Round 1: Push -- equipment problems
Round 2: Early game showdown (prematch (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=143721.msg5660581#msg5660581)/results (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=143721.msg5660822#msg5660822)) ... Orcs win!
Insanegame's Showdown: (With Mumakil! (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=143721.msg5663194#msg5663194))
Smak's Round 3: Dwarves gear for armor piercing (prematch (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=143721.msg5663545#msg5663545)/results (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=143721.msg5663651#msg5663651)) ... Orcs and Dwarves Draw!
Smak's Round 4: Fire and Ice (.. and mithril) (prematch (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=143721.msg5667132#msg5667132)/results (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=143721.msg5697174#msg5697174)) ... Dwarves win!
................
All units: Iron mail, greaves, helm, gauntlet, boot, kite shield
Skill 5 in armor, shield, dodge, fighter/archer, weapon skill unless noted
Orcs bonus: Lamellar cloak, mask
Dwarves bonus: Steel breastplate
TEAM ORC
5x Orc: Ironbone tomahawk, 10 ironbone throwing 'hawks, skill 3 in both axe and thrown
5x Uruk: Bloodsteel macuahuitl
5x Snaga: Bone composite bow, 20 copper bodkins
1x Ronin: Skill 7*, mithril daikatana
1x Olog: Copper maul
TEAM DWARF
5x Guards: Steel battleaxe
5x Legion: Skill 7*, silver warhammer
5x Marksdwarf: Skill 7*, iron bladed javelin thrower, 10 piercing copper javs, NO shield
1x Legion: Skill 7*, superior adamantine battle axe
1x Marksdwarf: Skill 7*, bladed repeating steel crossbow, 40 steel broadheads
* Primary weapon skill only
Place your bets!!!
(http://i.imgur.com/twncs0I.png)
But the results were kind of interesting anyway:
* Dwarven Javelineers unleash several rounds of hell, and are very effective. Unfortunately, all other ranged units drop their gear and charge to fight by shield-bashing.
* The Orcish Champion Olog is pierced by multiple javelins and goes down almost immediately, he dies before swinging his maul a single time (finished off quickly by a single hammer shot to the skull)
* The Dwarven Champion Adamantine Axeman faces off with 3 Uruks who all charge at him early on. He knocks one Uruk down, swings and missed the second, has his ankle crushed by the third. He never gets up again, although they have to hew him many times to finish him off.
* The Dwarven Champion Crossbow drops his ammo and sadly, is essentially useless.
* The Orcish Champion Sword-orc charges down and destroys several dwarves, able to strike deeply through even the steel plate armor. Early in the battle his lamellar cloak protects him from a javelin strike which strikes hard enough to propel him from the force of the blow, but he hops up shortly with no permanent injury.
* Orc tomahawks are turned away by armor every time, only bruising.
* Orcs and dwarves dodge and parry blows at similar rates.
* Orc macuahuitls deliver killing or severely disabling blows a little less than half of the time that a blow lands, mostly of the crushing type, but are deflected by armor otherwise.
* Orcs use a leg sweep or shield bash generally can break arms or legs. Dwarfs are disarmed or go down in pain.
* Dwarf roundhouse kick or shield bash generally bruise muscle or dent bone. Common orcs and snaga go down in pain but Uruks fight through it with seemingly no ill effect.
* Dwarf axes regularly deliver severe, but not disabling, wounds.
* Dwarf hammers deliver severe strikes on almost every hit, but only kill when they strike the head or neck, and dazed/broken Uruks are able eventually to recover.
* Uruks use "charge" attack several times to good effect.
* Dwarves enter battle trance 2 times to good effect.
* Dwarves win the initial phase of the "line battle" between grunts, the Hammers and Javelins easily crushing the common Orcs and Snaga.
(http://i.imgur.com/K0Ur0sz.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/ME6q0ku.png)
* Tide turns toward Orcs especially as the Uruks and Ronin close to engage the Javelineers.
* Javelin bayonettes fail to pierce armor including inability to finish off two wounded Uruks who are stabbed many times in the helm/mask.
* Orcs win with 8 survivors, including 4/5 Uruks and the Ronin.
Analysis:
Uruks are tough enough to shake off dented and even broken bones and keep fighting, and that ultimately seems to be the determining factor. Although, I wonder if it could have gone much differently if the champion Axe-dwarf had survived the initial clash, or if the champion Swords-orc had not been lucky enough to shake off the javelin to the gut.
Round 2 Overall:
ORCS 6 :: DWARVES 2
(1 ) 9 Dwarves live
(2 ) 16 Orcs live
(3 ) 10 Orcs live
(4 ) 15 Dwarves live
(5 ) 8 Orcs live
(6 ) 8 Orcs live
(7 ) 15 Orcs live
(8 ) 16 Orcs live
(http://i.imgur.com/w599BXC.png)
So: Orcs are indeed the winner! Dwarven gladiator masters, if you want to re-equip your squads/champions or otherwise tweak the ruleset, I'd be up for running a re-match in a week or so. I don't think it will take huge changes for Dwarves to come out on top.
It was hard to see details in 8 fights simultaneously but some trends were clear.
- Axe grunts for both sides were serviceable line infantry, nothing spectacular.
- Warhammers seemed the most effective weapon in an initial clash but lack real killing power in the extended melee.
- Uruks are boss, Ironbone macuahuitls were "good enough" even without penetrating armor on most hits, they did a fine amount of crushing damage
- Sword-ronin was by a significant margin the most effective Champion -- like other uruks, he shrugs off injuries, and fights on until he's really grievously damaged.
- Ologs mostly were good for tanking lots of javelins. His Copper maul strikes were mostly absorbed by armor.
- Axe-dwarf champion would slash off limbs until they took a hit or two, then goes down in pain like anyone else. Maybe he could get full steel mail.
- Crossbow Dwarf was the least effective Champion and probably should be replaced with a melee warrior, or he at least needs several levels more skill bonus.
- Javeliners seemed slightly better than bow-snaga in the first couple salvos, but most used up their 10 ammo and effectiveness charging in with bayonettes fixed was low.
This... Actually explains alot with Blackhold's militia now.
Yes of course this is partly a balance experiment cleverly disguised as fun!
I was thinking of some tweaks for Orcs, small things like maybe make the nice kite shields non-default. Since Meph was considering to roll out race specific GUI options in the future, i have a few optional difficulty settings in mind too. This experiment suggests to me that Orcs are indeed "ahead" in early/mid game but not by a huge amount. Late game i am pretty sure dwarven legendary/superior volcanic gear trumps everything else, but at that point you're set either way :)
The default world settings for Orcs are a lot more forgiving than they used to be, which is probably a good thing since a lot of new players used to get stomped :) and veteran Orc players can still use the GUI to go with something closer to "classic" settings - e.g. choose only 0 or 1 trade partner, and set at least one civilized enemy to attack "very early".
Strange, repeating crossbows are often the deadliest weapons in my dwarven forts, and he was equipped with steel bolts.
Maybe the bolt type should be changed to piercing or hammer heads?
Cutting bolts tend to only work well against small-ish targets for me.
Agreed, the broadheads were deflected by armor, fort mode invaders have more vulnerable spots than these gladiators do. The fairly close range doesn't work to his advantage, in some of the battles the orcs were able to get in his face early.
I'd love to see more setups like this. :)
Very curious how Warlocks do in such controlled battles, with their ghouls and skeletons.
By all means, if you or others set up a roster I can run some battles. I don't know the other modes well enough to know what's a ~fair comparison though.
* Legendary maul/hammer/mace/knuckles as of v6.0 still use their special attack every time because of the hardcoded EDGE/BLUNT attack ratio
* Possible typo in line 1923 inorganic_metal [TENSILE_FRACTURE:144000] (volcanic) probably intended to be 1440000 (but fortunately this stat isn't used in normal combat)
* 248 inorganic_z_orcfort [CDI:USAGE_HINT:FLEEING] (stickbombs) should be ATTACK
See the squad loadouts here:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=143721.msg5667132#msg5667132
( 1) 8 dwarves survive
( 2) 11 dwarves
( 3) 8 dwarves
( 4) 12 dwarves
( 5) 8 dwarves
( 6) 10 9 dwarves (one froze to death in aftermath)
( 7) 12 orcs
(8 ) 9 dwarves
Dwarves win 7-1! As noted above the Dwarven systematic edge from mithril metallurgy and Weaponry enhancements are just too much to deal with. The Frostskald and Fire Mage both booked their share of kills but the Fire damage is more up-front while the frost storms are a cumulative effect, and this battle was brutal and short, so I think the Mage had more of an effect. The billowing clouds of fire, smoke and freezing gale magic were definitely a bad, bad place for the grunts from either side, though.
However, as noted again, this battle was intense. The dwarven survivors are *not* in good shape compared to any survivors in the last rounds. At least a few either bled- or frostbit-out while i was typing this up.
(http://i.imgur.com/tSkpxeY.png)
I think it's a toss up which is better, assuming you're an Orc and therefore big enough to 1H wield the chainaxe. The dwarven-style upgraded axe has a solid chance to penetrate same-material armor with every swing, but the chainaxe when it gets through armor very well might cut a fool in half.
(Dwarven) Superior mithril battle axe
Composition: Mithril (Silver, steel), Steel
Workflow: Smelter, Metalurgist, Forge, Weaponry
[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_AXE_BATTLE_UPGRADE_ONE]
[NAME:battle axe:battle axes]
[ADJECTIVE:superior]
[SIZE:1200]
[SKILL:AXE]
[TWO_HANDED:47500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:42500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:9]YES
[ATTACK:EDGE:40000:6000:hack:hacks:NO_SUB:2500]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:40000:6000:slap:slaps:flat:2500]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:2000]
[ATTACK:EDGE:5000:5000:lacerate:lacerates:blade:2500]
[ATTACK:EDGE:40000:12000:relentlessly hew:relentlessly hews:full force:3000]
[ATTACK:EDGE:40000:6000:emphatically slice:emphatically slices:honed axeblade:1800]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50000:10000:make an undercut swing at:makes an undercut swing at:power:3000]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50000:10000:make a backhanded strike at:makes a backhanded strike at:NO_SUB:3000]
(Orcish) Ebonglass chain-axe
Composition: Ebony glass (Obsidian, gold dust, cobalt dust, sand, pearlash), automaton part (mechanism, soulgem), oil, razorwire
Workflow: Glassworks, Forge, tinkerer, totempole, farmer/chemist, steamfoundry
[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_CHAINAXE]
[NAME:chainaxe:chainaxes]
[SIZE:1200]
[SKILL:AXE]
[TWO_HANDED:70000] quite heavier than regular jagged axe
[MINIMUM_SIZE:50000]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:9]
[ATTACK:EDGE:40000:6000:hack:hacks:bladed edge:1250] normal like regular jagged axe
[ATTACK:EDGE:50000:2000:rake:rakes:toothed edge:1250]
[ATTACK:EDGE:40000:12000:relentlessly hew:relentlessly hews:full force:2000]
[ATTACK:EDGE:60000:6000:hack and rip:hacks and rips:steampowered blade:1875] 50% more surface area and leverage on these attacks
[ATTACK:EDGE:75000:2000:rake and rip:rakes and rips:steampowered teeth:1875]
[ATTACK:EDGE:60000:12000:relentlessly hew:relentlessly hews:power assisted overhand swing:5000] special critical
[ATTACK:EDGE:60000:12000:assault:assaults:power assisted uppercut:3000] special moderate
[ATTACK:BLUNT:250:4000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]
In regular play in fort mode i'd give the edge by far to the chainaxe because there are plenty of un- or poorly-armored targets and the hack/raking attacks will still be fine. Here in the gladiator arena where first blood against a well armored foe is key, I'd probably take the superior battleaxe.
-------------------------------------
Of course this is the winner hands down ....
(Dwarven) Legendary mithril battle axe
Composition: Mithril (Silver, steel), Steel, Luck
Workflow: ~6 x (Smelter, Metalurgist, Forge, Weaponry). Or get a bloodsteel one by Slaughterhousing a minotaur.
[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_AXE_BATTLE_UPGRADE_TWO]
[NAME:battle axe:battle axes]
[ADJECTIVE:legendary]
[SIZE:1200]
[SKILL:AXE]
[TWO_HANDED:47500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:42500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:9]YES
[ATTACK:EDGE:40000:6000:hack:hacks:NO_SUB:2500]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:40000:6000:slap:slaps:flat:2500]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:2000]
[ATTACK:EDGE:5000:5000:lacerate:lacerates:blade:2500]
[ATTACK:EDGE:40000:12000:relentlessly hew:relentlessly hews:full force:3000]
[ATTACK:EDGE:40000:6000:emphatically slice:emphatically slices:honed axeblade:1800]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50000:10000:make an undercut swing at:makes an undercut swing at:power:3000]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50000:10000:make a backhanded strike at:makes a backhanded strike at:NO_SUB:3000]
[ATTACK:EDGE:90000:900000:strike:strikes:bloodthirst of khorne:15000]
[ATTACK:EDGE:90000:900000:hit:hits:want for blood:15000]