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Author Topic: Armchair General General - /AGG  (Read 129616 times)

Elfeater

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #165 on: August 07, 2014, 05:45:48 pm »

I don't see how an amphibious invasion of Ireland is going to work any better than one of Britain. You've still got the Royal Navy blocking your way, and preventing supply and reinforcement if you by miracle land a force.
Even if unfeasible, if it did happen it would put Britain in a very tight spot.
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Jopax

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #166 on: August 07, 2014, 05:58:07 pm »

Well, we're assuming they somehow took care of the fleet. Taking over Ireland would be much easier than Britain itself, and would allow you to esentially starve them of US support and thus make your future invasion that much easier.
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mainiac

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #167 on: August 07, 2014, 07:13:32 pm »

Well, we're assuming they somehow took care of the fleet,

Assuming I had a million dollars, I could survive very comfortably without needing to work.  It's a pretty big assumption.

The Germans in no way shape or form had the ability to neutralize the British Home Fleet.  Even if half the home fleet disappeared and the Germans pulled a Pearl Harbor style success they wouldn't have enough strength to cross the channel and the Germans didn't even have torpedo bombers.  Even if you magicked the RAF out of existence and turned every Junker into a Japanese style torpedo bomber they wouldn't have enough planes.

And even if the Home Fleet starts taking losses, the British have other fleets.  And even if we ignore those there is the problem that the Germans had a "fleet" that was completely inadequate for landing forces where they were needed.
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Comrade Shamrock

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #168 on: August 07, 2014, 09:58:44 pm »

Well, we're assuming they somehow took care of the fleet. Taking over Ireland would be much easier than Britain itself, and would allow you to esentially starve them of US support and thus make your future invasion that much easier.
Operation Green called for the involvement of over 50,000 German troops. This outnumbered the Irish Army and would have been better equipped,better led,better trained and have a better doctrine. Ireland during World War Two was woefully underprepared. Ireland had a army and reserves were 13,000 reduced from 18,750 following the phoney war.  At the wars outbreak, most were poorly trained.

Out of 298 required anti-tank rifles we had 4, out of 32 anti tank guns we had none, out of a required 924 bren guns we had 82, we had 4 of our 72 searchlights. An additional 4 medium AA guns, 4 bofors guns and another additional 4 searchlights were acquired after the outbreak. Small arms ammunition were around half of the requirement and rounds for mortars, anti-aircraft and field artillery were 8% of what was required.

Our navy was not worth a damn. Two converted fishing trawlers whose military capabilities were worse than merchantmen and six unreliable and awkward PT boats. Our airforce at its height in the later part of the war was 43 planes of a various assortment.  Our situation was abysmal.

The greatest enemies of the Germans would face on the ground was the terrain, the weather (rain) and the poor road system. The Germans would enjoy quick and easy success in the opening days of such an invasion. The only serious resistance the Germans would receive would come from the North from British units stationed in Northern Irelnad. Planning for the defence of Ireland called for two British Divisions, 53rd Division and 61st Division to defend the Irish shores. RAF units have probably been brought over. The British made extensive plans to supply their troops. This is where the German invasion becomes problematic. The Germans now having advanced inland after being delayed by the poor transport system and Ireland's mountainous coast (Ireland is kind of like a bowl). They are now coming up against the much tougher and better supplied British troops. This would bog down any German any further advance into the Irish territory. The only possible problems with this  are political. There is still anti-British resentment from the War of Independence 1919-1921 which could lead to resistance to the presence of British troops on Irish soil. There is also the possibility of an IRA coup to seize power and welcome the German's but I don't think so as the these men were opposed by the majority of Ireland in the Civil War 1922-1923. Also if such a coup took place and the military joined them, they're in an even worse boat than the German's. They are more likely to be a hindrance than a help. Taking the German's valuable supplies or simply being poor allies like the Italians.

Now, the miracle that allowed this German army to land in Ireland without being stopped by the Royal Navy has worn off and they will now proceed to blow the bejeesus out of any German ship in the waters surrounding Ireland and Britain. This would probably cut German resupply and reinforcement to a trickle if not halt it entirely. This German army is now present in a country that could not provide the means for an army almost one fifth of its size. It has no domestic arms industry, so the Germans can't press gang the factories to produce supplies for them as there is not even equipment or raw materials which could possibly be used to replace the German equipment and munitions. There will probably an abundant source of food so they won't starve at least. Now the German's only hope is British supplies which will probably be well protected as the British know how valuable as it is the German's only viable option other than surrender. The German's will probably not capture the supplies.

The German army now having expended the majority of its munitions, has two options surrender or retreat one is viable, the other is not. Surrender is their viable option. Retreat is an option but they have nowhere to go. Back to the coast, where then? Home to Germany. Nope the Royal navy is in the way. Grab the furniture and trees to build makeshift rafts and float to friendly land and be too numerous for the navy to destroy. Not many will make it.

So what have the Germans accomplished. They have lost 50,000 men and their equipment gallivanting about in Ireland. They have handed the ports of Ireland neatly into allied hands. This will help Allied ASW and offer greater security to Allied convoys in the trans Atlantic journey. It also opens makes Irish agriculture more open to the Allies, lessening food shortages and raising public morale. I'm sorry but I don't see anyway the German's really benefit from this.

You forget that six counties in the North belong to England and they have military bases too. The British are not unaware of Ireland and they have viewed Ireland as the backdoor to the England for the past few hundred years. This is not exactly unexpected and has always been a British fear.

I'm very sorry if this came across as too harsh but there are very wild things people say ''what if'' and ''but'' to. I simply drive home the point that it was in no way feasible or possible outside of a game.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 10:25:07 pm by Comrade Shamrock »
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10ebbor10

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #169 on: August 08, 2014, 02:02:56 am »

Indeed, the invasion of Britain is mostly unfeasible.

But for other what if's. What if the battle of the beams never happened (or didn't happen as soon as it did) because the British failed to detect anything in their early tests.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #170 on: August 08, 2014, 01:50:12 pm »

If you force the strait once, you have probably dealt with their fleet, and can set up a blockade of the Rock while it wont fall because of Spanish support, you will have fairly free access to the Mediterranean.
The allied European fleets would do all in their power to never engage the American fleet directly, doing so would be suicide. So expect submarines everywhere launching missiles into the American fleet as it tries to move past heavily fortified coasts in extremely visible fashions under enemy air cover. More than possible, but risky, and if the American fleet succeeds what's the plan then? Move into the Mediterranean to do what?

New scenario! How would WWII been different if Hitler hadn't turned to bombing UK cities, and instead kept bombing strategic targets, and followed it up with an amphibious invasion of England?
Best case scenario absolutely for Hitler is that he manages to eliminate or else keep the Royal Navy away from the UK with overwhelming air superiority and drums up support in Britain for his cause so the British people do not fight Nazi occupation or cannot effectively fight Nazi occupation. In that scenario the commonwealth continues fighting, though now America no longer has a convenient staging point for a landing and so Nazi Germany no longer spends vast wealths of resources on building a useless Atlantic wall and focuses fully on the USSR. Maybe these extra resources help Nazi Germany defeat the USSR but in all likelihood it just ends with all of Europe beyond the channel falling under the fold of the USSR.
Worst case scenario and the Nazis bloody themselves against a population endeavored to enacting a suitably grizzly price on enemy soldiers and Nazi Germany falls sooner. Think of Japan, even after being bombed into oblivion they were determined to give invaders the finger.

If the us would invade Europe, would the Europeans, saying they lose the UK to the US, re-purpose whats left of Hitlers Atlantic wall?
Barring what's still in good condition probably not. It was a waste of resources then and is even less effective today. In the modern age fortifications are built to be destroyed and lack the mobility to flee.

Elfeater

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #171 on: August 09, 2014, 02:13:21 pm »

New topic, a Belgium which allowed Imperial Germany in WW1 military access through their lands.
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Glloyd

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #172 on: August 09, 2014, 02:43:04 pm »

I think the Germans would've taken Paris. The Brits still would've joined, but it would give the Germans that much more time and that much less resistance.

Sergarr

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #173 on: August 09, 2014, 03:57:29 pm »

I still find it baffling that Germany has used the same attack-through-Belgium plan both in WW1 and in WW2, and it still caught everybody with surprise.
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Digital Hellhound

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #174 on: August 09, 2014, 04:14:51 pm »

To be fair, in WW2 the route of attack wasn't really much of a surprise - the speed and new way of fighting was.
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Sheb

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #175 on: August 09, 2014, 04:35:35 pm »

Still, the Maginot line wasn't on the Belgian border.

New what if: What if Friedrick III didn't contract throat cancer and a liberal, pro-British Kaiser was in charge from 1888 onward?
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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #176 on: August 09, 2014, 05:00:42 pm »

I still find it baffling that Germany has used the same attack-through-Belgium plan both in WW1 and in WW2, and it still caught everybody with surprise.
They knew that Germany was in all likelihood going to go through Belgium to avoid the Maginot line, they just didn't expect the Germans to move that many tanks through a forest and do it with such speed that the allies would not be able to respond, hence why the BEF got stuck in Belgium with Frenchmen.

Elfeater

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #177 on: August 09, 2014, 06:01:49 pm »

I still find it baffling that Germany has used the same attack-through-Belgium plan both in WW1 and in WW2, and it still caught everybody with surprise.
And then later on, Battle of the Bulge.
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mainiac

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #178 on: August 09, 2014, 06:34:43 pm »

I still find it baffling that Germany has used the same attack-through-Belgium plan both in WW1 and in WW2, and it still caught everybody with surprise.

They didn't catch anyone with surprise either time.  French military plans prior to WWI generally assumed an attack through Belgium.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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10ebbor10

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #179 on: August 10, 2014, 01:07:10 am »

Besides, remember, in the second and first world war, Belgium wasn't exactly undefended. It's just that our fortresses always were a war behind.
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