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Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: CT on June 21, 2011, 01:33:58 am

Title: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: CT on June 21, 2011, 01:33:58 am
Yep I want to know how to build one they seem useful and all purpose, the problem being if I order the dwarfs to channel they get stuck and outside of that i dont know how to build said trap. A link or quick run down would me most appreciated. :)
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: NecroRebel on June 21, 2011, 01:41:35 am
For a channel, you must have some way out of the channel. In general, if you just designate the topmost level for channeling, let it finish, then repeat until you're at the bottom of where you want to be, your pit will work fine without any injuries, and then you just have to dig an exit. It's possible to make a deep pit with no way out, but needlessly difficult and aesthetically unpleasing.

As far as the trap itself, it's basically just a 1-tile-wide pathway next to a pit. The pathway has weapon or upright spike traps on it. That's it; that's the whole thing. The traps just attack enemies and the enemies dodge, usually off into open air, where they fall, hopefully to their deaths.



Personally, I find them somewhat pointless; it seems like no enemies but weapon lords actually dodge traps consistently, and they usually either aren't dangerous enough alone or run away once their squad gets diced. Just having the weapon traps does just as much as having the weapon traps next to a pit.
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: Xaft on June 21, 2011, 01:42:37 am
never actually made one before but the way i picture it is a 3 tile wide corridor, with the 2 side tiles channeled out and the middle tiles lined with traps. and the channeled out spots need to be a good amount of z-levels deep and if you plan to kill everything that falls in, load the "pits with upright spear traps with some good training spears. and to do that your going to have to dig out a way to get to the bottom of the pits with your miners, but once all the spears are loaded, you can wall it off, unless you want to access the dead bodys for loot, in which case build a door and forbid it until you need to collect the equipment.

at least, that's how i picture it in my head, and is probably how ill do it
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: Thorus on June 21, 2011, 02:08:34 am
As described before:

left: evil outside world
right: nice inner fortress

Z+0:
Code: [Select]
WWWWWWWWWWWW
............
<FTTTTTTTTTT
............
WWWWWWWWWWWW

Z-1 to Z-n:
Code: [Select]
WWWWWWWWWWWW
WW..........
xF..........
WW..........
WWWWWWWWWWWW

Z-bottom:
Code: [Select]
WWWWWWWWWWWW
WWSSSSSSSSSS
<FSSSSSSSSSS
WWSSSSSSSSSS
WWWWWWWWWWWW
> / < / x - stairs
W - wall
. - open Space
T - weapon trap
S - upright spear trap
F - floor


This thread: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87040.0

Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: CT on June 21, 2011, 02:07:10 pm
Thanks for the help, and this trap is mainly just so i can watch goblins elves fall to their deaths
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: eataTREE on June 21, 2011, 02:09:34 pm
For added Dwarfiness, add upright spikes in the deployed state (b -> T -> S) to the bottom of the pit. Make sure the pit is more than one Z-level deep or the spikes won't do any damage.
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: nomad_delta on June 21, 2011, 02:58:22 pm
Here's the really simple dodge-me-ish trap I built for the entrance to my fort:

First, the surface.  Note the zig-zag 1-tile walkway with the traps on it.  The primary purpose of this trap/entrance is to keep the invaders in front of my marksdwarves (in the tower on the left, behind the fortifications) for as long as possible.  I also recently installed an "emergency storm shutter" using a retracting draw bridge in front of the fortifications in case Elite Goblin Crossbowmen show up and start decimating my marksdwarves.  That also gives the civilians a chance to run upstairs and carry away any injured marksdwarves, and usually causes the marksdwarves to run and reload their ammo since they can no longer see any targets.

(http://i.imgur.com/sJn6A.png)

Then, down a z-level.  It's only one z-level deep so dodging doesn't actually kill anything, but the goblins then have to go back to the beginning and through the traps again, being turned to pincushions by my marksdwarves the whole time.
(http://i.imgur.com/QbRfm.png)

--nomad_delta



Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: CT on June 21, 2011, 03:53:15 pm
I llike the design for your trap but what happens if a troll gets knocked down into the pit?
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: kotekzot on June 21, 2011, 03:56:18 pm
Quote from: CT on June 21, 2011, 03:53:15 pm
I llike the design for your trap but what happens if a troll gets knocked down into the pit?
It goes up the ramp and has another go, like any other non-flier, I would imagine.
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: eataTREE on June 21, 2011, 04:01:13 pm
Trolls can't knock down constructed walls or floors (and neither can anything else) if that is what you are worried about.
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: nomad_delta on June 21, 2011, 04:04:43 pm
Quote from: kotekzot on June 21, 2011, 03:56:18 pm
Quote from: CT on June 21, 2011, 03:53:15 pm
I llike the design for your trap but what happens if a troll gets knocked down into the pit?
It goes up the ramp and has another go, like any other non-flier, I would imagine.

Exactly.  There's no doors or anything in the pit for a troll or other building-destroyer to smash, so they just walk back up the ramp (the single yellow one on the right-hand side) and have to try going through the traps again.

That said, I haven't had any fliers show up yet, and this setup won't be at all effective against them if/when they do since they'll just fly right over the traps.  That's kinda why I dropped that line of cage traps in the final tunnel to catch anything that manages to get past all the dodge-me weapon traps.

If anything gets past those it's up to my military to mop up.  :P

--nomad_delta
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: orrey on June 21, 2011, 04:30:31 pm
Quote from: NecroRebel on June 21, 2011, 01:41:35 am
Personally, I find them somewhat pointless; it seems like no enemies but weapon lords actually dodge traps consistently, and they usually either aren't dangerous enough alone or run away once their squad gets diced. Just having the weapon traps does just as much as having the weapon traps next to a pit.


Dodge traps have some advantages.  They'll never jam as long as the weapons in them are too poor to actually kill anything, make cleanup much easier (if the fall leads into a magma chamber, for example).  They're also good for training recruits; a nonfatal 3-4 z-level fall will leave enemies crippled, stunned, and disorganized for your dwarves to then descend upon.
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: Qwernt on June 21, 2011, 05:53:00 pm
I Like to build dodge-me into magma traps.  Sometimes straight into the volcano, sometimes with the intent of getting goblinite.
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: MrFluffums on June 22, 2011, 12:35:40 pm
I usually just make a dodgefall into a cavern, and make them fight their way out.  Essentially how it works for me is from Saferoom (where I make a 5x5 room with a candy hatch and stairs, usually steel+ walls and overhanging floor) they go down into 2 Z levels of maze traps ending in a Dodge Me!  which falls them into a cavern several Z-Layers below.  If they make it past the Dodge Me!  They face guards with a threat level of 1-3 (of 5).  If they survive the fall (water is often strategically, and sadistically placed), then they have to battle their way out of the cavern so that they can get picked off by non-official Royal Guards (candy often works well on them).

I like to make it so that there are no doors until after the Guardians.  I haven't had a single thing survive that squadron except for the circus, and if you're afraid of them, have the Guardians patrol a trap maze.
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: Psieye on June 22, 2011, 02:18:45 pm
Quote from: nomad_delta on June 21, 2011, 02:58:22 pm
Here's the really simple dodge-me-ish trap I built for the entrance to my fort:

First, the surface.  Note the zig-zag 1-tile walkway with the traps on it.  The primary purpose of this trap/entrance is to keep the invaders in front of my marksdwarves (in the tower on the left, behind the fortifications) for as long as possible.  I also recently installed an "emergency storm shutter" using a retracting draw bridge in front of the fortifications in case Elite Goblin Crossbowmen show up and start decimating my marksdwarves.  That also gives the civilians a chance to run upstairs and carry away any injured marksdwarves, and usually causes the marksdwarves to run and reload their ammo since they can no longer see any targets.

Then, down a z-level.  It's only one z-level deep so dodging doesn't actually kill anything, but the goblins then have to go back to the beginning and through the traps again, being turned to pincushions by my marksdwarves the whole time.

--nomad_delta
Note you may occasionally get the lucky goblin who double-dodges in the correct direction to circumvent whole sections of your trap. This is why my dodge-me traps have a solid wall or a 3-tile gap between the lanes with my marksdwarves shooting from above.
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: thijser on June 22, 2011, 03:36:49 pm
And remember that if you are going to use weapon traps then you need to use low quality weapons and mechanisms as this will cause the enemy to dodge more often. However if you are using upright weapon traps then you should use high quality mechanisms and low quality spears as this allows for more attacks (in upright weapon traps mechanism quality determines attack speed (if you have a good mechanism in the lever aswell) whereas in weapon traps the mechanism determines the hit rate).
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: Lamiales on September 08, 2011, 10:51:10 pm
Quote from: thijser on June 22, 2011, 03:36:49 pm
And remember that if you are going to use weapon traps then you need to use low quality weapons and mechanisms as this will cause the enemy to dodge more often. However if you are using upright weapon traps then you should use high quality mechanisms and low quality spears as this allows for more attacks (in upright weapon traps mechanism quality determines attack speed (if you have a good mechanism in the lever aswell) whereas in weapon traps the mechanism determines the hit rate).
Did anyone actually test any of this? Sounds like speculation to me. (sorry for necro)
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: Kattel on September 09, 2011, 12:29:35 am
well ive tried alot of different combinations in my dodge trap. i use them almost exclusively for the first 2-3 years of a fort (fort defence mod).

what works best for me is low quality menacing spikes with low quality mech's. 9x9x10+ hole, 1x4 floor connected to a down stair column in middle leading into my fortress. 4 full weapon traps and im safe till i start getting flyers. station military at bottom of hole for the 'nothing bothers me' effect. had this fail only once when a white tigerman leader landed on a cat. tore my fortress a new one....
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: Urist Da Vinci on September 09, 2011, 12:30:55 am
Quote from: Lamiales on September 08, 2011, 10:51:10 pm
Quote from: thijser on June 22, 2011, 03:36:49 pm
And remember that if you are going to use weapon traps then you need to use low quality weapons and mechanisms as this will cause the enemy to dodge more often. However if you are using upright weapon traps then you should use high quality mechanisms and low quality spears as this allows for more attacks (in upright weapon traps mechanism quality determines attack speed (if you have a good mechanism in the lever aswell) whereas in weapon traps the mechanism determines the hit rate).
Did anyone actually test any of this? Sounds like speculation to me. (sorry for necro)

The above quote isn't completely true.

- You do want to use low quality weapons and low-quality mechanisms in the "dodge" weapon traps, because you don't actually want to injure/kill the enemy. If they don't have a shield to block with, they will probably dodge the poorly-aimed attacks.

- Upright spears/spikes placed at the bottom of a pit don't need mechanisms. Creatures just fall on them. Use high-quality weapons here.

- If you do connect upright spears/spikes to a lever or repeater to make them retract and extend, the speed is constant regardless of mechanism quality.
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: Poindexterity on September 09, 2011, 02:32:58 am
Quote from: nomad_delta on June 21, 2011, 02:58:22 pm
-awesome pics of wicked mean trap area-
i like it.
as an improvement, id build 5, 1 tile wide bridges, connected to a single lever, so that when it's just dwarves coming and going, they wont have to walk the winding path.
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: Lamiales on September 09, 2011, 05:35:47 am
Quote from: Urist Da Vinci on September 09, 2011, 12:30:55 am
Quote from: Lamiales on September 08, 2011, 10:51:10 pm
Quote from: thijser on June 22, 2011, 03:36:49 pm
And remember that if you are going to use weapon traps then you need to use low quality weapons and mechanisms as this will cause the enemy to dodge more often.
Did anyone actually test any of this? Sounds like speculation to me. (sorry for necro)
- You do want to use low quality weapons and low-quality mechanisms in the "dodge" weapon traps, because you don't actually want to injure/kill the enemy. If they don't have a shield to block with, they will probably dodge the poorly-aimed attacks.

Ok, i did a little bit of testing myself, and my findings are as follows: Higher weaponskill produces more dodges and not less, so better quality mechanisms should produce more dodges too. However, you are right in that you may want to produce more dodges/wounding hit and this ratio is better with low weapon skill.

Conclusions:
- If you don't really care about keeping invaders alive, and need to defend effectively, use the best available equip. You get more hits and more dodges.
- If you want only dodges, I would suggest using high quality mechanisms and weapons, but harmless ones. I saw silver serrated disks mentioned somewhere and they should do fine. Training weapons should be good too.
- This also goes for your danger room: use high quality equipment and you dwarves should skill up dodge quicker! (doubt that is very practical information since the danger room is fast enough either way, but it is something you could potentially verify/falsify with testing)

The model that explains this behaviour is that the attacker first rolls for a successful attack or miss. Then the defender rolls for dodging. The dodging roll is influenced by the skill of the attacker too, but not as much as a higher skill would mean less dodging events, only the ratio changes.

Disclaimer: it was just a really short test so i could be completely wrong :D Also, i don't know what exactly causes jamming in a weapon trap; if it's never caused by misses you might want to use low quality equip.

PS: Another thing i wondered for danger room design is if confined space influences the rate of dodging. Will dwarves dodge less if they have only one sqare to dodge to?

Edit: After some more general combat testing:
- Dodge indeed increases the chance to get missed, not only to dodge.
- High dodge also increases the chance of a counterstrike per dodge/miss.
- A high weapon or fighter skill helps hitting a dodger.
- High fighter skill makes your charge a ferocious onslaught, you dont collide anymore.
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: outofpractice on September 09, 2011, 08:50:07 am
With your dodge'em trap, if you want it to be fatal, all you do is make it 10z lvls. That kills everything I've come accross. Except for enemies that landed on other enemies, but thats something that you can't control.

One thing that no one has suggested yet, is the use of retracting bridges along the trap. This gives your dwarves a larger walking area, then when an enemy shows up, retract the bridges so the path goes back to 1 tile wide path again. Makes cleaning up quicker as well.
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: Nameless Archon on September 09, 2011, 09:09:10 am
Quote from: outofpractice on September 09, 2011, 08:50:07 am
With your dodge'em trap, if you want it to be fatal, all you do is make it 10z lvls. That kills everything I've come accross. Except for enemies that landed on other enemies, but thats something that you can't control.
More can sometimes (rarely) be needed - goblins will sometimes survive with crippling injuries. 15z should be universally fatal. Typically, the additional levels are just a nice feature and not a particularly required thing.

Quote
One thing that no one has suggested yet, is the use of retracting bridges along the trap. This gives your dwarves a larger walking area, then when an enemy shows up, retract the bridges so the path goes back to 1 tile wide path again. Makes cleaning up quicker as well.
Additionally, you'll need a 3-wide path for wagons, so allowing them to cross bridges in times of peace will help keep your fortress operating smoothly. Consider creating two paths out of your fort - one 3-wide that you only open briefly to let the traders out (and the siege to kill them) and one you leave open 3-wide in peace and 1-wide (with dodge traps) in war.
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: Urist Da Vinci on September 09, 2011, 09:12:53 am
Quote from: Lamiales on September 09, 2011, 05:35:47 am
...

I just checked my massive gamelog file, and can't see an instance of a trap recording a "miss" in the combat log. The only things that were protecting the goblins from the traps were shield blocks, dodges, or the weapon deflecting off their armor. Higher quality mechanisms were blocked/dodged less, not more.
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: Lamiales on September 09, 2011, 10:08:36 am
Quote from: Urist Da Vinci on September 09, 2011, 09:12:53 am
Quote from: Lamiales on September 09, 2011, 05:35:47 am
...

I just checked my massive gamelog file, and can't see an instance of a trap recording a "miss" in the combat log. The only things that were protecting the goblins from the traps were shield blocks, dodges, or the weapon deflecting off their armor. Higher quality mechanisms were blocked/dodged less, not more.

Interesting. A bit weird that they can't miss. The higher quality mechanism being dodged less would be my result too without missing blows. Low quality mechanisms it is then.
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: Ninjamestari on September 09, 2011, 11:07:29 am
Here is a dodge me trap that i use in my current fort:
Z+0
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Z-1
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Repeat the Z-1 level over 10 times to get a fatal drop and link the retractable bridges to a lever in your meeting area. My trap has a 18-level-drop and it kills everything that falls so I don't need any traps in the bottom level. I also have some real iron weapons mixed in so that enemies who don't dodge well enough will get killed by them.
Title: Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
Post by: Mechanixm on September 09, 2011, 04:34:45 pm
Quote from: Nameless Archon on September 09, 2011, 09:09:10 am
Quote from: outofpractice on September 09, 2011, 08:50:07 am
With your dodge'em trap, if you want it to be fatal, all you do is make it 10z lvls. That kills everything I've come accross. Except for enemies that landed on other enemies, but thats something that you can't control.
More can sometimes (rarely) be needed - goblins will sometimes survive with crippling injuries. 15z should be universally fatal. Typically, the additional levels are just a nice feature and not a particularly required thing.

Quote
One thing that no one has suggested yet, is the use of retracting bridges along the trap. This gives your dwarves a larger walking area, then when an enemy shows up, retract the bridges so the path goes back to 1 tile wide path again. Makes cleaning up quicker as well.
Additionally, you'll need a 3-wide path for wagons, so allowing them to cross bridges in times of peace will help keep your fortress operating smoothly. Consider creating two paths out of your fort - one 3-wide that you only open briefly to let the traders out (and the siege to kill them) and one you leave open 3-wide in peace and 1-wide (with dodge traps) in war.


You currently do not need a 3tile wide hallway to accommodate traders.  They can path in to your fort just fine, right now, with 1tile wide hallways and stairs, etc.