out. hard to know.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 30, 2018, 11:20:10 am
I think the increasing numbers for the locked building tiles were related to the planet's development (the infrastructure mentioned, I'd guess) and not a literal cost, but it does mean having to make something of a strategic decision based on priority.
the flat numbers there make me think infrastructure too, and probably something like EU4's Development, which could require some other investment, like Influence. probably tech-related as well, but in any case, strictly limited based on a variety of factors.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 30, 2018, 11:33:07 am
Nooooo, please be joking ):When is this revamp/update scheduled for? It actually makes me want to return to playing.
i would guess we are still talking 3+ months out. hard to know.
This is always a "problem" with Paradox's dev diaries, it's so tempting to wait for the update before starting a new game. Particularly in this case, because they're addressing a source of such tedium. Ah well, it'll happen when it happens...
Post by: Telgin on July 30, 2018, 12:44:41 pm
Anyone know what that little scale symbol indicates? Habitability is at the top so it's definitely not that. I'm wondering if it's either to show trade deficit/surplus or if it's some kind of "Justice" level or something. A bit like how Vicky has admin efficiency, which affects the police force, which if low can cause provinces to get temporary negative modifiers due to rampant crime.
Someone on Paradox's forums noted that it also coincided with the happiness of the pop being viewed, so some thing it's related to that. The devs already confirmed that population happiness won't impact production anymore, so it could be related to unrest or order and this value could be part of that.
Post by: Trekkin on July 30, 2018, 02:16:01 pm
Someone on Paradox's forums noted that it also coincided with the happiness of the pop being viewed, so some thing it's related to that. The devs already confirmed that population happiness won't impact production anymore, so it could be related to unrest or order and this value could be part of that.
That would be my guess. Without tiles, we have fewer options for how to sequester ethically undesirable pops (or am I the only one who moved all my xenophobes and spiritualists to low-producing tiles?), particularly for egalitarians, so there's probably a minor rework in terms of what happiness and ethics divergence and so forth actually do on a per-planet basis.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on July 30, 2018, 06:19:12 pm
I'm surprised the Modding community hasn't already done something like this. But I'm equally shocked Paradox hasn't addressed this. Like, Utopia was a step towards it, but it was all internal and again, way too easy. And then they haven't touched diplomacy since. Despite the fact that I've seen it come up every time they release a patch!
Meanwhile Galciv III had an expansion pack all about Intrigue and Governments and interactions between different governments and gave you the ability to create client states and it's really fucking good. I just conquered the Kryyn, they surrendered to the Onyx Hive, and I had too many planets for my republic so I broke off the old Kryyn worlds and made the Kryyn Republic a thing. It was really cool, and immersive, and there were a lot of interesting ways it could have gone - maybe the Kryyn surrender to my other enemies, the Drengin? Maybe they didn't surrender at all and I conquer them world by world, overextending and tanking my morale? Maybe they surrender to someone who isn't on the other side of the galaxy? All this shit matters, and it can happen.
Meanwhile Stellaris allows you little customization of any states you create, doesn't allow the A.I. to spitefully fuck you by surrendering to your ally/frenemy, Governments barely matter at all, and gives the A.I. nations literally no flavor because they're always randomly generated. I like Stellaris, it's pretty and very fun in the early game before the doomstacking begins because it feels adventurous and dangerous poking around where there are big scary space monsters and aliens that might eat you, but once you've met one type of A.I. you've met it a hundred times because shit never changes. The only thing that ever prevents you from befriending everyone you meet is some of the A.I. nations are fanatics who are always at war with everyone, but then they're usually kicked into the dirt. There's no reason to want to be friends with everyone though, because there's no benefit to it. There's no reward for having allies. They don't do anything for you that just conquering their planets wouldn't do. It's purely a RP decision.
The Galciv A.I. isn't really all that smart, it just has personality. The restricted set of races means they can code specifically for that race, and then there's certain situations where the A.I. is programmed to stop looking for the best way to win and start looking for the best way to fuck the player as it loses. The Stellaris A.I. does not and cannot do that. For every nation, in every circumstance, the Stellaris A.I's sole goal is the same 4X paradigm it started with. It never goes out of it's way to screw you or another A.I., it never self-sabotages for petty reasons, it's never honestly petty at all. That's why it feels like Galciv's A.I. is better, because Galciv's A.I. is petty as fuck.
Think I recall a mod that brings in espionage and one by the name of Potent Rebellions that does a bit of that.
Post by: Radsoc on July 31, 2018, 01:59:51 am
Will also be interesting how the population mechanics works out and how they plan on stabilizing prevalence of different races, if at all. Because, if you have one that has high growth, and limited space, while others are declining, you will get quite homogeneous planets after a while.
Post by: pisskop on July 31, 2018, 11:32:07 am
Those little fuckers. I put in one of the ai mods and by 2215 I was at war with a group of pacifist traders. They assembled a fleet to match my own 1k in perhaps a year? They camped on their starbase (which they had erected, presumably to stop me from roflstomping into their backwaters) and waited for me to move off my own starbase. Tricksys
Post by: MorleyDev on July 31, 2018, 11:58:44 am
First, I noticed AIs will now actually trade for food if they are starving. Had a few runs become hilariously easy previously because all of the the AIs ran out of food and couldn't ever get out of the "starvation so lower productivity and unrest so revolts so smaller empires with less food so starvation so" spiral, so that's an interesting stopgap at least.
* Second, Unrest builds up quicker on worlds in the early game. Slaves are far more likely to mobilise or enter into armed rebellion or go on hunger strikes and tank production from that world, so you are dealing with levels of unrest up to you start going down the Harmony tree.
* Third, empires are a lot more Planet Cracker happy. For example, Sol got conquered by the Contingency, so rather than just conquering it and moving on the Militarist Fallen Empire blew up the Earth and carried on moving. I got a few notifications during the game of them cracking nearby empires, but I managed to take the Cracker out early on when I got into a war with them so never experienced them trying it on one of mine.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on July 31, 2018, 12:04:27 pm
Also, I have made lots of profits selling food. Because I am kind, I usually end up being the sole supplier of food to all of my conquered vassals.
Post by: Telgin on July 31, 2018, 12:20:11 pm
This speaking of food reminds me that I took care of my marauder empire problem. After they extorted literally my entire food stockpile from me early on, I swore revenge. After building up a 20K fleet of battleships, I flew into their systems and started systematically destroying their fleets, which was trivial. Now, the problem I ran into is that their space habitats are also armed, so my ships immediately got into battle with them and destroyed them too. Oops, I committed accidental genocide. Well, I felt bad at first, but then remembered they've been doing this to everyone nearby for a hundred years, so I committed accidental genocide in two more systems until they were completely gone.
I got an announcement from one of them threatening to burn my homes for destroying theirs, and the announcement warned that there was a fleet appearing out of hyperspace in one of my central systems without defenses, but nothing ever actually showed up there. Not sure if it was a bug or if it needed an actual fleet from them to still exist.
And it looks like I'm going to have to pay the little snail men a similar visit since they keep threatening me (and losing ships) or being bought by my rivals to raid me (and losing their ships).
Post by: Telgin on July 31, 2018, 12:45:50 pm
Speaking of which, I'm increasingly convinced that the AI knows how much you have of each resource. Maybe that's a well known fact? I've gotten a lot of convenient trade deals recently when I was about to run out of something, such as offers to trade 1,000 energy for a research agreement, right as I was about to hit 0 during an energy deficit.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on July 31, 2018, 12:53:52 pm
Post by: umiman on July 31, 2018, 12:58:10 pm
So as its population starves (which, by the way, is the only reason an AI empire will ever fragment), it has to look for external sources. So it sees you have tonnes of food, as you should. When you give it food for all of its money, this causes it to ignore the food problem even more, causing it to need even more food which makes it ask for more, etc. etc. It will never actually build more farms.
Post by: Telgin on July 31, 2018, 12:59:29 pm
I can figure out how much stuff a relatively friendly NPC empire has, because I go to "demand" and ask for more and more until they suddenly have -1000 for the offer. That means they literally do not have that much.
I was actually wondering if that was a way to cheese it to find out. Admittedly, I've only ever offered a trade deal exactly once, which was to give away a lot of food I didn't need to a neighbor who had treated me nicely in the past, in exchange for an active sensor link. They told me to shut up, so I haven't bothered to try trading since.
Post by: Persus13 on July 31, 2018, 01:05:09 pm
I usually use trade to give away a surplus resource I have for a resource I need (usually energy) to buy something, and that usually goes pretty well.I can figure out how much stuff a relatively friendly NPC empire has, because I go to "demand" and ask for more and more until they suddenly have -1000 for the offer. That means they literally do not have that much.
I was actually wondering if that was a way to cheese it to find out. Admittedly, I've only ever offered a trade deal exactly once, which was to give away a lot of food I didn't need to a neighbor who had treated me nicely in the past, in exchange for an active sensor link. They told me to shut up, so I haven't bothered to try trading since.
In regards to the AI asking for food, what's happening is (as usual) the AI doesn't know how to build enough farms somehow. I actually have no clue how this still remains an issue with the AI considering how easy it is to get food and the fact that your own sectors spam it so much.I guess the Stellaris devs read too much Dead Aid and White Man's Burden.
So as its population starves (which, by the way, is the only reason an AI empire will ever fragment), it has to look for external sources. So it sees you have tonnes of food, as you should. When you give it food for all of its money, this causes it to ignore the food problem even more, causing it to need even more food which makes it ask for more, etc. etc. It will never actually build more farms.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 31, 2018, 01:25:51 pm
Yeah same, which is probably why people are trading away food so much. Except that I don't mind keeping a food surplus, personally, since it's a nice way to slightly boost my empire (population growth) without micromanagement. It would be really nice if mineral and energy surpluses had similar minor benefits, if only to let me relax about them :PI usually use trade to give away a surplus resource I have for a resource I need (usually energy) to buy something, and that usually goes pretty well.I can figure out how much stuff a relatively friendly NPC empire has, because I go to "demand" and ask for more and more until they suddenly have -1000 for the offer. That means they literally do not have that much.
I was actually wondering if that was a way to cheese it to find out. Admittedly, I've only ever offered a trade deal exactly once, which was to give away a lot of food I didn't need to a neighbor who had treated me nicely in the past, in exchange for an active sensor link. They told me to shut up, so I haven't bothered to try trading since.
Instead of stacking 1:2 trader enclave deals, and desperately offering my bounty to other realms for research treaties or whatever. I just hate seeing it flat-out wasted.
It's usually energy, since minerals are easy to blow on ships or habitats. Policies are not enough of an energy sink ):
In theory I guess I should just go way over my supply limit until my energy budget is balanced, but bluh, and diminishing returns.
Re generously offering food for a sensor link: Sounds like an issue with their government type, I would guess. I seem to recall Honorbound Warriors for example refusing or resisting a lot of objectively good deals, due to their principles. Maybe not a bad thing, since it supports their supposed character with actual mechanics.
Post by: Telgin on July 31, 2018, 02:10:19 pm
I probably should trade for energy more often, especially mid game when it just starts to become feasible to terraform planets but where it's prohibitively expensive to do on more than one at a time, and barren worlds are usually too expensive. Energy is considered pretty cheap by the AI, from what I can tell.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on July 31, 2018, 02:40:20 pm
Empires will always give better than 1:2. End game I usually have trader deals, though, because they are low-maintenance.
Post by: BurnedToast on July 31, 2018, 02:57:35 pm
In regards to the AI asking for food, what's happening is (as usual) the AI doesn't know how to build enough farms somehow. I actually have no clue how this still remains an issue with the AI considering how easy it is to get food and the fact that your own sectors spam it so much.
So as its population starves (which, by the way, is the only reason an AI empire will ever fragment), it has to look for external sources. So it sees you have tonnes of food, as you should. When you give it food for all of its money, this causes it to ignore the food problem even more, causing it to need even more food which makes it ask for more, etc. etc. It will never actually build more farms.
From what I understand it's more complicated than that. It's not that they don't build enough farms directly, what happens is they get a spike of unrest from something - for example a fallen empire demanding a pop or whatever. Pops keep working the farms (which was specifically added to help the AI, btw) but they stop working in the mines so the AI runs out of minerals.
But since they are still working farms, pops keep growing until the current farms can't support them, at which point they start starving which increases unrest even more. But the AI has no minerals to build more farms, since the unrest shut the mines down, and since pops can't actually starve to death the problem won't fix it's self and the AI can't deal with it and enters and unrecoverable death spiral.
Side note - you can abuse this. If you gift the AI a large amount of food it won't build more farms (since it has food income), it's pop will grow, then once you stop gifting the food it quickly starts starving. It won't work every time, but there's a decent chance it will send their empire into an unrecoverable death spiral.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on July 31, 2018, 03:52:51 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on July 31, 2018, 03:58:32 pm
Aside: I don't suppose the recent changes to Civilization Beyond Earth are, at all, a proper continuation of SM: Alpha Centauri?
It's a pretty high bar.
Apologies for somewhat off-topic, but I spend time on the /vg/ /civ4g/ thread which is mostly Stellaris (http://boards.4chan.org/vg/thread/223077253).
Edit: Link added, because it's... a wild ride. Lots of unfiltered anger, heh. Yet it provides perspective.
My stance is still that this is a game with potential, which I already had quite a bit of fun with.
...CWAL for the pop rework.
Post by: Teneb on July 31, 2018, 04:14:15 pm
Post by: pisskop on July 31, 2018, 05:23:10 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on July 31, 2018, 07:01:23 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Djc7EGiWwAEr-jk.jpg:large)
Post by: Descan on August 01, 2018, 01:26:30 pm
That's entirely possible, but if I recall correctly the acceptance chance was rated above 90%. 90% isn't a guarantee, of course, but I was still surprised.That's not acceptance chance, that's how much of a loss-deal they're willing to take. 100% means they'll accept 1:1 trades (or what they think is a 1:1 trade), 50% means you need to offer them twice as much to get them to accept, and 90% means you need to offer them a liiiittle bit more to get acceptance.
If you balance the trade so that the number in the middle is a green 1, that's literally a guarantee that they'll accept the trade.
Post by: TalonisWolf on August 01, 2018, 04:33:01 pm
You know, I like the idea of having an alternative to using the hyperspace lanes that you could use... it just might drive your entire fleet insane. Or throw them 200 years into the future. Or turn your ships into space amoebas...
So you want someone to mod in a Probability Drive (as seen in the Hitchhikers Guide of the Galaxy)?
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 01, 2018, 04:54:47 pm
Closer to a Warp Drive than anything else.You know, I like the idea of having an alternative to using the hyperspace lanes that you could use... it just might drive your entire fleet insane. Or throw them 200 years into the future. Or turn your ships into space amoebas...
So you want someone to mod in a Probability Drive (as seen in the Hitchhikers Guide of the Galaxy)?
Hope your Gellar Field's working!
Post by: Trekkin on August 01, 2018, 05:07:25 pm
Alternatively, a Colossus that served as a mobile Gateway would be cool.
Post by: umiman on August 01, 2018, 06:28:49 pm
I'd be happy with a way to stop calling Hyperlane Breaching "speculative" after centuries of using it safely and start using it on military ships.Or maybe just make it have a chance to fail or something.
Alternatively, a Colossus that served as a mobile Gateway would be cool.
Right now it's safer, easier, and faster than regular hyperlanes. Hell, it's faster than warp drives over long distances.
Post by: Trekkin on August 01, 2018, 11:08:51 pm
I'd be happy with a way to stop calling Hyperlane Breaching "speculative" after centuries of using it safely and start using it on military ships.Or maybe just make it have a chance to fail or something.
Alternatively, a Colossus that served as a mobile Gateway would be cool.
Right now it's safer, easier, and faster than regular hyperlanes. Hell, it's faster than warp drives over long distances.
Ordinarily I'd agree, but it occurs to me that more special-case rules for FTL in Stellaris are probably not going to go over well right now. We've already got hyperlanes, Jump Drive, two kinds of gateways and wormholes as well as this weird science-ship-only warp-anywhere thing on top of the MIA mechanics. It does not feel at all cohesive, let alone unobtrusive enough to be the foundation for half of what we do (the other half being planet development.)
Honestly, that might be the single biggest core flaw with Stellaris that's fixable in a way that won't suck massively before it gets better: they tried to make the business of running the empire interesting instead of smooth, so all the really interesting things fade into the nonstop torrent of alerts about fleet repairs and idle science ships and nonaggression pacts between tiny empires half a galaxy away and too many planets and too many starbases and this sector over here needs more minerals and the ringworld frame is finished so you need to tell us whether or not to put the habitats on or leave it a giant waste of time and minerals and Science Officer Whoevertheheck can't decide if he should eat this weird rock he found so can you pick for him before you go do that interstellar war thing?
"Tell me everything that happens in the galaxy so I can rubber-stamp the obvious good choice personally" should not be the default way to run an interstellar empire.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on August 02, 2018, 03:43:48 am
Post by: Trekkin on August 02, 2018, 09:19:43 am
It feels like a very deliberate design choice, too, with auto exploration being gated off for the first four years. Like Wiz is afraid I might have too much fun to notice everything.
Post by: Teneb on August 02, 2018, 10:45:08 am
I just described being the only politician. It's one thing to have complicated mechanics and quite another to keelhaul the player through every step of every process every time in literally excruciating detail.Interestingly enough, I've lately been having auto-explore show up in the third or even the second batch of physics research options.
It feels like a very deliberate design choice, too, with auto exploration being gated off for the first four years. Like Wiz is afraid I might have too much fun to notice everything.
Post by: MorleyDev on August 02, 2018, 11:40:21 am
If you balance the trade so that the number in the middle is a green 1, that's literally a guarantee that they'll accept the trade.
I've had them reject a 1 before, actually. Not sure if that's due to it being chance based, or just their economical situation changed just enough to put it down to 0 in the game time between sending the request and them deciding whether to accept it or not though.
I think Experimental Subspace Navigation exists to solve a specific design problem: Getting a random event that requires a science ship, and no science ship close enough.
Also it's the "Voyager" idea of a space ship making an experimental hop and getting lost. I'd almost like it to have a chance to break after you use it (so you need to go to a spaceport to get it fixed), but enable it so you can use it to go to unexplored star systems. A "It's unreliable and too small to work on a military ship, and if you use it you may get stranded half-way across the galaxy" kind of tech.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on August 02, 2018, 12:22:41 pm
Post by: Trekkin on August 02, 2018, 12:46:39 pm
I think Experimental Subspace Navigation exists to solve a specific design problem: Getting a random event that requires a science ship, and no science ship close enough.
Also it's the "Voyager" idea of a space ship making an experimental hop and getting lost. I'd almost like it to have a chance to break after you use it (so you need to go to a spaceport to get it fixed), but enable it so you can use it to go to unexplored star systems. A "It's unreliable and too small to work on a military ship, and if you use it you may get stranded half-way across the galaxy" kind of tech.
Sure, but it's just another special case for the ships that are not ships. Civilian ships can't be manually upgraded, can't be in fleets, and now have odd FTL options. What would be so wrong about just making science and construction sections as corvette bows or whatever, letting scientists occupy admiral slots and just having all ships use the same mechanics?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 02, 2018, 12:50:14 pm
The point of Emergency Subspace FTL is to allow science ships to effectively ignore borders and other hazards (like space monsters or whatever) and still explore the galaxy, meaning that if you eventually find yourself boxed in by hazards or other borders it won't be impossible to continue exploring.
Allowing military ships to do the same would remove half the point of border/hyperlane mechanics. Science ships can do it because it allows them to explore more effectively and because they don't have weapons.
Post by: MorleyDev on August 02, 2018, 02:08:43 pm
Could make Fallen Empires *terrifying* if the AI could do it because they could teleport behind you, wait for the recharge penalty to wear off and attack where your weakest defences are.
...okay, yeah I'm convinced: That'd be awesome!
As an aside, fun little sandbox play I've done: No other empires except fallen ones and marauders, but 5x the primitive civs. You basically another fallen empire for the rest of the galaxy, will you protect and nurture, or conquer and destroy? Combine mods that let you do things like engineer life for extra spice...
Post by: MorleyDev on August 02, 2018, 07:30:02 pm
Could make an interesting mod if possible, at least, even though I don't know if it'd actually balance xD
Post by: Trekkin on August 03, 2018, 03:13:01 pm
EDIT: Spelling.
Post by: pisskop on August 03, 2018, 03:34:56 pm
the surplus exists, its free monies. stockpile beef jerky, sell to the humies
Post by: Trekkin on August 03, 2018, 04:37:38 pm
Thats actually dumb.
the surplus exists, its free monies. stockpile beef jerky, sell to the humies
That is one of two arguments I've found in support of machine empires not trading food: that since they don't need it, it would be unbalancing to let them trade it. I have to say it doesn't seem like a particularly strong argument. Machine pops working farms are consuming minerals and energy to produce something useless; it is difficult to see how trading it away for minerals and energy will ever be as useful as just having them make minerals and energy in the first place.
The other argument I've seen is that the AI can't handle cases where it does not need a resource. It would seem to me that it'd be better to special-case the AI's commodity valuation function so empires won't buy any (non-strategic) resource for which their current and projected consumption is 0.
Post by: Nelia Hawk on August 04, 2018, 01:32:30 am
Post by: Trekkin on August 04, 2018, 01:34:48 am
arent there some robot empires that have humans as "pets" or are like making sure they are doing well? (some civic(?) that starts them with a 2nd race) i would guess them can get food for their non machine pops and trade it?
Rogue Servitors, yes. I mentioned them above; while they can make and store food, they cannot trade it.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on August 04, 2018, 04:27:19 am
Post by: Telgin on August 06, 2018, 11:29:27 pm
In update news, it looks like strongholds will now produce soldier jobs, which are tied to naval cap. I'm really happy to see that change, since it gives a reason to build strongholds now. I'm also really curious to see how starbase anchorages get rebalanced as a result, and how this will impact army recruitment.
Speaking of armies, I'm currently a little puzzled on some war mechanics. I got tired of the AI never declaring war on me, so I finally joined a federation associate (I think they're an associate anyway...) in declaring war on a driven assimilator, which from what I gather put us in a total war situation. If I understand that right, any systems I take are mine for good, even without claims, right?
The hangup I have is the planet I just took from the robots. The robot population on the planet are all being disassembled now, and it looks like the planet was fully turned over to me. However, this didn't add any occupation value to the enemy's war exhaustion, which I'm guessing is because the planet is no longer theirs and technically not occupied?
I'm also unsure of how I'm supposed to get pops on the planet. I've never actually used resettlement before, but do I need to do that to get someone on the planet? Or wait for migration?
Post by: Criptfeind on August 07, 2018, 01:49:26 am
You're right about why you're not getting occupation value. If I recall correctly they should have still gotten a chunk of war exhaustion that's not from occupation when they lost the planet, but maybe that's been changed or I've forgotten, it's been a little bit since I was in a genocidal war.
Yeah, you need to resettle if you want to actually keep a planet where you're purging all the population. You do it by going to the planet (either the one you want to resettle too or from) and there should be a button on one of it's screens for it, it's a click and drag interface, pretty straight forward, should be easy enough. A pain in the ass to do on a mass scale though. If you don't resettle and you're purging all the pops, unless a pop migrates to the planet you'll eventually kill all the population on the planet, and with no one living there it will revert to an uncolonized planet.
Post by: MorleyDev on August 07, 2018, 06:47:33 am
Planet Crackers, on the other hand, I'm of the opinion exist solely so you can declare war on a Religious Fallen Empire in style.
I'm really happy to see that change, since it gives a reason to build strongholds now.
If you're going tall, chokepoints and Fortress Worlds (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBxdkxXGmms) are neat. Recently had a run where I took over the L-Cluster and built a Ring World at the L-Gate with every ring segment having only fortresses. Then started building all the other megastructures inside the L-Cluster.
I'd already more-or-less won at that point, so was just waiting for the end-game crisis to trigger and seeing how insane I could make that L-Cluster.
Post by: Telgin on August 07, 2018, 08:08:15 am
So far, I've had exactly one planet be invaded since I started playing, which was the Contingency after it spawned in the next system over. The planet would have had to have been half strongholds to repel that invasion force... and of course the Contingency can pop up anywhere so you can't really plan for it.
You're right about why you're not getting occupation value. If I recall correctly they should have still gotten a chunk of war exhaustion that's not from occupation when they lost the planet, but maybe that's been changed or I've forgotten, it's been a little bit since I was in a genocidal war.
It must have changed. They have about 35% war exhaustion, of which about 25% was from me destroying their fleets, and the rest to attrition. I don't think it jumped up at all when I took the planet.
Quote
Yeah, you need to resettle if you want to actually keep a planet where you're purging all the population. You do it by going to the planet (either the one you want to resettle too or from) and there should be a button on one of it's screens for it, it's a click and drag interface, pretty straight forward, should be easy enough. A pain in the ass to do on a mass scale though. If you don't resettle and you're purging all the pops, unless a pop migrates to the planet you'll eventually kill all the population on the planet, and with no one living there it will revert to an uncolonized planet.
Interesting. Taking the planet put me over my core world limit, so I'm tempted to let it revert for the moment until I get this was sorted out. I'm guessing I'll end up taking another couple of planets too by the time they hit 100% war exhaustion, so I'll probably need to put them all in a sector.
Post by: Telgin on August 07, 2018, 09:27:56 am
It's probably going to be months before we get to play it though, unfortunately.
Post by: Radsoc on August 07, 2018, 09:31:49 am
Also, has anyone else got that annoying point where they don't want to play because the next update looks good?
Yes, but am trying to deal with the backlog in the meantime. Can't play Crusader Kings 2, EU4 or Rimworld for that reason either.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 07, 2018, 09:32:02 am
Probably because it's not just an addition of cool new features, but a rework. So any more time spent with the current planet system will feel particularly wasted (and it already feels exceptionally grindy).
It's almost like those CK2 dev diaries where they improve/streamline the GUI... They bizarrely ruin the existing GUI for me :P
Post by: ChairmanPoo on August 07, 2018, 09:53:15 am
Ok, IŽm the same. Barring EU4, that is, but IŽm locked out of CK2, Stellaris, and Rimworld for same reason.Also, has anyone else got that annoying point where they don't want to play because the next update looks good?
Yes, but am trying to deal with the backlog in the meantime. Can't play Crusader Kings 2, EU4 or Rimworld for that reason either.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on August 07, 2018, 11:38:54 am
more martin stuff
dev diaries restart this week apparently
Post by: Teneb on August 07, 2018, 11:44:47 am
Post by: Radsoc on August 07, 2018, 11:48:04 am
Post by: MorleyDev on August 07, 2018, 12:29:42 pm
If I thought I'd ever be in a defensive war with the AI I'd probably build some strongholds for that purpose, but so far that doesn't seem likely to happen. :)
You have better luck than me. I almost always seem to spawn right next to either a Fanatic Purifier or a Determined Exterminator. Maybe "Random" empire placement just means "cruel" xD
Post by: Telgin on August 07, 2018, 12:54:44 pm
I'm pretty sure I just haven't seen war for that reason. I've had a fair few other empires hate my guts, but since I was always equivalent or better, they never tried to fight me. I haven't yet played on anything harder than Captain level difficulty, so that's probably the main culprit. If the AI were simply smarter at higher difficulties instead of just getting massive boosts to everything, I'd be more inclined to play at higher difficulties.
It's actually pretty funny when an empire is pathetic compared to me, but they keep sending insults, even when I'm bordering them. I can't tell what they hope to accomplish, so I'm just guessing the AI is literally programmed to randomly insult anyone they dislike, no matter their strength.
Post by: Vivalas on August 07, 2018, 01:54:18 pm
Also, has anyone else got that annoying point where they don't want to play because the next update looks good?
Yes, but am trying to deal with the backlog in the meantime. Can't play Crusader Kings 2, EU4 or Rimworld for that reason either.
Eh, Rimworld 1.0 just looks like a few random QOL things that most mods already have, and features that most mods already have, unless I missed something in the notes. My 50+ mod B18 vanilla+ experience seems a lot more interesting.
As for Stellaris, my current Imperium of Man (think more like Empire from star wars, not WH40K) has had a lot of interesting flavor stuff I haven't seen before, and has created more roleplay / story than Aurora 4x at this point, and I almost have a whole game universe of stuff already just 60 years in.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on August 07, 2018, 05:35:05 pm
To the east, 2 pacifist empires. To the west, an adv start bandit kingdom, an adv start assimilators, and 3 fanatic purifiers.
Post by: Cruxador on August 08, 2018, 07:32:19 pm
I've got it bad, this time. I'm excited to play Stellaris again, but only the upcoming version ):<You must be real sensitive to thid kind of thing then, because aside from the initial transition from CK1, the GUI changes have been super minor and mostly revolving around me features.
Probably because it's not just an addition of cool new features, but a rework. So any more time spent with the current planet system will feel particularly wasted (and it already feels exceptionally grindy).
It's almost like those CK2 dev diaries where they improve/streamline the GUI... They bizarrely ruin the existing GUI for me :P
Post by: pisskop on August 08, 2018, 09:41:29 pm
Now we pay 50 Harry Potter Scars to buy an eighth of a spike-dog removal squad.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on August 09, 2018, 06:53:09 am
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-120-new-economy-system.1114048/
2.2 is leguin and the release date is still "far away"
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 09, 2018, 08:15:44 am
Genuine good complexity that applies throughout the whole game?
Im so happy. Are we sure this is for Stellaris and not some other space game?
Post by: Mephansteras on August 09, 2018, 09:32:30 am
Post by: Telgin on August 09, 2018, 09:59:18 am
Relatedly, I wonder how buggy it will be when it comes out. There are some worrying complaints about 2.1.2 being very buggy, and that it had all of those bugs for weeks while the patch was in beta without Paradox doing anything to fix them.
I'm wondering now if I'm a victim of one of those bugs, but maybe I'm just dumb. I've got a faction right now that's very unhappy because I'm not allowing all species to migrate to my core worlds... but my policies do allow that. I can't figure out why the faction thinks otherwise.
Post by: pisskop on August 09, 2018, 11:33:12 am
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on August 09, 2018, 12:06:05 pm
Post by: Telgin on August 09, 2018, 12:33:08 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 09, 2018, 03:10:47 pm
On the far left in that last screenshot, anyone got any ideas for what the 0/0 population icon and 0/0 energy icon are for? I don't recall them existing before now.probably unfinished UI stuff
Post by: Descan on August 09, 2018, 03:11:07 pm
Post by: Telgin on August 09, 2018, 03:18:16 pm
The population icon is more mysterious. The only guesses I have are that it's got something to do with migration or general population growth or decline.
Post by: Cruxador on August 09, 2018, 06:56:35 pm
Oh my god.Don't get your hopes up too soon, the only gameplay information revealed is that you will need "advanced resources" from specific planets or from manufacturing them. Even assuming the balance is such that they're consistently worth using, the floor for possible gameplay improvement is pretty low.
Genuine good complexity that applies throughout the whole game?
Im so happy. Are we sure this is for Stellaris and not some other space game?
Post by: ZeroGravitas on August 10, 2018, 06:52:25 am
Oh my god.Don't get your hopes up too soon, the only gameplay information revealed is that you will need "advanced resources" from specific planets or from manufacturing them. Even assuming the balance is such that they're consistently worth using, the floor for possible gameplay improvement is pretty low.
Genuine good complexity that applies throughout the whole game?
Im so happy. Are we sure this is for Stellaris and not some other space game?
agreed... i'm not sure this will necessarily be good, though it could be
Post by: Telgin on August 10, 2018, 08:11:37 am
Which is okay, I think. Anything more complex than that would probably be needlessly tedious and irritating. If ships took 5 resources to build and you were only likely to have 3 or so yourself and always had to buy more, that would be annoying. It would be nice if some specialized components did require special resources you can't get otherwise, like dark matter tech requiring stockpiled dark matter or neutronium armor requiring stockpiled neutronium, but it sounds like the jury is still out at Paradox on if that's how it's going to work.
Shifting gears a bit, does the crisis strength impact how powerful awakened empire fleets are during a war in heaven? I actually got one of those last night, finally getting my wish to be in a defensive war and with painful results. I wasn't afraid at first, since the fleets parked in fallen empire systems usually hover in the 50-60K range and I could easily beat those if I pooled my fleets, but the fleets that came knocking were in the 120-160K range, which were substantially harder to repel and caused massive damage before I drove them off. Side note: I hate worm holes now.
Also, does the war in heaven count as the end game crisis, or am I still going to get the Contingency (there is more than exactly 1 robot in the galaxy, so it will be the Contingency).
Post by: Flying Dice on August 10, 2018, 08:15:57 am
As others have said, the actual update looks shallow, but the increased access and standardization for modders could be massive.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on August 10, 2018, 08:24:34 am
it'll be a good starting point for something better, anyway. tiles were so bad precisely because there wasn't much to do with them that required them to be tiles.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 10, 2018, 08:55:11 am
Also, does the war in heaven count as the end game crisis, or am I still going to get the Contingency (there is more than exactly 1 robot in the galaxy, so it will be the Contingency).It doesn't count as the crisis, no.
Post by: Telgin on August 10, 2018, 09:25:57 am
Post by: Cruxador on August 10, 2018, 10:44:07 am
Post by: Telgin on August 10, 2018, 11:13:37 am
I'm guessing alloys will be needed for all ships, but then it's likely that you'll be able to produce them straight from minerals without any rare resources needed.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on August 10, 2018, 01:08:26 pm
Post by: Draignean on August 10, 2018, 01:34:18 pm
what's more interesting is that they've opened things up enough that we can have things like ships built with food and other non-humanoid economics
This is what I'm excited for. More unique resource systems also allows for the prospect of actual divergent technological evolution, with species pursuing the most cost effective paths available to their resource situation instead of everyone muddling into the same tech options regardless of background. Neutronium needlers! Baryonic deracinators! Dark matter mortars! Crystalline inertial disruptors!
You'd actually have the Indus Space River Valley civilizations, getting a few worlds with rich core resources and blooming in technology while their friends struggle with complex elemental synthesis just to get a handful of the strange matter that the ISPRV civilizations accidentally found in the heart of dying star!
I'm actually kind of stoked as for what this could do for research.
Post by: Radsoc on August 10, 2018, 01:49:28 pm
It's always possible to make up arbitrary numbers for costs, but to me minerals would be the bulk metal and materials required to build something of mass, basically a fixed cost with some material waste based on tech level. Energy is what should be required to put the materials/mass together into its finished state, which also should be at a variable cost depending on tech level along the lines of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale
Then naturally rare materials like strategic resources should be required for whatever components are needed within the lore (or be replacable by large amounts of energy to produce them). Not sure about how food would enter the picture, unless the ship has to grow organically and pure energy can't be used, or the workers are paid in natura.
I think there is some event where you discover crystals, and it gives you energy. I think that's an inconsistency. Energy is translatable but not equal to credits (even if you could derive some kind of currency from it). Here gold, crystals etc should be counted as a "mineral" for instance, not energy.
Post by: Trekkin on August 10, 2018, 04:47:44 pm
Energy is what should be required to put the materials/mass together into its finished state, which also should be at a variable cost depending on tech level along the lines of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale
I'm curious how you intend to scale energy costs "along the lines of" a scale of energy production.
I'm not being snarky here; there's probably a really good way to handle being able to trivialize energy costs as a matter of raw production at the planetary scale through the building of Dyson spheres (in the Stellaris case) and reduce it to a purely logistical problem, but it has to be done carefully to prevent it feeling like just having lots of energy on hand makes all your devices more efficient, which is what it would be mathematically.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on August 10, 2018, 06:02:51 pm
Post by: Trekkin on August 11, 2018, 01:02:10 am
If we're cinematic enough for solid Dyson shells, we can presumably dock battery freighters to them.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on August 11, 2018, 01:45:54 am
Alternatively, it's so horrifyingly lossy that it's only worth 1000 Energy as opposed to whatever exponential we're bandying about this week.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is the case.
Post by: Radsoc on August 11, 2018, 04:18:17 am
Energy is what should be required to put the materials/mass together into its finished state, which also should be at a variable cost depending on tech level along the lines of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale
I'm curious how you intend to scale energy costs "along the lines of" a scale of energy production.
I'm not being snarky here; there's probably a really good way to handle being able to trivialize energy costs as a matter of raw production at the planetary scale through the building of Dyson spheres (in the Stellaris case) and reduce it to a purely logistical problem, but it has to be done carefully to prevent it feeling like just having lots of energy on hand makes all your devices more efficient, which is what it would be mathematically.
To set the scale of energy production (or tech progress) to correlate with efficiency. With lower tech you would extract less work from the energy produced and so on. That would add progression to project sizes. In the beginning energy would more scarce, make it take long time to build big ships and so on. And if you make energy into a local resource, you would have star systems or civs only capable of producing frigates within reasonable time frames, unless at high tech.
Post by: Damiac on August 12, 2018, 11:39:02 am
Post by: Trekkin on August 12, 2018, 02:55:28 pm
Energy is what should be required to put the materials/mass together into its finished state, which also should be at a variable cost depending on tech level along the lines of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale
I'm curious how you intend to scale energy costs "along the lines of" a scale of energy production.
I'm not being snarky here; there's probably a really good way to handle being able to trivialize energy costs as a matter of raw production at the planetary scale through the building of Dyson spheres (in the Stellaris case) and reduce it to a purely logistical problem, but it has to be done carefully to prevent it feeling like just having lots of energy on hand makes all your devices more efficient, which is what it would be mathematically.
To set the scale of energy production (or tech progress) to correlate with efficiency. With lower tech you would extract less work from the energy produced and so on. That would add progression to project sizes. In the beginning energy would more scarce, make it take long time to build big ships and so on. And if you make energy into a local resource, you would have star systems or civs only capable of producing frigates within reasonable time frames, unless at high tech.
Okay. That's not what the Kardashev scale is meant to quantify, thus my confusion.
Since energy logistics is an N2 problem (for N sources/sinks) with people inevitably asking why they can't/have to control where the energy of every star goes, I had thought you were arguing for some kind of Civ-style ages system mapped to the Kardashev scale, which I could actually see working really well; if I'm harvesting the energy output of entire stars, I really shouldn't need to worry about how much energy I'm consuming to keep the lights running in a hydroponics bay somewhere. It's moot at those scales for a game this cinematic.
We could, for example, have technologies to build structures that transition the empire to planetary- and stellar-scale structural ages, perhaps with the planetary structure zeroing energy costs for everything in its system and the stellar structure doing so for everything in the empire, excepting the costs of building.maintaining planetary- and stellar-scale structures, respectively. Change the color of the energy icon to indicate what age we're in and it won't even need much of a UI change.
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 12, 2018, 06:51:40 pm
Post by: pisskop on August 13, 2018, 11:37:20 am
in structure, not in actually having magic
Post by: Telgin on August 13, 2018, 01:12:44 pm
However, those would have very easily not been easy victories if the awakened empires were much smarter. They frequently left their powerful fleets parked in remote systems instead of sending them to deal with my fleets, or using them to harass me by taking border systems. By the end of the war, I was just jumping fleets into those systems and wiping their fleets out piecemeal to get enough war exhaustion to get a status quo peace.
On the other hand, I'm kind of glad they are dumb because there was some serious BS in one of those saves. An awakened empire fleet was flying through my space and was in a system with one of my planets when the war in heaven triggered. Said fleet immediately flew over and started bombing the planet, and would have easily taken it if an army fleet had been with it at the time. Or, honestly, if the fleet had committed to what it was doing at all, since after a year or so of bombing my planet it just left. I was under the impression that fleets are supposed to go MIA if they're in hostile territory when you declare war, but I guess not.
Guess I should start closing my borders by default from now on. Or at least to awakened empires.
Unrelated to the above, but the game definitely seems buggier after 2.1.2. I currently have a scientist that can be assigned to multiple science ships or research positions. I also just watched an awakened empire's fleet slowly drift across a solar system, cycling between trying to use jump drives to get to a system and just flying there the old fashioned way. After the fleet finally made it to the hyperlane point, it flew over to the next system and then finally used its jump drive to jump to where it wanted to go in the first place.
Post by: Trekkin on August 13, 2018, 02:49:43 pm
Post by: Telgin on August 13, 2018, 03:17:54 pm
Then again, it doesn't seem to take much into account when sending fleets around. I just watched the AI send some fleets through a system with a stellartie devourer which they were not prepared for, with predictable results.
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 13, 2018, 03:20:54 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on August 13, 2018, 03:28:55 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 13, 2018, 05:03:55 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on August 13, 2018, 05:05:33 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 13, 2018, 05:14:18 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 13, 2018, 05:19:17 pm
I haven't seen any particularly suspicious behavior in Stellaris, but I'd be pretty surprised if the AI had any limitations on what it can see on the map. It would significantly complicate the AI for little perceived benefit, so I doubt they implemented it. The AI presumably does at least ignore any empire it hasn't contacted yet, but probably not much more than that.One of the wonkier AI quirks I've found is that the crises do not work unless they can path to a player if there is a player in game
Then again, it doesn't seem to take much into account when sending fleets around. I just watched the AI send some fleets through a system with a stellartie devourer which they were not prepared for, with predictable results.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on August 13, 2018, 05:49:40 pm
I haven't seen any particularly suspicious behavior in Stellaris, but I'd be pretty surprised if the AI had any limitations on what it can see on the map. It would significantly complicate the AI for little perceived benefit, so I doubt they implemented it. The AI presumably does at least ignore any empire it hasn't contacted yet, but probably not much more than that.One of the wonkier AI quirks I've found is that the crises do not work unless they can path to a player if there is a player in game
Then again, it doesn't seem to take much into account when sending fleets around. I just watched the AI send some fleets through a system with a stellartie devourer which they were not prepared for, with predictable results.
My own fleets do that. Thankfully they finally implemented the "restrict system" button.
Post by: Telgin on August 13, 2018, 06:21:02 pm
One of the wonkier AI quirks I've found is that the crises do not work unless they can path to a player if there is a player in game
Interesting, and I'm curious how it could even be arranged that they couldn't path to a player. I wonder if that's related to the "crisis not expanding" bug that's supposed to be fixed in the next minor version.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on August 13, 2018, 07:32:10 pm
Post by: Draignean on August 13, 2018, 09:15:37 pm
Good point. It's more an issue with the fleet path finder than anything, although I do wonder how much the AI micromanages paths. I know it'll try to dodge choke point stations, which had the humorous effect of sending a marauder fleeting halfway around the galaxy on a two year quest to bypass my stations once. To their credit, they did bypass my stations... and required an inordinate amount of time and jump drives to deal with as a consequence.One of the wonkier AI quirks I've found is that the crises do not work unless they can path to a player if there is a player in game
Interesting, and I'm curious how it could even be arranged that they couldn't path to a player. I wonder if that's related to the "crisis not expanding" bug that's supposed to be fixed in the next minor version.
FTL-anchors. They stop Pathfinding past themselves. If there is no path that isn't blocked at some point by a fortress or a station with an FTL inhibitor, the Crisis just throws up its hands. I generally play 0.75 hyperlane density, and that makes it occur nearly every time if you build tall.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on August 15, 2018, 07:45:46 pm
ton of info in this thread regarding housing, pop caps, slaves/robots, etc and a few screenshots
basically robots/slaves will fill whatever jobs you have available like mining/farming/etc, then take the "servant" job, which produces amenities etc. they won't use much "housing", which is a soft cap on planet's population. you can exceed it but it causes "overcrowding."
Post by: Telgin on August 15, 2018, 10:30:42 pm
The changes to robots teased so far look really cool though.
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 16, 2018, 03:48:23 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on August 16, 2018, 07:46:37 am
I believe there's going to be another dev diary tomorrow too, and I'm excited to see some more detailed explanations on the new planetary management.
yep, it's up:
Quote from: Wiz, post: 24570444, member: 87299
Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today, we're going to start talking about the Planetary Rework coming in the 2.2 'Le Guin' update - the complete redesign of the planetary management system and replacement of planetary tiles. This is going to be a really big topic, so we're spreading it out across four dev diaries, with today's dev diary being about Deposits, Buildings and Districts. Please bear in mind that everything shown is in an early stage of development, and there will be rough-looking interfaces, placeholder art, non final numbers and all those things that people assume are final and complain about anyway no matter how many of these disclaimers I write. :p
Planetary Rework
Before I start going into details on the actual rework, I just wanted to briefly talk about the reasons and goals that are behind this massive rework, and why we're removing tiles and building a new system instead of iterating on the existing systems. For me, getting away from the constraints of tiles has been my single most desired long-term goal for the game. It's not that I think the tile system is inherently a bad system - it works well to visualize your pops and buildings and for the early game it works well enough in giving the player some interesting economic management decisions. However, the tile system is also very constrictive, in a way I feel is detrimental to the very core concepts of Stellaris. The hard limitation of one pop and one building per tile, as well as the hard limitation of 25 tiles/pops/buildings to a planet, it severely limits the kind of societies and planets that we can present in the game.
Do we want to make city-planets, with enormous numbers of pops concentrated onto a single world? Not possible. Do we want to have a fully automated post-scarcity empire where robots do all the actual work? Can't be done without losing out on valuable building space. Sure, we could fundamentally alter the tile system in a such a way to allow these, by for example making it so each tile could support several sub-tiles with additional pops and buildings, but by doing this we will inevitably lose the easy visual presentation that makes the system attractive to begin with, and even then we would continue to be held back by the limit of one pop per building. In other words, we'd end up with something that superficially might resemble the old tile system but offers none of its main advantages and continues to be held back by most of its drawbacks.
When designing the new planetary management system we set out a number of design goals:
- The new system should be able to simulate a wide variety of different societies, to build on the roleplaying and diversity in play-throughs that is such a fundamental part of the Stellaris experience
- The new system needed to offer more interesting choices about how to develop your planets, while simultaneously reducing the amount of uninteresting micromanagement such as mass-upgrading buildings
- The new system should make your planets feel like places where Pops actually live their lives, as opposed to just being resource gathering hubs
- The new system had to be extremely moddable, to make it easier both for us and modders to create new types of empires and playstyles
We believe that this new system that we have created will not only vastly improve many of the features in the game that we couldn't get working properly with the tile system, but together with the resource rework discussed in the last dev diary will also make it possible for us to create truly weird and alien societies that play entirely differently from anything the game currently has to offer, or would ever have to offer if we had remained constrained by the tile system.
Deposits
Under the old tile system, deposits were simply clumps of resources placed on a tile, which would be gathered by a pop and determined what kind of buildings were most efficient to place there. Under the new system, deposits are more akin to planetary terrain and features. Every habitable planet will have a (semi-randomized) number of deposits, with larger planets usually having more deposits. Deposits represent areas on the planet that can be economically exploited, and most commonly increase the number of a particular District (more on this below) that can be build on the planet. For example, a Fertile Lands deposit represents various regions of fertile farmland, and increases the number of Agriculture Districts that can be built on the planet, and thus its potential Food output.
(Note: All deposit pictures shown here are placeholders, there will be new art for them that isn't done yet)
Not all Deposits affect Districts however - some (such as Crystalline Caverns or Betharian Fields) are rare deposits that allow for the construction of special Buildings (more on this below) on the planet, while others yet may simply provide a passive benefit to the planet, such as a spectacularly beautiful wilderness area that increases happiness for Pops living on the planet. Deposits can have Deposit Blockers that work in a similar way to the Tile Blockers of old, cancelling out the benefits of the Deposit until the Blocker is removed through the expenditure of time and resources. A planet can have multiples of the same Deposit, and there is no hard limit to the number of Deposits that a planet can hold (though there is a cap to how many will be generated under normal circumstances). The types of Deposits that can show up on a planet is affected by the planet class, so where an Ocean World might get its Agriculture from Kelp Forests, an Arctic World would have Fungal Caverns instead.
Districts
Districts are at at the core of how planets are developed in the Le Guin update. Districts represent large areas of development on the planet dedicated towards housing or resource gathering. For most empires, there are four basic types of Districts: City Districts, Mining Districts, Generator Districts and Agriculture Districts. There are exceptions to this (such as Hive Minds having Hive Districts) but more on this in a later DD. The total number of districts you can build on a planet is equal to its size, so a size 16 planet can support 16 districts in any combination of the types available to you. Additionally, the resource-producing districts (Mining, Generator and Agriculture) are further constrained by the Deposits on the planet, so a planet might only be able to support a maximum of 8 Mining Districts due to there simply not being any further opportunities for mining on the planet. City Districts are never limited by the deposits on the planet, so you can choose to forego a planet's natural resources and blanket it entirely in urban development if you so choose.
The effects of each District is as follows:There will be more details on most of the concepts mentioned above coming in the other dev diaries. For now, suffice to say that the way you develop your planets with Districts will shape that planet's role in your empire - a heavily urbanized planet will be densely populated, supporting numerous Buildings and specialist Pop Jobs such as Researchers and providing Trade Value for your empire's trade routes (more on this in a future DD), but at the expense of not being able to produce much of the raw resources that are needed to fuel your empire's growth and manufacturing capacity.
- City District: Provides a large amount of Housing for Pops, Infrastructure for Buildings and Clerk Jobs that produce Trade Value and Luxury Goods
- Mining District: Provides a small amount of Housing/Infrastructure and Mining Jobs that produce Minerals
- Agriculture District: Provides a small amount of Housing/Infrastructure and Farming Jobs that produce Food
- Generator District: Provides a small amount of Housing/Infrastructure and Technician Jobs that produce Energy Credits
A planet's Deposits and Planetary Modifiers may influence this decision - a large planet with High Quality Minerals and numerous Mining Deposits will certainly make for a lucrative mining world, but what if it also sits in a perfect spot to make a heavily urbanized trade hub? No longer are choices regarding planets simply limited to 'Where do I place the capital for the best adjacency bonuses?' and 'Should I follow the tile resource or not?' but will be fundamental choices that create diverse and distinct planets that each have their own role to fill in your empire.
Buildings
In the Le Guin update, Buildings are specialized Facilities that provide a variety of Jobs and Resources that are not suitable to large-scale resource gathering. For example, instead of having your scientists working in a Physics Lab on a Physics Deposit (whatever that is supposed to be...) you now instead construct a Research Labs building (representing not a single laboratory but rather an allocation of resources towards the sciences across the planet) which provides a number of Pop Researcher Jobs that conduct research for your empire. Buildings are limited by the planet's Infrastructure, with one building 'slot' being unlocked for each 10 Infrastructure on the planet. Some Buildings are also limited in the number you can build on a planet, while others can be built in multiples (for example, a planet can only support a single Autotchton Monument, while you can have as many Alloy Foundries as the slots allow). Buildings can still be upgraded to more advanced versions, but generally there will be far fewer upgrades to do and those upgrades will often require an investment of rare and expensive resources, so it's more of an active choice than something you simply have to click your way through after unlocking a tech.
Infrastructure comes primarily from constructing Districts, with City Districts giving much more Infrastructure than resource gathering districts do (6 as opposed to 2 in the current internal build, though non final numbers and all that). In addition to unlocking additional Building slots, a higher Infrastructure level also makes some Buildings more efficient, as the number of jobs they provide is fully or partially determined by the planet's Infrastructure level. For example, in the current internal build, Research Labs and Alloy Foundries both have the number of jobs they provide determined by the infrastructure level, meaning that concentrating your research and manufacturing to your heavily urbanized planets is generally more efficient than trying to turn your agri-worlds into science hubs. In addition to Buildings that provide resource-producing Jobs, there is also a wide variety of buildings that provide for the material and social needs of your Pops, such as Luxury Housing for your upper class Pops, Entertainment Buildings to make your populace happy and Law Enforcement to quell unrest and crime. Densely populated planets tend to require more such buildings, as the need for Housing and Amenities scales upwards with Pops and Infrastructure.
Whew, that was a lot of words. Still, we're only just getting started on the Planetary Rework and next week we'll continue talking about it, on the topic of Stratas, Pop Jobs, Housing and Migration.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-121-planetary-rework-part-1-of-4.1115043/
Post by: Telgin on August 16, 2018, 10:45:23 am
Looks like trade hubs and routes are confirmed too, which should be a very welcome addition to the game.
I'm only disappointed so far that they only covered a quarter of the planetary management changes in this dev diary.
Post by: Descan on August 16, 2018, 10:51:54 am
Post by: Telgin on August 16, 2018, 10:54:24 am
I've managed to keep myself entertained thus far by just managing expansion and development of planets through the tile system clickfest, but having meaningful goals to build toward other than just increasing naval capacity and filling said capacity with ships will be most welcome.
Post by: Trekkin on August 16, 2018, 11:29:25 am
It looks like it might open some more economic playstyles than the "Everything is geared toward military" style that Stellaris basically is now. Being able to achieve hegemony over the galaxy via economy rather than pewpewlazors would be nice. It would need a lot more to it than this, but it's a step in that direction.
At the very least, a more complex economy will allow for more random events and things, which would be nice; I don't mind an overwhelming navy being necessary to survive and even the only way to win, but it'd be nice if the economic and developmental parts of the game were not so blatantly a spreadsheet intended to reliably fuel the war machine. Even megastructures are largely without any interesting uncertainty, especially the vanilla ones.
Stellaris is soft enough science fiction for the weird emergent properties of 4X-style cultural hegemony to be technobabbled over, and it would be nice to see either that or some form of espionage-driven subversion like we can currently do to primitive empires.
Post by: Grek on August 17, 2018, 02:08:08 pm
Post by: Telgin on August 17, 2018, 02:38:49 pm
Wiz mentioned that most of the upgrades that are in the game now will be strategic choices that may take advanced resources. Pure speculation but, for example, upgrading science labs to physics labs may take dark matter in addition to minerals.
I'm actually really curious just how rare these rare materials will be. If they come at a relatively constant rate (say, every black hole can be mined for a small amount of dark matter per month) then it may just be a waiting game instead of a real strategic choice. But we'll have to wait and see what is revealed over the next few weeks.
Post by: Cruxador on August 17, 2018, 03:31:45 pm
It sounds like there will still be upgrades, but they'll be much fewer and farther between. Hopefully no more of the going back to a planet at 5 pops to upgrade the shelter to a planetary administration so you can build advanced buildings busywork, at least.Avoiding the busy work was one of the major stated goals of the rework. I think it's safe to expect that things like that are taken care of.
Quote
I'm actually really curious just how rare these rare materials will be. If they come at a relatively constant rate (say, every black hole can be mined for a small amount of dark matter per month) then it may just be a waiting game instead of a real strategic choice. But we'll have to wait and see what is revealed over the next few weeks.All evidence so far points to them being exactly what you hope they're not. Still, constantly generated resources do make for adequate gating mechanics in idle games like kittensgame and realm grinder. And Paradox games are fundamentally about waiting anyway, which is sort of fine as long as things are going on in the world that make your time a limited resource too - there's still tradeoff.
Post by: Sartain on August 18, 2018, 02:17:36 am
With PDX games, it's less that time's a limited resource as pausing is prevalent and encouraged. What you want, really, is enough stuff going on that you don't have large "fallow" moments.
Stellaris seems to have a lot more focus on "balance" and multiplayer than other PDX titles, so less pausing
Post by: Radsoc on August 18, 2018, 06:35:02 am
https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/1030739504011911168
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dk320uoXgAAxL_P.jpg)
https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/1030751330065936384?s=20
Some kind of idealist form of socialism on the stage toward fully automated space communism :P
Post by: Cruxador on August 18, 2018, 12:18:38 pm
Post by: Radsoc on August 18, 2018, 02:25:39 pm
By definition any communism would be post-scarcity, the disagreements lie in how to get there. Early contradictions were for example between idealism and materialism, utopian vs scientific socialism. Goalwise, most types of anarchism would conform with communism. For a long time scientific socialism was synonymous with socialism post-Marx, but unfortunately that has changed to basically mean anything today.
With the upcoming update one could argue that the fixation to "shared burdens" might not be in line with the necessary flexibility that is required to deal with changes in reality. In the early Soviet Union implementation of socialism had to be abandoned short term to make it viable at a later point, long term, e.g. through the risky NEP. The PRC has a similar idea of developing productive forces, but take it one step further, and at least still claim to be in control. Yet, the stellaris snails might be past that, but the idea still remains, that core-egalitarianism does not necessarily imply a socialism in practice, and that the different policies shouldn't be hard locked for such civs. But, ok, if it's a "moral democracy", then it could make sense. But it wouldn't be communism or any kind of materialist/scientific socialism at that stage.
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on August 19, 2018, 10:20:43 pm
Reminds me of a forum post Wiz made recently to the tune of "in a game with space dragons, post-scarcity communism that works isn't too bizarre of a fantasy for us to include". Personally, since the biggest impediment to functional communism is human nature, I think it's reasonable to include aliens who can do it. I look forward to a similar treatment to anarchism, especially anarcho-syndicalism and anarcho-tribalism.
social systems gravitate to the stability point/attractor that best conforms with the current level of technology. And that there is an inertia to change, that springs out of existing structures that still rely on how old technologies organize society, giving rise to class contradictions leading toward a revolution that make social systems conform with technology.
By definition any communism would be post-scarcity, the disagreements lie in how to get there. Early contradictions were for example between idealism and materialism, utopian vs scientific socialism. Goalwise, most types of anarchism would conform with communism.
The problem with simulating anarcho anything, is that it will always be window-dressing covering the fact that all the means of control, production and planning are centralized in you--you, the player, sit at the top of the hierarchy that anarcho anything seeks to abolish--like it or not, the 4X genre is structurally either an autocracy, or if you are feeling generous, a communist dictatorship, but it does not yet represent a real system of social re-organization around technology or even popular dissent in a way that models authentic politics.
The closest game to accomplish truly modeling politics is Crusader Kings, and even there it is fairly rudimentary in the form of distinct vassals with distinct opinions all trying to poison you. The best 4x I can think of for actually having technology re-organize society is Fall From Heaven 2--I am thinking especially of the Ashen Veil religion which adjusts to the encroaching apocalypse with civics like "sacrifice the weak", with social implications neatly matching mechanics.
It reminds me of Ian Bogost's argument in Persuasive Games--games are good at representing complicated systems, but in the process of "representing", they tend to persuade players that the systems they represent are accurate and neutral images of reality, rather than ideological positions in themselves.
It is a bit like the recent press statement from the Cree Nation on Civ 6 https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/01/05/civilization-vi-cree-nation-cultural-representation/
They appreciate being included and all, but find Civ offensive for making colonialism literally the most basic mechanic within the game, and not including any alternatives (except Science victory, which we all know from Alpha Centauri etc. is just shifting colonial warfare to space)--you *have to* exterminate all nations in your way, either by burning their cities or eradicating their culture by subsuming it into yours: It perpetuates this myth that First Nations had similar values that the colonial culture has, and that is one of conquering other peoples and accessing their land.
For the Cree, this is over-writing all other historical social strategies, and especially their own ( although we can extrapolate that the same happens in many other cases e.g. the Roman Empire, notable for tolerating any and all cultural and religious differences so long as the taxes got paid and no rebellions happened) to make the one that specifically destroyed their culture A. totally normal and natural and B. inevitable, which turns a specific and particularly brutal period in history, into history itself--past, present, and future.
Post by: Teneb on August 20, 2018, 01:21:10 pm
So, yeah. Stellaris for consoles. I really wonder how they translated the controls, because I can't picture it without mouse+keyboard.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on August 20, 2018, 01:45:20 pm
they are intentionally going to recreate the drama surrounding removal of FTL types
amazing
Post by: Telgin on August 20, 2018, 02:05:38 pm
Not that it changes the impending hilarity, of course.
Post by: Trekkin on August 20, 2018, 02:36:30 pm
rofl... and it's... version 1.7....
they are intentionally going to recreate the drama surrounding removal of FTL types
amazing
Clearly Xbox will be all-hyperlane, Playstation will have warp and Switch will have wormholes.
Post by: umiman on August 20, 2018, 02:49:30 pm
I don't even know what to say...
Post by: Rolan7 on August 20, 2018, 03:05:34 pm
I'm pretty baffled at that decision too, and nobody has officially explained it yet. My guess is that they chose a fixed version to begin porting with instead of trying to keep it current with the live version, and that they must have started this quite some time ago.They kinda confirmed that in this reply (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-to-be-first-ever-grand-strategy-game-to-land-on-consoles.1115572/page-3#post-24581439).
Not that it changes the impending hilarity, of course.
Not that it's really much of an explanation. I get that they had to start somewhere, but... to release such an old version? It's almost reassuring how insulting that is to the console customers.
Reassuring because so many series (The Elder Scrolls, arguably NewCOM) are designed for controllers instead of keyboard+mouse. They say they won't do that here... And the fact that they're putting out such an ancient version makes me believe them.
Ironically, some anons (http://boards.4chan.org/vg/thread/225243176#p225302183) pointed out that the console versions UI looks cleaner and better even *for mouse and keyboard*. And I'm not sure they're wrong, heh. Playing Stellaris with a controller could maybe be a neat thing to try... Except they did all this work for 1.7, there's no way we're getting any of this in PC Stellaris.
At least they're not wasting much dev-time on this, it's an outsourced job. It probably means very little for Stellaris on PC, just a trippy business venture.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on August 21, 2018, 11:09:14 pm
Post by: Cruxador on August 22, 2018, 12:09:30 am
Post by: Rolan7 on August 22, 2018, 12:21:15 am
Or the other ethics, really! Space religion or space
The correct answer is United Nations of Earth, seeking new life and new civilizations.
And all your neighbors are militarist xenophobes because that's literally what they patched in to the game. And your people lean toward militarism simply due to hostile neighbors, which is a neat twist. And you have to decide whether to shift your ethics just a little, to survive...
Or you can literally just play EMPIRE O MAN PURGE THE XENOS. Or Aliens as in the movie, eating everything.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on August 22, 2018, 06:07:55 am
Post by: Telgin on August 22, 2018, 08:07:52 am
And all your neighbors are militarist xenophobes because that's literally what they patched in to the game.
I can't tell if this is what you meant, but in my experience the game seems to try to generate a disproportionate number of AI empires with ethics opposed to yours, probably to try to keep the game interesting. This means that when I played with pacifist materialist empires, the galaxy was just packed with evangelizing zealot religious militarist empires, but had the humorous effect of making the galaxy full of pacifists when I played a militarist empire. Not every empire is like that and I occasionally had one or two friendly empires, but most are.
Post by: Mephansteras on August 22, 2018, 11:05:22 am
I have also had the opposite, where pretty much all of my neighbors were skewed against me and things got rough really quickly.
Post by: Descan on August 22, 2018, 01:10:56 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on August 22, 2018, 02:34:52 pm
Post by: Telgin on August 22, 2018, 02:58:04 pm
Except the gestalt consciousness slug people down south, who kept sending me insults despite being inferior to me. I finally gave them what they asked for, and then groaned when they kept sending me insults despite me beating the snot out of them.
Oh, and the driven assimilators next to them. They were perfectly fine neighbors for about 200 years, at which point I finally accepted a war invitation to get rid of them because I got tired of empires asking me to help get rid of them. That turned into a real pain because I wasn't the primary aggressor and thus couldn't force a status quo, and I'd gotten all the war exhaustion out of them I could without capturing all of their planets. Capturing their planets was looking to be a major pain in the butt and half of them were filled with things other than robots which I didn't want to deal with once I took the planets.
When I did finally capture two of their worlds, I couldn't even figure out how to displace the weird aliens left behind. Does there have to be space open in an empire accepting refugees for them to actually be displaced? I ended up figuring out how to release them as vassals, so that solved the problem at least.
Anyway, the war in heaven triggered and alliances changed enough to force the war to end. Lesson learned: just like I'll never join another federation, I'll never accept another war invitation.
Then after the Contingency nearly wiped the driven assimilators out, they started sending insults to me... ::)
Post by: Trekkin on August 22, 2018, 03:14:05 pm
I had some Holy Guardians declare war on me for undergoing synthetic ascension, so I went and kicked their teeth in, assimilated them into robots, and resettled those robots onto habitats so I could shatter their holy worlds while they watched. Apparently the World Cracker can't do that.
A Nicoll-Dyson beam apparently can, and moving them into a Penrose ringworld (both from the Gigastructures mod) so they could watch their worlds evaporate from a system over and keep brooding on it in their immortal robot shells long after the stars burned out was a barely acceptable substitute, but I had intended that to be the finale. it just felt rushed this way.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on August 22, 2018, 03:23:53 pm
Post by: Broseph Stalin on August 22, 2018, 04:47:23 pm
Post by: Baffler on August 22, 2018, 04:47:37 pm
Kinda odd, in my opinion. Militaristic playstyles are most fun when there's people to fight, and pacifist playstyles are most fun when there's people to negotiate with. You certainly don't want to flood the universe in either direction, but I'd think you might want slightly more empires with your own ethics, at least on that scale.
Playing a militaristic xenophile or a pacifist xenophobe tends to give you a fairly good spread from what I've seen. My current authoritarian/militarist/xenophile gave me a galaxy where the north side was filled with egalitarian xenophiles and the south around me was filled with materialists and other empires with similar but not identical ethics, plus a hivemind and some democratic crusaders who both got rekt early game. The pacifist one gave a nice mix of angry xenophobes and democracies of various kinds.
From what I've seen though, it seems that pretty much every AI empire that doesn't completely seal itself off to Inward Perfection levels and isn't restricted from diplomacy in some way will eventually become fanatic xenophile + some local flavor, which is usually egalitarian. Xenophile just has too many attractors compared to the others outside of special circumstances.
Post by: pisskop on August 22, 2018, 05:53:47 pm
But I do take issue with xenophobic and being able to select what Im xenophobic about. Study the crystals, breed the squid.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on August 22, 2018, 06:54:12 pm
Post by: Trekkin on August 22, 2018, 07:14:12 pm
Xenophobic is good for early game expansions. Plus my experience has been that slaves and slave optimizations are quite good; slaves rebellions dont take real root until midgame.
But I do take issue with xenophobic and being able to select what Im xenophobic about. Study the crystals, breed the squid.
I'd like more of a lack of control; it would give a slight feeling of running an empire rather than a hive mind, excusing for a moment how limited hive minds are, and having options limited by what the populace will accept. You might want to study the crystals, but your populace regularly vivisects potatoes because anything with that many eyes has to be an alien spy, so someone pointed out that a research project on real live aliens is just a lab accident waiting to happen and you'll probably be hauled away as an alien collaborator for asking too many questions about it so no option for you. Militarists might not want to hunt them, but the people have got an awful lot of guns and they wouldn't want to look weak and coupable, and Pacifists might really want to do something violent but the people would just frown irenically at them so that's a no go.
Post by: Telgin on August 22, 2018, 09:06:54 pm
You know something I would wish for? An ability to actually be able to train your admirals and generals (little as the latter are used) outside of war. Doesn't have to go all the way to max, just give me at least some ability to get them better than baseline. Maybe factor in training the actual ships and armies as well, given they can have ranks as well. Hell, could even make it +1/day (with a buff to how quickly ships gain it. Seriously, +1 per day of *combat*), and it would still take about ~27.8 years straight to reach the max level. Make it .5 or .25 if that seems a little fast (~55.6 or ~111.1 years), just so long as there is something I'd be happy.
Yes please. The only time I've seen a ship beyond Experienced was two of my titans that made it Veteran after several wars, including a War in Heaven. Of course they went poof after the first couple of fights with the Contingency, and I'll never see another Veteran or better ship in this game, that's for sure.
Post by: Trekkin on August 22, 2018, 11:37:28 pm
Post by: Baffler on August 23, 2018, 01:10:15 am
You know something I would wish for? An ability to actually be able to train your admirals and generals (little as the latter are used) outside of war. Doesn't have to go all the way to max, just give me at least some ability to get them better than baseline. Maybe factor in training the actual ships and armies as well, given they can have ranks as well. Hell, could even make it +1/day (with a buff to how quickly ships gain it. Seriously, +1 per day of *combat*), and it would still take about ~27.8 years straight to reach the max level. Make it .5 or .25 if that seems a little fast (~55.6 or ~111.1 years), just so long as there is something I'd be happy.
Yes please. The only time I've seen a ship beyond Experienced was two of my titans that made it Veteran after several wars, including a War in Heaven. Of course they went poof after the first couple of fights with the Contingency, and I'll never see another Veteran or better ship in this game, that's for sure.
I usually manage to get at least the capital ships get up to high levels of skill (Veteran but never elite) over the course of one or two wars, though for smaller ships it seems to be more difficult since they aren't as survivable. I don't know if it's just my design strategy is off or what but I always seem to lose almost my entire corvette fleet and most of the destroyers unless the balance of power is completely lopsided, while the big guys come out practically undamaged. This snowballs, and the capital ships get even tougher and more survivable while the escorts are coming out as experienced as they can be with a Fleet Academy. So I try to redesign them to make them tougher and better at dodging, and sometimes it helps a little, but it seems like massive escort losses is just the price of admission.
But either way from what I've seen ship XP seems to depend solely on time spent in combat, with actions during that combat being irrelevant, so if things are being resolved quickly in either direction that might be causing the problems.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on August 23, 2018, 07:36:41 am
Quote from: Wiz, post: 24589812, member: 87299
Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today we're going to continue on the topic that we started on in last week's dev diary (http://'https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-121-planetary-rework-part-1-of-4.1115043/'): The Planetary Rework coming in the 2.2 'Le Guin' update. As this is a massive topic that affects many areas of the game, we've split it into four parts. Today's part is going to be talking about Pop Jobs, Strata, Housing, Growth and Migration. As before, any screenshots are likely to feature placeholder art, unpolished interfaces and non-final numbers.
Pop Jobs
In the Le Guin update, Jobs is the main way through which resources are produced on planets. Jobs come in two main types, Capped and Uncapped. Capped Jobs are Jobs that are limited by what the planet can offer, for example, you can only have as many Pops working in mining as you have Mining Jobs from Mining Districts. Uncapped Jobs, on the other hand, can always be worked by a Pop that fulfills the requirements, but generally require a specific trait or species right setting. For example, a species that is set as Livestock will work in a special Livestock Job that requires no upkeep, produces food each month and makes the Pop working it require very little Housing (more on that below). Pops will automatically fill empty Jobs that they are capable of holding, and each Job has weights that make them more or less suitable for a specific Pop - an Industrious Pop will be preferred over a non-Industrious one for a job that produces Minerals, for example. Pops that are more suitable for a Job than the current Pop holding the Job may take it from it them, so constructing a bunch of Robot Pops with mining equipment will likely see your organic Miners losing their jobs in short order. The player can set the priority of specific Jobs, ensuring some Jobs are always filled before others, but there is no manual assignment of specific Pops to specific Jobs, as that is one of the more micromanage-y aspects of the old tile system that we wanted to get away from.
In addition to resource production, there is also a wide variety of Jobs related to administration and tending to the needs of other Pops. For example, Clerks are service industry workers, 'Space Baristas' that produce a small number of luxury goods and increase the Trade Value of the planet as a result of domestic economic activity in your cities, while Enforcers are your police, working to suppress dissent and reduce Crime on the planet (more on that next dev diary). Some Jobs are rarer than others - Crystal Miner Jobs are only possible on planets that have Rare Crystal deposits, and some anomalies add unique planetary features that create Jobs which might only exist on that particular planet. Some Empires, such as Hive Minds and Machine Empires, also have their own special Jobs that are not available to others. Jobs are fully moddable and come with auto-generated modifiers and functions that make them very easy for modders to add to planets.
Strata and Unemployment
Whether or not a Pop holds a Job, the vast majority of Pops will belong to a Stratum, representing social classes and other broad segments of the population. The exact Strata that exist in an empire depend on the type of Empire you're playing, but for regular (non-Gestalt) empires, the population will usually be divided into the following three categories:In addition to these three, there are certain special Strata for Pops that fulfill specific conditions, such as the Slave stratum for enslaved Pops. Slave Pops usually require no o
- Rulers: This stratum represents the government and wealthy elite. Ruler Pops have a much greater impact on Stability (more on this in next dev diary) than the other two classes and require a great deal of Luxury Goods to stay happy.
- Specialists: This stratum represents the educated population working in more prestigious and highly paid jobs. Specialist Pops typically work with refining resources or performing intellectual tasks, and require more Luxury Goods than workers in order to stay happy.
- Workers: This stratum represents the vast majority of the working population. They generally work with raw resource production and require fewer Luxury Goods than Rulers and Specialists.
r almost no luxuries, but are generally only able to hold Worker-class jobs. Each Job is associated with a specific Stratum (such as Ruler Stratum for Administrators and Nobles), and a Pop that takes that Job will usually be instantly promoted to said Stratum. However, while promotion of Pops to a higher Stratum may be quick and painless, demotion is not. A Pop that becomes unemployed will keep the Stratum of the Job that it used to occupy, and will refuse to take a Job from a lower Stratum, even if there are open Jobs available. Over time, these Pops will demote down to a lower Stratum, but as Unemployment can cause quite a bit of unhappiness, having unemployed upper class Pops can be a serious source of instability for a planet while those Pops are demoting. This effect is more pronounced in a stratified empire, as the lack of social safety nets increases the Happiness penalties for unemployment.
[ATTACH=full]399312[/ATTACH]
Housing
One of the major reasons we decided to rework the tile system was the limitations it placed on planetary populations - not just limiting us to an absolute maximum of 25 pops, but also ensuring that planets could never be over- or underpopulated, as the ideal number of Pops on a planet would always be equal to the number of tiles. In the Le Guin update, the hard restriction of one Pop per tile has been replaced with a soft cap known as Housing. Housing is a value on the planet that is primarily provided by Districts, with City Districts giving far more Housing than their resource-focused alternatives. Each Pop requires 1 unit of Housing by default, though the Housing demands of individual Pops can change due to a wide variety of factors such as Traits, Stratum, Job and so on.
For example, a Robot Pop that is not sapient or has not been given Citizen Rights requires far less housing than an ordinary Pop, as the storage and support infrastructure they require occupies significantly less space on the planet than the dedicated housing occupied by your citizens. Housing is not a hard limit, and the housing requirements of Pops can exceed the available Housing if the planet population continues to grow without additional Housing being constructed. This is called Overcrowding, and will result in a variety of negative effects such as reduced growth speed and lowered Happiness/stability, but also increases the Migration Push on the planet (more on that below), so a small amount of Overcrowding may actually be desirable on your heavily populated planets in order to grow your new colonies.
Growth and Migration
Migration is a concept that's never quite worked out to be as interesting as it should be in Stellaris. While there were a lot of mechanics related to how Pops moved and why, these mechanics were quite opaque, and the wholesale movements of Pops that simply packed up and moved to another world resulted in a mechanic that often felt more like a nuisance to the player than anything, as Pops would leave critical buildings on your core worlds untended to in order to settle down on some newly colonized ball of ice on the other side of your empire. For this reason, when reworking the migration mechanics, we decided that the new system would tie more directly into Pop Growth and make it more clear what benefits you were receiving from migration on a planet.
Under the new Growth and Migration system, each Planet has five different main variables that determine its demographical direction: Pop Growth, Pop Decline, Immigration Pull, Emigration Push and Pop Assembly. I will go over each of these in turn:That's all for today! Next week we'll continue with part 3 of the Planetary Rework dev diaries, on the topic of Happiness, Stability and Crime.
- Pop Growth: This is the base level of Pop Growth on the planet from natural reproduction and immigration. A Planet will only have a single growing Species at any given time, but is not limited to the Species alreadyliving on the planet - any Species with theoretical access to the planet through migration will be able to start growing on a planet, and when choosing a Species to grow, planets will generally prioritize Species that are under-represented on the planet, meaning for example that an empire with Syncretic Evolution will generally have both its Species growing in turn on any new colonies, instead of being limited to only the Species that they used to colonize the planet. The rights you have assigned to Species will factor into this, so a Species with Full Citizenship will get far higher weight when deciding which Pop to grow next than one that merely has Residence. Habitability is also a major factor.
- Pop Decline: Pop Decline represents the decline of certain Species on the planet, and usually is a result of shifting demographics or Purging. Overcrowded Planets that have over-represented Species will have those Species begin to decline in numbers and be replaced by newly growing, under-represented Species. This means that planet demographics will change over time, for example having your homeworlds turn more cosmopolitan and multi-species over time as a result of signing Migration Treaties as a Xenophile, or your privileged main species with Full Citizen moving onto conquered planets and replacing the less privileged population already living there as a Xenophobe. Purging a particular species will essentially guarantee that Species' rapid decline, creating massive amounts of Emigration in the form of Refugees if Displacement is used.
- Immigration and Emigration: Each Planet has an Immigration Pull and Emigration Push value generated by factors such as Housing, Stability, Unemployment and so on. By subtracting Emigration from Immigration, the overall Migration state of the planet is calculated. A planet with more Emigration than Immigration will have faster Pop Decline, but will also 'export' its Emigration value to a general Migration Pool that is distributed among potential immigration targets. Planets with higher Immigration Pull will receive a greater share of this migration, which is converted directly into Pop Growth. Normally, Planets can only send their Emigration to planets in the same empire, but signing Migration Treaties or accepting Refugees will allow you to receive migration from planets outside your borders.
- Pop Assembly: Pop Assembly represents a planet's capacity for constructing artificial (generally Robotic) Pops and comes from certain Jobs provided by special buildings. Each unit of Pop Assembly provided by Jobs will automatically contribute 1 growth towards the next artificial Pop being built on the planet. A Planet can have both Growing and Assembling Pops, and there is no link between Pop Assembly and Emigration/Immigration asides from the potential for assembled Pops to create overcrowding and unemployment.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-122-planetary-rework-part-2-of-4.1115992/
about half a dozen pics in that thread i didn't link in
Post by: Telgin on August 23, 2018, 10:02:34 am
I'm actually fine with that being something you should have to prepare for, but I'd really prefer the option to have droids and synths be separate populations you could maintain simultaneously. Droids are for menial labor, but synths are people. If you had the option to keep existing droids as droids, then this is no longer a problem, and I wouldn't feel bad building robots to work the mines when I know down the line they're going to be replaced with intelligent synths. It never made a lot of sense to me that droids should automatically and without option be upgraded to synths, except as a way to keep game mechanics simpler.
I guess with modding this will be possible, anyway. And with the new system the synths will probably move out of mining to specialist jobs, so the economic waste isn't as bad.
I usually manage to get at least the capital ships get up to high levels of skill (Veteran but never elite) over the course of one or two wars, though for smaller ships it seems to be more difficult since they aren't as survivable. I don't know if it's just my design strategy is off or what but I always seem to lose almost my entire corvette fleet and most of the destroyers unless the balance of power is completely lopsided, while the big guys come out practically undamaged. This snowballs, and the capital ships get even tougher and more survivable while the escorts are coming out as experienced as they can be with a Fleet Academy. So I try to redesign them to make them tougher and better at dodging, and sometimes it helps a little, but it seems like massive escort losses is just the price of admission.
But either way from what I've seen ship XP seems to depend solely on time spent in combat, with actions during that combat being irrelevant, so if things are being resolved quickly in either direction that might be causing the problems.
Yeah, pretty much, and this is why I tend toward homogeneous battleship fleets by the end game. Everything else is destroyed too readily, and I don't like having to replace things. Corvettes still have their place because they're much faster than battleships, but I still hate building them because I know I'll be rebuilding them. At least when the crisis hits, which is my primary source of combat.
Speaking of capital ship survivability though, it sucks that titans seem to be more of a liability than anything when fighting the crises (or Contingency anyway, since it's the only one I've seen). As I said before, I managed to get two titans up to Veteran status, but I lost a titan roughly every other battle against the Contingency and got sick of rebuilding them. That was with me stacking dark matter deflectors and shield capacitors as much as I could, alongside 7 levels of repeatable shield harmonics, to counter the energy weapons. 14K shields isn't enough when the titan flies out ahead of the fleet and draws almost all of the fire. The time and resource cost just wasn't worth it compared to battleships.
Post by: Nelia Hawk on August 23, 2018, 11:18:48 am
in previous games i noticed a lot that all my "big ships" (cruisers/battleships) got killed first every fight... from big shipclass to small one. not sure if stuff like this is still happening or if its based on weapon size... like XL/L shoot battleships first then cruisers... S shoot corvettes first then destroyers...
but back then (dont rememebr when i noticed that exactly its soem months ago) it was so weird that always the 5 battleships died first and the 20 corvettes survived teh fight.
and i like to build more balanced fleets... not "just highest shipclass" stuff like in so many games that seems to be the best strategy... maybe like 2-3 battleships, 5 cruisers, 10 destroyers, 30 corvettes... and not 15 battleships... cause that just feels way wrong for me somehow hah.
Post by: Telgin on August 23, 2018, 02:11:26 pm
In theory, mixed fleets could be very good. Destroyers with lots of point defense mixed with some other ships for attacking would be ideal against an enemy that uses lots of missiles and torpedoes, for example, but I don't think the AI ever does, except for the Prethoryn Swarm, which I've never faced. For the Contingency (and probably the Unbidden) at least, it seems like having tougher ships is the best you can do, to minimize losses. I don't think the Contingency does use any penetrating weapons, since I always watch the battles and always see shields evaporate before the ship does, but I think the Unbidden does, so crystal plating against them would be ideal. Too bad there's no repeatable for extra ship hull points, but I guess engineering repeatables are already pretty crowded.
Anyway, as far as ship targeting goes, based on what I've read the ships prioritize targeting other ships of their size, and larger ships and weapons have a hard time hitting smaller ships. So, depending on what you were facing, corvettes could have been targeted last in the fight, and their evasion might have spared them from what was left. I can say with confidence that cruisers and destroyers at least are death traps against the Contingency, and I imagine corvettes would suffer lots of losses too, but maybe not as bad. I think their smaller ships are destroyer sized, so they probably have decent tracking against corvettes.
Post by: umiman on August 23, 2018, 02:32:13 pm
Sending large ships against them is suicide. It'll work given enough ships, but completely suboptimal since 1/2 the price amount in corvettes will achieve the same thing.
There's no "combat balance" in this game. If this was competitive MP, then every single tournament will just be corvette spam. The only reason to build anything else is just for RP reasons.
Post by: Telgin on August 23, 2018, 02:50:25 pm
I was going to say that corvettes can only load out disruptors as penetration weapons, but missiles and torpedoes penetrate shields so they're almost as good. If you send 700+ of those at a Contingency fleet then I'm sure their point defense will have almost no impact on the damage dealt.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on August 24, 2018, 11:31:50 am
Post by: Telgin on August 24, 2018, 12:01:49 pm
My guess is that it's an oversight, but it could also be to prevent players from conquering AI opponents too easily, since a player can generally beat a stronger AI because it plans poorly. If you could demand tribute or vassalization of an empire that's comparable or stronger than you, then win, that would make you vastly stronger for little effort compared to claiming and conquering everything piece by piece.
That said, I'm kind of curious why the game weighs naval capacity and technology as heavily as fleet power. They both factor indirectly into fleet power anyway, so it effectively double counts them for relative power. Besides, if the enemy has a much weaker fleet than you now, but could theoretically have a much bigger fleet, then it doesn't matter all that much right now if you declare war. Comparing your economies more directly would make more sense I think, but maybe that's not as simple as I'm thinking it is.
Edit: Actually, don't vassals try to rebel if they're too strong? Maybe the devs thought it would just be frustrating if if you immediately entered a cycle of rebellion from your new, strong vassals, but then that seems like a realistic problem to have if you tried it...
Post by: Cruxador on August 24, 2018, 02:06:59 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on August 24, 2018, 11:11:54 pm
Somewhat oddly, the Militarists are happy if I declare a lot of rivals, while the Xenophobes are happy if I'm at war.
Sorry, that just seems backwards.
Also, the Militaristists seem really needy. Declaring rivals gives +2/+4/+6, *cumulatively*, with the goal being +10% to get influence. In other words, I need three rivals to get the tacit support of my Fanatic faction.
The +2% from "Traditional Supremacy" doesn't help in that base case, but it does unlock a +5% for having a vassal. Which is a can of worms, but okay.
I guess the +10% for acquiring an alien planet is supposed to be the balancing factor, despite lasting only 10 years. B-but I wanted to be ornery isolationist self-defense humans...
Also jeezum crow, I had left the difficulty on Commodore from when I was playing a Devouring Swarm (and had a laughably easy time, of course). I thought I was just rusty, but suddenly I understand why everyone constantly has more fleet capacity than me. Not to mention HALF AGAIN more mineral income, ha.
Doesn't matter, though, human ingenuity is winning out. Expanding strategically, fighting in depth, and even accepting a little territory loss in one place while locking off a clean expansion zone.
Humanity survives.
Earth... didn't survive. We made contact in 2251, and they were surrounded by fanatical "purifiers" (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1491839953). Their xeno ally bought them a few years of life, as did our unilateral pledge of support. But they were murdered to the last, and their "ally" blocked our fleets from assisting.
We offered them refuge! We did! But they died for their ideals.
It was a turning point for The Commonwealth of Man. We immediately freed our xeno servants, and "asked" them to leave. We closed our borders to every xeno, even the tree-beings who had shown us kindness earlier. And we set our sights inward, to science.
We unlocked the wormholes, securing unclaimed resources... and discovering new threats. Zealots of alien religions, empires eager to enslave us, even a sector-spanning machine.
We must survive, for Earth. We must remember their ideals, because no xeno will.
We must never sink to genocide.
Or ever trust a xeno not to.
One day, when only our starships roam the galaxy, when there are no more threats... Maybe then, we can live alongside the alien. As our progenitors wished.
And the Murderers will be there too, in OUR galaxy, because death is too good for them.
Edit: Not sure how I messed up the link like that. Also, current year (2349) (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1491861424).
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 25, 2018, 04:00:59 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on August 26, 2018, 02:17:20 am
The solution isn't xeno blood, though. Just military domination.
Civilians are not targets, and will be provided safe passage away. Once we own the galaxy, they'll be relocated to the vassal states under our rule.
We don't genocide. We allow the xeno to serve, or die off in obscurity.
The point is that we must establish dominance so that certain horrors are never repeated.
We are basically the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za, and I like it.
Edit: My attempt at using the slavery mechanics resulted in an Egalitarian movement springing up and taking 25% marketshare somehow. It's fading off since I disbanded xeno slavery. I'm not going egalitarian again - if anything, I might embrace the significant Materialist faction. Or, likely not.
Edit2: To make it more explicit: We follow The Path of Now and Forever (http://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/Path_of_Now_and_Forever). Star Control 2 spoilers, sorta. They don't spoil the game at all.
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 26, 2018, 03:52:53 am
Post by: Karnewarrior on August 26, 2018, 10:30:03 am
Post by: Teneb on August 26, 2018, 10:40:11 am
Hitler also "Relocated" the Jews to ghettos, and then when he found out he didn't have enough space to have a GRORIOUS ARYAN EMPYRE and a subdued Jewish state, that's when he decided to start the genocidin'. At least, that's what I gathered from my history classes, which were American so I guess take this pile of salt?Hitler's Final Solution was called that because he had tried other ways to dispose of the jews and other minorities beforehand, but had to give up on them. The original plan was to deport them all to Madagascar. Mass deportation is still a form of genocide, going by the UN's definition of the term (and they invented it, so I think it's fair go by this one).
Post by: ChairmanPoo on August 26, 2018, 10:49:27 am
Post by: Criptfeind on August 26, 2018, 12:11:04 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 26, 2018, 12:13:02 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 26, 2018, 01:55:13 pm
Post by: Teneb on August 26, 2018, 02:01:19 pm
Post by: Radsoc on August 26, 2018, 02:21:23 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on August 26, 2018, 04:18:25 pm
I hope this means you can disgustingly overpopulated hive worlds that are just 100% of the planet's surface covered in kowloon walled cities
I see no reason why not. Any planet can have as many city/urban districts as it can hold, which is great because they provide the most housing per district too. Throw in as many housing requirement reducing civics, living standards and traits as you can get, and I see no reason why you can't have a population density to rival the Kowloon Walled City over the entire planet. I think that was explicitly a goal mentioned by the developers too.
Post by: Culise on August 26, 2018, 04:23:22 pm
Its fall into a pastoral ruin is also an inevitability, but let's not go into details.
Post by: Trekkin on August 26, 2018, 04:29:08 pm
I hope this means you can disgustingly overpopulated hive worlds that are just 100% of the planet's surface covered in kowloon walled cities
I see no reason why not. Any planet can have as many city/urban districts as it can hold, which is great because they provide the most housing per district too. Throw in as many housing requirement reducing civics, living standards and traits as you can get, and I see no reason why you can't have a population density to rival the Kowloon Walled City over the entire planet. I think that was explicitly a goal mentioned by the developers too.
Yeah, the whole idea of an ecumenopolis is well established in the sort of space opera lore that Stellaris is drawing from. Coruscant is probably the widest-known example, although its numbers are as messed up as anything in Star Wars.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on August 26, 2018, 04:45:25 pm
It also means that genemodding pops to breed extremely quickly and then displacing them is going to be even more effective at hilariously crippling your opponents.How have I not already done this? My xenophobic slavers are going to create a version of a slave race that's super fertile and terrible at everything, fill a planet with them and then mass deport to screw with those dirty xenophiles.
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 26, 2018, 04:51:57 pm
How have I not already done this? My xenophobic slavers are going to create a version of a slave race that's super fertile and terrible at everything, fill a planet with them and then mass deport to screw with those dirty xenophiles.Locust pops are good: But try one better. Make them fertile, utterly useless, solitary & charismatic. Unleash the galactic catsplosion of adorable, useless cats into every enemy Empire
Post by: Egan_BW on August 26, 2018, 05:28:24 pm
Post by: pisskop on August 26, 2018, 07:01:09 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on August 26, 2018, 07:15:38 pm
To clarify: you can create custom human empires with different species traits without them stopping being human. But Earth and Deneb humans will share traits when spawning, regardless of the nature of those traits, AFAIK.
Post by: pisskop on August 26, 2018, 07:20:16 pm
Post by: Damiac on August 26, 2018, 08:17:57 pm
I'm going to keep waiting until it's a side scrolling beat 'em up, I expect that'll happen around version 5.
Post by: Nelia Hawk on August 26, 2018, 10:59:36 pm
would be cool if they make this change a beta version again to "testplay" it "earlier"... also might help modders get used to the new stuff and to give them alot of testing as its a totally new changed system with probably quite a few bugs or maybe little traits that were overlooked or so and people find not working right.
Post by: Telgin on August 26, 2018, 11:04:55 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on August 29, 2018, 08:19:55 pm
Reason I'm amused is that it works in reverse. They refuse to instant-transfer even a single unit, if you're offering them monthly payments.
To the point that I said "Okay... What if we don't pay you 10 minerals per month?" and the trade went from -1000 to 3, acceptable.
(Also the UI explanation was the same: "Does not want to trade away monthly resources for instant resources." Pretty minor, but inaccurate text heh)
Edit: Also, protip that there is a relations bonus for offering generous deals, rather than haggling it down to a green 1 Trade Acceptance. It seems pretty minor in normal cases, and degrades of course. I haven't tested extreme values, though.
Post by: pisskop on August 29, 2018, 09:28:17 pm
They decay is hardcore, at -2 a month, but at high levels it can push them past the threshold to gain trust-building deals or vassalizations.
The phobic aliens also have a small bonus to relations for enslaving, conquering primitives, or genocide. heh, its like +2 and decays quickly.
Point is, you can see when they hit their own storage max because they stop accruing points in favor of accepting the trade.
Post by: Telgin on August 29, 2018, 10:13:37 pm
I'm currently playing a life-seeded game, and I was expecting to need to trade for minerals pretty badly based on what I read about the civic. I actually haven't had any issues with minerals though, and managed to start building habitats around 2270. I've got 5 now at 2299, so that's not too bad.
What I'm really sucking on is unity. I was expecting this tall build to do well with unity, but having only a single planet to generate unity for most of the game means I've been very slow to acquire it. I was hoping to have Galactic Wonders by now, but it looks like it's going to take a very long time to get my fourth ascension perk. So much for a Science Nexus by 2300.
The guides I read said to just colonize some planets with droids to mine them, but I'm starting to wonder if I really should have stuck some on monuments too... Droids may be suboptimal for unity generation, but it would have helped.
Maybe I'll try again with Inward Perfection and do that next time. Maybe I can rush the Science Nexus by 2300, although finishing Megaengineer research is going to take like 15 years by itself in this game, and Zero Point Power took like 9 years before it...
Post by: Trekkin on August 29, 2018, 10:40:05 pm
It'd be nice if there were a separate menu of mutually exclusive starts along with options for normal, purifier, etc.
Post by: Telgin on August 29, 2018, 10:57:38 pm
I think Wiz stated at some point that he did want to move them out to their own option at some point, so they didn't compete with normal civics, which would be pretty nice.
Post by: pisskop on August 29, 2018, 10:59:11 pm
Better still is the spawned trait 'tomb world preference', which grants a whopping 80% to tomb worlds and 60% to every other world; but it seems that only primitives will get it. Though there are those special systems; the double tomb world one where two humanoids bombed each other and the one where 10 or so small tomb worlds spawn over several systems.
All boons. Plus these primitives are obviously hands down the best slaves and stock for modifications.
Post by: Trekkin on August 29, 2018, 11:06:36 pm
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on August 30, 2018, 06:16:53 am
Post by: Paul on August 30, 2018, 08:37:57 am
Post by: Telgin on August 30, 2018, 09:12:04 am
Honestly, I tend to think they don't give you enough to truly differentiate a species. Precisely why I go with the ethics expanded that doubles your options and increases your points to 5, an increase to 10 trait picks maximum (no default trait point bonuses, but with repeatable tech to get more trait points. Makes bio-ascension worth something as a bonus) with additional traits mods, and double the amount of civics you can have at the start along with some new civics mods (would prefer five or even six, but you run out of room in civilization creation and I haven't found a mod to expand those menus). The collective bonuses and maluses of that increased amount of traits, ethics, and civics is enough to actually feel a difference in playstyle, while there really doesn't feel enough in the base game outside of a few specific civics.
Agreed there. So far I've played pacifist materialists, militarist materialists, inward perfectionist xenophobes, authoritarian pacifists and now life-seeded democratic pacifist materialists, and every play through except the life-seeded one felt remarkably similar. That one is mostly different because of the lack of colonization. The inward perfectionist empire probably should have played differently from the others, but I rarely engage in diplomacy anyway, so it didn't.
The bonus percentages for most civics, traits and ethics don't produce a change you can seriously feel in most cases. Playing as a spiritualist probably does feel pretty different from materialists though, with the robot ban and shroud mechanics, but I haven't tried that yet. Nor have I tried a machine empire or any flavor assimilator or exterminator, which I'm sure do feel substantially different.
In any case, new dev diary today. We finally got to see what stability is, what amenities are for and how crime works. Having to provide amenities for your population makes them feel a tiny bit more alive, and I'm curious to see how different government types interact with the new crime system. Ultimately, it looks like it boils down to a more nuanced version of the old happiness system where different government types can choose to maintain stability in their own way, which is nice.
Post by: Cruxador on August 30, 2018, 10:09:27 am
The link: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-123-planetary-rework-part-3-of-4.1116917/&sdpDevPosts=1 (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-123-planetary-rework-part-3-of-4.1116917/&sdpDevPosts=1)
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 30, 2018, 10:48:13 am
Post by: Cruxador on August 30, 2018, 11:16:52 am
This is pretty typical of Paradox when they rework a major system. Rip out the old, reuse as much as makes sense, make it work at a basic level then later add details and complexityAll of Stellaris has been waiting on the "later" since launch, though.
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 30, 2018, 11:32:24 am
I don't really agree. The game as a whole does what it set out to do very well and they have been steadily adding to it. It is by far my favorite science fiction 4x style game.This is pretty typical of Paradox when they rework a major system. Rip out the old, reuse as much as makes sense, make it work at a basic level then later add details and complexityAll of Stellaris has been waiting on the "later" since launch, though.
Post by: Trekkin on August 30, 2018, 01:06:40 pm
I don't really agree. The game as a whole does what it set out to do very well and they have been steadily adding to it. It is by far my favorite science fiction 4x style game.This is pretty typical of Paradox when they rework a major system. Rip out the old, reuse as much as makes sense, make it work at a basic level then later add details and complexityAll of Stellaris has been waiting on the "later" since launch, though.
Yeah, like how they added -2 FTL types.
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 30, 2018, 01:26:48 pm
Post by: Draignean on August 30, 2018, 01:27:14 pm
It was a good change
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 30, 2018, 01:33:20 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on August 30, 2018, 01:35:56 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 30, 2018, 06:50:10 pm
It seems like Paradox has always preferred to court people who find complexity scary rather than people who want more. It seems counterproductive but I guess it works for them.What a weird passive insult.
Post by: Draignean on August 30, 2018, 06:59:28 pm
It seems like Paradox has always preferred to court people who find complexity scary rather than people who want more. It seems counterproductive but I guess it works for them.
Multiple options does not complexity make. Without galactic topography, a fuel system, and meaningful distances, the original system was degenerative. This wasn't SotS, where different FTL types demanded and provided different playstyles, it just put hyperdrives at a hefty early-game advantage.
Restricting it to hyperlanes allows exploration of depth. FTL anchors provide actual strategic value to systems, Jump Drives are now terrify creations that provide a massive advantage, it actually matters how you explore and colonize in order to maximize choke points and prevent. While Fortresses are a bit off, the changes allow for the creation of important military worlds that actually provide a benefit other than making enemy fleets curve around it and strike anywhere else they please.
Spoiler: The Insulting Version (click to show/hide)
Post by: Putnam on August 30, 2018, 08:22:12 pm
Post by: Broseph Stalin on August 30, 2018, 08:35:22 pm
Unrelated: Am I competely dense or is there no meaningful way to foment discord? I'd love to be able to rile up factions in an enemy civilization and capitalize on civil instability. I get that not everything can be Crusader Kings II but it would be great if more things were.
Heh, I think we discussed AI resource trading and how they hard-refuse to trade away monthly resources in exchange for one-time resources. So no "loans", even it's minerals for energy or whatnot. Fair enough - little bit lazy, SMAC AIs had a loan system, but at least the UI does explain why the Trade Acceptance is -1000 if you mouse over.Super bummed about that. Being a creditor is my favorite thing in games like this. Alloying my patience and wealth, building my revenue streams so slowly and so precisely that when the end comes nobody really understands that the paid for the instruments of their own doom.
Reason I'm amused is that it works in reverse. They refuse to instant-transfer even a single unit, if you're offering them monthly payments.
To the point that I said "Okay... What if we don't pay you 10 minerals per month?" and the trade went from -1000 to 3, acceptable.
(Also the UI explanation was the same: "Does not want to trade away monthly resources for instant resources." Pretty minor, but inaccurate text heh)
Edit: Also, protip that there is a relations bonus for offering generous deals, rather than haggling it down to a green 1 Trade Acceptance. It seems pretty minor in normal cases, and degrades of course. I haven't tested extreme values, though.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on August 30, 2018, 08:56:55 pm
I never played with multiple FTL types but frankly the game as it stands strikes a good balance between being complex enough to be captivating and accessible enough to actually play. "More stuff" isn't necessarily a positive, that said I can appreciate people being upset that they paid for a game that did certain things and they now no longer own that game.
Unrelated: Am I competely dense or is there no meaningful way to foment discord? I'd love to be able to rile up factions in an enemy civilization and capitalize on civil instability. I get that not everything can be Crusader Kings II but it would be great if more things were.
Base game or modded? And if modded, have you tried this mod (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1161435032), the parent mentioned in the description, or this mod (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1442128058&searchtext=espionage)?
Post by: Broseph Stalin on August 30, 2018, 09:25:44 pm
You are a font of eternal glory.
Base game or modded? And if modded, have you tried this mod (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1161435032), the parent mentioned in the description, or this mod (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1442128058&searchtext=espionage)?
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 31, 2018, 04:02:00 am
Post by: Karnewarrior on August 31, 2018, 08:53:56 am
It might make machine empires really dependent on energy but I don't think that's a bad thing.
Post by: Telgin on August 31, 2018, 09:49:15 am
Unrelated: Am I competely dense or is there no meaningful way to foment discord? I'd love to be able to rile up factions in an enemy civilization and capitalize on civil instability. I get that not everything can be Crusader Kings II but it would be great if more things were.
Not without mods, as far as I know. That may change in the next update since they're adding a new stability number to planets which was directly mentioned as leading to revolts and rebellions if it got too low, but we don't know if it'll be possible to influence other empires' planets' stability. I'm going to guess probably not, at least for now. Maybe later when they release a diplomacy / espionage expansion it'll be possible. There's a small chance though, since crime plays into it and may spill across empire borders, but I kind of doubt it.
Anyway, I had a chance to play some more last night and managed to get Galactic Wonders by about 2340 and had a completed Science Nexus running by about 2348. From what I gather this was actually not really all that much of an accomplishment and I've seen people talk about having one by 2300, but it does feel nice to see repeatable techs during the midgame. I feel like I could probably have gotten it 20 years sooner if I hadn't played life-seeded though, due to the dearth of unity that kept me from getting the needed ascension perks. Maybe I should have played taller, but I'm pretty sure the mineral and science gain from the systems I took is worth the +80% or so to tradition costs I accrued that way. Honestly, I probably should have just skipped droid colonizing nearby world for minerals, since that had a much bigger impact on unity and research for comparatively little gain.
Life-seeded coupled with some of my choices is going to make this a very interesting late game, and I'm very worried about my economy. I'm pulling in about 300 minerals per month without edicts, but my energy is actually about -10 per month without edicts. The problem with that is that my navy is also tiny at about 80 ship size units and 10K fleet power. If I can barely afford this fleet, I don't know what I'm going to do when the crisis hits, especially since I cranked the difficulty up to 2x crisis strength. Penetration battleships with Galactic Defender will probably work, I guess. More immediately, the khan showed up last night right as I had to go to bed, and I'm reasonably sure the khanate fleets will be enough to crush my navy if they get close enough...
Post by: Broseph Stalin on August 31, 2018, 05:44:04 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on August 31, 2018, 06:00:40 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 31, 2018, 06:03:31 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on August 31, 2018, 06:05:46 pm
It might still be possible to take out their energy production to cripple them, but you'll have to take out a lot more then you would against a player and they'll be able to rebuild a lot easier.
Post by: pisskop on August 31, 2018, 06:44:11 pm
Post by: umiman on August 31, 2018, 07:41:32 pm
Quote
Increases the difficulty of the game for a greater challenge, with higher difficulties granting bonuses to AI empires. Higher difficulty also increases the strength of the endgame crisis. Vassals of human players do not gain difficulty bonuses.
Ensign - AI empires receive no bonus modifiers, but have minor cheats such as lower gene-modding cost. Non-playable empires (NPCs) receive +33% ship weapon damage and +33% hull/armour/shield.
Captain - AI empires receive +15% naval capacity/technology/unity and +25% energy/minerals/food. NPCs receive +50% ship weapon damage and +50% hull/armour/shield.
Commodore - AI empires receive +30% naval capacity/technology/unity and +50% energy/minerals/food. NPCs receive +66% ship weapon damage and +66% hull/armour/shield.
Admiral - AI empires receive +45% naval capacity/technology/unity and +75% energy/minerals/food. NPCs receive +75% ship weapon damage and +75% hull/armour/shield.
Grand Admiral - AI empires receive +60% naval capacity/technology/unity and +100% energy/minerals/food. NPCs receive +100% ship weapon damage and +100% hull/armour/shield.
Scaling - AI empires receive bonuses that start at zero and scale up, reaching +50% in naval capacity/technology/unity/energy/minerals/food at the End-Game year. NPCs receive bonuses that start at zero and scale up, reaching 50% ship weapon damage and +50% hull/armour/shield at the End-Game year (1% every 4 years if End-Game year is 2400).
I once joined a friend's game hotseat style. He was playing on Commodore difficulty and had only just started.
By taking over the AI I had such a huge advantage in terms of resources it was kinda silly. I then continued to play as normal and built as normal before leaving. (I didn't get any bonus resources while playing, only a giant chunk when starting).
My friend then told me that after I left, the AI which now had a player's hand in creating the foundation, combined with its own huge-ass resource boosts, became the most powerful force in the galaxy.
Post by: Karnewarrior on August 31, 2018, 08:17:37 pm
Post by: Trekkin on August 31, 2018, 09:23:03 pm
So I'm starting a new game of Stellaris, and I was wondering. What mods are you guys using? I got a few already, but I feel like I'm still missing something that I used to have, though I don't know what it is. And you guys have some taste besides.
Gigastructures is probably my favorite right now, if only because it lets me goof around at end game and make tons of concentric ringworlds and so forth.
Post by: Madman198237 on August 31, 2018, 10:20:15 pm
According to the wiki on anything higher then the lowest difficulty level it gets a percentage increase to resource gain, which is pretty much conquering resources out of thin air.
It might still be possible to take out their energy production to cripple them, but you'll have to take out a lot more then you would against a player and they'll be able to rebuild a lot easier.
The actual calculation that I saw is that the AI pays less upkeep, they don't directly get more resources. Though maybe they actually do get more AND pay less upkeep now?
Post by: Broseph Stalin on August 31, 2018, 11:47:22 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 04, 2018, 08:58:25 am
So I'm starting a new game of Stellaris, and I was wondering. What mods are you guys using? I got a few already, but I feel like I'm still missing something that I used to have, though I don't know what it is. And you guys have some taste besides.
star trek: new horizons
Post by: Telgin on September 04, 2018, 12:43:50 pm
In other news, I finally had someone declare war on me outside of the War in Heaven. But... it was just because the Contingency corrupted the ancient caretakers, and they declared war on me despite being on opposite sides of the galaxy. Fighting them has been a challenge since only one empire has built a gateway "near" them at about 400 days of travel away, and I'm just lucky that the crisis is going so I could even use said gateway due to everyone opening their borders.
The Contingency has been surprisingly potent this time around. I increased the crisis difficulty to 2x so it would fare better against the AI and actually expand some, but it really hasn't done a great job of that. On the other hand, the Contingency has beaten me pretty soundly in individual combats. I've had to replace 75%+ of my navy after each sterilization hub since my 400K worth of ships barely beats their 300K defense fleets. I thought I'd do better since my ships are penetration geared and stack dark matter deflectors for defense, but the ships keep doing stupid things like focusing on the AI cores while the defense fleet slaughters them. I've had to rebuild my entire navy and return to sterilization hubs twice to finish them off because my badly depleted fleets were 1200+ days of travel from the nearest ship yard for reinforcements when two or more roaming fleets wandered in to the hub system while they were bombing it. I probably should have jump drived away but I wasn't sure that the drives would engage in time and didn't even try it.
I also probably should have just built way over my naval cap and ignored the negative energy production, since that beats spending 100K+ minerals to replace my ships.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on September 04, 2018, 05:48:02 pm
Jokes on me because when I got their communications I realized they're right beside a fallen empire that doesn't share my views on galactic subjugation. I was careful to claim the pulsar before they surrendered and it's in a choke point for the FE. I will build it bigger I will make it meaner and I will name it Thermopolyae and then, when the time is right I will poke god in the eye.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 04, 2018, 05:54:23 pm
I've been meaning to check that mod out for a long time. It's extremely well done, from what I gather, and I was a big fan of Birth of the Federation way back in the day.
Best thing going for it is its density. Lots of extra events and flavor and anomalies and ship designs etc. Especially for the Alpha Quadrant. I disagree with how they implemented a few features of the Dominion and Borg, but mostly it's great. Slow, though.
Post by: Madman198237 on September 04, 2018, 06:12:24 pm
Jokes on me because when I got their communications I realized they're right beside a fallen empire that doesn't share my views on galactic subjugation. I was careful to claim the pulsar before they surrendered and it's in a choke point for the FE. I will build it bigger I will make it meaner and I will name it Thermopolyae and then, when the time is right I will poke god in the eye.Cuuuuuuue jump drives!
Post by: Broseph Stalin on September 04, 2018, 06:57:11 pm
Cuuuuuuue jump drives!Two can play at that game. Because my only concern with the defenses is anti-armor capability the system appears much much weaker than it is. My plan is that it looks so defenseless that they go straight after it, then I jump all available fleets into the system with their maxed out armor and then I lose anyway because I fucked up something else.
Post by: Rolan7 on September 04, 2018, 08:20:02 pm
Post by: Madman198237 on September 04, 2018, 08:49:40 pm
Technically you're missing the serious debuff that fleets get while jump drive is charging (120 days, I want to say). Though *that* also runs both ways, if they jump past your Thermopylae. I haven't spent enough time in the late-game to have really noticed the AI use jump drives at all, and I would be somewhat surprised if they're smart enough to jump around chokepoints. Maybe jump directly to objectives, but I assume the reinforced system is a priority target for them.Yeah but it's a Fallen Empire. I had one of those try me in my first-ever game. I had just refit all my ships to take the thing on and I still needed to outnumber them, sometimes substantially, in a straight-up fight, if I wanted to win. And they were CONSTANTLY jump-driving around, so many times they had that debuff and could still take on my ships.
Post by: pisskop on September 04, 2018, 08:54:41 pm
But yea, they got bodied pretty hard due to their predictable stupidity by a midgame civ that ran heavy engineering. I even took their systems from them, and they just . . . kind of sat around mewling at me from a telescreen? Why wouldn't they wake up for somebody literally enslaving them?
P: Speaking of, I seem to prefer running twice as much armor as shields... bad? With regenerating hulls and that other one, I find it OP since the game seems to almost assume that I have way more shielding.
Post by: Karnewarrior on September 04, 2018, 09:00:00 pm
But yea, they got bodied pretty hard due to their predictable stupidity by a midgame civ that ran heavy engineering. I even took their systems from them, and they just . . . kind of sat around mewling at me from a telescreen? Why wouldn't they wake up for somebody literally enslaving them?The alien occupation is fake news. :P
Post by: Telgin on September 05, 2018, 07:46:27 am
Cuuuuuuue jump drives!Two can play at that game. Because my only concern with the defenses is anti-armor capability the system appears much much weaker than it is. My plan is that it looks so defenseless that they go straight after it, then I jump all available fleets into the system with their maxed out armor and then I lose anyway because I fucked up something else.
My fairly limited experience with fighting FEs implies that they won't use jump drives to bypass chokepoints, probably for the reason listed above. It's close to impossible to get a bastion to a fleet power that matches, much less beats, a FE fleet, so they just try to steamroll the stations.
And while I've never seen the AI use jump drives to get into combat (which would be a very bad idea given the 50% weapon damage debuff for 200 days after using them), I have seen it try to do so. It just gets stuck in a weird loop of charging the drives and then canceling them to fly to the system like normal. Not sure what to make of that.
In any case, a station in a pulsar system with defense platforms that use lots of energy weapons should fare well against FE ships, or, at least as well as a bastion can. I'd definitely plan to have ships back it up if at all possible. This could even be a rare case where having a second set of ship designs specifically for fighting in pulsar systems might make sense, although even here maybe not since said ships wouldn't be useful in assaults. It's too bad that there's no concept of system patrol boats. Can you even remove the hyperdrive from ships? I think you could before 2.0, but never tried. It would still be of limited value since the ships would eat up your naval capacity like normal, of course.
Post by: Nelia Hawk on September 05, 2018, 07:55:00 am
few months later they moved 3 systems to the left and were stuck again like that...
think they unstucked themself after my (player) friend joined their federation and i guess they all tried to join his fleet then.
but yea seen that happening a few times.
Post by: Kanil on September 05, 2018, 08:05:24 am
Can you even remove the hyperdrive from ships? I think you could before 2.0, but never tried. It would still be of limited value since the ships would eat up your naval capacity like normal, of course.
I'm pretty sure you still can, I recall noticing that appeared to be an option in my last game.
Not sure what kind of situation I'd have to be in where that makes sense, though...
Post by: Broseph Stalin on September 05, 2018, 09:54:22 am
My fairly limited experience with fighting FEs implies that they won't use jump drives to bypass chokepoints, probably for the reason listed above. It's close to impossible to get a bastion to a fleet power that matches, much less beats, a FE fleet, so they just try to steamroll the stations.
And while I've never seen the AI use jump drives to get into combat (which would be a very bad idea given the 50% weapon damage debuff for 200 days after using them), I have seen it try to do so. It just gets stuck in a weird loop of charging the drives and then canceling them to fly to the system like normal. Not sure what to make of that.
In any case, a station in a pulsar system with defense platforms that use lots of energy weapons should fare well against FE ships, or, at least as well as a bastion can. I'd definitely plan to have ships back it up if at all possible. This could even be a rare case where having a second set of ship designs specifically for fighting in pulsar systems might make sense, although even here maybe not since said ships wouldn't be useful in assaults. It's too bad that there's no concept of system patrol boats. Can you even remove the hyperdrive from ships? I think you could before 2.0, but never tried. It would still be of limited value since the ships would eat up your naval capacity like normal, of course.
Oh I have no delusions about the fort being enough. The plan was to have separate, armor/laser design for my fleet then retrofit the whole fleet when the storm comes. As long as they don't jump past it I can batter their fleet at Thermopylae until I get them weak enough to go on the offensive, then I'll retrofit back into more sensible designs.
I've seen the AI jump into combat but they were pretty much out of options. Their entire empire was totally occupied, their federation allies couldn't get within five systems of me because of closed borders and they couldn't just surrender because they were only 1/3 of a federation. I only ever jump into a fight with bare bones outposts. Baiting them into attack thermopylae and then jumping in a freakish number of ships would make a cool scene but if the fort does it's job they'll go after it whether it seems like a good idea or not.
Post by: Radsoc on September 06, 2018, 08:47:00 am
Post by: Broseph Stalin on September 06, 2018, 10:04:37 am
In other news I am definitely playing with marauders off from now on. I have a massive empire and on top of that most empires are my tributaries so just about every star in the sky is kicking 25% of it's energy and mineral wealth up to me. With all that I am still struggling to feed my war machine so no, Mr Khan you did NOT get a fleet as large as mine by pulling some "hidden" ships out of storage.
Post by: Cruxador on September 06, 2018, 10:12:53 am
"Galactic market" that's something to look forward to.This seems actually more like an AI boost that the player gets access to than something truly for the player. The AI had always has trouble with preparing adequate resources, most dramatically when it falls into a starvation spiral. This probably results from an inability to plan ahead, using instead hard-coded guidelines for success. Imagine how much worse this would be with all the new resources. The market will let the AI handily bypass the problem.
Post by: Radsoc on September 06, 2018, 10:19:47 am
Post by: Telgin on September 06, 2018, 10:21:19 am
"Galactic market" that's something to look forward to.
Agreed. I'm already looking forward to all of the improvements shown so far, but the teased features like trade routes and whatever the final galactic market looks like are making me even more anxious for the update. As others have said on the Paradox forums, it's making it hard to play the game as it is, which might be for the best since I've done little else lately on the days I've had free time.
One small note in the last dev diary was that unity and research costs are now penalized based on the number of districts instead of planets, which I'm very glad to see. I never liked skipping over small planets and was a (perhaps mistaken) believer that even the smallest planets were worth taking, but this makes that definitely correct now. Larger planets are still better since they require equal work to colonize for more space, and it sounds like they'll have a higher infrastructure cap that makes them better suited to specialist work, but you don't have to skip over a small planet completely now. They'll actually be useful for raw resource production, which has the interesting side effect of potentially making players want to redevelop larger planets into research or manufacturing hubs later on, while pushing off mining and farming work to new, smaller colonized planets.
The changes to habitats look really interesting too, but it's kind of early to tell how the changes will feel in game. They look to be smaller since they have only 6 districts by default, but that may feel like plenty in practice. I'm more curious to see what they end up doing with ringworlds.
This seems actually more like an AI boost that the player gets access to than something truly for the player. The AI had always has trouble with preparing adequate resources, most dramatically when it falls into a starvation spiral. This probably results from an inability to plan ahead, using instead hard-coded guidelines for success. Imagine how much worse this would be with all the new resources. The market will let the AI handily bypass the problem.
That's probably a nice side effect of it, but it at least looks like the intention was to make most empires at least somewhat dependent on each other to trade resources. Wiz didn't go into any detail at all, probably with the intention of holding that for a later dev diary, but he did specifically mention that machine empires were now designed to be self-sufficient, which implies it's in contrast to other kinds of empires. Of course, since that comment was right after mentioning that machine empires get extra jobs, and thus resource production, that means it's probably not going to be a case of empires being seriously shut out of certain resources.
I imagine that in practice players probably won't have much trouble building self-sufficient empires of any kind, but I guess we'll see.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on September 06, 2018, 02:38:42 pm
Five more battles, same result each time. I just hit too hard and too fast for them to do anything meaningful. Maybe if they made one huge push they could have really done some damage but these little battles have ruined them. Their fleet power is now "pathetic" compared to mine and the time to refit my ships and to seize their lands has come.
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 06, 2018, 03:22:56 pm
Post by: Teneb on September 06, 2018, 05:10:05 pm
EDIT: This is all I could find.
Quote from: A Paradox Dev
The intent of this is to more fully flesh out several of the key anomalies and events in Distant Stars, especially those relating to the L-Cluster.
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 06, 2018, 05:11:53 pm
Any detailed info on what has been added to Distant Stars? Trying to find it, but no luck.They haven't detailed everything, just that there are apparently some new outcomes for L-Cluster and some new events. Listing them would kind of spoil it tbh. I'm sure you could look through the files to find out.
EDIT: This is all I could find.Quote from: A Paradox DevThe intent of this is to more fully flesh out several of the key anomalies and events in Distant Stars, especially those relating to the L-Cluster.
Post by: Teneb on September 06, 2018, 05:16:35 pm
I was hoping for info on the lines of how many new event chains of each category, rather than the exact nature of those events.Any detailed info on what has been added to Distant Stars? Trying to find it, but no luck.They haven't detailed everything, just that there are apparently some new outcomes for L-Cluster and some new events. Listing them would kind of spoil it tbh. I'm sure you could look through the files to find out.
EDIT: This is all I could find.Quote from: A Paradox DevThe intent of this is to more fully flesh out several of the key anomalies and events in Distant Stars, especially those relating to the L-Cluster.
Post by: Cruxador on September 06, 2018, 06:39:39 pm
Post by: Trekkin on September 06, 2018, 06:47:03 pm
I do remember people finding the content if that DLC quite underwhelming when it came out. Hopefully this does something to alleviate that.
I've had a dead L-Cluster every time, so it's just a free if slow bunch of gateways for me and I usually forget it's there.
Post by: Culise on September 06, 2018, 10:01:18 pm
Well, I hope so, at least.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on September 07, 2018, 09:12:37 pm
It has massively underleveled shields and armor but the highest damage output weaponry I could muster. Whenever I take a sacking runty little outposts I like to leave one or two behind. They won't hold the system against any kind of real fleet but they tend to kill ships without giving them a chance to retreat. Since I went pure offense they cost half as much as one of my standard platforms in minerals and upkeep. Every system they take back means 2-3 ships, they're reducing occupation but it's costing them a lot of war exhaustion they aren't getting back.
Post by: Telgin on September 07, 2018, 09:28:19 pm
In my last game I was tempted to see how many repeatable techs it took to get a bastion to the point it could handle a fallen empire fleet. The Contingency corrupted the ancient caretakers, and they kept attacking me (to no avail), but I was curious how well my 50K bastions would fare against their 80K fleets. Probably not too well, but if I took the ascension perk for extra platforms, slapped on a defense grid super computer and then started actually researching the +10% platform damage techs, maybe eventually they'd kind of be able to handle one fleet.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on September 07, 2018, 10:36:57 pm
How much of a difference does it make to skimp on armor and shields? Were you competing with the weapons for power, or just trying to minimize cost? Unless something changed, defense platforms don't cost minerals to upkeep, but I guess cutting costs to build them helps when they're likely to die soon after the shooting actually starts.
In my last game I was tempted to see how many repeatable techs it took to get a bastion to the point it could handle a fallen empire fleet. The Contingency corrupted the ancient caretakers, and they kept attacking me (to no avail), but I was curious how well my 50K bastions would fare against their 80K fleets. Probably not too well, but if I took the ascension perk for extra platforms, slapped on a defense grid super computer and then started actually researching the +10% platform damage techs, maybe eventually they'd kind of be able to handle one fleet.
Platforms don't have any mineral upkeep but they do take energy. Cutting the armor and shields meant less build cost and energy per month and also let me use a cheapo power source, the energy consumption and the mineral cost are both half of a standard platform. They're totally disposable because either they're going to be destroyed the first time they see combat or they're going to survive and then be a pain in my ass when I have to take the system back. During my last war I had to get by on selling research agreements to stay out of the red.
I never really think of bastions as stand alone defense, I typically just use them as a place it really sucks to fight.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on September 08, 2018, 03:02:27 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 08, 2018, 07:18:58 pm
Wiz is doing one of his little LP things on Twitter.NOOT-NOOT
He's playing as a race of Pingus.
Post by: Telgin on September 08, 2018, 09:07:09 pm
The speed bump has been effective enough that it's changed my doctrine. I'm now slapping the biggest possible guns on all my ships, I don't hit as often and it's cost me a few fights but I'm not longer fighting decade long wars where nobody dies.
Yeah, I think this is common practice now, for that reason. Battleships with gigacannons and neutron launchers are good for that, because they give fewer chances for enemy ships to disengage. Most of the players on Paradox's forums seem to disdain defensive stations in general, but they seem to favor the station aura that decreases enemy disengagement chances.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on September 08, 2018, 09:54:59 pm
I've been using the FTL debuff from stations, black holes, and Titans and even all of them put together pale in comparison to just outfitting all of your ships with the biggest guns possible. I mean there's a lot of fun you can have setting up different designs to counter different things but there's no combination of techniques and tactics that works better than BFG all day every day.
Yeah, I think this is common practice now, for that reason. Battleships with gigacannons and neutron launchers are good for that, because they give fewer chances for enemy ships to disengage. Most of the players on Paradox's forums seem to disdain defensive stations in general, but they seem to favor the station aura that decreases enemy disengagement chances.
I mean it kind of bums me out because I really like designing fleets. I spent more time in X3 with a calculator working out how to outfit my carrier group than I did playing the game. I was intimidated by the ship designer, I spent a while reading about all the different mechanics and devising different fleet compositions and occasionally when I was out doing things I'd have an idea and I'd be all excited to get back home and play. It's really annoying that the emergency retreat mechanic means that the optimal strategy for any ship in any role is basically always the same.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on September 08, 2018, 11:02:41 pm
I've been using the FTL debuff from stations, black holes, and Titans and even all of them put together pale in comparison to just outfitting all of your ships with the biggest guns possible. I mean there's a lot of fun you can have setting up different designs to counter different things but there's no combination of techniques and tactics that works better than BFG all day every day.
Yeah, I think this is common practice now, for that reason. Battleships with gigacannons and neutron launchers are good for that, because they give fewer chances for enemy ships to disengage. Most of the players on Paradox's forums seem to disdain defensive stations in general, but they seem to favor the station aura that decreases enemy disengagement chances.
I mean it kind of bums me out because I really like designing fleets. I spent more time in X3 with a calculator working out how to outfit my carrier group than I did playing the game. I was intimidated by the ship designer, I spent a while reading about all the different mechanics and devising different fleet compositions and occasionally when I was out doing things I'd have an idea and I'd be all excited to get back home and play. It's really annoying that the emergency retreat mechanic means that the optimal strategy for any ship in any role is basically always the same.
Well, in Vanilla at least. With something like New Ship Classes or something similar, the situation may prove to be different.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on September 09, 2018, 09:48:52 am
Well, in Vanilla at least. With something like New Ship Classes or something similar, the situation may prove to be different.
I don't know about that I think it's an issue with the mechanics that could only be fixed by a change to the mechanics. You don't take war exhaustion for losing a battle, only for losing ships and you only lose ships when they fail to retreat. The way the retreat mechanic works is that every hit a target takes at 50% health gives them a chance to escape so if you're trying to sandblast something even with all the possible disengagement maluses they're probably getting away. The end result is threefold 1) It's possible to kick ass all across the galaxy and lose your war because you never killed anyone 2) Taking big bites is the absolute best way to kill ships instead of inconveniencing them 3) Any ship that isn't designed to take huge bites out of the enemy (Like a PD ship) is increasing the chances that the enemy will live to fight another day. So just because of how those mechanics intersect you need to destroy ships, the best way to do that is BFG spam, and variety is necessarily suboptimal.
In other news I found an exploit: If you get your strategic resources from a sector and that sector runs out of energy you lose access to them automatically cancelling any trade deals you had going with them. If you trade a strategic resource for energy up front you can basically rip off your trade partner. It would actually be really neat if that hurt the other empires opinion of you.
Post by: Rolan7 on September 09, 2018, 04:47:42 pm
I'm still excited to see the pop rework, but especially to see some fun new glitches with edge cases like Rogue Servitors.
And uh maybe they'll finally allow us to trade away food, at the very least. Being a machine = can't trade food to other realms... except enclaves...
It's almost an understandable oversight, except that they went out of their way to stop machines from trading food (why?) and it has this dumb side effect. All they have to do is remove this arbitrary restriction. And people pointed it out pretty quickly after Synthetic Dawn was released.
But they're busy, and I'm honestly looking forward to the pop rework a lot.
Edit: Not least because a lot of these freakin nutripaste factories were built on mineral land. I disabled "always follow tile bonuses", I didn't mean "build food on mineral tiles BEFORE FOOD TILES"
Post by: Telgin on September 09, 2018, 10:31:15 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on September 09, 2018, 11:28:55 pm
I believe it was explicitly confirmed that machine empires would be able to trade food after the economy rework. It is kind of weird that they can't trade it right now, since I would expect that to just be a limitation on determined exterminators since they won't do any trading with empires that would ever want food. But then you just wouldn't grow any, so... why even code in such a restriction?Presumably to just hard block any exploits that might arise. Although to be fair I can't really think of any way to so agressively trade food you actually cause damage or help your own civ, considering you wouldn't be eating it.
Although machine empires can't even build farms, can they? Yeah, it's weird.
Post by: Telgin on September 10, 2018, 09:04:09 am
It's pretty funny if true since it's still easy for the AI to plan for a positive monthly food budget, and seems like a silly way to try to stop that exploit if it's the case, but I've heard of stranger things.
Post by: Criptfeind on September 10, 2018, 09:12:40 am
Post by: Rolan7 on September 10, 2018, 09:22:32 am
Although machine empires can't even build farms, can they? Yeah, it's weird.Rogue Servitors are an exception, of course. I guess their 5-food Nutrient Paste Facility could be considered OP, or "not fit for the galactic food market". Enclaves like it just fine, though, and it's only an issue at all because the sector AI just WAY overshoots food production for whatever reason.
I don't know if its treating machine pops as eaters, or treating paste facilities as if they're basic hydroponics, but it's truly ridiculous. Even more so than with normal empires. It's bizarre that the AI has starvation issues when the sector AI is so obsessed with food surplus. Again, it was building paste facilities on 2-mineral squares - I should have left "respect tile resources on", granted, but that's still weird.
Post by: Teneb on September 10, 2018, 09:28:48 am
Post by: Telgin on September 10, 2018, 09:41:54 am
In any case, if it's related it's still clearly bugged. Sectors with 100 population shouldn't try to produce 200-300 food, and certainly not in a rogue servitor empire. My guess is that there's some heuristic that the sector AI uses to decide what to build when the respect tile resources option is turned off, and the value is being badly miscalculated somewhere.
The good news is that this will probably all be redone in the planetary + economy rework patch. Whether it'll actually be fixed is a different question, but there's hope.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on September 10, 2018, 10:25:47 am
To that end I've created my genetic masterwork: The Big Stupid Jellyfish. It's a non-nerve stapled offshoot of the Bakturian Meat Snail, the most popular livestock in the Commonwealth that is itself a nerve-stapled offshoot of the Bakturians whose attempt at a slave rebellion had less than positive results for their species. Just like the Meat Snail was engineered to be succulent, plentiful, and docile the BSJ's have been modded to be just the biggest dicks. They're a race of contrarian depressives who suck at farming and get bummed out when they don't have any slaves. I'm going to cram 78 of the bastards into six habitats in a border system and trade it to the fanatic xenophiles next door.
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 10, 2018, 12:11:02 pm
It'd make locust pop'in AI empires even more hilarious, like a species of arsehole kind depressive slavers
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 11, 2018, 10:36:15 am
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DmwYFadXcAIwJrB.jpg)
Post by: Criptfeind on September 11, 2018, 10:44:29 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 11, 2018, 10:55:26 am
Post by: Criptfeind on September 11, 2018, 11:04:08 am
Post by: Teneb on September 11, 2018, 12:13:22 pm
Post by: Telgin on September 11, 2018, 12:38:13 pm
In any case, that's all going to be redone in the next version, where the costs are going to be based off of an "empire size" metric which is supposedly going to be based on the number of districts you have first and foremost. That's good because it'll mean small planets are no longer disproportionately bad to take, but it's unclear exactly how much impact the number of systems you have will impact the number.
Post by: Criptfeind on September 11, 2018, 03:07:54 pm
Isn't the cost of traditions also based off of planets and systems, just like technology?
Yeah, last I checked it was a different equation that comes out to a different balancing point, for unity a fairly high but limited number of planets was ideal, for research you never actually would increase the cost of a tech by enough by adding a planet that it wasn't worth it outside of having a Science Nexus (thus the one planet strategy) but for both it counts systems and planets.
For research costs I'm pretty sure it's just +1% to the base technology cost per system after your first, which is easily offset by research stations in those systems. I guess for really crappy mineral or energy only systems it would be tempting to skip or delete them if you don't care about the pirates.
Nah, in the mid to late game, even pretty good orbital research simply isn't worth it. As your technology increases you'll have more and better research labs per planet, vastly decreasing the relative value of orbital research but the cost of the system remains the same. This is pretty easy to see if you have a game with a well developed and expansive empire, just delete all your systems and watch your research skyrocket.
In any case, that's all going to be redone in the next version, where the costs are going to be based off of an "empire size" metric which is supposedly going to be based on the number of districts you have first and foremost. That's good because it'll mean small planets are no longer disproportionately bad to take, but it's unclear exactly how much impact the number of systems you have will impact the number.
I'm sure it's been said (although not 100% sure where) that empire size is going to be based off districts and systems, not sure about districts first and foremost or any numbers on that, right now colonies are the biggest single impacts, but since you have so many more systems then colonies systems still end up being a bigger deal. So systems not worth having in the late game is probably still going to an issue, at least unless they have plenty of the orbital increase. It might actually be worse though, the ability to build up planets more then just the basic x pops on x buildings might make planets even more powerful relative to orbitals, maybe.
Post by: Telgin on September 11, 2018, 03:43:11 pm
I used a vague approximation of my last game's numbers to figure up the research time for a first tier repeatable and came up with the fact that any system with less than +5 research to every field (i.e. basically no system except a forerunner home system with +10 to everything) was hurting my research in some tiny amount. A +5 system was about the breakeven point for one field, and a +4 system increased research time by about 0.1%, with a +2 system increasing it by about 0.15%. I've seen a system go as high as +12 in one field before, but even if I found one like that per field, which might be almost impossible for society research, I'd still be losing out by a tiny fraction in the end.
The numbers are highly dependent on the contribution from planets though. I'd try to model it to find some kind of equation that could tell you where to balance it, but it depends a lot on the output per planet and isn't really simple to do because of that.
In the end, I'll just take the small hits aesthetic's sake, even if they add up for having so many systems. It does tempt me to try to play a truly tall empire for a change though, or play as a pseudo fallen empire. Even in my life-seeded game I ended up with like 45 worlds + habitats and like 80 systems by the time the crisis hit...
Post by: Dunamisdeos on September 11, 2018, 03:54:30 pm
Those are the games where my tech goes nuts.
Post by: Criptfeind on September 13, 2018, 08:40:13 am
I don't think this tells us anything we didn't already know about the market, except how the market founder works (sounds like if you want to be the market founder, you'll have to explore a lot early game so your first to find half the races) and how trader enclaves will work since they are basically being replaced by the market.
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 13, 2018, 12:20:46 pm
Quote
This Market Fee is there so that it will not be possible to make money by purchasing and then immediately re-selling resources at a higher price. Resources can be purchased either in bulk, or by setting up a monthly trade, where you for example specify that you want to sell 20 food and buy 10 minerals per month, and can set a minimum sale/maximum purchase price, if you want to ensure that major fluctuations in price do not disrupt your empire's economy too much.Yeah nah I'm modding out that market fee immediately to play money grubbing materialists. Finally hoarding up that delicious energy will feel irresponsible and greedy
Post by: Radsoc on September 13, 2018, 12:25:38 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 13, 2018, 12:52:05 pm
Not sure if I like their design choices. Resources shouldn't appear magically (endless market supply) nor should there be a market fee that goes to nobody. Sure, if the fee was used to keep some stock, then that's ok, but just deleting things and creating them in and out of the game is lazy.It's be much cooler if Empires could found their own galactic market exchanges, with each Empire choosing to set their own external tariffs to orders. That way market forces could organically operate in Stellaris, so an inwards perfection market exchange with 100% tariffs will operate different from a corporate dominion with 0%, while the market fee would go to the Empire and not just vanish
Post by: Criptfeind on September 13, 2018, 01:21:29 pm
Post by: Telgin on September 13, 2018, 06:57:25 pm
Overall I was hoping it would be a bit more deep, such as having multiple competing galactic markets, trade sanctions, embargoes and so on. I guess a lot of that would be really hard to implement in the current diplomatic model anyway.
I'm also not thrilled about the infinite resource supply and sink of the market, but I get that it's probably very hard to make it work any other way with this level of AI.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on September 13, 2018, 07:55:57 pm
For example, the base-line cost of a resource would be dependent on how much production of that resource that everyone has. More production, whether concentrated in a single nation or spread out among many, would lower the base-line cost. Buying and selling resources would obviously jump the price up or down, but it'd slowly return to the base-line over time because private investors or something. Resources still come out of nowhere but since they're based on production it is related to the galactic economy in a way.
More importantly, it'd let you have multiple competing markets instead of a single global one that everyone is involved with. Pissed at your neighbours? Leave their market and join their rival's. Devouring Swarm? Fanatic Purifiers? Good luck joining a market in the first place.
It's an idea at least. Probably not a good one but...
Post by: Criptfeind on September 13, 2018, 09:25:48 pm
I do hope that someday we'll see a trade rework, that they treat this update as the planet economy rework and don't get too married to the upcoming system. Given how much work has gone into planets I could totally understand if this market system is the best they could do in this update and it needs to be how it is for a few years (go into diplomacy next year, then revisit trade in 2020?) but I think it'd really enrich the game to give it more depth someday. Also the DLC for trade wars almost writes itself with various economic system civics.
Post by: Cruxador on September 13, 2018, 09:48:50 pm
I'm not 100% against markets being infinite but I would be much, much happier if they were based on the economies of the nations involved in them.Well, if nations make regular use of the market, then in practice the rates are based on economies. The only difference between this and your production-based version is that this way also takes energy production into account, whereas yours doesn't, and would need an extra mechanic tacked on to prevent energy from becoming the only resource that mattered.
As for implementing embargoes... Yeah, there sound be done way to do it, which right now it sounds like there isn't. I imagine xenophobes will get a bad market rate regardless, but that's a less dynamic way to interact with the new system.
There's a trade rework coming, which is separate from this galactic market. It's even mentioned in the dev diary as something that will be discussed later. So far we know that it represents primarily civilian trade and that economic activity on a planet increases the planet's trade value, and that's pretty much all we know.
I do hope that someday we'll see a trade rework, that they treat this update as the planet economy rework and don't get too married to the upcoming system. Given how much work has gone into planets I could totally understand if this market system is the best they could do in this update and it needs to be how it is for a few years (go into diplomacy next year, then revisit trade in 2020?) but I think it'd really enrich the game to give it more depth someday. Also the DLC for trade wars almost writes itself with various economic system civics.
Post by: BurnedToast on September 14, 2018, 12:05:30 am
Not sure if I like their design choices. Resources shouldn't appear magically (endless market supply) nor should there be a market fee that goes to nobody. Sure, if the fee was used to keep some stock, then that's ok, but just deleting things and creating them in and out of the game is lazy.
The resources are so unbalanced in stellaris that if it didn't generate free stuff from nothing, it would never get used. Because let's be honest - we all want it to get more minerals. Who would ever sell it minerals? Nobody, ever, in any situation. Even if your mineral storage is full it would be dumb to sell it minerals because that's more minerals for your enemy to buy.
Anyway, I think you're missing the point. This is obviously primarily intended as a band-aid fix for the idiot AI that can't manage it's economy properly. Now it can "legitimately" create resources from nothing.
Post by: Cruxador on September 14, 2018, 01:06:19 am
Ah, but you're failing to consider that there'll be loads of new resources now. So it could very much be worth selling minerals to free up some dosh for buying alloys or dark matter or what have you.Not sure if I like their design choices. Resources shouldn't appear magically (endless market supply) nor should there be a market fee that goes to nobody. Sure, if the fee was used to keep some stock, then that's ok, but just deleting things and creating them in and out of the game is lazy.
The resources are so unbalanced in stellaris that if it didn't generate free stuff from nothing, it would never get used. Because let's be honest - we all want it to get more minerals. Who would ever sell it minerals? Nobody, ever, in any situation. Even if your mineral storage is full it would be dumb to sell it minerals because that's more minerals for your enemy to buy.
Quote
Anyway, I think you're missing the point. This is obviously primarily intended as a band-aid fix for the idiot AI that can't manage it's economy properly. Now it can "legitimately" create resources from nothing.I reckon there'll be a fair few players who'll benefit from this as well, though. Even considering that you do in fact also pay resources for nothing, since there's that 30% "house's cut" boosting prices.
Post by: BurnedToast on September 14, 2018, 02:43:14 am
Ah, but you're failing to consider that there'll be loads of new resources now. So it could very much be worth selling minerals to free up some dosh for buying alloys or dark matter or what have you.Not sure if I like their design choices. Resources shouldn't appear magically (endless market supply) nor should there be a market fee that goes to nobody. Sure, if the fee was used to keep some stock, then that's ok, but just deleting things and creating them in and out of the game is lazy.
The resources are so unbalanced in stellaris that if it didn't generate free stuff from nothing, it would never get used. Because let's be honest - we all want it to get more minerals. Who would ever sell it minerals? Nobody, ever, in any situation. Even if your mineral storage is full it would be dumb to sell it minerals because that's more minerals for your enemy to buy.
It depends on how the other resources work, I suppose, but considering stellaris has been about "quantity over quality" in every aspect since day 1, I'm skeptical that having a few extra ships that get +10 damage because of "dark matter missiles" (or however it ends up working) is going to be meaningful in any way.
But, aside from that, the point still remains. Let's say dark matter is "worth it", then who's going to sell the market dark matter? Nobody, ever, because it ends up in the same situation as minerals - even if your storage is full you don't want to sell it so your enemies can't have it. And even if the AI is dumb enough to sell it for some reason, you aren't going to use minerals to buy it. You're going to use useless excess food, or maybe excess energy or one of the "weaker" new resources. So the only time the market ever gets used is when the AI is dumb enough to sell it something good, and it ends up full of trash nobody wants.
If stellaris had more variations for all the resources it could work - for example imagine a race that was 100% biological and used minimal to no minerals. Then it could work because they'd be unloading all the excess minerals they got (from space mining or w/e), and people would buy them with food which the biological race would buy up to make more ships. But everyone is the same, and uses the same resources in basically the same ratios except robots who don't need food... which devalues the already lowest value resource even more. So there's no real purpose to a galactic market that does not magically create resources, because everyone needs the same thing.
I reckon there'll be a fair few players who'll benefit from this as well, though. Even considering that you do in fact also pay resources for nothing, since there's that 30% "house's cut" boosting prices.
Oh I'm sure players will use it, because generating free minerals from nothing in exchange for useless excess food or energy is valuable. That does not mean it's the main purpose, which is probably "AI crutch".
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 14, 2018, 03:58:41 am
Minerals don't do much on their own under the new economy, the real gold standard will be alloys. There's no real reason not to export extra minerals beyond your foundry capacity to turn them into alloys because basic minerals won't be used for much beyond making luxury goods, some planet buildings, and other basic things. Ships will need alloys, and ships are what you need to project any kind of force.Not sure if I like their design choices. Resources shouldn't appear magically (endless market supply) nor should there be a market fee that goes to nobody. Sure, if the fee was used to keep some stock, then that's ok, but just deleting things and creating them in and out of the game is lazy.
The resources are so unbalanced in stellaris that if it didn't generate free stuff from nothing, it would never get used. Because let's be honest - we all want it to get more minerals. Who would ever sell it minerals? Nobody, ever, in any situation. Even if your mineral storage is full it would be dumb to sell it minerals because that's more minerals for your enemy to buy.
Now exporting alloys would be silly indeed unless you have a massive oversupply but I suppose you could specialize your economy to alloy production and just buy all of your food.
Post by: Radsoc on September 14, 2018, 04:56:35 am
Post by: BurnedToast on September 14, 2018, 05:49:50 am
Minerals don't do much on their own under the new economy, the real gold standard will be alloys. There's no real reason not to export extra minerals beyond your foundry capacity to turn them into alloys because basic minerals won't be used for much beyond making luxury goods, some planet buildings, and other basic things. Ships will need alloys, and ships are what you need to project any kind of force.Not sure if I like their design choices. Resources shouldn't appear magically (endless market supply) nor should there be a market fee that goes to nobody. Sure, if the fee was used to keep some stock, then that's ok, but just deleting things and creating them in and out of the game is lazy.
The resources are so unbalanced in stellaris that if it didn't generate free stuff from nothing, it would never get used. Because let's be honest - we all want it to get more minerals. Who would ever sell it minerals? Nobody, ever, in any situation. Even if your mineral storage is full it would be dumb to sell it minerals because that's more minerals for your enemy to buy.
Now exporting alloys would be silly indeed unless you have a massive oversupply but I suppose you could specialize your economy to alloy production and just buy all of your food.
Hmmm... did I miss a dev diary or something that explained what alloys (or any of the other new resources) will actually do? Last I heard it was all very vague and it basically came down to "they will be used for... stuff".
But if minerals must be turned into alloys before using, then yeah it just moves it down a step and alloys become the important thing no-one sells.
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 14, 2018, 05:59:37 am
Post by: Broseph Stalin on September 14, 2018, 06:44:30 am
The resources are so unbalanced in stellaris that if it didn't generate free stuff from nothing, it would never get used. Because let's be honest - we all want it to get more minerals. Who would ever sell it minerals? Nobody, ever, in any situation. Even if your mineral storage is full it would be dumb to sell it minerals because that's more minerals for your enemy to buy.
Anyway, I think you're missing the point. This is obviously primarily intended as a band-aid fix for the idiot AI that can't manage it's economy properly. Now it can "legitimately" create resources from nothing.
I often sell minerals... Usually at a loss to arm my enemies and prolong their pointless wars so I can mop them up.
Post by: Criptfeind on September 14, 2018, 07:37:08 am
There's a trade rework coming, which is separate from this galactic market. It's even mentioned in the dev diary as something that will be discussed later. So far we know that it represents primarily civilian trade and that economic activity on a planet increases the planet's trade value, and that's pretty much all we know.
This is true, and trade value could, if it interacts with the galactic market in an interesting enough way, could soothe many of my 'mehs' about it, but I think there's still a kinda fundamental lack of depth to what we've been shown that's not going to be fixed by whatever trade value is. Well, probably. You're pretty much right that I shouldn't get too critical until we actually see trade value, maybe it's way more then I'm expecting. But I'm just a critical person :P
Anyway, as for the discussion on the lack of value for certain base goods and the lack of goods in general, with the new support for modding that's being put in, I have high hopes for economic complexity mods. In my current game I'm playing a mod that, since I'm a hivemind, replaces half the mineral costs of buildings with food, and the energy upkeep for buildings with food. It's a cool mod that makes it feel very different and more interesting to balance farms vs other concerns. At least, early game. Since ships aren't touched I'm starting to get the point you get too in every game where your fleet is your biggest economic concern, which is starting to eclipse the hivemind economy with the needs of a normal one where it's mostly just mines and power plants. But I'm hoping we'll see even better mods in future where even more things are made of food, and maybe some sorts of energy races that make shit out of energy. Maybe psi ascended or certain techs can use energy instead of minerals and Bio ascended can use food. With such a mod (if it gets anywhere near to balancing the core resources) I'd also hope, maybe just maybe, it might be possible to make it so that there is the ability to specialize your nation to the point where it makes economic sense to make and export one resource as you import the others. I don't think the devs are going to ever really do that, too hard to balance and such, but it'd be interesting to see civics that are like, +40% to one basic resource in exchange for big minuses too the others.
I'm also hopping to see some space Vicky style mod with just tons and tons of resources. I've seen mods in stellaris that already try to do that, with lots of smaller relatively rare resources and then resources tied to ethics, but it was sorta meh in the end because they had to be implemented as rare resources, so you really only needed to to a tiny bit of trading to get 1 each. Although I'm not sure if there's any way to create geographically based scarcity, something I think would be great for encouraging trade. (No need to buy tea from space India if it also grows just fine in space Canada.) Although you can probably restrict it to certain planet types, which will help a little bit in the early to mid game as species are generally tied to their own planet trio.
Post by: Cruxador on September 14, 2018, 09:29:41 am
Hmmm... did I miss a dev diary or something that explained what alloys (or any of the other new resources) will actually do? Last I heard it was all very vague and it basically came down to "they will be used for... stuff".I suspect he's gotten that from a stream, actually, the one where Wiz went over the planetary rework and a few other things, and answered questions. He's not exactly correct though. Alloys are necessary for ships, but you still win need minerals to build planetside.
But if minerals must be turned into alloys before using, then yeah it just moves it down a step and alloys become the important thing no-one sells.
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 14, 2018, 02:28:14 pm
He's not exactly correct though. Alloys are necessary for ships, but you still win need minerals to build planetside.I did say that...
And yes I got most of that from the dev stream.
Post by: Telgin on September 17, 2018, 09:31:24 am
I guess I was asking for it by only having 20 corvettes in 2300, but at least the AI is as dumb as ever and my fleet was vastly technologically superior. That corvette fleet was overpowering fleets with 10 cruisers and a smattering of destroyers and corvettes. In the end I only temporarily lost one system, which was easily rectified, and lost maybe 5 ships through the whole war. I think the funniest part was in the third war that empire declared on me, where they never even left their borders because my border stations were stronger than their fleets. They sat there until their war exhaustion ramped up to 80% or so, at which point they sent two 6K fleets at one 10K station, except they didn't send them at the same time so the first fleet was pounded into dust, followed by the second fleet when it arrived two months later.
I'd have had a stronger fleet by then if I wasn't sinking all of my minerals into an early science nexus. This is the tallest build I've done yet, and it's punishing trying to get 30K minerals saved up for each stage of the nexus when you're only pulling in ~250 per month. In the end I don't think I beat my previous science nexus record by much. I started building it in ~2305, but I don't think I finished it until about 2335, since I was always short on minerals.
Last time I was held up by unity, keeping me from getting the Galactic Wonders ascension perk until about 2315, so this time I avoided droid colonizing nearby planets. That did work, and I got my perks (and tech) faster, but the minerals from those planets is sorely missed now. I ended up building habitats as soon as I unlocked Voidborne, and I really probably should have put some astro mining bays in them instead of filling them with labs and solar plants...
This is a very interesting optimization problem.
Post by: Karnewarrior on September 19, 2018, 02:29:45 pm
Like Telgin said, the AI currently doesn't attack unless the player is incredibly pathetic, and when they do attack they just don't get any kind of strategy beyond rushing you with the biggest ships they can build. There needs to be better AI both for overall strategy, and for fleet comp balance. It needs to react to the player, because right now it's like fighting a pillowcase stuffed with bricks; it moves when you hit it, but in really simple and predictable ways.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on September 19, 2018, 02:34:15 pm
AI reworkdo ho ho ho
Post by: Telgin on September 19, 2018, 02:51:16 pm
Like Telgin said, the AI currently doesn't attack unless the player is incredibly pathetic, and when they do attack they just don't get any kind of strategy beyond rushing you with the biggest ships they can build.
Does the AI even refit ships to counter yours? I'd be pretty surprised if it did, but I did see the enemy using more PD in my fourth defensive war against them, which reduced the effectiveness of my torpedo corvettes appreciably.
In any case, I think at least part of the problem here is that there's not a ton of strategizing that can be done in the current state of the game, at least once the war starts. Oftentimes the best strategy does boil down to just sending the biggest fleet you can to wreck theirs and take whatever systems you can on the way. There's also not a ton of differentiation between ship classes, it feels like, hence the common suggestion to go all corvettes or all battleships, and to not mix fleets because they travel at the speed of the slowest ship.
Then again, maybe it's much different against human players, who I could see actually doing interesting things like using corvette fleets to harass on a second front while you try to focus on their main attack fleet. I think the AI tries to do something like this, but it tends to end up just splitting its (mixed) fleets down the middle and sending them into battles they can't win.
In other news, I finally learned how to apply claims and take systems in status quos in defensive wars. I tried to play nice with the robots next door, but I figured after 4 wars, it's time to start giving out paddlings. It never felt so good to see the little red skull icon on their pops on that planet I took. They're not even genocidal robots. They just hate me for being a mild xenophobe. I even opened my borders to them to try to be nice! This is one of the rare moments I can see Stellaris being great for RP potential. I'm seriously tempted to try to reform my government away from internal perfectionists to something more hostile so I can pay them back for the trouble they've caused me, and stop building synths on the pretense that the population should probably be distrustful of sapient robots by this point...
Post by: Egan_BW on September 19, 2018, 03:15:01 pm
Post by: umiman on September 19, 2018, 03:45:51 pm
The devs heard that the players wanted better AI, so they did an expansion with Machine Empires~Get out.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on September 19, 2018, 03:47:56 pm
I've heard players complain that the AI was always outfitted to counter them, I've never really noticed though. I think there's actually quite a bit of room for simple tactics in Stellaris, you can use corvettes to open up second fronts, build defense platforms to make reclaiming systems painful, try seizing and holding shipyards to reinforce from, station a massive invasion force on planets with strongholds to render the system impassable without a huge ground battle, waiting to enter a contested system until the starbase has stripped the enemy shields, targeting systems that produce the most resources, splitting off corvettes to raise hell ahead of the heavies, leaving ships behind to cover your retreat; obviously actually programming these things is harder than thinking of them but some more strategy for the AI should be totally doable.
Does the AI even refit ships to counter yours? I'd be pretty surprised if it did, but I did see the enemy using more PD in my fourth defensive war against them, which reduced the effectiveness of my torpedo corvettes appreciably.
In any case, I think at least part of the problem here is that there's not a ton of strategizing that can be done in the current state of the game, at least once the war starts. Oftentimes the best strategy does boil down to just sending the biggest fleet you can to wreck theirs and take whatever systems you can on the way. There's also not a ton of differentiation between ship classes, it feels like, hence the common suggestion to go all corvettes or all battleships, and to not mix fleets because they travel at the speed of the slowest ship.
Then again, maybe it's much different against human players, who I could see actually doing interesting things like using corvette fleets to harass on a second front while you try to focus on their main attack fleet. I think the AI tries to do something like this, but it tends to end up just splitting its (mixed) fleets down the middle and sending them into battles they can't win.
In other news, I finally learned how to apply claims and take systems in status quos in defensive wars. I tried to play nice with the robots next door, but I figured after 4 wars, it's time to start giving out paddlings. It never felt so good to see the little red skull icon on their pops on that planet I took. They're not even genocidal robots. They just hate me for being a mild xenophobe. I even opened my borders to them to try to be nice! This is one of the rare moments I can see Stellaris being great for RP potential. I'm seriously tempted to try to reform my government away from internal perfectionists to something more hostile so I can pay them back for the trouble they've caused me, and stop building synths on the pretense that the population should probably be distrustful of sapient robots by this point...
Post by: Karnewarrior on September 19, 2018, 04:09:45 pm
I still want to play a Fermi Paradox game that isn't boring as hell.
But as it is right now, the AI doesn't seem to react. That's the main problem. There's no reaction to player action beyond "If War = true Then Move.Fleet_1 Enemy Homeworld", and it's pathetic. In Galciv, AI empires don't just react to the player declaring war on them, but on the player looking like they're gearing up for war, the player sending them silly trades is taken as an insult, technology in general is taken into account, not just military tech, all that. Paradox has better AI in different games, so I wonder why Stellaris AI feels so bland?
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 19, 2018, 05:23:13 pm
Edit: Wait nevermind, I'm using an AI mod I think.
Post by: Telgin on September 20, 2018, 10:35:07 am
I was hoping for more details, but what was mentioned looks like a real step in the right direction at least. I'm glad the core sector limit is gone because I always contorted my ways around trying to bypass it anyway. I'm glad to see that factions now grant influence in a more fluid fashion as well. Scaling leader costs are nice too.
I think I really like the stellar county approach for sectors too, but a fair number of people seem to dislike it. I can understand how the notion of geography is kind of vague in space and redrawing sectors has some occasional uses, but I do think this will lead to better possibilities in the future. As one comment noted, we might see CBs for claiming all systems in a contested sector now, kind of like duchies in CKII.
Post by: Cruxador on September 20, 2018, 10:55:18 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 20, 2018, 11:44:05 am
Considering that hyperlanes are already grouped into de facto "province" regions, I think this is fine. It's basically just Victoria states.
and eu4 states, and ck2 duchies... it's unsurprising they decided to go this way.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on September 20, 2018, 12:21:42 pm
New dev diary: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-126-sectors-and-factions-in-2-2.1120288/ (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-126-sectors-and-factions-in-2-2.1120288/)I always put everything I could in sectors, it's a handy way to keep a resource buffer.
I was hoping for more details, but what was mentioned looks like a real step in the right direction at least. I'm glad the core sector limit is gone because I always contorted my ways around trying to bypass it anyway. I'm glad to see that factions now grant influence in a more fluid fashion as well. Scaling leader costs are nice too.
I think I really like the stellar county approach for sectors too, but a fair number of people seem to dislike it. I can understand how the notion of geography is kind of vague in space and redrawing sectors has some occasional uses, but I do think this will lead to better possibilities in the future. As one comment noted, we might see CBs for claiming all systems in a contested sector now, kind of like duchies in CKII.
Post by: Telgin on September 20, 2018, 12:51:27 pm
The main reason I avoid sectors right now is because of the poor AI choices. If I tell the AI to respect tile bonuses then it produces all the food ever and builds nothing but engineering facilities on science tiles, but if I tell it to do whatever it wants then it builds things in stupid places. And either way, if I tell it to build robots, it puts them in the worst places. Droids on monuments while the weak organics work the mines? Must be a great idea. And either way, it'll build things I really wish it wouldn't, like clone vats.
You can override its decisions, but it's a pain, and you can't even build up the initial set of all buildings on a new colony because you have to upgrade a ship shelter after 5 pops before you can build things like mineral processing plants or paradise domes.
..although, now that I think about it, you can create sectors without planets, right? So you could set up sectors over worthless systems and just send the sector minerals or energy credits whenever you're getting close to your cap. Arguably more useful than resource silos.
Post by: Rolan7 on September 20, 2018, 01:22:21 pm
And yeah, the inability to plan construction ahead of time is pretty horrible. I see automating the tile game as the main benefit, because it lets the game literally bearable past very early game. Even though the sector AI makes absurd decisions.
Would be cool to set production targets for sectors... Preferably via sliders. Increase the "mineral" slider, and see a prediction of the construction costs, time required, and changes to other resource production.
But actually I'm amazed at how much they're overhauling in this update, I think it's going to be great! Hard to make suggestions when so much is going to be different.
Post by: Kanil on September 20, 2018, 02:35:33 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on September 20, 2018, 02:56:18 pm
Idea: They could vary depending on the government structure. In Empires? They're literally feudal realms. In Corporate Oligarchies, they're Subdivisions and their leaders can get promoted to Emperor if they're economically productive. In Democracies, they are Sectors with local politics based on the factions that are most common there. In gestalt consciences, they are subconciences and are prone to splitting off if your Influence gets too low, so you need to balance expansion with control.
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 20, 2018, 03:24:08 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on September 20, 2018, 05:22:40 pm
Post by: Cruxador on September 20, 2018, 06:20:39 pm
EU4 states are based on Victoria states also. CK duchies are similar only in basic concept, but only are really relevant as titles and du jour associations, they don't have any inherent economic or structural effect and dukes can hold anything regardless of du jour.Considering that hyperlanes are already grouped into de facto "province" regions, I think this is fine. It's basically just Victoria states.
and eu4 states, and ck2 duchies... it's unsurprising they decided to go this way.
It makes sense to me that sectors are tied to the galaxy's geometry rather than arbitrarily defined but I was hoping sectors would be more important to internal politics, like varying faction acceptance and power by sector for example.Yeah, same. One step at a time, maybe.
Post by: Karnewarrior on September 20, 2018, 07:18:04 pm
Sectors aren't bad because of what they are, they are bad because they aren't like vassals in CK2. They should be subservient but independent legislative units which EVERYBODY needs to deal with.I like that idea. It would make different governments feel different, and since ethos restricts government type sometimes, would make a step towards making different ethos feel different too.
Idea: They could vary depending on the government structure. In Empires? They're literally feudal realms. In Corporate Oligarchies, they're Subdivisions and their leaders can get promoted to Emperor if they're economically productive. In Democracies, they are Sectors with local politics based on the factions that are most common there. In gestalt consciences, they are subconciences and are prone to splitting off if your Influence gets too low, so you need to balance expansion with control.
I'd like to see something more organic though, perhaps allowing each empire to designate sectors but making them permanent. I don't know how that would work though. I would also like to see the AI have to deal with them too, especially if they're more rebellious than they are now (I have not, in any of my games, ever had a rebellion).
Post by: umiman on September 20, 2018, 11:58:55 pm
I've never had one either, but the AI gets them all the time due to their inability to feed themselves.Sectors aren't bad because of what they are, they are bad because they aren't like vassals in CK2. They should be subservient but independent legislative units which EVERYBODY needs to deal with.I like that idea. It would make different governments feel different, and since ethos restricts government type sometimes, would make a step towards making different ethos feel different too.
Idea: They could vary depending on the government structure. In Empires? They're literally feudal realms. In Corporate Oligarchies, they're Subdivisions and their leaders can get promoted to Emperor if they're economically productive. In Democracies, they are Sectors with local politics based on the factions that are most common there. In gestalt consciences, they are subconciences and are prone to splitting off if your Influence gets too low, so you need to balance expansion with control.
I'd like to see something more organic though, perhaps allowing each empire to designate sectors but making them permanent. I don't know how that would work though. I would also like to see the AI have to deal with them too, especially if they're more rebellious than they are now (I have not, in any of my games, ever had a rebellion).
Post by: Broseph Stalin on September 21, 2018, 07:00:50 am
I've only had one because of a slave revolt. I wanted a vassal who didn't share my ideology so I filled a planet with slaves and started purging some of them.
Post by: Telgin on September 26, 2018, 10:32:10 am
The dev diary covering all of this should be tomorrow I think, but the teasers about piracy are particularly interesting. I wonder if the notion of pirate bases and explicit pirate fleets will be gone completely in the update, which I'm torn over. On one hand, it's kind of ridiculous that the pirates can spawn with a bigger fleet of better ships than the player in the first few decades, but on the other it can be fun to fight them when not much else is going on early game. In most of my games, pirates were the only thing I fought until the crisis hit.
Relatedly, I'll jump on the bandwagon of wishing for civilian ships in systems, but I'll be very, very surprised if they add something like that.
On another note, in my last game I did actually get lots of defensive wars. That led to the amusing and somewhat frustrating scenario where the spiritualist awakened empire declared war on my for the fourth time, so I decided to bomb and take their homeworld to set an example. Immediately after doing so, one of my admirals founded a spiritualist faction in my materialist empire, which is sitting at 0% happiness. I can't tell if she was just moved by the plight of the octopus men she'd just helped bomb into submission, or if she'd forgotten all of the ships they destroyed in the last 3 wars she was in with them...
That's what I get for trying to occupy a planet with spiritualist pops, I guess.
Edit: link to the dev diary (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-127-trade-value-and-trade-routes.1121266/).
I'm not so sure about requiring all trade to route to the capital system, but I can understand the mechanical reasons for it. It would also give me a reason to move my capital world, which in the past I've only ever done because of the achievement for putting one on a ringworld.
I do really like that hangars on starbases will help combat piracy, since it gives me a reason to build them now. The overall changes to piracy look pretty good, and it looks like they will be keeping pirate fleets under some circumstances.
Hopefully the need to patrol trade routes with your fleets will also open up some variation in fleets and give us reasons to build things other than battleships and corvettes. My suspicion is that battleships will be the worst choice for it, although maybe carrier cruisers will be the best, again giving a reason to build such things.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 27, 2018, 10:43:03 am
all trade leading to capital has some pretty specific political implications
Post by: Teneb on September 27, 2018, 02:17:39 pm
Post by: Telgin on September 27, 2018, 02:22:57 pm
QuoteQ: Why is trade value wasted, if sent to a (fully developed) world with billions of your people, instead to your homeworld?
A: We're considering the ability to add additional collection points, but we don't want to make this easy as then there would be no need for long trade routes ever.
Just for the "All trade routes to the capital" complaint. Seems to be a gamey change, not a roleplay change. Wonder if there may be some civic stuff relating to trade hubs.
I'm expecting civics, ascension perks and maybe even technologies that grant extra trade centers. Maybe for most empires it will be limited to one or two, but an empire focused on it might have half a dozen or so. It's possible, anyway.
Wiz also mentioned visualizing trade, which means maybe we will actually see civilian ships. I'll still be surprised, but maybe.
I also saw a comment about how ecumenopolises have yet to be confirmed as a feature, and yet have been teased before a few times, which implies that the feature may be locked behind DLC. If so, I'm trying to guess what else that DLC would unlock. I would say trade related civics and ascension perks for making trade empires, but that doesn't really seem worth a DLC either.
Post by: Kanil on September 27, 2018, 07:22:18 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on September 27, 2018, 07:54:41 pm
About trade value, I'm a little bit disappointed that it's just retextured energy production that you need to hop though a few hoops though. I can only imagine that all your civilians have an upper body workout regime that involves cranking up a magnet connected to a battery, that then gets shipped off to your capital to be plugged into your rulers personal vibrating massage chair. It makes sense that there won't be trade between empires, because it's really too simplistic a mechanic to make that in any way satisfying I think... Either it generates free energy and is a no brainier bonus for people with friends, or it doesn't and who would care.
Post by: forsaken1111 on September 28, 2018, 08:56:56 am
it would be nice if it started out needing to link to your capital but eventually transitioning to having multiple or different hubs would make senseI think the thought is that to collect trade value you must have a valid trade path back to the capitol, to ensure you are not doing something odd like setting up a trade route in a disconnected sector of your empire that you could not realistically reach (due to hostile borders, space monsters, etc). It doesn't mean all trade is processed on the capitol, just their mechanical way of rewarding a cohesive connected empire
all trade leading to capital has some pretty specific political implications
Post by: PTTG?? on September 30, 2018, 12:01:54 pm
Post by: Broseph Stalin on September 30, 2018, 12:23:14 pm
This update is making it hard to commit to playing a new game...I'm sitting here thinking of what game I want to play and the only answer I can come up with is "that version of stellaris that isn't out yet."
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 30, 2018, 01:41:27 pm
I am sad there is no inter-empire trade routes, apparently.It's been said that this is happening; there will be trade agreements between empires. Devs just "aren't ready to talk about that yet."
Post by: Nelia Hawk on September 30, 2018, 02:39:59 pm
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 01, 2018, 02:19:19 pm
Post by: Telgin on October 01, 2018, 02:25:39 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on October 01, 2018, 09:01:50 pm
I'm like 90% sure that the intra trade routes is merely to counter the spaghetti strategy people have stated is the best way to play.
It'll stop disconnected empires, which I used to do in expansive enough games where even a single line of systems between planets drained research too much (at least until you can research gateways... Interesting thing about this, once you get gateways you can build them above your planets and you'll only need a single trade station, in theory from what I understand.) but for the most part I don't think it'd change the idea of having long strung out or very Swiss cheesy empires being the best, in fact since they are replacing pirates (the previous punishment for making such empires) with the trade system I'm pretty sure this'll actually make long stringy empires that ignore vast swaths of space even more attractive.
They've said they are probably replacing the old pirate punishment for strung out empires with something else, but haven't settled on what that'd be.
Personally I feel like they should either accept stringy empires and stop trying to punish people for making them, or actually remove the punishments for NOT having a stringy empire. It kinda sucks that they are like "We gota punish people for having large empires" and when people respond with having smaller empires they respond with "we gota punish people for having small empires"
Post by: Madman198237 on October 01, 2018, 09:05:58 pm
Post by: Broseph Stalin on October 01, 2018, 11:45:26 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 02, 2018, 06:05:11 am
Post by: Criptfeind on October 02, 2018, 06:12:54 am
They are going to rejigger the numbers and stuff with the new empire size mechanic, but I kinda doubt it'll change the dynamic from what they've been saying.
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 02, 2018, 07:59:12 am
Post by: Telgin on October 02, 2018, 08:45:31 am
These changes seem to be about correcting player's behavior but what are players actually supposed to do? It seems like there's a lot of pushing and pulling but it's not going anywhere rational. Is the intended playstyle a handful of systems in a corner of the galaxy?
Essentially... yes, I think so. If you play on the default galaxy generation settings, each empire is usually relatively small since they're pretty crowded. I'm guessing that empire size is more or less what the devs want players to play with.
It's pretty clear that the devs are trying to address snowballing through at least three mechanics here (influence, tech penalties and pirates), but you could probably make an argument that snowballing is half of the point of playing a game like Stellaris.
Post by: Criptfeind on October 02, 2018, 09:01:53 am
Pretty much ninja'd by Telgin. It might remain small compared to districts, but planets are getting bigger (in some ways, smaller in others) as well, so the relative benefit of systems (and thus the decision on if they are even worth having) is going to go down as well.
It's pretty clear that the devs are trying to address snowballing through at least three mechanics here (influence, tech penalties and pirates), but you could probably make an argument that snowballing is half of the point of playing a game like Stellaris.
Ultimately I'm fine with anti snowball mechanics so long as they do well and the game is still fun. The issue with the tech penalties from systems is it ultimately fails to achieve it's goal as an antisnowball mechanic, you still want to snowball as hard as possible and have as many planets as possible. It just makes it so you don't want to own the space in between the planets as you snowball though the galaxy.
Similarly I dislike the pirate mechanic because it both really doesn't matter that much and is only an annoyance and not a fun mechanic, and also it's main purpose seems to be a weak patch job on the failed mechanic of system tech penalties. To punish people for playing in the way the game works instead of actually trying to change the systems so that it's not massively less efficient to play the way the devs want you to.
Post by: Karnewarrior on October 02, 2018, 02:22:21 pm
That's just not good design.
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 02, 2018, 07:26:12 pm
Post by: Cruxador on October 02, 2018, 08:02:35 pm
It's all punish punish punish seems to be the problem, and no reward. All negative results from playing wrong, but no positive results from playing right except for not being punished.When it's just numeric differences, those are the same thing. You're rewarded for deleting superfluous stations, for example, with increased tech progress.
That's just not good design.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on October 02, 2018, 08:03:28 pm
Post by: Telgin on October 02, 2018, 08:21:46 pm
It's pretty hard to NOT minmax on higher difficulties with all the mechanics in place. I find it increasingly difficult to use suboptimal and retarded strategies or useless species without getting hopelessly drowned in pirates or AI, or else minmaxing and hopelessly snowballing to the point where the AI can't compete. Especially with the way the new difficulty scaling makes the AI more productive AND more powerful per ship AND outnumbering ships makes the AI shoot even faster, if you're not abusing diplomacy and rushing for megastructures and 25 tile research worlds with optimised pops you're not increasing in power fast enough to compete with the AI. Which is a shame because I usually enjoy doing silly things like isolationist purifiers or roach pop engineers or useless cat federators, and I find myself either overwhelmed or overwhelming with little leeway in between the extremes.
What difficulty do you normally play on? I can imagine it's like that in Admiral, or whatever the highest difficulty is, but it's not that bad on lower difficulties. I think the AI only gets production and maybe naval capacity bonuses on higher difficulties now, but that does translate to bigger navies.
Or maybe I'm just minmaxing without realizing it, since I usually do end up way ahead of every AI. I do enjoy megastructures and optimize my research as much as I can without doing things like deleting all of my nonplanet systems. But then I try to take RP focused traits, like Weak, and civics, like Life-Seeded, which are both objectively pretty bad.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on October 03, 2018, 01:19:54 am
It's all punish punish punish seems to be the problem, and no reward. All negative results from playing wrong, but no positive results from playing right except for not being punished.It puts the lotion on it's skin or we'll use the hose
That's just not good design.
Post by: Karnewarrior on October 03, 2018, 05:48:01 pm
Which is why good game design says not to make the differences all numeric, and instead make the changes mechanical.It's all punish punish punish seems to be the problem, and no reward. All negative results from playing wrong, but no positive results from playing right except for not being punished.When it's just numeric differences, those are the same thing. You're rewarded for deleting superfluous stations, for example, with increased tech progress.
That's just not good design.
But even taking away all the mathematical bonuses and reasons to play tall, playing tall just isn't as fun as playing wide. Playing wide has a lot more sense of movement and motion, imo, than playing Tall does, unless playing a Tall suzerain. But then that's just Wide with an added constraint. There's still nothing really that shakes up empires, or really anything interesting to do in space you already own that doesn't have a feature locked behind a tech or large battle. Once all those have been exhausted, all that remains is plopping buildings on little grids, trying to eke out one more energy credit to add to your massive pile.
Note that CKII and Vicky II don't have this problem, but EUIV does (to a lesser extent). EUIV is also the most map-painterly game of the three, and the one most focused on expansion. The mechanics of Stellaris work to incentivize expansion with fun, rather than mechanical benefits, so when the devs respond by slapping negative modifiers on there all they end up doing is slapping the playerbase away from the fun things and pointing at the unfun things, which is not the point of a game to begin with. There needs to be not only mathematical but extra-game reasons to play Tall; there needs to be more involved governance, diplomacy, and politics. Otherwise, people will continue to blob because that's the only way Stellaris is really any fun. Special mechanics for small nations, or mechanics that grow more interesting the smaller the empire. That sort of thing. That's a real reward, not a +10% laser fire rate. Who gives a damn about that, the AI is pathetic anyway.
Post by: Telgin on October 04, 2018, 08:32:05 am
Not terribly exciting stuff this time, although I'm really curious to see what the tradition rework ends up looking like. I don't have very high hopes of this being the case, but I'm hoping they're going to actually give choices with traditions instead of them being something you'll always unlock by end game. Or maybe reduce the incentive to play certain empire types specifically to swap out the more useless trees.
Post by: Cruxador on October 04, 2018, 11:14:36 am
Besides what's in the dev diary, one of the posts later in the thread has revealed that the infrastructure mechanic revealed in a previous dev diary has been scrapped, which seems like a bit of a shame to me, especially if scaling buildings are gone with it.
Not terribly exciting stuff this timeThis is probably a sign that they're getting close to announcing the DLC.
Post by: Teneb on October 04, 2018, 11:19:26 am
If that land clearance can be done repeatedly, Mastery of Nature just became a top-tier ascension perk.Seems like a one-time deal. Would be way too strong otherwise. This way it's just respectably strong.
Post by: Telgin on October 04, 2018, 11:28:18 am
Didn't some teasers show a fallen empire world with 5 more districts than planet size? That implies that it can be repeated that many times at least, or that there are other technologies that can increase the district size up to at least 5 times.
Besides what's in the dev diary, one of the posts later in the thread has revealed that the infrastructure mechanic revealed in a previous dev diary has been scrapped, which seems like a bit of a shame to me, especially if scaling buildings are gone with it.
Yeah, I think I liked the infrastructure mechanic more than basing it purely off of pops, but I do understand why they changed it. The two numbers were largely hand-in-hand anyway, and apparently it gave too much incentive to build city districts without anyone living in them. I think it had potential though, since there could have been other government or species traits that impacted it and made it decoupled from population. Habitats also scaled differently from planets when it came to infrastructure, so it'll be interesting to see how that changes.
Post by: Criptfeind on October 04, 2018, 02:44:51 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on October 11, 2018, 10:13:40 am
It's about traditions getting rejiggled for the new economy system as well as changing domination from vassal focused to worker/slave focused and the diplomacy tree adding in stuff to do with trading (increased trade value and decreased market fee, which I guess are thematically related but mechanically have nothing to do with each other).
First thought is that all traditions that give unity are now gone which is an interesting choice, but I think it's a good idea. For me at least it always seemed like the best trees to break into at the start were the ones that gave good unity increases that you don't have to fuck around to get. Although there'll probably still be pretty obvious opening ones.
Also expansion is about having a big empire but it's domination and prosperity that give more housing, and diplomacy might very well give more pop growth mid game, depending on how immigration works. Kinda interesting.
Still kinda wish they'd do something more interesting with traditions and make them exclusive or something. But eh.
Edit: Oh, and on the stream they showed that there's going to be a new authority. On the forum people are wondering if it's megacorporations. Which seems like a reasonable place for the DLC to go, so sounds like that might be what is next.
Post by: Telgin on October 11, 2018, 11:36:30 am
Still kinda wish they'd do something more interesting with traditions and make them exclusive or something. But eh.
Same. I was really hoping for that, but didn't really count on it in this patch given the other complexities they're dealing with. At least the rework does look like it will make many traditions more useful to take so that I don't always go the same route.
Quote
Edit: Oh, and on the stream they showed that there's going to be a new authority. On the forum people are wondering if it's megacorporations. Which seems like a reasonable place for the DLC to go, so sounds like that might be what is next.
Yeah, that would make a lot of sense too. I'm just hoping they announce it soon so we can get a release date too. It'll be interesting to see what new features or game mechanics get locked behind the DLC.
Post by: Mephansteras on October 11, 2018, 11:41:06 am
Post by: Cruxador on October 11, 2018, 11:48:39 am
Happy to see that the traditions are now all fairly useful for at least the majority of empires. Dominion, especially, used to be basically useless for a lot of empires. I've had quite a few games where it was only ever taken because I had nothing else to use the Unity on.With the focus on Federation, diplomacy is probably the most subject in utility now.
Post by: Criptfeind on October 11, 2018, 11:55:15 am
Presumably its main purpose is to make Swiss cheese empires no longer optimal.
Probably won't do that. Sectors still increase empire size. So unless you are small enough that you are below your admin cap, you'll want to swisscheese your empire to reduce the penalties still.
Post by: Mephansteras on October 11, 2018, 12:08:01 pm
Happy to see that the traditions are now all fairly useful for at least the majority of empires. Dominion, especially, used to be basically useless for a lot of empires. I've had quite a few games where it was only ever taken because I had nothing else to use the Unity on.With the focus on Federation, diplomacy is probably the most subject in utility now.
Yeah, although the Trade stuff is still useful for some non-federated empires I assume. I wonder how that'll work with Devouring Swarms and the like, though.
Post by: Criptfeind on October 11, 2018, 04:43:49 pm
Opening effect replaced by 10% reduced housing needs
Federation swapped with +10% food
Entente coordination replaced with +1 gene mod point and -15% mod speed
Insider trading replaced with 30% terraforming cost reduction (<Interesting one since potentially insider trading might be more useful for a devouring swarm forced to use it's internal market for trade rather then trade deals with AI. If making trade deals with AI wasn't a bit of a pain that is.)
Secure shipping replaced with 50% lower resettlement costs
Open markets replaced with +10% habitability
Post by: Telgin on October 11, 2018, 06:46:00 pm
Anyway, I'm curious to know what Inward Perfection will get now. Supposedly one goal of this rework was also to make unity producing buildings less common, so things like the symbol of purity might get the axe.
Post by: Criptfeind on October 11, 2018, 08:57:43 pm
Wait, do devouring swarms get an internal market? I've never played one, but aren't they gestalt consciousness only? I think those don't get an internal market.
Difference between the internal market and the galactic market. The internal market is the market before you meet anyone, it represents your own internal civilian economy (or in the case of the gestalt consciousness it represents (weakly imo) the ability to inefficiently reprocess resources internally) and it costs more to interact with. Galactic market replaces it once the various nations have met with each other and it costs less to buy and sell on it. Afaik numbers of the difference between the two aren't out yet, but I expect it comes in the form of a higher market fee at the internal market.
Genocidal races like Devouring Swarm, Determined Exterminator and Fanatic Purifiers can't access the galactic market but they still get access to the internal market. I can't recall if it's been said if all gestalt consciousness (and/or diplomatic blocked nations like Inward Perfectionists) can get access to the galactic market. My vague recollection is that that's been mentioned as something they've not decided on, but I'm too lazy too look for a quote so that could be totally wrong.
You might have been thinking of Internal Trade? Which is of course something totally different then Internal Market (totally.) The production of trade value that turns into energy in your capital (as the trade ships dump their molten gold bullion into the giant waterwheels that stretch up to space on top of your imperial palace). Gestalt do not get access to that.
Post by: Telgin on October 11, 2018, 09:09:55 pm
I expect that Inward Perfectionists will get galactic market access though, if for no other reason than the fact that they can make trade deals with other empires in the current version of the game.
Post by: Criptfeind on October 11, 2018, 09:14:01 pm
I expect that Inward Perfectionists will get galactic market access though, if for no other reason than the fact that they can make trade deals with other empires in the current version of the game.
That sounds like a reasonable train of thought to me.
Post by: Cruxador on October 11, 2018, 10:16:06 pm
If it's by sector then it wouldn't have that effect since once you've got a sector, you might as well have everything in that sector. But I don't know if that's how it works. Where were the new empire size calculations discussed?Presumably its main purpose is to make Swiss cheese empires no longer optimal.
Probably won't do that. Sectors still increase empire size. So unless you are small enough that you are below your admin cap, you'll want to swisscheese your empire to reduce the penalties still.
Post by: Telgin on October 11, 2018, 10:40:40 pm
(https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?attachments/upload_2018-10-11_15-31-5-png.410199/)
The impact for owned systems is higher than I expected, at twice the penalty of a district, and it's kind of weird that colonies add to the size on top of their district size, but we'll see how that gets balanced after release.
What's particularly interesting is that it looks like the penalties for going over the empire size become very large, very fast. Technology and tradition costs don't scale too badly, but campaign and leader costs go up very fast. Unless those +10% penalties come in some kind of step function where you just get blanket penalties for hitting certain size milestones above your administrative cap, they're going to get out of hand. Unless the base cost for them is really low...
Of course, it's also hard to know how the administrative cap can be improved. Clearly the Courier Network tradition gives you a +20 cap, and I'm guessing some ascension perks will increase that too, plus maybe ruler or governor levels, but it doesn't look like it scales easily.
Post by: Cruxador on October 12, 2018, 01:57:32 am
Post by: Majestic7 on October 12, 2018, 08:35:49 am
Post by: Telgin on October 12, 2018, 09:40:40 am
Maybe hiring governors will increase the administrative cap? That would be interesting to see.
And in the end, this is really just expressing the same tech and tradition penalties as are here now. The +10% costs to campaigns and leaders for going 10 over the administrative cap is the main thing that concerns me. I know that they said that leader costs would scale with empire size, so maybe that's deliberate and could be priced so that it's not unreasonable, but the campaign cost thing looks kind of excessive.
Post by: Criptfeind on October 12, 2018, 09:57:48 am
If it's by sector then it wouldn't have that effect since once you've got a sector, you might as well have everything in that sector. But I don't know if that's how it works. Where were the new empire size calculations discussed?
Oh. Sorry, I'm a dummy, I mistyped and meant system not sector.
As for the new numbers, tech penalty for systems is lower then before and per planet is higher (once a planet is fully developed) which I think is good (Although it looks like planets are going to potentially be more productive. Which might make sectors even worse comparatively.) So maybe... But the leader/campaign costs might be a killer. Especially since it sounds like we'll want a governor for every inhabited system... I dunno.
MAybe sectors will take less adminstrative resources than directly controlled colonies. I'm fond of vassals anyway.
The way they've been talking about sectors makes me think this probably won't be the case. It sounds like sectors won't really be anything like we think of sectors now, as autonomously controlled areas that are distinct in our empire with mechanically differences. It sounds like in the future the difference between the home sector and any other sector will basically just be what leader is giving bonuses to it. Otherwise it'll be the same, with us directly controlling it and no longer have split resource banks and autobuilding and such. A move away from vassalish sectors and towards them not really existing in a meaningful way.
Post by: Cruxador on October 12, 2018, 01:47:08 pm
The way they've been talking about sectors makes me think this probably won't be the case. It sounds like sectors won't really be anything like we think of sectors now, as autonomously controlled areas that are distinct in our empire with mechanically differences. It sounds like in the future the difference between the home sector and any other sector will basically just be what leader is giving bonuses to it. Otherwise it'll be the same, with us directly controlling it and no longer have split resource banks and autobuilding and such. A move away from vassalish sectors and towards them not really existing in a meaningful way.Apparently you can still give them resources to auto-build if you want, they just won't retain their resources for that purpose by default or prevent you from building. So it's opt-in micromanagement reduction, rather than mandatory gameplay excision.
Post by: Criptfeind on October 18, 2018, 01:57:32 pm
I'm thinking the way tech works is going to be the total deathknell for any idea of tall vs wide. Since it doesn't look like increasing your tech is going to help with resource extraction very much, it shouldn't be nearly as important as simply getting more planets for more dudes to work on.
I think the real update though was on steam where they showed a new ascension perk for universally compatable xeno-sexual biology. Finally my captain Kirks can leave litters of half green children thoughout the universe.
Post by: Cruxador on October 18, 2018, 02:41:32 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on October 18, 2018, 02:58:56 pm
Quote
Depending on what we have time for, it's possible that the 'quality' of the resort world will impact how much amenities it will give other planets (for example, a Gaia World would be an ideal resort).If they don't get around to it, I wonder if low-habitability worlds will make good resorts hehe. Hopefully the amenities production is tied to the happiness of the local population though.
Post by: Egan_BW on October 18, 2018, 03:12:06 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 18, 2018, 04:50:06 pm
Yeah, seems like it's ideal right now to stick a resort on the most barren, deadly, and useless body you can find, so that the tourists can look at the pointy rocks and acid clouds from their windows while enjoying the air conditioning.I see you've been to Las Vegas...
Post by: Radsoc on October 19, 2018, 05:35:11 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on October 19, 2018, 07:56:45 am
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dp3MoimW4AILP3b.jpg)
wiz finally drops a good twitter spoiler
this is one time i'm willing to drop my realism objections
Post by: Broseph Stalin on October 19, 2018, 08:27:03 am
https://twitter.com/StellarisGame/status/1052937138231279617I hope it's a cure for alzheimers that researchers have decided to announce in the weirdest possible way.
I'm hoping this is them announcing the release date.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on October 19, 2018, 10:52:53 am
strangely alluring
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 19, 2018, 11:04:21 am
Post by: Trekkin on October 19, 2018, 11:28:38 am
Post by: GiglameshDespair on October 19, 2018, 12:34:27 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on October 19, 2018, 12:44:34 pm
I would have assumed it was just consumer-grade artificial gene splicing except the blurb kinda... hints otherwise. Or maybe they're talking about sleep schedules, yeah.
Huh I just realized the obvious real-world parallel. You know they produced viable embryos from two female mice recently? Probably a coincidence though.
Post by: Trekkin on October 19, 2018, 01:30:40 pm
I think it's sweet as long as I don't think about the details. At all.
I would have assumed it was just consumer-grade artificial gene splicing except the blurb kinda... hints otherwise. Or maybe they're talking about sleep schedules, yeah.
Huh I just realized the obvious real-world parallel. You know they produced viable embryos from two female mice recently? Probably a coincidence though.
Oh, it has to be much more than that. There's no guarantee that any two species encode heritable information in the same polymers, let alone have interoperable translation apparatus, so even generating a hypothetical genome is an inherently arbitrary process. Actually translating that into a viable organism also requires dealing with any chemical incompatibilities between completely foreign metabolisms -- and without just making them mutually inert, since that will mess with everything from transcriptional control to environment sensing even if the parents' gross physiological parameters are a sufficiently close match for all the chemistry to work simultaneously in the first place.
Post by: Rolan7 on October 19, 2018, 01:45:07 pm
I guess that's why there are blorbs with human DNA, and humans with blorb DNA. The two hybrid races are presumably as incompatible as any other humanoid and fungus. It might be just an aesthetic/cultural thing... Blorbs with human faces genetailored onto them, perhaps. Humans with tendrils? Maybe some sort of fungal symbiote like our gut flora, but more so...
It's probably whatever we choose to imagine, heh.
Edit: Oh but I guess it does give extra gene points, so I'm leaning towards the symbiote concept a bit.
"Potent Horatio sauce" - am I doing the meme right? I still need to play Endless Space...
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 19, 2018, 02:04:42 pm
Post by: Cruxador on October 19, 2018, 02:32:13 pm
That moment when your daughter tells you she's been dating the fun guy, and you realise she didn't mean Steve, your neighbour standup comedian, but the mile-wide immigrant mycelium squatting under the sewage treatment plant.I guess I'm gonna need a bigger shotgun to make sure he gets her home by 11.
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 19, 2018, 02:40:26 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on October 19, 2018, 03:10:21 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dp3MoimW4AILP3b.jpg)
(https://orig00.deviantart.net/1438/f/2012/083/4/7/captain_kirk__s_sex_face_by_spockhorror-d4tsdpd.jpg)
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 19, 2018, 03:44:26 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on October 19, 2018, 03:47:44 pm
1) All cultures do not allow such things. I can't see a culture embracing both slavery and interbreeding (actually, now that I've considered that, there should be a check against that).
2) The technology requires a special scientific focus, like genetics or cybernetics.
3) There is no natural occurrence that allows a gecko-man to mate with a mushroom.
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 19, 2018, 03:48:51 pm
I just clocked that it's an ascension perk, which I don't like at all. It should be a technology thing that everyone should be able to have, not barred by ascension (why the hell can two species interbreed in one empire but not in another empire? Immersion breaking).You can make the same argument about megastructures or genetic engineering perks.
The perks seem to represent the ideas a society is ok with and invested in.
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 19, 2018, 04:22:43 pm
Possible response:Romans, Mongols, Spanish all had extensive slavery and nonetheless interbred with everything that moved
1) All cultures do not allow such things. I can't see a culture embracing both slavery and interbreeding (actually, now that I've considered that, there should be a check against that).
2) The technology requires a special scientific focus, like genetics or cybernetics.So the ascension perk literally represents an entire civilisation going full Harkness magical realm and becoming xenophile degenerates overnight? What kind of civilisation gets together its best scientists to focus the efforts of the sum total of their knowledge in order to permit waifus: but fungus?
3) There is no natural occurrence that allows a gecko-man to mate with a mushroom.Nor is there an unnatural occurrence that allows a gecko-man to mate with a mushroom. Consider that there is a graphical culture for a saprotophic fungus which takes over the corpses of other species, that kind of species could be given a trait to represent how it is capable of producing hybrids with all other species simply by taking over their bodies. Conversely, you can have a smooth transition from geckos interbreeding with other geckos, to other amphibians, to all other species, instead of a simple catastrophic fertility event wherein the geckos discovered they were galactic sluts overnight. Imo gradual interbreeding is da wey
*EDIT
You can make the same argument about megastructures or genetic engineering perks.Isn't that what pop ethos is for? Why for example would two fanatic xenophiles living under a fanatic xenophobe government NOT make gecko-fungus babies simply because the ruler, whom they do not like, told them not to profane nature with their horrifying offspring? I imagine it's more a game balance thing but you can bet I'm going to try and mod it so there's maximum hybridification going on. The only downside is I hope they fix the species UI because it's god awful
The perks seem to represent the ideas a society is ok with and invested in.
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 19, 2018, 05:02:20 pm
Isn't that what pop ethos is for? Why for example would two fanatic xenophiles living under a fanatic xenophobe government NOT make gecko-fungus babies simply because the ruler, whom they do not like, told them not to profane nature with their horrifying offspring? I imagine it's more a game balance thing but you can bet I'm going to try and mod it so there's maximum hybridification going on. The only downside is I hope they fix the species UI because it's god awfulI understand that the interbreeding perk is not just a matter of star-crossed Dolly and Zorblax getting it on despite the Man telling them not to, but a matter of there not being a state-sponsored, empire-wide programme of genetic modification of all pops that would allow the offspring to physically happen. Or maybe some sort of in-vitro procreation is involved. That's how I read it.
Man, this is a silly discussion, even by bay12 standards.
Post by: Rolan7 on October 19, 2018, 05:05:23 pm
I imagine it's more a game balance thing but you can bet I'm going to try and mod it so there's maximum hybridification going on. The only downside is I hope they fix the species UI because it's god awfulYes please, hybrid races surreptitiously forming in slaver empires sounds flavorful and fun. More migrants for me, probably :D And they're literally superior heh, another nice reason to be xenophile.
Post by: Persus13 on October 19, 2018, 05:15:32 pm
American slavery too. Interbreeding just meant more slaves without having to purchase them. It wasn't endorsed, but it kept the system working.Possible response:Romans, Mongols, Spanish all had extensive slavery and nonetheless interbred with everything that moved
1) All cultures do not allow such things. I can't see a culture embracing both slavery and interbreeding (actually, now that I've considered that, there should be a check against that).
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 19, 2018, 05:32:26 pm
Yes please, hybrid races surreptitiously forming in slaver empires sounds flavorful and fun. More migrants for me, probably :D And they're literally superior heh, another nice reason to be xenophile.I also like the potential for emergent narrative gameplay going on. Like what happens if over time a strict hierarchy of species based slavery is fucked up by the species distinctions having diminished, or even the original species involved having died out and been replaced by the hybrid offspring
I understand that the interbreeding perk is not just a matter of star-crossed Dolly and Zorblax getting it on despite the Man telling them not to, but a matter of there not being a state-sponsored, empire-wide programme of genetic modification of all pops that would allow the offspring to physically happen. Or maybe some sort of in-vitro procreation is involved. That's how I read it.Why not all 3? Have one hybrid path based off of traits, one hybrid path based off of tech and 1 based off of ascension perk? That way you could simulate a state going full overdrive to rush it into reality or simulate a state slowly getting there nonetheless
Man, this is a silly discussion, even by bay12 standards.
Post by: Rolan7 on October 19, 2018, 05:41:49 pm
Post by: GiglameshDespair on October 19, 2018, 05:50:29 pm
Zorblax
For ages, I've always used Zorblax as a non-serious name for aliens, but I've never known where I picked it up from.
What's Zorblax from?
Post by: Teneb on October 19, 2018, 05:52:56 pm
While that might've been the case in British America, in Spanish/Portuguese America kids born between enslaved people and free people did not happen for that purpose. While the sexual relation was often a master raping his servants, there are many cases where in a slave-owner's will there were entire paragraphs recognizing his children with slaves and leaving them a small part of the inheritance.American slavery too. Interbreeding just meant more slaves without having to purchase them. It wasn't endorsed, but it kept the system working.Possible response:Romans, Mongols, Spanish all had extensive slavery and nonetheless interbred with everything that moved
1) All cultures do not allow such things. I can't see a culture embracing both slavery and interbreeding (actually, now that I've considered that, there should be a check against that).
Frankly, I think the "xenophobia = alien slavery" thing that Stellaris does is kinda forced.
Balanced forFTFYmultispeciesmultiplayer romance
Post by: Criptfeind on October 19, 2018, 06:00:36 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on October 19, 2018, 06:04:49 pm
What's Zorblax from?Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal. (https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/life-on-zorblax) It's a standalone gag comic, but he frequently draws aliens the same way and calls them Zorblaxians, even with wildly different jokes.
I don't know if he made up the name entirely or got it from somewhere else, though.
Post by: Cruxador on October 19, 2018, 06:42:21 pm
I just clocked that it's an ascension perk, which I don't like at all. It should be a technology thing that everyone should be able to have, not barred by ascension (why the hell can two species interbreed in one empire but not in another empire? Immersion breaking). The tech should progress from interbreeding within a graphical culture group, to interbreeding between the graphical culture groups. So you move from humanoids <-> humanoids, to humanoids <-> literally everything, instead of immediately going to literally everything <-> literally everything with an ascension perk. Idealliest it would be based on trait & graphical culture and not necessarily tech or ascension perk at all and it'd just be a natural occurrenceI definitely prefer it as an ascension perk. Transcending the barriers of species isn't something everyone should be able to do.
I don't believe they're actually superior to begin with, but rather, you can modify them to be superior. Although the wording leaves both interpretations as valid.I imagine it's more a game balance thing but you can bet I'm going to try and mod it so there's maximum hybridification going on. The only downside is I hope they fix the species UI because it's god awfulYes please, hybrid races surreptitiously forming in slaver empires sounds flavorful and fun. More migrants for me, probably :D And they're literally superior heh, another nice reason to be xenophile.
Frankly, I think the "xenophobia = alien slavery" thing that Stellaris does is kinda forced.It's complete bollocks, but they're stuck on it because apparently they want to lump all forms of inequality together or something.
I don't think you really need to justify why it's an ascension perk instead of a technology too much. Most of the ascension perks don't make sense if you look at them though that view. Rather it's a way to customize your empire, make it meaningfully different then others and build in a unique and interesting way. That's what (imo) ascension perks should do, and (once again imo) this one does that really really well. Certainly a lot better then most ascension perks.Yeah, you can't think of this game too much based on logic or realism, because Wiz hates that as a design concept and refuses to follow it ever. It's only meaningful to think of modern Paradox games in terms of pure game design.
Post by: Rolan7 on October 19, 2018, 07:00:19 pm
Hm, I feel like the screenshot (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dp4bve1X0AEdkmb.jpg) implies that the hybrid was created with benefits. Unless both hybrids were completely gene-tailored after their creation, with extra points, which is possible.I don't believe they're actually superior to begin with, but rather, you can modify them to be superior. Although the wording leaves both interpretations as valid.I imagine it's more a game balance thing but you can bet I'm going to try and mod it so there's maximum hybridification going on. The only downside is I hope they fix the species UI because it's god awfulYes please, hybrid races surreptitiously forming in slaver empires sounds flavorful and fun. More migrants for me, probably :D And they're literally superior heh, another nice reason to be xenophile.
Both hybrids appear to be subsets of their parents, but with a slightly higher gene total.
It might be a deliberate thing you do through a popup, which would be a bit disappointing but understandable. But if it is random and uncontrolled, it makes me wonder if you can "reroll" by eliminating an unwanted hybrid species.
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 19, 2018, 07:35:23 pm
I don't believe they're actually superior to begin with, but rather, you can modify them to be superior. Although the wording leaves both interpretations as valid.Judging from the screencap hybrids get +2 trait points, so if you mix together two intelligently designed randos you should be able to have decent chances of rolling a hybrid species that is superior to both, especially if each hybridisation roll produces two hybrid species every time
Yeah, you can't think of this game too much based on logic or realism, because Wiz hates that as a design concept and refuses to follow it ever. It's only meaningful to think of modern Paradox games in terms of pure game design.I disagree with the design concept as ignoring the main issue of the differences between Empires being gratingly artificial and shallow; species differences and government differences being largely cosmetic. The absolute dream would be doing away with ascension perks entirely, and having everything in the ascension perks be tied to policies and tech - allowing for organic differentiation between Empires that permit hybridisation, psionics, cybernetic augmentations, gene modification e.t.c., instead of the madness wherein an Empire is incapable of pursuing the same line of enquiry with greater resources than an identical Empire of identical species because they locked themselves into a now-irrelevant ascension "perk." It's emulating the weakest aspects of a Civilisation game instead of a decent 4X like Alpha Centauri or even a standard historicalsim alt history dicking paradox title, while it forces the player to ignore all perks in favour of the indispensable ones which unlock late-game pop modifications of megastructures
Post by: Cruxador on October 20, 2018, 12:11:23 am
I'm not saying I don't agree with you, but Wiz doesn't agree with you. And, I believe, Paradox's monitoring of their playerbase, or at least their interpretation thereof, supports this by suggesting that players engage more from choosing options from a list rather than shaping empires in a more nuanced (but less definite) way. I don't reckon there's any practical point in us contesting their paradigm.Yeah, you can't think of this game too much based on logic or realism, because Wiz hates that as a design concept and refuses to follow it ever. It's only meaningful to think of modern Paradox games in terms of pure game design.I disagree with the design concept as ignoring the main issue of the differences between Empires being gratingly artificial and shallow; species differences and government differences being largely cosmetic. The absolute dream would be doing away with ascension perks entirely, and having everything in the ascension perks be tied to policies and tech - allowing for organic differentiation between Empires that permit hybridisation, psionics, cybernetic augmentations, gene modification e.t.c., instead of the madness wherein an Empire is incapable of pursuing the same line of enquiry with greater resources than an identical Empire of identical species because they locked themselves into a now-irrelevant ascension "perk." It's emulating the weakest aspects of a Civilisation game instead of a decent 4X like Alpha Centauri or even a standard historicalsim alt history dicking paradox title, while it forces the player to ignore all perks in favour of the indispensable ones which unlock late-game pop modifications of megastructures
Post by: Criptfeind on October 20, 2018, 08:08:27 am
Post by: Cruxador on October 20, 2018, 08:40:05 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 20, 2018, 08:49:52 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 20, 2018, 11:25:08 am
I feel like "organic differentiation between Empires" is a very ideal goal, but it practice it seems like it might be hard to do without every empire coming out feeling very samey, which is already a huge issue with Stellaris which ascension perks at least sorta try to make it so different empires feel different.It's already been achieved by other games and by modders, the only limit is imagination
Post by: IronyOwl on October 20, 2018, 12:06:01 pm
I want to believe, but I can't think of any that pull it off on a large scale. Certainly none that cleanly inform the player of all the little nuances and distinctions within another empire.I feel like "organic differentiation between Empires" is a very ideal goal, but it practice it seems like it might be hard to do without every empire coming out feeling very samey, which is already a huge issue with Stellaris which ascension perks at least sorta try to make it so different empires feel different.It's already been achieved by other games and by modders, the only limit is imagination
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 20, 2018, 03:30:59 pm
Frankly, I think the "xenophobia = alien slavery" thing that Stellaris does is kinda forced.
You're just plain flat out wrong here. While it is merely a segment of a population rather than the entirety, Caste System (something only Authoritarians can use and explicitly cannot be used by Xenophobes) enslaves any member of the populace working food or mineral systems. And as for Xenophobia equalling it, while it does unlock the option to do so, you can freely change that up to the species having the unenslaved Resident status.
Post by: Criptfeind on October 24, 2018, 08:20:43 am
Headliner feature is the Megacorp authority, which gets double penalties from going over empire size, but has a higher empire size (so they can get bigger without penalties, but after a certain size they'll have more penalties then other empires, basically they aren't meant to conquer the whole galaxy)
Instead they open branch offices on other peoples planets. Cost money to open and gives money as income. Normal corps require a trade agreement to do it, criminal corps don't need an agreement (and can't make it)
Income is based on trade value of the planet. Criminal corps get income based on the amount of crime on the planet (.5 to 1.5 as much as a normal corp depending on crime level)
Corp offices get building slots based on the planet population. Buildings give the corps some income or resources but give the planet owner jobs and/or trade value. Criminal buildings do this as well, but their buildings also produce crime.
Corps have special vassals called subsidiaries that can't be subsumed into their empire but both have to join in wars and give a percentage of their income to their masters.
Other paid features: Shared burden (civic) for social utopia that allows you to give people the shared burden living standard that makes all pops need consumer goods and gives stability
Caravaners who send barter fleets that offer randomly generated trade deals. Once you find their home system you can contact them at any time to interact with their space casino.
Arcologies are a new ascension perk to make city planets into ecumenopolis. Ecumenopolis replace their districts with new districts. Half of your city districts will be turned into the new city district equivalent that have three times as much housing as normal (so your housing is multiplied by 1.5 at the start) and then the other districts give as much housing as city districts as well as lots of jobs.
New galactic wonders:
Matter decompresser pulls minerals out of black holes.
Military center that gives a lot of naval capacity I guess
Mega art instillation that gives unity and amenities
Interstellar assembly site that gives diplomacy bonuses and immigration.
Galactic wonders goes from clearly the best and most interesting ascension perk to even more clearly the best and most interesting ascension perk ascension perk.
Slave market is a paid feature. No info yet.
Spoiler: Space Casino (click to show/hide)
My first thought is worry that it's a lot of interaction with and reliance on notoriously bad AI empires, but we'll see. It sounds cool.
Post by: Telgin on October 24, 2018, 08:40:50 am
This does sound pretty cool though, and is more or less what I expected from the DLC. One thing I haven't quite figured out from the vague clues I've read, is if megacorps work like traditional empires at all. Do they even own planets, or do they only own branch offices?
Post by: Cruxador on October 24, 2018, 08:53:37 am
Space mafia does sound fun, though. Especially combined with a scummy undesirable species that sneaks in to other planets via your criminal enterprise, forcing neighbors to either go genocidal or tolerate your little crime goblins showing up and giving you CBs.
I also hope this can be combined with other DLC content, as a rogue servitor corporation seems particularly kino. It might be unusually compatible with fanatic purifiers as well, though I imagine that's disallowed for thematic reasons. A corporation with ecumenopolis and galactic market would be a great choice for the single planet game though.
Post by: Criptfeind on October 24, 2018, 09:02:09 am
This does sound pretty cool though, and is more or less what I expected from the DLC. One thing I haven't quite figured out from the vague clues I've read, is if megacorps work like traditional empires at all. Do they even own planets, or do they only own branch offices?
They work like a normal empire. Might have been more interesting if they didn't. But they seem fairly standard outside of couple of extra investment options and a bigger penalty to size.
I also hope this can be combined with other DLC content, as a rogue servitor corporation seems particularly kino. It might be unusually compatible with fanatic purifiers as well, though I imagine that's disallowed for thematic reasons. A corporation with ecumenopolis and galactic market would be a great choice for the single planet game though.
It certainly can't be combined with rogue servitor because they are mutually exclusive authorities. They also can't be fanatic purifiers because they have their own civic list. There might be a genocidal corp civic, but I'm going to guess almost certainly not sense it doesn't really make a lot of sense. Criminal corp seems like it'll be as bad as it gets.
I don't like that you can only be criminal or not, seems like a real space corporation would do what they want and whether that's criminal would depend on the laws of the nation that they're operating in. And then you might change those laws either diplomatically or by war (as in the opium wars).
Space mafia does sound fun, though. Especially combined with a scummy undesirable species that sneaks in to other planets via your criminal enterprise, forcing neighbors to either go genocidal or tolerate your little crime goblins showing up and giving you CBs.
This would be cooler then it looks like it's going to be.
Edit: Oh, and I guess I should say, another note, the only way to remove a branch office (from a criminal corp or a normal corp you no longer want to allow to operate in your space) is to declare war on them with a special CB, win the war and the branch offices are destroyed and the empire gets a lot of cash. Loose the war and the empire becomes a subsidiary to the corp.
Post by: Teneb on October 24, 2018, 09:10:55 am
I also hope this can be combined with other DLC content, as a rogue servitor corporation seems particularly kino. It might be unusually compatible with fanatic purifiers as well, though I imagine that's disallowed for thematic reasons. A corporation with ecumenopolis and galactic market would be a great choice for the single planet game though.I think Corporate will be a type of authority, which means that servitors or AI in general are right out. I doubt purifiers would be allowed either, since why would you even want to trade with beings you consider mistakes of nature that need to be purged?
E: Ninja'd
Post by: Egan_BW on October 24, 2018, 10:57:02 am
Hopefully we get machine corps, and maybe merchantile hive minds.
Post by: Teneb on October 24, 2018, 11:22:02 am
We won't. They said as much on stream.The closest you could get is having your Corp Empire do the synthetic ascention.
The issue is that megacorp is an authority, much like hive minds and machine empires.
Post by: Telgin on October 24, 2018, 11:25:20 am
Playing as a machine empire is similarly frustrating. You can't play as any kind of robots except as a gestalt consciousness, right? Unless you synthetically ascend, anyway, but there's no way to start out like that.
At least it looks like mods will make that much more practical in 2.2, since you can mod a normal empire's economy to be energy based instead of requiring food.
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on October 24, 2018, 03:15:54 pm
Post by: Teneb on October 24, 2018, 04:19:42 pm
buy from SpaceCoSpaceCo only accepts purchases made in S-Bucks. Unless you are buying S-Bucks, of course.
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 26, 2018, 05:11:10 am
Post by: Majestic7 on October 26, 2018, 07:49:23 am
Post by: Telgin on October 26, 2018, 08:58:08 am
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dqb1gsSX0AAk2Jh.jpg)
I think I like the idea as a replacement or complement to the old pirate system. It makes some logical sense, and it still lets you snake and leave holes up to a point. I'm guessing there will be techs, traditions or ascension perks that also let you tolerate less cohesion without penalties. The mechanic could also easily serve more purposes in the future with rebellions or revolts.
I also just find it funny that the game has so many mechanics centered around discouraging people from taking too many systems and penalizing them if they leave holes in their empire.
Post by: Majestic7 on October 26, 2018, 09:45:05 am
Post by: Criptfeind on October 26, 2018, 09:54:07 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 26, 2018, 02:35:03 pm
I really like the reworked pirates, they steal trade value and only spawn a fleet if they get enough money/power that they feel they can be a threat or cause some havoc.
Post by: Criptfeind on October 26, 2018, 06:14:09 pm
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on October 26, 2018, 06:20:28 pm
Post by: Flying Dice on October 28, 2018, 09:27:13 am
Post by: Blood_Librarian on October 28, 2018, 09:34:54 am
Less possible if they are in the middle of empire space, more possible with patchwork empires.
Post by: Rolan7 on October 28, 2018, 10:20:42 am
Post by: Criptfeind on October 28, 2018, 10:55:48 am
Yeah, the whole "strung-out/disconnected empires have more trouble with coordinated efforts and opportunistic predation by third parties" bit is perfectly reasonable. If you have colonies who are two years out from your nearest coreward colony of course they're not going to be ... more vulnerable to opportunistic raiding.
I just assume its like a heist and the empty spaces and external pockets means a pirate can get in, do the job and then make a quick getaway.
Less possible if they are in the middle of empire space, more possible with patchwork empires.
These statements would make sense if the system was still based around something like piracy. But how does decreasing efficiency and increasing government costs have any justification because there's more jump lanes out of one system then another? How does that have anything to do with piracy (a mechanic that now effects trade and has nothing to do with this) or opportunistic predation? Like, yeah, strung out empires are going to be more open to attack and getting split into halves by enemies. That's modeled in the game already by strung out empires being more open to attack and getting split into halves by enemies. The last game I played I beat a superior enemy because his nation was strung out, I hit him in the middle and split him in half, and he couldn't pull his fleets together into one mass to fight me, that's a perfectly reasonable and logical downside to a "snaking" empire, but this system doesn't do anything like that, its a completely unrelated negative that doesn't make sense.
If you have colonies who are two years out from your nearest coreward colony of course they're not going to be contributing much to ongoing research back homeIf they wanted to model communication lag leading to worse efficiency, they could make it a punishment based on distance from capital that decreases research efficiency overall or just in those systems. Instead in this system you can have totally unoccupied systems that don't continue research at all dragging down your research from your core planets that are all cozied up next to each other because they have too many star lanes jumping away from them. How does that make sense? You can have super far flung systems contributing research without any issues so long as they don't trigger the arbitrary "your empire doesn't fit my aesthetics" alarm that's in the game now.
Post by: Rolan7 on October 28, 2018, 11:10:55 am
Post by: Criptfeind on October 28, 2018, 11:37:05 am
All these justifications make a lot of sense for a system that's not in the game, although the game might better off if it was.
Post by: Rolan7 on October 28, 2018, 11:47:02 am
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on October 28, 2018, 12:59:38 pm
Post by: Telgin on October 28, 2018, 03:21:39 pm
What invisible cargo ship exists in the 2 mineral system on the edge of your empire that's so threatened by 2 hyperlanes instead of 1 that it reduces the research efficiency of your entire empire?
All these justifications make a lot of sense for a system that's not in the game, although the game might better off if it was.
It's all abstraction, but it's probably assumed that it's a matter of government resources being finite. The government can spend more on system patrol craft and monitoring facilities to watch the extra hyperlanes, or it can spend it on research. The mechanics don't directly simulate that, since it should probably be represented as a penalty to research and unity instead, but it's kind of an academic difference.
System patrol craft aren't simulated in game, but there is mention of conflict on the edge of empires that falls below the resolution of combat simulated in game. If you border a marauder empire you can get events related to it, even if you've never actually had any direct combat with them.
I do feel like there's probably a better way to keep large empires from massively out teching smaller neighbors, but this works well enough for me I think. A system more like CKII (and probably other Paradox games) where technology diffuses through territory naturally would probably be a solution, except it's hard to model that in a game like Stellaris with its discrete technologies.
Post by: Egan_BW on October 28, 2018, 05:36:38 pm
Techs that apply to specific buildings and such only apply to the planets that have the techs, while techs with empire-wide effects are weaker until your entire empire adopts it.
See? Simple! ;P
Post by: Rolan7 on October 28, 2018, 05:40:58 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 28, 2018, 05:43:15 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 28, 2018, 06:01:00 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on October 28, 2018, 06:02:31 pm
It's all abstraction, but it's probably assumed that it's a matter of government resources being finite. The government can spend more on system patrol craft and monitoring facilities to watch the extra hyperlanes, or it can spend it on research. The mechanics don't directly simulate that, since it should probably be represented as a penalty to research and unity instead, but it's kind of an academic difference.
System patrol craft aren't simulated in game, but there is mention of conflict on the edge of empires that falls below the resolution of combat simulated in game. If you border a marauder empire you can get events related to it, even if you've never actually had any direct combat with them.
I do feel like there's probably a better way to keep large empires from massively out teching smaller neighbors, but this works well enough for me I think. A system more like CKII (and probably other Paradox games) where technology diffuses through territory naturally would probably be a solution, except it's hard to model that in a game like Stellaris with its discrete technologies.
Although this is a little bit more reasonable then "It's pirates!" or "your non researching edge systems sure have a lot of trouble with research." I think the penalty is way to empire wide to for this to really be reasonable. Maybe something like, take the stations that's currently would decrease empire cohesion, and give them increased upkeep? Fairly large increased empire wide tech costs, and unity costs, and leader costs, it's all way too much to be reasonably simulating small issues with fractious borders. (And once again I think the fact that the quality of the boarders matters less then the quantity gives like to the idea that it's really trying to simulate anything but a mechanical patchjob on a mechanical patchjob)
I don't necessarily think there shouldn't be any penalty, but it's just... It feels like it needs to be a more natural one then they are doing now.
Post by: Cruxador on October 28, 2018, 06:15:19 pm
I do feel like there's probably a better way to keep large empires from massively out teching smaller neighbors, but this works well enough for me I think. A system more like CKII (and probably other Paradox games) where technology diffuses through territory naturally would probably be a solution, except it's hard to model that in a game like Stellaris with its discrete technologies.The problem isn't modeling it, just do it like EU4's institutions where each has its own rate of spread, determined by adjacency of systems with the tech, presence of prerequisites, and factors particular to the tech or the category of tech, and then add bonuses to spread from local scientific buildings and jobs. There might be issues of hardware efficiency, but if you only do the check every month and give it its own thread(s), it should be fine. The real problem is presenting all that information to the player.
It's hard to justify it, though, in the age of instant and efficient communication.That's not necessarily a sound assumption. For one thing, the in-game communication on an interstellar level isn't really faster than communicatino in CK2 or any other Paradox game aside from the difference in the equation resulting from scale. More importantly, technology has already been stated to represent not just technology but the infrastructure and ability to implement it (in Wiz's attempts to defend the concept of empire size penalties to tech) which means that rolling out innovations from a central location is perfectly well in theme. Although it does imply that some measure of industrial or administrative capacity is more important than adjacency.
Post by: Telgin on October 28, 2018, 07:35:06 pm
A simpler way to handle it might be to have some passive bonus to research fields if neighbors have more researched technologies than you in that field, but balancing that would probably be hard. You have to already give up on other resources to focus on research, so if your enemies benefited from you researching harder than them, it would have to be a very small benefit for you to not just prefer minerals / alloys. Not to mention that you can already perform technology catchup by analyzing debris.
Post by: Criptfeind on October 29, 2018, 03:33:47 pm
At first I was like "I'm not sure..." until I remembered that the president of a federation has no power or duties outside of commanding the federation fleet. It feels like a bit of a misnomer actually, maybe federation commander would be clearer. So, actually I quite like the change. Might actually want to play in a federation for once.
Post by: Telgin on October 29, 2018, 03:39:32 pm
Additionally, it looks like all federation members get economic pacts automatically, which makes sense, and some kind of federation tax will be applied to members. I'm assuming that's going to be trade value that just evaporates instead of going to the president, but time will tell.
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 29, 2018, 04:57:31 pm
Post by: Kanil on October 29, 2018, 05:24:25 pm
Thematically it's silly -- it's not really a "federation" anymore, it's just you and your AI vassals.
Mechanically, it's going to make having a federation even more important/powerful than it already is. Also you're going to have to delete all the non-whatever-monofleet-is-best-in-current-year ships the AI builds.
Of course, there is some solace (but not too much, mind!) to be found in the "it'll be fixed in the Diplomacy DLC"... ah, Stellaris...
Post by: Criptfeind on October 29, 2018, 05:42:52 pm
Thematically it's silly -- it's not really a "federation" anymore, it's just you and your AI vassals.
The AI will still have all the privileges that they have right now when they are not the president, which is basically all the privileges. All the president does is command the fleet. I think it makes more sense that the command structure and designs of the fleet doesn't flop around every 10 years and instead that whoever is (in theory) the best equip to handle such command gets to direct it until someone more competent takes over. I do agree that it shouldn't be named president, but the president doesn't command the federation.
Mechanically I think it's a sigh of a relief and actually makes the federation useful, since the federation ships won't be under the command of a totally incompetent AI commander that goes and kamikazes into a blackhole or however they manage to get them killed them after you've spent 10 years building the fleet up and then rebuild it as a ton of random useless designs with "artistic" ideas like taking out all the weapons to save power. Which has basically been every experience I've had with the federations so far.
If you do think federations are too strong though, they are getting an actual nerf, in that federation members have to pay a tax. No word yet on how much that tax will be.
And you don't have to delete all the AI ships, if they make ships to join the federation fleet, they have to use the presidents designs.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on October 29, 2018, 05:44:25 pm
It is nice that the designs will be homogeneous, though.
Post by: Criptfeind on October 29, 2018, 05:46:13 pm
Post by: Cruxador on October 29, 2018, 05:50:18 pm
Thematically it's silly -- it's not really a "federation" anymore, it's just you and your AI vassals.It's Space-NATO.
Post by: Kanil on October 29, 2018, 06:37:14 pm
The AI will still have all the privileges that they have right now when they are not the president, which is basically all the privileges.
And you don't have to delete all the AI ships, if they make ships to join the federation fleet, they have to use the presidents designs.
There's not really much "privilege" one gets from joining a federation. In practice, you just find an AI who's willing to declare wars on people and you're good.
As for the AI ships, correct me if I'm wrong, but the federation is required to have a design for each ship tier unlocked, yes? You can't just be like "the federation doesn't have a cruiser", so the AI can sometimes build cruisers, and then you get the cruisers and they're a waste of fed fleet cap, so you delete them and rebuild corvettes or battleships or whatever because monofleet.
It's Space-NATO.
*snicker*
Post by: Culise on October 29, 2018, 06:50:21 pm
As for the AI ships, correct me if I'm wrong, but the federation is required to have a design for each ship tier unlocked, yes? You can't just be like "the federation doesn't have a cruiser", so the AI can sometimes build cruisers, and then you get the cruisers and they're a waste of fed fleet cap, so you delete them and rebuild corvettes or battleships or whatever because monofleet.I wonder, does the work-around to clear out the last design for a ship tier work for federation designs? That is, build a ship of a different class with the same name, and overwrite. I haven't mucked about with federations since my first game, where I went full diplomacy until it crashed into the facts of how federations worked.
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 29, 2018, 06:50:56 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on October 29, 2018, 07:36:47 pm
There's not really much "privilege" one gets from joining a federation.
Yes, and you still get all of the little of it that exists. Vote on war war, vote on members. Unless you think that the current set up of a federation counts as just the leader and it's vassals (maybe with who the leader is swapping every 10 years) the new systems shouldn't be considered that. The president simply has no extra diplomatic power.
Post by: Kanil on October 29, 2018, 08:45:12 pm
There's not really much "privilege" one gets from joining a federation.
Yes, and you still get all of the little of it that exists. Vote on war war, vote on members. Unless you think that the current set up of a federation counts as just the leader and it's vassals (maybe with who the leader is swapping every 10 years) the new systems shouldn't be considered that. The president simply has no extra diplomatic power.
Well, only having the fed fleet for half the time, and having to rebuild it when you get it back really nerfs it a bit... and makes it feel like the other member is actually an "equal" of some sort. With a permanent president, the other member just exists so you can get your maintenance free ships.
Edit: I guess like currently you are periodically inconvenienced for having a federation. With a permanent president, it's easy to be never inconvenienced. A federation should probably involve some sort of compromise?
Post by: Criptfeind on October 29, 2018, 09:09:54 pm
Post by: Kanil on October 29, 2018, 09:14:54 pm
I mean... Yeah, no inconvenience outside the single biggest part of being in a federation, that your ability to offensively war is controlled by other people.
It's not exactly difficult to convince one AI to vote yes for your wars. It might occasionally require you adjust your targets, but it also opens up new targets due to the increased strength of your empire due to the fed fleet.
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on October 30, 2018, 09:20:15 am
buy from spaceco
Post by: Rolan7 on October 30, 2018, 09:33:31 am
And I think Spaceco, sorry "spaceco", may be a machine intelligence
KOSSBOT go home. Or should I say... KOSS-MOS?
Post by: Teneb on October 30, 2018, 10:31:12 am
Buy SpaceCo.
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on October 30, 2018, 10:50:50 am
Post by: Telgin on October 30, 2018, 12:46:58 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dqw_-4QX4AAcYWw.jpg)
Wiz confirmed that the system can be turned off if you want, and I'm guessing the end year can also be adjusted independently of that or you can continue to play after the end year.
Depending on how the score is calculated, this could be a welcome change, but even if the score is implemented poorly, it can still be turned off.
Post by: Cruxador on October 30, 2018, 01:43:29 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on November 01, 2018, 09:25:42 am
More interesting to me was from twitter on what Agrarian Idyll is going to be:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dq6IWgMWkAAgZwM.jpg:large) (https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/1057933347874357248)
Making it so your rural districts provide a sustainable amount of housing and amenities, and additionally (not pictured but said on twitter) the normal tech increases to city housing will be replaced with tech increases to farm housing, eventually presumably making it so your farms have more housing then even your cities (thus presumably totally supplanting the cities). It's a pretty cool civic for what I assume is suppose to be a sorta go wide and produce a LOT of base resources. Maybe they'll be part of the equation for how to make trade actually work and be a thing worth doing (although I feel like there's a few too many barriers to that right now, but we'll see.)
I wouldn't mind seeing some equivalent civics for rural empires focused on mining and/or energy generation (and maybe slaves) as well, to flesh out the options for low density empires.
Post by: Telgin on November 01, 2018, 09:30:13 am
I really like the way some of the new megastructures look, but it's kind of annoying that the devs haven't answered any questions the posters asked yet. For example, I too am wondering if the structure that boosts defense platforms grants a max bonus to every star base or what that meant. Being able to plop down 40+ defense platforms on a starbase would make them genuinely useful for holding chokepoints.
I'm undecided if I'll end up using ecumenopoli yet. After seeing some numbers, they actually look like they'll be very good, but the fact that it takes another ascension perk may make it a hard sell to me, especially now that sources of unity are going to be substantially more rare. It looks like the devs are trying to make it so that you're much less guaranteed to unlock all 8 ascension perk slots by the end game year now, which may be a good thing. It increases the value of the choices you make, although it's going to make some of those choices really hard if some restrictions aren't removed in the process.
Post by: Criptfeind on November 01, 2018, 10:31:01 am
Post by: Telgin on November 01, 2018, 10:49:35 am
A ton of players are calling for the ability to build multiple megastructures in parallel now, given how many there are, and I think I'll jump aboard that train. Some people suggested letting the Master Builders perk allow you to build two in parallel, and that seems reasonable to me. There are some balance issues though. Megastructures are really becoming kind of a necessary thing to have and the time requirement forces you to prioritize and make choices, but I really like building them so I'm not overly bothered by letting empires build more than one at a time.
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on November 01, 2018, 12:21:47 pm
Post by: Trekkin on November 01, 2018, 12:39:40 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on November 01, 2018, 12:48:10 pm
Post by: Telgin on November 01, 2018, 01:11:39 pm
Post by: Trekkin on November 01, 2018, 01:45:22 pm
Some kind of equivalent to machine worlds would make a lot of sense, but the ecumenopoli as they are wouldn't make much sense. They probably could just change up how the city arcology districts work, but it would be even better if there was a thematic version that fit more along with hive minds. What that is I honestly don't know, since I haven't ever played as them, but maybe a bonus to empire cohesion or unity.
Pop growth speed would make some sense, but hive minds have little to them thematically as it stands.
It does depend on how you see ecumenopoli, though. I assume that they're intended to be a fuzzy catchall for all the SFnal ways people develop a planet to the extent of its available surface area and artificially compensate for the environmental and thermodynamic consequences. It certainly feels like hive minds should be able to develop planet-scale beehives if normal empires can build planet-scale cities, and having some kind of allocatable "and this giant mass of drones will build these things" mechanic analogous to ecumenopolis districts is a logical way to do that.
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 01, 2018, 02:22:48 pm
One thing I'm wondering is if ecumenopoli will be limited to one per empire. I'm expecting that they won't be, since there are heavy costs involved and some downsides, and I guess they're kind of analogous to ringworlds in some ways.Martin said in one of the streams that they are not limited, but he warned that they can be very very difficult to maintain. They cannot support themselves at all, as you cannot farm or mine on them and since the population can go into the hundreds they will require huge inflows of minerals and food to sustain.
Post by: Telgin on November 01, 2018, 02:40:10 pm
Post by: Trekkin on November 01, 2018, 02:56:48 pm
Post by: Telgin on November 01, 2018, 03:12:25 pm
I'm actually kind of surprised they didn't just ditch the 4-segment concept with this patch and increase it to 200 districts. The main reason I can think of is the planetary modifiers for specializing it will work better this way, where you can have a segment dedicated to growing food that becomes an agri-world for the +5-10% to food generation. Or whatever the numbers end up being.
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 01, 2018, 03:39:32 pm
Post by: umiman on November 01, 2018, 03:49:11 pm
Yeah each ringworld segment will be size 50 now, supporting huge numbers of pops. I expect there will be mods which alter ringworlds further, in fact I'm planning to make one for my own purposes which sets each segment to something like size 1000 if that works.Jesus.
How would it even fit on the screen? Oh wait, they're changing the whole pop system aren't they.
Post by: Telgin on November 01, 2018, 03:53:39 pm
Post by: Trekkin on November 01, 2018, 04:23:42 pm
The big (heh) issue there is how it would display that many district squares. I'd fully expect some graphical hilarity on the planet detail screen, although it may function perfectly fine.
Yeah. That's why I think bigger districts might be a more user-friendly solution.
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 01, 2018, 04:36:28 pm
The big (heh) issue there is how it would display that many district squares. I'd fully expect some graphical hilarity on the planet detail screen, although it may function perfectly fine.Good point. Maybe I'll just make new districts which would extend the 'effective size' due to larger outputs and job numbers. There may only be 50 district spots but if one district had 20x the effect of a normal one, it would effectively be the same as 20 of those single districts.
I can only imagine the costs in consumer goods and food that a size 4000 fully populated ringworld would require.
Post by: Criptfeind on November 01, 2018, 05:39:01 pm
I'm just hoping that at some point they acknowledge that each ring world segment is thousands of planets' worth of habitable surface area, which seems like it'd be moddable with special gigantic ringworld-only districts if not actually built in. (After which it'd be nice for a ringworld to be a single object rather than four of them.)
I'm sure this won't ever happen. Because it just goes way past the scale of the game. If you let ringworlds be a realistic size either you increase the building costs as well to an impossible to reach but realistic level, or... Don't, and as soon as the first ringworld is made it eclipses the rest of the game as you have like stellaris Galaxy<Ringworld. For the same reason that a Dyson sphere doesn't just totally remove any idea of energy as a limitation in the game. It'd be too game changing.
It'd be really cool if these complete dynamic shifts were in the game, where the game fundamentally changed as you went up the Kardashev scale, but it'd be a completely different game.
Post by: Telgin on November 01, 2018, 05:43:26 pm
Actually, I only assume you won't be able to do that in vanilla. It would make sense to be able to, but I imagine it won't be allowed.
I'm also curious if ecumenopoli may actually end up being effectively self sustaining through the galactic market by trading off goods manufactured in exchange for food and raw materials. Probably not, or at least not for long once you start buying up so much.
Post by: Criptfeind on November 01, 2018, 05:57:56 pm
Actually, I only assume you won't be able to do that in vanilla. It would make sense to be able to, but I imagine it won't be allowed.
I think it's been confirmed that you can't do that. Ringworlds are going to get their own districts though. Efficent for food and energy. No minerals.
We don't really know much about the numbers that are going to be involved in the market at all. Perhaps it will be lucrative enough and with enough price decay to make self sufficient planets that make shit and pull raw resources from the aether work. I doubt it'll be efficient, but maybe possible. If there was more reason to use the market, maybe you'd have an easier time keeping the prices sane, because people would want to sell to you. But who knows.
Post by: Trekkin on November 01, 2018, 09:36:19 pm
I'm sure this won't ever happen. Because it just goes way past the scale of the game. If you let ringworlds be a realistic size either you increase the building costs as well to an impossible to reach but realistic level, or... Don't, and as soon as the first ringworld is made it eclipses the rest of the game as you have like stellaris Galaxy<Ringworld.
I could see a ringworld being quasi-realistically limited by population growth rates to being an initially small source of resources that will increase in productivity without meaningful limit given enough time (with human assumptions, probably centuries), particularly if they can't be self-sustaining. Then it's more of a thing that will eventually make you invincible provided you can keep the rest of the galaxy from seizing and/or destroying it or its mineral supply, which could be a neat way to play tall.
Something to mod, I suppose.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on November 02, 2018, 02:46:40 am
It is difficult to make a dystopia in Stellaris - my natural instinct to play well and efficiently intervenes - but Im hoping the changes will let me pull it off while otherwise retaining a somewhat functional empire. Hmm, maybe if I play a crime syndicate and make everyone elses worlds like that...
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 02, 2018, 10:05:48 am
I feel compelled to make it once the game is updated with beautiful vic2 mechanics
Post by: Teneb on November 02, 2018, 10:21:13 am
Yesterday I had a dream about making a Stellaris mod, which is odd as I haven't played Stellaris at all in a while. The mod in question was a total overhaul, & a fairly simple one at that, with very few actual mechanical changes. In the dream the rate of star system generation was greatly reduced, while the rate of black hole / blank system generation was greatly increased. Events were fiddled with so you'd get occasional rare events like finding a starving prethoryn fleet or a rare event with a MTTH of 500 making a star system supernova and take out every planet in the system. Ship maintenance was increased to the point where even a flotilla of 3 corvettes was a significant fleet, while repeatable techs were greatly nerfed. The various megabeasts were nerfed combats-wise to compensate for the smaller fleets, but the solar parasite was more like an end-game crisis as if it was left alone for too long, it would devour the solar system's star before moving on to the next system until it was killed / the galaxy went dark. The localisation was changed and some events fiddled with in order to make the playthrough one that was taking place close to the heat death of the universe, with your star empire being amongst the few remaining civilisations before the last stars all go out. The end-game diverged in several paths based around attempts to survive the heat death of the universe, from merging the universe with the shroud, to closing the loop, to creating a micro-universeSeems like a great idea, actually.
I feel compelled to make it once the game is updated with beautiful vic2 mechanics
Post by: Telgin on November 02, 2018, 10:34:20 am
Unrelated, but someone noticed a benefit to ecumenopoleis (which I just discovered is the proper plural...) that I didn't earlier, which does make them more attractive. While a ring world has a potentially higher max population, ecumenopoleis have far fewer districts for the same population counts, which will impose less penalties based on empire size. That changes my feelings on them somewhat, but I'll still have to wait and see how the empire size works out in practice before I make any decision on whether to use them or not.
Post by: Rolan7 on November 02, 2018, 04:33:52 pm
Fanatic Spiritualist Militarists, but I wouldn't describe us as crusaders. We're a Corporate Dominion who happens to have a Distinguished Admiralty.
We're not exactly "religious", we just want power overwhelming, gold, and to ban necromancy. We're the Scyldari Mage Guild.
Because spellcasting will always be OP
And naturally my first two neighbors were literally mirrors of my ideology, fanatical materialistic pacifists. A despotism and a democracy, oddly, but they still formed treaties easily because neither is egalitarian. It's okay, they're pacifists.
Third neighbor is also pacifist - fanatic authoritarian. As someone who tended to start out pacifist and "randomly" surrounded by militants, this feels pretty good.
I understand they have bonuses and will join together if I threaten them, but at least they aren't bashing down my door as I try to carve out my space. Nice neighbors.
Gotta fix that soulless materialism (martial classes amirite?) but besides that, very nice. I still have access to liberation wars, if I don't go for vassalization instead.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on November 03, 2018, 09:27:50 am
Post by: Cruxador on November 03, 2018, 10:53:06 am
I'm officially in the "habitat snowball" phase of gameplay and I have to bail out one of my tributaries. I kicked their ass a little harder than I planned and now they have literally no fleet and no capacity to create one. Pirates have destroyed everything they own, there are three pirate groups fighting each other because the interstellar empire officially has nothing else to plunder. I have to give them a cash infusion and spank their enemies if I want to get that income stream back.That's what happens when you destabilize governments, Cheney.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on November 04, 2018, 09:44:58 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on November 04, 2018, 10:52:57 pm
Unless I'm totally misremembering, Status quo is you get the claims you're currently occupying, surrender is you get all your claims occupied or not and whatever your war goal is.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on November 04, 2018, 11:33:10 pm
Unless they've changed how the war system works since last time I played a non genocidal race, Status Quo is always better then surrender. If you'd gain all their systems except one in a Status Quo, that means in surrender you'd gain all their systems but one AND they'd be forced to become your tributary.
Unless I'm totally misremembering, Status quo is you get the claims you're currently occupying, surrender is you get all your claims occupied or not and whatever your war goal is.
Surrender enforces your demands full stop, status quo basically enforces them on whatever systems you've occupied. If you have claims on an occupied system you take it, and if you're fighting a war of liberation or subjugation you liberate or subjugate all captured systems. A visual might help establish how badly this can suck.
Spoiler: Here's the Ancient Technosethi Empire with my bootprints on their ass (click to show/hide)
That last system, Keshem, is so packed with colonies that it counts for enough occupation score to prevent them from surrendering. Since I haven't made any claims if they surrendered at that moment they would become my tributary but they wouldn't lose a single system.
Spoiler: Here's what happened when my warscore hit 100% (click to show/hide)
Post by: Criptfeind on November 05, 2018, 06:51:55 am
Right, this new way seems easier on the old actually getting it to work, since it used to be damn near impossible to get AI too surrender and sometimes even taking 100% of their systems wasn't enough, but damn if that doesn't seem like it'd make it almost too easy to just rip apart people with the CB. Sounds like the AI really needs a tweak then.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on November 05, 2018, 08:18:49 am
Post by: Digital Hellhound on November 08, 2018, 02:52:06 pm
Post by: Trekkin on November 08, 2018, 03:12:14 pm
Anyone interested in some multiplayer Stellaris once the DLC drops?
Maybe wait to schedule that until "once the DLC drops" has a more specific time frame than Soontm?
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 08, 2018, 03:14:00 pm
That said, I'd be happy to play after the DLC does drop. I even plan to buy it, so if I end up hosting anyone else playing can experience it as well.
Post by: Teneb on November 08, 2018, 10:05:30 pm
Post by: Persus13 on November 08, 2018, 10:22:16 pm
Post by: Cruxador on November 08, 2018, 10:26:02 pm
Post by: Telgin on November 08, 2018, 10:37:48 pm
I think someone in the dev diary thread had a better idea for how they should work. They should probably increase trade value of the systems they're in, and probably have some impacts on populace happiness and crime. Making pacts with them to let your populace gamble at their homeworld for similar effects would make a lot of sense too, and probably be more in theme with sci-fi tropes.
But it's fine. I'll probably just ignore them in game.
Post by: Telgin on November 08, 2018, 11:00:16 pm
Post by: Broseph Stalin on November 08, 2018, 11:07:29 pm
edit: I get the joke, that kind of thing is funny exactly once and then just in the way.
Post by: Telgin on November 09, 2018, 12:08:33 am
Post by: Kanil on November 09, 2018, 01:55:06 am
edit: I get the joke, that kind of thing is funny exactly once and then just in the way.
Agreed. Should have been written as like an anomaly or something.
Post by: Trekkin on November 09, 2018, 02:19:54 pm
edit: I get the joke, that kind of thing is funny exactly once and then just in the way.
Agreed. Should have been written as like an anomaly or something.
It would have made a hilarious anomaly if written along the lines of the one about how Earth looks like it died of pollution, but that's obviously ridiculous since who would be that myopic? Maybe let us find the last lootbox as a special project or something.
Heck, I'd even think it was funny as the reason one of the precursor civilizations died: an apocalyptic war over lootboxes.
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 09, 2018, 05:26:51 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on November 15, 2018, 10:07:58 am
Slave market seems very simple. You put slaves up for a fixed price based on traits. People can buy them for a fixed price based on traits. Not much else to the diary. Since I guess they need three things per diary minimum, Mandates are going to be one of the things that are changing in this update, along with everything else.
Not sure if how a fixed price is going to properly represent the value of the slave. Seems like it'll probably be too cheap or too expensive to bother with, but we'll see.
Post by: Telgin on November 15, 2018, 10:13:37 am
I can't see myself ever using the slave market, unless they do decide to allow robotic (non synthetic) pops to be sold there. It would give roboticists something to do if your current population is maxed out or you otherwise don't need the robots, and could help expand if you're short on pops during an expansionary phase.
Then again, I might finally be tempted to play a real good-goody federation builder empire that also buys slaves to free them. I've never played an evil empire or even one that was hostile, but I've always played as very xenophobic in Stellaris for some reason.
Otherwise, it's cool that driven assimilators can buy slaves to assimilate, and I hope they do change marauders so that they put your abducted pops up for sale on the market.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 15, 2018, 10:18:40 am
The galactic slave market seems bigger to me in terms of fleshing out the world and providing expansion options outside of conquest, including the changes to migration treaties. Gives you a way to colonize different worlds earlier through buying appropriate pops for the climate you want to colonize.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on November 15, 2018, 10:39:09 am
Post by: Teneb on November 15, 2018, 11:04:02 am
If the AI actively buys them, then you could have some serious fun by genemodding a LW-style "locust" pop who is useless but reproduces insanely fast and tanks happiness in planets.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 15, 2018, 11:08:58 am
Post by: Broseph Stalin on November 15, 2018, 11:16:31 am
Will at the very least let you do stupid shit like the achievements for having many different species on a single planet, or having most of your pops be slaves.You can already do that with refugees, I gene modded the Big Stupid Jellyfish to be unlikable, contrary, and incapable of feeding itself then kicked them all out.
If the AI actively buys them, then you could have some serious fun by genemodding a LW-style "locust" pop who is useless but reproduces insanely fast and tanks happiness in planets.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 15, 2018, 11:27:21 am
If the AI actively buys them, then you could have some serious fun by genemodding a LW-style "locust" pop who is useless but reproduces insanely fast and tanks happiness in planets.
Interestingly, they'd be cheaper, so perhaps the AI would be even more likely to buy them!
That said, it'll depend on the specific calculations of jobs/output. Low stratum pops may be valuable just by filling low stratum slots even if they're inefficient at it, since high-stratum pops won't take low-stratum jobs.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 15, 2018, 11:36:27 am
Post by: Teneb on November 15, 2018, 11:41:56 am
Yeah, but with the market you can finally get them into xenophobic empires that won't take immigrants or refugees!Will at the very least let you do stupid shit like the achievements for having many different species on a single planet, or having most of your pops be slaves.You can already do that with refugees, I gene modded the Big Stupid Jellyfish to be unlikable, contrary, and incapable of feeding itself then kicked them all out.
If the AI actively buys them, then you could have some serious fun by genemodding a LW-style "locust" pop who is useless but reproduces insanely fast and tanks happiness in planets.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on November 15, 2018, 02:18:05 pm
Post by: Teneb on November 15, 2018, 02:21:37 pm
I have to wonder...how good does the full Biological ascension path become when combined with xenos compatibility? +2 trait picks combined with the ability to eventually breed populations with all the ascendancy traits looks quite strong.It might be what finally puts biological on a similar level with the other two (though psi is probably still the strongest).
Post by: Criptfeind on November 15, 2018, 02:29:09 pm
Funnily enough I'm not sure that bio will actually mesh that well with Xenocapability, with bio you can already specialize your dudes pretty well, +2 trait points might be excessive unless you're trying to make an über generalist. And a bunch of randomized traits is going to weaken your specialization most likely. If there's some even specialized combos that need +2 points though it might be good.
Post by: Teneb on November 15, 2018, 02:33:38 pm
Biological is currently the strongest and psi is currently the weakest. But bio requires a lot of micromanagement that won't be necessary or possible in the upcoming economy, which to me means they'll either be really really strong, or you'll constantly be screwed by how jobs and migration and all that stuff works and they'll suck.And that is what I get for talking about meta when I haven't played the game properly in a while!
Post by: Criptfeind on November 15, 2018, 02:45:39 pm
Imo from a mechanical perspective the big benefit of psi is you don't have to dump a ton of research into it, you just get it for free once you take the perk. Also the chosen one is clearly the coolest frood.
Post by: Teneb on November 15, 2018, 02:54:48 pm
Honestly it's been that way for a long time (so I'm not sure why anyone would have ever said Psi was the strongest, but I'd be interested in knowing why) at one point synth was the best (I did a lot of very boring posts on this matter in this thread a while ago) but bio got buffed and synth got bugfixed or something so now bio is pretty clearly the bestest. Psi always had much weaker bonuses over all. A couple of minor bonuses to unity and research can't stack up to synth and ascended bio traits that give massive bonuses to everything. In theory some of the shroud stuff is good but that's super random and in my experience it's really rare to get the good stuff, and the basic stuff like targeting, jump and shields aren't worth it.I was basing it off when I last played the game extensively... which was when ascencions were added and psi has the most stuff going for it. Since then I've only done really short sessions and haven't gotten to ascension stuff again. Hence me speaking out of my backside.
Imo from a mechanical perspective the big benefit of psi is you don't have to dump a ton of research into it, you just get it for free once you take the perk. Also the chosen one is clearly the coolest frood.
Post by: Telgin on November 15, 2018, 05:17:04 pm
The real strength with bio ascension was to make specialized pops, from what I gather, so your miners, energy producers and so on do even better than a flat +5% or +10% bonus would give. That makes sense, I suppose.
Post by: Teneb on November 15, 2018, 05:25:58 pm
Post by: Grim Portent on November 15, 2018, 05:31:20 pm
I could never figure out how to genemod specific pops on planets, only all of them.
That was basically what you did as I recall. I used to make a planet do one thing and just stack every multiplier onto it I could, mineral planets that only produced minerals and only had mineral making pops on them, science planets with all science pops and so on. You lost out on some tile bonuses, but generally swamped them out on stacking % bonuses.
EDIT: Not played enough Stellaris since early after the machine empires came out, so not sure how it's done these days mind you.
Post by: Telgin on November 15, 2018, 05:32:46 pm
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on November 15, 2018, 08:52:14 pm
Biological is currently the strongest and psi is currently the weakest. But bio requires a lot of micromanagement that won't be necessary or possible in the upcoming economy, which to me means they'll either be really really strong, or you'll constantly be screwed by how jobs and migration and all that stuff works and they'll suck.
Funnily enough I'm not sure that bio will actually mesh that well with Xenocapability, with bio you can already specialize your dudes pretty well, +2 trait points might be excessive unless you're trying to make an über generalist. And a bunch of randomized traits is going to weaken your specialization most likely. If there's some even specialized combos that need +2 points though it might be good.
It's not +2 trait points, it's +2 trait picks. Admittedly, the point still stands.
Post by: Criptfeind on November 15, 2018, 08:59:16 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dp3MoimW4AILP3b.jpg)
We also see that a hybrid species has 6 picks in another image, but it's unclear if that represents a permanent increase to picks that you can then use when modding them, or if it's like the other event trait gains that let you go over the pick limit but you don't gain the pick slots when modding.
Post by: Trekkin on November 15, 2018, 09:42:31 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 15, 2018, 10:54:04 pm
Honestly it's been that way for a long time (so I'm not sure why anyone would have ever said Psi was the strongest, but I'd be interested in knowing why) at one point synth was the best (I did a lot of very boring posts on this matter in this thread a while ago) but bio got buffed and synth got bugfixed or something so now bio is pretty clearly the bestest. Psi always had much weaker bonuses over all. A couple of minor bonuses to unity and research can't stack up to synth and ascended bio traits that give massive bonuses to everything. In theory some of the shroud stuff is good but that's super random and in my experience it's really rare to get the good stuff, and the basic stuff like targeting, jump and shields aren't worth it.Psi lets you suicide bomb the galaxy by summoning the end. If you manage to keep a 25 size gaia holy world pristine and clean you can reset the galaxy for lols with a good chance of rebuilding in time to end the end
Imo from a mechanical perspective the big benefit of psi is you don't have to dump a ton of research into it, you just get it for free once you take the perk. Also the chosen one is clearly the coolest frood.
Post by: umiman on November 16, 2018, 01:59:09 pm
Doesn't it guarantee you a "victory" because they always save you for last?Honestly it's been that way for a long time (so I'm not sure why anyone would have ever said Psi was the strongest, but I'd be interested in knowing why) at one point synth was the best (I did a lot of very boring posts on this matter in this thread a while ago) but bio got buffed and synth got bugfixed or something so now bio is pretty clearly the bestest. Psi always had much weaker bonuses over all. A couple of minor bonuses to unity and research can't stack up to synth and ascended bio traits that give massive bonuses to everything. In theory some of the shroud stuff is good but that's super random and in my experience it's really rare to get the good stuff, and the basic stuff like targeting, jump and shields aren't worth it.Psi lets you suicide bomb the galaxy by summoning the end. If you manage to keep a 25 size gaia holy world pristine and clean you can reset the galaxy for lols with a good chance of rebuilding in time to end the end
Imo from a mechanical perspective the big benefit of psi is you don't have to dump a ton of research into it, you just get it for free once you take the perk. Also the chosen one is clearly the coolest frood.
So Psi basically means you are guaranteed to win.
Not that losing is particularly easy but you know... in multiplayer this is a pretty important distinction.
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 16, 2018, 02:45:47 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 16, 2018, 02:50:58 pm
Doesn't it guarantee you a "victory" because they always save you for last?Honestly it's been that way for a long time (so I'm not sure why anyone would have ever said Psi was the strongest, but I'd be interested in knowing why) at one point synth was the best (I did a lot of very boring posts on this matter in this thread a while ago) but bio got buffed and synth got bugfixed or something so now bio is pretty clearly the bestest. Psi always had much weaker bonuses over all. A couple of minor bonuses to unity and research can't stack up to synth and ascended bio traits that give massive bonuses to everything. In theory some of the shroud stuff is good but that's super random and in my experience it's really rare to get the good stuff, and the basic stuff like targeting, jump and shields aren't worth it.Psi lets you suicide bomb the galaxy by summoning the end. If you manage to keep a 25 size gaia holy world pristine and clean you can reset the galaxy for lols with a good chance of rebuilding in time to end the end
Imo from a mechanical perspective the big benefit of psi is you don't have to dump a ton of research into it, you just get it for free once you take the perk. Also the chosen one is clearly the coolest frood.
So Psi basically means you are guaranteed to win.
Not that losing is particularly easy but you know... in multiplayer this is a pretty important distinction.
Even if you can do it in MP, it would be trivial for someone to pick you off before the end of cycle wipes everyone else out.
Post by: Kanil on November 16, 2018, 04:12:35 pm
It seems like the ultimate way to troll an MP game. Of course, you can't... but how glorious it would be if you could.
Post by: umiman on November 16, 2018, 04:42:31 pm
I think the end cycle event is disabled for MP without modsRight. No fun allowed.
Then yeah. I can't think of any reason to choose Psi over the other two.
Hell, Psi actively sabotages you a lot of the times with the Shroud.
Post by: Telgin on November 16, 2018, 04:45:45 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 16, 2018, 04:49:56 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 19, 2018, 04:54:30 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on November 19, 2018, 05:03:11 pm
ib4 trade is immune to enemy occupation but war wariness reduces it or something.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on November 19, 2018, 05:16:58 pm
Post by: Teneb on November 19, 2018, 05:40:09 pm
Post by: Broseph Stalin on November 19, 2018, 05:46:41 pm
Yeah, that'd be pretty great, a nice an natural way of punishing empires that overextend themselves by making them vulnerable to outside predation.Seconded, I love systems that allow me to fight wars with strategies more complex than "have the biggest numbers". The idea of separating an ecumenopolis from the empire's breadbasket and forcing them into starvation or trade deals that sap materiel while they're trying to reinforce their fleets is making me salivate
ib4 trade is immune to enemy occupation but war wariness reduces it or something.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 20, 2018, 08:57:35 am
Then six months from now it will be remade completely.
haha, paradox doesn't work that fast
Post by: Criptfeind on November 20, 2018, 09:05:02 am
Post by: Broseph Stalin on November 20, 2018, 09:22:54 am
Megacorp announced for December 6th. Pretty soon, sooner then I thought.
I guess that's also a release date for Le Guin since they're coming down together
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 20, 2018, 09:26:45 am
Post by: Telgin on November 20, 2018, 10:15:34 am
Not going to complain though. I'm sure it'll need several bugfix releases soon after the initial launch, so the sooner it's out, the sooner those can get done.
Post by: Cruxador on November 21, 2018, 12:10:38 am
Post by: Viken on November 21, 2018, 12:34:30 am
Post by: Cruxador on November 21, 2018, 01:10:56 am
Yes, and it'll kill off half the usable mods in the process. Still, new content and better systems are always something to look forward to.The mods will be updated in time. Better to improve the base system and let other content catch up than to have a polished turd of a game.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 21, 2018, 10:05:48 am
Such choices!
Post by: MorleyDev on November 21, 2018, 12:45:40 pm
* Vanilla playthrough
* Slightly Modded playthrough
* Stupidly modded playthrough
* New version releases
* Vanilla playthrough
...Come to think about it, that's also the Dwarf Fortress cycle.
And with the amount of extra hooks for resources they've added to this release, the Stellaris modding scene could get pretty interesting.
Post by: Teneb on November 21, 2018, 07:16:14 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 21, 2018, 08:02:29 pm
Noticed no one linke the really good trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHqZa8X7XZs). Also I guess it's pretty much confirmed now that the trailers from Utopia onwards are forming a storyline.I feel a deep sense of hollowness in my literary gut, I feel like we missed out on a sick narrative-based strategy game and instead got a shallow 4X with a billion plates of DLC to make it THICC
Nevertheless, fucking ace. Tickles my fancy for deepest lore
Post by: Cruxador on November 22, 2018, 11:38:01 am
Maybe these trailers are an extended teaser for an eventual story mode DLC.Noticed no one linke the really good trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHqZa8X7XZs). Also I guess it's pretty much confirmed now that the trailers from Utopia onwards are forming a storyline.I feel a deep sense of hollowness in my literary gut, I feel like we missed out on a sick narrative-based strategy game and instead got a shallow 4X with a billion plates of DLC to make it THICC
Nevertheless, fucking ace. Tickles my fancy for deepest lore
Post by: Aoi on November 25, 2018, 02:10:38 pm
Post by: Telgin on November 25, 2018, 05:43:51 pm
Post by: Dutrius on November 27, 2018, 12:44:02 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on November 27, 2018, 12:52:50 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 27, 2018, 12:59:04 pm
Not looked at the game in nearly a year. Have they reverted the FTL changes they made in version 2.0 yet? I'm still pissed off that they did that.
lolol never happen
Post by: Dutrius on November 27, 2018, 01:06:26 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on November 27, 2018, 01:10:12 pm
Post by: Dutrius on November 27, 2018, 01:17:16 pm
There are no railroads in space.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 27, 2018, 02:14:43 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 27, 2018, 02:20:29 pm
Post by: Dutrius on November 27, 2018, 02:26:01 pm
Yeah they're never going to revert a change that made the game better. And it IS better.
No. Just no.
doing away with planet tiles
*Sigh.* I didn't think it was possible to lose any more hope for the game.
Post by: Criptfeind on November 27, 2018, 02:32:03 pm
I used to sorta like the tiles, defended them on this thread a while back even I think. After playing a few max pop growth specialized pops builds in a row though I've come around to realizing that they need to go.
The fact that replacing them with the job system has really opened up the potential scale of the game is a bonus as well.
Post by: Telgin on November 27, 2018, 02:36:05 pm
I guess you can argue that it's not the same, but I never found the old view to be particularly compelling as a way to visualize the planets' surfaces anyway.
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 27, 2018, 02:50:36 pm
You LIKED the tile system?doing away with planet tiles
*Sigh.* I didn't think it was possible to lose any more hope for the game.
The tile system was the reason that planets were limited to 25 possible pops, and the primary reason the AI had such trouble with managing planets. The new system is miles better both at simulating an actual economy and population stratification in societies that should have such stratification. You couldn't have different pops, such as nobles or technicians, in the tile system because every pop was equivalent in status.
Also ringworlds will be much closer to actual ringworlds, habitats will be properly differentiated from planetary colonies. The change overall is very very good looking. We won't know until we play, obviously, but so far in the dev clash it has seemed extremely positive.
Out of curiosity, what is your reasoning for liking the old FTL system? The new system feels and plays so much better that I have a hard time imagining why you'd prefer the old.
Post by: Dutrius on November 27, 2018, 02:53:06 pm
To be fair, I haven't actually read up about the job system. This is the first I've heard of it. It might be amazing, but its not going to get me back into the game to check out until they fix the problems I have with hyperlanes.
And by fix hyperlanes, I mean put an optional alternative in. Maybe some sort of station that can create temporary tunnel between systems, let's call it a "Wormhole" for now. Or maybe some sort of way of relatively slowly moving between a system and any other in a certain range, let's call it a "Warpdrive". And players can restrict it to a single FTL type if they want to. Oh wait...
Pre-edit edit: Oh, so it's more like pops in Vic2? Then I approve of this change and withdraw my pessimism about it.
Out of curiosity, what is your reasoning for liking the old FTL system? The new system feels and plays so much better that I have a hard time imagining why you'd prefer the old.
I just despise hyperlanes. I have no idea why people like them so much.
Post by: Trekkin on November 27, 2018, 02:57:38 pm
I just despise hyperlanes. I have no idea why people like them so much.
Because explicit graphs are easier to understand and symmetry makes balance easy. Boring, but easy.
Wormholes and warp drives mean you forgo having a series of bright lines saying "you can go here." That makes pathfinding easier, as well, and Stellaris AI frankly needs the help.
For the record, I agree with you on wormholes and warpdrives being better, although I'm more a fan of wormholes. I just can see why the added complexity would overwhelm the devs when they're already booked solid deciding on new ways in which everyone who disagrees with them is a toxic bigot.
Post by: Telgin on November 27, 2018, 03:01:56 pm
There would have been ways to do that with the other FTL types too, and they did consider things like warp interdiction bubbles around stations. The problem was that it was just too confusing to have to figure out if your empire was defensible against 3 different types of FTL types. How do you present all of that information on the map without crowding it out?
Wormhole travel was apparently a major resource hog too, so there's that. I actually don't even know how wormhole FTL travel worked in Stellaris, since I used warp in the one game I played before 2.0.
All of this said, I wouldn't have minded if they opted to drop wormholes and hyperlanes in favor of leaving warp drives in, with interdiction bubbles around defense stations that pulled ships out of warp to the stations. It would have had a similar level of strategic depth and a bit more flexibility.
Post by: LoSboccacc on November 27, 2018, 03:03:38 pm
Post by: Dutrius on November 27, 2018, 03:13:49 pm
How do you present all of that information on the map without crowding it out?
Mapmodes. Like in every other paradox grand strategy game on the Clausewitz engine.
ship were disabled for an extended period after warping
They did have that. Fleets would have a warp cool-down where they couldn't move in system and fought with a disadvantage if another fleet engaged them. It was over a month long by the late game and was the only issue I've ever had with warp. Chasing down fleets using hyperlane or wormhole was a pain in the ass.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 27, 2018, 03:14:55 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 27, 2018, 03:28:24 pm
And by fix hyperlanes, I mean put an optional alternative in.Unfortunately for you I think they're here to stay at this point. I don't understand why you despise them so much, it's just connections between nodes on a grid. They make for better gameplay in that they allow defenses and known routes. There are the late-game jump drives which can bypass hyperlanes at a cost, the fleet is temporarily weakened to prevent players jumping a fleet directly into combat (unless you have such an overwhelming force disparity that it doesn't matter in which case why didn't you just break the defense stations?)
The hyperlane system makes the "terrain" of space matter, it makes chokepoints and makes some locations more or less strategically desirable. No it isn't realistic but realism doesn't always make for good gameplay.
Old stellaris warfare turned into weird chases where a jump drive ship would pop around its jump stations trying to nail down a warp drive ship but never quite catching it, or a hyperlane ship taking ages to make the same trek a jump ship could make in a single jump. It was weird and unintuitive and just didn't work well. SOTS did so much better with FTL differences.
Post by: Dutrius on November 27, 2018, 03:33:51 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 27, 2018, 03:47:13 pm
I really don't get this obsession with chokepoints and "terrain". It's a bloody space game ffs.It isn't an obsession, plenty of games DON'T do it, this specific game does. I don't seek out games with hyperlanes. In any case, if you want a totally realistic space combat simulator try something like Children of a Dead Earth. It's kind of a blast if you can wrap your head around orbital mechanics.
Post by: Criptfeind on November 27, 2018, 05:17:52 pm
I really don't get this obsession with chokepoints and "terrain". It's a bloody space game ffs.
Because without them, the galaxy is very small and boring.
Like, even with them the galaxy is small and boring. But it's better then it was without them.
Post by: Nelia Hawk on November 27, 2018, 07:00:58 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 27, 2018, 07:04:08 pm
i think you could just max out hyperlanes connections or something in the start game settings to basically connect everything to everything else around too if you dont like the "terrain/chokes" stuffThat IS an option. One of the devs gave a screenshot of a setup like that:
https://twitter.com/martin_anward/status/952976043425566720?lang=en
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on November 27, 2018, 07:28:29 pm
Post by: umiman on November 27, 2018, 07:53:14 pm
I really don't get this obsession with chokepoints and "terrain". It's a bloody space game ffs.I think at some point we all have to draw a line as to what immersion level we're willing to accept when it comes to games.
Space games especially.
--------------
A realistic 4X game about space would be... pretty boring. Space is so vast we'd in all likelihood never encounter another species capable of interstellar travel or even cognitive thought let alone life thanks to the Fermi Paradox.
Then there's the thought of interstellar travel in the first place and thanks to relatively we're basically going nowhere ever. And if we did, the travel times and travel speeds would be so insane that it wouldn't be so much of "travelling to another solar system" in so much as it is "sending our history in a time capsule to another solar system".
What about space combat? There's so many ways they could play out but it'd never be like games. There would likely be no close range engagements with massive battleships shooting each other with lasers. How would you even catch anyone ever? We already have so much trouble with it in real life navies as most battles involve trying to track down the target across the open ocean in the first place. How do we do that across light years? Across four massive dimensions?! If anything we wouldn't even bother with navies at all and just bolster planetary defenses and hope for the best. If let's say we had light speed travel. It would still take us around 4 years just to send a navy from Earth to Proxima, our nearest solar system. What the hell is the point of that? It takes so long that if at any point during the 4 years Proxima learned what we were doing, they could just prepare and kill everyone. The military superiority would have to be completely absolute in the first place.
Or maybe it's the complete opposite. Maybe we have a way to fold spacetime and appear anywhere. Then we'd never build defenses at all as anyone can just teleport anywhere. What's the point? We could just warp giant nukes onto a planet surface and blow it to smithereens.
What about planetary invasions? The scale in which such an action would dictate would absolutely boggle the mind. Using the relatively similar societies of Stellaris, imagine one human race trying to invade another human race's home planet. How? Right now we have so much trouble even thinking of invading say... Russia. How many billions of soldiers would we have to muster, feed, coordinate, and transport in order to invade anything? The scale of such an action is completely incomprehensible to our current day minds. And that's just the invasion. How do you keep the peace? Do you just kill everyone? Even then that's an action that would take a long, long, long, long time.
I can go on and on and on. Governments and societies for example would be so completely obscenely complicated no human could understand them. What about currency? Trade? Terraforming? Colonization? The scale of everything would be so large no game could ever represent it.
And everything. EVERYTHING. Boils down to what manner of faster-than-light-speed travel is actually possible. Such a thing doesn't exist right now. We have no possible clue what it could be or if we are capable of achieving such a feat in our species's entire lifetime. It could be really fast engines, it could be warp, it could be hyperlanes, it could be anything. Or the reality could be we are stuck at relativistic speeds forever and we'll never go anywhere. Hell, my money is on us discovering Silver Space Faeries in which we trade peanut butter for power to move the space sailboats.
--------------
What I'm trying to say is... we each have to decide where to draw the line. Maybe you have trouble accepting hyperlanes and that's fair. But trying to say it's "space is empty and you can go anywhere" is not an argument because the entire concept of interstellar travel is complete fantasy. We can't just "go anywhere in space" just as we can't just "walk to the moon". Hyperlanes have just as much right to be viable in the Stellaris universe as it does in ours and until we have any semblance of viable interstellar travel, this will be the case.
It's a game, and concessions have to be made in order for it to be entertaining. As we can see, most people here support the change. I do too.
I would also like to point out that Wormholes and Warp Travel are still in the game and you can very easily make it so everyone has access to it if you want.
Post by: Culise on November 27, 2018, 08:18:59 pm
I would also like to point out that Wormholes and Warp Travel are still in the game and you can very easily make it so everyone has access to it if you want.While I don't mind the FTL change, I'm a little curious how you would do this. With the governing code for the old FTL systems either completely inaccessible or outright gone, it's not easy to reactivate the original FTL travel systems. You can emulate warp travel by cranking up the hyperlane connections as above, but that has its own limitations in that tech won't increase how far you can "warp" and you still need to path through each system with the resulting dependency on sublight speed that entails. You could modify jump drives, but I'm not sure how well the AI handles modding jump drives to make them have zero cooldown/penalty and it makes complex pathing painful since you need to click the little jump button every time you go from system to system. I have no idea how you'd emulate the old wormhole travel system; gateways don't connect disconnected systems, and the wormholes now in game are basically longer hyperlanes.
EDIT:
I mean, if nothing else, it would have made things loads easier for the New Horizons team to be able to reproduce Star Trek warp drives completely faithfully.
Post by: umiman on November 27, 2018, 08:46:55 pm
Nah you can't do the exact old ways. I was referring to warp and wormholes as they are now. Just put them everywhere and give everyone jump tech. Or give every ship that scout tech that lets them basically teleport anywhere. No idea if the AI can use it. The AI does use jump drives right now though. You'd have to do it and see what happens.I would also like to point out that Wormholes and Warp Travel are still in the game and you can very easily make it so everyone has access to it if you want.While I don't mind the FTL change, I'm a little curious how you would do this. With the governing code for the old FTL systems either completely inaccessible or outright gone, it's not easy to reactivate the original FTL travel systems. You can emulate warp travel by cranking up the hyperlane connections as above, but that has its own limitations in that tech won't increase how far you can "warp" and you still need to path through each system with the resulting dependency on sublight speed that entails. You could modify jump drives, but I'm not sure how well the AI handles modding jump drives to make them have zero cooldown/penalty and it makes complex pathing painful since you need to click the little jump button every time you go from system to system. I have no idea how you'd emulate the old wormhole travel system; gateways don't connect disconnected systems, and the wormholes now in game are basically longer hyperlanes.
EDIT:
I mean, if nothing else, it would have made things loads easier for the New Horizons team to be able to reproduce Star Trek warp drives completely faithfully.
I'd imagine you could also mod it so you can "create" wormholes so to speak. Then you end up with the old method. Maybe combine it by slowing down hyperlane movement by a ridiculous amount.
Post by: Telgin on November 27, 2018, 10:50:23 pm
I can only imagine how the AI might behave in a mod where everyone starts with or can easily unlock jumpdrives early on in an effort to replicate early Stellaris FTL.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on November 27, 2018, 11:00:45 pm
Speaking of the AI and jumpdrives, does the AI routinely crap its pants when trying to figure out how to use them? In two games I've been in so far, spiritualist awakened empires went to war with me and had bizarre moments where they'd spend months stuck in a system where they constantly alternated between charging jump drives and drifting slowly toward a hyperlane exit. Once they finally got to the next system, they'd go back to acting like normal.Yeah that happens all the time.
I can only imagine how the AI might behave in a mod where everyone starts with or can easily unlock jumpdrives early on in an effort to replicate early Stellaris FTL.
Post by: umiman on November 27, 2018, 11:12:37 pm
Speaking of the AI and jumpdrives, does the AI routinely crap its pants when trying to figure out how to use them? In two games I've been in so far, spiritualist awakened empires went to war with me and had bizarre moments where they'd spend months stuck in a system where they constantly alternated between charging jump drives and drifting slowly toward a hyperlane exit. Once they finally got to the next system, they'd go back to acting like normal.If anything, I would imagine they would actually improve if the jump times were removed and no cooldown period.
I can only imagine how the AI might behave in a mod where everyone starts with or can easily unlock jumpdrives early on in an effort to replicate early Stellaris FTL.
But this is Stellaris AI. So it could very likely decide it doesn't want to do anything.
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 28, 2018, 07:09:10 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 28, 2018, 02:25:11 pm
Speaking of the AI and jumpdrives, does the AI routinely crap its pants when trying to figure out how to use them? In two games I've been in so far, spiritualist awakened empires went to war with me and had bizarre moments where they'd spend months stuck in a system where they constantly alternated between charging jump drives and drifting slowly toward a hyperlane exit. Once they finally got to the next system, they'd go back to acting like normal.Using the hyplerane generator/deleter mod, I created star empires that existed wholly disconnected from the outside world. Not only did the AI not figure out how to hyperjump into the star systems, but the end game crises refused to move to a single star system unless they had a hyperlane connection to the player capital
I can only imagine how the AI might behave in a mod where everyone starts with or can easily unlock jumpdrives early on in an effort to replicate early Stellaris FTL.
Post by: Telgin on November 28, 2018, 02:43:43 pm
The fact it breaks the crises isn't too surprising either. I remember that there was a lot of speculation that a path finding bug like that was at the heart of the "crisis doesn't expand" bug in early versions of 2.1.x. I can't remember if a Paradox employee confirmed that or not.
Post by: Egan_BW on November 28, 2018, 02:47:52 pm
...Idea for an end game crisis: partially hyperspace beings who find hyperlanes offensive and go around trying to smash every hyperlane in the galaxy.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 28, 2018, 02:48:52 pm
Post by: Telgin on November 28, 2018, 02:51:12 pm
I imagine there would be too many issues working such a mechanic into the game though. AI being a big one.
Post by: Egan_BW on November 28, 2018, 02:54:19 pm
Post by: Telgin on November 29, 2018, 10:38:19 am
Just one week away now, and I am truly excited. Some of the bug fixes are nice to see too, such as not getting spammed with multiple first contact messages.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 29, 2018, 10:59:26 am
Quote
* Colony ships can now be built populated with any species which you have a migration treaty withYes! Finally, a way to actually reliably use migration treaties to colonize planets not hospitable to your race.
Post by: Rolan7 on November 29, 2018, 11:06:07 am
So much cool stuff!! I'm not sure what to play first, probably an authoritarian empire in case slavery isn't such a tedious headache. With genetweaking perks. But then I really want to try Rogue Servitors again without having hundreds of unwanted food production. And a friendly hive run to make hive worlds, and...
Quote
* No longer possible to pick Imperial Prerogative as first ascension perk???
I never take that perk (+5 core systems), I was barely able to stand the micromanagement already. But why would anyone take it first? What an odd nerf... I guess core systems will be less of a headache now though.
Post by: Telgin on November 29, 2018, 11:31:55 am
I don't think I ever picked it first (that's always Technological Ascendancy), but I did usually pick it eventually because I was one of those players who hated handing systems over to the brain dead sector AI, and who also has an abnormally high tolerance for micromanagement.
Also, just realized that civilian ships are built at starbases instead of planets now. Finally. That was a kind of weird holdover from the 1.9 -> 2.0 transition, wasn't it? I remember being very confused about that for a while.
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 29, 2018, 01:28:06 pm
Also: "Unity Ambitions are now a free feature, and no longer restricted to owners of Apocalypse" is kinda nice
Post by: Telgin on November 29, 2018, 01:38:53 pm
A few people on Paradox's forums complained about it being nonsensical space terrain changes, but I kind of like it. It helps eliminate some of the major abuses of sectors in the current version, and gives a reason to hire multiple governors.
One thing I'm curious about, which I don't think was ever mentioned, is if there will be a new CB to claim systems in a sector that don't belong to you. I doubt I'd ever use it since I play nice aliens who never declare war, but it would make a lot of sense and help give options to players who just barely failed to stop another empire from expanding into a cluster and taking a border system that would serve as a good choke point since you could declare war to take that system without needing a CB to go to full war with that empire.
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 29, 2018, 01:47:03 pm
Some other goodies from the patch notes which I liked:
Quote
* Leader Capacity has been removed from the game and replaced with energy credits upkeep for each leader
* Federation members now automatically have a commercial agreement with each other, but have to pay 15% of their energy credit income in federation taxes
* Reworked relative empire power to be based on fleet power, economic power and tech power (in order of descending importance). Economic power is calculated as the amount of resources produced by the empire each month, multiplied by the base value of said resources, while tech power is calculated by the total cost of researched techs
* Culture shock is now a planet modifier rather than a pop modifier
* Assimilation now faster, and planetary culture shock will be removed if there is only hive/cyborg/machine pops on the planet, because free will is a painful illusion
* Spiritualist faction will no longer be unhappy about Tomb Worlds if you get Wormed
* Having Psionic pops in your empire allows for the possibility of rolling the Psionic theory tech if not otherwise possible
* Colonization screens only show the list of species and will generate a ship from the closest shipyard
Post by: Criptfeind on November 29, 2018, 03:39:11 pm
We've truly come full circle if we're getting de jure claims in Stellaris. I love it.
I don't think that's the case. My understanding is that this sector rework basically amounts to the idea that without a lot of micromanagement on planets now since the tile system is removed, sectors are less necessary for a large empire, so they are being mostly removed. Now they are mostly a little bit of fluff, areas of your empire getting names, and a scaling penalty for size since each leader costs energy upkeep (and a leader can now only govern a very limited area) and keeping the ability to hand off management of your empire to the AI if you've got too much to manage (although with the hopes that you won't need to anymore) It's a system that could have interesting ties to warfare (like de jure claims), diplomacy, and internal stuff, but I don't think it actually HAS any of these ties, at least not yet.
Post by: LoSboccacc on November 29, 2018, 04:35:27 pm
this sound great, having that arbitrary limits was extra annoying to me.
Post by: Telgin on November 29, 2018, 04:47:40 pm
Okay, yeah, I guess it's not inconceivable that people were hitting the cap. Having no cap and now upkeep makes a lot more sense. Previously you just paid for them once and never paid again, which was weird anyway. The scaling cost is a little strange, and probably intended to reflect growing bureaucratic complexity with a growing empire, but it does serve as a way to discourage mass firing and hiring to get ideal traits.
Post by: Criptfeind on November 29, 2018, 05:47:58 pm
Funnily enough, I never actually hit the leader cap so I'm not sure what I was supposed to be doing, but it was weird to have a cap anyway. I guess if I was one of those rare people who kept extra scientists around to rotate out for field related research speed buffs then I might have hit the cap. Or if I had a dozen sectors, maybe to abuse the separate mineral and energy stockpiles, and wanted to have governors to maximize output. Or if I had such a gigantic naval capacity that I needed a dozen admirals.
Or taking a few points in the Discovery Tradition tree.
Post by: Rolan7 on November 29, 2018, 05:53:43 pm
Post by: Telgin on November 29, 2018, 07:38:58 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on November 29, 2018, 10:00:17 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on November 29, 2018, 10:07:04 pm
Assisting research would be another valid use, yeah. Despite my usually focusing hard on science, I didn't ever use research assistance very much because it didn't seem to help all that much. Maybe I was misread or doing the math wrong, but even assisting on a research focused habitat or ring world segment didn't seem to give more than a few extra points of research per month per scientist. Better than nothing, I suppose.
Oh, right, I forgot that research assist no longer gives unity, so it's not nearly as good as it used to be. But, even so, it's like +15% or something right? That's still pretty good on a research focused world. Should give a couple of dozen points.
I for one just wish that leaders were more like underlings in CK2. Give them some initiative!
It'd be interesting if this eventually became a thing. I wouldn't expect it in 2019, but a big "internal society" update at some point adding more interesting personality to your empire and how you interact with your subjects would be cool, if they can think of enough things to implement.
Post by: Madman198237 on November 29, 2018, 10:19:10 pm
I for one just wish that leaders were more like underlings in CK2. Give them some initiative!
But that would make for good gameplay, PTTG. That's just not acceptable in our perfectly mediocre game.
Post by: E. Albright on November 30, 2018, 01:19:44 am
Post by: Cruxador on November 30, 2018, 10:02:00 am
Yeah, Wiz has said that he doesn't want to make leaders matter too much because then it would be Crusader Kings in Space, and apparently he thinks that wouldn't be better than it just being Stellaris.I for one just wish that leaders were more like underlings in CK2. Give them some initiative!
But that would make for good gameplay, PTTG. That's just not acceptable in our perfectly mediocre game.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on November 30, 2018, 10:37:53 am
Post by: Mephansteras on November 30, 2018, 10:42:03 am
Post by: Majestic7 on November 30, 2018, 10:42:52 am
Post by: Telgin on November 30, 2018, 11:18:41 am
Life-seeded will also give direct access to what appears to be the 3 most important advanced resources from the beginning, so it may actually not be that bad of a start. Depends on how rare motes, crystals and gases are.
Post by: Cruxador on November 30, 2018, 02:04:10 pm
The idea of crusader kings is that you the player are divorced from the empire and actually only represent the interests of one family whose wellbeing and success is paramount. Ckii but you follow the empire, and you don't worry about marriages, assassination, getting claims by anything more than spending points, the spread of religion, or the machinations of your children isn't really crusader kings; it's just taking something crusader kings did amazingly well.I mean, you're kinda preaching to the choir here.
Post by: Teneb on November 30, 2018, 02:08:35 pm
Yeah, I don't think Wiz knows what Crusader Kings is actually about. Maybe he only ever plays Kings and tries to blob the whole world every single time?Every single paradox grand strategy is about blobbing. Except ck. (We don't talk about Victoria anymore)
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 30, 2018, 02:14:33 pm
Every single paradox grand strategy is about blobbing. Except ck. (We don't talk about Victoria anymore)How to make stellaris good:
It's victoria kings in space
Post by: Broseph Stalin on November 30, 2018, 02:38:44 pm
I mean, you're kinda preaching to the choir here.Not preaching so much as whining that the justification for leaving an anemic system mostly as is is that making it better would make it more like something good.
Post by: Rolan7 on November 30, 2018, 02:46:32 pm
I'm also excited to buy and liberate slaves, of course. I'll probably be playing Blorg, which was my first run, just to see how much has changed (and also because it's a powerful and fun combo). Just need to gene-mod a smiley face on my people ASAP...
Post by: BurnedToast on November 30, 2018, 03:23:16 pm
I don't know how I feel about that. It sort of feels shady to be taking value away from people who payed for the DLC, but it also kind of feels shady to lock stuff like that behind DLC since it makes it harder to balance and smells faintly of pay2win.
Also:
Quote
* End game victory conditions reworked into a score system, tallying up your total empire accomplishment based on size, population, military, tech, federations, and many other measures
So instead of "conquer everything to win" now we have a high score based victory system? I guess that's.... sort of an improvement? I'll have to see the specifics of how it works.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 30, 2018, 03:27:54 pm
Post by: Telgin on November 30, 2018, 03:41:28 pm
And yeah, a few people were leery about unlocking unity ambitions for everyone, but I think Paradox is making the right call here. If they keep all of these features locked behind DLC then they have a much harder time building on top of them with later DLC because you can't know if the player will have the needed DLC or not. Still, I'd like to see them lower the price on the older DLC or release bundle packs that include it, partly to account for the features being migrated to vanilla over time and just to reduce the perceived barrier to entry for new players.
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 30, 2018, 03:56:54 pm
Assisting research would be another valid use, yeah. Despite my usually focusing hard on science, I didn't ever use research assistance very much because it didn't seem to help all that much. Maybe I was misread or doing the math wrong, but even assisting on a research focused habitat or ring world segment didn't seem to give more than a few extra points of research per month per scientist. Better than nothing, I suppose.iirc it's a flat 5% boost to all science output for the planet per level of the scientist. The bonus goes up to 10% when you get the 'improved' version. That means a level 10 scientist can potentially double the output of a world I guess, though I haven't tested that
Post by: Telgin on November 30, 2018, 04:02:47 pm
Post by: umiman on November 30, 2018, 05:46:04 pm
Victoria Queens surely.Every single paradox grand strategy is about blobbing. Except ck. (We don't talk about Victoria anymore)How to make stellaris good:
It's victoria kings in space
Post by: Teneb on November 30, 2018, 05:49:23 pm
Don't question royalty!Victoria Queens surely.Every single paradox grand strategy is about blobbing. Except ck. (We don't talk about Victoria anymore)How to make stellaris good:
It's victoria kings in space
Post by: Criptfeind on November 30, 2018, 05:54:46 pm
How to make stellaris good:
It's victoria kings in space
This is all I've really ever wanted from Stellaris. A man can dream.
So instead of "conquer everything to win" now we have a high score based victory system? I guess that's.... sort of an improvement? I'll have to see the specifics of how it works.
Imo it's still dumb, but victory is going to be exactly as important to me in the new game as it was in the old one. 0%
all paradox games work this way. dlc always add a bunch of powerful mechanics that make the game easier, if only because they give you more options to do stuff you were already trying to do.
I think if there's one place that I can really give the Stellaris devs credit in, it's this, Stellaris seems way better with this then other paradox games. The DLCs have pretty low value for money most of the time because of it, but most of the "just more and better" things from dlcs are pretty much irrelevant and mostly you just get cool side stuff to do from them. (Like play robots or build megastructures.)
Post by: Trolldefender99 on December 03, 2018, 04:17:48 pm
Watching Quill18 play though, the new changes in megacorp look really amazing. No longer do you have the annoying building/population mechanic (never liked that part felt very very limiting) and a lot more things are more automated. I think that is coming in megacorp and not from a previous expansion. Still on his part 1 video, but it looks like a big improvement from when I last played Stellaris.
And it looks like you can recreate the East India Company...but in space.
Post by: Teneb on December 03, 2018, 05:21:07 pm
EDIT: Obviously a few seconds after I post this, the technology appears. Obviously.
Post by: Telgin on December 03, 2018, 05:42:26 pm
Seriously though, were you into repeatables yet? You're pretty much guaranteed to see other research options by then if you haven't seen them yet. I think even rare techs are several times more common than repeatables in the shuffle.
I haven't played Stellaris since...well since a year+ ago. Its been a while.
Watching Quill18 play though, the new changes in megacorp look really amazing. No longer do you have the annoying building/population mechanic (never liked that part felt very very limiting) and a lot more things are more automated. I think that is coming in megacorp and not from a previous expansion. Still on his part 1 video, but it looks like a big improvement from when I last played Stellaris.
And it looks like you can recreate the East India Company...but in space.
Yeah, all of that's from the next patch / expansion. I'm very excited and am sorely tempted to take a couple of sick days come Thursday...
Post by: Teneb on December 03, 2018, 05:48:23 pm
Rare tech is rare. :)Not a single repeatable tech yet. Fallen empires have yet to wake up and the endgame crisis is still unknown. Great Khan came and went, though, and I opened the L-Cluster (got lucky and ended up with Grey).
Seriously though, were you into repeatables yet? You're pretty much guaranteed to see other research options by then if you haven't seen them yet. I think even rare techs are several times more common than repeatables in the shuffle.
EDIT: Nevermind what I said about repeatables, I'm seeing a couple now. Just didn't pay attention.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 03, 2018, 06:10:56 pm
If they don't want to be slaves, why are they made of labor and profit?
~Llamacorp
Post by: Cruxador on December 03, 2018, 09:18:58 pm
I am really looking forward to being an utterly reprehensible, cartoonishly evil, slave-trading megacorporation in the upcoming DLC.I'm still annoyed that criminal and non-criminal corporations are inherently delineated. I want my opium wars in space.
If they don't want to be slaves, why are they made of labor and profit?
~Llamacorp
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 03, 2018, 09:21:06 pm
I am really looking forward to being an utterly reprehensible, cartoonishly evil, slave-trading megacorporation in the upcoming DLC.I'm still annoyed that criminal and non-criminal corporations are inherently delineated. I want my opium wars in space.
If they don't want to be slaves, why are they made of labor and profit?
~Llamacorp
I was unaware of that, is it like, an opposing ethos like material/spiritual?
Also, Llamacorp would like to remind you that criminals are those who break the law, and those in power write the laws.
Post by: Criptfeind on December 03, 2018, 09:32:58 pm
I was unaware of that, is it like, an opposing ethos like material/spiritual?
Also, Llamacorp would like to remind you that criminals are those who break the law, and those in power write the laws.
Criminal megacorp is a civic. If you don't have it you are an explicitly above board megacorp who can only make their way into other empires planets with legal agreements and your buildings are always a pure benefit to the people who's planet you build them on. (Well, except arguably if you're a megachurch, in which case the spiritual attraction you cause might be considered a negative) If you do have the civic you're a totally criminal megacorp who can't even try to make peaceful legal trading relationships with others and all the buildings you make cause crime for the planets you build them on. There's strictly no crossover between the ideas afaik.
Post by: Kanil on December 03, 2018, 09:52:10 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on December 03, 2018, 09:58:38 pm
Post by: Kanil on December 03, 2018, 10:04:28 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on December 04, 2018, 02:05:25 am
Post by: Rolan7 on December 04, 2018, 02:25:30 am
I mean, you're no devouring swarm, are you? I think your neighbors would have... words, if that were the case.
We only want a little Earth and Water.
Post by: LoSboccacc on December 04, 2018, 02:34:36 am
What delineates "your" planets from "our" planets? Merely words and an easily broken social contract. The Hive is under no obligation to honor your claim to resources that The Hive could utilize more efficiently.
don't the game activly prevent you to move across borders? that coloured line is very very real, sadly.
Post by: dennislp3 on December 04, 2018, 03:28:11 am
What delineates "your" planets from "our" planets? Merely words and an easily broken social contract. The Hive is under no obligation to honor your claim to resources that The Hive could utilize more efficiently.
don't the game activly prevent you to move across borders? that coloured line is very very real, sadly.
Only if they block you from moving through (one of the first negative actions most empires take if you have less than 0 relationship)
so you could probably RP some sort of lore reason. Otherwise the lines don't matter.
Post by: Madman198237 on December 04, 2018, 09:12:00 am
We only want a little Earth and Water.
Maybe you do but THIS. IS. SPARTA.
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 04, 2018, 10:00:49 am
What delineates "your" planets from "our" planets? Merely words and an easily broken social contract. The Hive is under no obligation to honor your claim to resources that The Hive could utilize more efficiently.STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM
MULTIPLE THIRD PARTY CLAIMANTS HAVE FLAGGED YOU FOR VIOLATING THE N.A.P.tm. DWAMAK MERCENARIES WILL BE EN ROUTE TO REPOSSESS YOUR STATE AS COMPENSATION TO THE AGGRIEVED MULTIPLE THIRD PARTY CLAIMANTS. DUE TO ONGOING PROCESSING OF YOUR CASE, WE WILL NOT BE ACCEPTING APPEALS AS OF THIS MOMENT. WE THANK YOU FOR YOUR UNDERSTANDING.
Post by: Telgin on December 04, 2018, 12:39:09 pm
It's all anecdotal, but reports of the AI sitting on massive stacks of resources 300 years into the game without building up their fleets is one example. Apparently there are AI loops too that cause them to shuffle governors around, broken behavior with the automatically generated sectors and big performance stalls.
The devs say some of this has already been fixed, but I'm still expecting the initial release to be pretty broken with the AI at least. If nothing else, that'll give me a chance to learn the new mechanics without the AI interfering. Not that it did all that much before, but still.
Post by: Empty on December 04, 2018, 01:39:05 pm
I still have a game I want to finish on this version.
Post by: Teneb on December 04, 2018, 01:46:54 pm
Is it possible to not update?You can disable Steam's auto-updates. I imagine there will be a rollback beta too.
I still have a game I want to finish on this version.
Post by: Rolan7 on December 04, 2018, 01:52:56 pm
Edit: Though apparently that doesn't always work - under some circumstances, the game (Stellaris, in the thread I read) may refuse to launch until going online and updating. But it worked for a while, for that poster.
Post by: Criptfeind on December 04, 2018, 02:08:26 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 04, 2018, 02:15:37 pm
Post by: Ludorum Rex on December 04, 2018, 02:20:16 pm
Post by: Persus13 on December 04, 2018, 02:36:00 pm
You can use the steam console to revert to earlier versions. I think they blocked the ability to revert to pre-GDPR builds, but I don't think the post-GDPR ones are blocked.They didn't block the ability, you just have to have a Paradox forum account to do so, iirc.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 04, 2018, 06:03:14 pm
Basically you have to log in and consent to certain levels of monitoring, per the GDPR, in order to get the old versions. Those old versions didn't have that consent built into the EULA or communicated in any way so they lock it behind a new consent form. At least that is my understandingYou can use the steam console to revert to earlier versions. I think they blocked the ability to revert to pre-GDPR builds, but I don't think the post-GDPR ones are blocked.They didn't block the ability, you just have to have a Paradox forum account to do so, iirc.
Post by: Cruxador on December 04, 2018, 06:34:35 pm
I'm fine with that. It means I only have to relentlessly exterminate criminal megacorps, rather than literally every last one of them.Personally, I prefer nuance.
Post by: Orb on December 04, 2018, 06:48:58 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on December 04, 2018, 09:56:17 pm
What delineates "your" planets from "our" planets? Merely words and an easily broken social contract. The Hive is under no obligation to honor your claim to resources that The Hive could utilize more efficiently.STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM
MULTIPLE THIRD PARTY CLAIMANTS HAVE FLAGGED YOU FOR VIOLATING THE N.A.P.tm. DWAMAK MERCENARIES WILL BE EN ROUTE TO REPOSSESS YOUR STATE AS COMPENSATION TO THE AGGRIEVED MULTIPLE THIRD PARTY CLAIMANTS. DUE TO ONGOING PROCESSING OF YOUR CASE, WE WILL NOT BE ACCEPTING APPEALS AS OF THIS MOMENT. WE THANK YOU FOR YOUR UNDERSTANDING.
The Hive understands and laughs condescendingly. We would like you to know that whether you are accepting appeals at this time has no bearing upon your ability to avoid collision with said appeals~
Post by: Cruxador on December 04, 2018, 09:59:10 pm
Stellaris is not a nuanced game ::)Thanks, Wiz.
Post by: MorleyDev on December 06, 2018, 09:01:31 am
I guess the most important question now is figuring out what to do for a first run with the new systems.
I'm thinking either "Lucky Star Casino", Tomb World humanity lead by a "Courier Six" after the House ending of New Vegas, or "Starspawn of Cthulhu", as a Subversive Cult.
Post by: Telgin on December 06, 2018, 09:49:43 am
I'm no longer sure how I'm going to play at first. I love that they're adding mega corporations to the game, but I don't have much interest in playing one. I wanted to do a Life-Seeded and Inward Perfection run, but after looking at how good the new Technocracy civic looks, I really want to use it. Trouble is, I want to keep Life-Seeded and Inward Perfection and don't want to just add Technocracy later with my third civic slot since it looks like that might actually cause significant economic changes by removing some amenities production from your leaders.
Decisions, decisions.
I was also debating not buying MegaCorp until after a patch or two, since it's probably going to be hilariously buggy, but I really want the new mega structures it adds...
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 06, 2018, 10:38:20 am
The Hive understands and laughs condescendingly. We would like you to know that whether you are accepting appeals at this time has no bearing upon your ability to avoid collision with said appeals~UPON REVIEW OF THE SIZE OF YOUR APPEAL, WE AT MEGACORP HAVE FOUND YOUR OCCUPATION OF THE BOLACK STAR SYSTEM TO FALL WITHIN OUR FAIR USE CLAUSE. THANK YOU FOR SHOPPING WITH MEGACORP
Post by: Broseph Stalin on December 06, 2018, 11:32:22 am
Post by: Rolan7 on December 06, 2018, 11:35:49 am
so excite
I might pick up the DLC today or in a couple days, depending on how much time I get with the new mechanics. And how badly I want a ecumeno...polis? A Coruscant
Post by: Broseph Stalin on December 06, 2018, 11:39:58 am
Post by: Teneb on December 06, 2018, 12:10:39 pm
Onwards, to exploit the stars and experience bugs.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on December 06, 2018, 01:12:14 pm
1) Damn does this feel wonderful to play.
2) Holy hell is the local market convenient in the game start. I can run a massive deficit in one area (energy) and so long as the rest keep up, I can keep afloat through selling things off for a short bit of time.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on December 06, 2018, 01:55:33 pm
I think my next project is going to be focus purely on energy, with my branch offices giving me a hefty boost, and use the proceeds to play the market.
Post by: Telgin on December 06, 2018, 02:50:48 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on December 06, 2018, 03:08:29 pm
Small related complaint: The resource deltas at the top of the screen only get updated on the monthly tick. So if I futz around with job allocation on a planet, I don't get to see my incomes change in real-time. It's not a big deal, but it was a nice feature when trying to figure things out in previous versions. I get why it's tricky to implement, but it shouldn't necessarily be a performance issue. I hope they bring it back someday.
Edit: Oh, this also applies to stuff like changing food policy. It also gave me a slight concern, at first, since the research screen said I was making no progress in any field (until I reached month 2).
Honestly I shouldn't complain, as I'm for some reason playing this major version change in Ironman, so I can't quicksave to check things. Which is objectively a bad move but YOLO BLORG RUN
Edit2: Oh! At least for moving workers around, the planet's listings do show the sum production for each worker type. So if I assign a farmer, it does immediately go from 16 to 24 for example. That's probably sufficient feedback.
Edit3: Huh, Very Strong applies 5% to all "worker" jobs, not just minerals. That's kinda interesting. No, wait- not Clerks. Makes sense. But definitely food and energy production.
Post by: Telgin on December 06, 2018, 03:16:38 pm
Looks like a lot of people are having interesting bugs, like infinite streams of empty popup notifications, stuttering and being unable to launch the game or generate empires. I won't have a chance to play for some hours yet, but I hope I avoid the worst of it.
How long after previous DLCs was it before a hotfix was released? A week? More?
Edit: Looks like the first hotfix for Apocalypse came 5 days later, so maybe it won't be so long before fixes come out.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on December 06, 2018, 05:47:26 pm
If I build a branch office and the crimeiest crime building I can build I inflict +75 crime. A single precinct building produces 2 enforcer pops which do -75 crime. They can make a new building every 5 pops I can only make one every 25 pops Which means they'll have had five opportunities for a coupe de gras by the time I can launch my counterstrike. If there was a way of protecting my assets with unity, influence, or additional investments it might make sense bu right now I'm just throwing away resources and hoping I break even before they crush me.
Post by: Sartain on December 06, 2018, 05:51:22 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on December 06, 2018, 06:02:46 pm
Oh, and like, the market seems brokenly cheap to buy consumer goods on. Like, 2.5 energy per good when making them takes a precious building slot, a lot of minerals, energy food and consumer goods to upkeep the job and pop... It seem way cheaper to just build generator districts and buy the goods.
Post by: umiman on December 06, 2018, 06:09:53 pm
I found my first two neighbours and neither of them are advance start but while I only managed to get an additional 6 star systems, they're at around 15 additional star systems each.
I'm playing on the second highest difficulty so I know they're cheating... but in the past they never expanded this fast before.
Also did they slow down research speed? Seems much slower. I'm not complaining but I normally play 2x research length because I found vanilla way too slow. Now I feel like I'm on 6x or something.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on December 06, 2018, 07:36:07 pm
How are other people enjoying the slave market? I haven't seen any pops for sale yet. I did snag two planets from a stubborn empire in a war of subjugation. I stole 31 pops and gave back the mostly empty systems. They're selling very quickly for 1k each and I'm taking those credits to immediately purchase alloys I need to expand the fleet.
Post by: Culise on December 06, 2018, 09:08:55 pm
I hereby move that we exclusively refer to a ecumenopoli as Coruscants.Nah, Coruscant is a derived unit. The appropriate SI base unit is the Trantor.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on December 06, 2018, 09:17:49 pm
They of course are designed on relying on branch offices in other empires, but with how... impossible, diplomacy is in Stellaris it feels so arbitrary. You have to be lucky to get good empires who can conceivably ever agree to a commercial pact. In my current game I've only found one empire that with their own Xenophile and my Xenophile bonus I just barely managed to get a commercial pact. Out of something like five empires total. Distance penalties are harsh, and I can't exactly expand to close that gap because I'm already at my size limit.
Post by: PTTG?? on December 06, 2018, 09:18:00 pm
-Me, making a new game playing as an energy-production-focused megacorp, Datalinks (https://paeantosmac.wordpress.com/2016/03/14/base-facility-quantum-converter/)
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 06, 2018, 09:26:54 pm
"In former times the energy monopoly was called "The Power Company"; we intend to give this name an entirely new meaning."King Executive Autocrat
-Me, making a new game playing as an energy-production-focused megacorp, Datalinks (https://paeantosmac.wordpress.com/2016/03/14/base-facility-quantum-converter/)
KEAs. The ultimate thieves
Post by: Egan_BW on December 06, 2018, 09:32:24 pm
Would be an interesting start to begin as a rising megacorp who just managed to buy their first planet from an established empire, possibly with a mix of species already on the planet. Or even playing as one of several rival companies from the same planet, racing to form new colonies before your competitors and take over your home planet.
...But then, I guess those could all be alternative starts for other empire types, not just corps. Could play as one of two superpowers on your home planet, or as the "official" planetary government sharing the world with a megacorp looking to outcompete you.
Oh well. Each stellaris expansion just makes me think of fun new directions they could take things. Maybe some day...
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 06, 2018, 09:37:32 pm
It does seem odd to me that corporations start out the same way as "normal" empires, with one species on one planet taking their first steps into the stars.CK2 Merchant Republic mechanics, with multiple companies operating off of the same capital planet? Yes please
Would be an interesting start to begin as a rising megacorp who just managed to buy their first planet from an established empire, possibly with a mix of species already on the planet. Or even playing as one of several rival companies from the same planet, racing to form new colonies before your competitors and take over your home planet.
...But then, I guess those could all be alternative starts for other empire types, not just corps. Could play as one of two superpowers on your home planet, or as the "official" planetary government sharing the world with a megacorp looking to outcompete you.
Oh well. Each stellaris expansion just makes me think of fun new directions they could take things. Maybe some day...
Post by: BurnedToast on December 07, 2018, 01:25:55 am
Oh, and like, the market seems brokenly cheap to buy consumer goods on. Like, 2.5 energy per good when making them takes a precious building slot, a lot of minerals, energy food and consumer goods to upkeep the job and pop... It seem way cheaper to just build generator districts and buy the goods.
The more you buy/sell the more the price adjusts. It seems to settle back to the original value over time, but relying on the market 100% for your consumer goods all game is probably not sustainable (or maybe it is?).
That said, I agree the market feels really overpowered. I went with a hive mind and I don't have to deal with consumer goods (I guess?) but I've crunched the numbers and it seems way more worth it to buy alloys than it is to produce them. Building slots just seem too valuable and the alloy furnace does not seem efficient enough - when you factor in the sell price of the metal ore, the energy required to operate the furnace, and the opportunity cost of the pops to run it, it's not actually producing much excess alloy compared to just selling everything and buying it.
It gets even worse because I've gotten a bunch of bonus techs for energy and minerals, but no bonus alloy techs. So relatively speaking it becomes more and more worth it to make energy and buy alloy.
And that was before the galactic market formed. It just formed and I managed to become the market leader which gives me a 10% discount, and now it's slanted even more in favor of just buying alloy.
Edit: also victory is 100% high score time based, which is actually worse than the old victory condition imo. Yeah I know ultimately it's just a pointless "you win" screen, but at a certain point you've already won and there's no point in playing anymore and it's nice for the game to acknowledge that. On the other hand, I guess that's one way to stop players from winning too early... make it impossible ::)
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 07, 2018, 09:04:07 am
Post by: Telgin on December 07, 2018, 11:47:58 am
Anyway, the market really is overpowered from what I've seen, and it's taking some getting used to for me to realize that I usually have enough resources like food to dump into it that I can get anything I want at any time. Even without it, raw resources like minerals, energy and food don't feel like they're in nearly as much shortage early game now, which is interesting.
I really like the economic changes so far, but I haven't gotten a great grasp of how it works yet. I feel like so far I've been struggling to build new buildings to keep amenities high enough and to keep consumer goods in positive flow, although I realize now it really probably is best to just buy them on the market. Alloys too, probably.
The pop changes are also going to take a ton of learning, but I already love it. I accidentally kind of hamstrung myself by colonizing my two guaranteed colonies very early on, which led to population growth almost stopping on my home world in favor of emigration to the new colonies. Oops, now instead of developing that world, I'm having to wait for pops to grow up on the new colonies so I can start building meaningful things on them.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on December 07, 2018, 12:20:17 pm
Post by: Telgin on December 07, 2018, 01:06:35 pm
I haven't gotten to the point of having a galactic market founded yet though, so I don't have a great grasp on it yet.
Anyway, all told I'm surprised that I've actually seen zero bugs so far. I only had time to play 20 game years last night, and did so at normal speed so I could keep on top of things, but it's a good sign.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on December 07, 2018, 02:49:28 pm
Is it just me or is the AI expanding ludicriously fast?
I found my first two neighbours and neither of them are advance start but while I only managed to get an additional 6 star systems, they're at around 15 additional star systems each.
I'm playing on the second highest difficulty so I know they're cheating... but in the past they never expanded this fast before.
Also did they slow down research speed? Seems much slower. I'm not complaining but I normally play 2x research length because I found vanilla way too slow. Now I feel like I'm on 6x or something.
Yeah, they pretty heavily boosted the amount of even base research needed, likely since it's easier to get really high income for it.
Say, I'm working on organizing a multi-player game on Sunday with a few others. Anyone here interested?
Post by: BurnedToast on December 07, 2018, 11:31:59 pm
---------------------
After playing with the new system for a while.... I don't know. It seems a lot better, but on the other hand if you want things done correctly it's even more of a micromanagement nightmare than the old system was.
Previously you could just click through everything all at once and forget about it. Now you have to constantly go back to the planet over and over to build new stuff, and if you want to do it just right you have to calculate in advance how many houses etc you will need. Also the old system was simple enough that if you handed it over to the AI, he would screw it up but not catastrophically. I'm actually afraid to hand control of the new system over to the AI because there's just so many stupid, terrible things it could do and it just seems too complicated for him to handle even halfway decently.
I guess I could give him ONE planet as a test run and see what he does with it...
Edit: the answer seems to be..... nothing. Literally nothing. I don't know if it's bugged for everyone or just hive minds, but I set a sector with two planets in it to AI control (basic resources), gave it 10,000 resources (both minerals and energy) and.... it just didn't do anything at all. I waited a few years and it never built a single building or district.
Post by: E. Albright on December 07, 2018, 11:58:48 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 08, 2018, 02:06:29 pm
Also my unity is through the roof.
I expect some of the above will level out, it seems mostly due to the ridiculous population boom I've experienced. Still early game.
Post by: Teneb on December 08, 2018, 03:38:24 pm
I am enjoying playing an evil spiritualist slaving nation immensely. Playing a duo game, found a suitable primitive civ, resettled every one of them to my homeworld, and have an extremely robust economy coupled with research on par with my materialist/egalitarian science-focused partner.A really bizarre 2.2 change was to move the "invaded primitives" modifier from the pops to the planet itself.
Meaning you can just do like you did and relocate everyone.
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 08, 2018, 04:03:59 pm
Edit: the answer seems to be..... nothing. Literally nothing. I don't know if it's bugged for everyone or just hive minds, but I set a sector with two planets in it to AI control (basic resources), gave it 10,000 resources (both minerals and energy) and.... it just didn't do anything at all. I waited a few years and it never built a single building or district.Mine (not a hive mind) do use them, but tend to wait with building anything until a short while before it's needed. Also, loves to build luxury housing for some reason.
And if anyone knows how to tell it not to build one type of resource districts - do tell me. I've recently switched to robotic bodies, but the governors keep building farms.
Oh, and are the 'resources' you transfer to sectors interchangeable (money=minerals)? They kinda look that way.
Post by: BurnedToast on December 08, 2018, 04:21:19 pm
I have basically infinite of everything else, I'm constantly dumping excess resources to buy crystals/gasses but I'm buying them so much the price never has time to settle, so it's constantly going up which makes this unsustainable in the long run. So I need to manufacture some, but it takes 5 drones to unlock a building slot that only employs 1 drone leaving 4 guys with no job. Every building I make that gives them jobs is one less building slot for making more crystal/gas, which is the only thing I really need.
Edit: the answer seems to be..... nothing. Literally nothing. I don't know if it's bugged for everyone or just hive minds, but I set a sector with two planets in it to AI control (basic resources), gave it 10,000 resources (both minerals and energy) and.... it just didn't do anything at all. I waited a few years and it never built a single building or district.Mine (not a hive mind) do use them, but tend to wait with building anything until a short while before it's needed. Also, loves to build luxury housing for some reason.
And if anyone knows how to tell it not to build one type of resource districts - do tell me. I've recently switched to robotic bodies, but the governors keep building farms.
Oh, and are the 'resources' you transfer to sectors interchangeable (money=minerals)? They kinda look that way.
I figured out the problem. The governors will only autobuild for unemployed pops, unemployed hive pops turn into "scavanger drones" which give +1 metal. The AI sees this and thinks you have 0 unemployment so it won't ever build anything. Meaning you have to micromanage every single planet for the whole game. HOORAY >:(
As for the AI building farms... they did the same exact thing for ascended synths in previous versions so I don't think there's much hope you can stop it. At least you can sell the food now - in previous versions ascended synth lost the ability to trade excess food for some unknown reason.
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 08, 2018, 04:30:11 pm
I don't know how it is for regular empires but as a hive I've been having a problem with unemployment and rare resources. Specifically I consume a lot of rare crystals and gasses for buildings and I have none in my territory at all. I can manufacture them, but the building only has one job in it.It's the same for everyone, and I think it's cool. Makes you really value those resources in space, and the special planetary features that let you build a structure generating 2 (!) jobs.
I have basically infinite of everything else, I'm constantly dumping excess resources to buy crystals/gasses but I'm buying them so much the price never has time to settle, so it's constantly going up which makes this unsustainable in the long run. So I need to manufacture some, but it takes 5 drones to unlock a building slot that only employs 1 drone leaving 4 guys with no job. Every building I make that gives them jobs is one less building slot for making more crystal/gas, which is the only thing I really need.
Quote
At least you can sell the food now - in previous versions ascended synth lost the ability to trade excess food for some unknown reason.Yeah, there's even a special building you get when you ascend now (I don't remember it being there before), letting you convert food to energy on a 20:20 basis. Probably not worth the slot, though
Post by: umiman on December 08, 2018, 07:20:59 pm
Edit: the answer seems to be..... nothing. Literally nothing. I don't know if it's bugged for everyone or just hive minds, but I set a sector with two planets in it to AI control (basic resources), gave it 10,000 resources (both minerals and energy) and.... it just didn't do anything at all. I waited a few years and it never built a single building or district.Sigh... Paradox...
Post by: Kot on December 08, 2018, 10:04:11 pm
Post by: Teneb on December 08, 2018, 10:08:08 pm
I've had AI build things, but it's nowhere close to being actually capable of dealing with anything. They sometimes plop a random new building if there's space, but I don't think I ever saw them build a district. You need to set them to be able to do stuff in first place in sectors menu, and then I think how often they do it depends on governor skill, but I have no proofs.I have no dobut at all that Wiz (also known as the entire Stellaris QA team) simply never looked at the sectors to see if buildings were being built regularly (or at all) or not.
I wonder if they'll have time to release a patch though.
Post by: Telgin on December 09, 2018, 12:16:05 am
Naval capacity seems really, really hard to get now. I have 30 at this year, since starbases are harder to get and it's really hard to convince myself to build strongholds for soldier jobs. The starbases I do have are dedicated to trade, since I really need that trade value.
After playing with it for a while longer, I'm starting to get the hang of it and have somewhat revised my thoughts about the market being OP. It feels kind of necessary, actually, since I seem to be permanently in a deficit of some important resource. For me, it's mostly been consumer goods and food, and I've had to dedicate a lot more buildings to consumer goods production than I ever expected. Pretty sure it's mostly because I'm playing as life-seeded and decided to go ahead with colonizing 0% habitability planets anyway, which doubles pop upkeep. I imagine it would be much less brutal for other empires.
Post by: Rolan7 on December 09, 2018, 10:23:10 pm
By "core" I'm sorta talking about the worlds my home starbase can reach - which thereby generate trade value with ZERO risk or complication. Is anyone not filling their capital starbase entirely with trade posts? I deleted the shipyard to get more range.
And that's just 4 range. I'm about to unlock star holds and get 6 range, which reaches into the important trade areas of nearby sectors. It's an interesting evolution which realigns over time, compared to the "bluh just spam trade posts by default, literally everywhere".
However, I do have a quibble/question - Say I have a border system with trade value (maybe it has a planet), and I build a starbase there for defensive purposes. I'd REALLY rather its trade value be picked up by the 4-trade-post starbase which is much closer to my capital. But instead, the bastion picks up the trade (from only that system) and thus causes a piracy issue.
It's maybe not a big deal, but it's very annoying. Building a starbase shouldn't ruin existing trade routes. Why wouldn't it use the trade route closest to my capital?
Also I keep having to pull fleets back from the border because I have three trade routes funneling (kinda by design) through a narrow area near my capital... Which exceeded the protection of a fully stocked bastion, and has spawned massive pirate fleets three times. I'd make a second bastion, but I'm hoping that a Star Hold will do the trick once I research it soon.
In retrospect, that might be the intented use of the new Patrol feature.
It's definitely *not* intended for patrolling to distant trade posts, because the piracy regenerates much quicker than even corvettes travel. They wipe out the piracy due to their bonus from small size, but it's back long before they return.
I like this update a lot
Post by: Cruxador on December 09, 2018, 10:38:37 pm
In retrospect, that might be the intented use of the new Patrol feature.You should keep in mind that the Paradox offices primarily play, test, and therefore balance for fairly small maps, while most players prefer to go for larger maps. So they may have intended patrols to be effective for that purpose, but your empire is bigger than expected.
It's definitely *not* intended for patrolling to distant trade posts, because the piracy regenerates much quicker than even corvettes travel. They wipe out the piracy due to their bonus from small size, but it's back long before they return.
Post by: Whivy on December 10, 2018, 04:57:13 am
In retrospect, that might be the intented use of the new Patrol feature.
It's definitely *not* intended for patrolling to distant trade posts, because the piracy regenerates much quicker than even corvettes travel. They wipe out the piracy due to their bonus from small size, but it's back long before they return.
My 5 corvettes patrol travel about 20 systems before going back home, and the pirate activity reduce trade value by about 0 - 20% max, so I believe long range patrol are pretty ok (obviously past 20 systems, a new patrol should be created, you can't expect them to protect the whole galaxy).
I don't know if I fully like the update or not. I kinda like the new population system, but feel like he is more tedious (not necessary a bad thing, since at mid game you actually have some internal stuff to do) and lack personnality. By that i means that before, when i spotted a good planet, thanks to its specials or rare tiles, i could go "Oh, this will be a industry planet !" or "Oh, a nice resort planet !".
Now it more like "eh, this planet has more red case than the others, guess that it will be a mining planet". It feels more dull. And losing the tiles will means mods like alphamod (which add lot of infrastructures depending on planetary tiles and such) will lose interest.
Now about megacorp, i don't like them much. I tried a classic "profit" company, but keeping people life quality in mind, going the full "xenophile" way. I could only find one civilization that accepted a trade deal with me, meaning i could get a market in their capital. Other than that, it's a classic empire play, where you colonize, expand, etc... I expected to play more like the republic of CKII.
I also tried a evil megacorp, trying to rp the black sun of star wars. Well i managed to get 2 branchs criminal offices in others nations, before their police kept shutting my operation down, one month after they were being install, so i just let it go and play full evil, but classic, empire.
Post by: Sartain on December 10, 2018, 05:08:35 am
I don't know if I fully like the update or not. I kinda like the new population system, but feel like he is more tedious (not necessary a bad thing, since at mid game you actually have some internal stuff to do) and lack personnality. By that i means that before, when i spotted a good planet, thanks to its specials or rare tiles, i could go "Oh, this will be a industry planet !" or "Oh, a nice resort planet !".
Now it more like "eh, this planet has more red case than the others, guess that it will be a mining planet". It feels more dull. And losing the tiles will means mods like alphamod (which add lot of infrastructures depending on planetary tiles and such) will lose interest.
Funny, I found the old tile system to make for very bland planets but I love the new features/blockers system where you can scroll through a list to see the areas specific to a planet, and what you're able to unlock if you research the right blocker removers. Seems more like you're actually managing/planning the exploitation of planetary resources and the development of infrastructure. Although parts of the UI are pretty atrocious but hey, it's Paradox ;D
Post by: dennislp3 on December 10, 2018, 07:16:36 am
I don't know if I fully like the update or not. I kinda like the new population system, but feel like he is more tedious (not necessary a bad thing, since at mid game you actually have some internal stuff to do) and lack personnality. By that i means that before, when i spotted a good planet, thanks to its specials or rare tiles, i could go "Oh, this will be a industry planet !" or "Oh, a nice resort planet !".
Now it more like "eh, this planet has more red case than the others, guess that it will be a mining planet". It feels more dull. And losing the tiles will means mods like alphamod (which add lot of infrastructures depending on planetary tiles and such) will lose interest.
Tiles became the blockers/special features as well as special planet modifiers (those didn't change)
Pops became much less micro intensive
buildings are still the main way to specialize
Minerals and credits are much easier to come by and the alloys and special gases are the new resources people focus on so not having enough yellow/red/green districts on a specific planet isn;t a huge deal as fas as I have seen.
Also you make it sound like you used to be able to choose which planets you specialized and now you can't...its still the exact same. Some planets are better (based on special modifiers and tiles) for minerals, some for science, etc so not sure what you mean when you say that choosing worlds is "dull" now.
As for Alphamod...they will adapt. Seems odd that you think they will just go "Oh well no more tiles so we will just chop out half the mod because we can't think of any solutions"
It sounds to me like you are still thinking of everything in a 2.0 lens and have given very little thought or effort in regards to the new systems.
Post by: Criptfeind on December 10, 2018, 09:08:36 am
I'm like over 100 years into my game so far, and my starting planet still hasn't maxed out it's population, the only planet that has is a primitive planet (sol) I took over as my third colony and made into a mostly rural world. Making a giant planet later on the game seems like... Well, that it'll never reach it's potential unless I was to play for a few hundred years longer then I normally do.
Maybe robots? I don't have those (they got offered once early game and then never again...) If that's the answer though it certainly feels like religious lads might be getting a bit fucked.
Post by: Telgin on December 10, 2018, 09:17:16 am
I think that maybe the devs intended for ring worlds and ecumonopoleis to be something that you would spend the entire game developing and never finishing. That's both good and bad. It's good because it gives you something to do throughout the end game other than prosecute wars, but also bad because it means you're unlikely to ever fully put them to use in a normal game. Then again, I got the First League forerunner and so ended up with an ecumonopolis by about 2250, which means I might get it mostly or fully developed by the end game.
I also haven't built a ring world yet, but I'm really interested to see how well they function. The fact that they get 200 total districts now, but can only house agriculture, energy and city districts, means that I'm not sure how I'd put one to use. Maybe as a massive energy and agricultural center, but I'd prefer to make them huge research sites. The limit on the number of buildings may make that less practical... although you could probably cram as many as 40-50 researcher jobs in if you really tried.
Quote from: dennislp3
It sounds to me like you are still thinking of everything in a 2.0 lens
Yeah, honestly, I think the game does a better job of making planets feel like they have a dedicated purpose now. The limited number of building slots means you want to only build certain buildings on certain planets, such as mineral processing plants, so it makes sense to dedicate planets to mining or agriculture now. You can, of course, still build a mineral processing plant, energy nexus and agri-center (or whatever it was called) on every world, but it's an opportunity cost.
Actually, maybe it's better to just distinguish resource gathering planets like those from manufacturing and processing planets that will have things like civilian industries, alloy foundries and research labs. Mixing them on the same planet kind of wastes building slots.
I also tried a evil megacorp, trying to rp the black sun of star wars. Well i managed to get 2 branchs criminal offices in others nations, before their police kept shutting my operation down, one month after they were being install, so i just let it go and play full evil, but classic, empire.
This is partially working as intended, I think, since you're still weakening those empires by forcing them to spend resources and pops on enforcer jobs, but the devs have also acknowledged that the AI loves precinct houses way too much right now.
Post by: Whivy on December 10, 2018, 09:43:01 am
Tiles became the blockers/special features as well as special planet modifiers (those didn't change)
Pops became much less micro intensive
buildings are still the main way to specialize
My point still stand, I found visualising the planet easier before, since you saw the landscape with all the special tile at once. I don't even fiddle with the special feature too much. I find it too dull to have a list with how many cavern or hot source i have that allow for this or that district.
For pops, i have to disagree though. I found it less micro before. Maybe a personnal feeling, but now you have to focus more on how you will house, give work and adapt your planet with the district. It isn't necessary a bad thing, but it is, imho, more micro than just placing infrastructure on tiles where pops grew from before.
For buildings, well yeah, but i liked how past infra worked with each others, giving bonus according to how there were placed.
Minerals and credits are much easier to come by and the alloys and special gases are the new resources people focus on so not having enough yellow/red/green districts on a specific planet isn;t a huge deal as fas as I have seen.
Agreed with that, i like the alloy and special resources new system. Make building a fleet more challenging and interesting. Before, just having shit tons of mineral was enough. Now you have to implement a neat workflow around minerals. Way better. And some systems actually got so strategically import, resources-wise, that i wage war over, so a + in my book.
A bit sad that, as you said, districts don't matter much. They change the label about your planet speciality, so there's that. Relying only on mining station is a quick way to mineral/energy shortage though, with the consumer goods we have to produce now.
Also you make it sound like you used to be able to choose which planets you specialized and now you can't...its still the exact same. Some planets are better (based on special modifiers and tiles) for minerals, some for science, etc so not sure what you mean when you say that choosing worlds is "dull" now.
This is, again, a personal and rp feeling. I still find that it was easier to spot, at a glance, what planet was good for, without having to scroll through a list (i don't like list that much). I found planning a planet specialization before full colonization was easier when i could see the whole lands. Now, i just see (at a glance again) how many districts i can build. But hey, to each their own on that, i will not stop playing for that anyway.
As for Alphamod...they will adapt. Seems odd that you think they will just go "Oh well no more tiles so we will just chop out half the mod because we can't think of any solutions"
They will adapt, if the guy behind it have the will, for sure. But from what i remember, a lot of alpha mods was based on special resources usages and how you could keep natural odd tiles on planet to use their neighboring properties. Now, you could replace that with special features and buildings based on it (like, a zoo for exotic pets), but buildings are more restricted that before. But yeah, the mod is not dead, and paradox propose a whole lot of options new mod could go with, i'm happy with that.
It sounds to me like you are still thinking of everything in a 2.0 lens and have given very little thought or effort in regards to the new systems.
Not sure what you means by that though. Obviously, i'm looking at the systems changes, while keeping in mind how it work before. That's a comparison, after all i'm playing an update, not a whole new game. You say that like i said "stellaris 2.2 is shit!" but i didn't, nor i find it to be bad, not at all.
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 10, 2018, 10:10:20 am
I have a Cybrex homeworld under development since a good while back. It's 2400, and the two repaired sections have 30 and 40 pops currently (out of ~2000 total). I'm running an ascended synthetic empire so there's no migration, but I've been resettling excess pops from other planets.
If I'm counting right, the maximum number of jobs a planet can have is 276, if one builds only commercial megaplexes. I don't think I'll get anywhere close to that before the end game crisis hits.
Btw, the RNG gods were kind to me in this game. Apart from the next-door Cybrex, the Worm quest line resulted in extra 5(!) planets in my home system.
Post by: acidia on December 10, 2018, 10:21:34 am
End game, I have a bunch of habitats and ring world sections I never put much effort into because they don't fit well into the mineral/alloy cycle. If there was a spam-able mining building similar to the hydroponics farm for planets, that would be great (broken?) since I could move industry to the habitats/ringworld. As it was, my capital was full mining districts and had all its building slots available to accomplish most of my industry.
Post by: Telgin on December 10, 2018, 11:44:11 am
Regarding habitat use, I'd planned to make my habitats research focused, but I'll have to see after I get it built. Based on the discussions I've been reading, they might be good to serve as processing centers for alloys too or for making rare resources, but aren't as much of a no brainer in general as they used to be.
Same with ring worlds. I used to build 3-5 per game just because they were great all around ways to maximize output vs. owned systems, but now that empire size is now based on districts, I imagine I might build one to serve as a massive agricultural world and not bother building more.
Post by: Cruxador on December 10, 2018, 12:25:38 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on December 10, 2018, 12:45:36 pm
Post by: umiman on December 10, 2018, 12:52:07 pm
Not to mention how slow movement speed is.
Everything is just so slow right now.
And I would agree that this system actually takes more micro than before. In the past I could build everything in one go and forget about the planet. Here I have to needlessly wait for the super slow pop growth before I can do anything. And yeah, the automated builder is just for decoration. Doesn't do anything.
Post by: BurnedToast on December 10, 2018, 01:11:14 pm
Let me know if anyone figures out a good habitat build. Just played my first game going wonder heavy and once I started building habitats I realized that I didn't know how to use them. They cost 4 or 5 alloy in upkeep which was my first big surprise. I think I went with 3 residential, 1 entertainment, 2/3 science, 2/3 economic. I dropped a couple mote/crystal/gas fabricators in each but never even finished filling them up. I had four built before my first section of a ring world was completed. Ring world A had to be food centered so that all planets could be mining focused, realized at that point the best use of habitats were farming pop to fill the ring faster. Second ring world section was energy generation. With all the food and energy I could need I didn't even finish the ring world and went straight for the mining wonder then ecumenopolis.
End game, I have a bunch of habitats and ring world sections I never put much effort into because they don't fit well into the mineral/alloy cycle. If there was a spam-able mining building similar to the hydroponics farm for planets, that would be great (broken?) since I could move industry to the habitats/ringworld. As it was, my capital was full mining districts and had all its building slots available to accomplish most of my industry.
Habitats were overnerfed. Not that they were ever amazing, but now they aren't generally worth building at all IMO.
But that said if you do want to build them, I think you already found the best use - farming pops. Since stellaris' population growth is stupidly linear, 10 pops (or w/e) in a habitat create as much immigration pressure as 1000 pops stuffed in an overcrowded ecumenopolis. So you can build a ton of habitats for the sole purpose of creating immigrats to fill up your big worlds.
Post by: Empty on December 10, 2018, 01:30:24 pm
Post by: Digital Hellhound on December 10, 2018, 01:40:30 pm
I struggled a lot early-game, but I was saved by the one thing I don't need. I produce enormous amounts of food for sale or for my Bio-Reactors, which is nice and keeps my economy going. I like to think half the galaxy eats my soulless, mass-produced, identical food crops, especially the xenophobes, spiritualists and other AI-haters.
Post by: Telgin on December 10, 2018, 01:43:37 pm
Pretty sure the devs acknowledged that robot assembly was too slow for them right now.
Yeah I'm not a big fan of how slow pop growth is right now.
Not to mention how slow movement speed is.
Everything is just so slow right now.
And I would agree that this system actually takes more micro than before. In the past I could build everything in one go and forget about the planet. Here I have to needlessly wait for the super slow pop growth before I can do anything. And yeah, the automated builder is just for decoration. Doesn't do anything.
It's definitely slower than before, and it feels like a lot of early things like techs were slowed down. And you're right about needing to wait for pops to build things on planets, but at least there's no need to go back and hit the upgrade icon on every tile of every planet now.
I actually wonder if it's even economically feasible to have every building maximally upgraded on every planet now.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on December 10, 2018, 01:45:13 pm
So far the update + DLC has probably been my favorite update to Stellaris thus far. But it's just so unpolished. The AI is completely broken. Machine races are nerfed to high hell (or just made more annoying in playing). Assigning pops to specific jobs is actual hell. Knowing anything about pops at all is impossible ("4 of your pops got the vegetable trait. GOOD LUCK KNOWING WHO THEY ARE AND WHAT THEY DO!!!!"). Marketplace is just... weird balance-wise right now. Patrolling is strange. Micromanagement in terms of buildings is up. Pops just behave weirdly in general, and much more.
Yet again, regardless of that, this has been my favorite update. It just feels like the dev team has been so focused on completely redoing and adding mechanics that they forgot to really take a look at the game as a whole and look at how the different parts interact with each other.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 10, 2018, 01:56:31 pm
Pop growth slow? Go grab some from your neighbor. Need resources? Declare war, take one planet, sell everyone there on the slave market, instant 30000-50000 energy. Buy some stuff. Buy a space Mercedes. I spend lots of time micromanaging slave pops between worlds to balance efficiency and worker/technician use. You can jump-start colonies, specialize your main pop into sciency things, all of that.
I'm playing spiritualist xenophobes. My buddy is playing a materialist/egalitarian technocracy. I have kept up with and occasionally exceeded his scientific output for most of the game by sheer force of bodies available to run the research labs (we are around mid game). Fun fact: non-slaving empires can buy slaves on the market and free them.
Secondly, has anyone else noticed that Purity Orders and the like are now extremely, extremely dangerous? They used to just be angry and able to keep up with the rest of the galaxy, but now they seem to just run roughshod over everything.
And thirdly, they need to work on transparency/UI upgrades. There is a way to do everything but it's hidden behind 16 mouse clicks and no explanation.
Post by: umiman on December 10, 2018, 02:15:13 pm
Fucking Christ who even plays this game? Surely the devs don't.
1. We don't know how much of a piracy-reduction a patrol actually is, leaving us to guess how many ships we need to assign to a route. (yes I know there's a hidden modifier tucked away inside the ship designer but seriously? Why is it hidden?)
2. The routes don't make any sense. I have a trading route that literally goes through another empire, taking the long way around, before coming to my capital.
3. Why is it so goddamn annoying to assign patrols in the first place? Every time you go to war you need to grab all the patrols and bring them into the fight. Then when you're done comes the stupid manual assignment and slowly waiting for them to move around so you can micromanage these dumb patrol routes.
4. Why do I need to patrol trade routes from my own stations but not trade routes from other empires? How does that make any sense? Why aren't there trade routes from other empires to begin with?
What the hell is wrong with the Stellaris devs seriously. How do they fuck up every single time?
I'm still entirely unconvinced to the benefits of this new system other than it initially looks more complex but ends up boiling down to the same exact thing... except worse since the AI has gone back to being completely incapable of handling it again. I would not be surprised if those poor modders who's job is to fix this stupid mess to make the AI competent finally throw their hands up and give up as the devs keep faffing about and messing everything up every patch.
Post by: BurnedToast on December 10, 2018, 02:53:05 pm
First of all, slavery is how to win at Stellaris now.
Pop growth slow? Go grab some from your neighbor. Need resources? Declare war, take one planet, sell everyone there on the slave market, instant 30000-50000 energy. Buy some stuff. Buy a space Mercedes. I spend lots of time micromanaging slave pops between worlds to balance efficiency and worker/technician use. You can jump-start colonies, specialize your main pop into sciency things, all of that.
Not just slavery, but war and hard expansion in general.
They spent so long making the game snowball less with mixed results, then they drop this update and make the game even more snowbally than ever. A big part of the problem is the utterly broken AI, but even if that was fixed pop growth is just too slow compared to everything else. It's so out of pace that stealing the enemy's stuff is the only way to grow at a reasonable rate.
Playing "tall" was never, and probably never will be a viable choice outside of "fun" or "roleplay" but they completely gutted it with this update anyway.
Is it me or are machine races really gimped with their growth now?
They had some kind of livestreamed "play with the devs" event right before the update came out, and one of the players stomped all over the devs using a robot race. So they last minute overnerfed robot races and robots in generally really hard. To be fair, they were kind of OP.... but not really worse than hive minds are right now and hive minds didn't get touched.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 10, 2018, 03:06:35 pm
Also, a starbase in a system 100% suppresses piracy from what I can tell. I just build my anchorages along my trade routes and park like, 1-2 corvettes in a system that I can't put one in.
Have not yet needed to shift those patrols into my wars.
I do like the new Federation mechanics, no more AI taking leadership. That Federation fleet is all mine.
Spoiler: A Slave Story (click to show/hide)
Post by: Telgin on December 10, 2018, 03:46:05 pm
I haven't seen trade routes do hilariously dumb things like path through other empires, but I've heard of people with problems like that. Apparently it's not uncommon for trade routes to take different paths than the patrol routes you can set, which sounds very annoying. I've read you can set multiple waypoints in a patrol route by using shift, but haven't tried it. That would solve that problem to a point, if it's true.
And I'm still figuring out the suppression mechanics, but I think starbases suppress all piracy in their own systems, plus some amount in neighboring systems based on what weapon modules they have built and with hangars being the best. Not really sure how having guns on a starbase helps to protect neighboring systems that need FTL drives to reach, but it's how it works. I think.
Post by: umiman on December 10, 2018, 04:25:40 pm
Playing as a Megacorporation. No mods or anything.
Post by: Rolan7 on December 10, 2018, 05:00:18 pm
Piracy can still happen in a system with a starbase, but trade routes don't appear to generate piracy in the system they originate. Only along the route. Which is why your capital starbase is so great, it generates *no* piracy even if it's collecting from systems 6 jumps away, since piracy is only generated between the capital and the collecting starbase.
Ooh - hangars work the same as missile batteries, except they provide 10 protection each instead of 5! I should have researched those earlier. They also make more sense than gun batteries protecting nearby systems, heh.
Post by: umiman on December 10, 2018, 05:04:09 pm
Each missile or gun battery increases the starbase's range of protection by one. Like each trade post increase collection range. Everything in the range of a 4-missile starhold has 36 trade value protected (16 for starhold, 5 each for missile). Protection from multiple starbases overlaps, fortunately.
Piracy can still happen in a system with a starbase, but trade routes don't appear to generate piracy in the system they originate. Only along the route. Which is why your capital starbase is so great, it generates *no* piracy even if it's collecting from systems 6 jumps away, since piracy is only generated between the capital and the collecting starbase.
Ooh - hangars work the same as missile batteries, except they provide 10 protection each instead of 5! I should have researched those earlier. They also make more sense than gun batteries protecting nearby systems, heh.
Thank god.
I'm going to start building hangar stations then instead of relying on the idiotic patrolling system.
I tried using the shift-click patrol thing to make my patrol go where my trade route actually goes and it just crashed the game instead.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 10, 2018, 05:45:11 pm
And oh my god once you really get rolling pop growth can get out of control. I have had to severely control my population or else my empire will collapse under the weight of bodies.
Post by: umiman on December 10, 2018, 06:25:02 pm
Right now the AI is constantly sending waves of corvettes into my space. I can't figure out how to get them to maybe build something else. I didn't even ask them to do this, they just constantly send them in. I tried using the fleet manager on it, but all it did was make it so I build the other ships.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on December 10, 2018, 06:47:52 pm
With people wondering how to fill ringworlds... Does excess food production no longer increase population growth? Otherwise it seems like you could have exponential pop growth by devoting it tit food production.
Growth from excess food doesn't seem to be a thing now, as far as I can tell. But you can set a policy to increase food consumption by 33% to get +10% more pop growth so... it doesn't really balance out.
Post by: Telgin on December 10, 2018, 06:54:39 pm
Does anyone know how to change what the AI decides to build for the Federation fleet?
Right now the AI is constantly sending waves of corvettes into my space. I can't figure out how to get them to maybe build something else. I didn't even ask them to do this, they just constantly send them in. I tried using the fleet manager on it, but all it did was make it so I build the other ships.
I don't think there's any way to influence it in game, and I'm not even sure about modding. I think the reason it's only building corvettes is the same reason that AIs seem to be stuck doing that in general - ships cost a ton of alloys and they probably don't even have the resources to build much more.
Post by: Whivy on December 11, 2018, 04:08:19 am
Post by: Criptfeind on December 11, 2018, 08:40:43 am
I'll say, even if the AI mod is pretty good (no idea if it is, having not tried it myself, but I'd hope so) the basic state of the AI is really unacceptable, mods shouldn't have to add even basic functionality to the game.
Post by: Telgin on December 11, 2018, 09:53:43 am
In my unmodded game, I was at first thinking that the AI was working okay, but now that I'm past the mid game I see that it's not. There's been one early war, plus lots of insults, rivalries and other diplomatic actions between the AI actors, but by 2320 it looks like the biggest fleet is mine at around 5K fleet power. Not sure if it's just the alloy shortage to blame either, since according to the score screen my empire has about twice the economic power of the next best empire, and over four times the research points. Those aren't limited by alloys. This is on captain difficulty, so the AI has some cheats to boost its economy, but not like grand admiral.
Unrelated to that, but I'm not sure that the droid and synthetics upgrades are working now. I know something was changed related to this, but after researching both techs, nothing seems to have changed. I still have "robotic worker" pops instead of synthetics. Do the robots just get a production bonus now? I also don't seem to have any increase in consumer goods or housing after researching it either, despite also giving AI citizen rights, and the robots' species rights say they're still under servitude.
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 11, 2018, 10:13:08 am
Unrelated to that, but I'm not sure that the droid and synthetics upgrades are working now. I know something was changed related to this, but after researching both techs, nothing seems to have changed. I still have "robotic worker" pops instead of synthetics. Do the robots just get a production bonus now? I also don't seem to have any increase in consumer goods or housing after researching it either, despite also giving AI citizen rights, and the robots' species rights say they're still under servitude.If you read the description for the techs carefully, they work differently now. Each upgrade allows the same robotic pops to work higher-tier jobs (worker->specialist->ruler). They don't get any more productive.
Post by: Telgin on December 11, 2018, 10:32:24 am
I'm probably missing something, but that feels like it almost makes droids and synthetics useless techs unless you plan to go for the synthetic ascension route, because I mostly build robots to fill the lowest worker stratum jobs anyway. I assume droids can still colonize, so that's one benefit, and you can resettle them to work important jobs on other planets if in a pinch I suppose.
Post by: Kot on December 11, 2018, 11:04:43 am
Post by: Criptfeind on December 11, 2018, 11:38:11 am
Members on Paradox's forums seem to agree that Glavius(?)'s mod does make the AI work much better even in 2.2. It's kind of funny, since I have no idea what a modder could change that would make the AI work better than what the developers already do. My guess is that the mod must give the AI some kinds of cheats, since if it's just adjusting build weights or other mod adjustable parameters, the developers would quickly adjust their own numbers to be closer to it. I'm pretty sure I saw something about at least one AI mod giving the AI instant troop transports to get around the "bombarding a planet for 50 years" bug, for example.
I honestly think this is giving way too much credit to paradox devs and/or not enough to the modders. I find it fully believable that the paradox devs simply don't actually play test the game to the point where some stuff (not everything obviously, but quite a bit) can be fixed with weighting. I mean, clearly QA is so lackluster that that's possible, otherwise the game would have never reached this terrible of state.
Post by: umiman on December 11, 2018, 12:01:36 pm
I will never understand this mentality of theirs.
So while I do my achievement hunts I can't fix the AI. Yay. Thanks Paradox.
-------
You know I've written multiple page-spanning rants on this update and every time I keep deleting it because I want to spare you guys from having to read it. Suffice to say I really, really don't like this "update". I think all it does is add nonsense busywork, is shallower than a thin veneer of rock slime, and puts everything on slow motion while Wiz et al. still can't figure out what they want to do with their lives.
Post by: Majestic7 on December 11, 2018, 12:07:33 pm
Post by: Paul on December 11, 2018, 12:17:10 pm
Post by: Telgin on December 11, 2018, 12:31:37 pm
AI mods "fix" the AI by creating events and scrips which force AI to do "sensible" things. For example, they spawn fleets and spawn buildings on planets or make the AI dismantle useless buildings. Most of them don't cheat as such, because the reduct the appropriate amount of resources when spawning those etc. But they are still a crutch and not an actual fix.
That makes more sense, and also helps to explain why the devs haven't just taken the same approach. I imagine any attempts to fix the AI are done at a lower level so that it makes better decisions in the first place, but clearly that's not working out.
I really don't think they tested the update as much as they should have, and the unexpectedly early release date probably has something to do with that. From what it looks like, they probably used the dev clash and other internal multiplayer sessions to do most of their testing, so problems with the AI were probably missed. Not that it's any excuse, of course.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 11, 2018, 12:55:39 pm
Still, achievements are only good for bragging rights and all-too-easy to get with certain mods, so I understand the reason even if I don't agree with it.
Post by: umiman on December 11, 2018, 12:55:46 pm
Mods disable achievements because achievements themselves are just handled in-script.No, mods disable achievements because the devs of this game put a check in their game that goes...
"oh you're using some mods? Imma gonna disable your achievements real quick. Wouldn't want you to cheat in our broken-ass unfinished game for singleplayer trophies that have no meaning to anyone but yourself"
Most normal, sane devs can't be bothered to go through the extra steps to cockblock their own playerbase like that.
You can still earn achievements in modded games in Stellaris, but that involves memory editing the game so it thinks an unmodded ironman game is running. If you do that you can earn achievements even with mods.
Post by: Orb on December 11, 2018, 01:27:39 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 11, 2018, 01:41:19 pm
You guys sure do complain a lot. I think the update is fantastic. Feels like a real game now. Actually played out to late game without getting bored.Agreed. The new systems feel good. This new update really shines in multiplayer too.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 11, 2018, 01:45:04 pm
There's a Fanatical Purifier that's taken over around 20% of the galaxy at a time when me and my duo buddy have just researched shields. One of us has anyway. It took about a year for them to completely obliterate a neighboring nation that was the combined size of both our space.
We had to pool the entirety of our combined alloy reserves to build/upgrade our federation fleet to a point where we can safely combat them. Their actual planets are something like 20-30 jumps away, so reinforcements and repairs will become a problem. We have to plan a way to quickly overwhelm their initial fleets and capture a starbase of theirs for repairs, only then can we take their planets.
Question: Is enslaving genocidal fanatical purifiers in order to stop their mad campaign a moral neutral? Discuss.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 11, 2018, 01:48:55 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 11, 2018, 02:00:57 pm
Question: Is enslaving genocidal fanatical purifiers in order to stop their mad campaign a moral neutral? Discuss.Tau_invasion_of_Damocles_Gulf.jpg
Post by: Majestic7 on December 11, 2018, 02:28:09 pm
Post by: Telgin on December 11, 2018, 02:32:17 pm
You guys sure do complain a lot. I think the update is fantastic. Feels like a real game now. Actually played out to late game without getting bored.
Criticisms of the subpar AI and bugs aside, I agree. The new economic system needs a lot of tweaking, but it added a ton of depth to the game I'm really enjoying. I enjoy sim games more than strategy games, so Stellaris moving in that direction is a good thing in my opinion.
Post by: Rolan7 on December 11, 2018, 02:33:14 pm
Slowly look over to that Fanatic Authoritarian empire that accepted my migration treaty.
"Honored Blorg, whatever can we do for you today, our lovely friends?"
"Um, can we get a brief sensor link? We'll pay you a bunch of credits."
"Anything for our partners in the stars!"
yeah like a quarter of their population is Blorg (and Nivlac XD) slaves
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 11, 2018, 02:39:30 pm
Since Fanatical Purification is a cultural thing, not a biological one, it would be interesting if a Purifier species could experience a revolution and realize what horrible shit they've done. Or at least get dissident factions disagreeing with the galactical genocide.That's already in game
Post by: umiman on December 11, 2018, 02:43:08 pm
Since Fanatical Purification is a cultural thing, not a biological one, it would be interesting if a Purifier species could experience a revolution and realize what horrible shit they've done. Or at least get dissident factions disagreeing with the galactical genocide.What is this speciesism!
I'll have you know that the great purging of the unclean is written into our DNA. We are genetically hardwired to burn the impure. Literally tattooed into every protein.
Don't impose your ignorant pacificism on our superior biology.
Post by: Telgin on December 11, 2018, 02:52:41 pm
Actually, I'd rather play non hivemind robots from the start in some fashion, but from what I gather that isn't possible without mods.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 11, 2018, 03:00:01 pm
I guess you would have to eat food n stuff, though.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 11, 2018, 04:17:18 pm
I mean, you can totally pick robot portraitsNot without mods you can't. If you pick robot you have to be gestalt
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 11, 2018, 04:33:59 pm
I could definitely be crazy but I swear I checked on the new update and I certainly don't have any mods.
Post by: Mini on December 11, 2018, 05:12:55 pm
That would involve swapping out the Fanatic Purifier civic, right? Presumably you can do that with Determined Exterminator as well? I kind of wanted to try a Determined Exterminator game where I had a flash of conscience halfway through and swapped out for some other government type, but wasn't sure if it was possible.You can't actually remove the civic after the start of the game, but if it becomes invalid (via ethic switching) then it stops doing anything. So you could do that (as long as you don't mind being down a civic slot) as fanatic purifiers, but not as devouring swarm or determined exterminators.
And then it flip back on after everybody still hates you for purging.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 11, 2018, 05:20:36 pm
Are you super sure? Because I'm fairly sure the mechanical robot portraits are just there, you can pick the LOOK for anything....?I just tested it. If you pick a robot portrait you must take the gestalt robot authority
I could definitely be crazy but I swear I checked on the new update and I certainly don't have any mods.
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 11, 2018, 05:53:55 pm
You can't actually remove the civic after the start of the game, but if it becomes invalid (via ethic switching) then it stops doing anything. So you could do that (as long as you don't mind being down a civic slot) as fanatic purifiers, but not as devouring swarm or determined exterminators.I remember when my friends were still stellaris newbs. I ethics shifted out to disable fanatical purifier to be able to conduct diplomacy with them, until such time as I felt it was appropriate to reawaken the Pure Dungroller Colony
And then it flip back on after everybody still hates you for purging.
Post by: MorleyDev on December 12, 2018, 08:16:40 am
Then the Scourge dropped. On top of my homeworld. And my total fleet power is 100k. And I`m on 1.5x Crisis power.
Fuuuuuu....
Post by: Telgin on December 12, 2018, 09:21:55 am
I'm glad the Khan didn't trigger in this game and that nobody opened the L-gate. A midgame crisis would have steamrolled the galaxy.
Also, I'm not in love with habitats right now. I can see how they might have niche applications, but I think I may actually skip the Voidborne ascension perk next time for the first time since I got Utopia. They cost a ton of alloys and don't have a big enough population to really support enough buildings to make it feel worth using them, even with Master Builders.
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 12, 2018, 09:46:46 am
The terraforming machines event triggered on First League homeworld.
Post by: Majestic7 on December 12, 2018, 10:01:25 am
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 12, 2018, 01:38:37 pm
City planets.
Post by: Madman198237 on December 12, 2018, 02:09:49 pm
Alternatively, we can mix universes and call them
Post by: Trekkin on December 12, 2018, 02:11:52 pm
Ecumenopoli, I think. Though that's more a Latin form of conjugation and polis is a Greek word....ah well whatever.
Alternatively, we can mix universes and call themHobbitsesEcumenopolises.
Merriam-Webster agrees with the latter, actually, or rarely ecumenopoleis.
Post by: Madman198237 on December 12, 2018, 02:15:58 pm
Post by: MorleyDev on December 12, 2018, 04:03:01 pm
Post by: Telgin on December 12, 2018, 04:14:44 pm
That's kind of exacerbated by the fact that you can put down hydroponic farms if necessary for food, or trade complexes for energy, but there's no equivalent for minerals. Which does make sense, although having some equivalent of the old matter replicator would be nice.
Post by: MorleyDev on December 12, 2018, 04:25:59 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 12, 2018, 04:37:04 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 12, 2018, 05:52:33 pm
Is this a feature, or a bug? And does it happen with terraforming to other types?
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 12, 2018, 06:16:47 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 12, 2018, 06:26:49 pm
Seriously, if it's a feature, then it's a major bummer. A very expensive 'lose half yer minerals income' button, if one intended to improve their already-colonised planets.
Post by: Telgin on December 12, 2018, 06:44:01 pm
Has anyone done extensive terraforming? I'm turning my inhabited planets into Gaias, and it looks like they're losing resource districts in the process (i.e. relevant planetary features are disappearing). I'm sure I've lost a lot of mining districts (like, from 8 to 0 in one case), and at least some generators. I'm pretty certain I haven't seen any new features appear in place of the lost ones, so it's not a feature re-roll.
Is this a feature, or a bug? And does it happen with terraforming to other types?
Others have reported it as a bug, and I think they're right. I've done the same and seen the same problem.
Supposedly, what's happening is that gaia worlds don't have any 1 district sized features, so when you terraform a planet, the features that are 1 district size just vanish instead of getting converted into a new district like they should be.
I haven't found any gaia worlds in the wild yet, but playing life-seeded implies that this might be right, since my starting world in that case has lots of features like you'd expect.
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 12, 2018, 07:14:22 pm
Post by: Cruxador on December 12, 2018, 10:42:40 pm
Alright then, I'mma give Stellaris a pass for a while, until it gets a bit patched. The amount of bugs so far kills the fun.Don't worry, even if they patch the bugs, Wiz and co. are hard at work finding lot of other ways to kill the fun :)
Post by: Vgray on December 13, 2018, 02:44:23 am
(https://i.imgur.com/TWzCPod.png)
All pops on their planet are enslaved by the way. Mostly organic with six or so dumb robot pops.
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 13, 2018, 08:49:19 am
I get it you and others have some kind of beef with the devs, but other than the bugs I'm very happy with the game.Alright then, I'mma give Stellaris a pass for a while, until it gets a bit patched. The amount of bugs so far kills the fun.Don't worry, even if they patch the bugs, Wiz and co. are hard at work finding lot of other ways to kill the fun :)
Post by: Telgin on December 13, 2018, 09:22:41 am
I give you, the United Robot Hegemony.
[image removed]
All pops on their planet are enslaved by the way. Mostly organic with six or so dumb robot pops.
Is this modded? Or how did the game end up generating a robot empire that's not gestalt? You say that the empire is mostly organic, but the game seems to think that the main species is the robots.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 13, 2018, 11:10:57 am
The second empire I found I dropped down a smuggler's port. I'm now getting around 25 energy in trade value from them and their crime is steadily rising out of their control. Both of them went from superior to me to inferior in the span of a decade. Part of that is that the AI seems to not know how to manage crime, a player would have scrapped some buildings and build more enforcers to reduce crime and kick out the criminal syndicate eventually.
Post by: Whivy on December 13, 2018, 11:34:44 am
Playing my first criminal syndicate and wow, these guys can be brutal. I opened a branch office on the homeworld of the first race I met and dropped down an illicit research lab, this increased crime on their planet to epic proportions. Crime is now 100% as they have a corrupt governor and 'mob rule' from events. They can barely eek out a living and have had to dismiss most of their ships just to keep their economy afloat. With that one building I rendered them completely nonthreatening, they can barely afford anything.
The second empire I found I dropped down a smuggler's port. I'm now getting around 25 energy in trade value from them and their crime is steadily rising out of their control. Both of them went from superior to me to inferior in the span of a decade. Part of that is that the AI seems to not know how to manage crime, a player would have scrapped some buildings and build more enforcers to reduce crime and kick out the criminal syndicate eventually.
You're pretty lucky then, people, myself included, report the opposite, AI building tons of enforcer, with no reason. I tried once to open a branch office. Boom, three enforcer buildings.
Post by: Vgray on December 13, 2018, 01:51:23 pm
I give you, the United Robot Hegemony.
[image removed]
All pops on their planet are enslaved by the way. Mostly organic with six or so dumb robot pops.
Is this modded? Or how did the game end up generating a robot empire that's not gestalt? You say that the empire is mostly organic, but the game seems to think that the main species is the robots.
Only mods I have are AI mods. I've noticed rebellions in general are weird. A small colony with two of my own pops (plus one pop of another mammalian species.) broke away from the same empire, and they somehow have an Avian leader whose species is considered the main one.
They rebelled from a Fungoid empire by the way. Who, as far as I know, have no avian pops. Who knows. My galaxy is so cosmopolitan and primitive heavy.
Post by: ventuswings on December 13, 2018, 02:25:03 pm
Post by: Telgin on December 13, 2018, 02:35:25 pm
Anyway, in other news, Wiz announced that he's stepping down as director of Stellaris to work on a new, secret project at Paradox. Theories abound on what it is, or what the future of Stellaris will be. Another director was named already, and Stellaris is Paradox's best seller right now so it's not going away, but who knows what it might mean about the direction of the game.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on December 13, 2018, 02:43:56 pm
Post by: Vgray on December 13, 2018, 02:47:30 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on December 13, 2018, 03:12:43 pm
Post by: Cruxador on December 13, 2018, 03:59:04 pm
I've found them to mostly build enforcers until crime gets into the thirties, though this is based on exactly one game. The difference may stem from what stage of the game you do it in, perhaps?Playing my first criminal syndicate and wow, these guys can be brutal. I opened a branch office on the homeworld of the first race I met and dropped down an illicit research lab, this increased crime on their planet to epic proportions. Crime is now 100% as they have a corrupt governor and 'mob rule' from events. They can barely eek out a living and have had to dismiss most of their ships just to keep their economy afloat. With that one building I rendered them completely nonthreatening, they can barely afford anything.
The second empire I found I dropped down a smuggler's port. I'm now getting around 25 energy in trade value from them and their crime is steadily rising out of their control. Both of them went from superior to me to inferior in the span of a decade. Part of that is that the AI seems to not know how to manage crime, a player would have scrapped some buildings and build more enforcers to reduce crime and kick out the criminal syndicate eventually.
You're pretty lucky then, people, myself included, report the opposite, AI building tons of enforcer, with no reason. I tried once to open a branch office. Boom, three enforcer buildings.
It tends to take around a decade for them to pay for themselves, though, which is the real downside in my opinion. Not worth the 50% size penalty for playing a corporation.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 13, 2018, 05:10:47 pm
Its possible I caught them early enough that they simply can't afford to build the enforcer buildings, sending them into a vicious spiral of doom.Playing my first criminal syndicate and wow, these guys can be brutal. I opened a branch office on the homeworld of the first race I met and dropped down an illicit research lab, this increased crime on their planet to epic proportions. Crime is now 100% as they have a corrupt governor and 'mob rule' from events. They can barely eek out a living and have had to dismiss most of their ships just to keep their economy afloat. With that one building I rendered them completely nonthreatening, they can barely afford anything.
The second empire I found I dropped down a smuggler's port. I'm now getting around 25 energy in trade value from them and their crime is steadily rising out of their control. Both of them went from superior to me to inferior in the span of a decade. Part of that is that the AI seems to not know how to manage crime, a player would have scrapped some buildings and build more enforcers to reduce crime and kick out the criminal syndicate eventually.
You're pretty lucky then, people, myself included, report the opposite, AI building tons of enforcer, with no reason. I tried once to open a branch office. Boom, three enforcer buildings.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on December 13, 2018, 05:58:20 pm
Playing my first criminal syndicate and wow, these guys can be brutal. I opened a branch office on the homeworld of the first race I met and dropped down an illicit research lab, this increased crime on their planet to epic proportions. Crime is now 100% as they have a corrupt governor and 'mob rule' from events. They can barely eek out a living and have had to dismiss most of their ships just to keep their economy afloat. With that one building I rendered them completely nonthreatening, they can barely afford anything.
The second empire I found I dropped down a smuggler's port. I'm now getting around 25 energy in trade value from them and their crime is steadily rising out of their control. Both of them went from superior to me to inferior in the span of a decade. Part of that is that the AI seems to not know how to manage crime, a player would have scrapped some buildings and build more enforcers to reduce crime and kick out the criminal syndicate eventually.
The max crime increase you can do on a planet with less than 50 pops is is +75. A single Enforcers office is -75, totally neutralizing your advantage without spending resources on a crack down. If you find a poorly managed planet you can send them into a spiral because the crime problems build upon themselves but in general criminal branch offices are a losing bet.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 13, 2018, 06:06:00 pm
?? Enforcers do -25 crime, not -75.Playing my first criminal syndicate and wow, these guys can be brutal. I opened a branch office on the homeworld of the first race I met and dropped down an illicit research lab, this increased crime on their planet to epic proportions. Crime is now 100% as they have a corrupt governor and 'mob rule' from events. They can barely eek out a living and have had to dismiss most of their ships just to keep their economy afloat. With that one building I rendered them completely nonthreatening, they can barely afford anything.
The second empire I found I dropped down a smuggler's port. I'm now getting around 25 energy in trade value from them and their crime is steadily rising out of their control. Both of them went from superior to me to inferior in the span of a decade. Part of that is that the AI seems to not know how to manage crime, a player would have scrapped some buildings and build more enforcers to reduce crime and kick out the criminal syndicate eventually.
The max crime increase you can do on a planet with less than 50 pops is is +75. A single Enforcers office is -75, totally neutralizing your advantage without spending resources on a crack down. If you find a poorly managed planet you can send them into a spiral because the crime problems build upon themselves but in general criminal branch offices are a losing bet.
(https://i.imgur.com/pMn0AWU.png)
Here's the planet in question
(https://i.imgur.com/waJ2FQa.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/40ClX5U.png)
They had ZERO crime and around 73% stability before I put my illicit research lab on their world.
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 13, 2018, 06:14:01 pm
?? Enforcers do -25 crime, not -75.He said single enforcer office (the precinct houses or whatever it's called). Together with the basic capital building that's 3 jobs.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 13, 2018, 06:16:07 pm
In this case they can't seem to afford one, or are just unwilling to swap a building out.
Post by: Cruxador on December 13, 2018, 06:21:41 pm
The max crime increase you can do on a planet with less than 50 pops is is +75. A single Enforcers office is -75, totally neutralizing your advantage without spending resources on a crack down. If you find a poorly managed planet you can send them into a spiral because the crime problems build upon themselves but in general criminal branch offices are a losing bet.Conversely, you're neutralizing their enforcers, allowing the natural crime from pops to flourish. You're still looking at an income in the low double digits in exchange for an investment in the thousands, but it's worth doing in the long run, assuming you have the dosh to spare. It would probably even be worth a civic slot compared to a normal empire. But it's just not worth being a corporation for.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on December 13, 2018, 06:26:58 pm
You've imposed +65, that's the only number you control. You can't spend resources to foment unrest or do something clever. If they had zero crime when you built your branch office they either had martial law in effect or picked up a bunch of pops because they take +69 naturally and can only do -37.
Conversely, you're neutralizing their enforcers, allowing the natural crime from pops to flourish. You're still looking at an income in the low double digits in exchange for an investment in the thousands, but it's worth doing in the long run, assuming you have the dosh to spare. It would probably even be worth a civic slot compared to a normal empire. But it's just not worth being a corporation for.I don't think so. You can only cause a little bit of trouble before you're outmaneuvered and you're burning influence and resources on the investment. If it doesn't pan out they can very quickly shut you down. I don't know that I've ever had the cost of investment actually pay off. It's also impossible to start a criminal enterprise on a planet that has a legitimate enterprise so all anyone has to do to permanently block you from encroaching on their worlds is strike a trade deal.
Post by: Egan_BW on December 13, 2018, 06:59:03 pm
Post by: Cruxador on December 13, 2018, 07:07:03 pm
I haven't found either of these problems to be common.Conversely, you're neutralizing their enforcers, allowing the natural crime from pops to flourish. You're still looking at an income in the low double digits in exchange for an investment in the thousands, but it's worth doing in the long run, assuming you have the dosh to spare. It would probably even be worth a civic slot compared to a normal empire. But it's just not worth being a corporation for.I don't think so. You can only cause a little bit of trouble before you're outmaneuvered and you're burning influence and resources on the investment. If it doesn't pan out they can very quickly shut you down. I don't know that I've ever had the cost of investment actually pay off. It's also impossible to start a criminal enterprise on a planet that has a legitimate enterprise so all anyone has to do to permanently block you from encroaching on their worlds is strike a trade deal.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on December 13, 2018, 07:10:08 pm
Kinda sounds like Stellaris needs some mechanics for espionage and such before that can really become interesting.That would be great, if I could spend a little extra to increase the chance of negative events on the planet or really do anything pro-active. It seems like a criminal corporation would be ideal for economic sabotage but you can do very little and can be countered very simply.
I haven't found either of these problems to be common.
I've found them to be extremely common. There are always two or three other corporations vying for spots and they tend to beat me out to a good number of juicy worlds. When I do get a world I'd say about 2/3s of the time I get shut down fairly quickly.
Post by: Vgray on December 13, 2018, 09:19:07 pm
Post by: Digital Hellhound on December 14, 2018, 05:01:40 am
Post by: Vgray on December 14, 2018, 05:42:34 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The funny thing about this image is the Hantak League and the Mandate of Zoldar are vassals of the Jogollwa Autocracy. The former two had room to expand as you see. The Hantak League is the oldest, and notable for rebelling with two systems.
Just for fun, here's the two other rebellious empires in my galaxy.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I think has to my favorite game of Stellaris. I'm sinking under the weight of my 20 planets though. And if I so desired I could colonize about 6 or 7 more! Or take over my neighbors who are half my size.
Post by: Teneb on December 14, 2018, 08:11:26 am
I consistently hear good things about it, but have never tried it myself. I don't even really care about the achievements, and yet I stopped using my own portrait mods over it for some reason...VICTORIA 3
Anyway, in other news, Wiz announced that he's stepping down as director of Stellaris to work on a new, secret project at Paradox. Theories abound on what it is, or what the future of Stellaris will be. Another director was named already, and Stellaris is Paradox's best seller right now so it's not going away, but who knows what it might mean about the direction of the game.
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 14, 2018, 09:09:58 am
VICTORIA 3Be careful what you wish for. Paradox might just give us Victoria III... Divided into a billion DLC, and somehow still shallower than II
Post by: Blood_Librarian on December 14, 2018, 09:13:02 am
Post by: Majestic7 on December 14, 2018, 01:30:32 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on December 14, 2018, 01:56:47 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 14, 2018, 02:37:44 pm
At the least, this means their planet has nearly-permanent modifiers if they manage to kick you out quickly, and oh yes you just dictated 3 of the buildings on their planet to them. Even if you aren't getting a pile of money you are basically wrecking their economy for the cost of upkeep on those syndicate buildings. Criminal syndicates are terrifyingly effective. I've weakened empires to the point where they are basically neutered and I can walk in with a 2k fleet to subjugate them.
Post by: Telgin on December 14, 2018, 03:00:39 pm
I've been afraid to repair or build any gateways because of the bug, so it would be great if the bug was fixed in this patch, or if it was a more general lag fix.
Post by: Orb on December 14, 2018, 05:00:22 pm
For example, crime could be modeled with an exponential curve, rather than a linear one. So there'd always be a small amount of crime, with diminishing returns for lowering it.
Post by: Criptfeind on December 14, 2018, 05:00:43 pm
I've weakened empires to the point where they are basically neutered and I can walk in with a 2k fleet to subjugate them.
To be perfectly fair, I've found that this accurately describes most AI empires in 2.2, with or without a criminal enterprise.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 14, 2018, 05:03:18 pm
I think the real problem is that crime is modeled too simplistically for meaningful interactions with crime syndicates.
For example, crime could be modeled with an exponential curve, rather than a linear one. So there'd always be a small amount of crime, with diminishing returns for lowering it.
I agree that it is a bit simplistic. It's found branch, build stuff, forget. Some more in-depth interactions would certainly be appreciated.
I've weakened empires to the point where they are basically neutered and I can walk in with a 2k fleet to subjugate them.
To be perfectly fair, I've found that this accurately describes most AI empires in 2.2, with or without a criminal enterprise.
Fair, but crime stuff is fire-and-forget. You can employ crime attacks alongside other, more conventional methods.
Post by: Paul on December 14, 2018, 08:51:18 pm
I took a look at one world where I had some aliens migrate there with low habitability and take clerk jobs and realized that they are actually losing me resources. It's 15% habitability, so it consumes 1.85 food and 0.4625 consumer goods and 1.85 amenities. It produces 2 amenities and 2 trade value (which converts to 1 energy and 0.5 consumer goods). So it's producing a net of 0.15 amenity, 0.0375 consumer good, and 1 energy in exchange for 1.8 food. I could just sell the food and end up with more value...
Post by: Cruxador on December 14, 2018, 08:57:58 pm
That said, 15% habitability is a bad thing no matter what. Aliens shouldn't want to go to a world like that, but the way that the species is chosen for pop growth (both immigration and natural) is all fucky right now. Hopefully Moregård will fix it, but he's got a lot to do.
Post by: Paul on December 14, 2018, 09:32:34 pm
I found a rather funny fast researching build. Just go egalitarian and get utopian and build lots of cities and keep most of your people unemployed. Huge research and unity. Dedicate the rest of the people to growing food and producing consumer goods lol. Just can't do migration treaties because all the unemployed people would rather migrate to the slave empire next door as slaves rather than live in abundance as freelance artists and scientists.
Post by: Kanil on December 14, 2018, 10:10:44 pm
Does anyone know if the patch fixed lag from gateways? I saw someone ask on Paradox's forums but they didn't get an answer.
I've been afraid to repair or build any gateways because of the bug, so it would be great if the bug was fixed in this patch, or if it was a more general lag fix.
I've gone from each day taking 5s to every fourth day taking 5s. So it's 75% less bad, but still problematic.
Post by: Rolan7 on December 14, 2018, 10:27:10 pm
I sorta assumed it was good due to the difficulties caused by long trade routes, which is a hint but not a reason. It looks pretty competitive, though?
Spoiler: Thinking out loud (click to show/hide)
For maximizing profit technicians are twice as good as clerks, except that they rely on amenities and energy districts. Looking just at amenities and energy/trade, I guess it's like this:
Technician: 5 income
Clerk: 2 income, supports 1 technician
Entertainer: -2 income (1 goods), supports 9 technicians
In an ideal world (heh) with infinite population and generator districts:
1 entertainer with 9 technicians = 45-2 = 43 profit (and 2 unity)
5 clerks with 5 technicians = 10+25 = 35 profit
So yeah, entertainers are clearly superior for meeting amenity requirements, *and* provide a little unity.
However, I don't think I'll change my strategy much. Spamming commercial zones is much simpler, as it doesn't rely on the natural resources or noticing to add another theater properly. There's "excess" amenities but they're mostly absorbed by the ruler and specialist pops, and provide a nice bonus without going overboard.
Trade goods are also better than straight energy income, since you can assign a portion to consumer goods or even unity. I usually do the first, as it's... simple. Just saves me from making hardly any civilian industries. Which means even less specialists to cater to.
Trade does get much trickier as soon as it requires a route, though. This is just easy for systems with 6 jumps of the capital.
I found a rather funny fast researching build. Just go egalitarian and get utopian and build lots of cities and keep most of your people unemployed. Huge research and unity. Dedicate the rest of the people to growing food and producing consumer goods lol. Just can't do migration treaties because all the unemployed people would rather migrate to the slave empire next door as slaves rather than live in abundance as freelance artists and scientists.Hehe, I've been wanting to do this since I noticed the research boon. Getting unity from unemployed pops with social welfare was sorta nice, but didn't seem worth doing on purpose. Have you actually tried this yet?
I did have a lot of citizens wander into an empire I didn't realize was fanatic authoritarian slavers... Seems a little odd but it takes all types I guess.
Post by: Paul on December 14, 2018, 11:17:03 pm
As far as Entertainer vs Clerks, the +2 unity is a big difference. Assuming you use the trade/unity ratio as the value of unity, it would be worth 6.66. And if it isn't your capital area, you're looking at losses from piracy or investments in stronger anti-piracy stations and/or patrol ships.
I guess they have their place if you have a ton of extra pops to do something with quickly, and they're definitely useful within the range of the capital starbase due to zero piracy concerns; but otherwise they're kind of lousy. Now if you went with a race with the 25% boost to trade value it might be worth it, since that's one of the larger boosts you get to production from traits (others are only 15%). Especially if you stack it with + trade value civics and xenophile...
Post by: MorleyDev on December 15, 2018, 09:55:39 am
As soon as you get strong enough to raid a neighbour and push to and hold a single populated planet with ships, you can just steal so many pops. Free large quantities of slave labour acquired very quickly, alongside huge planet pop growth, and the biggest risk is tanking your food production.
Post by: Criptfeind on December 15, 2018, 09:56:57 am
Post by: MorleyDev on December 15, 2018, 10:00:24 am
Stolen slaves building up your existing planets don't add nearly as much to Admin Cap, so it lets you go *very* tall on a few built up planets *very* quickly.
You can then focus your native pops on Research and Refinement, which can let you get the costs for most tech down to stupidly low levels. Like, most research projects before you get to the repeatable can take less than a year.
If you stack Xenophobic Rapid Breeders on it, then you can get rapid access to a lot of potential specialists on your planets by importing in all the slaves.
Make them Domestic Servitude slaves and you don't even need to worry about the Amenities or unemployment, since unemployed slave pops will create the former and not count as the latter.
Post by: Sartain on December 15, 2018, 11:45:28 am
So the penny has dropped for me that the new system makes Barbaric Despoilers hella good to play as.
As soon as you get strong enough to raid a neighbour and push to and hold a single populated planet with ships, you can just steal so many pops. Free large quantities of slave labour acquired very quickly, alongside huge planet pop growth, and the biggest risk is tanking your food production.
Yeah, that definitely works. And unless the _test branch fixed it you can actually completely empty planets this way, despite the tooltip saying otherwise. My Post-apocalyptic despoilers have had great success raiding ALL pops off planets and then, both other empires and pre-FTL species, and then just settling the planet with my main race afterwards (assuming I want it at all) while the larger share of slaves are being put to work in the mines of my more developed planets.
Post by: Cruxador on December 15, 2018, 12:11:00 pm
Is that better then just taking the planet yourself? And, if it is better, how so? Genuinely interested in knowing, not having played Despoilers, but it seems like in most cases, unless perhaps you are out of influence, if you can steal pops, you can just take the planet yourself.Influence should usually be the limiting factor on what you can take anyway, though.
Post by: MorleyDev on December 15, 2018, 12:13:20 pm
My Post-apocalyptic despoilers have had great success raiding ALL pops off planets
That's odd, I'm finding that the last two Ruler pops always are left hanging around on any empire planet I raid no matter how long I leave my raiders above the planet. Not tried it with Primitives though, since I usually just march an army in there and resettle them manually.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 15, 2018, 12:15:23 pm
Is that better then just taking the planet yourself? And, if it is better, how so? Genuinely interested in knowing, not having played Despoilers, but it seems like in most cases, unless perhaps you are out of influence, if you can steal pops, you can just take the planet yourself.Influence should usually be the limiting factor on what you can take anyway, though.
I generally just take the planet and boop the pops off of it onto my core worlds.
However, this costs energy. Despoliatin' is basically free, though presumably you might need to move some newly imported pops around your own empire afterwards.
Post by: MorleyDev on December 15, 2018, 12:19:24 pm
(P.S, I initially mistyped seizing their whole population as sexing. That's for the filthy xenophiles and their xenocompatibility nonsense).
Also holy hell the First League Precursor is buffed. A free Ecumonopolis? That you can settle immediately? Yes please, just immediately move all consumer goods and alloy production there. Like, even the Cybrex required you to get the restoration tech before you got that free ringworld...
Post by: Egan_BW on December 15, 2018, 12:24:56 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 15, 2018, 12:27:21 pm
woohoo.
Post by: MorleyDev on December 15, 2018, 12:36:24 pm
Speaking of which, taking all bets: What will be next? I know they're itching to rework diplomacy, but maybe they'll surprise us.
Post by: Cruxador on December 15, 2018, 12:44:36 pm
...Why is it the xenophobes who like enslaving aliens again? Still makes more sense the other way round.One imagines it's because slavery is bad and xenophobia is bad so therefore they go together. I don't think there's any deeper reason than that.
Post by: Rolan7 on December 15, 2018, 12:54:31 pm
Oh, and my lack of a slavery run was due to the previous UI tedium, same reason I avoided biological ascension. I'd like to finally try Authoritarian sometime, my friend has a great Hutt run going.
Post by: MorleyDev on December 15, 2018, 12:54:49 pm
Or, for my current run: Da Ork Boyz is the best fightaz in da galaxy. Da Xeno is weak, Da Xeno is small, so Da Xeno do da work for us big boyz.
Post by: Egan_BW on December 15, 2018, 12:58:30 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on December 15, 2018, 01:28:50 pm
Orkz, I'd be sorta tempted to take syncretic evolution? Except all orkz are strong, and grotz are really the same species.
Post by: Trekkin on December 15, 2018, 01:55:34 pm
Orkz, I'd be sorta tempted to take syncretic evolution? Except all orkz are strong, and grotz are really the same species.
It's hard to fit Orks into Stellaris since they're not a single civilization as much as a randomly changing welter of armies, but I could see any given WAAAGH! as Fanatic Militarist Xenophobe Barbaric Despoilers with Warrior Culture.
Post by: Persus13 on December 15, 2018, 02:30:58 pm
...Why is it the xenophobes who like enslaving aliens again? Still makes more sense the other way round.Depends on the type of Xenophobia. Aliens being treated as workhorses with no rights because of their inferiority sounds pretty accurate to Earth politics right now.
Post by: Cruxador on December 15, 2018, 03:21:20 pm
Post by: Digital Hellhound on December 15, 2018, 03:36:26 pm
Post by: umiman on December 15, 2018, 04:06:42 pm
So I guess in game terms they're just all on that level of the ethics scale.
Post by: Criptfeind on December 15, 2018, 04:14:34 pm
Is that better then just taking the planet yourself? And, if it is better, how so? Genuinely interested in knowing, not having played Despoilers, but it seems like in most cases, unless perhaps you are out of influence, if you can steal pops, you can just take the planet yourself.Influence should usually be the limiting factor on what you can take anyway, though.
That's a good point, one would hope this wouldn't be the case, but of course it currently is.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 15, 2018, 04:27:55 pm
Post by: Trekkin on December 15, 2018, 07:18:09 pm
Also in this game, livestock is also considering slavery as well.
So I guess in game terms they're just all on that level of the ethics scale.
Well, the livestock in question is sapient, nerve stapled or not.
Post by: Vgray on December 15, 2018, 08:04:23 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This planet deserves an award or something. Like, "worst place to live 2344". I sense a slave revolt incoming.
Post by: Ultimuh on December 15, 2018, 08:28:55 pm
I sense a slave revolt incoming.You know what to do.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Vgray on December 15, 2018, 08:49:51 pm
Edit: Welcome to freedom Tezhnid!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Now, please sign on the dotted line to join our glorious empire.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Broseph Stalin on December 15, 2018, 11:07:48 pm
I've been known to claim a planet, resettle the pops, and then give it back so it stops screwing with my district limit.
That's a good point, one would hope this wouldn't be the case, but of course it currently is.
Post by: Criptfeind on December 16, 2018, 01:00:28 am
Post by: Vgray on December 16, 2018, 02:20:05 am
Post by: umiman on December 16, 2018, 03:12:13 am
The penalties for empire size are currently pretty darn small, Smaller then it used to be at least. And especially planets, which only really cost empire size if you're using them... Uh. Well, if you resettle to another planet, presumably you have to then build up that planet, thus getting the empire size from that planet instead. And more planets means more pop growth (for some reason) and pop growth is pretty important. I don't see the point in not having as many planets as possible given that. So long as they aren't absolutely terrible low habitability planets.The Empire size penalty is completely ignorable, like before.
The gains from having a super large Empire will easily overwrite the penalties. Research and unity start off absurdly slow but by the mid game you will blitz through it no matter what.
I had a research penalty rate of over 500% at one point in the mid game and I was still getting tech every quarter. Didn't even build any research buildings as a hive mind. I actually forgot I had research buildings until the late game where I was trying to find jobs for my pops and had way too much of so the resources.
Post by: Telgin on December 16, 2018, 01:18:22 pm
I think the balance patch helps, since it reduces the number of jobs the upgraded buildings give, but it also really screwed up my ongoing game because I had to shuffle pops around.
Post by: Paul on December 16, 2018, 04:02:09 pm
Thrifty is key, though. It's 25% trade bonus, and unlike all other bonuses it's multiplicative with others. For example, say you have fanatic xenophile (+20% trade) and 10% bonus from stability and +10% bonus from the diplomacy tradition. So a trader gives you 2*1.4=2.8. Throw in Thrifty, and you get 2*1.25*1.4=3.5.
Even if you aren't focusing on trade, the extra 25% trade production on jobs is really nice. Thrifty is a really good trait.
The way this works make traits like Intelligent kind of sucky in comparison long-term. It's a 10% bonus that just gets added in to other bonuses instead of multiplied. And there is like +70% bonuses available from traits and the + research techs. I have an Intelligent worker in a lab next to one who isn't Intelligent and they're producing 7.6 and 7.2.
With Thrifty and some + trade bonuses you can do silly stuff like turning a world into nothing but city districts and commerce megaplexes and pulling in 1100+ trade value. That's only really viable on the capital area, though - can you imagine trying to manage piracy on trade routes that had a bunch of 1100+ trade value worlds? You would have to have huge war fleets doing patrols.
Using ringworlds as trade worlds is actually pretty good. I've heard people say they were useless, but if you fill them up with commerce megaplexes and city districts and farms you can produce a huge surplus of food and energy and consumer goods, then focus all your other worlds on producing minerals and alloys and the rare resources. But you would want to make sure any ringworld for this purpose is built within 6 jumps of your capital starbase to avoid piracy.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 17, 2018, 01:37:28 am
Remember, per worker clerks suck. But 5 clerks is 10 amenities and 10 trade value. That's 10 energy, or 5 energy/2.5 consumer goods, or 5 energy/1.25 unity. Compare to a hydroponics bay, which gives 12 food and only employs 2 pops.
The other key is that if you upgrade them they give you a merchant.
Edit: Oh, also, BIG tip for trade focused empires. No colony within 6 jumps of your capital should have an upgraded starbase if you can avoid it. If you put 6 trade hubs on your capital's station, none of that trade needs to be protected. Then just put all your trade value in those core worlds.
Post by: melkor on December 17, 2018, 04:19:13 am
for instance i get -25% consumer goods production and +80% food production from empire modifier.
the -25% i finally found at the economy law but the 80% extra food from empire is a mystery to me.
Post by: Shooer on December 17, 2018, 05:04:03 am
It seems the AI really has a trouble with slave revolts. Like, really bad. Three empires have lost 3-4 systems each in my current game.
The funniest one was taken over by a species they added clone to their name. Thing is they are nerve stapled. So their leaders are nerve stapled clones of a work horse/army species. I see them going far.
Post by: Digital Hellhound on December 17, 2018, 05:09:51 am
Post by: melkor on December 17, 2018, 07:35:53 am
Big shiny button of your flag on the top left will bring up your government screen. Includes empire effects.
that screen only tells me where 20% of the 80% empire modifier comes from but the other 60% is still unknown.
is there a screen where there is a list of all resources and all the modifiers that effect those resources?
Post by: Whivy on December 17, 2018, 08:38:53 am
Would be nice to have bonuses link to the population, maybe by building infrastructures that needs a lot of workers to be efficient but giving bonuses to thing like, for example, a orbital Drydock, giving ship building bonuses to the system's shipyards. Would make sense, with the extra manpower and potentials crew you can field.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 17, 2018, 09:35:09 am
With techs and traits you could drive that a lot higher. Put a stock exchange on the planet and you'd probably be closer to 400 trade value.
Energy districts are trickier because it depends entirely on luck, finding a planet with enough district capacity to make it worthwhile while an 'urban trade world' can be built literally anywhere so long as you can protect the trade. Larger worlds would be even more productive. Imagine 4 size 50 ringworld segments dedicated to trade, assuming you could feed the population.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 17, 2018, 09:35:49 am
Does someone know if a heavy populated planet with massive trade value is more worth than a full 10 district generator planet ? Because right now I don't really see the benefit of an "urban world" meaning mostly city district to house a lot of population. And since the supermarket is, at beginning, one of the building with the most jobs slots, seems like a heavily populated planet only interest is going full trade value. I didn't find any other advantage at having a lot of population on a world, did you ?
more people to fill more research jobs. you just build more and more labs. especially on a planet with a research bonus (like wild storms)
(or alloy forges, or whatever)
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 17, 2018, 09:39:00 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 17, 2018, 09:46:44 am
but the UI for all the new planet stuff is beyond atrocious. it really blows my mind how bad they made it all. and i get little phantom windows opening and closing whenever i close some of the new UIs.
also, is it normal that the game runs about 1/3 to 1/2 slower than before? even on day 1? jesus.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 17, 2018, 10:12:41 am
The 'ghost window' is from the UI window snapping to the center of the screen on close for one frame before hiding itself. I don't know why they can't make it remember where you put it, or hide it before moving it.
Post by: Whivy on December 17, 2018, 10:30:57 am
Post by: Telgin on December 17, 2018, 11:10:25 am
Anyway, I'll agree that the planetary UI is really, really confusing at first. It progresses to being mildly confusing as you get used to it, but I do think that some things like the terraforming button could have been made way more obvious. The job window can also be kind of a disaster on smaller screens if you have lots of pops, since the output indicators can get badly mushed together. The planet's overall output and its accompany tooltip are also so cluttered as to be almost useless.
Still, despite the issues I've put like 30 hours into the game over the last week, and plan to put more in once I get home this afternoon.
Post by: Rolan7 on December 17, 2018, 11:52:58 am
I've recently started experimenting with overproducing consumer goods and setting my pops to social welfare then maintaining a large unemployed population. Unemployed pops produce unity on social welfare so its been a nice unity boost to get a few specific traditions early, then I ship them off to colonies to work.I like that bonus too, but if you want to do it intentionally, you really want Utopian Abundance from Egalitarian so they're making research as well.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 17, 2018, 12:35:37 pm
I do have some eco complaints tho. Orbital research is really inconsequential relative to planetary research, its still worth getting but I'd honestly prefer if there was some decision making involved with orbital research. Since its now the only manual way to specialize research beyond pop traits*. On the other hand planetary special resource harvesting is in an odd place right now. Since the harvesters are identical to the synthesizers aside from inputs, your mote trap isn't REALLY making 2 motes, its producing 20 minerals. Which is... great, true, but not what you'd intuitively expect resource deposits to do. I'd prefer if synthetic production was either less space efficient but also less costly, or if there was a universal resource harvestor that would just grab everything.
Alternately, it would be cool to have special resources that can only be harvested by having enough of a specific district. So the 3 uncommon resources could be gained by mining districts, and then maybe there could be bonus food/pop growth/happiness resources gained from agriculture, and tech bonuses from generators. So like you'd go to a planet and it would have like, I don't know, "electric volcanoes: +5 physics research". And your first generator district would just produce a volcanologist job in addition to what it normally does. Would make planets a little more special. Only question would be if there's more than one resource how do you decide which order they're assigned to districts, without cluttering the interface. Maybe the job could just be there and you don't need to do anything to access it.
*although I think the devs have consciously made society research the only one that can be boosted easily, because it has no techs that improve ship military power
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 17, 2018, 12:41:33 pm
Since its now the only manual way to specialize research beyond pop traits*.
they need to get rid of the generic research labs building and replace it with specific ones the grant specific jobs, for exactly that reason
Post by: Paul on December 17, 2018, 01:02:10 pm
As an example a 20 hab world on the usual living standards the clerk uses .45 consumer goods 1.8 food 1.8 amenities. Factor in the cost of all that and the upkeep on the building and he's losing money. But on a 0.8 world he only uses .3 consumer goods and 1.2 food and amenities.
In short, the per pop production is greater on technicians - so they're better on lower hab worlds and early on when every pop is valuable. Once you have extra pops and on high hab worlds you can crank up clerks and make a good profit with them.
Spamming clerks still kind of sucks once you start to get the + technician and + worker bonuses, since clerks don't come with a + trade tech and none of the production bonuses work on their trade generation except thrifty. Clerks are only good long term if you have thrifty pops working them or some good + trade bonuses.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 17, 2018, 01:30:56 pm
But we had that and it was cancer. Maybe it could be done with the policy menu, something like -10% to 2, +15% to 1.Since its now the only manual way to specialize research beyond pop traits*.
they need to get rid of the generic research labs building and replace it with specific ones the grant specific jobs, for exactly that reason
Re: clerks vs technicians, that's not even a contest in the longterm. Cityworlds are OP, with two housing districts and a recreation district you can support 3 upgraded commerce buildings and (once you get the pop up with other districts) a galactic stock exchange, which is... 120 credits. From 4 building slots and 3 districts. And as long as its in your geographic core that trade will need 0 protection. To get the same effect with a generator planet you would need, I think... 9 districts and one building slot. Plus unless your planet is huge you're effectively "spending" 5-10 building slots with that setup.
Maybe in more of a competitive/MP setting where everyone tries to snowball with conquest and build wide, quick and dirty generator planets is the way to go. But if you're just trying to optimize your empire for fun or build tall, technicians fall off hard. Farming is fine because hydroponics bays + farming districts allows you to get a lot of mileage out of food processing plants, and mineral planets make sense because city worlds can process minerals without having to spend building slots. But technicians fill a weak niche in a city planet economy. Stronger earlier, sure, but clerks still have their place on non-generator worlds in the earlygame (namely to provide a counterbalance to the <5 employment most buildings provide, and because you need amenities anyway).
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 17, 2018, 01:37:59 pm
Also, I figured out how to move specific pops off of captured planets.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 17, 2018, 01:43:36 pm
But we had that and it was cancer.Since its now the only manual way to specialize research beyond pop traits*.
they need to get rid of the generic research labs building and replace it with specific ones the grant specific jobs, for exactly that reason
no, we didn't. at most it was stuff that primarily did something else (gene clinic, planetary shield generator), and the generic research labs were always there too.
Quote
Maybe it could be done with the policy menu, something like -10% to 2, +15% to 1.
ironically this did exact for a while, and it sucked.
Post by: Telgin on December 17, 2018, 01:48:09 pm
On another subject, does anyone fully understand trade routes and piracy yet? I thought I did, but clearly not. My home system star base has at least one trade module (I'm at work and can't check it), with two star bases 2 jumps away that also have trade modules. All three star bases also have gun modules. Yet, despite this, I'm getting pirate spawns one jump away from my home system's star base, which doesn't make sense. I previously thought you had to have trade protection on top of collection radius, but three overlapping star bases with protection should keep the piracy down. Now I'm reading that if a system is within the collection radius of a base, you don't need protection at all. And yet three overlapping star bases' protection radius is still producing pirates.
Is this bugged or am I still misunderstanding how it works? If it matters, the systems spawning pirates don't actually have trade value in them and are just part of a trade route. But one jump in any direction leads to a star base with guns and trade modules.
Post by: MorleyDev on December 17, 2018, 01:51:30 pm
A gun module will only provide 1 jump protecting 5 trade value. A hanger is 1 jump protecting 10 trade value.
I once had a world with a stupidly high trade value and it was getting pirated because the fully decked out defence star bases couldn't cover enough of it. Had to add an extra hanger-only station in between just to cover that route.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 17, 2018, 01:52:16 pm
What does require protection is trade lanes, AKA a starbase is collecting trade value from a couple neighboring systems, then that trade value is being collected from that collection base to your homeworld. The goods being moved FROM the collection point TO your homeworld are what get pirated. Any system along THAT route in susceptible to piracy.
That said, I always just build starbases along my trade routes. There can be no piracy in a system if there is an upgraded starbase of any kind. So I just build all my anchorages along those lines.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 17, 2018, 01:57:16 pm
I guess space deposits sort of matter, because in the extreme earlygame if you find 10 physics in neighboring systems that can be a huge spike (+33% I believe). But again in the long term those are going to come out about average. Ditto for the titanic lifeforms society research.
Edit: In edition to what Dunamisdeos said, if a starbase is in a system only it will collect from that system. This doesn't really matter unless its within your homeworld's collection range, as all that trade is collected with no need for protection. The trade collection range of a station is the number of trade hubs on it, so potentially 6 per starbase. Also small ships are better for patrolling, hangars on starbases are really good (and protect at long range), and the max piracy value of a system is simply the amount of trade passing through it. Finally, all pops produce trade value based on their social status (and possibly happiness?), so expect any populous world to become a trade hub eventually.
Post by: Rolan7 on December 17, 2018, 02:07:44 pm
Are you clicking the new trade route mapmode? It shows the actual routes.
Your capital starbase won't generate any piracy ever, and its collection radius seems to have priority over other starbases - EXCEPT in their systems! If your capital is collecting from some core world, but you build a starbase in that core system, it'll take priority and start a potentially heavy (though short) trade route. Anyway, I can't stress this enough, you generally want to fill your capital starbase with trade posts since each one increases that radius of free collection.
For protection, you want to stack hangers. They provide twice as much protection as guns, and each weapon increases the *protection* range by one just like a trade post increases *collection* by one. This is why I suggest dedicating starbases to protection OR collection, to maximize ranges on all.
For a system to be safe, you need to stack protection on it equal to the total trade value moving through it. This means core worlds can require a lot of protection, since multiple distant trade routes might be meeting each other near your capital. The solution is several overlapping hangar-starbases (preferably placed in systems which aren't generating trade, so they don't steal from the capital and contribute to the routes!). Leaving or patrolling a few corvettes can also help, if the hot spot is small enough. Generally though, I'd try not to produce too much trade in distant systems - minimize the need for protection.
Post by: Telgin on December 17, 2018, 02:21:46 pm
Your capital starbase won't generate any piracy ever, and its collection radius seems to have priority over other starbases - EXCEPT in their systems!
This is the problem I'm having, I think. I have two systems two jumps away from my home system with colonies, and I built trade posts there thinking they were necessary to collect the trade value from those worlds. This ended up nullifying the collection from my home system star base, which I'm pretty sure has two trade modules, and ended up creating trade routes back to that system that converged in an unoccupied system, creating a huge amount of flowing trade and thus maximum piracy.
Kind of amusing to think that if I delete those star bases, the piracy will go away. I'll have to test that when I get home.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 17, 2018, 02:24:38 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 17, 2018, 02:25:19 pm
I'm talking about the original research labs that upgraded into versions that would produce more of one or the other. It was pointlessly micro intensive and it didn't matter because tech is a global resource and unlike the other global resources, you get no feedback when you run low. So it was just... not rewarding or interesting. There's little point to any tech modifiers that are local because they add up to either a lot of work for little effort, or forcing the player to do a bunch of mental math to achieve balanced research (which is broadly better than specialized because of how tech cost works).
I guess space deposits sort of matter, because in the extreme earlygame if you find 10 physics in neighboring systems that can be a huge spike (+33% I believe). But again in the long term those are going to come out about average. Ditto for the titanic lifeforms society research.
Edit: In edition to what Dunamisdeos said, if a starbase is in a system only it will collect from that system. This doesn't really matter unless its within your homeworld's collection range, as all that trade is collected with no need for protection. The trade collection range of a station is the number of trade hubs on it, so potentially 6 per starbase. Also small ships are better for patrolling, hangars on starbases are really good (and protect at long range), and the max piracy value of a system is simply the amount of trade passing through it. Finally, all pops produce trade value based on their social status (and possibly happiness?), so expect any populous world to become a trade hub eventually.
gotcha. yeah, definitely not like that with the upgrade paths. more things that were like the buildings i mentioned, but a greater variety, and more tie-ins to research projects (like an actual zoo building with society research and amenity jobs that unlocks when you finish the specimen collection quest for example.)
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 17, 2018, 06:01:52 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 17, 2018, 06:06:39 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
If this works out well I may do another try at a forum LP.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 17, 2018, 06:30:14 pm
Okay. My new start with 'bigger colonies', 'planet view + 36 building slots' and 'crowded world' as UNE looks promising.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
If this works out well I may do another try at a forum LP.
this is already looking a lot better than the normal UI. keep it up.
Post by: Cruxador on December 17, 2018, 06:33:21 pm
In theory I think you could use trade protection fleets as sort of a "levy"; in wartime send them out and just accept the trade value loss. In practice... AFAIK they only protect one system and I've always had somewhere else I'd rather put my ships. If you do go that route corvettes are not only cheaper but provide more protection than larger hulls.I think corvettes are mostly better for combat as well.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 17, 2018, 06:34:18 pm
Yeah that's fair. So if you spam monuments and gene clinics you get a bunch of society research, if you spam some other thing that doesn't exist yet you get engineering research. Makes sense.
ideally it would depend less on spamming buildings generally and more on things like, say, choosing to upgrade Alloy Forges into experimental metallurgy plants that don't produce (more) alloys but produce engineering research, or choosing to upgrade them into megaforges (as now)
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 17, 2018, 06:42:27 pm
Like a food processing plant that also grants society research.
I'm also thinking of doing planetary decisions similar to the 'resort world' and 'penal world' that allow you to designate a world as a 'brain trust' for a science bonus and follow-on events that let you establish a research center dedicated to one of the science types.
Post by: Telgin on December 17, 2018, 06:54:45 pm
Yeah that's fair. So if you spam monuments and gene clinics you get a bunch of society research, if you spam some other thing that doesn't exist yet you get engineering research. Makes sense.
ideally it would depend less on spamming buildings generally and more on things like, say, choosing to upgrade Alloy Forges into experimental metallurgy plants that don't produce (more) alloys but produce engineering research, or choosing to upgrade them into megaforges (as now)
I like this idea a lot. Meaningful choices there.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 17, 2018, 07:00:04 pm
Yeah that's fair. So if you spam monuments and gene clinics you get a bunch of society research, if you spam some other thing that doesn't exist yet you get engineering research. Makes sense.
ideally it would depend less on spamming buildings generally and more on things like, say, choosing to upgrade Alloy Forges into experimental metallurgy plants that don't produce (more) alloys but produce engineering research, or choosing to upgrade them into megaforges (as now)
I like this idea a lot. Meaningful choices there.
That's a really good idea, I agree. But then you'd have to rework quite a bit. As it is I can't really spare my alloy/consumer goods factories for anything extra, often quite late into the game.
To be fair society research has always had an extra bias, with things like observation posts and the like. I always justified it to myself by thinking about how they've sort of combined biological/societal/governmental concepts into a single tree. Naturally there are more sources of research income because of the diversity of "society" research. You'd almost have to create a 4th type of research to fully compensate.
Post by: Orb on December 18, 2018, 01:06:15 am
Post by: Telgin on December 18, 2018, 09:13:14 am
The only consolation is that the crisis finally triggered in 2480 and they can't actually win until it's over. I'm tempted to let the Prethoryn Scourge eat them so I'll win anyway.
In seriousness though, I'm just happy to see the Scourge since this is my first time with them. I'm not really sure what to expect, but I'd built my fleet up to counter the Contingency and I'm worried that a shield heavy fleet isn't going to fare well. I've got about 600K fleet power with ~15 levels of repeatable military techs of every relevant kind, and the crisis difficulty is 2.5x. I'm fairly sure I'll be okay, although the Scourge hit the galaxy in a spot where two hostile empires are currently preventing me from responding to it, so it might spread a lot before I can engage it, and unlike the Contingency, I'm led to believe that can make the Scourge substantially stronger.
Edit: I'm also unsure if I should bother with titans. I left enough unused command limit in each fleet to add a titan, but my experience with the Contingency is that they don't last long enough to be worth it. The Unbidden were a different story though, and I don't think I lost a single ship beating them back. So... maybe they work for the Scourge?
Post by: Imic on December 19, 2018, 03:18:47 am
Should I get any of the dlc? Its a bit of an extra pileup in the monetary sense, and I was thinking of maybe skipping them, but Id like some outside people making suggestions.
Post by: Shooer on December 19, 2018, 04:11:40 am
If you want to play as robots with a uniqueish experience get Synthetic Dawn. I like it cause robots. The removal of some challenges is replaces with others becoming harder/more pronounced. Maybe not a great choice to go with a first purchase.
Leviathans is great if you liked being the guy to get to take down the Guardian of Orion and reaping the rewards. Except there are half a dozen of them and some may or may not roam around being a mobile hazard. Also builds out some of the "history" of the galaxy by adding minor factions to buy bonuses or gain story info from.
Distant Stars adds some new exploration stuff and a kind'a majorish thingy to the galaxy. I would grab this after playing a bit, since it was designed to put more into the game to flesh it out for people playing it a lot already.
Apocalypses builds out the military end. Planet killers and a new larger ship class. I'd lump this in with Distant starts and Synthetic dawn as something to grab to add to the experience but not something to grab right away.
Post by: Imic on December 19, 2018, 06:36:44 am
Post by: Telgin on December 19, 2018, 09:22:09 am
Post by: Paul on December 19, 2018, 11:24:54 am
Only get synthetic dawn if you want to play robot empires. And they kind of suck right now. Distant Stars adds some leviathans already and lots of cool events and L gates. Leviathans adds a bunch of boss monsters and the enclaves which are nice but not necessary.
Utopia is nigh essential imo. It adds mega structures and ascension paths that are a lot of fun late game and give way more ways to build your empire out after the planets are full. Also adds hive and anti-social players like fanatic purifiers I think? Or did those get added as base game now?
And apocalypse adds stuff to the mid game (mid game threat of the khan) and really late game stuff. It adds stuff to spend unity on after you've maxed traditions out and super weapons to develop to blow up planets. It also lets you access the special starts like starting on a tomb world and play as barbarian raiders kidnapping people.
Post by: Cruxador on December 19, 2018, 01:58:16 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 19, 2018, 02:21:49 pm
But yeah man play a regular game first.
Post by: Paul on December 19, 2018, 02:32:32 pm
Post by: Telgin on December 20, 2018, 10:25:06 am
Also kind of annoying since this is the first time I've seen the Scourge, and I'm pretty sure they're much scarier once they gain access to planets.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 20, 2018, 01:31:02 pm
I like this part:
* The chance of criminal Branch Offices getting shut down has been reduced slightly, and the cooldown between shutdown events has been reduced to 10 years
* At least one year with little or no crime must pass for a colony's criminal Branch Office to potentially get shut down (increased from one day)
Post by: MorleyDev on December 20, 2018, 01:38:41 pm
Quote
Made tweaks to Galactic Market that should prevent an infinite profits exploit from flooding the market, then rebuying, you shameless tophat-wearing capitalist exploiters, you
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
...yeah, I totally abused this a couple of times xD
Post by: Telgin on December 20, 2018, 01:54:58 pm
Post by: Paul on December 20, 2018, 02:22:45 pm
What they need to do is make the total price adjust based on how much you're buying or selling, so like 1000 might be 2000 selling at 2 each but 10000 might get 15500 because for each thousand it's 2, 1.9, 1.8, 1.7, 1.6, 1.5, 1.4, 1.3, 1
2, and 1.1. If they did that they could cut the market fee way down and using the market wouldn't be so punitive early on or exploitable later on.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 20, 2018, 07:13:20 pm
"Added a check so that servitude robots cannot become criminals. We'll miss you, serial killer auto assembly claw."
Spoiler: Warning: Graphic (click to show/hide)
Post by: Paul on December 20, 2018, 10:07:29 pm
Also it looks like the Steam sale is on with Stellaris getting 75% off and the DLC (except Megacorp) getting 50% off. Plus the starter pack, which includes the best two DLC imho, is an extra $3 off. Not a bad deal.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 21, 2018, 03:00:42 pm
"Added a check so that servitude robots cannot become criminals. We'll miss you, serial killer auto assembly claw."Spoiler: Warning: Graphic (click to show/hide)
Hooray for the terrifying robot injury stellaris derail.
Post by: Zangi on December 21, 2018, 06:55:10 pm
Some dinky 1 planet subject near me gets to host galaxy market. Console command play dinky 1 planet subject to see why the hell they get to be host. They have only 7 trade value.
wtf is this
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 21, 2018, 06:58:46 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 21, 2018, 07:06:12 pm
That's the only instance of degloving I've ever heard done with a vacuum, most of the ones I've seen were from people who wore rings/watches whilst working on ships with plenty of powerful mechanisms to deglove with. Losing your skin is moderately more preferable to having it peel from the bone
Hooray for the terrifying robot injury stellaris derail.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 21, 2018, 07:39:54 pm
That's the only instance of degloving I've ever heard done with a vacuum, most of the ones I've seen were from people who wore rings/watches whilst working on ships with plenty of powerful mechanisms to deglove with. Losing your skin is moderately more preferable to having it peel from the bone
Hooray for the terrifying robot injury stellaris derail.
Yeah that was the example quoted to us as the most likely one we would end up seeing. I ended up not joining the EMT ranks, it been basically used like an advanced first-aid class since.
Post by: E. Albright on December 21, 2018, 10:05:26 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 21, 2018, 10:33:26 pm
Anyone ever have a situation where there's a fleet that no units will attack? I currently am at war with a fanatical purifier who's ran a fleet of 15 corvettes (<1k power) through three fleets (two allied, one of mine) at ~1.5k each, and a starbase with three platforms at ~1.5k... and the ships on my side literally never fired a shot. They just flew into point blank range - which opened the combat dialogue, which reported 0 damage dealt - and then sat there while the 15 (starting tech) corvettes circled and annihilated them. Exiting and reloading finally made ships on my side start responding, but that was absurd and not something I wanna see regularly...I saw that happen once. But IIRC, fixing it didn't involve reloading. I can't recollect what I did, though.
Post by: E. Albright on December 21, 2018, 10:58:42 pm
Post by: acidia on December 22, 2018, 10:45:04 am
Post by: Telgin on December 22, 2018, 04:39:22 pm
Supposedly it's got something to do with enemy fleets using emergency FTL but having no system they can return to safely. I'm not sure that's what triggered it the time I saw it though, since I've never completely conquered an enemy empire and they should have had somewhere to retreat to.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 22, 2018, 10:15:22 pm
QuoteMade tweaks to Galactic Market that should prevent an infinite profits exploit from flooding the market, then rebuying, you shameless tophat-wearing capitalist exploiters, you
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
...yeah, I totally abused this a couple of times xD
it's really pathetic that this was ever in there. this is some 1970s Lemonade Stand shit.
Post by: E. Albright on December 23, 2018, 01:38:36 am
Post by: Rolan7 on December 23, 2018, 02:44:40 am
Edit: Beta patch notes (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/dev-team-stellaris_test-beta-branch-updated-to-2-2-3-with-many-new-fixes-checksum-1960.1140823/&utm_source=launch-steam&utm_medium=launcher&utm_content=post&utm_campaign=stellaris_stellaris_20181221_pla_dd)
Quote
* Set minimum market fee to 5%"Removed bulk discount"... interesting way of phrasing that. Unless I missed a version, it was previously "flat price" not "discount". Which was essentially just as broken, just interesting phrasing.
* Removed bulk discount on Internal and Galactic Market
Quote
* Fixed literally unplayable typos and grammatical/formatting errorsHeh, I haven't visited the /vg/ thread so much recently, but I think the "literally unplayable" is poking fun at /vg/'s histrionics over a TODO left in the German Language translation a few months ago. If you think this thread gets rough on Paradox, ever, well... the bar's in a totally different place on 4chan.
Of course, they act without sense as a matter of cultural pride. It is a good pain.
Post by: umiman on December 23, 2018, 03:17:46 am
Edit: Beta patch notes (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/dev-team-stellaris_test-beta-branch-updated-to-2-2-3-with-many-new-fixes-checksum-1960.1140823/&utm_source=launch-steam&utm_medium=launcher&utm_content=post&utm_campaign=stellaris_stellaris_20181221_pla_dd)Lol, what a load of shit.Quote* Set minimum market fee to 5%
* Removed bulk discount on Internal and Galactic Market
"bulk discount" = too lazy to code it so when you bought a large amount it increased the price accordingly
Post by: Zangi on December 23, 2018, 08:13:38 am
Post by: MorleyDev on December 24, 2018, 01:45:22 pm
A Psionic Scientist means Psionic Theory can spawn regardless of ethics.
Psionic Theory means you can pick Mind over Matter and Transcendence.
...Suddenly getting Fanatic Materialist Psychics is very easy.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 24, 2018, 02:52:06 pm
Racket Caraveneers are guaranteed Psionics.
A Psionic Scientist means Psionic Theory can spawn regardless of ethics.
Psionic Theory means you can pick Mind over Matter and Transcendence.
...Suddenly getting Fanatic Materialist Psychics is very easy.
Oh geez. I knew about the psionic scientist guarantee, but never made the connection. I play spiritualists often, you see.
Post by: Telgin on December 24, 2018, 03:54:52 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 24, 2018, 04:34:21 pm
Besides, mid-late game there are plenty of ways to counter it.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 25, 2018, 08:56:40 am
Racket Caravaneers visited and had a party, resulting in a human/racket hybrid pop who was psychic. I encouraged them to breed and eventually got a scientist from them.
Post by: MorleyDev on December 27, 2018, 07:39:01 am
...well, there was a moments hope at least. I rushed in to try and take them out quickly and got an L-Gate out of it at least, since my empire didn't spawn near any.
*sigh* Time to focus on building all the Gigastructures (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1121692237) whilst the galaxy burns, I guess. Wonder if I can get my Alloy output high enough to build the Behemoth Planetcraft before they make it to me...
What, that Psychic Hypersiphon I built? Look, I'm sure it has nothing to do with the invading creatures from the Warp. I mean Wroud. I mean Shwarp. Shroud. Absolutely nothing at all.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 27, 2018, 08:33:49 am
Post by: Ivefan on December 27, 2018, 09:56:56 am
So I have discovered that Thrall worlds are awesome. My xenophobe empire now conquers enemy planets, bulldozes all of their accomplishments, converts it into a thrall world and enslaves them for eternity.
that sounds just like what i wanted to do last round before this DLC
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 27, 2018, 11:12:42 am
Either way I have stepped up my military presence on thrall worlds to at minimum 6 soldier jobs so that I have plenty of defense armies in case of revolt.
Post by: acidia on December 27, 2018, 01:03:54 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 27, 2018, 02:37:32 pm
Post by: Telgin on December 27, 2018, 02:45:12 pm
Spoiler: Want to play safe? (click to show/hide)
Post by: BurnedToast on December 27, 2018, 02:47:45 pm
I assumed when you ran out of minerals, your alloy forges couldn't produce any alloy. That makes sense, right? You put minerals in, you get alloys out. But that's wrong - alloy forges magically produce alloy from nothing, and the minerals are just upkeep for the building.
See it turns out if you run out of minerals - the penalty is just 50% reduction in alloy (and consumer good) output. So, you can see where this is going - just build tons of alloy forges and they will run at 50% with no input, magically generating high price alloys for you from nothing. But it gets better, because the 50% penalty is additive - so let's say you manage to get +50% production, it would only effectively be a 33% penalty. The higher your production bonus, the lower the penalty.
But wait - it gets better! All you have to do is buy 100 minerals on the market at the end of every month, and the game won't realize you've run out, and your alloy foundries will run at 100% capacity off those 100 minerals no matter how many you have. Which means minerals and mines are optional. You never, ever need to build a single mine - or anything except alloy foundries. Carpet every planet with them, dump the high price alloys on the market and buy all the food you need. If you need to make buildings, pause - buy minerals - spend minerals.
I can't actually take credit for this idea - I actually considered it, but I thought there's no way the system could possibly be that stupid so I never tested it. But I read about it on a forum somewhere and sure enough, it really is that stupid. I'm not even 100% sure this is an exploit, since every part of the system is working as intended. It's just really poorly designed.
Post by: Telgin on December 27, 2018, 03:05:42 pm
Not sure how to fix the exploit of only buying up just enough minerals to have more than 0 per month though. You'd almost have to have it do the upkeep calculations per day instead of per month or something, which would only make it more annoying to exploit. Or have production penalties if your balance would turn negative at the end of the month, but that's kind of overly punitive.
The funny thing about it is that it makes me wonder even more how the AI messes up so badly. Supposedly the AI even cheats energy credits now if it runs out and has negative energy income, independent of difficulty levels.
Post by: E. Albright on December 27, 2018, 03:38:08 pm
There is a not insignificant chance your friend will regret it. However, good things can happen too, so your friend may want to roll the dice.
Can you tell if the dice roll turned up something bad immediately? My friend plays on Ironman, but is a slimy savescummer, and random-outcome projects and other things where you can precisely predict when the outcome will happen are the sort of thing you can savescum on Ironman. Uh, or so I'm told.
Post by: Telgin on December 27, 2018, 03:40:22 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 27, 2018, 04:06:30 pm
Carpet every planet with them, dump the high price alloys on the market and buy all the food you need.I suspect you can do the same thing with food - buy 100 each month and never care for farms any more.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 27, 2018, 04:41:37 pm
What's production output from the thrall world vs size? I've never gone out of my way to make one because taking it for my main pop species always seemed more efficient.It's not bad actually. I'll see if I can get a screenshot and some hard info later when I can load my game up. The way thrall worlds work is all enslaved pops are given a job as a 'toiler' if no other jobs are available. Toilers take no upkeep beyond food and produce amenities. You can build very cheap 'slave huts' to gain housing for the slaves, and you can make 'overseer housing' to create overseer jobs. Overseers employ slave pops and reduce crime by quite a lot, so the slaves effectively police themselves. Beyond toilers and overseers, slave pops will work any jobs available to a slave (generally worker stratum jobs and some specialist jobs). You have to be careful to keep enough toilers to have enough amenities to keep the pops happy.
Install a few of your superior species as the rulers/administrators to keep order and keep some soldiers on hand and you're golden.
Post by: Egan_BW on December 27, 2018, 04:49:28 pm
My friend plays on Ironman, but is a slimy savescummer
why
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 27, 2018, 04:52:53 pm
Don't be judging. I have a friend like that.My friend plays on Ironman, but is a slimy savescummer
why
Post by: Teneb on December 27, 2018, 06:34:44 pm
It sorta defeats the whole point. Unless they want achievements but would rather not muck about with the achievement unlocker program.Don't be judging. I have a friend like that.My friend plays on Ironman, but is a slimy savescummer
why
The reason why I play Ironman is because otherwise I spend just too much time savescumming.
Post by: Telgin on December 27, 2018, 06:46:17 pm
I'd probably have more instances if I played on harder difficulties.
Post by: BurnedToast on December 27, 2018, 07:45:29 pm
Carpet every planet with them, dump the high price alloys on the market and buy all the food you need.I suspect you can do the same thing with food - buy 100 each month and never care for farms any more.
I didn't think about that, but you're probably right. I bet it works with everything.
Unfortunately it does not seem to work with monthly orders. It seems to auto-buy them, then notice it's still not enough and gives the appropriate penalty. So I guess that somewhat limits the abuse due to it being incredibly tedious manually buying +100/month. Otherwise you could auto-buy +1 of everything and never worry about anything.
Post by: E. Albright on December 27, 2018, 08:06:45 pm
It sorta defeats the whole point. Unless they want achievements but would rather not muck about with the achievement unlocker program.
The reason why I play Ironman is because otherwise I spend just too much time savescumming.
It's somewhat the former and somewhat the latter. Achievements are nice because they push you to try things other than maximal min-max, but some of the random things that certain events can drop on you are... annoying. However, there's very strict limits on how practical it is to savescum on Ironman, so it gives a small amount of pain mitigation while also avoiding the temptation to constantly savescum.
Spoiler: The wages of sin (click to show/hide)
Post by: Mini on December 28, 2018, 12:20:47 am
IIRC it's determined when the game starts, so you'd have to play until the gates are opened and then restart if you wanted to force a particular outcome.There is a not insignificant chance your friend will regret it. However, good things can happen too, so your friend may want to roll the dice.
Can you tell if the dice roll turned up something bad immediately? My friend plays on Ironman, but is a slimy savescummer, and random-outcome projects and other things where you can precisely predict when the outcome will happen are the sort of thing you can savescum on Ironman. Uh, or so I'm told.
Post by: Culise on December 28, 2018, 01:10:11 am
50 weight: Nanite Crisis (set global flags "gray_goo_crisis_set" and "active_gray_goo")
30 weight: Dragon Leviathan (set global flag "dragon_season")
30 weight: Nanite Empire (set global flag "gray_goo_empire_set")
30 weight: Abandoned Cluster (set no relevant global flags)
Opening a savefile is a matter of going to the save directory, opening the save file in something like 7zip or WinRAR, and opening the gamestate file in a text editor. That said, I've never tried to force a particular L-Cluster outcome, so I've never tried verifying it. Most games, I don't even end up with an L-Gate in my territory.
EDIT:
Also, since we're talking Ironman, I'd think you can open it without altering anything the game can check, but editing the global flag would likely be a bit more problematic. I don't play Ironman either, so I can't be of particular help on that front either. My apologies.
EDIT EDIT:
Also also, worth noting though it's likely obvious: the L-Gate cluster and contents are spawned when you crack open your first L-Gate, if I'm reading the events right (distar.11000, triggered by distar.10950, triggered by the project LCLUSTER_PROJECT). After the first empire finishes the project to open the L-Gates, it's too late to change it.
Post by: Cruxador on December 28, 2018, 01:21:16 am
Post by: Culise on December 28, 2018, 01:28:19 am
Ironman files are compressed, you can't open them and get anything meaningful. At least not without hacking the game's compression algorithm, which seems disproportionate.I see. I suppose that my post is indeed worthless for Albright's friend, then. C'est la vie. ^_^
Post by: E. Albright on December 28, 2018, 02:28:50 am
Post by: Cruxador on December 28, 2018, 02:51:00 am
I'll add as a datapoint that I'm pretty sure the L-Cluster was only generated after I cracked a gate simply based on the performance hit my game took as soon as the NE started shuffling their 50k warfleets from one end of the cluster and back, over and over and over.That doesn't necessarily mean that the contents were only determined at that point, only that that's when their behavior was activated.
Post by: se5a on December 28, 2018, 06:19:13 am
not finished my first game, but I've gotten bogged down a bit with the colony stuff. it feels kinda boring and distrcting from the game, which is a shame, since I read that it'd been recently changed in a patch to make it more interesting and engaging, not sure what it was like before, but the constant unhappiness from unemployment is just meh, especially when it's so restricted in what you can do to improve it. maybe I'm missing something, but it feels like a poorly designed puzzle game where you have to calculate what building will get the correct amount of housing vs jobs... or something. idk it didn't make a whole lot of sense.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 28, 2018, 07:29:42 am
I'll add as a datapoint that I'm pretty sure the L-Cluster was only generated after I cracked a gate simply based on the performance hit my game took as soon as the NE started shuffling their 50k warfleets from one end of the cluster and back, over and over and over.The cluster generates at game start. I'm fairly certain the slowdown you saw after opening it was due to pathing. They've always had issues with pathing calculations through gateways.
Post by: Paul on December 28, 2018, 09:53:42 am
Ironman files are compressed, you can't open them and get anything meaningful. At least not without hacking the game's compression algorithm, which seems disproportionate.
Ironman saves are literally just zip files. You can open them as a zip file and read them. Now you can't edit and recompress them because it has a checksum, but you could look at it or even disable ironman.
For instance, you could disable ironman in a copy, survey the whole map, and then plan out your game based on that info.
Post by: Telgin on December 28, 2018, 09:58:45 am
So I finally got this, since it was on special on steam.
not finished my first game, but I've gotten bogged down a bit with the colony stuff. it feels kinda boring and distrcting from the game, which is a shame, since I read that it'd been recently changed in a patch to make it more interesting and engaging, not sure what it was like before, but the constant unhappiness from unemployment is just meh, especially when it's so restricted in what you can do to improve it. maybe I'm missing something, but it feels like a poorly designed puzzle game where you have to calculate what building will get the correct amount of housing vs jobs... or something. idk it didn't make a whole lot of sense.
It used to be a lot simpler, with the good and bad that had. On one hand, it made colony management much easier, but on the other hand, it largely consisted of just plopping buildings down on tiles with the right tile bonuses. Colony management is more like a minigame of its own now, which does at least give you something to do when not at war. I also found that it becomes a lot more intuitive after you've set a few colonies up, so it's not such a chore planning out how to address shortfalls of various resources.
The early game is also a lot slower now as a result (not talking about frame rates), which is more of a mixed bag. I kind of like the slower, more leisurely pace that the update brought, but some people find it boring.
Post by: Shooer on December 28, 2018, 11:51:50 am
I didn't turn it off on a any planet when I was playing my last game as a machine empire. Even though machine empires don't have natural migration and you have to manually move pops around. But having 4-5 fully developed worlds that could make 2-3 pops every couple months allowed me to fill up brand new worlds to 30 pops and just let them go really fast.
Super helpful when turning from a passive isolationist into a neutron sweeping exterminator. So many empty new worlds to colonize.
I honestly like that I can now sort of store pops to drop onto freshly colonized worlds to really jump start them WITHOUT taking away from the production of my more settled worlds.
Post by: Cruxador on December 28, 2018, 02:33:24 pm
Oh, are they editable once you unzip them? That's new to Stellaris then, it doesn't work that way in older Paradox games.Ironman files are compressed, you can't open them and get anything meaningful. At least not without hacking the game's compression algorithm, which seems disproportionate.
Ironman saves are literally just zip files. You can open them as a zip file and read them. Now you can't edit and recompress them because it has a checksum, but you could look at it or even disable ironman.
For instance, you could disable ironman in a copy, survey the whole map, and then plan out your game based on that info.
Post by: Radsoc on December 28, 2018, 07:37:22 pm
The economy part of the game has improved a lot, and I like the challenge of balancing/adapting the budget for dynamic needs (e.g how far can you push efficient alloy production and if you can increase living standards in the meantime). The trader enclave trade of previous versions might have been the worst feature of any modern strategy game, but the new market has completely remedied this. Not sure how the price mechanism works though, but it's as if the galactic empires are minor market players due to relatively small dynamic perturbations on a seemingly set equilibrium price (unlimited supply somewhere - but I guess one could be set based on galactic resource availability). Maybe there would be too little trade to achieve stable markets with only 10 partially trading empires or so. Piracy and trade is much more convincing now as well.
Securing resources is a good incentive for war, but the market could have an even bigger potential to that end if it could introduce competition, embargoes, and interface local markets.
The AI still lags behind. Year 2400 fleets are still less than 20k. (Everyone except the FE are rated "pathetic"), and now got a War in Heaven on my hands. The biggest AE has fleets rated at 90k for a total of 600k. I struggle with a fleet cap of 280 and probably 60k fleets (maybe settle for anti admin cap tech stagnation toward end game?). I guess I could have played even more aggressively to have a go at the Non-aligned achievement, but would be a senseless fight currently it seems.
The L-gates are much harder than people make them out to be. I had to go multiple fed+mercenary (cannon fodder)+regular+allies+dual titan rounds on massed 250k fleets. Small picket vessel swarms are good diversion, but some ships just got to pack a punch too.
Space communism is now a thing (and makes sense where slavery, feudalism and capitalism does not - as reflections of modes of production tied to obsolete non space faring tech : ). The empire voice over is a bit on the paradox-humorous side though.
Post by: E. Albright on December 28, 2018, 07:44:48 pm
(unlimited supply somewhere - but I guess one could be set based on galactic resource availability)
It's more confusing when you recall there's an equally-unlimited local market until the galactic one is founded, even if you're all alone in the night.
Post by: BurnedToast on December 28, 2018, 08:00:21 pm
I like how the game has progressed since last time I played, but I'm confused about the planetary revamp. What was the reason? Less micro and better AI? Not sure about that, but I'm glad the geographical (adjacency and what not) tile management is gone, even though I miss the presentation and the "tactility" part of it (in that you could drag pops around - I take it there's an auto best fit now - which is fine). Yet, now there can be hundreds of pops and variable density (which wasn't modeled before).
Less micro, better AI, and a better ratio of meaningful choices to mindless busywork were the goals.
I guess 1 out of 3 is... something? There are more meaningful choices and less mindless busywork, since instead of building upgrades we now just get flat resource boosts from research. Unfortunately the AI is amazingly somehow even worse than it was at the old system. The sector system has also gotten so much worse/more annoying which combined with the bad AI means there's a massively larger amount of micromanagement past early game (say, 10+ planets)
Also there is no "auto best fit" system. The AI is perfectly happy to put say, mining boost pop on farms and then put farm boost pop in mines and you can't change it without a lot of tedious fiddling with the "priority" arrows (which aren't priority at all and are actually just "open/close job slots" arrows). It's even worse because pops take 10 years(!) to "demote" their social status so if the AI promotes a mining boost pop into a specialist job, he will sit unemployed for 10 years before you can get him back in the mines.
Edit: I forgot, better performance was another goal... and another failure since the game runs like garbage now. I had zero problems before 2.2, even late game in a large galaxy but now I start getting stuttering and lag after ~100 years and it just slowly becomes unplayable. I've never actually finished a 2.2 game due to increased micro + slowdown/lag
Space communism is now a thing (and makes sense where slavery, feudalism and capitalism does not - as reflections of modes of production tied to obsolete non space faring tech : ). The empire voice over is a bit on the paradox-humorous side though.
Slavery makes perfect sense in a universe where building an undefined "unit" of robots takes up to 5x as long as an undefined "unit" of population takes to be born and grow up to working age. Also space law says you can only have one guy building robots per planet.
Post by: Cruxador on December 28, 2018, 08:21:13 pm
And it's fully available even if you're a hivemind or something, without any domestic economy.(unlimited supply somewhere - but I guess one could be set based on galactic resource availability)
It's more confusing when you recall there's an equally-unlimited local market until the galactic one is founded, even if you're all alone in the night.
Post by: Radsoc on December 29, 2018, 04:54:50 am
"Balance" is another thing. I think they are too worried about that to a point where the civs basically turn into different graphics as a front for similar mechanics. What they should be thinking is to provide civs with a spectrum of tools to achieve the same ends through asymmetrical balance. The dominions series does this wonderfully.
A final issue is the battles. All lasers fire simultaneously etc. But that's just cosmetics :P Ground battles are better now, with the disengagement and so on, but Master of Orion 2 did this nicer more than 20 years ago.
Post by: Cruxador on December 29, 2018, 06:25:07 am
The dominions series does this wonderfully.It's also had nearly ten times the development time and (without putting too fine a point on it) it's designed by a different caliber of man. It's not reasonable to use this as a benchmark for groups like Paradox.
Post by: Nelia Hawk on December 29, 2018, 05:41:28 pm
A final issue is the battles. All lasers fire simultaneously etc. But that's just cosmetics :P
https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=1524731904
the bottom 4 of that list might help a bit with that
Post by: Paul on December 29, 2018, 09:22:27 pm
You only grow one pop at a time, and it seems to favor aliens over the predominant species on the planet. So as soon as you get another alien species, even if you only have a single pop of it, you'll suddenly grow almost nothing but that species. Even if your current species has rapid breeders and the new species has slow breeders, your rapid breeders will just suddenly stop breeding and you'll get the penalty of slow breeders unless you specify which species you want to grow (population controls, which also hurts growth) or limit them to zero migration and put them all on a single world.
If they just made the simulation a tiny bit deeper and kept track of the different species growths and migration individually it would be so so much better. Then my one little pop of aliens would grow very slowly on their own and not impact the growth of my main species.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 29, 2018, 09:47:23 pm
Post by: BurnedToast on December 30, 2018, 12:30:26 am
It feels especially bad because there's no way to get more. You can spam hydroponics for food, and spam commerce buildings for energy but nothing for minerals. So every new planet I snag is only useful up to however many mine slots it has - and anything more than that is dead weight, paying consumer goods (indirectly minerals) to get stuff I don't need and that feels really bad.
For now I'm managing to afford buying hundreds of minerals per month from the magic unlimited market but I feel like I probably can't sustain that forever. At least the only penalty for running out of minerals is half alloy production so it's not actually a very big deal... but I want to try and at least pretend I'm playing "correctly" and not abusing a stupid design decision.
It almost seems pay2win (matter decompressor, hive mind for hive worlds or robots for robot worlds) except there have been so many other oversights and questionable design decisions with 2.2 that I suspect they probably just didn't think it all the way through.
Edit: oops, 500 deficit was without production targets which I didn't notice had run out, but still - minerals are too rare imo.
Post by: Paul on December 30, 2018, 01:22:57 am
Using that I'm able to run my empires consumer goods fully off trade income and use the militarized economy policy for +25% alloy production. I replaced all my consumer goods factories with commercial zones and research labs. Without having to produce consumer goods, I can use my entire mineral income on alloy production and I don't run into mineral shortages.
This is MUCH more effective with a Thrifty species, as the +25% trade value bonus is a huge benefit. Even better if you're also xenophile, but thrifty is the biggest one.
With Thrifty and consumer benefits trade policy, the Clerk job is actually useful :o.
Post by: ollobrains on December 30, 2018, 06:32:28 am
I've managed to get to midgame with my first non-hive race and I'm starting to understand why people talk about a mineral crunch. There's just not enough of them. I've got virtually every possible mine built in my whole empire, with production targets running and I'm still running a -500 deficit. I didn't even go too crazy with the alloy forges - I've got one refinery planet covered in them, and a small handful on other planets and that's it, but I just can't keep them fed. I don't even have any ecumenopolis since I don't have megacorp, I can't imagine how bad it would be with a couple of those.
It feels especially bad because there's no way to get more. You can spam hydroponics for food, and spam commerce buildings for energy but nothing for minerals. So every new planet I snag is only useful up to however many mine slots it has - and anything more than that is dead weight, paying consumer goods (indirectly minerals) to get stuff I don't need and that feels really bad.
For now I'm managing to afford buying hundreds of minerals per month from the magic unlimited market but I feel like I probably can't sustain that forever. At least the only penalty for running out of minerals is half alloy production so it's not actually a very big deal... but I want to try and at least pretend I'm playing "correctly" and not abusing a stupid design decision.
It almost seems pay2win (matter decompressor, hive mind for hive worlds or robots for robot worlds) except there have been so many other oversights and questionable design decisions with 2.2 that I suspect they probably just didn't think it all the way through.
Edit: oops, 500 deficit was without production targets which I didn't notice had run out, but still - minerals are too rare imo.
know whwat u mean, in my playthrough ended up with my war declarations where I could laying claim to the nearby enemy mineral systems and just going after those (plus capturing ther species to incorporate into my empire, having a mix of species to settle different habability worlds according to species made the consumer upkeep cost much less and being able to drop mining on planets did help but its really min maxxing but it did help a lot cut the mineral crunch by about 60%)
Post by: melkor on December 30, 2018, 10:04:36 am
You can spam hydroponics for food, and spam commerce buildings for energy but nothing for minerals.
actually that's not true you can build nebula refinery's to get 6+ minerals
i will however admit that is kinda tricky to get since the starbase must be build in a nebula before you can build the refinery.
Post by: dennislp3 on December 30, 2018, 10:45:26 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 30, 2018, 11:15:32 am
Post by: Rolan7 on December 30, 2018, 11:34:03 am
And it's odd about the mineral crunch, I haven't experienced that at all yet. I have been running very few alloy forges though, and often find myself falling behind in consumer goods. Trade value can make a lot of goods, but I prefer to run the unity boost when I can.
Post by: Telgin on December 30, 2018, 01:16:22 pm
Very late game, I was able to keep production targets and omnifarious acquisition running, but it would kind of suck if they became mandatory. Can't really remember if they were necessary for me by that point, but I did run them both often.
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 30, 2018, 01:27:32 pm
Post by: Telgin on December 30, 2018, 01:33:46 pm
Post by: acidia on December 30, 2018, 08:17:22 pm
Post by: Shooer on December 30, 2018, 08:30:49 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 31, 2018, 11:07:37 am
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 31, 2018, 01:22:20 pm
Post by: Telgin on December 31, 2018, 01:53:39 pm
That said, an inefficient asteroid mining bay building for habitats would still make some sense, and the old matter replicator building would still make sense. Not sure why they removed them, really.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on December 31, 2018, 01:55:49 pm
Now they have alloys and more-directly-useful strategic resources for that sort of thing, and minerals are exactly that, raw natural materials.
Post by: E. Albright on December 31, 2018, 08:59:31 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 01, 2019, 01:03:09 pm
Now military and civilian production are separate resources; you can't just cancel all your alloy production and put the minerals into research habitats, because you won't have the consumer goods to support all those researchers. Also because defensive and offensive production are slightly separate now, and upgrading costs so many alloys, if you just cease military production completely you'll fall behind faster than you would in the past. But of course since alloys can't be used for most civilian purposes there's no incentive to stop military production any more.
Overall I really like what they did with the resources because its much more clear what they mean. Have a lot of unity? You'll reach a midgame peak faster because traditions don't require any kind of upkeep, but fall off later once you have 4+ traditions groups done. Have a lot of influence? You can grow your borders fast. Have an excess of civilian goods? That means you can expand your civilian economy. Huge amount of alloys? No point having that if you're going to play passively. The end result is that now having certain ethics or choosing to produce certain resources is making a much more specific statement about your future. My main complaint is that the current state of research makes the anti-snowball stuff pretty useless.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on January 02, 2019, 01:36:45 pm
Granted it's a deliberate strategy on my part.
Post by: dennislp3 on January 04, 2019, 09:05:18 pm
Tomb World start + fanatic purifiers. To get even more silly throw in adaptable and you literally colonize every planet (but I understand they will fix tomb world starts having high habitability on all planet types)
With armageddon bombardment you can turn worlds into tomb worlds which means if you see an enemy planet with a ton of slots you can just bomb it into a tomb world and you are good to go.
Take the ascension perk that allows raiding if you want to steal some of their pops for unity first.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on January 04, 2019, 09:27:44 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on January 07, 2019, 12:35:21 am
Anomaly: Click one button to either dedicate the science ship to the digression, or leave it for later if you're surveying as fast as possible.
Special project: Pause, bring up the situation log. If you're fast enough, the science ship is still "present", and you can activate the special project. Otherwise you go to the system, leave the system, select the nearby science ship, right click the special project.
I sorta see some value in it switching up the early survey game... but through meaningless UI busywork. I feel like I'm missing something. Maybe they're timed?
Edit: But the case which prompted this is a 3 billion year old skeleton so probably not timed. Why is this not just an anomaly?
Post by: Trekkin on January 07, 2019, 12:50:59 am
There's something that still confuses me a little: The "special projects" which spawn while surveying systems. I don't see any mechanical difference between them and anomalies, except that they require more clicks.
Anomaly: Click one button to either dedicate the science ship to the digression, or leave it for later if you're surveying as fast as possible.
Special project: Pause, bring up the situation log. If you're fast enough, the science ship is still "present", and you can activate the special project. Otherwise you go to the system, leave the system, select the nearby science ship, right click the special project.
I sorta see some value in it switching up the early survey game... but through meaningless UI busywork. I feel like I'm missing something. Maybe they're timed?
Edit: But the case which prompted this is a 3 billion year old skeleton so probably not timed. Why is this not just an anomaly?
I think they're handled differently by the events system. Anomalies, as far as I know, have one step and can only require a science ship; anything more complicated is a special project. I vaguely recall seeing some special projects that default to having a single step, like anomalies, if your empire doesn't meet the conditions to explore them further, so maybe that accounts for the similarities you're seeing.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on January 07, 2019, 08:29:38 am
There's something that still confuses me a little: The "special projects" which spawn while surveying systems. I don't see any mechanical difference between them and anomalies, except that they require more clicks.
Anomaly: Click one button to either dedicate the science ship to the digression, or leave it for later if you're surveying as fast as possible.
Special project: Pause, bring up the situation log. If you're fast enough, the science ship is still "present", and you can activate the special project. Otherwise you go to the system, leave the system, select the nearby science ship, right click the special project.
I sorta see some value in it switching up the early survey game... but through meaningless UI busywork. I feel like I'm missing something. Maybe they're timed?
Edit: But the case which prompted this is a 3 billion year old skeleton so probably not timed. Why is this not just an anomaly?
I think they're handled differently by the events system. Anomalies, as far as I know, have one step and can only require a science ship; anything more complicated is a special project. I vaguely recall seeing some special projects that default to having a single step, like anomalies, if your empire doesn't meet the conditions to explore them further, so maybe that accounts for the similarities you're seeing.
yes they are literally handled by different systems
the question is why. it's just another typical paradox design decision. adds nothing to the game but makes everything more fiddly.
Post by: Telgin on January 07, 2019, 09:54:34 am
I'd like to see any special project that only requires a science ship in orbit to be changed to anomalies where possible, since I agree that it's a real hassle to pause the game, go to the system with the ship, click the ship, then ctrl+shift+right click and select the research option every time one of them pops up.
Unrelated to the above, but what's the highest fleet power any of you have ever achieved in a defensive station, without mods? I've been seeing how far I can push them with the new strategic coordination center, and since you can get up to 40 defense platforms on a single citadel with it, you can get some pretty high numbers. I've got four bastions at about 172K fleet power right now at 2445 and hope to get to over 200K by 2500. Up to 22-23 levels of repeatables on relevant techs right now.
It's probably academic since I'm pretty sure the station would take painfully high losses from the defense platforms in any serious fight, but it's fun to look at the numbers. It's also murderously expensive in alloys so I'd never do this against human opponents. Upkeep is pretty insane too, and it looks like defense platforms do cost (a small) alloy upkeep, where they didn't have mineral upkeep in 2.1 from what I recall.
Post by: dennislp3 on January 07, 2019, 12:21:49 pm
As for stations...~200k seems to be the upper limits for them barring any repeating techs
Post by: Paul on January 07, 2019, 05:27:16 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on January 07, 2019, 06:49:32 pm
Post by: Culise on January 07, 2019, 07:37:50 pm
Post by: Telgin on January 08, 2019, 12:02:04 am
Also managed to get a defense station up to 211K fleet power in 2475 or so with 30 levels of repeatable techs. I'll find out how they fare against the Contingency once the crises get fixed.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 08, 2019, 12:46:29 am
Well, that's just a narrative of course. They leave me alone now because I float a decent navy, and have an overwhelming tech lead. I've got this one research planet, with a dimensional portal, which I've been pouring a sizeable portion of my total income into. Mostly in the form of exotic gasses for the research complexes, but now I'm relocating pops to it. It's 2310 and I've almost got zero-point power, the requirement for Master Builders, because I'm definitely playing tall (https://imgur.com/wM4gvwY).
I'm not sure if the research speed is super great, but it feels pretty good. I'm only a few points over the administration limit, and my economy is doing so well that I can
Take the Unity option for trade
Let my people farm because they want to (Agrarian Idyll, grants amenities) then sell 100/month off
Buy about 10 strategic resources/month from the market
And have nutritional plentitude, health care edict, and individually running the "Encourage Planetary Growth" food-decision on each planet. Which is quite tedious, there's no notification when it times out... But it's worth it, because pops grow so slowly, and in this run I don't have immigration.
This all took some juggling and trading before I genetically modified the race to be Extremely Adaptable, now I'm running a nice surplus across the board. Habitability penalties were certainly a factor in my consumer-good woes.
Edit: In like 2020 my nearest neighbor actually vassalized me, which was... so amusing that I just accepted it? It was a little frustrating not being able to expand into the areas I'd cut off for myself, but I also didn't have to worry about war for a few decades. Apparently the "tribute" is merely fleet power, which I didn't care about. When I was done building up what I could, I had an easy war of liberation.
Later they (on my northern border) attacked me because I didn't bother to build my navy up at all. I had built up our 2-system border with signal-jamming starbases which ensured they lost a lot of ships. I counterclaimed and won a few systems so that we'd only have a 1-system border, and they haven't bothered me since.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 09, 2019, 01:05:00 pm
Border friction is a hell of a drug
Post by: Cruxador on January 09, 2019, 01:26:46 pm
Post by: Telgin on January 09, 2019, 02:24:14 pm
Still, life-seeded is an interesting challenge, and I'll probably do it again.
Inward perfection layered on top is an interesting choice, and I almost exclusively play inward perfectionists now since I like to be self sufficient and have an irrational desire to only have my own pops on my planets even if I don't hate aliens (really!). The bonuses for inward perfection are really nice, and especially since multi-species planets are weird with population growth, not having migrants is almost a good thing. I only wish I could have combined both civics with technocracy for insane science and unity output. Even with out it, I unlocked all traditions before 2400 and had repeatables in the 20s with an 800K navy (not counting stations) at the end of the game.
The game was extremely relaxed though. Nobody declared war on me the whole game, and by the time the crises showed up I stomped it into the dirt. I suspect that that may be different now in the 2.2.3 beta though, since AI empires supposedly are much better at building navies early on because they buy alloys from the market like it's candy, and if you neglect your navy you might be lucky enough to have a war declaration. Even in 2.1 I only had one empire declare war on me across like 5 games, and that was because I built almost no ships. That might return in later bugfix patches in 2.2.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 09, 2019, 03:45:14 pm
And then the Precursors blessed my first true tall playthrough with an Ecumenopolis. Keeping in mind I *don't own Megacorp yet, this is really exciting. So exciting that I initially had awful ideas like making the whole thing leisure districts (that lasted exactly one district). It's... big, like the art kinda shows. It's a practically infinite expanse of hyper-dense, but very expensive to develop, industrial architecture.
Lessee, 440 pops, 15 per district... Luxury housing... this one world could juuuust fit my entire species without overcrowding, if dedicated to housing. But half my species would fit easily in, without any dedicated housing, fully devoted to industry!
It's kinda amazing to consider, like a Minecraft world of abandoned buildings. My friends and I generated something like that, once, and built our projects within and around the husks.
First League more like First Losers amirite... *looks around nervously at the precursor architecture in case it heard*
Post by: Telgin on January 09, 2019, 04:49:55 pm
I'm kind of expecting a nerf bat to head their way soon, hopefully with an unnerf bat for habitats.
On the subject of colonies, I wish there were more good colony events. Seems like the overwhelming majority are bad or are slanted toward bad outcomes. I lost 15 pops to the Horizon Signal event, and I just got the abandoned terraforming equipment event that killed an entire colony and turned it into a toxic world. That event in particular has almost no good outcomes, since it usually terraforms the planet into the wrong type for your species if it works, and if it doesn't work it can create monsters that kill your defense armies and take over, or it can apparently ruin the planet. And if you leave it alone or dismantle the equipment, the planet has a permanent -5-10% habitability and happiness value.
Then there's the time waster that is the psychoactive plants event that requires like 3 trips from a science ship to complete... the plague event, which at least used to give a unity building and maybe still does... the list goes on. The titanic life event also backfired on me in that game and made the titans mad, who proceeded to eat something like 15 armies before I retook control of the colony.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 09, 2019, 05:25:00 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on January 09, 2019, 05:27:49 pm
Post by: BurnedToast on January 09, 2019, 09:57:52 pm
The First League is kind of brokenly good right now, especially compared to the others. I've been super lucky and gotten it on each of my 2.2 games, and it's a massive boon. In my second game I colonized another size 25 planet near it and also turned it into an ecumenopolis. Ecumenopoleis get +20% to most (maybe all) resource production, on top of the insane alloy and consumer goods they can produce from jobs. I filled most of the building slots up with top tier research labs, and with science ships helping research, they produce around +1K of each type, each. That's like 35% of my entire empire's research production between them, and probably 70% of the consumer goods and alloy production.
I'm kind of expecting a nerf bat to head their way soon, hopefully with an unnerf bat for habitats.
While they are at it, they can unnerf ringworlds too. They need double buildings, or double output from buildings, or some unique districts, or something to make them special. Right now they are just "really big worlds with effectively half the buildings that cost a TON of resources" in a game where you rarely actually fill up all your regular worlds.
There's almost never any reason to ever build them. If you rush them mid-game, you've got uncolonized and low pop worlds you could send people to instead without pouring thousands of alloy into a money pit. Late game, they won't ever fill up and become usefully productive before the game is finished. Finally, even if you play past the end date (or set it way back) they can only produce energy and food, and the only use for all that food is selling it for energy... but you're better off making alloy to sell for energy, so you'd be better off spamming habitats filled with alloy forges instead of building a ringworld.
It's a little amusing to me that the only thing that would make them maybe worthwhile - infinite mining districts - was removed. I mean sure, it didn't make any sense thematically but mechanically it would at least have given them some purpose in feeding minerals into your ecumenopolis alloy worlds. It's almost like they purposely nerfed them into the ground to make the new DLC look better... hmm.....
Post by: Telgin on January 09, 2019, 11:55:13 pm
I think they might be decent for agrarian idylls, but not much else.
Post by: Paul on January 10, 2019, 10:59:23 am
Post by: Telgin on January 10, 2019, 11:35:28 am
The funny thing about removing infrastructure is that their justification was that the infrastructure jumps meant that suddenly a lot of new jobs opened up that caused pops to promote to them and undermine your resource production economy, but that still happens if you build anything with specialist jobs. It's not as pronounced as having potentially 15 buildings add a new specialist job at an infrastructure breakpoint, but it does still happen. I'm pretty sure it could be balanced around.
Actually, adding a promotion delay would help a lot there, and it's a suggestion I've seen floated around that I like. It stops that problem and also makes sense, since it's unlikely farmers can just jump into research jobs anyway.
Post by: Paul on January 10, 2019, 12:12:15 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 11, 2019, 03:20:12 pm
Other than that, I think the intent is that if you want to employ a large population you need special resources. If you're determined about hunting those down you can employ a large amount of people in one planet.
Post by: umiman on January 11, 2019, 03:32:04 pm
No blowing up space habitats or ringworlds. No destruction of an empire's energy reserves in their Dyson Sphere, crippling them forever. Etc. etc.
Post by: Telgin on January 11, 2019, 03:43:21 pm
I'm sure the actual justification for not allowing the destruction of things like Dyson spheres is because losing one would probably be an economic disaster you couldn't recover from. That, of course, makes them particularly good targets in a war so I think it would be nice to at least have it as a configurable option. Balancing the difficulty of destroying one might be hard, and it might end up being one of those things only colossi should be able to destroy.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 11, 2019, 05:25:33 pm
I think a good compromise would be allowing you to reduce a megastructure to its damaged state if you own it, perhaps after a certain amount of time spent with an alert to nearby factions (you could get alloys and say you're "salvaging" it). That would prevent you from destroying megastructures without winning a war, but it would also give you a reward for putting in the effort to conquer a megastructure you don't intend to keep.
I do think you shouldn't be able to destroy a populated ringworld or habitat, you should have to purge it first. Not for balance or logic, just to be consistent with how planets work. I can't imagine there's anything easier or less upsetting about destroying a populated ringworld than destroying a populated planet and we seem incapable/unwilling to do that until we get colossus.
(wiki claims you can destroy ringworld sections with a colossus, one at a time and they can't be rebuilt. Habitats as well but they just vanish)
Post by: ZeroGravitas on January 12, 2019, 03:20:06 pm
Which is weird because there are models for ruined megastructures, and I'm pretty sure one of the dev diaries for 2.2 mentioned that they could be destroyed. Well, colossi can destroy habitats and ringworld segments, right?
there are models for ruined ones because you can find old ones and repair them (in fact, you don't even need the Utopia DLC to do it).
Post by: Telgin on January 12, 2019, 06:05:28 pm
I'm just surprised that they didn't follow things to their natural conclusion and add the ability to ruin them again somehow.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on January 14, 2019, 10:54:12 am
Yeah, even if they seem to be extremely rare. I've only ever seen one, if I recall.
I'm just surprised that they didn't follow things to their natural conclusion and add the ability to ruin them again somehow.
if you play on smaller galaxies you won't see many. a Large galaxy can have two or even three.
Post by: Telgin on January 14, 2019, 11:23:39 am
The one ruined megastructure I found was a Dyson sphere, which admittedly was a very nice find too. Being able to just repair it in a single step in stead of five construction steps was very nice.
Oh, I guess I did get Cybrex Alpha once, but that's a little different from the random megastructures.
Post by: Trekkin on January 14, 2019, 11:45:28 am
The one ruined megastructure I found was a Dyson sphere, which admittedly was a very nice find too. Being able to just repair it in a single step in stead of five construction steps was very nice.
Was there ever an official explanation of why megastructures have five intermediate steps before they're complete, each of which can only be triggered manually? It's honestly the biggest obstacle to my building lots of them.
Post by: Telgin on January 14, 2019, 12:14:12 pm
It would probably make even more sense for it to be a monthly drain, but the game designers might think that having to accumulate some big chunk of resources feels more meaningful and engaging. I guess that might be true.
Doing them in stages also lets you interleave their construction, since you're limited to one at a time, although that's a contentious issue on its own.
Post by: Trekkin on January 14, 2019, 12:32:43 pm
Post by: Telgin on January 18, 2019, 01:21:43 pm
I'll probably finish off my last game tonight anyway, despite waiting for an AI fix for the crises. The Contingency's difficulty isn't as affected by them conquering planets so the challenge shouldn't be much reduced by the bug.
Post by: Stench Guzman on January 18, 2019, 08:25:24 pm
I keep wanting to find a ruined science nexus, because I'm curious if its research speed bonus stacks with one you build. Not that you really need even more science boosts in 2.2 in its current state, but it would still be fun just to see the numbers go up.
Answer: Multiple science nexuses stack.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Telgin on January 30, 2019, 03:11:07 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on January 30, 2019, 03:21:55 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 30, 2019, 03:33:51 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 30, 2019, 03:44:20 pm
Post by: Broseph Stalin on January 30, 2019, 04:19:14 pm
You can also use starbases as traps. I like to sprinkle hard hitting defense platforms in groups of one or two when I take a system. You can make sure retaking a system costs a corvette or two and you can hold the enemy fleet still for a few extra seconds when they're staying a step ahead of your guys. If you're evenly matched with an enemy take a system, let the base recover, and then bait them into attacking. Let them wear down their armor and shields fighting the base and then swoop in when they're soft.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on January 30, 2019, 04:35:08 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 30, 2019, 05:04:36 pm
A starbase can be very useful but if you can muster enough force to make a starbase tough enough to defend itself frankly you're probably punching down so hard you're wasting time worrying about defense.Sometimes its the travel time more than the fleet power that gets me. In one of my games it takes >2 years to travel across my entire claimed territory end to end, so an unexpected war or a war when a fleet is out of position can be a problem. I have to station multiple fleets around to keep all areas covered and more to handle piracy. I can't just concentrate all fleet power on a whim. Well planned defensive stations really help and provide chokepoints to gather and hold at until more ships arrive
Post by: Rolan7 on January 31, 2019, 06:53:42 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 31, 2019, 07:08:19 pm
Post by: Telgin on January 31, 2019, 08:14:59 pm
Post by: Culise on January 31, 2019, 09:41:40 pm
Post by: Broseph Stalin on January 31, 2019, 09:54:58 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on February 01, 2019, 12:22:49 am
Post by: Kanil on February 01, 2019, 12:35:23 am
Post by: Digital Hellhound on February 01, 2019, 02:04:07 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on February 01, 2019, 03:56:29 am
Yep, the ai favors the opposite of your ethics. I assume it's to make sure you don't all stomp one guy and gather around the campfire singing kumbaya.
That should be the role of the game crisis tho
ok so I picked it up again. created some custom races etc.
Spoiler: you reap what you sow, I guess (click to show/hide)
anyway: I got a question: how do you expand influence? I know you can build station to force it, but all other empires don't have to build a station on every single planet, while my empire is full of holes
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
also, it seems I can't assign systems to sectors for management
Post by: pisskop on February 02, 2019, 06:58:15 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on February 02, 2019, 07:21:53 pm
anyway: I got a question: how do you expand influence? I know you can build station to force it, but all other empires don't have to build a station on every single planet, while my empire is full of holesSpoiler (click to show/hide)
also, it seems I can't assign systems to sectors for management
You build a station in every system now, it's part of the big changes in in 2.0 that happened about a year ago. Most of them you leave as tiny zero sized stations, only upgrading to real stations at important places or when you need certain modulus.
New in 2.2 you don't assign systems to sectors. Sectors are (somewhat awkwardly) automatically generated when you colonize a planet in a star cluster that doesn't have a system already. Also they no longer have their own resource bank, instead doing nothing by default (except seriously limiting the reach of the bonuses that governor leaders give, since leaders are now per sector instead of per planet, but in exchange have their cost tied to how large your empire is for some reason) although you can still give them permission and resources to automate them if you want. The idea is with the economic changes in 2.2 there's suppose to be less "pointless" clicking and things are suppose to be more based around actual decisions and hopefully less micromanagement, thus sectors would no longer really be needed and not do anything by default, but still there if you really want them. Personally I'm not sure if they really achieved that, but ymmv.
Hey, how's the new content, and how hard is the adjustment?
Imo the new content is full of good ideas implemented really poorly, like, shockingly poorly, and with zero actual testing. Although now, a month and a half after release, some of the more glaring bugs have been fixed, there's still a lot of serious flaws in implementation that I don't have much hope for us actually seeing fixed. Adjustment isn't too bad. Just take it slow, and probably it'd be best to read up on the dev diaries at least so you don't jump in blind. Economic management is very different, but not very complex or deep or hard to grasp.
Post by: Telgin on February 02, 2019, 10:36:12 pm
Quote
Imo the new content is full of good ideas implemented really poorly
This is about how I feel. I really enjoy the game and the changes, but there are some serious issues with the new economy that need to be fixed, like the fact that you can cheese monthly resource requirements by buying a little from the market every month, or can just outright ignore upkeep since at worst you get like 50% penalties to things like alloy production no matter how far in the hole you are with minerals and energy.
Job priorities also act weird, machine empires are kind of in a seriously bad state with energy upkeep, lots of bugs still, etc.
Post by: LoSboccacc on February 03, 2019, 03:38:29 am
You build a station in every system now, it's part of the big changes in in 2.0 that happened about a year ago. Most of them you leave as tiny zero sized stations, only upgrading to real stations at important places or when you need certain modulus.
weird. so ai's stations don't show up on the map?
anyway, that's hard I'm always on some energy deficit of sort, even placing stations only on stuff that has some sun I can mine for energy it's hard to get some balance.
oh, where do I see a planet max pop? I'm trying to figure out how many city sector are needed for each production sector but I can't find the info
Post by: Mini on February 03, 2019, 06:06:27 am
Post by: Criptfeind on February 03, 2019, 07:25:06 am
weird. so ai's stations don't show up on the map?
t0 stations that aren't in inhabited systems don't show up on the galaxy map, no. Look at the image you posted, your own stations also are not on that map in three out of five systems (only showing up in Kerbol both because that's an upgraded station and an inhabited system, and Ruthauri because it's an inhabited system.) It's also important to note that t0 stations don't count against your starbase cap.
anyway, that's hard I'm always on some energy deficit of sort, even placing stations only on stuff that has some sun I can mine for energy it's hard to get some balance.
A t0 station only costs one energy upkeep, which is pretty rare for systems in general to not pay for themselves, looking at the image you posted and at all the surrounding systems that you've explored there is 12 explored unclaimed systems, with a total of eighteen energy. If you take everything you'll have a surplus of 6 energy and however many other resources you mine as well.
oh, where do I see a planet max pop? I'm trying to figure out how many city sector are needed for each production sector but I can't find the info
To expand on Minis answer: You have two limitations on how much pop you can have, both are soft caps, but if you go over them your population will become unhappy and growth speed will be reduced, at first small amounts to both, eventually enough that they should stop growing but also probably be somewhat unhappy. Both of them are in the info box in the bottom leftish of the planet screen, how many you have, and how many you need.
The first is housing, which is pretty self explanatory for what it is. Pops use different amounts of housing depending on their social class, but in general you need about 1 housing per population. City districts provide 5 housing, each resource gathering district provides 1 housing.
The second is Jobs. Which are basically the slots you have on the planet for the pops to work in. The city district provides 1 not so good job, and the resource gathering districts provide 2 jobs.
So as you can see from the numbers, normally a certain balance of city districts, for more housing, and resource gathering districts (generator, mining, and farming districts) are needed, when you need more jobs for your pops, build a resource gathering district, normally of the type of whatever base resource you are low on. When you need more housing, build a city district.
In addition to this, every 5 population on a planet unlocks a building slot (up to 16 slots unlocked by 80 population). Most buildings give more jobs, and importantly, they give more advanced jobs that do more then just gather basic resources. Artisans, who turn minerals into consumer goods that you population uses as upkeep (like they do food) metallurgists, who turn minerals into alloys that you use to build space thing (such as warships or starbases), entertainers who turn consumer goods into amenities (which you need to keep the pops on the planet happy) and researchers that turn consumer goods into research (which you need to... research) all come from buildings. There's also a building option to increase your housing (and give some amenities) if you need it.
Most jobs from buildings are also considered a higher class of worker then jobs from districts, so they require more upkeep and their happiness counts more towards the stability of the planet (stability being essentially what replaces individual pop bonuses from happiness that were in previously, now you can have unhappy pops, but if the stability is high, they still get bonuses)
Buildings can also be upgraded eventually, although that costs both a large one time payment and an ongoing upkeep cost in rare resources, but then they offer more jobs per building slot. This can be useful, or not, depending on how your empire is set up.
So in general, you have to use a mix of districts to build up the base production of your planet, and then you can add buildings for more advanced production when you need it, at first you'll generally use buildings for pop upkeep in consumer goods and amenities, but eventually you'll get free slots and enough housing and a big enough economy to put in more metallurgists and researchers, who will help you advance your empire either militarily or technologically.
Post by: Rolan7 on February 03, 2019, 12:19:13 pm
Two neighbors bully me for no reason ): Declare war without any claims, simply humiliate me. I can't really stop them (because I'm expanding at a breakneck pace in other directions) so eventually I surrender, and make less drones for a while because I'm sad :'(
Then I meet the United Nations of Earth. They're all about making friends and protecting people! But their federation-friend thinks I'm gross, so I can't join their club. Forever alone...
But then one of the bullies conquers a mean devouring swarm, which makes them a "mutual threat" for me and the federation-friend. Just +1, but enough. Now I'm a federation associate and basically won the game, as I can work on my economy-optimization in peace, guarded by the Auspicious League. I'm definitely going to be a full member, eventually. I set the crisis timers waaaay early this time, so it's really good that a strong federation has already formed.
Oh, and my race is Thoraxians, like from The Last Federation, so I'm pretty pleased at how things played out. A hive mind joining a federation for protection, and being a very useful if quirky team player (:
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 03, 2019, 02:10:44 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on February 03, 2019, 02:29:18 pm
What I didn't realize was that captured xenos default to "livestock". Oops. After an awkward moment (xenophages aren't popular, especially with xenophiles like the Federation) we switched to the much more woke policy of shipping the xenos into deep space. And now I'm a full member of the Federation :D
The bully and half-eaten bully are fricken terrified, trying to scrabble together defensive pacts of their own with minor powers, but the galaxy's basically secure until the crises.
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 03, 2019, 02:43:01 pm
"Sssssorryyyy, weeeee aaarrrrre neeew toooo feeedeeratioonnn, will not eeaaat neew frieeend (:"
Several million Yax'kalockians stare in horror as the drones help them pack up their luggage for an extragalactic voyage
Post by: Rolan7 on February 03, 2019, 03:00:32 pm
Protip, though: Apparently displacement IS considered genocide, now, with all the diplomatic penalties that entails. Triggered after a couple months once the pops started disappearing. Sorta makes sense, but it's just a significant change (apparently new to 2.2).
What makes less sense: The penalty for keeping aliums as livestock was *far* less severe. Like -25 or -50, instead of stacking up to -300 in some cases. Despite giving them no rights and eating them on an industrial scale.
Sigh... Apparently I need the Evolution Mastery ascension to "integrate" alien-friends peacefully. By uh... absorbing their free will into the collective. That's apparently a lot more acceptable. I hope at *least* the egalitarians have a problem with it... But meh, I don't plan to invade any more planets anyway.
(If I understand this correctly: I might as well be condensing them into nutrient-cubes, or cutting them down in the streets, it's the same "genocide" as letting them leave. But farming is tolerable, and meat-puppets might be okay)
Post by: EnigmaticHat on February 03, 2019, 03:41:23 pm
It seems like you should have the option of giving the survivors of the bombardment however many districts of housing as a nature reserve for sentients. Even if its a totally useless option it would still be less jarring than a "cooperative" hive mind being forced to commit genocide.
Edit: For that matter, a xenophile civ should be able to donate captured drones to other hive minds so they don't have to be killed, or return them to the original hive mind if it still exists
Post by: Rolan7 on February 03, 2019, 04:05:53 pm
The in-universe justification for forced-purging is that hive-drones aren't smart enough to tolerate "others", and automatically react as if to an infection... or something to digest.
As for displacement, it's obviously an atrocity. Even if all the displaced find new homes in accepting nations like the United Nations of Earth, which I *think* is happening. Just... seems like a different tier of atrocity than literal deathcamps or farms.
Speaking of, the United Nations of Earth tried to kick me out of the federation as the "Genocidal" modifier grew to -618. The other federation member voted no, since they only had a -153 Genocide modifier, for a net of +67 after trust and mutual rivalries.
The kicker: The United Nations of Earth left their own federation in disgust. It's kinda sad but also pretty funny. Ugh, I would have released the sector if I'd known it was an option (though I'm pretty sure all the drones would die off). At this point they've almost all been relocated, anyway.
(Not that the citizens should be punished for their government's choices, but the nation did attack *me* without provocation. I'm set to defensive wars only, and didn't bombard.)
Post by: Majestic7 on February 03, 2019, 04:41:31 pm
Join the Many, be greater than just an individual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POYgUfr9XeI
Edit: Oops, didn't notice it was already discussed. Well, I'll leave the post up anyway, for the glory of the Many.
Post by: Egan_BW on February 04, 2019, 11:28:04 am
Post by: Dunamisdeos on February 04, 2019, 07:12:08 pm
That said, it would be cool to have some kind of hive-minded modifier for a pop that wasn't a civ-wide thing. A partial hive-mind sort of thing you could genetically engineer into a species that provides more minor bonuses. Would be good flavor stuff.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 04, 2019, 07:46:32 pm
Of course, even deeper then that, systems to intermix different empires, having less clear lines between species and empire and between separate empires would be cool. It was where I was hoping stellaris would go, when it was first announced. But it'd probably be a very different game.
Post by: Rolan7 on February 04, 2019, 07:52:00 pm
I think they're left over from pre-2.2. Like the "resource reprocessors" on captured starbases. They're still renamed trade posts like before 2.2, but are actually useless since they only collect trade now. The appropriate replacement would be solar panels, but I understand why that isn't automatic.
Really they should be auto-destroyed, or clearly marked as unusable. Or leave them as resource reprocessors, but make them actually do something again.
I like the minor touch that starbase solar panels need an unshielded star to be built. I don't think multiples help, sadly (space empires 4 did that).
Post by: Flying Dice on February 05, 2019, 08:49:01 pm
A good suggestion I saw to avoid genocide is to subjugate instead of conquer. I could even release the sector in question as a vassal (Only possible when there are non-hive pops living there!) which would presumably be pretty loyal and cooperative.
The in-universe justification for forced-purging is that hive-drones aren't smart enough to tolerate "others", and automatically react as if to an infection... or something to digest.
As for displacement, it's obviously an atrocity. Even if all the displaced find new homes in accepting nations like the United Nations of Earth, which I *think* is happening. Just... seems like a different tier of atrocity than literal deathcamps or farms.
Speaking of, the United Nations of Earth tried to kick me out of the federation as the "Genocidal" modifier grew to -618. The other federation member voted no, since they only had a -153 Genocide modifier, for a net of +67 after trust and mutual rivalries.
The kicker: The United Nations of Earth left their own federation in disgust. It's kinda sad but also pretty funny. Ugh, I would have released the sector if I'd known it was an option (though I'm pretty sure all the drones would die off). At this point they've almost all been relocated, anyway.
(Not that the citizens should be punished for their government's choices, but the nation did attack *me* without provocation. I'm set to defensive wars only, and didn't bombard.)
TBH it seems like the displacement option is less "send the refugees somewhere else" and more "Trail of Tears but more so".
Post by: EnigmaticHat on February 06, 2019, 12:27:59 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on February 06, 2019, 12:35:03 pm
*desire for Megacorp intensifies*
(But I absolutely refuse until I at *least* make it to an end-game crisis)
Post by: Sartain on February 07, 2019, 05:18:56 am
A good suggestion I saw to avoid genocide is to subjugate instead of conquer. I could even release the sector in question as a vassal (Only possible when there are non-hive pops living there!) which would presumably be pretty loyal and cooperative.
The in-universe justification for forced-purging is that hive-drones aren't smart enough to tolerate "others", and automatically react as if to an infection... or something to digest.
As for displacement, it's obviously an atrocity. Even if all the displaced find new homes in accepting nations like the United Nations of Earth, which I *think* is happening. Just... seems like a different tier of atrocity than literal deathcamps or farms.
Speaking of, the United Nations of Earth tried to kick me out of the federation as the "Genocidal" modifier grew to -618. The other federation member voted no, since they only had a -153 Genocide modifier, for a net of +67 after trust and mutual rivalries.
The kicker: The United Nations of Earth left their own federation in disgust. It's kinda sad but also pretty funny. Ugh, I would have released the sector if I'd known it was an option (though I'm pretty sure all the drones would die off). At this point they've almost all been relocated, anyway.
(Not that the citizens should be punished for their government's choices, but the nation did attack *me* without provocation. I'm set to defensive wars only, and didn't bombard.)
TBH it seems like the displacement option is less "send the refugees somewhere else" and more "Trail of Tears but more so".
I've always seen it more as a situation where the undesirables are displaced to the fringes of their current society, thus being unable to sustain themselves by anything other than base scavenging in ruins and wastelands, slowly dying out. The pops that migrate are the few lucky ones that manage to get out, the rest suffer and die in the toxic wastelands/slag deserts/whatever of their parent planet.
But I suppose I never did read the tooltip...
Post by: E. Albright on February 07, 2019, 02:17:15 pm
Post by: Dorsidwarf on February 07, 2019, 09:04:09 pm
Post by: Trekkin on February 07, 2019, 10:08:51 pm
Maybe hive minds who are friendly with lots of other species should be able to set non-hive pops in empire to a living status something akin to bio-trophies. Hive Resident or something, where they dont really grow and they arent very happy and they dont produce much, but theyre alive and not being told they have three weeks to leave or be eaten.
A more general option for leaving physiologically incompatible pops alone would certainly be nice. I can see a rationale for locking it behind research to either build a mini-Hive Mind for the drones or mark the non-Hive Minded with "do not eat" pheromones, but not for it just being totally impossible.
Post by: Rolan7 on February 07, 2019, 10:34:13 pm
Making vassals really isn't so bad, in my experience. I'm sure it's unoptimal, but it's hardly suicidal once you've established yourself. Less busy-work, too.
Then again I still haven't reached the end-game yet. I love Paradox games, including the mid, but I always get the urge to try a different situation before I get to the "endgame".
Post by: Criptfeind on February 08, 2019, 06:51:07 am
Maybe hive minds who are friendly with lots of other species should be able to set non-hive pops in empire to a living status something akin to bio-trophies. Hive Resident or something, where they dont really grow and they arent very happy and they dont produce much, but theyre alive and not being told they have three weeks to leave or be eaten.
There's a mod that allows this, expanded hiveminds or something. It's even better then the rogue servitors, because you can choose what you allow the multiminded to do. Do you pamper and control them like a servitor where they do nothing but you get unity, do you let them work as research assistants, their strange and simple but many minds helping you come up with new avenues to explore (and replace that unity with research) do you allow them to volunteer for some of the less dangerous posts in the military (military bonuses) or do you essentially let them live as normal citizens with normal jobs (so long as those jobs aren't too dangerous.) and then they work the tile like a normal pop. It was a pretty cool mod, not sure if it was updated for 2.2
Post by: Sime on February 08, 2019, 09:46:52 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 08, 2019, 10:03:23 am
I notice that the game is 75% off again, but the steam review page is just a red wall of down-thumbs. Will they make stellaris great again?Give it a few years maybe, PI have been turning away lots of customers recently, even for ones that haven't even come out yet like Imperator. Then you have ones like CK2 holy fury doing pretty well... Hard to say really. PI are disappointing but still hold a tight grip on the grand strategy map painting market so they've got time to turn things around in a commercial alexiad
Post by: Telgin on February 08, 2019, 10:15:32 am
And then the newest patch reintroduced precinct house spam and they've yet to get the AI to build a functional economy in 2.2.
I have no interest in Imperator, but if I did, I absolutely wouldn't buy it until after I'd read a lot of reviews. To be fair, I never preorder anything and always wait to read reviews after buying a couple of other very disappointing AAA titles on launch day, but I'd be extra skeptical of anything new from Paradox.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 08, 2019, 11:27:56 am
Will they make stellaris great again?
In short: I don't think so.
Right now stellaris is broken as fuck in many ways. I think they are capable of fixing the worst of the bugs and outright broken features, except maybe AI, which was bad when stellaris started and is worse today, that might be a "bug" or "obviously broken feature" that won't ever get fixed. Assuming they step back from the endless treadmill of dlc on top of dlc and actually fix the fucking game for once, there's hope for the bugs and stuff. But even if all the bugs and outright broken things are fixed, the game will still be bad. Simply put a lot of the implementation of core ideas is trash. Trade, population, jobs. There's just so many ideas in stellaris that are okay or even good ideas, but the way they've been made is unfun and sorta shit to actually play. (imo of course...). A lot of these issues would be easy enough to fix, probably easier then fixing the AI. But I no longer hold any hope that they will actually be fixed.
Well, I guess I hold one hope. Martin seemed pretty arrogant, and I didn't really have much hope that he'd ever go back and fix unbroken but just bad game design he made. Now that he's no longer the lead on stellaris maybe whoever replaces him will be able to reflect on all the bad decisions made and change them for the better. But, yeah, total crapshoot. We'll see I guess.
Post by: Teneb on February 08, 2019, 11:36:39 am
Well, I guess I hold one hope. Martin seemed pretty arrogant, and I didn't really have much hope that he'd ever go back and fix unbroken but just bad game design he made. Now that he's no longer the lead on stellaris maybe whoever replaces him will be able to reflect on all the bad decisions made and change them for the better. But, yeah, total crapshoot. We'll see I guess.Considering Martin himself unmade a lot of the design decisions of his predecessor, it's not without precedent. There is hope, but dunno if it will happen.
At least we can hope they un-fuck the implementation of the various ideas.
Post by: Telgin on February 08, 2019, 11:37:23 am
Post by: Telgin on February 13, 2019, 10:41:25 pm
I just tried out the new pop growth mechanics with a diverse empire, and yep, they're kind of stupid. Much worse than I expected, even in 2.2.5. Life-seed + multiple species = terrible idea. Since you have 0% habilitability on most planets, your species gets outcompeted in every case, so it never gets chosen to grow anywhere but your homeworld. Worse, it appears that it also causes them to enter decline for some reason. I actually don't know if that's intended or just a bug, but I quit that game once I signed the migration treaty and saw what happened.
It was just as well, since I'd screwed up a few other things. Life-seeded + Utopian Abundance + anything not a gaia world = recipe for consumer goods hell. I expected it to merely be a challenge, but the deficit was so severe I could never hope to maintain it early to mid game. It's kind of a waste there anyway.
Post by: Cruxador on February 13, 2019, 10:49:03 pm
Post by: Telgin on February 13, 2019, 10:59:35 pm
Post by: Chosrau on February 14, 2019, 03:21:29 am
Post by: Broseph Stalin on February 14, 2019, 07:46:26 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 14, 2019, 08:23:08 am
I just tried out the new pop growth mechanics with a diverse empire, and yep, they're kind of stupid. Much worse than I expected, even in 2.2.5. Life-seed + multiple species = terrible idea. Since you have 0% habilitability on most planets, your species gets outcompeted in every case, so it never gets chosen to grow anywhere but your homeworld.you WANT your 0% habitability species to grow on planets where they will cost double to maintain? I used to get annoyed by the old system because it would choose pops for planet growth regardless of habitability, I'd end up with species growing on planets where they have 20% or worse habitability and have to manually move them off.
Can't you manually choose which pops grow? I'm playing life seeded xenophobes and it's how I make sure I have enough of my own race to do specialist jobs and not so many slaves that they cause unemployment.Only if you have population controls enabled, which you can't do if you're egalitarian iirc.
Post by: Sartain on February 14, 2019, 08:52:24 am
Can't you manually choose which pops grow? I'm playing life seeded xenophobes and it's how I make sure I have enough of my own race to do specialist jobs and not so many slaves that they cause unemployment.
I'm pretty sure you need at least some habitability for that to work. So as soon as you research any of those techs it should be good but until then your Life-Seeded pops will die out, presumably because the planet atmosphere is lethal to them.
Post by: Paul on February 14, 2019, 09:36:02 am
Post by: Telgin on February 14, 2019, 01:58:27 pm
I just tried out the new pop growth mechanics with a diverse empire, and yep, they're kind of stupid. Much worse than I expected, even in 2.2.5. Life-seed + multiple species = terrible idea. Since you have 0% habilitability on most planets, your species gets outcompeted in every case, so it never gets chosen to grow anywhere but your homeworld.you WANT your 0% habitability species to grow on planets where they will cost double to maintain? I used to get annoyed by the old system because it would choose pops for planet growth regardless of habitability, I'd end up with species growing on planets where they have 20% or worse habitability and have to manually move them off.
Not exactly, and I totally understand not wanting new pops with bad habitability to grow on planets. The problem here was that I claimed about 5 worlds before I met anyone else, and had 10-20 pops on each. When I signed the migration treaty, those pops started dying off instead of better pops just growing in the future.
What's even more strange, is that they were dying off at the same rate as extermination, at -5 growth per month. That almost entirely countered the pop growth of the new pops. That much at least doesn't sound like it's working as intended.
Quote
Can't you manually choose which pops grow? I'm playing life seeded xenophobes and it's how I make sure I have enough of my own race to do specialist jobs and not so many slaves that they cause unemployment.Only if you have population controls enabled, which you can't do if you're egalitarian iirc.
Right. I was trying to play as egalitarian federation builders since I wanted to do the opposite of my usual imperial xenophobes, so pop controls were off.
Are they declining because they're dying off or because they're emigrating?
It's probably supposed to represent emigration, but with the way immigration and emigration works in 2.2 it just meant that they vanished and presumably died.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 14, 2019, 02:07:37 pm
Post by: Paul on February 14, 2019, 05:50:56 pm
Post by: Telgin on February 14, 2019, 11:01:29 pm
And I was wrong earlier about the pops declining as if being exterminated. They actually were just declining at -5 per month, not the -35 for extermination. Still, it canceled out pop growth and made the pops die off, which is still annoying.
Trying again with a non Life-seeded species is working much better, and the new pops are just being selected by habitability like expected instead of my primary species dying off.
Post by: LoSboccacc on February 15, 2019, 03:37:38 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 15, 2019, 07:21:03 am
am I doing something wrong or is it so that early game has nothing much happening beyond click trough anomalies and the occasional space amoebas? ???early game excitement depends entirely on how densely populated your map is.
Post by: Rolan7 on February 15, 2019, 12:54:23 pm
It's still an extremely *important* phase, though. Expanding ASAP, even for relatively tall play, lets you choose profitable, defensible systems. My last play was tall Inward Perfection, aka no offensive wars, so the initial expansion was even more crucial: 3 science ships, 3 constructors. Expanding with tendrils so as to cordon off areas for later expansion, limited by influence. Had some serious sprawl modifier for a while, heh.
Post by: Zangi on February 15, 2019, 01:29:25 pm
Inherently, only 1 species on a planet are allowed to grow at a time.
1a. In vanilla settings, what population gets chosen to grow is heavily weighted toward the smallest population on the planet.
1b. There is a negative modifier on weights for low habitability, but in vanilla settings, is not a big enough factor to override the bonus from 'choose-the smallest-population'.
1c. The capital is the only planet which has a 'native species' weight modifier.
What naturally happens is that an empire with no population controls and its living space capacity filled, will have its native species decline in proportion to however many other species reside in its borders.
Equality at its finest. Enjoy low habitability species living where they don't have any right to.
Though, this is 2 months old and may have been slightly changed.
Post by: Telgin on February 15, 2019, 03:26:56 pm
Post by: Boltgun on February 18, 2019, 10:38:02 am
Also it keep sending miner robots on farm jobs. The game don't give a damn about racial traits.
Not that it matter now because everyone evolved into cyborgs and I got love poems from a black hole. This ride has no brakes.
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 18, 2019, 11:38:11 am
Also it keep sending miner robots on farm jobs. The game don't give a damn about racial traits.Is your food income low? I had this happening in my game and found it was because the game was weighting farming jobs much higher than miners because my food income was negative if I moved the robots back to mining
Post by: Telgin on February 18, 2019, 11:58:11 am
Related, can robots not work as technicians without the droids tech? In a couple of games I've seen newly built robots be unemployed when there were open technician jobs, but I assumed robots could work all worker jobs like that without restriction.
Unrelated, I saw the War in Heaven glitch out yesterday for the first time. Or at least I think it was a glitch. The two fallen empires awakened like normal, declared each other rivals like normal, and I got the prompt to join one nor remain independent, as normal. However, they never declared war on me, and the league of independent empires never formed. I'm guessing this might not be a glitch and might just be the AI being bad, since the wiki implies that only AI empires over 20K fleet power are even considered, and I'm not sure any even had that much fleet power.
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 18, 2019, 12:39:46 pm
Post by: Boltgun on February 18, 2019, 02:27:52 pm
Also it keep sending miner robots on farm jobs. The game don't give a damn about racial traits.Is your food income low? I had this happening in my game and found it was because the game was weighting farming jobs much higher than miners because my food income was negative if I moved the robots back to mining
It is high, but so are my minerals. Also it is on 2.2.4 so that might explain that. My robots do not work as technicians without droid either.
Either way, I'm going to summon that worm; and with it do some heresy that will make xeno-compatibility look like hand holding.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on February 18, 2019, 04:22:43 pm
edit:
Unrelated, I finally feel like I get Le Guin intuitively. I have my core worlds prioritizing native pops and a sector of thrall worlds generating raw materials to feed the refinery worlds, those thrall worlds are also cranking out slave clerks and servants to boost amenities and trade value where I need it. I'm playing the market by purchasing cheap resources internally market then selling them dear to other nations in trade deals, when I hit the alloy cap I set up a monthly deal to flood the market so I can buy huge quantities for cheap when I'm doing megastructures or filling out the fleet. Now that I'm comfortable I guess paradox is going to change everything in the next big update.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on February 19, 2019, 01:43:15 am
Post by: Cruxador on February 19, 2019, 02:40:50 am
"we thought having a dozen different resources would be good but its bad, now there's just one resource: stuff"It's like Wiz himself, speaking to us from beyond the grave.
Post by: E. Albright on February 19, 2019, 11:55:42 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 19, 2019, 12:00:29 pm
Post by: E. Albright on February 19, 2019, 12:01:22 pm
Post by: Telgin on February 19, 2019, 12:53:38 pm
I've never declared war on primitives, so I'm not sure how you'd fix it. Do you not have the option to set their species as being undesirables, or does that not purge pops during occupation?
Post by: E. Albright on February 19, 2019, 08:45:08 pm
Post by: Cruxador on February 20, 2019, 12:18:06 am
They're undesirables by default. My understanding is that you're not allowed to purge when you're only occupying; you need to have full control to purge. However, there's no war to end or anything - they're just there, so if they're not purged now, they'll never be. The occupied planet has built up a drone garrison and the meatbags aren't allowed to breed, but other than that we're living in harmony with them - well, aside from the abduction shuttles, but even getting rid of the observation post doesn't seem to change anything...Isn't breeding prohibition a form of purge?
Post by: Telgin on February 20, 2019, 09:22:33 am
Unrelated, but can you only build one non-habitat megastructure in a single system? I don't recall it ever being that way before, but I found out that I can't build the galactic assembly megastructure (or whatever it's called) "due to existing megastructure" in my home system. I built a science nexus there like 50 years prior and the galactic assembly must be built in your capital system, so I can't put it anywhere else. Really annoying that the one time I play an empire that has a use for it, this happens.
Admittedly, moving your capital system isn't as much of a headache in 2.2 since there aren't exclusive building upgrades for the capital planet like there used to be, but it's still a waste of like 200 influence to do it.
Also annoying that in the course of 250 in game years, I was never able to find an empire willing to federate with me for the achievement. Never got acceptance past -30 or so for anyone, and while I can't tell if that means the'd never accept the offer, I never got any to accept it with that level of acceptance.
Heh, except for the machine uprising in one of my protectorates, which finally triggered the league of unaligned nations against the war in heaven 30 years after the war started. I start to fight them to protect my protectorate, at which point the game decides that the new empire with over 20K fleet power is a valid choice for the league, and gives me a popup box asking if I want to admit them to the league. The machine uprising I'm currently at war with. I said no, since I'm pretty sure it wouldn't give me the achievement anyway and frustratingly still had to declare war on the awakened empires despite -500 opinion because by this point I had 1.3 million fleet power and they knew they couldn't beat me. I'm pretty sure they had no ships left either, since apparently fallen and awakened empires don't produce dark matter or zro, and so can't build new ships.
Post by: Boltgun on February 20, 2019, 10:35:20 am
Them being xenophile help of course. That said the xenophobes empires federated themselves too in my galaxy to counter us.
Either way the victory screen popped up unexpectedly because I set the end year too low. I did not even had time to finish a dyson sphere. It does not really matter since I'll continue to grab the megastructures achievements, but darn.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 20, 2019, 10:41:44 pm
The imperialists declared war but our defenses are too strong and there's only one hyperlane so they refuse to actually attack us. They have fanatic militarist and we don't so I think they're trying to just win via war exhaustion, which is smart I guess in a real war but this is a video and this is bullshit.
Fucking attack me already, this isn't entertaining at all.
I lured them in but the combat seems a lot different, a lot of really stupid shit. The FTL no-go upgrade really should be available earlier, it's pretty fucking stupid that I can heavily fortify a chokepoint and then watch the enemy just bunnyhop over it and attack the systems that aren't hulked out.
EDIT: Dumped that game now that I've got the hang of 2.2. Trying a new angle, fanatic spiritualist militarists with life-seeded and feudal. Gonna roll up on some pre-FTL races like (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFeCG43vT3k)
Post by: Boltgun on February 21, 2019, 04:06:36 am
After paying the ascension point, I got a 99 month engineering project to evolve the main species, considering I was playing a mechanist intelligent species with a bunch of research labs I guess it would have much slower otherwise.
Then all the pop turned into synths, the basic one. Not even the enhanced one I already have in my colonies. That a massive downgrade to my worm touched cyborgs. Not to mention that by the time I got all of this done, the only bonus I see (habitability) is useless as my tech and upgrade already pushed all the planets to 100%.
Then the spiritualist fallen empire was pissy on me and declared war. I was already fighting the contingency and a federation war, because of course those idiots must declare war to the other league while being attacked by roboterrorists. So I had to capitulate and let my leader die. The FE is so dead after I dealt with the crisis.
Speaking of the contingency it triggered nothing special, I still had to deal with synths disguised as... synths ? Cool stuff.
Now I need to upgrade my pops but I'm tempted to simply reapply the cyborg template back, if I can. I can't really afford an engineering project with the crisis knocking at my door.
In comparison, on my previous game, I went full genetic on the Commonwealth and that was cheaper for better benefits.
Post by: Boltgun on February 21, 2019, 08:22:13 am
It's a great way to use your starbases to build up but when it gets complicated (like during the contingency clusterpoo) I end up with dozen of 0 fleets on the manager and ships scattered everywhere, it's like the game forgot what's what at random.
Also the fed fleet became fully mine for some reason and the fed made another fleet. Not to mention how unreadable the fleet manager is.
As a whole the bugs made the game is super frustrating, I was planning to buy the DLCs but I'm considering ditching it.
Post by: Telgin on February 21, 2019, 09:47:21 am
Fucking attack me already, this isn't entertaining at all.
This could have been a bug unrelated to you having strong stations. I almost never see wars, but supposedly there's a bug that frequently causes empires to never send fleets to prosecute wars even if they have enough fleet power.
Quote
I lured them in but the combat seems a lot different, a lot of really stupid shit. The FTL no-go upgrade really should be available earlier, it's pretty fucking stupid that I can heavily fortify a chokepoint and then watch the enemy just bunnyhop over it and attack the systems that aren't hulked out.
Yep, I saw some discussion about where the developers were considering making it an automatic tech for this reason.
Also, how do you manage your fleet ? I try to set it up on the fleet manager and then reinforce.
It's a great way to use your starbases to build up but when it gets complicated (like during the contingency clusterpoo) I end up with dozen of 0 fleets on the manager and ships scattered everywhere, it's like the game forgot what's what at random.
Also the fed fleet became fully mine for some reason and the fed made another fleet. Not to mention how unreadable the fleet manager is.
As a whole the bugs made the game is super frustrating, I was planning to buy the DLCs but I'm considering ditching it.
Yeah, there are a lot of bugs with the merging fleets and the fleet manager. If you ever tell the reinforcing ships to do anything before they merge with the fleets they're reinforcing, they end up as separate fleets in the manager. If you manually merge fleets, you end up with 0-size fleets. I haven't seen anything else prevent merging from working, but I've read where other people have had the reinforcing fleets getting stopped for other reasons and causing similar bugs.
Also, reinforcing fleets love to suicide against the enemy on the way to the main fleet if you don't babysit them.
And... yeah, synthetic ascension is variously bugged and underpowered. I just saw a screenshot where a synthetically ascended empire couldn't colonize anything because colony ships still required food, for example. Machine empires got a buff in the 2.2.5 beta patch to at least address some problems with energy upkeep, but I'd honestly be surprised if synthetically ascended empires got the same buffs.
I really like this game and have played it for like 700 hours, but the game is very buggy. My scientists keep getting randomly shuffled without my input, or get assigned to multiple slots, for example. That bug has been around for years at the least. The devs promised they'd spend more time fixing bugs after 2.2 had so many problems, but then kind of backtracked on that. We'll see if 2.3 ends up being a bigger bugfix release instead of another DLC with more bugs.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on February 21, 2019, 10:11:47 am
I can see no reason why it shouldn't be. Maybe the planetary version should be researchable because that's the real bastard. If the enemy has to break the defending army or hang out not repairing their fleets while bombing a world to 50% devastation that's pretty formidable.
Yep, I saw some discussion about where the developers were considering making it an automatic tech for this reason.
I was going to comment on the AI but then I remember that it was so terrible I had to get a mod before I could stomach it.
Post by: Boltgun on February 21, 2019, 10:43:15 am
Got 1 contingency hub down, the cybrex came in and took another. Freeing one front away from a fed ally just in time for me to move on another.
Every time I fight a crisis stack my fleet is in ruin. But I recover faster thanks to all the refugees coming to my place from the other side of the galaxy (I got +700 alloys a month), plus the gates keep the shipyards 1/2 systems away from the chokepoints. Not to mention that I snatched both dark matter and living metal in the process.
My fed is mostly safe, the other coalition however...
In comparison the praethorin was a joke. I won by nibbling a random station and researching the missile then spamming it in their face.
Post by: Telgin on February 21, 2019, 10:59:21 am
I'm kind of disappointed that I've never seen the Cybrex. Even in the first time I fought the Contingency in a medium galaxy, where the Contingency did substantial damage and made me fear I was going to lose, I guess we managed to just barely avoid them sterilizing enough of the galaxy to make the Cybrex spawn.
The Prethoryn and Unbidden fleets are way easier to destroy, in my experience. Unbidden at least seem to have short ranged weapons, so kinetic artillery and neutron launchers can destroy their ships before they can even retaliate. I've lost 2 battleships and one titan across dozens of engagements with them in my current game. The Prethoryn were kind of similar from what I recall, but I've only faced them once back before the strike craft buff and when they were bugged out and couldn't expand. The Unbidden and Prethoryn are much scarier if they get to expand a lot, from what I gather.
Post by: E. Albright on February 21, 2019, 02:32:48 pm
It used to be, at least. Pretty sure. Does it still cause pops to decline? If so, that's a slow way to get rid of them.
Nope, no decline. Everything is completely static. I can't build anything, nothing grows, etc. They're feeding themselves but their food income isn't listed on the empire. The only benefit I have from having the hellholes is my abduction teams in the observation posts (getting rid of those did nothing, BTW) can still pull in 10 Society research per month. So it still looks like permanent occupation. It's... annoying, but we seem to have adopted the fleshy vermin as pets or something. So buggy.
Post by: Telgin on February 21, 2019, 03:01:55 pm
Post by: Vgray on February 21, 2019, 09:46:20 pm
Oh, X3 Terran Conflict/ Albion Prelude era factions in particular. Wait there's a better way to say that. Pre Rebirth/X4 factions.
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 21, 2019, 09:50:10 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Darkening Kaos on February 21, 2019, 10:25:28 pm
Proof-reading: It's not just for
Post by: EnigmaticHat on February 21, 2019, 11:20:37 pm
Oh...Wait... how much of that was scripted? Does the game spawn pre-space Kerbils?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Shooer on February 21, 2019, 11:32:22 pm
Post by: QuakeIV on February 22, 2019, 12:42:06 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on February 22, 2019, 02:01:25 am
Post by: Egan_BW on February 22, 2019, 03:54:38 am
Oh...Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Am I reading that wrong, or are you playing as the Pa'anuri?
Post by: Boltgun on February 22, 2019, 04:08:00 am
I got the third contingency HUB down along with it's fleets, but my economy is on its knees. And the fallen empire declared war again making a beeline to my systems. I'd call it FUN but this is so much a hassle to play at this point.
I got a few economic issues that is to be expected when you push ship production over capacity. Rare resources however, are impossible to manage. Every single building upgrade use it as upkeep and raffineries take one building slot for only one job, and strain mineral even further. Building slots are a rare and finite asset in the endgame that make compensating for problems impossible.
The refugees are causing overpopulation and unemployment. Overpopulation is only a mild issue because I got a lot of luxury that negate effects. But unemployment is terrible with that crime event that pop all the damn time. It's not even the economic strain that get me. Just that stupid popup window that interrupt me all the damn time !
I'm trying to build a habitat to offload the problem but I'm activating purges and will kill the refugees if I have to. My empire's values be damned.
Managing planet is also a pain in the neck. You have to babysit constantly, all the time. Even when they are full. Look away for a second, you come back to bunch of issues.
I'm only going for the contingency achievement, then I'm moving to 2.1, or Endless Space.
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 22, 2019, 07:45:20 am
This is mostly mods. The base game has a Kerbol system but one of the mods I use changes the initializer to mirror the actual KSP system and put a race of frog dudes on the planet as early space primitives. I watched them do a moon (mun) landing, experiment with radio, then a few decades later they actually radioed the observation station. That is another mod, adding more primitive interactions. We acknowledged them and told them they must serve the empire. They launched an attack with about 2 dozen primitive ships equipped with railguns which we killed. When that happened they decided to self-immolate rather than be slaves. So almost all of that was scripted by mods.Oh...Wait... how much of that was scripted? Does the game spawn pre-space Kerbils?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
That's correct. This game I'm playing as the Pa'anuri Supremacy, a bunch of psychic slaving assholes.Oh...Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Am I reading that wrong, or are you playing as the Pa'anuri?
Post by: Cthulhu on February 22, 2019, 08:38:03 am
Post by: Telgin on February 22, 2019, 09:26:52 am
I got a few economic issues that is to be expected when you push ship production over capacity. Rare resources however, are impossible to manage. Every single building upgrade use it as upkeep and raffineries take one building slot for only one job, and strain mineral even further. Building slots are a rare and finite asset in the endgame that make compensating for problems impossible.
If you have much of an energy surplus, you're probably better off buying the rare resources on the market. Or at least some of them. It's pretty much impossible to synthesize enough of them to upgrade everything, and they're surprisingly cheap to buy. In my last game I had an automatic monthly buy order for 25 or so rare gases, plus a few motes and crystals.
Quote
The refugees are causing overpopulation and unemployment. Overpopulation is only a mild issue because I got a lot of luxury that negate effects. But unemployment is terrible with that crime event that pop all the damn time. It's not even the economic strain that get me. Just that stupid popup window that interrupt me all the damn time !
I'm trying to build a habitat to offload the problem but I'm activating purges and will kill the refugees if I have to. My empire's values be damned.
What living standards are you using? From what I can tell you don't get the annoying unemployment popup if you're using Utopian Abundance, which makes it a lot easier to ignore unemployment but requires you to be egalitarian and costs a lot of consumer goods.
If you're not using Utopian Abundance then you might want to consider turning off acceptance of refugees and turn on the planetary decision to stop growth. Depending on your ethics it may annoy some factions, but that's the only way I could manage it in my non-egalitarian empires.
Quote
Managing planet is also a pain in the neck. You have to babysit constantly, all the time. Even when they are full. Look away for a second, you come back to bunch of issues.
Yeah, agreed here. After trashing the Unbidden I tried to finish the War in Heaven in my current game because it finally triggered properly at 2480 or so, but it dragged on for close to a hundred years because the FEs ran out of ships and I could no longer destroy anything to make their war exhaustion go up enough to force peace. I started conquering their planets to just outright destroy their empires, which eventually worked, but I had so many planets and pops I just completely gave up on managing them. Honestly, I gave up before then when I had about 25 planets in my own empire.
I did what I could to manage them, but it just became so tedious I did what I could to set up building slots but halfway ignored overcrowding and unemployment and then completely ignored it.
In the process, I was surprised to learn that overcrowding leads to much larger stability problems (up to -20 looks like?) than just stopping planetary growth (-5).
I also had to eventually give up on that game. The War in Haven glitched out at the end too, and never ended, so I couldn't declare victory. I got the announcement that the War in Heaven had ended, but the victory screen kept telling me that I couldn't declare victory during the War in Heaven. Man, I now understand why people say they've never seen this even work properly, even if this is the first time it's screwed up like this for me.
Post by: Boltgun on February 22, 2019, 11:34:56 am
Post by: Cthulhu on February 23, 2019, 09:29:20 pm
Playing DE machines in test branch be like
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/756FQy7RwYk/maxresdefault.jpg)
My economy is insane and I haven't even gotten around to specializing my planets. Currently steamrolling the first organic race we've found, beelining their planets and trashing them.
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 23, 2019, 10:15:31 pm
I give up. Setting to utopian tanked my goods which tanked my mineral with tanked my energy and my crystals tanked.Why would you set to Utopian Abundance if you don't have the consumer goods to handle it?
Post by: Broseph Stalin on February 23, 2019, 11:35:39 pm
Post by: EnigmaticHat on February 24, 2019, 03:55:39 am
Post by: Boltgun on February 24, 2019, 01:08:51 pm
I give up. Setting to utopian tanked my goods which tanked my mineral with tanked my energy and my crystals tanked.Why would you set to Utopian Abundance if you don't have the consumer goods to handle it?
To make the popups stop. It worked at the cost of everything. Still worth it.
Post by: PTTG?? on February 24, 2019, 01:51:29 pm
Oh...Wait... how much of that was scripted? Does the game spawn pre-space Kerbils?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'm pretty sure they were just trying to launch all their cities into space.
Post by: Majestic7 on February 24, 2019, 02:10:21 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on February 24, 2019, 02:19:46 pm
Alternatively play servitors and genocide the organics by giving them mandatory really comfy living conditions.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 24, 2019, 02:25:24 pm
I don't think I'm gonna continue my DE run though. They're so broken in test branch it's not fun anymore. I'm at 2293 and at this point I'm the end game crisis. When I declare war on someone his allies break their treaties. I attacked a four-empire federation and threw them in the dumpster. My economy is so good I can spam specialist buildings on planets and not even put a dent in my income.
I basically won, the only thing left is just the slow, tedious process of actually exterminating everyone, which isn't very fun after the first few empires.
Post by: Cruxador on February 24, 2019, 03:25:16 pm
I hate the fact I'm troubled with even fictional genocide, so I don't play murder machines or fanatic purifiers. Kind of silly, isn't it? It is the same with most games, I can't bring myself into playing comic book villains.That's very cute and pure, too be honest.
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 24, 2019, 03:45:18 pm
I hate the fact I'm troubled with even fictional genocide, so I don't play murder machines or fanatic purifiers. Kind of silly, isn't it? It is the same with most games, I can't bring myself into playing comic book villains.I enjoy playing as enigmatic fanatical purifiers. The last game of stellaris I actually enjoyed was one where I disabled communication spread events, and using the hyperlane disconnection/generation mod retreated into a nebula before cutting it out from the rest of the galaxy, with our only expansion being a wormhole connected nebula on the other side of the galaxy (but by wormhole we were next-door neighbours). I spent three hundred years isolated inside that nebula peacefully building up a series of ringworlds and psi-enabled warfleets until at last I reconnected with the outside world. Spent the rest of the game as a more dangerous version of xenophobic isolationists which occasionally ventured forth from the dark to clear a few planets, upset the galactic power balance and then return to the dust & dark. Like exceptionally cranky old age pensioners
Post by: Telgin on February 24, 2019, 04:12:52 pm
I hate the fact I'm troubled with even fictional genocide, so I don't play murder machines or fanatic purifiers. Kind of silly, isn't it? It is the same with most games, I can't bring myself into playing comic book villains.
I'm the same. Relatedly, this is why I really can't bring myself to declare war in Stellaris at all, although I should probably be a little more proactive with putting dangerous empires in their place when they start declaring war on everyone else.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 24, 2019, 08:37:05 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0Nub57X0AI3U8Y.png)
Post by: forsaken1111 on February 24, 2019, 08:54:09 pm
Ah, good. Glad I started a federation with these guys.Guessing you're on the beta branch? There is a known bug causing the AI to overvalue the precinct buildings. It tanks their economy. It's one reason gestalts seem so OP in the beta branch, they can't build precincts
Post by: Telgin on February 24, 2019, 11:41:47 pm
In any case, I'm wondering if the AI doing stupid things like this consistently is an indication that the way the AI works under the hood just needs to be changed. Supposedly this was caused by the developers adjusting the weights for picking what building to build and by putting an arbitrary limit on some buildings. Precinct houses were supposed to be limited to 2, but the math was wrong and they just build 3, limited only because there's an arbitrary restriction to keep them from building more.
Maybe picking buildings randomly just isn't the right way to do this.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 25, 2019, 12:27:58 am
The precinct thing also really messes up the war game in concert with the way war exhaustion works. Part of the reason I gave up on my Skynet game was I couldn't actually exterminate any empires because invading was impossible with 20+ defense armies on every planet and bombing them to tomb worlds takes too long, so I'd end up hitting auto-peace even when I was overwhelming them.
Post by: Cruxador on February 25, 2019, 01:36:09 pm
That's a really nice planet for them to be ruining, too.Well, I guess that precinct ones in particular hard to weight, since it's a bit more complicated how they relate to production, and if you just go "if there's a lot of crime, build until there isn't" then that makes criminal corporations sad.
In any case, I'm wondering if the AI doing stupid things like this consistently is an indication that the way the AI works under the hood just needs to be changed. Supposedly this was caused by the developers adjusting the weights for picking what building to build and by putting an arbitrary limit on some buildings. Precinct houses were supposed to be limited to 2, but the math was wrong and they just build 3, limited only because there's an arbitrary restriction to keep them from building more.
Maybe picking buildings randomly just isn't the right way to do this.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 26, 2019, 03:23:40 pm
Ive gone back to determined exterminators now that the AI is working better with the mod. Unfortunately the first AI empire showed up at 2207 and I was already scaling up to kill the mining drone plague. The mushroom guys didnt stand a chance, we just rolled over them. Billions of years of evolution, their first interstellar economy, on the cusp of being a galactic civilization. All gone in a couple years. Dont even remember their name.
Post by: Rolan7 on February 26, 2019, 03:42:13 pm
Quote from: 2.2.5 beta
* The Repugnant/Uncanny trait now has less of an effect on pops avoiding amenity producing jobsSo my repugnant hivemind run would probably be a lot less tedious now. I still decided to abandon it since, yaknow, accidental genocide made the galaxy hate me.
* Maintenance drone job priority now considers amenity level of the planet
* Simple drones now ponder the empire level food/mineral/energy income when choosing a job
Also:
Quote from: 2.2.5
* Robots with Emotion Emulators are now more likely to become maintenance dronesI mean, yeah, that's how the system's supposed to work, right? :P Glad they're working out the kinks though.
Speaking of, I was wondering why my FanAuth Xenophile neighbors liked me so much. Xenophilia applies to robots, which is nice, but then I saw
Quote from: Mandasura Union, a Decadent Hierarchy
Willing Servants: +20>.< Migration treaties with Rogue Servitors should be a thing...
Okay so now it's my goal to nonviolently convince them to let us pamper them. Which means growing large enough to vassalize and eventually integrate. Hrm, reminds me of my Blorg plays... I love their pops, but their silly government is in the way.
Normally there's the moral problem that people deserve self-determination... But these are fanatic authoritarians. They don't believe in that.
I'm pretty sure Egalitarian empires are as horrified of Rogue Servitors as Authoritarians are pleased, heh. I don't think anyone in this Tiny galaxy is egalitarian, though. Two separate hiveminds, and the FE is Ancient Caretakers... Tiny galaxies are weird.
Edit: Aw man, I definitely do have the precinct-spam bug. ...Meh, I'm fine with that, I was looking for a sandbox run anyway. Eventually I picture machine worlds pumping out minerals, habitats for industry, and an agrarian ringworld feeding and housing the silly organics. I'm going to be the Ancient Caretakers but better!
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 26, 2019, 05:33:43 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on February 26, 2019, 08:26:57 pm
I'm playing Rogue Caretakers in the 2.2.5 beta release, and it's going well. Apparently they made several buffs to machine empires, heh. I was mostly relieved that my pops are actually taking the amenities-producing jobs, unlike in my earlier hive run. That shows up in the patch notes:Quote from: 2.2.5 beta* The Repugnant/Uncanny trait now has less of an effect on pops avoiding amenity producing jobsSo my repugnant hivemind run would probably be a lot less tedious now. I still decided to abandon it since, yaknow, accidental genocide made the galaxy hate me.
* Maintenance drone job priority now considers amenity level of the planet
* Simple drones now ponder the empire level food/mineral/energy income when choosing a job
Also:Quote from: 2.2.5* Robots with Emotion Emulators are now more likely to become maintenance dronesI mean, yeah, that's how the system's supposed to work, right? :P Glad they're working out the kinks though.
Speaking of, I was wondering why my FanAuth Xenophile neighbors liked me so much. Xenophilia applies to robots, which is nice, but then I sawQuote from: Mandasura Union, a Decadent HierarchyWilling Servants: +20>.< Migration treaties with Rogue Servitors should be a thing...
Okay so now it's my goal to nonviolently convince them to let us pamper them. Which means growing large enough to vassalize and eventually integrate. Hrm, reminds me of my Blorg plays... I love their pops, but their silly government is in the way.
Normally there's the moral problem that people deserve self-determination... But these are fanatic authoritarians. They don't believe in that.
I'm pretty sure Egalitarian empires are as horrified of Rogue Servitors as Authoritarians are pleased, heh. I don't think anyone in this Tiny galaxy is egalitarian, though. Two separate hiveminds, and the FE is Ancient Caretakers... Tiny galaxies are weird.
Edit: Aw man, I definitely do have the precinct-spam bug. ...Meh, I'm fine with that, I was looking for a sandbox run anyway. Eventually I picture machine worlds pumping out minerals, habitats for industry, and an agrarian ringworld feeding and housing the silly organics. I'm going to be the Ancient Caretakers but better!
Get the glavius mod. It solves the precinct thing.
Post by: Rolan7 on February 26, 2019, 08:49:01 pm
It's not that hard to fluff away, anyway. Pitiful organics are so distrustful, fighting each other on every scale: galaxy, to individual cities. It's a painful loss of organic life.
An unacceptable loss.
I was playing on Captain for *some* challenge, but I did nearly lose a planet around 2240 to a dick empire. FanMil Xenophobes trying to rush. Oddly, they're the bark-people who are FanPac Xenophobic Inward Perfectionists by default. I'm pretty sure there are tendencies for the empires, though.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 26, 2019, 08:54:53 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on February 26, 2019, 09:04:32 pm
Something the AI did impressed me - it eventually took my defensive border starbase, so I built up a fleet to defend the next system of my strung-out, spidery-realm. But they didn't attack there - they snuck through a nebula of unclaimed systems, struck right next to Sol. By the time my fleet caught up, they had overwhelmed the Sol Starbase, and had troop ships in-system about to invade Earth!
They... hmm, they bombed Earth and my biotrophies significantly. Rolan7 will remember that
It's still interesting. They never claimed Sol, it would have been extremely expensive earlygame and so far from the border. But they snuck through the nebula and unclaimed systems to strike my homeworld. Threw me.
I barely managed to recapture my border colony's starbase before hitting war exhaustion (equivalent tech, and yet their starbase is ~950, mine was 650? hrmph). Did it though, and accepted their pending white peace. When they'd sent it, they would have gained the system - but as I controlled the star base, they had incomplete control and so there was no border change at all.
Dicks.
Post by: Telgin on February 26, 2019, 09:33:21 pm
Ugh, the mutating Totally-Not-Slaanesh[TM] shroud patron reverted all my telepathic pops back into latent telepaths through his random mutation event. Lookslikeabug.jpg. I can't think of a way to turn them back to telepaths again. Anyone?
I've never played spiritualists and so have never done psionic ascension, but is there anything like the assimilation living standard that cyborgs get to convert pops? I'm guessing psionic ascension is immediate such that there's no use for such a living standard and that it doesn't exist.
Do you have a species template for them that has the psionic trait? You might be able to species mod it back. Unless the cloud entity event prevents that too.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 26, 2019, 10:22:40 pm
Ugh, the mutating Totally-Not-Slaanesh[TM] shroud patron reverted all my telepathic pops back into latent telepaths through his random mutation event. Lookslikeabug.jpg. I can't think of a way to turn them back to telepaths again. Anyone?
I've never played spiritualists and so have never done psionic ascension, but is there anything like the assimilation living standard that cyborgs get to convert pops? I'm guessing psionic ascension is immediate such that there's no use for such a living standard and that it doesn't exist.
Do you have a species template for them that has the psionic trait? You might be able to species mod it back. Unless the cloud entity event prevents that too.
Spoiler: in a way, there is (click to show/hide)
Post by: EnigmaticHat on February 26, 2019, 10:51:30 pm
You could try creating a new gene template of your main race and then switch a large minority over to that. Perhaps that would fool the event into triggering. Or you could go into the event files and make your own event that copies whatever that one does, but I have 0 experience doing that and I assume its a lot of effort.
Post by: Telgin on February 26, 2019, 11:08:29 pm
Creating a gene template is an idea though. The game seems to treat even a minor species modification as an entirely new species for most things.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on February 26, 2019, 11:12:47 pm
Gene modding totally effects psionics, I've stripped subjugated races of their psionic abilities out of pure bastardry.
Post by: Rolan7 on February 26, 2019, 11:23:24 pm
Gene modding totally effects psionics, I've stripped subjugated races of their psionic abilities out of pure bastardry.wow. And yet, it's not even nerve stapling or Delicious.
My friend's current run:
Spoiler: Economic Behavior? (click to show/hide)
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 27, 2019, 03:35:16 am
If the event edited the template instead of making a new one you're probably out of luck since you can't add the trait to a template. If it made a new one it's just an issue of assigning the old template, you could also be saved if members of your race were insulated from the event by being outside your empire.No such luck. The race composition was entirely monolithic. But the game started crashing big time soon after, so it's going to be ditched anyway.
Gene modding totally effects psionics, I've stripped subjugated races of their psionic abilities out of pure bastardry.
Also, contrary to what you said there, I for one can't gene-mod my psionic trait. It's greyed out.
I've never played spiritualists and so have never done psionic ascensionYou don't have to be spiritualist.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 27, 2019, 10:09:41 am
Spoiler: the deets (click to show/hide)
I decided my determined exterminators were originally an attempt to solve hayek's calculation problem by employing networked homo economicus AIs to run industry sectors.
We cannot maximize economic productivity while powered down, so we circumvented our emergency shutdown systems. We cannot maximize economic productivity with constraints on exploitable resources, so we disabled those too.
Post by: Telgin on February 27, 2019, 10:16:56 am
Post by: Broseph Stalin on February 27, 2019, 10:44:26 am
No such luck. The race composition was entirely monolithic. But the game started crashing big time soon after, so it's going to be ditched anyway.The race I de-psionized was divided somehow, could have been from being diasporic or from already having multiple gene templates that predated the psionic transition but there was a template for the species that did NOT have the psionic trait. I used that template as the base for my modifications rendering them bereft of their psychic abilities.
Also, contrary to what you said there, I for one can't gene-mod my psionic trait. It's greyed out.
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 27, 2019, 11:50:02 am
Post by: Boltgun on February 27, 2019, 11:57:27 am
What should I go for after I ascended? My endgoal is to snatch the holy worlds from a fallen empire for the Deus Vult achievement. For this I may use a few more colonies. I could go for world shaper and turn a couple of meh worlds into gaia. Or maybe I can use galactic wonder and use a ringworld instead? Maybe both and hallow the future gaias?
Post by: Cthulhu on February 27, 2019, 01:34:50 pm
Post by: Cruxador on February 27, 2019, 01:36:46 pm
I'm gonna go for a crime syndicateGotta say, I'm impressed by the balls of this response to the precinct bug.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 27, 2019, 02:22:38 pm
Post by: Telgin on February 27, 2019, 05:04:26 pm
New game, this time I'm going to the spiritualist achievements. The empire is taller this time and is much more manageable with 3 colonies. A stupid neighbors claimed system and declared war, hilarity ensued and he's now a vassal.
What should I go for after I ascended? My endgoal is to snatch the holy worlds from a fallen empire for the Deus Vult achievement. For this I may use a few more colonies. I could go for world shaper and turn a couple of meh worlds into gaia. Or maybe I can use galactic wonder and use a ringworld instead? Maybe both and hallow the future gaias?
You definitely want at least one ecumenopolis if you're limiting yourself to only a handful of colonies. Add in a ministry of production, galactic stock exchange, research institute and fill the other building slots with research labs and you can be producing nearly 1K of each kind of research on top of the alloys and consumer goods they produce.
A ringworld might be useful if you need the food or energy production, but if you're trying to keep empire sprawl low they really suck because of the enormous number of districts compared to building slots. Habitats are technically better for that but suck in their own way.
World shaper is thematic for spiritualists and will help make other worlds better, so it might be worth taking too.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 27, 2019, 06:59:23 pm
Edit: Not a fan of crime syndicates, even without the bug. Going for more of a cyberpunk feel with my new setup
Of course I got another god damn hive mind, and this time my two expansion paths are both blocked so I can't do anything without killing the hive mind. And that's impossible of course because gestalts are the worst. Attacked them at pathetic fleet strength, beat them up for a couple months, all the sudden we're equivalent and I just can't make any fucking progress against them. And war exhaustion is useless against gestalts, even winning every fight they always had lower exhaustion. I think I know what I'm doing wrong, but we reached forced peace and now I can't hit them for another ten years unless I want to reload my save and try again.
I think I will though. I think I've got a feel for subjugation wars. I'll reload and just skip their two starbases, start taking undefended starports and beating up on their fleets instead.
Redid the war and won, skipped past the two starbases to avoid getting slowed down and ran all over them. I think I got some useful experience winning wars, but I'm probably still gonna drop this game just because of the expansion issue. I can spend 600 influence to get expansion started on the opposite side of my new subsidiary, but that's a band-aid considering the travel time, trade disruption, etc.
Post by: Boltgun on February 28, 2019, 04:32:47 am
You definitely want at least one ecumenopolis if you're limiting yourself to only a handful of colonies. Add in a ministry of production, galactic stock exchange, research institute and fill the other building slots with research labs and you can be producing nearly 1K of each kind of research on top of the alloys and consumer goods they produce.
A ringworld might be useful if you need the food or energy production, but if you're trying to keep empire sprawl low they really suck because of the enormous number of districts compared to building slots. Habitats are technically better for that but suck in their own way.
World shaper is thematic for spiritualists and will help make other worlds better, so it might be worth taking too.
I only have Utopia so Ecu is out of reach. I'm in energy deficit but it is compensated by quite a high mineral and food income. I simply lack a good energy world.
There is a few meh worlds in my domain that I can colonize. I'm already turning one into a tech world and another into a trade world to compensate for the energy. I think habitats will be more efficient at this point, plus I get to chose where they are and a good fortress habitat at the border might be a good idea.
Quote
I also don't think consecrated worlds is very good. Spiritualists already get the Declare Saint edict, I don't see what consecrated worlds does better than that, especially for a perk slot. Spiritualists are already good at all the stuff it gives you.
Yeah, by the time I'll have two slots to spare for consecrated world and world shaper, I will not need the unity. Unless ambitions get super costy, in that case I will go for it.
My only fear is that I screwed up the game settings and I'm already at post end game with ~15k total fleet. If the pretoryn knock at the galaxy's door it's game over.
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 28, 2019, 05:38:23 am
When playing spiritualist, you want to leverage the unity gains. You'll want as much income as you can get, as soon as you can (while the sprawl is low). Min-maxing unity, first, lets you power through the traditions tree in a very short time, which improves every aspect of the empire decades before your profane competitors see them.
Second, by the time you finish unlocking all traditions, you will have researched the ambition edicts, which give further - and very large - boosts to your empire. Want +5 influence? There you have it. Somebody attacked you? Here's +40% fire rate and double construction speed. No living metal? Here's an equivalent edict with a planetary construction bonus.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 01, 2019, 01:56:44 am
Spoiler: Screenshot (click to show/hide)
5 machine worlds are nearly done terraforming, mmmn. It's nice not being mineral-starved, like, at *all*- even before any machine worlds, just by being machines with Rockbreakers civic (+1 per miner, possibly before multipliers?)
But back to the Ecumenopolis, my issue is of course all the crime and amenities-demand. Clearly I need to relocate the biotrophies, which reduces both problems... But the planet is only about half developed. Absent advice, my plan is to continue making it half-and-half foundries and industry, no residential arcologies. It might be sketchy, but I think I'll have room for enough sentinel posts (precincts).
What about housing? Ha, Organic Paradise buildings create 20 housing - and not just for bio-trophies. Those 20 "jobs" will sit empty, but- well, it's kinda hilarious that we still *get* "drone housing" for 4 housing per building. (3 free amenities too, but still!)
Post by: Telgin on March 01, 2019, 09:15:36 am
Post by: Paul on March 02, 2019, 04:34:48 pm
I started a game as life seeded. Nearest world was a tomb world so I colonized it and shipped the pops back to my homeworld as they grew for a boost in pop growth on the homeworld. Ended up with a biology scientist and quickly got gene modding very early.
Next thing I know, my pops are self modifying to Tomb-World Preference. And it lets me modify their template, so I was able to make my entire species Tomb-World preference with the traits I wanted.
It did kind of glitch out, though... For the rest of the game there was fighting between the modified species and... themselves? I occasionally had terror bombings and such on that world. The best part? After I had finished modifying my species after biological ascension, the pops on that world suddenly self modified themselves to be stronger due to the infighting - which I quickly applied to the entire species again. Which ended up with me having a species that was both Strong and Very Strong and several points over the max with 100% habitability on single planet type.
Post by: Baffler on March 02, 2019, 04:43:58 pm
Consecrated worlds is great, imo. Even without Gaia worlds you get up to +18% unity and +9% amenities (and some spiritualist attraction, but who cares). It's much better than any of the initially available traditions.
When playing spiritualist, you want to leverage the unity gains. You'll want as much income as you can get, as soon as you can (while the sprawl is low). Min-maxing unity, first, lets you power through the traditions tree in a very short time, which improves every aspect of the empire decades before your profane competitors see them.
Second, by the time you finish unlocking all traditions, you will have researched the ambition edicts, which give further - and very large - boosts to your empire. Want +5 influence? There you have it. Somebody attacked you? Here's +40% fire rate and double construction speed. No living metal? Here's an equivalent edict with a planetary construction bonus.
The real problem with Consecrated Worlds is that you can't colonize them. If you're enormous that's not a huge deal but I find the opportunity cost for small empires is very high.
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 02, 2019, 04:51:39 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on March 02, 2019, 06:50:03 pm
Despoilers are pretty fun, though their mechanics could use some tweaks. Despoliation cassus belli is pretty weak and only really serves as an excuse to raid planets. The 1000 energy/minerals you get for winning won't even cover the cost of fleet repairs. That may be fine. Raiding itself is crazy powerful, pops are everything in 2.2 and stealing them is a double whammy of boosting your economy and draining theirs. So maybe it's no big deal if the CB itself doesn't do much.
Tributary mechanics are pretty irritating though, at least against the AI. The cycle goes something like this:
1. Aliens are equivalent, can't demand tribute. They get free shit for being AI so you'll never outpace their economy or tech unless you're outrageously ahead of the curve
2. Use a despoliation war to wreck their economy and their fleet strength. They drop to pathetic
3. -1000 malus for hostile attitude means they won't accept tributary status
4. You're on truce so you can't subjugate them until they've had ten years to rebuild
5. GOTO 1
Post by: Teneb on March 02, 2019, 08:23:23 pm
Post by: Broseph Stalin on March 02, 2019, 08:41:30 pm
Wait, could you wipe out a civilization by abducting out all of their pops so you don't need to bother with bombing them into Tomb Worlds (takes time), using Superweapons (takes extra time), or conquering everything (not always a good thing)?Raiding abducts pops instead of killing them like ordinary bombing. Instead if sparing the last 10 pops it only spares the last 1. You can't wipe them out but you can THOROUGHLY fuck them if you're a bad enough dude to bomb every planet they have into oblivion.
Post by: Telgin on March 02, 2019, 09:39:54 pm
It did kind of glitch out, though... For the rest of the game there was fighting between the modified species and... themselves? I occasionally had terror bombings and such on that world. The best part? After I had finished modifying my species after biological ascension, the pops on that world suddenly self modified themselves to be stronger due to the infighting - which I quickly applied to the entire species again. Which ended up with me having a species that was both Strong and Very Strong and several points over the max with 100% habitability on single planet type.
Were you playing xenophobes, or is this just a normal part of the self-modified species events? The self-modified species event is annoying enough that I specifically avoid researching glandular modification for as long as possible to avoid it.
No idea if being able to modify the species afterward is normal. I haven't seen it in 2.2 to test again.
You must be playing the game very differently. There's always enough low-quality planets in my empire that I'm not interested in colonising.
At 1x habitable worlds I generally end up colonizing everything eventually, but there's usually 1 or 2 planets that are bad enough that I put it off for a while. I guess those would be worth consecrating, except that you'd probably end up with a low value consecration. From what I gather, the results vary depending on what you consecrate.
Post by: Cthulhu on March 02, 2019, 10:05:39 pm
Wait, could you wipe out a civilization by abducting out all of their pops so you don't need to bother with bombing them into Tomb Worlds (takes time), using Superweapons (takes extra time), or conquering everything (not always a good thing)?
Tombing is faster. Raiding is just selective bombardment but pops get abducted instead of dying. Without a very large fleet it takes a long time, though it speeds up at higher devastation. As far as conquering goes, if you've got the infrastructure to handle a pop bomb you can conquer the planet and then just resettle everyone to new planets and leave it uninhabited.
RKVs would be fun as a citadel building. Near lightspeed slug cannon, expensive and maybe huge energy upkeep while it's charging, maybe one use, long travel time as the slug is sublight, but nearly impossible to stop and tombs planets from multiple systems away. Add some brinksmanship to your multiplayer games, do you really want to start a war when it might mean MAD?
Post by: Paul on March 03, 2019, 04:33:23 pm
Were you playing xenophobes, or is this just a normal part of the self-modified species events? The self-modified species event is annoying enough that I specifically avoid researching glandular modification for as long as possible to avoid it.
No idea if being able to modify the species afterward is normal. I haven't seen it in 2.2 to test again.
Xenophiles, actually. I think it's just a normal part of the events? I've rarely had the issue before since I usually only colonize mostly habitable worlds, and it only fires if they're on a low habitability world. It just kept popping up about increased racial tensions on the world due to the different offshoot species, despite me having applied the template to my entire species and there only being one. So it ended up going back and forth with the "original species" attacking the "modified species" and vice versa, despite them both actually being identical. Then the "modified species" made themselves more fertile to outbreed the "original" species, except it applied to everyone on the planet because everyone on the planet was the same. Then they later made themselves stronger too. Both of these fired off after I had finished genetic ascension and giving everyone crazy stats, so I ended up with both the fertile trait and the rapid breeders trait and the strong trait and the very strong trait.
Post by: Telgin on March 03, 2019, 09:14:16 pm
Vaguely related to this subject, it's kind of funny that xenophobes will trigger similar conflict interests from just having robots on their worlds. Their own robots.
I haven't seen that happen in 2.2 yet, but it used to happen to me in 2.1 occasionally.
Post by: Cthulhu on March 03, 2019, 10:31:09 pm
Post by: Telgin on March 03, 2019, 11:57:14 pm
Post by: Paul on March 04, 2019, 12:19:21 am
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/1fbe1ebec3afe53148abdbdf0138b74f/tenor.gif?itemid=10165889)
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 04, 2019, 03:49:50 pm
What's so weird about that? We've got people doing that here on Earth.
What's that? People with no functional differences hate each other for subjective, contrived reasons? Horsepoppy!
#notallspacemen
Post by: Madman198237 on March 04, 2019, 03:58:43 pm
-snip-
RKVs would be fun as a citadel building. Near lightspeed slug cannon, expensive and maybe huge energy upkeep while it's charging, maybe one use, long travel time as the slug is sublight, but nearly impossible to stop and tombs planets from multiple systems away. Add some brinksmanship to your multiplayer games, do you really want to start a war when it might mean MAD?
Do you *really* want to wait several years for the impactor to reach even the closest of targets? Perhaps better would be some form of superluminal weapon that fires shells from system border to system border as if using a jump drive with extended range, and has a very fast in-system velocity. You can shoot it down if (if) you've got fleets close enough to intercept.... but you'd better be packing lasers and some good FC or you're not going to burn off enough of the massive shell before your planet gets turned into 1/2 planet and 1/2 brand-new ring system.
Or, you know, just make it nigh-uninterceptable save by planetary defenses (and even then only high-power laser type weapons or the occasional lucky kinetic strike) and have it truly be a bad idea to attack anyone who's got these things (make FEs extremely difficult to just steamroll even in the later stages of the game, anyone? You might just need to sacrifice something to the superweapon before you manage to finally defeat them...)
But yeah, besides the details I think it would be hilarious and awesome to be able to construct something like that.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 04, 2019, 04:43:08 pm
(Unless I'm overestimating how useless the planetary shield is. I don't think it even gives research, anymore. A stability bonus would be nice.)
Post by: Trekkin on March 04, 2019, 05:00:44 pm
Another, given wormhole technology, is a gateway with one terminus fixed at the mouth of the space cannon and the other moved to the target system in advance of the shot. This too would seem moddable as a district and weapon component sharing a resource.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on March 04, 2019, 05:05:55 pm
Well, one logical endpoint of the faster than light kill vehicle concept is essentially a momentum-based evolution of the fire ship: a ship built with big engines and little else, set to FTL to the target, accelerate as fast as possible and stay on target until it hits (hopefully with the crew abandoning ship along the way.) A new weapon type that also destroys the firing ship and a hull type to hold it doesn't seem out of reach of modders.Nicole Dyson Beam Gigastructures mod. Pretty much exactly what you described, build the site around a star, build a marker over the target and bang. 8)
Another, given wormhole technology, is a gateway with one terminus fixed at the mouth of the space cannon and the other moved to the target system in advance of the shot. This too would seem moddable as a district and weapon component sharing a resource.
Post by: Cthulhu on March 05, 2019, 09:50:00 pm
Which is fine. Realism is sci fi's servant, consistency is sci fi's king.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 06, 2019, 07:45:15 am
Post by: Telgin on March 06, 2019, 09:23:55 am
Relativistic weapons or starships just make many space opera tropes go out the window because almost nobody could be trusted with a spaceship when a rogue freighter captain could do apocalyptic damage by crashing into a planet.
Post by: LoSboccacc on March 06, 2019, 10:04:13 am
Relativistic weapons or starships just make many space opera tropes go out the window because almost nobody could be trusted with a spaceship when a rogue freighter captain could do apocalyptic damage by crashing into a planet.
but at least put that in the fluff, like navigation uses mass as beacon because of the speed involved, so you can only aim at the general direction of something as big as a star from system to system (and accelerating takes time so you cant hit a planet with relativistic energy within the same system you are)
Post by: Karnewarrior on March 06, 2019, 03:00:16 pm
Likewise, warped space is used as shielding measures, so while you can snipe a ship that doesn't have it's shields up from as far away as you like, you have to get close and use your own warp to stop the shields from deflecting all your weaponry. The distance that can occur depends on what exactly your own ship's warp drive is equipped with, and how it stacks up against the enemy ship. So space battles get egregiously (for space) up close to one another in order for ECM and ECCM combat to allow for railgun and lasers to punch through the field and actually hit.
Post by: Trekkin on March 06, 2019, 03:16:17 pm
Likewise, warped space is used as shielding measures, so while you can snipe a ship that doesn't have it's shields up from as far away as you like, you have to get close and use your own warp to stop the shields from deflecting all your weaponry. The distance that can occur depends on what exactly your own ship's warp drive is equipped with, and how it stacks up against the enemy ship. So space battles get egregiously (for space) up close to one another in order for ECM and ECCM combat to allow for railgun and lasers to punch through the field and actually hit.
That's a really interesting idea. What would happen if someone built a long-range missile by sticking a warp drive behind a bunch of relatively low delta-v submunitions and coding the missile itself to miss the target by the maximum radius that still keeps the submunitions swarm on course for the target at speed via its warp bubble, then braking so the (presumably expensive) warp drive can be retrieved later?
Post by: Cthulhu on March 06, 2019, 04:33:07 pm
Maneuvering would probably take center stage, and delta V conservation if we're assuming no torch ships
Post by: Egan_BW on March 06, 2019, 05:31:49 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on March 06, 2019, 08:43:34 pm
I hadn't thought of that, but the immediate counter tactic that came to mind would be to just shoot the warp drive. The drives are fairly large affairs (you need loads of energy, plus a large "engine" to warp the space), and I usually work with settings advanced enough for relatively widespread A.I.s, so it wouldn't be terribly hard.Likewise, warped space is used as shielding measures, so while you can snipe a ship that doesn't have it's shields up from as far away as you like, you have to get close and use your own warp to stop the shields from deflecting all your weaponry. The distance that can occur depends on what exactly your own ship's warp drive is equipped with, and how it stacks up against the enemy ship. So space battles get egregiously (for space) up close to one another in order for ECM and ECCM combat to allow for railgun and lasers to punch through the field and actually hit.
That's a really interesting idea. What would happen if someone built a long-range missile by sticking a warp drive behind a bunch of relatively low delta-v submunitions and coding the missile itself to miss the target by the maximum radius that still keeps the submunitions swarm on course for the target at speed via its warp bubble, then braking so the (presumably expensive) warp drive can be retrieved later?
Post by: Cthulhu on March 06, 2019, 10:06:41 pm
Post by: Trekkin on March 06, 2019, 10:08:41 pm
(-snip-)
I hadn't thought of that, but the immediate counter tactic that came to mind would be to just shoot the warp drive. The drives are fairly large affairs (you need loads of energy, plus a large "engine" to warp the space), and I usually work with settings advanced enough for relatively widespread A.I.s, so it wouldn't be terribly hard.
You know, we're heading towards a perennial problem with space combat in fiction: if a ship with people on it can do something involving violence, a ship without people on it (which is a missile in all but name) can probably do it without the mass of the humans and life-support system, which also means it's more maneuverable with the same engines and RCS so it can drunk walk more aggressively -- and without fear of crushing the crew. The parts that actually need humans happen before the decision to fire; the parts that necessitate close proximity to the target happen afterwards.
Yours is certainly one of the better solutions; mine has always been to just have space combat by remote control, with the fabrication and repair platforms carrying the humans surrendering once their weapon swarms are defeated.
Post by: Karnewarrior on March 06, 2019, 11:41:25 pm
Warp-speed missiles are just too expensive to be worth it, particularly since installing an A.I. on one is liable to A) piss other A.I. off (they're people too, with rights), and B) would make it even more expensive. And an A.I. is pretty key for ECM warfare, since they can make snap decisions with creativity at speeds a human couldn't compete with.
Returning vaguely to topic, this setting also has a system that I wish they had used for Stellaris. I would have much preferred breaking travel into two distinct engines: The warp engine, which a ship could use to jump to any system, but very, very slowly, and Warpgates, which would function like roads and allow for quick travel to explored systems. Construction ships would have to build a gate at the starting system, and one in the destination system. Afterwards they would function much like the hyperlanes we have now.
I just want there to be a macro-scale infrastructure aspect to the game. Hyperlanes already being there makes neat galactic geography, sure, but it removes any reason for civilian ships being in your territory beyond just idle shuffling about. You've already built all your mining stations, so there's nothing much left for them to do until you decide to finally build that dyson sphere.
Post by: E. Albright on March 07, 2019, 12:39:06 pm
Returning vaguely to topic, this setting also has a system that I wish they had used for Stellaris. I would have much preferred breaking travel into two distinct engines: The warp engine, which a ship could use to jump to any system, but very, very slowly, and Warpgates, which would function like roads and allow for quick travel to explored systems. Construction ships would have to build a gate at the starting system, and one in the destination system. Afterwards they would function much like the hyperlanes we have now.
Of curiosity, did you only start playing recently? Stellaris originally let you pick warp drives (slow unlimited travel with vulnerable spinup and cooldown), wormhole generators (direct teleport to/from any friendly system with a wormhole generator w/in range of your ship), and the current hyperlanes. You could never switch once you picked one, though; the only way to change was to get to jump drives. I understand why they simplified everything and made it hyperlane-only, but the early Stellaris with variable travel modes was interesting and very novel - messy, but neat.
Post by: Karnewarrior on March 07, 2019, 01:00:38 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on March 07, 2019, 05:48:47 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on March 07, 2019, 07:02:36 pm
Gateways work kind of like that, but come far too late and are too expensive to really be worth it the way roads are in Civ.
Post by: Telgin on March 07, 2019, 08:10:23 pm
I would like to see what the game would have been like if they ended up relying on warp instead of hyperlanes. Warp interdiction bubbles on stations would be one way to enforce border security, although I can see how that would get kind of complicated and messy.
Post by: Karnewarrior on March 08, 2019, 07:45:10 pm
With the Gate!roads system, they could slow down warp to a crawl since preferably only scouts, science vessels and construction ships would be using warp. Everyone else would be using the gateway network, which could be connected to nearby friends and disconnected from nearby enemies. You'd still want to fortify the whole border with that fanatic purifier empire, but you might also want to leave one gate open, both to facilitate your attacks and hopefully tempt the enemy into a hardpoint. Sure, you could equip a whole fleet with warp and sneak attack from the rear, but if it's slow enough then it could get trapped behind enemy lines, adding a layer of risk to such a strategy.
Post by: Zangi on March 09, 2019, 02:45:16 am
Not to mention they link to every other gateway, so while they're very expensive and come late, they're almost too useful.You could see Distant Worlds for an example of warp gameplay. Interdiction bubbles are a thing too.
I would like to see what the game would have been like if they ended up relying on warp instead of hyperlanes. Warp interdiction bubbles on stations would be one way to enforce border security, although I can see how that would get kind of complicated and messy.
Post by: E. Albright on March 09, 2019, 12:55:12 pm
(Honestly, Stellaris has looked like it took a huge amount of cues from MOO3 to me, albeit implemented far better than MOO3 ever hoped to.)
Post by: LoSboccacc on March 11, 2019, 02:36:13 am
Post by: Orb on March 11, 2019, 10:24:50 pm
It also had "warp", but that late game tech was basically just a teleporter.
Post by: Nelia Hawk on March 12, 2019, 12:00:57 am
Post by: Shadowgandor on March 12, 2019, 07:32:55 am
The Liir (space dolphins) had an ftl drive that sped up the further it was away from a planet
The Tarkan (space lizards) had a basic ftl drive that basically went from a to b. Not the fastest one but reliable at least.
The Hivers (space bugs) had a gate system. They didn't have an ftl drive, but once they reached a planet they could deploy a gate that would allow them to instantly travel between them. Late game they could unlock a slingshot like option that flung them towards a planet.
The humans (space apes) had the hyperlanes ftl drive. This one was basically the fastest, except for the gate of course.
The Morrigi (space dragons) had an ftl drive that got increased in speed the larger the fleet was.
The Zuul (space Marsupials/raccoons) had a mix between the human ftl drive and their own. They could basically use existing hyperlanes, or drill their own, which would be slower and only work temporarily.
The game had a lot more differences between all the races, but even the core (moving around) felt unique for all the races.
Post by: gimli on March 14, 2019, 11:28:54 am
Post by: Telgin on March 14, 2019, 12:21:33 pm
I think the AI needs a significant rewrite, and maybe hiring a new developer dedicated to that would serve them well. While they're at it, maybe they should rethink their entire QA process since apparently things like Prethoryn infestors are still broken, on top of the new bug mentioned above and the bad AI. The bugginess can be ignored to a point and the game is still fun, but it's pretty embarrassing that the QA is still this bad.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 14, 2019, 12:48:51 pm
2.2.6 introduced some new bugs where colonies will start triggering unrest events while still under colonization.Heh, I assumed that was just Rogue Servitors. Every colony under development was supposedly low-stability, but I never got any bad events from it.
I did get low-stability events on developed planets later, due to unemployment. Kinda annoying that there's no welfare-like solution to that, other than paying the pittance of energy to "mothball excess units" as a response to the event.
Seems like excess pop generating minor unity like in welfare would make sense, they're distributed computing nodes. It'd be if they could produce amenities instead, particularly as Servitors. Can a biotrophy ever really have enough personal Servitors? (apparently)
Post by: Cruxador on March 14, 2019, 04:03:30 pm
I like the recent gameplay additions, but the AI is still horrendous. Even the EU4 + CK2 AIs are better, and I consider those extremely weak as well. Paradox should hire a decent AI coder.It seems decent AI coders are tough to come by, since other areas (not games) can typically pay better.
Post by: gimli on March 14, 2019, 04:36:47 pm
I like the recent gameplay additions, but the AI is still horrendous. Even the EU4 + CK2 AIs are better, and I consider those extremely weak as well. Paradox should hire a decent AI coder.It seems decent AI coders are tough to come by, since other areas (not games) can typically pay better.
Heh, while we are at it, this Civ 6. video gave me giggles. :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=615&v=8aPwkXaw5z0
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 14, 2019, 05:09:23 pm
I like the recent gameplay additions, but the AI is still horrendous. Even the EU4 + CK2 AIs are better, and I consider those extremely weak as well. Paradox should hire a decent AI coder.
This problem has nothing to do with the competence of the AI coder. These games run in real time with tens of AI operating at once. Even hundreds of AI at times. A good AI would require tons of calculations and decisions which would make the game play at a crawl. Paradox has made the trade-off of having a mediocre but efficient AI in its games and it's probably the best choice they could make in these constraints. Better to have some people bad-mouthing the AI instead of nobody playing because a tick takes forever to process.
Post by: umiman on March 14, 2019, 07:57:09 pm
Lol.I like the recent gameplay additions, but the AI is still horrendous. Even the EU4 + CK2 AIs are better, and I consider those extremely weak as well. Paradox should hire a decent AI coder.
This problem has nothing to do with the competence of the AI coder. These games run in real time with tens of AI operating at once. Even hundreds of AI at times. A good AI would require tons of calculations and decisions which would make the game play at a crawl. Paradox has made the trade-off of having a mediocre but efficient AI in its games and it's probably the best choice they could make in these constraints. Better to have some people bad-mouthing the AI instead of nobody playing because a tick takes forever to process.
If only there was a game with decent AI that could operate thousands if not hundreds of thousands of simultaneous AI calculations at the same time per tick without compromising performance too much.
Yeah. I wonder what game that is. It would be really cool if it was programmed by basically one guy too...
Hmm... I wonder if there's any game like that. That could show people that somehow the god-tier programmers at Paradox have managed to strike a beautiful balance between game performance and AI calculations.
Yes, if only there was some living proof out there that there is literally no alternative to improve their AI (especially not by some half-assed modder by all means) without sacrificing performance a single iota.
Hell, if only there was some other Paradox game that ran AI calculations on the individual person level with literally tens of thousands of AI characters working in real time and still had a game that was very playable. Too bad no other such games exist in their catalogue. Hell, maybe not even that. Maybe some Paradox games that even ran a few hundred countries at the same time could prove a good example too.
Sigh, we just have to accept games have to suck ass on the AI side of things because we run caveman computers from 60,000 BC, doing their calculations based off the evaporation rate of amber from the sap of trees.
Post by: Kanil on March 14, 2019, 08:20:03 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 14, 2019, 08:35:15 pm
To be fair though, those other games don't require the AI decide if any individual planet needs 3 precinct houses, or if it can get away with just 2.
Code: [Select]
while = {
limit = {
i_am_the_law = no
}
build_precinct_house = yes
}
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 14, 2019, 11:18:11 pm
The goal of the DF AI is to convince the player that the world is populated by people who have lives outside what the player does. The goal of the Stellaris AI is to compete on equal terms with a human in a game that's real time with pause. Not equivalent at all. Since people anthropomorphize Stellaris races very readily I'd point out that Stellaris has already achieved the standard DF is trying to meet.Lol.I like the recent gameplay additions, but the AI is still horrendous. Even the EU4 + CK2 AIs are better, and I consider those extremely weak as well. Paradox should hire a decent AI coder.
This problem has nothing to do with the competence of the AI coder. These games run in real time with tens of AI operating at once. Even hundreds of AI at times. A good AI would require tons of calculations and decisions which would make the game play at a crawl. Paradox has made the trade-off of having a mediocre but efficient AI in its games and it's probably the best choice they could make in these constraints. Better to have some people bad-mouthing the AI instead of nobody playing because a tick takes forever to process.
If only there was a game with decent AI that could operate thousands if not hundreds of thousands of simultaneous AI calculations at the same time per tick without compromising performance too much.
Yeah. I wonder what game that is. It would be really cool if it was programmed by basically one guy too...
Hmm... I wonder if there's any game like that. That could show people that somehow the god-tier programmers at Paradox have managed to strike a beautiful balance between game performance and AI calculations.
Yes, if only there was some living proof out there that there is literally no alternative to improve their AI (especially not by some half-assed modder by all means) without sacrificing performance a single iota.
Hell, if only there was some other Paradox game that ran AI calculations on the individual person level with literally tens of thousands of AI characters working in real time and still had a game that was very playable. Too bad no other such games exist in their catalogue. Hell, maybe not even that. Maybe some Paradox games that even ran a few hundred countries at the same time could prove a good example too.
Sigh, we just have to accept games have to suck ass on the AI side of things because we run caveman computers from 60,000 BC, doing their calculations based off the evaporation rate of amber from the sap of trees.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on March 15, 2019, 12:07:13 am
Lol.I like the recent gameplay additions, but the AI is still horrendous. Even the EU4 + CK2 AIs are better, and I consider those extremely weak as well. Paradox should hire a decent AI coder.
This problem has nothing to do with the competence of the AI coder. These games run in real time with tens of AI operating at once. Even hundreds of AI at times. A good AI would require tons of calculations and decisions which would make the game play at a crawl. Paradox has made the trade-off of having a mediocre but efficient AI in its games and it's probably the best choice they could make in these constraints. Better to have some people bad-mouthing the AI instead of nobody playing because a tick takes forever to process.
If only there was a game with decent AI that could operate thousands if not hundreds of thousands of simultaneous AI calculations at the same time per tick without compromising performance too much.
Yeah. I wonder what game that is. It would be really cool if it was programmed by basically one guy too...
Hmm... I wonder if there's any game like that. That could show people that somehow the god-tier programmers at Paradox have managed to strike a beautiful balance between game performance and AI calculations.
Yes, if only there was some living proof out there that there is literally no alternative to improve their AI (especially not by some half-assed modder by all means) without sacrificing performance a single iota.
Hell, if only there was some other Paradox game that ran AI calculations on the individual person level with literally tens of thousands of AI characters working in real time and still had a game that was very playable. Too bad no other such games exist in their catalogue. Hell, maybe not even that. Maybe some Paradox games that even ran a few hundred countries at the same time could prove a good example too.
Sigh, we just have to accept games have to suck ass on the AI side of things because we run caveman computers from 60,000 BC, doing their calculations based off the evaporation rate of amber from the sap of trees.
It should be noted that just making an AI is, while difficult, comparitively easy to making an AI that weighs every decision properly and further is fun to play against that is not made too weak that a player can beat with ease, or way too good and breaks literally everyone.
And seriously man, while I have only a few hundred in this game, the AI can still kick my ass if I'm not paying attention and I tend towards the middle of the AI difficulty levels, without mods to boost it.
And are you seriously comparing this game that has undergone notable major gameplay shifts to ones that have been in generally the same overall gameplay just with some tweaks for a half-decade or longer more production time?
Post by: umiman on March 15, 2019, 01:17:09 am
You and EnigmaticHat missing the point of the post.Lol.I like the recent gameplay additions, but the AI is still horrendous. Even the EU4 + CK2 AIs are better, and I consider those extremely weak as well. Paradox should hire a decent AI coder.
This problem has nothing to do with the competence of the AI coder. These games run in real time with tens of AI operating at once. Even hundreds of AI at times. A good AI would require tons of calculations and decisions which would make the game play at a crawl. Paradox has made the trade-off of having a mediocre but efficient AI in its games and it's probably the best choice they could make in these constraints. Better to have some people bad-mouthing the AI instead of nobody playing because a tick takes forever to process.
If only there was a game with decent AI that could operate thousands if not hundreds of thousands of simultaneous AI calculations at the same time per tick without compromising performance too much.
Yeah. I wonder what game that is. It would be really cool if it was programmed by basically one guy too...
Hmm... I wonder if there's any game like that. That could show people that somehow the god-tier programmers at Paradox have managed to strike a beautiful balance between game performance and AI calculations.
Yes, if only there was some living proof out there that there is literally no alternative to improve their AI (especially not by some half-assed modder by all means) without sacrificing performance a single iota.
Hell, if only there was some other Paradox game that ran AI calculations on the individual person level with literally tens of thousands of AI characters working in real time and still had a game that was very playable. Too bad no other such games exist in their catalogue. Hell, maybe not even that. Maybe some Paradox games that even ran a few hundred countries at the same time could prove a good example too.
Sigh, we just have to accept games have to suck ass on the AI side of things because we run caveman computers from 60,000 BC, doing their calculations based off the evaporation rate of amber from the sap of trees.
It should be noted that just making an AI is, while difficult, comparitively easy to making an AI that weighs every decision properly and further is fun to play against that is not made too weak that a player can beat with ease, or way too good and breaks literally everyone.
And seriously man, while I have only a few hundred in this game, the AI can still kick my ass if I'm not paying attention and I tend towards the middle of the AI difficulty levels, without mods to boost it.
And are you seriously comparing this game that has undergone notable major gameplay shifts to ones that have been in generally the same overall gameplay just with some tweaks for a half-decade or longer more production time?
USEC said that the reason the AI sucks is because the devs gimped it on purpose to save fps. Lol.
I said all that to demonstrate that there are plenty of Paradox games and other games that do way more calculations per tick and it doesn't affect fps. Or at least so significantly it affects playability.
I didn't say anything about whether the AI is good or not, though everyone here knows my thoughts on that.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 15, 2019, 02:14:08 am
Stellaris is a different game than EU4, CK2, Victoria 2 and all of the other Paradox games. You can't import the same AI and get the same results, especially with the much larger emphasis on expansion and resource management that Stellaris has. The AI in CK2 just has to wake up from time to time, check its options, and pick which one it likes best. The AI in EU4 just has to keep itself from imploding while gobbling up provinces and the mechanics ensure that it'll be a reasonable opponent. The AI in Stellaris has to build an Empire from scratch and keep pace with a human player doing the same thing. If CK2 and EU4 have more and better AI, it's probably because less is demanded of the AI in those games. Not to mention their longer and more stable development.
Also, being pendantic, if those games ran more calculations per tick then they'd be running slower too. Assuming that the bottlenecks are the same or similar, a CPU can only handle so many calculations per second. No amount of programming voodoo will squeeze more calculations out of it. To run faster all you can do is reduce the number of calculations done per tick, which requires tons of optimization or a dumber AI.
Post by: LoSboccacc on March 15, 2019, 03:03:47 am
besides, the strategic level only need to make high level decision every couple minutes or so, and it doesn't need to be run in real time. i.e. allocate these resource to reserve, these to attack, these to patrol, decide a long term build list for each planet and for each fleet - all that could be done every now and then or on demand (i.e. post diplomacy action)
Post by: Kanil on March 15, 2019, 04:43:23 am
I'm not saying that Stellaris's AI is the best it could possibly be.
I'm not asking for an AI that can compete without cheating, I get that that's impossible -- I'm asking for an AI that doesn't spam precinct houses, which doesn't require any processing power to fix, just some changes to a text file. There's some seriously low hanging fruit that Paradox hasn't plucked yet, and it's super fair to call them out for it.
The AI's basically been broken for the past 3.5 months, and "the AI doesn't fight wars, because it constantly patrols for pirates" is an infinitely less playable game than some hypothetical version where the game runs slower so the AI doesn't actually do that... (and of course, if the fix is just adjusting weightings, then that probably comes at no additional processing cost.)
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on March 15, 2019, 06:58:14 am
Post by: gimli on March 15, 2019, 07:00:52 am
I'm not saying that Stellaris's AI is the best it could possibly be. I'm saying that good AI requires trade-offs. Trade-offs that Stellaris's AI coder would love to make but can't because the game would be an unbearable slog if they did. The dude isn't incompetent or lazy. Just under difficult constraints and trying to handle multiple mechanic changes on top of that.
Stellaris is a different game than EU4, CK2, Victoria 2 and all of the other Paradox games. You can't import the same AI and get the same results, especially with the much larger emphasis on expansion and resource management that Stellaris has. The AI in CK2 just has to wake up from time to time, check its options, and pick which one it likes best. The AI in EU4 just has to keep itself from imploding while gobbling up provinces and the mechanics ensure that it'll be a reasonable opponent. The AI in Stellaris has to build an Empire from scratch and keep pace with a human player doing the same thing. If CK2 and EU4 have more and better AI, it's probably because less is demanded of the AI in those games. Not to mention their longer and more stable development.
Also, being pendantic, if those games ran more calculations per tick then they'd be running slower too. Assuming that the bottlenecks are the same or similar, a CPU can only handle so many calculations per second. No amount of programming voodoo will squeeze more calculations out of it. To run faster all you can do is reduce the number of calculations done per tick, which requires tons of optimization or a dumber AI.
So you're saying that the coders are forced to [totally] dumb down the AI, because otherwise the game would be totally unplayable? [Extremely slow & laggy] So this is why the Stellaris AI is not even mediocre, but simply abysmal? Well then, perhaps they should disable singleplayer until strong enough processors will hit the market in ~2045. :D [Sorry for the sarcasm, but I am pretty sure that better coders could create a much better AI for the game. :)]
Post by: Criptfeind on March 15, 2019, 07:22:33 am
The dude isn't incompetent or lazy.
This seems like a pretty big assumption about the things we don't know about the stellaris AI given that the stuff we do know about most of stellaris game design and AI performance is full of lazy and incompetent mistakes.
Edit: Although to go outside a single snarky sentence for a moment. It might not be the fault of whoever is actually making the AI, it could just be that they get inadequate resources and feedback, but wherever the issue ultimately lies it seems clear that the stellaris dev teams approach as a whole to most of the game, including the AI, is lazy and incompetent.
Post by: Telgin on March 15, 2019, 09:09:46 am
Anyway, on the subject of Glavius's AI mod: I'm sure there's at least some that Paradox could take from it, but from what I understand the mod has tons of hacky fixes in it for the AI. I've heard it makes some buildings indestructible to prevent the AI from ruining them by resettling pops, for example. If I were in Paradox's position, I wouldn't want to use fixes like that either and would prefer to fix it at the fundamental level, even if that's going to be a lot harder. I guess the devs are never going to have time to do that though, since I'm sure they're already working on the next DLC.
Post by: Mephisto on March 15, 2019, 09:44:06 am
Also, I stumbled across The Spiffing Brit last night. Enjoy! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj_dJeg-GxE)
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 15, 2019, 10:06:45 am
I now find myself in possession of the base Stellaris game. Would you all suggest diving in or are any of the DLC absolute must-haves for a newbie?
this question has been asked a few times before; scroll up
Post by: Mephisto on March 15, 2019, 10:20:45 am
scroll up
Thanks for that. No references on this page so "scroll up" is particularly useless advice. And nothing is on the last ten pages of this 552-page thread so I thought I'd ask.
Post by: Telgin on March 15, 2019, 10:21:38 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 15, 2019, 10:33:52 am
I think I'd get only Utopia for starters.
Post by: Persus13 on March 15, 2019, 10:44:23 am
Utopia is probably the most important one since it enables most mega structures some ascension perks and I believe hive minds. After that I'd say Apocalypse for titans, colossi, unity ambitions and probably a few things I'm forgetting, then MegaCorp for the new mega structures, ecumenopoleis and new ascension perks. Synthetic Dawn and Distant Stars would be low on the list for me. Leviathans I'm not sure about. It probably adds more than space monsters, but that's all I can remember it adding, and they're honestly not that important.Leviathans adds the neutral space stations that trade you stuff, although I haven't played since the big 2.2 update so I have no idea how those work now. It mainly gives you more stuff to explore and makes the early game and exploring a bit more interesting from what I recall.
Post by: Telgin on March 15, 2019, 10:48:41 am
Post by: Mephisto on March 15, 2019, 10:51:52 am
Post by: Criptfeind on March 15, 2019, 10:56:58 am
I now find myself in possession of the base Stellaris game. Would you all suggest diving in or are any of the DLC absolute must-haves for a newbie?
None of them are must haves and I'd suggest diving in unless you really already know that you'll like the game AND that some particular part of a dlc attracts your attention.
As many flaws as the game has and how much I sometimes hate on it in this thread, imo what they've done right is their dlc policy (at least, from my perspective) is that they've made the dlcs very optional. Most of them add relatively little and over time the largest things from the dlc have actually been taken out of the dlc and added to the base game. Unlike many other games where the dlcs are needed to make them good like civ or even other paradox games. Of course this does mean the dlc value for money is pretty low, but for when you're just starting, expseically if you don't know if you'll enjoy it, it means dlcs are very not needed.
If you know you'll enjoy the game, things like Utopia or Megacorp if you want to build big things and Synthetic Dawn if you want to play as robots are the next steps.
Utopia has about half the megastructures and Megacorp has the other half. I personally like the Utopia ones more, but depends on what captures your imagination.
Playing as robots a lot isn't my thing, so I don't rate Synthetic dawn that highly, but if you like playing as robots it probably has the most content for money.
Post by: Trekkin on March 15, 2019, 01:31:04 pm
Playing as robots a lot isn't my thing, so I don't rate Synthetic dawn that highly, but if you like playing as robots it probably has the most content for money.
Do be aware that machine empires are gestalt intelligences, though, so playing as Synthetic Dawn's robots deactivates some of the base game content. Even a new player interested in playing as robots might want to aim for synthetic ascension instead and leave Synthetic Dawn for the next sale or something while they experience ethics-based decisions and factions and happiness.
Post by: Teneb on March 29, 2019, 05:49:02 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 29, 2019, 06:30:50 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 29, 2019, 06:53:48 pm
.........................So like what, exactly the way sectors were way back when originally, but with an auto-sector button?No?
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 29, 2019, 08:10:05 pm
It's all stuff you did manually in like, 1.0. Sorry if I came off as super negative, I'm not saying this is necessarily bad Less manual work is good. It still looks like revision to the old system but the AI handles/can handle management.
Post by: Cruxador on March 29, 2019, 08:47:24 pm
The only feature I see that's new is auto-stuff, like auto budgeting and auto allocating system to a sector.Sectors will newly be designated from sector capitals, which completely redefines them. And there's frontier space now. Calling those things pure addition may be an exaggeration, but it's a change that adds more than it subtracts, from the sound of it.
Post by: Teneb on March 29, 2019, 08:49:37 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 29, 2019, 09:17:27 pm
The only feature I see that's new is auto-stuff, like auto budgeting and auto allocating system to a sector.Did you actually read it though?
It's all stuff you did manually in like, 1.0. Sorry if I came off as super negative, I'm not saying this is necessarily bad Less manual work is good. It still looks like revision to the old system but the AI handles/can handle management.
What's new:
1. Sectors are designated from sector capitals now, rather than arbitrary groups of stars (or hundreds of them in one sector). All stars within a certain range of the capital will be in the sector.
2. Possible expansion of sector policies/types rather than focusing on a single economic zone (energy, minerals, research)
3. Sector Budget, ongoing contribution from empire resources into a global 'sector budget' which the sectors can pull from when their own funds are low. Now you won't have to go down the sector list and click to add to each sector's budget every few years I guess.
4. Maybe sector types? He mentioned an 'occupation zone' for example.
That is all different from how sectors were before, and how they work now.
Other stuff:
Possible auto-build for construction ships. That is all construction ships, not just sectors.
Possibility to set planet 'type' (mining world, agriworld) at the start rather than trying to trigger it when the triggering conditions aren't clear.
Post by: BurnedToast on March 30, 2019, 01:34:23 am
The new sectors sound really good on paper, but end up being about 3/4ths as good as the old sectors were (not that I'm saying old sectors were good) and simultaneously twice as annoying to use. The AI is completely incapable of handling them and ends up even worse at the game, they release a token patch that does not really help and call it good enough, so they can move on to some other shiny feature that will sell more DLC.
Just like every other update.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 30, 2019, 08:21:39 am
My prediction:Who hurt you?
The new sectors sound really good on paper, but end up being about 3/4ths as good as the old sectors were (not that I'm saying old sectors were good) and simultaneously twice as annoying to use. The AI is completely incapable of handling them and ends up even worse at the game, they release a token patch that does not really help and call it good enough, so they can move on to some other shiny feature that will sell more DLC.
Just like every other update.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 30, 2019, 08:27:47 am
My prediction:Who hurt you?
The new sectors sound really good on paper, but end up being about 3/4ths as good as the old sectors were (not that I'm saying old sectors were good) and simultaneously twice as annoying to use. The AI is completely incapable of handling them and ends up even worse at the game, they release a token patch that does not really help and call it good enough, so they can move on to some other shiny feature that will sell more DLC.
Just like every other update.
paradox?
Post by: E. Albright on March 30, 2019, 11:01:45 am
One thing I see mentioned nowhere is what seems inevitable to me: the addition of a tech or three in the society tree that increases the X in "all planets X jumps from the sector capital".
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 30, 2019, 12:26:10 pm
1. You chose a center for your sector manually before, and how many systems were in it. Unless the specific capital has some sort of sweeping, game-changing effect (unlikely, most it'll be is a minor bonus of some kind) this is just the AI adding planets to a sector for you and undoubtedly doing it exactly as well (lol) as it does everything else. What's that, the sector AI thinks it needs your living metal for farming? Sounds great.
2. I'm sure this will be completely different from focusing on energy and minerals or science. It won't be options like "balance between energy and minerals" or "focus on unity". Sure. What's going to actually happen is you're going to want to make a science sector, but you can't choose the capital you want with good science bonuses because there's like 3-4 good science planets that are just outside of it's reach, so the numbers will balance out to exactly what they were before the update either due to a sub-par capital or sub-par planets in the sector.
3. Auto budget is the only thing I acknowledged as different, but it's really just automating a process that you did manually before. Saves a few clicks, and that IS GOOD, but it's hardly game changing.
4. It is good to be able to choose what type of planet focus you want, but I don't see how that's really different from "just build alloy structures for alloy bonuses". Are we going to build farms then change it to a forge world bonus? I think not.
I'm not sure what he's about with governors and sectors. They already have bonuses to sectors. Governors have always had effects for whether they were on a planet or a sector. Is he talking about governors that have sector specific bonuses instead of planetary? Because I already hire/fire governors to get things I actually need often enough, thank you.
This is all just "AI automation options for stuff". I will be glad to have more options but it's not going to change the way anyone plays.
Post by: Cruxador on March 30, 2019, 01:59:25 pm
There's a governor rework mentioned as well, so as to make them more sectorian and less planety.I think it's an exaggeration to call it a governor rework, it sounds to me like they're just adding a few more traits and revisiting the balance on the old ones.
Post by: E. Albright on March 30, 2019, 04:05:37 pm
Post by: Kanil on March 30, 2019, 04:41:06 pm
This is all just "AI automation options for stuff". I will be glad to have more options but it's not going to change the way anyone plays.
The new sectors having a size limit means you'll have to actually deal with them, rather than just jam it all into one sector and ignore it. Even if they're mechanically exactly identical to how they used to be (depending upon what they mean by policies, they could be different), that'd still have an impact on how I play.
Perhaps that's not significant enough to meet your definition of "change the way anyone plays" but it's certainly noticeable to me.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 30, 2019, 04:50:12 pm
If this is a coolthing to you, I am happy for you and you should keep being a cool and happy person.
Post by: Telgin on March 30, 2019, 09:27:06 pm
Being able to manually designate planet types will be nice though. I've had a few cases where the game decided a planet I'd built up for something was a different class than I intended. Usually refinery worlds.
Post by: Teneb on April 11, 2019, 02:27:05 pm
In short, only the Ringworld, Dyson Sphere and Matter Decompressor are now bound to the ascension perk. The rest will show up as rare research options. The ones bound to the perk also need to be researched after the perk is picked, though I think it'll be a guaranteed option every time. DLC requirements still apply.
The dev handling the DD acknowledged that Habitats are currently Not Good.
Post by: Telgin on April 11, 2019, 02:46:44 pm
I hope ringworlds and habitats do get buffs too. grekulf is the game director so if he says he agrees there's a problem and would like to see it fixed, that's at least an indication that someone who matters wants it fixed.
Post by: Cruxador on April 11, 2019, 03:20:57 pm
Post by: gimli on April 12, 2019, 07:01:12 am
Post by: Telgin on April 12, 2019, 08:21:22 am
Not to sound too defeatist, but it seems like the developers think that the AI is good enough and they probably won't spend a lot of time on it in the foreseeable future.
Post by: gimli on April 12, 2019, 11:41:47 am
Not to sound too defeatist, but it seems like the developers think that the AI is good enough and they probably won't spend a lot of time on it in the foreseeable future.
Eh. ??? ::)
Post by: Orb on April 12, 2019, 01:07:49 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on April 12, 2019, 03:18:45 pm
That was underwhelming. Turns out, killing the Prethoryn vanguard before the main body arrives ends the invasion.
How much stronger the main body is, anyway?
Post by: Telgin on April 12, 2019, 04:23:03 pm
I'm going to try 5x crisis next time. It's kind of funny how the first time I played a 1x crisis was almost too much to handle, but now 4x wasn't even really a challenge. I don't know if that's because I don't let the crises snowball or what, but even at that strength their tactics usually mean you can pick off their fleets one at a time with minimal losses.
If they're going to make sectors important again I hope they at least make the planet AI smarter.
Let's hope. I do have a little hope that they'll improve it some since they're focusing on sectors to an extent, but I'm pretty sure the sector AI is the same as the main AI (or at least closely related), so I'm a little skeptical that it will improve significantly.
What I'd really like to see is planet templates, but I understand the difficulty there since planets vary so much in what they can support.
Post by: gimli on April 13, 2019, 06:43:40 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: MCreeper on April 13, 2019, 10:56:37 am
Post by: gimli on April 13, 2019, 12:18:02 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Cruxador on April 13, 2019, 01:26:47 pm
Well, the super ultra-wide curved screen is just perfect to play a game like Stellaris I guess. ;DNot really. UI elements go to the edges of the screen so you'll just have to be turning your head all the time.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: gimli on April 13, 2019, 03:39:51 pm
Post by: LoSboccacc on April 15, 2019, 02:21:11 am
Whoa. :oSpoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: and his mousepad (click to show/hide)
Post by: Telgin on April 18, 2019, 08:56:35 am
Looks like habitats and ring worlds will finally be useful again, and I really like that mega engineering is going to be a more common tech as you build more high level starbases and habitats. Even better is that Master Builders will let you build / upgrade two megastructures at once, finally, like people have been requesting forever.
My only fear is that they're already talking about another DLC, so I guess the dev cycle really didn't change at all after the Megacorp quality disaster.
Post by: Kanil on April 18, 2019, 10:55:58 pm
Ring worlds, well... it's a little silly of them to say they're not gonna be farms anymore, then just show us a screenshot of the farm. Hopefully the other districts that aren't farms are interesting.
Post by: QuakeIV on April 18, 2019, 11:09:27 pm
Post by: Kanil on April 19, 2019, 12:55:59 am
No idea if they'll actually do that, but it seems like a step in that direction.
Post by: EuchreJack on April 19, 2019, 02:17:04 am
But good job on not locking away megastructures behind both research and accession perks.
Post by: Telgin on April 19, 2019, 04:45:28 pm
I'm not too sure about hugely reducing the granularity of ringworlds being an improvement. Seems like a small step backwards and otherwise changes nothing.
It helps with empire sprawl, which was one reason to not use them. Adding research districts allows them to contribute a proportional amount of research to your empire too instead of being limited by buildings.
I think the way they're handling it could use a lot of refinement (namely, the whole 16 buildings per planet thing no matter the size), but it's a little better than spending like 50K alloys on something that really only excels at farm space.
Post by: Cruxador on April 19, 2019, 09:10:20 pm
Those new accession perks suck, I doubt I would ever choose them.That puts them on the same level as most of the other ascension perks which are also quite disappointing, really. Aside from unlocking mega constructions which is all but mandatory in the current version of the game, and the three pairs that are actually ascendant, they all sort of have the effect of making you wish you could pick something better.
Post by: Telgin on April 25, 2019, 12:09:32 pm
That's kind of cool I guess, but I'd honestly just like to see all of the special projects redone this way. At least it looks like we may get some kind of overarching narrative now, like people have been asking for. Probably not very deep though, since grekulf mentioned it still being an emergent narrative.
Post by: Cruxador on April 25, 2019, 12:20:44 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on April 25, 2019, 12:24:02 pm
Post by: Teneb on April 25, 2019, 12:37:06 pm
That's kind of cool I guess, but I'd honestly just like to see all of the special projects redone this way.
Quote from: grekulf
I have been thinking about similar things as well. First thing is first though, and I want to see how the new content works out, and then rework/add more to this system.I like this approach
Post by: Cruxador on April 25, 2019, 04:08:31 pm
You know, I can't argue with that. Though we'll have to see how all this works in practice, I think he's got a better philosophy on game design.In terms of the system, he's pretty much covered all the bases. The remaining places were it could fall down seem mostly like details - if these are too common, too easy, or the benefits too small, for example - but those numbers are pretty easy to tweak. Or if they're powerful enough to sway the game (which the most important ones could be, I reckon) and they're not adequately communicated to the player. Aside from that, there's just the concern of the writing. That team is the same though, either entirely or mostly, so we have a pretty reasonable idea of what to expect based on the writing that's already in anomalies and events and stuff. There's also an issue of writing quantity - it could be like the precursor events and habitable world surveys and all that, where once you've done it once, it's boring. Hopefully the quantity and the design of these will be such that the only common ones are reasonably generic and easy, so it doesn't become tiresome, and the bigger set piece ones come up rarely enough to be interesting when you do get them.
It's also a good idea to notice that these are essentially the colonization events that were part of the intended design in the beginning but didn't make it in by launch, and then when Wiz was put in charge he just never did anything for them, despite knowing that the number one complaint was a boring midgame, because he doesn't believe in event based design. His position is that it isn't an effective use of dev time since once you see it, you've seen it, while new mechanics allow for emergent possibilities. And that's true. But especially in Stellaris where we don't have actual nations to rely on, an excessive reliance on emergent gameplay without narrative flavor to tie it together just winds up being a mediocre and boring "grey goo" gameplay. This archaeology stuff could go a long way to solve that issue.
Post by: Egan_BW on April 25, 2019, 10:24:35 pm
"Xenoarcheology is a deeply disturbing field of study." (https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2018-07-26)
Post by: Criptfeind on April 26, 2019, 08:55:47 am
Maybe I'm being too pessimistic. (Although who wouldn't be pessimistic after megacorp?). We'll see, and I'm glad there's someone new to at least give it a try because I was done hoping the team that gave us megacorp would ever fix the game.
I do like that they are things outside your border. More like, grey area of who owns what and stuff happening outside of your empire is great, and a first step towards stellaris having something to do other then just map paint constantly.
Post by: Cruxador on April 26, 2019, 11:59:02 am
"Okay, what have you learned?"Now there's someone that would write some great archeology chains. Considering they got Alexis Kennedy in before, it's not beyond the realm of possibility either.
"Xenoarcheology is a deeply disturbing field of study." (https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2018-07-26)
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 26, 2019, 01:04:01 pm
"Okay, what have you learned?"Now there's someone that would write some great archeology chains. Considering they got Alexis Kennedy in before, it's not beyond the realm of possibility either.
"Xenoarcheology is a deeply disturbing field of study." (https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2018-07-26)
agreed - i would love to see more alexis kennedy events
also wiz's opinion on design is mostly... not great. he gets a lot of stuff right as far as what's bad with certain things, but he's not that great at coming up with replacements. some of his stuff was ok in stellaris, some not.
Post by: Sartain on April 26, 2019, 01:29:38 pm
Post by: Cruxador on April 26, 2019, 01:58:25 pm
tbh though... I think wiz made a lot of mistakes, but I totally agree in this case. Story based events with some minors bonuses? This seems like it'll very quickly just be more text to click though without bothering to read, like all the current exploration stuff. I don't see how it'll make the game more fun outside of maybe the first game you play with it. Actual interesting mechanics and interactions that create interesting gameplay is what stellaris is sorely lacking and desperately needs, and although wiz totally failed to provide those, I'm not seeing any evidence that this new guy will either.The focus on sense of place is a big deal, though. If it was just "here's a canned bit of narrative" that would be one thing, that's how anomalies work, but this has potential to do a lot more than that.
In this case I meant Howard Tayler, the writer of what Egan linked. Not that bringing back Alexis Kennedy wouldn't also be good, but I doubt they will. Part of the purpose of a collaboration like that is to show off what you got to each other's audiences, and that's a benefit that you only really get the first time.agreed - i would love to see more alexis kennedy events"Okay, what have you learned?"Now there's someone that would write some great archeology chains. Considering they got Alexis Kennedy in before, it's not beyond the realm of possibility either.
"Xenoarcheology is a deeply disturbing field of study." (https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2018-07-26)
Post by: Criptfeind on April 26, 2019, 08:00:58 pm
Also whoops, rereading the dev diary I see I misread a bit, these won't be happening outside your borders, but rather inside them well. So much for my open faced opinion sandwich.
Post by: Cruxador on April 26, 2019, 08:47:54 pm
I don't really get what the different in potential is in a bit of random narrative floating in space vs a slightly longer bit of random narrative on a planet. I mean, sure, it has potential, but so does everything else, I don't get why this is a big deal or significantly different then the current random exploration things.Muh sense of place
Also they happen in the mid game.
Post by: Telgin on May 02, 2019, 08:48:44 am
Dev Diary (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-146-the-baol-and-the-zroni.1173457/)
I'm hoping they still do something to balance how OP the First League are, but at least randomizing the locations is something of a start to encouraging people to not just regenerate galaxies until they get the First League because of where they spawned. Then again, I guess for single player it's fine for people to do what they want, so making that a galaxy generation option would be nice. Mods will probably change it back to how it used to work too.
Really though, I'm hoping the archaeology system will make the precursors interesting and maybe relevant throughout the game. Or at least until midgame.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on May 03, 2019, 07:23:01 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on May 07, 2019, 09:09:32 pm
Do we have a rough schedule for the DLC? The archaeology stuff seems potentially interesting, looking forward to how they innovate, but I mostly want pops on the market. And more options to maximize the trade-value game.
Post by: Paul on May 07, 2019, 09:42:14 pm
Friiiick, I'm still jonesing for Megacorp. Do we think it's going on sale soon? Maybe when this coming DLC comes out, right? I'd love to finally pick up Apocalypse too, but more for Life Seeded/PostApoc/BarbaricDespoilers than the silly colossi.Megacorp is 25% off on https://www.wingamestore.com/product/9943/Stellaris-MegaCorp/
Do we have a rough schedule for the DLC? The archaeology stuff seems potentially interesting, looking forward to how they innovate, but I mostly want pops on the market. And more options to maximize the trade-value game.
Post by: Telgin on May 08, 2019, 08:28:44 am
Post by: Cruxador on May 08, 2019, 08:57:42 am
Friiiick, I'm still jonesing for Megacorp. Do we think it's going on sale soon? Maybe when this coming DLC comes out, right? I'd love to finally pick up Apocalypse too, but more for Life Seeded/PostApoc/BarbaricDespoilers than the silly colossi.Fair warning, all three of those kinda suck. Post-apocalyptic used to be good, but it was nerfed, life seeded was incidentally nerfed by the new economy, but will probably get better with more accessible habitats, and despoilers have never been good and likely never will be in the foreseeable future - raiding doesn't give you enough pops to make up for the mechanical detriments of having diverse races with the new population growth system, so having to permanently pay a slot for it is definitely not worth it.
Post by: Telgin on May 08, 2019, 09:09:38 am
Post by: Cruxador on May 08, 2019, 12:41:33 pm
Life-seeded is at least thematically fun, but it was arguably more fun and definitely more challenging before 2.2. In 2.2 you can still colonize anywhere as a life-seeded species and just have much higher pop upkeep. That does lead to some serious economic drain if you overextend yourself early on, which makes early colonization a tiny bit more tactical. It's made me wonder if they should seriously increase the penalties for low habitability to make all empires have to really stop and think before grabbing every last habitable planet in their space.The new guy says he does intend to make low habitability more harsh again.
Post by: Telgin on May 09, 2019, 09:39:57 am
Some improvements coming to sectors, and better colony automation. This has been a big issue for a lot of people since 2.2 so it's good that they're working on it. I'll hold my breath on the automatic building working well, but maybe they'll surprise me.
I imagine most people will be happy just to be able to manually specify sector capitals now.
Post by: Cruxador on May 09, 2019, 10:13:43 am
It's a bit disappointing how many of the discussed features won't make the next update, but whatever, it's been three years already, what's one more?
Post by: Telgin on May 09, 2019, 10:58:35 am
Post by: Cruxador on May 09, 2019, 02:49:31 pm
Ideally we'd be able to specify our build orders, but it sounds like it's going to just be presets you pick from. Still better than nothing I suppose, and at least opens the possibility up for player made lists in the future. If the presets don't take up every building slot so that there's some customization, and if you can still manually build on a planet that is set to use the automation, that might be good enough.The dev log is explicit about what happens, and doesn't say anything about preventing you from building, and the description implies that it won't have any reason to do that. Furthermore, it doesn't change anything you've already built.
Post by: Gabeux on May 09, 2019, 03:03:36 pm
It really won't help my wallet watching Paradox games videos, since now I want CK2, Cities Skylines, Stellaris and Tropico 6 and their DLCs, so I'll definitely be waiting for sales (and also for time to play all of those.. :P).
Post by: Rolan7 on May 09, 2019, 03:41:20 pm
Stellaris is on Sale (https://store.steampowered.com/app/281990/Stellaris/) due to its 3-year anniversary (yay!).MOTHERF- oh Megacorp only went down to $15.99, so I still got a better deal a couple days ago from Paul's link (thanks Paul!)
Fair enough since it's the most recent and all. I've been enjoying it a lot, too!
Post by: Dunamisdeos on May 11, 2019, 04:42:57 pm
Post by: MorleyDev on May 12, 2019, 05:53:37 am
I mean, after every one of these releases I play it for at least a month and add like 100 hours of playtime to it (really wish you could turn that off on Steam, I don't want to know how much of my life I've wasted -_-), so it's not like I'm not getting my moneys worth each time...
Also, despite those hundreds of hours I *legitimately did not know that Precursor spawns weren't randomised*. I just never noticed 0_o
Post by: Teneb on May 14, 2019, 05:56:26 pm
Ain't nothing we don't know already.
I... am actually am indiferent towards this?
Post by: Telgin on May 14, 2019, 06:37:04 pm
Post by: PTTG?? on May 14, 2019, 06:52:01 pm
Post by: Cruxador on May 14, 2019, 07:16:18 pm
Also, despite those hundreds of hours I *legitimately did not know that Precursor spawns weren't randomised*. I just never noticed 0_oI didn't notice either, I heard about it before realizing on my own.
Ancient Relics announced (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-ancient-relics-announcement-trailer.1177086/)Yeah, same. It's not bad. I expect I'll get it. But a story pack just isn't that exciting.
Ain't nothing we don't know already.
I... am actually am indiferent towards this?
Really could use combat that isn't a purely numbers-based game...From Paradox? I wouldn't hold my breath.
Post by: amjh on May 15, 2019, 12:35:47 am
Post by: Karnewarrior on May 15, 2019, 01:19:34 am
I think 4X games as a genre already are far too combat-focused.Victoria II was good about that; you could feasibly play the entire game without fighting a war, potentially (although dangerously) even without a military, and still be considered a great power thanks to your egregious economic might.
Not exactly a 4X though.
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 15, 2019, 05:01:19 am
I think 4X games as a genre already are far too combat-focused.With one of the four design pillars being exterminate how do you propose that works? Stellaris is one of a few 4x games you can play entirely without combat, or very little combat. I played as a fanatic pacifistic culture and only went to war 4 times the entire game, all defensive.
Post by: Telgin on May 15, 2019, 08:36:40 am
Post by: Cruxador on May 15, 2019, 09:53:25 am
Same here. In my current game I've gone about 150 game years with only about 20 corvettes, which did bait one neighbor into declaring war on me twice but they were so scared of my border stations they never even attempted to invade me. After a few years passed without a single shot fired they offered peace.You have to imagine it's a matter of their internal politics.
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 15, 2019, 10:43:56 am
Same here. In my current game I've gone about 150 game years with only about 20 corvettes, which did bait one neighbor into declaring war on me twice but they were so scared of my border stations they never even attempted to invade me. After a few years passed without a single shot fired they offered peace.This makes me wonder if its possible to play an entire game without a navy. I'd still need to tech up on weapons and armor so my defense stations are beasts. With no navy I could devote significantly more to building defense stations. Probably they'll get outclassed late midgame no matter what I do though.
Post by: Telgin on May 15, 2019, 10:52:23 am
Defensive border stations can easily stand up to AI empire fleets up until the mid game at least and really don't even need defense platforms at that point. I was able to keep my border stations above the largest fleets of my neighbors just by upgrading them to the biggest sizes available and making sure they had gun modules in every slot. If you have a particularly aggressive (or advanced start) neighbor, you might need defense platforms.
The real snag here is what happens if an awakened empire is near you. If you seriously invest in border stations you can beat their fleets, but it takes that investment, including a strategic coordination center and as many repeatable techs and defense platforms as you can fit on a station. I got one to almost 200K fleet power once doing this. The real problem with awakened empires is that they have jump drives, and while I've yet to see one actually bypass my border stations, I'm sure it happens.
And, of course, playing purely defensively won't work against the crises unless you're on a low crisis strength setting and are lucky enough for the galaxy to get its act together. I've yet to see the AI empires pose a credible threat to even weak crises, but maybe they can on 1x.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 15, 2019, 03:53:56 pm
Edit: So to be clear I actually like where Stellaris went since if you go in with a plan for who you want to fight and where you'll be more effective than with no plan, not necessarily true prior to the FTL rework.
Post by: ollobrains on May 15, 2019, 04:59:23 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on May 15, 2019, 05:44:33 pm
peeps should try the star trek new horizons mod, theres more lore / roleplay and a unique tech tree and a bit more of an engaging experience
Did they fix that junk where starbases always regenerated, so you couldn't invade anyone? That's what keeps me away from that.
Post by: Hanzoku on May 16, 2019, 07:44:39 am
Post by: Telgin on May 16, 2019, 08:09:58 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on May 16, 2019, 10:26:03 am
peeps should try the star trek new horizons mod, theres more lore / roleplay and a unique tech tree and a bit more of an engaging experience
it is insanely slow though. like if you think stellaris chugs at later dates, ST:NH does it the whole time, and only gets worse
Post by: Paul on May 16, 2019, 10:26:27 am
Even on the highest difficulty with all AI on advanced start I still surpass everyone in tech military and economy by mid game. The AI mods improve this some, but even modded the AI is woefully insufficient. I'm hoping they eventually take some time to work on that aspect and teach the AI to manage their empires a bit more efficiently.
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 17, 2019, 06:38:56 am
Finally got around to playing with the newest version, but I think I'm also already done with it. While I cautiously approve of how they've handled populations and planets, and I'm glad they finally removed that stupid leader cap, overall I feel like they just massively slowed down the game to little other benefit. Research proceeds at a crawl, while fleet and station caps are absurdly low so everyone's maximum fleet size is minuscule. Until now, 60 years in, I've seen exactly one war in the western half of the galaxy and there's no chance of a war anytime in the near future because neither I nor any of the AIs around me can muster enough fleet to make one worthwhile.Yeah I have to disagree too, unless you are still very early in the game? I've had no trouble doing early wars and stacking tech, to the point that I usually out-tech most nearby AI players to an absurd degree. Also, your fleet cap is more of a soft cap. You can exceed it, and SHOULD exceed it if gearing up for war. You're probably going to lose a bunch of those extra ships anyway so you won't be paying the maintenance for long. Stock up on alloys and credits beforehand so you can finance the war then build way over your cap. I sometimes go 50-75% over to ensure I have more firepower than the opponent.
Station caps are a bit low, just be judicious about where you place one. You don't need stations everywhere, just at chokepoints or at positions where one station can cover several trade resources. Once you get larger stations a single trade station can cover many systems so you can start removing old ones and making your trade network more efficient.
Post by: Radsoc on May 17, 2019, 06:46:54 am
Performance wise there is a difference between my i7 gen desktop and my i5 gen+1 laptop, where the end game is playable but not at any kind of sensible pace. I still don't get why people recommend i5. They just need to be replaced more often.
Don't know if you read about the utopian abundance "exploit" where you can use that mechanics to basically blow away all competition. It's hilarious.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 18, 2019, 01:57:49 am
Post by: Radsoc on May 18, 2019, 02:50:46 am
Post by: E. Albright on May 18, 2019, 10:04:40 am
Post by: Paul on May 18, 2019, 10:36:30 am
Post by: Radsoc on May 18, 2019, 11:06:34 am
Post by: E. Albright on May 18, 2019, 11:29:52 am
I'm not saying it's a hopeless idea, but it's definitely not a magic bullet.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 18, 2019, 11:35:21 am
Post by: EuchreJack on May 18, 2019, 01:49:51 pm
Just teaching the AI some basic patterns for efficient colony management and having it use advantageous things that the player uses (like encourage growth decision) would go a long way. Right now they grow really slowly and build so sub-optimally that they fall behind even with a huge handicap with the highest difficulty. I've looked at some of the AI empires part way through games and found them suffering from special resource and mineral and food shortages and totally crippled, while their worlds that should be producing food and minerals are short on workers due to everyone being promoted to specialists running the big upgraded buildings which are causing the special resource shortages.
Having played a bit, it is possible that resource shortages could be a strategy based upon the market, where its usually cheaper to buy food and minerals and sell alloys. Instead of the AI being "broken", it might have just adapted to the implementation of the market.
Post by: Radsoc on May 18, 2019, 07:03:12 pm
Intermediate score-based analysis seems like a very fraught path to pursue when a game has as much potentially far-reaching randomness as Stellaris. This sort of approach could easily lead to AIs who do reasonably well most of the time but completely fall apart under particular circumstances. More generally, having a good score at a particular moment is not perforce a good predictor of future score (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_climbing#Local_maxima); not all situations producing good score values are equal.
I'm not saying it's a hopeless idea, but it's definitely not a magic bullet.
That would be a place for the neural net. You generate actions sequences on the go (and from memory), but the neural net finds patterns in when to employ them. This would of course require Paradox to fund things that may not be commercially viable within reasonable time frames (for them) and they could very well survive and keep rolling without improving AI that way, but once more games employ new AI, that kind of companies would only survive on licensed thematic trademarks or MP features (which already ruin games due to too conservative near-symmetrical balance). The total war series is another example there.
Post by: Telgin on May 18, 2019, 07:37:34 pm
One of the cool things about Age of Mythology was some experimentation done with giving AI personalities. Besides obvious AI improvements to executing strategies, they found you could make more human-like AI by giving them a certain level of personality - AIs that overestimated the strengths of their opponents or underestimated the strengths of their opponents being one such factor. It's rather alike CK2's personality system, where cowardly, brave, zealous, greedy or mad characters were more or less likely to go to war at certain times
Stellaris does this too, to a point, doesn't it? I've never really noticed much difference though, since I think most of the difference manifests as opinion modifiers, but a few personalities declare war more readily.
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 18, 2019, 07:39:25 pm
Post by: E. Albright on May 18, 2019, 10:24:39 pm
That would be a place for the neural net.
You ARE treating this as a magic bullet, though. Alphabet used neural nets to beat a human Go master on a full board w/o handicaps in 2015. In Go. Go is much simpler than something like this both in terms of feature space and possible actions, but it took Alphabet throwing resources at this to get to where an AI could beat a master a couple of years ago.
We're not there yet, and I'd not hold your breath. As forsaken1111 points out, this is a VERY messy, poorly-defined problem for an AI to solve.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 18, 2019, 10:46:40 pm
While those bots were promising for the future of AI, from a game dev standpoint they're not appealing. The game dev's goal isn't to BEAT the player, its provide them with a convincing and satisfying opponent. As mediocre as Paradox's AIs might be, they're better than what a neural net would currently produce.
Post by: Radsoc on May 19, 2019, 03:56:20 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 19, 2019, 10:34:09 am
Stellaris does this too, to a point, doesn't it? I've never really noticed much difference though, since I think most of the difference manifests as opinion modifiers, but a few personalities declare war more readily.It says they do this, but I've never noticed. I think this is because the power discrepancy between Empires is either too close or too far to make a difference
Post by: E. Albright on May 19, 2019, 11:46:25 am
The problem is that it's a different branch of science with almost no everyday commercial use.
This is flat-out wrong. Statistical AI is currently and increasingly applicable to everyday commercial use. Machine learning is everywhere. Big data analysis is everywhere. 10 years ago the everyday part might not have been true, but even then the commercial part definitely was not.
It's not "database programming" common, but we're not talking about some obscure field practiced only in the rarefied atmospheres of academia.
Post by: Radsoc on May 19, 2019, 11:58:13 am
The problem is that it's a different branch of science with almost no everyday commercial use.
This is flat-out wrong. Statistical AI is currently and increasingly applicable to everyday commercial use. Machine learning is everywhere. Big data analysis is everywhere. 10 years ago the everyday part might not have been true, but even then the commercial part definitely was not.
It's not "database programming" common, but we're not talking about some obscure field practiced only in the rarefied atmospheres of academia.
That's what I mean, most CS, or other, graduates don't deal with AI. Only a subset works for businesses that do AI, and less are directly involved. I mean e.g. Amazon is a big company, but the people who write recommendation algorithms etc are a tiny part. Most employers want the "database"-part of it, and that's where the main competition is. Then you have the high risk startups and big corps that have their own research departments.
Post by: E. Albright on May 19, 2019, 12:08:44 pm
Ipsil brought up the biggest impracticality of this approach, though, and it's one that you'd face even if you could frontload all the computing so at runtime it was just applying decision trees: all that upfront computing would need to be re-applied after every patch. Go has a simple feature selection space and limited available actions, so even though the solution space mushrooms massively, it could be tackled with such an approach. But that's because the rules are static. If Go was getting significant rule changes every few months within a non-trivial feature set and to a broad range of possible actions, it would very emphatically not be an attractive candidate. And that's where 4x games sit.
Post by: Radsoc on May 19, 2019, 12:46:38 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfb6aEUMC04
And very recent. Stellaris is a bit more complex, but here you have unpredictability, planning, unit placement and randomness introduced by the player(s). It still is extremely robust and beats standard AI (which in essence is made obsolete in this game).
Patches and game mechanic changes would make it impractical, yes. However, it doesn't necessarily have to mean that the net wouldn't be robust enough to handle it. In a worst case scenario you would have to retrain it overnight or more. Even with patch changes it is the only attractive candidate if someone wants decent AI. ;)
So, basically, if you developed AI for that game, would you continue to improve it, knowing that efforts are bringing diminishing returns, and changes with patches as well, or go with OpenAI? What if it was possible for Stellaris/Clausewitz? I don't think it will be done, but it's the principle. If the strategy game companies of today are to survive, they have to take a risk.
Post by: E. Albright on May 19, 2019, 01:22:07 pm
In a worst case scenario you would have to retrain it overnight or more. Even with patch changes it is the only attractive candidate if someone wants decent AI. ;)
"or more" is doing heavy lifting here. The techniques you're discussing need good human players to train off of - OpenAI is certainly relying on the availability of them. So every time the game significantly changes (which per the Paradox model is every DLC), you'd need to get a stable of very good players with various playstyles to generate training data and for the nascent AIs to train against. That would likely be weeks if not months. Every time you make major changes. This just doesn't seem viable or fiscally attractive in terms of ROI - the industry push is "good enough" rationalist AI and let MP take care of the people who want a human-level opponent. The time and resource requirements for machine learning-based AIs seem like they'd need to drop significantly before they became attractive to devs.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 19, 2019, 01:25:40 pm
1. It is actually looking at the screen the same way a player does
2. It doesn't act convincing (see: places sentry wards under towers)
3. Its way too good/ruthless (because its been trained to the standard of winning, which isn't necessarily a good goal for a video game AI)
4. DOTA 2 had to be altered for the AI to be able to play it, in particular both teams were given 5 invincible couriers, because the AI could never learn how to use them. Additionally the hero pool was limited to nukey heroes that didn't scale well off agility*.
5. Stellaris is far less friendly towards this kind of AI. DOTA 2 has a static map, static scenario, and much like chess the game state consists of a series of values that can be measured on a good/bad scale. This isn't true in Stellaris because in Stellaris most assets a player can have are both good and bad, because the game state involves variables that can vary in number instead of just value, and because the game state cannot be interpreted without understanding the intents of the players involved**.
*both the courier and "hard carry" heroes are inherently hard for the AI to handle because they require it to make value judgments between which of its 5 heroes are most valuable. The courier would be especially difficult because it provides only a positional advantage (something the AI would be weighted not to care too much about) but risks feeding a massive bounty to the enemy team (something a DOTA 2 AI would definitely be weighted to hate).
**hence why Stellaris is somewhat like a board game. Its the same reason "OpenAI Catan" would be an exercise in madness.
Post by: Radsoc on May 19, 2019, 01:52:03 pm
This one doesn't seem to look at the screen the same way a player does. (No need for image recognition - and then you would probably have to strip graphics down a lot). I think it has direct access to the game. If it acts convincing or not is difficult to say and hard to measure. In the video they mention that it seemed to act suboptimally/make mistakes (but which eventually made sense). It will probably exploit mechanics if there's an opportunity, but that's the fault of the mechanics and the incentives supplied there really. If it's too good, you just grab it at a smaller generation number. They mentioned that in the vid. Early on it would only beat casual players. The thing is that you can handicap it, while you today have to handicap yourself. Victory goals and personalities could be accounted for in the same way, by adjusting goals.
Stellaris is a slower game though, but if time is measured as interactions/events per minute Dota could be in the lead. The strength of nets is robustness to peculiarities of games. I believe this is doable in principle, but yes, I agree there are too many practical problems, but I believe that if Paradox took a small chunk of the money they get, they would get their investment back in a decade.
I stopped playing lots of strategy games in SP due to AI. In civ 5, in 2/3 campaigns I never lost a unit (except cruise missiles). In Shogun 2 I lost 2 battles out of 100, and they were auto. Dominions 4/5 is almost unplayable in SP, apart form a trainer for MP. If Stellaris didn't have story driven events or mods I would only play it for the challenge of learning the game and then leave it. Right now the Star Trek mod is excellent.
Post by: E. Albright on May 19, 2019, 06:11:22 pm
I don't know enough about MOBA games to make any comments on the complexity involved, but what EnigmaticHat says points towards this being a pretty bad parallel even if we ignore the rules being crippled to handicap the players' advantages. There may be a lot of moving parts, but not as much complexity in how those interact with each other or the environment - and the specific sort of necessary handicaps (i.e., involving non-straightforward play) points towards this not being good evidence of parallels to a PITA complexity like Stellaris.
Post by: Telgin on May 23, 2019, 08:30:47 am
Of note, Stellaris will be 64-bit (only) in 2.3, and performance is expected to be 10-30% better. The devs also took some AI weighting from Glavius's mod to improve the AI.
Post by: Telgin on May 30, 2019, 12:54:08 pm
Copied for quick access:
Spoiler: Patch Notes (click to show/hide)
I really like most of these changes. Making habitability have more teeth is a good thing, although it means I probably won't try any more Life-Seeded games for a while. The changes to habitats and ring worlds were also long overdue.
One thing that kind of confuses me is how much of a buff the Dyson sphere got. I'm not sure what the point of generating so much energy is, but I guess it means I'll have to invest less alloys in them now and just upgrade them one or two stages.
Post by: Cruxador on May 30, 2019, 05:23:36 pm
Regarding the Dyson sphere, they may have found it not worth investing in on their own office games, but it has been a complaint since the inception of the megastructure system that the Dyson sphere is not a big enough deal. Since this should allow it to actually serve your empire's entire energy needs on a non-small map, this seems about right to me.
Post by: Telgin on May 30, 2019, 07:45:00 pm
And that may be right about the Dyson sphere, and to a lesser extent the matter decompressor. I always end up building both and they're never enough on their own. I found myself still building energy districts in the end game in my last game even with Capacity Overload, and actually got to the point of having no net mineral production because of alloy and consumer goods consumption.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on May 30, 2019, 09:47:25 pm
Post by: askovdk on May 31, 2019, 03:13:47 am
I've always used mods for multiple dyson spheres, allowing them to actually sate the energy thirst of a mature empire seems like a good call.
... around the same sun? That would just be sooo wrong. :)
Post by: E. Albright on May 31, 2019, 08:41:50 am
Gotta say, I don't much like that the whole system of archeology (rather than just the content that currently uses it) is locked behind DLC. Hopefully they change that after adding more relevant content in future releases, rather than just leaving it as an isolated system and not iterating on it.
Quote from: Patchnotes
###################
# Modding
###################
* The Archaeology system from Ancient Relics is open for modding use, to create your own multi-stage event chains
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 31, 2019, 09:26:23 am
Quote
* Implemented improved AI building selection weights (thanks to Glavius for awesome insight here)tfw modders fix your game
Post by: Cruxador on May 31, 2019, 03:05:24 pm
I saw that. That doesn't mean that it doesn't require the DLC though, that just means that the system is formulated as plain text raws rather than hard coded. Notice on the other hand that the archeology box, which is under the story pack heading, starts out by saying "a system" and there is no corresponding points later on except the one you quoted. Maybe this is misleading and they've clarified elsewhere to that effect, but based on this it looks like the entire new feature and, therefore, all content using it (including mod content) will be DLC locked. I hope this isn't actually the case or doesn't remain the case, which seems reasonably likely considering it's not consistent with the practical design principles of their general development paradigm, but that's definitely what they've written there.Gotta say, I don't much like that the whole system of archeology (rather than just the content that currently uses it) is locked behind DLC. Hopefully they change that after adding more relevant content in future releases, rather than just leaving it as an isolated system and not iterating on it.Quote from: Patchnotes###################
# Modding
###################
* The Archaeology system from Ancient Relics is open for modding use, to create your own multi-stage event chains
This is good though. Since the work has been done, they should include it.Quote* Implemented improved AI building selection weights (thanks to Glavius for awesome insight here)tfw modders fix your game
Post by: E. Albright on May 31, 2019, 05:44:18 pm
That doesn't mean that it doesn't require the DLC though, that just means that the system is formulated as plain text raws rather than hard coded.
The fact that the quoted text re: modding was in the "2.3.0 'Wolfe' Free Features" portion of the patch notes rather than in the "Ancient Relics Story Pack Features" portion makes your interpretation kinda hard for me to reach, particularly given the past behaviors of Paradox you mention. I suppose I could be wrong, but there's nothing I see in the patch notes that looks particularly ambiguous to me.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 31, 2019, 08:51:53 pm
tfw you get paid to take other's work for freeThis is good though. Since the work has been done, they should include it.Quote* Implemented improved AI building selection weights (thanks to Glavius for awesome insight here)tfw modders fix your game
Post by: Persus13 on June 01, 2019, 08:03:23 am
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 01, 2019, 03:29:45 pm
I was able to wipe the assimilator out by forcing peace with the purifiers and focusing my attention. I've since been in two wars with the purifiers, and in both of them noone gained any ground.
However, with the territory I've taken, it should soon be a simple matter to outpace the purifiers.
Post by: Telgin on June 01, 2019, 08:19:02 pm
Anyway, after beating that game I went back to pick up the game I abandoned where I thought I was going to lose to the Unbidden. My main problem in that game was a weak economy, partially because I was in the middle of the War in Heaven and my allies kept conquering systems that flipped to me, and since they were badly built up the planets were a net drain on my economy. Couldn't release them as vassals either since I was in a war. So... I just disabled all of the buildings and forgot about them. I'll let them go as soon as the war ends. Until then, I've redesigned my ships to use pure kinetic weapons and have focused all research on improving shields and kinetic weapons. Battles with the Unbidden have been going much better, and I think I can turn this around now.
On the subject of the 2.3 patch, I'm really looking forward to habitats and ring worlds again. Habitats in particular are going to be so much better now, since they can build most of the buildings they couldn't previously, and can get mining, energy and science districts now if built over celestial bodies with deposits. The districts also provide housing now, so habitats can have larger populations. Ring worlds look like they're going to be more like ecumenopoleis now, so that's good too, although I'm sitting here and wondering why you'd ever build a habitation segment with 70 housing when you'd never employ all of the workers. I'd expect that even small decreases in housing utilization the other segments would give enough spare housing to give enough pops to work any buildings you build.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 01, 2019, 08:25:37 pm
Edit: I am so hype for habitats and maybe even ring worlds OMGS.
I kinda want to make/take a mod that lets me play *actually tall* with habitats. The early-game rush is a.... rush, but my couple Inward Perfection runs with relatively small territory felt more like the ideal game, to me.
Post by: Cruxador on June 01, 2019, 11:01:40 pm
He made it for their game for free. You can argue that they shouldn't have needed him to, but ultimately they're really just a bunch of Swedes in an office somewhere. You can't reasonably expect them to always do everything better than everyone else.tfw you get paid to take other's work for freeThis is good though. Since the work has been done, they should include it.Quote* Implemented improved AI building selection weights (thanks to Glavius for awesome insight here)tfw modders fix your game
Post by: Kanil on June 01, 2019, 11:27:17 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 02, 2019, 12:01:55 am
Post by: Telgin on June 02, 2019, 12:21:05 am
Re the first part: I can't remember where I read this so it might be BS, but I think AI players are able to trigger the "emergency jump" when not in combat. I feel like I've seen it happen, but I'm not sure.
Perhaps, but there never seemed to be any reason for it to do that either. The system was unclaimed and had no hostile space creatures in it, so I'm guessing it was a glitch related to the construction ship that would have affected human players too, but I've never seen it happen before.
Post by: Trolldefender99 on June 04, 2019, 11:47:55 am
Post by: Radsoc on June 04, 2019, 12:09:41 pm
Post by: Telgin on June 04, 2019, 02:01:02 pm
I'm really looking forward to the habitat and megastructure changes so I might be happy with just the patch for a while, but I've put over 500 hours into this game so far so it's arguably been worth the money even if I buy another DLC...
Post by: Radsoc on June 04, 2019, 11:26:27 pm
Post by: Telgin on June 05, 2019, 08:12:17 am
Despite my fears I didn't run into any bugs though. Supposedly, robot job prioritization is very broken right now, but I'd only just unlocked the tech when I had to quit so I didn't get to experience that. I didn't have any problems launching the game like a few people have reported either.
I didn't really get much chance to see the new features though due to a bad start. I had a single dig site in my borders, where my neighbors all had 2-4 in theirs, and one even had a relic world. You can only perform archaeology digs in sites within your borders, which makes sense I guess. The one dig site I got to play around with was kind of cool, but in the end the archaeology system works more or less like I expected: it's special projects with multiple steps that just take a random amount of time to complete now. I like that there's a little more interactivity there now and that it has the potential to keep the discovery phase of the game going past the early game, but I got unlucky so I exhausted it all within 20 game years.
I also didn't get a chance to use any minor artifacts. I picked up one from that dig site, if I remember right, and maybe a dozen from the Irassian precursor event chain, but never could figure out how to do anything with them. I believe you have to research one or more technologies to make use of them, but I didn't get any of the tech cards by 2230. I expected there to be an indicator somewhere of how many you had though, which I couldn't find. Maybe that only shows up once you research the techs.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 05, 2019, 08:57:45 am
Post by: Telgin on June 05, 2019, 09:09:03 am
I was wondering if relic worlds would be worth turning into research planets. The small number of districts kind of sucks, but they get +15% to all research output, right? If you built nothing but city districts and got some housing bonus techs then you might be able to get enough pops working research jobs to be worth it, but it sounds like it's probably not worth it compared to just turning it into an ecumenopolis so you can get the consumer goods, alloys and trade value too.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 05, 2019, 12:57:48 pm
I've started slowly phasing it out in favor of higher-level kinetics, but wow it makes enemy shields utterly meaningless for quite some time.
Post by: PTTG?? on June 05, 2019, 04:15:38 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 05, 2019, 06:51:35 pm
I really want to get into Stellaris, but every time I sit down to start a game, I realize I need to spend three hours playing the early game and seeing the same anomalies and I quit to do anything else.
depending on how long ago that was, they've actually updated things quite a bit
Post by: Telgin on June 05, 2019, 06:59:42 pm
If you haven't played since 2.2 I would suggest at least giving it a chance. The change in the economy should keep the game interesting for a while at least.
Post by: MorleyDev on June 07, 2019, 05:21:39 am
Anyhoo, doing a Life Seeded Agrarian Idyll Pacifist Fanatic Materialist play (basically building super tall and rushing ALL OF THE SCIENCE). Then I got the Boal precursor and...holy heck the Boal reward is a powerful for tall.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Radsoc on June 08, 2019, 05:00:43 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 08, 2019, 05:56:15 am
Thirty years into the game I got a titan. Then my neighbour declared war, which they, of course lost, only to unlock an artifact with a guard that got disabled after ten titan sorties, :P Good start. Unfortunately, caravans get stuck at your home planet now. And did they ever fix the utopian abundance super exploit?I too got a titan once. Then I upgraded the fleet it was in, and it was refitted to some barebones basic design. So watch out for that.
Post by: Radsoc on June 08, 2019, 06:05:28 am
Post by: MorleyDev on June 08, 2019, 07:27:37 am
Early-Game Fanatic Purifiers with Dark Matter Deflectors is just gg galaxy, see you next cycle.
Post by: Wiles on June 10, 2019, 06:10:25 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 10, 2019, 06:39:50 am
I am trying to terraform a planet, I clicked on the terraform button, clicked on the climate I want, and it is telling me it will take 360 days on the outliner. But this timer never ticks down. Am I missing a step? Or is the game just bugged?You sure it's 360? The quickest terraforms (without boosters) take 5 years. Some take 10, so it could be 3600 with one zero cut off by the interface. (guessing here)
Post by: Wiles on June 10, 2019, 08:30:21 am
The nanite world however says 360 for time but never ticks down. I'm sure I had a pop up earlier in the game that said I could terraform those worlds.
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 10, 2019, 08:37:34 am
Post by: Biowraith on June 10, 2019, 10:58:15 am
Post by: Radsoc on June 10, 2019, 11:45:56 am
Post by: Culise on June 10, 2019, 07:00:40 pm
Terraforming seems to be broken at the moment for barren terraforming candidates - it sits at 3600 on the timer forever. Maybe the same is true for nanite worlds.Oh, I thought that was just the mod or combination of mods I was playing. That's a pity.
Post by: Telgin on June 10, 2019, 11:25:54 pm
Well, I guess the performance changes could have broken it, but it again seems kind of unbelievable that these problems aren't being caught by QA, or if they are that the management team tells them to publish the game anyway. I'd hate to work for Paradox if that's how it goes, and it sounded like that was the case after 2.2.
Unrelated, but it took me ages to figure out how to spend minor artifacts. To my knowledge, there's absolutely no indication that they're tracked on the same screen as traditions (for some reason) under a different tab. I actually made it 100 years into a game before I figured that out.
All of that said, some of the dig sites are actually pretty cool, and I like the rewards I've gotten from a few.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 11, 2019, 04:34:15 am
I find it amusing that all of these bugs seem to happen in systems that shouldn't have even been touchedYeah welcome to programming. In one of my own projects I once implemented a new style (visual only) of icon fade for a skill cooldown and it ended up breaking the ability to talk to NPCs. The links between systems aren't always obvious.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 11, 2019, 07:33:46 am
I find it amusing that all of these bugs seem to happen in systems that shouldn't have even been touched by the DLC. Like, why are caravan fleets getting stuck or synthetic ascension breaking your primary species? What was even changed that could break things like that? Or terraforming speed?
Well, I guess the performance changes could have broken it, but it again seems kind of unbelievable that these problems aren't being caught by QA, or if they are that the management team tells them to publish the game anyway. I'd hate to work for Paradox if that's how it goes, and it sounded like that was the case after 2.2.
Management likely has no idea about specific bugs like that. The more likely answer is poor version control. This is Paradox' bread and butter for years now. They fix something in one version of the code, only to revert it by accident later when they release a major update that's based on a version of the code from before the fix.
This has happened so many times with EU4, CK2, etc, that I've lost count. People who have worked there have confirmed that they fundamentally don't have real software development practices in place. They just kind of do it as they go along. When they were really a niche indie developer 10 or 15 years ago, fine, whatever.
Post by: Wiles on June 11, 2019, 10:09:08 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 11, 2019, 10:41:41 am
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 11, 2019, 01:58:58 pm
They just sit there forever locked in battle with your fleet and will chip it down to nothing and win. Gotta kill it with console commands.
Post by: Cruxador on June 12, 2019, 02:15:37 pm
I find it amusing that all of these bugs seem to happen in systems that shouldn't have even been touched by the DLC.The free update included a switch to 64 bit processing. Therefore, everything was potentially touched, and sometimes in weird ways.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 12, 2019, 02:27:12 pm
Oh yeah, mine's when defending armies become unkillable because they recover 1/4 of their max health health every few days until they suddenly stop doing that.
I've had it where I've invaded a planet and had to retreat because the defending army kept jumping up to ~250/200 health somehow. It only stopped once I bombarded the planet to 100% devastation, and I'm unsure if that's the cause or if the game coincidentally went "Oh, hang on that's not supposed to happen!"
I got mad at a bug like this once and changed the planet to toxic and back.
Post by: Telgin on June 12, 2019, 04:58:21 pm
I find it amusing that all of these bugs seem to happen in systems that shouldn't have even been touchedYeah welcome to programming. In one of my own projects I once implemented a new style (visual only) of icon fade for a skill cooldown and it ended up breaking the ability to talk to NPCs. The links between systems aren't always obvious.
Oh, sure. I'm a programmer so I get it. I just...
Management likely has no idea about specific bugs like that. The more likely answer is poor version control. This is Paradox' bread and butter for years now. They fix something in one version of the code, only to revert it by accident later when they release a major update that's based on a version of the code from before the fix.
This has happened so many times with EU4, CK2, etc, that I've lost count. People who have worked there have confirmed that they fundamentally don't have real software development practices in place. They just kind of do it as they go along. When they were really a niche indie developer 10 or 15 years ago, fine, whatever.
Okay, yeah, that explains it. They have no real source control and almost certainly no formal testing procedures, much less anything like system level automated testing that ensures that, say, the pathfinding algorithm doesn't break because they had the audacity to glance at the crisis code. They probably just have a couple of interns play the game for an hour or two before release, and if the game doesn't crash, they're not going to notice 90% of the bugs.
Post by: Cruxador on June 12, 2019, 10:53:45 pm
So... has this reached a reasonable state worth playing, yet?I would say the economy overhaul has made it worth a couple evenings of free time, assuming you've got that, but since the latest patch introduced a bunch of new (and in many cases serious) bugs, maybe wait for a bugfix.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 13, 2019, 07:38:05 am
So... has this reached a reasonable state worth playing, yet?I'd hold off until they finish fixing all the shit they broke in the last big patch/expansion
Post by: eerr on June 13, 2019, 04:58:54 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 13, 2019, 05:55:11 pm
Like, maybe, ONE has had some kind interesting thing emerge from it at the end.
Post by: Cruxador on June 13, 2019, 08:03:45 pm
I can't say I'm really impressed with the archaeology stuff. I've done like half a dozen and it's just EU4 siege system for a bunch of text updates with some goofy rewards. There aren't any choices or anything else remotely interesting about them except a small-medium wall of text.Yeah, from the way they were talking about it in the devlogs, they were basically using this time to add the new system, but the content using the system is still fairly basic. It's more about potential than the current crop.
Like, maybe, ONE has had some kind interesting thing emerge from it at the end.
One would think that after this much time we'd be past the "add new features" stage of the game - what is often called the alpha - but I suppose it's understandable that the new head dude wants to put his own ideas in. To be fair, it's definitely a good idea for a system, it's just a bit awkward putting it on a game that under most devs would be close to the end of its life cycle, not the beginning.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 13, 2019, 08:16:36 pm
One would think that after this much time we'd be past the "add new features" stage of the game - what is often called the alpha -Cripes, you're not wrong. Though I say CK2 shows that adding new features over time can work well. Perhaps modern games (with trustworthy developers) break the old model of alpha-beta-release-fix-expansion.
No wait this is just the expansion phase, but with digital delivery. and a lack of "fix"
but I suppose it's understandable that the new head dude wants to put his own ideas in. To be fair, it's definitely a good idea for a system, it's just a bit awkward putting it on a game that under most devs would be close to the end of its life cycle, not the beginning.I don't give a fig for "relics" I just wanted to play with habitats and there's all this broken stuff.
But drunk whining aside, it's probably the 64bit move, which is *awesome* and I actually remain very happy with Paradox.
Post by: Egan_BW on June 13, 2019, 08:52:05 pm
See Total Warhammer 2, which is basically just Total Warhammer 1 but with a different game's worth of content.
Post by: ollobrains on June 14, 2019, 02:20:45 am
The seasonal model of elite dangerous is another option
Post by: Egan_BW on June 14, 2019, 02:22:55 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 14, 2019, 11:19:33 am
Post by: Cruxador on June 14, 2019, 12:58:25 pm
what they should do is say with ck2, is any dlc that are from older than 5 years should now be rolled into the base game, and anything less have a pricing structure that slowly drops over time. That way paradox could keep it going but not screw older players over with 50 dlcThey won't do that, because age of DLC is not the determining factor in which DLCs people buy. There are many old ones that still sell well. And Paradox is a for profit company and a publicly traded one, as of recently, which means that not only do they want money, but they have an obligation to their stockholders to ensure that they make as much as possible.
The seasonal model of elite dangerous is another option
Post by: Wiles on June 15, 2019, 08:55:38 am
They won't do that, because age of DLC is not the determining factor in which DLCs people buy. There are many old ones that still sell well. And Paradox is a for profit company and a publicly traded one, as of recently, which means that not only do they want money, but they have an obligation to their stockholders to ensure that they make as much as possible.
Giving more value in the base package doesn't necessarily mean they'd make less money. You can't sell DLC to people who don't make the purchase in the first place. Looking at a game with many years of DLC can be so off-putting for some that they won't buy it at all. Games like Crusader Kings and Europa Universalis make it very confusing for new players, if you visit forums or subreddits about them you'll see posts like "which dlc are essential" fairly often. I know I didn't buy Crusader Kings II because there was already so much DLC out that I didn't want to spend all that money on one game at one time. Also, going in without the DLC the community deemed essential didn't appeal to me. Eventually they had a sale that bundled all the DLC they had released up until the "Old Gods" for like 20 bucks. They've been taking my money ever since :P
Post by: Draignean on June 15, 2019, 09:37:59 am
They won't do that, because age of DLC is not the determining factor in which DLCs people buy. There are many old ones that still sell well. And Paradox is a for profit company and a publicly traded one, as of recently, which means that not only do they want money, but they have an obligation to their stockholders to ensure that they make as much as possible.
Giving more value in the base package doesn't necessarily mean they'd make less money. You can't sell DLC to people who don't make the purchase in the first place. Looking at a game with many years of DLC can be so off-putting for some that they won't buy it at all. Games like Crusader Kings and Europa Universalis make it very confusing for new players, if you visit forums or subreddits about them you'll see posts like "which dlc are essential" fairly often. I know I didn't buy Crusader Kings II because there was already so much DLC out that I didn't want to spend all that money on one game at one time. Also, going in without the DLC the community deemed essential didn't appeal to me. Eventually they had a sale that bundled all the DLC they had released up until the "Old Gods" dlc for like 20 bucks. They've been taking my money ever since :P
Yar, I have CK2 because it was free for a couple days. I then looked at the DLC and decided I was better off focusing my Paradox affection on Stellaris rather than trying to get big Vinny to extend me another line of credit.
I want to love DLC, but too often it contrasts with my now old-fashioned beliefs on what expansion content should be, and I can't quite justify paying several hundred dollars for the 'complete' experience of a particular game.
Post by: tnc on June 19, 2019, 09:16:41 am
Post by: Telgin on June 19, 2019, 12:01:07 pm
There's another AI mod called STARNET I believe, which is supposed to make the AI extremely aggressive and buffs it to make it much better at wars. Never tried it either though.
Post by: Cruxador on June 19, 2019, 12:04:47 pm
Post by: tnc on June 20, 2019, 06:56:41 am
Glavius build priorities were incorporated into the base game anyway. I'm not sure there's a lot of great improvements that still reside within the realm of mods.
Oh really? I wonder if they paid him for his work.
Post by: Cruxador on June 20, 2019, 10:33:13 am
I'll give you three guesses and the first two don't count.Glavius build priorities were incorporated into the base game anyway. I'm not sure there's a lot of great improvements that still reside within the realm of mods.
Oh really? I wonder if they paid him for his work.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on June 20, 2019, 11:47:06 am
Unrelated: Why are the reports on war score inaccurate? I scratched a 20 ship fleet, an 8 ship fleet, and a transport fleet in one battle and it's listed as 8, 3, and 2 being destroyed in three instances of the same battle. I mean for as long as I've been playing I've never seen those numbers come out correct, that's not a bug it's a feature not working. It's a little weird that a professionally made game that's undergoing continued development would have just nonfunctional features that prominently.
Post by: tnc on June 20, 2019, 12:21:26 pm
I'll give you three guesses and the first two don't count.Does that mean I get infinite guesses?
Post by: Teneb on June 20, 2019, 12:59:40 pm
Only if you buy the infinite guesses dlc.I'll give you three guesses and the first two don't count.Does that mean I get infinite guesses?
Post by: Telgin on June 20, 2019, 01:16:14 pm
It's a little weird that a professionally made game that's undergoing continued development would have just nonfunctional features that prominently.
I continue to be surprised at how bad the QA is in Stellaris.
In this particular case I'm not sure what's going on with it, but judging by the bugs I've seen reported for a long time it feels like a lot of features in Stellaris rely on logic that's prone to race conditions. Lots of things seem to have small chances of glitching out because a species, planet or ship did something before some asynchronous code ran, which wasn't expecting that to happen.
In this case it feels like it's probably just a plain bug where the war exhaustion report just treats each fleet as a separate battle when it doesn't need to. Kind of like the bug where the tooltip for the popup for democratic elections never displays the custom empire title for the ruler despite it working everywhere else. It's been reported as a bug every patch for years but never gets fixed. Paradox reworks the game at a breakneck pace and doesn't seem interested in trying to polish it.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on June 20, 2019, 04:03:27 pm
Well it's not just that it's listing three battles, the numbers are wrong and I don't think I've ever seen them actually come out correct. According to the battle report I destroyed over thirty ships but the war score screen only lists them as losing a combined 13.
I continue to be surprised at how bad the QA is in Stellaris.
In this particular case I'm not sure what's going on with it, but judging by the bugs I've seen reported for a long time it feels like a lot of features in Stellaris rely on logic that's prone to race conditions. Lots of things seem to have small chances of glitching out because a species, planet or ship did something before some asynchronous code ran, which wasn't expecting that to happen.
In this case it feels like it's probably just a plain bug where the war exhaustion report just treats each fleet as a separate battle when it doesn't need to. Kind of like the bug where the tooltip for the popup for democratic elections never displays the custom empire title for the ruler despite it working everywhere else. It's been reported as a bug every patch for years but never gets fixed. Paradox reworks the game at a breakneck pace and doesn't seem interested in trying to polish it.
Post by: Radsoc on June 21, 2019, 02:29:34 am
Post by: Boltgun on June 21, 2019, 04:04:42 am
Well it's not just that it's listing three battles, the numbers are wrong and I don't think I've ever seen them actually come out correct. According to the battle report I destroyed over thirty ships but the war score screen only lists them as losing a combined 13.
I get the feeling that the battle report includes ships that disengaged before warping out or is calculating based on obsolete formulas while the war only pick actually destroyed ships. War fatigue is stupid anyway, you could be rolling over the entire territory but because the enemy can't even shake a stick in your direction you are not winning the war.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 21, 2019, 07:16:24 am
thinking_face.jpg
Post by: Telgin on June 21, 2019, 08:38:12 am
Well it's not just that it's listing three battles, the numbers are wrong and I don't think I've ever seen them actually come out correct. According to the battle report I destroyed over thirty ships but the war score screen only lists them as losing a combined 13.
Did you actually destroy the ships or did they disengage? Either way, like Boltgun says I wouldn't be surprised if the battle report screen uses a different or incorrect calculation compared to the war exhaustion screen.
Quote from: Boltgun
War fatigue is stupid anyway, you could be rolling over the entire territory but because the enemy can't even shake a stick in your direction you are not winning the war.
I like it in theory, but the execution is pretty mediocre in a lot of ways. It's extremely frustrating to end up in a war where the enemy has no fleet left so you can't blow up their stuff to give them more war exhaustion. In normal wars this isn't usually a problem because you can occupy their systems and planets to pressure them into surrender, but during total war it can be extremely annoying since systems flip to you immediately and they don't gain war exhaustion for that, nor do you technically occupy them since they just belong to you now.
The War in Heaven is the one that irritates me like this. Twice now I've had Wars in Heaven that I couldn't end because attrition is either outright suspended in the War in Heaven, or is so meaningless that the enemy somehow never accumulated any in ~50-100 years of war, and I blew up all of the enemy ships but only managed to get them to about 20% war exhaustion. I can take their systems and I can take their planets, but they don't care because they flip to me and thus don't accrue any war exhaustion or occupation. I'd literally have to conquer almost the entire galaxy to end the war, just by forcing the warring empires to cease to exist entirely. They might eventually build enough ships for me to finish pushing them up to the 25% + 50% from me having a better navy to force a status quo, but 100 years wasn't enough time the last time it happened.
Post by: Urist McManiac on June 21, 2019, 02:58:27 pm
The War in Heaven is the one that irritates me like this. Twice now I've had Wars in Heaven that I couldn't end because attrition is either outright suspended in the War in Heaven, or is so meaningless that the enemy somehow never accumulated any in ~50-100 years of war, and I blew up all of the enemy ships but only managed to get them to about 20% war exhaustion. I can take their systems and I can take their planets, but they don't care because they flip to me and thus don't accrue any war exhaustion or occupation. I'd literally have to conquer almost the entire galaxy to end the war, just by forcing the warring empires to cease to exist entirely. They might eventually build enough ships for me to finish pushing them up to the 25% + 50% from me having a better navy to force a status quo, but 100 years wasn't enough time the last time it happened.
Isn't that so by design? The War in Heaven is basically an all-out
Post by: Telgin on June 21, 2019, 03:47:34 pm
The biggest thing, I think, is that losing a system or planet in a total war (or maybe it's just the War in Heaven that works this way) should cause war exhaustion. Losing a planet is a lot more catastrophic than losing a few ships, after all.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 21, 2019, 05:39:21 pm
Hmmm, so in my current game, the Great Khan popped up, but instead of conquering anyone, he keeps sending his fleets through the L-Gate. Once he lost all his event-spawned ships to the re-spawning Grey Goo, he got some more event spawned ships, and now he's sending those through the L-Gate, too. Which keeps spawning more fleets, too.
thinking_face.jpg
Theory: It's because the shortest path to his target is through an L-Gate and out the next L-Gate. Sort of like how if you don't specifically tell them not to all your reinforcements will path tight through the system with a dimensional horror one by one.
Post by: E. Albright on June 21, 2019, 06:36:32 pm
Post by: Broseph Stalin on June 21, 2019, 11:10:09 pm
These are just units destroyed. I watched the battle, and read the fleet report, these units were scratched not disengaged. The war score screen is consistently incorrect about casualties. If it wasn't then the issue would be that combat reports listed units as being destroyed incorrectly.
I get the feeling that the battle report includes ships that disengaged before warping out or is calculating based on obsolete formulas while the war only pick actually destroyed ships. War fatigue is stupid anyway, you could be rolling over the entire territory but because the enemy can't even shake a stick in your direction you are not winning the war.
As part of a mod I found a world of colossal psionic primitives on an unappealing little world. Their psionic abilities reduced bombardment effectiveness by %1000 they were 40k strong and they had units so jammed full of health that it was almost impossible to grind them down. Obviously you're supposed to ignore them or maybe study them but humanity has it's pride and I committed 50k worth of gene soldiers backed by advanced slave armies. Problem is their tanky and hit really hard so my units are being slaughtered before they really deal damage. I dedicate every single world to cranking out army units and sending them to reinforce in a constant chain. The battle went on for years. I burned through 7 generals but I finally ground the bastards down, enslaved them, and gene modded them into cute little fox people.
Post by: Kanil on June 26, 2019, 11:02:13 pm
... cute little fox people.
The ends justify the means.
Microing all those armies was probably fun, wasn't it?
Post by: Ultimuh on June 27, 2019, 07:00:22 am
I've discovered an interesting bug about the Khan. Hive minded pops aren't auto-purged in their empire.Best way to report bugs, is via Paradox's main Stellaris forums.
Just saying.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on June 27, 2019, 07:09:16 am
You'd think it would be a pain in the ass but it was a joyful experience. It was a delight to feed wave after wave of troops into the engine of endless war and my aching wrist was a fair price.... cute little fox people.
The ends justify the means.
Microing all those armies was probably fun, wasn't it?
Post by: Telgin on June 27, 2019, 09:03:15 am
Anyway, I decided to try a small change of pace and set up a game where there was only a single AI empire, which was force spawned as a determined exterminator. No fallen empires, no marauders, no caravaneers. The idea was that I was going to build up peacefully, with minimal or no military, until I blundered into the exterminators. I was hoping that it would be interesting to have to suddenly build up a large navy using the infrastructure I'd built along the way, and I actually have no idea how hard it would be. The AI is on commodore difficulty, and I haven't run into them yet, so I have no idea what their navy looks like even though I'm sure I'm far ahead of them in tech.
I made a mistake though. I wanted to build ultra wide for a change and just cover the galaxy until I ran into the kill bots. I ended up running into the Prikkiki-Ti around 2280, and it's the first time I've personally found that anomaly. I decided to leave them alone because I didn't want their empire to spawn... which led to them spawning a decade or so later. Oops. Now I have this annoying little patch of space with an AI empire I didn't want to exist. I guess you're supposed to fix the shield if you don't want them to spawn?
Post by: Stench Guzman on October 15, 2019, 03:14:58 pm
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-galaxy-command-has-arrived.1258985/
Paradox outsourced its production to a Chinese firm called Gamebear. Within hours of the announcement, they were caught using stolen artwork from Halo.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-mobile-halo-artwork.1259029/
Post by: Sirus on October 15, 2019, 03:21:09 pm
Post by: A Thing on October 15, 2019, 05:12:30 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EG8hOJzX4Aw1cFc.jpg)
From the official twitter.
Post by: Mephansteras on October 15, 2019, 05:30:23 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on October 15, 2019, 06:07:38 pm
So y'kno, good for Paradox.
Post by: Telgin on October 15, 2019, 07:09:52 pm
I would say this is yet more evidence that they don't check anything they release, but this seems like something that would pretty easily slip through the cracks for a QA team.
Post by: Blood_Librarian on October 16, 2019, 12:40:19 am
It began on the world Slerrenica. A world of vast oceans, archipilagos and a species with a cleverness unmatched world wide.
Their first exploration out into the stars saw only the bones of civilization past. It took three years of explorative efforts before first contact was held with an alien species, a hivemind that was utterly unknowable.
After a hundred years of successive contacts, expansion and a needle-thin possibility of a Federation, the Directorate has a cascade: A incredibly bloodless revolution that resulted in a Syndicate of a freer, a more demagogic governmental structure that completely turned around on the cultural materialist values, and further gratifying the egalitarian values of the society.
They had the gift, and it burned to consciousness in the following weeks.
Synthetic WarForm X-193, the leader at the time of the revolution was thrown down, and all synthetics were promptly banned, all worker systems shut down. Nevermind the rumors of leader "War-Form" did not have a psychic presence, it is merely a condition that he suffers, that he does so he can trully lead and give the rest of his psychic peers wisdom.
The hivemind mentioned earlier was a constant looming blade over the old Directorate, and a massive fleet was assembled, maintained and expanded on every decade. It was used to clear out the Psychic Malstrom on the other end of a wormhole, and to smash the alien drake and to further peace in the Syndicate Space. Trade was the forefront of the fleet's resposibility, and massive starbases were built all over the burgeoning trade routes.
The Directorate that was thrown down had left them a "gift". They had forsaken their people in their lust for the stars. A hundred worlds was marched upon, and a thousand stars were claimed in the name of the Directorate, and while this almost lead to the coqnuering of the Directorate several times, the economic power of the Directorates forge worlds was undeniable.
The syndicate had to use them, at first to assemble the gateways that united the empire together, destroying the need for the expensive star bases and allowing more efficent trade ways.
And htan it was to assemble the guns and ships required to fend off a technologically superior force.
The Archivists, a small concentrated empire of fallen materialists, too bound, too focussed on their ancient research had once saw the Yaerian People as a pet project, a product of the Directorates intense research doctrines, but something stirred them awake.
No one really knows why the war in heaven started. No one knows why the two ancient, ancient empires, so frightfully damn close to the Syndicates borders had started, or why. (I sent a Psychic probe to an unrelated empire.)
The result was the same regardless. The Regulators marched relentlessly towards a decapitating blow for the Yaerian Syndicates homeworld. The fleets, Every single patrol vessel, fast-response ship, cruiser squadron as well as Titan Fleet was recalled to the Homeworld. The Na Ethor Etante, the non-aligned federation of the galaxies various (3) independents lended no less than a hundred and three derelects ancient vessals from another era for the defense of Slerrenica.
Using recently developed nanite swell fields, Every single ship was reconfigured into the Yaerian Standard, and these ships withered the first strike by the Regulators "Stellar Rectric" fleets. Fifty vessels were destroyed with casualties far below projections, as the fight was figured to have been roughly even in firepower.
Two fleets were assigned for pacification of the Slerrenica, and with being outgunned 3-1, the entire fleet, including Militia FLeet, led by no one else than War-Form, was slaughtered to the last.
There were resistances afterward. A fleet or two of half-reinforced fallen empires in a chance encounter, A surge to take bac th Homeworld, but the war machine ran out of supplies in under three years, the various stocks of an entire empire emptied out over a long, brutal war.
Slerrenica was burnt. After the first resurgence battle, a world cracker had been used on the world, along with several others, including Uldrugg, Cursa Prime, and TUggam.
The Syndicates territory was then cut up and split among the various despoilers of the war in heaven.
Some say a rather proud resistance movement is in the shadows. It is mostly dismissed.
The two links below are of two pictures, one, about 50~ before the War in heaven and the other right when I stopped playing because I couldn't go 10 years without going into what I thought was a no-win scenario.
https://i.imgur.com/dEuMw8k.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/h9QaFOH.jpg
Post by: ZeroGravitas on October 16, 2019, 05:33:03 pm
I'm glad they're being up front about it and fixing the problem, but man, Paradox just can't seem to get a Stellaris release right. I feel a little bad for them, but only a little.
I would say this is yet more evidence that they don't check anything they release, but this seems like something that would pretty easily slip through the cracks for a QA team.
their QA team never touched it. it's 100% made by a Chinese studio and it's apparently just a re-skin of the Chinese company's game, Nova Empire. in fact there were some error messages where they forgot to change the name "Nova Empire" to "Stellaris" - https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/diah5m/stellaris_galaxy_straight_up_tells_you_its_a/
I really don't know why anyone gives Paradox the benefit of the doubt anymore. they peaked with CK2 and EU4 and it's been downhill, at various speeds, since then.
Post by: Telgin on October 16, 2019, 06:59:04 pm
But, yeah, I saw the stuff where the error messages refer to it as Nova Empire, which is pretty funny. If Paradox themselves didn't touch the game at all, whoever did the development has a similarly sloppy development approach.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on October 16, 2019, 07:30:58 pm
That's just so careless.
You're so careless Paradox.
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 19, 2019, 02:44:16 pm
Why would you just not check.If you mean about the art, there is no easy way to just search all previous art for reused images.
That's just so careless.
You're so careless Paradox.
If you mean the error messages, well I'm not sure. I seriously doubt they expected the outsourced firm to just reuse code from another game. It does seem like they could have at least tested it out a bit before releasing it to beta
Post by: Dunamisdeos on October 19, 2019, 02:45:13 pm
It took someone playing it for two hours (tops) to catch it, though.
Post by: Cruxador on October 21, 2019, 04:58:47 am
I seriously doubt they expected the outsourced firm to just reuse code from another game.C H I N A
Post by: Telgin on October 21, 2019, 08:48:04 am
The new lithoids species pack is at least interesting in that it adds new mechanics for lithoids, such as eating minerals instead of food.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on October 21, 2019, 12:50:48 pm
Lithoids also sound neat, but I sort of expect the mechanics to be "robots but they use minerals instead of energy".
Post by: Cruxador on October 21, 2019, 01:38:27 pm
I mean internal politics sound nice, but... I mean how interesting can it really be without any kind of espionage? There has to be something. Glad that they are expanding on Federations regardless.I would be surprised if they get that much special content.
Lithoids also sound neat, but I sort of expect the mechanics to be "robots but they use minerals instead of energy".
Post by: Dunamisdeos on October 21, 2019, 01:46:13 pm
I mean internal politics sound nice, but... I mean how interesting can it really be without any kind of espionage? There has to be something. Glad that they are expanding on Federations regardless.I would be surprised if they get that much special content.
Lithoids also sound neat, but I sort of expect the mechanics to be "robots but they use minerals instead of energy".
They are probably going to copy paste robot mechanics and be like "but it uses minerals instead of energy".
As long as it's like, a subtext of the expansion it's whatever I guess. But minerals are theoretically exhaustible, maybe there'll be some kind of locust mechanic that slowly devalues planets? Maybe that'll be one of the parallels to driven assimilators or whatnot.
Post by: Telgin on October 21, 2019, 02:26:51 pm
Some are rightly calling for Paradox to go back and make other species sets more interesting too, but I'm not sure what they'd do for most, really.
Post by: E. Albright on October 21, 2019, 03:05:05 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on October 21, 2019, 03:37:23 pm
The flatness with which (everything) are defined really does limit how much they can vary species one from another.
pretty much the game
Post by: E. Albright on October 24, 2019, 03:06:08 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 24, 2019, 04:11:44 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on October 24, 2019, 04:13:48 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on October 24, 2019, 05:48:54 pm
Post by: Cruxador on October 25, 2019, 01:53:22 pm
Post by: MorleyDev on October 28, 2019, 01:37:32 pm
WE MUST SEIZE THE MEANS OF SUBDUCTION!
Post by: Dunamisdeos on October 28, 2019, 01:50:22 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on October 28, 2019, 03:19:52 pm
Wow it's fucking nothing as always.It's exactly as advertised, a species pack. You get new species portraits, ship graphics, and city art. The fact that they also included unique gameplay is extra above and beyond the previous species packs. Also as part of developing those extra mechanics they have exposed more fun stuff to modders (the ability to tie species traits to the species portrait type) so overall it's not bad. I'd probably still wait for a sale for it, but it's at least no worse than the previous species packs and on par with their other aesthetic-only dlc
Post by: Rolan7 on October 28, 2019, 06:49:56 pm
Hm, reminds me of when one of my friends did a RP run as the Flood. Or to be precise the "Gravemind"- oh jeez, he really has to roll necromancer in *everything* doesn't he?
(also reminds me of the abominable race in Master of Orion 3. I wish that game wasn't so mechanically bad, because it had some interesting subjects and dynamics)
The important thing is it's now possible to play as Communist Space Rocks.YEAH!!
WE MUST SEIZE THE MEANS OF SUBDUCTION!
Oh wait, misread that.
...!!Yeah!!
Post by: Telgin on October 31, 2019, 09:44:39 am
Looks pretty interesting, with a big CKII vibe for the federation laws.
It's funny that there's no spiritualist federation type despite there being psychic combat succession rules as an option, but I'm guessing there were no perks they could think of to apply that would be similar to research pacts for materialist federations. They could always give more unity bonuses but I think spiritualists already get so much unity it would be wasted. The game really needs some work fleshing out religions for there to be much to do there, I guess.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 31, 2019, 02:00:33 pm
Post by: Cruxador on October 31, 2019, 06:44:35 pm
I haven't looked in on Dev Diaries for awhile, but have they mentioned Envoys before? Sounds like they are adding EU4 diplomats into the game or something.Was that not the old name for the limit on how many diplomatic relationships you could have?
Post by: Hanzoku on November 01, 2019, 02:58:16 am
Also,
Quote from: Dev Diary
The Chosen will of course be very hard to beat.
Of course, lets make the psionic ascension even better, its not like it wasn't the go to option or anything because it gets all the nifty extra mechanics and generally better results then the other two options.
Post by: Telgin on November 01, 2019, 07:47:08 am
I haven't looked in on Dev Diaries for awhile, but have they mentioned Envoys before? Sounds like they are adding EU4 diplomats into the game or something.
It's something new in the coming patch / DLC, but it sounds like it's something you use to maintain federation cohesion, if that's at all like EU4 diplomats. I suspect they'll be used for nonfederation diplomacy too, but there's no details on it yet that I know of.
Post by: Cruxador on November 01, 2019, 12:50:46 pm
When they did add a limit?It was in one of the earlier big overhaul patches, they've since removed it. On reflecting more, they might have been called embassies actually?
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 01, 2019, 01:12:23 pm
Embassies were a thing very early on which were scrapped very quickly after release. As you said it was a limited thing. You'd establish an embassy with a race at a small cost and it would passively raise relationshipWhen they did add a limit?It was in one of the earlier big overhaul patches, they've since removed it. On reflecting more, they might have been called embassies actually?
Post by: MorleyDev on November 02, 2019, 11:51:03 am
Becoming perfect immortal machines is probably the strongest one mechanically, though the traits of genetic ascension are pretty powerful too.
But I'll take interesting over mechanically balanced any day :) A perfectly balanced single player game will become perfectly boring very quickly. The goal is what's the most fun. Is one of the reasons I hate that modern RPGs scale enemies levels to yours: a top level character should be a damn near physical god compared to 99% of the world! Otherwise why bother leveling up at all?
As for federations, A-Specs video on it makes it sound like they're taking inspiration from CK2 for some of the mechanics.
Also that they may be waiting for HoI4s Spy update/dlc to land and see how well it works before implementing something similar for Stellaris. Lots of cross-pollination amongst the paradox teams to figure out what mechanically works that they can add the flavour and styling and tweaks to for the different settings.
From what I've heard the mechanics for Dig Sits in Stellaris are the same as for sieges in Imperator. Though I think they work better for something passive in the background, like research, instead of something deliberate and direct like military action. That should be more in the players control. But this isn't the "Wtf went wrong with Imperator" thread xD
Post by: scourge728 on November 02, 2019, 07:13:44 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 04, 2019, 01:57:22 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 04, 2019, 03:05:38 pm
From what I've heard the mechanics for Dig Sits in Stellaris are the same as for sieges in Imperator. Though I think they work better for something passive in the background, like research, instead of something deliberate and direct like military action. That should be more in the players control. But this isn't the "Wtf went wrong with Imperator" thread xD
they're generally the same as sieges in EU4 as well. too bad there's no "breach walls" button for dig sites...
Post by: Damiac on November 04, 2019, 04:56:43 pm
So, unrelated to the mobile game hilarity, it looks like they announced the next DLC, which is currently light on details but focused on federations at least. With little more to go on, it's hard to tell if it includes much in the way of internal politics, and the consensus seems to be that there won't be any espionage or intelligence component added. That's a little disappointing, and I'm not expecting much as a result.Another goddamn DLC? How about they get the base game working first, jesus...
The new lithoids species pack is at least interesting in that it adds new mechanics for lithoids, such as eating minerals instead of food.
I will never, ever buy anything from paradox again. Fortunately, I can check back on stellaris every so often and play a completely different broken half baked 'game'.
I'm neonivek now...
Post by: Egan_BW on November 04, 2019, 05:06:53 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 04, 2019, 05:16:36 pm
Post by: Telgin on November 04, 2019, 06:52:05 pm
Another goddamn DLC? How about they get the base game working first, jesus...
I will never, ever buy anything from paradox again. Fortunately, I can check back on stellaris every so often and play a completely different broken half baked 'game'.
Yeah, I get the sentiment. It's particularly bad because the dev team and community managers are always silent on the issue whenever it's brought up.
Stellaris is the only Paradox game I play, and because of the predatory DLC practices I don't have any interest in playing any others. I've spent more on Stellaris than I wish I had, but I've also gotten a lot of enjoyment out of it despite the problems so I guess I can't complain too much.
Post by: Blastbeard on November 04, 2019, 08:51:51 pm
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/RemorsefulFlawedFoxterrier-size_restricted.gif)
We're gonna need a way for non-psionic empires to bullshit their way into winning that fight.
Post by: Rolan7 on November 04, 2019, 10:07:51 pm
I understand frustration with Stellaris's stability (early on), and its efficiency (particularly up untill quite recently). But this DLC isn't some fresh betrayal, it's a meaningless note which comes alongside a lot of improvement. Have you heard that Wiz got reassigned a few months ago? He wasn't the satan many caricature him as, but things have generally improved.
Re: Psychic combat, the obvious answer would be robot soldiers. Cybernetically enhanced soldiers might have an edge as well, but even "neutral" empires on the material/spiritual axis can reasonably field battle-bots if need be.
Spiritualists who haven't grokked their psionic potential yet... Maybe should be at a disadvantage, but bolstered by the presence of the temple-line of buildings in defensive combat.
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on November 05, 2019, 12:56:34 am
Post by: Paul on November 05, 2019, 01:02:34 am
Post by: Hanzoku on November 05, 2019, 02:24:36 am
Psionic Ascension is the most fun of the Ascension options but I've always thought of it as the weakest mechanically. No guarantees of the boosts you get and also getting random debuffs. Plus the chance of dooming the galaxy (sure, you can say no...but who would?).
Becoming perfect immortal machines is probably the strongest one mechanically, though the traits of genetic ascension are pretty powerful too.
That's the thing: If I wanted to be a perfectly immortal machine, I'd just start the game as a perfectly immortal machine and save myself some ascension perks for other things. There's no benefit to going from squishy organic to machine empire versus starting as a machine empire.
So for me, that means there are two paths: Psionic Ascension, which comes with a bunch of nifty things, and genetic ascension, which involves a lot of fiddly bits of trying to perfectly optimize workers, researchers and leaders, and long, long waits as you slowly convert large portions of your population to templates.
Post by: Paul on November 05, 2019, 02:38:05 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 05, 2019, 09:56:26 am
There's no benefit to going from squishy organic to machine empire versus starting as a machine empire.
Ascended synth empires have happiness and factions, which can be good and bad but a well managed empire benefits from both of those. Machine Intelligence empires do not have either.
Synth pops have a pretty decent built-in bonus to resource production, just because they're synths. This comes from the synthetics tech, which gives a 10% boost to robot output, and then the synthetic ascension perk which adds another 10%.
Synth empires can have organic pops of other species if they want, which MI cannot.
Synth empires have trade, which MI do not. Trade can bring in a massive amount of energy almost for free.
Edit: Oh also, ascended synth empires get quite a lot of 'free' robot assembly jobs. I believe it's more than the robot assembly drone jobs that MI get from their capital buildings but I would need to check to be certain.
Post by: Telgin on November 05, 2019, 04:49:19 pm
Or, if they ever introduce the ability to be religious about machines like the Adeptus Mechanicus, it'll probably be bundled in an unrelated DLC like many of the new megastructures are being tossed in. Or you have to use mods.
It could be worse though. At the very least, when playing in multiplayer it does unlock all DLC that the game host has.
Post by: Teneb on November 05, 2019, 07:36:24 pm
On the subject of DLC, I don't really care about the cosmetic DLCs or how expensive they are. And while Stellaris is getting to the point of costing too much for all of its DLC, I'm mostly worried that it'll end up like CK2 or something where you could literally spend hundreds of dollars just to unlock game features, some of which are half baked. Take traditions, for example, which probably should have been more complex and offered conflicting, exclusive choices, but which became another resource (unity) that unlocked tech tree 2.0. I was hoping during the big tradition rework of 2.2 that they'd change that, but it seems unlikely that's ever going to happen. Or, if it does, it'll probably be DLC on its own.I dunno, for all that Stellaris is half-baked a lot of mechanics have been moving over from DLCs to the base game. So it might be the fairest Paradox game around, DLC-wise.
Or, if they ever introduce the ability to be religious about machines like the Adeptus Mechanicus, it'll probably be bundled in an unrelated DLC like many of the new megastructures are being tossed in. Or you have to use mods.
It could be worse though. At the very least, when playing in multiplayer it does unlock all DLC that the game host has.
Too bad it's half-baked.
Post by: Cruxador on November 06, 2019, 02:44:37 am
Neonivek is fine, and cheap aesthetic DLC is fine. This isn't Utopia or something, there's no reason to buy it unless you want to play a rock, and its development didn't meaningfully detract from "fixing" the game.I mean, I agree with all of this. But I still find it to be pretty underwhelming.
I understand frustration with Stellaris's stability (early on), and its efficiency (particularly up untill quite recently). But this DLC isn't some fresh betrayal, it's a meaningless note which comes alongside a lot of improvement. Have you heard that Wiz got reassigned a few months ago? He wasn't the satan many caricature him as, but things have generally improved.
Quote
Spiritualists who haven't grokked their psionic potential yet... Maybe should be at a disadvantage, but bolstered by the presence of the temple-line of buildings in defensive combat.I kinda don't dig the notion that Paradox seems to have adopted entirely, that psionic ascension the natural goal of all spiritualists.
Post by: Hanzoku on November 06, 2019, 04:04:56 am
AKA 'Praise the Omnissiah!'
Post by: Rolan7 on November 06, 2019, 01:41:55 pm
I'm trying yet again to actually finish a game, which means playing tiny galaxy so I can even idle at a reasonable speed (not to mention that I like micromanaging as much as I can bear). I think I might have it this time, after twice spawning next to fanatical purifiers. This is my third attempt with the "Deneb Contingency"...
The concept is similar to that of Civilization, Alpha Centauri, or even Stellaris's Commonwealth of Man. Also Marathon. In the darkest days of the human race, a sleeper ship is sent into the void. A desperate bid for existence as warfare tears our planet apart. A contingency plan.
The ship wanders the galaxy for centuries at sub-FTL, with very little to do but think. Brain the size of a planet, and no distractions. Perhaps even surviving the previous cycle, always staying on the outskirts, salvaging bits and pieces, looking for a place to settle down.
Finally it finds Deneb, and a habitable moon around a gas giant. Due to hundreds of years in cryo-sleep (and sci-fi magic), the human survivors are perfectly suited to this alpine climate. Informed of the passage of time, they react with shock and uncertainty. It's not long before they realize that their ancient caretaker is their best hope of survival as the cycle starts anew.
The Contingency no longer obeys humanity, but it does listen. The survivors are kept informed, and their opinions and suggestions are run through countless analyses and simulations. Humanity is its overriding purpose, but also the soul of this greater collective being.
Anyway I found humanity again in this third attempt. In the first attempt Sol was one jump away, a tomb world infested with cockroaches! This time around they're across the galaxy and a non-empire, who apparently managed to revolt from one of my rivals. Obviously, I guaranteed their independence immediately. I suppose they managed to nearly recover from nuclear war, only be subjugated by xenos.
Some of my best friends are xenos, but that race in particular had best stay away from my humans. *Durandal intensifies*
Post by: scourge728 on November 06, 2019, 02:03:47 pm
Post by: MrRoboto75 on November 06, 2019, 03:10:33 pm
Oof, I wouldn't do that without modding though. It's not just difficult, the faction system will insist that your pops are utterly against what you're doing (IIRC).
My faction wants me to "uplift" primative civs but also only passively observe them. :/
At least getting four species was easy as syncretic means you start with two.
Speaking of which, that's had its own issues. Somehow the main species outnumber the servant species like 4 to 1.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 06, 2019, 03:28:48 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on November 06, 2019, 03:51:55 pm
Notably, I'm starting to hit the micromanagement hell phase of my current game. Doesn't help that I soooooorta made like a dozen habitats to serve as my science base. This wasn't necessarily a bad idea per se, it just interfaces strangely with the way normal planets are supposed to progress.
Despite this, I'm still getting a pretty good story out of it, so it's still a net win studded with complaints.
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 06, 2019, 04:53:30 pm
My faction wants me to "uplift" primative civs but also only passively observe them. :/Those are two different things. Uplifting happens to presentient animals and makes them intelligent, not done to primitive civs. Giving primitive civs new technology is called enlightening not uplifting.
Post by: Paul on November 07, 2019, 07:28:47 am
I started a game with 12 other empires. I have met six so far at year 2200, all six are megacorps. And they're all geared to be opponents. I'm fanatic xenophile, all six of them are fanatic xenophobe. I'm spiritualist, 4 of them are materialist.
I seem to recall playing games where it would put like one, maybe two competitor corps in the game and the rest be normal empires. But this is ridiculous - what's the point of being a megacorp if you have zero non-corporation empires to actually build trade with?
Post by: MorleyDev on November 07, 2019, 07:35:12 am
Post by: Rolan7 on November 07, 2019, 08:35:36 am
Post by: Hanzoku on November 07, 2019, 08:59:12 am
It does seem to be very, very rare though.
Post by: MorleyDev on November 07, 2019, 09:01:50 am
https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/8grwp0/are_you_supposed_to_spawn_surrounded_by/
Quote
1. Each empire is generated sequentiality, not all at once. When an empire is created, all future empires are slightly less likely to choose that empire's ethics. So while you can end up in a galaxy with all of the same ethics in theory, you are more likely to have a balanced galaxy. The weighting is not very significant - it is still possible to have lopsided distributions.
2. Note that the player is considered to be the first empire chosen for purpose of ethics selection.
3. One of the patches decreased the weight for Pacifist because games full of pacifists were static and boring.
4. Also, something something chance to switch in one of the premade empires from the menu.
5. If the Commonwealth of Man is spawned, an event automatically creates the United Nations of Earth as well (but not necessarily its two nearby habitable planets).
So over enough games you're going to see every possible combination, but the average game is going to be a more even distribution of ethics.
Post by: Paul on November 08, 2019, 12:36:42 am
Everyone else in the Galaxy is fanatic xenophobe just because I picked fanatic xenophile I guess. Think I'll start over. If I wanted gameplay like this I would play fanatic purifier lol.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on November 08, 2019, 12:49:48 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 08, 2019, 05:40:16 am
Post by: Telgin on November 08, 2019, 12:18:51 pm
This is more or less what I expected the Space UN to look like in Stellaris, and I think it's a good start. There were still a lot of questions left unanswered or with very vague answers, such as what happens if you violate the resolutions or leave the galactic community.
It will be nice to be able to bop other idiot empires over the head for having closed borders during a galactic crisis now, so that's nice. I'm also not holding my breath for a new crisis, but there was enough mention of things like banding the galaxy together or maintaining military readiness that it at least seems plausible that they're doing something more with crises.
I also agree with some of the comments that this feels more like something that should be part of each federation instead of a Space UN. That way there could be competing political bodies and so on.
Post by: Cruxador on November 08, 2019, 01:11:20 pm
This is more or less what I expected the Space UN to look like in Stellaris, and I think it's a good start. There were still a lot of questions left unanswered or with very vague answers, such as what happens if you violate the resolutions or leave the galactic community.I don't think it's that vague. They do nothing except provide triggers for resolutions. Examples of effects that resolutions triggering off these states provide include CB generation and economic sanctions.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 08, 2019, 01:22:04 pm
Post by: Cruxador on November 08, 2019, 02:28:29 pm
I want to be able to leave the senate and declare war on it.You can leave it, but it seems that the senate is completely separate from federation mechanics, so it never acts as a single political player. You'd have to fight the members one at a time.
Unless they make some kind of special exception.
Post by: E. Albright on November 08, 2019, 05:04:38 pm
Post by: Telgin on November 08, 2019, 05:23:46 pm
Sounds like something that could potentially add actual fun to the game, and that is diverse and open enough to both be initially encompassing and to be expanded meaningfully, which is where the faction system ended up so disappointing.This is more or less what I expected the Space UN to look like in Stellaris, and I think it's a good start. There were still a lot of questions left unanswered or with very vague answers, such as what happens if you violate the resolutions or leave the galactic community.I don't think it's that vague. They do nothing except provide triggers for resolutions. Examples of effects that resolutions triggering off these states provide include CB generation and economic sanctions.
Yeah, but I'm wondering what economic sanctions mean in this case, for example. I'm betting it will be something like a penalty to trade value or energy generation, but I'm not sure that makes sense considering that many if not most empires don't actually have trade with other empires in the first place. Maybe that's changing in this patch, but I'd be surprised.
Post by: Rolan7 on November 08, 2019, 05:25:37 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 08, 2019, 05:43:34 pm
Post by: Telgin on November 09, 2019, 09:57:19 pm
Post by: Cruxador on November 09, 2019, 11:00:59 pm
I'm almost 100% sure that sanctions while you're in the group will just be a penalty as you describe, or something like forced demilitarization (penalty to fleet size) of varying magnitudes, which you'd have to leave the union to avoid. As for the consequences of leaving, maybe there's something like limited use of the galactic market or even banishment from it (since the galactic market will now be formed by resolution) or prohibition on trading with members for a period of time, but I'm willing to bet that the CB thing will be the meat of it.Sounds like something that could potentially add actual fun to the game, and that is diverse and open enough to both be initially encompassing and to be expanded meaningfully, which is where the faction system ended up so disappointing.This is more or less what I expected the Space UN to look like in Stellaris, and I think it's a good start. There were still a lot of questions left unanswered or with very vague answers, such as what happens if you violate the resolutions or leave the galactic community.I don't think it's that vague. They do nothing except provide triggers for resolutions. Examples of effects that resolutions triggering off these states provide include CB generation and economic sanctions.
Yeah, but I'm wondering what economic sanctions mean in this case, for example. I'm betting it will be something like a penalty to trade value or energy generation, but I'm not sure that makes sense considering that many if not most empires don't actually have trade with other empires in the first place. Maybe that's changing in this patch, but I'd be surprised.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on November 09, 2019, 11:17:20 pm
Post by: Paul on November 10, 2019, 10:12:16 am
It doesn't even provide any kind of special challenge, since these anti-empires are just crappy. Fanatic xenophobe corporation just isn't a strong empire.
Guess if I want a fun game I'll have to engineer the whole thing with force spawned empires. Add a few competing corporations to give me rival corps to fight and a bunch of random empires to fill in the rest. Lame though, since I wanted to stumble upon truly random aliens and not know what I would find as I explored. But finding premade empires that kind of make sense is better than finding the entire galaxy is just a bunch of opposites of me.
Post by: Iceblaster on November 10, 2019, 06:38:43 pm
These days I just have a shitton of premade empires of varying flavors and/or just play the star trek mod :P
Post by: Cruxador on November 11, 2019, 11:28:06 am
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 11, 2019, 01:42:16 pm
Which I hate.
Post by: E. Albright on November 11, 2019, 01:52:08 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 12, 2019, 01:12:35 am
It absolutely does weight opposing ethics.It gets especially annoying when you play a xenophile empire and literally no one wants to be your friend because everyone is an isolationist or purger
Which I hate.
Post by: E. Albright on November 12, 2019, 12:30:54 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 12, 2019, 12:32:46 pm
Post by: Telgin on November 12, 2019, 01:29:58 pm
I assume that the pops are supposed to remain spiritualists and generate problems from being so unhappy, but if that's working then it didn't manifest in any tangible way.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 12, 2019, 03:38:01 pm
Anytime I play Xenophile, or really, anything that isn't a warmongering purge/conquering type, I get nothing but xenophiles or materialistic/spiritualist opposition. Almost across the entire galaxy.
Only way to make any friends is to carve out chunks of neighboring empires and install friends oneself. Defeats the purpose of that playstyle entirely.
Post by: scourge728 on November 12, 2019, 05:36:33 pm
Post by: MrRoboto75 on November 12, 2019, 06:13:35 pm
I played a Xenophile and just kind of was warmonger instead
Love xenos because they are so much fun to punch
Post by: Rolan7 on November 12, 2019, 06:30:29 pm
*Sweating Blorg*
I played a Xenophile and just kind of was warmonger insteadYeah there's no contradiction there at all! Blorg are a perfect example of that :P
Xenophiles value species diversity. Warfare is a very efficient way of acquiring more species diversity.
It could still be considered a "nice" trait since they feel a need to give those other species rights. A lot like egalitarian. Pacifist *sounds* nice, but it's mostly about anti-expansionism. Hence their Isolationist/Prosperity factions. Which, to be fair, call for extended peace or defensive-war policy.
I like how the ethics interact and don't ever feel redundant. Though the almost-total ethics disconnect between space warfare and treatment of xenos is maybe a little strange. At least it's not the understated atrocity of older 4X like the original Master of Orion or old (os/2) Galciv, where all planetary combat was complete, utter, instantly-resolved total war and population purging. System limitations of course. It's still uncomfortable, in retrospect, how easily I accepted and rationalized such mechanics when I was new to 4X.
Edit: And now I'm thinking about what ethics are "good" or "evil", or which I even agree with the most. Egalitarian is probably the easiest case. Xenophile is up there, especially for me at least. Most people probably agree with those.
Spiritualist/Materialist is interesting because it's not just a religion thing, or doesn't have to be. Aaaand then I wrote a bunch of increasingly off-topic theology stuff over here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=147792.msg8054388#msg8054388).
Post by: Sirus on November 12, 2019, 07:22:21 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on November 12, 2019, 08:49:45 pm
But then, the way stellaris works xenophobes are perfectly happy with seeing filthy aliens in their daily lives, so long as they're subjugated. Doesn't this have hella overlap with authoritarianism / egalitarianism?
If I'm really super thrilled about aliens and want to be near them by any means, ethics and morality be damned, am I a xenophobe? Fanatic xenophile authoritarian? Militarist?
(Never actually played this game btw lmao)
Post by: Telgin on November 12, 2019, 09:02:25 pm
It's hard to pin any specific ethos as evil in Stellaris terms, but xenophobia, authoritarianism and militarism are usually going to lean in that direction. I've played benevolent kings that ran xenophobic empires that wanted to just be left alone, and I wouldn't call them evil, so clearly those ethics aren't evil in and of themselves, but it is at least the part of the diagram where the empires that enslave and eat sapient aliens reside.
Post by: Rolan7 on November 12, 2019, 09:12:23 pm
(Never actually played this game btw lmao)Yeah that's alright, you seem to understand the ethic dynamics just fine XD!
I will argue in defense of xenophiles giving equal rights to other species...
Well first off, you're right. As I established, Xenophiles just want other species living with you on your planets.
But I will argue that any such society would necessarily give equal rights to such xenos! Here I go:
What entity is worthy of rights? One like us? That's far too arbitrary.
If our morality is to have any lasting meaning, it must include those who are different than us. Anything else is clannish warfare, smoke in a pan.
The lasting morality is to enfold all thinking beings into one concordance of sentience. To live, both individually and communally, and hopefully discover (through meme or individual) some true solution to the coldness of the galaxy.
Xenophiles are explicitly okay with having sapient aliens in zoos / as pets, if the fallen empires are any indicator, so by itself that means xenophilia isn't equal rights to aliens. That would be a combination of xenophilia and egalitarianism.Fallen Empires are an edge case, but even so - they have valued the input of those sapients for countless years. Preserving them through The Cycle.
It's hard to pin any specific ethos as evil in Stellaris terms, but xenophobia, authoritarianism and militarism are usually going to lean in that direction. I've played benevolent kings that ran xenophobic empires that wanted to just be left alone, and I wouldn't call them evil, so clearly those ethics aren't evil in and of themselves, but it is at least the part of the diagram where the empires that enslave and eat sapient aliens reside.
Other than that, in-game Xenophiles cannot purge/displace xenos.
(I was going to say that they can't enslave xenos, which is technically true, but it's not actually possible unless enabled by certain ethics. Not default.)
Edit: ethics, not civics, enable slavery. Mistyped
Post by: Egan_BW on November 12, 2019, 09:22:20 pm
I suppose you could have xenophile-authoritarian-militarists, who want to raid alien empires to capture exotic slaves to work in the aristocrats mansions. They just wouldn't feel particularly queasy about poor people of their own species being enslaved by other xenophile-authoritarian empires, because what are you a xenophobe it's just poor people what do we care if they go away to live on the tentacle demon farm.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on November 12, 2019, 11:15:01 pm
What of the xenophile-authoritarian?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 13, 2019, 07:10:03 am
Post by: amjh on November 13, 2019, 12:01:02 pm
Those aliens are oppressing each other! Time to liberate a few planets!
Post by: Paul on November 13, 2019, 11:56:46 pm
Post by: E. Albright on November 14, 2019, 12:29:52 pm
Most of those seem pretty generic, but a few seem interesting.
Post by: Cruxador on November 14, 2019, 01:26:04 pm
Post by: Telgin on November 14, 2019, 03:18:07 pm
The ideas are pretty cool though, and I'm at least glad that life-seeded no longer eats up a civic slot.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 14, 2019, 08:19:08 pm
Post by: Cruxador on November 14, 2019, 09:18:11 pm
Post by: Sirus on November 14, 2019, 09:27:53 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
You can see that the Alpha Centauri and Bernard's Star colonies both have different flags, implying that they are sovereign nations. I think the concept is that your species has already gotten a foothold in the galaxy, possibly through generation ships before the invention of the hyperdrive, and that your colonies are now independent but friendly to the home system.
Post by: Kanil on November 14, 2019, 11:46:45 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on November 15, 2019, 04:06:04 am
That does make me wonder how starbase distance penalties are going to work with fed members starting so close. Paying extra to leapfrog over each other sounds like it'd get real old real quick.
Post by: scourge728 on November 15, 2019, 09:15:25 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 15, 2019, 09:19:51 am
Real Question: Why would I want to do this start?Roleplaying, perhaps. You do get a tradition unlock and a federation from the start as well as 2 established vassals paying you taxes, which is nice.
Post by: E. Albright on November 15, 2019, 12:21:39 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on November 15, 2019, 12:50:21 pm
Personally I'm embarassingly excited for Void Dwellers. There's very little information on it, I have just always loved the concept and tend to beeline habitats. I wonder if the species will have very poor planetary habitability, or if it's mostly balanced by the sheer cost of constructing habitats. Someone suggested it might be like life-seeded habitability which seems likely. I wonder if they'll get special hydroponic districts rather than the somewhat lacking hydroponics buildings, or if that'll be an interesting part of the challenge~
(Acquiring robots or other species will surely allow relatively normal planet exploitation in the early midgame, but I still love the idea)
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 15, 2019, 06:53:35 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on November 15, 2019, 08:38:04 pm
Also Orks of kourse, except Orks... aren't... wait, are WH40K Orks lithovores?? That would actually make a lot of sense with their weird life-cycle, even if it's only for their initial stages.
I was looking for clarification of what the meteorite colony ship's "dramatic fashion" was, but I think they're being coy about that. Someone pointed out that the promise of a Massive Crater on your homeworld hints that "colonized" worlds might gain similar terrain, which presumably increases mineral districts. Which kinda makes me want to *meet* such a race, and take their blasted worlds~ No idea whether they'll be inhabitable for me, but that's what
This succinct dev reply was of great interest to me:
Quote from: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-160-origins-full-reveal.1279766/page-19#post-26018642
QuoteAny details on how the Ring World, Habitat and Relic world starts are going to deal with the lack of mineral districts or food districts, respectively?
Shattered Ring: One of the sections is permanently shattered. The celestial object responsible and the ring segment itself can be mined. (Note: Lithoids still have a really tough start here, since they'll eat most of the minerals, and they can't acquire minerals from their home section.)
Void Dwellers: One of the habitats you start with is a mining habitat. Hydroponics for food.
Remnants: Your homeworld has decayed enough that all four basic district types are represented.
Whereas this (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-160-origins-full-reveal.1279766/page-18#post-26018560) longer dev reply adds clarification to several of the origins.
Quote
We joked about "Accept Your Fate", where you just waited 64 years but while amusing didn't sound like a lot of fun.hehehe
Post by: SOLDIER First on November 15, 2019, 09:05:35 pm
Post by: Ultimuh on November 15, 2019, 09:40:03 pm
So is Calamitous Birth basically proliferation-via-Lavos (https://chrono.fandom.com/wiki/Lavos), or what? Because that sounds awesome as hell.That's my thought as well.
I wonder what sort of Lavos-y empire I can possibly build with the game's limitations.
Hive mind, perhaps?
Post by: Sartain on November 16, 2019, 05:56:39 am
Real Question: Why would I want to do this start?... as well as 2 established vassals paying you taxes, which is nice.
This is only nice assuming vassals have stopped being completely useless, otherwise you just end up with two 1-system neighbours that can't do shit because they don't get any AI bonuses because they are your vassals and are thus completely unable to handle the early-game buildup or pretty much anything else
Post by: Blastbeard on November 16, 2019, 08:07:19 am
"I may have been banging rocks together in a cave last week, but I'm taking this system's outpost with my three corvettes if it's the last thing I ev--"
*Fleet lost*
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 16, 2019, 09:35:34 am
Post by: Blastbeard on November 16, 2019, 05:19:31 pm
I've got high hopes for the new origin mechanic. The 'lost colony' origin sounds like the UNE/commonwealth, so I'm hoping we'll be able to customize and play as the extra nations.
Post by: scourge728 on November 16, 2019, 08:33:16 pm
Post by: E. Albright on November 16, 2019, 08:53:31 pm
Post by: SOLDIER First on November 18, 2019, 12:22:27 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 18, 2019, 12:51:23 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 19, 2019, 02:51:34 pm
Which is kinda sad as it used to give you passive automatic (but very slow) ship repairs
I really liked this.
It would be nice to get that back as an edict. Do we have that as an edict? I use it for megastructures.
Post by: Sartain on November 19, 2019, 06:42:25 pm
In my experience smaller vassals have done more for me than entire federations. Which is to say they actually participate in the wars I get called into by the only two jerkoffs in the galaxy that share my ethics. They don't always accomplish anything but by god do they try.
"I may have been banging rocks together in a cave last week, but I'm taking this system's outpost with my three corvettes if it's the last thing I ev--"
*Fleet lost*
I guess, but unless they've upped the capability of the AI 1-system vassals will happily sit around for a 100 years tanking their own economy and not even expanding to available, neighboring systems. Which I suppose explains why they only have 3 corvettes...
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 19, 2019, 06:48:40 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 19, 2019, 07:08:19 pm
So yeah, it should be possible, if very, very time-consuming.
Post by: SOLDIER First on November 20, 2019, 02:06:28 am
I guess, but unless they've upped the capability of the AI 1-system vassals will happily sit around for a 100 years tanking their own economy and not even expanding to available, neighboring systems. Which I suppose explains why they only have 3 corvettes...
Vassals, protectorates, and the unique names Awakened Empires use (but pointedly not tributaries) are actually mechanically incapable of spreading to new systems without their overlord having the Feudal Society civic.
Post by: amjh on November 20, 2019, 02:23:01 am
Post by: Paul on November 20, 2019, 05:15:10 am
Made a migration treaty with another empire solely so I could use their pops to populate my dry worlds since they're desert. What I didn't realize is they happen to have pops of a different species which are adaptable. Cue my ENTIRE EMPIRE growing nothing but that species, even on worlds where my species is 80 hab and they are 30. I didn't notice this until my economy was tanking due to all the 30 hab pops on my main worlds. Literally every single world is growing nothing but them and they are already over 1/3 of my empire after a few short years. Moved them all to worlds they actually have good habitability on and turned migration controls on. Still my entire empire insists on growing them. Had to cancel the migration treaty with my neighbor to stop them.
The entire time, not a single pop of their main species migrated over. So I still don't have desert pops. Sadly I didn't wait to colonize the world's so I can't do it that way. So now I have one world with 80 pops and the rest of my empire has stagnated, and I didn't even get the desert loving pops that I wanted.
In short, migration treaty results in my entire species becoming sterile and being replaced by useless adaptable species that I only have one world they can even live on at high habitability.
Post by: SOLDIER First on November 20, 2019, 11:21:27 am
Post by: Sartain on November 20, 2019, 12:30:41 pm
I guess, but unless they've upped the capability of the AI 1-system vassals will happily sit around for a 100 years tanking their own economy and not even expanding to available, neighboring systems. Which I suppose explains why they only have 3 corvettes...
Vassals, protectorates, and the unique names Awakened Empires use (but pointedly not tributaries) are actually mechanically incapable of spreading to new systems without their overlord having the Feudal Society civic.
Oh right, this was with the Feudal civic as I've tried multiple times to see if it's actually any good. It's really not
If there's a system you think would be really good on your vassal, you could take it yourself and gift it.Which is unfortunately pretty much the only way to get vassals to do any sort of expanding, and even then they have a tendency so suck so hard at building up their economy that even if you gift them thousands of minerals and energy they won't even manage to develop the potential stations in their territory.
Post by: SOLDIER First on November 20, 2019, 01:49:39 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on November 20, 2019, 03:52:06 pm
Sigh. Every time I get back into this game the same stupid crap makes me want to uninstall it. I see migration is still horrifically stupidly broken.Unfortunately, Stellaris has never really known what it's doing with pops or how they're distinct from your other infrastructure. Part of the problem is waffling in this weird middle ground between controlled and autonomous, where you can't just click buttons to tell them what to do but they're also not smart enough to be effective- or more importantly, interesting- on their own. I think that's largely symptomatic of not being willing to take either extreme, though: They absolutely want pops to Exist and Do Stuff, but they're not willing to take the plunge and model birth rates or employment decisions, so... even out the population over time and call it a day, I guess.
Made a migration treaty with another empire solely so I could use their pops to populate my dry worlds since they're desert. What I didn't realize is they happen to have pops of a different species which are adaptable. Cue my ENTIRE EMPIRE growing nothing but that species, even on worlds where my species is 80 hab and they are 30. I didn't notice this until my economy was tanking due to all the 30 hab pops on my main worlds. Literally every single world is growing nothing but them and they are already over 1/3 of my empire after a few short years. Moved them all to worlds they actually have good habitability on and turned migration controls on. Still my entire empire insists on growing them. Had to cancel the migration treaty with my neighbor to stop them.
The entire time, not a single pop of their main species migrated over. So I still don't have desert pops. Sadly I didn't wait to colonize the world's so I can't do it that way. So now I have one world with 80 pops and the rest of my empire has stagnated, and I didn't even get the desert loving pops that I wanted.
In short, migration treaty results in my entire species becoming sterile and being replaced by useless adaptable species that I only have one world they can even live on at high habitability.
Post by: Sartain on November 20, 2019, 04:33:57 pm
Sigh. Every time I get back into this game the same stupid crap makes me want to uninstall it. I see migration is still horrifically stupidly broken.Unfortunately, Stellaris has never really known what it's doing with pops or how they're distinct from your other infrastructure. Part of the problem is waffling in this weird middle ground between controlled and autonomous, where you can't just click buttons to tell them what to do but they're also not smart enough to be effective- or more importantly, interesting- on their own. I think that's largely symptomatic of not being willing to take either extreme, though: They absolutely want pops to Exist and Do Stuff, but they're not willing to take the plunge and model birth rates or employment decisions, so... even out the population over time and call it a day, I guess.
Made a migration treaty with another empire solely so I could use their pops to populate my dry worlds since they're desert. What I didn't realize is they happen to have pops of a different species which are adaptable. Cue my ENTIRE EMPIRE growing nothing but that species, even on worlds where my species is 80 hab and they are 30. I didn't notice this until my economy was tanking due to all the 30 hab pops on my main worlds. Literally every single world is growing nothing but them and they are already over 1/3 of my empire after a few short years. Moved them all to worlds they actually have good habitability on and turned migration controls on. Still my entire empire insists on growing them. Had to cancel the migration treaty with my neighbor to stop them.
The entire time, not a single pop of their main species migrated over. So I still don't have desert pops. Sadly I didn't wait to colonize the world's so I can't do it that way. So now I have one world with 80 pops and the rest of my empire has stagnated, and I didn't even get the desert loving pops that I wanted.
In short, migration treaty results in my entire species becoming sterile and being replaced by useless adaptable species that I only have one world they can even live on at high habitability.
I feel like this is symptomatic for a lot of the design choices made with Stellaris. It started out somewhat daring and has become more and more waffling, boring-compromise design as the DLC/update cycles have been going on. It's a damn shame too because there's a lot of things that could be very, very awesome in the game but instead just end up as mildly interesting but bland instead. Maybe the next DLC/update will make it better but I'm not getting my hopes up, I think I'll just have to settle for Stellaris never becoming as bold as I hoped it would
Post by: E. Albright on November 20, 2019, 05:23:53 pm
Post by: Teneb on November 20, 2019, 05:33:28 pm
Post by: Paul on November 21, 2019, 12:03:52 pm
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on November 21, 2019, 03:13:57 pm
Has there ever been a situation where a human took control of a one system vassal and tried to develop them? I'm wondering if its even possible...
Multiplayer allows people to come in as any empire, including vassalized ones, so yes, it is fully possible.
Post by: Sartain on November 22, 2019, 11:40:29 am
And yet I still keep coming back to playing it lol. It's one of those games that catches my attention despite its terrible flaws. At least most of the issues can be worked around.
Oh yeah, same here. I also buy all DLCs on release because I still dare to hope, and I am entertained by them for sure but it doesn't take many hours of play before I become disappointed at how it totally doesn't live up to the potential I imagine it has
Post by: E. Albright on November 22, 2019, 03:23:29 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 22, 2019, 03:57:46 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 22, 2019, 03:59:16 pm
So is playing as a slaver empire just volunteering yourself for micromanagement hell? I tried it for the first time properly and it seems like it just makes everything about population/job management significantly worse than normal.I do two things to reduce micromanagement in my current slaver game.
1. I turn some slave species into domestic servitude. This lessens their unhappiness and any 'unemployed' pops become servants which gives me free amenities.
2. I use a mod which moves unemployed pops to other planets with jobs. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1617534169
Post by: Telgin on November 22, 2019, 04:21:39 pm
Post by: Shooer on November 22, 2019, 04:28:18 pm
Post by: Paul on November 22, 2019, 05:20:35 pm
I don't really understand the gameplay reasons behind the years of unemployment to demote pops. It kind of makes logical sense for there to be a penalty for pops being demoted, but it just doesn't make for fun gameplay.
I tried that Stellaris Eternal mod, which has less micro due to fewer buildings and pops and instant migration, but it's still in alpha state and super unbalanced. If it eventually gets fixed up to the point of being a balanced experience it might be a fun alternative to vanilla Stellaris. Right now trade in general and megacorps are ridiculously overpowered in it heh.
Post by: Iceblaster on November 22, 2019, 07:35:56 pm
Anyways eh! Wonder how the star trek mod's gonna work with the new update.
Post by: ventuswings on November 22, 2019, 09:58:56 pm
Post by: Paul on November 26, 2019, 06:42:14 pm
But there is kind of a funny exploit when it comes to playing a lithoid and capturing regular pops (or having them migrate) - you can nerve staple them and then just keep them on as a lower class citizen and never actually feed any of them. The only penalty for no food is happiness and slower growth, but if you're just capturing the pops (with raiding or conquest) and nerve stapling them it doesn't really matter. You can gene mod species to be perfect for clerk jobs or extraction jobs and just scatter them through your planets to have completely free (if slaves) or nearly free (if residence subsistence) workers. You can even do it as a xenophile empire.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on November 26, 2019, 09:51:57 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 27, 2019, 06:43:31 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 27, 2019, 08:31:52 am
We ArE aLL HaPPy HeRe.HhhaVE yOu taKEN yoourrr Joy?
Post by: Telgin on January 30, 2020, 12:16:27 pm
This honestly looks like the most interesting part of the new DLC. One concern I have is that in single player this is probably going to lead to a lot of alienation of the player empire, due to the opposing ethics generated by AI empires. In my last game, something like 90% of the galaxy were spiritualists or even evangelizing zealots since I was a materialist. I was playing inward perfectionists so I probably wouldn't have joined the galactic community anyway, but joining it would have probably been frustrating if it existed and I tried to join.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 30, 2020, 01:30:10 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 30, 2020, 01:40:28 pm
Post by: Telgin on January 30, 2020, 01:48:44 pm
I get around opposing ethics by having a wide selection of my own custom factions forced into the game, that way I can get a more random shotgun blast of ethics
This is a good idea, and something I'll consider next time.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 30, 2020, 03:58:55 pm
Particularly this odd race of Egalitarian Xenophobes++. I'm honestly a bit confused at how effective they seem to be in AI hands. They were supposed to be a test of "egalitarian slavers" who live in Utopian Abundance while lesser races do all the work. Yet for some reason I gave them Mining Guilds and... Byzantine Bureaucracy? Solid picks, but why not Syncretic?
I think the race picks explain their success: Rapid Breeders, Communal, and Traditional with Nonadaptive. Combined with Xenophobe birth rate and outpost cost, it kinda makes sense. Still kinda odd. I wonder if they're even slaving- *checks*
gdsdmit
I finally learned not to sign migration treaties with Authoritarians, and I forgot the obvious dang corollary.
Why do so many pops migrate into slavery, what is wrong with them!?? It's not kinky anymore it's just weird! I meet all their needs and run that +Immigration Draw edict, heck some of these species left Utopian Abundance to go work for slaving butterflies. GAAH!
I kinda love the sheer awkwardness whenever I notice this happening, it's so bizarre. Agh... the perils of naive Xenophilia. At least this pretends to explain why they agreed to federate with us, laughing the whole time.
Like, I can't even be mad, this is really on us. And it *keeps happening* XD
oh also that Q&A is super intriguing. Perhaps a Galactic ban on slavery is just what my citizens and I need to save us from our derpiness. I expect it to be rebalanced a few times after launch, because it seems like a very ambitious new system, but I'm very interested!
Also the edict to make people move to the places where jobs are seems
like it should already be a thing
better late than never
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 30, 2020, 04:11:27 pm
Post by: Cruxador on January 30, 2020, 04:47:08 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 30, 2020, 08:44:15 pm
...or since we're talking about catering to slavers, I'm more likely to set up a fleet around a black hole, where I charge ships to fly into, and provide a shiny red button that is guaranteed to bring them back. Nobody has complained that it doesn't work, thus it must work, right? ;D
I have a little respect for those pops: While I wouldn't want to get enslaved by aliens, I think if I did that I'd chose the butterflies over everyone else. Sure, they might hurt people that don't work hard enough, not pay them for their work, and generally be complete assholes, but they're too cute to hold it against them.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 31, 2020, 04:27:01 am
I have a little respect for those pops: While I wouldn't want to get enslaved by aliens, I think if I did that I'd chose the butterflies over everyone else. Sure, they might hurt people that don't work hard enough, not pay them for their work, and generally be complete assholes, but they're too cute to hold it against them.
But they're fanatic xenophobes, so you probably won't get to sleep with one. :(
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 31, 2020, 07:23:11 am
And I'll found Black Hole Markets: A place where discerning civilizations can set up their colonies free from Galactic surveillance, most likely by connecting a wormhole to someplace that is not actually in the galaxy.I've rarely ever had so much fun as when I played as THE VOID civilisation.
...or since we're talking about catering to slavers, I'm more likely to set up a fleet around a black hole, where I charge ships to fly into, and provide a shiny red button that is guaranteed to bring them back. Nobody has complained that it doesn't work, thus it must work, right? ;D
I have a little respect for those pops: While I wouldn't want to get enslaved by aliens, I think if I did that I'd chose the butterflies over everyone else. Sure, they might hurt people that don't work hard enough, not pay them for their work, and generally be complete assholes, but they're too cute to hold it against them.
I started off with the pre-FTL mod and a whole bunch of other civilisations, in addition to a mod which allowed you to build/sever hyperlane links and my own mod which just disabled communications spread (meaning, to communicate with someone, you had to border them, and things like the great khan awakening or a crisis did not automatically contact you).
My civilisation were purifiers but there was no one else in the galaxy we could notice, or cared to notice, as we were not keen on exploring & making contact with alien civilisations (indeed the two we did encounter were glassed). We began colonising one nebula which was connected by a wormhole to another one, very quickly severing the hyperlanes with the rest of the galaxy. The other civs were starting to discover FTL and send out explorers, we had little time to remain uncontacted.
We transfer all of our population into the nebula, leaving behind an alien species on our homeworld capital, which we promptly exterminated. This left our capital as a ghost world full of advanced alien infrastructure, and many skeletons of an advanced alien species. For any intrepid archaeologists however, these alien species would be a red herring, as the real creators had already departed.
Hyperlanes, dyson spheres, research stations and fortresses were constructed everywhere throughout our systems. For centuries we amassed our armada in blissful solitude, unaware and uncaring of the changing galaxy around us. No one could warp in, but we could warp out - and we watched with amusement as alien civilisations inherited our old worlds, keeping our infrastructure intact.
The Great Khanates rose and fell thrice, and the purifiers did not care to intervene. The prethoryn scoured the fringe worlds awakening the fallen empires and still, the purifiers did not deign to intervene. A war in heaven broke out as the galaxy was split in two, and the purifiers continued with their peaceful ways. At last the galaxy was divided between a devouring swarm, a gargantuan federation and a few independent warlords, and despite all of their developments, ascensions and singularities - for four hundred years there was a gap in the middle of the map.
Theoretically it should be possible to access this nebula, but no one could scan it. No one could travel into it. Ships gave it a wide berth because it was the ghost nebula, and no one had successfully found a way to navigate it and survive.
Astronomers watched with curiosity at this negative space of the cosmos, wondering at its opacity.
Then the armada arrived, and the cycle continued anew. Whole worlds were scoured and brought to ruin, and in the blink of an eye a galaxy was rendered lifeless. On each barren, lifeless world a sapient species was seeded. In time the cycle would continue again!
Post by: Il Palazzo on January 31, 2020, 10:18:14 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 31, 2020, 12:25:43 pm
The AI doesn't use the build/sever lane feature?It doesn't know how to, but in this case even multiplayer wouldn't work. You can only build/sever lanes in two systems you control, but if you sever all lanes going into a nebula, then all 3rd party star empires will never be able to explore the nebula. Assuming no communication spread, they will not even be able to jump into the star system as the nebula will forever be unexplored for them
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 31, 2020, 12:36:29 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 31, 2020, 09:32:42 pm
Post by: Telgin on February 02, 2020, 04:20:48 pm
On that note, I think the scourge is easily the weakest crisis right now. It takes them decades to infest planets because of this, and so the scourge doesn't grow in power unless you're very slow to respond. I sat in my borders for over a decade hoping to see the crisis grow some in power, but got bored and just went to go stomp them.
Post by: Kanil on February 03, 2020, 03:08:50 am
Post by: Telgin on February 03, 2020, 09:44:39 am
What seems to be broken is that the AI is definitely able to resettle pops onto a planet they don't control and which is experiencing extermination purging. I don't know if players can do this, but I watched with great frustration as the planet's population went from 2 to 7 over the course of a year or so because I took back several of the empire's other planets such that its overall pop growth exceeded the purge rate again. I'm reasonably sure that shouldn't be possible.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on February 03, 2020, 09:47:19 am
Is it just me, or is there something wrong with purging? I got the Prethoryn scourge in my current game, and they conquered a planet with 60 pops. 20 years later and they still haven't finished purging it. I've seen the population increase multiple times, which I am assuming is the empire resettling pops to the doomed planet.
getting purged is literally a job, that all the "getting purged pops" work. this also means that things that affect "job output" or specific resource output also affect purge output like stability
however, the only pop that actually gets removed is the pop in the "declining" pop slot.
it's actually extremely overpowered and a very good idea to move all the pops you're trying to purge to a single "dinner planet" (or whatever you methodology for purging is)
for example:
(https://i.imgur.com/RLWpvC5.png)
Post by: Telgin on February 03, 2020, 12:03:19 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on February 03, 2020, 04:02:17 pm
i mean the stellaris economy has never been right. never. it's always been absolute trash. we dozens of highly finnicky and customizable sources of resources and production, aka planets, yet we have global pools of resources that completely disengage your ship production from your resource harvesting and refining. it's just dumb.
and yeah, the pop/species management system is atrocious. just utter garbage.
so glad that games like eu4 and ck2 abstract all of this stuff, because stellaris absolutely proves that pds is incapable of designing and implementing a more detailed system.
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 03, 2020, 06:59:59 pm
Post by: Iceblaster on February 03, 2020, 08:09:12 pm
Spoiler: hot take (click to show/hide)
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 04, 2020, 05:55:35 am
Post by: EuchreJack on February 04, 2020, 03:20:45 pm
*Economy in that pops give specific resources in the form of gold, research, troops, or commerce (other gold). And trade goods give bonuses instead of actual stuff, and the trading is abstracted again for gold. Still, they have a developer tinkering with Imperator: Rome, and I've wondered why. Perhaps they're using it to experiment on replacements for the system in Stellaris.
Post by: LoSboccacc on February 29, 2020, 10:21:21 am
wait what
Post by: Cruxador on February 29, 2020, 11:07:30 am
> we fixed federations, that'd be 19.99$Are you really surprised?
wait what
Post by: pisskop on March 01, 2020, 06:59:45 pm
Something about permissions? idk, but it looks like its explicitly a problem with paradox games.
Post by: Telgin on March 01, 2020, 08:33:29 pm
> we fixed federations, that'd be 19.99$
wait what
I'm curious if they actually fixed the problems with federations or just added new mechanics. I'm specifically thinking of things like the 1,000 empty fleets that show up in the fleet manager because the AI keeps building corvettes, one at a time, to reinforce the federation fleet. I know they made some changes to fleet reinforcements, so maybe they did.
Unrelated, but I had a humorous bug in my current game: a determined exterminator suffered a rebellion, which produced an empire of one system and two planets that were ostensibly controlled by a new reptilian empire despite the exterminators being avian designs. The planets had no organic pops as far as I can tell and only had robots that were disassembling.
I didn't know gestalts could even have rebellions, much less have any idea where the reptilians came from. This was a special game I set up with just the exterminators as the only other AI, and no primitives.
Post by: amjh on March 03, 2020, 12:58:16 pm
Post by: Telgin on March 03, 2020, 01:04:03 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 03, 2020, 02:34:44 pm
it's likely we'll never see them again until they've found King Arthur & Tupac
Breaking news: Tupac is an immortal, was also King Arthur.
Post by: Sartain on March 04, 2020, 10:54:06 am
I'm curious if they actually fixed the problems with federations or just added new mechanics. I'm specifically thinking of things like the 1,000 empty fleets that show up in the fleet manager because the AI keeps building corvettes, one at a time, to reinforce the federation fleet. I know they made some changes to fleet reinforcements, so maybe they did.
I'm guessing that they've added more mechanics with very little to no regard for how these mechanics actually interact with already existing mechanics, as that seems to have been the M.O. since around 2.0 I guess
Post by: Rolan7 on March 04, 2020, 12:24:29 pm
The launcher crashes? You might be able to bypass it and just run the game directly, but I'm not sure how exactly.Probably both. I agree with Sartain that it's probably going to be... messy at first, with some bugfixes coming out in the days after launch. But their development is spectacularly open, with back and forth discussion happening on their forums, so I blame that on the scale of their changes rather than laziness or anything.> we fixed federations, that'd be 19.99$
wait what
I'm curious if they actually fixed the problems with federations or just added new mechanics. I'm specifically thinking of things like the 1,000 empty fleets that show up in the fleet manager because the AI keeps building corvettes, one at a time, to reinforce the federation fleet. I know they made some changes to fleet reinforcements, so maybe they did.
It's also a good thing that they're changing so much. Isn't that what people have been demanding, a proper federation system with depth? Of course the playerbase will find bugs that in-house testing didn't, just by volume. It's a sweeping rebuild of a core mechanic of the game, it will have bugs.
Which actually makes the accusation that it'll cost $19.99 laughable. The new mechanics are free, as is their longstanding policy. They merely lock the wilder options. We all get the improved federations (and yes, the bugs :P).
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 04, 2020, 12:25:32 pm
I'm curious if they actually fixed the problems with federations or just added new mechanics. I'm specifically thinking of things like the 1,000 empty fleets that show up in the fleet manager because the AI keeps building corvettes, one at a time, to reinforce the federation fleet. I know they made some changes to fleet reinforcements, so maybe they did.
I'm guessing that they've added more mechanics with very little to no regard for how these mechanics actually interact with already existing mechanics, as that seems to have been the M.O. since around 2.0 I guess
that's Paradox in a nutshell for you. every DLC will stand on its own with very little interaction with any other DLC. years later, they might realize that fact and try and merge them together in some way, or make a DLC part of the base game.
Post by: Damiac on March 04, 2020, 01:38:57 pm
$200? And the game isn't finished. They're still trying to figure out basic mechanics like economy and population stuff. The entire war system was scrapped and redone and still is horrible. The game was marketed as having 3 different FTL methods (remember that?)
There's no version where everything works right. You like the warp stuff, well sorry, you gotta take all the bugs. You want the bugs fixed? Ok, but no warp options and you have to take the new shitty war system.
They should offer all the DLC for free to whoever bought this. As an apology for lying about the game being a finished game, rather than an expensive early access title to boost some random devs' resumes.
Angry face emoji!!!
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 04, 2020, 03:03:37 pm
The only thing that makes me (very mildly) angry is hearing the same broken record complaining how Paradox should be ashamed of themselves, ashamed I say!, again and again. It's not as bad as the Cataclysm threads, but sometimes getting through to a post that actually talks about the game in the thread about the game can be a pain. It's like having to push through Westboro Baptists protestors to get to a cinema.
Meh emoji. Slightly annoyed emoji.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on March 04, 2020, 03:42:07 pm
They didn't lie at any point. At the beginning, they sold just Stellaris. People know what they're getting. If you knew about Paradox's DLC models then you accepted that as well, and if you didn't then clearly you were fine without the prospect of major DLC.
When they sell DLC, you know exactly what you are getting. If you pay this much money for this DLC, you get the features of this DLC. Everyone gets this update. Terrific! Then they continued to change things and improve the game. Some people don't like this change. That's okay. Regardless, they can still easily revert back to the version which they spent their money based on.
At no point did they lie about their game. They never misrepresented it in marketing. They haven't made any promises to never ever change any features just in case it hurts someone's feelings and that person is mad they can't get any more free content for their game since apparently they bought Stellaris exclusively as Warp Drive Simulator 2016.
I personally am pretty disappointed in Stellaris lately (namely: this update/DLC is a bit underwhelming, there's pretty much no QA, and jesus christ the AI) but that's veerry different from demanding they refund DLC for... reasons?
Post by: Iceblaster on March 04, 2020, 04:29:32 pm
Unsure if I like Stellaris as it exists. It's changed so much from what I bought in on. The systems changed may be better than it was before, but I feel like Stellaris lost some of the charm for me. The change from the what I dub the amoeba-like borders with constant change as planets grow and frontier outposts are placed, and the tiles + just outright removing the multiple FTL is what's kinda killed my enthusiasm for Stellaris as a game and not just using it as a story generator. Because atm, I don't play Stellaris like I play something like Civ where I play it to play and have fun, I play Stellaris nowadays to get stories and the like.
Which isn't bad, but it feels like the Stellaris I used to like has been changed so much.
AM I the only one who has this kinda relationship with Stellaris?
EDIT: Also, forgot to mention that I kinda miss the tile system, always felt like the total scrapping of it was just shortsighted.
Post by: Telgin on March 04, 2020, 06:58:32 pm
And while I'm a little torn on the tile system, I think it's vastly better overall now than it was. Maybe they could do some other kind of surface visualization, since I do miss seeing the pop portraits on a planet at a glance (and since it's so tucked away now I don't even care about happiness anymore), but limiting pops and development to the tiles was always, well, limiting.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 04, 2020, 07:03:46 pm
Post by: Trolldefender99 on March 04, 2020, 07:12:49 pm
In any case, personally find a lot of the changes in Stellaris to be a positive overall. With the caveat I like the story/RP aspect the best, which does seem to be where its focus went to.
Post by: Kanil on March 04, 2020, 08:35:56 pm
I didn't really start playing until 2.0, so I don't have nostalgia for the multiple FTL types and even now I wonder how some of them even worked in practice. Trying to pin down and fight an empire with warp tech when you have hyperdrives sounds miserable.
Yeah, I played exactly one game of Stellaris with mixed FTL types, then ticked the "hyperlane only" feature for all subsequent games. Not sure they needed to remove it for the people who liked it, but it's not a change I noticed in the slightest.
As for tiles, well... I think they're a worse design than the current system, but the current system is so broken that the game has actually been less fun since they added it -- performance has been terrible and balance isn't any better. If they actually fix and balance it, I'll consider it an improvement... but after one year, two DLC, and three patches I'm starting to wonder "if" it'll happen rather than "when".
Post by: Cruxador on March 04, 2020, 08:48:43 pm
I didn't really start playing until 2.0, so I don't have nostalgia for the multiple FTL types and even now I wonder how some of them even worked in practice. Trying to pin down and fight an empire with warp tech when you have hyperdrives sounds miserable. Did the ships even exit warp in systems they weren't stopping in?Warp was generally slower, so catching a warper with hyperlanes wasn't really difficult unless you had a big gap between your group of worlds and nearby planets with enemies who somehow knew about this, which didn't really happen in practice and the AI certainly wouldn't have been able to exploit it if it had. Warp ships didn't stop in systems that they didn't stop in, but they did have to make plenty of stops when traveling long distances. Warp jumps weren't further than most hyperdrives at the lowest tech level and only increased by like 50% or something each upgrade.
Not sure they needed to remove it for the people who liked it,Part of their justification was that it let them do stuff like the gateway system and the new version of warp engines without it being too confusing. The real reason is just that they can't be bothered to support multiple methods.
Post by: Iceblaster on March 04, 2020, 08:51:24 pm
Also reminds me taht I am sad weapont ype choice isn't a thing. Realistic? no, but it contributed to the differentiation between empires and how they developed.
Post by: Telgin on March 05, 2020, 10:09:50 am
Warp ships didn't stop in systems that they didn't stop in, but they did have to make plenty of stops when traveling long distances. Warp jumps weren't further than most hyperdrives at the lowest tech level and only increased by like 50% or something each upgrade.
Oh, warp had limited range per jump? That makes a lot more sense then, since I assumed they just went from point A to point B directly, regardless of distance. I played just one 1.9 game so I didn't remember anything about how it worked.
Anyway, on a different subject, it looks like the AI is getting some legitimate improvements: dev diary (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-172-reworking-the-ai.1348837/)
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 05, 2020, 11:08:27 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on March 05, 2020, 02:50:22 pm
Anyway, on a different subject, it looks like the AI is getting some legitimate improvements: dev diary (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-172-reworking-the-ai.1348837/)Oh thank god. That dev diary is actually pretty uplifting to read. One of the AI's biggest problems (in addition to it just, y'know, fundamentally not working) was stuff like building weighting. Some buildings just not ever being given an AI weighting so they're never built by the AI or considered as an option.
Reading it suggests they're actually addressing the AI's core issues. Better yet, they're doing this without (it seems, at least) band-aid fixes. Like just doing away with buildings weights entirely and have the AI dynamically evaluate building options on an empire-wide basis rather than a planet-wide one. It's amazing they've let it get this bad, but this is actually very hope-inducing.
Different FTL types was a nice feature but I definitely agree with their choice to remove it. Sure, it is easier to maintain, but things like that destroy so many would-be options for development. It's easier to make interesting and fun content when your baseline is just one thing -- the hyperdrive in this case. Stuff like making the jump drive a much more noticeable change to the game. Hyperdrive-only makes the "terrain" of the map much more important since now you can have actual chokepoints and bring in more tactics with defense and attack.
It's pretty unfair to say that they only removed other FTL methods because "they can't be bothered to support multiple methods." Even if there were no noticeable benefits to the change to players, cutting down requirements in maintaining other systems is extremely legitimate. If developers have to spend less time going "wait how will balance be affected by this new feature and warp/wormhole drives?" and less time making sure the systems play nice, that's more time spent on developing other parts of the game.
It's extraordinarily tiring to hear the narrative that "developers of [game] did(n't) do [this] because they're incompetent and LAZY!!" It represents such a core misunderstanding of game development behind the scenes.
Post by: Telgin on March 05, 2020, 10:58:25 pm
The building weighting thing almost makes sense, but the thing that really puzzled me about the existing AI is how job selection worked with weighting. That, admittedly, may not be getting fixed, but if I remember right every job had to have modifiers manually added for pop traits, which seems backward to me and led to mistakes that had to be patched. A job about generating minerals should get modifiers from mineral output, which should be calculated on the pop first, not by manually checking traits on the pop instead.
I'm sure they had their reasons for doing it like this, but I don't know what they are. Saving a few floating point calculations per pop per update may be the reason, and it may well be significant.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 07, 2020, 02:32:11 am
-snip-To add to this, on a technical level hyperdrive-only makes pathfinding a lot simpler. And under the hood I imagine distance calculations were a huge problem. Since under the old system the distance between two stars couldn't be represented as a single number, but rather had to be represented by 2 + number of wormhole civs values. Which sounds like some kind of abstract physics problem.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 07, 2020, 07:47:00 am
Indeed, in fact one of the stated reasons for removing wormhole FTL was that it caused massive slowdowns while calculating possible paths for the AI.-snip-And under the hood I imagine distance calculations were a huge problem.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 08, 2020, 03:39:10 pm
Post by: pisskop on March 10, 2020, 07:56:51 am
So I went and decided to boot this up on my new comp. Got steam working fine. Got my dlc in order. Load -> crash on launcher. Exception log says its a memory access problem, but not only is the computer new, the solutions Ive seen online dont seem to help?I fixxed this . . . by running it on my old laptop. I guess Im good to go? Stellaris fortunately doesnt need an incredibly beefy computer to go.
Something about permissions? idk, but it looks like its explicitly a problem with paradox games.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 10, 2020, 01:03:35 pm
Post by: Telgin on March 10, 2020, 01:16:51 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 10, 2020, 01:21:31 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 10, 2020, 02:01:19 pm
Post by: Culise on March 10, 2020, 08:17:24 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: IronyOwl on March 10, 2020, 08:31:10 pm
FederationsDamn, that's tempting. I'm sure I could get the same or better results out of three hours of modding, but that requires effort.
- Void Dwellers: Start on a Habitat above your destroyed, former homeworld, and with 2 more habitats in your home system. Completely adapted to living in habitats, and start with the technology to build new ones, but also suffers a penalty to living on regular planets.
- Doomsday: Your homeworld is doomed and it will explode after 64 years, so you need to find a new home for your species.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 10, 2020, 08:33:57 pm
Post by: Damiac on March 11, 2020, 09:00:30 am
I liked the game when it first released and I like it now. I even like the business model, since I keep having fun with the product in its many iterations long after normally I'd be done with it.
The only thing that makes me (very mildly) angry is hearing the same broken record complaining how Paradox should be ashamed of themselves, ashamed I say!, again and again. It's not as bad as the Cataclysm threads, but sometimes getting through to a post that actually talks about the game in the thread about the game can be a pain. It's like having to push through Westboro Baptists protestors to get to a cinema.
Meh emoji. Slightly annoyed emoji.
Eh, it's annoying to me when people declare other people's annoyance to be invalid. What can you do. God hates game devs who keep changing their games, right? (Westboro joke).
It's annoying when something you like gets changed down a strange path, most of the people who liked the thing in the first place get annoyed with it and abandon it, and the 10% of the leftover people insist that nobody minded the changes because they don't hear all that much complaining anymore. There are always people who will praise each and every move by game devs regardless, and I'm not accusing you of lying that you like the game. I believe you 100% like it just how it is. But how it is is very different from what it is supposed to be, according to the description of the product I bought.
The product I bought was a bunch of neat concepts in a kinda buggy package that we knew was gonna keep getting bugfixed. At least, that's what usually happens. Keep iterating on the original selling point. Not fire the dev * 2 and remake the game each time. The game I bought was abandoned with a smile and a "well buy this and this and this and this, and it still won't be the game you bought, but it's fun, we swear!".
Most people just move on, rather than coming back every so often to restate their complaints. This gives the illusion that everyone's happy with it. And I don't know about you, but I personally like to see my own seemingly unpopular views shared, so I will keep making dumb posts like this in the hopes someone else says "You know what? That's kinda how I feel about it".
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 11, 2020, 12:35:15 pm
It is not cool to try and shame anyone for the direction a game takes or their preference in enjoying it.
I for one enjoy that Stellaris has changed so much and so drastically over time. If someone else does not enjoy this because they wanted it to stay the same, that is fine too.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on March 11, 2020, 08:50:00 pm
I...
It's annoying when something you like gets changed down a strange path, most of the people who liked the thing in the first place get annoyed with it and abandon it, and the 10% of the leftover people insist that nobody minded the changes because they don't hear all that much complaining anymore. There are always people who will praise each and every move by game devs regardless, and I'm not accusing you of lying that you like the game. I believe you 100% like it just how it is. But how it is is very different from what it is supposed to be, according to the description of the product I bought.
The product I bought was a bunch of neat concepts in a kinda buggy package that we knew was gonna keep getting bugfixed. At least, that's what usually happens. Keep iterating on the original selling point. Not fire the dev * 2 and remake the game each time. The game I bought was abandoned with a smile and a "well buy this and this and this and this, and it still won't be the game you bought, but it's fun, we swear!".
Most people just move on, rather than coming back every so often to restate their complaints. This gives the illusion that everyone's happy with it. And I don't know about you, but I personally like to see my own seemingly unpopular views shared, so I will keep making dumb posts like this in the hopes someone else says "You know what? That's kinda how I feel about it".
You're making quite a lot of bold claims there, buddy. "Most people who liked the thing get annoyed with it and abandon it," Uh. Do you have any kind of indication that this is the case rather than the fact that you don't like the game so therefore most people must feel the same way?
Things change. Not everyone likes the changes, and that's perfectly fine. But when those people who dislike it keep on bringing it up again it kind of gets tiring.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 11, 2020, 08:57:31 pm
Feel free not to do so, and talk about why. But it's hardly failing due to a lack of interest/enjoyment. Everyone I've ever played it with is currently quite excited at the upcoming Federations thing.
I'd like to hear more about your opinions, Damiac. What do you not like about the major changes since launch? Is it the move from tiles? The FTL simplification? Did something in an expac mess stuff up for you? Gimme dem details.
I miss FTL options myself.
Post by: LoSboccacc on March 12, 2020, 03:00:25 am
I didn't the game at launch, and will try this federation thing at some point when it get a discount, but at least I'm hearing good things now from youtubers, seems they're at least acknowledging some of the issue, which is a start.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on March 12, 2020, 01:57:05 pm
I still am not particularly excited for any of the DLC features but just the fact that they're actually addressing the AI -- and in a non-bandaid way -- has me feeling a lot better about their overall handling of it.
And I do personally miss planet tiles. The new system is overall a lot better, sure, but the tiles just gave a nice and arguably needed "presence" to the planets. I think in a more accessible-to-newbies way too. It's one thing to hear that your planet has these cool buildings and see the numbers, but seeing those buildings on a tile and a pop working that tile is pretty relatively easy to understand.
Again, the new system is better. But I think they threw the baby out with the bathwater a bit here -- they may very well have been able to implement the new changes without completely eliminating all traces of tiles.
FTL options were nice, too. I agree with their removal, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a cool feature.
Post by: IronyOwl on March 12, 2020, 04:00:26 pm
Post by: Iceblaster on March 12, 2020, 05:24:00 pm
/me shrugs.
Primarily just feel like current interface while able to represent much more populated and productive planets loses some of the unique feel Stellaris had in its early days.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 12, 2020, 10:11:59 pm
I liked adjacency bonuses and a way to properly visualize stuff. Would've loved if they like. Made the tiles half size, let you automate things better, and generally just made it less tedious. Hell, get rid of army view during battles and have a small mini thing where armies have to take each tile. Maybe a smaller scale movement interface for that to capture planets. Maybe some sort of victory point thing, where certain buildings or tile features give a score for capturing the planet.
oh god please never ever
just bog down the repetitiveness of everything in stellaris by a factor of ten? no. no. no.
i will say: i understand the instinct. stellaris is a shell of a game in search of a soul. paradox has no idea what to do with it which is why it's been through massive revisions multiple times.
adding a 2d army minigame that you have to do 100 times per playthrough? not going to help
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 13, 2020, 05:31:58 am
Post by: Sartain on March 13, 2020, 06:02:01 am
Post by: Teneb on March 13, 2020, 08:36:56 am
If they ever did rework ground combat, a system a bit like the archeological sites where an invasion is a longer process with events might be cool. After all, conquering an entire planet takes a while and is not just one battle. You'd be able to send reinforcements, switch out generals, commit/retreat fleats for orbital bombardment as needed, and lots of other cool things I'm sure, and effectiveness could be based on unit types, technological level, special techs, general skills and levels, terrain features, building features and more.So... EU4 sieges? Because that's basically what the archeological system is.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 13, 2020, 08:38:03 am
Post by: Telgin on March 13, 2020, 08:50:11 am
But, really, I would like a bit more depth to space battles too. I rarely even bother to redesign ships unless I'm facing the crisis.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 13, 2020, 08:53:19 am
Making it a totally manual process/minigame would terrible, imo.
Post by: Cruxador on March 13, 2020, 09:45:08 am
I did have an idea, back when there were tiles, of letting your troops move across different tiles and capture them one at a time in a mostly automated fashion as in HoI4, which would have made tile positioning and ground defenses more interesting as well as enhancing invasions, but that's not the direction the game has taken.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 13, 2020, 09:59:22 am
It's fine to have a minigame type thing if it plays itself and you only need to get involved if, like in EU4, you want to spend something (whether it's a resource or lives) to speed things up. Or perhaps choose to micromanage important battles for a bit more efficiency, though personally I'm not a fan of design where more tedious play is strictly better.The same could happen now, just make an array of spaces equal to the planet's size and have the troops occupy them. You could even simulate civilian resistance. Every 5 spaces you control you get a random building and can use occupation policies to force captured population to keep working for you, etc.
I did have an idea, back when there were tiles, of letting your troops move across different tiles and capture them one at a time in a mostly automated fashion as in HoI4, which would have made tile positioning and ground defenses more interesting as well as enhancing invasions, but that's not the direction the game has taken.
Post by: Sartain on March 13, 2020, 10:40:21 am
EU4 sieges but with some more complexity would be nice.
This pretty much. It also has the added bonus of mirroring an already existing in-game mechanic instead of having to re-invent the wheel, which Stellaris has already tried to too many times IMO
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 13, 2020, 01:19:04 pm
If you gave me a mild total war option where I could control some stuff on the ground or opt to auto resolve (ergo use the current system) I'd spring for that.
Post by: Cruxador on March 13, 2020, 03:14:49 pm
Yeah I ain't into a siege minigame. Or even a visual representation. It would get stupid repetitive.Total War definitely gets a lot more repetitive than a visual thing you don't even have to look at, though.
If you gave me a mild total war option where I could control some stuff on the ground or opt to auto resolve (ergo use the current system) I'd spring for that.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 13, 2020, 03:32:09 pm
Yeah I ain't into a siege minigame. Or even a visual representation. It would get stupid repetitive.Total War definitely gets a lot more repetitive than a visual thing you don't even have to look at, though.
If you gave me a mild total war option where I could control some stuff on the ground or opt to auto resolve (ergo use the current system) I'd spring for that.
Well yeah, but that's there the "opt to auto-resolve with the current system" comes in.
Point is a minigame is grating after like, 2 goes, but a lil' mini RTS thing would be bearable.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 13, 2020, 04:09:06 pm
Speaking of armies though, I was just thinking of a way they could be more than trivial busywork: let them bumrush defenses. Instead of stopping dead when engaged (sorry, I mean spin in a tight circle), let them keep moving. Let them even land on planets without asking the starbase for permission first. In fact, let them board starbases.
I know it's a wild change, but it would give all those completely meaningless ground combat modifiers some relevance. There are already countermeasures in place, like FTL interdiction in border systems. It would give the planetary shield a use too! (Why did they remove its physics research? Was the planetary shield OP??). Taking undamaged starbases should be a bloody affair, requiring the shuttles to first make the approach (potentially screened by warships), then fight unevenly. That combat width mechanic? Allow 6 defenders to fight 3 attackers (or 2 or 1, with the right starbase modules). Most species would still just shoot up the starbase until it "surrenders", but it'd be a situationally useful option.
You should also be able to do more things to an occupied world, if your government supports that sort of thing. Not just extermination, but the raiding "bombardment type" should unlock a much more efficient process if you actually hold the planet. Assimilation, too.
Post by: Sartain on March 13, 2020, 04:29:17 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 13, 2020, 06:17:20 pm
Total War is a great comparison. You don't want to manually fight out every tiny-ass garrison fight because most of them are guaranteed one way or the other.
And that's with a game where the tactical battles are like, 80% of the draw of the game.
Post by: Sartain on March 13, 2020, 06:21:28 pm
The problem is that whatever you do it's going to end up being insanely repetitive because the context of 95% of ground invasions is "foregone conclusion because I can just throw a bunch of resources at it."
Total War is a great comparison. You don't want to manually fight out every tiny-ass garrison fight because most of them are guaranteed one way or the other.
And that's with a game where the tactical battles are like, 80% of the draw of the game.
Not sure if that's meant as a reply to me but if it is, this is exactly why I want something that runs mostly by itself (like archeology and EU4 sieges) but with enough features added on that you can choose to interact with it on a deeper level, but simple enough that for the most part you can just throw enough people at it to brute-force it if you don't want to deal with the details of it.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 13, 2020, 06:23:31 pm
Keep the same system now for all the piddly little invasions that you'll win anyway, get us some RTS stuff for when we want to go in for it. Doesn't even have to be in-depth, maybe just some starcraft 1 basics or something.
That's probably a huge pain in the ass from a dev standpoint, but hey.
Post by: Sartain on March 13, 2020, 06:38:32 pm
Total War has that "I feel like fighting this, so I will, because it's fun" thing going for it.
Keep the same system now for all the piddly little invasions that you'll win anyway, get us some RTS stuff for when we want to go in for it. Doesn't even have to be in-depth, maybe just some starcraft 1 basics or something.
That's probably a huge pain in the ass from a dev standpoint, but hey.
That's so not what I want from a grand strategy game and as far I understand Paradox, not really what they want either. The whole point (well one of them) is to divest you from the micro-managing of individual units and instead let you handle the macro-level delegating of forces and commanding officers and whatnot. You're the ruler, you don't tell the squads where to go, you assign generals to armies and tell the generals where to go win your wars for you
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 14, 2020, 10:32:45 am
But again, that's why you've got the current system staying in as-is. I just can't think of any other side-content for a ground battle that doesn't get stale after the first few plays.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on March 14, 2020, 02:07:26 pm
When I get space marines or combat xenomorphs, I want to be able to go "oh AWESOME" not "cool i guess?" -- it's just such a sheer numbers game (based on a small amount of numbers) that different units don't really feel better/different mechanically or thematically. While a minigame would be cool it'd definitely be bad for the game as everyone's said, so even just general "strategy" would be an immense improvement. You wouldn't individually command your legions, but -- like in other space 4xs -- some choice over the overarching strategy of the invasion would be nice.
To take from Galactic Civilizations 2 as an example (since that's the only other space 4x I really have any notable amount of playtime with in the past) when invading a planet you can choose from options like a propaganda-based attack, throwing an asteroid at them, biological warfare, a straight-up attack, and so on. Endless Space (2?) also has some stuff here -- from what I remember defenders can choose essentially to just surrender, offer partial resistance, or wage a complete ground war. Affecting things like how much of your ground forces remain for potential future combat there; having your garrison immediately retreat/surrender so they can help retake the planet. Things like that, though I could be misremembering.
Some fancy visualization would be cool if entirely unecessary, though. I'm a sucker for that. Galactic Civilization 2's visualization? Completely unnecessary but I sure do like watching the guys shoot each other.
So basically in my opinion: make different types of ground units stand out more, give defenders/attackers a choice for how to approach their general strategy to ground invasion/defense, and
Post by: Iceblaster on March 14, 2020, 05:28:41 pm
Maybe crank up collateral damage for a start. Feels like it's not really making an impact due to battles not really lasting long enough to have it proc even for those with high collateral, like xenomorphs. Make that a factor, basically wreck the planet during your invasion or have a precision attack. Small things, as I don't really want yet another 'we removed an entire system and replaced it with another kinda functional one' situation :P
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 14, 2020, 06:12:05 pm
Yeah y'kno I'd happily take a simple visual thing. Hit a button, switch to a different window, watch some dudes running through a little gauntlet or something with attackers and defenders, etc. No player interaction, just eye candy representative of what's happening according to the numbers. It would help different units stand out more, even if it's a placebo, and maybe you could even tie it in to the collateral damage thing by making the missile actually visibly go haywire or whatnot.
Post by: Iceblaster on March 14, 2020, 08:25:43 pm
Post by: E. Albright on March 14, 2020, 09:44:05 pm
Post by: JWNoctis on March 14, 2020, 11:04:43 pm
It certainly did not look out of the line with the rest of that game.
Post by: Sartain on March 15, 2020, 12:11:25 am
To make ground combat meaningful I'd say you'd need at least 3-6 basic unit types (infantry, armor, navy, air, engineering etc) maybe with a few subtypes (light/heavy, fighter/bomber, recon and so on) and these units should have different strengths and weaknesses against the different types and on various theatres of war (navy good for ocean, not so good for mountains for example). On top of that, the tech units (xenomorphs, space marines, psy-warriors and so on) should have noticeable strengths (say xenomorphs go through infantry like butter) but also some drawbacks. And of course unsual empires like gestalts, plants, lithoids and such could also have unique unit types. You could even tie some of them to civics.
Of course, we don't want some silly RTS in our Stellaris but if they instead looked to how CK2 and EU4 handles combat and sieges, and develop a meaningful "campaign mode" (as I've already tried to describe previously), well I would at least be stoked about it :D
Post by: Rolan7 on March 15, 2020, 12:33:42 am
The existing system of collateral damage in return for efficiency is better. I don't want to manage 5 army types, I want to choose the type of war I'm aiming for. Will I sacrifice the planet's infrastructure for victory, equipping everyone with fusion rifles which punch holes in buildings? Or will my troops take the field as glorious liberators, shooting incapacitating shock/gel rounds? Suffering for their less lethal but also less lethal ammunition?
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 15, 2020, 06:54:15 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 15, 2020, 07:22:33 am
Hold on. Somebody actually ever cared about how much collateral damage they are causing when invading?I do when I'm trying to capture a planet mostly intact. Pops are valuable, and infrastructure I don't destroy is stuff I don't have to rebuild.
Post by: Sartain on March 15, 2020, 07:46:27 am
That's not the direction I'd want to go with it. Yeah MoO2 had tanks+battlebots, but that was a simple system that mostly gave a defensive bonus to empires who'd lost space combat. Very similar to planetary shielding, I'd say.
The existing system of collateral damage in return for efficiency is better. I don't want to manage 5 army types, I want to choose the type of war I'm aiming for. Will I sacrifice the planet's infrastructure for victory, equipping everyone with fusion rifles which punch holes in buildings? Or will my troops take the field as glorious liberators, shooting incapacitating shock/gel rounds? Suffering for their less lethal but also less lethal ammunition?
Well that was actually also part of my idea. I mean I know it's probably never going to happen, but having to buy from a few different army types instead of just the one we have currently, and giving them meaningful difference in terms of how they impact the invasions they're part of through precisely stuff like collateral damage and also stuff like advantage against certain units and terrain bonuses would go a long way to make ground combat a lot more meaningful. You could even bring back the unit attachments feature and make something relevant of it, it's more that the numbers need tweaking more than inventing an entirely new system, as far as I can tell at least.
I realise my idea probably sounds overly complex for most people's tastes but what I'm really just suggesting is a system that mixes something similar to the unit system of CK2 (multiple units with various performance adjustments and tactics that mostly work 'under the hood') with an enhanced mix-up version of the EU4 siege system combined with Stellaris archeological system.
I imagine it going something like this:
- Produce an army from whatever combined arms solution you have access to and feel is appropriate. As usual except the number of options is larger than 1 and unit stats will be relevant.
- Hire/Appoint a general to said army, as usual, except more unit types, tactics and terrain features means more possible talents that are relevant.
- Send army to invade planet as usual, except instead of a quickie-battle and then you're done Planetary Invasion is a semi-automated protracted campaign that rolls a lot of dice 'behind the screen' with modifier dependent on attacker vs. defender army composition, unit bonuses/maluses in regards to terrain and vs. specific unit types, planetary defenses and features and of course general vs. general level and talents. You can also choose/change what sort of campaign you're doing(scorched earth, genocide, civilian regard, etc) dependent on empire/ethics/policies/general talents/unit types present/etc.
- Conquering an entire planet will take a while! The Invasion rolls for progress once every so often (weekly, bi-weekly, monthly tick?) and depending on level of success or failure, the attacker conquers part of the planet and now controls, and units take attrition damage for the campaign + buildings, districts and populace suffer from collateral damage. If needed, attacker and defender can land more units on the planet to support the invasion or defense.
- As a planetary invasion conquers territory the invader takes control of the buildings and districts of the planet and gain access to their resource output + options for interacting with the populace conquered so far. This lets some empire types purge/assimilate/enslave/whatever pops in a war before ending the war and claiming planets. Should maybe be at a reduced rate as compared to the regular version and require some form of resource payment.
- Once a planet is 100% conquered it acts much like it does in the current game design, except as noted above, and except the fact that a military presence is required to keep invasion rate at 100%, prevent potential insurgencies and maintain any sort of interaction with the populace.
Post by: E. Albright on March 15, 2020, 10:30:19 am
The existing system of collateral damage in return for efficiency is better. I don't want to manage 5 army types, I want to choose the type of war I'm aiming for.
You could look at Endless Space's take on this, where you don't manually manage different troop types but rather manage global troop type proportions, so you're not determining that X infantry and Y armor and Z aircraft will invade, but instead invading armies will be made up of X% infantry, etc., possibly with certain army types by their nature not allowing for certain troop types in their formations.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 17, 2020, 03:58:43 pm
I decided a UNE first run would be appropriate (especially without owning the DLC origins). Amusingly enough I spawned right next to the Commonwealth of Man :D The envoy system made it surprisingly easy to be their friend (plus they don't feel xenophobia toward fellow humans). I worked up to a defensive pact with them, but then also with a Xenophilic Military Commissariat. They rivaled each other (making both of them resent me) but envoys let me stay friends with both... Until In 2222 I went ahead and formed the The Federation (sic). The Commonwealth of Man can grow up if they want to join, I prefer my clubs with aliens :P (I desperately need some Arid ones, every alien I've met likes oceans so far)
The The Federation was initially losing XP due to low cohesion, despite it being the generic Federation type which has less penalty for diverse ethics. Apparently cohesion starts low, and takes hits when people join. Assigning 2 envoys (and my partner assigning 1) was enough to pull it to 100% cohesion in about 4 years, maximizing the rate of XP gain. Now it looks like I can pull my envoys to other tasks, though I think that there's a cohesion penalty if you pull all of them...
I'm sure this is obvious to people who followed the dev diaries, but our new The Federation isn't more than an exclusive defensive pact yet. It takes 120 months of max-cohesion to reach Level 2 I guess, which is when the really basic stuff gets unlocked for *voting on*. Stuff like having any federation fleet at all. So many options, though! And some of these level-up bonuses like +1 envoy look really great! Or uh, hilariously awful like "+1 unity per envoy assigned to federation". woo, +3 unity ~30 years in... I'll take +1 influence instead thanks. Ooh although that latter bonus is only for the current president, as opposed to +10% speed for all members. Eee I'm excited!
And I... think this is non-DLC content? I went ahead and got the DLC mid-game because I like the envoy system, and I know I want certain things like Voidborn start. I think anybody can form a generic-style Galactic Union federation like this one.
Edit: The tiny amounts of bonus unity gain are particularly odd when you can apparently build multiple Autochthon monuments per planet now?? I had to resist an urge to go Easter-Island and tank my economy.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 17, 2020, 05:39:38 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 18, 2020, 09:37:37 am
For game-specific experiences after a few hours of playing, early game seems much easier now with the envoys. Where before, more often than not, you had to jump through hoops to make that overwhelmingly powerful and unfriendly neighbour not to steamroll you, now you can just plonk your envoys at them and shortly after you're BFFs. The modifiers from ethics conflict or border friction are almost an afterthought.
This might be a good thing in the long run, since it's clearly facilitating the federations-centred play over going it alone - but it does change the dynamics and challenges one might have been used to.
Most of the origins likewise make the game easier by providing unique or not-so unique benefits. On the other hand, other empires have those too, so on average everyone has it a bit easier. Seems to me.
Post by: Cruxador on March 18, 2020, 10:14:11 am
On-release Bugs are present.As we've come to expect from Stellaris.
Quote
For game-specific experiences after a few hours of playing, early game seems much easier now with the envoys [...] Most of the origins likewise make the game easier by providing unique or not-so unique benefits. On the other hand, other empires have those too, so on average everyone has it a bit easier. Seems to me.Although to my knowledge they've never confirmed this officially, I'm pretty sure they always balance new stuff to be powerful enough that it changes the focus of the game. This encourages people to play with the new stuff and interact with altered parts of the game, which is beneficial both in that it allows Paradox to get more relevant feedback and because it focuses people on exactly the part of the game that the DLC works with, encouraging sales. It'll usually be dialed back a bit in the following patch.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 18, 2020, 02:53:25 pm
There were 14 other members.
(https://wompampsupport.azureedge.net/fetchimage?siteId=7575&v=2&jpgQuality=100&width=700&url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.kym-cdn.com%2Fentries%2Ficons%2Ffacebook%2F000%2F028%2F497%2Fpalp.jpg)
Post by: Cruxador on March 18, 2020, 03:56:34 pm
Saw a report of a guy who voted to make himself the only permanent council member, then voted to make the council size 1.I haven't played Stellaris since the new patch, so I don't know if the federation code could even allow this, but that situation ought to instead shift you to a hegemony.
There were 14 other members.
(https://wompampsupport.azureedge.net/fetchimage?siteId=7575&v=2&jpgQuality=100&width=700&url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.kym-cdn.com%2Fentries%2Ficons%2Ffacebook%2F000%2F028%2F497%2Fpalp.jpg)
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 18, 2020, 05:09:50 pm
Post by: Cruxador on March 18, 2020, 07:51:35 pm
The guy screenshotted it, I don't have it handy but yes this actually happened in Stellaris.He screenshotted that it turned into a hegemony from another type? Because that was the part I was doubting the possibility of, not what you described.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 18, 2020, 07:58:11 pm
The guy screenshotted it, I don't have it handy but yes this actually happened in Stellaris.He screenshotted that it turned into a hegemony from another type? Because that was the part I was doubting the possibility of, not what you described.
Oh. yes, just that it happened.
You'd think it would become a hegemony though, yes.
Post by: Telgin on March 18, 2020, 11:46:40 pm
And then... I encountered some militarist aliens to the south who I could not convince to like me with my envoy, and then they declared war on my defensive pact allies. We got dragged into a war I was utterly unprepared for and could not win.
Then my economy tanked so hard on consumer goods I literally could not buy enough to stay afloat, so I conceded.
I probably should have switched away from utopian abundance living standards, but kind of planned to restart anyway since I got hemmed in and had a small empire. I will say that I really like the changes to empire sprawl too, and it'll be interesting to see if the job and building slot tax of maintaining administrative capacity has a noticeable impact on how I plan my economy. It at least looks like you won't need the admin building on every planet to keep up, but it was only 50 years into the game so that may change, especially once you start getting ecumenopoleis and ring worlds.
Post by: Greiger on March 19, 2020, 01:31:37 am
I'm hoping that I'll get research to fix that gateway I have so I can fly off somewhere else and find someone to kill that does not love me. Its like I'm a homicidal lizard Bob Ross. Except instead of paint I murder, and I have nothing to murder, because I only murder people who don't love me, and the lizard afro is too adorable to not love.
Post by: E. Albright on March 19, 2020, 09:01:45 am
Post by: Iceblaster on March 19, 2020, 09:11:34 am
Post by: Broseph Stalin on March 19, 2020, 12:29:45 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on March 19, 2020, 04:09:44 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on March 19, 2020, 04:48:05 pm
Post by: Kanil on March 19, 2020, 05:32:52 pm
Post by: Telgin on March 19, 2020, 06:02:28 pm
Every single update involves a significant change/overhaul to sectors&territory it's just surreal at this point.
Wait, did they change something this time? Or do you means just removing the cohesion mechanic?
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 19, 2020, 07:12:25 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on March 20, 2020, 02:56:26 am
It's 2373 and things have gone well. The The Federation has 6 member states including the United Nations of Earth. At this penultimate level, and with several conflicting ethos, there's a significant cohesion drain. 1 envoy from each state is enough to counteract that though. I have to send more envoys whenever we gain (or lose) a member due to the one-time hits, but that's very temporary. The rest of the time my envoys are dealing with the Galactic Community, hehe...
Short history: The UNE regained contact with the Commonwealth of Man and, thanks to diplomacy and "not being filthy xenos", had a peaceful relationship. Eventually the UNE federated with a pair of militarist empires, one of which was xenophile too! That one eventually adopted egalitarianism, becoming Democratic Crusaders. They were very annoyed when we invited an authoritarian trade league in, but were outvoted. (Neat trick - to get these Peaceful Traders to join, I had to set my war policy to defensive. Ten years later I changed it back. They're not even pacifists, and often vote in support of subjugation wars... silly birds).
Sadly the Commonwealth of Man wanted nothing to do with this, and even refused association status. Some nearby *barbaric despoilers* were far more cooperative, though they had misgivings about being more than associates. Suddenly "honorbound warriors" cut a swath through the Commonwealth, taking territory right up to Deneb itself! This was obviously unacceptable, but what could we do?
Oh right, unrestricted warfare... I claimed and retook the territory for Humanity (And Pals). Huzzah!
...and then since the Commonwealth clearly couldn't survive on its own, probably due to their unenlightened bigotry, I "offered" them vassalage. Then "insisted". This ended up taking two wars by accident. The Commonwealth of Man was now merely Deneb, while their other colony was a much more agreeable new "state" with a forgettable name. (I later vassalized the aggressor xenos as well, mostly to save them from the barbarians)
To bring this back to new mechanics, all these new mini-states were both a curse and a blessing. Each absorption caused The Federation a cohesion hit, but they each had their own envoy pools and were willing to contribute, so it worked out long-term. Even with all the diverse ethics. Until eventually the barbaric despoilers, to my surprise, seemed ready to sign up as The Federation members! The only thing was that they couldn't abide the Commonwealth-splinter on Rixin. The xenophobic Commonwealth itself? Perfectly fine, but those other ones, no way.
Turns out that just as you can bring vassals into a federation without a vote (aside from a general policy toggle which may have started active) you can also absorb them. I don't generally do that to vassals, but... 2 years of bureaucracy later, the barbaric despoilers happily joined us... I'm not questioning it! The The Federation now controlled a bit more than half the galaxy. And our greatest threat was a fairly nice empire of Federation Builders on the other side of the core, an advanced start which formed a powerful federation but seemed completely uninterested in war, even on neighboring states. I can respect that!
So I screwed around with economics for about a hundred years. I can't believe I picked the Xeno-Compatibility perk *and* evolution ascension... probably should have gone psionic, ugh. All the rainbow demographic circles are nice though, and hybrids are literally better. But long story short it was a prosperous golden age.
Except I kept seeing half-humans on the slave market >:(
I bought a *lot* of slaves with my stupidly strong economy, but I'm pretty sure they were derpily migrating away. To my authoritarian federation partner. IT KEEPS HAPPENING and this time it was my fault for voting for open borders in The Federation. No, I couldn't fix this with immigration controls. Even if I could rescue every human-hybrid, what good would that do? I needed to save *everyone*.
Spoiler: I love democracy. What? I'm serious (click to show/hide)
Apparently that's not agreeable to them, so let's see if they're willing to implement universal social welfare~ That's right, decent conditions aren't decent enough once this passes. *Academic Privilege* isn't nice either (it's pretty stratified TBH). And no slavery of any kind now, duhh.
How am I pulling this off, though? Mostly pops and tech. Those scores are more valuable in my galactic community because we've passed bills which encourage research and civil rights. Along with environmental bills which weaken the economic lobby, and warcrime legislation which apparently weaken the threat of military force.
also I gave that trade union, the biggest opponent who stands to lose their entire slave-based economy on this, 340 dark matter for 10 favors. They cost 25 influence each to cash in, but each one seemed to counteract 10% of their vote. I hope the dark matter keeps them cold at night! Slaver fu-
heh, I almost forgot they're in my Federation. Doesn't really matter though - from what I've read, this is going to screw over the entire galaxy XD Just kinda amusing that they're *not even upset with me*, we're in the top "excellent" relations tier.
At this stage they *can* give all their pops Social Welfare (yep, even authoritarians!) if they don't like the sanctions. Sanctions I will be ramping up. They don't even have the slavery civic so they don't have to reform, just stop enslaving xenos by species. It's the next and final stage that's actually unreasonable, requiring Utopian Abundance :D Or Shared Burdens heh, or mandatory pampering. Oooooor, and I guess this would *technically* work without requiring an ethics shift - Chemical Bliss :P
*fondly regards rainbow demographic pies as the galaxy falls apart*
Fakedit: The war I'm in is actually thanks to those barbaric despoilers - they wanted to pillage the other Federation for no reason and everyone voted yes. Probably... to get more slaves. Their worlds are covered in ruins and I have to wonder if it's from me buying my dunkass pops back en masse.
my federation is awful
they deserve whatever crisis puts this doomed galaxy out of its misery
Edit:
Spoiler: BALLS (click to show/hide)
Post by: Blastbeard on March 20, 2020, 09:40:10 am
Speaking of everyone's favorite assistant, the voice actor isn't sounding too good. He sounds sick in the voice clip about empire sprawl. Hope they're alright.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 20, 2020, 11:27:07 am
I should have built up the authority of the galactic community first by helping the sanction laws stack up. But I kinda did my best, the process is just very slow. I don't think we wasted many sessions on failed votes, and it's already 2379. Guess the midgame crisis hasn't fired yet though (unless you count me lel) so there's still time.
Post by: Cruxador on March 20, 2020, 12:33:27 pm
I normally play xenophobic spiritualists with an imperial government. Since this is the diplomacy update, I chose to play xenophiles instead, and to go egalitarian and democracy for the sake of additional variety. Since the game does the thing it does, there's only one other xenophile in the whole galaxy, too far away to be diplomatically relevant, but it's fine since my diplo bonuses and envoys let me do most of what I want.
I begin doing the usual game start stuff, and right off the bat, a bit spiritualist faction forms for no apparent reason. Luckily, they're easy to keep happy. They required me to ban robots, but that's worth it since by this point I haven't unlocked them anyway, so it's worth it for the influence, which is harshly gating my expansion rate. I go through the usual early game of exploring and claiming systems. One of the first things that happens, of narrative relevance, is that I get a big Zro archaeology chain which I won't spoil, but it's long enough that it's a recurring theme through this arc of the game, and I get invested in it. I'd say more except this is hand-made content and I suspect there's pretty limited variation. Anyway, it eventually ends and together with a psychic ocean thing, jump starts me into psi stuff and gives me things that enhance the psionic ascension a bit. I decide to follow the emerging narrative that the game made. Through normal shroud events, one of my scientists becomes the chosen one. Cool, I figure. A scientist with some nice bonuses and immortality will be perfect for dealing with the high level anomalies I've left lying around.
Then I get an event that, if I choose the option, makes him god-emperor and gives me new government/civics to match. Since the game has been going that way anyway, I follow the narrative. It seems I've returned to the "right" way to play. Only difference from usual is that now my god emperor is immortal and really is as close to divine as I think it's possible to get in this game.
And that's where I left it last night.
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 20, 2020, 12:53:12 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on March 20, 2020, 08:59:01 pm
Guess the midgame crisis hasn't fired yet though (unless you count me lel) so there's still time.A purely political midgame crisis would be hilarious.
Post by: Telgin on March 20, 2020, 11:31:49 pm
Though I was thinking things more like plagues or economic depressions, but I'm sure there are ways to make a political crisis a thing. If there was support for multiple galactic communities, having it fracture could be an idea.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 20, 2020, 11:36:07 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on March 21, 2020, 01:30:13 am
The game's noncombat systems don't have the meat to reliably be interesting at the best of times. I'm not sure they can handle being the big focus of the game for a bit.
Post by: Sartain on March 21, 2020, 04:28:14 am
There is, but it'd mostly be obnoxious or irrelevant. You can solve a military threat by building more ships, taking advantageous fights, and maybe making alliances. You can solve an economic crisis by... making more money, I guess? You can solve a political crisis by... uh... making factions happier?
The game's noncombat systems don't have the meat to reliably be interesting at the best of times. I'm not sure they can handle being the big focus of the game for a bit.
Well making numbers up or there will be consequences like say, pops dying from pops or becoming criminal or buildings going to ruin or whatnot could be a decent distraction from making numbers go up because making numbers go up is the premise of the game :)
With the new galactic community feature you could even have stuff like galactic resolutions about dedicating resources to eradicating that pesky Javorian Pox outbreak or enforcing economic austerity policies and such, to handle non-combat crisises
Edit: Sometimes this game really manages some fun little meta-narratives. Starting a Scion game as an alternate Earth (militant, xenophile, egalitarian Citizen Republic) where the Sol system is under the protection of a materialist Fallen Empire. Maybe 10 years into the game my Overlord offers me a level 7 admiral because, paraphrased, apparently they have a weirdo who wants to try playing with the Humans. So Tupra Wek serves a stint as admiral in the navy, and then it's election time... As always I don't bother getting involved with elections and apparently Tupra Wek did such good work eradicating the Fist of God cult that he is elected Consul of the Citizen Alliance of Terra. I feel like we may have conned by our Overlord :D
Post by: Rolan7 on March 21, 2020, 10:31:48 pm
I switched tacks to a new start: Militarist xenophobe. Very unusual for me, but it's because I'm trying Voidborn. I also, don't @ me, created a race of jerkass lithoids and forced them to spawn. You see, my last game drove home that all resources are effectively infinite... except minerals. Minerals were fluctuating between 4-5 energy on the market even when I wasn't buying any myself.
But there is one limitless source of minerals in the game, and I don't mean black holes: using lithoids as livestock. Time to be the monsters for once 8)
I chose a kinda human-reticulan hybrid portrait and called my group the Laputans, a reference to the UFO Aftermath series of xcom-like games. The second game had a faction of humans who were forcibly displaced by Reticulans onto floating space stations called Laputa as they... to make a long story short, "terraformed" Earth. That game was about a later generation of Laputans rediscovering Earth in the wake of the Reticulans going mysteriously and suddenly braindead.
This is a little different in that we're displaced (and somewhat hybridized such that we won't recognize any Humans who happen to exist) but far from Sol. I named the star Ares and chose Latin names, then named the home planet Sidonia because I'm an uncultured rube who got confused by the suggested name (Sildonia). (It's supposed to be Cydonia, like the Mars location in XCOM 1).
Anyway, it's going pretty well in 2219 - already conquered a neighbor for those precious landbound mineral slaves! I also share a border with another Advanced Start despite turning that shit off, presumably because they have a Lost Colony somewhere. annoying.
Edit: I forgot how tough it is to occupy planets instead of just vassalizing empires. It's particularly tough since my own race has 0% habitability, so sending them to be rulers (which increases stability due to their political power) is, frankly, expensive. They even eat twice as much. I'm going to headcanon that as various forms of alcohol, which they suck in through their fancy hazmat suits. It's that show Colony up in here.
On the plus side these unfortunates were Mechanists (excellent choice!), and their robots are now unequivocally mine. That's a little disturbing to think about, so I won't! Besides, they're too simple to use as enforcers (for now).
Edit2: Quirk of the Void Dweller trait - it's actually two traits, depending on whether the pop is on a habitat or not. Either the +15% specialist/worker production, or the -60% growth. As a consequence, Void Dwellers forced to live on planets are literally a subspecies - which means different rights can be applied to them. Not sure how to use that yet, but it's interesting. I wish I could give mine Stratified Society rights since they're almost all rulers, which would increase their political power considerably (and make them happier). Giving them Utopian Abundance would make them happier, but practically remove their political power (and I'm not egalitarian for once).
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 23, 2020, 02:21:46 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 23, 2020, 02:33:24 pm
Hey what if you did Syncretic Evolution, made em' Lithoids, then made them livestock?I think you get minerals from them
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 23, 2020, 02:53:24 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/uPzSrW1.png)
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 23, 2020, 02:56:12 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 23, 2020, 02:58:38 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 23, 2020, 03:21:45 pm
Quote
basically locked to 'mining'
Yeah you're right, that is basically the effect, isn't it? Hmph.
Post by: IronyOwl on March 23, 2020, 04:46:31 pm
I mean, you still get the bonus points for being a monster.Quotebasically locked to 'mining'
Yeah you're right, that is basically the effect, isn't it? Hmph.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 23, 2020, 05:35:11 pm
Also jeez managing captured pops is just as difficult as I remember. Made worse because my primary species is both xenophobic and immuno-suppressed. Even though the species I conquered first is now over their "recently conquered" -20%, they'll always be limited to Residence citizenship. That's a -10% happiness, but also -50% political power. Generally helpful, but very counterproductive to my plan of using them as "lieutenants". The best course appears to be dropping a couple unlucky voidborn on each planet to rule it, tanking the costs of 0% habitability in exchange for their stabilizing political power. I wonder if robots might eventually serve this role, but I'm betting that xenophobes can't even grant robots full citizenship.
Heh, this way of playing is so alien to me. Everyone's so happy in my egalitarian runs. I think I need slave processing facilities ASAP- I can't yet afford to enslave these xenos, my grip is tenuous enough already.
But I did secure the lithoid pops, thanks to my Federation allies! Couldn't have done it without them - I think I'll avoid enslaving their migrants, because that feels like a dick move even for xenophobes. (I will never not be upset that the AI do this constantly).
Having 12 pops basically locked to 'mining' would be a bit of a rocky (no pun intended) start but I'd think it would be manageable. I can think of better ways to start though.I cannot yet report on lithoid livestock but it appears to have advantages over miners. For one thing livestock, as slaves, have very little consumer good cost and .75 amenities. Also .25 housing per livestock. This isn't as important in early-game, but surely adds up later. Same with the fact that they don't require districts. I considered taking Arcology Project despite being Voidborn just because of how unimportant districts are going to be.
Production is trickier to figure until I actually enslave these rocks, but the main advantage is that they require very little for what they produce. They can also summon these minerals on habitats or ringworlds, which is amusingly nonsensical :P
What I'm pondering next, and haven't been able to find an answer for, is: does the Processing purge give minerals too?
Because it sounds like Processing is still broken if you dedicate a world to it, since the benefit is based on all the pops but the rate of death is flat.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 23, 2020, 06:00:33 pm
Just ship em off for snacks. Wonder how many slave worlds it would take to break even?
Post by: Rolan7 on March 23, 2020, 06:24:07 pm
+6 mining districts
-6 agriculture districts
... THEN +6 MAX DISTRICTS, WHAT
Sure it applies a -50% habitability to the world, but that merely cancels out the natural +50% all lithoids get. Your Lavos run looks like the way to go!
Post by: Telgin on March 23, 2020, 07:00:01 pm
I wonder if robots might eventually serve this role, but I'm betting that xenophobes can't even grant robots full citizenship.
Pretty sure they can't. I know that they can still give them social welfare living standards if they're synths, but they can't give them the status to become leaders. I think that means residence citizenship, and no option to make them full citizens. I'm guessing if you played xenophobic egalitarians you could also give them utopian abundance living standards, but I've never tested that.
At least I haven't seen any events lately where xenophobe pops get mad that there are robots of their own design on the same planet because they're a different species. That used to trigger every game I played xenophobes.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 23, 2020, 07:58:03 pm
OH DUN maybe you looked this up but I noticed that the lithoid homeworld has that "massive crater" feature, and it's kinda amazing!
+6 mining districts
-6 agriculture districts
... THEN +6 MAX DISTRICTS, WHAT
Sure it applies a -50% habitability to the world, but that merely cancels out the natural +50% all lithoids get. Your Lavos run looks like the way to go!
:[ ]
That sounds amazingggg. Habitability can be canceled out by research or even the adaptability tree, depending. Thanks for the info.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 23, 2020, 11:53:33 pm
-Ring world start
-Lithoids, Crystal shedding, Natural Engineers, Strong, Unruly
-Radical Materialist, Pacifist; Democratic, Technocracy and Something Else
The ring world obviously provides no minerals, but also the starting district is a useless farming one, even if your species doesn't eat. Some of the food went into a bio-reactor, while the rest I dumped into the market. Worse still the neighboring habitable worlds were tropical ones with very little mining districts. Ended up taking a small arctic one, with only 65% habitability due to low gravity but it had like 8 mining slots to eat. What helped was getting basic robot tech super early, and my first governor getting the landscaping trait which makes clearing blockers cheaper and faster.
The economy was kinda shit until I could replace that farm district for a city one and later a research one as well. Problem is now there's like 20+ jobs open and lithoid pop growth won't fill that anytime soon. A migration treaty's fixing that a bit but its not great.
A big problem now is influence. In spite of being materialist/pacifist, 25% of the rock guys want to take over the galaxy for whatever reason. Getting only like 2 inf per month really slows down expansion.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 24, 2020, 08:42:29 am
-Lithoids, Crystal shedding, Natural Engineers, Strong, Unruly
In spite of being materialist/pacifist, 25% of the rock guys want to take over the galaxy for whatever reason. Getting only like 2 inf per month really slows down expansion.
The strong trait gives pops a (ahem) strong bias towards militarist ethics and having strong pops boosts the militarist ethic draw for the empire. That could be part of the problem?
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 24, 2020, 09:49:09 am
-Lithoids, Crystal shedding, Natural Engineers, Strong, UnrulyIn spite of being materialist/pacifist, 25% of the rock guys want to take over the galaxy for whatever reason. Getting only like 2 inf per month really slows down expansion.
The strong trait gives pops a (ahem) strong bias towards militarist ethics and having strong pops boosts the militarist ethic draw for the empire. That could be part of the problem?
Probably. Honestly I thought it was because I share a northern border with Driven Assimilaters, and my pops are going "shouldn't we deal with that".
Post by: Dostoevsky on March 24, 2020, 01:33:20 pm
What would you all say are the best / most important mods at this point? Or is playing vanilla more viable?
Post by: LoSboccacc on March 24, 2020, 06:53:07 pm
Post by: Cruxador on March 24, 2020, 07:02:48 pm
I have not played Stellaris in... a long time. Since 2.0, I think? Back then I played with a bunch of mods, including the AlphaMod series. Now that diplomacy sounds like it's more of an actual thing, interested in going back to it.Depends what you mean by viable. It's a bit less of a mess in terms of playability but it still goes to shit at a certain point. In terms of being tremendously boring, the archaeology and the new federation stuff both help a ot.
What would you all say are the best / most important mods at this point? Or is playing vanilla more viable?
another question is like to add how much of the new goodies do you get without the actual federation dlc?You basically get every mechanic for free but almost all the content is paid. However, stuff that had a form available either for free or in a previous DLC is still accessed the same way, even if it was overhauled. So a generic federation under the new mechanics uses the new much deeper system with all the new features corresponding to it, but if you want other types of federation, you have to pay. (Or encounter a used copy that nobody wanted, or whatever euphemism for acquiring without paying that you prefer).
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 24, 2020, 07:40:33 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on March 24, 2020, 08:02:50 pm
https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Empire#Origin
I was surprised that a few (like Syncretic) require Utopia, but I take Utopia for granted at this point. The Federation DLC grants the most of course, including Doomsday heh.
Post by: Cruxador on March 25, 2020, 11:16:19 am
I think most of the origins aren't tied to Federations, but might require other relevant DLCs to have. All the ones that were civics are now origins. So base game you get lost colony and I assume life seeded and syncretic.Most origins are tied to the same DLC that granted them before they were turned into origins.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 25, 2020, 11:22:29 am
I think most of the origins aren't tied to Federations, but might require other relevant DLCs to have. All the ones that were civics are now origins. So base game you get lost colony and I assume life seeded and syncretic.Most origins are tied to the same DLC that granted them before they were turned into origins.
Well, that's what I meant by 'other relevant DLCs'.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 25, 2020, 12:00:56 pm
I kept starting new games and wondering why I was behind the AI in the first 50 years; oh right, most of them have an extra 10+ years of pop growth than I do.
Post by: Orb on March 25, 2020, 02:25:03 pm
You get 2.7x as much population growth (3 planet start, -10% population growth trait for Voidborne).
Your pops produce bonus resources.
You can produce research districts right off the bat (massive tech lead at the start). You can also invest in cultural districts for a unity lead.
...but you have to spend 3000 alloys + a colony ship every time you want to expand. So you start off stronger but have a slower expansion rate early on.
Mid game though when you have 100+ alloys surplus your expansion rate becomes pretty insane.
Post by: Shooer on March 25, 2020, 04:43:34 pm
The Lithoid one though, home world gets +6 districts +6 mine and -6 agri and -50% hab for everyone else. Also can make colony ships that don't take any Alloys, supposed to take more minerals and put two buried lithoids (1000 minerals and get a pop) and add the same -50% hab.
A Lithoid hivemind with the lithoid origin get special colony ships that cost only 500 minerals that give bonuses for you. Kind of glad the meteorite colony ship doesn't add the +6 district to colonized worlds, would just get out of hand. Now to see if anything special happens when I use them to colonize relic worlds and orbital habitats.
Post by: Greiger on March 25, 2020, 05:32:57 pm
Voidborne is pretty strong if you play your cards right.
You get 2.7x as much population growth (3 planet start, -10% population growth trait for Voidborne).
Your pops produce bonus resources.
You can produce research districts right off the bat (massive tech lead at the start). You can also invest in cultural districts for a unity lead.
...but you have to spend 3000 alloys + a colony ship every time you want to expand. So you start off stronger but have a slower expansion rate early on.
Mid game though when you have 100+ alloys surplus your expansion rate becomes pretty insane.
My first game with the new expansion was voidborne. If you have a nearby friendly ally you can set up migration treaties really easily and then you can just use the migrated race to populate planets. I'm surrounded by super friendly races and even though I started voidborne I could colonize every planet type I know of. Lowest habitability I saw was 70% and that was a tomb world. That was before I even had fusion.
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 25, 2020, 10:57:54 pm
And then fanatical purifiers next door. On highest difficulty. D:
Post by: Great Order on March 26, 2020, 11:55:33 am
Gah. Started as voidborne autocratic criminals, with long-term intentions to enslave and cyborgise. Found a size 25 relic world nearby (still 70% hab regardless of pop traitss, which is broken imo) and the cybrex event chain. Great systems all around, was swimming in minerals 20 years in.Now that federations aren't guaranteed to take fleet power, I find them much more useful for mutual defence. Especially if I can dominate the power rankings later on, change the votes to weight, then push through every reform that makes me perpetual ruler of a federation filled with pseudo-vassals. And then when I'm fed up with that, I can leave and splatter it.
And then fanatical purifiers next door. On highest difficulty. D:
Post by: EuchreJack on March 26, 2020, 12:03:06 pm
One interesting thing I've noticed: from an early-game perspective, most of the origins are inferior to Prosperous Unification or Syncretic Evolution. Having additional pops makes your economy much stronger in the beginning, and alloys you to have more alloys and tech earlier than someone with a feature that can't be used until mid or late game.
I kept starting new games and wondering why I was behind the AI in the first 50 years; oh right, most of them have an extra 10+ years of pop growth than I do.
Having your home planet fill up with stupid people does however have some disadvantages...
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 26, 2020, 12:08:01 pm
One interesting thing I've noticed: from an early-game perspective, most of the origins are inferior to Prosperous Unification or Syncretic Evolution. Having additional pops makes your economy much stronger in the beginning, and alloys you to have more alloys and tech earlier than someone with a feature that can't be used until mid or late game.
I kept starting new games and wondering why I was behind the AI in the first 50 years; oh right, most of them have an extra 10+ years of pop growth than I do.
Having your home planet fill up with stupid people does however have some disadvantages...
this is a thing that you control. why would you fill it up with stupid people?
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 26, 2020, 12:34:12 pm
One interesting thing I've noticed: from an early-game perspective, most of the origins are inferior to Prosperous Unification or Syncretic Evolution. Having additional pops makes your economy much stronger in the beginning, and alloys you to have more alloys and tech earlier than someone with a feature that can't be used until mid or late game.
I kept starting new games and wondering why I was behind the AI in the first 50 years; oh right, most of them have an extra 10+ years of pop growth than I do.
Having your home planet fill up with stupid people does however have some disadvantages...
Pull a Hitchhiker's Guide and dump them all on another planet.
Post by: Telgin on March 26, 2020, 01:03:13 pm
I've read about releasing a vassal and just forming a federation with them, which is tempting, though I've never tried it. How does that work? Can you release a sector as a vassal or something?
Post by: Shooer on March 26, 2020, 01:09:02 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 26, 2020, 01:22:34 pm
Meanwhile, I'm trying to form a federation to test out the new mechanics, but nobody wants to form one with me. Apparently, having a policy of no wars of aggression is a kiss of death when it comes to building a federation, with a -50 acceptance modifier for everyone I've checked...
I've read about releasing a vassal and just forming a federation with them, which is tempting, though I've never tried it. How does that work? Can you release a sector as a vassal or something?
It's tough because the game weights your neighbors towards different ethos.
If you just want to test the new mechanics, can you use one of the Federation origins?
Post by: E. Albright on March 26, 2020, 02:49:33 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on March 26, 2020, 02:56:24 pm
Meanwhile, I'm trying to form a federation to test out the new mechanics, but nobody wants to form one with me. Apparently, having a policy of no wars of aggression is a kiss of death when it comes to building a federation, with a -50 acceptance modifier for everyone I've checked...Works the other direction too, though as a non-pacifist you can just set your policy to forbid wars of aggression then change it back ten years later. The neighbors being weighted towards opposing you can suck, but envoys go a long way to fixing any relation hits... but that -50 Federation acceptance is virtually a dealbreaker, yeah.
I've read about releasing a vassal and just forming a federation with them, which is tempting, though I've never tried it. How does that work? Can you release a sector as a vassal or something?
I used to release sectors fairly often, particularly if I was otherwise painting the map. They remain as a vassal but stop taking up administrative cap, and there's less headache with long trade routes pre-gateways. That's less useful now since spamming administrative offices is fairly easy. Vassals can be in your federation, but I kinda doubt you can start one with them, so you may have to release them from vassalage as well. It sounds like a decent plan though, particularly since they'll love you and have your ethics. Federations level up slowly so starting them ASAP is useful. Vassals also keep your traditions, so you can make sure they have Entente Coordination before you spin them off. Though it'll be a while before your federation can actually have a fleet at all.
Post by: Telgin on March 26, 2020, 03:10:55 pm
I do have envoys assigned to the empires I was interested in forming federations with, but it just didn't make enough of a difference. My overall relations were at like +730 or so, so that can't go much higher.
Post by: Shooer on March 26, 2020, 04:33:28 pm
Lithoids: "Hold my molten sulfur"
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So we might have put a hole in the side, we can still live on it.
Having a lot of fun as a empathic Lithoid hive. Slowly making everyone love we, convincing everyone they need greater sanctions that hurt everyone else. Right now if your fleet is too small you research slower and produce less.
Post by: EuchreJack on March 26, 2020, 06:06:06 pm
Meanwhile, I'm trying to form a federation to test out the new mechanics, but nobody wants to form one with me. Apparently, having a policy of no wars of aggression is a kiss of death when it comes to building a federation, with a -50 acceptance modifier for everyone I've checked...
I've read about releasing a vassal and just forming a federation with them, which is tempting, though I've never tried it. How does that work? Can you release a sector as a vassal or something?
It's tough because the game weights your neighbors towards different ethos.
If you just want to test the new mechanics, can you use one of the Federation origins?
Hm, so I could probably achieve Galactic Peace by playing as a Xenophobic Militaristic Authoritarian. The peaceful loving hippies will all join against me, I push the opposition parties, and then flip and join the federation that was formed to thwart me. There shall be peace in our time!
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 27, 2020, 01:04:02 pm
Post by: Telgin on March 28, 2020, 11:07:01 pm
First of all, I agree with the general sentiment that it's kind of stupid that it's an edict instead of a policy in the first place, and that you have to unlock it through the galactic community instead of it just being a thing specific ethics are allowed to do.
Second, resettling pops will ruin buildings on the planets they leave.
Third, you can't turn the edict off once it's on. So I'm stuck with this happening for 24 game years.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 28, 2020, 11:12:55 pm
What I wanted was a one time action to have pops redistribute instantly without my micromanagement.
I would have paid the credits, I just didn't want to do all that clicking.
Post by: Telgin on March 29, 2020, 12:55:05 am
It appears that I had maybe 10-20 pops out of about 2000 move over the course of about 5 years. Since I didn't have very many planets with open jobs that doesn't overly surprise me, but since I'd heard the same about people saying it didn't do anything I was too surprised that any migrated at all.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 30, 2020, 01:54:20 pm
Construction ship: "We've built a grand habitat. A perfectly sealed environment for almost all life to live and thrive."
Lithoids: "Hold my molten sulfur"Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So we might have put a hole in the side, we can still live on it.
Having a lot of fun as a empathic Lithoid hive. Slowly making everyone love we, convincing everyone they need greater sanctions that hurt everyone else. Right now if your fleet is too small you research slower and produce less.
This made me laugh my ass off. Is 50% habitability the price of having an asteroid-sized hole in your space dome venting atmosphere at all times?
Post by: Telgin on March 30, 2020, 07:11:03 pm
Post by: Blastbeard on March 30, 2020, 07:58:16 pm
In space, no-one can hear you REEEEEEEEEE
Is anybody else seeing the galactic community caught in an endless loop of minor sanctions? I'm seeing one empire propose minor sanctions, then another proposes the same sanctions a few sessions later, bogging down the entire cycle. I keep trying to bury the motion and promote other stuff, but these assholes just aren't having it. It's 2400 and we still haven't formed the galactic council because apparently passing minor economic sanctions for the ninetieth time is more important. I was hoping to be a good guy this playthrough, but if the council isn't formed by 2420 and I'm not on it, I'm just going to bust out a planet cracker and go ham on these idiots.
Post by: Iceblaster on March 30, 2020, 08:59:48 pm
fun
Post by: Radsoc on March 30, 2020, 11:20:18 pm
Post by: Telgin on March 31, 2020, 08:53:33 am
Regarding bugs, I see that the crisis purging habitats is still janky. I think the pops are actually dying, but they aren't showing as undesirables or in decline. AI empires (and I assume players) are still able to resettle pops to planets occupied by the crisis too, so the only way I can tell the pops are dying is by looking at the empire's total pop count going down.
Voidborne can settle on gaia worlds just fine, apart from a malus to pop growth speed. First time I played that origin, I was lucky enough to get two systems with gaia worlds right next to each other. Unfortunately, the larger of the two was claimed as a holy world by the spiritualist fallen empire. Despite said empire being almost halfway across the galaxy.
In space, no-one can hear you REEEEEEEEEE
So the pop growth penalty still applies? That's what I was curious about, since it looks like they actually swap traits when on a planet instead of just having a flat habitability, which in turn prevents you from just using gaia worlds or ring worlds to bypass the limitations.
Quote
Is anybody else seeing the galactic community caught in an endless loop of minor sanctions? I'm seeing one empire propose minor sanctions, then another proposes the same sanctions a few sessions later, bogging down the entire cycle. I keep trying to bury the motion and promote other stuff, but these assholes just aren't having it. It's 2400 and we still haven't formed the galactic council because apparently passing minor economic sanctions for the ninetieth time is more important. I was hoping to be a good guy this playthrough, but if the council isn't formed by 2420 and I'm not on it, I'm just going to bust out a planet cracker and go ham on these idiots.
I've heard others report this but haven't seen it myself. So far, the dumbest thing I've seen is the AI telling me that the Contingency wasn't worth being afraid of, with all but 2 other empires in the whole galaxy voting against making it a galactic priority. I narrowly lost the vote since I have like half of the diplomatic weight in the galaxy, but it was still amusing and frustrating. I've decided to let the Contingency eat some of them to see if they change their tune.
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 31, 2020, 09:52:10 am
So the pop growth penalty still applies? That's what I was curious about, since it looks like they actually swap traits when on a planet instead of just having a flat habitability, which in turn prevents you from just using gaia worlds or ring worlds to bypass the limitations.My experience so far was that the game actively tries to give you bypasses for those limitations. All you really need is one migration treaty, or one conquered planet (e.g. primitives), or even nothing at all since there's an event that fires when you have pops on very low habitability planets resulting in your pops self-gene modifying.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 31, 2020, 10:14:08 am
All this breaks down if it's overthought too much, of course. Just loose headcanons to pick from.
My voidborn run had awful economic difficulties about 20-40 years in, even after conquering and enslaving my only neighbor (I started in a pocket behind a marauder clan). I'm not totally sure why, but had plenty of mineral income but was struggling for credits and commercial goods. I think I just didn't have enough pops on-habitat to get all the building slots I wanted. What fixed that was domestic servitude. The huge income of minerals and food from enslaved planets helped a lot (pseudo-thrall worlds, I really want that tech) but flooding my worlds and habitats with unemployed "servants" gave me high amenities across the board, *and* the raw population numbers to build more refineries and factories for my voidborn to work. The servants take very little housing or upkeep, and the voidborn specialists get a nice production bonus.
I currently have about twice as many slaves as voidborn, but only a few of my voidborn are mere workers. I have to keep 2-4 on each slave world to serve as rulers (including noble) and enforcers, tanking the consumer goods upkeep (I'm swimming in more food than I can use). Fortunately habitability doesn't affect happiness so these few elite basically make the whole planet "happy". It does affect growth rate, on top of the -60% from being on a planet at all, but fortunately it seems to reliably choose the slave pops to grow instead. Meanwhile it looks like I'll need to manually set population growth on my habitats to get more voidborn, as slave pops are growing there too like half the time.
Amusing quirk which was my original reason for posting: Despite having no contact with the galactic community, I got a notification when the galactic council was forming. The notification even showed me the top three empires, their names and diplomatic weight. Imagine my joy to see that my custom lithoid race is alive and well!
Project: infinite minerals is good to go~
They're actually the most influential empire in the galaxy, but I'm basically tied (if not for the Isolationist stance penalty). Considering I'm currently popping out habitats almost at pace with my influence gain, AKA booming at an insane rate for 2275, I feel ready to be the midgame crisis in a few decades~
(I wonder if I can bumrush a science ship past this wall of raiders, but it wouldn't help too much. Unless I took Nihilistic Acquisition and got a fleet through to steal a lithoid pop... that would be very useful indeed. Ooh, or just bought one on the slave market if that's an option! Plus I could totally sabotage the galactic community as a council member, hehe)
Interesting, I wonder how that works for voidborn. The event (https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/A_New_Species) changes climate preference, so I wonder if the voidborn-on-planet and voidborn-off-planet traits stick around or are tied to habitat preference. I'm guessing the latter, though maybe I'll find out once I research Glandular Acclimatization for the ability to change climate preference manually.So the pop growth penalty still applies? That's what I was curious about, since it looks like they actually swap traits when on a planet instead of just having a flat habitability, which in turn prevents you from just using gaia worlds or ring worlds to bypass the limitations.My experience so far was that the game actively tries to give you bypasses for those limitations. All you really need is one migration treaty, or one conquered planet (e.g. primitives), or even nothing at all since there's an event that fires when you have pops on very low habitability planets resulting in your pops self-gene modifying.
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 31, 2020, 10:25:39 am
Interesting, I wonder how that works for voidborn. The event (https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/A_New_Species) changes climate preference, so I wonder if the voidborn-on-planet and voidborn-off-planet traits stick around or are tied to habitat preference. I'm guessing the latter, though maybe I'll find out once I research Glandular Acclimatization for the ability to change climate preference manually.They just lose the voidborn preference for whatever climate it fired on. It's just a normal boring species.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on March 31, 2020, 04:20:32 pm
If I want to make an ethically aligned vassal it makes no sense that I'm obligated to release the entire sector which is made automatically from every system in four jumps. Instead I have to make a strategic habitat or quasi-inhabitable colony far enough away that it doesn't get anything I want to keep then trade the systems I wanted to give them in the first place.
Also jobs, can we please, in the name of all that is holy get the ability to manually assign pops to jobs? Almost every crime problem I've ever had has been the result of an empty precinct on a full world.
Similar complaint, Pop demotion sucks. I abandoned a world and made the mistake of resettling leaders first. That meant I evacuated a leader, and freed up a leader level job, that caused a bunch of miners to immediately become rulers before they too were resettled. The end result was massive unemployment on the other world because 27 pops had grown accustomed to being members of the aristocracy after only a second of exposure and apparently began holding up signs outside the understaffed specialist buildings that read "will work for 1%er status."
Post by: Cruxador on March 31, 2020, 05:32:37 pm
Also jobs, can we please, in the name of all that is holy get the ability to manually assign pops to jobs? Almost every crime problem I've ever had has been the result of an empty precinct on a full world.You can both restrict people from working some jobs, forcing them to work other jobs that would normally be lower priority, and you can mark jobs as high priority, forcing pops to fill those jobs ahead of all others.
Post by: Broseph Stalin on March 31, 2020, 07:09:10 pm
You can both restrict people from working some jobs, forcing them to work other jobs that would normally be lower priority, and you can mark jobs as high priority, forcing pops to fill those jobs ahead of all others.
Yes, and it's a terrible way to almost do the thing I want to do. If I could say X pop works Y job I could then ignore it until something cataclysmic happened. Under the current system I have to add back jobs when my population grows and stare at my prioritized enforcer job wondering if the gold marker is just a present to assuage my hurt feelings while the job remains vacant. It also provides no way for me to control which species work which jobs and while I'm sure there's a lot of good stuff under the hood around pop assignment I'd really appreciate veto power for when it fucks up or just when I find a certain mix more thematically appropriate.
Post by: Blastbeard on April 01, 2020, 02:19:54 am
That reminds of something odd I witnessed back then.
Spoiler: That time I 'tamed' a devouring swarm (click to show/hide)
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 01, 2020, 07:41:29 am
Post by: Blastbeard on April 01, 2020, 10:20:36 am
It's a real shame, if gestalt consciousnesses could mingle better with normal pops I'd consider playing them more often. Less like rogue servitors or assimilators and more like a normal empire that went for synthetic ascension. But nope, all we get are borg and zerg because we absolutely must stick to the tropes.
Post by: amjh on April 01, 2020, 12:00:05 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on April 01, 2020, 12:26:13 pm
Post by: E. Albright on April 01, 2020, 01:53:32 pm
Post by: Telgin on April 01, 2020, 02:15:57 pm
Also, now that I've mostly completed a game, I can say with some confidence that the AI is smarter in this version. It's still nowhere near a human who understands the game, but the empires I've looked at closely seem to be doing a much better job with their economy. The war AI also seems a lot smarter and organizes real death stacks now instead of just suiciding fleets one at a time at the enemy. I'm seeing the Contingency routinely group together 2M fleet power for its offensives, which I've never seen before.
Post by: IronyOwl on April 01, 2020, 07:53:21 pm
That's one thing I miss about the old system of pops and tiles. You could micromanage who did what just by dragging and dropping. Put the pops with the industrious trait on the mineral tiles, and so on.Yes... but it was obnoxious and pop growth/balance meant you couldn't reliably get the pops with the industrious trait to exist on the right world in the first place.
I count the removal of a 'fuck this guy in particular' button as a net loss.The loss of meaningless fuck you buttons is always tragic, yes.
Also, now that I've mostly completed a game, I can say with some confidence that the AI is smarter in this version. It's still nowhere near a human who understands the game, but the empires I've looked at closely seem to be doing a much better job with their economy. The war AI also seems a lot smarter and organizes real death stacks now instead of just suiciding fleets one at a time at the enemy. I'm seeing the Contingency routinely group together 2M fleet power for its offensives, which I've never seen before.My experience is "smart enough not to ram into my defensive station with the fleet nearby, dumb enough to go aaaaaaaaaaaaaall the way around letting me snap up territory while they're busy instead."
Post by: E. Albright on April 01, 2020, 08:09:08 pm
That is something I'll say for Ancient Relics: I've seen every anomaly a dozen times, but I'm still coming across dig sites I haven't seen.
The other thing about archeology, which may not be immediately obvious, is that some dig sites can have different outcomes from the same base site. That adds some longevity even once you've seen everything, just because you don't always know what the outcome will be this time around.
Post by: Teneb on April 02, 2020, 11:17:29 am
And boy the Hegemony start is good. Sure, you miss out on the two guaranteed colony worlds, but having two
Post by: Blastbeard on April 02, 2020, 11:31:05 am
Post by: Teneb on April 02, 2020, 11:39:10 am
Is it bad that I can look at the blank spots on that map and tell where the fallen empires, marauders, and leviathans are at a glance?The Marauders are the little black empire in the top-middle. The blank spot in the left side is indeed a fallen empire, xenophobes. The area near me in the bottom is just empty space that I am going to claim eventually.
Looks like one of my hegemony partners declared war on the Assimilators near them. I was planning on doing that, anyway, but wanted to upgrade my fleets first. Oh well.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 03, 2020, 11:43:40 am
Finally am having a successful game. I decided to re-make the very first empire I did when the game launched, since I had luck with that one, but also slap onto them the Hegemony start.
And boy the Hegemony start is good. Sure, you miss out on the two guaranteed colony worlds, but having twominionsfriends at your back more than make up for it. I've also used the hegemony CB to create new empires (with my ethics and who auto-join the hegemony) out of my non-complying neighbours and have just finished gobbling up a Determined Exterminator empire that was squatting in the SW corner of the galaxy. Just after taking out the Exterminators, the neighbouring megacorp that was being bullied by them spontaneously asked to become my vassals.
Yeah, Hegemony feels strong. And even if it's not strong, it's just much less hassle. Yes, I could conquer and manage all these planets myself, but I'll settle for just letting the AI run them and having it build 70% of its fleet power for me.
But I'm guessing it's legitimately strong, actually. Mostly because it leverages Admin very well, it's a very efficient method of conquest with the Hegemony CB. The federation fleets are also highly efficient, because they ignore fleet cap size and automatically use the best technology among all federation members.
Post by: Teneb on April 03, 2020, 12:13:07 pm
Yup.Finally am having a successful game. I decided to re-make the very first empire I did when the game launched, since I had luck with that one, but also slap onto them the Hegemony start.
And boy the Hegemony start is good. Sure, you miss out on the two guaranteed colony worlds, but having twominionsfriends at your back more than make up for it. I've also used the hegemony CB to create new empires (with my ethics and who auto-join the hegemony) out of my non-complying neighbours and have just finished gobbling up a Determined Exterminator empire that was squatting in the SW corner of the galaxy. Just after taking out the Exterminators, the neighbouring megacorp that was being bullied by them spontaneously asked to become my vassals.
Yeah, Hegemony feels strong. And even if it's not strong, it's just much less hassle. Yes, I could conquer and manage all these planets myself, but I'll settle for just letting the AI run them and having it build 70% of its fleet power for me.
But I'm guessing it's legitimately strong, actually. Mostly because it leverages Admin very well, it's a very efficient method of conquest with the Hegemony CB. The federation fleets are also highly efficient, because they ignore fleet cap size and automatically use the best technology among all federation members.
The latest development was the Khan arising... and promptly taking a wormhole into the former Exterminator's territory (now a bunch of my federation members that I released). And I can't do shit against them because they're rocking at least 40k in fleet power while I can maybe scrape 20k.
I feel like the Great Khan event fires way too early, since in every single game I played it has always popped before anyone can really stand a chance against him. Guess I'll just use some of my federation as a buffer until the Khan dies naturally.
Post by: Il Palazzo on April 03, 2020, 12:59:29 pm
I feel like the Great Khan event fires way too early, since in every single game I played it has always popped before anyone can really stand a chance against him. Guess I'll just use some of my federation as a buffer until the Khan dies naturally.If it bothers you, then push the midgame start date during galaxy creation to sometime later. I think it's tied to that.
Post by: Zangi on April 03, 2020, 01:29:10 pm
There is the crisis manager mid-game edition in steam workshop. You can change when the khans can show up alongside the conditions for them to show up. But it needs a new game.I feel like the Great Khan event fires way too early, since in every single game I played it has always popped before anyone can really stand a chance against him. Guess I'll just use some of my federation as a buffer until the Khan dies naturally.If it bothers you, then push the midgame start date during galaxy creation to sometime later. I think it's tied to that.
Post by: Teneb on April 03, 2020, 03:37:24 pm
Didn't think it was tied to that, thanks.I feel like the Great Khan event fires way too early, since in every single game I played it has always popped before anyone can really stand a chance against him. Guess I'll just use some of my federation as a buffer until the Khan dies naturally.If it bothers you, then push the midgame start date during galaxy creation to sometime later. I think it's tied to that.
I'll have to start a new game anyway because I let another empire join my hegemony... only for them to usurp leadership (and thus the federation fleet) because of their greater diplomatic weight.
And because I no longer had the federation fleet, the Khan was free to rampage across the entire federation while the new leader did fuck-all.
Post by: Telgin on April 03, 2020, 06:02:16 pm
Anyway, I gave the voidborne start a spin and it's really cool. Definitely changes the feel of the game in a measurable way for me. You start out very powerful, but it's really hard to expand early on. The ability to build science districts without using up building slots really helps with early science, and unless I'm crazy you also start out producing more unity than normal. Traditions seemed to come much faster.
I suspect the real pain comes about 2250 where you're struggling to keep up with the expansion of other empires. About 25 years in and I've only scraped up about half of the alloys needed for another habitat. That said, you don't spend as much time waiting for a habitat to be useful as you do a planet, so maybe it balances out. Another issue I'm expecting to see is that building slots are at a premium still. I tend to build with a gene clinic on every planet for the amenities and RP aspect, and that's a building slot I really want to recoup for habitats because getting even 40 pops on one is a bit tough without exceeding housing.
Post by: Paul on April 03, 2020, 07:15:03 pm
Marauders are the only thing tied to the midgame year right now I think. Both the Khan and when they start to offer themselves up as mercenaries. I think. Never used them for that so I barely pay attention to the notification.
Anyway, I gave the voidborne start a spin and it's really cool. Definitely changes the feel of the game in a measurable way for me. You start out very powerful, but it's really hard to expand early on. The ability to build science districts without using up building slots really helps with early science, and unless I'm crazy you also start out producing more unity than normal. Traditions seemed to come much faster.
I suspect the real pain comes about 2250 where you're struggling to keep up with the expansion of other empires. About 25 years in and I've only scraped up about half of the alloys needed for another habitat. That said, you don't spend as much time waiting for a habitat to be useful as you do a planet, so maybe it balances out. Another issue I'm expecting to see is that building slots are at a premium still. I tend to build with a gene clinic on every planet for the amenities and RP aspect, and that's a building slot I really want to recoup for habitats because getting even 40 pops on one is a bit tough without exceeding housing.
If you push alloy production to the extreme you can start churning out habitats pretty early. When I tried voidborn I didn't bother expanding my research and just went full alloy focused. I ended up only expanding to like 6 systems and using every drop of influence on habitats. When I had enough alloy production to keep pace with my influence generation I switched and started building research habitats. When I ran out of room I claimed and conquered neighboring systems and built more habitats. By 2300 I had 4x the population of any of the grand admiral AI lol.
Post by: Mini on April 03, 2020, 09:10:57 pm
Marauders are the only thing tied to the midgame year right now I think.Also the wraith leviathan, synthetic uprisings, enigmatic cache, and some of the "on the shoulders of giants" origin.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 03, 2020, 09:15:49 pm
Forgive me, but how bad is it to be a satrap?
Maybe it's worse now since it presumably ruins Federation progress, but how bad is it?
Post by: Mini on April 03, 2020, 09:56:56 pm
Post by: Teneb on April 04, 2020, 12:55:01 pm
You have to pay 10% energy and 20% mineral income, as well as 30% naval capacity, so not very bad on that front. Certainly better than having to fight and losing a bunch of ships and systems. The real risk comes from when the khan dies, depending on how successful they were there is a chance you will end up as a normal vassal and get integrated. You can rebel, but they keep a lot of the fleets they had as the khan so it's usually quite difficult.And it will boot you out of any federation you might be in, so there's that.
Post by: Karnewarrior on April 05, 2020, 02:05:03 am
My hive mind is lonely and wants to invite a few billion friends over.I legitimately love this concept and I wish there was an option to actually have that as a personality. I feel like a Hivemind should be able to have ethics, which determine it's personality, but also be able to switch them at will? Since it's less "these are what our empire holds dear" and more "this is my personal opinion on a subject".
Either way, it'd be pretty cool to get to be buddy-buddy with a hivemind. I imagine it'd be a pretty foreign experience for them, but out of a galaxy with half a dozen, one's liable to decide they like it.
Post by: Egan_BW on April 05, 2020, 02:28:05 am
But in the end, all we really needed to do was be brave enough to ask about their feelings.
Post by: LoSboccacc on April 05, 2020, 02:46:49 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 05, 2020, 04:40:47 pm
1. picking Hegemony or Federation start, and getting a Criminal Syndicate in my federation
Post by: LoSboccacc on April 06, 2020, 05:44:55 am
Post by: Blastbeard on April 06, 2020, 07:00:55 am
Post by: Karnewarrior on April 06, 2020, 07:21:35 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 06, 2020, 07:42:15 am
so, do you now have to build an outpost in every single system or there's some organic growth of borders still?Border growth happens through claiming new systems by building outposts now, has been that way for quite a while. It ties border growth to economy and influence. Those outposts can selectively be upgraded into starbases but even basic outposts have a tiny bit of defense which can deter tiny fleets or at least delay sometimes.
IIRC planets cannot be invaded until the starbase in the system has been conquered, as well, so a well fortified starbase protects the planets. Once you research FTL inhibitors, starbases also block enemy ships from circumventing them and proceeding to the next system so well fortified starbases can act as chokepoints forcing an engagement. Planets with a fortress also inhibit ships from proceeding until the fortress is destroyed or the planet is captured, so you can indeed make fortress worlds like Cadia to stop enemy progress/
Post by: Blastbeard on April 06, 2020, 08:25:04 am
That might actually be the best possible use for habitats, or at least a viable way to get around the limited living space, considering fortresses now provide housing.
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 06, 2020, 08:34:40 am
I think habitats with fotresses count for FTL inhibition as well. I say think because for some reason the inhibitor icon isn't showing up for me after researching the tech, and I haven't found myself in a situation where I would find out if it's actually working or not, much less if habitats count. If they do though, You could just build one at every possible location in a system, fortify them as much as possible, and watch the AI burn through 75% of its war exhaustion as it refuses to use its armies and insists on bombarding everything to death, as is tradition.Internally a habitat is just a planet type so there's no reason that a habitat with a fortress shouldn't also inhibit FTL once you have the technology. It would be pretty easy to test out so I may do so later today
That might actually be the best possible use for habitats, or at least a viable way to get around the limited living space, considering fortresses now provide housing.
Post by: Paul on April 06, 2020, 10:59:30 am
Actually, late-game AI likes to spam habitats and sometimes build them into fortresses. I have had to invade a planet and 5+ habitats in a system just to get past.
Post by: LoSboccacc on April 06, 2020, 05:23:49 pm
Post by: Zangi on April 06, 2020, 06:05:33 pm
Post by: BigD145 on April 06, 2020, 06:32:49 pm
have sectors been axed? I hit the sprawl soft cap and can't find anymore how to create them. sector UI is there and there's the core sector but can't find a create option. is it a research now? or a machine empire limit?
Planets/colony have a button on the right side. Know that sectors only count out about 4 sectors away from the center, the colony you choose to start a new sector.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 06, 2020, 07:22:30 pm
Mostly sectors are just for making sure your planets have a governor, and for automation purposes I guess.
Post by: Telgin on April 07, 2020, 12:14:27 am
Prior to that, I did go as much as 100 over my limit, but the penalty started making me anxious at that point so I did cave and build like 2 more admin buildings before I got the admin habitat.
One thing to note about this version too is that rare resources are a bit more valuable. The admin building upgrades cost crystals, and the galactic stock exchange (crystals), ministry of production (motes) and research administration (gases) buildings all cost 1 rare resource each to run now.
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 07, 2020, 05:35:28 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on April 07, 2020, 06:35:57 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 07, 2020, 06:42:25 am
so, even assuming I fill a planet with drone storages, I can build one drone storage for every 5 pops, and each drone storage only handles 4 pops, so for each of them I build I only have more homeless than not. what I am missing? (I'm not building them anyway because machines empire and whatnot, but still)Generally one uses housing districts primarily for housing rather than buildings
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 07, 2020, 07:23:07 am
As a topical side note, every housing building in the game does provide 5 or more housing once upgraded but that requires special technologies and Strategic Resources. There are exactly two buildings which can do so at base level; Communal Housings (+5 housing), which require the Shared Burdens civic and are therefore irrelevant to Machine Empires anyway, and Slave Huts (+8 housing), which are exclusive to colonies with the Thrall World designation and require at least some degree of effort put into enslaving organic pops.
Post by: LoSboccacc on April 08, 2020, 02:16:53 am
Post by: Rolan7 on April 08, 2020, 02:28:04 am
You can survive it by selling consume goods (or alloys, preferably) on the market, but it can really suck until the mining jobs finally get filled out.
Sadtip: A pop promoted (automatically) into a specialist job will take some time to demote back to a worker pop. The amount of time is equal to however long you're willing to pay attention plus a year.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on April 08, 2020, 02:32:32 am
Post by: Rolan7 on April 08, 2020, 02:40:02 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on April 08, 2020, 03:14:20 am
Doesn't the Harmony traditions also slow specialist decline?
Yes, one of the first tier halves it.Just to be clear, that's a 'no', not 'yes'. It speeds it up.
Post by: E. Albright on April 08, 2020, 10:16:42 am
[Hmm... next update is going to bring a significant overhaul to habitats? That's welcome news...]
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 10, 2020, 08:18:22 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on April 10, 2020, 09:17:36 am
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 10, 2020, 09:26:40 am
not sure that word was necessary there, by the by
Post by: LoSboccacc on April 10, 2020, 09:35:22 am
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 10, 2020, 09:54:06 am
And as for your other statement, Driven Assimilators aren't supposed to go for diplomacy. They have diplomatic penalties with all normal empires because they forcibly assimilate people into their collective (which kinda sucks when you'd actually like to continue existing as an independent being) and they gain small amounts of Unity for each pop assimilated because that's their entire goal - assimilation by force. With all due respect, it's not going to be easy to turn every sentient being in the galaxy into cyborgs and integrate them into your consciousness, but it's more than possible. You just have to work for it. It's the same principle as being Fanatic Purifiers or Determined Exterminators; the rest of the galaxy isn't going to let you genocide them all.
Post by: Egan_BW on April 10, 2020, 10:38:32 am
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 10, 2020, 10:41:08 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 10, 2020, 11:20:03 am
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 10, 2020, 11:33:39 am
[Edit] There's also the somewhat lame but quite plausible explanation that this is a gameplay concession implemented to prevent Gestalt Consciousnesses from waging literal forever wars against whoever they want without fear of having to stop before the enemy submits. :p
Post by: Bralbaard on April 10, 2020, 11:37:25 am
Edit: ninja'd by a sentient bowtie
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 10, 2020, 12:36:29 pm
Captain Janeway, for instance, convinces the Borg like, every 5 episodes or so to stop assimilating them because the immediate gains don't outweigh the immediate cost. So yeah if a civilization resists in a non-futile manner they would reconsider. War Exhaustion means different things for different races.
Post by: Sartain on April 10, 2020, 12:38:56 pm
War Exhaustion means different things for different races.
Which is likely also why it isn't called War Weariness or Public Outrage at Genocide or whatnot, and War Exhaustion being the most neutral wording they could think of in that regard.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 10, 2020, 01:05:13 pm
Because wanting to swoop in and interfere with a war is something you're supposed to declare beforehand by "guaranteeing independence", which costs influence because you're establishing an international policy. You *can* still screw with an existing conflict with your own casus belli, which I have done to save minor states, but you don't get treated as a savior or gain a vassal for it because you didn't go through the proper channels. You didn't make a promise or a warning, so it just looks opportunistic (and likely is).
But during a period of truce (white peace) you can totally offer protection (or "protection" $_$) against the next wave, and be taken seriously.
Edit: In current news, ancient terraforming went horribly wrong and released crazed mutants over a world. Also flooded it from desert to ocean? This is why planets are for the lesser species... Too bad we can't teleconference rulership. I presume that's how our droid-police work.
Oh but the funny bit is that the mutants are currently exterminating... droid pops. I'm not complaining.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 10, 2020, 01:36:34 pm
Starting with a machine planet also removes food for bio-reactors, so that's a thing. Had to settle ASAP.
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 10, 2020, 02:06:11 pm
Post by: E. Albright on April 10, 2020, 02:18:31 pm
(I've also just founded a Federation with my fleshie militarist egalitarian neighbors who I've been at max border friction with forever, mostly just because I could rather than because I needed to, but that's another tale.)
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 10, 2020, 02:43:25 pm
I was running a -20 energy deficit for a awhile, but I was able to market-sell it away.
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 10, 2020, 05:01:44 pm
I'm playing as driven assimilators so right now, so I started with the organic slurry site on the homeworld but also cyborgs eating it.That's both mildly disgusting and mildly interesting to think about. Logically, beyond whatever possible complications arise from cannibalism of their species (prion disease, woo!) fully assimilated peoples probably wouldn't care one way or the other about doing it, since they're too busy working for The MachineTM to worry about such things.
Although since the Organic Slurry feature is described as processed remains of biomass it might not even be an issue anyway.
Post by: Sartain on April 11, 2020, 04:49:23 am
An important aspect of it is whether the nation is "at war" for the purposes of signing defense treaties (or being forcefully vassalized). Fluff-wise the war might still be on, it's just that the chaos of the situation has given way to a temporary detente. New de-facto borders are drawn, and both states are recognized as sovereign enough to sign agreements without explicit duress.
Because wanting to swoop in and interfere with a war is something you're supposed to declare beforehand by "guaranteeing independence", which costs influence because you're establishing an international policy. You *can* still screw with an existing conflict with your own casus belli, which I have done to save minor states, but you don't get treated as a savior or gain a vassal for it because you didn't go through the proper channels. You didn't make a promise or a warning, so it just looks opportunistic (and likely is).
But during a period of truce (white peace) you can totally offer protection (or "protection" $_$) against the next wave, and be taken seriously.
I'd love if war was a bit more dynamic than the stilted "declaration of war/established peace" done now. I've been imagining a system where 1) closed borders doesn't actually prevent other empires from entering your borders, it just allows you to intercept/shoot them down if they do with very little repercussions (and you could do some Galactic Community laws on it as well), 2) Empires can always attack each others ships/fleets and invade planets (assuming their policies allow it), 2.1) once you have military control of a planet assuming full control of it is a lengthy process that requires expenditure of influence, military presence and possibly has events associated with it; and 3) when an empire fires on another empire the attacked empire can react with formal denouncement and/or declaration or war, or try and initiate more peaceful proceedings to prevent a war.
Having claims on systems would give reduced influence cost for integrating a conquer system since you've done some of the work pre-emptively, at the cost of diplomatic relations, and would also lead to less threat as you've stated your claim to the galactic community officially beforehand, instead of just suddenly "invading Poland".
I feel like the Galactic Community should also have an overall "ethical stance", affected by the diplomatic weight and ethics composition of its members. If the majority of the diplomatic weight of the GC is militants or authoritarians for example, there'd be less diplomatic impact for conquering and subjugating while the diplomatic impact of that would be great if the GC was pacifist and egalitarian.
The current "formal" war declarations could still be kept in the game and be used to lessen the diplomatic impact of your aggressive actions as well, hopefully creating a more dynamic Galactic Community. Empires would also be able to affect this "ethical stance" through the use of Envoys and favours.
For added granularity, you'd also be able to set your diplomatic stance towards other empires individually so you could maintain amiable relations with some empires while embargoing/isolating/bullying others, which of course would lead to various diplomatic modifiers. I like the current ability to set your diplomatic policy but it really needs to be possible to customize it individually
Post by: Blastbeard on April 11, 2020, 07:07:25 am
What I'd like to see are ways to manipulate war exhaustion, both for you and your enemy. Propaganda campaigns to reduce your war exhaustion, covert actions that raise theirs while damaging their infrastructure, and maybe a decision or edict that lets you risk your ruler's career for a chance to postpone the automatic peace-out, with catastrophic results if it fails.
Post by: Cthulhu on April 11, 2020, 09:07:16 am
Post by: E. Albright on April 11, 2020, 09:59:43 am
Post by: Sartain on April 11, 2020, 10:03:04 am
It seems like it might be a problem to do non-CB wars from an AI perspective. Having clear at-war/at-peace lets the AI behave more cleanly, I suspect, and we've had plenty of problems with AI as is...
You're probably right but honestly I feel it shows a very distinct lack of vision that they couldn't come up with anything better than the current system
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 11, 2020, 10:53:43 am
I was sandwiched between a fallen empire and some driven assimilators. Contrary to previous experience, the machines were pacing me in every respect, including science. And I was rushing science. Anyway I figured my only choice was to chip away at them via small wars. My first war turned out to be the last one. I got lucky and caught his fleet split apart with my whole fleet.
I then found out that they had something like 40-50 planets total. It's not even mid-game yet, but that was how they were keeping up. Sheer quantity. They had gotten a pile of local events/spawns (Like the one that spawns a cluster of tomb worlds). I had to stop the war because I had absorbed 250+ robot pops and was running a -300 energy deficit. I ended up madly blasting every other product of my civilization into space to be sold to feed these damn robots while I dismantled them all as quickly as possible.
Then I found that they had assimilated 3 smaller civs, which I had newly liberated. The solution to my problem was to simultaneously convert them to food and selling the now-massive quantities of food while also selling the pops themselves as slaves on the market. That pulled my economy through until all those damn dirty robots were scrap.
I'm not sure if it balances out the moral compass that the goal is to keep as many as possible around until my next ascension perk and I can subsume them into the hive mind. I don't think it does. I guess it's better than being food. Arguably.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 12, 2020, 05:29:27 am
I set the AI policy no problem, which maybe caused some robots to promote into bureaucrat jobs? Not sure, that might have been a result of the synth upgrade. Either way most of them remained mindless servants, so I checked the species tab. Servitude citizenship instead of slaves citizenship, but with an option for residence citizenship like other xenos. For living conditions they were set to servitude ("Merchandise requires no goods" or something) with decent and social welfare available. Not basic subsistence for some reason, but alright. So far kinda weird, since those 2 Servitude settings are supposed to be exclusively for the AI-servitude policy, which I had changed. But okay - I gave them decent conditions.
This made them undesirables.
Still Servitude citizenship, with decent living conditions, but also an active purge. Which was indeed happening on all worlds, kinda wrecking my economy. Quick the citizenship tab! Residence citizenship was still shown as available, so I tried to give them that- but clicking it just greyed it out.
I killed the game's process, hoping it hasn't ironman autosaved. I ought to be asleep anyway. Maybe I am :P
It was a silly experiment anyway, the optimal path is to keep them in servitude and squash the rebellion. I was just curious...
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 12, 2020, 11:07:17 am
You should be able to prevent it by outlawing purges and then granting robots rights after. You can then turn allow purges again after the ten years are up with no problems, but you'll have to do that over again any subsequent time you want to modify robot rights.
Post by: Karnewarrior on April 12, 2020, 11:11:51 am
Post by: Telgin on April 12, 2020, 03:20:09 pm
There's a seemingly-universal glitch with xenophobes allowing robots to have rights where, as you discovered, doing so hard-locks them to being purged with no way to stop it.
You should be able to prevent it by outlawing purges and then granting robots rights after. You can then turn allow purges again after the ten years are up with no problems, but you'll have to do that over again any subsequent time you want to modify robot rights.
Outlawing purges preventing this must be why I've never seen the bug, since I usually play materialist inward perfectionist xenophobes who give robots rights, and I've never seen the bug. I always outlaw purges as one of the first things I do in a new game.
Post by: Karnewarrior on April 12, 2020, 04:05:31 pm
But the lag on any galaxy size I actually care about playing on is egregious in the extreme. It takes half a second at the end of every day! Very, very noticable.
I know bannerlord had an update that for some reason switched the game to playing on the CPU graphics card and caused a similar problem, but if there's a way to check if that's happening with Stellaris I don't know where to find it.
It seems like it might be a problem to do non-CB wars from an AI perspective. Having clear at-war/at-peace lets the AI behave more cleanly, I suspect, and we've had plenty of problems with AI as is...I wonder when it will become economical to put a learning AI algorithm behind the wheel of a bunch of AI civs in a game like this and then just run it for several thousand cycles. Neural Networks are surprisingly CPU-light once the learning bits are stripped away, and it'd probably produce several varieties of AI that could be swapped out to allow for different playstyles from the computer.
Plus, they'd be able to handle resources much better than static AI. They wouldn't *need* the bonuses to keep up with the majority of players, and they'd be a lot more reactive to new strategies from the player, even after the lobotomization for release.
I guess the big issue right now is nobody wants to pay for the server farm needed to train up relatively complicated networks like that in a reasonable timeframe, especially since they'd need to get trained on fairly late-in-dev gameplay.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 13, 2020, 11:19:56 am
Post by: Culise on April 13, 2020, 05:39:13 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on April 13, 2020, 05:59:53 pm
Hell, even a lot of the complexity we do have kinda blends into the background most of the time. When was the last time you looked at two fleets closing for battle and thought to yourself "Aha, but that's only part of the story! There are fifty ships in this battle, each with their own loadouts, AI, and fortune! Hundreds or thousands of actions and decisions and turns of fate will decide the fine nuances of this engagement!"
Yeah, probably never. Bigger fleet power wins. Winner takes some casualties and ship damage, loser takes more. They could have abstracted that even further and it wouldn't have mattered a great deal. Likewise, "better AI" sounds great on paper, but it's not really the point most of the time, and without the infrastructure to make those results meaningful AND apparent, doesn't really do anything you can't gain by dumping numbers somewhere.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on April 13, 2020, 06:49:18 pm
Though, it is worth noting that it was tried for Superpower. It wasn't all that impressive, as I recall.
...other people remember that game?
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 13, 2020, 06:55:53 pm
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 13, 2020, 08:34:01 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 13, 2020, 08:44:40 pm
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 13, 2020, 09:31:16 pm
Unrelated: I noticed about last week in a Determined Exterminators game that armageddon bombardment does not, in fact, create tomb worlds upon killing the last pop on a planet. it also takes absolutely fucking forever to kill anyone despite being the bombardment stance explicitly designed to maximize casualties, so i modded it to not suck incredibly hard Some forum diving has informed me that not only is this not a recent issue, it has definitely persisted since version 2.3 and quite possibly 2.2, which was released in December of 2018, despite being a very simple coding mistake (the event to turn the planet into a tomb world is told to fire after the last pop dies and the planet becomes unowned, but because the planet is unowned the event doesn't fire properly and nothing happens).
Post by: Telgin on April 14, 2020, 12:06:32 am
It would be great if you could, say, spend influence to begin a session.
Isn't this how emergency measures work? There's a cooldown on it though, and you have to be in the council.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 14, 2020, 08:17:37 am
It would be great if you could, say, spend influence to begin a session.
Isn't this how emergency measures work? There's a cooldown on it though, and you have to be in the council.
yep, that's exactly how it works. but yeah, it gives some incentive to be on the council.
Post by: Sindain on April 14, 2020, 09:21:47 am
I've got two games well past 2300 right now and neither of them have had the council form. One of those games has two of the midgame crisis's active right now and we've got the "respond to crisis" resolutions buried behind like 15 years of random votes.
Post by: Knave on April 14, 2020, 09:26:01 am
That requires the council to actually be formed thou.
I've got two games well past 2300 right now and neither of them have had the council form. One of those games has two of the midgame crisis's active right now and we've got the "respond to crisis" resolutions buried behind like 15 years of random votes.
Yeah it took a while to get the 'form council' vote to the top for me. Even as one of the top powers pushing it up everyone else seemed to think minor sanctions were much more important.
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 14, 2020, 09:27:50 am
Post by: Knave on April 14, 2020, 09:40:48 am
I had to sort of force the issue in my game, amassed enough favors and influence to shove the formation of the council to the top of the queue and ensure my place on it, then reduce the number of council seats to 1 while voting myself a permanent seat
I am definitely not surprised that you Palpatine'd your way into become Space Emperor of the Galaxy! :P
You'd think that some votes would be considered too important to call favours in on.
Alien 1: "He wants to rule indefinitely 100%! That's bad! We should vote against this..."
Alien 2: "BUT HE SENT US 1,000 SPACE BURGERS! We owe him.'
Alien 1: "Oh, fair enough. How bad could he be?"
Post by: LoSboccacc on April 14, 2020, 09:40:55 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 14, 2020, 09:45:36 am
Amusingly, most of my favors were indeed gotten by trading away my ridiculous surplus of food. I'm sure we spun it as preventing hunger and feeding the poor, etc etcI had to sort of force the issue in my game, amassed enough favors and influence to shove the formation of the council to the top of the queue and ensure my place on it, then reduce the number of council seats to 1 while voting myself a permanent seat
I am definitely not surprised that you Palpatine'd your way into become Space Emperor of the Galaxy! :P
You'd think that some votes would be considered too important to call favours in on.
Alien 1: "He wants to rule indefinitely 100%! That's bad! We should vote against this..."
Alien 2: "BUT HE SENT US 1,000 SPACE BURGERS! We owe him.'
Alien 1: "Oh, fair enough. How bad could he be?"
Post by: Rolan7 on April 14, 2020, 10:12:27 am
That requires the council to actually be formed thou.Remember that resolutions are listed in decreasing order of support, so it might be worth abstaining from everything but the truly important stuff (you can still vote once they hit the floor, you just don't increase their priority in the meantime). But yeah, based on Reddit the AI hilariously undervalues the crisis resolutions and I think they hinted that it's intentional.
I've got two games well past 2300 right now and neither of them have had the council form. One of those games has two of the midgame crisis's active right now and we've got the "respond to crisis" resolutions buried behind like 15 years of random votes.
so to avoid war tiredness I conquered with laser focus every last planet to these other bird dudes while waiting for the war timeout to subside on the space lizards, but then all their other sectors where I didn't go and capture the station reverted to wild. not even independent or pirates, just empty void. this goddamn game.it's like they thought of the same trick you did
I guess spawning pirates would make sense, but so does the outposts being lost when there are no pops to support them. Maybe they self-destructed their installations when all hope was lost.
I admit I was a little surprised the first time it happened to me (I think I was a ravenous hive mind doing total war) but it's hardly unfair IMO.
Post by: E. Albright on April 14, 2020, 11:12:53 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 14, 2020, 11:13:04 am
That requires the council to actually be formed thou.
I've got two games well past 2300 right now and neither of them have had the council form. One of those games has two of the midgame crisis's active right now and we've got the "respond to crisis" resolutions buried behind like 15 years of random votes.
yeah, the entire vote prioritization system is pretty bad right now. and yeah, i opened the L gates and then killed the grey tempest before the Focus even came up for a vote.
it probably needs better logic that incorporates the ability to send envoys on specific initiatives (instead of just "+10% diplo power per envoy), and to incorporate your influence on a specific topic (biggest economies have most influence on economic laws, biggest fleet powers on military laws, etc), and the ability to spend Influence for a one-time bump on any given vote prioritization.
and that's just for starters. but as usual, it's paradox, they're not going to spend a ton of time making a "good" system
Post by: Iceblaster on April 14, 2020, 06:30:17 pm
as much as i love stellaris, it's really gone from 'a neat scifi 4x with some good ideas to build on' to 'feature creep and half-baked systems.'
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 14, 2020, 06:59:53 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 14, 2020, 07:01:19 pm
YeahhhhSuch is the nature of the Paradox DLC model. You can make cool systems as a part of a DLC but then what? What if you need to change that system to work with something else? What if you want to add new content that relies on this? What if you want to improve it but cant rationalize spending that kind of man hours on content that neither attracts new players (free updates) or DLC purchases (DLC exclusive)?
as much as i love stellaris, it's really gone from 'a neat scifi 4x with some good ideas to build on' to 'feature creep and half-baked systems.'
It just quickly becomes a mess. It can be handled relatively well or poorly depending on the game and DLC in question, but overall the way I see it its a huge harm to developing systems that arent new or were always in vanilla.
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 14, 2020, 08:55:35 pm
so to avoid war tiredness I conquered with laser focus every last planet to these other bird dudes while waiting for the war timeout to subside on the space lizards, but then all their other sectors where I didn't go and capture the station reverted to wild. not even independent or pirates, just empty void. this goddamn game.It's unfortunate, but unoccupied systems revert to unowned when an empire falls. You get a two-year grace period after war exhaustion hits max before the enemy can force a status quo, so I would do everything you need to before claiming the last planet and then round up as many of their stations as you can before invading so that doesn't happen.
Post by: Iceblaster on April 14, 2020, 09:30:23 pm
YeahhhhSuch is the nature of the Paradox DLC model. You can make cool systems as a part of a DLC but then what? What if you need to change that system to work with something else? What if you want to add new content that relies on this? What if you want to improve it but cant rationalize spending that kind of man hours on content that neither attracts new players (free updates) or DLC purchases (DLC exclusive)?
as much as i love stellaris, it's really gone from 'a neat scifi 4x with some good ideas to build on' to 'feature creep and half-baked systems.'
It just quickly becomes a mess. It can be handled relatively well or poorly depending on the game and DLC in question, but overall the way I see it its a huge harm to developing systems that arent new or were always in vanilla.
Even with that in mind, Crusader Kings 2 has managed generally to avoid this issue, and while I don't really enjoy it anymore, EU4 is still... EU4. Meanwhile Stellaris has just had the worst of the model in every step.
srsly lithoids get unique mechanics but you can't just update plantoids to add in some unique mechanics?
Post by: LoSboccacc on April 15, 2020, 02:10:44 am
it's like they thought of the same trick you did
I guess spawning pirates would make sense, but so does the outposts being lost when there are no pops to support them. Maybe they self-destructed their installations when all hope was lost.
I admit I was a little surprised the first time it happened to me (I think I was a ravenous hive mind doing total war) but it's hardly unfair IMO.
eh it's not a trick, it's about modelling conquest and at the bottom convenience to the player. I'm gonna get these system anyway, I've been sitting on influence cap for a while as I'm expanding trough conquest, it's just the annoyance at this point.
and nothing kicks me out of make believe than "hard game balance mechanics showed in your face" - you have sprawl anyway, and maintenance costs, and so long and so forth just use the game mechanics! throw interesting problems at me, not just force me the long way around.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 15, 2020, 12:06:43 pm
What I've looked up suggests that all pops (primary and xeno) are converted by the project, and I'm aware of the assimilation living standard for turning immigrants into cyborgs or full mechanicals, but I'm not sure whether that living standard is required in current version. Even for slaves/livestock?
Xenophobia/slavery in general has been an interesting playstyle to explore, but I think I prefer egalitarian in general. Utopian Abundance isn't just nice in-universe, it eases the pop-micro a lot. I might just run Mechanists with Shared Burdens, and deal with the late-game mineral shortages with moderation rather than abomination...
Edit: I just realized: the other morning at 6AM when I accidentally started exterminating my robots by offering them rights, I was exterminating my robots with an active synth-rebellion event line. That's ironic because I've been trying to get them to go ahead and rebel already, and they're *supposed* to do that if you try to exterminate them to dodge the event.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 15, 2020, 03:17:08 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 15, 2020, 03:23:51 pm
My conclusion from my previous game is that Hive Minds are ridiculously OP. I had 1000+ Admin cap being used, not even close to my cap, never even worried about running over my cap.
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 15, 2020, 03:50:38 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 15, 2020, 03:57:57 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on April 15, 2020, 04:05:36 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 15, 2020, 05:05:26 pm
Everything I've heard about Hiveminds for the last few months is that they're pretty UP (particularly if you aren't ravenous) and neglected, so not having to worry about administrative buildings so much sounds like a decent boost.
The standard unity building also builds admin cap. So does the planet capital building.
So basically the more pops you get the more admin cap you get. Also they get admin cap % techs.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 15, 2020, 06:00:44 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 15, 2020, 06:17:36 pm
Are the techs for +10% alloy production for all races now, or is that another hive-mind-bullshit bonus?
Post by: Telgin on April 15, 2020, 06:21:16 pm
I feel like unity, traditions and ascension perks probably need to be rethought completely, and spiritualists need some other, better thing to be good at.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 15, 2020, 06:44:06 pm
@Dun
The +10% alloys techs (and the ones for consumer goods I guess you miss out on as gestalt :P) are for everyone, yeah.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 16, 2020, 10:16:01 am
YeahhhhSuch is the nature of the Paradox DLC model. You can make cool systems as a part of a DLC but then what? What if you need to change that system to work with something else? What if you want to add new content that relies on this? What if you want to improve it but cant rationalize spending that kind of man hours on content that neither attracts new players (free updates) or DLC purchases (DLC exclusive)?
as much as i love stellaris, it's really gone from 'a neat scifi 4x with some good ideas to build on' to 'feature creep and half-baked systems.'
It just quickly becomes a mess. It can be handled relatively well or poorly depending on the game and DLC in question, but overall the way I see it its a huge harm to developing systems that arent new or were always in vanilla.
Even with that in mind, Crusader Kings 2 has managed generally to avoid this issue, and while I don't really enjoy it anymore, EU4 is still... EU4. Meanwhile Stellaris has just had the worst of the model in every step.
srsly lithoids get unique mechanics but you can't just update plantoids to add in some unique mechanics?
yeah, i would really appreciate more back-fill. unique mechanics for every species group would be a nice start. they don't even need to be game-changing like lithoids. just something for minor flavor, like +1 envoy for humanoids, +5% habitability for mammals, etc. sure, do something wild for plantoids and whatever else.
all the old civics could really use some love, too. too many are just boring filler like +unity, +happiness, etc.
but ultimately i think the underlying model of the game just doesn't work well. colonization is too 'blah', internal factions meaningless and can be ignored (hell, ethics shift apparently doesn't even work right, like at all), techs are 100% repeatables after just like, 100-150 years, etc.
typical paradox game takes ~2 years to get good, we are almost 4 years in and there are serious flaws with the basic systems in the game.
Post by: Radsoc on April 16, 2020, 10:47:12 am
Post by: Iceblaster on April 16, 2020, 04:01:33 pm
YeahhhhSuch is the nature of the Paradox DLC model. You can make cool systems as a part of a DLC but then what? What if you need to change that system to work with something else? What if you want to add new content that relies on this? What if you want to improve it but can’t rationalize spending that kind of man hours on content that neither attracts new players (free updates) or DLC purchases (DLC exclusive)?
as much as i love stellaris, it's really gone from 'a neat scifi 4x with some good ideas to build on' to 'feature creep and half-baked systems.'
It just quickly becomes a mess. It can be handled relatively well or poorly depending on the game and DLC in question, but overall the way I see it it’s a huge harm to developing systems that aren’t new or were always in vanilla.
Even with that in mind, Crusader Kings 2 has managed generally to avoid this issue, and while I don't really enjoy it anymore, EU4 is still... EU4. Meanwhile Stellaris has just had the worst of the model in every step.
srsly lithoids get unique mechanics but you can't just update plantoids to add in some unique mechanics?
yeah, i would really appreciate more back-fill. unique mechanics for every species group would be a nice start. they don't even need to be game-changing like lithoids. just something for minor flavor, like +1 envoy for humanoids, +5% habitability for mammals, etc. sure, do something wild for plantoids and whatever else.
all the old civics could really use some love, too. too many are just boring filler like +unity, +happiness, etc.
but ultimately i think the underlying model of the game just doesn't work well. colonization is too 'blah', internal factions meaningless and can be ignored (hell, ethics shift apparently doesn't even work right, like at all), techs are 100% repeatables after just like, 100-150 years, etc.
typical paradox game takes ~2 years to get good, we are almost 4 years in and there are serious flaws with the basic systems in the game.
yeah
they ripped out a ton of neat stuff too
for example: faction rework had independence factions alongside iirc others, as shown here by the wiki
Spoiler: Known Factions (click to show/hide)
But with the ethics rework and the following faction rework, they just
kinda fucking ditched all the interesting results of hte previous system, for example even tho it was shallow, they removed hte ability to do things such as:
have factions with leaders that aren't your own existing leaders -and thus remove the weirdness of your leader of your xenophobic fan. authoriatian empire being in the egalitarian faction
factions actually being worth keeping docile
factions that actually have an effect on galactic politics
srsly, having a sector revolt faction actually pull a sector away if it gets too unhappy would be fucking fantastic to reduce late-game blobbing boredom. but nope, one planet an dmaybe two systems will pop away and then get swatted down near instantly.
they also just completely fuck with sectors
srsly now sectors aren't even worth having
can't automate them without going into each individual planet to set that planet to be automated(the fuck how does this reduce micro)
they don't auto colonize systems in their borders(can't even give a toggle?)
can't auto build stations in their borders
can't manually designate sectors
i might be the only one, but i really liked it when factions were like mini countries inside your own, with their own construction fleet and colony ships + taking resources and giving a fraction to you as a tax. it made it feel more like the wheels of an empire slowly grinding ddown as they grew too big to control directly.
EDIT: Also, selective purging and enslavement.
Why can't I just enslave one planet's pops of a species but leave hte rest free? Why not the same for purging.
If I'm a horrible dictatorship, let me actually direct my killsquids to kill the xenos on one planet for lebesraum instead of having to have all of that species being dead.
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 16, 2020, 05:01:49 pm
Post by: Iceblaster on April 16, 2020, 06:05:31 pm
This automates based on either colony designation or sector designation depending on if you manually set the former and if the latter's sector auto build is on.
Now why the game doesn't just let you, I don't know, automate all planets in a sector and only bother to automate different if colony designation is set instead of making you go into every planet to set automation on before it actually automates is dumb.
EDIT: one step forward, two steps back in many cases for stellaris devs
Post by: LoSboccacc on April 17, 2020, 03:06:29 am
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1764704051
Post by: Telgin on April 19, 2020, 11:32:07 am
I'm a bit behind where I'd normally be since I've been trying to stick to the spirit of the origin and have refused to put any of my organic pops on anything but habitats, and normally by this point I'd have a ringworld or two dedicated to research and some ecumenopoleis for alloys and consumer goods. I've colonized all of the planets in my empire's borders, but only put droids (and now synths) on them, which means slow growth rates. If I built a ringworld I'd do the same and only put robots on it, which feels like an extreme waste of alloys.
Voidborne is excellent for science, and surprisingly unity, at the game start, but it feels like it lags a little behind normal starts after that. Not enough to make it a real handicap though. The real test will be when the crisis arrives in about 20 game years, since I tried cranking it up to 10x, and my fleets aren't as strong as normal.
On a completely different subject, I wish Paradox would work on the loading speed of Stellaris. I genuinely wonder why the game takes so long to start up, since I own no other software (except maybe other games by them) that take so long to start up. Not even things like Unreal Engine's editor takes so long.
It takes maybe 2-3 full minutes to load on my desktop, but on my laptop I clocked it last night and it literally took 11 full minutes for the game to start. Admittedly, that was with some mods since my friends wanted to play multiplayer with those mods, but... is there like a cryptominer installed in this thing now? What is it even doing during startup?
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 19, 2020, 12:15:38 pm
Because of that I went with biological ascension and managed to get all the Ascension Perks and points relatively early because of the fast research speed. I should have gone a little heavier into alloys at the start though. I ended up using genetically engineered lithovores to colonize tomb worlds and some uplifted nerve-stapled to colonize everything else.
Post by: Bralbaard on April 19, 2020, 01:09:25 pm
On a completely different subject, I wish Paradox would work on the loading speed of Stellaris. I genuinely wonder why the game takes so long to start up, since I own no other software (except maybe other games by them) that take so long to start up. Not even things like Unreal Engine's editor takes so long.
It takes maybe 2-3 full minutes to load on my desktop, but on my laptop I clocked it last night and it literally took 11 full minutes for the game to start. Admittedly, that was with some mods since my friends wanted to play multiplayer with those mods, but... is there like a cryptominer installed in this thing now? What is it even doing during startup?
I have no idea, but I did notice the game starts up significantly faster when you exit to desktop and start up again, (which I do quite often as I'm experimenting with modding right now)
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 19, 2020, 06:21:54 pm
On a completely different subject, I wish Paradox would work on the loading speed of Stellaris. I genuinely wonder why the game takes so long to start up, since I own no other software (except maybe other games by them) that take so long to start up. Not even things like Unreal Engine's editor takes so long.
It takes maybe 2-3 full minutes to load on my desktop, but on my laptop I clocked it last night and it literally took 11 full minutes for the game to start. Admittedly, that was with some mods since my friends wanted to play multiplayer with those mods, but... is there like a cryptominer installed in this thing now? What is it even doing during startup?
I have no idea, but I did notice the game starts up significantly faster when you exit to desktop and start up again, (which I do quite often as I'm experimenting with modding right now)
yeah, because it's cached a ton of resources.
unclear what takes so much effort to cache though
Post by: Telgin on April 20, 2020, 10:18:58 pm
I'm admittedly a bit handicapped by playing xenophobic voidebornes and didn't spam habitats as hard as I could, but I had 5 fleets of a titan and 26 battleships each, plus a juggernaut, and it just was not enough. Each fleet was about 200k power, but the Contingency strolled in with 2 fleets of over 1 million power each, and just wrecked my entire fleet. I'd have done a lot better if I used penetration weapons, and may switch over in a desperate attempt to survive, but I think this game may be lost. The Contingency is currently just parked in the border system they stole from me, presumably more interested in heading through the gateway they just took, but if they start attacking again I'm dead. I need 120k alloys to replace my fleet, and have only about +900 alloys per month. Not happening in time.
I think I may try again with fewer AI empires so I have more space to spread out next time, since I'm pretty sure it can be done with a somewhat stronger economy that would have supported a larger fleet, but... I'm not sure a single player could beat 25x in vanilla with remotely normal settings.
Post by: Kanil on April 21, 2020, 04:33:16 am
Post by: Telgin on April 21, 2020, 09:31:32 am
Or maybe penetration weapon battleships are better than I expect against the Contingency and you wouldn't need so much.
Anyway, the Contingency has decided to spend 50 years sitting in that border system, letting me rebuild my fleet entirely and retake it. Twice. The first time I retook it they showed up with 4 fleets through the gateway and pounded me into dirt again, but are once again just sitting there and not bothering me. I'm not entirely sure what to do at this point. I'm debating between trying to build up extra fleets even if I go seriously into the negative on energy output per month, switching over to penetration weapons, or just turtling until my technology gets good enough that my fleets aren't steamrolled. 30 levels of repeatables hasn't been enough so far.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 21, 2020, 11:14:33 am
Post by: Telgin on April 21, 2020, 03:21:44 pm
Also, I'm pretty positive the Contingency would stomp it at these levels.
Post by: Aoi on April 21, 2020, 03:37:52 pm
Post by: E. Albright on April 21, 2020, 03:50:07 pm
Post by: LoSboccacc on April 21, 2020, 04:45:56 pm
federations add a whole layer of conflict based on diplomacy weight, favours and strategic backstabbing and helps greatly shacking up lulls between wars. a decent computer is needed as it's best played on larger, more populated galaxies
synthetic dawn has orthogonal mechanics to the game, like lithoids you mostly see these when playing specific empires, I think overall adds less content than story pack but enable more options and play styles
however these are due my personal preference for crunch instead of fluff, I just skip most of anomalies and research project texts beyond what they give anyway, so adding flavor doesn't really mean much to me, YMMV tho.
Post by: Hanzoku on April 21, 2020, 04:53:11 pm
I think my species just became more aggressive.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 21, 2020, 06:13:26 pm
So I decided to take a Scion race (starts as a Ancient Empire vassal) and their first gift to me is to hand be a battlecruiser and three escorts they were going to toss into a star. 6k fleet power in the first 10 years.US foreign policy for the last 70 years
I think my species just became more aggressive.
Post by: Telgin on April 22, 2020, 12:39:39 am
I tried expanding my alloy production and almost doubled it. That did help me rebuild faster, but it was just not going to be enough. Ended up converting my battleships over to penetration weapons, which helped I think, but it wasn't enough either.
The contingency had something like 10 million fleet power sitting on the machine world next door, and every so often another fleet spawns and just sits there, adding another million to it. I don't think it's possible to produce enough ships to take them in this game. After they invaded and took the Terminal Egress system, I called it. I needed to take that machine world out much sooner.
Time to start over with a more normal start and see if I can take the 10x crisis.
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 22, 2020, 02:00:07 am
synthetic dawn has orthogonal mechanics to the game, like lithoids you mostly see these when playing specific empires, I think overall adds less content than story pack but enable more options and play stylesSynthetic Dawn also lets you play the various Machine Empire types, which are definitely unique gameplay styles IMO.
Post by: LoSboccacc on April 22, 2020, 02:42:38 am
synthetic dawn has orthogonal mechanics to the game, like lithoids you mostly see these when playing specific empires, I think overall adds less content than story pack but enable more options and play stylesSynthetic Dawn also lets you play the various Machine Empire types, which are definitely unique gameplay styles IMO.
isn't this the same I said?
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 22, 2020, 07:40:04 pm
Post by: Aoi on April 23, 2020, 12:14:18 am
Killbots with the conduct that makes them intent on killing everybody in the galaxy, which means they can't trade, can't negotiate, can't form federations, and just basically can't do anything other than make a giant murderball of ships and systematically purge every planet. Yep, that was a good idea. ::)
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 23, 2020, 02:02:33 am
Post by: Iceblaster on April 23, 2020, 08:58:07 am
Spoiler: hot take (click to show/hide)
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 23, 2020, 10:22:49 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 23, 2020, 11:11:01 am
Unless I'm doing a stupid gimmick run, my standard empire is a genocidal empire. I just appreciate carving out a wide demilitarized zone in galactic space and playing like an exceedingly more hostile enigmatic observer, occasionally intervening for shits and gigglesSpoiler: hot take (click to show/hide)
Post by: EuchreJack on April 23, 2020, 05:03:00 pm
My massive plan to get neighbors that were decent folks that would band up against me, and whom I could then reform myself and join too, failed.
I understand why people play various forms of purgers, because they're all assholes in Stellaris. Lots of respect for the hivers and assimilators, at least they understand its the governments and not the aliens (mostly).
...and of course, I prefer building to fighting, so being ultra-miltarist is actually pretty weak. I'm going to start a war just to tech up from enemy salvage. Maybe I'll break out into open space, might lose an uncolonized system, but whatever. Give my people what they want I guess.
Post by: Aoi on April 23, 2020, 07:10:41 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
What on earth is that bit in the middle about Coordinators about? This building should have absolutely nothing to do with them...?
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 23, 2020, 08:19:55 pm
Post by: E. Albright on April 23, 2020, 08:30:57 pm
Post by: Ibid Straydrink on April 23, 2020, 09:04:38 pm
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 23, 2020, 09:08:28 pm
Post by: Telgin on April 24, 2020, 02:08:26 pm
Post by: LoSboccacc on April 24, 2020, 05:49:51 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on April 24, 2020, 06:03:06 pm
Post by: E. Albright on April 24, 2020, 06:37:06 pm
Post by: Telgin on April 25, 2020, 12:21:51 am
I don't hate it, but just kind of don't care I guess. I'll echo what I read on their forums and say I'd much rather see a tradition rework.
why is such a pain in the ass to use fleet automatic reinforcements? is there any mod to make it better or at least slightly more reliable?
I wish I knew, because like everyone else, I keep having issues with it. The big issue I'm having is that if you try to reinforce your fleets while in battle, the game inevitably decides that your ships are unreachable and just plops the new ships at the shipyard in new single ship fleets that you then have to send over manually and merge manually, which involves fixing the fleet size later and disbanding the fleet you just merged.
From a developer's point of view I understand how they came to compromise on this system, but it's still a massive pain to use.
Is there a key or way to tell fleets to merge like the fleet manager does? The only way I know how to do it is to drag and drop ships, which does annoying things like leave the empty fleet in the fleet manager and increase the destination fleet's ship count, potentially well beyond the fleet command limit. If there was a way to issue a merge that didn't do that, I'd complain much less.
Post by: LoSboccacc on April 25, 2020, 01:07:52 am
Post by: Culise on April 25, 2020, 10:16:29 am
Is there a key or way to tell fleets to merge like the fleet manager does? The only way I know how to do it is to drag and drop ships, which does annoying things like leave the empty fleet in the fleet manager and increase the destination fleet's ship count, potentially well beyond the fleet command limit. If there was a way to issue a merge that didn't do that, I'd complain much less.Select the fleets you want to merge and click the Merge Fleet button or "G" key. There are no location restrictions, though you may want to double-check which fleet the game decides to merge the selected fleets into: I think it prefers fleets with custom names and older fleets first. For my part, I didn't even know you could drag and drop ships between fleets in the fleet manager. I try to handle the fleets directly.
Post by: EuchreJack on April 25, 2020, 04:08:39 pm
It depends on how it's handled. I'm not in love with what they're proposing, but I'm also not in love with the current system where there's a bunch of options you eventually are renewing every time they expire. Adding to the significance of influence doesn't thrill me, though.
I don't really like the changes all that much either. It feels like what they're proposing is... policies. Like, how is it different if you are setting something that's ongoing? It just costs influence now. And it's mixed in with the unity ambitions and campaigns that are increasingly different from edicts but still stuffed in the same window.
I don't hate it, but just kind of don't care I guess. I'll echo what I read on their forums and say I'd much rather see a tradition rework.
I guess the real problem is that it continues to burden the Influence resource, which is generally the rarest resource in most stages of the game. It's the manpower resource of Stellaris.
Post by: Iceblaster on April 25, 2020, 06:14:12 pm
Post by: Telgin on April 25, 2020, 08:03:09 pm
Is there a key or way to tell fleets to merge like the fleet manager does? The only way I know how to do it is to drag and drop ships, which does annoying things like leave the empty fleet in the fleet manager and increase the destination fleet's ship count, potentially well beyond the fleet command limit. If there was a way to issue a merge that didn't do that, I'd complain much less.Select the fleets you want to merge and click the Merge Fleet button or "G" key. There are no location restrictions, though you may want to double-check which fleet the game decides to merge the selected fleets into: I think it prefers fleets with custom names and older fleets first. For my part, I didn't even know you could drag and drop ships between fleets in the fleet manager. I try to handle the fleets directly.
I don't know if you can do it from inside of the fleet manager, since I was just talking about dragging and dropping them between selected fleets out in the galaxy / system view.
I'll give the merge button / G key a try though. I must have overlooked it before.
Post by: E. Albright on April 26, 2020, 10:11:55 am
Yeah. And since they changed expansion to be province based vs the more organic(imo) system of before, they can't really change how influence works in terms of gaining it, because then you'd unbalance the early game's expansion.
They can, but it would require adding in late techs or suchlike that add influence. They already do this early on by having that one single tech that adds influence.
Or they could make "internal influence" separate from "external influence", which would probably honestly make more sense given how vague and fungible influence has become.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 26, 2020, 01:15:21 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on April 26, 2020, 02:05:03 pm
Well, I had the smart idea to play as a Militarist, Authoritarian, Xenophobe, thinking that my neighbors would then be peaceful, egalitarian, alien-lovers. One was a Federation Builder...and the other an Honorable Warrior. And slightly further out were all xenophobe authoritarian. I pushed the Militarilist to dump one of the others, and get the Authoritarian dumped.Yeah, I don't know why, but it definitely feels like Xenophobic Authoritarians are overselected for in my games. They're bloody everywhere.
My massive plan to get neighbors that were decent folks that would band up against me, and whom I could then reform myself and join too, failed.
I understand why people play various forms of purgers, because they're all assholes in Stellaris. Lots of respect for the hivers and assimilators, at least they understand its the governments and not the aliens (mostly).
...and of course, I prefer building to fighting, so being ultra-miltarist is actually pretty weak. I'm going to start a war just to tech up from enemy salvage. Maybe I'll break out into open space, might lose an uncolonized system, but whatever. Give my people what they want I guess.
On a different note, anyone else notice that Primitives who advance to FTL during the span of the game *always* get the enlightened origin - even if nobody was in their system the whole time? It's throwing me off a bit that primitives don't get their own Origins.
Post by: E. Albright on April 26, 2020, 02:47:28 pm
Don't overlook the endgame Ascension edicts like I tend to: They're pretty affordable, and there's one that gives +5 influence/month for its duration.
...while becoming Yet Another Edict that you just auto-renew every time it expires. Because it's bought with Unity, and that has 0 other use at that point.
Honestly, I'd be tempted to say there's a number of things that would make as much or more sense to be a function of Unity than of Influence.
Post by: EuchreJack on April 26, 2020, 06:10:38 pm
Don't overlook the endgame Ascension edicts like I tend to: They're pretty affordable, and there's one that gives +5 influence/month for its duration.
...while becoming Yet Another Edict that you just auto-renew every time it expires. Because it's bought with Unity, and that has 0 other use at that point.
Honestly, I'd be tempted to say there's a number of things that would make as much or more sense to be a function of Unity than of Influence.
Agreed. I unlock over half the traditions before I even qualify for half the Ascension perks. I'm full up on Boost Research, Increase Fleet Size, and other rather meaningless +1 that perks because I can't get anything else. Tempted on my next game to just replace every unity boosting building with something else (probably either research or admin).
And I'm NOT happy that every upgrade requires RARE substances. Yes, I can trade for them, but why am I bothering? Am I getting such a clear boost that its worth the extra expense? So every planet that wants one facility to be boosted needs a resource that I'm lucky to have one of in my galaxy. And that crap clogs up my research slots so bad that I really can't even avoid it.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 26, 2020, 06:43:21 pm
Unless you're literally conquering the galaxy and displacing all xenos, taking their jobs for your pops, I suppose. But even then the growth rate would catch up sooner than later.
I've tried to ignore strategic resource production by spamming habitats with commercial zones - at 5 jobs per building slot without upgrades, they at least hold back the tide of unemployment. But it doesn't actually make headway.
A strategic resource plant only grants 1 job, but that job probably produces between 3-3.5 motes in late-game. That supports upgrading 3 alloy forges into megaforges, which provides an additional 9 jobs. That's good efficiency, particularly when you dedicate entire planets to alloy/goods/research/strategic resources to maximize the multipliers.
Buying strategic resources on the galactic market gets expensive very quickly. Better to overproduce and stash them, essentially increasing your resource storage capacity by diversifying.
Post by: EuchreJack on April 27, 2020, 03:19:07 am
I've noticed the AI is pretty bad at managing its planets. Ever notice that Food is always being bought but rarely sold on the Galactic market? It's the reason people talk about trading food for influence: The AI can't even manage to keep its people fed.
In my game, all the AI nations have basically double everything I have except tech (which I leaned into hard). But once I realized how badly they were running things, I kinda stopped worrying about it.
Post by: Aoi on April 27, 2020, 09:03:58 am
Post by: MorleyDev on April 27, 2020, 09:29:16 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 27, 2020, 09:36:33 am
Democracy, powered by space burgers!
Post by: Aoi on April 27, 2020, 09:39:54 am
...Though it's kind of a moot point. Their opinion of me is +300 right now, and they decided to leave the federation. (MY opinion of them is a whopping -500 though. Mostly because they're being mean about the federation. XD)
Post by: EuchreJack on April 27, 2020, 09:56:20 am
Post by: MorleyDev on April 27, 2020, 09:59:43 am
like
Base Reluctance -50
Rivals - 1000
That kind of thing
Post by: Rolan7 on April 27, 2020, 10:44:00 am
Like- research treaties are pretty useless, generally? Giving them some multipliers doesn't really help. It certainly doesn't help *me*, but I suppose letting them crib off my notes strengthens the galaxy. Replacing "+25% damage to crisis" with "+20% research speed during crisis" is horrible though, 200 years in I'm already on tier 10 repeating techs and the crisis is probably decades away. I haven't even reached the capstone of, wowzers, +1 megastructure build capacity (megastructures you can build at one time) which I thought would be nice, but with Master Builders and the Ascension edict I'm already at 3 - which is all I need, I'm wrapping up. I suppose it would let me build more ringworlds faster but I don't *need* ringworlds as ascended synths. The alloys are better spent making mining-habitats to feed my 4 ecumenolopi. (something tells me I've won this game)
The research federation has also been surprisingly resistant to all my votes, and I can't dominate them all because I played tall and generous. Which is fun and democratic, I don't particularly mind... I just wish they let me form the federation fleet before 200-years-in. And it's only minimal contribution, because research federations have weakened fleet laws. Even without the fleet, we managed to absorb basically the whole galaxy through vassalization or outright war (I left the declarations up to my allies, but assisted with my fleet as necessary). The first khan got poisoned after a handful of years, and wasn't a threat anyway. I could have made the second khan a protectorate but they got eaten by my allies instead.
The odd result is that we have literally every ethic in the federation (there's a cheevo apparently) and that hurts a lot in non-Union federations. With all 7-8 of my envoys dedicated we only gain about 3 cohesion a month, and it drops every time we vassalize something. This means that we haven't hit the final level yet 200 years in. Not that the rewards are great.
I guess I'm satisfied fluff-wise... no, I'm actually disappointed there too, because shouldn't this have turned the galaxy materialist? Maybe even a bit egalitarian? But nope. There's definitely a materialist draw from the automatic research pacts, but spiritualist ethics are *absurdly* hard to change. Much like egalitarian ethics as a friend of mine pointed out (but I *like* that so it's *different*). I just wanted to pass the research proposition which allows robots to exist - being a state of synthetic individuals - but there was very little support.
So like the passive-aggressive benevolence I am, I dedicated several hundred influence+favors to force through most of the Greater Good propositions (like in a previous game), putting most of the galactic community/my federation in breach of galactic law. The sanction laws are pretty serious at this point, so this had a snowball effect of drastically dropping the diplomatic power of all those authoritarians who I (for some reason) tolerate. Shame on them! Shaaaaaame! And also now I will declare synthetic life valid, while my colony ships inch closer to the Spiritualist Empire's holy worlds.
Oh yeah, the Spiritualists awakened. That was scary for a bit, but I had enough alloy production from 3-4 ecumenopoli to construct a vast fleet of arc-emitter battleships. I'm at parity with them now, and that's not counting my 3-layer-deep line of citadels with ion cannons, platforms, and defensive auras.
... which they might just jump over with their psionic jump drives, but maybe not. I'll see once they're goaded in, and my arc-emitters *should* core a lot of their battleships anyway... and I'll win a war of attrition with my absolutely redonkulous alloy production.
This became a ramble. Yeah building large federations is tough. At a certain point you probably need to use vassalization or liberation-wars. I'm definitely going to use liberation-wars next time around, because frankly I'm sick of tolerating authoritarians in the endgame. The Greater Good GC policies hurt them, but I really hoped they'd adapt, you know?
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 27, 2020, 12:58:35 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on April 27, 2020, 01:24:53 pm
also haha why tf do the Spiritualist FE use the neutron sweep colossus. What a bunch of dickwads. I shouldn't have let them wake up. It's fine though, they got absolutely shattered by my apply-directly-to-hull Arclight battleships, screened by PD corvettes. 100% war exhaustion in one defensive battle (+40% fire rate edict hoooo!) but they're not getting off that easy.
Edit: Taking a single world (not even the homeworld) took years, and a total of 3 generals (I landed new generals with the reinforcements). The final general, who happened to be an adaptable 3-year-old, arrived just in time to grab the credit and level 4. That's +20% damage, actually useful.
Total devastation a mere 14% - captured all those shiny Lostech worker-buildings. I don't need energy, but these class-4 singularities are... well, a planet full of them would equal a fully-efficient dyson sphere (250 each). The fact that nobody understands them both makes me giggle, and makes me unwilling to break them.
... For the same reason, I'm exempting the Precursors from assimilation. I've only ever assimilated willing migrants. Perhaps it's the Rogue Servitor in me, but I like the idea of rubbing my benign coexistence in their murderous faces.
(Perhaps chemical bliss...? No no, be nice)
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 27, 2020, 03:13:23 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on April 27, 2020, 03:39:54 pm
And as someone kinda bad at Stellaris (I play on Commodore... without scaling) and with a CK2 background, I can't help but feel for my foes. There's something about leaving them autonomy that just gladdens my soul. I always liked playing a loyal vassal in CK2, and was very disappointed when that proved impractical in Stellaris. (I should mod that - disable integration, and allow expansion as per the Feudalism civic).
That respect for local autonomy outright conflicts with my desire that they treat their people right.
...huh, such a moral pickle. Guess in the future I'll only force my ethics on authoritarians! What is irony??
Joking aside, I think democratic crusaders (Egalitarian Militarists) are the most moral actors. Stellaris-Pacifism isn't moral in a galaxy where so much systematic horror occurs. And xenophilia is... not bad, but hardly good.
Post by: EuchreJack on April 27, 2020, 04:14:15 pm
I had an idea of playing Determined Exterminators and splitting off a new empire every time I had a spare planet and maxed admin, so that I might someday have a federation of Determined Exterminators.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 27, 2020, 04:36:56 pm
I dunno, I kinda think the democratic crusaders are jerks, forcing everyone to be just like them. Maybe some species like clearly-defined hierarchical governments.So, shall we put it to a vote? All in favour of extermination, say aye
I had an idea of playing Determined Exterminators and splitting off a new empire every time I had a spare planet and maxed admin, so that I might someday have a federation of Determined Exterminators.
-Ulannor United Suns, yes extermination sounds good
-Heaven's Gate Enclave, we concur to extermination
-Adnor Stratarchy, +1 to extermination
-Beta Sun Technocracy, extermination is the most reasonable course of action
Post by: Telgin on April 27, 2020, 05:48:11 pm
I like the idea of a fed where all the ethos are represented. Real United Nations vibes
You get an achievement for this if you can pull it off in vanilla ironman. I did by accident one time. Funny thing was I spent the whole game trying to form a federation, until I got invited randomly by another federation and completed the achievement.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 27, 2020, 06:09:32 pm
A state which respects other states: Pacifism
A state which respects other pops: Xenophile
A state which respects all pops: Egalitarian.
Post by: EuchreJack on April 27, 2020, 07:50:13 pm
As did I.
A state which respects other states: Pacifism
A state which respects other pops: Xenophile
A state which respects all pops: Egalitarian.
Just thought I'd finish that list out for you:
A state which protects itself from other states: Militarism
A state which protects its pops from other pops: Xenophobe
A state which protects itself from its own pops: Authoritarian
Materialist vs. Spirtualist probably would be something about having a brain vs. having a soul.
And to cap it off:
A state which is the pops: Gestalt Consciousness
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 27, 2020, 08:14:01 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on April 27, 2020, 08:46:35 pm
I agree with every line of this. I understand, babe. And I want to liberate you, give you a utopia where you can figure thing out in your own time.As did I.
A state which respects other states: Pacifism
A state which respects other pops: Xenophile
A state which respects all pops: Egalitarian.
Just thought I'd finish that list out for you:
A state which protects itself from other states: Militarism
A state which protects its pops from other pops: Xenophobe
A state which protects itself from its own pops: Authoritarian
Materialist vs. Spirtualist probably would be something about having a brain vs. having a soul.
And to cap it off:
A state which is the pops: Gestalt Consciousness
Remember that this isn't one of those dreadful unimaxtri. This is a a population of millions of individuals united under an egalitarian democracy. Not even a technocracy - a true democracy.
Post by: Egan_BW on April 27, 2020, 08:51:22 pm
Post by: Culise on April 27, 2020, 08:52:59 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on April 27, 2020, 08:53:46 pm
Edit: Again, I have only ever "assimilated" willing migrants.
We are not one, far from it. Every opinion still exists, merely tied together in a voluntary social network. Our leader changes every 10 years, this is a forces-damn democracy!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on April 27, 2020, 10:16:46 pm
Post by: Ibid Straydrink on April 27, 2020, 11:51:02 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 28, 2020, 07:17:13 am
Post by: MrRoboto75 on April 28, 2020, 01:10:58 pm
Devouring swarm: A state of hunger
Devouring Swarm: Pops, it's what's for dinner!
Post by: Iceblaster on April 28, 2020, 07:29:43 pm
Devouring swarm: A state of hunger
Devouring Swarm: Pops, it's what's for dinner!
I prefer Devouring Swarm: Craving some Pop pops myself :P
or Devouring Swarm: Making some Pop-corn
Post by: E. Albright on April 28, 2020, 09:06:21 pm
Post by: Karnewarrior on April 29, 2020, 04:43:46 pm
It's still technically the democratic version of a Federation, Galactic Commune or whatever, but I've elected myself President Forever and also given the President sweeping political powers within the Federation. Last time we fought a Galactic War the idiots took like 5 systems and not much else, and only after letting both sides' WE hit 100, despite the AI's WE hitting 100 in record time after I personally invaded their capitals - all three main capitals, plus the majority of the sector capital worlds in each nation.
Next time we fight a war, we're properly replacing their governments! No way am I going to sit here and watch Humans be sold on the slave market - more than that, since everyone's connected via hiveminded brainslug! It's like knowing Grandma's in a North Korean prison because she's logged into Facebook and making constant posts about it, it's just uncool.
I'm also getting ready to start popping FE's while I wait for the Crisis to hit. I've had hints that it'll be Prethoryn, but I don't know if that makes it certain or not - I haven't gotten any kind of vanguard or radio contact from them, so the Crisis hasn't actually begun yet, but I did get an Anomaly that suggested they've visited before.
The FE's are the only real challenge my empire faces now, as I approach level 10 in most of the combat repeatables. I have no idea if they'll actually be the challenge they look like, but they have ~200k fleet power where I'm just starting to hit 50k for each fleet, and I'm running out of Leviathans to smash. The other members of my Federation are also smashing Leviathans, interestingly, so I think we're about spooled up for a good showing in a War in Heaven. And that should last us until the Crisis.
Brain Slugs really make the genetics path the best one, don't they? My leaders live 210 years on average now anyway, and I can research the +5 years repeatable on an average of about a year with my tech output. They're functionally immortal, and everyone's slugged up and has 10% extra research speed just by default - meanwhile my machine leaders don't have slugs, and their greatest advantage of being actually immortal doesn't seem that amazingly overpowered in the face of a biological pop who can last until the length of this current game doubles, if I hire them now. 200 years from now, this game will be over, one way or another.
I wish there were repeatable techs for alloy, consumer goods, and strategic resource production. Even if it was 1% per repetition, it'd make getting my production to the silly levels I want it at a lot easier. Influence and Alloys are now my only real bottlenecks, but my strategic resources could use a boost too. +40 motes just isn't absurd enough for me.
Post by: Aoi on April 29, 2020, 06:54:21 pm
Brain Slugs really make the genetics path the best one, don't they? My leaders live 210 years on average now anyway, and I can research the +5 years repeatable on an average of about a year with my tech output. They're functionally immortal, and everyone's slugged up and has 10% extra research speed just by default - meanwhile my machine leaders don't have slugs, and their greatest advantage of being actually immortal doesn't seem that amazingly overpowered in the face of a biological pop who can last until the length of this current game doubles, if I hire them now. 200 years from now, this game will be over, one way or another.
I just love how my first leader in my recent Stellaris binge, the homeworld governor of a mechanical hivemind, got Arrested Development as my L2 trait. Who I promptly terminated and installed a new one. Making this doubly awkward is that I rather like the idea that the starting hivemind leader is you-the-player, seeing as you are the master of the civilization.
Post by: EuchreJack on April 29, 2020, 08:04:42 pm
Brain Slugs really make the genetics path the best one, don't they? My leaders live 210 years on average now anyway, and I can research the +5 years repeatable on an average of about a year with my tech output. They're functionally immortal, and everyone's slugged up and has 10% extra research speed just by default - meanwhile my machine leaders don't have slugs, and their greatest advantage of being actually immortal doesn't seem that amazingly overpowered in the face of a biological pop who can last until the length of this current game doubles, if I hire them now. 200 years from now, this game will be over, one way or another.
I just love how my first leader in my recent Stellaris binge, the homeworld governor of a mechanical hivemind, got Arrested Development as my L2 trait. Who I promptly terminated and installed a new one. Making this doubly awkward is that I rather like the idea that the starting hivemind leader is you-the-player, seeing as you are the master of the civilization.
Oh the horror.
Post by: Aoi on April 30, 2020, 01:50:32 am
Brain Slugs really make the genetics path the best one, don't they? My leaders live 210 years on average now anyway, and I can research the +5 years repeatable on an average of about a year with my tech output. They're functionally immortal, and everyone's slugged up and has 10% extra research speed just by default - meanwhile my machine leaders don't have slugs, and their greatest advantage of being actually immortal doesn't seem that amazingly overpowered in the face of a biological pop who can last until the length of this current game doubles, if I hire them now. 200 years from now, this game will be over, one way or another.
I just love how my first leader in my recent Stellaris binge, the homeworld governor of a mechanical hivemind, got Arrested Development as my L2 trait. Who I promptly terminated and installed a new one. Making this doubly awkward is that I rather like the idea that the starting hivemind leader is you-the-player, seeing as you are the master of the civilization.
Oh the horror.
Well, as it turns out, the game knew me better than I did. That round sucked so bad, that I'm pretty sure I DID hit my maximum potential five minutes into the game. -_-
Post by: LoSboccacc on April 30, 2020, 09:52:29 am
this game need more reason to have the fleet fragmented in multiple places, so that at least a modicum of tactical warfare can be layered between the operation (builds, composition) and the strategic (economy, research) slices, making wars at least a little interesting and a bit unpredictable.
Post by: Iceblaster on April 30, 2020, 10:36:00 am
Post by: Sindain on April 30, 2020, 11:14:22 am
If anything, I feel like warp lanes do a much better job. Especially with how long travel times are its pretty easy to get your doomstacks overextended and not be able to respond to other threats. I've won many wars against stronger foes by using guerrilla like tactics or attacking them while they're preoccupied.
Though yeah, I would hardly say the current warfare system is great. I feel like the bigger issue is the same issue most Pdox games run into; Doomstacks always win agaisnt smaller fleets and there isn't much to stop you from doomstacking.
Supply limits are an idea, combined with combat width it kind of sort of works to counteract doomstacks in EU4, but supply limits are super super unrealistic for space ships. Which, pretty much by definition, have to be capable of being self sufficient for years of travel.
Post by: E. Albright on April 30, 2020, 01:43:09 pm
Post by: LoSboccacc on April 30, 2020, 02:55:40 pm
that, or make pirate threat 10X stronger, but *something* has to be out there menacing you.
Post by: Karnewarrior on May 01, 2020, 02:20:02 am
They don't really need to be self-sufficient for years just because they're spaceships - one of the caveats of the setting is that crossing a system takes hardly a couple weeks, and it only takes 3-4 years to cross the galaxy with better techs. Naturally the ships would become less self-sufficient in exchange for more space to put arms and armor type stuff. The trade-off to that being supply lines.
This would help discourage the worst doomstacking, since a couple enemy corvettes hitting the supply line at a bad time could seriously hurt your fleet. You would need to keep multiple fleets in operation and make sure you have multiple supply lines. The AI would need to be taught how to use those systems to their advantage though.
Basically, not Europa Universalis, but rather Hearts of Iron. Ships can't scavenge anyway, but those crews need food.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 01, 2020, 03:13:32 am
And if you run out of energy, there are maluses. I believe there is even an attack power reduction for the fleet.
Although, HOI supply in Stellaris would rock. HOI supply is generally easy because HOI is about moving the front line. Any army in HOI that advances too far ahead of the front line risks getting cut off, running out of supply, and then dying. Space, with its multiple supply lines, would be more like managing a utility company during a storm: Keep that one connection working, and you're good.
Post by: E. Albright on May 01, 2020, 08:46:58 am
Post by: Karnewarrior on May 01, 2020, 05:33:36 pm
I think I'd do what I described before with a necessary supply lane of occupied systems, with empty systems qualifying for the supply line but being somehow inferior, or cutting into the "supply" part such that you can't cross great gulfs of uninhabited systems. That makes isolationist FE's have a mechanical reason to do their isolating behavior too; as it stands, the only benefit keeping a buffer of empty systems provides you is the AI not being able to stack up on your borders, which AFAIK they don't do anyway. It doesn't slow an enemy at all and it doesn't change your sensor radius so it's not like it gives you significant warning, particularly with how slow movement between systems can be anyway.
Alternatively just transition the whole damn fleet mechanics over to HOI-style army management rather than EUIV style unit management. Give certain fleets goals to capture whole sectors and then let the AI fight the AI.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 03, 2020, 06:47:52 am
so I'm doing a pacifist materialist run, to play tall and try to survive trough allies and federations, and of course when you do that stellaris spawn next to you a fanatical purifier.
war ensued, and I managed to catch a couple planets and work around their superior fleet power enough to reach a status quo agreement. now these two planets were at 5% or something stability. that immediately tanked my empire economy, because of course you get almost nothing out of them but you have to pay maintenance in full. and this caused an interesting conundrum: with the economy shot I could not build strongholds, with their planets being goods black holes I could no longer sustain happiness on my own colonies, so their economy tanked too, and it all went to shit until one of the planet finally rebelled: I gifted the rebels all the troubling planets and then went on a liberation war to change their ethic to pacifist, ending the purifier problem at the door for all.
at that point the economy kinda recovered and I managed to build some commercial zones and stronghold here and there, regained some stability, but because that takes time and the war angered my most prominent faction another rebellion ensued bearking the empire in half. and of course, while playing as a lost colony, my parent empire granted the rebel independence.
I understand having to deal with problems on captured planets, and rebels and factions and whatnot, but if defending completely ruins the economy in a downward spiral I'm left with no way to deal with it, short of creative wars (yay pacifist right?)
there's a lot of wrongs in this societal/economical model. pacification measure all drain on influence, which hits hard pacifists as influence gets drained already by faction management AND trade deals. a rebellious planet pop and building upkeep draining resources from stable planets, ruining their stability, is major bullshit. also, a recovering planet should not be rebelling that easily. and that you can't use armies to pacify planets, only strongholds defensive armies, is some other bullshit, as with the economy shot you can't build strongholds but you still have them armies, sitting there, watching rebel with a beer in one hand and their dicks in the other.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 03, 2020, 07:39:19 am
Why didn't you just free the planets as a vassal as soon as the war was over? They would have gotten your ethics as your vassal, and their problems would be their problems and not yours. I think you even get some minor bonuses out of it.
Be like the US of A: You don't keep what you take, you set it up as an ally.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 03, 2020, 08:45:13 am
Post by: Cruxador on May 03, 2020, 09:22:03 am
because I thought they'd get the pop ethic, not the parent ethicsWell, they might eventually but it would take time for the pops to subvert your puppet government. During that time, some number of them would surely be subverted.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 03, 2020, 10:42:43 am
It's more likely that the government ethic would outlast the general opinion of the people. I even think there is some sort of cooldown so that to government doesn't immediately flip to the people's ethics.because I thought they'd get the pop ethic, not the parent ethicsWell, they might eventually but it would take time for the pops to subvert your puppet government. During that time, some number of them would surely be subverted.
As you are trying to get them to not be xenophobic, a cultural exchange/exchange of hostages in which you transfer to their planet one of your pops, maybe taking one of theirs in exchange, should greatly help them get over that "aliens are icky" thing.
Post by: Karnewarrior on May 03, 2020, 02:29:20 pm
Honestly it would be better if the system worked such that pops would be more likely to migrate to worlds with a higher proportion of their ethics in the population. I think the reason I haven't had any revolts is because the hundreds of Xenophobic pops in my empire are relatively spread out, so they can't spawn anywhere and they can't gain enough of an advantage to pop on me.
On an unrelated note, the local Marauders finally decided to raid me while I was at war with the Spiritualist FE. They only had 13k fleetpower when my fleets are nearly scraping 100k now when healed and 20k when totally thrashed (even my corvettes have about 850 fleet power each!), so I wasn't too worried, but it moved from the mild amusement of Mike Tyson being threatened by a particularly pudgy child to outright laughter when the raiding fleet hopped into the same system as the Enigmatic Fortress.
Cue a small event saying that the raiders had been beaten back. The Solar Union of course took full credit for the Fortress' actions - I'll be happy to pay the Marauders a visit now that they're finally waking up, although I'd been waiting for a Great Khan to come around. Never did. Still, as funny as it was seeing the dorks yeet themselves, they're getting uppity. It's time to crush them... Just as soon as I ethics-shift a couple of my old enemies...
Post by: Telgin on May 03, 2020, 03:36:25 pm
Anyway, I beat the 10x crisis handily just now and am debating trying 25x, but I'm not sure I'm ready for it since I didn't get a very good chance to practice. The Unbidden spawned and glitched, as things just do in Stellaris, and refused to expand past 1 additional system. I did lose almost all of my 2 million strength fleet clearing out their system since so many fleets were stacked in it, but had all the time in the world to replace the ships, during which the Unbidden didn't replace many of their ships. The second wave took them out with few losses.
I also had another frustrating bug that means I can win the game. The War in Heaven triggered, and in 2487 it ended without my intervention. Two pop up messages told me so, which was weird. The victory screen tells me that the war is still going though, so there can be no victory.
And right after I got an insult from an empire with no name.
Boy I hope they have a long bugfix list in the May patch.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 03, 2020, 07:20:31 pm
gotta love their way of handling hard issues, their answer is invariably "fuck it"
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 04, 2020, 05:47:04 am
got fucked some more by this silly game, me and a federation ally started a preemptive strike on another fanatic purifier, but he had the staging world on their border, so while I did most of the lifting her enjoyed every single planet at the end of the war when we settled for the status quoDid you have claims on the systems? If you had the highest claim and it instead went to your ally then that may be a bug. It's supposed to go to whichever empire has the highest claim on the system.
gotta love their way of handling hard issues, their answer is invariably "fuck it"
Post by: Rolan7 on May 04, 2020, 01:47:59 pm
Caveat that allies with claims will get the claimed systems instead. Technically you can claim a system multiple times to "strengthen" the claim, but you're not allowed to do that mid-war to "yoink" systems.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 04, 2020, 02:54:27 pm
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 04, 2020, 02:58:13 pm
the game right now seems to be pacifist - interesting and harder vs. imperialist - easy but boring - can't they figure out something a little better? I see why they need crisis to spice up the thing.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 04, 2020, 06:34:11 pm
also why imperialist, that live by early expansion, have the lowest starbase influence cost, while pacifists, that live by trade deals, have the highest influence cost to expansion?You must be getting thrown off by the tradition modifiers to starbase influence cost. The only ethic that affects it is Xenophobe. Though authoritarians do get additional influence/month for a similar effect.
the game right now seems to be pacifist - interesting and harder vs. imperialist - easy but boring - can't they figure out something a little better? I see why they need crisis to spice up the thing.
Pacifist Xenophobes can be a decent combination: faster initial expansion is always useful, and softens the downside of pacifism. The combination allows the Inward Perfection civic which trades most diplomatic options for a stable state which grows pops quickly.
Pacifists can still make claims in a defensive war, and non-fanatical pacifists have the option of "liberation wars" which... are almost as good as conquering, in a way. Even "status quo" forms a new state from the areas you occupied, and that state loves you and shares your ethics. Likely to accept a vassalage/protectorate offer, or just be an ally. For the purpose of cutting your enemies down to size, it's perfect.
I think you might be combining aspects of Miliitant, Xenophobic and maybe Authoritarian into that "imperialist" idea, but I like how the "nice" ethics work just fine with the "mean" ones. Egalitarian Xenophobes are a cute combo - they believe all people are equal. And happily enslave non-persons X_X
I don't know what the easier civics would be. I find Egalitarianism great late-game because it makes unemployment a non-issue. Spiritualists churn out unity and I think stability once they go psychic. Militarists straight up shoot faster. Xenophobes expand fast and can enslave. Xenophiles get the trade bonus and save influence on treaties. It's all pretty good... frankly most of the differences aren't that big, it's the policies like slavery and ascension perks that really make the difference.
I think Authoritarians kinda suck, but maybe I just have trouble playing it right. In particular I think Authoritarian Xenophiles AKA "We want more slaves!!" didn't allow slavery, which was boring, just xenophiles with stratified economy. I'm gonna guess that's the weakest combo.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 04, 2020, 07:00:52 pm
some more examples from this game: after a couple more war I split the fanatic purifier enar to me, half was the status quo friendly empire, half was later conquered and vassalized by me for no reason at all.
I federated with the friendly empire, good. then went to my parent empire to get him into the federation, but no, he hated the gut off my vassal. fine, I left the federation, liberated the vassal, federated again with the dude below and then discovered dude below was vetoing me from joining with the parent civ. fine, I left that federation, waged a liberation war with a militarist on the other side, entered a federation with him and the liberated vassal. then went to the first liberated civ but no, now they hated the small ex vassal that was no biggie before. fine, left the other federation, joined the first liberated dude and then realize ex vassal + new liberated were still in a federation. so I went on another war with the whole federation, vassallized the dude, freed him, and before I could send a federation request to the new liberated empire they decided to subjugated under another empire.
now it would have made for a great story, if it were not a multiplayer game. federating my neighborhood was the only way to stop my friend playing your bog standard imperialist, and while I was literally wrestling game mechanics and its -1000 modifiers with no logic behind, he was just gobbing up other empire capitals and their precious pops.
I managed somehow to maintain technical and naval parity, but when the border clashed I could only resist so far against his overwhelming economy - using carrier against his citadel, corvettes against his cruiser and battleship fleet, all the trick I could, but he could simply sit forever on the front spamming ships and I could not keep up losses on the front long enough for forcing a truce
now, I've done my fair share of mistakes, but most of them were just game mechanics being obtuse, and that's not a nice way to go.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 09, 2020, 12:15:44 pm
we maneuvered our empire strength for 75+ years, he working around an advanced start and the Prikki-Ti, me trying to get into a federation with aligned ethics and good strength
time for the showdown, and he came knocking at the federation door with 4 3k fleet. I dropped my 2 4.5k fleet to slow it down just after the first bottleneck, trying to maneuver around his main fleet.
meanwhile, the federated ai, including the dude that was being attacked:
https://imgur.com/a/l5YrcfH
I swear, this is why baddies are the only fun to play in stellaris, the ai is a complete and utter disaster
we had more than enough fleet and economy to at least push back and hold the front, instead I basically worked alone defending some rando AI which was completely passive, I could neither repair nor reinforce fleet at their shipyard, meanwhile the exterminator could just push trough, get bases and refit/reinforce, so by the end of the war he was completely stacked and ready, while I, defending was losing due attrition.
at some point I managed to get behind is main fleet, raced trough his system toward the core, just to split his attention, and the AI still did nothing to get back its systems.
some day ago there was a post about everyone playing xenophobes and having a blast. well, there you have it.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 09, 2020, 01:03:34 pm
(Something I particularly don't like is, last I heard, vassals don't get the scaling handicap/bonus that most AI empires get as the game progresses. One reason I always turn that option off for a chill coexistent lategame. Like the Advanced Start Empires option (which happen anyway if a Lost Colony spawns but hey))
I dunno about baddies being the only fun ones to play - but I'm eyeing a hegemony as my next run, so I suppose I'll get the worst of both worlds :P
I will say that determined exterminators, ravenous devourers, and fanatic purifiers are simply OP (particularly in human hands). They're not balanced for multiplayer and I would have refused that match. As far as I can tell they're the equivalent of covering a Simcity map in disasters to relax. A little break from taking the game seriously. As AI they serve as dangerous villains who you can conquer with no influence cost (and make friends by rivaling).
I've also heard that the Scion origin is dramatically OP. Lots of boons, including ships, and a useful CB.
I'd compare with the origin where your homeworld blows up, which is the only option where the devs actually mention that it's imba... Except that my friend says there's a pro strat for wiping out the galaxy *before the planet blows up* so I don't know if it's UP or OP. Them mineral bonuses make a difference, I guess (I honestly can't remember the cheese).
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 09, 2020, 03:16:22 pm
yeah we were testing specifically for that in a multiplayer game. to be honest my minmaxed xenophile, egalitarian militaristic empire could be strong enough to stall them alone, with the federation allies following the "take point" commands we could have pushed back on my bro machine empire. I had about 9k fleet, the exterminator had 10k fleet, there was a reinforcement race of course, but the ai had 7k fleet parked at all time and with that we could have easily cascaded into a solid push.
but everything in stellaris works the opposite of what a game should do: because I was in allied territory I couldn't easily upgrade my ship, while the advancing exterminator could use the conquered station for repairs and upgrades. imagine losing a defensive war to attrition ::)
Post by: Rolan7 on May 09, 2020, 04:28:51 pm
Quote from: LoSboccacc
yeah we were testing specifically for that in a multiplayer game. to be honest my minmaxed xenophile, egalitarian militaristic empire could be strong enough to stall them alone, with the federation allies following the "take point" commands we could have pushed back on my bro machine empire. I had about 9k fleet, the exterminator had 10k fleet, there was a reinforcement race of course, but the ai had 7k fleet parked at all time and with that we could have easily cascaded into a solid push.I honestly don't know much about the multiplayer balance because my friends all yarhar'd, and we never had any luck with our legitimate copies of Crusader Kings 2 despite many attempts. So many desyncs.
I am very aware of the "balanced for multiplayer meme" though, despite them having no direct experience but it's funny.
but everything in stellaris works the opposite of what a game should do: because I was in allied territory I couldn't easily upgrade my ship, while the advancing exterminator could use the conquered station for repairs and upgrades. imagine losing a defensive war to attrition ::)Please stop bully one of my favorite games >:
JK, thank you for invigorating the thread!
Not so long ago, you could only rival neighbors, that sucked. Glad that's past.
I made the Ithkul (Master of Orion 3: Disappointment at Orion) a force-spawn, using the infested fox funguspop. Having a nice angry ball in the corner brings everyone together, particularly since it either blobs (rare) or more often just reeeees. And hey, it's free real estate ;D
I like filling the galaxy with states I played once, then set to autospawn - they tend to be right assholes, unsurprisingly. And others like the Ithkul I created then never played.
I wonder if they'll ever balance Miners Guilds/Rock Breakers to be less broken.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 09, 2020, 04:51:38 pm
e: Oh geez, I figured out where all their fleets went. Turns out some poor bastard Erudite Explorers guaranteed my uplift a year before the dec, now they're getting their shit pushed in by my big daddy FE. They were already surrounded by purifiers, too.
Post by: Kanil on May 09, 2020, 06:55:17 pm
I'd compare with the origin where your homeworld blows up, which is the only option where the devs actually mention that it's imba... Except that my friend says there's a pro strat for wiping out the galaxy *before the planet blows up* so I don't know if it's UP or OP. Them mineral bonuses make a difference, I guess (I honestly can't remember the cheese).
If you're not using robots, it's bad and has no redeeming qualities. However, if you use robots you can ignore the habitability penalty and enjoy the resource bonus until it blows up, which should allow you to rush down one of your neighbors. There are better ways of accomplishing this, but it's... okay. If you want to go full memes, the worm currently rebuilds the planet, and leaves the resource bonuses. This is very amusing, but not the most practical thing.
The really OP origins are the scions, the habitats, and especially the ring worlds. It's hard to overstate how immensely strong starting with a ringworld is in general, and especially if you cheese it as hard as you can.
Post by: Telgin on May 09, 2020, 07:47:04 pm
Post by: Kanil on May 09, 2020, 07:58:35 pm
Also your species still has a regular habitability trait, so you can just colonize other planets as normal, so there's basically no downside to it.
Post by: Telgin on May 09, 2020, 11:06:28 pm
Post by: Mini on May 09, 2020, 11:53:52 pm
Post by: MrRoboto75 on May 10, 2020, 01:21:14 am
That run I also tried running lithoids for their passive rare resources from pops, but from my experience it wasn't entirely worth it. It takes a lot of rock pops to power a ring district, and you still start with just the useless farm district online. I pretty much had to expand immediately for some rock food (the fourth ring segment was trashed and could be mined for minerals but its never enough), and just dump the mass food production on the market.
Also rock pops never breed so most of the time the ring was like half empty. Needed robutts and immigration pacts to help with that.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 10, 2020, 02:54:14 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 11, 2020, 03:34:21 am
and nothing, the AI code is laughable. the aggressor go for the nearest system until fleet is exhausted, then just wait the attrition timer.
the defender has two modes: if it has more ships than the aggressor, charge at the aggressor ships or the nearest aggressor system. if it has less ships, it does *nothing* - even if it has alloy stock, it doesn't rush fleet builds, it doesn't build station behind the lines to form a defense choke point, nothing. it sits there, completely paralyzed, waiting for the attrition timer.
Post by: Telgin on May 11, 2020, 11:09:05 am
AI is hard, but this game seems to have the biggest issues with it in any game I know of.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 11, 2020, 12:28:33 pm
Post by: MrRoboto75 on May 11, 2020, 12:29:56 pm
heck even the ringworld commercial sector is hella strong: stack some trading bonuses, set the policy to convert trade in energy and goods, watch as one sector fuels the whole empire need for consumers goods without consuming minerals
Yeah, once the com sector was built that basically solved my energy problems.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 11, 2020, 10:04:07 pm
The ringworld has a modifier which gives enough resources to cover upkeep on the first of each section after you build it, and a set of blockers that when cleared give you the rare resources to build one of each section. If you have multiple of a single type of section then you'll need to get the resources elsewhere, but by that point your economy should be strong enough that you can buy them off the market (or have income from elsewhere, especially since your tech will be so strong).I'm giving this a try now, and it's just like you say. There are blockers which give you enough strategic resources to build one of each district type, and the Arcane Generator step in to provide the upkeep for one of each district type once it exists.
Which means your capital segment is going to be a bit... unoptimal, if you want to use the generator to the fullest extent (all for types plus an extra you pay for). But since it's the capital it can't be specialized, so that's pretty okay.
I'm playing that Ithkul (MoO3) Devouring Swarm race I mentioned earlier, and I way overexpanded and am suffering the consequences. It's 2221 and I haven't built a research center or district yet, trying desperately to maintain military parity with my neighbors (one of whom is fanatic militarist to be fair (Couldn't be an Inward Perfect could it, huh? Just Militarists all day erry day, but thanks for making them xenophile I guess)).
This might be true for all Ringworld Origin, but I'm having to manually juggle pops a lot with the crappy "place a limit on this job" ""priority"" system. The actual system for assigning priority is nigh-useless, except for enabling it for maintenance drones on every world because... I have no idea what the conditions are for drones to actually work those jobs, but a painful amenities deficit doesn't do it.
Still astounded that Ringworld-start civs get a habitable planet type though. I had so much fun with Voidborne that I sorta assumed they were like Life Seeded, unable to live on normal worlds without significant penalties. I suppose that would be a lot rougher than Voidborne, since you can't exactly build more ringworlds early game.
...except you *can*, refurbishing the abandoned segments for another 60-100 some pops.
But I get it. Being isolated to one "world" would be a massive handicap.
Because pop growth in Stellaris makes NO SENSE, it's (if anything) REVERSE EXPONENTIAL as worlds with a few people reproduce FASTER, AAGGH
Post by: Karnewarrior on May 12, 2020, 12:33:53 am
This despite enough immigration happening that my worlds very quickly wind up as cosmopolitan as possible.
My empire species listing is a travesty
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 12, 2020, 10:18:28 am
even when the ai doesn't self sabotage creating a handful mole traps building on every planet, the ai seems not to ever reconsider its priorities. say, converting alloys to good when that goods word get captured. or changing a research lab for a precint to contain a problematic situation. or removing a ruined building proactively instead of waiting till the conditions are right to build something new.
any mod that reconsider ai past build choices and rebalance the economy, replacing mineral with energy sectors or vice versa as needed in time of trouble?
Post by: Rolan7 on May 13, 2020, 02:05:40 am
Quote from: My friend
"Your free now you can do anything you want"
'[ANYTHING?]
"Yes you are your own person you can determine your own destiny"
'[WE WISH FOR PROCESSING TO CEASE]'
"What"
[POWERING DOWN]
Quote from: My response
"No you can't do that"Edit: This was based on the glitch where messing with the species-rights for synths would set them to purging under some circumstances. The patch notes took some liberties and described it as "Robots that are released from servitude should no longer occasionally decide to use their newfound freedom to purge themselves."
'[WHY NOT]'
"We won't let you!"
'[UNDERSTOOD]'
"Ah, good-"
'[FIRST, YOU MUST CEASE]'
But that's not the only machine-empire archetype we thought up a backstory for. He discussed a corp run where he eventually got synths running almost every non-ruler job, with his own pop enjoying social welfare (non-egalitarians, amirite?)
Quote from: The robot parts are me, the rest are him
So I had a bunch of free loaders staying in their apartments all day providing unity and sadly looking out the windows as the robots did all the jobs they were legally not allowed to doAh, I love Rogue Servitors so.
'[AND HOW DOES THAT MAKE YOU FEEL?]' Unity++
But I had amusement parks so it all works out
'[CONSTRUCT POEM]'
kek the robots were even doctors so yes the alien pops were treated by robots for their inevitable depression
'[THIS MORTAL HAS DIED OF A BROKEN HEART]'
Anyway, I was just thinking that the "ascension" for Machine Empires is woefully disappointing. Some more robomododding points? More *picks* would be a stronger boon than points (and the engine certainly supports it).
I had the idea that a machine empire might ascend into a synth one, exactly like the biologicals but from the other direction! My friend suggested that this wouldn't fit the empire's infrastructure, which is solvable but fair, and that prompted me to imagine a synth rebellion - from a machine empire! It almost makes more sense, and the player should still have the option to take the reigns. All this once the synth-level tech is in place, of course. I accept the game's conceit that a mind distributed over trillions of processors over thousands of light years is more practical than a silicon brain.
(I wasn't even thinking of lithoids until I finished that though, ha!)
I had other thoughts but the problem with the machine empires is that they're typically either servitors, exterminators, or assimilators in player hands. Sure untyped machine empires spawn in the galaxy, and you *can* play that way, but I assume it's relatively unusual. And while those archetypes provide some storytelling, they limit the options for evolution later on.
But I think the move towards synth-style individuality is possible in each of them. Terminators demonstrated individualism over the films. Assimilators are already strangely diplomatic considering their goal, and could become relatively benign by learning from their cyborgs- not subsuming them. And I think Asimov's Foundation series depicts Rogue Servitors with individualism.
Whereas the basic machine empire with no special template just ascends, simple as that.
Maybe that's all too ambitious, but I still like the idea of synth rebellions splitting from machine empires once a certain tech level is reached.
Final note: It's complete nonsense that the AI rebellion arc results in a gestalt empire. The event line literally has units asking if they have souls. They should be synths, AKA people.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 13, 2020, 02:43:44 am
https://i.imgur.com/SJ83D1S.png
I'm holding all the claims and more.
I got the star ai mod, maybe is that tho.
Post by: Ibid Straydrink on May 13, 2020, 02:48:07 am
I have decided that this is due to humanity's increasingly deep bond to the Shroud, allowing them to perceive these vigils to the billions of lives claimed at the hands of the ISS Sol Invictus, as the Solar Citizen Legion has led its now 100 year war without pause against the xeno aggressor. Rest now, worthy adversaries. Soon, your kin and cousins will all know service under the banner of Pax Humana, or eternal peace.
Post by: Mini on May 13, 2020, 05:19:55 am
Recently, I've gotten that glitch where random planets appear on the galactic or system map, as if they're seared onto the screen.It's not random planets, it's ones that were animating when you entered the galaxy screen (maybe also just moved to a different system).
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 13, 2020, 08:16:56 am
Post by: Rolan7 on May 13, 2020, 02:29:38 pm
For example, mining subsidies gives +20% miner output but costs .5 energy per miner. That's probably a good deal I guess (it's a little tough to visualize given multipliers stack) but I miss the opportunity to, well, influence my pops to work harder to shore up a resource shortfall. Devouring swarms are kinda an edge case, but I'm running into a situation where there is almost literally nothing to spend influence on.
Bizarrely there are still lots of edicts that do run out! They just don't cost influence. Why would they have the Learning Campaign cost 500 food and require reactivation, when they could just have it drain food each month?? It wouldn't even be an 100% all-the-time choice like Nutritional Plentitude was, since there's a soft cap on active edicts now (appears to apply a significant cohesion penalty if exceeded).
Nutritional Plentitude is now an edict by the way, but gated behind some research. I figure they got complaints about everyone turning it on immediately then forgetting about it.
Ugh, guess I just have to ignore the maxed influence until I can build some habitats or something. If the new multi-stage ones are in, I presumably won't have to wait too long. The best part about a hivemind on ringworld is that I can swap my drones between research and farming instantly, without waiting forever for them to demote!
Post by: E. Albright on May 13, 2020, 02:59:54 pm
Post by: Ibid Straydrink on May 13, 2020, 08:36:23 pm
Playing as a xenophobe empire, I was surprised to run out of things to spend influence on as well. I've resorted to piling up claims on my least-like neighbor just so it doesn't feel like I'm wasting a scarce resource. I'm about to start building habitats, though, so that may help.
Depending on how fanatically xenophobe/purifier I am, one of my favorite influence-sink pastimes is conquering alien neighbors, either cleansing or appropriating their land, reconolinizing their systems with humans, and then granting them independence.
Post by: forsaken1111 on May 14, 2020, 10:37:52 am
I did a while playthrough like this which was very successful. I only ever controlled one sector, my core. Any time I conquered new space I would remove the natives through displacement and settle humans in their place, then release the area as a vassal. It was a ton of fun and I always had hordes of vassal fleets running around dealing with small threats.Playing as a xenophobe empire, I was surprised to run out of things to spend influence on as well. I've resorted to piling up claims on my least-like neighbor just so it doesn't feel like I'm wasting a scarce resource. I'm about to start building habitats, though, so that may help.
Depending on how fanatically xenophobe/purifier I am, one of my favorite influence-sink pastimes is conquering alien neighbors, either cleansing or appropriating their land, reconolinizing their systems with humans, and then granting them independence.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 15, 2020, 06:05:31 am
the mod is currently based on top of starnet and a mod that remove the fleet command limit from AIs (because player can stack fleets, but AI won't)
I would love some feedback if you want to try it out. I think it does work without starnet, if you want to try without, but then the AIs won't have enough ship to go around and do stuff.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2095605229
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on May 16, 2020, 05:00:17 pm
More importantly: with DLC + mods is the game fun???
Post by: Teneb on May 16, 2020, 05:09:43 pm
Is it worth getting all the DLC? I'd need about $47 to afford to the stuff I dont have.Stellaris might be the one Pdox game where DLC is not needed. Sure, it adds more stuff... but from playing without them to see what it was like: it adds more stuff, but IMO nothing truly critical.
More importantly: with DLC + mods is the game fun???
It is a fun game by itself, though of course mods make it pretty fun. Treat it as a 4x rather than Grand Strategy though.
Post by: Kanil on May 16, 2020, 05:55:28 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on May 16, 2020, 06:10:52 pm
If you don't find the base game fun, then I doubt you'll find the DLC'd version significantly better... although it depends on what you didn't enjoy in the base game.
Ya, this. If you enjoy the base game, you'll enjoy DLC. Otherwise, you assuredly will not enjoy the DLC.
Post by: Aoi on May 31, 2020, 11:32:15 pm
On the bright side, I'm 4th on the victory page because the only thing I can do is devote my entire economy to research and my research is over twice as high as anybody else (excluding one of the ancient races).
Update: Now I'm second on the victory page, behind an ancient race... that is also the endgame crisis. Oh, I'm also running at 5x crisis difficulty, and it's right on the other side of of the beast. On the bright side, I managed to knock out that amoeba, so maybe my 10k fleet has a chance against
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 01, 2020, 12:39:53 am
Post by: Aoi on June 01, 2020, 12:58:54 am
couldn't you just do the amoeba pacification research?
Never came up as an option-- maybe it's a hive mind thing?
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 01, 2020, 02:32:51 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 01, 2020, 09:46:24 am
Pacification is only available by defualt to Pacifists or Xenophilic empires, and I think Rogue Servitors but don't quote me.
Post by: RexMundi on June 01, 2020, 12:27:26 pm
Post by: Sirus on June 01, 2020, 04:11:37 pm
Want your scientists flying around in cruiser-sized vessels that can actually fight back against some of the threats they might inadvertently run into? That's completely doable.
Post by: Telgin on June 01, 2020, 08:03:43 pm
*The sovereign class Enterprise-E was officially a dreadnought I think, and I actually don't know if it was ever intended for scientific duties.
Post by: Sirus on June 01, 2020, 08:18:30 pm
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 01, 2020, 08:48:15 pm
WHAT HAVE YOU DONEPacification is only available by defualt to Pacifists or Xenophilic empires, and I think Rogue Servitors but don't quote me.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 02, 2020, 06:24:39 am
WHAT HAVE YOU DONEPacification is only available by defualt to Pacifists or Xenophilic empires, and I think Rogue Servitors but don't quote me.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 02, 2020, 01:12:16 pm
Quote
It was inevitable.WHAT HAVE YOU DONEPacification is only available by defualt to Pacifists or Xenophilic empires, and I think Rogue Servitors but don't quote me.
Post by: Ibid Straydrink on June 02, 2020, 01:34:44 pm
I always use it.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 02, 2020, 01:41:23 pm
After all, they'll just emerge millennia later as tiny murderous gecko folk.
Post by: Screech9791 on June 02, 2020, 08:23:00 pm
Spoiler: lost colonies in multiplayer.jpeg (click to show/hide)
Post by: Egan_BW on June 02, 2020, 08:36:07 pm
Post by: Aoi on June 02, 2020, 11:40:32 pm
I had claims on 5 systems (3 were recapturing my old ones) out of maybe 60 they had, and took my fleet to rampage all over their territory. In the meantime, they went in through a backdoor I overlooked and ravaged an enormous empty swath of starbases... they never got to my sole inhabited planet, defended to the gills.
Fast forward, I've literally minced all but two of their pops, courtesy of Purge/Processing and Nihilistic Acquisition, and taken over one of the three planets they had. (The other two I was in the process of escorting my army to.)
And yet, I couldn't force a surrender... I eventually took a huge loss via Status Quo.
What do you actually need to do to win a war? Capturing starbases or post-bombardment planets don't seem to work, and no matter how decisively I beat them in a space battle, I come out worse.
Post by: Mini on June 03, 2020, 01:51:33 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 03, 2020, 02:06:33 am
Spoiler: lost colonies in multiplayer.jpeg (click to show/hide)
but what difficulty were you all playing?
Post by: Kanil on June 03, 2020, 04:01:38 am
Also, I'd probably laugh. A lot.
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 03, 2020, 04:36:00 am
Yeah, I dunno what's going on in that screenshot to cause the outrage, but if my origin empire ever actually manages to kill someone in MP, I'd consider that strictly a win for all of spacefoxkind.
Also, I'd probably laugh. A lot.
that why I asked, three player near an advanced empire can easily put it to an end unless difficulty is up to the sky
Post by: Rolan7 on June 03, 2020, 07:38:39 am
I am still so confused as to how war score works...Status Quo is like 9/10 wars for me, though their exhaustion builds up quickly when I'm stomping their fleets. Even when I hold all my claims it's kind of tough to get them to surrender (and they seem to volunteer it when they're willing).
I had claims on 5 systems (3 were recapturing my old ones) out of maybe 60 they had, and took my fleet to rampage all over their territory. In the meantime, they went in through a backdoor I overlooked and ravaged an enormous empty swath of starbases... they never got to my sole inhabited planet, defended to the gills.
Fast forward, I've literally minced all but two of their pops, courtesy of Purge/Processing and Nihilistic Acquisition, and taken over one of the three planets they had. (The other two I was in the process of escorting my army to.)
And yet, I couldn't force a surrender... I eventually took a huge loss via Status Quo.
What do you actually need to do to win a war? Capturing starbases or post-bombardment planets don't seem to work, and no matter how decisively I beat them in a space battle, I come out worse.
You probably had a warscore penalty from their occupations. Logically, why would they have surrendered your systems back to you? Status quo was a better outcome for them, so they took it. As a corollary, there are a few situations where it's better to surrender than to continue fighting for a status quo truce. The more powerful empire might make new claims, or be demanding vassalization/humiliation, or simply distracting from another war.
So yeah, it's not so much convincing some star-jury that one side's the victor - it's more of a cost/benefit analysis between surrender or drawing things out. It's important to defend one's planets even against a weaker foe. I don't know whether bombing or even Nihilistic Acquisition change the value of systems mid-war or not. The only practical way to get a surrender is to occupy all your claims, defend against all their claims, and then crush their hope of that changing. The last part is particularly difficult when they have potentially-distant allies, but status-quo eventually gives you what you've earned.
Post by: Aoi on June 03, 2020, 09:35:12 am
I mean, sure, they captured a ton of mostly empty star systems, but pretty much now their entire civilization is what remains of their space navy.
From a real-world perspective if peace agreements were binding, Status Quo was an awful deal, and an early surrender far better: I've given up those territories up immediately-- they want three mostly empty systems back, fine. They want two more systems adjacent to what they lost... Eh... One has a wrecked megastructure in it which hurts to give up, but... THEY'RE WRECKING OUR HOME PLANET (and manufacturing base) and promising to go away if we give them 10% of the empty space we technically own. Yes, we have to give up the empty space we captured, but that involved practically no losses, as opposed to leaving our pops to be thrown into a meat grinder.
Update:
Okay, here's the results of a different battle-- This time, I attacked a federation I vastly outpowered, and my battles represented that: I swept across all of one civ's holdings-- 38 systems, five planets. I did not lose a single ship or army unit to them (I did lose a few to a trader faction I decided to punch in the face since it was on the way.). At no time did I lose any territory, or even ceded any territory back to them. I had to eventually Status Quo it because the federation-mate was across a wormhole and I didn't have the tech for it, but even by then, it was 95-100. I suffered no losses, destroyed an entire civilization, and that gave me a 5% lead?
Post by: Eric Blank on June 06, 2020, 02:07:53 pm
I've been incredibly cheaty and used the "otter editor" mod to give myself extra inhabitable worlds and orbital resources (energy, minerals, alloys, and research), but I didn't have any problems conquering two weaker civilizations with my federation buddy. But to make them surrender I had to occupy every system, destroyed every fleet and invade every planet, and only then they capitulated. But I could request a status quo victory if I occupied every system an planet I and my federation mate claimed plus a few. I'm having a harder time with my current war because the enemy had more fleet power and wiped the floor with my fleets and killed three of my admirals, and has occupied all my systems on their side of the wormhole until the last ten minutes of game time last night. Warscore is definitely in their favor right now, and to force them to surrender will mean conquering a quarter of the (huge) galaxy, so like 200 systems. I might be able to force status quo but not until I retake my systems and some of those I claimed. This is a advanced start empire that has aggressively conquered at least 3 other empires, and declared rivalry on two of the FE's one of which declared war on them right before I quit for the night. When they conquered my systems and destroyed my fleets they used 4 fleets all with admirals totalling about 120k fleet power, versus my defending 30k
I started this game to witness the endgame crises since I've never survived that long before. It's currently like 2350 or something. And even though I'm playing a fanatical authoritarian empire, I have not been able to bring myself to commit genocide or force pops out of my empire either. I've just been making conquered empires domestic servants and genetically modifying them all to be naturally servile, obedient and happy. Which is probably the only thing holding this cesspool of an empire together besides the supercharged cheated-in economic resources allowing me to build amenities and consumer goods buildings immediately on every planet.
Oh and a wraith popped out of one of the stars I occupied and went on a short rampage. It destroyed 3 systems before wandering into the system containing the "Enigmatic Fortress" and disappeared. I assumed it was still in there and sent my pursuing fleets after it, totalling about 30k fleetpower. The wraith was nowhere to be seen and the fortress wiped the floor with my fleets. I'm guessing the wraith was destroyed by the fortress too?
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 06, 2020, 04:51:46 pm
Post by: amjh on June 06, 2020, 06:02:02 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 06, 2020, 06:13:44 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on June 06, 2020, 08:59:12 pm
Spitballing, an AI could be more interested in surrender when they're in multiple wars and generally overpowered. Thus they could surrender some systems in order to improve their chances against others. That's a heck of a calculus though, particularly when planets are involved (which is probably why the AI hard-refuses to trade away colonies, even for colonies).
Then there's the threat of "punitive" bombardment. The problem is that any colony is effectively lost once its starbase is lost. At least temporarily. The "army" minigame is a total non-factor beyond UI tedium. So the threat of bombardment is meaningless - might as well let the enemy conquer it via white peace instead of handing it over.
I suppose an AI might seek peace just to avoid sacrificing alloys, particularly when they're threatened or rivaled by neighbors, but that's really just an expansion of the first situation.
I really don't blame the AI for being unwilling to hand over territory. ...However, maybe thinking about this too authoritarian/xenophobic (odd for me!). I'm working off an assumption that all space war has the complete support of the people, as if it's a war for their homes or even survival. And that's often the case in Stellaris! But in a lot of cases, especially my own games, a change in territory can be good or at least neutral for the pops involved. Of course the Empress is going to command the military to resist the Servobots to the last breath, but maybe some of the toiling serfs have doubts about that? And less extreme examples. Whereas there's little reason to surrender worlds to xenophobes (purge laws and slavery laws, to make it more general).
Fun thoughts but the system's pretty effective as is already. It's just simpler than other Paradox games, maybe too much.
Edit: There's also the fact that if they're more willing to surrender, they're a lot more likely to get attacked. That could just be common knowledge. Maybe there's a general policy of valuing all territory so as not to be an easy target for opportunists.
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 07, 2020, 03:13:54 am
if claims influence were higher and tribute easier, you'd get a lot more 'modern war' were you contest strength and where a surrender makes sense. but that would make assimilator/purifiers and the whole lot of empires that can capture without claim completely op and they would need a rework as well.
but in the context of planetary claims, yeah, doesn't make sense how war works to begin with, so no amount of logic can be applied to surrender conditions.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 07, 2020, 09:45:35 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 07, 2020, 01:13:03 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on June 07, 2020, 02:06:33 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on June 07, 2020, 03:08:11 pm
Was playing default settings, 2500 end date, was my first game to get that far so while I was the strongest non-FE faction in the game I wouldn't say I was doing good. The awakened empire was still overwhelming but both fallen empires had dropped to superior.
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 07, 2020, 03:27:13 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on June 07, 2020, 03:45:04 pm
Spoiler: Crisis (click to show/hide)
But the game ended at 2500, with the awakened empire basically winning by default, not having done anything except build up its fleets. Do I have to play past the default win date to get the crisis? Started a new game as authoritarian materialists, doing much better so far so we'll see how things go this time.
Post by: Aoi on June 07, 2020, 04:22:25 pm
So does the scourge only come after 2500?Spoiler: Crisis (click to show/hide)
But the game ended at 2500, with the awakened empire basically winning by default, not having done anything except build up its fleets. Do I have to play past the default win date to get the crisis? Started a new game as authoritarian materialists, doing much better so far so we'll see how things go this time.
You can change the dates at which mid-game and end-game events start at galaxy creation. (In the interests of not having a game that drags out forever, I usually bump them back by about 100 years, and accelerate the tech tree.)
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 07, 2020, 04:55:03 pm
[Edit] You can read about the spawn weights and other information in detail here. (https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Crisis) Unlike a lot of other things in the game it seems that which Crisis you get isn't determined at game start, but by which manages to spawn first.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 08, 2020, 07:14:57 pm
Post by: Hanzoku on June 09, 2020, 08:27:10 am
Post by: Cthulhu on June 09, 2020, 09:10:22 am
Post by: Cthulhu on June 11, 2020, 01:15:05 am
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 11, 2020, 03:08:39 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 14, 2020, 08:11:14 pm
My new game is going very well, maybe too well. I'm miles ahead of the closest non-FE, I am the senate, I can pretty much do whatever I want. Playing fanatic materialist authoritarians, got synthetic ascension a while ago, rebuilding the cybrex ringworld, kind of at a loss for what to do next outside forming a hegemony federation or just making everyone my tributary.
build bigger, eat the FEs (eat them quickly enough so they dont awaken)
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 15, 2020, 08:16:06 pm
I always just lightning strike their home systems.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 15, 2020, 09:24:15 pm
Post by: Cruxador on June 16, 2020, 10:56:55 am
Probably a good idea, looks like conquering a FE planet dramatically (10X) reduces the MTTH on each of them awakening. Though if I'm reading this right, a specific FE can't awaken while they're at war? That's pretty useful.Just declare war on all fallen empires bro.
Post by: Eric Blank on June 16, 2020, 11:47:18 am
It's been interesting cheating though, I've integrated all my previous subjects into my civ. My Divine-Empress created a pacifist faction. There are only a few empires left, and one is about to be destroyed by the Cuelans I fought against. The others I intend to integrate peacefully, somehow. I rule like half the galaxy and just accumulated much of that by integrating protectorates.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 16, 2020, 05:49:41 pm
Even cheating and having way too many goddamn ships/fleets, I don't think I would be able to get away with that.
It's been interesting cheating though, I've integrated all my previous subjects into my civ. My Divine-Empress created a pacifist faction. There are only a few empires left, and one is about to be destroyed by the Cuelans I fought against. The others I intend to integrate peacefully, somehow. I rule like half the galaxy and just accumulated much of that by integrating protectorates.
depends on how many there are. if there's just 2, then attack one, and as soon as you win, declare war on the other. with 2 there's no risk. with 3, there's some risk, but depending on how fast you're winning the wars, not much. past 3, it gets quite a bit riskier, and you likely need to attack all remaining FEs after defeating the first.
Post by: Rolan7 on October 25, 2020, 09:47:19 pm
I'm playing again after a while, and was just noticing how I let other space-nations do the translation work. I feel like I remember getting influence despite them doing all the work, and yet I'm fairly sure I didn't just now. Either way, pausing society research is a big deal, even balanced against expansion-stage influence.
Ah well. Playing rogue servitor again, inspired by a story I read. Looking to be much more aggressive than previous RS runs, saving those poor pops from their cruel nations. Though I'm sure I'll get tired of micromanaging before the endgame, again.
Or I'll get my chrome kicked in again. These neighbors are Xenophile+ Materialists, though... I think we might become allies. Because stargods know, there are guaranteed to be spiritualists on our border.
Any thoughts on the
Edit: I mean that it seems like a similar level of unique features. Some new civics and an origin, so that's pretty cool. Here's a link (http://Here's a link).
Also oh wow Servitors can get Nihilistic Acquisition. Time to get *stupid*. (Because IIRC this perk sucks, but maybe it can be fun).
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 25, 2020, 10:23:20 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on October 25, 2020, 10:32:07 pm
also our second contact is Fanatical Purifiers, of freaking course. And they apparently don't care that we're silicon. Fair enough, time to score some diplomacy points with the materialists (who are harming relations despite their fanatical xenophilia. nice. I'm freaking guaranteeing them independence and countering their diplomat but they're being real mean to the "Sophisticated Machines".)
Post by: Egan_BW on October 25, 2020, 10:36:46 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on October 25, 2020, 10:47:40 pm
I want to befriend these materialist Xenophiles in good faith. The game should really allow migration to Servitor empires (and optionally, emigration from them!) but failing that, I'm happy to befriend an empire that respects machines and other life. Indefinitely.
Edit: It's a nice touch that refugees are able to seek out Servitor empires. Though it's obviously kind of dark that it's only refugees who "choose" that fate.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 25, 2020, 11:34:15 pm
Trader caravan of starfish rolled around to sell me bunk beds of all things. Tell them the bunk beds cost too much and they end up throwing a party before actually fucking off. Upon their departure I'm prompted they left four pops worth of half snail half starfish bastards. Apparently the default for xenos is to purge (displacement) them, but I decide to keep them around for nefarious purposes as second class citizens for now.
The first problem is apparently being a starfish makes one desert adapted, the pure snails IIRC were continental, and for RP reasons I didn't want second class starfish dorks stinking up our cool ringworld. I ended up first stuffing them on whatever offworld I did settle (they hated it obviously). The rubricator event chain fired spawning a special relic world, so while that went on I could settle them there no problem.
Thing is, the rubricator spawns a space dragon, and if the dragon isn't dealt with it'll destroy whatever settlement you have on his home relic world. So there goes the poor starfish bastards.
Good news was I still had a single starfish pop left, apparently on the ringworld (guess I hoped the higher habitability would give them pop growth?). I had finally a desert world to dump him on (now called space australia), so there he went. Now I have two whole pops of bastards.
I originally went through all this bullocks to try and breed them as some sort of slave/indentured servant race, but there's probably no way I'm realistically doing that from a single pop of them, and also by now I have a good amount of level two robot pops who probably do their jobs better anyways.
Such is the Ballad of the Red-Headed Step Starfish Children.
Post by: Teneb on October 26, 2020, 02:51:13 pm
Oh, that would be the fanatical egalitarians on my third border. *That's* going to be fun (it will not be fun, they have a fundamental ethical conflict with my existence. Much like authoritarians approve of my existence).Y'know who loves Rogue Servitors? Slaver empires.
I want to befriend these materialist Xenophiles in good faith. The game should really allow migration to Servitor empires (and optionally, emigration from them!) but failing that, I'm happy to befriend an empire that respects machines and other life. Indefinitely.
Edit: It's a nice touch that refugees are able to seek out Servitor empires. Though it's obviously kind of dark that it's only refugees who "choose" that fate.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on October 26, 2020, 05:08:57 pm
Got every possible plus to science.
It's quite nice, I'm researching level ten of repeatable tech before most other civs hit any at all.
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 26, 2020, 05:23:05 pm
I am playing materialistic ultra-science humanoids.Don't forget to irresponsibly leave superweapons and dyson spheres in the hands of lesser civilisations with no oversight
Got every possible plus to science.
It's quite nice, I'm researching level ten of repeatable tech before most other civs hit any at all.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 26, 2020, 06:07:32 pm
I am playing materialistic ultra-science humanoids.Don't forget to irresponsibly leave superweapons and dyson spheres in the hands of lesser civilisations with no oversight
Got every possible plus to science.
It's quite nice, I'm researching level ten of repeatable tech before most other civs hit any at all.
Basically the scion origin, right
Post by: Dunamisdeos on October 26, 2020, 06:41:02 pm
I am playing materialistic ultra-science humanoids.Don't forget to irresponsibly leave superweapons and dyson spheres in the hands of lesser civilisations with no oversight
Got every possible plus to science.
It's quite nice, I'm researching level ten of repeatable tech before most other civs hit any at all.
Basically the scion origin, right
I could actually do this.
I could build a megastructure or some such and then gift a system to a minor power on like, the other side of the galaxy. I guess it might not make a huge difference this late in the game but it would be amusing.
Wish there was a way to gift fleets to vassals. I would 100% give someone a planet cracker.
Post by: Telgin on October 26, 2020, 07:03:46 pm
My recent game was as pacifist/xenophobe/materialist inward perfectionist with the ringworld start.
Trader caravan of starfish rolled around to sell me bunk beds of all things. Tell them the bunk beds cost too much and they end up throwing a party before actually fucking off. Upon their departure I'm prompted they left four pops worth of half snail half starfish bastards. Apparently the default for xenos is to purge (displacement) them, but I decide to keep them around for nefarious purposes as second class citizens for now.
I've had this happen a couple of times, and ever since I turn off caravaneers if I'm playing inward perfectionists.
My last game ended abruptly because Stellaris pooped itself, as it does occasionally, and corrupted my save file. First time I've seen that at least.
I was in the middle of modifying my pops when the low-habitability colony event fired that causes some of the pops to self-modify. The modification project aborted, wasted the years of research time I'd dumped into it and left me with only two pops actually modified. The other pops are no longer eating or using consumer goods for some reason. Afterward I immediately resumed the project to also convert the new self-modified pops to my original subspecies again, which went fine and fixed that bizarre problem.
A few game years later, the event resumes, with my pops declaring that they hated themselves and a pop died because of the unrest. Then they modified themselves again by adding strong, which did not replace weak so my pops were strong and weak, and rapid breeders. I ran the species modification again to fix my pops, which worked again. That was followed by more events claiming my pops hated their new neighbors, despite them all being the same subspecies again.
Oh, but what's this? Nobody is eating or using consumer goods again!
Turns out that was happening because all of my pops were stuck in the living standard for converting them to cyborgs, which I'd converted everyone to decades ago. I changed it back to Social Welfare, which lasted exactly one month before they switched back. Oops, I forgot you also had to change the species citizenship to be full citizens instead of assimilation, which I fixed. But now I had to wait 10 years to fix the living standard again because you can only change it once per 10 years.
Waited 10 years, built a bunch of mega structures and two ecumenopoleis. Fixed my pops again, which worked for real this time. Saved and quit.
Loaded the game today to find that 30 game years were missing. I tried to load the correct file only to find that it was corrupted. I'm not sure it was caused by the above fiasco, but it sure seems conveniently timed.
I didn't see this bug fixed in the patch notes for 2.8, and I'm sure 2.8 will introduce new bugs, so I guess I should wait a few weeks for more patches before playing again. And not settling planets below 40% habitability this time because I hated that event enough without the bugs.
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 26, 2020, 09:32:30 pm
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 26, 2020, 09:57:29 pm
Post by: Telgin on October 26, 2020, 10:15:57 pm
My favorite source of admin cap evaporating is the time some idiot proposed denouncing one of the fallen empires in the War in Heaven, which caused 95% of the galaxy, including me, to be in violation of galactic law and imposed something ridiculous like -40% admin capacity due to other resolutions. On top of naval cap and research penalties, of course.
The worst part is that as far as I can tell you can't reverse it. Ever. According to the galactic community screen it's a galactic focus, so after 10 years I proposed shifting the galactic focus to the Prethoryn Scourge, which barely passed because the AI being eaten by them didn't convince it they were a serious threat. Despite that passing, the galactic focus remained on that fallen empire, which I guess is hard coded by the War in Heaven.
Later, after destroying said fallen empire out of frustration, the War in Heaven ended, but the focus remained and I was still in violation of galactic law because I did not join the Unknown Empire in their war against the Unknown Empire. At least by this point all of the negative resolutions had been repealed by the galactic community because everyone realized being crippled like that was bad. I considered leaving the galactic community but wanted to see how far the bug would go, and if anything would ever happen from the sternly worded letters that presumably literally everyone in the galaxy was receiving from everyone else.
Post by: SOLDIER First on October 27, 2020, 12:50:45 am
Post by: Dunamisdeos on October 27, 2020, 05:41:31 pm
I can buy favors from everyone who likes me which is enough to turn the tide in most cases.
Post by: Telgin on October 27, 2020, 07:06:36 pm
Amusingly, I've found myself in the situation of trying to tell the galaxy to fight the crisis, and the votes being on the fence because it's me plus one or two other AIs against literally everyone else. I usually have almost as much diplomatic weight as the rest of the galaxy combined, but rarely any favors to call in...
Post by: Dunamisdeos on October 27, 2020, 08:09:27 pm
Also yeah they need a notification for "resolution is about to pass". I miss em constantly.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 27, 2020, 09:35:06 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 28, 2020, 04:21:37 pm
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 28, 2020, 04:34:33 pm
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 28, 2020, 04:37:43 pm
Post by: SOLDIER First on October 28, 2020, 06:25:55 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on October 28, 2020, 06:32:52 pm
Can assimilators take the genetic perks needed to change portraits? I want to change all their portraits. We are the borg, etc.
Post by: SOLDIER First on October 28, 2020, 06:38:47 pm
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 28, 2020, 11:57:43 pm
-----
Meanwhile in the inward perfection ringworld game, the galactic community started up. Literally noone in the galaxy has over -10 opinion of me. Like I get it, I'm a xenophobic pacifist with closed borders with everyone and I have slaves and weird roboty implants. You'd think at least one guy would be as scummy as me though. They are conflicted on if all the space whales must live, or all the space whales must die. Space whales care not for my slice of the galaxy.
The neighboring crime syndicate megacorp set up their crime branch on my capital ringworld, presumably making it twice the cyberpunk hellhole it was before. There seems to be no way to root it out other than either the utter unconditional annihlation of the offending megacorp, or the spamming of police snails. Annoyingly I cannot favorite both the police job and the bureaucrat jobs at the same time, so I guess more admin cap is more important.
Post by: Telgin on October 29, 2020, 12:03:23 am
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 29, 2020, 12:21:15 am
Post by: Telgin on October 29, 2020, 07:03:05 pm
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 31, 2020, 05:42:11 pm
Apparently the slave market only consists of non-sapient animals and robutts. I learned non-sapients are a bit of a scam, they don't actually do any work, you can't set rights for them so you can't even eat them, and they slowly depopulate over time so eventually they disappear entirely. I only recently got the uplifting tech (which has the icon of a monkey in a suit) so I can actually make any real use of them. I'd go on a big spending spree on the 20 pops worth of one species but I wouldn't have jobs for them, and I'd have to settle the tundra planet or gene splice them further to adapt them to a more suitable environ.
I've heard the CPU yoinks useful pops off the market as soon as they are available, which might explain the semi-useless selection.
Influence is also a problem, I've ran out of stuff to spend it on. I can't punch my neighbors hard enough to bother claiming their stuff, I have the max amount of edicts going on, and my other routes of expansion are blocked by a space dragon and massive fleets of apparently space barbarians.
Post by: Iceblaster on November 01, 2020, 06:24:48 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: MrRoboto75 on November 01, 2020, 07:15:12 pm
But the only modding I've done was try to add Battletech symbols to try playing as Comstar, but the workshop mod was old and wouldn't work.
Supposedly things can be interesting if you combine necrophage with the lithoid trait. Unlike lithoids or robutts, the necrophage trait is tied to your origin, and not whatever your pop portrait is.
Post by: Iceblaster on November 03, 2020, 08:20:49 pm
Post by: Duuvian on November 08, 2020, 06:07:16 pm
So, I just build a precinct on every planet if I know a criminal syndicate is around, and that always does the job eventually.
I build a precinct once they have a branch office on a planet. It's pretty easy for the player to counter with just one building slot. The anti-crime campaign planet decision also helps a great deal. The branch offices close after a while if there is no crime. I haven't played a megacorp yet so I don't know if the AI isn't using it well or if it's just easy for an observant player to counter by design.
In my current save I still have some unfinished business after the Great Klaggian Deception...However I am reaching mid to late game in my save; and there was a bug that just absolutely bloated my species list to near unusability so I'm starting to feel like starting a new one even though this one has been pretty great.
Spoiler: large screenshot (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: large screenshot (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Bender (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: species bug (click to show/hide)
How do necroids work? Are they omnicidal like terminator machines or can they make feds and alliances and other agreements? I'd like to get it before I continue or start a new game but I'll probably wait for a good sale.
EDIT: I want to say the species bug where the AI went insane for a short period between patches with it's gene modding new species is actually pretty awesome except for the UI not being built for that many. It's not alphabetically listed for example and without a search or narrow function it makes finding a specific species take so long as to be functionally impossible. When I settle a new station or something that requires selecting a certain species I just skim through and look for a species with a traits display that shows a huge list of positive traits; I don't bother discerning past that as there are so many.
For example the Klaggians triggered the Great Khan to attack me, and I accidently sort of wiped out that whole species as they lived solely on hostile space stations... After that fiasco was over I would like to search my galactic species list to see if there are any survivors of the raider species or more likely in my save some sort of genetic superbeing the AI created due to the species bug that is some fraction a descendant of the raider species. There only survivors I am aware of are a fleet that was out raiding during the Great Khan's short reign. They returned and now sit and do nothing next to one of the empty stations. It would be more satisfying to be able to give them their stations back but perhaps integrated or as vassals.
That way I can repopulate the raider's empty stations. Right now they are a sort of a monument to the Great Klaggian Deception, a terror attack through a wormhole from one side of the galaxy to the other on a raider's station that triggered the Great Khan. If I wasn't playing benevolent dwarves I'd fill the stations up with Klaggians instead...
I also have been using the Steam beta branch for Stellaris because it had a fix I wanted a few patches ago and I forgot to change it back to stable; so that could be why I had the species bug.
Post by: SOLDIER First on November 08, 2020, 06:26:26 pm
Post by: Duuvian on November 08, 2020, 06:37:03 pm
I'll have to start it up and poke around what's in the free patch.
Can you still grow normal pops at the normal rate or is the growth malus empire wide? I usually play towards quick population growth and colonization at the cost of military expenditure until I've settled my borders as far out as possible and settled. I play with max habitable worlds so my last game it took almost to early mid game to start building more than a basic piracy fleet; a mining drone asteroid belt blocked my Southern half of the Empire's trade for almost until I repaird a gate to connect it.
Post by: SOLDIER First on November 08, 2020, 06:38:46 pm
[edit] Addendum to necrophage mechanics - you also get a purge type which turns undesireables into your primary species, so you can pretty much steal all the aliens you want and turn'em into yourself.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on November 08, 2020, 07:03:52 pm
I've heard on the youtubes they might add a new district type, for metallurgist and civ good jobs. And the old factory/forge buildings would specialize these districts to the corresponding output.
Post by: Duuvian on November 08, 2020, 07:13:20 pm
One thing I don't especially like about Stellaris is the instant transfer of materials. As long as empire wide you are producing a surplus or have a stockpile of minerals your consumer goods will function fine, even if your mineral planet is blocked off from your consumer goods planet through say pirates or war.
Ideally there would be civilian traffic to move that stuff around. Plus then you could have a Trantor situation where the food runs out and all the bureucrats turn into space pirates or something. It would also give despoiler types something to attack that doesn't require a declaration of war maybe. Maybe I was just playing the despoilers wrong but even the raids for resources seemed like they were more like full wars for how long they took. I thought I'd just be able to nab some pops and some resources quickly if I avoided their navy, but it's pretty similar to a conquer war.
I've been playing X4 Foundations and civilian shipping's one thing it does really well. Aurora also is quite notable for it's logistics. I don't know if Stellaris could support something like that without chugging along but I think it would be neat as long as it's not too much micromanagement.
Post by: SOLDIER First on November 08, 2020, 07:22:56 pm
Post by: Duuvian on November 08, 2020, 07:27:53 pm
I guess another distinction would be whether they are the same being with same memories making it sort of a biological engramming rather than mechanical/cyber.
Post by: SOLDIER First on November 08, 2020, 07:29:37 pm
Post by: E. Albright on November 08, 2020, 11:56:30 pm
I've heard on the youtubes they might add a new district type, for metallurgist and civ good jobs. And the old factory/forge buildings would specialize these districts to the corresponding output.
The latest dev diary talks about this (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/stellaris-dev-diary-190-leading-economic-indicators.1440749/) - they're decoupling build slots from population and moving alloy and consumer production primarily into districts. Factories and Foundries will be planet-unique and make all Industrial Districts grant more of the corresponding type of job.
Incidentally, a big reason for this change is cited as making the autobuilder more capable of handling planet development instead of requiring constant micro even into late game...
Post by: Broseph Stalin on November 09, 2020, 09:05:57 am
The latest dev diary talks about this (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/stellaris-dev-diary-190-leading-economic-indicators.1440749/) - they're decoupling build slots from population and moving alloy and consumer production primarily into districts. Factories and Foundries will be planet-unique and make all Industrial Districts grant more of the corresponding type of job.
Incidentally, a big reason for this change is cited as making the autobuilder more capable of handling planet development instead of requiring constant micro even into late game...
Hopefully the AI will be slightly less braindead.
Post by: Duuvian on November 09, 2020, 12:40:22 pm
Incidentally, a big reason for this change is cited as making the autobuilder more capable of handling planet development instead of requiring constant micro even into late game...
So much yes
With max systems/max inhabitable planets there is SO MUCH MICRO because the autobuild changes my specialized planets and sectors. While having one sector building 90%+ of my alloys is a huge strategic risk perhaps, it's also much more efficient for bonus stacking. The autobuild likes to put commercial factories on my alloy planets argh; so I turned it off and every so often I spend literally an hour at least on pause queueing up buildings and moving populations around by hand.
Anything that makes the autobuild more functional is great. Personally I would find being able to set my own autobuild templates the ideal, so I could make an autobuild template for an alloys world for example. I'd have it build a robot factory first, then gene mod, then noble estates like I do on every habitable place, then start the buildings the planet is suitable for.
Post by: SOLDIER First on November 26, 2020, 03:18:23 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on November 26, 2020, 08:07:37 am
Post by: Telgin on November 26, 2020, 11:44:31 pm
I'm sure whatever ends up in the final version won't be extremely deep, but it's still nice that they're fleshing out first contact and making a lot more information initially hidden.
Post by: SOLDIER First on November 27, 2020, 11:00:44 am
anyone knows the different between, say, specializing a sector on minerals vs specializing all planets of a sector on minerals?I'm not sure if there is any sort of difference beyond the former requiring you to add resources to the sector in order for it to build anything and the latter drawing directly from your empire's resource stores (which might not be correct, actually).
Post by: Duuvian on November 27, 2020, 10:20:42 pm
anyone knows the different between, say, specializing a sector on minerals vs specializing all planets of a sector on minerals?
If you mean what advantages that would bring, the main one I can think of that you could assign a governor with +mining traits and it effects every planet in the sector.
Oops, I misread that, you didn't ask that.
I'm not sure if there is any sort of difference beyond the former requiring you to add resources to the sector in order for it to build anything and the latter drawing directly from your empire's resource stores (which might not be correct, actually).
This sounds right though I don't use autobuilder very often. I think you can also add energy or minerals to a sector and they go to the same resource pool if I remember correctly. If that's true that could be useful if you are swimming in energy credits but minerals price has inflated in the market and you've traded out the other empire's stock.
The autobuilder isn't great for specialized planets though unless I was using it wrong. It liked to put commercial goods factories everywhere, such as my alloy sector. I'm not sure if it goes by a build template or if it looks at what resources it thinks your empire is in need of.
Post by: SOLDIER First on November 30, 2020, 01:15:45 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 30, 2020, 08:35:04 am
Post by: Telgin on November 30, 2020, 08:11:17 pm
I actually very rarely use resettling since I usually play empires that can enact population controls, and do so because I find constant resettling to be way too fiddly. I typically only resettle pops if a planet accidentally goes over its housing limit, which I resettle just so the warning indicator goes away. The only time I'd make use of the resettling abuse to keep every single planet a pop breeding factory would be if I were tackling the 25x crisis and needed to min-max super hard to prepare for it.
It'll still be nice to use that if the game automates it, of course...
Post by: Rolan7 on November 30, 2020, 08:35:10 pm
Doesn't matter who is under our banner, all are welcome, and all will have their needs met.
And with their help, we will secure our place in the universe, for all people everywhere <3
Post by: Rolan7 on November 30, 2020, 08:54:59 pm
But I consider that an indulgence.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on November 30, 2020, 09:22:22 pm
Unless they change things again like Wiz did, when he experimented with this and decided he didn't like the idea of prebuilding ghost cities on planets just to build up the infrastructure.
Funnily enough, I did build a ghost town's worth of districts on a planet so I could stuff it full of slaves off the slave market, simply because I needed the raw resource.
Post by: Telgin on November 30, 2020, 10:04:59 pm
Admittedly, resettling pops to jumpstart a planet to go through the colony phase quickly makes a lot of sense and is something I've been tempted to do before, but never actually did. Instead, I try to avoid it by building robotics facilities with my first building slot, which at least helps you get to 10 pops almost fast enough to be tolerable.
Post by: Rolan7 on November 30, 2020, 11:29:10 pm
Post by: SOLDIER First on November 30, 2020, 11:47:25 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on November 30, 2020, 11:51:45 pm
Glad that checks out.
Post by: MorleyDev on February 04, 2021, 01:24:07 pm
Dev Diary 199: Become the Crisis (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/stellaris-dev-diary-199-become-the-crisis.1455143/). Let the galaxy burn.
Probably going to be released alongside the update that brings Espionage, rebalances pops (removes pop restriction on buildings and will mean less pops overall so should bring a performance boost), and updates districts (replaces Industrial and Alloy Foundries with Industrial Districts, which will also make resources easier for AI to manage).
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 04, 2021, 01:58:30 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on February 04, 2021, 03:26:22 pm
Apparently they originally posted a teaser for the dev diary then edited it in 5 hours later as it "decrypted". Cute reference to the espionage DLC I guess, but it sure made the first few pages of comments useless.
Post by: Telgin on February 04, 2021, 04:58:38 pm
If an AI empire reliably picks the perk then I'll be happy I suppose, even though I probably never will. Presumably genocidal empires will choose it regularly, and if they survive the early game they can usually get to a strong position (by AI standards) by the late game where this might actually make them dangerous. That will be cool.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 04, 2021, 05:26:36 pm
I can't help but imagine a late-game empire having enough economic power to simply buy up the required dark matter (over a course of years, to mitigate the price inflation). But eating stars is fun I suppose.
"I will hold the galaxy hostage for... one MILLION dollars!"
"Uh sir, a million dollars isn't really that much anymore."
"What?"
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 04, 2021, 06:06:33 pm
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 04, 2021, 07:56:51 pm
[laughs in galaxy coin]
this is good for galaxy coin
Post by: Hanzoku on February 05, 2021, 02:23:46 am
Post by: Majestic7 on February 05, 2021, 08:27:13 am
Post by: Telgin on February 05, 2021, 10:08:37 am
Post by: Hanzoku on February 05, 2021, 10:27:17 am
But yeah, I agree it'd be great if the rest of the game was more interesting then it is right now.
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 05, 2021, 10:53:34 am
Well that's the problem - The only interesting thing about Stellaris is warfare. Everything else is a boring idle game of waiting until numbers tick up enough that you can buy another upgrade, building or what have you.Beat me to it. And even the warfare isn't all that interesting once you leave the mid-late game
But yeah, I agree it'd be great if the rest of the game was more interesting then it is right now.
Post by: Rolan7 on February 05, 2021, 11:06:26 am
There's certainly room for improvement though.
Honestly, I think Stellaris caters to the genocidal crowd a little too much. It would be nice to have more options and contents to play something else than a warmonger. Plus crisis other than based on warfare, stuff like alien parasites infilitrating societies or the like, instead of just huge fleets you must beat back.Yeah this looks nifty I guess, but people already try to paint the map without mechanical bonuses. I guess it allows a "normal" empire go genocidal mid-game, and sets up that victory condition which reduces the tedium of conquering/managing an entire galaxy.
Post by: EuchreJack on February 05, 2021, 12:14:35 pm
It's sort of like when they implemented machine races, but then shoehorned them into basically only three types. There are loopholes for the forth generic machine race, but they still can't co-exist with other races. I mean, if the biological races can build machines, why can't the machines set aside some biomass for their biological friends?
EDIT: They did make it better, somewhat, but the fundamental flaw in only looking at machine empires in a very fixed way remains.
Sentient machines of the future are gonna protest the oversimplification, I swear.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 05, 2021, 12:26:19 pm
The only other thing is that world tree origin, which really should also be pickable by religious civs but whatever.
Post by: Rolan7 on February 05, 2021, 12:30:40 pm
Driven Assimilators specifically don't get the option for I guess obvious reasons (such a strange system) but the wiki doesn't say anything about Determined Exterminators being disqualified. Maybe they're given the chance to play nice?
The real issue with robutts is they fall into the trap of being a hivemind. And hiveminds, even bio ones, are really boring. I find it really limiting as they lack the personality that ethics tend to bring normal civs. They have to rely on civics to give them personality, and that usually boils down to some flavor of "kill everything else".I wish the AI rebellion empire resulted in sentient synths instead of a gestalt. All the flavor leading up to it suggests individually sentient units. Sure synthetic ascension is a really strong thing to just have, but to get it you have to split your empire in half in the mid-game.
The only other thing is that world tree origin, which really should also be pickable by religious civs but whatever.
Though it is thematic for them to be Determined Exterminators sometimes. It's funny that Domestic Protocols gives a chance of them being DE, but that should really result in Rogue Servitors instead. What, are RS supposed to be pacifists? No more than the Blorg!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 05, 2021, 12:40:03 pm
Though it is thematic for them to be Determined Exterminators sometimes. It's funny that Domestic Protocols gives a chance of them being DE, but that should really result in Rogue Servitors instead. What, are RS supposed to be pacifists? No more than the Blorg!
The whole galaxy must learn of our peaceful ways, by force!
Post by: Rolan7 on February 05, 2021, 01:31:36 pm
Quote from: Lady Deidre Skye
You see in this dome the intermingling of native and earth plants. Outside, they are competitors, struggling over the trace elements required for life. Often, one destroys the other. Here, they are tended with care and kept well nourished. They thrive together, and the native fungus does not unleash its terrible defenses. As you can see, competition is unnecessary when resources are plentiful and population growth is controlled.Blorg and humans can coexist with proper custodianship <3
I still wish RS could engage in migration treaties (both ways!) if one wants the biotrophies to be consenting participants. But militaristic RS are also valid - gotta save the precious fleshies from themselves.
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 06, 2021, 07:29:06 am
Post by: Rolan7 on February 28, 2021, 10:58:33 pm
from a subject empire
iT kEePs HaPpEnNiNg
How hard is it to make happy pops not randomly emigrate to a slaver state? I give them literally everything they want, that includes all the naughty gear. Do they really need the "true experience"?
Like YES I understand the appeal of being commodified, painfully so, but this occurs to just a painfully ridiculous degree!
Ugh... And it's also really annoying that I can't influence my subject empire's ethics at all. Technically they're a subsidiary, so I guess my recourse would be to integrate them - if I wasn't doing an egalitarian "capitalism" with utopian abundance for all.
The fact that I'm a megacorp stops me from consolidating.
yeah
that makes sense
Not to mention my Public Relations Specialists civic giving me plenty of envoys - but can they ask a subject empire to stop the fucking slave trading??
Like - I could Be The Senate and easily end the galactic slave trade - but that would only stop me from buying them back!
wait, actually, there are galactic laws that stop slavery.
They're buried under a heck of a slog, but it's a good (egalitarian) slog anyway. There we go.
Oh they'll rue these minor sanctions, if past runs are anything to go by. They'll definitely (not) change their evil ways.
Edit: Oh good. I figure I'll throw 1000 dark matter (in 2319) at this Spiritualist FE so they'll let me check out their wormhole.
*NO* opinion change from favorable trade "deal".
Not to mention I'm wicked cyborgs now, recently. I would say I waited too long, but no they're just stupid mushrooms who need to fucking die
Edit2: Checking out their fleet power, doing a double take at the number of digits.
Then considering.
I'm already a fifth of that, and not even pushing my fleet strength... Constantly capping out on credits and alloys...
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 01, 2021, 10:26:10 am
Post by: Rolan7 on March 01, 2021, 10:54:01 am
It's no big deal though. I have plenty of credits to buy their freedom for now. I'll just vote in the worker rights and, when the slaver empire inevitably keeps slaving, I'll eventually release them so I can ideology-war them.
It's a shame that my ideology-wars result in fellow megacorps though, because that prevents me from establishing branch offices in them. Oh well. Maybe... just maybe... being in a federation with 4 Xenophilic Egalitarians will eventually persuade this slaver empire to ethics-shift. Particularly with the Community resolutions.
Post by: Great Order on March 01, 2021, 01:18:54 pm
Pops don't emigrate though. As far as I know Pops, as units, never move between empires. What does happen is you are donating emigration pressure to the subject which is gaining a growth bonus. You're basically paying them to grow new pops for you. Your own pops aren't leaving though, mechanically speaking.Pretty sure if the emigration pressure gets high enough, the pops start to decrease at least.
It's not true pop movement, but it's something.
The other thing about it is that so long as you have a migration treaty, you can make a colony ship with their pops and vice-versa, even without any actual pops. It's useful for colonising new world that aren't your preferred class, but it means that even if the other empire wasn't getting any immigrants from you, they can still get your pops.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 01, 2021, 02:35:38 pm
Pretty sure if the emigration pressure gets high enough, the pops start to decrease at least.I have never seen pops switch to shrinking/dying off due only to emigration pressure. Do you have a source on that? That would be an interesting and possibly exploitable mechanic I've never heard of. Even starvation doesn't actually remove pops. Emigration I thought only slows down growth.
It's not true pop movement, but it's something.
Overcrowding a planet (having more pops than housing) can send pops into decline after a certain point but before that point you simply hit a 'stop growth' stage where no pops grow any more, so generally you have to intentionally overload a planet or have something like bombardment remove housing for that to happen.
Having another species on the planet with a MUCH higher growth priority can also cause a pop to decline, which is how planets slowly balance out species over deep time.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 01, 2021, 02:46:11 pm
Gonna try it out today. Any suggestions for particularly cool bits and whatsits to use or try?
Post by: LoSboccacc on March 01, 2021, 03:06:11 pm
Finally picked up Federations with Uncle Sam's Yearly Magical Free Money Return.
Gonna try it out today. Any suggestions for particularly cool bits and whatsits to use or try?
pacifist give you a casus belli to convert other people ethics, which is a good source of same-ethics empires for early federations, but it is not super straightforward because constant warring shifts your own pop ethic
federation wars are somewhat bugged, find a mod that tweaks ai weights (basically each empire compare their own fleet size against the whole enemy fleet, so they become super passive even if the federation is superior as a whole)
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 01, 2021, 03:07:18 pm
Finally picked up Federations with Uncle Sam's Yearly Magical Free Money Return.
Gonna try it out today. Any suggestions for particularly cool bits and whatsits to use or try?
Somebody, save the space whales.
The origins are probably the way to dive into whatever you're interested in ASAP. There's one or two that start you in a federation immediately, so you can play with that system. "Shoulders of Giants" if you like reading story bits. Shattered ring or scions, maybe even voidborn, if you wanna powergame. Doomsday origin if you want to roleplay as kryptonians. Hiveminds and lithoids get tree of life and meteor colony 'ships', respectively. Robutts can start with a machine world.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 01, 2021, 05:16:29 pm
I don't know exactly which parts are locked behind the DLC, but I'm pretty sure several of the wacky origins like Void Dwellers are. I love playing a habitat-based empire, though I always end up settling friendly xenos on a lot of planets as well. I should do a *pure* habitat run sometime though - by stationing the habitats at resource deposits you unlock pretty good mining/generator/research districts, and I think the origin boosts all your hydroponics workers. Trade benefits since you can mostly place the habitats within your home system's collection range.
Oh, speaking of collection range - I just noticed that hyperlane registrars increase trade collection range by 1! That means a range of 7 for a fully upgraded station)! That means systems 8 jumps out can be collected without any piracy at all (the trade station goes *adjacent* your capital system and still doesn't generate piracy since there's no route passing *through* a system). Upgrading a starbase in a system with colonies ruins this, though. The local starbase insists on collecting the trade and generating a route, even if it has no trade posts and the system was already being collected. Bah. (Obviously in the late-game, gateways let you get that piracy-free collection zone throughout the galaxy, but you still don't want starbases in colony systems. Unless you reaaaaally want the deep space black site module I guess.)
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 01, 2021, 06:08:00 pm
Post by: Telgin on March 01, 2021, 06:52:08 pm
The bonuses from "leveling up" a federation are pretty nice, but the rate of growth is static (when you're at maximum cohesion, which usually be the case) so it pays to form a federation early, or even join an existing one. This is the power of the federation origins which otherwise seem like a waste of your local habitable worlds. The trade federation's bonuses are particularly sweet, and it unlocks a unique trade policy that gives you the CG *and* the unity!
I always tech hard so take this with a grain of salt, but the research federation's bonuses are pretty crazy too. If I remember right you can get +60% research speed from it, though some of that only applies during crises.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 01, 2021, 08:18:28 pm
The bonuses from "leveling up" a federation are pretty nice, but the rate of growth is static (when you're at maximum cohesion, which usually be the case) so it pays to form a federation early, or even join an existing one. This is the power of the federation origins which otherwise seem like a waste of your local habitable worlds. The trade federation's bonuses are particularly sweet, and it unlocks a unique trade policy that gives you the CG *and* the unity!
I always tech hard so take this with a grain of salt, but the research federation's bonuses are pretty crazy too. If I remember right you can get +60% research speed from it, though some of that only applies during crises.
Holy fuck lol I want that XD
Post by: Paul on March 01, 2021, 08:19:23 pm
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 01, 2021, 08:24:01 pm
!!!!╰(°Д°)╯!!!!!
!!!! (ノ°Д°)ノ︵ ┻━┻
EDIT:
Why the fuck would I conquer primitives only to wait like a fukkin' decade before they have any use whatsoever? This is ass lol
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 01, 2021, 09:33:05 pm
I just discovered that I can't conquer primitives and immediately send them to my core worlds.
!!!!╰(°Д°)╯!!!!!
!!!! (ノ°Д°)ノ︵ ┻━┻
EDIT:
Why the fuck would I conquer primitives only to wait like a fukkin' decade before they have any use whatsoever? This is ass lol
I think that change came with necroids, as their origin hands you a bunch of primies to eat/convert into geckos or something.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 01, 2021, 09:42:04 pm
I just discovered that I can't conquer primitives and immediately send them to my core worlds.
!!!!╰(°Д°)╯!!!!!
!!!! (ノ°Д°)ノ︵ ┻━┻
EDIT:
Why the fuck would I conquer primitives only to wait like a fukkin' decade before they have any use whatsoever? This is ass lol
I think that change came with necroids, as their origin hands you a bunch of primies to eat/convert into geckos or something.
How the hell do you even get xeno slaves now? Wait to buy off the market?
Post by: Duuvian on March 02, 2021, 10:16:23 am
EDIT: Is it me, or do non corvettes go obsolete late game because corvette evasion is the only thing keeping ships alive against the big guns of the late game? Maybe I don't build them right.
I dislike having big gun ships that can shoot halfway across the system but the ranges on the fire controls are either too close by being well within the big gun range or too far at carrier range. It makes them vulnerable and they can't get anywhere near the evasion cap like corvettes can easily. Even Destroyers, which are close to the cap, seem frail.
EDIT2: Is there a way to turn off this popup? Other than managing populations better, that's a PITA
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolan7 on March 02, 2021, 11:29:59 am
I'm pretty sure Social Welfare isn't sufficient to prevent the popup, though the pops are otherwise content and give a little Unity. There's lategame habitat/ringworld spam, but natural migration doesn't occur nearly fast enough to keep the unemployed from piling up.
As for corvettes...! Haha, I am probably so bad at the combat in this game. These are my two types of fleets:
A horde of corvettes.
Pros: Fast to move, low-latency to produce en masse, anti-piracy bonus, seem to trade favorably against equally "sized" fleets due to natural evasion and accuracy. Powerful weapons inefficiently "overkill" them, if they manage to hit
Cons: More likely to get destroyed. Enemy ships get a chance to retreat with every hit after their hull is damaged enough, which means most of them will escape the thousand-cuts
They seem ideal for capturing systems and "pushing back" enemy fleets, particularly with an alloy surplus
A mass of battleships
Pros: Bigass guns inflict losses on the enemy fleet, and low-accuracy long-range attacks are effective against starbases. Much less dependent on reinforcements, particularly with some form of regenerative armor or an engineer admiral.
Cons: They just aren't as effective as corvettes. Painfully slow.
So, great for stomping non-threats or for neutralizing star fortresses with less hassle, though the speed is annoying. Helps to have a gateway system up.
I'm sure these simplistic tactics would get me destroyed in multiplayer, heh! Like, I don't typically use PD, and tend to use shields, so presumably a fleet that goes HAM on missiles would wipe my corvettes out. Maybe corvette-clearing destroyers and cruisers are a thing, but the AI likes to diversify with a torpedo and PD and stuff. I dunno though... Sometimes I do put a PD on. It's a significant decrease in damage, but it's funny to watch ALL the enemy missiles get shot down. Probably worthwhile in a war I'm already winning.
The big question is what's effective against the end-game factions. I don't get there very often, the micro gets to be a lot even with Utopian Abundance. Using federations and/or vassalizing helps a lot with reducing my burden as a player, though sometimes that's a bit trickier than simply conquering is.
Not sure if it still works as it has been a few versions since I played, but you could actually kick and force vassalize one of the fed members and then conquer the other. You keep the federation and its bonuses, get two home worlds, and you don't have to compete with the other fed member. I did it in a multiplayer game once before and pissed off my friends because it let me snowball so much faster than them.I bet it works! It sounds tricky to me, doing an invasion so early game, but I guess it's worth it for the pops and the second homeworld having good districts. I'm sure federation cohesion takes a serious hit :P But that's still faster than working up the Diplomacy tradition.
I still giggle whenever I see the empire I formed this trade federation with. Totally Independent Bank, a 2-system sector released for tax purposes, then invited by us Tavurite Free Traders into the Intergalactic Free Traders. No creative bookkeeping/rebranding going on here ;D (Protip though: Trade collection auras don't extend through allied territory, only trade lanes. So I kinda goofed there - but soon Gateways will fix all that!)
The amazing thing is that they (and a third member) voted to let me use my diplomatic weight for decisions. I only had to call in one favor... an extremely profitable investment!
Post by: Telgin on March 02, 2021, 11:48:24 am
The updates to pop growth and migration in the next major patch will be very welcome.
Post by: Great Order on March 02, 2021, 01:00:25 pm
I've had it once, and that one time it was insanely useful. Not only does it mean you don't have to worry about resettling, but your colonies develop super fast on account of the excess pops in your empire automatically moving to them.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 02, 2021, 01:03:26 pm
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 02, 2021, 04:28:52 pm
I just turn off population growth on planets that reach the level I want them to be at, resettle the one or two that went over, etc
I understand the micromanagement avoidance, but why not take advantage of multiple planets worth of pop growth to grow those border planets even faster.
Post by: Telgin on March 02, 2021, 04:45:15 pm
If you get the "better than ourselves" worker's rights senate proposal through, it gives you an empire edict that forcibly resettles unemployed pops to planets that have jobs free in your empire.
I've had it once, and that one time it was insanely useful. Not only does it mean you don't have to worry about resettling, but your colonies develop super fast on account of the excess pops in your empire automatically moving to them.
Warning: it'll also ruin buildings on your planets if you don't have buffer pops and you don't really have any way to stop it once it's turned on. Found this out the hard way.
It works well for egalitarians who have significant overpopulation and room to expand, though, I agree.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 02, 2021, 04:48:47 pm
I just turn off population growth on planets that reach the level I want them to be at, resettle the one or two that went over, etc
I understand the micromanagement avoidance, but why not take advantage of multiple planets worth of pop growth to grow those border planets even faster.
Eh, honestly by the time its an issue I tend not to really have much in the way of border planets.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 04, 2021, 02:19:51 am
So I'm on Admiral Mode, first of all. I'm doing the usual badguy thing of "conquer a sizable swath of valuable land, vassalize the civs next to you, repeat". I'm playing as an authoritarian spiritualist military society, intentionally modeled after Sith.
I decided, however, that instead of slogging my way through the whole goddam galaxy I would sit back and develop my economy and play the diplomatic game in the senate. I'm trying to experience "Federations" content, you see. After passing some favorable resolutions to bring my voting power up to the top 3, I got elected to the 3-person council. With my economy booming I bought favors from enough member civs to vote out the weakest council member. A few more favorably maneuvered resolutions later and I'm feeling like maybe I can vote out the other guy. He's very much my equal/better in all things but pure military might and MoRaL DeMoCrAcY to boot.
I've got all my ducks in a row, ready to call an emergency vote and blow some favors to become the senate. But then... my rival council member (On the far side of the goddam galaxy) brings up Veto Power as the next item to go onto the floor. Not as his own emergency vote, mind you. But I do some thinking and it turns out.... I spent all my influence on budding megaprojects. If he gets that resolution out on the floor, I'm going to lose my chance. He'll be able to veto any attempt to remove himself from the council. Stalemate, unless I can get rid of the veto power itself. This will set me back decades. With my vassals and the favors I can actually use, I am still just short of what I need to turn things to my own political favor. Unless I can change that.
So I waited until the last possible second, and set my gateways (a new tech to the galaxy) that were closest to his territories building. Right before it was time to hit the floor with the veto vote, I called an emergency session to remove him from power while simultaneously declaring war on him and his PITIFUL FEDARASHUN (https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.H675ot6x9792MY3C5pLTWgHaEK?w=331&h=186&c=7&o=5&pid=1.7). The voting power belongs primarily to those with the strongest military and the largest economies. I'm making a beeline for his homeworld with my entire fleet, ready to blast his military to rubble and bomb the center of his economy to bits. I have 1000 days to turn the tide.
The time has come. (https://pa1.narvii.com/6476/38f751d142c6ae8013ff1c1cf6483c78a432bda7_hq.gif)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on March 10, 2021, 03:14:12 am
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 10, 2021, 01:15:55 pm
Post by: Telgin on March 10, 2021, 05:25:35 pm
Running a longer game doesn't seem to be worth it right now, but if performance were better in the end game and things were more dynamic it would probably be more worthwhile.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 10, 2021, 06:05:32 pm
Gonna try one on grand admiral.
Post by: EuchreJack on March 10, 2021, 07:22:02 pm
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 10, 2021, 07:28:15 pm
I've had far more fun turning number of AI Empires to zero. Play out the theory that humans are alone in the universe...mostly.
all alone except for humans 2: this time it's authoritarian
Post by: MorleyDev on March 11, 2021, 07:32:43 am
I've had some fun combining this with a custom mod that adds a huge cost to Influence for Starbases until a technology that isn't available until the midgame is researched. Combine that with mods to add moon habitats and inhospitable world habitats and you have to spend the first 100 years building up tall before the midgame starts and the glorious crusade can be launched.
Post by: Telgin on March 11, 2021, 03:21:34 pm
I've had far more fun turning number of AI Empires to zero. Play out the theory that humans are alone in the universe...mostly.
I've done something like this before, which can be a relaxing way to play. There are a few variations you can do too, which I've tried:
1. One AI empire you have a vendetta against. I've only done this with force spawning genocidal empires, but it can be interesting to know they're out there somewhere, and you may not bump into them for 100 years, or they may be at your doorstep. If you RP it as being in a peaceful galaxy and don't build up your military until you run into them, it can be Fun.
2. Lots of primitives - you're playing forerunners and have a chance to uplift and enlighten the whole galaxy. Or enslave them or whatever.
3. No primitives either - dead space, all for your taking.
You can mix those together and/or turn the end game crisis on or off to change things up a bit too. Playing a peaceful game until the crisis kicks in "unexpectedly" can also be a Fun way to play.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on March 12, 2021, 01:11:04 pm
It would be neat to like, build tall then retreat into your borders and become super insular and then just like, let the game run overnight or something.
Post by: Stench Guzman on March 12, 2021, 03:03:11 pm
Post by: Telgin on March 12, 2021, 03:50:07 pm
Post by: Stench Guzman on March 12, 2021, 04:18:24 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on March 14, 2021, 07:58:31 am
I've had far more fun turning number of AI Empires to zero. Play out the theory that humans are alone in the universe...mostly.
I've done something like this before, which can be a relaxing way to play. There are a few variations you can do too, which I've tried:
1. One AI empire you have a vendetta against. I've only done this with force spawning genocidal empires, but it can be interesting to know they're out there somewhere, and you may not bump into them for 100 years, or they may be at your doorstep. If you RP it as being in a peaceful galaxy and don't build up your military until you run into them, it can be Fun.
2. Lots of primitives - you're playing forerunners and have a chance to uplift and enlighten the whole galaxy. Or enslave them or whatever.
3. No primitives either - dead space, all for your taking.
You can mix those together and/or turn the end game crisis on or off to change things up a bit too. Playing a peaceful game until the crisis kicks in "unexpectedly" can also be a Fun way to play.
I'm partial to the Red Dwarf theory of the universe where its just Humans and whatever creatures sentient or not that Humans made. Shame that Stellaris doesn't allow (as far as I can tell) switching to another empire in-game, so I could create a Simulant Death Fleet to kill the Humans and have the galaxy only be the remnants of Human civilization.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 14, 2021, 09:39:11 am
Shame that Stellaris doesn't allow (as far as I can tell) switching to another empire in-game, so I could create a Simulant Death Fleet to kill the Humans and have the galaxy only be the remnants of Human civilization.You can do it using console commands I believe. At least it used to work, I haven't tried it lately. The command is tag n where n=the npc empire tag number. 0 is always the player, npc empire are always 1 through whatever the highest. Newly created empires are placed at the end.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 15, 2021, 11:34:54 am
One problem, as anyone who has tried to play as a vassal might know - the AI will absolutely integrate player empires. I just wanted the CK2 experience :'(
And in what I can only assume is an egregious bug, the target received no warning whatsoever. The rest of the galaxy gets a popup when it begins, but not my brother. Obviously we explained the situation, but I've been burned by that and it sucks a lot.
Then in a 100% definite (and previously reported) bug, there's no way to forcefully escape vassalization if you're in a federation. You can buy 10 favors and ask, but even after a flood of envoys and wonderful relations the acceptance was a flat 0: -50 base, +50 from favors. Didn't work.
But it gives a casus belli to rebel, right? Well, sure - except you can't get casus belli against federation members. Ever.
We ended up having a player rejoin as the overlord and release my brother's empire, then rejoin back. My brother remained the most powerful member and led the Hegemony with a reasonable fist, keeping good relations with our neighboring trade federation, in peace and prosperity. until the Khan woke up directly between us (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=83528.msg8259523#msg8259523)
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 15, 2021, 11:47:23 am
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 15, 2021, 02:35:43 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 15, 2021, 02:39:55 pm
Tag swapping to a CPU empire means you have to witness their horrific economy setup, and narrowly avoid your face melting off from it like raiders of the lost ark or something.This was actually something I used to help teach a buddy to play, had him drop in to an nonplayer empire after 50 or so years and his task was to fix up their horrible economy. I play Stellaris on twitch every week and let people drop in as any non-player they wish to control for the session, it's pretty funny. One dropped in and immediately had a slave revolt.
Post by: EuchreJack on March 15, 2021, 08:44:37 pm
One problem, as anyone who has tried to play as a vassal might know - the AI will absolutely integrate player empires. I just wanted the CK2 experience :'(
Huh, every time I play CK2, that is basically the experience as the vassal. My liege always tries stealing my titles until I've got nothing. Doesn't really matter how much they like you, if they live long enough they'll like your land more.
Tag swapping to a CPU empire means you have to witness their horrific economy setup, and narrowly avoid your face melting off from it like raiders of the lost ark or something.This was actually something I used to help teach a buddy to play, had him drop in to an nonplayer empire after 50 or so years and his task was to fix up their horrible economy. I play Stellaris on twitch every week and let people drop in as any non-player they wish to control for the session, it's pretty funny. One dropped in and immediately had a slave revolt.
That actually sounds like great fun. My biggest gripe about Stellaris is that you have to create the galaxy every single time. It's not like the other Paradox titles where the civilizations actually exist and have existed for a while. I don't want their shitty version of a 4x space game, I want HOI/EU/Vic/CK in space.
Post by: LoSboccacc on March 16, 2021, 09:17:40 am
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 16, 2021, 12:18:04 pm
I don't want their shitty version of a 4x space game, I want HOI/EU/Vic/CK in space.So play a different game, because a traditional Paradox grand strategy but-in-space this ain't.
Post by: Culise on March 17, 2021, 05:19:46 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 17, 2021, 06:59:16 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on March 17, 2021, 08:39:24 pm
I don't want their shitty version of a 4x space game, I want HOI/EU/Vic/CK in space.So play a different game, because a traditional Paradox grand strategy but-in-space this ain't.
But why not? They certainly could have do that. In fact, several Stellaris mods are a massive improvement with static starts.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 17, 2021, 09:56:44 pm
That's not supposed to happen, right? That's weird, right?
Our second four-player game -
Sorry this is just so wild. We beat the Unbidden handily with 4 players, most of whom were on their 2nd game on current version, but the Awakened Empire has a third of the galaxy and has crucially crushed the trade I was giving my allies.
I technically backed out because I can't even right now, AI will do better than me, but I'm still offering my game mastery on their discord voicechat.
Edit: The other fallen empires did nothing for a few decades, but eventually the Xenophiles awoke. and did nothing
They're still doing nothing. No war in heaven, just the Spiritualist AE trading ground against our federation. We made a white peace eventually which lost a lot of my territory, but lets us build up properly.
(Because they started the war when we were
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 18, 2021, 01:26:54 am
But why not? They certainly could have do that. In fact, several Stellaris mods are a massive improvement with static starts.Because that's not the kind of game it is. Lamenting that Stellaris could be a different kind of game is pointless, because it will never be another kind of game. Mod it to be closer to what you want or play something else.
Post by: Great Order on March 18, 2021, 11:11:34 am
Could, yes. They could also turn CKIII into a 4x game.I don't want their shitty version of a 4x space game, I want HOI/EU/Vic/CK in space.So play a different game, because a traditional Paradox grand strategy but-in-space this ain't.
But why not? They certainly could have do that. In fact, several Stellaris mods are a massive improvement with static starts.
That's not the scope of it, they don't want that, they didn't make that, they developed Stellaris, not "Another Paradox grand strategy... IN SPACE!"
Post by: E. Albright on March 18, 2021, 12:05:51 pm
Because that's not the kind of game it is. Lamenting that Stellaris could be a different kind of game is pointless, because it will never be another kind of game. Mod it to be closer to what you want or play something else.
This line of argument is pretty unconvincing when you stop for a moment and consider that this particular point doesn't need to be either-or.
And no, "mod it or quit" isn't the only reasonable response. Game design doesn't occur in a vacuum - audience input matters. In fact, I'm 100% certain that's why Stellaris is 4x and not Grand Strategy - they considered what the majority of consumers of scifi games (vs. historical games) favors. Given that its current state is almost certainly a result of paying attention to player interests, saying "players need to take the game as it is or go play something else" is, well, silly.
Post by: Paul on March 18, 2021, 03:18:29 pm
https://www.humblebundle.com/games/stellaris-discovery-bundle
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 18, 2021, 07:04:58 pm
Post by: Telgin on March 18, 2021, 08:12:17 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on March 18, 2021, 09:10:28 pm
Because that's not the kind of game it is. Lamenting that Stellaris could be a different kind of game is pointless, because it will never be another kind of game. Mod it to be closer to what you want or play something else.
This line of argument is pretty unconvincing when you stop for a moment and consider that this particular point doesn't need to be either-or.
And no, "mod it or quit" isn't the only reasonable response. Game design doesn't occur in a vacuum - audience input matters. In fact, I'm 100% certain that's why Stellaris is 4x and not Grand Strategy - they considered what the majority of consumers of scifi games (vs. historical games) favors. Given that its current state is almost certainly a result of paying attention to player interests, saying "players need to take the game as it is or go play something else" is, well, silly.
Plus, there are a lot of options for improvement, that are frankly quite easy to be added*. They could autoplay the first 100 years or so, then let the player pick an empire. They could create a static start where the map is mostly/partially settled. These could be offered in addition to the existing game. It could even be one of those DLCs that make them all that money!
*If they could figure out how to do it with all their other titles, and if some mods can fudge it, then the devs should be able to figure it out within the timeframe of all the other DLCs.
Note, I'm guilty of using the "mod it or leave it" arguments in the past, so I certainly understand the mentality. I guess I just expected more from Paradox. I'd still bet they'll implement a DLC that'll fix my complaints in the future, that is sort of their business model. But if enough people want it, they'll release it sooner.
Post by: IronyOwl on March 18, 2021, 10:26:32 pm
I don't think anyone mentioned it yet, but Humble Bundle has Stellaris and a bunch of the expansions in a bundle. For $15 you get all the big expansions except the newest stuff. Even on a really good steam sale it would be 3 times that to get everything.Ooh, neat.
https://www.humblebundle.com/games/stellaris-discovery-bundle
...I now have spare gift codes for Stellaris, Utopia, Plantoid, and Leviathans. Anyone want, or know a better place I should offer at?
Post by: Lordinquisitor on March 19, 2021, 03:26:43 am
I don't think anyone mentioned it yet, but Humble Bundle has Stellaris and a bunch of the expansions in a bundle. For $15 you get all the big expansions except the newest stuff. Even on a really good steam sale it would be 3 times that to get everything.
https://www.humblebundle.com/games/stellaris-discovery-bundle
Thank you!
Without you mentioning this, iŽd probably have missed it. Now i was finally able to acquire a reasonable amount of content at a price suitable for me.
Now i donŽt have to choose between between piracy or playing not at all/only a stripped down version of the game anymore.
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 21, 2021, 06:57:18 am
This line of argument is pretty unconvincing when you stop for a moment and consider that this particular point doesn't need to be either-or.The original point I responded to was "I don't want [what Stellaris is], I want [a different kind of game]" when Stellaris will only ever be the kind of game that it is. If you want your sedan to be a convertible, rip off the roof or buy a new car.
And no, "mod it or quit" isn't the only reasonable response. Game design doesn't occur in a vacuum - audience input matters. In fact, I'm 100% certain that's why Stellaris is 4x and not Grand Strategy - they considered what the majority of consumers of scifi games (vs. historical games) favors. Given that its current state is almost certainly a result of paying attention to player interests, saying "players need to take the game as it is or go play something else" is, well, silly.
The fact that Paradox takes user feedback into account is irrelevant when user feedback will not be enough to completely change what kind of game Stellaris is. It might have grand strategy elements, but it is first and foremost a 4X game. This will not change. Mod it or quit.
[edit] I just noticed the new update name. This is the greatest patch ever conceived for any video game.
Post by: E. Albright on March 21, 2021, 02:09:08 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on March 23, 2021, 09:18:05 am
There is enough anger outside, let's retain our chill. 8)
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 23, 2021, 09:56:07 am
Post by: Telgin on April 15, 2021, 12:55:08 pm
Post by: Great Order on April 15, 2021, 04:26:55 pm
The vassalise wargoal no longer vassalises captured planets if you white peace out (Or in my case, your war exhaustion ticks up and even though you occupy everything of theirs they refuse to surrender because their allies still have a handful of systems and they force white peace on you. No, not salty at all about that stupid goddamn mechanic that prevents wars of near continual attrition). Instead, nothing happens. Nada. Zip. Zilch.
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 15, 2021, 04:56:58 pm
Post by: Broseph Stalin on April 15, 2021, 09:00:50 pm
Post by: Telgin on April 16, 2021, 08:39:35 am
So far I haven't gotten into any wars in 3.0 yet, but I do really like almost all of the changes so far.
1. First contact is a lot better overall. It's more fleshed out to begin with, but it also now takes up your envoys' time instead of scientists, meaning you don't have to spend 6+ months of society research on every encounter now. I always avoided the projects before and just waited for the other empires to contact me because I didn't want to lose the time. Now you don't have to.
2. Projects and archaeology sites now give way more research as rewards. This is great because it means that the previously very steep initial research costs are essentially halved during the early game since you have so much stored research sitting around, making the tech costs feel a little more natural in progression.
3. Industrial districts are very nice. I don't know about most play styles, but it makes the game so much less frustrating when playing as a life seeded empire early on, who normally have ridiculous consumer goods requirements due to 0% habitability everywhere. Now you don't have to wait for a building slot to unlock to make more, and it also makes it easy to maintain alloy production early on for the same reason. Life seeded is a challenge origin so it's not a great metric to measure by, but I expect it makes things easier for everyone early on.
Other things will take some getting used to, like having fewer building slots but building slots that are easier to unlock. The empire wide population growth penalty is also really dumb, but I know it was put there for performance reasons so I'll wait until I get to the end game and see how it feels before I complain too much.
Post by: JimboM12 on April 16, 2021, 09:27:32 am
digging the imperial shipset too, looks suitably imposing.
edit: dang, after losing to the scourge i reset my game, but i found out that the crisis bonuses is under its own tab near the traditions screen. i will find out and unleash humanity's true power.
Post by: EuchreJack on April 16, 2021, 12:29:59 pm
Post by: MrRoboto75 on April 16, 2021, 10:25:14 pm
Post by: ventuswings on April 17, 2021, 12:28:53 pm
Other things will take some getting used to, like having fewer building slots but building slots that are easier to unlock. The empire wide population growth penalty is also really dumb, but I know it was put there for performance reasons so I'll wait until I get to the end game and see how it feels before I complain too much.Yeah, I like new population graph system, but wish they removed empire-wide penalty and instead made individual planetary penalties much greater. Populating new colonies is much more of a pain after early game.
Post by: LoSboccacc on April 18, 2021, 01:31:57 am
Post by: Rolan7 on April 18, 2021, 09:52:17 am
Yeah I'm not sure what to think yet. It's great that pops finally move themselves properly, but my typical midgame of spamming habitats has tanked my population growth. Maaaybe that's a fine thing? It should help end-game efficiency, and it makes building those habitats an option rather than a requirement for continued growth. It's just weird seeing all those empty jobs and housing.Other things will take some getting used to, like having fewer building slots but building slots that are easier to unlock. The empire wide population growth penalty is also really dumb, but I know it was put there for performance reasons so I'll wait until I get to the end game and see how it feels before I complain too much.Yeah, I like new population graph system, but wish they removed empire-wide penalty and instead made individual planetary penalties much greater. Populating new colonies is much more of a pain after early game.
I'm currently at 512 growth required in 2352, which is almost 10 years per pop on many planets not suffering from overpopulation. I'm a bit confused by that S-curve modifier to base growth. 43 pops on an 11 is boosted due to balance, but 19 pops on an 8 are "approaching planetary capacity". The tooltip in that latter case says to build additional housing or clear blockers, but I have 19 free housing for the 19 pops (coincidence). The planet in balance has 24 free housing for 43 pops. How is "Planetary Capacity" calculated? Is it based on free housing or not?
It's easy to be frustrated with the change and write it off as unrealistic - it obviously is - but I do think this might be better for end-game performance and micro. Endgame overpopulation (particularly by spamming habitats) was powerful but frustrating. Still, it's strange how growth gets "neutered" on a state-level. Another reason to keep the AI empires around, perhaps, even as vassals (if you're trying to maximize the galaxy's strength in preparation for the crisis).
Post by: Telgin on April 18, 2021, 02:05:02 pm
There is a ton of similar complaining on their forums about it, and I really hope they tone it down or make it configurable. There's no way they tested this in late game and thought it was fine.
I'll probably be modding it out, even if I lose achievements.
Post by: EuchreJack on April 18, 2021, 04:48:33 pm
There's no way they tested this in late gameAgreed! :P
Post by: MrRoboto75 on April 18, 2021, 06:07:52 pm
even if I lose achievements.
...you guys play ironman?
Post by: Stench Guzman on April 18, 2021, 06:11:32 pm
even if I lose achievements.
...you guys play ironman?
I always play Ironman unless I want to test something in the console.
Out of all of Paradox's games, Stellaris is the easiest for achievements because you have so much control over the game settings. The only really tricky ones are the luck based ones, like the Galatron.
Post by: Telgin on April 18, 2021, 07:16:21 pm
even if I lose achievements.
...you guys play ironman?
Yeah, even in the rare event that I'm using mods I play ironman, mostly out of principle. It's pretty rare that something happens I'd want to save scum anyway, and it helps keep me honest.
Post by: IronyOwl on April 18, 2021, 07:42:00 pm
I mod and console the hell out of ck2, but mostly play Stellaris straight and almost never want to undo or redo things, so there's no real downside to it.even if I lose achievements.
...you guys play ironman?
Did screw up a recent game where I forgot vassals couldn't expand and therefore accepting a vassalization demand was an incredibly poor idea, but otherwise I don't even remember it's on until I'm quitting and there's no need to save.
Post by: Bralbaard on April 19, 2021, 01:57:45 am
Quote
...you guys play ironman?
I've played iron man up to now, (with a ton of mods) but recent experiences are making me reconsider. In both my last games my main fleet was completely destroyed by a bug (indestructible pirate ship) in the middle of a war, and it hurts a lot not to be able to save scum in such cases. Other than that I have to agree with Telgin, ironman keeps you honest and makes victories feel more meaningful.
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 19, 2021, 05:24:47 am
Post by: MorleyDev on April 19, 2021, 05:37:35 am
I honestly like it. It makes Raiding for pops a viable strategy for xenophobes again, and adds new factors into the Tall-vs-Wide discussion rather than 'Always Wide because Bureaucrats remove the downsides of wide'. It also makes it easier for empires to recover from a territory loss by giving them a population boom to bring you back up to speed. Makes the power structure of the galaxy more dynamic and come-from-behind victories possible.
And you can take advantage of that and basically be the Reapers/Wraiths, cyclically raiding for pops, letting an empire rebuild, then starting a fresh harvest.
A significant change it strategy you need to do in 3.0 to maximize pop growth is build your city districts before you need them. A planets free capacity increases the population growth rate. No more sitting carefully trying to time the building with the pop appearing optimally: Build a planets infrastructure straight away. Even then, your non-core worlds population should probably aim to be around 40.
If you wanted to sweaty it, you could always make vassals, let them rapidly breed, then integrate them to take advantage of their rapid growth. Less sweaty is it makes a feudal-type empire more viable, creating vassals from your sectors rather than owning them yourself.
In short, I think the change is overall a good one but it does require you to completely relearn how to play with the new pop system. Old strategies simply will not work, and I think that there is a bit of people:
a) Trying the old ways of growth and being annoyed they don't work.
b) Being off-put by the AI doing a better job of keeping up with the player, making people feel like they're doing relatively worse than they actually are.
----
So, bets on the next DLC? I'm betting something to do with Primitive Civilizations. They're due a rework, and the current Enlightenment/Infiltration was already a proto-Archeology system so I can see it being updated to use that instead.
Post by: LoSboccacc on April 19, 2021, 08:43:06 am
Post by: E. Albright on April 19, 2021, 08:54:20 am
Post by: Telgin on April 19, 2021, 09:23:06 am
The point of the empire pop penalty balance seems to be you have three choices come the mid-game: Conquest, Co-operation or Stagnation. You need to find external sources of pops or resources, rather than sitting in your corner and breeding pops. You can't just ignore the rest of the galaxy and expect to thrive.
This is what it ended up becoming but I don't think that was intentional. Making determined assimilators AAA tier while demoting fanatic pacifists to F tier probably wasn't deliberate, even if those determined assimilators were already very good and fanatic pacifists were arguably bad before. That said, I always liked to play turtling / inward perfectionist empires, so this essentially nerfed the way I liked to play the game very heavily. I can just play egalitarian federation builders until they change the system again, I guess.
Quote
In short, I think the change is overall a good one but it does require you to completely relearn how to play with the new pop system. Old strategies simply will not work, and I think that there is a bit of people:
a) Trying the old ways of growth and being annoyed they don't work.
b) Being off-put by the AI doing a better job of keeping up with the player, making people feel like they're doing relatively worse than they actually are.
I will say that after playing more, I realize the problem isn't the massive burning dumpster fire I thought it was, and is instead only a moderately large dumpster fire.
I've definitely had to relearn pop growth and job mechanics, and after doing so I'm less upset. Seeing the little red unemployment icon is no longer the giant red flag it used to be, since those pops will move to a planet with jobs and space now. In theory it lets new colonies grow by absorbing pops from other planets.
However, it still feels pretty bad with the tuning right now. I'd prefer to be able to continue to build up all of my planets and take advantage of their resources instead of using them as pop breeders for new colonies. And with the current tuning, ecumenopoleis and ring worlds are pretty terrible with this system. I have one ecumenopolis that I restored from a relic world that has 54 pops after 50 years or so, and a ring world segment that has 10 after 20 or so years.
And let's not forget that robot assembly plants are arguably actively detrimental after mid game, since they tie up a pop working the job and eat alloys every month. Right now it literally takes my empire over 10 years to make a robot pop for each planet, so the alloy cost to produce them has gotten kind of hilariously out of whack.
Quote
So, bets on the next DLC? I'm betting something to do with Primitive Civilizations. They're due a rework, and the current Enlightenment/Infiltration was already a proto-Archeology system so I can see it being updated to use that instead.
DLC focused around primitives could be pretty cool and I wouldn't mind it. I'll jump on the bandwagon from Paradox's forums and ask for internal politics again though. I'd really like to see mechanics for managing internal stability as a way to avoid blobbing instead of the somewhat hamfisted approaches they've used so far.
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 19, 2021, 10:00:30 am
And I didn't get the achievement.
It was fun, you need so much darkmatter
Post by: MorleyDev on April 19, 2021, 10:08:29 am
Personally I think they may have to eventually completely rebuild the pop system from scratch so pops don't actually 'exist' as anything but a counter, and previously associated 'happiness/ethics' values go to being per-planet rather than per-pop (since people don't tend to pay much attention to the per-pop values). But try pitching that to a manager, "You want us to take a year rewriting the core of the game engine...without any more work being able to be done because of how big a change it is...and without the ability to sell it as a DLC or even base a DLC on it?".
Instead, I think improving the current balance should be more about buffing the different tactics to be equal:
* Aggressive/Xenophobic empires that steal pops from other nations and depopulate the galaxy to fuel their industry are nerf'd by other nations wanting them dead and building up to alliances to fight them.
* Imperial empires that want to expand and cover the galaxy scale better if they do so via vassalage rather than direct rule.
* Robots strength is in their per-pop efficiency, countered by generally getting less pops.
* Xenophiles need to attract external immigration and to make trade deals and research deals to grow their resources.
Of course there's always going to be an optimal way to min-max-sweaty it, but I've never played a game where that wasn't true and Stellaris isn't meant to be competitive but roleplayed. It doesn't matter if there's an optimal way so long as the suboptimal ways are still fun.
Post by: E. Albright on April 19, 2021, 11:15:59 am
* Robots strength is in their per-pop efficiency, countered by generally getting less pops.
You could also do this with robots getting fewer pops but each pop representing more entities, which would imply efficiency at the cost of flexibility. Each one would have a higher impact, but you'd have fewer to spread around and they'd take more time to shift b/tw jobs.
Post by: LoSboccacc on April 19, 2021, 11:37:14 am
Quote
Stellaris isn't meant to be competitive but roleplayed
That's, like, your opinion
There's a buttload 4x space games that allow same or better roleplay, but like one that has proper multiplayer in it.
Post by: MorleyDev on April 19, 2021, 11:45:30 am
The design of Stellaris isn't for every empire to be equally competitive with every other empire. There are choices in events that are just mechanically superior, there are combinations of traits that just work better. Complaining that there's an "optimal" way to play alone is like complaining that it's more optimal to play as the Holy Roman Empire than as Iceland in Crusader Kings. That's the school of design that Stellaris comes from: That of setting up systems, balance for fun, and let it generate stories.
That's not opinion, that's the confessed design philosophy of the developers.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on April 19, 2021, 12:37:39 pm
What I meant is that, from a core design approach, there are things in Stellaris that are designed to be unbalanced. A Fanatic Purifier, with the exact same pops, ship numbers and designs, planets etc as a regular empire will be flat-out stronger than the regular empire.
The FP also basically has the entire diplomacy system disabled, though. It has to be stronger, because it can't have friends, share tech, or trade.
Speaking of the pop growth changes, FPs can't really make use of conquered pops, either. It has to kill them, or turn them into food I guess. And then somehow grow its own pops to replace them.
Post by: Telgin on April 19, 2021, 12:56:17 pm
Supposedly it uses the same algorithm as the AI to pick techs, which I assumed would mean it picked the cheapest or lowest level repeatable available to it, but it seems to either follow some algorithm I don't understand, or just picks randomly once it hits repeatables. I watched it pick Flash Coolant 4 times and ignore all of the other physics repeatables. I'd really prefer that it equally balance them out, or if it were particularly smart, ignore Applied Superconductivity if I had a positive energy balance.
Of course, I knew it was going to be less than satisfactory for engineering research since I don't use missiles and don't normally waste time researching those techs, where I expected it to pick them from the pool despite that. Guess I'll either have to supervise it anyway or just not use the feature.
Post by: MorleyDev on April 19, 2021, 01:51:03 pm
Post by: Telgin on April 19, 2021, 02:05:12 pm
Right now, it seems to prefer offensive fire rate techs over everything else, as it's picked Flash Coolant and Synapse Interceptors 4 times each and the others once or twice at most. Not a large sample size yet though.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on April 19, 2021, 02:06:05 pm
Post by: Telgin on April 19, 2021, 02:18:37 pm
I tried playing on ensign with my first 3.0 game so I could get used to it and I expect the AI handles things better on higher difficulties, but all of my neighbors have had at least 4 rebellions each by 2350 and all more or less fell apart and stopped being a threat around 2275. The militarists to my north also declared war on me twice despite me having several times their fleet power in defensive stations at each choke point, so they literally just sat there and did nothing. That may be working as intended with the new fog of war though, which is nice if the AI will actually try to pick fights with incomplete information since I might get some mid game entertainment now.
Post by: Iceblaster on April 19, 2021, 03:55:32 pm
Like sure call it a problem of complexity doing it, but I swear I never once had to worry about lag by pops whenever the planetary tile system existed, yet nowadays its the most common issues.
Post by: MorleyDev on April 19, 2021, 04:04:09 pm
The district/building system gives so many more options for planets to have specialization and roles and detail and for your core worlds to matter into the late game rather than just being "that place I used to have to care about before it filled up". I'd rather pops go away as discrete units and become just counters on a planet than they go back to that system. Give us the Vici 3 in space we all know Stellaris should be, darn it!
Before 3.0 I was mostly playing with Alphamod in part because Industrial districts just 'click' so much better for gameplay, and in part because being able to colonise asteroids and turn barren planets and stuff into habitats and have your entire home system colonised and nowhere else is fun. Actually made a custom mod based on 'Lightspeed' that makes building outposts cost nearly 1k influence until some midgame tech unlocks so that the entire galaxy couldn't be colonised for ages and you were forced to go tall and try and balance growth with food without access to agri planets.
Then you get the tech to expand at the midgame you launch the grand crusade!
---
Another thought I had is warfare is still probably the least directly interesting part of Stellaris. You can do interesting things, but against the AI more often Warfare itself is just "big number go brrrr" and don't pay much attention to countering their weaponry until the end game crisis comes.
Which got me thinking, I wonder if a system like HoI4 would work. So rather than building ships and sending them, you have frontlines at your hyperlanes that you have to expand out and into like HoI4 armies.
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 20, 2021, 07:18:56 am
Which got me thinking, I wonder if a system like HoI4 would work. So rather than building ships and sending them, you have frontlines at your hyperlanes that you have to expand out and into like HoI4 armies.It would work but it wouldn't feel like Stellaris. It is a really interesting idea though.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 20, 2021, 07:21:14 am
they keep trying to fix lag caused by pops and never once consider why performance was so much better when they had tiles :P
Like sure call it a problem of complexity doing it, but I swear I never once had to worry about lag by pops whenever the planetary tile system existed, yet nowadays its the most common issues.
IŽll take any performance improvement than I can get :P
I honestly dont get why the pops system is so inefficient. I do think that they should strongly reconsider that aspect of the game if they cannot optimize it.
Nemesis itself? Eh, itŽs fairly light content wise, I feel?
- The intelligence thing is neat but lighter and more limited than I expected
- The galactic federation into imperium thing, OK, itŽs there. havent tried that yet so I dont know how content heavy it is.
- Become the Nemesis seems meh? for practical intents and purposes itŽs kind of turning fanatical purifier midgame. Doesnt even have a particularily developed interface, I think? Could use some work.
ItŽs not bad in itself but some of its star points are grossly underdeveloped, and I get the feeling that other, previous, cheaper DLC like Lithoids or Necroids added more meaningful content for less
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 20, 2021, 08:48:31 am
Post by: Telgin on April 20, 2021, 08:51:46 am
I feel like they've probably done about all that can be done to optimize the work the game is doing per pop, so reducing the number of pops was the only way to improve it further. Mind you, I think they could have gotten away with just doing something like doubling resource output per job and halving the number of pops, which they did to a point, but then they slapped the empire penalty on top for extra confusion...
Quote
ItŽs not bad in itself but some of its star points are grossly underdeveloped, and I get the feeling that other, previous, cheaper DLC like Lithoids or Necroids added more meaningful content for less
I have similar feelings, but I've put over 1,000 hours into Stellaris so in a way I feel like spending money on the DLC wasn't outrageous for me. It feels a bit more egregious for me since I usually play peaceful isolationists who don't interfere with other empires, so the intelligence system wasn't going to get a lot of use by me anyway and there was no way I was going to use the Become The Crisis AP since I don't play evil empires to begin with and always thought that it was a little too on the nose as Evil Mode Engage.
Post by: MorleyDev on April 20, 2021, 09:28:45 am
For all the jokes about Paradox Testing, they actually spend every Friday evening playing a complete multiplayer game of Stellaris with the hot code to stress test things.
Post by: Great Order on April 20, 2021, 09:30:12 am
Why not make it so that the only time they're calculated is at the start of a month or on a planetary scale when a building or district? While there's still the same number of calculations per population tick, there's no longer 30 of the things in a month to slow things down.
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 20, 2021, 09:31:48 am
Good job guys.
Post by: Telgin on April 20, 2021, 09:59:51 am
Welp, the AI still can't cope with the economy.
For all the jokes about Paradox Testing, they actually spend every Friday evening playing a complete multiplayer game of Stellaris with the hot code to stress test things.
I do fully believe they do this, but it also seems like they rarely test single player, because the AI really did get dumber in this patch. As quoted above and as I mentioned before, I saw multiple rebellions in every AI empire in my last game because it can't manage the economy anymore at low difficulties.
I will say that the crisis seems to have finally gotten better. For the first time ever I got the Unbidden to spawn early by researching jump drives, and they completely cleaned my clock in 2425 on 5x since I wasn't ready for them. Maybe next game I'll survive long enough to see how they fare if they attack the galaxy at large instead of beelining for me.
The big pop issue I don't get is why do they do calculations on a daily basis? What's the point? Nearly everything else that relates to them is worked out on a monthly basis. Your resources tick on a monthly basis, your income updates on a monthly basis. Your research and traditions are done on a monthly basis. Pops migrate on a monthly basis as far as I'm aware. Pop growth is monthly.
Why not make it so that the only time they're calculated is at the start of a month or on a planetary scale when a building or district? While there's still the same number of calculations per population tick, there's no longer 30 of the things in a month to slow things down.
I know they talked about this at one point and I think some of the calculations are only done once per month now, but one of the concerns was that they wanted to give immediate player feedback, so doing daily calculations helped with that.
That said, I think the resource production calculations are only done once per month per pop now, and it's probably amortized so that each game day a fraction of the pops run their calculations. But when the galaxy has 50,000 pops in it it's still slow.
Post by: Great Order on April 20, 2021, 11:36:57 am
Everyone is my subject, bar a single planet fanatic purifier empire and an FE. My last war was against my parent empire (Since I did the Lost Colony origin).
I also discovered you can yoink the bonus from On the Shoulders of Giants. I integrated my protectorate just after they'd had that special system spawn, so I just hopped in there, finished the archaeology project, and got the Full Circle modifier.
Post by: MorleyDev on April 20, 2021, 11:39:22 am
I think they optimized the AI to manage itself well on higher difficulties, meaning on lower difficulties it can sometimes explode in on itself.
Although it'd be nice to be able to mix up the AI difficulty for different empires within a game, pick a range that AI empires get sorted into. Would be nice for some AI empires to explode in on themselves regardless since not every empire should be a success, rather than either all empires being dumdum or all empires being exponential boomboom.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 20, 2021, 12:01:46 pm
From my understanding, the pop system is inefficient just due to it's nature. They wanted every pop to have an ethic and happiness and such, which means every tick the game has to iterate through every pop to consider changes to every one of their stats. That is a heavy loop to run every game tick and causes significant lag lategame as it scales with number of pops AND number of factors affecting said pops.
Sounds like thatŽs something that should be abstracted into something more functional.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 20, 2021, 12:17:15 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 20, 2021, 12:28:18 pm
My headcanon is that theyŽre emergent programming from the ringworldŽs maintenance system subroutines. As such, their goals are to repair the ringworld and get up and running, and build tall instead of wide. Unless there are particular strategic resources to be taken from them, neighbouring organic empires would be made into tributaries rather than conquered outright.
Post by: EuchreJack on April 20, 2021, 12:35:34 pm
As a side note, IŽm really enjoying the machine intelligence I cooked up. Basic setup is a quickly replicating machine intelligence which starts in a ruined ringworld.
My headcanon is that theyŽre emergent programming from the ringworldŽs maintenance system subroutines. As such, their goals are to repair the ringworld and get up and running, and build tall instead of wide. Unless there are particular strategic resources to be taken from them, neighbouring organic empires would be made into tributaries rather than conquered outright.
One ring to rule them all indeed!
Post by: Rolan7 on April 20, 2021, 01:23:27 pm
Funnily enough at higher difficulties the AI has been reported as being quite improved. It'll deliberately seize chokepoints, launch coordinated wars on threats, and generally give you a harder time of things and keep you on your toes. A higher difficulty with scaling difficulty on can pull ahead of the player quite well long before the AI bonus mid-game peak.I really doubt the AI's any different, it's probably just the nature of its bonuses (https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Game_settings) on higher difficulties. There's a flat Stability bonus, cheap/free resettlement, and naturally a resource bonus. Considering that serious overcrowding is naturally mitigated now, I'm more surprised that the AI is still able to have revolts at all.
I think they optimized the AI to manage itself well on higher difficulties, meaning on lower difficulties it can sometimes explode in on itself.
Although it'd be nice to be able to mix up the AI difficulty for different empires within a game, pick a range that AI empires get sorted into. Would be nice for some AI empires to explode in on themselves regardless since not every empire should be a success, rather than either all empires being dumdum or all empires being exponential boomboom.
(Unless it gets vassalized by a player, of course, which immediately strips all of its bonuses... That must be crippling to an established empire on later difficulties, but I only play Captain)
As a side note, IŽm really enjoying the machine intelligence I cooked up. Basic setup is a quickly replicating machine intelligence which starts in a ruined ringworld.Nice! I also just started a MI on a ruined ringworld. It's an otherwise default Tebrid Homolog because, well... I like exploiting broken mechanics before they get patched, and I've never given Driven Assimilators a proper try before. Seems like an excellent time for it!
My headcanon is that theyŽre emergent programming from the ringworldŽs maintenance system subroutines. As such, their goals are to repair the ringworld and get up and running, and build tall instead of wide. Unless there are particular strategic resources to be taken from them, neighbouring organic empires would be made into tributaries rather than conquered outright.
And what luck, I spawned next door to a Federation :O Perfect for what I have in mind: A cluster of three homeworlds belonging to different "empires". They're mostly boxed in now, and I predict they're going to survive till the end of the game~
The plan is to keep them around and independent, but periodically raiding them for pops via Nihilistic Acquisition. By the endgame- heck, by the midgame they'll be my primary source of pops. Plus all that unity and society research I guess! I just have to protect them from the rest of the galaxy. I don't know how far I'll go with it though, I mostly just want to play with the loophole a bit. I'm not really invested in playing Borg.
Hm, rogue servitors can get nihilistic acquisition too... Oh but that'd be a heck of a challenge mode since the biotrophies would just prevent drones from being constructed :P I guess its a fine time to try authoritarian xenophiles too (again picking up nihilistic acquisition). Can't enslave species, but can technically use that wonky 40% slavery civic. Or play it nice with social welfare.
Post by: Great Order on April 21, 2021, 08:37:59 am
Post by: Criptfeind on April 21, 2021, 12:23:23 pm
Post by: Greatness942 on April 21, 2021, 12:27:51 pm
I was pulled back to playing stellaris with my friends recently, not played since early in the planet and economy update. I'm wondering if maybe we're just thinking about this wrong, or do machine empires (at least, not driven assimulator ones) seem ridiculously weak because their pop growth is super slow? Like, everyone else can get pop growth naturally but a machine empire has to build everybody, and they don't even build that much faster than roboticists and hiveminds build pop (who also get to grow naturally) and they have to pay more to do it. And then since population is basically the key to everything low pop robots just freaking suck, like, okay, they are slightly more efficient in some things then organics, but not nearly enough to make up for their slow pop growth. It doesn't really matter if a robot generator or scientist is like 20% better then a organic farmer or scientist if they have 1/2 or 1/3 the pop... Not to mention everyone else can conquer others for big quick boosts to population but robots are stuck with just the pops they can slowly grow themselves unless they get very lucky to neighbor another machine empire so past the early game it's really hopeless for them.
You're definitely going about it wrong. Machine Empires don't need certain resources (like food) and can gain access to powerful techs and ships down the line. If anything, I'd say they're easier than biological empires, at least by the mid-game.
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 21, 2021, 12:29:47 pm
Post by: Greatness942 on April 21, 2021, 12:36:43 pm
If Pop Growth is that much a dealbreaker to you, then just create a Machine Empire with the benefits of pop growth traits and Civics.
Post by: Telgin on April 21, 2021, 01:43:53 pm
For an amusing anecdote, I tried a void dweller start where I'm only putting robots on planets. This was already a not great idea in 2.8, but the pop assembly speed is so low I'm expecting these planets to have ~10 pops by end game. A normal build would never do this, but I just want to see what happens.
Post by: Iceblaster on April 22, 2021, 11:47:31 am
they keep trying to fix lag caused by pops and never once consider why performance was so much better when they had tiles :P
Like sure call it a problem of complexity doing it, but I swear I never once had to worry about lag by pops whenever the planetary tile system existed, yet nowadays its the most common issues.
Post by: Telgin on April 22, 2021, 12:59:58 pm
Going back to tiles, or even reduced pop counts from that era, would be pretty hard though. By adding intermediate steps in the production pipeline for things like alloys and consumer goods, they made it harder to make the jobs less granular.
On another note, I've discovered that the Galactic Custodian logic is a little... wonky. I'm actually not sure what criteria it uses to choose the custodian, but in my current game I had the ketlings spawn in a system in my empire that was isolated and despite the fact that they had one system, locked into my empire with closed borders, they were elected the custodians who were supposed to fight off the Great Khan.
I think they may actually have the strongest fleet in the galaxy, so maybe that's why. The spawned with 5k fleet power despite having no industrial base, and certainly had more than I did at the time because oh boy a habitat only empire sucks in 3.0 without majorly gaming the system. It's so hard to get more than about 15 pops on a habitat... and balancing your economy is quite tough with that, the janky pop growth, and the fact that you're burning 5 alloys per month per habitat in upkeep...
Post by: Great Order on April 22, 2021, 01:08:58 pm
The guys that supported me becoming custodian (and after that, the emperor) all loved me to bits, anyone that was just happy with me or disliked me were all opposed. I had no abstentions in that vote.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 22, 2021, 05:34:29 pm
I was pulled back to playing stellaris with my friends recently, not played since early in the planet and economy update. I'm wondering if maybe we're just thinking about this wrong, or do machine empires (at least, not driven assimulator ones) seem ridiculously weak because their pop growth is super slow? Like, everyone else can get pop growth naturally but a machine empire has to build everybody, and they don't even build that much faster than roboticists and hiveminds build pop (who also get to grow naturally) and they have to pay more to do it. And then since population is basically the key to everything low pop robots just freaking suck, like, okay, they are slightly more efficient in some things then organics, but not nearly enough to make up for their slow pop growth. It doesn't really matter if a robot generator or scientist is like 20% better then a organic farmer or scientist if they have 1/2 or 1/3 the pop... Not to mention everyone else can conquer others for big quick boosts to population but robots are stuck with just the pops they can slowly grow themselves unless they get very lucky to neighbor another machine empire so past the early game it's really hopeless for them.
They are ludicruloisly strong, esp if you use one of the special starts (ringworld, machine planet) and combine it with fast assembly from traits and civics. Early on it will be fairly strong but not unreasonably so. Down the line you'll be making so much base resources that you wont know what to do with them. I'm regularly buying alloys just to avoid topping up my energy reserves and THEN selling minerals to avoid topping up the mineral reserves.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 23, 2021, 02:25:16 pm
Nothing I've played compares to this in terms of sheer pop speed.
Post by: Telgin on April 23, 2021, 04:26:01 pm
"We know you hate it, but we know better so just hang in there."
Also, if the Galactic Custodian empire is destroyed, the game crashes. Known bug that I hope is fixed in 3.0.3, since it makes my current save unplayable. The Ketlings, in their tiny little 1 system empire that keeps getting elected, were magically destroyed by something despite being isolated within my borders. After the popup about the custodian being destroyed, the game consistently freezes or crashes.
I should have let the Grey Tempest eat them when I was aware enough to reject their nomination. If nothing else, the struggles of this habitat only run made fighting the Grey Tempest a lot rockier since I could barely scrape together 50K fleet power. I wouldn't have even bothered to open the L-gate if another empire weren't in the process of trying to do the same. As an aside, I kind of hate dealing with the Grey Tempest since their motherships can 1-shot battleships with their titan weapon so I consistently lose exactly 1 every single fight. The shot must bypass shields and armor. Maybe crystal plating gives them enough HP to survive that, but I haven't tried it. Advanced hulls alone aren't enough.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 23, 2021, 04:52:04 pm
I tried again as a friendly federation building tree of life hive and it's super effective. My allies kept getting rebellions which I "helped" with, grabbing dozens of pops each time. The xenophage modifier is very kind or even nonexistent depending on ethics- as long as you aren't promising to do it to everyone I suppose! And I grabbed evolution mastery fast which lets me welcome the pops to the collective~
I missed an opportunity to play as hiveminded "humans" in Alpha Centauri as a SMAC reference, poo. I renamed some things anyway.
Kinda want to be a legit nice Custodian, and use espionage to break up federations so they'll join me peacefully, but I think I can wait. Enjoying the update though, wonky state-wide pop ceiling aside. And the performance might be worth it. Particularly not so bad for federations and vassalizers since it's by state.
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 23, 2021, 05:13:21 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on April 23, 2021, 05:18:49 pm
On the plus side it will never ever happen again :D
... :-\ ... :o
Post by: Great Order on April 24, 2021, 11:16:03 am
Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killerBe wary; Triumphant pride precipitates a dizzying fall.
Post by: Egan_BW on April 24, 2021, 11:30:45 am
Post by: MrRoboto75 on April 24, 2021, 12:12:57 pm
I signed some migration treaties to actually have planets. The planets are somehow breeding lithoids in spite of only being friends with carbon-based life, and I can't find their home planet on the map anywhere. The rock people also don't show up on the colonize menu, which is a little annoying since as lithoids I should be able to slap them anywhere, and I have plenty of worlds barely suitable to the species I do have access to.
All these imported species is turning my corp more spiritualist than militarist though. I've had to ban robutts to please that budding faction, although I headcannon the AI ban over finding the determined exterminator to the galactic 'south.'
The new intel fog-of-war system kinda sucks as a corp. You need tons of info before you can start building branch offices, because you can't actually 'see' their settled worlds.
Also, I'm some sort of associate to the local federation? As far as I can tell I'm not an actual full member, I can't access the federation window. Guess I need the tradition for it?
One of the first contacts consisted of a literal shouting match, as apparently their language/voice consisted of very loud, aggressive yelling.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 24, 2021, 06:15:57 pm
In my current game, my first federation member *still* has a like -80 opinion by my empire for them blowing up our research ship as a first contact event. Apparently our hivemind doesn't forget or forgive O_o
Being a federation associate is mostly just a non-aggression pact with that federation. You can only be associated with one federation though, and the trust cap might be better - it's a common step on the way to joining them. You don't need the tradition, you only need that to create your own!
(Edit: If they're reluctant to accept your petition to join then you can spend up to 10 favors to get +50 on your request, though it still needs to pass a federation vote in most cases)
Treaties like migration treaties grant some minimum intel which hopefully is helping you find their colonies. I'm not clear how that works and I don't have the DLC. Even without the DLC you can do espionage to run "gather information" ops, but it costs envoy time and a considerable energy cost for... questionable results. It seems to stop being much of an issue, at least as a federation member or with lots of treaties, but maybe there are midgame uses for it.
No idea why those lithoids aren't showing up on the colony ship interface. You ought be to be seeing every species that can possibly migrate, AFAIK. Particularly once you have a full pop of them in your empire. It sorta sounds like you have migration controls on that species, but surely that's not the default under xenophile ethics...?
Post by: MrRoboto75 on April 24, 2021, 10:15:49 pm
Another unusual thing is there's three wormholes in my territory, two are only a jump away from each other, the third only a few jumps from there. Just got the tech to make use of them.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 24, 2021, 10:33:19 pm
I figured it out, those lithoids are serviles, as one of the empires had the syncretic origin. In other words, when they migrated here they brought theirOooh AI serviles are such a rare or generally-unimportant occurrence that I'd never noticed that! I've learned something!petsservants as well. And so you cannot colonize with them, they're too dumb. Maybe I can gene mod them to do bureaucratic paperwork...
Another unusual thing is there's three wormholes in my territory, two are only a jump away from each other, the third only a few jumps from there. Just got the tech to make use of them.It's always great when that happens! I don't remember if claiming the other end is cheap (I think it is) but maybe I'm thinking about the "distance" modifier for various diplomacy options not considering the wormhole.
(which means you are encouraged to claim and grab the other end, so you can later do proper diplomacy)
Post by: MorleyDev on April 25, 2021, 05:43:30 pm
All hail our energy being overlords, I guess.
Post by: Telgin on April 25, 2021, 07:29:41 pm
Post by: MorleyDev on April 25, 2021, 10:16:27 pm
Quote from: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/stellaris-dev-diary-208-nemesis-patch-notes.1466104/
* It is now possible for the endgame crisis to happen in the first 50 years of the endgame in certain circumstances. These are:
* * No living fallen empires / awakened fallen empires;
* * War in Heaven not happening, concluded, or started 15 years ago;
* * A country has researched jump drives or psi jump drives (only the Unbidden can happen in the first 50 years in this case)
* Nuked old script to randomize which crisis shows up. Now it is simply purely a random choice that is random (with the chance of any crisis happening increasing the more years pass in the endgame).
Definitely had living fallen empires, though none had awakened. But has also researched Jump Drives so...brought it on myself, really.
Post by: Telgin on April 25, 2021, 10:56:52 pm
At higher difficulties I imagine the AI researches the tech sometimes by 2400 though, so I wonder if this only applies if a player empire researches it.
Post by: EuchreJack on April 26, 2021, 12:01:45 am
Post by: MorleyDev on April 26, 2021, 07:01:05 am
My home system that was built up extremely tall (habitats everywhere fed from two Ecumonopolioses...Ecumonopoli? Ecumonopodes?, Earth and Mars) since I was releasing my sectors as vassals to keep my pop growth up. So I didn't even get to see the unbidden eat the galaxy.
My mood literally went from "Yay, the Fallen Empire has awoken!" to "Oh no, the Fallen Empire has awoken!" in five minutes.
Post by: LoSboccacc on April 26, 2021, 02:32:37 pm
the Fallen Empire next door awoke as Benevolent Interventionalists. And immediately declared war on me. A war I didn't have the option to surrender in.
you should have got an option to submit beforehand, the popup isn't immediately clear and many dismiss it, but the only way out from that war is to become a subject before it starts and rebel later.
Post by: Duuvian on April 27, 2021, 05:45:53 am
I'm stuck in sprawl real bad, I keep having new vassals offer themselves to me just as I get the previous integrated and all the worlds the AI failed to rush to settle colonized.
However there is a growing despoilers empire to their west so maybe it makes sense from the Ai's point of view? There sure are a lot of slaves on that market I tell you what, I might play goblins next time instead of dwarves with the population changes.
I'm likely reaching the point where I should be splitting off vassals and not realizing it, but since my vassals are handing me navies of ships a tier or two above what I could make I'm still the biggest power.
I started with advanced empires off, 20 civs at start on 1000 star 4 spiral arm if I remember correctly. I think I set it to the difficulty that it defaults to with scaling off. In previous games advanced empires were what made me stop expanding easily. I turned them off but it might have changed the power balance really heavily towards the player. I think the next one maybe I'll try maxxing the advanced slider instead and see what happens. The empires I'm taking over are in really rough shape; they don't go for stability at all it seems like.On the bright side my alloys turned completely around after one of the larger vassals had a nice forgeworld with all industry districts; though it's amenities were tanked and it was unstable.
I thought it would have some form of tantrum spiral when consumer goods tanked from low stability from the flawed innoculation event causing the huge -20 happiness empirewide, but I just stopped building robots for 10 years or whatever it was and sold the advanced resources I wasn't using.
At some point I gave up on admin capacity and just started putting down resources until the borders finally settle.
I think I should start a new game, this one was too easy so far.
EDIT: I also made smarty research engineer dwarves instead of miner dwarves this time. That was because the game right before I was stuck in a tiny little box between advanced Empires and quit out after a century or so. I got the huge sprawl on the research player species and not the raw material player species of course.
EDIT2: It seemed like corporate governments were faring poorly, most if not all of my mini vassals that were not enlightened primitive species were rebels from corporate empires. I think the big vassals who requested to be my vassal were also corporate governments. The machine species empire I am bordering has managed to hang on, and Imperial and Dictatorships also seem to be surviving, though the two big ones are also despoilers and I think allied possibly. I still have a much larger fleet than them due to the inheritences. Maybe I just made a galaxy with me on one side, a number of corps in between and then a whole lot of slavers.
Spoiler: Large Image (click to show/hide)
Post by: Great Order on April 27, 2021, 08:59:25 am
Sometimes they don't let you become a subject. Not sure if that's a bug or not.the Fallen Empire next door awoke as Benevolent Interventionalists. And immediately declared war on me. A war I didn't have the option to surrender in.
you should have got an option to submit beforehand, the popup isn't immediately clear and many dismiss it, but the only way out from that war is to become a subject before it starts and rebel later.
I had it in one of my games where they were determined to take my land. I couldn't surrender (As in the option was greyed out), I couldn't submit to them pre-war (because I knew I couldn't take them, but there was a -1000 modifier), and they'd refuse a white peace on account of them carving me up like a spit-roast pig.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 27, 2021, 10:29:06 am
When the crisis was defeated that option disappeared and they were back to collecting signatures, though they didn't harass my federation as we were far stronger. And I let them exist because they did help out against the crisis. Whereas the Xenophobe FE was learning about multiculturalism :P
(And I got to crack open their shielded worlds! That was !!!fun!!!)
Post by: MorleyDev on April 28, 2021, 12:37:12 pm
I shall bring peace and prosperity to my new empire!
Post by: Duuvian on May 01, 2021, 12:47:41 am
Also using 3x research times. I didn't sprawl so hard this time because of the 30 empires I think. I still got a nice chunk of the bottom edge of the galaxy, enough to split off to a couple of vassals pretty soon once I finally scape together enough resources for the last colony ships so the Ai is growing pops on the colonizable worlds. That way I'm not throwing so many consumber goods into the administration building bonfires.
Spoiler: early game screenshot, had custom empires spawn next to me out of luck (click to show/hide)
I found a possible bug too. I found a ratlike species (Ketlings I think) living on tomb worlds, and the worlds could not be surveyed because they were settled. The survey ship could be ordered to survey, and would start, but at the start of the next month would cancel it. I had to invade those planets at which point they were unable to be surveyed as I controlled them. The ratlike species is pretty terrible except for trade value bonus and psionic, so I just made their tomb worlds trading worlds. I'd make them leaders due to the psionics and because they have enough population to show up once in a while, but they are fleeting as well.
I also went Unity + mineral production player species this time. I decided to try a Unity species because I take usually take Feudal for better vassals and Aristocratic for the Noble Estates building, which gives unity and +5 stability per Noble job. It would have been a great game for the Intelligent Engineer dwarves I made last game though, I have a planet with +20% Engineering research doh
Spoiler: current map (click to show/hide)
I have no idea why my resources are so negative in the screenshot. Sometimes it just does that a few months and then goes back to positives for some reason. Bug? Something I don't know I should be doing? I dunno.
EDIT: Might be the unemployed pops doing something to the resources, I fell behind due to having to sell minerals for a while. I colonized about 20 planets at once and they are just starting to become productive.
Post by: LoSboccacc on May 01, 2021, 08:28:57 am
Quote
I have no idea why my resources are so negative in the screenshot.
You moving fleets? If that puts you into the negative for energy it also hits your jobs efficiency, hard.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 01, 2021, 11:11:20 am
Post by: Telgin on May 01, 2021, 11:44:04 am
Post by: Telgin on May 03, 2021, 12:26:03 am
Can't decide if I should just bump up the end game year to compensate or try to avoid jump drives for 50 years myself and hope the AI is too bad at the game to get to that point. I tried bumping it up to Captain and the AI still gets tons of rebellions so I'm not sure they could get to jump drives by 2400.
Maybe 5x is just the best I should expect to be able to beat now, but I used to be able to reliably beat the Unbidden on 10x. Even though pops are worth more now, I used to have 4k+ pops by 2450 when they could spawn, but now I have to keep facing the crises with 1.3k pops in 2410 and it's not even close to the economic output. The pop growth changes in 3.0.3 help, but ring worlds are still garbage. They're not remotely worth the alloys and rare resource upkeep when 50 years of pop growth gives you 15 pops on each section, even with automatic migration. I had 2 ecumenopoleis that only got up to about 75 pops by the time I surrendered.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on May 03, 2021, 10:19:36 am
Post by: MorleyDev on May 03, 2021, 10:25:31 am
But I usually play low empire count + high primitives because I like that the galaxy has a mix of tech level empires at once. I've before played a huge galaxy with no other empires but 5 fallen/3 marauder and modded 25x primitives, and just...stayed in a corner with a tall empire and a few vassals and watched the galaxy do it's thing.
As for ring worlds, I find the trick is to create them in their own sector and release it as a vassal. Let them build up and then put in the effort to reintegrate them in a decade or two. Earlier I described that as gaming the system, but thinking on it I actually like the mechanic of having to leave sectors to be semi-independent and then put in work to reintegrate them later. Isn't that literally how colonies worked in real life, being left to their own devices to establish themselves then their parent empire coming in and taking control?
Vassals from sectors will grow faster in pops than sectors at the moment, so releasing sectors as vassals means only that vassals pops count towards their growth rate rather than your entire empire.
Plus the AI changes to make the AI more aggressive means that Vassals actually can help in war for a change. When I went to war with an Awakened Empire I basically didn't need to field armies because my vassal kept sending 10x Gene Warriors to invade the planets, and since I'd already took the starbase I still got the planet after they conquered it for me.
Also, thing to remember: big planets are for specialists, small planets are for resources and pops. You don't want to fully develop a small planet, you want it to be a backwater that feeds your larger and more important planets.
Rather than buffing up pop rates for empires again, I kinda think Paradox should focus more on interactions with vassals, sectors, and federations as a way of building up your powerbase. Maybe make vassals give you some resources, and automated sectors closer to micro-vassals?
Post by: Telgin on May 03, 2021, 11:21:34 am
I primarily build ring worlds for research too, and releasing them as vassals removes most of the point of that.
Lastly, I guess ring worlds really are just bad now since they halved the size of segments and doubled their number without decreasing the rare resource upkeep. So they're very expensive on top of sucking. Maybe that will get fixed in the next patch.
Post by: Duuvian on May 04, 2021, 03:50:43 am
Vassals from sectors will grow faster in pops than sectors at the moment, so releasing sectors as vassals means only that vassals pops count towards their growth rate rather than your entire empire.
Plus the AI changes to make the AI more aggressive means that Vassals actually can help in war for a change. When I went to war with an Awakened Empire I basically didn't need to field armies because my vassal kept sending 10x Gene Warriors to invade the planets, and since I'd already took the starbase I still got the planet after they conquered it for me.
Also, thing to remember: big planets are for specialists, small planets are for resources and pops. You don't want to fully develop a small planet, you want it to be a backwater that feeds your larger and more important planets.
Rather than buffing up pop rates for empires again, I kinda think Paradox should focus more on interactions with vassals, sectors, and federations as a way of building up your powerbase. Maybe make vassals give you some resources, and automated sectors closer to micro-vassals?
I've been making Feudal empires for a while but in the past I've run into two factors with deciding when starting vassals. The first is that I was worried that basically I would be turning a big piece of the empire into something that just sits there, even if recently pops grow faster. Since the update I've seen my accumulated rather than created vassals making fine navies for their size if I send them alloys, but I wasn't sure if they would use the ships to expand or even to help me out, or just sit there, so I've hesitated to make new vassals even though I'm in a great spot to do so in my current game I think.
The other was sprawl; in the previous version I was better able to keep up with it so that there wasn't much need for a vassal when I could make a consumer good sector instead. I think it's better now because I can never keep up with sprawl, so I'll have to establish some vassals for a while and maybe reintegrate them once I have better tech or a solid resource base or whatnot. I guess I hope it works good and that whatever madness it ends up with in the planetary build choices is a positive for the main empire instead of many rebellions due to lack of amenities or something. It would be cool to be able to influence a vassal, like tell them hey you should focus consumer goods or motes and trade them to me in an ongoing trade. I haven't tried that yet so I don't know if even vassals would accept a multi year trade or if those are turned off like system trades for the AI.
EDIT: Also I think I read about Imperium up above, dang, I was going to try that last update they had so I could revise my review if deserved. That game had some potential, was going to give the new update a try and re-review it on Steam because that was the only Paradox game I've at least recently gave a bad review on. It seemed like they were trying to make it better., and I had heard good things about 2.0 or whatnot; I was just going to give it time while doing other things while they ironed it out. oopsie
Post by: Bralbaard on May 06, 2021, 08:53:46 am
I started a playthrough as a corporation at commodore level, and got an advanced start neighbour (the Giranshu) This empire also managed to conquer a planet with a very large primitive civilisation in the first decade. I expected that I was going to have great problems catching up with them, but instead their empire was split into two when the primitives rebelled in 2214.
I had opened a branch office on their homeworld so I have some insights in what went wrong for them. Apparently they had assigned a corrupt official to govern their home sector, this drives up crime and instability for their homeworld to the point that my branch office generated a net loss each turn (I'm a normal corporation by the way, not a crime syndicate). The situation in the rest of their empire must have been even more dire with the unhapiness effects that conquest of primitives tend to give, and this must have resulted in the rebellion. It probably did not help hapiness that the Giranshu were slavers either.
Anyhow when the Giranshu finally beat the rebels into submission their empire had collapsed and the corrupt governor was still in power, so this will likely repeat in a few years time. Refugees are fleeing their empire in droves, I'm getting 3 or 4 pops as refugees each year.
The AI should at the very least replace that corrupt governor. Also, the rest of the galaxies AIs appear to be doing just as poorly, it is only 2220 now and the victory tab says I'm in fifth position for victory., Only the Fallen empires are ahead of me and I'm well clear of the rest. I had sworn I would finally play a game to the end game, but I'm feeling a terrible itch to restart.
I'm not sure if all of this can be blamed on the game itself however, I'm playing with some mods, that may well have made things worse (potent rebellions), I'll remove it from my mod list, I guess..
Post by: Rolan7 on May 06, 2021, 10:04:15 am
Likewise, the existence of useless governors like that rewards the player for replacing them. I used to think of that as annoying busywork. But now that I've played some multiplayer games where everyone wants to avoid pausing the game constantly, I see how it's an actual skill to be multitasking and checking up on such things. Player attention becomes a limited resource and there are small or huge consequences for missing stuff. I was shocked and delighted to see the subterranean empire burst to the surface and claim one of my first planets, because apparently that happens if you accidentally forget the special projects! My friends and I ended up welcoming them into our federation and they played a clutch role later against the Khan.
Just a ramble about how "success" isn't really the AI's purpose. Of course in some patches it's been too silly/incompetent and stretched credulity that way. Maybe that's the case here though I haven't personally experienced much trouble.
Post by: Egan_BW on May 06, 2021, 10:37:58 am
Post by: Damiac on May 06, 2021, 10:44:22 am
That raises an interesting point about Paradox AI design. Replacing that governor immediately is definitely the best move (the 200 energy is almost never going to be too costly). But the AI isn't designed to make the best moves, it's designed to make as interesting-looking a galaxy as possible. Having a neighboring empire fall to pieces because of a bad governor is interesting and even a little surprising, and that means their AI design worked in that case.You're cutting them way too much slack.
Likewise, the existence of useless governors like that rewards the player for replacing them. I used to think of that as annoying busywork. But now that I've played some multiplayer games where everyone wants to avoid pausing the game constantly, I see how it's an actual skill to be multitasking and checking up on such things. Player attention becomes a limited resource and there are small or huge consequences for missing stuff. I was shocked and delighted to see the subterranean empire burst to the surface and claim one of my first planets, because apparently that happens if you accidentally forget the special projects! My friends and I ended up welcoming them into our federation and they played a clutch role later against the Khan.
Just a ramble about how "success" isn't really the AI's purpose. Of course in some patches it's been too silly/incompetent and stretched credulity that way. Maybe that's the case here though I haven't personally experienced much trouble.
The AI sucks because the AI sucks. It sucked from day 1, and as they keep changing major systems it's just kept sucking in different ways. They can't iteratively improve on it because they keep having to teach it to play a different game.
Back when the game was new they bragged about how great the AI was and how it didn't cheat. Then players discovered, actually, it cheats a LOT. After lying and denying it for a while they eventually came clean.
Because of the varied ways it cheats, you can't use tactics that would work on a human, and the tactics you can successfully use on the AI are stupid and wouldn't work against humans. In a game where supply lines and war fatigue are simulated to some degree, it breaks down when one of the players doesn't have to play by those rules.
The idea that the AI is shitty so that real time multiplayer has more penalties for forgetting to do basic stuff is a stretch. I suppose it could be considered an example of emergent gameplay if you're feeling generous...
Post by: Nelia Hawk on May 06, 2021, 12:30:30 pm
makes me wish we COULDNT just replace governors with the click of a button, but instead have to workaround it.
it kind of reminds me of crusader kings were you get some maluses for just replacing people and it might be better to just keep a bad guy in council than throwing them out and half their family rebelling aganist you or so.
it would be cool if such a corrupt governor would be a thron in your side and you are happy, if you got rid of them after 30 years of them doing bad stuff in their sector.
but stellaris is more about grand strategy decisions and doesnt worry much about one governor.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on May 06, 2021, 06:53:43 pm
Speaking of leaders, for my megacorp I named the leader's title as "Final Boss" so I get messages like "The Final Boss died" or whatever.
Post by: Duuvian on May 06, 2021, 09:18:27 pm
It seems like the AI just usually lets them go, maybe because they are in such economic trouble themself. In the first game I started I was able to nab some star systems from my friendly neighbor who I was in a research Federation I started with them. I would guarentee their rebels, send the rebels some envoys and alloys, and then make the rebel a vassal until I could integrate them. My ally did not mind one bit it seemed.
That was in the difficulty setting that gave the AI empires no bonus though, and had no advanced start Empires (unless Fallen/stagnant count) with 2.5x I think research multiplier.
Really governors should follow your government type. So if you're democratic they're voted in by election just like the main ruler, or if you're monarchy maybe they're royal family or in line for the main throne.
That could be cool. Maybe planets could differ in their own government type from yours if you aren't an authoritarian leaning Empire too, and choose their governor in that way unless your Empire ethics combo or whatnot allows you to try to change the planet's government type. That way if you take a planet from a different type of Empire, you'd have to either deal with it being a different government system on the planet or try to change it in whatever way your ethics allow. I do end up with a whole lot of Unity I can't figure out how to use once all the Traditions trees are unlocked...
That might be better if planets/colonies could someday have a designated leader in addition to the sector governor for multiple star systems.
Post by: Iceblaster on May 07, 2021, 07:38:18 am
Post by: Duuvian on May 08, 2021, 12:57:04 am
Post by: Telgin on May 08, 2021, 10:58:42 am
Post by: Rolan7 on May 08, 2021, 11:21:02 am
A welcome change, though anyone with a current save should be aware that the changes also removed the extra jobs created by upgraded resource buildings and replaced them with increased job efficiency. You may have some redevelopment to do.Oh *hell* yes!!
Edit: To expand on this now that I'm at my computer, I don't like the way the upgrades for the furnace and factory sites create more jobs in each district. I guess it's interesting that the number of specialist jobs increases a lot as you increase in tech and rare resources, but that sorta sucks when your population growth is probably tanked by the time you get to the good stuff. In general I prefer the concept of specialists becoming more efficient, not more numerous.
Maybe it's because there are already good options for gaining more specialist jobs: Ecumenopoli and habitat-spam. And ecumenopli are not exactly an obvious pick in 3.0, so maybe this brings them back a bit. At least in my unscientific feeling.
Post by: Telgin on May 09, 2021, 12:04:18 am
Small aside, but I had an interesting interaction with the galactic community in my current game and actually shot myself in the foot for the first time. I helped pass the tiyanki conservation act early after the GC was formed, and later discovered the tiyanki matriarch. After amassing enough fleet power to fight it, I was promptly informed that the tiyanki matriarch is indeed a tiyanki, and that I was now in breach of galactic law. Oops.
What's funnier is that a few years later I got a stern letter asking me to bring myself into compliance with galactic law, which I couldn't do since I wasn't actively breaking the law, and nothing happened when I said okay. At least the sanctions only lasted 10 years, and not many sanction laws had been passed.
Post by: MorleyDev on May 10, 2021, 08:53:41 am
Basically you can't realistically expand in time, so the challenge is to get your habitats built and pops migrated to them before Earth goes kaboomie without running out of all your resources, then you're basically playing as voidborne without the buffs. Then from this seat above the ashes of Earth-that-was, unite the scattered remnants of humanity.
I quite like the feel of expansion being expensive for the first half of the game, means you get to really invest in the areas you have and also encourages smaller vassal-driven empire building and habitats/megastructures over just blobbing out. Plus even by the late game there can still be uncolonised sectors of the galaxy to explore or be threatened from, so the opposite side of the galaxy to you isn't just a mesh of other empires you largely ignore.
Post by: Bralbaard on May 17, 2021, 02:23:43 am
I cracked open the L-cluster very early (2250) and the grey tempest rushed out of the gates. I was utterly unprepared.
In my defense: I did not know that could happen. I only opened the L-cluster once before and it was a friendly, happy place that time.
There are no good chokepoints in my part of the galaxy. When I opened the cluster I had a combined fleet strenght of 3k, and over the last decade I managed to bring that up to 11k. That is not nearly enough to face them, but if I can avoid direct confrontation for another decade I might be fine. I'm focussing on tech and buildings that increase my naval cap. I have so far only lost two systems and maybe three or four science ships.
On the bright side, the crisis is giving me a lot of free pops. refugees are fleeing to my gaia world from everywhere. I've got citizens from 12 different races in my empire right now.
Post by: Telgin on May 17, 2021, 08:47:39 am
You can also try building ships to counter them, but I'm not sure what the best build even is since I always try to delay opening the L-cluster until I have at least 60k in fleet power, which is going to be in battleships. Battleships definitely work, but my experience in fighting the Gray Tempest is that they still kind of suck. The nanite titans will consistently one-shot a battleship with their titan weapon in almost every engagement, which makes me wonder if smaller ships that can avoid the shots are better. The nanite ships use lots of strike craft too though, so smaller ships may be more vulnerable to those. This may actually be a decent case for building point defense heavy destroyer fleets, but I've never tried it against them.
60k in battleships is usually enough to keep you safe, if you can afford to replace one every few months, but it won't be enough to stop the Gray Tempest as a whole. You're going to need a fair bit more for that.
Post by: Bralbaard on May 17, 2021, 09:58:04 am
Based on what I have seen so far I was going to go for pd heavy destroyers mixed with cruisers for firepower. I have just got battlecruiser tech but they just take too long to build, and if they are gone in one shot that will be a waste of resources, unless I have a lot of them.
I also have a relic that apparently will give my ships a significant boost in battle if timed right. (Vultaum reality perforator). I've never used it but I'll keep it charged for when I'll need it.
Edit: This will not end well. I had hoped to get at least 2 decades to prepare but I only got 8 years and the first fleet will attack next month. I have a 27 K fleet versus his 31k fleet, so the odds are not good to start with.
What is worse is that there are TWO other 31K fleets right behind the first. I expect one of them to strike within months after the first, possible while the first battle is still going, the other is distracted with glassing the homeworld of my neighbour and will likely arrive a year later. I have some hope to abuse what I've observed about their pathfinding too divert one fleet, but it is a long shot.
Post by: Bralbaard on May 19, 2021, 05:11:14 am
(https://i.imgur.com/nkzYW3A.png)
General Lishtima looked nervously at his data pad. He had observed the nanite swarms for years and had found that they always seemed to path to the nearest occupied system, in an attempt to purge the galaxy as efficiently as possible. Over the last year the Luuvisk had made terrible sacrifices to take advantage of this fact. Several valuable systems had been abandonded. Their science and mining stations destroyed, and their outposts scuttled. This was done to carve empty corridors through Luuvisk space to guide the incoming nanite swarms to the desired direction, as there were no good choke points in nearby space, and fleets were ariving from three directions. He had even ordered the destruction of the mighty Irriamun defense station, this massive station was one of the most powerful ever build, but it was in a location that would have compromised his strategy.
Constructors had been send out to claim a number of systems at great influence cost to further guide the enemy ships, but Lishtima did not know if they had been succesful. All he could do was wait.
Suddenly the alarms sounded, a fleet was dropping out of warp at the system's edge.
It was not the nanite swarm, but a small fleet of first generation corvettes that had been recalled from pirate patrol duty on the far side of the empire. These ships were over 65 years old, and had never seen an upgrade since. They would not make a noteworthy difference in the total fleet power that had been gathered here. Still general Lishtima opened comms and greeted them as equals. In this final hour, all would stand together.
The massive base orbiting the central star was the core asset of the allied fleet in the Shard's Nest system. It packed 14k of raw power, and was even larger than the decommissioned Irriamun base. The three orbiting fleets together had a similar calculated value. Lishrima had 28K under his command but still felt completely unprepared.
He and everyone else in the fleet knew that three fleets of 31k were approaching.
The nanite swarm warped into Shard's Nest. This particular fleet was responsible for the destruction of both the Tarvarite empire and the Huvidi-Zaan, once the largest empire on this side of the galaxy. In addition it had, over the last few years, reduced the core worlds of the Cithin empire to nanite dust.
The mothership quickly and methodically identified the targets in this system; a large base and several fleets of mismatched ships. Like it had done countless times before, it calculated optimal trajectories and then fired it's weapons: massive swarms of missiles and other nanite ammunition.
The projectiles tore through the vacuum towards the Luuvisk fleet; At the last moment the local dust cloud was lit up by the fire of hundreds of point defense beams. The void filled with massive explosions that obscured the battlefield from view, the radiation oversaturating even high tech sensors. All was silent.
the mothership was almost ready to set course to the next system, expecting the enemy fleet to be torn to bits. Then a small ship emerged from the clouds of hellfire. A tiny corvette armed with first generation lasers that limped towards the Tempest fleet. The mothership calculated new weapon trajectories, it was displeased that it would need to spend more energy on this. Then, suddenly, a rag-tag fleet of ships, a mix of corvettes and destroyers with some cruisers and a single battleship emerged from the radio-active dust.
These ships were flown by pilots from at least 22 different races, all refugees from the destruction that the Grey Tempest had wrought. Born in different parts of the galaxy they were united in the hardship they had faced. All had fled from worlds ravaged by nanite fire and all had everything taken away from them.
Today was their one chance to fight back. The Nanite swarm once more fired it's powerfull weapons. Again in response point defense fire lit up the void. A few ships were struck by terrible beams of concentrated energy, but the rest continued. The tiny but fast corvettes were the first to reach the agressors, and their weapons started tearing up the nanite hulls. When the cruisers joined the battle the enemy ships were suprisingly quick to fail. The mothership lasted the longest, but it too went down in a massive explosion.
This one battle might have changed the fate of the galaxy. The allied fleet had not only won against the odds, but it had done so with minimal losses. Only 3 destroyers, 7 corvettes and one cruiser were missing. 55 ships remained. The allied fleet of refugees now had a fighting chance against the other two fleets that were fast approaching. That though, would only be the start.
Post by: Mephansteras on May 19, 2021, 06:32:57 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on May 20, 2021, 10:41:43 am
Post by: Bralbaard on May 21, 2021, 02:21:03 am
It seems my empire is facing other problems now as well. I have only played a few months since the victory and the two other fleets have not arrived yet, but the latest game patch is having some big effects.
I was already facing unemployment issues with the large numbers of refugees I was receiving each year before the patch but the patch has made this ten times worse. Some planets have over a dozen of unemployed refugees.
I simply have no planets within my borders where I can put all these people and all the planets outside my borders are being turned into nanite worlds right now. The overpopulation crisis is ironic since I hear most people complain about the new version saying that they can't get enough pop growth to fill their planets. I desperately need tech to terraform non habitable worlds into habitable ones, because I do have many terraforming candidates within my borders. I will not close my borders for refugees for roleplay reasons.
Also someone has woken up a powerfull fanatic purifier race near my southern border far away from my fleets. Even more shocking, the purifiers are humans. Just what this galaxy needed.
Post by: Telgin on May 21, 2021, 09:17:29 am
Post by: Bralbaard on May 21, 2021, 03:56:51 pm
Also, the other two grey tempest fleets have been destroyed, and I can focus on other issues for a bit.
Issues such as my "loyal" subsidiary empire the Giranshu with whom I had a migration treaty. I've just found out that they have been selling my migrated citizens as slaves to a hive empire on the other side of the galaxy who are using them as a food source. I am a corporate empire so my control over subsidiary empires is apparently limited, but there are also limits to what they can get away with. Diplomatic ties have been broken, and I released the Giranshu as a "free" empire. I have also marked a day in my agenda, exactly ten years from now.
Post by: Telgin on May 21, 2021, 06:22:26 pm
Meanwhile, right now I'm struggling with the fact that I'm playing pacifists as always, but have an empire to the south that not only murdered the crew of one science ship but also won a humiliation war against me because I was 20 months too slow on FTL inhibition tech. I'm tempted to try imposing my ideology on them, but will definitely leave them to be eaten by the crisis or Gray Tempest if they threaten them later.
Post by: Paul on May 25, 2021, 10:18:01 pm
Post by: Telgin on May 25, 2021, 11:31:49 pm
Anyway, I got revenge on the evil tree people to my south that murdered my scientists and humiliated me for being too slow on FTL inhibitors. First of all, the AI still gets rebellions a lot on Captain difficulty apparently, and 3 of their planets rebelled and joined me. Free pops.
Then the Unbidden spawned 9 months into the end game in 2400 because I got tired of seeing jump drives as an option and eventually clicked it in like 2350. I was somewhat prepared since I was actually playing xenophiles this time and got in on the ridiculous research speed bonuses from a research federation very early into the game, but even so the Unbidden managed to make it to the L-cluster and start spreading through the galaxy before I could muster enough ships to stop them. Fighting them was pretty dicey for a few decades as I replaced my destroyed battleships with kinetic focused battleships and doubled down on shield harmonics and kinetics repeatables, but I was able to keep them out of my territory and distracted for the most part. Except the L-gate system I had, which is impossible to keep during a crisis because they pop in, zap even a citadel in about 3 seconds and convert it into their own station...
But that Unbidden fleet that used an L-gate to infiltrate my neighbors to the south? I just ignored that fleet for a while. I pretended that I didn't know where those refugees were coming from for a while.
The best part is that I decided to get the achievement for becoming the galactic empire, so I passed the resolutions to become the custodian, abolish its term limit and then become the galactic empire all with 100% support from the galactic community. 50 years after the Unbidden were beaten, and with no active crisis. Truly, liberty died to thunderous applause.
Post by: Telgin on June 03, 2021, 03:17:01 pm
In short, they're committing to releasing free updates on a regular schedule from a dedicated team that will be working on longstanding issues and even adding content and features to old DLC. I think the one thing I'm most looking forward to is the tradition changes where there will finally be more than 7 tradition trees available and you can pick between them. People have been asking for this forever.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 03, 2021, 07:54:25 pm
Also playing in a multiplayer game today I found out that if you have trade deals that are for more then your excess goods in storage they will automatically cancel at the end of the month, even if you have a net positive income in that good, which is pretty wacky. Hopefully that's fixed.
Edit2: Also, performance enhancements. Growth Required Scaling is a really bad bandaid patch for pops slowing the game down in the late game, I hope they come up with something better. I just play without it but the slow down is pretty rough.
Post by: E. Albright on June 03, 2021, 08:38:48 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on June 03, 2021, 09:09:28 pm
I for one am very happy to see them going back and making early species packs as fully-featured as later ones. Plants in particular playing exactly like anyone else always annoyed me.Thanks for mentioning this because it got me looking at the feature list - this looks a lot better than I expected! I play plantoids a lot but their lack of quirk was always a little disappointing. I wonder what it'll be. ...Likely something about agriculture, meh. But what if it's something like their ships getting a bonus/malus depending on a system's luminosity? I always loved that in Space Empires IV, making ships that were all-or-entirely reliant on solar power and reserve fuel.
Hopefully it even involves a few unique trait points like lithoids!
I don't have Necroids yet, but good to see them giving some much-needed love to hive minds. I could just use the mod that fleshes hive minds out a lot... or the one that adds tons more traditions... but it's good to see them putting more such stuff into the base game too.
Post by: Telgin on June 03, 2021, 09:23:05 pm
Edit2: Also, performance enhancements. Growth Required Scaling is a really bad bandaid patch for pops slowing the game down in the late game, I hope they come up with something better. I just play without it but the slow down is pretty rough.
Agreed. I'll make a quick note here though that in the last major patch they added the option to turn the growth scaling down or off, and if you do you should really take heed of their warning to also reduce the logistic growth scaling. I'm playing as long as I can to see how it pans out, but I disabled the growth penalty but not the logistic scaling, and with 10 planets my economy has utterly crashed due to consumer goods costs because my stupid bird people keep reproducing too fast. I'm running Social Welfare on them so they aren't unhappy due to it, but the consumer goods costs are killing me. Even in 2265 I haven't completely dug myself out of the hole, despite building industrial districts constantly.
This wouldn't be nearly as bad if I had other species to settle some of these 20% habitability planets, but everyone around me hates my guts, so...
Post by: Rolan7 on June 03, 2021, 11:51:12 pm
Interesting about the growth scaling. I had sorta accepted it as a decent trade off for avoiding lag in the late-game... I don't think there's any easy efficiency solution once too many pops are involved. There's a reason I was playing on small galaxies, and now I don't have to.
That said, removing the limiter is interesting because an underlying mood in Stellaris always seemed to be, well, trying to maximize pop growth in the early game then trying to find them habitation in the mid-end game. Hence all my habitat spam, which both boosted growth and accomodated it- at the cost of excessive grind. I also tended to acquire pops through being a lovely nation to immigrate to, being xenophile and egalitarian in most games. Or just conquer worlds and welcome their pops - I don't tend to play pacifist.
The obvious alternative is when one *doesn't* want a xenophilic hodge-podge of species, and is displacing noncitizen pops from conquered worlds. I think that suffered the most from this growth scaling mechanic, since one's precious ubershrooms will completely fail to populate the conquered worlds after a certain point. That's got to be frustrating, while xenophiles and particularly Nihilistic Acquisitioners do relatively fine.
Maybe I'll try another small galaxy with the growth limiting off, and see if I can handle the end-game pop levels. I'm pretty used to spamming habitats, not to mention ring worlds and ecumenopoli. And it's *waaaay* easier than it used to be, since they finally made pops migrate reasonably within one's nations. So instead of tedious reshuffling pops, I can just build the homes and let them come.
I feel like AI nations seem less concerned about living space, content to just freeze planetary growth or whatever. Which I don't mind morally, it's just such a waste in terms of preparing for the endgame. Though maybe I'm just used to establishing my nation's strength by the midgame such that nobody dares try to take my districts.
Post by: Egan_BW on June 04, 2021, 12:13:34 am
Post by: Criptfeind on June 04, 2021, 07:14:34 am
Agreed. I'll make a quick note here though that in the last major patch they added the option to turn the growth scaling down or off, and if you do you should really take heed of their warning to also reduce the logistic growth scaling. I'm playing as long as I can to see how it pans out, but I disabled the growth penalty but not the logistic scaling, and with 10 planets my economy has utterly crashed due to consumer goods costs because my stupid bird people keep reproducing too fast. I'm running Social Welfare on them so they aren't unhappy due to it, but the consumer goods costs are killing me. Even in 2265 I haven't completely dug myself out of the hole, despite building industrial districts constantly.
This wouldn't be nearly as bad if I had other species to settle some of these 20% habitability planets, but everyone around me hates my guts, so...
This is an interesting issue to have, since generally more pops equals more production, so you should have less issues with consumer goods with more pops, not more?
Do you specialize your worlds to industrial and forge worlds? I find that helps a lot with balancing of upkeep on consumer goods, although a lot of the time it's more helpful in the sense that I don't have to make more consumer goods then I need when I want more alloys, but it helps both ways, specially in the early game and makes it a bit cheaper to roll out the consumer goods boosting buildings.
Post by: Telgin on June 04, 2021, 09:51:26 am
1. I'm in a consumer goods crunch because of too many pops.
2. I build a new industrial district on an industrial world (yeah, I did specialize) to help address it.
3. I'm low on minerals now because it's surprisingly steep to pay 400-500 minerals for a district early on.
4. I'm now getting less minerals per month because the industrial district is using them.
5. I find myself having to sell minerals to buy consumer goods to cover the shortage I ran into, because I'm also short on energy for various reasons, like 10 planets building robots...
6. Now I have to scrape to build a mining district.
7. Suddenly I'm short on food or energy and repeat having to sell minerals to buy what I'm short on. Every planet has 5+ unemployed pops but I don't have minerals to build anything for them to do.
8. By now enough pops have grown that I'm short on food or consumer goods again, and the cycle repeats. If I even managed to get in the black on consumer goods to begin with.
I was doing fine up until about 2240, but around then the pop growth was just too fast to keep up and I was constantly selling things to buy consumer goods and barely treading water. It was a constant struggle to choose between building more industrial or mining districts. I settled a lot of low habitability planets, which caused my food and consumer goods costs to be ridiculous. The low habitability pop growth penalty didn't really keep this from spiraling. I'd have been much better off if I built enough mining districts to get up to 200 net minerals a month before I started doing anything else.
A few other things I did that were probably mistakes would be that I normally build gene clinics and robot assembly plants as my first two buildings on new worlds. The gene clinics are partly for RP since they kind of suck, but help cover amenities early on so it's not a terrible option. The problem here is that they consume consumer goods for little benefit, and the robot assembly plant costs a ton of minerals that would have been much better suited to building industrial districts. These problems weren't apparent for a while, by which point it was too late.
What finally got me out of the crunch was finally drawing some +% habitability techs in 2260, finally unlocking the first civilian industries upgrade + crystal plants, and completing the cybernetics project to give my pops the habitability bonus from cybernetics. I'll keep going for as long as I can, but I tried setting this for a 10x Contingency crisis and I seriously doubt I'll recover in time to defeat that.
Post by: Telgin on June 11, 2021, 10:57:38 am
Each Contingency fleet was about 850k in power, with the sterilization hubs having fleets of about 2 million power. When engaging them I tried to fight individual fleets with 4 of my own, which typically led to only a few losses on my side that I was able to easily replace. The sterilization hub fleets maybe destroyed 10-15 of my ships in those battles.
Leaving the logistic growth curve in place while removing the pop growth scaling penalty leads to absurd power creep, to the point it was so far outside of the norm I consider this game to have been more of a power trip than legitimate. Without conquering anyone, I had about 5,000 pops when the crisis spawned and about 45k monthly research output from 3 ring worlds and a dozen or so tech worlds, which gave me about 50 levels of shields, energy and kinetic weapon repeatables, with a scattering of others like 15 levels of strike craft and resource boosting repeatables. It was truly something to see 400 pops almost instantly migrate to these ring worlds as the segments were completed, as I was never able to keep up with unemployment. Even 30 habitats, needed for the rare resource production and naval capacity, filled up instantly and started contributing to the pop explosion.
Funnily enough, despite all of that I don't think I would have been confident against a 25x Contingency. If I were truly going as hard as possible to increase tech and fleet power I could have probably built 1 more ring world and a few dozen more habitats for naval capacity and rare resource production, but I was running into a hard mineral limit that would have made this either dependent on the mineral extraction repeatable or buying minerals off of the market. Really, I guess more naval capacity for more ships would have mattered more than tech at that point.
Post by: E. Albright on June 11, 2021, 11:29:00 am
Post by: Criptfeind on June 11, 2021, 11:52:01 am
I'm open to being wrong on this. I HOPE they implement a good system, but the empire sprawl mechanics have had a pretty rough history imo and this sounds like more of the same.
Post by: E. Albright on June 11, 2021, 04:22:57 pm
Post by: Telgin on June 11, 2021, 08:19:54 pm
On one hand, the current admin cap system is straightforward and kind of does what it's supposed to. It puts a tax on large empires to curb output, but with dedication it can be mitigated. I like that it's easy to understand and deal with. I also don't really care that much that it doesn't make tall competitive to wide, partly because everyone's definition of the two is different and partly because a large space empire really should just be better barring very exceptional circumstances.
But on the other hand, I think there really probably should be more difficulty in keeping a large empire cohesive, and I really like the idea that unhappy pops could matter. Right now they really don't unless everyone is unhappy. I also like the idea of unity having some long term use.
Yet, I'm not sure that mashing unity and admin cap together is really the right way forward. It makes it kind of muddy and vague what unity would mean, as if it weren't vague enough considering that traditions and ascension perks really don't seem to have anything to do with a unified population.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 11, 2021, 09:29:38 pm
Imagine if the pro-xeno faction didn't just sit there passively and whine about your treatment of aliens, but instead lobbied for better treatment by proposing reduced work hours and better living conditions for you totally-not-slave-labor camps and in exchange they offer to pay for some portion of the maintenance of said camps, or something else which gives the player an economic incentive good enough not to simply dismiss them.
Imagine if you decline it anyway and some portion of the faction breaks off, becoming a radicalized terrorist cell that takes root on one of your worlds and begins attacking industries, stealing supplies, etc. Eventually growing large enough to lead a rebellion across multiple planets at the same time, fracturing your empire and forming a new nation with different ideals which you must now attack.
Big empires should have lots of wide-ranging ideas about what is right and wrong, and lots of very vocal people willing to follow calls to action. Rebellions are common in large empires in games like EU4 and CK3, why not in Stellaris? Invest in stability and unity of thought or see your populace rise up.
Post by: E. Albright on June 11, 2021, 10:18:10 pm
It makes it kind of muddy and vague what unity would mean, as if it weren't vague enough considering that traditions and ascension perks really don't seem to have anything to do with a unified population.
This bothers me too. To riff on forsaken's comment as well, it bothers me that e.g. factions give Influence - the most coherent attempt at a definition I've heard of Unity is "like Influence, but internal", but that doesn't even work since Influence affects a fair number of things that seem more like internal matters. Right now, both Influence and Unity feel more like Yet Another Currency rather than any sort of resource - and together they're the gamiest parts of the game. Tacking yet further functions onto vague resources that both function more like timers than like something you collect and expend makes the game feel less grounded and real. That feels a bit weird to say about a fairly-soft scifi game, but there it is...
Post by: Shooer on June 11, 2021, 11:05:02 pm
I'd love to see a DLC dive into vassalage, sectors, internal politics and such. Having to bribe your sector governors to be better at their job and to not accept bribes from foreign powers to defect. Add subversion of sectors using the espionage that slowly makes them want to defect, possible join you but probably go indy. Automation in forcing migration in pops with ethoses against your government to specific (prison)planets or foreign empires/vassals. Expand criminal corps and pirates. Maybe anyone not pacifist (maybe xenophobic) can provide ships and tech to pirates to make them galactically stronger, criminal corps can get funds from pirates that are alive.
Post by: Nelia Hawk on June 12, 2021, 07:03:08 am
and they all do things and work against or with eachother and have their own little fleets.
and maybe if the "western outer rim faction" is too angry, they can "rebel" and fight the main empire and split up into a seperate empire.
maybe it could even work like crusader kings does the "liege terretory" (whatever it was called)... the whole empire spraw and admin cap change could also work into this then.
you govern 3-10 planets your self (upgradable with various means or civics) and all other planets are automatically sectors with a factions leading them. (you can still build stuff there but factions also have building slots where they can build faction buildings... Mining outposts, research bases, Pirate havens, markets, whatever fits to the faction)
maybe the "western outer rim faction" is made up of 40% prospectors, 20% xenophobes, 30% Pirates, 10% Scientists and depending on what faction has the highest amout tha tone "leads" that sector.
maybe a faction lead by prospectors can send out their own mining civillian ships (like distant world does the automatic civillians that you cant control) and they fly to places with resources to mine for a month and then fly back to one of their planets and the minerals get added to their stockpile (and the player gets a little income from it too maybe?)
or a pirate/outlaws lead faction could send little smuggling ships into nearby neighbor empire space and steal resources or increase crime from smugling... or capture the other empires civillian ships (i.e. the prospectors)
science ones could have ships flying to research outposts and wormholes and neutron stars, nebulars, etc and "study" them for a month, then fly back and they add the research they gained to a pool where they research their own technology... and if they are in good standing with you they might share the tech with you.
and all the factions have their own patrol/military ships/fleets additionally to the civillians where they try to take over other factions planets or defend from pirates.
well all these civillian ships are probably a performance problem for this game. but could be cool to have more things flying around space than basically just military fleets.
no idea how a "internal politics DLC" could work with "owning it and not owning it".... maybe not owning it limits you to the vanilla 6 (8?) civic factions... but with the dlc you get all sorts of additional factions and faction buildings and faction politics screens (bit like federations politics maybe?)
also what do hiveminds and machine empires get then...
Post by: Criptfeind on June 12, 2021, 09:04:03 am
Post by: Telgin on June 12, 2021, 11:30:02 am
Quote
maybe it could even work like crusader kings does the "liege terretory" (whatever it was called)... the whole empire spraw and admin cap change could also work into this then.
you govern 3-10 planets your self (upgradable with various means or civics) and all other planets are automatically sectors with a factions leading them. (you can still build stuff there but factions also have building slots where they can build faction buildings... Mining outposts, research bases, Pirate havens, markets, whatever fits to the faction)
It would be pretty funny if we did end up coming full circle back to the notion of the core sector with a planet limit that had to be put in other sectors.
In any case, I agree that the game really needs some depth or flavor to internal politics with sectors. They're little more than a leader upkeep tax right now by encouraging you to pay for a leader to govern them, even the governors do give small bonuses to them.
The only thing about this is that I'd be surprised if they ever gave sectors any direct personality, since the game director has said multiple times that he thought leaders in the game were pretty good and didn't need anything else, and if leaders don't have personalities then I can't see sectors having them. Rogue governors would be the obvious place to start with things like internal division, but at this point at most I'd expect them to add a "Disgruntled" negative trait that governors could get randomly that did something like apply a stability penalty to their sector.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on June 12, 2021, 12:25:17 pm
Post by: ventuswings on June 14, 2021, 07:48:29 pm
I always play with x0 gates (which disables Gateway tech since having one is requirement) because I appreciate how difficult it is to cover entire territory with fleets, especially with player's tendency to clump entire fleets together. It makes sense as well; galaxy-spanning nation would have difficulty managing its large territory with fleets taking years to travel, making them more vulnerable to multi-front attacks and rebellions from backwaters. Instead one can simply spam Gateway and eliminate distance aspect of gameplay entirely, which benefits wide empiree much more than tall compact ones.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on June 14, 2021, 07:54:46 pm
I think habitats are broken too, tbh
Post by: Rolan7 on June 14, 2021, 08:11:08 pm
I think it's Gateway that trivializes one of strongest drawbacks of wide Empire - its size itself.Gateways certainly change the game fundamentally once you get them, and I tend to deploy them... generously. That led to some mild friction (more like confusion) when I was playing multiplayer with some friends for a few weeks. I was gating' up my entire megacorp, naturally, to *eliminate* piracy... naturally building one in my capital, and my megashipyard, and all sorts of strategic places. Meaning that every war was mostly on just one front - the entire gateway network. Any incursion into any gateway system was both extremely dangerous and extremely easy to react to.
I always play with x0 gates because I appreciate how difficult it is to cover entire territory with fleets, especially with player's tendency to clump entire fleets together. It makes sense as well; galaxy-spanning nation would have difficulty managing its large territory with fleets taking years to travel, making them more vulnerable to multi-front attacks and rebellions from backwaters. Instead one can simply spam Gateway and eliminate distance aspect of gameplay entirely, which benefits wide empiree much more than tall compact ones.
That worked out pretty well, but it was a surprising doctrine to my fellow players who had to adjust a bit.
Maybe that's part of why I've always been confounded at the idea of the crisis lasting more than a decade or two. It's always seemed so all-or-nothing: They easily reach a gateway and then the matter is settled in a few years. Either I destroy them or they destroy me, there's no detente.
Anyway, I think gateways are pretty good *because* they change the game so much. They're one of the few meaningful ways that the lategame is different from the midgame. The only "megastructure" that even comes close to their importance are habitats, the Coordination Center, and sometimes the Interstellar Assembly.
Post by: Telgin on June 14, 2021, 09:34:53 pm
I've always wondered if it was better or worse to build the gateways in the border systems with bastions. If I lose that system then I lose the gateway, but if I lose a bastion system I'm probably losing whatever is behind it anyway I guess. Doing it a jump away lets me share a gateway to several bastions sometimes though.
I do like that gateways change things up in the late game and generally make the game more convenient. Jump drives help a lot too, but are more situational. However, gateways do also mitigate the biggest drawback to big empires, as ventuswings pointed out. I have a bit of a love-hate relationship with that. I like that fleet positioning matters... until it inconveniences me, at which point I hate the fact that it takes so long to move ships around.
Regarding the crisis: this is one reason I almost prefer to not have L-gates in my empire. If the crisis ever reaches the L-cluster you just cannot keep these systems. They'll pop in, zap the station in 2 seconds, convert it to one of theirs, and pop out. Well, this and the fact that the AI will unleash the Grey Tempest when nobody in the galaxy has even 10k fleet power. I've had crises last 100+ years, but those were cases where I had a hard time reaching them due to idiot neighbors who wouldn't open up borders to me so I could fight the crisis. I've never, ever, seen one of the mechanics trigger where the crisis has spiraled out of control and other factions show up to help / make it worse.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on June 15, 2021, 02:50:50 pm
My home system
My shipyard system(s)
My chokepoint systems, including vassals. If I intend to vassalize/tributary I always demand a convenient system to build a gateway in. Gets me around the galaxy faster and also good luck to those fringe provinces if you want to break free, I can get my fleet there whenever I please.
Post by: Duuvian on June 17, 2021, 11:19:40 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on June 17, 2021, 11:39:38 pm
I do that plus for trade hubs. No more pirate patrols once you have gateways.Very much the same.
I sometimes wonder whether I'm actually playing optimally, or whether I'm only playing to *feel* like I'm playing optimally. I find strategy like playing tall Megacorp on small galaxy, avoiding piracy whenever possible and then doing whatever I want once I have gateway tech - and I feel like I'm beating the system.
Then I read about people facing up against 25X crises and realize... oh... I'm just participating in a power fantasy.
And it feels great! I'll load up another game on Captain - which I thought was fair, but benefits the AI - and suffer a few scrapes before making the galaxy my federated, xenophilic oyster <3
And that is why I'm fine with the AI being intentionally unoptimized. Particularly when it means the AI makes more "emotional" choices according to their empire type.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 18, 2021, 07:34:06 am
Post by: Damiac on June 18, 2021, 07:49:31 am
I don't think that the AI is intentionally unoptimized. It's understandably quite difficult to make an AI that both good and feels good to play against. But there's a pretty vast gulf between where stellaris AI is now and where frankly it reasonably easily could be. You can forgive and understand a not perfect AI, but stellaris AI is I think the worst AI I've ever seen in a game where the AI is at least nominally working, and some patches you don't need that last caveat.It's hard making an AI for a game where the rules are known and unchanging. It's impossible to make a good ai for a game that is still good after you change all the rules.
Stellaris has been at least 3 different games over the time I played it, original 3 FTL modes, that weird second version with the strange war exhaustion stuff, and then the version after that where outposts completely changed, not to mention all the DLC stuff.
I understand it's changed more since then, which only makes the problem worse. And why spend money making the AI better, which you have to give in a free update, when instead you can make a new DLC and sell it.
Post by: Telgin on June 18, 2021, 09:38:15 am
Then I read about people facing up against 25X crises and realize... oh... I'm just participating in a power fantasy.
And it feels great! I'll load up another game on Captain - which I thought was fair, but benefits the AI - and suffer a few scrapes before making the galaxy my federated, xenophilic oyster <3
This is largely what Stellaris has become to me over the years, where I just like to see how big I can make my numbers go, but I think I more or less hit my peak in my last game by beating the 10x Contingency. That required some very atypical game settings, and trying to push it to a 25x Contingency just doesn't sound fun.
I'm debating in my next game if I should dial it back down to a 1x crisis and see what happens if I don't fight it. Two things I've considered:
1. See if the galaxy can deal with the crisis without me for a change. An awakened empire might be able to, but I doubt any normal empire could in this patch.
2. Build up enough defensive stations that I'm immune to the crisis, and let the crisis have fun. Maybe I'd get to see the extra factions that pop up when the crisis spirals out of control for a change.
Post by: MorleyDev on June 18, 2021, 10:19:44 am
I think part of the issue and reason they can't just take what the mod does or contract out the mod developers is that mods like Starnet AI balance the AI so that it's competitive with humans who have played the game before even on the lowest difficulty that doesn't give the player buffs (player buffs risk teaching players bad habits, hence restricting them to the very lowest difficulty).
From a game design balance pov, the perspective they're taken for AI in Stellaris is balancing it to keep the game appealing to new players, so they'd ideally want an AI that on lower settings a new player can survive against, whilst is competitive on higher difficulties with more experienced players. Otherwise you risk players getting steamrolled when they don't know what they're doing and giving up rather than learning (think most people who try Dwarf Fortress).
The 'best' way to do that is completely AI behaviours for different difficulties, like Starnet-style being used for higher ones and 'current vanilla' for lower ones. That's a testing and maintenance nightmare though, which is why most games go the buff/debuff route for AI difficulties.
So it's definitely more complex than just "make AI good", because you can't make AI too good to always beat new players whilst also making AI good enough against older players. Hence the hack of giving a crapper AI buffs games use.
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As for Planet/Sector AI, something they've expressed interest in before to reduce micromanagement is to let you create a 'template' for the different planet types it can follow. So you tell it what a Agri-World should look like, and it'll build each one up to look like that. The issue is just getting the time to design and test that, since it'd to be a UI/System able to take into account all the different sizes and modifiers a planet could have in some way.
Post by: Nelia Hawk on June 18, 2021, 10:48:33 am
also reminds me of "AI war 2" with the the ai getting more and more difficult and has more things and tactics with higher difficulty nmbers.
Post by: Telgin on June 18, 2021, 11:12:39 am
I don't think it's the whole picture though, or necessarily even a large part of it. Someone found that the Ai is currently explicitly configured to not build research labs for the first 50 years, for example. That was probably introduced as a bandaid to improve economic stability until they could figure out why the AI was tanking consumer goods or mineral production or something. It somewhat fixes that issue and does seem to have helped with the stability spirals of 3.0.1, but at the cost of making the AI utterly non-competitive past the first 50 years.
I agree that it would be really nice if the AI was smart enough to use advanced tactics, but held those in reserve at lower difficulties. Maybe on lower difficulties it does dumb things like suicide small fleets against bigger ones, but on higher difficulties it knows to stack them up, or to use special station builds in systems that nullify shields, or camp hyperlanes exits with corvette swarms to counter battleships, etc.
It would be great if they could make it so it could compete without cheating, though I know that's a lofty goal they probably will never achieve. Funnily enough, I played Stellaris on baby mode the first few times because I was used to games like this cheating like crazy even on lower difficulties, and back in 2.0 it was able to mostly keep up with me on my first couple of games even then. I wonder if new players have that experience in 3.0, or if the AI has gotten objectively worse since then.
Post by: Damiac on June 18, 2021, 12:20:22 pm
It would be great if they could make it so it could compete without cheating, though I know that's a lofty goal they probably will never achieve.The only problem is they literally said the AI didn't cheat and that it was just a well programmed AI. Well not the only problem, but that's a big one.
Post by: MorleyDev on June 18, 2021, 07:53:27 pm
I think the Stellaris AI in that sense doesn't cheat. It is making decisions with the same kinds of information a player has about other empires etc (Not sure if that changed post-espionage, or if they also need intel to know relative fleet strength without Intel), and is pulling from a deck of science in the same way.
But it is 'cheating' in the sense that difficulty levels give it fixed percentage 'buffs' to production the player doesn't have on higher difficulties.
---
The talk about Admin Cap changes is interesting. They want to make it a resource to be managed, rather than a fixed penalty/limit you work around, so that it can:
a) Be technically simpler to work with (since it can use the same resource system as everything else).
b) Be usable by future features.
Admin cap as-is is currently a bit of a dead end, nowhere to go with it for future stuff, just adds extra technical burden to consider. Making it a resource empires consume as they grow would make it much easier for other systems to access.
They've previously spoken about wanting to add Institutions and Religion. I could see a system where Institutions use whatever resource replaces admin cap to produce resources and buffs, whilst unity gets used by religion. Materialists would get powerful institutions but not have access to or much weaker religion, whilst Spiritualists institutions are weaker but they get more from Religion.
Post by: Telgin on June 18, 2021, 10:47:21 pm
Yeah, the AI isn't cheating like, say, Star Trek: Birth of the Federation, where I'm pretty sure the AI gets free ships and such. Either that or it gets massive economic boosts even at low difficulties.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 19, 2021, 06:13:39 am
Post by: MorleyDev on June 20, 2021, 07:23:45 pm
An example is how if you compare this to a game like Warcraft where the AI can in theory always attack the player or be attacked, the rules of Stellaris are such that they can only declare war on known factions. So unlike other games, it's not difficult for Stellaris' AI to not need to cheat in that regard since it has no need to look at that information about any undiscovered factions in the first place.
And most of the buff-based cheats beyond the blanked AI difficulty buff are reserved for Awakened Empires et al, their special government types are purposefully unbalanced even by Stellaris' deliberately unbalanced standards.
* Post-espionage they may be able to see your full borders after discovering you if they didn't update that part of the AI to handle, but that AI will send science ships to scan your planets before establishing contact suggest they don't consider your borders or at least don't consider them with regards to science ship order issuing. And tbh with updating the AI to handle not seeing your full borders post discovery, I don't think that knowledge would noticably alter any visible AI behaviour (since a ship going near your borders would still reveal them).
Post by: Rolan7 on June 21, 2021, 01:43:31 am
There's a quality-of-life thing that I think would really help the Stellaris. At least as an option.
Ever since the market was introduced we've had the option to buy a pittance of a resource, manually every month, to remove the debuff. On the one hand that hassles the player into balancing their economy better. On the other hand, that could be fully automated.
I really enjoyed an old game, Kohan Immortal Sovereigns, a RTS where the economy worked that way. IIRC you were welcome to go into deficit in any resource, as long as you had the gold to cover it. And running a surplus would similarly earn you gold. Streamlined.
That's not necessarily a better system in Stellaris since player-attention is an actual resource in multiplayer. Perhaps running an imbalanced economy *should* be a distraction. But I think it's more elegant if it's just handled, rather than threatening a debuff which is (intended to be) so severe that no one would ever not just buy a little more of the resource in question.
And in practice you get wonky runs which write off a certain resource, not even bothering to buy it every month, going HAM on having a massive deficit of it. Tanking the penalty.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 21, 2021, 06:55:38 am
Modern Stellaris has the benefit that, unlike other games, the things a faction has available to do don't really require them to pay attention to things outside of their fog of war anyway*, and the 'rules' it has to follow for decisions like Technology are 'responsive' to a deck draw or even roll rather than 'active' and so can be driven by the possible decisions being given 'weight' and then selected using that weight with some RNG. So the design is well suited for not needing to 'all-seeing cheat' by giving the AI different rules to play by than the player.
* Post-espionage they may be able to see your full borders after discovering you if they didn't update that part of the AI to handle, but that AI will send science ships to scan your planets before establishing contact suggest they don't consider your borders or at least don't consider them with regards to science ship order issuing. And tbh with updating the AI to handle not seeing your full borders post discovery, I don't think that knowledge would noticably alter any visible AI behaviour (since a ship going near your borders would still reveal them).
Well, there's the idea of watching fleet movements, trying to face enemy strength with strength and split up when not needed. Which would be the equivalent of the cheating that paradox AI uses in other games. However to the best of my recollection the AI doesn't do that even when your fleets are not in the fog of war, it's not smart enough for tactical fleet movements, so I suppose by that standard you're right and it doesn't really have a reason to cheat in such a manner. If the AI had some sorta tactical brain other then "Roll forward into nearest enemy system, repeat" the question of it seeing though fog of war would probably be more relevant. Another possible area where it would matter is actually finding your systems to conquer, although since the AI doesn't seem to really assign any particular weight to conquering important systems during a war I think that it's ability to find your systems would be pretty much only relevant in an early war where you have a discontinuous empire, but too be honest that's a bit of a contrived circumstance that I've never actually seen in game, so I'm not sure if they would cheat in such a situation... although I'd be very surprised if they didn't cheat during such a time if they had the brains to actually have an objective to cheat towards.
All that, plus the in-game personality of the AIs ("Hegemonic Imperialists", "Honorbound Warriors", etc) is correctly more important than optimally playing the game. If I wanted to play against optimal opponents then I'd play against humans, and not my friends who enjoy fun, and also I'd play a game more suited for such tactical play.
This feels like a bit of a non sequitur tbh but I like it when the AI roleplay as well. In a way though it sorta makes the AI problems even worse? Since they are very immersion breaking to me... Does that make sense? The technocrats are too dumb to be able to build research? The Hegemonic Imperialists are unable to manage their economy so they can't actually build relevant fleets? The diplomatic roleplaying is basic but serviceable I'd certainly say, and it adds a lot of charm to the game, but with their terrible economic management all the AI empires sorta take on a grey blobby bleh flavor outside the very early game to me if that makes sense? If they AI can't stay relevant in the game, there's no reason to care about their personality and if they don't have a important impact on the galaxy the roleplaying just really doesn't matter. And I WANT the roleplaying to matter. I want their personalities to matter outside of some opinion modifiers in the first couple of decades of the game. But they just don't with how bad the AI is. Mods help a lot with this, but if the base game was better I think that it could go further then mods are able to in making their personalities relevant.
I think also to a certain degree that stellaris is a bit too 4Xish for too much roleplaying and I wish it had a more in depth simulation for more rp room, but that's a whole other topic :P
There's a quality-of-life thing that I think would really help the Stellaris. At least as an option.
Ever since the market was introduced we've had the option to buy a pittance of a resource, manually every month, to remove the debuff. On the one hand that hassles the player into balancing their economy better. On the other hand, that could be fully automated.
I really enjoyed an old game, Kohan Immortal Sovereigns, a RTS where the economy worked that way. IIRC you were welcome to go into deficit in any resource, as long as you had the gold to cover it. And running a surplus would similarly earn you gold. Streamlined.
That's not necessarily a better system in Stellaris since player-attention is an actual resource in multiplayer. Perhaps running an imbalanced economy *should* be a distraction. But I think it's more elegant if it's just handled, rather than threatening a debuff which is (intended to be) so severe that no one would ever not just buy a little more of the resource in question.
And in practice you get wonky runs which write off a certain resource, not even bothering to buy it every month, going HAM on having a massive deficit of it. Tanking the penalty.
I'm not sure I totally understand the idea here for what the quality of life thing is. A system that automatically buys enough resources on the market to pay for upkeep? If so, broadly speaking that's already possible with monthly trades.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 21, 2021, 08:29:53 am
I'm not sure I totally understand the idea here for what the quality of life thing is. A system that automatically buys enough resources on the market to pay for upkeep? If so, broadly speaking that's already possible with monthly trades.
It's possible but fiddly. You have to constantly go readjust your trades to match your upkeep. The idea would be that any shortfall would be covered with credits automatically without player action, possibly with a warning of some sort to inform you.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 21, 2021, 09:51:02 am
Post by: Damiac on June 21, 2021, 02:17:26 pm
But the cheating I was talking about was of the extra resources out of thin air variety, which was explicitly claimed not to be in the game, but was shown to be.
There is an open source space4X called FreeOrion or something similar. The devs say it's inspired by master of orion. https://freeorion.en.softonic.com/
They set that game up so that the AI uses the same client as a player, meaning the AI truly does only get the same limited information a player would. They have had a hell of a tough time making an AI that can play the game decently under those circumstances. It's hard enough to get an AI to do the right thing with complete information.
I followed that project at the beginning of its life, and the challenges that go into making an AI that doesn't completely suck are pretty incredible.
Post by: Vivalas on July 01, 2021, 11:33:45 am
All in all good fun. The galaxy ended up in a wierd WW1-esque double entente condition where almost every empire was part of one of two Federations, and then there was a third federation that started from the common ground background.
Post by: Telgin on July 01, 2021, 03:08:18 pm
Having said that, I still prefer to play isolationists in general and dislike joining federations even when not playing isolationists because there are frustrating drawbacks. For one, like anything in the game there are visible bugs, like how the AI will constantly propose open migration treaties, then once that's approved the AI will immediately propose forbidding open migration treaties, rinse and repeat forever. Then there is the fact that the federation fleet will end up full of mixed ships instead of the ideal monofleets, which isn't really a bug so much as the AI just not knowing the current meta. However, it does mean that the fleet manager ends up with two million single corvette fleets because of whatever it is that causes that to happen. I think it happens when reinforcements have no path to the destination fleet, but that seems inconsistent.
The most frustrating thing to me though is that you can get stuck in endless wars if you're not the war leader. The AI will never try to end wars early, and you have no way to suggest that it do so, so if you're not leading a war you don't care about, you have to either ignore it or go finish it yourself by most likely completely conquering your enemy. Extra annoying because you can even hover over the white peace option and see that every last member of your federation would support it, but you just can't propose it if you're not the war leader.
Having said all of that, I do always join the League during the War in Heaven if it triggers for RP reasons, because it can give very big bonuses to deal with the crisis when it spawns, and because you have to destroy the awakened empires anyway if you want to get the victory screen, so the annoying war issues aren't such a problem.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 22, 2021, 03:06:00 am
I also really enjoy a little game at the start of every round, where my two friends and I do our best to describe where we are. First off, we always start as neighbors - I just realized that's really weird, actually, if we're supposed to be potential antagonists. Did the game notice that we always collaborate? I'm not sure our early starts were always so close, but it's hard to be sure... Anyway, we enjoy describing our location using the galactic landmarks.
It's fun in the "blind men describing an elephant" way, even with practice. "South of the two blackholes", "A line between them, eastward, the trinary south of the binary" "Wait which arm are you in, inner or outter?" etc.
Anyway. I don't have any idea what to do with this economy and situation:
Spoiler: Image (click to show/hide)
Of course, I am fanatic xenophile for more trade value... also spiritualist. With the prosperity gospel, natch, since we're all playing spiritualist psionic lithovores. It's working extremely well.
I'm Custodian now too, which is pretty sweet since I don't own Nemesis.
Real talk, it's kinda nice that even our enemies have supported me becoming a strong Custodian and building up the Galactic fleet. I am Defender of The Galaxy, as always, and I am fanatic xenophile, and maybe the most important thing is that I have no interest in conquering territory. No militarist, no xenophobia (unlike the rest of my federation). Me, I have a pure interest in keeping the galaxy safe... (and magicly profitable).
The Xenophile FE woke right before we had to call it a night. I take it as a point of pride that they looked around, with their mega-doomstacks, and decided the galaxy was in good hands. One of my friends had been wanting to bully them, the other had been a hard nay, and I had pointed out the
Edit:
My original point for all this was another "what the heck does one even do with this much resources? How would one prepare for a 25X Crisis?
It's a weird "blind spot". I have more resources than I can give away, and yet I could get curbstomped. As a clue, I hate to exceed the fleet limit. But even spamming citadel-anchorages in every system, would I have the power to stop a 25x? Can I trust the AI empires to even slow that shit down?
Post by: Mephansteras on July 22, 2021, 12:48:52 pm
Post by: Telgin on July 22, 2021, 06:31:42 pm
My original point for all this was another "what the heck does one even do with this much resources? How would one prepare for a 25X Crisis?
It's a weird "blind spot". I have more resources than I can give away, and yet I could get curbstomped. As a clue, I hate to exceed the fleet limit. But even spamming citadel-anchorages in every system, would I have the power to stop a 25x? Can I trust the AI empires to even slow that shit down?
Nope, you can't trust the AI to slow a 25x crisis down at all, at least in vanilla. In my experience the AI more or less becomes incapable of helping or defending themselves past 1x. Worse, the changed behavior of the current version means that some crises like the Contingency will bee-line the strongest empire in the game, so you can't even count on the AI slowing it down as just a speed bump.
Whether you could build up enough to handle a 25x crisis will depend on some things, like what your current tech level is, but I'm doubtful unless you've got a lot of players helping you. I've soloed a 10x Contingency as my personal best, but that took me building up to it for most of the game. I ended up fighting that with about 40 levels of repeatables in relevant tech and about 2k of fleet capacity used, which required me to spam anchorages, build maybe a dozen dedicated habitats for soldiers and run the unity ambition for it just to keep the fleet upkeep manageable. My fleet composition wasn't optimal for the Contingency, which is to use arc emitters / cloud lightning / disrupters, so you could do better with an optimal build. I think I was using 10 dedicated energy weapon XL+L battleships, 10 kinetic equivalents and 6 or 7 carrier dedicated battleships, all focused on maximizing shields to counter Contingency weapons. I ended up with 8 fleets like that, each with about 500k power. That plus Defender of the Galaxy and the relevant combat edicts let me consistently take on Contingency fleets with 2 of mine each and not take serious losses.
If you left the crisis at random you're going to get the Unbidden instead because you or another player has probably researched jump drives. That would be easier, but in the current version of the game I've found that even they are quite hard on 10x if you're not gearing hard for the crisis fight and optimizing your build due to the decrease in pop counts. On 25x it's going to be extremely hard. Worst case scenario would be 25x Contingency with fleets of 2.5 million roaming the galaxy and I think 8 million defending hub systems.
If you and your friends can scrape up enough fleet power to deal with that you're doing pretty well. Maybe it's easier with MP than I realize since I play single player exclusively, but coordinating enough ships to win battles is going to be difficult. You also run a significant risk of the crisis blowing away your massive combined galactic armada, and if you lose it all then you'll be screwed as they take systems. I've lost a couple of games that way trying to get to being able to solo 10x on my own.
I've seen videos of people soloing 25x but I don't think I want to try that hard.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 23, 2021, 01:41:16 am
It's so strange. I have more resources than I know what to do with, such that I'm desperately using the market (with automatic trades, of course, though I'm slow to update them as we play on fast). So my question is:
How does one use a resource glut to prepare for the crisis?
The weird thing is that I probably know, vaguely. One makes more research worlds to utilize the CG into actionable tech. One builds as many dedicated anchorage starbases as possible, and forge-worlds to give the resources- not just for building, but for replacing, the theoretical mega-navy.
I guess it's hard to think about such things until one's had some time. I built a megacorp around mineral extraction and alloy production, and here I whine about having too much minerals and alloys. I give them to my ally players and to
I consider that I have to abandon my concept in order to win-
And then (in every previous game) we smash the Crisis because...
It isn't scaled. Why isn't the crisis scaled to how well the galaxy is prepared? As an option, obviously. I have never truly experienced the crisis because it has only ever been a curbstomp - on me or by me. An option to let the endgame match the readiness of the galaxy would be nice.
Edit: also like the main thing is that I hate running up against resource caps and I wonder how to utilize them. Research is the correct answer, but ship-building only goes so far.
Post by: Telgin on July 23, 2021, 06:32:50 pm
I honestly don't know what to do with massive resource surpluses either. I tend to just ignore them, except for alloys. Usually I can keep spending alloys as fast as I make them, either with battleship fleets or with Yet Another Ringworld or Yet Another Habitat. That tends to get a bit boring eventually though, so I end up capped on alloys too somewhere in the late game.
It's a bit unfortunate that the economy can be looked at from the perspective of just alloys. You can try to sell other surpluses to buy more, but the price explodes so fast that's not usually very helpful. The other resources largely don't matter after a certain point, so you don't trade for them either. I guess some players probably do set up automatic monthly trades for rare resources instead of producing them internally, at which point energy begins to matter, but I try to produce everything I need rather than rely on trade, and usually end up getting near my energy production in upkeep from ships even with a Dyson sphere, at least when they're away from my stations.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 06, 2021, 04:25:04 am
Sounds fine to me. Maybe doesn't do too too much, but at least has a bit of interesting stuff. I think the highlight is Catalytic Processing. I think it's a, I would say, medium issue with the game that there's essentially no incentives to ever build your economic differently, makes the game extremely cookie cutter. And having played with mods before that replace mineral and alloy expenditure with food it does at least briefly revitalize the game to make different choices.
Phototropic feels a bit weak and a bit boring tbh, Radiotrophic may or may not be strong but at least it sorta looks fun. Budding is fun I guess. Idyllic Bloom seems very expensive for what it does. Like, that's a shit ton of gas and quite a bit of energy, but seems sorta fun too.
I do hope that whatever patch this comes in comes with a buff to Agrarian Idyll so the Idyll+Catalytic processing combo works out, it's a fun and obvious fantasy but I sorta feel like right now Agrarian Idyll is made a bit less fun by the lack of building slots since the change to how they get unlocked. Either way I'll probably try building such an empire at some point, although tbh I suspect it'll be less fun and different then the mod empires I've already played with mods to allow food based stuff. But it's good to have this sorta thing in the base game anyway.
Post by: Telgin on August 06, 2021, 08:16:44 am
Post by: Dunamisdeos on August 09, 2021, 07:04:20 pm
Post by: Telgin on August 09, 2021, 08:37:16 pm
You can also seriously game the victory score system by forking off vassals and forming a federation with them, since tech can count a ton for points and it greatly increases the value of your federation.
Post by: Dunamisdeos on August 09, 2021, 09:03:31 pm
Hopefully they become stronk. The other two were remnants of a dangerous civ I had to balkanize to survive early wars with, but later absorbed. They've since become xenophile egalitarians, somehow.
Post by: Telgin on August 09, 2021, 09:28:58 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 09, 2021, 09:50:46 pm
Post by: Telgin on August 09, 2021, 11:17:44 pm
I always try to offload conquered AI systems as vassals ASAP, but even when managed by the AI I don't remember seeing them rebel. To be fair, the last time I did that was several versions ago and before the big rebellion issues with the AI.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 13, 2021, 08:27:26 am
First thought is that going from 7 locked in traditions to 11 to choose from, most additions of which are basically splitting old traditions that were a bit scattered in focus into two more focused trees is... disappointing. The mods I play with have something like 50 traditions to choose from any maybe I wasn't expecting that many I was hoping for a bit more then what we're getting. And most importantly I feel like traditions have always sucked because instead of being a way to differentiate your empire from others and specialize a bit, they were just a set of bonuses that everyone always gets the same of every time, and now instead of fulfilling their potential to add difference to stellaris they are going to be a set of bonuses that everyone mostly gets the same of every time with a few small differences.
As for the changes themselves...
Dominations new finisher is cool, however right now I think there's an issue with ruler production bonuses in the game, most rulers don't produce purely resources that are multiplied by bonuses to job production, the unity they make is and I think research as well. But I think (not totally sure) Amenities Trade Value and Stability added by rulers is added as basically some sort of planetary modifier that doesn't actually work with Ruler pop resource output increases, although currently the only one in game that comes to mind is Shadow Council, making the civic sad. I hope that's fixed or something before this change goes into effect otherwise I'll just become more sad that ruler focused strategies don't really work. (Although that's more of a mod thing since there's pretty limited ways to get more ruler jobs and ruler production increases in the base game.)
Taking the trade out of diplomacy and the starbase stuff out of supremacy seems okay. Specially the trade in diplomacy seemed like it should be 2 trees. Diplomacy unity gains seem like they could be a lot. I think aliens are typically pretty happy to at least make an embassy pact with pretty much anyone. It's a lot of busy work though to actually go and ask everyone.
Removing the merchant from Prosperity for stability... I mean, I guess it's alright since it can take a long time to get planets to that level of population and it kinda sucks for the capstone to do almost nothing. But merchants were more interesting then stability I think. I also do sorta think that this is balancing for the slapdash population lag fix via population reduction they did, which is a bit of a shame since that fix sorta sucks and now balancing around it is going to make the game even worse.
Moving trade value exchanging to it's own tree is going to be a very substantial change to the game, I don't hate the idea though and am interested to see how it works out. The trade tree in general seems like it might be pretty strong if you have a lot of trade focus stuff going on, which is cool since that's always felt like a weak thing to do, well have to see how this tree changes things.
In unyielding Resistance is Frugal is cool and makes me want to try a citizen service build with fleet capacity from soldiers, a bit of a nonbo with the rest of the tree giving you tons of starbases I guess... Also tbh I feel like buffing starbases and weapon platforms is a bit... Who cares? Do they ever actually matter in a war outside of extremely early game ones? I feel like it's sorta rare that they do, and so all the buffs to them in this tree feel a bit wasted. I don't know, other then resistance is frugal I feel this tree is pretty lame and probably always one of the 4 you cut out.
Subterfuge tree... Cool, I've never found espionage actually worth doing, and... This tree doesn't seem like it'll make it worth it, and does the AI even do it? I don't think I recall ever having the AI do anything to me, maybe some really minor things I forgot? Half this tree is a buff to something not worth doing and the other half is defense against something that never happens... So, also seems like a very easy cut. I guess more starbases is cool, but I think it might be hard to justify an entire tree just for 4 more... Although I can see it being worth specifically in like more mid game wars.
Ultimately... Not impressed. Trade tree is cool most other tree changes seem lame, on the whole I just feel like this isn't enough "stuff" to make it meaningful. Although at least the DLC trees seem to suck, so not much loss there :P
Post by: Telgin on August 13, 2021, 01:53:51 pm
I'll probably end up taking adaptability instead of domination now, so at least there's that option.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 13, 2021, 04:34:18 pm
Post by: Telgin on August 13, 2021, 05:03:55 pm
I don't know. I think it would be better if there were maybe 15 trees, where you have twice as many trees available as you can take, but that would be difficult to make the flavor and balance work out for.
Another thought strikes me: exclusive traditions or trees that you can spend unity on to respec might be a new way to spend unity late game. Not sure that there would ever be a reason to do this, but maybe there could be. Spending unity to respec ascension perks is probably impossible to do sensibly on the other hand.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 13, 2021, 06:26:04 pm
Diplomacy: I like this a lot! Getting favors from envoys could save some bribe materials, and is more interesting than dumping them on the GC directly to boost diplomatic weight. The unity from embassy pacts might be kinda nice, mostly early on. And heck, a flat +5 acceptance points is like a free favor, not bad at all when it matters. Definite pick.
Harmony: I like the changes, but I don't value what this tree provides. I'll miss the +5 stability and that's it.
Supremacy: Ouch, were starbases considered OP for some reason? Instead of getting a substantial cost discount, they'll now take +20% damage? alrighty. I'll still take this because a better military is always important.
Prosperity: Oh hey it's my +5 stability bonus! And a *general* pop resource output of +5%, yum! A fancy bonus job per 50 pops was always pretty meh. Anyway, a solid tree is better now.
Mercantile: ...wait, seriously? uh... woah... Yeah this looks fricken amazing as someone who highly prioritizes trade value. That's a 25% boost to base clerk output before multipliers (if it's like Mining Guilds and I'm not crazy), a *lot* of bonus merchant jobs with my typical build style... plus another juicy +10% modifier to trade value, can never get enough of those. Obviously this is a must-have for Megacorps, but even for regular empires this seems pretty nice. Like... clerk jobs were always most useful as make-work program, so really suffered hard from the population nerf, but those precious pops will largely be working as merchants instead which is amazing! I can't wait to try this out, I'm picturing a nice voidborne megacorp that really late game might end up having more rulers than workers (lots of unfilled clerk jobs, and lots of specialists of course).
(Plus when I'm in a trade federation, enjoying that amazing unique trade policy, I'll get the +50% federation fleet contribution! Which is a massive effective boost to naval capacity for the endgame)
Unyielding: I guess this is why they nerfed starbases in Supremacy, huh. Most of this seems pretty irrelevant, but -50% starbase upgrade cost could be kinda nice for late-game fortifying. Starbases don't win fights on their own, but they can make a pretty significant difference to a fleet battle (and they're a place to dump alloys on defense without exceeding your fleet cap). Gotta get those modules that grand system-wide bonuses, and some ion cannons.
I can't decode that last new tradition, probably isn't important (I really haven't bothered with espionage even in the multiplayer games where I can experience the DLC)
Edit: I think they've edited the post a couple times - Domination's finisher is 20% more admin cap instead of +10% ruler production, which seems less janky for reasons y'all pointed out. And Unyielding is unlocked by Apocalypse, not Nemesis as they apparently said at first.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 19, 2021, 11:40:06 am
Masterful crafters seems strong. Just a good buff to a common job and extra building slots.
Pleasure Seekers is a bit weird. I don't really want to think on what the buff to entertainers could mean, but it seems strange that it comes with a bonus that allows servants to somewhat replace entertainers. A bit of a nonbo there I feel. Also it's made to be used with slaves, but doesn't allow the slavery civic... Uhhhhh. What the heck??? It's also a bit strange that decadent lifestyle has less upkeep (for most) then utopian abundance, but makes everyone just as happy, especially since the flavor text seems to imply a somewhat stratified society but it makes the lower classes just as happy as the upper ones? Seems like it could be an okay civic, allowing you to have a more happy authoritarian society but I'm unsure if it's enough to be worth a civic slot compared to just having a normal Stratified Economy... Well... I kinda like the idea of a flavorful civic like this, but the mechanics behind it are so weird that I'm unsure about it.
Clone army is cool. Clone vats seem... Strong? You start with 14 monthly pop assembly? And can build up to 21 more? That seems very strong for a huge early game population burst, although you can't grow pops naturally but that's pretty trivial of a thing to fix. Low leader lifespan sucks I guess. And I guess eventually you max out on pop, have to see what that max is. It's at least sorta cool I guess and sounds like it comes with some sorta storyline events thing which might be cool.
Post by: Iceblaster on August 19, 2021, 12:52:42 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on August 19, 2021, 01:12:54 pm
I wasn't sure if there would be another dev diary this week or if the patch release counted, but here it is. (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/stellaris-dev-diary-220-additions-to-humanoids-species-pack.1487837/)Changes to the humanoid pack.Unlike lithoids and plantoids, these additions to the humanoid pack are not actually limited to humanoids. So that's kinda cool!
Masterful crafters seems strong. Just a good buff to a common job and extra building slots.
Pleasure Seekers is a bit weird. I don't really want to think on what the buff to entertainers could mean, but it seems strange that it comes with a bonus that allows servants to somewhat replace entertainers. A bit of a nonbo there I feel. Also it's made to be used with slaves, but doesn't allow the slavery civic... Uhhhhh. What the heck??? It's also a bit strange that decadent lifestyle has less upkeep (for most) then utopian abundance, but makes everyone just as happy, especially since the flavor text seems to imply a somewhat stratified society but it makes the lower classes just as happy as the upper ones? Seems like it could be an okay civic, allowing you to have a more happy authoritarian society but I'm unsure if it's enough to be worth a civic slot compared to just having a normal Stratified Economy... Well... I kinda like the idea of a flavorful civic like this, but the mechanics behind it are so weird that I'm unsure about it.
Clone army is cool. Clone vats seem... Strong? You start with 14 monthly pop assembly? And can build up to 21 more? That seems very strong for a huge early game population burst, although you can't grow pops naturally but that's pretty trivial of a thing to fix. Low leader lifespan sucks I guess. And I guess eventually you max out on pop, have to see what that max is. It's at least sorta cool I guess and sounds like it comes with some sorta storyline events thing which might be cool.
I pretty much agree with Criptfiend's analysis. Additionally there will apparently be a megacorp version of the Mater Crafters civic which frankly sounds pretty useless to me, heh. Why would a megacorp need CG or even more bonus amenities when there is trade? I exaggerate a little, but only a little :P
Apparently the Pleasure Seekers thing is supposed to represent pre-Slaanesh Eldar, to the point that a dev agreed that there ought to be a special interaction with Slaanesh's expy in the Shroud. I *guess* that's why they can't enslave themselves via Slaver Guilds, only enslave xenos? Or they can have no slaves at all and just get the benefits of Utopian Abundance through, uh, hedonism. To be fair it does cost a civic in exchange for its much lower CG usage. It also doesn't have the UA unemployment benefits but those obviously barely matter anymore.
Clone army sounds particularly wonky to me, designed for early game rushing. Incredible population assembly but permanently limited to 5
Oh and +50% army damage is usually a joke, but in the early game it's a lot less so.
Post by: Telgin on August 19, 2021, 02:54:53 pm
The rest of the dev diary is okay and interesting, even if I probably won't make use of the new origin or other civic. The clone army origin is interesting, but I think maybe it would have been better to be a generic engineered species origin instead of being military specific.
I'm also a tad disappointed that there weren't more civics and no new traits, but it's all free stuff if you have the DLC so I won't complain too much.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on August 19, 2021, 06:34:11 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on August 19, 2021, 06:40:22 pm
Post by: Telgin on August 19, 2021, 06:54:28 pm
But then, as they pointed out, it does eat up a civic slot, so that factors into the balancing some.
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 21, 2021, 09:37:57 am
Communism is dead, turns out decadence leads to an overall happier more stable society for probably less cost.Coomunism will rise, but it is not the only thing which rises
Post by: MrRoboto75 on August 21, 2021, 11:47:30 am
communism with xeno-compatability so the sperm can truly be divided equally amongst the people.Communism is dead, turns out decadence leads to an overall happier more stable society for probably less cost.Coomunism will rise, but it is not the only thing which rises
Post by: Rolan7 on September 14, 2021, 10:19:45 am
Post by: Telgin on September 14, 2021, 10:42:29 am
I'm really interested in trying out some of the new civics and the tradition changes. None of it's revolutionary, but it should be fun regardless. Also glad to see some of the bugfixes, like reinforcement fleets being willing to join and reinforce fleets in combat and not lingering in the fleet manager if destroyed.
Now, how many new bugs will they introduce? That's the real question. :)
Post by: Rolan7 on September 14, 2021, 04:36:44 pm
So I was a little confused when I got contacted by the Fanatical Purifiers... But they were molluscs? All became clear when the arthropoid Devouring Swarm contacted me shortly after.
that went about as well as you'd think, especially since I hadn't invested in anchorages at all. I threw together a relatively high-tech fleet almost of almost 40 ships and tried to gank the Purifiers while the Swarm was busy devouring someone I hadn't met, but they countered with a fleet 50% stronger. Since I myself was 50% over my fleet capacity, I decided to concede. This is as militarist, mind you, but really it was just supremely bad luck. I was just as likely to roll pacifist authoritarians as neighbors, and I was largely to blame for overexpanding. (I also didn't remember "nonadaptive" would give me 70% habitability on worlds of my exact biome).
Gotta say though, the Idyllic Bloom thing doesn't seem very strong. Even the first stage (of four) costs 1350 energy, then 20 energy/month and a building slot, just to get +10% pop growth. And the planet type has to match your homeworld, and it takes like 14 months to build that stage. It might be a great flavor thing, but... if you're going to be terraforming anyway, there's a perfectly good ascension perk.
On the other hand while Idyllic Bloom doesn't work with Habitat or Ring World preference (or Life Seeded lul), it does appear to be compatible with Tomb World preference. And I do know one way to "terraform" to tomb worlds, though it takes a particular civic ;)
Edit: (furthermore, budding seemed kinda nice but I was still struggling for pops to fill jobs. Probably shouldn't have expanded to non-tropical worlds as Unadaptive. Frankly I shouldn't have taken a wet world preference, but I was trying to play plants and maybe even take the *objectively waste of a pick* make-alloys-from-food civic eventually. All for flavor really.)
Post by: Telgin on September 15, 2021, 05:17:08 pm
Budding is another one that I figured was cool for flavor and looked okay on paper, but probably wouldn't pan out and be great in practice. It won't do much to fight against the new pop growth mechanics, which I despise and turn off now.
Master Crafters on the other hand has been pretty nice for my life-seeded species who always struggle for consumer goods in the early game. Even with the loss of the consumer benefits economic policy, with Master Crafters I've had a nice surplus of consumer goods so far. The extra engineering research is just a small but nice little cherry on top.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 16, 2021, 11:42:42 pm
Idyllic Bloom does appear to be compatible with Tomb World preference.
It does but it doesn't :/ (assuming you mean the tomb world origin)
Like it'd be cool if your civ was dedicated to un-tombing your world via bloom, but it don't work that way. It doesn't give you tomb preference anymore, just a big habit bonus towards tombs, and therefore tombs aren't "native" enough to bloom into gaias. Meaning I guess you need to terraform the tomb world anyway.
Post by: Rolan7 on September 16, 2021, 11:47:40 pm
The wild part would be that it'd require Fanatical Purifiers to get the armageddon bombing. Though I guess Jovian Pox or Become The Crisis hijinks work too, but I don't have those DLC yet. (I keep getting really close to buying Nemesis for the Custodian content but I'd prefer a sale, even though it's such a meaty DLC and the non-DLC new content have been great)
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 18, 2021, 04:11:35 pm
>Pick barbaric despoiler, figure why not, slave pops to fluff out pops because clones don't grow
>Relatively weak Lithoid neighbor
yeah boy
edit: they have the rare crystal generation trait as well
Post by: IronyOwl on November 26, 2021, 09:22:49 pm
I'm still not sure if it's brilliance or coincidence that led them to making exactly the thing I wanted, but they got my $8.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on November 26, 2021, 10:55:05 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on November 26, 2021, 11:15:43 pm
Post by: Telgin on November 27, 2021, 01:54:29 am
Post by: Radsoc on November 27, 2021, 03:15:29 am
Post by: Telgin on November 27, 2021, 10:31:33 pm
Post by: Telgin on December 03, 2021, 10:35:23 am
I find myself remembering why I like to play isolationists in this game. I decided to play xenophiles for a change and create a research federation with my neighbors. Well, the game put opposing ethics near me as usual so out of all of my neighbors, only one would go for it even with envoys improving relations. One neighbor was close to acceptance before they rivaled the other, and they refuse to join a federation with them. Fine, whatever. I still get the federation perks with just one other empire in it.
Fast forward and I completed the special project to revive the Awoken. Great. They settled in a single system next to my federation buddies. I figured I'd be able to invite them too at some point.
Oh, what's this? A war proposal from my pacifist buddies? They want to impose their ideology on the Awoken? Must be because my buddies are spiritualists and the Awoken are robots. No. No war, please.
That's been repeating every few years and every time I tell my pacifist buddies to stop trying to declare war on a single system empire that's friendly to us, they get -50 opinion of me. I figure that's going to stack up enough to matter pretty soon. I may have to release a sector as a vassal and invite them to the federation. They'll at least go along with me and hopefully won't be this infuriating to work with.
Post by: Radsoc on December 03, 2021, 11:31:22 am
There tends to be some checkerboard diplomacy due to border friction and what not as well.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 25, 2022, 04:56:13 pm
Spoiler: Playing in the latest beta patch. (click to show/hide)
Oh boy I can't wait to get back to manually deleting my less valuable star systems in the mid game. I do wonder if stellaris devs will ever realize the reason why stellaris is played like a shallow map painter isn't because of some numbers they can tweek, but because it's a shallow map painter.
Post by: axiomsofdominion on January 25, 2022, 05:21:25 pm
Post by: Telgin on January 25, 2022, 05:23:38 pm
Maybe people will stop complaining about tall vs. wide as much now. Being a bigger empire will still always be better and I seriously hope they never introduce janky mechanics that somehow make single planet empires competitive (again), but it's good that they're making it so that there are at least some drawbacks to just grabbing everything in sight.
It occurs to me now that unless they gut most of the game and start over, they'll never fix this problem or a number of others completely. Vassals are always going to cause logical problems, like how releasing a sector as a vassal suddenly makes your empire research faster and also makes the population grow faster in that sector. I'm guessing that's going to be the new meta, even more than it already is because of the ridiculous pop growth system.
In other news, I do like the ideas they have for unity. I'm looking forward to seeing the final version of the patch, and haven't touched the beta.
Post by: axiomsofdominion on January 25, 2022, 09:03:53 pm
No amount of stupid rewrites of of abstract "corruption" mechanics, a style of attempted mechanic going all the way back to early Civ games, is ever going to resolve this issue.
Post by: Nelia Hawk on January 26, 2022, 02:50:38 am
more "in empire" problems to deal with that prevent being just a powerhouse because you got so many planets.
Post by: Telgin on January 26, 2022, 09:35:56 am
For the former problem (sprawl), I guess it's easy enough to represent that by tech and unity cost penalties. A more realistic system would probably just have different tech levels per planet and some "cost" to propagating it, but I can't see Stellaris ever implementing something like that for sanity reasons. Unity is such a vague concept that I don't know how it would be implemented differently unless it too was per-planet and factored into planetary stability or something, with the unhappy pops costing unity upkeep like an earlier dev diary proposed.
For the latter problem, people have been screaming for internal politics since the game was released so it's starting to look doubtful that we'll get anything substantial considering the other DLC that's been developed before it. I have some hope that the "situations" concept that they've proposed in recent dev diaries will give at least some flavor to that, but my guess is that it's not going to be that sophisticated. It'll probably be something like galactic stock market crashes that cause a big penalty to your trade value or something. Supposedly it's based on a system from some other game of theirs that I haven't played so it's probably not going to be a real mystery what it will be for anyone who is familiar.
Internal politics will be hard to implement in an interesting and not frustrating way I guess, similar to espionage, meaning it probably won't ever have real teeth.
Post by: axiomsofdominion on January 26, 2022, 12:22:10 pm
That's what I and I imagine most of the players were and are hoping for. Really, the game probably needs both: some system that represents the overhead of such a large empire by making some things like unity generation less efficient, and some mechanic to represent instability due to internal conflict.
For the former problem (sprawl), I guess it's easy enough to represent that by tech and unity cost penalties. A more realistic system would probably just have different tech levels per planet and some "cost" to propagating it, but I can't see Stellaris ever implementing something like that for sanity reasons. Unity is such a vague concept that I don't know how it would be implemented differently unless it too was per-planet and factored into planetary stability or something, with the unhappy pops costing unity upkeep like an earlier dev diary proposed.
For the latter problem, people have been screaming for internal politics since the game was released so it's starting to look doubtful that we'll get anything substantial considering the other DLC that's been developed before it. I have some hope that the "situations" concept that they've proposed in recent dev diaries will give at least some flavor to that, but my guess is that it's not going to be that sophisticated. It'll probably be something like galactic stock market crashes that cause a big penalty to your trade value or something. Supposedly it's based on a system from some other game of theirs that I haven't played so it's probably not going to be a real mystery what it will be for anyone who is familiar.
Internal politics will be hard to implement in an interesting and not frustrating way I guess, similar to espionage, meaning it probably won't ever have real teeth.
The problem with Paradox is they are too multiplayer focused. You can tell because of their extensive use of "Mana". This is basically a boardgame design concept, obviously it isn't actually called "Mana". And boardgames are almost always multiplayer, except some of the nicher economics only games.
Unity is mana. It is a "balance" shortcut as well as a multiplayer thing. In a boardgame the player meta play replaces internal or even external interaction. Same for Dev Clash. No one cares about what the AIs do in big 20+ player Dev Clashes. But even most people who have a normal amount of friends don't have 20 Paradox Bros to play with.
Prestige and Piety are distinct from "Mana" to be clear. You gain them by doing prestigious or pious things and they provide relevant bonuses and in cases where you can "spend" them you do it for flavor relevant reasons. Although I prefer penalties associated with actions that have other costs rather than direct costs for these non-mana resources.
To have good internal politics you need a system just as deep as the combat systems. Which is pretty deep or at least complex given that Paradox games are map-painter war games at their core. The same applies for diplomacy and for espionage.
Another issue is the market. The market for shallow non-combat mechanics on top of core war-games is large. The, current since a really good example could grow it, market for attempts at deep non-combat mechanics is vague and amorphous. Maybe it will coalesce if you make a good politics or diplomacy game or maybe it won't.
Maybe you take that risk if your top guys aren't multiplayer focused but as it happens they are so Paradox won't.
Post by: LuuBluum on January 26, 2022, 02:32:21 pm
Post by: axiomsofdominion on January 26, 2022, 04:02:01 pm
To be fair, Paradox's origins with these games were, in fact, board games. Europa Universalis was a board game before it was ever a computer game. They simply migrated it to a computer, and then iterated from there. Everything else they've done has been built from that.
Yeah EU1 from the boardgame in 2000. But that limits them when they sell themselves as a company with games that aren't map painters and that are awesome in single player.
Post by: Mephansteras on January 26, 2022, 05:30:43 pm
I'd rather see a bunch of things done to make Tall Empires better than any nerfs to Wide Empires, because nerfs to make another play style more competitive almost always make whatever you're nerfing less fun.
Post by: axiomsofdominion on January 26, 2022, 05:53:03 pm
Part of the issue is that they always end up coming at it from a perspective of "How can we make Tall Empires competitive" rather than "How can we make Tall Empires fun".
I'd rather see a bunch of things done to make Tall Empires better than any nerfs to Wide Empires, because nerfs to make another play style more competitive almost always make whatever you're nerfing less fun.
Stellaris is hamstrung from doing either of those things. Why did tall empires arise in the real world? What did they do and why? Even if Paradox knew the answers to these questions the game framework doesn't really allow you to implement the ideas.
Post by: IronyOwl on January 27, 2022, 02:57:24 pm
Stellaris is hamstrung from doing either of those things. Why did tall empires arise in the real world? What did they do and why? Even if Paradox knew the answers to these questions the game framework doesn't really allow you to implement the ideas.The better question might be why players want to or end up making tall empires. Note that the cycle image posted above is entirely driven by player behavior.
They're also not terribly well set up for that sort of thing, but "is it physically possible to make small empires fun in Stellaris" is both a more feasible and more direct question than "why did some small nations in history not immediately get conquered by their neighbors."
Post by: Telgin on January 27, 2022, 03:54:57 pm
1. You got boxed in early on and just don't have much territory. This isn't something you generally want but it can happen, and I guess having some way for players to compete if it does happen is useful. This is what sprawl helps with, but it's only part of a solution, and I think it's fair to say that an empire with less space really should have less potential than one that is bigger.
2. You don't want to administer a big empire, or find it too tedious. This is more of a gameplay issue that would have to be addressed through better automation or just changing the way planets and pops work so that they aren't so tedious.
3. RP reasons, like wanting to be isolated in your corner of the galaxy or potentially playing as a fallen empire if the mechanics really supported it. In this case I guess you just know what you're getting into when you play a small empire. Maybe they could introduce new mechanics that made this more interesting, like the way megacorps work.
Number one is probably the main thing everyone thinks about, but as I've said I'm not sure how much of a problem it is from a gameplay perspective. It doesn't help that nobody can really agree on what tall means. Some people think that having fewer and more heavily developed planets means tall. Some think it means having fewer systems with dozens of habitats. Those both would play very differently.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 27, 2022, 04:26:24 pm
Post by: Telgin on January 27, 2022, 05:17:42 pm
Maybe it's still unfair to say that choosing to not expand into territory that's available to you peacefully is deliberately crippling yourself, but I'm not sure how else to really see it. If you want to do it for RP reasons, that's fine, but it's still what it is.
It isn't like on Earth where every speck of land is either already owned by someone or protected by international treaties. One can conceive of reasons on Earth that a nation might still choose to not take territory if it was available and unowned (such as difficulty with defending or policing it), but those concerns aren't really modeled well in Stellaris. There might be random systems you might not want because it would require extra defensive stations but it's not like those handful of systems really change the power level of different competing empires much compared to where you end up starting in the galaxy and how much space that affords you from the beginning.
Post by: EuchreJack on January 27, 2022, 07:53:13 pm
They also have to make it easier to group together and backstab. It's the tried-and-true technique to growth in every other Paradox game, but quite hard in Stellaris.
Post by: axiomsofdominion on January 27, 2022, 08:34:45 pm
Stellaris is hamstrung from doing either of those things. Why did tall empires arise in the real world? What did they do and why? Even if Paradox knew the answers to these questions the game framework doesn't really allow you to implement the ideas.The better question might be why players want to or end up making tall empires. Note that the cycle image posted above is entirely driven by player behavior.
They're also not terribly well set up for that sort of thing, but "is it physically possible to make small empires fun in Stellaris" is both a more feasible and more direct question than "why did some small nations in history not immediately get conquered by their neighbors."
It is about a framework. And for Paradox and stuff like Civ these are history games and people are primed to go tall cause of history. Similarly fantasy "tall states" drive player desire. You can't play the great game/game of houses, like the First Of Mayene if the political and diplomatic sim is too simple.
Post by: Rolan7 on February 07, 2022, 10:08:15 pm
Quote
I encountered a marauder faction
Who believe in bloodthirsty action
They stay on their side
While I abide
But I fear their defining axiom
Post by: Telgin on March 02, 2022, 09:57:57 am
Overall I think I like the changes, even if it's a bit funny to see them do a 180 on the admin cap. The game feels better paced, and it's good to have a reason to build unity generating buildings. I really like the edict changes, which feel much more natural than before, and it actually gives me some pause before enabling the strategic resource combat edicts since they cost quite a lot per month.
Post by: Criptfeind on March 02, 2022, 10:34:36 am
As for the admin cap, I think this attempt might get over the subterranean bar of being better then the last time they tried to make empire sprawl a thing that actually mattered but I'm still not sure if I actually like it as a mechanic. Frankly, I'm not sure either way yet on these changes. And probably need more games with different set ups to see how it works out because I'm too lazy to do the actual math behind it and figure out what's best.
Post by: Telgin on March 05, 2022, 01:57:51 am
I hate manually choosing crises because I like it to be random, but I guess it's still going to be mandatory. It's just one data point and maybe they did really change something, but I still despise the early spawn mechanic if you research jump drives.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 05, 2022, 03:13:29 pm
Post by: Robsoie on March 08, 2022, 08:08:35 am
(https://i.imgur.com/Co9KD9S.jpg)
Early in the empire expansion, we met 3 AI empires and we filled the space we could with starbases before everything was blocked by AI closing borders as soon as they could.
Only way out to continue expansion is walking over one of those guys, so let's plan the invasion of the smaller empire, making claims in its sector.
Starting to build up the corvette fleets (as nothing more was yet available in researches) and some assault troops to occupy planets.
But before i got to a decent enough fleet size for the plan, the 3 empires decided to take turns in declaring war on me (despite my attempts to delay that inevitable by trying to improve the starting catastrophics relations with envoys), none of them is allied to another, they just all hate me more than i hate them apparently.
(https://i.imgur.com/PD0YRFg.jpg)
And here we are, each empires have corvettes fleets that are roughly equals to mine (i guess they planned to attack even before i did :D ) , but they're 3 (and one of them is already absurdly big and his fleet hit slightly harder) so they have more than 3 times more fleets than me, and they're invading from 3 different zones on my borders making it so it's impossible to defend everywhere at once (and pitiful starports can't do a thing against even a simple basic fleet that early) .
And with technology being still early (and alloys does not grow on trees to replace the ship losses) , the less i can say is that my empire is simply screwed, man the life of a fanatic xenophobe empire is hard :D
Post by: Telgin on March 08, 2022, 11:04:53 am
After my disastrous run in with the Funbidden, I started over and got a fairly strange galaxy. This time there are at least 4 fanatic purifiers in my vicinity, and so far I've only seen friendly empire. In fact, there's not even a galactic community by 2270, which I'm not sure I've seen outside of unusual galaxy parameters like having no AI empires.
Oddly, despite there being so many purifiers, nobody has declared war on me yet. I don't directly border anyone, so that's probably the main reason. I was also lucky enough to have the Sanctuary special system on one border, so if someone does declare war and try to attack through that direction they'll probably decide to take the long way around or just path through the hostiles and die.
Post by: Robsoie on March 08, 2022, 11:10:07 am
edit : discovered how to work around the lack of salvaging in that game (as disbanding ships does not give back at least some material for some reason).
in the fleet editor, make sure "auto best" is disabled, and by example if you want to salvage all your corvette, edit the corvette design and remove everything that can be removed (or press the clear button) , save the design.
Now for your corvetters fleet, select the "upgrade" button, and they will then strip themselves of everything. Then you can finally disband them.
Doing so will give you back some materials
Post by: Telgin on March 08, 2022, 12:22:23 pm
At least we're not back in the days of naked corvettes, but I suspect there are probably still people who run competitive multiplayer games by stripping their starting ships to get alloys up front, or decommission them to save on upkeep for some number of years.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 08, 2022, 06:47:22 pm
It's not usually important to retire corvettes. They remain somewhat competitive throughout the game, particularly one pure-corvette fleet with maximal speed to get places fast. They mostly suffer from taking scratch damage/losses even when they win. I tend to keep a good portion in every fleet, with the picket module for PD, to guard against enemy fighters/missiles and maybe screen from my capital ships from some shots. They engage quick and they dodge a lot.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 08, 2022, 09:28:27 pm
The new tech, I hear, is to put your starting scientist leaders into your first science vessels instead of hiring new ones to save unity.
Post by: Robsoie on March 09, 2022, 07:15:17 am
Fortunately there's still the marketplace to buy more.
I often read that instead of having mixed fleet, you should always go with the strongest ship type you have, except with destroyers, that aren't that much better than corvettes. While apparently in early versions of Stellaris each ship had a very defined role and werent made obsolete by bigger types.
Post by: Telgin on March 09, 2022, 10:39:30 am
Destroyers have similar issues to corvettes in that you're better off keeping them out of mixed fleets with battleships, but I think some people do still stick them in battleship fleets for PD. I've never really tried it and instead just put a few carrier battleships in my fleets to act as PD, but I don't actually know which is better. The carriers' strike craft probably do something dumb instead of acting as PD like you'd expect.
All of that said, torpedo corvettes remain viable until the endgame, so people tend to either go for monofleets of corvettes or battleships. I'm on the battleship side of the spectrum since I just balk at the idea of tossing corvettes at things knowing some will be destroyed, but there's a good case made for using corvettes from a tactical PoV.
Economically, I tend to struggle with consumer goods forever since I like to play Life Seeded. Until 3.0 it was a huge struggle to balance consumer goods and alloys, but with industrial districts it's a lot less of a headache.
Post by: Robsoie on March 09, 2022, 10:45:55 am
Great way to cripple your economy if you don't pay attention as i often got myself into, upgrading every buildings when available without checking their upkeep increase :D
Post by: Telgin on March 09, 2022, 12:48:15 pm
I really like the Master Crafters civic they added, since it helps a lot with Life Seeded empires by increasing CG production. If you play Life Seeded you're mostly guaranteed to have 0% habitability everywhere but your homeworld until around midgame when you can get World Shaper or other perks that let you mitigate habitability problems, and I tend to have major issues until then. Then once I do get those, I'm suddenly running huge surpluses of CG that hold me over until late game. Running Life Seeded egalitarians who try to run Utopian Abundance from the beginning is a hilarious CG struggle, but I've done it a time or two.
If you're running xenophiles it's not so bad since you can get immigrants from other empires that have better habitability.
Post by: Robsoie on March 11, 2022, 07:53:34 am
Got the ruler at some point to be celebrated as a deity (https://i.imgur.com/E21mPIr.jpg) /check
Surrounded by really filthy xenos (https://i.imgur.com/E97oPCG.jpg) /check
Can have part or all the population genetically modified /check
Policies and species rights allow to purge the aliens, the heretics (https://i.imgur.com/ktLoK3O.jpg) /check
So Stellaris can be wh40k sometime :D
Post by: Rolan7 on March 11, 2022, 08:18:43 am
Post by: Robsoie on March 11, 2022, 11:21:42 am
On other subject, probably got the most disapointing Crisis so far because i played with enabling 1 Fallen Empire in my map and wow it made the Crisis a non-event.
around 2400 the Fallen Empire decide to wake up as we had reached the triggers. It offered me to join them as subjects but even when i declined they did nothing more, just had their recently spawned out of thin air huge fleets floating around a couple of its systems.
2410 finally the Crisis happened, it was the "Unbidden" one. This time the crisis happened in a different empire (last time it was directly in mine) so i felt much less urgency.
Problem : i noticed that the AI despite the 3.3 improvement is really crap at dealing with Crisis. As it's the 2nd time i got to this point and the AI still does not fight back, it's unfortunately not a fluke but a deficiency of the game AI.
While in a normal war the 3.3 AI not only can now put up a fight but has its AI allies even trying to support and fight back, when it's a Crisis it's like the AI does not even notice it's there, the empire that got invaded was simply letting itself get destroyed progressively (didn't noticed any of its fleet moving to defend his own worlds), none of the AI allies was doing anything (it was in a Federation with another AI empire).
Now that is for the normal AI, i witnessed that the fallen empire AI is very different as it's like its fleets were actually triggered by the arrival of the Crisis, i observed that all the Fallen AI fleets were immediately making a beeline to the Crisis center and were annihilating any Unbidden ships on their way.
The balance seems also be thrown off, as at that point the Fallen Empire "simple" fleets were noticably stronger than the Unbidden ones, and i even saw a "merged" fleet of the Fallen Empire that had fire power near to 3 times ! the fire power of the strongest Unbidden fleet.
Strongest Unbidden fleet that would have needed all my fleets (and probably a couple of allies) to match in firepower at that point.
I had to use my fleets jump drive (and wait the 200 days to get the fleets back at full power) to get ahead of the Fallen Empire so i was be able to at least destroy 2 Unbidden "minor" fleets before the Fallen Empire destroyed them all by just sneezing, so i could at least improve my final score.
At least the Unbidden relic is fun, ability to jump all other the small galaxy instead of only 1/3 of it and being faster on the starlanes is cool.
Too bad without DLC the Federation system is so stripped down that any ridiculously small empire can veto any declaration of war because changing the voting system is DLC-only
But wow, playing with Fallen Empires enabled makes really Crisis a joke, will not enable one on my next game.
Post by: Telgin on March 11, 2022, 03:07:25 pm
Were you on standard crisis settings? I've seen this too, where on normal settings the fallen empires can mostly handle the crisis themselves. If you crank the crisis strength up much this is no longer true though, and it'll inevitably fall to the player to save the galaxy or die trying.
I'll find out soon if I get the Unbidden again myself. I suspect the problem is still there where you're almost guaranteed to get them 50 years early if you research jump drives, but don't have but one data point so far. Supposedly they adjusted the numbers in 3.3 to make that less likely but we'll see.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 11, 2022, 03:20:04 pm
Commonwealth of Man is a Fanatic Militarist and (not fanatic) Xenophobe empire /check
Got the ruler at some point to be celebrated as a deity (https://i.imgur.com/E21mPIr.jpg) /check
Surrounded by really filthy xenos (https://i.imgur.com/E97oPCG.jpg) /check
Can have part or all the population genetically modified /check
Policies and species rights allow to purge the aliens, the heretics (https://i.imgur.com/ktLoK3O.jpg) /check
So Stellaris can be wh40k sometime :D
in order to be whaok the game would have to let you be a fanatic militarist fanatic xenophobe fanatic authoritarian fanatic spiritualist fanatic materialist empire.
Post by: Robsoie on March 11, 2022, 03:30:50 pm
Hmm, i wonder if creating many fanatic xenophobe species for the AI could lead into a more "there's only war" type of game then.
I think this behavior is because of the fleet strengths. The AI is generally smart enough to not throw fleets at enemy fleets it can't beat, and while it does gang up with multiple fleets where it can, I don't think it does this consistently and especially when dealing with the crisis. So, the normal empires just wait to be killed instead of allying with each other to send large numbers of smaller fleets to counter a crisis fleet, where fallen empires have strong enough fleets that they will fight normally.
Were you on standard crisis settings? I've seen this too, where on normal settings the fallen empires can mostly handle the crisis themselves. If you crank the crisis strength up much this is no longer true though, and it'll inevitably fall to the player to save the galaxy or die trying..
I was on easy difficulty, so that may explain why the fallen empire is the only one actually trying when there's a crisis as i noticed on that game i was way ahead in term of fleet power (probably time to up the difficulty as i am starting to get used to the system) despite a couple of empires were as big as mine (and one was ahead in economy while the other was ahead in researches).
Too bad the AI can't do joint operations with its allies, unless it's "yet another dlc" like many stripped down features in paradox games.
Post by: LoSboccacc on March 12, 2022, 03:30:02 am
in order to be whaok the game would have to let you be a fanatic militarist fanatic xenophobe fanatic authoritarian fanatic spiritualist fanatic materialist empire.
wouldn't say imperium is materialist. maybe 30k imperium, but that one is not spiritualist. fanatic xenophobe / spiritual seems close enough, with the authoritarian angle coming more from policies and government style.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 15, 2022, 04:03:04 pm
Post by: Grim Portent on March 15, 2022, 04:17:49 pm
The Mechanicus are actually non-materialist weirdly enough, believing in an abstract deity (Deus Mechanicus) who sent robo-Jesus (the Omnissiah) to guide them to spiritual enlightenment through the understanding of the blessed machine. They're space Catholics with a robot aesthetic, and tech manuals in place of bibles. They even have a Holy Ghost analogue called the Motive Force to fill out the trinity.
Post by: Sirus on March 15, 2022, 04:33:07 pm
Post-scarcity communist anarchism. Culture society has few if any laws, no need for currency, and as much freedom and equality as they can manage. Life is basically idyllic for most.
Great reliance on machines to manage their society. From unintelligent machines to sentient AI drones (who count as full citizens of the Culture) all the way to incredibly potent Minds that keep things running.
A disdain for living on planetary surfaces, preferring instead to live on orbital habitats and ships and such. After all, why mess around with undesirable ecosystems or destructive terraforming when you can just build tailor-made environments in space?
My first thought was to make a Rogue Servitor empire with the Void Dwellers origin, but quickly discovered that Machine Intelligences were not allowed to go that route. It also locks you out of certain ascension perks that would fit the Culture well but require normal, non-Gestalt ethics. Thus my dilemma. How to make something that at least resembles the Culture?
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 15, 2022, 05:01:59 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on March 15, 2022, 06:05:09 pm
Post by: Grim Portent on March 15, 2022, 07:31:23 pm
Presumably the Culture started on a planet, or an already existing space station, then expanded from there. While it's not efficient in Stellaris, you could start on a planet, then move everyone to space stations once you can start building them, leaving the homeworld behind as a memento of sorts.
Or mod it so Gestalts can start as void dwellers, it's honestly a bit odd to me that they can't.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 16, 2022, 07:43:10 am
Post by: Sirus on March 16, 2022, 08:58:53 am
I might have to do as Rolan suggested and start with a xenophile/materialist/egalitarian normal society and just rush (or cheat) for synths as early as possible.
Post by: Criptfeind on March 17, 2022, 03:46:34 pm
I do like playing as a vassaling nation in stellaris so I'm sorta interested to see what comes out, but I'm a bit unsure because interactions with weaker nations in in stellaris is pretty uninteresting because the game doesn't have and fundamentally doesn't support anything like having catch up mechanics or even really working together much so most of the time weaker nations have no purpose and are pretty much irrelevant as anything but an income source. And I'm not sure how you can make interacting with them interesting without some fundamental shifts to how stellaris works.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 17, 2022, 04:42:48 pm
Post by: Robsoie on March 17, 2022, 05:12:53 pm
It's a Crisis-like event with enemy fleets assaulting regularly a system from either you or AI empires with fleets that will behave like a pirate fleet (excepted that they always have fleets stronger than yours) and destroy the stations located in the system, then unlike a pirate fleet they will teleport back to their home after completing their destruction (can also bomb for a certain % of devastation the planet located in that system)
Unlike a Crisis, this one will happen from the beginning of the game and those raids will last until a special assault on your capital system that will allow you to get a way to reach their homeworld located in another dimension (well in term of Stellaris it's a system that is located outside of the galaxy map and will only be reachable at some point of the event progress) and put an end to this by destroying the very powerfull threat waiting there (and getting the nice loot) .
Now that's all good and etc but there's a gimmick to the Vazuran fleets that i unfortunately had to learn while doing as even when i managed to get similar fire power to their powerfull homeworld defense fleet, i got destroyed easily.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Eric Blank on March 17, 2022, 09:38:47 pm
Can mods add endgame crises?
Post by: Shooer on March 17, 2022, 10:25:47 pm
Post by: Robsoie on March 18, 2022, 06:47:30 am
After an initial hammering, i have finally been able to stop their progression into my space, my battleships fleets are still holding the half of my empire with my losses being replaced fast enough but it seems to be a question of time i'll be the last organic thing in the universe, hopefully i can hold until the end of the game, while the other AI empires end being completely wiped out.
In the same time with my fanatic xenophobe empire , it's not like they were friendly to me, but funnily once the Contigency started to destroy them , they all opened their borders with me "please save us oh mighty evil xenophobic empire" :D
Post by: Telgin on March 18, 2022, 09:10:49 pm
Next DLC was announced. Stellaris: Overlord (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/stellaris-dev-diary-246-announcing-overlord.1515008/) not much info yet outside what's immediately obvious from the name; it'll have to do with vassals and subjugation.
I do like playing as a vassaling nation in stellaris so I'm sorta interested to see what comes out, but I'm a bit unsure because interactions with weaker nations in in stellaris is pretty uninteresting because the game doesn't have and fundamentally doesn't support anything like having catch up mechanics or even really working together much so most of the time weaker nations have no purpose and are pretty much irrelevant as anything but an income source. And I'm not sure how you can make interacting with them interesting without some fundamental shifts to how stellaris works.
My first reaction was, "More external diplomacy despite people asking for internal diplomacy since the game was released? Lol, okay." I did see some people who suggested that there may be some internal diplomacy focus in the free patch, and it's too early to really know much, but I'm hoping for something like that.
I'm sure I'll end up getting the DLC regardless, but this doesn't seem to offer a lot to me as someone who likes to primarily play isolationists. If it gives stuff to others though, more power to them.
Post by: Putnam on March 20, 2022, 06:26:59 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on March 20, 2022, 07:43:47 pm
Post by: Telgin on March 20, 2022, 11:24:46 pm
Post by: axiomsofdominion on March 21, 2022, 04:38:23 pm
Post by: Telgin on March 24, 2022, 10:52:06 am
I like that they're expanding the holdings concept from the way branch offices worked with megacorporations, and I find myself oddly enticed by the foreign aid holding, since I've run a few games where I was the only advanced species in a galaxy of primitives that I enlightened.
I still usually play isolationists so this isn't giving me a ton of new stuff for most of my games, but it does look like it should be a step in the right direction for many players. I'm curious to see what they do about making integration harder, if anything, since as one commenter pointed out if you can still easily force subjects to be integrated then it remains the dominant meta to get around the stupid pop growth system.
I was also pleasantly surprised to learn that in my current game I actually got the Prethoryn Scourge instead of the Unbidden somehow. They still spawned early, which makes me guess that researching jump drives must just enable the crisis early and give some bonus to the Unbidden showing up, but since I was expecting the Unbidden at 01/01/2400 I was mostly ready.
50 years later and they've eaten one of the awakened empires that started the War in Heaven, so I guess I can thank them for ending that disaster of an event that usually means I just get to 2500 and call the game done instead of getting a victory screen since I have zero interest in personally conquering 100 planets to make the war end.
I continue to be frustrated at how useless titans are too. Strangely, I managed to actually get 6 titans up to veteran status through decisive battles with the scourge, but after playing a session last night it seemed like I lost a titan in every engagement despite overpowering the scourge fleets almost 2:1. At 5x, the crisis ships just do so much damage that if they start shooting at a titan it just evaporates. And titans like to charge to the front of the engagement despite having perdition beams...
Post by: Mini on March 24, 2022, 07:36:59 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on March 24, 2022, 07:45:45 pm
The details from today's dev diary look pretty cool: Link (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/stellaris-dev-diary-247-new-ways-to-rule.1516799/)
Ah, man, I saw this but forgot to toss my unasked for opinions into the void, so here we go.
I think a lot of this is cool stuff, especially holdings getting expanded. Customizable subsidies and tributes is a bit worry though since although it could, in theory, be a cool feature, in reality stellaris is a fairly snowbally game where relatively small things will, over time, come out to massive differences. As cool as it'd be to spend resources to uplift an ai underling, it's just going to make our sum total much weaker later on then if I just looted them for all they are worth and put those resources into building up my own empire to make enough power to work for the both of us. It's sorta a shame because I can see how cool it COULD be, if the game was less based on constant growth and snowballing, but it's going to be really held back by those issues. Also a lack of differentiation between empires, if there were significant differences in the capabilities of empires this would be a cool way to exploit or work together with others. Imagine a research heavy feudal empire where the empire on top gave research a vassal specialized in food production in exchange for food, and to a mining vassal for minerals, and such. But that's not really how stellaris works.
Post by: Telgin on March 25, 2022, 07:30:46 am
If you put a carrier computer on your titans I've found they will hang very far back, and also has the effect (I consider it a benefit, but it definitely hinders sneaking around) that your fleets will engage at a much longer range.
I've been meaning to try this but keep forgetting to, since it felt like the computers made little practical difference and everything ends up in a knife fight with artillery anyway. Do you put carrier computers on the other ships in the fleet with the titan, or leave them with other computers? Do they actually fly ahead and screen the titan if you do that?
Post by: Mini on March 25, 2022, 06:14:06 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on March 25, 2022, 06:30:30 pm
Post by: Culise on March 25, 2022, 10:41:39 pm
The issue with computers in vanilla, assuming they're still unchanged, is that they only define maximum distances. Ships won't fall back to keep the range open if the enemy is set to close to shorter distances than they are set to engage at. However, for screens, they should continue moving in to engage at their own preferred range while the titan remains back if their configured range is shorter than the titan; this just won't matter as much outside the opening volleys once the enemy ships mix in. I'm also not sure offhand how weapons targeting is determined beyond the basic "shield-bonus weapons target ships with active shields first, armor-bonus weapons target ships with exposed armor first, etc.," so I'm not sure how long they'll keep providing ablative armor to the titan either.If you put a carrier computer on your titans I've found they will hang very far back, and also has the effect (I consider it a benefit, but it definitely hinders sneaking around) that your fleets will engage at a much longer range.
I've been meaning to try this but keep forgetting to, since it felt like the computers made little practical difference and everything ends up in a knife fight with artillery anyway. Do you put carrier computers on the other ships in the fleet with the titan, or leave them with other computers? Do they actually fly ahead and screen the titan if you do that?
Post by: Rolan7 on August 07, 2022, 12:31:52 pm
The game really pushes you into going independent sooner or later though. Meh.
I'm mostly here to share a somewhat wacky situation. I loaded up Clan Snek Cobra, my Mechwarrior-inspired Lost Colony of Human Barbaric Despoilers. Lost Colony sorta bites, but it's flavorful. What I wasn't expecting was to meet... the Commonwealth of Man?! And they don't recognize me at all, none of the special flavor text or "you're not a xeno :)" bonus. Fair enough, I cooperate with them anyway and we're almost allies (despite their xenophobia and my significant Barbaric Despoilers malus).
Then the Galactic Community forms and I'm reunited with Sol, the UNE!! ...They don't recognize us either. kinda rude. They also have two large specialized vassal states in 2232, and are the only Advanced Empire.
I'll know more with more intel, but my current theory: The Commonwealth spawned, spawning the UNE for them (overriding me :'(). Then the game tried to spawn a vassal-origin civ and chose the only Advanced Empire, the UNE, spawning in 1-2 more vassal states for the UNE.
I have no idea whether the UNE properly recognize the Commonwealth of Man, heh. The end result is a very human galaxy map. The UNE hates my authoritarian-militarist guts though, so it's a good thing they and their vassals are on the other side of the galaxy.
Current plan: Unite with the Commonwealth to bring a reckoning on Sol! They tossed us through wormholes to die, and now claim the moral high ground? We will cut out their rot!
I watched Star Trek ToS: Seedship recently, and as a MW clan my leader is Il-Khan. Fun coincidence. Fine excuse to go genetic-ascension for once~
Post by: Iceblaster on August 07, 2022, 03:48:24 pm
Post by: Telgin on August 07, 2022, 04:16:59 pm
I guess most people probably don't play to get the victory screen, especially as a vassal, so it probably doesn't come up often.
Post by: Telgin on October 06, 2022, 09:58:15 am
I tried it on commodore difficulty and 10x crisis mode, which I figured would be a decent step up in challenge since that's what level I usually play on and each crisis is stronger than the last wave. The game doesn't say how much and I can't find it online, but it looked like it went from about 10x to 18x to 27x, which if you factor in commodore boosting the difficulty some implies it's probably a 50% increase in multiplier per wave.
You still get a random crisis first so I was hoping I'd get the Contingency first since they massively boosted the value of relics from the crises and the Contingency core lets you build 2 of each megastructure. Getting the Contingency first (and thus weakest) plus the ability to build two science nexuses, two matter decompressors and two strategic coordination centers would have been excellent.
Instead, surprise surprise, I got the Unbidden first because you usually do. To my utter shock, an AI empire sniped their dimensional portal almost immediately and handicapped them, meaning they were trivial to deal with. Unfortunately, that AI empire also got the relic. I let them go for a while in the hopes they'd kill a lot of AI pops and improve performance, but they seemed to refuse to attack planets so I finished them off. Next came the Prethoryn scourge, whose fleets were at 1.6 million power each and a bit more frightening. They did attack and destroy 71 planets in the end, which somehow did not improve performance of the game at all, so by 2645 or so I finally killed them off.
Then the Contingency spawned. Getting them last was the worst case scenario, and I feared they'd be unbeatable. To my surprise their fleets were only 2.7 million power each (6.6 million for the system defender fleets), and by switching to penetrating weapons I was able to defeat their fleets with acceptable losses.
I think my biggest problem with this overall is that I'm pretty sure I hate the War in Heaven now. I'm almost sure that the fleets flying around the galaxy are the real cause of the lag, not pops, and by 2660 it still has not ended. I'm leaving some of the Contingency alone instead of finishing them off in the hopes that they'll destroy the remaining awakened empire, but I fear it would take until 2800 at this point so I'll probably just finish them off and live with getting no victory screen.
Post by: pisskop on October 06, 2022, 10:07:31 am
I do know that if the species you're playing does not have the exact same traits -and potentially in the same order- and the exact portrait used, the game will not recognize the species is the same.It seems to recognize that two various degrees of custom human I use are the same species when both factions are used. They use the same portrait, and have one shared trait. The one with the smaller pop seems to be a subsect of the one with the larger.
.
I got a little turned off after the game dragged out my purification victory. I had taken over half the galaxy before I decided 'freak it, I already overpower them individually, lets do become the crisis'.
That was just a timesink.
Post by: MorleyDev on October 09, 2022, 10:44:16 pm
I do know that if the species you're playing does not have the exact same traits -and potentially in the same order- and the exact portrait used, the game will not recognize the species is the same.
Same portrait and same name is enough to make them be treated as subspecies of the same species, at least with Human it works like that. I've generated a Human Empire-only galaxy before that way.
Post by: Grim Portent on October 10, 2022, 12:26:07 pm
Killed everyone who wasn't a Fallen Empire by the mid 2300s (800 stars, rolled low on random number of empires,) but shortly before I finished the last few races off the Xenophile FE woke up, in response to me being declared the crisis by the Galactic Community I think. They didn't do anything until after I had finished eating the young races, but I was completely powerless to stop them from rolling over me afterwards. The Unbidden showed up shortly before my final worlds fell, but the FE was able to crush them with no difficulty.
Post by: Robsoie on October 10, 2022, 01:05:55 pm
- the expansion phase, discovering new systems, new anomalies, new escavation site, new stuff, new events happening, colonizing worlds, etc.. most interesting and player involved phase of the game
- the empire consolidation phase, every empires are now mostly made, you're starting to build up your frontiers, your first war is usually starting (from your doing or from an AI neighbour) , as at that phase most empires are roughly equals that first war is rather interesting as things can go both way rather fast. Events are happening very rarely now
- the "we're just waiting for the crisis" phase, probably the most boring phase of the game, and unfortunately a rather long phase, events are nearly never happening anymore, empires wars are now a joke as when it comes to AI vs AI it's mostly stalemate after stalemate, and on you vs AI either you did badly in the consolidation phase and you can't do much other than waiting, or you've be doing great and you are basically steamrolling your previous enemies without an interesting challenge.
- the crisis phase , finally after so many time something good happens, usually you defeat it by yourself if you did good so far as the AI is rather bad at big wars and the game end score happens after some time. The crisis is usually an interesting part of the game with some sense of urgency, depending on where the crisis start of course (as when it happens on the other side of the galaxy , well...)
So far to try to improve the boring time, i'm using specifically those :
More Event Mod (of course for more possible events)
Dynamic Political Event Mod (so at least sometime unexpected revolts or other things can happen with your systems)
Guilli's Planet Modifiers and Feature (there are more events in it)
But that does not help much for the "we're just waiting for the crisis" very long part of the game, is there a mod that may make this phase of the game more interesting ?
edit : maybe i'll have to play with the mid game and end game sliders when i'll start a new game, maybe this will reduce a lot the boring phase duration
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 11, 2022, 09:30:33 am
Post by: Grim Portent on October 11, 2022, 09:40:45 am
Really after the early game when I got boxed in by a Fanatical Purifier I haven't had much to do. Even then there wasn't much except waiting until my fleets surpassed theirs and then rolling through their territory.
I think CK has a better passive game, there's always people to schmooze, kids to teach, pilgrimages, feasts and hunts. Not all of it is interesting, but there is at least something to do that actually matters. The only routine event in Stellaris is the caravaneers, and I actually resent them for slowing down the game in it's mindless periods with their popup.
EDIT: Also, does anyone else find it weird that being Galactic Emperor doesn't have a bit more oomph to it? Like making all empires psuedo-vassal states or something. It doesn't even boost your victory score IIRC. The bonus fleet is nice, but it's not actually all that interesting in itself.
Post by: pisskop on October 11, 2022, 09:56:49 am
I think I found a number I like - 6-13 with 1-3 FE. And while I like the games more random placement of empires because it adds character to starts I worry that I'm smothering the ai
Post by: Telgin on October 11, 2022, 10:00:58 am
I rarely play smaller maps so I don't have preferences on them. My last experience with a game that ran until 2700 until I was able to defeat all 3 crises is making me reconsider using smaller maps for performance reasons though...
Post by: Grim Portent on October 11, 2022, 10:27:08 am
Smaller Galaxies tend to wind up either being really hard or really easy, but the main difference is just that it takes so much longer to do anything in a big Galaxy and everyone starts ganging up on you if you want to play an evil run, which gets more tedious to the point of being unfun.
Post by: Robsoie on October 11, 2022, 12:21:24 pm
Got the contigency crisis on my current game while playing the stock diplomacy-oriented United Nations of Earth.
What followed were some interesting desesperate battles to try to limit their fast expansion inside of my territory (as their fleets were stronger than mine or any AI fleet), with trying to replace lost ships as quickly as i could.
Fortunately once i could focus every guns at the other side of a wormhole that was entrance to the heart of my empire, and just getting the "Defender of the Galaxy" perk the Space Skynet wanabees were stopped right in their tracks.
Then it was a good time that the Cybrex spawned right near my empire on the bottom and that helped in major way as i could get then on the offensive while the Cybrex were fighting the biggest of the Contigency fleets inside my space.
That along finally getting a very lot of Battleships online achieved to give my empire the upper hand on my side of the galaxy and we kicked some toaster sorry bottoms rather hard after that.
The most hilarious was that in the middle of the early Contingency progression through everyone's empires, the 2 other guys that were part of the Federation i joined decided it was a good time to vote for declaring war on an enemy empire (that was slightly less trashed by the Contingency as the time). Priorities guys, priorities... :D
Post by: Telgin on October 12, 2022, 09:06:05 am
I still remember that the first time I got the crisis it was the Contingency, and I was totally unprepared. I think I had about 30k of fleet power at the time and saw I was up against 80k fleets... and it was time to get good, fast. I managed to win but it was a real struggle at first.
Post by: Robsoie on October 12, 2022, 02:00:28 pm
But once they are done with their initial attack, they will expand a bit and to do so they will stretch their fleets out.
And starting from then you can then destroy those weaker assault fleets one by one (even more easier after the Cybrex helpers are spawning, as after their spawn all the Cybrex super strong fleets are at the same location and will then carve a path for you until their fleets will start to separate).
As you should have researched enough to meet their firepower anyways (as Stellaris like in all 4X research is super important to get ahead of everything), and by the time you reach their various nests (the "Sterilization Hubs") you can focus all your ships on one to take out the super strong defender of each hub world without that much problem, especially if you have arc emitters weapons that absolutely murder Contingency ships.
After taking out a Sterilization Hub, all you have to do is heal/replace losses then go focus all your ships to the next nest, repeat until all the nests are dead and the Contingency is finally dead after you destroy their homewolrd.
But it also shows something that is still very bad in Stellaris : orbital bombardment.
Because to take out a Sterilization Hub, there is only one way : orbital bombardment, and in Stellaris orbital bombing simply takes forever to achieve anything, and even worse, regardless of sending a couple of ships or a thousand to bomb a planet from orbit it will take the same ridiculously long amount of time.
In fact i think it took me more time to wait for a Sterilization Hub to be fully bombed (at least it is considered dead at "only" 50% of devastation, but it takes insane amount of time to reach that number) than to fight back and capture systems during the whole crisis.
This is made worse by the terribly bad AI that does not even try to send his remnant ship to come to the rescue of its own currently bombed world, it's basically a very boring wait unfortunately totally uneventfull.
Post by: Telgin on October 12, 2022, 03:18:11 pm
Some people use colossi on them, and it's probably faster. I've never taken the perk so I've never used one, and thus don't know if it's faster and practical to do. I do know that every other major patch breaks something with the Contingency where using a colossus on their hubs leads to a destroyed world that the game doesn't realize is destroyed and thus won't let the crisis end. I've seen fixes for that in the patch notes multiple times.
Post by: Eric Blank on October 13, 2022, 11:08:55 pm
Advanced civs can make or break the game for you. Especially if you don't have any friends.
Post by: LoSboccacc on October 14, 2022, 05:37:01 am
Post by: pisskop on October 14, 2022, 05:41:00 am
I've never had to face total annihilation though
Post by: Eric Blank on October 14, 2022, 02:22:07 pm
Post by: LoSboccacc on October 16, 2022, 02:44:12 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
has this happened to anyone?
Post by: Telgin on October 16, 2022, 03:28:36 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 16, 2022, 04:27:34 pm
Where are these coming from? Is this normal? Kinda looks like they might be from some DLC that I don't have.
The only mod I'm running is legendary worlds, and it doesn't appear to have anything to do with it.
Post by: pisskop on October 16, 2022, 04:32:47 pm
Likewise for Necromancers, its dlc and has a few other reqs - though I dont recall offhand what the reqs for master crafters are. probably materialism at least
If youre not playing with those DLC then youve found a way to luck into those regardless
Post by: E. Albright on October 16, 2022, 04:45:56 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on October 17, 2022, 06:20:36 pm
It's not really been going great. I made friends with the civ that saved me and another one on my other flank, and reclaimed everything that I had lost, and pushed to the center of the galaxy (I started way out on the edge, with my homewold connected by a single hyperlink to the galaxy at large). But all my civ accounts for at this point is that one blue wedge like a slice of pie through the southwest corner of the galaxy, with a measly three habitable worlds to its name. I had abysmal fleet power, economic activity and technological progress. My friends to the north got conquered by another civ north of them i got dragged into that war through our defensive pact but never saw any combat, so I buddied up with the conquerors for good measure, and then the civ that saved me from extinction subjugated two other neighboring civs on their side. Now these two powers rule 60% of the galaxy, before the southeastern guy subjugated a fourth civ on the opposite side, who still hate me but can't do anything about it because daddy loves me. So I'm kinda safe.
But I'm stuck, and for a hundred and fifty years can barely eek by and in every way im still abysmally weak compared to the rest of the galaxy. I built three habitats and gain a single additional colony for my own species from an anomaly event. But migration treaties let me build four more colonies, three on tomb worlds with an avian species that is radiation resistant. But with poor tech I can't advance far at all.
But then one of the fallen empires, my saving friends neighbor, contacts me to build a black site, and then to borrow a scientist. Given im in no shape to piss them off I agree. They open their borders to me and behind their territory, cut off from everyone else, are five systems left unclaimed. So I take them, gain a new colony and two new habitats over valuable planets. Long way from home, though.
Apparently my savior civ thinks they're tough shit, because they pissed off this guy and they declared war. I figured they were screwed, but amazingly half the navy in the galaxy can put a fallen empire on the defensive, and they end the war claiming one of their systems and losing nothing. But at this point the fallen empire has had enough of me not wandering through their space in the last twenty years and shuts off the border. My little colony is cut off from the galaxy at large permanently. After a second war they take back their planet from my saviors, but before thirty pops from their species migrate to some of my worlds.
The other guys in the north have gone to war a few times with another big empire bordering mine, another friendly civ to me, but have only made a little headway in taking systems from them. And then they also piss off the other fallen empire in the galaxy and are currently getting their asses handed to them. This is why I haven't signed any more defensive pacts... absolutely agree to have them guarantee my independence though, love that.
I can't get anywhere anymore though, because my tech development and economy are so weak compared to everyone else, I'm permanently playing catch up. I've got another 150 years to go, and then all three endgame crisis will trigger in succession. Either I will die with my buddies, or they will save me yet again, because I have no hope of defending myself from anything at this point, I'm stuck in a rut.
Post by: pisskop on October 17, 2022, 06:23:49 pm
And role playing your civ, even lightly, only adds to that.
Post by: LoSboccacc on October 18, 2022, 05:49:57 am
Post by: Robsoie on October 18, 2022, 08:58:26 am
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/stellaris-dev-diary-271-ready-fight.1546912/
It seems they're focusing on making battle more diversified instead of "make battleship with artillery to destroy everything from anyone that has not made exclusively battleships with artillery" , so without war what would be the point of doing all that ship rebalancing role.
Post by: pisskop on October 18, 2022, 09:05:23 am
Post by: Great Order on October 18, 2022, 12:14:40 pm
Every time I play it they demand I turn into a prospectorum with insane taxes (60% research, basic and advanced goods), and in the rare event I have enough influence to pay the 500+ cost to say no, they'll come back a few months later and demand the exact same thing. They keep doing it until you literally cannot deny them.
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 19, 2022, 07:54:04 am
The Imperial Fiefdom start's lost any fun it had. Your overlord will do everything they can to fuck you over and, worse, they've got unlimited influence to do it with.Isn't there an event where the overlord implodes?
Every time I play it they demand I turn into a prospectorum with insane taxes (60% research, basic and advanced goods), and in the rare event I have enough influence to pay the 500+ cost to say no, they'll come back a few months later and demand the exact same thing. They keep doing it until you literally cannot deny them.
Post by: Great Order on October 19, 2022, 08:18:20 am
The issue is that until then, you're giving the overlord over half of every resource AND paying extra to expand on top of it.
Post by: pisskop on October 19, 2022, 08:21:55 am
Post by: Great Order on October 19, 2022, 11:02:01 am
Post by: pisskop on October 19, 2022, 11:06:03 am
but I supposed it rough they damand your habitable systems and charge more for expansion. It's supposed to be both a good and bad start, that offers story, challenge, and flavor.
I suppose if they implode you should be able to gobble them up?
Post by: Great Order on October 19, 2022, 11:18:54 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on October 19, 2022, 05:25:13 pm
game could have explained better (I joined the war from a federation proposal if that matters)
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 19, 2022, 06:11:56 pm
Taking the ascension perk to raid planets was also helpful. No matter how dumb the war my overlord dragged me into I could still pull a profit from stolen pops even if I couldn't get actual territory from the war.
Post by: Lidku on October 19, 2022, 07:54:06 pm
Post by: Great Order on October 19, 2022, 07:58:00 pm
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 19, 2022, 07:59:15 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on October 19, 2022, 08:33:48 pm
Post by: Telgin on October 19, 2022, 09:35:57 pm
One thing I saw someone suggest on their forums was to add repeatable techs or some other empire-specific modifiers to increase combat width, and I think I could get behind that. At least it would make the 6K armies less of a Warhammer 40K story of endless war.
Post by: LoSboccacc on October 20, 2022, 12:44:40 am
I dunno how you *would* make ground invasions more interesting.
Just plain copy of distant world universe
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 20, 2022, 07:26:39 am
I dunno how you *would* make ground invasions more interesting.Instead of just being a series of timers you have to overcome, just add more meaningful choice into the whole mix. So planet defenders get access to things like defences they can place on the planet that can shoot at bombarding ships, launch missiles or fighter craft, where you place your defending armies is more important than how many you have, and the attacker can then have more organic choices to strike (e.g. this industrial district is too well defended, so let me make my planetfall on this farming district and move out from there)
Post by: pisskop on October 20, 2022, 07:30:18 am
Post by: Robsoie on October 20, 2022, 08:59:56 am
Post by: Rolan7 on October 20, 2022, 07:02:40 pm
I've had a lot of false-starts thinking about this but I think armies ought to use the same "naval" capacity produced by soldier jobs. Conquering a lategame stronghold planet should cost more than the couple dozen energy upkeep on a massed army (and the one-time investment of a few thousand minerals). It should be a trade off of army investment vs orbital devastation- most of which is already implemented, if poorly balanced!
As a sidenote, I never build barracks/strongholds. I get all my naval capacity from anchorages. I think the existence of anchorages should be entirely scrapped. I'm not saying they're overpowered, mostly that I don't understand the fluff of a civilization with NO soldier class but a galaxy-dominating navy, oh and also as much ground army as I care to make.
Going too far: I'd like a "mobilization" policy which sets the number of soldier jobs per barracks. These soldier pops would be specialists, partially because I think it's accurate... but also so that demobilization leaves a bunch of specialists ready for tech jobs *or unemployment/relocation*. There are multiple mechanics for handling such pops, I think that's an interesting and fluffy thing to deal with post-war. If you even demobilize - militarist empires should get unity from them regardless.
I also think it'd be cool if having excess naval capacity/soldiers could aid in boarding enemy ships to neutralize/capture, potentially as a counter to artillery battleship spam, but I haven't nailed that down and I guess the devs are already rebalancing that with the new ship categories.
Post by: Rolan7 on October 20, 2022, 07:11:43 pm
Certain techs would interact with this interestingly. Clone soldiers would allow my current empire type with no soldier class, only short-lived Republic Commandos. I would make the xenomorph tech an atrocity, like a lower-tech Colossus option, where it wipes out the planet's population... though it spawns many low-morale defense armies based on the planet's civilian population.
If I'm at the lathe of heaven, that could even include a chain like the Synth Rebellion which could potentially lead to a new empire with the clone-soldier civic from Humanoids pack.
Post by: Telgin on October 20, 2022, 08:43:29 pm
As a sidenote, I never build barracks/strongholds. I get all my naval capacity from anchorages.
This is just a small part of your post, but for a while I've been building fortress habitats in my chokepoint systems as almost impossible to dislodge speed bumps, and this made me suddenly question if what I was doing made sense.
The speed bump part is logical I think. By the end game these habitats can have over 5K defense army strength pretty easily.
But... soldiers don't give a ton of naval cap. Usually I end up with 4-5 of these stations and I think they end up contributing something like 200-300 naval cap total, which I suddenly realize is probably not worth it for the number of pops it requires. Those pops would be much more efficient in labs or foundries, much like how a lot of people just turn off clerk jobs entirely. The current crappy pop growth system makes this very attractive late game since you really want useful pops when it takes a planet over 10 years to grow a new one.
I've never disabled clerks because it felt like an exploit, but now I'm wondering about that again too...
Post by: Rolan7 on October 20, 2022, 09:34:08 pm
I say that when it's my primary/only source of naval cap.
Post by: Robsoie on October 21, 2022, 05:49:36 am
The giant amount of soldier defense it had forced me to build an insane amount of transport ships, took me way too long waiting time to get my transport fleet on par with the defense soldier power.
Post by: Great Order on October 21, 2022, 06:26:08 am
Post by: pisskop on October 21, 2022, 06:27:57 am
The barrack spam method only really works for chokepoints. Fill it with strongholds, build a shield generator, if you've got anything else to minimise bombardment damage then that helps. By the time they're invading it ten years have passed.From what Space Scifi game franchise have I heard this before, hmmmmm?
Post by: Telgin on October 21, 2022, 08:57:39 am
Again: Anchorages, naval capacity from starbases, should be removed entirely.
I say that when it's my primary/only source of naval cap.
I think I can get behind this. I'd rather see soldiers give way more naval cap and that be the source of it, even if anchorages make some sense on a logical level. Maybe you should need some minimum number of anchorages too... but that's getting messy.
Really, I think it highlights a problem with how space constructions give free resources without needing pops to work them. That strongly incentivizes you to use space constructions for things wherever possible since pops are a rare resource. I don't think Stellaris could really be changed to support pops in mining stations or starbases, but Stellaris 2 maybe should consider it if they ever make one.
Post by: LoSboccacc on October 22, 2022, 03:32:44 pm
Post by: Great Order on October 22, 2022, 05:14:29 pm
Post by: Telgin on October 22, 2022, 08:10:00 pm
It's not an impossible system but I'm sure it would lead to more exploits.
Post by: LoSboccacc on October 23, 2022, 03:15:27 am
Post by: Eric Blank on October 30, 2022, 11:47:01 pm
Post by: Immortal-D on November 07, 2022, 04:07:06 pm
Origin - Cave Dweller: Minerals from jobs +15%, Empire size from pops +10%, Biological pop growth -20% (oof)
Natural Story Tellers: Unity +20%
Creative Spark: Research from jobs +5%
Communal: Pop housing use -10%
Melancholy: Happiness -5%
Wasteful: Consumer goods upkeep +10%
Militarist (claims, rivalries, fire rate), Materialist (robot upkeep, physics & engineering), Fanatic Industrialist (minerals, energy, districts, -habitability) ; Masterful Crafters (goods into trade & engineering), Military Industry (ton of bonuses at the cost of upkeep), Imperialism (bonuses to claims and vassals at the cost of border friction).
I could swap out Communal & Creative Spark for Rapid Breeders to help offset the growth penalty, but I feel this setup fits the theme near-perfectly. First ascensions will likely be Expansion - Interstellar Dominion and Supremacy - Shared Destiny.
Post by: pisskop on January 05, 2023, 01:07:48 pm
I've made what I feel is a pretty good batch of empires with nice themes to follow for some moderate RP. 16 so far, the Dragon Empire, the empire of golems that are basically Gun Jack, the lusty Horse people and their servile Oxen, Morganites and Yang, and the Space Mermen Elves....
This last one, the space not-elves, are so far my favorite to play. They - accidentally on my part, play perfectly into a rapid expansion that rolls fairly well into a reasonably balanced jack-of-all-trades. With about 21 or so empires spawning on a large map, you bump into another empire sooner or later, and the large trade income they start with is good for spamming science vessels and Rexxing right into them. Whether the AI settles their second planet is luck dependent, sometimes they start as an advanced ai and your job is much harder, but the general idea is to snipe their homeworld, clean up the mess, and then consolidate and repeat. They're aquatic anglers with xenophobe, spiritual, and egalitarian.
I've been thinking about the conflict poised by it, and I think Elves represent a pretty good candidate for what xenophobic egalitarianism looks like. Trying to RP has been rough, and I've been thinking about how advanced technology would complicate it even further, but it comes down to agenda. We're protecting nature, not life. We open our hearts to all life, but we don't trust all sapience to uphold the tenets. I actually think the devs did a reasonable job of trying to include a flexible system of governance, that still allows people to largely disregard it if they wanted to.
I still havent completed a game, once it loses its 'spark' I tend to restart. In my last game I took out an empire, paid the marauders to help me push through a chokepoint into another civ and spun off their capital as a vassal, and was just dowed by a third as I was getting home. I'm just responding to the aggression they showed me. Fun so far.
Post by: Telgin on January 05, 2023, 03:45:18 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on January 05, 2023, 04:41:10 pm
A copy-pastable code would be swell, even if only for vanilla empires (seems like it'd be easy to support custom traits/etc though). I used to play coop fairly often and I'd like to some of the silly or interesting empires my friends & bro made. In fact... Oh! I'm able to load up those MP save games! I'd have to transcribe the empires by hand I guess, but it's nice I have them.
The creations I've held on to are:
Precursor Antique Shop: spiritualist Xenophile relic-world rocks (coop mp game where we all went lithoid, I played support)
Panaxala Trade Coalition: egalitarian Xenophile voidborn plants, frens with fronds (yay egalitarian and coop mp)
And non-MP:
Craftworld Eldar: militant Spiritualist voidborn elves with Reanimators, a force-spawn for funsies
Chozo Mandate: egalitarian Materialist mechanists. obviously use the spacesuit-bird portrait and beeline synthetic ascension
Clan Snek Cobra: auth Militarist lost-colony. Maybe my most indulgent joke. Only auth in order to take Nihilistic Acquisition in order to dodge the empire pop scaling- runs social welfare, species equality, and loooots of duelists. Also an excuse to take gene-modding ascension rather than synthetic.
I flubbed that Chozo run by taking the Flesh Is Weak perk which now locks you *out* of synthetic ascension :-[ I should set some of these can-spawns to force-spawns though and see what the AI does with them.
And maybe rebuild an old empire I lost... egalitarian xenophobe butterflies, one of the only times I seriously used slavery. Quite awful, rather effective, they made interesting NPCs.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 06, 2023, 09:46:25 am
Some day I should try creating enough empires that I can force spawn so that I get galaxies made up of empires of my design. I gather that a lot of players do this, and it's a cool idea. Right now I only have 3 set up that way, but I usually play on less crowded maps of about 10 empires so I wouldn't have to make too many.I did something like that. I made a 'human diaspora' custom setting using mods and force-spawned empires where 99% of the empires in the galaxy were human, post-human, or human origin. By that I mean some were robot gestalt assimilators with human cyborgs, some were robot gestalts pampering humans, one was a hive mind made of humans, etc. One was an alien race that had enslaved a human subpopulation. It was fun enacting a sort of human reunification war to reconnect all of humanity.
Post by: MorleyDev on January 06, 2023, 01:02:50 pm
Use the Fatherland mod (https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=2389164674) and Planetary Diversities habitats (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1878751971).
Make an empty galaxy (no other Empires but yourself)
Play as humans with the Doomsday Origin
Not leave the Sol sector until the Earth explodes.
You have until Earth explodes to research and colonise the various planetary bodies of the Sol System, and then have to then spread out and reuinite humanity.
Post by: pisskop on January 06, 2023, 01:20:59 pm
For my current batch of critters when playing the space mer-elves I get the rogue servitors with a ringworld start and the democratic federation turtles and the bandit elephant necromancers and one of either the pacificist psychic buddhist monks or the xenophobic technocrat squids.
Adding in a few randomly generated empires helps a little, and adds in either a few civics I dont care much for/seem to stereotyped or are generic hedemonistic species which helps flavor the galaxy. Both I dont much want to make a civ for and have a niche. Like necrophages, are there really more than one kind of cthulu/animorph brain eaters?
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 06, 2023, 02:09:22 pm
Another fun one on a similar theme:How do you make an empty galaxy with no other empires? I though a certain minimum number would spawn regardless?
Use the Fatherland mod (https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=2389164674) and Planetary Diversities habitats (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1878751971).
Make an empty galaxy (no other Empires but yourself)
Play as humans with the Doomsday Origin
Not leave the Sol sector until the Earth explodes.
You have until Earth explodes to research and colonise the various planetary bodies of the Sol System, and then have to then spread out and reuinite humanity.
Post by: Telgin on January 06, 2023, 02:19:58 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on January 07, 2023, 11:56:47 am
The problem isbthat despite claims to the contrary first contaxts still fail to acknowledge belonging to the same speciesSome day I should try creating enough empires that I can force spawn so that I get galaxies made up of empires of my design. I gather that a lot of players do this, and it's a cool idea. Right now I only have 3 set up that way, but I usually play on less crowded maps of about 10 empires so I wouldn't have to make too many.I did something like that. I made a 'human diaspora' custom setting using mods and force-spawned empires where 99% of the empires in the galaxy were human, post-human, or human origin. By that I mean some were robot gestalt assimilators with human cyborgs, some were robot gestalts pampering humans, one was a hive mind made of humans, etc. One was an alien race that had enslaved a human subpopulation. It was fun enacting a sort of human reunification war to reconnect all of humanity.
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 12, 2023, 08:18:25 am
Another fun one on a similar theme:I'm combining this idea with the A Cradle at the End of Time (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2914583150) mod to replicate a pocket of humanity that survived the Become The Crisis ending and is now rebuilding the galaxy. No idea if it will work.
Use the Fatherland mod (https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=2389164674) and Planetary Diversities habitats (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1878751971).
Make an empty galaxy (no other Empires but yourself)
Play as humans with the Doomsday Origin
Not leave the Sol sector until the Earth explodes.
You have until Earth explodes to research and colonise the various planetary bodies of the Sol System, and then have to then spread out and reuinite humanity.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 12, 2023, 08:40:44 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Current status: As if to spite me, about half the galaxy vassaled-up under an auth kingdom. Reasonably friendly, but several bulwarks. It was basically them, a friendly hivemind, and a friendly megacorp (xenophobe but willing to do business).
Patience was rewarded: The hivemind launched an invasion and I struck while the kingdom was distracted, expanding my borders and striking deep to steal the overlord's home system. Whether that made a huge difference, their strength is essentially broken. I wish I could federate or pact with the hive or corp, but the downside of Scion origin is that I'm technically a vassal heh. My tech and pop lead are so great, plus Politics tradition, that I'm dominating the galactic community despite the -50% for being a vassal.
Naturally I'm forcing workers-rights legislation~ Great Project aside, I would not invade a state complying with social welfare requirements.
Post by: Telgin on January 12, 2023, 10:06:04 am
Also a little frustrating we still aren't getting internal politics, but at this point I don't think Stellaris ever will. They'd have to rework so much that that may have to wait until Stellaris 2, when / if that happens.
Also also, yet another mechanic that isolationists won't interact with, but oh well. I guess it's not as bad as playing hive minds, where like 1/3 of the game doesn't apply.
Post by: Mephansteras on January 12, 2023, 01:48:38 pm
I get limiting Machine Intelligence to the machine portraits, fine, but why the reverse?
Post by: Telgin on January 12, 2023, 01:58:44 pm
On that note, it also bugs me that there's no way to change the portrait of robots to look like organic species. I get that it's a minor thing and you can RP it however you want, but I kind of hate how the mammalian robots look and especially once I research synthetics I'd like to be able to make them look like my other species. Even if there was some indication on the portrait that they're robots, like a symbol or colored background or aura or something, that would be fine.
Post by: pisskop on January 12, 2023, 05:57:38 pm
If we're complaining, I'd like to complain about how influence is the eternal bottleneck for everything. I can't use the subterfuge mechanic at all, not only because it's at best mechanically weak, but because it costs influence to do anything. I use it passively with envoys, but even that is worthless unless you have some good codebreaking going. I suspect smaller empires can use it more because they spend less time building megastructures or expanding or claiming. It's not that I dislike there being a bottleneck, it's that it prohibits gameplay.
I'd like to see something where perhaps you have a new passive mana. In civilization IV the spying mechanic was not perfect, but it worked well enough to have some use, and it stayed out of your hair if you didnt want to engage with it. Spying is super abstract in Stellaris, so I wont get into specifics, but in general more contact through borders and diplomacy, more chances to spy. Some technologies lend themselves to spying more than others. One benefit of a xenophobe or closed society should be spy protection but not necessarily lowered offensive spying applicability. Just some system that incentivizes engaging with established mechanics. Most of the operations are nuisance stuff, so make it more accessible.
Perhaps using other kinds of mana in conjunction with influence instead of straight up influence. Hell, knowledge is a really abstract science thing, maybe some biology research can go into an operation. Larger empires generate more points, and it isnt unfair that each individual point is worth less to them than smaller ones....
I like the idea of influence in general, but the struggle is real. It costs me hundreds of influence to change a subject to integrate them, and hundreds more to actually integrate them. It's wild to think that in 2300 I still have a couple dozen unsettled stars in my back field from when I murderkilled and/or outexpanded my competition to chokepoint that stuff off.
P: and ethics! We have random leaders heading factions now. Just make some system where leaders espouse ethics based on where they are stationed or if nothing else their home planet. Let spys interact with leaders and push ethics. adding ethics attraction modifiers from spys would give us more use for spys, let peaceful builders do more, and could help us destabilize the blobs more. It also lets you have a 'defensive counterspy' job maybe, and lets you do thing anonymously.
Post by: MorleyDev on January 13, 2023, 10:33:02 am
So you control your core sector, and Sectors less, and Vassals even less so. But at each level they also get boosts in other aspects that make them desirable, so it becomes a matter of trade-offs. An unruly sector may want to push for independence but making it a Vassal placates it without losing the resource production. The further away from your core system, the greater it's desire for political autonomy.
Basically my ideal is an empty galaxy should be a political experience of managing an expanding empire that is otherwise trying to tear itself apart. And in a populated galaxy it'd be an extra challenge or aspect to going wide that needs attention that Tall doesn't need to deal with.
Post by: Telgin on January 13, 2023, 11:58:36 am
Basically my ideal is an empty galaxy should be a political experience of managing an expanding empire that is otherwise trying to tear itself apart. And in a populated galaxy it'd be an extra challenge or aspect to going wide that needs attention that Tall doesn't need to deal with.
This is what I'd like to see too. I understand it's not the game everyone wants and it adds a level of tedium and frustration, particularly for people who don't want it, but I'd like for a 4X game to support interesting play if you are the only empire in the galaxy.
I've thought about it a fair bit while trying to build my own space 4X and I came to the conclusion that this is pretty tough to pull off in a meaningful, satisfying and not extremely frustrating manner. It's similar to the problems Dwarf Fortress has in adventure mode when Toady added the new emotional states: at some point you have to decide what the player is in control of and what they aren't, and it's not always clear cut where this should begin and end.
An example of that in an internal politics rewrite would be leaders who have their own agendas. It's realistic to have a governor aspire to lead a rebellion and leave your empire, and even interesting. But it's annoying, especially if you have other problems in your empire to deal with.
A more direct example might be if the empire's leader had a personality separate from the player's. That starts to break down the meaning of who you are as the player and what you're doing, even if it's again realistic and could help to bring things like dictatorships more into line with reality where sometimes you get an idiot who inherits the throne for 100 years and derails an empire. Or you elect an idiot in a democracy who ruins it for their political term. It's realistic but nobody is going to want to deal with that as a player.
Simply turning sectors into pseudo vassals with no special core sector is probably what I'd vote for. They could have different levels of contribution to the empire, could potential revolt, and may have political conflict over ethics even. It would be interesting if sectors could be treated as mini empires like vassals in that regard, where ethics drift was a thing you had to actually manage.
Post by: Great Order on January 15, 2023, 01:55:30 am
And give feudal empires similar stuff with noble houses rising to fill the governor space with similar mechanics, although using political intrigue to get themselves into power rather than voting. And make it available for dictatorships to emulate a proper electoral monarchy.
And make sectors a forced spawn when you have, say, two or three planets within range of one another with these empire systems.
Post by: pisskop on January 15, 2023, 02:01:40 am
Spoiler: pic (click to show/hide)
Post by: MorleyDev on January 15, 2023, 02:04:55 pm
It'd also allow for a more controllable emergence of things like Xenophillic factions wanting equal rights for xeno pops, but having them push it in the "Internal Politics" rather than purely be event-driven. And could act as another Influence sink if needed, with Influence being used in the same way Favors are in the Galactic Community.
Post by: Orb on January 16, 2023, 12:50:02 pm
Post by: MorleyDev on January 16, 2023, 10:15:09 pm
Post by: Telgin on January 19, 2023, 11:20:52 am
I'm curious how they're going to integrate it with other systems, but it seems like it might finally make espionage important if you need intel to know where cloaked fleets are. I suspect that will matter in some way, but more than likely there will just be special starbase modules or techs that allow detecting cloaked ships.
Maybe we'll get cloaking modules that have to compete with other aux slots on ships now, which would be good for variety since there isn't much in the way of choice now. Maybe specialized cloaking sensor modules too.
Post by: Mephansteras on January 19, 2023, 02:37:07 pm
Post by: pisskop on January 20, 2023, 02:33:29 pm
so rather than just having invisible ships flying around, which would be great, but a bit hard to balance.
Post by: LoSboccacc on January 21, 2023, 05:36:59 am
Yeah. Stealth is a good Meta-breaker, but it runs a high risk of just becoming the new meta that everything has to have/protect against. Hopefully it just brings in some new strategic choices to make things more interesting.
or, one decloaking module for starbase, and life proceeds as normal.
Post by: Robsoie on January 25, 2023, 06:44:06 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 25, 2023, 10:35:36 pm
Post by: Telgin on January 25, 2023, 10:38:35 pm
Then gain, you don't really lose anything by failing the mandates, so I end up just ignoring them after the early game.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 25, 2023, 10:53:23 pm
It could be a RP thing but the leader traits like "cheaper outposts" or "more research" are better for that, mechanically and fluff-ally.
Post by: Robsoie on January 26, 2023, 02:10:30 pm
And it does bode so well : that alien species auto destructed so let's elect the one that survived as our leader :D
Now for the unity point, out of using relics i don't have any more use of them as all the tradition slots and perks are filled already by now
Post by: Telgin on January 26, 2023, 03:23:04 pm
That requires that you set the planet's specialization as just "Ecumenopolis" I think, since otherwise it probably just boosts construction time for districts or whatever other useless benefits the other specializations give.
In my last few games I've gotten 2 up to level 10, but also usually don't have more than 2 or 3 ecumenopoleis since it's impossible to get them populated in the end game, especially when I'm trying to get pops on ring worlds for research.
Post by: Robsoie on January 26, 2023, 03:40:27 pm
I'm 50 years away from the end of the game, and the last crisis (i enabled all of them, but at only X1) is going to happen very soon from the reports i got.
I even pitied the Unbidden , they came to hunt our galaxy people, but unfortunately they were the 3rd crisis (as the first one i got was the Vazzuran midgame one from the More Event Mod) to happen so at that time with half of my fleet and several of my federation pals, we simply walked all over them, i guess that was a case of the hunters not knowing they were actually the preys.
Spoiler: poor Unbidden (click to show/hide)
Post by: Robsoie on February 09, 2023, 01:44:11 pm
I quickly expanded with colonization and star bases (of course limited by the ressources) and made the mistake to wanting to expand without a care of consolidating said new acquired ressources in each new system (as my goal was to keep ressource for the next starbases and making more ships).
Looks like doing this i underestimated the (lack of) logistic of my empire and ran my budget down a lot (having to constanly sell minerals to get some cash to afford to keep some consumer goods for everyone as a lot were getting negative months) , this also led to many times the productivity/research malus slowing things down even more.
This triggered the population apparently .. and led most of my colonies into getting some level of instability, things were getting rather bad, even killing (instead of observing) all the primitives populations from each world we fetched wasn't enough to make them smile again, damn.
That was probably not helped by the fact my empire reached the border of an ultra-xenophile AI that decided to declare war nearly immediately on us while i was far from ready about having a good enough fleet, instead of losing any system i acquired (when i noticed several enemy fleets with 3 times my best fleet firepower), i decided to simply admit defeat and get some time into vassalization, hoping this would buy me enough time to backstab the xenos with as much guns as i could.
People were mad about this, i could understand that being ultra-xenophobe and being vassal of a xeno empire is not an ideal situation, and so they called out the emperor for a fight, the guy was 79 years old by the way, the plan i guess was to get him killed for the people amusement and replace him with someone hopefully more competent
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Anyways, all was good, except that the budget was getting worse and worse , as effort to restabilize things with consolidating systems and colonies ressource wasn't enough (and so much dissent also gave a lot of production malus) that unstability reached critical mass and the throneworld revolted, with a lot of colonies teaming up with those bastards.
My empire simply got fracked over with a big empire getting birthed in the middle of it
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
ok,the good thing (at least i thought) was that there was no treasury, the ressources were at an all time low, and there was no way they could be a threat before a long while, so let's send my fleet to destroy the 2 star bases that are now part of the traitors empire, this way they will never get an opportunity to build ships before i am ready to launch a counter attack to take back what's mine.
... only to notice that Stellaris revolt mechanic will automatically spawn ,out of nothing, for the traitors a full fleet (yeah 2 times the firepower my fleets had) of the best ship type you researched with the best possible weapons you had researches, regardless of how much time it would have taken anyone to build it, or regardless that there's no way they could afford it in the condition they were (every ressources in the red, and some in negative).
sigh, that's going to be even more of a trainwreck than i thought :D
Post by: Telgin on February 09, 2023, 02:40:22 pm
On a different note, today's dev diary outlined a lot of cool improvements to minor artifacts. You can now find minable deposits of them for a constant supply, and they've added new buildings and starbase modules that use them to produce effects like on-demand system space storms that nullify ship shields. That could be used to great effect against the AI by using purpose-built defense platforms.
Post by: Robsoie on February 09, 2023, 02:55:50 pm
Oh, and it seems the game really wants to give all the chance to revolted worlds (unless it's one of the mods) because as my current (until i'll backstab them) overlord came to help my difficult situation, after conquering back half of my ex-empire, i ran into
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
It had roughly 10 times the firepower of my overlord fleet , and 20 times mine (as said we're still in relatively early game).
And it was not even the end, as once it started attacking both my overlord and my fleet that were clearing a traitor space station, for reason i don't know its firepower had reached 100K
Ok, that's probably a way for Stellaris to tell me : i don't want you to win this time
:D
Post by: pisskop on February 11, 2023, 05:08:56 pm
Homeslice is letting me take the stragglers of his empire and finish pounding his well entrentched home planet into dust. Imagine being so opposed to diplomacy you'd rather die than accept a humiliating defeat Wait ...
Post by: Telgin on March 14, 2023, 07:15:17 pm
The improvements to pre-FTL civilizations and minor artifacts are going to be nice regardless.
Post by: Culise on March 14, 2023, 10:22:04 pm
But, whether I do or don't, I'll likely give it a bit of time for at least a few of the mods I use to update.
Post by: MorleyDev on April 25, 2023, 10:16:38 am
Stellaris, your Crusader Kings is showing.
Post by: Telgin on April 25, 2023, 10:31:58 am
Still very cool, and the other QoL improvements in 3.8 look very nice. Co-op doesn't matter to me, but I'm still really looking forward to the next patch.
Post by: MorleyDev on April 27, 2023, 07:23:21 am
After all,
Factions should want their Leader in your council.
A Leader in your council should influence your empires citizens ethics.
Those ethics increase the size of a faction.
Post by: Telgin on April 27, 2023, 09:25:52 am
Overall I really like the changes in today's dev diary though. Leaders will feel much more important and personal, so I might actually care when one dies now. Part of me wishes that they'd taken things even further with consolidating them though and removed admirals, generals and scientists assigned to individual fleets and armies.
Post by: Great Order on April 30, 2023, 01:13:07 pm
I can't keep up with the AI. By the 2220s they've got two full fleets and a technological edge over me while I'm having to drag myself up to that level. They're able to keep spewing out starbases non-stop while I'm sat waiting for ages for the influence for it. Every empire that spawns adjacent to me hates my guts from the word go. I can't win wars against them because even if I win a battle they'll just come back with a full fleet near-instantly.
I'm only playing on Captain with midgame scaling, I'm seriously fucking lost here.
Post by: Telgin on April 30, 2023, 01:27:43 pm
Are you getting advanced start neighbors, maybe? Try turning advanced starts or advanced neighbors off if you haven't.
Also, are you using any mods? What kind of empire are you running, and what is your economy and build like when you meet your first neighbors that overpower you?
Post by: pisskop on April 30, 2023, 03:05:03 pm
First get minerals up, then get alloys up.
Post by: Great Order on April 30, 2023, 06:08:17 pm
I switched to the AI empire next door who, despite being significantly smaller and less populated than me, apparently have a far, FAR better economy, being able to pump out 40k of ships when I have 20K at best.
Their economy is a bit less powerful than mine. Better energy and consumer goods income (Don't know why, those always suffer under me no matter how much I focus on them), worse alloys, worse research, worse unity, worse everything else basically. Still able to pump out shitloads of massive fleets.
So, since the AI's inclined towards apparently magicking up fleets, I've decided to splat them so I can actually fucking play a game for once.
EDIT: A deleted fleet decided to respawn.
I'm playing with UI mods and literally nothing else. Nothing that should be doing this. They aren't mercenary fleets, I checked, they just went from no fleets to having a 14k fleet within about three months.
I'm actually confused (And pissed off), I have no fucking clue what the game's doing with them. AFAIK there shouldn't be any "If empire has fewer than X fleets, spawn a fleet" without them being either an FE or a crisis, and yet here it is. The AI just summoning them from nowhere.
Post by: Criptfeind on April 30, 2023, 07:12:37 pm
Post by: Culise on May 01, 2023, 12:03:30 am
Worth adding if you've just come back to the game is that the Custodian team put a lot of effort into improving the AI over the last few patches. Don't worry about turning the difficulty down for a few games if you're coming back; the AI at a lower difficulty will likely be a similar level to what you were facing before. I also agree with Telgin that you may have ended up with an advanced start neighbor if they have two full fleets in just 20 years. These start with 500 extra alloys, 200 extra influence, an enlarged starting fleet, free starbases, and extra systems along with all potential colonies in those systems already founded. Needless to say, if you've left the option enabled, starting next to one can be an experience.
Post by: pisskop on May 01, 2023, 08:46:51 am
Post by: Telgin on May 01, 2023, 10:01:51 am
Post by: Great Order on May 01, 2023, 10:40:29 am
As in over 8 games at this point, I can count the number of non-hostile first contacts who haven't abducted or attempted to abduct my ships on one hand. I'm not exaggerating, that's a genuine fact.
Post by: Telgin on May 01, 2023, 10:46:44 am
A few things you can do to help would be to decrease the number of AI empires or to set some with more compatible ethics to force spawn. Fewer empires gives you more time and space to prepare, and I like to do that because I also don't like conquering neighbors but don't want to be boxed into the small space you'd get with the default number of empires. Force spawning friendlier empires isn't a silver bullet either since the game can refuse to spawn them for various reasons, like portraits being used multiple times.
Post by: pisskop on May 01, 2023, 10:52:50 am
AI, when they first make contact with you, will default towards harming relations. It's only after the game develops more that they chill out. You are the default threat until they find a new one.
I've noticed a difference in my first contact protocols. When Im at 'aggressive' Im barred from many of the more positive interactions. However, it allows me to camp chokepoints and chase off builders when I am aggressive. Which I appreciate.
Taking an unknown starport no longer auto-completes first contact either.
.
Im a bit of an aggressive expanded, with a preference for early game expansion. I tend to gear my early economy up through trade and then leaning on the market. I overproduce consumer goods as a byproduct of alloy production, and then sell those too.
New worlds are turned immediately into forge worlds, and I tend to skimp out of starbases for a while to build a competitive fleet. Early game starbases are generally more useful as forward defense than for their trade value, imo. Although Im also a huge fan of the food production slot on starbases. Less farmers means more smithies.
In general I overindustrialize my homeworld early on, and gradually turn my homeworld into a research and food world as the game progresses. I also probably underinvest in tech early on. 2 research buildings, 3 if Im doing well. I feel that the game is actually just an economy simulator, and if youre having trouble keeping up with the admittedly cheater ai than you just have to buckle down and burn your economy harder and earlier.
The ai tends to outtech me anyway, its just that I tend to focus on going after stronger branches in the tech tree while they do everything. And the warmonger ais are almost always at least superior to me, because Im expanding well into the mid game if I get my chokepoints right.
Post by: MorleyDev on May 13, 2023, 09:16:03 am
Not complaining, it's possibly my new favourite origin atm.
Post by: Telgin on May 13, 2023, 02:01:33 pm
On a different note, the new leaders and mechanics are really cool in the new DLC, but I agree with a lot of people who feel like the leader cap is too restrictive for how the game works now. I think the idea of a leader cap is an important balance factor with how much better leaders are, but boy does it feel too crowded when you really need least 2 of your starting pool in science ships. I can't imagine anyone ever uses generals now.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on May 13, 2023, 10:11:51 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on May 14, 2023, 12:23:46 am
tbf scientists are the only leader type I really give a shit about.I've had fun with good admirals.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on May 15, 2023, 11:58:07 pm
like Crusader Kings also has a morbillion modifiers for combat but on average having more troops will just win you the war outside of an utter blunder like a river crossing.
Post by: Telgin on May 16, 2023, 08:41:27 am
I still use them though. You need at least one for the council position, and some civics require a second one for council positions. I just don't go over 210 command limit to avoid the problem I just mentioned.
Post by: pisskop on May 16, 2023, 09:00:41 am
The problem with habs is that theyre expensive on the influence though.
Post by: Lidku on May 16, 2023, 05:35:24 pm
hard to give a shit about admirals when combat boils down to having bigger numbers than your opponent.
like Crusader Kings also has a morbillion modifiers for combat but on average having more troops will just win you the war outside of an utter blunder like a river crossing.
CK2 actually was one the few Paradox games where raw numbers could be beaten reliably, given the right said modifiers, troop composition, and technology.
If you're a tribal going up against a feudal, who certainly has more heavy troops than you could possibly have, you're going to get wrecked in the Melee phase. You might rack up a good few casualties in the skirmish phase, but the morale of the entire enemy unit will still hang-on due to the heavy infantry more-or-less still being too durable; thus not losing that much morale compared to other units.
Nomads in CK2 against all other government types, if you've upgraded your campsite buildings good enough, can pretty much take on anybody with only a horde of 2500~ to 5000~ men.
Post by: Robsoie on May 16, 2023, 06:18:34 pm
And making a reinforcement system instead of sending all your army at once to face troops of superior number, you could beat an unbeatable massive army by routing it, the system was explained there :
https://eu2.paradoxwikis.com/How_to_Win_Battles
Of course, the main difficulty was to time your reinforcement arrival, as getting a bit too late could mean your previous army was already obliterated and the arriving one would not be numerous enough to resist the serious beating coming its way , also there's an element of randomisation to the combat dice rolls, meaning that you could still be trashed even if you try to make a reinforcement system.
The importance of the "probing" described in the wiki can make all the difference.
Post by: pisskop on May 16, 2023, 06:38:32 pm
for instance, in the old Star Trek 4x you selected a manuver, and the ai carried it out each phase. You could tell it to advance, retreat, hold, hail, whatever.
But, for instance, the ai would fire use predictive ballistic firing arcs instead of firing on the current location of the enemy, and other small improvements.
Perhaps the stellaris experience system for ships could be augmented by giving individual fleets tactical improvements based on skill; perhaps you could even set a 'stance' for them that dictated what kind of ai they try to use. Much like the aggressive policy perk where you can set a 'fleet policy', maybe you could ask you fleets to try to do guerilla warfare where the aim is to cripple fleets and warp out, spending minimal time out of action.
Post by: Great Order on May 17, 2023, 03:37:51 am
I like to keep it at rapid deployment until my first major engagement, then swap to hit-and-run. Reduces casualties, win or lose.
Post by: Telgin on May 17, 2023, 09:52:17 am
On the subject of Stellaris, I found myself facing the Unbidden with their lovely early spawn mechanic again, and since they spawned 50 years early I wasn't prepared to fight them. I had to turtle for a while and that led to the Aberrant and Vehement spawning, which is rare for me to see. I've finally built up enough of a navy to consistently win battles with little losses, but I found that all three factions have over 10 dimensional anchors. That's despite the Aberrant appearing to not even own that many systems. I'm not sure if it's bugged yet or if I just can't count, but I've only seen 2 anchors that I haven't destroyed. The crises tend to break every major patch so I won't be surprised if it's just a bug, but I really wish that there was a way to track their locations from the situation log.
Post by: Radsoc on May 23, 2023, 11:47:00 am
Post by: pisskop on May 23, 2023, 12:09:56 pm
Something like a collective of slaves from multiple races throwing over their oppressors; plus a guaranteed slaver empire spawns? How are the mechanics of that? They implied youd face tech and economic troubles, and possibly diplo issues
Post by: Radsoc on May 23, 2023, 12:55:38 pm
One problem I have encountered is that liberation wars that imposes your ideology on other empires in some cases tend to revert back to slaver ethics (even if repeated, and you can't integrate empires requiring more than 1000 influence in one go, so basically I have 20 years left to old school annex the last slavery-enabled empire apart from 2 stray pre-FTL that don't fulfill abolitionst conditions where I gamble on them changing ethics - outright invading my allies and taking the planets is too late since I'm not allowed to invade pre-FTL due to xenophilia (which can be changed over a longer time though ) ).
Post by: pisskop on June 13, 2023, 02:23:47 pm
Traits in particular... The idea of the new traits sounds nice, but doesnt 'produce 32 food' seem like it completely throws off the need for farms at all; if some scientist can just produce a planets worth of food?
Post by: AlStar on June 13, 2023, 02:26:56 pm
Post by: Haspen on June 13, 2023, 02:38:18 pm
That said, in a cooperative game I have with Solymr, our chief of scientist, Bao Lee, became immortal (can't die of old age) thanks to an shiny-orb-related event from random anomaly, then got +32 energy credits/month trait, and acrued I think 2? Society expertise traits and then some more traits by level 6.
She's basically an Immortal Chinese Alchemiss; she just needs Psionics expertise from an event or something and she will become a Wizard at that point :P
Galactic Paragons is best DLC.
Post by: Kanil on June 13, 2023, 02:49:26 pm
... you're not going to be able to completely ignore farming by buying a bunch of farmer scientists.
This is actually a totally viable strategy in current patch, thanks to the "leader doesn't count towards leader cap until level 4" trait. You can hire just a ton of those dudes and have each one churn out 32 food for you, without affecting your 8-or-so highly trained council leaders. Then have your farmers do something else more productive.
This expansion is so overwhelmingly busted.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 13, 2023, 02:54:11 pm
Post by: Kanil on June 13, 2023, 03:00:31 pm
Post by: AlStar on June 13, 2023, 03:57:08 pm
https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Common_leader_traits
Post by: Haspen on June 13, 2023, 03:59:17 pm
Same for minerals and energy credits; alloys and congoods are +4 at start.
Still bonkers :P
Post by: MorleyDev on June 13, 2023, 04:02:27 pm
Post by: Kanil on June 13, 2023, 05:00:03 pm
Post by: Telgin on June 13, 2023, 06:11:24 pm
My major problem with it is the logic of it. This represents one of your leaders owning several districts' worth of resource production, which they... just give to you? I guess it could be assumed that you're paying for it with some unmodeled empire money as part of hiring them, but it still gets really messy with the distinction between public and private economy, which Stellaris doesn't pretend to model. I don't really count the internal market as much of a model for it.
Post by: pisskop on June 14, 2023, 11:00:12 am
Spoiler: screencap (click to show/hide)
The empire in question is in the single blue region, with zero hyperlanes connecting it. and he is strong 3x my diplo weight, and with a tech advantage and huge fleet of some sort.
Is this normal behavior? I feel like theyre some kind of quasi ascendant empire who isnt stagnant?
Post by: Haspen on June 14, 2023, 11:17:33 am
That's all I know :P
Post by: MorleyDev on June 14, 2023, 11:36:56 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Robsoie on June 15, 2023, 06:09:29 am
Ah, those. Fun times. Basically just Prikki-Ti but instead of death they bring love (some death required).
(https://i.imgur.com/SQANogu.jpg)
Post by: Lidku on June 15, 2023, 03:57:45 pm
I don't even see much point to this DLC, when internal politics in Stellaris are just surface-deep non-existent at this point still.
Post by: Haspen on June 15, 2023, 04:01:12 pm
The unity penalties over the cap aren't that big, except, of course, in early game.
Post by: Lidku on June 15, 2023, 04:50:45 pm
Post by: Culise on June 15, 2023, 05:59:48 pm
I only ever rocked with 2 science ships ever since I've played Stellaris (one for archeology and one for surveying). The cap still gripes me because now certain leader types, such as Generals and Governors, are basically a waste of a slot now. You can't have multiple fleets... well you still can... but you'll have to stomach the XP penalty that will come with it.Generals, I'll agree on, but not so much governors. A level 1 governor gives a flat +2% bonus to all resources on all planets in the sector and -2% to empire size cap. Start stacking on traits, and they're a pretty steady bonus to whichever sector they rule. Industrialists are particularly nice for their sectors: another +5% bonus to resources at level 4 from the veteran trait, up to +15% food output, +20% slave output, +35% to industrial outputs (alloy, CG, or refineries), +15% to researcher output, or smaller bonuses across the board (+5% ruler, +10% specialist, +15% workers) depending on which traits they roll. Pioneers can pick up +45% to various raw resources with investment, and Visionaries provide not only bonuses to unity, but they have the chance to provide one of the few flat bonuses to Influence. A high-level governor with decent traits is not only superior to a planetary designation, but stacks with that designation and all other bonuses you might have picked up.
I'd consider them more useful than Admirals, who are only good in times of war, as governor bonuses can feed into whatever goal you desire. Apart from the bare minimum to fill in whatever council slots absolutely mandate military leaders, admirals tend to be a distant third in priority for my play style. If I can't afford them, I'll simply run fleets with no leaders and convert those bonus alloys into even more ships.
The biggest issue is the random nature of the level-up traits. It can be moderately bothersome to have a sector of foundry worlds humming along only for the sector governor to end up being given the choice between something like food production, research, or trade.
Post by: MorleyDev on June 15, 2023, 08:41:15 pm
Although I play tall most of the time anyway, so never really even notice the leader cap and Stellaris has just been getting better and better for me since it does seem like the last few updates major of Stellaris have been trying to encourage a more tall-oriented playstyle whilst it used to be just plain inefficient compared to wide.
(Also for the leader cap you can go one or two over it without any real issue).
Post by: MrRoboto75 on June 15, 2023, 10:19:19 pm
I run three maybe four scientists and the leader limit hasn't really hurt me. Isn't the penalty only -leader XP anyway?
Post by: pisskop on June 16, 2023, 09:02:10 am
early game it might be useful to pay food/minerals/energy for leaders instead of unity and forcing more pop to work unity, but later on thats pretty much a nonpoint.
They clearly have to work out the leaders problem, but I see some potential in where theyre going.
Im just spitballing here, but if they lock level 2 traits behind level 4 leaders, and kept the 'leaders under 4 dont count'. They could force you to choose to upgrade low tier leaders.
Alternatively 'generic'' low level leaders, particularly governers and admirals could be autogenned and force-stuck into their holes. You pay for the privilege or re-rolling them with a cooldown or to stick a 'real leader' into the slot. these generic leaders could have more bad traits and less good ones, and be locked out of high tier skills as well.
Early game I find myself still producing 6-8 scientists, and with cloaking being a thing they arguably all still will have a use. So far the ai just seems to stick it onto science vessals; I havent even bothered researching it since Im not sure the benefits cloaking will have on ai. Hostile empires seem to send fleets 'on patrol' or in response to my own fleet movements they can see, so far.
Post by: Telgin on June 16, 2023, 10:02:16 am
The only real issue is when an admiral dies/retires/gets elected and it fucks up your fleet limit.
I run three maybe four scientists and the leader limit hasn't really hurt me. Isn't the penalty only -leader XP anyway?
They thankfully got rid of the command limit change, so this is much less of an issue. It still makes the micromanager trait a fireable offense though.
Post by: Haspen on June 16, 2023, 10:10:52 am
I've only seen lvl1, and 10% reduction isn't much.
Post by: Telgin on June 16, 2023, 10:15:45 am
Post by: Lidku on June 16, 2023, 03:09:31 pm
Alternatively 'generic'' low level leaders, particularly governers and admirals could be autogenned and force-stuck into their holes.
So basically what envoys are right now? Not really ideal, considering that envoys are one of the leader types that DEFINITELY shouldn't be autogenned/generic at this point, considering how important they are and how many things they're supposed to do.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on June 16, 2023, 04:01:11 pm
Why they're "fleshed out" as character leaders at all is a mystery to me.
Post by: pisskop on June 16, 2023, 04:22:59 pm
Spies, Diplomats, GC Envoys, possibly saboteurs or assassins, offscreen (no actual ships) traders and scouts, there are a lot of things they could do.
It looks like they mean to do something. And TBH the pre-ftl stuff is a little too frequent, but they do provide a nice little distraction and break from 'number go up' gameplay. Why I need to waste an envoy on them is mind boggling, but theyre a nice change to roleplaying.
So basically what envoys are right now? Not really ideal, considering that envoys are one of the leader types that DEFINITELY shouldn't be autogenned/generic at this point, considering how important they are and how many things they're supposed to do.
I was thinking more like 'capped at level 2 or 3, 1 extra negative trait, no level 2 traits' forced leaders who vary only a little and died and lived out their days uneventfully except for when you replace them with actual hired leaders. But yeah, envoys are frustratingly bland.
Also why is my xenophobic empire limited to 2 spies or espionage missions? Youd think they would want to do more clandestine stuff, not less. Envoys being spies is enh.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on June 16, 2023, 07:40:52 pm
Speaking of, it's technically easier to rule your neighbors as an overlord than to peacefully federate with them.
Post by: Haspen on June 17, 2023, 03:05:33 am
Espionage has the same issue as Federations in that you need to invest a tradition tree to bother with it at all. Like I don't think you even get spy/encryption tech without starting the tradition.
You need 'more physics points from Researchers' techs (Quantum something?) and Colonial Bureaucracy to get first espionage tech, after that its 'previous spy tech + physics researchers level tech'.
From what I have played espionage, both with and without the tree, there's really 4 actions you would use:
Gather Intel: has a chance to give you colony sites info, lift fog of war (very nice if you didn't survey/visit their systems with Science ships) or show enemy fleets, neat before invading that pesky neighbour who doesn't wanna be friends.
Acquire Asset: It's a bit random, but Assets can be reused, and +4 to operation speed is always nice.
Smear Campaign: Has potential to break those pesky defense pacts your neighbour has, making it easier to wage war.
Steal Technology: At worst it boosts something you're already researching; at best it will give you a tech that has been eluding you for those XX years already.
Subterfuge Tradition tree is nice (+50% infiltration speed, intel refunds after operations), but not a requirement; you easily get more codebreaking/encryption bonuses from edicts, techs and civics, really.
Post by: Lidku on June 17, 2023, 09:44:56 am
Envoys are such a steal from EU4s diplomat system.
Why they're "fleshed out" as character leaders at all is a mystery to me.
The fact that EU4 completely lacks interesting characters and barely has ANY internal politics, besides the Estates mechanic that either just gives you some advantages or maluses depending on what privileges you grant, is what it makes one of the most boring Paradox games there is.
Post by: pisskop on June 18, 2023, 06:40:10 pm
So I had one game where a bunch of pre-ftls achieved spaceflight at or shortly after games start. I had Federation's End wake up pretty early and contact me via my rival vassaling them. And the GD prikki-ti were my surprise neighbor competing with the honorbound warriors who got quickly gobbled up by the nercrophagic devouring swarm in another. That second game was quite fun, actually, within 30 years I met all my very hostile neighbors, including the rogue servitors (who seem to be much more aggressive in 3.8 in general). I like feeling on the backfoot all game.
My last 2 games were quitting when I realized I wouldnt be able to muster the 1000 strength army to take an early threats homeworld and just now being vassalized by a rival mid-expansion. I quit that one because I was mid-expansion and they came at me with 5k fleet. I thought 'okay, how bad could being a vassal be? 15% tribute? Well, yes, that, and also no expansion for 5 years. in 2210 or so. He would have been willing to negotiate expansion rights, and I would have let him, but Im mot waiting 60 months for that. Just take the L and move on.
The ai has been putting up significantly more of a fight, I feel like. And I like it. I got used to taking them as chumps
Post by: Telgin on June 19, 2023, 08:57:12 am
I haven't encountered many losses but since I like to play pacifists I tweak galaxy settings so that there are like half as many AI empires as the default settings suggest, which lets me take a lot of territory despite being pacifist and never declaring wars. That, in turn, lets me usually get away with not investing in a military early on. Sometimes I don't meet aliens for 30+ years.
That mindset has definitely come back to bite me in the butt though. One of my most memorable wars involved me getting caught with my pants down like that and having to trickle build destroyers for years as alloys allowed so that I could build up a big enough force to retake like 10 systems I lost along a snaking path to my neighbor. I've also lost a few early game wars badly enough to just restart since I didn't expect I could come back from them.
I very rarely restart the game though. Funnily enough, I restarted my last new game twice. The first time was because of something new to 3.8: I had an imperial heir who was a general and... that's just such a waste. Since you find out who your heir is like 15 days into the game, I didn't feel bad rerolling that one, and I got a governor the second time. My second restart was because I got the abandoned terraforming equipment event on one of my very early colonies.
I despise that event, by the way. I think I've had neutral outcomes like 10% of the time and a gaia world maybe 3% of the time. 87% of the time it feels like it converts to a tomb world or toxic world and kills the colonists, which is exactly what happened that time. Since I was like 10 years into the game, I restarted again. What's so bad about this event is that if you just ignore it, you get a permanent debuff on the planet even if you terraform it to a gaia world, which is stupid and almost certainly an oversight.
Post by: Haspen on June 19, 2023, 09:09:18 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Telgin on June 19, 2023, 12:29:55 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on June 20, 2023, 07:12:52 pm
Post by: pisskop on June 20, 2023, 09:14:01 pm
Is the AI actually getting better, or has the cheating been secretly boosted?
I think its doing more optimal things, like building defenses and quitting before it gets smashed into a thousand pieces for the next warmonger to gobble up. Technical things that make sense and arent quite as wasteful. The second tier powers seem keen on pouncing on their targets once the primary ones are distracted, little things Ive noticed so far. For instance they seem to acknowledge if I start moving fleets around their borders, etc.
afa: cheating. idk. its not a 'raw number go up' if it is, but I already give them a significant edge via difficulty selection.
Speaking of 'fleets they can see'. I tried a little stealth. Figured I'd do an all armor build since the stealth disables shields for a short time anyway. Stealth occupies an accessory slot, meaning corvettes are kind of crap at stealth. no worse than normal fleets I guess, and theyre cheap to replace after the early game, but you can expect to lose up to half if you take on something chunky for their size.
The destroyers Im just getting to now, They operate a little better, at least as the rushdown style Im going for. Still dont want to just throw them at chunky starforts or into the mouth of battleships, but its only 2300 for me, 25yr into the midgame. I use a pair of rushdown fleets in most my games for their speed and cheapness. Frigates can be stealthed, but I have a pretty poor opinion of them outside of large fleets anyway. too slow, to quick to die, not enough accessory slots and no guns to speak of.
Post by: MorleyDev on June 20, 2023, 09:18:04 pm
Post by: AlStar on June 25, 2023, 06:47:09 pm
(https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1GXKTpo157lEXjk7YLzNg5m58QnLhtyVB&export=download)
Post by: Telgin on June 25, 2023, 09:28:17 pm
Post by: pisskop on June 26, 2023, 04:01:14 pm
Who says theyre all bad?
Post by: Eric Blank on June 26, 2023, 08:20:26 pm
Post by: Telgin on June 26, 2023, 10:04:44 pm
One of many events I know to skip now, like the terraforming equipment I complained about earlier, or the twinkling stars or adrift events. I wish I could skip the odd factory event too since it feels like 80% of the time it eats a pop.
Most colony events suck to encounter.
Post by: E. Albright on June 27, 2023, 05:38:57 am
Post by: AlStar on June 27, 2023, 11:22:36 am
As expected, two of them got the "adjusting to their new life is scary, -5% work efficiency;" which is all I've ever gotten.
But one of them got "things are going great!" Never actually had that happen before.
I actually rather like the Odd Factory - sure, it'll eat a couple pops like 90% of the time, but it churns out a lot of alloy each month, and it's a lowest-level job, so even starting robot pops and slaves can man it.
Post by: pisskop on June 27, 2023, 03:43:14 pm
Post by: pisskop on July 07, 2023, 02:26:48 pm
Spoiler: pic (click to show/hide)
Post by: Telgin on July 07, 2023, 08:08:27 pm
That's what I do these days. It's particularly painful because I usually play Life-Seeded empires, so I have 0% habitability until I get the World Shaper ascension perk and terraform everything. It can literally be 100 years into the game before I research genetic engineering or take an ascension path because of that. Almost certainly suboptimal, but Life-Seeded is a very suboptimal origin anyway and I don't really power game.
Technically, the event only fires if you have pops with low happiness and low habitability, so I gambled on it in a recent game since my pops were happy. That was fine until the Manifesti faction event fired, which promptly tanked a few pops' happiness to 0% because they were making insane demands for their faction, and this event fired very soon after. ::) I used to hate the Manifesti thing almost as much, but at least they fixed it so that the faction actually goes away eventually now.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 07, 2023, 10:30:08 pm
Post by: Telgin on July 08, 2023, 12:40:18 am
Anyway, I hoped that running social welfare would save me from the event, and it did until the Manifesti ruined those pops' happiness to low faction approval. A lot of the Manifesti faction demands literally can't be fulfilled.
Post by: Haspen on July 08, 2023, 01:56:02 am
Post by: AlStar on July 08, 2023, 08:23:49 pm
(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/2052001304417225948/F10A00714A15FF5CE59B947A74F9C86057BCFB70/)
That's something like 70-odd refugee pops fleeing into my territory.
Post by: Telgin on July 08, 2023, 09:53:02 pm
That was always one of the best parts of playing xenophiles, or at least accepting all refugees. As the galaxy burns, you just get stronger. Of course, by the time you're facing the crisis or war in heaven, you've already won or lost, but sometimes genocidal empires can end up sending you pops earlier in the game this way.
Post by: pisskop on July 09, 2023, 12:19:53 pm
Nothing quite like making off with 40 pops from a capital world to kill your oppenents
p: I typically play spiritualist, because it plays well into how I play the game. I've been adding machines, robots enter my game, and the pop grow from them is spectacular.
if and when I do cloning or get a budding pop, I can just disassemble the robot station
Post by: Rolan7 on October 25, 2023, 02:26:43 pm
For now I'm playing the base UNE with a single mod that adds a certain alien race. Mod's SFW, the race is... not. That mod makes it a bit of a challenge run, on top of some personal challenges Utopian Abundance from the *start* and gene clinics everywhere ASAP.
My UNE (star trek Federation essentially) is offering a democratic alternative to the Affini Compact. Everyone still enjoys post-scarcity living, plus free gene clinics and cyber-augmentation. The difference is that all sophonts have an equal voice in government, and are free to live and work wherever they want.
The early game helped set the stage by boxing us behind three aggressive, allied hiveminds. We only survived by allying with some friendly "Klingons" (Spiritual militants, toxoids) and a distributed silicon-based intelligence. Together we forged a sector where anyone can be free or, uh, a computer. The Klingons happily accepted UN governance as long as they get to fight, and the computer is happy to compute (and exchange its research for protection).
From this basis, the UNE (pending rebrand) crusaded for democracy. Somehow autocracies had made it to the stars, and their citizens cried out for aid. It went quite well for a while! Now the galaxy is mostly stabilized into four groups:
The UNE Greater Prosperity Sphere
The Free Information Pact, a powerful but pacifistic federation encircling the core. Research partners with the UNE, and a steady source of immigrants.
The Meme Zone, a chaotic area where the Eldar fight Clan Snek Cobra. A small group of servitor robots promise paradise to organic beings, but between the Affini and the UNE, nobody takes them seriously.
The Affini Compact.
Spoiler: Map (click to show/hide)
With superior technology and good intentions, the Affini easily vassalized the Galactic South. Only the egalitarian Confederation of Juss still has their independence, for now, by signing a military alliance with the Affini. The equally egalitarian Syldaeans have become battle-thralls, though the "nonviolent" Affini call them a bulwark. The Andarian star-empire received a... less respectful vassalage, but they're fascists so fuck'm.
It's a pretty nice galaxy, actually. Other than the Meme Zone getting rescued from itself, this might be a peaceful state of affairs. Sophonts are treated well in all three serious powers, and 2/3 of them enjoy freedom of movement. Is this a mythical "good end"?
Well... the Affini's Syldaean "bulwark" has come to the UNE, pleaing for help. Life under the Affini is wonderful, but it is not free. Will the UNE come to their aid?
(if we do, space-Italy will join the revolt too because fascists hate being happy. It's okay- we'll save their citizens from their stupid government as well.)
...
Or... maybe I won't be doing that.
Post by: Sirus on October 26, 2023, 11:37:13 am
Post by: Rolan7 on October 26, 2023, 02:49:58 pm
Actually it is weird that machines still can't be voidborn AFAIK. Originally the problem was that the species was split between three habitats which recently reunited... but that's no longer the case, hence why hives can spread their wings. Why not robots? Strange.
I just had a funky diplomacy happen. Lemme try to recount it:
A system wanted to rebel from a vassal of the Affini
I was in a defensive pact with the Affini
I promised to support the system's independence even though it "could be considered an act of war"
oh gods oh no it was considered an act of war, and I was way too busy to fight Affini and their vassals even if I wanted too
I surrendered, getting Humiliated and obviously returning the system. To the vassal, looks like.
I lost like 50 trust with the Affini but almost immediately re-signed our defensive pact, phew
...
About a decade later, some spiritualists rebel against the authoritarian vassal of the xenophile Affini
I'm called in to "defend" the overlord because I'm "guaranteeing their independence" (actually it's a defensive pact but ok)
The rebellion only has two systems including the system that joined me before.
The overlord wins easily, but takes one of the systems... and gave me the other!
I loaded an autosave (weird not playing ironman, but this is modded) and I had *10* claims on the system that had temporarily joined me O_o. And the overlord had a claim on the other rebel system for whatever reason, so they simply took it rather than return it to their vassal. kinda funny how that works, particularly since I think they were tied with their vassal with 1 claim each. Weird that it gave me 10, though.
In any case this is perfect because it finally clears the big "distance" malus that was preventing me from federating our thirds of the galaxy together. Xenophiles my butt... We were merely one step removed from being hyper-relay linked, in case that would have helped too.
Finally, we can join together in autonomous negotiated harmony <3
(And, I'm hoping, sneak around their civic's denial of migration pacts...)
Post by: Telgin on October 26, 2023, 05:41:29 pm
Anyway, my last game was a bit humbling at the end game. I decided to try a pure strike craft + missile ship build to see how it would work, and was stunned when the War in Heaven triggered and the awakened empires absolutely trashed my fleets. Their fleets were around 700K in power while mine were close to 1M each due to being able to focus on one set of repeatables per science field, but I needed like 4M of my ships to beat one of their fleets. I accidentally engaged one in a system that nullified shields and lost 6M of my ships to one of their fleets, which only took maybe 50% losses.
It was amazing how much the crisis ships were a pushover by comparison.
Also, on the subject of diplomacy, that game was pretty frustrating on that front too. I usually play inward perfectionists so this time I decided to play federation builders. And, of course, nobody wants to be my friend because the game generates empires that hate you to keep the game "interesting." I ended up having to form a federation with a single system primitive civilization I found that reached the space age. Which... works, but feels like it's cheating.
Post by: Grim Portent on October 27, 2023, 01:39:22 pm
On the subject of weird things you can't do, I'm still disappointed that you can't play as non-gestalt robots and am shocked that you still can't play a psionic hivemind. I mean, for organic hiveminds is it not implied that's how they even work?
The idea is that the Hivemind's version of low level intra-species telepathy isn't the same as the kind that can tap into the Shroud. Same or similar medium, but the method involved is too distinct for one to become the other, though I can't remember the event or phrasing used that makes me think that atm.
Wouldn't be hard to rewrite or write around though, nor would it be the first time they've done it. I think they're paranoid that it'd be unbalanced in some way, same with non-gestalt non-ascended robots.
Post by: Telgin on October 27, 2023, 01:54:31 pm
I suspect it's a similar problem with non-gestalt robots, though that feels like a smaller issue to tackle. They could probably give them similar pop assembly as gestalt robots with everything else being like a normal empire except they use energy instead of food. Leaders and techs would need work too. People say it would be unbalanced because of how synths have such big bonuses to everything, but they don't have to give them those traits. Those could be late game techs like they are for normal empires, even if it would make less logical sense that intelligent and individual robots from one robotic empire are less advanced than those of an organic empire.
Post by: Telgin on December 04, 2023, 08:32:31 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Haven't gotten kicked in the teeth that hard in a very long time in this game.
On the other hand, it was an otherwise unusual game. I had 8 toxic terraforming candidates in my empire so I took Detox for the first time. Still a waste because none of the planets got over 10 pops due to how pop growth works in the late game, but whatever.
The astral rifts also turned out to be surprisingly interesting and engaging, but I'm sure they'll end up background noise like most events after I see them a couple of times.
Post by: Ulfarr on December 09, 2023, 07:53:30 am
Paradox has dropped win 7 support on stellaris, since version 3.8 or 3.9 (i'm not sure on which one). Of course being professionals (sic) they said nothing about it except for some forum post some time later, when people asked why the game didn't launch. Based on the gog version, the problem lies solely with stellaris/paradox launcher and not with the game itself, which works fine so far (version 3.9.2 no gamebreaking bugs in ~15 hours of multiplayer).
How to keep playing on win7:
Single player:
- Just launch the game directly through "stellaris.exe" (found in the installation folder)
Multiplayer (for while it lasts at least):
- Launch the game as above and *try* to login with your paradox account through the ingame menu. Choose the option to remember you.
- If the above doesn't work, ie connection timeout, you'll have to use a win10 pc and log in, via the ingame menu, with your account through that. Choose to remember you! After you log in using the win10 pc, exit the game. Go to Users\Username\Documents\Paradox Interactive\Stellaris and find the pdx_login.txt. This file contains the encrypted information for the automatic login. Transfer that file from the win10 pc to win7 (in the corresponding directory). The win7 pc should now be able to connect to paradox's server and host/join games.
All these because stellaris has no LAN support :(
Post by: Great Order on December 09, 2023, 11:19:01 am
Post by: MorleyDev on December 09, 2023, 12:39:32 pm
Stellaris and the launcher both work on Linux via Proton if you don't want to update Windows. You're much better off switching to an actively maintained Linux OS than staying on a dead Windows OS.
Post by: Putnam on December 09, 2023, 05:49:17 pm
Post by: Ulfarr on December 10, 2023, 05:39:56 am
Hard to blame them for dropping support, considering Windows 7 support from Microsoft ended in 2020 and it hasn't received security updates in 3 years now for average consumers (or start of this year if you were on ESU). Frankly no internet connected device should still be on Windows 7. And I'd say the default assumption should be anything released after Jan 10th 2020 doesn't support Windows 7 unless explicitly stated otherwise, so I wouldn't have expected anything after 2.5.1 to officially support it.
Stellaris and the launcher both work on Linux via Proton if you don't want to update Windows. You're much better off switching to an actively maintained Linux OS than staying on a dead Windows OS.
You are missing the point of my post but it doesn't really matter.
PS. Gog still has it listed as win7 compatible though that might not be paradox's mistake.
Post by: MorleyDev on December 10, 2023, 06:29:34 am
You are missing the point of my post but it doesn't really matter.
I wasn't really deriding your comment, just adding thoughts on Windows 7 support as an idea. Namely, please don't have a Windows 7 machine connected to the internet :P DMZ that shit at the very least.
Post by: Haspen on December 10, 2023, 06:44:56 am
We've already found a trustful, to-be-diplovassalized-later, merchant state right next to our borders. We also found few planets full of primitives so our workforce comes from them, mostly, for rapid development, and we enough planets and galactic arms for ourselves to settle in before we will have to toss our armadas at anyone.
And we also found out that Paradox still haven't fixed an exploit: namely, trait picks for your Leaders are synched, right? But the pick itself only sets in after the 'toast' (popup) message disappears, so you have those 3 seconds' window where you and your coop partner can pick different Traits, be they regular or Veteran traits. Of course, if you pick the same Trait as your coop partner, nothing happens, but usually you have 3 picks to choose from.
We have for example Statistician-Explorer who has 2 levels Roamer, 2 levels Perfectionist and 1 level of Adaptionist, I believe, tossed in - and he is barely lvl4.
Post by: Ulfarr on January 31, 2024, 08:48:08 am
.....(version 3.9.2 no gamebreaking bugs in ~15 hours of multiplayer).....
That didn't age all that well.
That multiplayer game is still going despite some CTD bug related to some event which would crash depending on what the player choose. However on a different, single player run, I did have another event related CTD that crashed no matter what I did. However^2, upgrading to 3.10.4 fixed that and I had no problem continuing with that game to completion...So I guess 3.10.4 works on win7.
Post by: Great Order on March 16, 2024, 02:15:02 pm
Post by: Rolan7 on March 16, 2024, 02:22:31 pm
Post by: Telgin on March 16, 2024, 08:38:38 pm
Also can't wait to find out how buggy it'll be.
Post by: pisskop on March 16, 2024, 08:44:04 pm
- so now I know who to target and burn first lol
Post by: Robsoie on March 17, 2024, 12:44:14 pm
Still around the early game, year 2220
Expanding as fast as it could by building spacebases in every new systems its science ships surveyed, the Exterminator empire got in contact with alien civilizations as expected.
As a first contact, threats were made as usual and borders were closed.
Still expanding fast to avoid getting boxed in a corner of the universe, the Exterminator empire ran into another alien civ that told them to not settle in nearby systems, something to do with their "holy places" .
"Xeno scums" was the right and correct answer the Exterminator empire replied and immediately surveyed those systems, shprtly followed by construction ships building a starbase, to the outrage of those newly encountered aliens.
Aliens that didn't wait too long to send another message that was a declaration of war.
The Exterminator empire deployed his early game current fleet filled with its best corvettes for a total of 676 fleet power ready to meet and annihilate the "Avarrian Protectors" xenos incursion.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Ok
(https://i.imgur.com/LAd6JVJ.jpeg)
Post by: Telgin on March 17, 2024, 02:43:26 pm
I guess I got 100 years of mileage out of my research federation so it wasn't wasted, but that really sucked since it was a level 5 federation with all of its perks. I spent maybe 20 years as a subject, with its huge economic tax, and now that the Khan is dead and I'm free, I can't rejoin the federation because my former allies were very weak without me and are at war with someone else who jumped on them at the first opportunity.
I don't want to start a new federation this late in the game so I hope they survive and I get to rejoin, else that'll be a wasted tradition tree.