Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: flameaway on December 11, 2015, 02:45:35 am
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M = magma/water tile
xX = pump from west
ts = track stop, iron minecart, set to dump north (into a wall)
MxXts
That last line is a setup (powered from above and not detailed here) that I used to breach a magma shaft eleven z's below the volcano's top magma level. I had a dwarf channel directly into that shaft and they did so quite safely.
Meanwhile ten z's worth of lava drained down into my iron minecart and disappeared... yes, really.
Works with water as well.
As far as I can tell you can pump as much fluid onto that track stop as you want and the minecart will simply dump it into the wall to nowhere.
Properties:
The trackstop the wants to stay at 5/7 when the pump is pumping. Indeed, if a portable drain is setup in a large room, the PD will work to keep the entire room at 5/7.
The PD will drain a non pumped source... Say, you open a floor hatch from the bottom of your huge water tank... Properly setup the PD will drain that tank down to a single 5/7 tile of water. The PD will not drain as fast when fed this way. The pump/s force feed the PD, as fast as you can pump onto the PD. I set up four pumps to pump into a single PD tile. Each pump was fed from seven aquifer tiles. By counting the missing slices of water on pause, I was able to ballpark the rate of drainage at approximately 185 slices... At each pause..
A non pump fed PD drains at about two slices every fourteen ticks. (I tested a gravity fed PD at the bottom of a three tile vertical shaft. The shaft appears to drain faster at first so pressure might force feed the PD.)
The PD will not stop flow into open tiles, but as soon as the fluid has no place to go, the drain will destroy any further flow.
The track stop can be switched from "bottomless pit" mode to "fillable"
A water PD cannot accept magma. Each fluid must have it's own PD.
A pump can be used to dump fluids "directly" from the minecart. So a pump setup to pump from a tile that has a trackstop dumping into a wall, will empty the cart as it passes under the pump's feed hole.
The implications for flood prevention are obvious. Drowning chambers can now be designed without a recovery cycle.
Level of lava in volcanoes can be very easily controlled. Forts submerged in lava are easy to set up.
Lots of ways to use this gizmo.
Enjoy
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really interesting, probably the most constructive thing I can say is that does this method consume a lot of FPS withe the quantity that is being removed? And how did you come across this techique? (If relevant im sure the wiki would be interested to hear your drainage method)
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Oh wow! This is a new frontier in Dwarven Science! I won't need to drain fluids off the map anymore! All the water of the sea drained into one minecart! Wait till the folks at Murderflood get word of this!
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really interesting, probably the most constructive thing I can say is that does this method consume a lot of FPS withe the quantity that is being removed? And how did you come across this techique? (If relevant im sure the wiki would be interested to hear your drainage method)
I just used one pump to drain ten z's of lava down one switchable hole, in about three game months. I watched the frame rate and the pumping of a single pump had no noticeable effect. I have a slow computer so I'm very frame rate conscious.
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Frame rate slows a bit when I'm viewing the pumping level. Lose about five to ten frames per.
I was trying for a solid state mister, but got an dwarven sinkhole instead...handy.
If no one has come up with this gizmo, I'll Wiki it after getting reactions and thoughts from other Dwarfophiles
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Oh wow! This is a new frontier in Dwarven Science! I won't need to drain fluids off the map anymore! All the water of the sea drained into one minecart! Wait till the folks at Murderflood get word of this!
Yup. ;)
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This is a masterwork digital forum post. It is made from tubes and text.
Written on the item is a post entitled Do You Know the Portable Drain?,
authored by flameaway. It concerns the easy disposal of liquids. The writing
is stunningly novel. Overall, the prose is a masterful expression of the genre.
PTW
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If this works, I might be able to drain out a level of volcano and build even more rooms over it!
Workplace safety? Whoever heard of such a thing?
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If this works, I might be able to drain out a level of volcano and build even more rooms over it!
Workplace safety? Whoever heard of such a thing?
Or drain the volcano, build enclosed rooms, let the volcano replenish.
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Excellent ~Science~ sir or madam. The number of things this will revolutionize... shape-agnostic variant of the 2-slit aquifer piercing method, anyone?
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Excellent ~Science~ sir or madam. The number of things this will revolutionize... shape-agnostic variant of the 2-slit aquifer piercing method, anyone?
Oh wow, if this makes aquifers easier to penetrate I might actually play with them.
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So, in theory, this should work?
a = aquifer tile
t = track stop set to dump to a
x = stairs
aaaaaaa
attttta
atxxxta
atxxxta
atxxxta
attttta
aaaaaaa
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So, in theory, this should work?
a = aquifer tile
t = track stop set to dump to a
x = stairs
aaaaaaa
attttta
atxxxta
atxxxta
atxxxta
attttta
aaaaaaa
Well, not exactly. You'd need more tiles to fit the pumps.
I was thinking more about the fact that you wouldn't need to dig outflow channels at all, so:
....
.xxOOt▓
....
where the O's are the pump and the t is a track stop dumping into the wall to the east of it.
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Fascinating....now if only we could find out how to create an infinite amount of liquid from a single tile. I think I'll have to test this anomaly myself. To the chalk board, then!
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Fascinating....now if only we could find out how to create an infinite amount of liquid from a single tile. I think I'll have to test this anomaly myself. To the chalk board, then!
Like an aquifer? They generate infinite water.
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So, in theory, this should work?
a = aquifer tile
t = track stop set to dump to a
x = stairs
aaaaaaa
attttta
atxxxta
atxxxta
atxxxta
attttta
aaaaaaa
Well, not exactly. You'd need more tiles to fit the pumps.
I was thinking more about the fact that you wouldn't need to dig outflow channels at all, so:
....
.xxOOt▓
....
where the O's are the pump and the t is a track stop dumping into the wall to the east of it.
Actually, at this point, trackstop is not needed because the second OO is an unpassable tile, so just make a wall instead at that point.
My theory will now work because aquifer will leak trickles of water and will not go above 5/7 on the trackstop, and instead pour down the stairs.
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If this works, I might be able to drain out a level of volcano and build even more rooms over it!
Workplace safety? Whoever heard of such a thing?
Or drain the volcano, build enclosed rooms, let the volcano replenish.
I really like this idea. This is the closest we've ever gotten to a working magma submarine.
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Actually, at this point, trackstop is not needed because the second OO is an unpassable tile, so just make a wall instead at that point.
I was under the impression that pumps wouldn't pump without an "empty" space to pump into?
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If this works, I might be able to drain out a level of volcano and build even more rooms over it!
Workplace safety? Whoever heard of such a thing?
Or drain the volcano, build enclosed rooms, let the volcano replenish.
I really like this idea. This is the closest we've ever gotten to a working magma submarine.
You could forcefully restrict hatches to the surface and make drain docking stations
(small circular tower with a retractable bridge, lowering the lava levels with a drain reveals a trading depot and magma proof hatch entrances to your base, simply repump and reset when the traders are gone, carefully managing the retraction of the bridge behind them to resubmerge into lava and warm *almost safety. underneath the surface depot in the hatches would be a staircase built inside the lava cistern connected to your base.)
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Concerning using trackstops to dump back into aquifers...aquifers produce more water than mine carts can dump. So, don't think your idea will work.
Keep in mind, my doohickey is dumping into a wall and immediately refilling itself. My guess is that the game just hiccups and deletes the extra water coming in from the pump. A track stop dumping into a wall keeps the water level high enough that dwarves will not respond to fill pond orders, even though the hole reads five of seven, the game sees that pond as full.
It's a bug, but a nice one...like a butterfly
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Probably because there is 7/7 in the tile, but the 2/7 goes inside the minecart, and what remains is 5/7.
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Hey so, I was testing out the new version's harvestable nuts, and decided to mess around with this/see if it works as an aquifer piercer.
The answer is yes!
(http://i.imgur.com/5ZTD646.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/Z7Xg0TP.png)
All you need to do is make sure that the trackstop/minecart dump tile you're pumping into is sealed off. The water level on that tile is a steady 5/7. Since it's 5/7, the pump thinks there's room to put the water!
I've confirmed that this isn't a previously-undiscovered function of pumps themselves - pumping into a wall or an empty tile doesn't keep drawing water out of the aquifer.
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Hey so, I was testing out the new version's harvestable nuts, and decided to mess around with this/see if it works as an aquifer piercer.
The answer is yes!
(http://i.imgur.com/5ZTD646.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/Z7Xg0TP.png)
All you need to do is make sure that the trackstop/minecart dump tile you're pumping into is sealed off. The water level on that tile is a steady 5/7. Since it's 5/7, the pump thinks there's room to put the water!
I've confirmed that this isn't a previously-undiscovered function of pumps themselves - pumping into a wall or an empty tile doesn't keep drawing water out of the aquifer.
Have you been through more than one aquifer level?
I've seen a pump delete lava by itself. I set up a pump over a magma pool. The pump brings lava from the pump intake, pumps it onto an open tile so that the flow comes back along the pump and back down the intake. Like a DWR but no channel needed for the water wheel. Anyway that setup will delete a whole level of magma from a volcano. Seems like when you force more fluids into a tile than the tile can handle, the game "loses" the excess somehow. A pump setup like this doesn't force fluid into a tile as fast as the portable drain, so the loss isn't real noticeable.
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Have you been through more than one aquifer level?
Nope. Was only testing it to have something to do while my nuts ripened.
I've seen a pump delete lava by itself. I set up a pump over a magma pool. The pump brings lava from the pump intake, pumps it onto an open tile so that the flow comes back along the pump and back down the intake. Like a DWR but no channel needed for the water wheel. Anyway that setup will delete a whole level of magma from a volcano. Seems like when you force more fluids into a tile than the tile can handle, the game "loses" the excess somehow. A pump setup like this doesn't force fluid into a tile as fast as the portable drain, so the loss isn't real noticeable.
...I thought this was the portable drain... :-\ What did I get wrong?
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I fail to see how this method would be better than the double-slit one for piercing aquifers, given all the extra construction needed to isolate the output tile after building a track stop on it, unless I've missed some clever twist.
However, it sounds quite useful for dealing with open fluids, where you otherwise run the risk of killing your pumper by sweeping it into the drink. With a sufficiently large array you might actually be able to do construction in the magma sea with limited risk to the dorfs involved (the pumps would be powered to avoid unfortunate accidents when a pumper tires, of course).
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I fail to see how this method would be better than the double-slit one for piercing aquifers, given all the extra construction needed to isolate the output tile after building a track stop on it, unless I've missed some clever twist.
The main benefit to me is that it allows you to widen the opening without repeatedly piercing the aquifer. I don't like all the extra aquifer outflows that are left over when I widen my 2-slit punch into a proper, wagon-passable ramp. :)
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I just expand the double-slit with a third row for wagons. As long as the aquifer isn't too deep that works perfectly fine for me, but a third row does generate more cancellations than a two row one.
On the other hand, my main staircase is a staircase, so a wagon path is made specifically to take wagons, not stairs retrofitted later on.
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I fail to see how this method would be better than the double-slit one for piercing aquifers, given all the extra construction needed to isolate the output tile after building a track stop on it, unless I've missed some clever twist.
However, it sounds quite useful for dealing with open fluids, where you otherwise run the risk of killing your pumper by sweeping it into the drink. With a sufficiently large array you might actually be able to do construction in the magma sea with limited risk to the dorfs involved (the pumps would be powered to avoid unfortunate accidents when a pumper tires, of course).
I messed about with aquifers and these dwarven sinkholes. I did not find the portable drain very useful for that task. However, using it to pierce a volcano safely and at any depth is super handy. I in the process of casting a huge block of obsidian... Inside the shaft. Because I want to mine out my lava submarine, not construct it... Can't engrave constructions. Also want to know if such a fort would be considered inside.
The whole thing will submerge, once I stop draining the magma down a portable hole.
You can constructing buildings in that pumps intake channel, you know? All while z levels of magma hover over your dwarven builders. A grate makes sense, or a floodgate, but what about a roller? Put another PD there and seal off the opening, and you've permanently lowered the level off magma in the shaft.
Also makes fluid traps wayyyy easier to set up and manage.
And my plumbing system just got way more compact... no more draining off the edge of the map, or into the caverns for me.
Finally, just for giggles, consider a minecart loaded with water on a track stop dumping into a wall. Can you fill that hole with magma when the track stop is switched off, not dumping?
What happens when you switch the stop on?
I'm gonna find out.
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You'll have to wait for DFHack to try turning track stops on and off, though. Sound's like an interesting test, though.
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You'll have to wait for DFHack to try turning track stops on and off, though. Sound's like an interesting test, though.
Why? You can just link the stop to a lever, or pressure plate. Track stops are switchable.
For example, with a portable drain you can link the stop to a lever. In a normal setup, when the lever is off, and the track stop is dumping into a wall, the fluid level will trend toward 5/7. You really have to force fluids into that hole to get the level to rise above five. Flip the lever and the stop ceases dumping so, if you keep the pump running the level will rise, and fluids will act normally.
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Oh! I had no idea you could link track stops. Thanks for enlighten me!
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Love the thinking behind it, truly innovative. Sat down to hook one up to the plumbing in my old science fort - while keeping the water source going.
Setup: My plumbing is an aquifer pierced from below, from there a few horizontal tiles for emergency shutdown, a 2x2x5 water reservoir and from there a straight down stair. Put the PD (no pump, only minecart stop set to dump into wall) about 40 z-levels below the aquifer behind a door directly next to the "pipe".
Finding: It drained down to the lowest of the 5 z levels in the reservoir, which remained on 6-7 water level, it never reduced water levels any lower (30+ column of water in the pipe + lowest reservoir level untouched). I.e. the capacity of the PD depends on water flow and finds an equilibrium with the water source even when it initially can lower fluid levels.
Applications: Simple drainage, really easy traps based on permanent flow + drainage (shutting off drainage results in instant raise of fluid), new swimming pool / shower designs, prevention of climate change (dump all the carbon dioxide into a wall).
P.S. A door linked to a lever works as small footprint emergency drainage without edge connection as well (not good to run permanently, though).
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Love the thinking behind it, truly innovative. Sat down to hook one up to the plumbing in my old science fort - while keeping the water source going.
Setup: My plumbing is an aquifer pierced from below, from there a few horizontal tiles for emergency shutdown, a 2x2x5 water reservoir and from there a straight down stair. Put the PD (no pump, only minecart stop set to dump into wall) about 40 z-levels below the aquifer behind a door directly next to the "pipe".
Finding: It drained down to the lowest of the 5 z levels in the reservoir, which remained on 6-7 water level, it never reduced water levels any lower (30+ column of water in the pipe + lowest reservoir level untouched). I.e. the capacity of the PD depends on water flow and finds an equilibrium with the water source even when it initially can lower fluid levels.
Applications: Simple drainage, really easy traps based on permanent flow + drainage (shutting off drainage results in instant raise of fluid), new swimming pool / shower designs, prevention of climate change (dump all the carbon dioxide into a wall).
P.S. A door linked to a lever works as small footprint emergency drainage without edge connection as well (not good to run permanently, though).
I have a question in regards to this 'swimming pool', could you make a shower using said portable drain below some floor grates that will rise through into a small area with ramp access, (grates require 2x2 maximum unless you created a chessboard alignment and flooded them all, which may be useful for mass showering a large area if you can force the water up enough, could work too with lava :P)
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I have not played with this technology yet, but it looks like it should be useful for a simple, elegant mist generator. Aquifer or river or brook generates infinite water, which falls down, makes mist, then drains into the black hole. No power needed. (Or is mist simply not a design factor any more, with temples and taverns providing so much joy?)
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Love the thinking behind it, truly innovative. Sat down to hook one up to the plumbing in my old science fort - while keeping the water source going.
Setup: My plumbing is an aquifer pierced from below, from there a few horizontal tiles for emergency shutdown, a 2x2x5 water reservoir and from there a straight down stair. Put the PD (no pump, only minecart stop set to dump into wall) about 40 z-levels below the aquifer behind a door directly next to the "pipe".
Finding: It drained down to the lowest of the 5 z levels in the reservoir, which remained on 6-7 water level, it never reduced water levels any lower (30+ column of water in the pipe + lowest reservoir level untouched). I.e. the capacity of the PD depends on water flow and finds an equilibrium with the water source even when it initially can lower fluid levels.
Applications: Simple drainage, really easy traps based on permanent flow + drainage (shutting off drainage results in instant raise of fluid), new swimming pool / shower designs, prevention of climate change (dump all the carbon dioxide into a wall).
P.S. A door linked to a lever works as small footprint emergency drainage without edge connection as well (not good to run permanently, though).
[/quotes]
Concerning your finding: I agree that gravity feeding a PD is not the most efficient way to use the drain. However, had you inserted a pump between the tank you were draining and the hole...had you pumped the tank into the hole, the entire contents, but for 5/7 would have drained away.
Thanks for confirming my results, and passing along the info on large scale gravity feeding. I think I'll do a wiki article on the PD.
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Concerning your finding: I agree that gravity feeding a PD is not the most efficient way to use the drain. However, had you inserted a pump between the tank you were draining and the hole...had you pumped the tank into the hole, the entire contents, but for 5/7 would have drained away.
Thanks for confirming my results, and passing along the info on large scale gravity feeding. I think I'll do a wiki article on the PD.
It is impressively efficient and simple, definitely should be on the wiki.
The biggest limitation (for the PD and other drainage schemes) seems to be how fast you get water into it, not how much it can process. Pumps may speed up things, but have the same limitation since you can only pump what arrives in the input tile.
Some unconnected ideas / questions:
* Can a messed up double-slit aquifer site that removed the last interior aquifer tile too early be recovered by a PD?
* Using a hatch/door for a start of drain without delay and a link to the trackstop for an end of drain without delay looks like a good combination (both working on ON signals).
@fantasticdorf: Swimming pool / shower are not euphemisms for drowning/magma chambers, but worthwhile applications in their own right for cleaning, happiness and swimming skill / attribute training. All of which should be possible with improved designs now.
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@fantasticdorf: Swimming pool / shower are not euphemisms for drowning/magma chambers, but worthwhile applications in their own right for cleaning, happiness and swimming skill / attribute training. All of which should be possible with improved designs now.
I meant in the sense that by close management of the drain you could apply it to be a on demand. I already have a hypothetical design in mind (im no fluids expert, but if it creates inspiration for people to try its worthwhile) obviously this design is small for the purposes of demonstration.
KEY: (B stands for bridge, R for ramp, G for grate and F for floor)
BBB
RRR
FGF
GFG
FGF
RRR
BBB
Water would be funneled in through a pierced aquifer cistern with a PD below and contained by floodgates 2 tiles below the grates to each individual grate, depending on the size of the room you could release one in the middle and shut it off again to let the water dispersion thin the tiles to a walking shower space or a swimming space (ramps used for purpose) lower the water with the PD and release all floodgates to empty the floor, using the same method vertically, making a 'pipe' running off a seperate aquifer channel to drop floodwater above through the grates (and subsequent open floodgates else it will spill over) while its draining can also produce mist.
More offensively you could lure invaders within with a statue or base design to that area on the non grated floor, seal them inside, release the floodgates en masse and let the water build up while the bridges shut behind them walling them inside. Filling it to full of water or other fluid of your choice until they drown.
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Just set up my first test case and I'm impressed by the results. I want to drain a significant amount of lava from a Volcano to install a temple inside the column. It's deep so I'd like to speed up the process. My question, since the limitation seems to be how fast you can get fluid to the PD not how fast the PD can dispose of it, is, would multiple pumps pumping to a single PD be as efficient as multiple pumps each pumping to their own PD? Does that make sense. If the science hasn't been done, I guess It'll be my first DF science project.
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@taptap:
As far as I understand the method, a messed up double-slit can be salvaged with a PD.
However, you can salvage it using the double-slit method as well (had to do it myself when I was cocky enough to think I'd understood how to do it):
Switch the 3:rd and 4:th sections of the double slit lowest level around. You probably realize you've screwed up when starting on the 4:th section and find the water doesn't drain. At that stage, turn the pump around again (to pump from 3 to 4), remove a piece of wall to get a drain, turn the pump around, now treat the 4:th section as you should have done with the 3:rd one, i.e. leaving a sink tile undisturbed, turn the pump around again and reseal the wall.
My guess is that double-slit salvage is still less work than a PD. I want to clarify that I think the PD is an impressive find with a nice potential, but aquifer penetration is probably not where it shines the brightest.
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Never used the double slit method.
(Shrugs)
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PTW
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So does it mean you can store infinite amounts of magma into a minecart, and does it mean when you empty the minecart it suddenly goes all Boatmurdered and floods the local map tile with magma ?
I assume the minecart cartoonishly inflates as it gets magma in it.
Because there are some interesting applications for magma traps...
Edit: Ah, no. It just deletes magma. Ah, still nice.
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I wish it stored fluids... I'da called it the portable reservoir, and you lot would be composing odes about me. Alas, for my visions of mass admiration, the PD only deletes fluids.
On the other hand, you could always load a bunch of mine carts with lava and another bunch with water. Put them all on a trackstop with a lever linked to it. Flip the lever to dump... Makes a nice mess...of anything flammable. All from a single tile.
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Just a question - if things can path through fortifications when both sides are submerged in 7/7 liquid, could you use your portable drain as a sort of lockdown that will hold against building destroyers?
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Just a question - if things can path through fortifications when both sides are submerged in 7/7 liquid, could you use your portable drain as a sort of lockdown that will hold against building destroyers?
You may be able to stop people swimming through fortifications this way, but flow can push things and persons through it, as far as I know. So you are trading risks instead of making it safe. If you look for safe water supplies from the surface/cavern floor grates are your friend.