This is, minus the many spaces between the lines, (close to) exactly what I had envisioned for my thread!; to be exact, my thread was about the number of temples, choosing between a one-temple society in a world which has only one deity and many helpers or former helpers, and a fortress that has to make space for many temples for many gods and goddesses, but I digress.
What do you think about restricting the number of generated mythological figures to the number of industries, buildings, structures and zones? Historically, invisible powersthat bewere envisioned to have many roles - "spheres" - who very often too had epithets so as to stop a "people with a thousand gods" (Johannes Lehmann on Hittites) from becoming too encumbered with worship. I should note that ancient peoples like the Greek, the West's favored example, had deities for everything (including misery) and others like the Mesopotamians appeased unloving "demons" to make them stop doing what they were often named after.
To make a long post short: there are no good or bad spheres, only the mental necessities of your dwarves.
Mechanic:
It means you get a shitload of temples, which I am cool with - it's a lot of buildings the player could choose to create or not, so you'd have a little moment of planning if you do murder or minerals first, which I think would be good.
I guess it could be toned down a bit, so that it worked to just build an altar to murder, and there could be many altars inside a temple?
There could be 3 tiers, with the all-purpose temple being the least efficient, in the middle a dedicated altar inside the all-purpose temple and the best is a fullblown temple of murder.
Also @Resmisal suggested an interesting idea of a less formal system where people used their surrounding for prayers. One way such setting might work if farmers instead of going to temple of AGRICULTURE, would make some offering (on an altar?) in the fields on their way to work (which makes sense thematically and efficiency wise) while the temple could be used to as gathering spot to celebrate harvest holiday or for pilgrims to come to see some artifact etc. However, the suggestion is very vague and it is unclear how one would go about implementing it and its effects.
I'm kinda thinking to just get rid of the thing where a dwarf follows a particular deity.
It doesn't really make sense to me in a polytheistic contect to like "believe" in Thor but not in Odin. I mean, all the gods go together.
About temples - it would be awesome to be able to break that up. In polytheistic religions, religions stuff could take place in many places. Like you'd go to a lake or bog and pray to one god and to another on top of a hill and so on. There could be restrictions of acceptable locations for worship.You can force this a bit in the current game. Any zone can be a servicable shrine. You can build a temple there later, or move worship into the fort.
The change I propose is just that when the game reaches the point where it tells a dwarf to pray - then you replace the current system where the dwarf just heads of to a temple with the system I proposed.
Off course it means some dwarves would sometimes "miss" praying about big stuff like giving birth, but I think this is fine.
It's no good to force them to pray after big events as it would likely grind forts to standstills.
I'm kinda thinking to just get rid of the thing where a dwarf follows a particular deity.
It doesn't really make sense to me in a polytheistic contect to like "believe" in Thor but not in Odin. I mean, all the gods go together.
I don't like it. It sound great in theory, could be even implemented in adventure mode, but in fortress mode I would prefer more control over where my dwarves go as already too much time is spent on micro managing outside workforce to make sure no one important\valuable get killed.About temples - it would be awesome to be able to break that up. In polytheistic religions, religions stuff could take place in many places. Like you'd go to a lake or bog and pray to one god and to another on top of a hill and so on. There could be restrictions of acceptable locations for worship.You can force this a bit in the current game. Any zone can be a servicable shrine. You can build a temple there later, or move worship into the fort.
There could be 3 tiers, with the all-purpose temple being the least efficient, in the middle a dedicated altar inside the all-purpose temple and the best is a fullblown temple of murder.That's a good system, but it needs clarity on one important point: Would the altar in the Unitarian temple be dedicated to a deity, or to a sphere? Each has its own possibilities.
It doesn't really make sense to me in a polytheistic contect to like "believe" in Thor but not in Odin. I mean, all the gods go together.Yeah, this has always bugged me. Not only is it not realistic, it also reeks of placeholder. I'd much rather see a dwarf's religious beliefs get moved further down in their thoughts & preferences screen, e.g.,: "She is a faithful worshiper of [the god of death], after seeing Tirist Pagepaddled's dead body in 512. She is a casual worshiper of [the god of jewels], after becoming a Gem Cutter in 509." etc. Each dwarf would be born with an amalgam of their parents' beliefs, but their own faith would begin to be shaped by their own life experiences, and then affected more strongly after reaching adulthood & moving out of the family home.
Frequency of praying should be kept as it is IMO. . . . The change I propose is just that when the game reaches the point where it tells a dwarf to pray . . .I don't think the game should "tell" anyone to pray--rather, I think it should be time-based, like Eat or Drink only much more flexible. That is, each dwarf keeps track of how long it's been since he's prayed to each god, and the higher that "counter" goes, the more urgently he feels the desire to pray. More devout beliefs would have their counters rise faster than dubious ones, with the result that some dwarves might worship Deity X far more often than Deity Y. There should also be different manners of prayer, requiring different amounts of time, so each dwarf can balance their religious needs with their other commitments:
. . . that foreign deity, who will now be unofficially "adopted" into your pantheon . . .As far as roleplaying goes, this is nothing but a bonus. Being able to essentially edit your civilization's pantheon is a great way to customize each game to the whims of the player, and yet also limiting such edits to be subject to the whims of your own dwarves and your fort's visitors is a very realistic & organic way of going about it. But where actual gameplay is concerned, this raises an important question: What benefit is there to be gained by adding a new god, or giving an existing god a new sphere? In the game's current implementation, religion is nothing but a hindrance, an addiction that dwarves must satisfy or they (and by extension, the player) will be penalized. Expanding the pantheon does nothing but add to the addictions.
. . . the sphere in question would gradually come to be associated with that deity . . .
It doesn't really make sense to me in a polytheistic contect to like "believe" in Thor but not in Odin. I mean, all the gods go together.Yeah, this has always bugged me. Not only is it not realistic, it also reeks of placeholder. I'd much rather see a dwarf's religious beliefs get moved further down in their thoughts & preferences screen, e.g.,: "She is a faithful worshiper of [the god of death], after seeing Tirist Pagepaddled's dead body in 512. She is a casual worshiper of [the god of jewels], after becoming a Gem Cutter in 509." etc. Each dwarf would be born with an amalgam of their parents' beliefs, but their own faith would begin to be shaped by their own life experiences, and then affected more strongly after reaching adulthood & moving out of the family home.
What benefit is there to be gained by adding a new god, or giving an existing god a new sphere?The more I think about the idea of dwarves praying while they work, the more I like it, largely because it provides an answer to the "problem" of religion I mentioned above. Earlier, I suggested that we go through every type of labor/job that dwarves can perform, and decide which spheres are associated with each one. Then, every time Urist does that job, he is also internally saying a prayer to any god(s) holding those particular spheres, which seems a very understandable & realistic thing to do. Not only does this mitigate (or potentially even supersede) Urist's psychological need to go offer formal prayers in an actual temple hallowed to said god(s), but there's a benefit as well: As Urist's prayers increase his affinity to [deity], the deity pays Urist back by increasing the rate of EXP gain on skills related to the spheres in question.
. . . religion should be good for something.
Sound like skill levels for beliefs . . .Yes, exactly, and those levels should "rust" as well. Urist's faith could "level up" either through life events (fighting an enemy--War, falling in love--Love, suffering a grievous injury--Deformity, etc.), or through the simple job-related prayers I described above (especially if the job results in producing a masterwork or reaching Legendary status). On the other hand, Urist's level of belief could fall either through the simple passage of time, where she prays to Deity X regularly but gets no perceived benefit from it ("What have you done for me lately?"), or through events (was tired of eating the same old food all the time--Food, was forced to suffer the tragedy of art defacement--Art, etc.). But if Urist just leads a pretty humdrum life, praying in church every now & then in exchange for being slightly better at professions that she never really comes to excel in, then her levels of faith should remain largely constant.
* What happens if the dwarf need to pray in sphere for which there are several known gods/sects that consider it their domain, how will Dwarf choose which one to pray to?
I think though that some people could think that a particular god didn't like them personally, so if you think that Thor thinks you're a useless moron but Odin thinks you're a great guy, then you'd pray more to Odin because you expect him to help you out.
* Maybe also include dwarves personality traits in the equation, so like in real life if two dwarfs will be subject to the same environmental factors the end result may still differ.Yes, I definitely want to bring personalities into this, for the gods as well as the individual dwarves. It's high time that the gods had procedurally-generated character traits of their own as well--ideally (although not necessarily) related to their spheres. One factor in my "pray-to-play" plan, that I consider a flaw, is that it can tend to homogenize the dwarves: The game already has the feedback loop of "the more you do a task, the more you maximize your efficiency by doing only that task", it didn't need a "the more you do a task, the more you focus your religious beliefs on just the god(s) associated with that task" stacked on top of it. It's enough to see entire guilds wherein every member works and dresses the same, they don't all need to worship the same way too. That's where I think personality should come in: Dwarves who feel an affinity or kinship with certain gods should want to pray to them, whether they "need" that god's spheres or not. And conversely, gods should value the worship of mortals with similar values more than the worship of people whose personality traits are contrary to their own. So individual dwarves would have some gods that they regard as "friends", and other gods that they see more as "co-workers" . . . and they could have varying levels of faith in gods of both types. Gods, meanwhile, might actually reject the worship of dwarves whose personalities are too unlike their own--their prayers don't "taste" that good, so it's not worth the bother of granting them any divine favor. Also, note that belief in a god should not always mean serving that god. It'd be very interesting if, sometimes, dwarves with the right personality traits could develop grudges against certain deities, if they felt that the god had ignored or betrayed them. Shades of Conan's prayer to Crom--"And if you do not listen, then to hell with you!"
One change I'd really like to see is to show the spheres of gods and religions on the embark screen. If six of my dwarfs belong to the same religion then they're off to set up a religious community.True. As of v47.05 (don't know about v50.05), it's impossible to know the faiths of your starting seven until you actually arrive at the site. The first thing I do with every new world I generate is crack open the new world_history.txt & check out every dwarf civ's pantheon--and before I embark for real, I like to savescum a couple of "test runs" in order to make sure that my chosen civ doesn't have something stupid, such as a deity of pregnancy who is commonly depicted as a skeletal male dwarf.
* not sure how to handle conflicting spheres, one can't be both high priest of life and death.Why not? That's kind of what necromancers already are, the game even explicitly states that they discover the secrets of "life and death". But yes, I too am of the opinion that certain spheres are (and should be) in direct conflict with one another . . . which is why, in a past thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172478.0), I suggested adding the spheres of Cycles, Opposites, and Twins, each of which would provide a different way of reconciling seemingly-contradictory spheres (as would the already-existing Balance).
Dwarves can obviously believe in all the gods in their pantheon at once, and can almost certainly worship them nearly simultaneously as well. Why, then, could a single dwarf not be a priest of two faiths?
see entire guilds wherein every member works and dresses the sameI am not familiar with this, is there any guild group mechanics?
can you be both pro and anti abortion; democrat and republican . . .Actually, yes, and in fact quite a lot of people already are. One can easily believe that abortion is a horrible thing that should never be done, while also believing that in some cases, it's a better option than the inevitable alternative. (And that's not even counting the actual hypocrites, the people who believe that "Nobody at all should be allowed to get an abortion, except of course for me and the people I'm personally close to.") The political positions of Centrist and Libertarian could both be fairly (albeit simplistically) described as a mix of both Democratic and Republican policies. Even in cases where factors might seem to be completely contradictory, humans are great at finding loopholes & grey areas, especially where holy doctrine is concerned. Just look at every monotheistic religion, wherein the sole god is by definition the god of every sphere, including the mutually exclusive ones.
There is no 'life' sphere so the example should have been DEATH and LONGEVITY, or CONSOLATION and MISERY, etc.Ask a Christian how a benevolent God can allow evil to exist and you'll either get a dodge like "to allow people to prove their faith by choosing to be good" or a non-answer like "God works in mysterious ways". They can also fall back on using the Trinity as a "secret" pantheon--the Father is the god of Misery, it's the Son who holds the sphere of Consolation.
Not that I know of, but then I've never actually had a guild. When I wrote that, I was thinking of Miners (or whatnot) running around, all doing essentially the same task, carrying the same equipment, wearing the same clothes (because I just order up a whole ton of stuff to be made for the entire fort), and, in another recent thread, I argued in favor of guilds being able to issue petitions requesting guild-specific uniforms, including protective gear if applicable. So strongly encouraging all members of a given trade to also worship the same god was definitely too standardized for my tastes.see entire guilds wherein every member works and dresses the sameI am not familiar with this, is there any guild group mechanics?
Religion is fun, and flavorful, and realistic, yes. But what do the dwarves get out of it? I don't want to make this thread go off on a tangent about what might happen in the whole Magic arc, but I hope we can agree that religion should be good for something.
One factor in my "pray-to-play" plan, that I consider a flaw, is that it can tend to homogenize the dwarves:
We seem to be talking about different things. What you suggest sound like a simple prototype for a person belief system in RL, however, the premise I am following is that in DF gods exist and these sphere are their domains of power, some of which are mutually exclusive.No, we're still on the same page. We were discussing the theoretical possibility of a single dwarf being a priest of two different gods--I thought it'd be awkward but doable, but you said it'd be flat-out impossible because the gods might have spheres on each other's Preclude list. So I came up with a few different examples of how a DF priest might realistically cope with having patron deities at odds with each other. Personally, I'm of the belief that if anything can be explained in a plausible way, it should be allowed in the game--particularly if it makes for a good story, and finding a way to make precluded spheres work hand-in-hand with one another definitely sounds like a cool story to me.
. . . given that gods exist and assuming you want to gain their favor then some things can't be bridged over, some things can't be both sin and virtue at same time, and thus any action to the contrary would result in cognitive dissonance.Except that I listed multiple examples of ways one (whether it's one priest or one god) might handle opposing spheres, and most of those fully acknowledged--even embraced the contradiction. You yourself mentioned Shiva. I just said above that I think DF gods should be able to hold Precluded spheres, "under certain conditions". Let me list some possible conditions:
As noted above religion have served a social role to help groups cohere, in what have been a much more tribal society, I feel that such group dynamics aren't very well represented in DF . . .I don't think there's a single player who doesn't want to see religious ceremonies, or holidays/festivals, and in fact more social activities in general. My current fort is 47 years old, and I've yet to see a single marriage, let alone an actual wedding. More social events that attract dwarves who already have something in common, such as a religion, would be better at building interpersonal relationships.
I think that more emphasize on group events utilizing relationships and emphasize on family events, there is also an interesting suggestion for holiday/mayor events and maybe add an outside influence events.
I also wonder if worship will only have rewards or also punishment/mandates?I sure hope so. The game already has dwarves who defile temples & are punished with vampirism/lycanthropy, so we can blend our own "dissatisfied worshiper" in with that. He prays to her for skill at his job but she doesn't care, or help, so his level of faith drops. He prays to her for X but the opposite of X happens, so he develops a grudge & his prayers turn to curses. His curses are actually hurting her (detracting from the worship from her followers, which is what she feeds on), so she mandates some of her faithful to pay him a visit, to (threaten to) beat or kill him if he doesn't stop cursing her. Being the vengeful sort that he is, he gets drunk & topples one of her statues, and now he's a werezebra.
I'm kinda thinking to just get rid of the thing where a dwarf follows a particular deity.Exactly what I was proposing! Well, almost. To be exact, my first motion was to add an option to switch between many- and one-templed games. Currently, dwarves always live in a polytheistic world and yet overwhelmingly live a monolatrist lifestyle - something that is a departure from historical theology. Or is it 'theological history'? Anyways, tagging mundane objects and places can solve the problem of abstract spheres, such as a courthouse serving as the temple of justice (or vice-versa) and a
One change I'd really like to see is to show the spheres of gods and religions on the embark screen. If six of my dwarfs belong to the same religion then they're off to set up a religious community. But I find it a little gutting if they turn out to worship an ocean god and I sent them to the mountains, or they worship a mountain god and I sent them to the plains.This can be easily helped by disabling one-sphered deities and perhaps compel the world gen to add unrelated spheres. For example, Poseidon ruled over waters both fresh and salty, and over earthquakes, and horses; in Ancient Greek literature, horses were a metaphor for earthquakes, and the shakings of the earth were imagined to come from the sea rather than the other way around. Such complicated inner workings are best handled by an AI that's simple enough not to require a connection. I digress.
I think that DF would really benefit from group events (loyalty cascade excluded) to make the fort feel more like a community. Certainly such events would be disruptive to productivity, an important consideration when choosing whether to enact these.Optimally, a fort would have a shared pantheon the inhabitants would sooner or later acquire plus the chance that migrants or caravans add a deity with or without the contest of your parent civilization.
It is called Monolatry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monolatry), it doesn't deny the existence of other deities or their validity.I may or may not have used monolatry and henotheism interchangeably in the past and I don't want to correct my mistakes and falsify my posting history.
Yeah, this has always bugged me. Not only is it not realistic, it also reeks of placeholder.What my
What benefit is there to be gained by adding a new god, or giving an existing god a new sphere?A very sensible question. Up until the sizeable magics update is released, political relations over a shared belief and a check against tantrums come to mind.
“Do ut des”. “I give so that you might give”.In theology there's a pervasive notion that humans need deities and rarely the other way around.
The more I think about the idea of dwarves praying while they work, the more I like it, largely because it provides an answer to the "problem" of religion I mentioned above. [...]Good, no, great ideas! I wish I had them when I made this thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=181123.0). While I did have the idea of ranking gods&goddesses, I had thought it was too complicated to implement. Mine was a system that gave rise to religious missions and wars for allowing or lacking certain figures, and disagreements over their treatment within a settlement (incl. fortresses).
Urist's faith could "level up" either through life events (fighting an enemy--War, falling in love--Love, suffering a grievous injury--Deformity, etc.), or through the simple job-related prayers I described above (especially if the job results in producing a masterwork or reaching Legendary status). [...]
Yes, I definitely want to bring personalities into this, for the gods as well as the individual dwarves. It's high time that the gods had procedurally-generated character traits of their own as well--ideally (although not necessarily) related to their spheres. [...]
Disagree.Why not? Historically this has been the majority of cases excepting the famous example of Zoroastrianism with its explicit remark that the evil spirits are not to be served. Slavic paganism comes to mind: the goddesses of summer and winter, respectively the goddesses of life and death, are sisters and friends.
Even in cases where factors might seem to be completely contradictory, humans are great at finding loopholes & grey areas, especially where holy doctrine is concerned.Allowing diametrically opposed spheres may lead to esoteric schools of thought in addition to exoteric expressions of rituals and holidays.
What is the role of religion in DF is a very interesting question. As noted above religion have served a social role to help groups cohere, in what have been a much more tribal society, I feel that such group dynamics aren't very well represented in DF, if ethics weren't hardcoded civilizations would have fallen apart as everyone followed their work loops.Now you're giving me ideas that ethics can be linked to belief systems and two dwarven civilizations with differing pantheons can have differing civilizational ethics. We can't deny the enormous effect religions have had on culture and the sociology of justice.
1) The god also holds the existing sphere of Balance. This enables the deity to wield closely-related but opposing spheres, such as Fertility and Blight, in harmonious conjunction, by understanding that both are necessary for the well-being of the universe. Picture a nature goddess who is largely disinterested; she does hear her followers all fervently praying for Fertility, and she does care for them (at least a little), but she also knows that she's got to look at the big picture--without decay, there can be no new life. So she giveth with one hand & taketh with the other.Great food for thought!
2) The deity also holds the (invented) sphere of Opposites. This works much the same as Balance, except that instead of inner peace, the god is conflicted, perhaps even deeply troubled, by his opposing responsibilities. The difference is primarily for roleplaying reasons, of course, helping players to imagine a god of both Torture and Mercy who is a sadomasochist, or with multiple personalities. Such a deity might even be a god of contradiction, possessing multiple pairs of precluded spheres.
3) The god holds the (invented) sphere of Cycles. This works especially well for precluded spheres separated by time, such as Day/Night and their associated Sun/Moon, or Birth/Death/Rebirth . . . essentially, any progression that forms a closed loop. The Cycles sphere unifies the others, making the deity into a god of the loop itself.
4) Lastly, the invented sphere of Twins works on all pairs of related spheres, not just Precluded ones: It essentially rips the god in half, creating two new deities & splitting their related spheres right down the middle. Players could end up with siblings who are partners (she handles Nature-Animals-Rain, while he covers Weather-Trees-Fish), or bitter enemies (one is Truth-Laws-Order, and the other is Lies-Theft-Chaos), or in a love/hate relationship (e.g., Family-Duty-Loyalty paired with Children-Freedom-Treachery), but all gods thus created would have Twins listed among their spheres, so players would know that they're meant to go together. (Alternatively, this could be achieved by having any in-game depiction of one god have a 50% chance to also show the other one as well.)
He prays to her for X but the opposite of X happens, so he develops a grudge & his prayers turn to curses. His curses are actually hurting her (detracting from the worship from her followers, which is what she feeds on), so she mandates some of her faithful to pay him a visit, to (threaten to) beat or kill him if he doesn't stop cursing her.Except for that. I don't know why this god(esse)s-need-prayers idea is so popular.
I'll just leave this here.Resmisal -- Meditate on Suicide -- What is heroic death if not suicide? Is ego death a subspecies of suicide? Was saving the life of your future murderer extended suicide?
https://imgur.com/a/QTIjECR (https://imgur.com/a/QTIjECR)
We seem to be talking about different things. What you suggest sound like a simple prototype for a person belief system in RL, however, the premise I am following is that in DF gods exist and these sphere are their domains of power, some of which are mutually exclusive.No, we're still on the same page. We were discussing the theoretical possibility of a single dwarf being a priest of two different gods--I thought it'd be awkward but doable, but you said it'd be flat-out impossible because the gods might have spheres on each other's Preclude list.
Personally, I'm of the belief that if anything can be explained in a plausible way, it should be allowed in the game--particularly if it makes for a good story, and finding a way to make precluded spheres work hand-in-hand with one another definitely sounds like a cool story to me.
No, what I said is that some, not all, beliefs should be mutually exclusive but also allowed for a single dwarf to follow multiple gods.I agree with you wholeheartedly! Types of faith, specific conceptions, attributes, experiences and practices, and related topics such as the topic of evil, are easily syncretizable excepting monotheism. One excellent, contemporary example is India, a metaphorical "salad bowl" and an equally proverbial "melting pot" which proves that the preceding
I'll just leave this here.because of course
https://imgur.com/a/QTIjECR (https://imgur.com/a/QTIjECR)
What mypoorly wordedthread was about, plus syncretism.A very sensible question. Up until the sizeable magics update is released, political relations over a shared belief and a check against tantrums come to mind.In theology there's a pervasive notion that humans need deities and rarely the other way around.Good, no, great ideas! I wish I had them when I made this thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=181123.0). While I did have the idea of ranking gods&goddesses, I had thought it was too complicated to implement. Mine was a system that gave rise to religious missions and wars for allowing or lacking certain figures, and disagreements over their treatment within a settlement (incl. fortresses).Great food for thought!
I’m not sure what you’re replying to here as the quotes are all empty…Isn't that how it's done to mean the whole post? I felt the posts as a whole were really good and only singled out specific lines to respond to. Generally I feel the right to post long post is reserved to the poster who started a thread. And I love long posts.
In theology there's a pervasive notion that humans need deities and rarely the other way around. . . .Because gods are more interesting when they're more human, more relatable. Dwarf Fortress is, in essence, a game about telling stories, and prayers that get answered make for far better stories than prayers that do not. But what reasons would a god have to answer prayers?
I don't know why this god(esse)s-need-prayers idea is so popular.
You're right that priests shouldn't serve opposites, but exactly that was/is common in most heathen societies. . . . What I'm trying to say is - let the RNG decide.I'm of the opinion that Precluded spheres (either a single god holding them, or a single priest serving multiple gods who collectively hold them) should be possible, but unlikely.
. . . Allowing diametrically opposed spheres may lead to esoteric schools of thought in addition to exoteric expressions of rituals and holidays.
Meditate on Suicide -- What is heroic death if not suicide? Is ego death a subspecies of suicide? Was saving the life of your future murderer extended suicide?Friendly reminder that the screenshot is really just the result of placeholder logic combined with some (un)lucky RNG hits. One the fort's gods simply has a high percentage of worshipers but only a few spheres, this same god (probably) doesn't yet have a dedicated temple, and a lot of dwarves just got off a big job. Go ahead & picture dozens of dwarves eagerly pondering the nature of self-slaughter if you want, but I wouldn't read too much into it.
If you wish to indicate that you're talking about someone's entire post, you can literally just say that as part of your comment. Quoting someone but removing everything that they said creates a lot of confusion, especially if you do it multiple times. If you wish to single out specific lines to respond to, you have to actually do so.I’m not sure what you’re replying to here as the quotes are all empty…Isn't that how it's done to mean the whole post? I felt the posts as a whole were really good and only singled out specific lines to respond to.
Generally I feel the right to post long post is reserved to the poster who started a thread.Like this. And I don't think post length is ever an issue, no matter who the OP is/was. As long as your thoughts are constructive and on topic (and you yourself are familiar enough with the forum & the game to know that you're being constructive & on topic), type as much as you want.
Overall we talked about your suggestion as skill levels for beliefs. As noted I see skill and beliefs as inherently different.Sorry, I think there may be some semantic confusion. I didn't mean to imply that dwarves must "learn how" to "get better" at their faith (although those with that inclination should be enabled to do so, once books of holy scripture & theological study become a thing), I meant that religious beliefs should have ranked levels, similar to those that currently exist for skills. Which is an idea that I don't think anyone objects to, especially considering that it's already implemented in the game. I'm just adding the wrinkle that, as religion-related events happen to a given dwarf, or significant time passes without any such events, that dwarf's level of faith could go up or down.
However, beliefs are more, it is mental schema that we form through life and act as a filter to perceive the world around us and ourselves, some parts are layered so deep that it is core part of our identity and if challenged trigger various defense mechanism in our brain.That's a very important point, which I had entirely overlooked. At the moment, each dwarf has personal Beliefs (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Personality_trait#Beliefs), on topics such as Law, Family, Eloquence, etc. There is currently no such formal Belief for Religion. I suggest that a Religion belief be added, which will influence how likely, and how strongly, each dwarf is to believe in gods in general, and then their level of belief in specific gods will be dependent on that. Faith in individual gods can fluctuate--faith in religion in general cannot (at least not without some significant life event, the same as all other personal Beliefs).
* I like the idea of specific events triggering rituals like birth of a child, however, if the list will include mundane stuff like 'drinking vomit' then I fear that the need to pray might overwhelm the dwarf schedule. For mundane things, it might be better to rely on the existing recent thought\stress mechanic to choose from when the dwarf choose to pray.
* I also love the idea of mayor events. Religion is not just about supernatural and myth around them, it is about people and not just as individuals but as a group. So while Individual mental state matters, I would love to see some "social cohesion" events that bring people together not as individuals who just happen to find some time on their busy schedule to notice that half the fort got slaughtered but as group coming together remembering the dead and celebrating the living. (There is a similar suggestion for holidays, which would allow to celebrate things like plentiful harvest or finding adamantine for example, or just give people a break todo whatever)
* Dwarfs are not monolith, some are committed believers others are unreligious, I hope this will not handicap the believers.
This sort of ritualism was very common in ancient times, one would make offering to various gods like Christian offer various prayers to specific saints, but often there was a head of the pantheon and or people who choose to follow/devote themselves to a certain path (which is how currently this work). I think this needs to be represented or deities will become a matter of fashion and forgotten. Which is not necessarily true, we tend to remember life changing experiences, if you believe Thor saved you and is responsible for the life you have you wont replace him over some fun nights at the Tavern
What happens if the dwarf need to pray in sphere for which there are several known gods/sects that consider it their domain, how will Dwarf choose which one to pray to?
** Personally, I would like to see some sort of pantheon used, where different civilization worship different gods (at least by name) something that that people can fight about.
Not sure one need to make a strict tier system (Even in the "monothestic" bible there are examples of many deities worship in the house of god, although they had a chosen god) Although dedicated temples should offer other benefits through its assigned personnel.
Also @Resmisal suggested an interesting idea of a less formal system where people used their surrounding for prayers. One way such setting might work if farmers instead of going to temple of AGRICULTURE, would make some offering (on an altar?) in the fields on their way to work (which makes sense thematically and efficiency wise) while the temple could be used to as gathering spot to celebrate harvest holiday or for pilgrims to come to see some artifact etc. However, the suggestion is very vague and it is unclear how one would go about implementing it and its effects.
Because gods are more interesting when they're more human, more relatable. Dwarf Fortress is, in essence, a game about telling stories, and prayers that get answered make for far better stories than prayers that do not. But what reasons would a god have to answer prayers?
1) They do so purely out of the goodness of their hearts, they feel sympathy/empathy with their worshipers.
2) The gods are forced to grant prayers, either by the spheres that they hold or by some higher god, such as Armok.
3) They do so because they reap some reasonably significant benefit for doing so. It is worth their time/energy to grant prayers.
Option 1 would mean that all gods, even the bloody-handed and apparently evil gods of spheres like Torture, Murder, & Nightmares, are actually benevolent (or at least neutral and compassionate) at heart. This would automatically discount the very possibility of Evil gods, deities who are feared rather than loved, which naturally would be a huge loss to potential storytelling. (Admittedly, the idea that good-natured gods might be compelled to exercise their more harmful spheres against their will also holds narrative promise . . . but nowhere near as much as a god who is genuinely Evil/contrary/destructive in his own right.)
Option 2, of course, does nothing but pass the buck--either to some "god's God", which is lame and hand-wavy, or to an impersonal object, which is even worse.
Option 3, however, has potential. If the gods do nothing but sit in their ivory tower and wreak their wills upon the hapless mortals, then that's worthless. The impotent humans/dwarves can do nothing but shake their fists at the uncaring gods, and there is no possibility that anything could ever change. But if the gods actually interact with mortals, if there's real give-and-take between them, if the gods have genuine needs that (only) worshipers can meet, then that's where things can really get interesting. Now we can start to have something that actually deserves to be called a mythology.
I don't know about you, but I'm strongly in favor of my dwarves having at least some minimal effect on celestial events, and making the gods have some stake in what goes on in my fort.
Generally I feel the right to post long post is reserved to the poster who started a thread.Like this. And I don't think post length is ever an issue, no matter who the OP is/was. As long as your thoughts are constructive and on topic (and you yourself are familiar enough with the forum & the game to know that you're being constructive & on topic), type as much as you want.
First off, I'd like to note that anyone whose vocabulary can send ME reaching for a dictionary deserves a nod of respect.Aw shucks.
Because gods are more interesting when they're more human, more relatable. Dwarf Fortress is, in essence, a game about telling stories, and prayers that get answered make for far better stories than prayers that do not. But what reasons would a god have to answer prayers?I agree wholeheartedly. I have no better argument than one day, after gym, coming across the notion of comparative theology and I won the impression divinities are either:
I'm of the opinion that Precluded spheres (either a single god holding them, or a single priest serving multiple gods who collectively hold them) should be possible, but unlikely.First off I share a portion of Jipehog's reasoning: an individual deity shouldn't hold opposite spheres, but dwarves absolutely should revere or appease gods&goddesses of opposing spheres. No matter how much you love life, you will think about death. No matter how much you love discipline, you will think about chaos. No matter how much you love the truth, you will think about lies. To alleviate a dualistic worldview, there can be mediatory spheres such as you mentioned, e.g. balance.Perhaps the game could help shepherd the player into choosing appropriate priests, by sorting the potential appointees by suitability: ...Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Friendly reminder that the screenshot is really just the result of placeholder logic combined with some (un)lucky RNG hits. One the fort's gods simply has a high percentage of worshipers but only a few spheres, this same god (probably) doesn't yet have a dedicated temple, and a lot of dwarves just got off a big job. Go ahead & picture dozens of dwarves eagerly pondering the nature of self-slaughter if you want, but I wouldn't read too much into it.Oh, I'm not a newbie to the game. I happen to not use forums (fora?) much. Or at all until recently.
If you wish to indicate that you're talking about someone's entire post, you can literally just say that as part of your comment. Quoting someone but removing everything that they said creates a lot of confusion, especially if you do it multiple times. If you wish to single out specific lines to respond to, you have to actually do so.Haha, it's becoming increasingly obvious that I don't use the Internet all that much. Be sure I'll fix my quotes.QuoteGenerally I feel the right to post long post is reserved to the poster who started a thread.Like this. And I don't think post length is ever an issue, no matter who the OP is/was. As long as your thoughts are constructive and on topic (and you yourself are familiar enough with the forum & the game to know that you're being constructive & on topic), type as much as you want.
At the moment, each dwarf has personal Beliefs (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Personality_trait#Beliefs), on topics such as Law, Family, Eloquence, etc. There is currently no such formal Belief for Religion. I suggest that a Religion belief be added, which will influence how likely, and how strongly, each dwarf is to believe in gods in general, and then their level of belief in specific gods will be dependent on that. Faith in individual gods can fluctuate--faith in religion in general cannot (at least not without some significant life event, the same as all other personal Beliefs).I'm of the belief (ba dum tss) that all dwarves should believe in all generates godhoods and godheads and demand a temple for each one. Make them little god-heads.