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Author Topic: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!  (Read 848755 times)

Egan_BW

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
« Reply #8100 on: June 03, 2020, 12:39:50 pm »

That's gonna go real bad real quick, huh?
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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
« Reply #8101 on: June 03, 2020, 02:50:30 pm »

Wait, am I doing my math right? Taking some wikipedia figures (which as always have the issue of city v. metropolitan area comparisons, but so it goes):

The ancient city of Rome was, based on the walls, (maybe?) about 7-10 square miles for the city proper and anywhere from 80,000 to 1 million people, depending on the account one is using (and whether it includes the broader metropolitan area, which I don't think I saw a reference of in terms of how large an area that might be).

Had trouble quickly finding figures for ancient Chinese capitals, but seems to be roughly on par with Rome at times?

NYC is just over 300 miles of square land and a little under 9 million people.

Tokyo is 850 square miles, 14 million.

Beijing is 6,300 square miles, 21.5 million.

The map posted is about 1,530 square miles (if I counted right). But that's missing additional "metropolis" and "urban zone" areas...

Now I'm assuming/hoping the population density is lower than NYC or Tokyo (no high rises?), but that's still probably an awful lot of people indeed. I wonder how their sewer infrastructure is?

Edit: Also, thanks for sharing this. I clearly need to read more Chinese history.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 02:52:59 pm by Dostoevsky »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
« Reply #8102 on: June 03, 2020, 03:18:36 pm »

Are those walls 24 miles long?
Probably somewhere around 20 miles thick, as I interpret the white space on the wall tiles as being the same as their surroundings (so full of houses in this case). The Middle Kingdom historically was the only warring state that was strong enough to resist the first Dragon Emperor in open warfare; they joined the Empire willingly when the Dragon Emperor confirmed the privileges of the Kingdom. It's also why they're still legally a Kingdom, and why their walls are large and extra thicc

Also that's a lot of people

Too many people
Yeah each big house represents at least 600,000 people living in a significant structure complex, the smaller house clusters represent 480,000-500,000 people a tile, so the capital city is around 80,000-100,000 people per sq. mile. The Worldheart City has a population density of 1,000,000 people per square mile, whilst the Oldtown Residential Area has a population density of 5,000,000 people per square mile. Additionally, no one knows how many people live in the Black Lotus Inn. People who check into the Inn rarely leave, and the Inn appears to never have issues accommodating an ever-increasing roster of guests - despite being a fairly small building to outside observers, the Black Lotus Inn likely contains a few billion people. The Southeast Capital has even higher population density than the Middle Kingdom Capital, which should be a fun experience once my players are higher level. There will be regular checks to see if players are capable of moving upstream/downstream of foot traffic, whether players are frightened of the gargantuan urban sprawl and crowds, and if players are able to find which way they need to go. If they can get flying transport or a reliable local transport willing to work on retainer, they'll be able to move much safer and much faster.

Welcome to 1000 consecutive years of perfect harvests
DO NOT TOUCH
Over 4,000 years so far, with very few plagues, civil unrest, wars or natural disasters

That's gonna go real bad real quick, huh?
All I'm gonna say is I'm greatly enjoying the stat blocks for peasant hordes, zombie hordes, skeleton hordes and army hordes

1 peasant is not a challenge for an adventuring party. The neighbourhood is

But at least until they're level 11 I hope it won't be a problem. My players are still making characters, and thus far the population dynamic is going to make things very spicy. Currently one of my players is undecided. One is considering making an anarchist druid who resents central control of nature.

Another is RPing a small-town girl who grew up in a precarious middle-class family (they made money off of selling drinks, food and lodging to off duty soldiers from the Lonely Tower. As the soldiers came in seasonal waves, some weeks they'd make lots of money, the rest of the year, nothing). She's making her way to the Middle Kingdom to realise her hopes and dreams of becoming a famous wizard (caveat being, she's a bard with a banjo). Can't wait to see how that player (good RPer) acts out her wonder at the irresponsible scale of habitation unfolding.

The fourth player is probably going to have the most painful reaction to the scale of the city. They're RP'ing a wholesome grandma tortle, whose grandson left Drift City for a new life on the mainland. Only, both of his parents believe he didn't leave of his own free will, and is in danger. The authorities in Drift City don't care because it's not their jurisdiction anyways, and they are certain a boy moving to the big cities for a job is not a newsworthy occurrence. So she's got to find her grandson in the proverbial needle in the haystack... There are so many opportunities to sprinkle in NPCs who say they saw a tortle boy around these parts some time ago... Just left though.

-snip-
Yeah that math is about right. I calculated the size and population based off of real life cities present and past, but kept adding 0's and multiplying factors afterwards to make it a more unreasonable quantity of people. Easy nutrition, healing, people who don't die of old age and construction methods do help create literal oceans of bodies.
Mainly for megacrowd aesthetics; I like the idea of players walking through corridors lit by illusionary lights advertising 2 for 1 mangoes and sauteed dire rat, trying to find their way through millennia of unregulated housing construction and actual currents of people. Once you reach a certain population density crowds stop to move like a gas (people moving of their own individual volition) and start to move like a liquid (go with the flow or else you'll create pressure).
When people ran out of horizontal building space, they just started building houses on top of houses. The Oldtown Residential Towers are just the oldest surviving house stacks before the government decided to regulate the maximum height of buildings. Heavily inspired by the short story bilennium, where property space is such a scarce resource that people are limited to a 38sq ft room. Ideally, the players will associate the city with a continual erosion of their agency, and will strive to rise above it (literally, flying carpets and brooms with style) or gtfo (they will never look at open spaces the same way ever again)

Dostoevsky

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
« Reply #8103 on: June 03, 2020, 03:26:04 pm »

Hah, I'm guessing you took some inspiration from Kowloon Walled City then. Boy howdy.
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NJW2000

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
« Reply #8104 on: June 03, 2020, 03:37:10 pm »

My interest is very much piqued. How does life on the roofs/top of the buildings differ from the situation at the bottom of the stack?
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
« Reply #8105 on: June 03, 2020, 03:43:08 pm »

Additionally, no one knows how many people live in the Black Lotus Inn. People who check into the Inn rarely leave, and the Inn appears to never have issues accommodating an ever-increasing roster of guests - despite being a fairly small building to outside observers, the Black Lotus Inn likely contains a few billion people.
The Census Office of this city surely began fielding its own armies thousands of years ago, but this place is surely for the Census Black Ops or the elderly Census-Archmages suiting up for One Last Ride.

You might find this OSR supplement interesting and relevant, it details magical innovations causing the end of the world, one of which is this kind of space expansion scenario. At the highest stages, what was formerly a city becomes an impossible labyrinth of hallways, warehouses, and backrooms magically expanded beyond any reason or control which soon enough draws in the entire population.

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Imic

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
« Reply #8106 on: June 03, 2020, 03:46:56 pm »

What is the ‘Acident’?
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scriver

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
« Reply #8107 on: June 03, 2020, 04:00:10 pm »

Currently one of my players is undecided. One is considering making an anarchist druid who resents central control of nature.

It's hard when all you want is to be a lonely hermit in your meagre hovel in own little isolated corner of the world when population density is such that everywhere you go the every single isolated corner has to house at least a hundred people
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
« Reply #8108 on: June 03, 2020, 04:59:23 pm »

Hah, I'm guessing you took some inspiration from Kowloon Walled City then. Boy howdy.
yeaaa boiiiii
Oldtown district is kowloon x 1.75, so you get just a lil' bit more walled city for your buck. Though the money here isn't bucks, but sin. (Literally just paper money named after the first Emperor, Sin Farme, but it allows for lots of puns of children inheriting the sin of their forefathers, or the wages of sin).

My interest is very much piqued. How does life on the roofs/top of the buildings differ from the situation at the bottom of the stack?
People who live in the Worldheart City get to enjoy a city that was actually made with central planning in mind, as such it's very spacious per person, even for the menial servants. Lots of verticality, as the Worldheart City is actually a gargantuan Fortress that was converted to house the Middle Kingdom's subjects, way back when the outer walls didn't exist and the metropolitan area was still a series of villages.

Wall people live in the walls, towers and garrisons, and are almost entirely military families / descendants of military families. The walls are the most sparsely populated areas of the city. Each wall is semi-sentient and craves company; if the Wall Priests don't give the walls sufficient company, they occasionally forms comfortable rooms and passageways in the hopes of luring families into moving in. As such there are also many wall people who are not aware they are living in the wall until a patrol discovers them and orders the wall to patch up the breach, whilst there are wall people who live inside the walls dutifully worshiping the walls as benevolent protectors.

For the rest of the metropolitan area, life can be split between five zones

Roof People - surface dwellers who live on the top layer of the cityscape. The people grow flowers to attract colourful insects and fairies, grow fruit trees and fields of other luxurious foods. The housetops are linked by makeshift rope bridges, wooden planks and pulleys for transporting people and cargo. Roof runners are frequently seen, some jumping from house to house, others riding on exotic mounts like giant spiders or geckos, urgently carrying messages or food deliveries. Roof people are the primary cause of vertical sprawl; as they've grown accustomed to the surface world, any time their neighbours build up, they too build up. Thus the roof people are in a perpetual arms race to stay roof people. In order to keep the arms race slow, Roof people associations try to broker truces and armistices between neighbourhoods.

The Twilight People - people who are not close enough to the surface to feel the kiss of a cool breeze, but still close enough to the surface to see sunlight shining on through. The twilight zone forms the most productive and populated zone of the cityscape, where the overwhelming majority of all industry and living takes place. Here the school children climb through windows to reach their schools, here vines of melons, hops, tomatoes, berries of all kinds and grapes can be found overtaking railings and walls - with the occasional druid's operation growing a little out of hand until local street urchins find some way to hawk it off piece by piece. This place always carries the delicious smell of cooking in the morning, evening and afternoon, with the waft of wondrous broths and hot drinks carrying far and wide down the valleys of houses in all neighbourhoods rich and poor. When sun falls and moon rises, the Twilight Zone lights up with billions of illusionary lights, casting gentle glows in many shades throughout the many restaurants (delicious), threatre houses (dens of villainy and prostitution) and pubs (decidedly variable environments). The Twilight Zone is large enough that it appears to have its own internal weather system; for legal reasons lawyers of the Middle Kingdom argue that the Twilight Zone simply displays trickle down weather, and does not in fact constitute unregulated weather.

The Street Level - the markets, the pell-mell uproar of madness, the millions of multitudes from all walks of life trying to find their way through the streets large and small. Soothsayers publish almanacs dictating predicted rush hours and ebb hours, landmarks and street updates, the only hope for foreigners to navigate the city in good speed. On the streets anything may be found. Anything may be lost. The street level is not a place where many people live; street level living space is at an incredibly high premium, and the streets themselves are prime stampede ground. As such there are very few genuine "street people." Nets and gratings above protect pedestrians from falling objects above, but also remove much of what little natural light could filter down. Instead all light comes from advertising illusions, or whatever light people bring with them.
Drying laundry drips onto a frying oil pan, leaving a sizzle as a man stirs his legendary spicy ocean noodles. An incredibly burly bald Dwarf with a big bushy beard is wondering if you'll be stupid enough to make eye contact with him. An incredibly beautiful human is asking if you want to have a good time; you wonder if that's a poisoned dagger in their pants of if they're happy to see you. Judging from how quickly they run away, it was a poison dagger. Guard patrols walk by in formation, their Serjeant shouting for the crowds to make way for the King's Castle Guard. There is not enough room for people to make way, so they pile upon one another, desperate to get away from the guards with their sharp pikes and nail-capped boots. A few street people become adept at navigating the streets; these street rangers often end up employed by firefighters, detectives or clerics to help them hastily respond to emergencies.

The Abyss People are those who live below the street level. Those who live in the abyss have learned to live without light, or else already have darkvision or blindsense. The Office of Imperial Statistics is too scared to venture into the Abyss to conduct regular censuses here, nevertheless from observation at street level, it is clear the Abyss remains an important source of manufactured goods and alcohol. Critics blame this upon the habit of the powerful Dwarven criminal syndicate "the Plows of Victory", which has been known to form Fortresses within the Abyss zone. The Dwarves are not the only inhabitants; Trinity Elf Mafia engage in black market trade of organs, spell components and slaves. The Wayward Cloud bards are still at large, holding massive illegal concerts that echo throughout the city. The Second Circle Goblins wage war with the Plows of Victory for influence, whilst the Kobold gang Ifreetis periodically raids the markets of the street for loot. Here too are found the hidden entrances to the three main martial art schools of the Middle Kingdom. The House of Flying Daggers, who specialise in throwing daggers, and believe in fighting powerful oppressors and protecting the powerless. The House of Running Scissors, who specialise in reckless, fast strikes with dual-wielded weapons, and believe in freedom at all costs. Lastly, the House of Just Lifting, who specialise in physical training to achieve peak physical performance, in order to bring justice throughout the city.

Below even the Abyss people, are the sewers. The sewers do not have many permanent humanoid populations; most of the sewer populations are nomadic, moving between the sewers to reach different layers of the abyss or street. The sewers are an inherently hazardous place - there's lots of running water, potentially dangerous damp air, disease and blockages can cause tunnels to fill completely with sewage, flooding any homes built in the deep dark. The primary reason few dare to make a permanent home of the sewer however, is that there is a significant ooze population roaming throughout the sewers. The oozes greatly aid in the clearing of waste and blockages, purifying a lot of the water before it makes its way into the Pylo river. The oozes nevertheless pose a significant mortal risk to anyone walking through the sewers alone. Even the elite Sewer Commandos, sent in to clear exceptionally large blockages, will refuse to go into the sewers in groups smaller than 8. Whilst oozes will naturally clear blockages in the sewers, the Sewer Commandos prefer to destroy blockages manually, as blockages can artificially inflate the population of sewer oozes. This is trauma-based obligation as in the year 2463, one historic ooze known as "The Fatberg" grew so large feeding on a blockage, it began to spill forth into the Abyss, claiming many lives before being driven back underground. The Fatberg hasn't been seen since, but everyone still fears.

The Census Office of this city surely began fielding its own armies thousands of years ago, but this place is surely for the Census Black Ops or the elderly Census-Archmages suiting up for One Last Ride.
Please report to the Not Secret Police Tourism Office for your tourism brochure. You appear to be very well-informed of state secrets, and the state would like to reward you with a holiday package at the Black Lotus Inn

You might find this OSR supplement interesting and relevant, it details magical innovations causing the end of the world, one of which is this kind of space expansion scenario. At the highest stages, what was formerly a city becomes an impossible labyrinth of hallways, warehouses, and backrooms magically expanded beyond any reason or control which soon enough draws in the entire population.
That's pretty good, I love the bits about encouraging a slower pace and non-combat spell interactions. In my campaign I made it so there are lots of state holidays, weekends off, long rests are a week and short rests are 8 hours - so combat is few and far between, interactions are far more common, and when fights do happen they are very spicy.

I'm also tempted to recycle the Black Lotus Inn as its own setting. A hotel that detached from its own Universe to become a new Universe. Their idea of a pre-apocalyptic society is so up my alley you can find it in the city

Quote
One is considering making an anarchist druid who resents central control of nature.
I Can't Believe It's Not Posadism
If he makes his character a druid called Malthus and breaks the weather control system I am giving him a free feat

*EDIT
Currently one of my players is undecided. One is considering making an anarchist druid who resents central control of nature.
It's hard when all you want is to be a lonely hermit in your meagre hovel in own little isolated corner of the world when population density is such that everywhere you go the every single isolated corner has to house at least a hundred people
There's a heartbreaking moment in Bilennium where a dude discovers a whole, unused room. One where he can stretch his arms out and not touch a single wall. He invites one of his friends to share the room, then their friend brings a friend, then they bring their old parents, and they start setting up privacy walls...

What is the ‘Acident’?
A long time ago there was a potion seller, who made potions. His potions were too strong for anyone to drink, his potions would kill a dragon let alone a man. In fact, his potions were so strong, people wondered who he made his potions for, or if indeed he ever sold any potions. The potion seller never stopped creating stronger and stronger potions, until one day his workshop and everything around it for miles around disappeared, leaving behind only a gargantuan potion spill. All of the scholar-spellcasters and alchemists of the Kingdom have been stumped trying to remove the potion spill, but so far have only succeed in containing it. As the potion spill is only harmful if someone comes into contact with the potion spill, the bureaucrats decided to just build a wall around the accident until a permanent solution was discovered
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 05:12:05 pm by Loud Whispers »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
« Reply #8109 on: June 03, 2020, 05:56:11 pm »

Please report to the Not Secret Police Tourism Office for your tourism brochure. You appear to be very well-informed of state secrets, and the state would like to reward you with a holiday package at the Black Lotus Inn
If that one upset you, I can't imagine how angry you'll be when you find out I know there's an entire renegade branch of the census office contained within the Black Lotus Inn, slowly becoming numerically ascendant in it's Nth-dimensional walls and plotting a Final Count of our limited directions and times.

Quote
I'm also tempted to recycle the Black Lotus Inn as its own setting. A hotel that detached from its own Universe to become a new Universe. Their idea of a pre-apocalyptic society is so up my alley you can find it in the city
This would be a good backup if the party fucks up the game world beyond recovery. Even after the city has collapsed to the bedrock upon 100,000 concurrent disasters...there stands the Black Lotus Inn, as if it were always meant to be. Those doors could lead anywhere...

Quote
If he makes his character a druid called Malthus and breaks the weather control system I am giving him a free feat
Summon Terrible Weather 1/day

Quote
A long time ago there was a potion seller, who made potions. His potions were too strong for anyone to drink, his potions would kill a dragon let alone a man. In fact, his potions were so strong, people wondered who he made his potions for, or if indeed he ever sold any potions. The potion seller never stopped creating stronger and stronger potions, until one day his workshop and everything around it for miles around disappeared, leaving behind only a gargantuan potion spill. All of the scholar-spellcasters and alchemists of the Kingdom have been stumped trying to remove the potion spill, but so far have only succeed in containing it. As the potion spill is only harmful if someone comes into contact with the potion spill, the bureaucrats decided to just build a wall around the accident until a permanent solution was discovered
Kill a dragon, eh? I wonder...what a drop of that potion...might do for our dear Emperor?

That aside, spell WMDs are overdone but potion WMDs, now there's an idea with potential.
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Imic

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
« Reply #8110 on: June 03, 2020, 06:17:38 pm »

Quote
I'm also tempted to recycle the Black Lotus Inn as its own setting. A hotel that detached from its own Universe to become a new Universe. Their idea of a pre-apocalyptic society is so up my alley you can find it in the city
This would be a good backup if the party fucks up the game world beyond recovery. Even after the city has collapsed to the bedrock upon 100,000 concurrent disasters...there stands the Black Lotus Inn, as if it were always meant to be. Those doors could lead anywhere...
It should be noted that there’s actually a location a bit like that in established D&D lore, the World Serpent Inn. Not perfectly what you’re talking about, of course, it’s more like a mini-Universe between other Universes, the doors of which occasionally show up and let you head to somewhere else outside your dimension/plane/universe/crystal sphere.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
« Reply #8111 on: June 03, 2020, 07:03:08 pm »

If that one upset you, I can't imagine how angry you'll be when you find out I know there's an entire renegade branch of the census office contained within the Black Lotus Inn, slowly becoming numerically ascendant in it's Nth-dimensional walls and plotting a Final Count of our limited directions and times.
M8 you're gonna get turned into a statistic by statistic ninjas at this rate. That is knowledge only an arch-statistician could know, should know, or needs to know

This would be a good backup if the party fucks up the game world beyond recovery. Even after the city has collapsed to the bedrock upon 100,000 concurrent disasters...there stands the Black Lotus Inn, as if it were always meant to be. Those doors could lead anywhere...
You can check out any time you want, but you can never leave

Kill a dragon, eh? I wonder...what a drop of that potion...might do for our dear Emperor?
I'm thinking it'll be a wild magic table on steroids, with a very high chance of taking out dear leader with vigour

That aside, spell WMDs are overdone but potion WMDs, now there's an idea with potential.
Plus it's not a megacity without an industrial accident. Potion spillls have been known to have long term environmental effects that the big potion lobby doesn't want you to know about. Many a fisherman was beaten to death in a barfight by a seaabass after a coastline was polluted with potions of strength

It should be noted that there’s actually a location a bit like that in established D&D lore, the World Serpent Inn. Not perfectly what you’re talking about, of course, it’s more like a mini-Universe between other Universes, the doors of which occasionally show up and let you head to somewhere else outside your dimension/plane/universe/crystal sphere.
They're almost the same, could be the same institution just gone through some localisation branding ;P
I based my Black Lotus Inn on the Island of the Lotus Eaters from the Oddyssey, that one time Xenophon was worried he wouldn't want to go home after hunkering down in a picturesque town by the Euphrates, Hotel California and London opium dens. I'm a real sucker for mythological places that are threatening because they're just so *comfy* that the heroes forget their purpose for just a night, and after a night of enjoyment it's like 60 years have passed. They're wearing a hawaii shirt sipping a moscow mule whilst all of the Empire is dead because someone stuck the weather machine on apocalypse. I suppose the main difference between the BLI and the WS is that the WS wants you to go to another plane when you're ready, the BLI is really happy to have you stay, they insist on your comfort

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
« Reply #8112 on: June 09, 2020, 01:54:48 am »

Coming up with some new monster concepts... How about a psionic brain-eater with a permanent silence effect on it? I'm thinking of calling it the Mime Flayer.


And for 18+ adventures, we have the terrifying Gelatinous Pube and the KY jelly

scriver

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
« Reply #8113 on: June 09, 2020, 03:47:19 am »

Coming up with some new monster concepts... How about a psionic brain-eater with a permanent silence effect on it? I'm thinking of calling it the Mime Flayer.

Ok, but only if it traps it's prey behind an invisible psionic wall

Imagine it. You're walking along the dark city street, laughing and cayoling with your friends. First, nothing. Then you realised every noice suddenly went silent. You call to your friends, but they haven't noticed anything, and doesn't hear you. You try to catch up with them, but you walk into a glass wall that wasn't there just the second before, separating you from them. You feel it out, there's no way around it, it surrounds you. You slam your hands against it in vain. You scream for help, but nobody hears you.
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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
« Reply #8114 on: June 09, 2020, 07:26:24 am »

And then you get slowly pulled into the darkness by an invisible rope while silently screaming your voice out.
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