Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Modding => Mod Releases => Topic started by: smeeprocket on December 06, 2014, 06:54:36 pm
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This now works and will add transpersons, intersex persons, but NOT genderfluid or genderneutral persons to your game. Please read the instructions for the download before unzipping.
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=10204
Other things that work well with this mod: Putnam's adoption script, which can be found in this thread. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=123817.0)
The problem with pronouns currently is that the program that allows me to edit the pronouns is picky about the character length of the replacement. So it I try to replace it and its with they, them, and their, it shows those descriptions correctly, but truncates the female and male descriptions. I have no solution for this, but have posted asking for further control over pronouns. It would be really helpful if I could gender a caste as, say, male for the appropriate reproductive interactions, but then switch the pronouns used to refer to them to the feminine or neutral.
I've enabled beards on all dwarves (which is as it should be, anyway, dammit!) transfemale and intersex female and male humans and elves do not have beards. You can fix this easily in the raws though if you have different preferences.
All of these extra castes are sterile currently. The adoption script by Putnam located at the appropriate link -might- allow for a couple with a trans or intersex partner to adopt, but I haven't tested it. (it would be tricky to test.) AFAIK gay couples can adopt that way though, the kid just has to be an orphan.
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Unless there were some changes in version .40 I am now aware of, DF genders can be male, female or neuter. Males always parter with females and vice versa, only female can bear children, neuter cannot reproduce and is referred to ingame as 'it'. Gender icons are tied to this system, meaning adding new ones is not an option.
If you want to add transgenders, this is what you got to work with. All I can think of is giving them separate creature descriptions and possibly caste names. There is no way to separate the he-she-it text from the reproductive bits so this will always be somewhat inconsistent.
I wouldn't expect this to be expanded upon either. Toady has so far made a policy of abstracting sexuality and reproduction to a high degree, in order to keep the uh... emerging possibilities and inevitable bad publicity at bay (and away from bay12, heheh).
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Unless there were some changes in version .40 I am now aware of, DF genders can be male, female or neuter. Males always parter with females and vice versa, only female can bear children, neuter cannot reproduce and is referred to ingame as 'it'. Gender icons are tied to this system, meaning adding new ones is not an option.
If you want to add transgenders, this is what you got to work with. All I can think of is giving them separate creature descriptions and possibly caste names. There is no way to separate the he-she-it text from the reproductive bits so this will always be somewhat inconsistent.
I wouldn't expect this to be expanded upon either. Toady has so far made a policy of abstracting sexuality and reproduction to a high degree, in order to keep the uh... emerging possibilities and inevitable bad publicity at bay (and away from bay12, heheh).
er males do not always partner with females, that was changed in the recent version. homosexuality etc is in the game.
bad publicity? You mean by being inclusive. I guess for the hate crowd that would be bad publicity, anyway that isn't something I wanted to discuss.
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what if I put both the female and male tag into the caste? Then maybe only put litter size in the appropriate castes? IS there anything that designates male reproduction or are the tags female and male tied to reproduction?
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what if I put both the female and male tag into the caste? Then maybe only put litter size in the appropriate castes?
The last gender/sex tag will override.
IS there anything that designates male reproduction or are the tags female and male tied to reproduction?
MALE and FEMALE are tags purely for reproduction and creatures are referred to by their reproductive sex, this is unchangeable without DFHack wizardry(unsure of possibility even then) or EXE alterations. Additionally in vanilla there are no physical features that distinguish male and female castes aside from facial hair(reproductive organs are abstracted away).
While the trans<x> castes are not really viable because of a lack of differentiation between gender/sex, genderfluid and hermaphrodite are somewhat. Using 2 castes (a MALE and FEMALE) you could make each one transform into the other for a timeframe, effectively allowing the beings to reproduce through either male or female methods. Unfortunately transforming into a new creature/caste gives a new appearance (hair might change color, nose change, etc), though I am unsure if doing so to the same one repeatedly will give consistent appearances.
Also, I'd like to, if possible, add the ability for any orphaned child or baby to be adopted by any childless couple in the fort (or a couple without a baby currently.)
This entirely beyond modding.
Welcome (back?) to the upper boards. I/We hope you enjoy your stay/visit.
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Just a note: "hermaphrodite" is considered an outdated, inaccurate term, and by some even a slur. A better term is 'intersex'.
That said, I do appreciate the effort; it might be a good idea however to do some research. Trans people (like myself as it happens) generally don't appreciate having their genitals referred to as the 'opposite sex'. I'm not gonna bore everyone here with current gender politics, esp. as the chance of it going smoothly on a video-game forum is slim to none.
One way to do it, imo, is that there'd be simply two categories for each dwarf instead of one: you'd have a M/F/? column, and a cis/trans/? column, with categories that aren't cis having a chance to have either type of reproductive system. This is very confusing; that is because we are trying to approximate a very complex system, with biological and societal basis, into a simplistic binary system.
A better system in fact would be to not disclose trans status and just give any couple a chance to be able to bear children or not, combined with giving dwarves the ability to occasionally switch their gender markers. That would be the most respectful and realistic way to portray gender diversity.
A third option would be to simply make up a completely new gender system because hey, they're dwarves, they live underground and run on alcohol, they're already far beyond the scope of a human-modelled society! I mean up to now they reproduced by bloody spores!
Of course, I doubt that's possible within the code. Not to mention I'm kinda unenthused about having to hear the average stereotypical gamer dude's thoughts and opinions on transgender people in their video games. (I'd love to be proven wrong though!) If you're interested in having a polite, respectful discussion about gender, do hit me up by private message - I'm perfectly willing to educate.
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Changing soul sex (which I guess you could call gender, but it isn't really due to how it doesn't recognize anything like that) just changes some lines in the description.
Actually, it may allow (for example) homosexual females to be attracted to a male-unitwise female-soulwise unit, but that's difficult to test.
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Some people will think this is stupid and unnecessary, but if you do, please don't comment because this isn't a topic I want to debate whether it fits, I want to talk about how best to do it.
bad publicity? You mean by being inclusive. I guess for the hate crowd that would be bad publicity, anyway that isn't something I wanted to discuss.
Not to mention I'm kinda unenthused about having to hear the average stereotypical gamer dude's thoughts and opinions on transgender people in their video games. (I'd love to be proven wrong though!)
These were a bit unnecessary, as people here will most likely discuss the limitations of modding, without being distracted by such discussions, except for you. :P
Here how it can be done, in a "fake" way.
Get a program that can write glyphs, which is what single letters/icons are called in fonts. Open the included ttf font and replace the Venus/Female and Mars/Male symbol with something you like, for example the female/male/trans symbol you posted. Now each ingame creature, regardless of gender, has this icon. Ignore that it can be male or female, just make both the same, and you now have a "gender" symbol.
Make a lot of castes, assign MALE and FEMALE tags in a 50/50 ratio.
Use insolors string dump replacer (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108721.0) to replace all mentions of "male" and "female", either be deleting them or adding something gender neutral. Replace all his and hes and hers and shes with he/she and him/her, to keep them gender neutral. Edit: Download link for string dump 40.19 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/3voxcgzxxnhupef/template.lng?dl=0) ready to be used. :)
Now make a new bodypart, call it "gender". Or sex. Or whatever word you like to use for it.
Now make new color descriptors, calling them "male", "female", "trans", "male sex-changed female", "cis" "whatever".
Assign these new bodyparts. Doesnt have to be something like an arm or a head, but more like a throat or gizzard or hair. Something that cant be hit by weapons and doesnt rot, etc, so it never shows up in any screens beside the description. It should work exactly like "his hair is brown.". "Her skin is tan." ... just that yours will read "His/Her gender is cis-male." "His/Her gender is female transgender male."
Now make assign these bodyparts with the fitting descriptor to each caste. Once for the officially MALE and once for the officially FEMALE castes. For realisms sake I'd leave out male-descriptions for officially FEMALE tagged castes, because otherwise they might give birth after marriage. Otherwise you can go wild, and make the wildest gender/sex combos. You also get lesbian, homo, hetero and all other combinations of marriages, although depending on how you set it up, the lesbians might still give birth.
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So devious :o
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Not really, that's pretty much how everyone adds any completely superfluous traits. See: cutie marks in pony mods. Actually, I would say that's probably one of the best examples around, since it's an insane amount of descriptors.
Also, I don't think it's very satisfying. It really doesn't... mean anything. Of course, this is primarily because gender isn't a thing in DF yet at all.
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That sounds like a good way to do things! Quick tip: singular "they" or "their" is much less clunky than "him/her" or "his/hers".
Ps. I won't belabor the point, but trust me, I've been in many a professional, reasonable seeming forum in my day that went sour very very quickly. Don't blame me for having low expectations! Though I must admit so far I am pleasantly surprised.
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The DF forum is weird. You could start a trolling thread about bashing cis-gendered femaleotastic daiquiri people and it would quickly evolve into some form of productive discussion. There is so little nonsense going on, that Toady as the sole moderator of the forum can handle the 40k+ members.
And yes, they/their fits better if it would only be about "their gender is X", but it will replace all instances of his and her in the description. Not sure if its out of place in some, the easiest way would be to test it.
When it comes to things not included in DF by choice its really only sex and pooping, both because the US public might disagree and cause negative publicity. There is code for yellow/brown filth and white substance in the raws though. But Toady One will probably ban anything that takes it that far, because of his moral code, the forum rules and the freedom that adv-mode offers when it comes to these things. Obok Meatgod would be the name, in case you want to google it.
Personally I'd be more interested in building a functioning sewer system for a fortress. After all there are sewers in Adv-mode, but seemingly no filth to go into them... building proper plumbing would be a challenge for a fort.
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There is so little nonsense going on, that Toady as the sole moderator of the forum can handle the 40k+ members.
To be fair, most of those members are kitchenbots :P.
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Another (clunky) option might be to make four dwarf castes, two male, two female. Basically, copy the castes we have now, but switch around the MALE/FEMALE on the copies.
Although that might just make it look like some dwarves shave their beards.
I also don't know how CHILD tags work with the MALE sex.
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In any case, a certain quote springs to mind: "It would be incredibly difficult and it probably wouldn't work...In other words, its absolutely dwarven!"
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That wouldnt work, because the tags are what defines their gender. You'd get two male castes and two females castes, just with half of them having beards, the other half without beards. The articles (he/she) and marriage/child birth behaviour would stay the same.
MALE creatures wont give birth, regardless of any child tags.
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Singular they is surprisingly versatile! I don't think anything would be lost by just dropping the gendered pronouns, honestly. Most important text refers to the dwarf by name or to their specific part ("Kadol Nozemgulam has claimed a Craftsdwarf's Wroshop!" "The *iron mace* hits Urist Zakulburom's left ear! The injured part explodes into gore!" etc.)
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That wouldnt work, because the tags are what defines their gender. You'd get two male castes and two females castes, just with half of them having beards, the other half without beards. The articles (he/she) and marriage/child birth behaviour would stay the same.
MALE creatures wont give birth, regardless of any child tags.
Oh, okay. Admittedly, I've never worked with castes before.
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Third gender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender) would be more appropriate for this time period imo.
You could always add creature castes, but this would imply a biological third sex, which is not the same as a third gender or transgender.
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Just a note: "hermaphrodite" is considered an outdated, inaccurate term, and by some even a slur. A better term is 'intersex'.
That said, I do appreciate the effort; it might be a good idea however to do some research. Trans people (like myself as it happens) generally don't appreciate having their genitals referred to as the 'opposite sex'. I'm not gonna bore everyone here with current gender politics, esp. as the chance of it going smoothly on a video-game forum is slim to none.
One way to do it, imo, is that there'd be simply two categories for each dwarf instead of one: you'd have a M/F/? column, and a cis/trans/? column, with categories that aren't cis having a chance to have either type of reproductive system. This is very confusing; that is because we are trying to approximate a very complex system, with biological and societal basis, into a simplistic binary system.
A better system in fact would be to not disclose trans status and just give any couple a chance to be able to bear children or not, combined with giving dwarves the ability to occasionally switch their gender markers. That would be the most respectful and realistic way to portray gender diversity.
A third option would be to simply make up a completely new gender system because hey, they're dwarves, they live underground and run on alcohol, they're already far beyond the scope of a human-modelled society! I mean up to now they reproduced by bloody spores!
Of course, I doubt that's possible within the code. Not to mention I'm kinda unenthused about having to hear the average stereotypical gamer dude's thoughts and opinions on transgender people in their video games. (I'd love to be proven wrong though!) If you're interested in having a polite, respectful discussion about gender, do hit me up by private message - I'm perfectly willing to educate.
Thanks you for correcting me! I always assumed intersex referred more to things like genderqueer and genderfluid. This is all newish to me, I am still learning, and I really appreciate it. :)
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Third gender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender) would be more appropriate for this time period imo.
You could always add creature castes, but this would imply a biological third sex, which is not the same as a third gender or transgender.
if I tried to do that, wouldn't I get it as the pronoun though?
Yea third gender might be best but then could I make them able to reproduce or would that be impossible.
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pronoun
I don't think DF has any pronouns other than the standard he/she. I don't know as to what ungendered castes are referred, though - might just be he? They, p'raps?
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"It".
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"It".
yea that would be pretty derogatory though.
They, them, their is a nightmare for me to look at grammatically, but is more appropriate.
Is there a way to mod that or hack it or something?
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The string replacer thingy, I guess, but that'd have side-effects. Nothing else I can think of.
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"It".
Perfect!
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If I recall, it's cross-culturally more common for a third gender to refer to themselves by feminine pronouns, if the language has gendered pronouns at all.
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If I recall, it's cross-culturally more common for a third gender to refer to themselves by feminine pronouns, if the language has gendered pronouns at all.
hmm I want it to have the other side as well, though I know it was more common to see transfemales than it was transmales. Not that they were or were not less common, it just was more commonly seen, and that was what is tied to things like Hijra.
I'd like to include it for both genders, so hmm.
Maybe there is a way to make the castes not reproduce at all, and then just at the transgender descriptor?
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Considering the code has does not share the transsexual concept of "gender identity," I don't think that you could do much beyond having male dwarves without beards. You'd have better luck making hermaphodites, though.
EDIT: Never mind.
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You'd havebetter luck making hermaphodites, though.
We've been over this. in this topic. That doesn't work at all. It's actually easier to make lame, fake transgendered people.
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What we really need is genderswitching.
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What we really need is genderswitching.
Thats easy. Happened to my dwarves often enough on accident, when I started to work with transformations. Just transform a male dwarf into a female dwarf, its super simple. It works like the werebeast transformation.
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Unless there were some changes in version .40 I am now aware of, DF genders can be male, female or neuter. Males always parter with females and vice versa, only female can bear children, neuter cannot reproduce and is referred to ingame as 'it'. Gender icons are tied to this system, meaning adding new ones is not an option.
If you want to add transgenders, this is what you got to work with. All I can think of is giving them separate creature descriptions and possibly caste names. There is no way to separate the he-she-it text from the reproductive bits so this will always be somewhat inconsistent.
I wouldn't expect this to be expanded upon either. Toady has so far made a policy of abstracting sexuality and reproduction to a high degree, in order to keep the uh... emerging possibilities and inevitable bad publicity at bay (and away from bay12, heheh).
er males do not always partner with females, that was changed in the recent version. homosexuality etc is in the game.
bad publicity? You mean by being inclusive. I guess for the hate crowd that would be bad publicity, anyway that isn't something I wanted to discuss.
Guess there were some changes made then.
Also it's not about inclusivity, its well, Obok Meatgod. Adding one thing to DF causes a myriad of possibilities to open up so once Toady were to add poop and sex, some pretty nasty and vile possibilities come up (just read Obok Meatgod if you want an example) which will inevitably end up in the press in the worst way possible.
I can't really blame Toady for dodging this one.
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Unless there were some changes in version .40 I am now aware of, DF genders can be male, female or neuter. Males always parter with females and vice versa, only female can bear children, neuter cannot reproduce and is referred to ingame as 'it'. Gender icons are tied to this system, meaning adding new ones is not an option.
If you want to add transgenders, this is what you got to work with. All I can think of is giving them separate creature descriptions and possibly caste names. There is no way to separate the he-she-it text from the reproductive bits so this will always be somewhat inconsistent.
I wouldn't expect this to be expanded upon either. Toady has so far made a policy of abstracting sexuality and reproduction to a high degree, in order to keep the uh... emerging possibilities and inevitable bad publicity at bay (and away from bay12, heheh).
er males do not always partner with females, that was changed in the recent version. homosexuality etc is in the game.
bad publicity? You mean by being inclusive. I guess for the hate crowd that would be bad publicity, anyway that isn't something I wanted to discuss.
Guess there were some changes made then.
Also it's not about inclusivity, its well, Obok Meatgod. Adding one thing to DF causes a myriad of possibilities to open up so once Toady were to add poop and sex, some pretty nasty and vile possibilities come up (just read Obok Meatgod if you want an example) which will inevitably end up in the press in the worst way possible.
I can't really blame Toady for dodging this one.
how would including transgender persons open up the doorway to rape and poop and sex (reproduction already exists and marriage and lovers exist for homosexual relationships.)
To go off of that thought you'd have to perceive transsexuals as inherently corrupt or bad or something, so I am not getting this.
Obok Meatgod was someone modding in rape. That doesn't even relate to this at all.
It's like saying, "We can't have dwarves with brown skin because it could be used for all kinds of bad things."
Anyway, I don't really want to get into an argument where someone tells me people are evil or deranged for being transsexuals and such. This isn't the platform for hate, it's a thread about modding this in.
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The problem with turning a male dwarf into a female dwarf is it changes them entirely and that isn't what I'm going for anyway.
What I was thinking maybe was male dwarves with no reproductive capabilities and no ability to grow a beard, so that the proper pronouns get used, no geldability, and a descriptor like with like "He is transgender." And do that for females also. Just a different caste. Is that possible, to remove reproduction. It seems like I can't do it in a way where the actual possible reproduction would happen so maybe just nixxing reproduction for the castes entirely.
I don't know how to do genderfluid or intersex. Since someone was saying it gets wonky if you add both the male and the female tags. And genderfluid is just not identifying with either gender or to some degree with both, so I would need to be able to get the game to use they, them, and their, because it is obviously not appropriate.
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On the technical side of things, I wonder if it would be an idea to see how gelding ends up affecting creatures once the full effects (i believe greater meat production and lessened territoriality were mentioned?) are implemented. If the changes aren't hardcoded and are instead customizable per creature/caste, it may be a way to easily implement physical gender transition without the complete overhaul that a transformation entails.
In the meantime, a workshop or reaction of some kind that uses some sort of unexplained *magic* to transform a dwarf into another gender with the side effect of change other characteristics of theirs.
Of course that only covers the physical side of things. Irl, there's also a very significant social aspect to transitioning that may or may not include the physical. However that'd be pretty hard to simulate in DF as there simply aren't any differing social behaviours between men and women in DF - female dwarves dress, look, behave the same as males; a dwarf's ability to wander into magma or throw a tantrum because their masterwork earring was destroyed is completely unaffected by their gender identity. The only example of gender differentiation among sentients that i can think of are elf princesses only being women.
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To go off of that thought you'd have to perceive transsexuals as inherently corrupt or bad or something, so I am not getting this.
Obok Meatgod was someone modding in rape. That doesn't even relate to this at all.
It's like saying, "We can't have dwarves with brown skin because it could be used for all kinds of bad things."
Anyway, I don't really want to get into an argument where someone tells me people are evil or deranged for being transsexuals and such. This isn't the platform for hate, it's a thread about modding this in.
You are doing it again. :P
He just mentioned that Toady is dodging a bullet by leaving sex and pooping out, he didnt say anything about transgenders or changing sexes. Obok Meatgod was adding in sexual reproductive organs, which caused the problem, because people have lots of freedom in this game. If you want to portray gender changes realisticly with the addition and consequent changing of these organs, then you open up the same freedom that lead to Obok Meatgod.
The point was not that transgenders are a problem, but that adding sex-related things might be abused.
No reproduction for male dwarves is very easy, there is a tag called STERILE in the raws. Just give them a self-targetted interaction that adds STERILE when you want them to, and you are all set.
If you want genderfluid, you can keep the he and she articles. "He is slim. He likes rock. He identifies as X". Same with she. You dont need to change their biological sex to influence their perception of gender in their description. This is much easier to do than adding a new sex (the hermaphrodite, male and female at the same time).
Edit: Ladygolem: You can change behaviour for males and females if you like. You can assign different values for personalities etc in each caste. See: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Personality_trait. Higher BRAVERY for males and higher SWAYED_BY_EMOTIONS for females and the like. :P (that was obviously satire, please dont get upset)
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The point was not that transgenders are a problem, but that adding sex-related things might be abused.
Here's the thing though - why do you consider transgender people inherently sex-related? No-one is adding reproductive organs, or the physical act of sexual intercourse. We're just discussing how to diversify what's already in the game. I'd really wish people would stop reducing transgender people to their genitals, or equating us with some strange, pornographic fantasy.
I'm just gonna ignore your 'satire' for now. (Pro tip: satire =/= saying something offensive and adding 'jk' at the end, no matter what trey Parker or Steven Colbert may tell you. But that is a discussion for another place and another time.)
Anyway, the issue is not simply making a trans woman unable to have children, it's making her able impregnate people with wombs the way a male would, without having the game refer to her as 'he'. And vice versa - a dwarf who's a trans man should be able to bear children without being misgendered.
PS. 'Transgender' and 'trans' are adjectives, not nouns. 'Transgender men', 'trans women', 'a person who is trans'.
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Technically, trans is a prefix, meaning something along the lines of "between" or "across".
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Anyway, gender has nothing to do with sex/organs. That's why it's not in the game. DF models (roughly) the sexes. The confusion stems from the word "gender" having two meanings: one being pussyfooting around the word "sex", and the other referring to a largely subjective topic that I will not attempt to describe in any detail lest I be reduced to straw and ashes.
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English is not my first language and I have no personal experience with anything gender/sex related and I honestly don't care for the entire issue. The only person who does not keep this about modding is you. I didnt consider transgender people to be sex-related, neither did Grimlocke. He said that sex and pooping is bad. You attacked him. I told you, "The point was not that transgenders are a problem, but that adding sex-related things might be abused. " You attacked me.
Again, the point was: Sex and Pooping = Bad. Transgender people = No problem.
Anyway, the issue is not simply making a trans woman unable to have children, it's making her able impregnate people with wombs the way a male would, without having the game refer to her as 'he'. And vice versa - a dwarf who's a trans man should be able to bear children without being misgendered.
I solved that in the first post I made. The other suggestions with sex-changes and sterility as well. I'm happy to help with modding related things, especially when it comes to projects that have never been done with DF before. But please stop lashing out at people.
Edit: no personal experience with anything gender/sex related
I just realize that this is poorly worded. Armok damn anyone who'd quote that without context. :P
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Technically, trans is a prefix.
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Anyway, gender has nothing to do with sex/organs. That's why it's not in the game. DF models (roughly) the sexes. The confusion stems from the word "gender" having two meanings: one being pussyfooting around the word "sex", and the other referring to a largely subjective topic that I will not attempt to describe in any detail lest I be reduced to straw and ashes.
Thank you for explaining to me, a trans woman, what gender is, and how I should use words to refer to myself. I really appreciate your input! ::)
@Meph: I'm not attacking or 'lashing out' at anyone. I mildly corrected some of the terminology you used, and challenged some of the extremely common misconceptions that are very common in our society. I recognize that many people don't have the opportunity to learn about gender outside of the very limited binary we are taught, and I am perfectly willing to help people learn; but you must understand that when you have to put up with this sort of thing every single day, both online and off, one's patience tends to wear a little thin.
While I agree the forum is for discussion of modding, in this specific case a discussion of gender terminology is relevant to the discussion at hand, much as a discussion of metallurgical techniques in the 14th century would be relevant when discussing a mod dealing with 14th century metallurgy.
I agree though, we all have better things to do than argue. I'm rather busy today, but when I get back I'll have a go at figuring out that string replacer technique and see if the result works at all satisfactorily.
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Much appreciated. :)
For the string dump replacer, you need to download the .exe that insolor posted, and replace the template.lng with the one I posted in my dropbox. Then put both into the same folder as your Dwarf Fortress.exe. Open template.lng, and you find a long list of words and sentences, about 25 thousand.
They look like this: |he is doing|he is doing|. The first one is what the game says now. The second one is what the game says AFTER you ran the .exe. So you only need to change the second line to what you want it to say.
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Ah, so it's the same tool linked in the localization thread?
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Yes, thats why I linked to it. When I said "string dump replacer" I did mean the "Dwarf Fortress localization patch". See http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108721.msg4175521#msg4175521
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Thank you for explaining to me, a trans woman, what gender is, and how I should use words to refer to myself. I really appreciate your input! ::)
@Meph: I'm not attacking or 'lashing out' at anyone.
I suppose it would be wise of me to refrain from pointing out the irony.
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Thank you for explaining to me, a trans woman, what gender is, and how I should use words to refer to myself. I really appreciate your input! ::)
@Meph: I'm not attacking or 'lashing out' at anyone.
I suppose it would be wise of me to refrain from pointing out the irony.
Let's stop, please.
I don't understand the string stuff, you are speaking a foreign language.
To add transgender persons, would I have to manually edit individual dwarves every time or is there a way to run a script to have a random element and have it work with that version of the game from then on.
I'm still not sure if reproduction as is appropriate to the person is or is out of the question. And if it is out of the question, how do you tag something as sterile?
Also, is there a way to turn the it pronoun into they?
So many questions and I feel like I'm not entirely understanding the answers.
Anyway, this isn't about the act of sex. I mean outside of body appropriate reproduction but that's not new to the game. There's no genitals being added, and I don't want to add in actual sex changes because it doesn't seem appropriate for the dwarves' technology level. I don't see hormones as possible either. But if you have a dwarf, that was born with male genitalia (in the abstract, obviously, I guess I need to say that again,) who identifies as female, they should be referred to as she and such, but if possible, still be able to reproduce as a male would (which, since there is no birth control in DF, would happen if they were transfemale and with a female. Once again, not modding in any actual sex.)
Intersex and genderfluid are also something I badly want. So being able to turn the it pronoun into they, if possible. I guess if it were to affect the whole game that would be acceptable (though they, them, and their drives me nuts for singular pronouns for anything but in these circumstances.)
I don't understand much about modding, so pretend you are explaining this to a child. Because this would be my first attempt at modding anything.
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Just to add to this, this started with a thread in the suggestions forum, and someone said one possibility is a third gender, such as hijra. But that is mostly, afaik, transwomen and excludes transmen. I am not sure if the feminine or the plural pronouns would be preferable for that. I would prefer a more inclusive selection of genders to run the full gamut, though.
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I don't understand the string stuff, you are speaking a foreign language.
Read the thread I linked to, the author explains it quite well.
To add transgender persons, would I have to manually edit individual dwarves every time or is there a way to run a script to have a random element and have it work with that version of the game from then on.
You'd have to do it manually for every DF version, but since the creature_standard.txt barely changes, its not much work. Most of the time it will be just copying your modded file into the new version. You need to regen a new world then.
I'm still not sure if reproduction as is appropriate to the person is or is out of the question. And if it is out of the question, how do you tag something as sterile?
I dont fully understand the question, but to make someone sterile you write an interaction, http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Interaction_token , that targets themselves and adds the tag STERILE with CE_ADD_TAG:
Also, is there a way to turn the it pronoun into they?
Yes, but only with the string dump replacer I mentioned earlier. Otherwise its hardcoded.
But if you have a dwarf, that was born with male genitalia (in the abstract, obviously, I guess I need to say that again,) who identifies as female, they should be referred to as she and such, but if possible, still be able to reproduce as a male would (which, since there is no birth control in DF, would happen if they were transfemale and with a female. Once again, not modding in any actual sex.)
You can either replace all he/she with they and add the gender-specific custom descriptions that I mentioned (see how hair or skin color is done in creature_standard.txt) or you can change their actual gender (replacing MALE with FEMALE), but that would result in changes to childbirth etc.
There is no way to have the game refer to a MALE creature with she, except if it should refer to all MALE creatures with she, or if you add gender as BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER, like hair or eye color. "He likes rock. His gender is female-identified."
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[CASTE:WORKER]
[CASTE_NAME:worker ant woman:worker ant women:worker ant woman]
Female, but non-breeding.
[POP_RATIO:10000]
[CASTE:SOLDIER]
[CASTE_NAME:soldier ant woman:soldier ant women:soldier ant woman]
Female, but non-breeding.
[POP_RATIO:1000]
[CASTE:DRONE]
[MALE]
[CASTE_NAME:drone ant man:drone ant men:drone ant man]
[POP_RATIO:5]
[CASTE:QUEEN]
[FEMALE]
[CASTE_NAME:queen ant woman:queen ant women:queen ant woman]
[POP_RATIO:1]
This is the caste list for ant_man and someone was saying the females that aren't tagged as females still use the female pronouns.
I'm wondering if there is something we are missing, since apparently the it pronoun also exists. hmm
edit: would the sterile token go in the raws or would it have to be done within the game to each individual dwarf?
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I'm sorry if my questions sound really dumb. I went to the link, btw, and downloaded the file, but I'm not 100% sure on what I am doing. I'll experiment a bit.
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would the sterile token go in the raws or would it have to be done within the game to each individual dwarf?
In the raws, into the castes that you want sterile.
If a creature lacks a gender tag, its automatically a "she". No real reason for that. For "it" you need to use NO_GENDER, instead of MALE or FEMALE. If you add both MALE and/or FEMALE and/or NO_GENDER, the last one will be taken, the rest ignored.
To make it a bit easier on you: This is my sterile code I use for priests. I wanted male priests and female nuns to be celibate, so I added it to their castes, I rewrote it a bit for you.
Put this into the caste you want to be sterile:
[CAN_DO_INTERACTION:STERILE_DWARVES]
[CDI:TARGET:A:SELF_ONLY]
[CDI:WAIT_PERIOD:100]
[CDI:FREE_ACTION]
Put this into your interaction_whatever.txt
[INTERACTION:STERILE_DWARVES]
[I_SOURCE:CREATURE_ACTION]
[I_TARGET:A:CREATURE]
[IT_CANNOT_TARGET_IF_ALREADY_AFFECTED][IT_CANNOT_HAVE_SYNDROME_CLASS:CELIBACY]
[IT_LOCATION:CONTEXT_CREATURE]
[I_EFFECT:ADD_SYNDROME]
[IE_TARGET:A]
[IE_IMMEDIATE]
[SYNDROME][SYN_CLASS:CELIBACY]
[CE_ADD_TAG:STERILE:START:0]
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Awesome, thank you. I looked at the program you linked and am running through template.lng
I found descriptors for the dwarves (and my guess would be also other sentients.) Do I have to replace one? Can I just add one? Is there anyway to add one and designate it for a specific caste and to always be there for that caste?
can the no_gender pronouns be changed to they them their?
It seems like the pronouns only get used in descriptions, and I am wondering if that can be used to my advantage.
oh and can this be added in a seperate file, or since the dwarf and human and other sentient races are in other raw files, would those files have to be directly modified?
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I hope you picked the template.lng I uploaded in my dropbox: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3voxcgzxxnhupef/template.lng?dl=0
I found descriptors for the dwarves (and my guess would be also other sentients.) Do I have to replace one? Can I just add one? Is there anyway to add one and designate it for a specific caste and to always be there for that caste?
The descriptors in the template.lng I'd leave alone, as they are used for every creature. You have to add new ones in the descriptor_shape_standard.txt, and add fitting parts into each caste. Its a bit complicated, but essentially you want to add a new thing called "gender" to each caste, just like they have descirptors of voice or eyes or hair. Thats NOT in the template.lng.
You can change the no_gender pronouns in the template.lng, by replacing the "it" with "they" for example.
You are not changing any Raws if you use the program, you are patching the .exe. You ALSO have to change the creature_standart.txt, but you can only change dwarves, you dont need to alter other creatures.
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okay just to clarify, regarding changing pronouns, the transfemale caste should be a female caste with either no ability to reproduce or the ability of males to reproduce. So, in either case, the first line of their description should be something like "She is transsexual and identifies as a female." or just "She is transfemale."
Same sexuality percentage preferences.
The tricky part seems to come from gender fluid and intersex.
Oh for intersex, assuming you had intersex dwarves that identified as female or male I could use that descriptor, as well, but have it be like "She is intersex, and identifies as female" with the ability to reproduce, since usually, intersex individuals have one working set of reproductive organs (both working is very rare, I think.)
But it seems like either I have to change all instances of it to they, or genderfluid won't work.
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well I want to add these as castes within the sentient races such as dwarves, humans and elves. It seems best to have them as separate castes. The problem is, if I have a dwarf raw in one file with two castes, and a dwarf raw in another file with two different castes, is that going to break the game or will they merge?
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You know, I think the easiest way would be this:
Ignore all the "he is" and "she is" and the entire string dump replace thingy, make a ton of castes (they go into the creature_standard.txt file, right under the normal MALE and FEMALE castes that already exists, AND NO WHERE ELSE!), and do it manually.
Because there is a caste description and you can just write word for word what you'd like. If you give me a list with the castes you want, I'd even do it. Its childs play, from a modders perspective. You just have to explain what exactly the titles mean, because I honestly dont know what sex a transfemale would have, or what exactly genderfluid or intersex means.
It would look something like this:
[CASTE:FEMALE]
[FEMALE]
[MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry.]
[CASTE:MALE]
[MALE]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry.]
[CASTE:FEMALE_FLUID]
[FEMALE]
[MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. This dwarf identifies as genderfluid.]
[CASTE:MALE_FLUID]
[MALE]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. This dwarf identifies as genderfluid.]
[CASTE:FEMALE_TRANS]
[FEMALE]
[MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. This dwarf identifies as male.]
[CASTE:MALE_TRANS]
[MALE]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. This dwarf identifies as female.]
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my one concern is I want to make this available to everyone and I was hoping I could get away with separate files just so that it's a copy and paste thing, and not a modding the raws thing.
Okay, intersex can mean someone has both sets of genitalia. AFAIK, the likelihood of both working is slim, so an intersex individual might identify as male or female and we could attach their working reproductive organs to that, easily enough. However, they could also identify as genderfluid, sort of in between, a third gender. The concept of a third gender exists in multiple culture (like Hijra as I mentioned) though usually for hijra it actually refers to transfemales, and they use the feminine pronoun. I believe. I haven't done too much homework on hijra itself, so this is based on light reading.
This dwarf identifies as transfemale or this dwarf identifies as transmale would be the lines you are looking for for transsexuals. Since we can't do a swap on reproductive abilities without having a gender that uses the pronouns for those reproductive organs, the castes should be sterile.
Note Intersex can also be someone who does have one set of genitalia but does not fit within the confines of the gender they identify with. This part is newer to me so if I make mistakes, I apologize in advance.
http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex
ambiguous genitalia as stated in the link is another example.
What this should translate to in dwarf fortress is merely "She is intersex, and identifies as female." It's important that the appropriate pronoun is used. the pronoun for what the individual identifies as is always used, never the pronoun that matches just their genitalia or reproductive abilities.
So intersex could also potentially be sterile.
in a description for a transfemale dwarf, there should never be him his or he. In the raws, they would have the [FEMALE] tag based on your advice, since otherwise it doesn't play out like that.
I really dislike having to use the sterile option, I just don't think I can modify it any other way. I wonder if I could use an external script with the castes themselves to make it possible for a female partner of transfemale and some genderfluid dwarves to potentially become pregnant.
genderfluid has to have the they them their pronouns. This seems like an all or nothing thing per your advice. I really want to add it, and as much as my grammar nazi mind freaks out seeing plural pronouns used in any other context, using they them their in place of it and its in all contexts seems like the best, if a clunky, solution.
So genderfluid would, frustratingly, have to have the [NO_GENDER] tag? Or did you say that uses the feminine? And then we have this problem where that caste wouldn't ever gain a lover or spouse due to sexuality not including non gendered individuals.
I am not 100% fluent in transgender and intersex issues, btw. So if I have said something wrong, hopefully someone can correct me.
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Well, you cant add a new gender to the game, there is only male, female and no gender (golems, contructs, demons, etc)
You can add descriptions, which are purely cosmetic.
You can replace all gender specific articles with gender neutral articles. But you cant have both. Male dwarf would be "they", female dwarf would be "they", and any other gender/sex would be "they". This is also purely cosmetic.
You can make anyone sterile as you like.
You cant get away with separate files. But you can still copy paste them into and replace the old files, no problem. Works with vanilla DF, doesnt work with other mods.
the pronoun for what the individual identifies as is always used, never the pronoun that matches just their genitalia or reproductive abilities.
That is fine and well in the real world, but that wouldnt work in DF. The player wouldnt notice, but the tags behind a female dwarf who identifies as male would be MALE. The dwarf would literally be a sterile male, shows ingame as male, with a notice "this dwarf is female, but identifies as male", and cant give birth. If thats fine with you, that would work.
I assume "it" for genderfluid people would be an insult? The "it" "It" and "its" are line 53, 54, and 59 in the string dump I uploaded. You can add "they/their" in its place.
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yes it would be very derogatory. I assume changing that will change all instances of it and then they would need the no_gender tag? I thought that used a feminine pronoun? Or if I just don't add a gender tag at all will that do it?
I wouldn't use "this dwarf is female, but identifies as male" because they aren't female, they are male. They have female reproductive organs, is all. Biologically, some research has been done on this and there are noticeable differences on some levels between a trans people and a cis-gendered people with the same reproductive organs. Also, saying they are female would be derogatory in and of itself. Really, even saying they are biologically female would be derogatory. So "He is transsexual and identifies as male" would be the best line.
For genderfluid, would they be able to get into relationships? Because with sexuality as it is, it doesn't seem like it would work.
oh I forgot to answer a question, yes tag them with the gender they indentify as. Since that seems to be the only way to get the system to use the proper pronouns. Which means they will have to be sterile.
I wonder if a script could affect that part.
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I believe NO_GENDER makes the game refer to the creature as 'it' which is worse :(
Other than that, smeeprocket, you're pretty much spot on in terms of representing trans people - I can see you've done your research! Best of luck with the project and let me know if you have any other questions.
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I believe NO_GENDER makes the game refer to the creature as 'it' which is worse :(
Other than that, smeeprocket, you're pretty much spot on in terms of representing trans people - I can see you've done your research! Best of luck with the project and let me know if you have any other questions.
Many thanks, it means a lot.
We were discussing changing instances of "it" to "they" universally.this will be grammatically incorrect in other instances, but will work fine for its purpose, which is to make sure genderfluid and such is represented properly (and I'll happily take the grammatical pain of seeing non gendered species referred to in plural for the benefit of having a more diverse range of genders.)
The problem now for me seems to be, would these genderfluid individuals be able to have relationships, because dwarven sexuality seems to be specifically bisexual, showing interest only in females, males, or both.
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The main problem with all this is that the game has no notion of gender whatsoever, so it's kinda trying to add an entirely new feature... which is usually pretty impossible. It's a tough nut to crack.
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yea I really really want to do this, though. If at all possible.
gender does seem very abstract.
One argument made against it is dwarves don't really have gender roles so a transperson wouldn't have societal roles to lean towards. But I think transgender individuals would still exist, as it is definitely biological.
There was a rather sick psychiatrist who ended up doing a study on a male patient. As an infant, during an attempted circumcision with a laser (jesus christ why a laser!?) his penis was cut off. The psychiatrist suggested the parents, who sought him out for counseling on the matter, have surgery done and treat the boy as if he were a girl.
This did not go well. He had a lot of psychological problems dealing with it. He was very much not female, regardless of any changes in genitals. The doctor kept telling them to continue doing this though, and tragically, it led to the boy's suicide when he was a young adult.
So there is more there than just societally enforced gender roles.
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The caveat is that dwarves aren't humans, and in most fantasy settings male and female dwarves are almost identical in appearance and behaviour. Tolkien's dwarven women have beards, and even more extremely, Discworld's dwarves are so alike, it's considered rude to ask someone's gender.
Toady's dwarves do have some sexual dimorphism (but even then, he gives the option of bearded women), and obviously only women bear children, but they all otherwise have the same physical stats, and they hack up goblin sieges, dodge into volcanos and kill people to make a legendary artifact exactly the same. Then again, gender roles and differences in general are not a thing yet, even among humans.
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but that was my point, it isn't about gender roles. Otherwise my story would have had a different ending.
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I was saying more, that dwarves wouldn't have the same biological sex-differences as humans, going by the standard fantasy lore. Though that can very well be subverted.
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Unless there were some changes in version .40 I am now aware of, DF genders can be male, female or neuter. Males always parter with females and vice versa, only female can bear children, neuter cannot reproduce and is referred to ingame as 'it'. Gender icons are tied to this system, meaning adding new ones is not an option.
If you want to add transgenders, this is what you got to work with. All I can think of is giving them separate creature descriptions and possibly caste names. There is no way to separate the he-she-it text from the reproductive bits so this will always be somewhat inconsistent.
I wouldn't expect this to be expanded upon either. Toady has so far made a policy of abstracting sexuality and reproduction to a high degree, in order to keep the uh... emerging possibilities and inevitable bad publicity at bay (and away from bay12, heheh).
er males do not always partner with females, that was changed in the recent version. homosexuality etc is in the game.
bad publicity? You mean by being inclusive. I guess for the hate crowd that would be bad publicity, anyway that isn't something I wanted to discuss.
Guess there were some changes made then.
Also it's not about inclusivity, its well, Obok Meatgod. Adding one thing to DF causes a myriad of possibilities to open up so once Toady were to add poop and sex, some pretty nasty and vile possibilities come up (just read Obok Meatgod if you want an example) which will inevitably end up in the press in the worst way possible.
I can't really blame Toady for dodging this one.
how would including transgender persons open up the doorway to rape and poop and sex (reproduction already exists and marriage and lovers exist for homosexual relationships.)
To go off of that thought you'd have to perceive transsexuals as inherently corrupt or bad or something, so I am not getting this.
Obok Meatgod was someone modding in rape. That doesn't even relate to this at all.
It's like saying, "We can't have dwarves with brown skin because it could be used for all kinds of bad things."
Anyway, I don't really want to get into an argument where someone tells me people are evil or deranged for being transsexuals and such. This isn't the platform for hate, it's a thread about modding this in.
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The problem with turning a male dwarf into a female dwarf is it changes them entirely and that isn't what I'm going for anyway.
What I was thinking maybe was male dwarves with no reproductive capabilities and no ability to grow a beard, so that the proper pronouns get used, no geldability, and a descriptor like with like "He is transgender." And do that for females also. Just a different caste. Is that possible, to remove reproduction. It seems like I can't do it in a way where the actual possible reproduction would happen so maybe just nixxing reproduction for the castes entirely.
I don't know how to do genderfluid or intersex. Since someone was saying it gets wonky if you add both the male and the female tags. And genderfluid is just not identifying with either gender or to some degree with both, so I would need to be able to get the game to use they, them, and their, because it is obviously not appropriate.
I'm staying out of these threads from now on. Explained facts about how a game works, suddenly am an evil person who thinks all deviants eat babies.
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I think the main flaw in the "adding something new" argument is, well, by adding the ability to differentiate between 'male' and 'female' dwarves, there already is one interpretation of the gender system. Here in the West, our culture treats the two as immutable opposites, with any 'deviance' seen as a bizarre exception; but to many other cultures, the decision to model only two possible sexes/genders would seem absurd.
And that's only within the human species; many creatures have more, or less genders than we do. Clownfish freely switch between the two based on circumstance; some species of lizard have no males and reproduce solely by parthenogenesis. Bees, for instance, in practice have three genders: worker, drone and queen; to assign that the worker and the queen are both the same sex, despite having very little in common, i s mostly testament to the fact that most scientists come from cultures that follow the Western binary, or have adopted it due to colonialism, globalization, etc.
Point being, genders beyond the simple 'cis man/cis woman' binary aren't 'extra' or 'superfluous'; 'male/female' isn't as default as you think, whether we're talking human culture or the animal kingdom at large.
My 'ideal' solution as such would be to simply remove references to gender altogether from sentient beings (it being sort of required in animal husbandry). Married couples could produce children or not depending on any number of factors - maybe they're sterile/infertile, maybe they simply don't feel like having kids - 'incompatible reproductive systems' would be just one of many such factors. An individual's gender as such would be open to interpretation; it's not like it has any affect on a dwarf's behaviour, abilities, or personality beyond that. I do recognize this perhaps may be a tad extreme to some but hey, the fact that I exist at all is considered extreme to some so I'm not too bothered by that.
If we're talking dwarf gender in other works, by the way, my favourite would have to be in the Glorantha setting. (King of Dragon Pass, etc.) Dwarves there were fashioned out of stone by an enormous creator god (Armok?) to maintain and preserve various massive machines, cities. etc. Each dwarf is made for a specific purpose, and is mad in such a way to reflect that. As such, they don't have 'sexes' or 'genders'; the specific 'equipment' one may have is seen as simply another way that dwarf has been specialized to their role. In DF terms, one would say a dwarf's primary identity, 'gender' even would be 'Engraver" or "Elite Macelord" or "Fishery Worker" if you're really, really unlucky.
PS. Grimlocke, no-one is calling you an evil baby-eater. Being called out on saying shitty things does not mean you are being 'attacked'. Just own up to your mistakes and apologize, maybe, or don't! I don't really care. This is sadly a very typical response and I simply do not have the energy to argue with people that don't care to listen.
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If by "saying shitty things" = "clearly making a simple misunderstandjng" then yes grimlocke is a massive dick. All the points grimlocke made pardon the sex/gender mixup which is an UNDERSTANDABLE mistake hold just fine.
Removing genders is a noble goal but let's face it. That won't work out well just yet. Maybe when this progresses in the real world it would be fine, but for now its just too much of a clusterfuck to stray too far from the norm in a game like this.
And before I get bashed to hell for saying this, I'm going to let smeep and such know I'm a LGBT supporting liberal progressive and have most friends see eye to eye on it, hell most of my friends ARE lgbt. I'm just getting that out there before I get chewet out for being a barbaric Victorian.
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I think the main flaw in the "adding something new" argument is, well, by adding the ability to differentiate between 'male' and 'female' dwarves, there already is one interpretation of the gender system. Here in the West, our culture treats the two as immutable opposites, with any 'deviance' seen as a bizarre exception; but to many other cultures, the decision to model only two possible sexes/genders would seem absurd.
And that's only within the human species; many creatures have more, or less genders than we do. Clownfish freely switch between the two based on circumstance; some species of lizard have no males and reproduce solely by parthenogenesis. Bees, for instance, in practice have three genders: worker, drone and queen; to assign that the worker and the queen are both the same sex, despite having very little in common, i s mostly testament to the fact that most scientists come from cultures that follow the Western binary, or have adopted it due to colonialism, globalization, etc.
Point being, genders beyond the simple 'cis man/cis woman' binary aren't 'extra' or 'superfluous'; 'male/female' isn't as default as you think, whether we're talking human culture or the animal kingdom at large.
My 'ideal' solution as such would be to simply remove references to gender altogether from sentient beings (it being sort of required in animal husbandry). Married couples could produce children or not depending on any number of factors - maybe they're sterile/infertile, maybe they simply don't feel like having kids - 'incompatible reproductive systems' would be just one of many such factors. An individual's gender as such would be open to interpretation; it's not like it has any affect on a dwarf's behaviour, abilities, or personality beyond that. I do recognize this perhaps may be a tad extreme to some but hey, the fact that I exist at all is considered extreme to some so I'm not too bothered by that.
If we're talking dwarf gender in other works, by the way, my favourite would have to be in the Glorantha setting. (King of Dragon Pass, etc.) Dwarves there were fashioned out of stone by an enormous creator god (Armok?) to maintain and preserve various massive machines, cities. etc. Each dwarf is made for a specific purpose, and is mad in such a way to reflect that. As such, they don't have 'sexes' or 'genders'; the specific 'equipment' one may have is seen as simply another way that dwarf has been specialized to their role. In DF terms, one would say a dwarf's primary identity, 'gender' even would be 'Engraver" or "Elite Macelord" or "Fishery Worker" if you're really, really unlucky.
PS. Grimlocke, no-one is calling you an evil baby-eater. Being called out on saying shitty things does not mean you are being 'attacked'. Just own up to your mistakes and apologize, maybe, or don't! I don't really care. This is sadly a very typical response and I simply do not have the energy to argue with people that don't care to listen.
So trying to help someone out by explaining how a game works and why is saying shitty things? I made a point out of just purely sticking to the games workings because I do not care for having discussions on the modding board like that. The only response I get is the OP putting words in my mouth and calling me some sort of bigoted arse, trying to put me up as a strawman for exactly that discussion.
The mistake I made is having dated information from version .34. Oops oh well, still playing catch-up for version .40 since I put DF on hiatus for quite some time.
For the bloody record, since everyone already made widespread assumptions about my opinions anyway, and since NOT explicitely stating this is apparently a way of getting nailed to a pole in the town square, I take zero issue with someone's gender or sexuality. They are things people are born with and which make up only a smaller part of their person. Whether they have a common garden variety of things or not, I don't frankly care. I judge people on their behaviour.
With that out of the way, you don't worry about any more 'shitty things' from me. Lord knows wouldn't want to offend someone with being wrong about the tissue layer system.
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Removing genders is going to be a pain, if possible, and it's redundant given that we already depict a society where every gender is completely equal
even though nursing mothers have no right dragging them and their children into the heat of battle. Ugh, liberals.
We do need hermaphrodites though, allow me to make a hermaphroditic race and I'll be happy.
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Hermaphrodite sex would be good because then I could make War giant slugs, which are yes
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The "shitty thing" was equating trans people with "sex and pooping and things like that", claiming that it would lead to "Obok Meatgod". That is pretty shitty. And anyway, why is everyone up in arms about this? All I literally said was "hey could you not do that it's gross and demeaning". Why do people treat that as a some sort of vicious personal slander? You're not a victim here, no-on e is attacking you, no-one is making you feel unsafe. Why does a marginalized person standing up for themselves inevitably get seen as a intrinsically hostile act? It's exhausting.
Anyway, can we not devolve this thread into an argument about people's hurt feelings? We're all adults here, let's get back to the matter at hand, which is modelling gender systems within the DF framework, please!
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The word "shit" is pretty vicious.
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By misunderstanding I think he thought gender = sex, which means adding genitals which means adding more details and the like. Anyways, I agree with getting this back on track if only because there's a lot of science potential.
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There is not much for science actually. As Putnam mentioned, there are no genders in the game, only biological sex. The only thing you can do is add a description for a fake-gender.
Grimlocke has done nothing wrong, and I'll abandon the thread now as well. Both Ladygolem and smeeprocket are hardly what I could call objective.
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The "shitty thing" was equating trans people with "sex and pooping and things like that", claiming that it would lead to "Obok Meatgod". That is pretty shitty. And anyway, why is everyone up in arms about this? All I literally said was "hey could you not do that it's gross and demeaning". Why do people treat that as a some sort of vicious personal slander? You're not a victim here, no-on e is attacking you, no-one is making you feel unsafe. Why does a marginalized person standing up for themselves inevitably get seen as a intrinsically hostile act? It's exhausting.
Anyway, can we not devolve this thread into an argument about people's hurt feelings? We're all adults here, let's get back to the matter at hand, which is modelling gender systems within the DF framework, please!
My first post detailed what turned out to be the .34 gender mechanics, and the reason why Toady tends to stay away from expanding on them very much.
That post got responded to by someone grossly misinterpreting that last part. In my second post I detailed that part a bit more in the hopes of resolving the misunderstanding and returning to some semblance of maturity.
Which in turn also got completely bent out of shape and made out to be something it was not, at which point the OP kinda ran me out of goodwill.
Where exactly is the part of my equating trans people to anything at all? How am I marginalizing anything by explaining how a game and its maker work?
I'm all for mature discussions, but I will not stand for being made out to be a thing I despise for things I did not say. There would be a less of these unpleasant arguments if you and the OP in particular carefully read what people write and not jump at ghosts when someone is just trying to help you.
p.s. thanks for staying sane under this Meph.
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I should go too.
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... By which I mean, why does this happen?
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guys,
the problem for me was, like for LadyGolem, the idea that this would be inherently bad or lead to problems when it is just including other genders besides the binary ones. If the problem was the perception I would be adding reproductive organs, that is not the case.
If you are accepting, and your intent was not inappropriate, that is fine. In between the quoted posts and now I just asked not to fight about it. It's just a difficult topic, because hostility and hate are a very real thing for transgendered persons, so just being sensitive to the issue is important. Also, it was clarified early in the thread that hermaphodite is derogatory, and intersex is more appropriate.
I don't know why everyone is leaving the thread, after the post grim posted (which was early in the thread) I just asked that we didn't fight about it, because I want to make this a reality.
So I have a few questions that hopefully someone can answer...
to change all instances of it, its, and itself, what line number are those on, I assume it is in the template file.
If I make a new file with the dwarf race but with different castes, will that cause the weird duplicate bugs, do I need to edit the current raws in the vanilla files instead?
Is it possible to make a genderless caste that would still be able to have relationships with other dwarves? I know they could probably get attracted, I'm just not sure about if other dwarves could get attracted to them.
There may be other questions, I just can't think of any atm.
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I'm not sure if hostility is the best way to deal with hostility.
...
In any case, a new dwarf entity file is likely to cause raw-dupe-bugs. I'm not really sure how it works, unfortunately. If you're concerned about portability, I'd suggest distributing two files - one which is effectively a "backup" entity file, the same as included with the default game, and a second which has been modified to include the new genderfluid/whatever castes. Alternatively, just plonk in a line explaining that all the user has to do is "delete X lines to return to default behaviour", or something similar.
AKAIK, attraction in DF is based around sex - so only MALE and FEMALE creatures are affected. A "genderless" caste would not be attracted to anyone, seeing as it doesn't have a sex and the attraction system is kinda ad-hoc at this point.
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If I make a new file with the dwarf race but with different castes, will that cause the weird duplicate bugs, do I need to edit the current raws in the vanilla files instead?
You'll need to edit the current raws in the vanilla files—I believe—unless you would rather simply cut the raws for the dwarves and paste them into a brand-new file. I personally don't understand your aversion to simply updating the current creature_standard file.
Is it possible to make a genderless caste that would still be able to have relationships with other dwarves? I know they could probably get attracted, I'm just not sure about if other dwarves could get attracted to them.
I don't think that the [ORIENTATION] token will allow one to be attracted to something without a gender.
Would it be possible to get an ETA on this mod?
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I'm not sure if hostility is the best way to deal with hostility.
...
In any case, a new dwarf entity file is likely to cause raw-dupe-bugs. I'm not really sure how it works, unfortunately. If you're concerned about portability, I'd suggest distributing two files - one which is effectively a "backup" entity file, the same as included with the default game, and a second which has been modified to include the new genderfluid/whatever castes. Alternatively, just plonk in a line explaining that all the user has to do is "delete X lines to return to default behaviour", or something similar.
AKAIK, attraction in DF is based around sex - so only MALE and FEMALE creatures are affected. A "genderless" caste would not be attracted to anyone, seeing as it doesn't have a sex and the attraction system is kinda ad-hoc at this point.
thank you, I appreciate the response.
now if I can find where its and it are hidden I can change those instances to they and their.
I think I have an idea of how to do this otherwise. It will be clunky, but it will have some semblance of working.
Putnam wrote me a script that gets orphans adopted by any couple randomly, so I can add that in too.
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If I make a new file with the dwarf race but with different castes, will that cause the weird duplicate bugs, do I need to edit the current raws in the vanilla files instead?
You'll need to edit the current raws in the vanilla files—I believe—unless you would rather simply cut the raws for the dwarves and paste them into a brand-new file. I personally don't understand your aversion to simply updating the current creature_standard file.
Is it possible to make a genderless caste that would still be able to have relationships with other dwarves? I know they could probably get attracted, I'm just not sure about if other dwarves could get attracted to them.
I don't think that the [ORIENTATION] token will allow one to be attracted to something without a gender.
Would it be possible to get an ETA on this mod?
as soon as I can figure it out, which shouldn't be long, if it is working, maybe tonight or tomorrow. I am not entirely sure how to edit the frequency of transgender and genderfluid occurring, though.
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If I make a new file with the dwarf race but with different castes, will that cause the weird duplicate bugs, do I need to edit the current raws in the vanilla files instead?
You'll need to edit the current raws in the vanilla files—I believe—unless you would rather simply cut the raws for the dwarves and paste them into a brand-new file. I personally don't understand your aversion to simply updating the current creature_standard file.
Is it possible to make a genderless caste that would still be able to have relationships with other dwarves? I know they could probably get attracted, I'm just not sure about if other dwarves could get attracted to them.
I don't think that the [ORIENTATION] token will allow one to be attracted to something without a gender.
Would it be possible to get an ETA on this mod?
as soon as I can figure it out, which shouldn't be long, if it is working, maybe tonight or tomorrow. I am not entirely sure how to edit the frequency of transgender and genderfluid occurring, though.
If it's all caste-based, the [POP_RATIO] token ought help control their populations.
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this is what I have for the genders, I moved the description tag to inside the castes, I am not sure if that will make each description specific to each caste or if it will cause problems
[CASTE:FEMALE]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry.]
The gender tag lets it know how breeding works.
[FEMALE]
[MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE]
To add beards, put square brackets around the following:
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[CASTE:MALE]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry.]
[MALE]
[SET_BP_GROUP:BY_TYPE:LOWERBODY][BP_ADD_TYPE:GELDABLE]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[CASTE:TRANS_FEMALE]
The gender tag lets it know how breeding works.
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. She is transsexual, and identifies as female.]
[FEMALE]
[SET_BP_GROUP:BY_TYPE:LOWERBODY][BP_ADD_TYPE:GELDABLE]
[STERILE]
To add beards, put square brackets around the following:
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[CASTE:TRANS_MALE]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. He is transsexual, and identifies as male.]
[MALE]
[STERILE]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[CASTE:GENDERFLUID]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. This dwarf indentifies as genderfluid.]
[NO_GENDER]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[CASTE:INTERSEX_GENDERFLUID]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. This dwarf is intersex and indentifies as genderfluid.]
[NO_GENDER]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[CASTE:INTERSEX_FEMALE]
The gender tag lets it know how breeding works.
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. She is intersex, and identifies as female.]
[FEMALE]
[STERILE]
To add beards, put square brackets around the following:
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[CASTE:INTERSEX_MALE]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. He is intersex, and identifies as male.]
[MALE]
[STERILE]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
I've given everyone beards because all dwarves should have beards and it makes more sense, because I'm not sure who would or wouldn't have beards otherwise with genderfluid and intersex.
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If I make a new file with the dwarf race but with different castes, will that cause the weird duplicate bugs, do I need to edit the current raws in the vanilla files instead?
You'll need to edit the current raws in the vanilla files—I believe—unless you would rather simply cut the raws for the dwarves and paste them into a brand-new file. I personally don't understand your aversion to simply updating the current creature_standard file.
Is it possible to make a genderless caste that would still be able to have relationships with other dwarves? I know they could probably get attracted, I'm just not sure about if other dwarves could get attracted to them.
I don't think that the [ORIENTATION] token will allow one to be attracted to something without a gender.
Would it be possible to get an ETA on this mod?
as soon as I can figure it out, which shouldn't be long, if it is working, maybe tonight or tomorrow. I am not entirely sure how to edit the frequency of transgender and genderfluid occurring, though.
If it's all caste-based, the [POP_RATIO] token ought help control their populations.
How does the pop_ratio number work? And would it be added inside the caste tags? Would I need to add them to male and female castes also?
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If I make a new file with the dwarf race but with different castes, will that cause the weird duplicate bugs, do I need to edit the current raws in the vanilla files instead?
You'll need to edit the current raws in the vanilla files—I believe—unless you would rather simply cut the raws for the dwarves and paste them into a brand-new file. I personally don't understand your aversion to simply updating the current creature_standard file.
Is it possible to make a genderless caste that would still be able to have relationships with other dwarves? I know they could probably get attracted, I'm just not sure about if other dwarves could get attracted to them.
I don't think that the [ORIENTATION] token will allow one to be attracted to something without a gender.
Would it be possible to get an ETA on this mod?
as soon as I can figure it out, which shouldn't be long, if it is working, maybe tonight or tomorrow. I am not entirely sure how to edit the frequency of transgender and genderfluid occurring, though.
If it's all caste-based, the [POP_RATIO] token ought help control their populations.
How does the pop_ratio number work? And would it be added inside the caste tags? Would I need to add them to male and female castes also?
The lower the number, the rarer the caste. I'm not sure what it defaults to, though it might be wise to add them to the normal dwarves just so that you can be sure that you get the ratio you desire.
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what is the max, is it percentage based? so if I put 50 by female, and 60 by male, it would be half and half?
So I would put maybe 45 by female, 45 by male, and divy the rest up?
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[CASTE:FEMALE]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry.]
The gender tag lets it know how breeding works.
[FEMALE]
[MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE]
To add beards, put square brackets around the following:
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[POP_RATIO:47]
[CASTE:MALE]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry.]
[MALE]
[SET_BP_GROUP:BY_TYPE:LOWERBODY][BP_ADD_TYPE:GELDABLE]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[POP_RATIO:47]
[CASTE:TRANS_FEMALE]
The gender tag lets it know how breeding works.
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. She is transsexual, and identifies as female.]
[FEMALE]
[SET_BP_GROUP:BY_TYPE:LOWERBODY][BP_ADD_TYPE:GELDABLE]
[STERILE]
To add beards, put square brackets around the following:
[POP_RATIO:1]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[CASTE:TRANS_MALE]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. He is transsexual, and identifies as male.]
[MALE]
[STERILE]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[POP_RATIO:1]
[CASTE:GENDERFLUID]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. This dwarf indentifies as genderfluid.]
[NO_GENDER]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[POP_RATIO:1]
[CASTE:INTERSEX_GENDERFLUID]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. This dwarf is intersex and indentifies as genderfluid.]
[NO_GENDER]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[POP_RATIO:1]
[CASTE:INTERSEX_FEMALE]
The gender tag lets it know how breeding works.
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. She is intersex, and identifies as female.]
[FEMALE]
[SET_BP_GROUP:BY_TYPE:LOWERBODY][BP_ADD_TYPE:GELDABLE]
[STERILE]
To add beards, put square brackets around the following:
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[POP_RATIO:1]
[CASTE:INTERSEX_MALE]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. He is intersex, and identifies as male.]
[MALE]
[STERILE]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[POP_RATIO:1]
So this is with pop ratio, I am wondering if this is too common, but I would rather overestimate than underestimate.
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what is the max, is it percentage based? so if I put 50 by female, and 60 by male, it would be half and half?
So I would put maybe 45 by female, 45 by male, and divy the rest up?
I don't think that it's a percentage; you'll probably want the ordinary dwarves' ratios higher than that.
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okay do you know where the pronouns for the [NO_GENDER] tag is stored, by chance? I couldn't find it in template.lng
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what is the max, is it percentage based? so if I put 50 by female, and 60 by male, it would be half and half?
So I would put maybe 45 by female, 45 by male, and divy the rest up?
It's ratio based, as the name suggests. If you have all of the amounts being 1, they'll all be equally common. If you make one of them 2, that one will be twice as common as the rest. Some examples with 4 castes:
25,25,25,25: all equally common
50,50,50,50: all equally common
75,25,50,50: second one appears only 12.5%, first one 37.5%, third and fourth 25% each
10000000,10000000,10000000,1: fourth one will only appear less than 0.00000004% of the time, rest are equal with each other.
And so on.
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ahh okay, so looking back meph said sterility requires an interaction so I have a new interaction file and then this is my current castes:
[CASTE:FEMALE]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry.]
The gender tag lets it know how breeding works.
[FEMALE]
[MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE]
To add beards, put square brackets around the following:
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[POP_RATIO:500]
[CASTE:MALE]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry.]
[MALE]
[SET_BP_GROUP:BY_TYPE:LOWERBODY][BP_ADD_TYPE:GELDABLE]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[POP_RATIO:500]
[CASTE:TRANS_FEMALE]
The gender tag lets it know how breeding works.
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. She is transsexual, and identifies as female.]
[FEMALE]
[SET_BP_GROUP:BY_TYPE:LOWERBODY][BP_ADD_TYPE:GELDABLE]
[CAN_DO_INTERACTION:STERILE_DWARVES]
[CDI:TARGET:A:SELF_ONLY]
[CDI:WAIT_PERIOD:100]
[CDI:FREE_ACTION]
To add beards, put square brackets around the following:
[POP_RATIO:1]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[CASTE:TRANS_MALE]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. He is transsexual, and identifies as male.]
[MALE]
[CAN_DO_INTERACTION:STERILE_DWARVES]
[CDI:TARGET:A:SELF_ONLY]
[CDI:WAIT_PERIOD:100]
[CDI:FREE_ACTION]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[POP_RATIO:1]
[CASTE:GENDERFLUID]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. This dwarf indentifies as genderfluid.]
[NO_GENDER]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[POP_RATIO:1]
[CASTE:INTERSEX_GENDERFLUID]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. This dwarf is intersex and indentifies as genderfluid.]
[NO_GENDER]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[POP_RATIO:1]
[CASTE:INTERSEX_FEMALE]
The gender tag lets it know how breeding works.
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. She is intersex, and identifies as female.]
[FEMALE]
[CAN_DO_INTERACTION:STERILE_DWARVES]
[CDI:TARGET:A:SELF_ONLY]
[CDI:WAIT_PERIOD:100]
[CDI:FREE_ACTION]
To add beards, put square brackets around the following:
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[POP_RATIO:1]
[CASTE:INTERSEX_MALE]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. He is intersex, and identifies as male.]
[MALE]
[CAN_DO_INTERACTION:STERILE_DWARVES]
[CDI:TARGET:A:SELF_ONLY]
[CDI:WAIT_PERIOD:100]
[CDI:FREE_ACTION]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[POP_RATIO:1]
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okay do you know where the pronouns for the [NO_GENDER] tag is stored, by chance? I couldn't find it in template.lng
I don't know where this template.lng file is.
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It's part of the localization patch.
The pronouns are simply "it".
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where is that file stored?
if it's the zip that makes a new version of DF, which instance of it is it? There are a few.
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I don't know much about editing the actual text of the game. Nevertheless, it should be pretty usable with the new castes, albeit with the non-preferred pronouns.
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yea the pronouns are important or I'll just have to remove the genderfluid castes
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yea the pronouns are important or I'll just have to remove the genderfluid castes
Perhaps the genderfluid castes could be phase two of this project, with the transsexual dwarves coming out first.
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yea the pronouns are important or I'll just have to remove the genderfluid castes
Perhaps the genderfluid castes could be phase two of this project, with the transsexual dwarves coming out first.
well, if this localization patch has the pronouns in there, I just need to figure out which reference it is (there are several it|it, as well as an itself|itself that may be related)
I am not sure if the description text will work but that is easy enough to test.
I'll be adding these for humans, dwarves, and elves if I can get it functioning.
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I think the localization patch might be a utility. Do you have it?
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I do, it has a file, template.lng with this stuff, I am just trying to isolate what I need to change or add.
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I do, it has a file, template.lng with this stuff, I am just trying to isolate what I need to change or add.
I don't have it; could you post the contents of the file onto the thread so that I can see them?
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https://www.dropbox.com/s/3voxcgzxxnhupef/template.lng?dl=0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108721.0
I tried changing all gender references to the plural pronouns, but that doesn't seem to work.
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I'm not even sure which instances of "it" are for sexless creatures and which are for things such as beds and crossbow bolts.
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yea I changed them all and it did nothing for the genderfluid dwarves.
Here is the zip for the ones that aren't genderfluid, it adds them to humans, dwarves, and elves, and unfortunately they have to be sterile. It doesn't seem to add them to adventure mode, sadly.
Or if it does, it is not possible to tell, since it only differentiates by the gender sign.
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=10204
edit: just tested in adventure mode, it definitely does not affect it.
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https://www.dropbox.com/s/3voxcgzxxnhupef/template.lng?dl=0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108721.0
I tried changing all gender references to the plural pronouns, but that doesn't seem to work.
Did you run the actual program?
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https://www.dropbox.com/s/3voxcgzxxnhupef/template.lng?dl=0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108721.0
I tried changing all gender references to the plural pronouns, but that doesn't seem to work.
Did you run the actual program?
I ran it and it created the template file and the secondary df.exe, do I run it everytime I change something then?
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Yes.
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yea none of the it or its changed the gender pronoun for no_gender. I even tried adding one in the same section as he|he etc
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Smeeprocket, I must extend my dearest thanks to you for putting together this project. I have no doubt that it will offer me an endless source of fun.
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While I probably won't actually add this, I just wanted to the the time to give you real props for getting this together, I saw you had a working release on DFFD. I'll definitely be keeping tabs. I think its a cool project.
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okay I finally got what meph was trying to tell me. So the link I posted now has genderfluid and intersex genderfluid, though some of the description verbs are inappropriate, which I may work on as I get better at modding.
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I'm just going to take a moment to apologize to Grimlocke. I thought you were just perceiving transgendered and intersex persons as a wholly sexual thing or depraved in and of themselves.
Now, I see though, that you were just acutely aware of the potential for budding and not yet ready for real life psychopaths to do deranged things virtually.
I don't regret making the mod, because, one could commit violence against gay NPCs just as readily, but I am now a little bit wiser to the lowest common denominator in the equation.
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Really there's nothing preventing a particularly psychopathic individual from already relating traits they disfavor for whatever deranged reason to their video game victims. It's not as if it's hard to imagine what you want about your dorfs. lol.
I wouldn't let such concerns waste more of your time than they already have.
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yea, it definitely has made me more than a little queasy, though.
Most people on this forum are civil and sane, regardless of whether I always agree with them or not.
So that was very unexpected.
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Smeeprocket, I must extend my dearest thanks to you for putting together this project. I have no doubt that it will offer me an endless source of fun.
I removed the thread created by Gnorm as concerns the quote above. Gnorm has also been removed.
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Smeeprocket, I must extend my dearest thanks to you for putting together this project. I have no doubt that it will offer me an endless source of fun.
I removed the thread created by Gnorm as concerns the quote above. Gnorm has also been removed.
Thank you Toady, that whole thread made me sick.
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okay so today I am going to hunt down the descriptor text for dwarves and such, and figure out a way to modify it a bit for just genderfluid castes, since grammatically there are some errors that are driving me nuts.
Further testing shows messages in the errorlog regarding the sterility. SO you may end up with pregnant transwomen, and transmen fathering children. I am working on that.
I'm also having a ton of problems with the addition of genderfluid causing a cut off in the description of gendered dwarves. So I don't consider this working really. I am trying to trouble shoot it but I have very little idea what I am doing with it.
I did fix sterility though, or meph fixed it, to be specific.
I may not be able to change the grammar for genderfluid descriptions, however.
Edit: Okay had to nix genderfluid for now, will continue to try to get it to work.
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If you need assistance troubleshooting I can download the mod and run some tests, feeling kind of bored today and don't want to actually do work.
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If you need assistance troubleshooting I can download the mod and run some tests, feeling kind of bored today and don't want to actually do work.
The hurdle is that the string-dump for insolors localization patcher for 40.19 doesnt work correctly, even if I'm fairly certain that I did it right. :-\
The raws look good for now, but if you could figure out whats up with the string-dump, more than just this project would benefit from it.
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If you need assistance troubleshooting I can download the mod and run some tests, feeling kind of bored today and don't want to actually do work.
The hurdle is that the string-dump for insolors localization patcher for 40.19 doesnt work correctly, even if I'm fairly certain that I did it right. :-\
The raws look good for now, but if you could figure out whats up with the string-dump, more than just this project would benefit from it.
Well fat chance of that :P I'll see what I can do though.
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I've contacted Insolor directly, btw. Just haven't received a response.
It was a really weird bug that didn't seem to happen in the way I would have expected for a string in the wrong place.
Genderfluid individuals (no_gender tag) had a complete description. The lines for it were all there.
But any gendered creature of any kind had the raw description, then "Her" or "His" and nothing else.
But if something was out of place, why would it then work for the genderfluid dwarves?
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So why'll I sit on my thumbs and hope for a solution to this string problem, I can't help but be frustrated with the genderfluid dwarves being incapable of forming relationships.
It just seems like there should be some way to at least construct a script that would... hmm, maybe make other dwarves perceive them as male or female, thereby allowing them to have relationships.
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So why'll I sit on my thumbs and hope for a solution to this string problem, I can't help but be frustrated with the genderfluid dwarves being incapable of forming relationships.
It just seems like there should be some way to at least construct a script that would... hmm, maybe make other dwarves perceive them as male or female, thereby allowing them to have relationships.
Might be possible with DFhack, though I don't know enough about DFhack to provide you with any real useful advice. But I have heard accounts of people who were able to do things ridiculous with DFhack, like swap a spawned creature's identity with a diety, or change a creature's status from dead to alive (although the corpse was still there, the creature respawned). If you can do that, I don't see why you can't change a dwarve's relationship status. I think that's definately possible; I think there was a script that forced dwarves to pair up regardless of sexual preferences or age posted a while back.
The hard part would be ensuring that the script only generates relationships intelligently and not just purely randomly.
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yea, it would have to be something that worked off of friendships the dwarf has, and then tricked the potential partner into identifying that dwarf as their preferred gender. Then the relationship should exist or not exist organically.
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Okay update. It looks like, per Insolor, the problem is with the replacement for it and its, being they and there, respectively, being too long. It's not something that can be changed, unfortunately.
I don't know where the actual quote is, but this seems relevant and interesting also:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=146246.msg5866679#msg5866679
I apologize on behalf of like multiple people in that thread, because they certainly won't.
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real life psychopaths to do deranged things virtually.
I will never understand the tentative grasp on reality that people have who are offended by fiction, or those who can claim a fictional, imaginary act can even have morality.
...
Maybe I am confused or missing the point, but how can a society without any sort of gender roles have non surgical trans people?
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Nice mod, though I wouldn't download as I honestly don't think a medieval society would have the concept of transsexual yet.
Any reason why you added them?
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Trans people play the game. You don't need any more reason than that. You might as well ask why the game has such a wide range of skin colors or hair lengths. Those things have no mechanical effect, but are still included.
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real life psychopaths to do deranged things virtually.
I will never understand the tentative grasp on reality that people have who are offended by fiction, or those who can claim a fictional, imaginary act can even have morality.
...
Maybe I am confused or missing the point, but how can a society without any sort of gender roles have non surgical trans people?
when violence rates for a group of people is as ridiculously high as it is for transpeople, making that kind of fiction isn't okay.
I know some people like to act like nothing said or written should ever be offensive or judged, but I find that everyone has something that will hurt them. When rape and murder are a very real threat if anyone finds out you are what you are, that shit isn't very funny.
People will specifically out trans people for just this, You have 4chan forming groups of people to try and get trans people to kill themselves. There are facebook groups dedicated to outting trans people to further encourage violence.
It really only takes a basic grasp on empathy to understand why this would be wrong, and why the intent of someone doing this would make them a fundamentally bad person.
The whole internet sociopath-y embraced by 4chan and reddit needs to go away. There are real, live people behind the screens.
gender roles and gender identity are different. Also, DF has some rudimentary gender roles, the mother takes care of the infant until after one year for example. The father won't pick the baby up if the mother dies and it is crawling around.
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Nice mod, though I wouldn't download as I honestly don't think a medieval society would have the concept of transsexual yet.
Any reason why you added them?
transpeople have always existed. It's not something someone picks up, you are born that way. So yea, medieval society had them, they just staid well hidden, assuming you don't look at some native american or indian societies that had third and fourth genders.
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(removed some posts)
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Nice mod, though I wouldn't download as I honestly don't think a medieval society would have the concept of transsexual yet.
Any reason why you added them?
transpeople have always existed. It's not something someone picks up, you are born that way. So yea, medieval society had them, they just staid well hidden, assuming you don't look at some native american or indian societies that had third and fourth genders.
Nah, what I was saying was that in a medieval society, most gays and transsexuals usually just... married the other gender and didn't act on their impulses on the belief that it was unnatural. The society and indeed the people had no concept of a non-straight person.
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Nice mod, though I wouldn't download as I honestly don't think a medieval society would have the concept of transsexual yet.
Any reason why you added them?
transpeople have always existed. It's not something someone picks up, you are born that way. So yea, medieval society had them, they just staid well hidden, assuming you don't look at some native american or indian societies that had third and fourth genders.
Nah, what I was saying was that in a medieval society, most gays and transsexuals usually just... married the other gender and didn't act on their impulses on the belief that it was unnatural. The society and indeed the people had no concept of a non-straight person.
they did, and it was accepted in some circles. For the most part, it was just considered abhorrent. That doesn't mean that they weren't there.
Dwarves don't really follow European medieval conventions in that sense. They have no dogma condemning such things.
I feel that, as I mentioned with children, there are gender roles, such that I would assume there are small bit of gender identity. But part of it is also about being inclusive. Including people is always a good thing. Dwarves also have no prejudices towards different skin colors, so I don't think they would suppress transgenders and homosexuals.
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They also have no prejudices against homosexuals in-game, so
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Nice mod, though I wouldn't download as I honestly don't think a medieval society would have the concept of transsexual yet.
Any reason why you added them?
transpeople have always existed. It's not something someone picks up, you are born that way. So yea, medieval society had them, they just staid well hidden, assuming you don't look at some native american or indian societies that had third and fourth genders.
Nah, what I was saying was that in a medieval society, most gays and transsexuals usually just... married the other gender and didn't act on their impulses on the belief that it was unnatural. The society and indeed the people had no concept of a non-straight person.
they did, and it was accepted in some circles. For the most part, it was just considered abhorrent. That doesn't mean that they weren't there.
Dwarves don't really follow European medieval conventions in that sense. They have no dogma condemning such things.
I feel that, as I mentioned with children, there are gender roles, such that I would assume there are small bit of gender identity. But part of it is also about being inclusive. Including people is always a good thing. Dwarves also have no prejudices towards different skin colors, so I don't think they would suppress transgenders and homosexuals.
a) I didn't know that, huh.
b) I NEVER said they didn't exist.
c) While the "not-following-conventions" thing is true... well, I've always considered them a somewhat conservative race. Of course, we don't know, as Toady One will never add this, but suppression seems like the sort of thing they would do.
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Nice mod, though I wouldn't download as I honestly don't think a medieval society would have the concept of transsexual yet.
Any reason why you added them?
transpeople have always existed. It's not something someone picks up, you are born that way. So yea, medieval society had them, they just staid well hidden, assuming you don't look at some native american or indian societies that had third and fourth genders.
Nah, what I was saying was that in a medieval society, most gays and transsexuals usually just... married the other gender and didn't act on their impulses on the belief that it was unnatural. The society and indeed the people had no concept of a non-straight person.
they did, and it was accepted in some circles. For the most part, it was just considered abhorrent. That doesn't mean that they weren't there.
Dwarves don't really follow European medieval conventions in that sense. They have no dogma condemning such things.
I feel that, as I mentioned with children, there are gender roles, such that I would assume there are small bit of gender identity. But part of it is also about being inclusive. Including people is always a good thing. Dwarves also have no prejudices towards different skin colors, so I don't think they would suppress transgenders and homosexuals.
a) I didn't know that, huh.
b) I NEVER said they didn't exist.
c) While the "not-following-conventions" thing is true... well, I've always considered them a somewhat conservative race. Of course, we don't know, as Toady One will never add this, but suppression seems like the sort of thing they would do.
they seem to have no problem with homosexuality, I don't know why they would have a problem with trans people. That's not written into their code.
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Nice mod, though I wouldn't download as I honestly don't think a medieval society would have the concept of transsexual yet.
Any reason why you added them?
transpeople have always existed. It's not something someone picks up, you are born that way. So yea, medieval society had them, they just staid well hidden, assuming you don't look at some native american or indian societies that had third and fourth genders.
Nah, what I was saying was that in a medieval society, most gays and transsexuals usually just... married the other gender and didn't act on their impulses on the belief that it was unnatural. The society and indeed the people had no concept of a non-straight person.
they did, and it was accepted in some circles. For the most part, it was just considered abhorrent. That doesn't mean that they weren't there.
Dwarves don't really follow European medieval conventions in that sense. They have no dogma condemning such things.
I feel that, as I mentioned with children, there are gender roles, such that I would assume there are small bit of gender identity. But part of it is also about being inclusive. Including people is always a good thing. Dwarves also have no prejudices towards different skin colors, so I don't think they would suppress transgenders and homosexuals.
a) I didn't know that, huh.
b) I NEVER said they didn't exist.
c) While the "not-following-conventions" thing is true... well, I've always considered them a somewhat conservative race. Of course, we don't know, as Toady One will never add this, but suppression seems like the sort of thing they would do.
they seem to have no problem with homosexuality, I don't know why they would have a problem with trans people. That's not written into their code.
I meant just in my perception of them, not ingame.
*Sigh* Why in the name of Christ do I bother? I knew that on as sensitive a topic as this any comment would be foolish.
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Mostly it's a problem with the fact that your perception is kinda irrelevant when we're talking about the game...
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I didn't feel like I was being defensive in that post. :?.
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I know Putnam, I just made the reference to try to make "b) I NEVER said they didn't exist" seem less rude.
Defensive, smeeprocket? Huh?
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DF has some rudimentary gender roles, the mother takes care of the infant until after one year for example. The father won't pick the baby up if the mother dies and it is crawling around.
I thought it was whoever has the child holds the baby?
Somewhat related: I've tested and put into practice same-sex childbearing (male and female). The game seems to handle it very well, with the relationship screen saying "father" for both parents (for example, mother also works) and one parent taking care of the baby pretty elegantly.
And yeah, the separation of sex and gender would be good. It should probably wait until the family unit is more... considered. Right now it's "person who gives birth (regardless of sex) carries the baby around" (Yeah, I tested male childbirth. It works, as long as they're a female for the birth).
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I think the attributing conservatism comes from their portrayals by Tolkien and Gygax. They were depicted as valuing family and tradition, and were sort of dour. That matches the image that social conservatives have, but it doesn't mean that they share the same traditions or beliefs. Their roots in mythology and religion depict something very different. The dvergr have many stories that might remind you more of faeries, goblins, or cyclopes.
<_<
>_>
I guess I'm kind of late. :<
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DF has some rudimentary gender roles, the mother takes care of the infant until after one year for example. The father won't pick the baby up if the mother dies and it is crawling around.
I thought it was whoever has the child holds the baby?
Somewhat related: I've tested and put into practice same-sex childbearing (male and female). The game seems to handle it very well, with the relationship screen saying "father" for both parents (for example, mother also works) and one parent taking care of the baby pretty elegantly.
And yeah, the separation of sex and gender would be good. It should probably wait until the family unit is more... considered. Right now it's "person who gives birth (regardless of sex) carries the baby around" (Yeah, I tested male childbirth. It works, as long as they're a female for the birth).
well mothers generally give birth to the children. Or am I misunderstanding.
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So a trans dwarf is technically a male who carries a child or a female who does not haha.
Mostly I am replying to you saying that actions towards virtual imaginary abstractions of people can have any concept of right and wrong attached to it.
Also, if a piece of fiction can seriously emotionally damage someone then they are not a functioning adult. And while yes, there are tasteless forms of fiction, McCarthyism and censorship are much more of an insult and danger to both the individual and society then any offensive imaginary content.
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First time I heard the word McCarthyism, but I like it. :)
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Transgender stuff
Does it improve gameplay at all?
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Transgender stuff
Does it improve gameplay at all?
No, it's purely atmospheric. (I'm tired, that's not the right word.)
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Also, if a piece of fiction can seriously emotionally damage someone then they are not a functioning adult. And while yes, there are tasteless forms of fiction, McCarthyism and censorship are much more of an insult and danger to both the individual and society then any offensive imaginary content.
Hrrrm. Censorship is the state or an equivalent body preventing you from (eg) putting on a play, making known your opinions, etc. It is not people saying "here don't be a dick", in much the same way that preventing someone from shouting "fire!" in a crowded theatre is not a mortal threat to free speech. Eliding McCarthyism (which, incidentally, was noticeable for going after folk who were already not the 'ideal' cishet 2.4 kids white family wi a white picket fence, so, y'know) with requests that people refrain from being dicks about stuff that patently has a serious effect on other humans with lives and feelings and all that good shit is, at the absolute most charitable level of interpretation, misguided.
And are we seriously suggesting that there can be /no/ moral upshot to virtual actions? Patently it's not equivalent to kill a videogame character and a real-life person, but it seems exceptionally unlikely that anyone would be happy with saying "well yeah I like to (eg) kill all and only people of colour in GTA". Whatever your take on how we should respond to what might be called 'bad thoughts' versus 'bad acts', unless you want to deny that bad thoughts can even exist, you're committed to saying that their direct or first-order subject can be virtual ageents.
Anyway: good onya, mod-maker and folk chipping in with helpful advice.
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Me expressing disapproval of people doing awful things in a fictional setting is not censorship.
That's just entitled and silly. You don't get free reign to do what you please without anyone else being allowed to speak out.
TBH his whole statement was just intentionally obtuse and an attempt to trivialize a real issue.
Anyway, discussion about how people "just need to get over it" and how depicting violence against transgendered people is okay doesn't belong here.
As to whether this mod adds any benefit to the game, no. Nor do 90% of the other mods. This is for atmosphere.
Unfortunately, reproductive organs can't work properly with this mod, so no there aren't transmales that can have babies or transwomen that can impregnate women. That was my intent, but the gender specific flag and the pronouns are tied together, and you can't switch it up very much.
Either way, if you have questions about the mod specifically, or anything to add, that's fine. But the whole "why do we even need this mod?" and "this is stupid because..." doesn't belong here. You wouldn't post it in other mod threads.
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But the whole "why do we even need this mod?" and "this is stupid because..." doesn't belong here. You wouldn't post it in other mod threads.
As a mod author I just wanted to let you know that this isnt true. Negative, just like positive, feedback is an integral part of this modding community. You could really lighten up a bit and be more approachable.
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listen to Meph he is very used to negative feedback
from me even
especially from me even
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[...] doesn't belong here. You wouldn't post it in other mod threads.
Because other mods actually do something interesting and makes sense.
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[...] doesn't belong here. You wouldn't post it in other mod threads.
Because other mods actually do something interesting and makes sense.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145849.0
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listen to Meph he is very used to negative feedback
from me even
especially from me even
And I wouldnt have it any other way. :D
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listen to Meph he is very used to negative feedback
from me even
especially from me even
lol
Some people like certain mods, other people like other mods.
My mod does not exist as bait, and the fact that it causes such a problematic response is not due to a problem with the mod, but with the attitude of people in general. That does not mean it should not exist.
If you don't like the mod don't download it. If you have some criticism that would help me improve the mod, I really am receptive to that. But there is some hostility and a need to criticize the existence of the mod for the topic it covers, and I'm not okay with that. I don't want this thread to become a flame war. If you want to get a discussion going on transexuality in General Discussion, I'll participate (but it will probably go down in flames, either way.)
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But how about criticism like this: "I think this mod is pointless, because it adds no further gameplay. There are no gender related game-mechanics or differences, all it does is change some descriptions, and make marriage/child-birth unnecessary opaque."
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But how about criticism like this: "I think this mod is pointless, because it adds no further gameplay. There are no gender related game-mechanics or differences, all it does is change some descriptions, and make marriage/child-birth unnecessary opaque."
The original post that smeeprocket was replying to, that now looks like a mild complaint about being pointless, wasn't originally so nice. it was vulgar and personal before the author edited it. I think, kudos to smeeprocket for staying pretty calm and directing the mean spirited flamewar stuff either away entirely, or at least down to general.
'Hai guys i made and ork civ which is like goblins only not because ork are like kewl a n stuff.'
8)
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But how about criticism like this: "I think this mod is pointless, because it adds no further gameplay. There are no gender related game-mechanics or differences, all it does is change some descriptions, and make marriage/child-birth unnecessary opaque."
Well, my argument would be that there's a ton of mods that don't do anything useful -in that sense-. Like what is the purpose of extra plants, or extra races and species?
This just includes more genders, which I think is an excellent feature.
I would argue that it is limited, due to the very limited way in which I can change gender and alter it. But it's like everyone and their mother needs to stop in to comment on how pointless it is. I don't see a string of "why does this mod exist?" questions in other threads. I feel it's more a hostility to the concept itself than an actual complaint that it does nothing for the game.
I'm working on another mod that provides other fermented beverages, it will be equally unnecessary and useless, but I would bet good money it won't get these comments.
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I removed a few posts up there. This topic and the related (locked) suggestion received pointless hostile posts, it continues to be an issue, and I'm just going to start handing out mutes if people can't exercise self control.
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But how about criticism like this: "I think this mod is pointless, because it adds no further gameplay. There are no gender related game-mechanics or differences, all it does is change some descriptions, and make marriage/child-birth unnecessary opaque."
Well, my argument would be that there's a ton of mods that don't do anything useful -in that sense-. Like what is the purpose of extra plants, or extra races and species?
This just includes more genders, which I think is an excellent feature.
I would argue that it is limited, due to the very limited way in which I can change gender and alter it. But it's like everyone and their mother needs to stop in to comment on how pointless it is. I don't see a string of "why does this mod exist?" questions in other threads. I feel it's more a hostility to the concept itself than an actual complaint that it does nothing for the game.
I'm working on another mod that provides other fermented beverages, it will be equally unnecessary and useless, but I would bet good money it won't get these comments.
Good answer. :)
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Jimexmore failed to read my warning a few posts above and has now caught a week.
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Hrrrm. Censorship is the state or an equivalent body preventing you from (eg) putting on a play, making known your opinions, etc. It is not people saying "here don't be a dick", in much the same way that preventing someone from shouting "fire!" in a crowded theatre is not a mortal threat to free speech. Eliding McCarthyism with requests that people refrain from being dicks about stuff that patently has a serious effect on other humans with lives and feelings and all that good shit is, at the absolute most charitable level of interpretation, misguided.
Censorship is banning ideas, fiction, writing, etc, regardless of the source. No state needed.
I am using the term McCarthyism not to describe a left / right bias, but a raving denouncement of character or purging of those who violate imaginary moral ideology - ie, the moral crusade that is hitting video games hard at the present day.
And are we seriously suggesting that there can be /no/ moral upshot to virtual actions?
Yes. If you cannot separate reality from imaginary then you are either a child, mentally ill or teetering on the edge of mental illness. It is a harsh thing to say, but it is the truth. People who are that handicapped should stay away from video games.
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I could argue about censorship here. I could search out and refer studies on real effects of virtual things. I could denounce, declaim or support my favorite political and/or religious beliefs.
I'm not going to, though, because this is a thread about a mod in the mod releases forum.
I will note that Smeeprocket is taking a break from Dwarf Fortress because she has been put off by off topic and inflammatory posts. That also means my personal succession fortress I was running with her is also suspended indefinitely. Thanks a lot. :-\
Anyway, I would suggest it might be best to (hopefully) temporarily lock this thread till she's back and has the enthusiasm for further developing her mod.
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I could argue about censorship here. I could search out and refer studies on real effects of virtual things. I could denounce, declaim or support my favorite political and/or religious beliefs.
I'm not going to, though, because this is a thread about a mod in the mod releases forum.
I will note that Smeeprocket is taking a break from Dwarf Fortress because she has been put off by off topic and inflammatory posts. That also means my personal succession fortress I was running with her is also suspended indefinitely. Thanks a lot. :-\
Anyway, I would suggest it might be best to (hopefully) temporarily lock this thread till she's back and has the enthusiasm for further developing her mod.
Smeeprocket was the admitted queen of derailing so I assumed she would be okay with meta discussion - that I did not start - on her own thread.
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I could argue about censorship here. I could search out and refer studies on real effects of virtual things. I could denounce, declaim or support my favorite political and/or religious beliefs.
I'm not going to, though, because this is a thread about a mod in the mod releases forum.
I will note that Smeeprocket is taking a break from Dwarf Fortress because she has been put off by off topic and inflammatory posts. That also means my personal succession fortress I was running with her is also suspended indefinitely. Thanks a lot. :-\
Anyway, I would suggest it might be best to (hopefully) temporarily lock this thread till she's back and has the enthusiasm for further developing her mod.
Smeeprocket was the admitted queen of derailing so I assumed she would be okay with meta discussion - that I did not start - on her own thread.
I'm back now, hesitantly.
But yea, I'd prefer to keep the thread on track, mostly because the derails are going to be inflammatory and could just lead to the thread being locked.
I think this, btw, is usable for the newer versions, nothing in the raws changed that I can tell.
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AFAIK the only difference between male and female dwarves are the 'he' and 'she' tags. If you took those out in descriptions of 10 seperate dwarves you wouldn't be able to tell which where male or female.
Dwarves don't have transgender because it isn't an issue, because both sexes are in no way biologically different. Toady has not introduced their method of reproduction into the game, and the lore is definitely not clear on this bit. If anything the words he/she wife/husband are lost in translation from the dwarven language, and simply mean that there is one dwarf that carries the baby into battle, and another dwarf that watches that dwarfs back.
This is not to say that I am against modding transgender into the game, however I wouldn't personally use said mod.
"Urist feels privileged for being a male, pale of skin, heterosexual dwarf."
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It's not the only difference - for reproduction there needs to be one dwarf with the female and one with the male tag.
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It's not the only difference - for reproduction there needs to be one dwarf with the female and one with the male tag.
I've changed my mind. I would like a mod that removes gender from dwarfs entirely. All dwarfs should be "it" from now, and the lore should reflect that as they are constructs of Armok. A new system could be introduced in the game where doing certain things could urge Armok for new dwarfs, adding some control over your population etc..
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Impossible, the dwarf civilization wouldn't even spawn without gender tags IIRC.
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Open the string dump, replace all he/she with it/it. Done. :D
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There actually is a spawn something script that you might be able to tie to a reaction that works for the latest DFHack. I haven't tried it with a dwarf yet, but here it is. (https://gist.github.com/Rumrusher/f4d0ba18ba6868d38221) Just copy that into notepad, save it as a .lua file, and put it in the hack/scripts folder.
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I'd come to see if there was something useful for the Perthans in my Daedra Citadel mod (Perthans were the male-appearing Spider Daedra in Battlespire) so they could be intersex and still reproduce for the purposes of having a thriving civ, but it doesn't look like it's possible. As for the rest, I don't pretend to understand, but I do try to be open-minded and welcoming to everyone. I don't want to make a well-meaning but ultimately foot in the mouth sort of statement, so I'll stay out of the rest of the discussion.
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And are we seriously suggesting that there can be /no/ moral upshot to virtual actions?
Yes. If you cannot separate reality from imaginary then you are either a child, mentally ill or teetering on the edge of mental illness. It is a harsh thing to say, but it is the truth. People who are that handicapped should stay away from video games.
[/quote]
The whole point of my post, of course, being that actions we take or are presented to us in "play" situations can have palpable, concrete upshots. Unless you think that any and all fiction is completely amoral because "it's just make-believe". The horrifying thing is that you probably do, and this is the point at which I bail on anything approaching reasonable moral discussion. In light of smeeprocket's request, I'll leave it there; once again, good onya smeeprocket, and illegitimi non carbordundum.