Post by: webadict on July 03, 2022, 12:43:36 pm
This is Bring Your Own Role (BYOR) Mafia (specifically for Beginners), where you submit a role name to me (and preferably a wiki link, if it's not something commonplace.) What roles are available? Pretty much anything! Want some ideas? Look in the spoiler!
Spoiler: Role Ideas (click to show/hide)
How to join:
- First, post that you are in in bold. New players will always get priority.
- Second, send your preferred role name to me, webadict.
- Third, I will notify you when the game starts, with your role.
These sign-ups may be longer than other games because this game is geared specifically for inexperienced and new players! If you wish to join, but this game is currently running, simply post as such in one of the pinned threads.
How to play:
Never played before? Have no fear! We have a couple players that will try their best to help you play. The Town must find the Mafia and eliminate them while the Mafia eliminates the Town at Night. Since this is a BYOR, all players will have a role, and be able to use their role powers to benefit them in some way.
Here's some boring rules!
Rules:
- We start on Day 1, which means everyone gets to play!
- Hammers are in effect. That means if a majority vote is reached, the Day ends. Please cease talking at that point until the Day is processed.
- Days start at ~72 hours and eventually shorten to 48 hours as the game progresses. Nights will always be 24 hours or until all Actions are received. Weekends will count for 24 hours.
- There will be no extensions or shortens, except in special circumstances (Hammers will always end the Day, so if you wish to shorten the Day, HAMMER!)
- If you require a replacement, please notify me as soon as possible. Things happen, do not worry about it!
- Vote in bold and red, for clarity. I will use a bot to read votes named Mamobo, and will posts vote counts at least once per Day, though you may ask for a vote count at any time.
Spoiler: Advanced rules (click to show/hide)
Also, for those without knowledge of how I style roles, here's a little cheat sheet!
Spoiler: Webadict on Roles (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Webadict on Action Order (click to show/hide)
Sign-ups:
New or inexperienced players will get priority! If the sign-ups are filled and you're a new or inexperienced player, I will remove an experienced player for you! It would be preferred to have at least 2 experienced players to help out, but if we get 9 new players, then we'll simply play like that!
- Egan_BW
- FallacyofUrist
- Knightwing64
- Lenglon
- Lidku
- Maximum Spin
- NJW2000
- Shakerag
- TricMagic
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 03, 2022, 01:00:12 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 03, 2022, 02:00:47 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 03, 2022, 02:13:04 pm
I still have no idea how to play scum, maybe it'll work out this time.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 03, 2022, 02:42:42 pm
Post by: Lidku on July 03, 2022, 04:22:16 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 03, 2022, 04:57:59 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 03, 2022, 05:04:31 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 03, 2022, 05:05:58 pm
In. I mean, I'm always scum, but maybe I'll be town this time?Please help me figure out what to do scum sensei.
Post by: Shakerag on July 03, 2022, 05:06:21 pm
mafiaaaaaaa in
I still have no idea how to play scum, maybe it'll work out this time.
You play scum same way as you play town. It's all about your actions being convincing.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 03, 2022, 05:07:25 pm
Post by: webadict on July 03, 2022, 05:09:05 pm
is it cheating to simply not read my role pmTechnically, it's a gray area. In some forums, the answer is, indeed, yes. I honestly wouldn't recommend doing that, though, because you may very well make a lot of mistakes by doing that!
Post by: Shakerag on July 03, 2022, 05:09:25 pm
is it cheating to simply not read my role pm
No, actually. I think it was Toaster (or maybe Leafsnail) who said they don't even look at their role PM until N1. They might have changed strategy, but since day actions are rare this isn't a terribly bad idea.
Post by: Shakerag on July 03, 2022, 05:09:58 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 03, 2022, 05:10:15 pm
Kick, punch, it's all in the mindIn. I mean, I'm always scum, but maybe I'll be town this time?Please help me figure out what to do scum sensei.
Wait, wrong tutorial.
1: Aggressively look for a town player that looks scummy. Targeting your partner works too, since it's unlikely anyone will go along with you.
2: Post aggressive point by point cases and tunnel.
3: Eventually back off and look for a new target.
4: Get read as 'incompetent town'.
Rinse and repeat.
is it cheating to simply not read my role pmTechnically speaking, yes, since there is always a possibility of a post restriction being present in someone's role, including yours. Never mind how small it is, the chance exists, and you could be violating your post restriction if you don't read your role.
Post by: Shakerag on July 03, 2022, 05:11:29 pm
Technically speaking, yes, since there is always a possibility of a post restriction being present in someone's role, including yours. Never mind how small it is, the chance exists, and you could be violating your post restriction if you don't read your role.
Post restriction roles are garbage; change my mind.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 03, 2022, 05:12:25 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 03, 2022, 05:12:57 pm
BYOR 14Technically speaking, yes, since there is always a possibility of a post restriction being present in someone's role, including yours. Never mind how small it is, the chance exists, and you could be violating your post restriction if you don't read your role.
Post restriction roles are garbage; change my mind.
Post by: Shakerag on July 03, 2022, 05:14:40 pm
BYOR 14Technically speaking, yes, since there is always a possibility of a post restriction being present in someone's role, including yours. Never mind how small it is, the chance exists, and you could be violating your post restriction if you don't read your role.
Post restriction roles are garbage; change my mind.
I'm old and my memory is gone, give me the tl;dr
Post by: Shakerag on July 03, 2022, 05:16:11 pm
I agree except for when they just make you say nya.
Oh, now I got to page wubba to change my role to "the role that makes everyone say -nya in their posts".
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 03, 2022, 05:17:11 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 03, 2022, 05:19:07 pm
Making my dreams come true, here.
Guess who I'm gonna TUNNEL TUNNEL CHUNNEL CHUNNEL on D1?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 03, 2022, 05:20:01 pm
Is your role literally just "FallacyofUrist"?Making my dreams come true, here.
Guess who I'm gonna TUNNEL TUNNEL CHUNNEL CHUNNEL on D1?
Post by: Lenglon on July 03, 2022, 05:23:11 pm
((in the collection of scraped html quicktopics collected by TolyK here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179149.msg8372720#msg8372720) the files are:
bccfdbe5865175e28932308ec7f22df8.html - my mafia team
cbe37b86a2c9539f758e09064c307589.html - the OTHER mafia team
ab12c01dcd5734e11612b1a0d81fa1fc.html - deadchat))
the BYOR with two different mafia teams, where I decided to create my own post restriction by just playing the character that I had submitted the same way I played the character in their home game - entirely nonverbal and with non-standard grammar. I enjoyed the restriction quite a lot, and it was FAR more restrictive than anything that people actually get in post restrictions. So I don't see them as any kind of real problem.
edit:
Spoiler: I summarized the restriction inside the quicktopic here (click to show/hide)
worlds more restrictive than I'd expect people to ever get assigned to them by someone else.
hell, I'm playing an RTD right now where I'm restricted (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179993.msg8385627#msg8385627) where my in-game communcation has to be 13-character segments, with a maximum of eight of them at a time.
Post by: Shakerag on July 03, 2022, 05:24:46 pm
Is your role literally just "FallacyofUrist"?Making my dreams come true, here.
Guess who I'm gonna TUNNEL TUNNEL CHUNNEL CHUNNEL on D1?
Obviously, that's a trade secret. But knowing my history, my role is something to give wubba the most trouble possible.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 03, 2022, 06:13:02 pm
Making my dreams come true, here.
Fallacy d1 vote obv scum
Post by: EuchreJack on July 03, 2022, 06:27:38 pm
So you're a goo cultistIs your role literally just "FallacyofUrist"?Making my dreams come true, here.
Guess who I'm gonna TUNNEL TUNNEL CHUNNEL CHUNNEL on D1?
Obviously, that's a trade secret. But knowing my history, my role is something to give wubba the most trouble possible.
Post by: Shakerag on July 03, 2022, 06:46:38 pm
So you're a goo cultistIs your role literally just "FallacyofUrist"?Making my dreams come true, here.
Guess who I'm gonna TUNNEL TUNNEL CHUNNEL CHUNNEL on D1?
Obviously, that's a trade secret. But knowing my history, my role is something to give wubba the most trouble possible.
I swear to satan, anyone uses goo from here on out I will find you and hurt you.
edit: at least in games i'm in
Post by: Jim Groovester on July 04, 2022, 02:04:54 am
Making my dreams come true, here.
Guess who I'm gonna TUNNEL TUNNEL CHUNNEL CHUNNEL on D1?
This is ancient vintage Jim meme good lord. I don't think I've thought about this for ten years.
Next people will complain about Jimbots and will start posting *sniiiiiiiiiiff*s whenever they first suspect something.
In. I mean, I'm always scum, but maybe I'll be town this time?Please help me figure out what to do scum sensei.
Not that anybody asked me, but....
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: EuchreJack on July 04, 2022, 03:56:23 am
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 04, 2022, 06:18:33 am
Unfortunately, Jim's towntell is that he's a chickenshit.
What are my tells?
Post by: EuchreJack on July 04, 2022, 09:53:32 pm
Unfortunately, Jim's towntell is that he's a chickenshit.
What are my tells?
When Max says you're town or scum.
Post by: NJW2000 on July 08, 2022, 04:35:13 am
Post by: webadict on July 08, 2022, 12:09:20 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on July 08, 2022, 12:29:59 pm
Time to get baking Web
Post by: TricMagic on July 08, 2022, 05:33:11 pm
Waits for Webadict to kick out the unwanted seasoning.
Post by: EuchreJack on July 08, 2022, 06:19:50 pm
Dumps EchreJack into the Pie, and says In.Oh no, I'm bowing Out, as per contract.
Waits for Webadict to kick out the unwanted seasoning.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 08, 2022, 07:21:41 pm
Dumps EchreJack into the Pie, and says In.
Waits for Webadict to kick out the unwanted seasoning.
My god, not Tric! After what happened with you and blue i don’t trust you much
Post by: webadict on July 08, 2022, 07:45:42 pm
Hush, you.Dumps EchreJack into the Pie, and says In.
Waits for Webadict to kick out the unwanted seasoning.
My god, not Tric! After what happened with you and blue i don’t trust you much
This game is literally designed to learn, and TricMagic can try to fix the mistakes he made last time. Anyone can make a silly mistake, but practice is what teaches us new things!
Post by: Egan_BW on July 08, 2022, 07:53:19 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 08, 2022, 08:49:32 pm
This game is literally designed to learn
Wait. So I -shouldn't- be toxic as all shit? Aww man. I hate having to hold back.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 08, 2022, 08:58:30 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 08, 2022, 09:05:15 pm
Don't be toxic or I feed.
Ok, first and last warning, don't threaten me with a good time.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 08, 2022, 09:14:11 pm
Don't be toxic or I feed.
Ok, first and last warning, don't threaten me with a good time.
Suspect.
I think they’re flirting… :o
Post by: Lenglon on July 08, 2022, 09:14:16 pm
Lenglon rolls her eyes and types a text message to ShakesDon't be toxic or I feed.
Ok, first and last warning, don't threaten me with a good time.
Quote from: Me
No Toxic else sliver quotes
Post by: Shakerag on July 08, 2022, 09:18:36 pm
Quote from: MeNo Toxic else sliver quotes
who tf is silver?
Post by: Lenglon on July 08, 2022, 09:20:09 pm
I tilt my head to the side and look at Shakes in bemusementQuote from: MeNo Toxic else sliver quotes
who tf is silver?
Quote from: Me to Shakerag
Quote slivers no problem now?
Post by: Shakerag on July 08, 2022, 09:21:20 pm
I tilt my head to the side and look at Shakes in bemusementQuote from: MeNo Toxic else sliver quotes
who tf is silver?Quote from: Me to ShakeragQuote slivers no problem now?
I put on my robe and wizard hat.
Post by: Lenglon on July 08, 2022, 09:22:55 pm
I put on my robe and wizard hat.
Quote from: Me to Shakerag
neat
Post by: Shakerag on July 08, 2022, 09:25:01 pm
I put on my robe and wizard hat.Quote from: Me to Shakeragneat
I meditate to regain my mana, before casting Lvl. 8 Mafia of the Infinite.
Post by: Lenglon on July 08, 2022, 09:34:42 pm
In reply, I summon Aleph-Zero (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTaWKbD3UK8)I put on my robe and wizard hat.Quote from: Me to Shakeragneat
I meditate to regain my mana, before casting Lvl. 8 Mafia of the Infinite.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 08, 2022, 09:34:52 pm
Ninja: my awakened hamster friend also counterspells.
Post by: Shakerag on July 08, 2022, 09:50:19 pm
In reply, I summon Aleph-Zero (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTaWKbD3UK8)I put on my robe and wizard hat.Quote from: Me to Shakeragneat
I meditate to regain my mana, before casting Lvl. 8 Mafia of the Infinite.
I don't have an internet connection so I can't see that. I steal yo soul and cast Lightning Lvl. 1,000,000 Your body explodes into a fine bloody mist, because you are only a Lvl. 2 Druid.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 08, 2022, 09:54:55 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 08, 2022, 09:56:03 pm
No, you get counterspelled.
This isn't about you.
Post by: Lenglon on July 08, 2022, 10:06:53 pm
Not wanting to squander the second chance Egan's counterspell gave her, Lenglon retreats into the shadows, borrowing from the mantle of the Scumteam to disguise herself amoungst all the others, leaving Shakerag without a valid target for his wrath, and applying combat sedatives to her knife, to prepare for when she is granted an opportunity to reply with an attack of her own.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 08, 2022, 10:10:40 pm
I hate fun.
Post by: Shakerag on July 08, 2022, 10:12:18 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 08, 2022, 10:12:54 pm
Far be it from me to tell you guys to stop having fun, but fun is a filthy parasite and you should stop having it immediately.
I hate fun.
No worries then, I'm having exactly zero fun.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 08, 2022, 10:19:01 pm
Far be it from me to tell you guys to stop having fun, but fun is a filthy parasite and you should stop having it immediately.
I hate fun.
That explains how seriously people treat mafia games.
rimshot bazinga
Post by: Lenglon on July 08, 2022, 10:20:15 pm
Shakerag has used several infinite or near-infinite spells now, and her own attempt to cast something similar was dismissed and negated without any effect. This can only be true if the system itself is broken. And in such a case, there is an obvious, direct solution. One that would force Shakerag to come down to her own mortal level, and lose his god-mod powers forever.
Lenglon casts Summon Rules Lawyer
Post by: Egan_BW on July 08, 2022, 10:32:35 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 09, 2022, 12:15:39 am
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 09, 2022, 07:19:53 am
Post by: webadict on July 09, 2022, 09:39:39 am
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 09, 2022, 12:07:59 pm
... I'm... Okay. I'm gonna try to finish these sooner so you guys can get playing instead of whatever this is.
Egan started it, blame them
Post by: Shakerag on July 09, 2022, 06:17:09 pm
recognizing just how dangerous it is to bring a knife to a gunfight, Lenglon looks on in horror... and then comes to a realization
Shakerag has used several infinite or near-infinite spells now, and her own attempt to cast something similar was dismissed and negated without any effect. This can only be true if the system itself is broken. And in such a case, there is an obvious, direct solution. One that would force Shakerag to come down to her own mortal level, and lose his god-mod powers forever.
Lenglon casts Summon Rules Lawyer
Unfortunately the Rules Lawyers are the SCOTUS and because guns were involved they rule against you, 6-3.
Post by: Lenglon on July 09, 2022, 06:19:06 pm
Unfortunately the Rules Lawyers are the SCOTUS and because guns were involved they rule against you, 6-3.You're literally taking their guns away to make your gun singularity.
X - to doubt
Post by: Shakerag on July 09, 2022, 06:27:15 pm
Unfortunately the Rules Lawyers are the SCOTUS and because guns were involved they rule against you, 6-3.You're literally taking their guns away to make your gun singularity.
X - to doubt
Oh, shit, it's a paradox. Reality tears itself apart.
Post by: Shakerag on July 09, 2022, 06:58:17 pm
Activity is key. If you're not active, then at best you're a detriment to town, and at worst you're lurking scum. I will support policy lynches on lurkers.
EDIT: If you're town, activity helps find scum. If you're scum, activity helps you look town-ish. If you're third-party, that also helps you look like town and find scum.
Post by: webadict on July 09, 2022, 10:36:18 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 10:18:59 am
I lied when I said I'd be done in a few hours.
Honey, given your track record, I'll be happy if we start by Friday.
Post by: EuchreJack on July 10, 2022, 11:50:39 am
Bazinga!I lied when I said I'd be done in a few hours.
Honey, given your track record, I'll be happy if we start by Friday.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 10, 2022, 12:05:34 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 10, 2022, 12:24:41 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on July 10, 2022, 12:28:59 pm
NAI
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 08:20:02 pm
Shakerag advocates for the Lynch of Egan_BW!
NAI
[CENSORED]
Post by: webadict on July 10, 2022, 09:55:42 pm
You arrive at headquarters at 0500 and find yourself among eight others, all wearing their feather pins identifying them as Silkies. You’ve only seen this many in one room during Initiation. You know something’s up.
As you ponder the many reasons something like this could happen, Mother Hen enters the room, and everyone stands at attention.
“Agents, you may be wondering what assignment has been given to you. It seems that two of you have joined forces with the enemy. We found the body of Silkie 10 (Codename webadict) in an abandoned warehouse in the Wing District.”
The agents begin to look uneasily among themselves.
“Our intelligence has led us to you nine. If you find the pair among you, you’ll have gained a new feather. Otherwise, we’ll have determined that your entire batch is rotten, and have all of you removed.”
“You have two hours to give me one among you for extreme interrogation. Good luck, Fledglings.”
Vote Count
------------------------
Egan_BW - 0 -
FallacyofUrist - 0 -
Knightwing64 - 0 -
Lenglon - 0 -
Lidku - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
NJW2000 - 0 -
Shakerag - 0 -
TricMagic - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 9 - Egan_BW, FallacyofUrist, Knightwing64, Lenglon, Lidku, Maximum Spin, NJW2000, Shakerag, TricMagic,
5 to Hammer. Day ends on July 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (~69 hours remaining).
It is now Day 1.
NOTE: Two of you are Mafia. Seven of you are Town.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 10, 2022, 10:00:17 pm
Wait, wrong game.
... the vote stays.
Okay, I have a strategy to propose.
We can logically assume that EuchreJack is either Town or Mafia. A loyal agent or treacherous traitor. Well... since he's so easy to read, let's just badger him until we can make a solid judgement, then either build our core around him or execute him?
EuchreJack: What's your alignment? What's your scum-hunting strategy this game?
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 10:05:01 pm
Shakerag, you vicious, unrepentant criminal. How could you steal the birthday cake like that??!Depends on the flavor of the cake.
Knightwing64: You look new so how do I know you're not mafia?
Maximum Spin: Are you the kind of person to stick on one player or switch your votes multiple times in one day?
NJW2000: Hypothetically if you were scum would to actively try to bus your scummate to look town or play it calmly?
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 10:09:46 pm
FallacyofUrist: How do you decide who to vote for on D1?
Lidku Do you think a policy vote on lurkers is valid? Why or why not?
TricMagic: Same questions as to Lidku.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 10, 2022, 10:11:08 pm
FallacyofUrist: How do you decide who to vote for on D1?Randomly, followed by aggressively and inaccurately.
Shakerag: How do you decide who to vote for on Day 2?
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 10:13:39 pm
FallacyofUrist: How do you decide who to vote for on D1?Randomly, followed by aggressively and inaccurately.
That seems chaotic. Are you certain that strategy is in the best interests of town?
Quote
Shakerag: How do you decide who to vote for on Day 2?
That would depend on the conversations of D1 and how people voted on D1. Would you do differently?
Post by: Lenglon on July 10, 2022, 10:16:03 pm
FallacyofUrist - Is EuchreJack a player in this game?
Knightwing64 - Is TricMagic scum?
Lidku - Please explain Miller Theory regarding D1 claims.
Maximum Spin - If you had a 1-shot dayInspect which would make wub post the result in-thread publicaly, when would you use it, and on who?
NJW2000 - Why should or shouldn't I vote Shakerag after the incredible, absolutely amazing, case that FoU just made?
Shakerag - Please explain Miller Theory regarding D1 claims.
TricMagic - Why am I voting you?
Lenglon: Are you ok using discord?I've used Discord for years, and am currently a member of roughly 20 different discord servers.
Post by: Lidku on July 10, 2022, 10:16:58 pm
Lidku Do you think a policy vote on lurkers is valid? Why or why not?
It depends. If they're offline often and not active, then they're probably doing IRL things and cannot commit to the game as they should. Pinpointing on lurkers who generally cannot participate much isn't optimal in my opinion, until at least all other options are expended.
I say this because of what happened in the last BYOR I was in. I and TricMagic mistakenly honed-in on against BluarianKnight, when the actual mafia was Jim Groovester all along.
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 10:17:25 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 10, 2022, 10:20:03 pm
Lenglon: What is your opinion on the strategy of not looking at your role PM until N1?I think it's a silly thing to do. I think if you do that you won't know if you have a post restriction, won't know if you have day abilities that need to be used D1, and I think the only reason to do it is if you have little self-confidence about your scumgame. I don't think it's alignment indicative though, just personality indicative.
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 10:20:33 pm
Lidku Do you think a policy vote on lurkers is valid? Why or why not?
It depends. If they're offline often and not active, then they're probably doing IRL things and cannot commit to the game as they should. Pinpointing on lurkers who generally cannot participate much isn't optimal in my opinion, until at least all other options are expended.
I say this because of what happened in the last BYOR I was in. I and TricMagic mistakenly honed-in on against BluarianKnight, when the actual mafia was Jim Groovester all along.
I confess I did not read that game. But would you say that BluarianKnight being not active was ultimately a detriment to town then?
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 10, 2022, 10:21:27 pm
Maximum Spin: Are you the kind of person to stick on one player or switch your votes multiple times in one day?No.
I liked that question when I first read it, which is why I decided to answer it, but then I didn't like it anymore.
Maximum Spin - If you had a 1-shot dayInspect which would make wub post the result in-thread publicaly, when would you use it, and on who?I don't like this question either. Assuming it can self-target, immediately, on myself.
I think if you do that you won't know if you have a post restrictionImagine accepting post restrictions.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 10, 2022, 10:21:35 pm
Egan_BW If you were a survivor would you say that or not?
mother-heckker, this is beginner mafia and I'm inexperienced, you tell me what to do in that situation, senpai
But there are no survivors in this setup so if I were one I'd be sending irate PMs to wuba right now.
FallacyofUrist: Why are you cursed to always be scum in webadict games? For that matter, why am I?
Knightwing: You'd probably seen me go inactive when I'm mafia, would you consequently trust me if I proved to be decently active?
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 10:22:12 pm
Lenglon: What is your opinion on the strategy of not looking at your role PM until N1?I think it's a silly thing to do. I think if you do that you won't know if you have a post restriction, won't know if you have day abilities that need to be used D1, and I think the only reason to do it is if you have little self-confidence about your scumgame. I don't think it's alignment indicative though, just personality indicative.
That's a valid assessment. How then do you feel about policy lynches on lurkers?
Post by: Lidku on July 10, 2022, 10:22:44 pm
Shakerag - Please explain Miller Theory regarding D1 claims.
Uh... I have no idea what that is.
My thoughts on everyone right now generally: Game has just started, so there is nothing to go off of in terms of suspicion. Some people have posted, but not enough.. but reasonable to understand, considering how late it is currently (Eastern US time, for me, specifically)
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 10:23:35 pm
Egan_BW If you were a survivor would you say that or not?
mother-heckker, this is beginner mafia and I'm inexperienced, you tell me what to do in that situation, senpai
But there are no survivors in this setup so if I were one I'd be sending irate PMs to wuba right now.
How are you so certiain there wouldn't be a survivor in this game then?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 10, 2022, 10:24:06 pm
FallacyofUrist - Is EuchreJack a player in this game?
Raises wing, beak open, then... lowers it slowly.
... Right, forgot Tric took his spot. My bad.
New plan.
We can logically assume that TricMagic is either Town or Mafia. A loyal agent or treacherous traitor. Well... since he's so easy to read, let's just badger him until we can make a solid judgement, then either build our core around him or execute him?
TricMagic: What's your alignment? What's your scum-hunting strategy this game?
[1] That seems chaotic. Are you certain that strategy is in the best interests of town?
[2] That would depend on the conversations of D1 and how people voted on D1. Would you do differently?
[1]: Oh, no, it probably isn't. That's for sure. But thanks to my curse of always being scum or third party whenever I try to play mafia, I haven't really learned a better methodology yet. I'll be trying to improve on my techniques this game, since it's a Beginner's game, heh.
[2]: Do the results of Night 1 not factor into your methodology? Surely you wouldn't ignore a guilty cop-check.
FallacyofUrist: Why are you cursed to always be scum in webadict games? For that matter, why am I?Dearest scumbuddy, don't call me out like that! We're supposed to be undercover -
Which is to say that I am not always scum, because I am definitely totally a loyal Town scum hunter this time around.
And I bet you are too.
My thoughts on everyone right now generally: Game has just started, so there is nothing to go off of in terms of suspicion. Some people have posted, but not enough.. but reasonable to understand, considering how late it is currently (Eastern US time, for me, specifically)A bit early, but I appreciate the enthusiasm!
Shame you're definitely scum.
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 10:25:34 pm
Shakerag - Please explain Miller Theory regarding D1 claims.
Oh I just realized I missed that. I stick by the old (relative to this subforum) rules that you always claim miller ASAP. To do otherwise is to invite doubt.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 10, 2022, 10:29:15 pm
How are you so certiain there wouldn't be a survivor in this game then?Note that it says in the OP that there are 7 Town and 2 Mafia. Just like the last Beginner's BYOR.
What's the point of this question?
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 10:30:44 pm
[1]: Oh, no, it probably isn't. That's for sure. But thanks to my curse of always being scum or third party whenever I try to play mafia, I haven't really learned a better methodology yet. I'll be trying to improve on my techniques this game, since it's a Beginner's game, heh.
[2]: Do the results of Night 1 not factor into your methodology? Surely you wouldn't ignore a guilty cop-check.
1: Noted.
2: To be fair, I did forget about night results. In so far as cop claims are concerned, I did play in one paranormal game in which I sat on a scum inspect for one night and got a scum inspect on the second night. It was risky, but it paid off in spades. I don't think I would try and gamble on that again, to be fair.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 10, 2022, 10:31:35 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 10, 2022, 10:31:52 pm
Ah in that case I'm like, omega miller. Inspects show me as mafia, surveys show my action as mafiakill, and tracking shows me as visiting whoever was killed. It's funny actually, I love it.Shakerag - Please explain Miller Theory regarding D1 claims.
Oh I just realized I missed that. I stick by the old (relative to this subforum) rules that you always claim miller ASAP. To do otherwise is to invite doubt.
How are you so certiain there wouldn't be a survivor in this game then?Survivor is a neutral alignment, only town and mafia alignments exist. Read the OP before playing pls~
Egan_BW - What do you think is the fastest way to end RVS?Probably for mafia to out themselves, but that's not easy to count on. I'm just going with controlled chaos for now.
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 10:32:27 pm
How are you so certiain there wouldn't be a survivor in this game then?Note that it says in the OP that there are 7 Town and 2 Mafia. Just like the last Beginner's BYOR.
What's the point of this question?
I may be very drunk. I suppose that's not relevant then, yeah?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 10, 2022, 10:34:02 pm
1: Noted.[1]: It is notable. Since I have basically no town experience, I am effectively a beginner despite having years of games. A frustrating situation, that. Of course, I could be scum and fucking with you, but you know that already.
2: To be fair, I did forget about night results. In so far as cop claims are concerned, I did play in one paranormal game in which I sat on a scum inspect for one night and got a scum inspect on the second night. It was risky, but it paid off in spades. I don't think I would try and gamble on that again, to be fair.
[2]: What is worth gambling on, in your opinion?
I may be very drunk. I suppose that's not relevant then, yeah?Maybe it is.
In that case - what does drunk!Shakerag think sober!Shakerag will think about the situation?
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 10:35:40 pm
Webadict Can you confirm there is 7 town and 2 Mafia? Or can you just confirm there is 2 mafia?
Post by: Lenglon on July 10, 2022, 10:35:50 pm
What in YOUR opinion, is the correct answer to those questions?
Egan - Why are you claiming to be scum?
Post by: webadict on July 10, 2022, 10:38:28 pm
WaitThere are 7 Town and 2 Mafia. There are no Third Parties.
Webadict Can you confirm there is 7 town and 2 Mafia? Or can you just confirm there is 2 mafia?
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 10:38:43 pm
[2]: What is worth gambling on, in your opinion?
To be perfectly honest, it's been years since I played a game so fuck if I know anymore. I haven't the foggiest fucking clue what the "meta" is right now.
In that case - what does drunk!Shakerag think sober!Shakerag will think about the situation?Literally an impossible question. But as a counter, what information did you think that would give you?
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 10:39:20 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 10, 2022, 10:40:29 pm
[1] To be perfectly honest, it's been years since I played a game so fuck if I know anymore. I haven't the foggiest fucking clue what the "meta" is right now.[1] The good news is that this is a Beginner's BYOR, so the shenanigans level should be stuck somewhere between 2 and 4 out of 10.
[2] Literally an impossible question. But as a counter, what information did you think that would give you?
[2] Your perception of yourself. What kind of a player are you? That's a question too.
Post by: Lenglon on July 10, 2022, 10:41:10 pm
That's a valid assessment. How then do you feel about policy lynches on lurkers?Bear in mind that when I last played there was a plague of Extends, and many games died of inactivity. I personally am a huge fan of policy lynches on D1 specifically, but I think their use drops rapidly as the town gains information. Lurkers specifically are in my opinion major candidates for Policy-lynches, with all the same caveats that any other policy-lynch has (only do it when you don't have a solid scumread on someone, don't do it at MYLO/LYLO, overall use drops as game goes on, etc.)
Post by: Egan_BW on July 10, 2022, 10:41:43 pm
Egan - Why are you claiming to be scum?
Post by: Lidku on July 10, 2022, 10:42:01 pm
My thoughts on everyone right now generally: Game has just started, so there is nothing to go off of in terms of suspicion. Some people have posted, but not enough.. but reasonable to understand, considering how late it is currently (Eastern US time, for me, specifically)A bit early, but I appreciate the enthusiasm!
Shame you're definitely scum.
Happy that you enjoy the enthusiasm, considering admittedly how much of a noob I am at these games. Dunno about the scum-shame thing tho...
Lidku - Miller Theory asks the question of what someone should do if they are town, but have an ability that makes them show up as scum to inspects. There is first) what should someone do if they are themselves a Miller, and second) what should a town player do when someone ELSE claims miller.
What in YOUR opinion, is the correct answer to those questions?
Okay?
Well I guess that person (the Miller in this instance) should alert the Town of that fact.
The rationale being: no confusion of trying to salvage an explanation later on, if an Inspect IS used on them. Better to lay out the truth and have the Town decide your fate. If the Town finds what you say too loose to believe, you at least can act as a guaranteed D1 sacrificial lynch to have the game proceed to D2, even though you weren't scum at all.
Anyways.. I guess once everyone begins finally posting, we can think of the next step (or you'll all decide by them time I'm sleep already).. I'm going to go to sleep for now.
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 10:51:27 pm
FallacyofUrist:
[2] Your perception of yourself. What kind of a player are you? That's a question too.Well, I -think- I'm a decent player. My W/L ratio is in the positives. You also avoided my counter-question
Egan_BW: I don't believe you. I think you're pulling a miller gambit out of your ass. Call it a gut feeling. And if I get murdered in the night then everyone else can think my gut feeling was on point.
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 10:52:45 pm
That's a valid assessment. How then do you feel about policy lynches on lurkers?Bear in mind that when I last played there was a plague of Extends, and many games died of inactivity. I personally am a huge fan of policy lynches on D1 specifically, but I think their use drops rapidly as the town gains information. Lurkers specifically are in my opinion major candidates for Policy-lynches, with all the same caveats that any other policy-lynch has (only do it when you don't have a solid scumread on someone, don't do it at MYLO/LYLO, overall use drops as game goes on, etc.)
As a very side point, this is why I don't run games with extends. Put up or shut up. Extends just kill activity IMO.
Post by: Lenglon on July 10, 2022, 10:54:12 pm
Max - Why?Maximum Spin - If you had a 1-shot dayInspect which would make wub post the result in-thread publicaly, when would you use it, and on who?I don't like this question either. Assuming it can self-target, immediately, on myself.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 10, 2022, 10:55:25 pm
Max - Why?Which part?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 10, 2022, 10:57:07 pm
[1] First of all, I should say that during the weekdays I'll be at work so I can't guarantee timely responses during "normal business hours".
FallacyofUrist:[2] Your perception of yourself. What kind of a player are you? That's a question too.[2] Well, I -think- I'm a decent player. My W/L ratio is in the positives. You also avoided my counter-question
[1] Same here actually. Though I may be able to post from phone during lunchtime.
[2] My answer was 'your perception of yourself'. I'll go into more detail, though.
It's a way of asking 'what do you think you will think about the situation'. The only way to answer that is to go a layer beyond just what you're thinking. To get you to think about how you think, and give me an answer on that.
... It's admittedly a tricky question.
Break it down for me. You alignment inspect as mafia and you're always tracked / watched as going to the mafiakill's target?Because I am.I'm joking around since I've rolled mafia for most of my games thus far. My Miller claim is really real, though.
Post by: Lenglon on July 10, 2022, 10:57:36 pm
I don't care why you dislike my question of you.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 10, 2022, 10:59:04 pm
Egan_BW: I don't believe you. I think you're pulling a miller gambit out of your ass. Call it a gut feeling. And if I get murdered in the night then everyone else can think my gut feeling was on point.
A gut feeling, eh? Pushing me seems like a pretty safe play if you were mafia, to be honest.
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 11:00:17 pm
[2] My answer was 'your perception of yourself'. I'll go into more detail, though.
It's a way of asking 'what do you think you will think about the situation'. The only way to answer that is to go a layer beyond just what you're thinking. To get you to think about how you think, and give me an answer on that.
... It's admittedly a tricky question.
Sorry, I still don't understand what you're asking. If your asking about my methodology I'm not certain I can so succinctly summarize it?
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 11:02:21 pm
Egan_BW: I don't believe you. I think you're pulling a miller gambit out of your ass. Call it a gut feeling. And if I get murdered in the night then everyone else can think my gut feeling was on point.
A gut feeling, eh? Pushing me seems like a pretty safe play if you were mafia, to be honest.
And that response is a pretty safe response if -you- were mafia, to be honest. Safe, but not optimal. My vote stays. Town would be less defensive.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 10, 2022, 11:03:54 pm
Sorry, I still don't understand what you're asking. If your asking about my methodology I'm not certain I can so succinctly summarize it?I'm fine reading an essay about it if you need to go that far.
And that response is a pretty safe response if -you- were mafia, to be honest. Safe, but not optimal. My vote stays. Town would be less defensive.What makes it safe?
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 10, 2022, 11:05:20 pm
Why on yourself instead of on someone else, why immediately, and so on.I've seen the power of conftown. I've even BEEN the power of conftown before. I like being conftown. I guess I could let someone else have the fun, but I've got a pretty high self-opinion with respect to my own value. And when it comes to public information like that, the sooner the better.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 10, 2022, 11:05:32 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 10, 2022, 11:06:28 pm
I'm definitely not bold enough to go straight for a claim like that....I don't currently think you're scum but I don't actually believe this.
Post by: Lenglon on July 10, 2022, 11:07:32 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 10, 2022, 11:07:42 pm
Town is precisely this defensive, dummy. Besides, you haven't seen my previous games as scum but I'm definitely not bold enough to go straight for a claim like that.But what's the ideal state of town? Defensive, or offensive?
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 11:07:50 pm
I'd really rather you narrow down the question, rather than me having to write an essay.Sorry, I still don't understand what you're asking. If your asking about my methodology I'm not certain I can so succinctly summarize it?I'm fine reading an essay about it if you need to go that far.
The deflection. You're trying to turn my gut feeling back on me. Which would be more valid if I wasn't the sole vote on you. I think you jumped the gun.And that response is a pretty safe response if -you- were mafia, to be honest. Safe, but not optimal. My vote stays. Town would be less defensive.What makes it safe?
Post by: Egan_BW on July 10, 2022, 11:10:45 pm
Egan - I don't know about your mafia play, but you do seem quite bold when I play with you in the RTD section though. Why would you not be bold here when you are bold there?I'm not very comfortable lying, it's a different thing to roleplay as an axe-wielding lunatic and actually manage all of this social nonsense.
Post by: Lenglon on July 10, 2022, 11:11:11 pm
Interesting. If you had a 1-shot, must-use-right-now, day ability that forced the target to announce their own alignment within their next post, who would you use it on, and why?Why on yourself instead of on someone else, why immediately, and so on.I've seen the power of conftown. I've even BEEN the power of conftown before. I like being conftown. I guess I could let someone else have the fun, but I've got a pretty high self-opinion with respect to my own value. And when it comes to public information like that, the sooner the better.
alternately: if you were picking for someone else, instead of yourself, is there any player here that you think should not use the one-shot-public-day-inspect on themselves if they're the one with the ability?
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 11:11:56 pm
My point still stands, though. Town doesn't get defensive from one vote. Scum might. I still don't like Egan_BW's reaction.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 10, 2022, 11:13:29 pm
I'd really rather you narrow down the question, rather than me having to write an essay.That's fair. Let's separate it out, then.
As town, how do you determine who is town?
As town, how do you determine who is scum?
As scum, how do you determine the greatest threat to your team?
As either alignment, how do you determine who can be made less of a priority?
Welcome to the Mafia boards. Two of us are out to get you. I promise I'm not, though, unless you're actually scum, which you're not.Egan - I don't know about your mafia play, but you do seem quite bold when I play with you in the RTD section though. Why would you not be bold here when you are bold there?I'm not very comfortable lying, it's a different thing to roleplay as an axe-wielding lunatic and actually manage all of this social nonsense.
The deflection. You're trying to turn my gut feeling back on me. Which would be more valid if I wasn't the sole vote on you. I think you jumped the gun.Isn't it too obvious to be safe?
Post by: Egan_BW on July 10, 2022, 11:17:09 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 10, 2022, 11:18:37 pm
Well, what I was really going for was to find someone to attack. I recall hearing that picking at whoever votes for you is an acceptable beginner strategy, so I went for that. Shakerag doesn't seem scummy to me at this point, but it doesn't really matter so much as that I got them to say some stuff and hopefully that helps people with more developed instincts than me.Pretty sure you're acting deliberately scummy as a gambit to see who takes you as an easy target.
Like you know, Shakerag.
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 11:20:55 pm
I'd really rather you narrow down the question, rather than me having to write an essay.That's fair. Let's separate it out, then.
As town, how do you determine who is town?
Generally activity, but night actions help.
As town, how do you determine who is scum?
Voting patterns, contradictions, and honestly gut feelings. This is a game about trying to lie and not be caught, which is not the easiest thing to determine after all.
As scum, how do you determine the greatest threat to your team?Activity. Active scum-hunters are always a huge threat. Killing the most active players, while kind of a dick move, is still optimal for scum.
As either alignment, how do you determine who can be made less of a priority?That depends on the team. See the above responses.
No. Egan_BW could easily be scum and making mistakes. And you could be chainsawing for him.The deflection. You're trying to turn my gut feeling back on me. Which would be more valid if I wasn't the sole vote on you. I think you jumped the gun.Isn't it too obvious to be safe?
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 11:21:44 pm
Well, what I was really going for was to find someone to attack. I recall hearing that picking at whoever votes for you is an acceptable beginner strategy, so I went for that. Shakerag doesn't seem scummy to me at this point, but it doesn't really matter so much as that I got them to say some stuff and hopefully that helps people with more developed instincts than me.
To be fair, prompting conversation on D1 is priority. The worst thing you can do on D1 is do nothing.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 10, 2022, 11:22:24 pm
alternately: if you were picking for someone else, instead of yourself, is there any player here that you think should not use the one-shot-public-day-inspect on themselves if they're the one with the ability?"should" from my perspective or the player's? From the player's perspective, whoever's scum shouldn't. :P
Knightwing shouldn't. Egan, maybe. TricMagic shouldn't, but would anyway. These are all players who could credibly claim to be town while using it on someone who would be able to support the inspecting player's claim.
Interesting. If you had a 1-shot, must-use-right-now, day ability that forced the target to announce their own alignment within their next post, who would you use it on, and why?Probably TricMagic. He likes to have to tell the truth. More seriously - though that really would be my first impulse - it would probably have to be between Shakerag and Egan. Not specifically because of their spat right now, though, but that does make it even more potentially useful!
Not Fallacy, though.
STOP POSTING WHILE I'M TRYING TO POST
Post by: Egan_BW on July 10, 2022, 11:23:15 pm
No. Egan_BW could easily be scum and making mistakes. And you could be chainsawing for him.
Assuming that I'm making mistakes, which I clearly am, does this indicate my alignment?
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 10, 2022, 11:23:31 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 10, 2022, 11:24:42 pm
I refuse.
STOP POSTING WHILE I'M TRYING TO POST
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 11:25:42 pm
]I don't like this question either. Assuming it can self-target, immediately, on myself.
To be fair, that's a stupid decision. If you openly confirm yourself as town you just painted a huge target on your ass to get NK'd. And if you didn't die during the night then town needs to worry about if there is a doctor or if you're a godfather.
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 11:27:40 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 10, 2022, 11:29:09 pm
By the way: there's probably one scum among Fallacy, Shakerag, Egan.I agree. It's Shakerag. 80%.
To be fair, that's a stupid decision. If you openly confirm yourself as town you just painted a huge target on your ass to get NK'd. And if you didn't die during the night then town needs to worry about if there is a doctor or if you're a godfather.Is there any reason the scum wouldn't immediately nightkill a confirmed town player? Assume there's no cult and they're not about to self-destruct.
Lol sorry. It's the opening hours of Day 1, of course we're active as heckaroni.I refuse.
STOP POSTING WHILE I'M TRYING TO POST
To be fair, prompting conversation on D1 is priority. The worst thing you can do on D1 is do nothing.Absolutely true. But this is true for all alignments.
Sorry Fallacy, thought you were Egan. That's what I get for posting shitfaced.It's an understandable mistake. I thought TricMagic was EuchreJack.
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 11:32:34 pm
Is there any reason the scum wouldn't immediately nightkill a confirmed town player? Assume there's no cult and they're not about to self-destruct.
That's just WIFOM. Most of the time I would think it would be in scum's best interest to kill a confirmed town, unless they want to pull some kind of gambit (say if that player wasn't otherwise trusted).
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 11:34:29 pm
Is there any reason the scum wouldn't immediately nightkill a confirmed town player? Assume there's no cult and they're not about to self-destruct.
That's just WIFOM. Most of the time I would think it would be in scum's best interest to kill a confirmed town, unless they want to pull some kind of gambit (say if that player wasn't otherwise trusted).
To add on to that, I'd be suspicious if one or two people suddenly ganged up on said "confirmed town" in such a scenario.
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 11:36:26 pm
Is there any reason the scum wouldn't immediately nightkill a confirmed town player? Assume there's no cult and they're not about to self-destruct.
That's just WIFOM. Most of the time I would think it would be in scum's best interest to kill a confirmed town, unless they want to pull some kind of gambit (say if that player wasn't otherwise trusted).
To add on to that, I'd be suspicious if one or two people suddenly ganged up on said "confirmed town" in such a scenario.
Adding on to -that-, it would ultimately depend on how many players are left and what roleclaims they have as well. There really aren't hard and fast rules in mafia; there is so so so much that is situational.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 10, 2022, 11:41:20 pm
Adding on to -that-, it would ultimately depend on how many players are left and what roleclaims they have as well. There really aren't hard and fast rules in mafia; there is so so so much that is situational.If you ask me, the mafia, even if they manage to play aggressively, are all about looking for opportunities - times to strike and players to pounce on. Attacking vulnerabilities. Ambush predators. Town players try to focus more on narrowing things down.
Post by: Shakerag on July 10, 2022, 11:46:43 pm
Adding on to -that-, it would ultimately depend on how many players are left and what roleclaims they have as well. There really aren't hard and fast rules in mafia; there is so so so much that is situational.If you ask me, the mafia, even if they manage to play aggressively, are all about looking for opportunities - times to strike and players to pounce on. Attacking vulnerabilities. Ambush predators. Town players try to focus more on narrowing things down.
Honestly, not a bad assessment. But then the best scum players will make sure that they do not appear to be looking for opportunities as well. And novice town thinking that they are scumhunting could be pegged as town. It can be hard to discern which is which.
Post by: Lenglon on July 10, 2022, 11:50:19 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 10, 2022, 11:51:34 pm
Honestly, not a bad assessment. But then the best scum players will make sure that they do not appear to be looking for opportunities as well. And novice town thinking that they are scumhunting could be pegged as town. It can be hard to discern which is which.At the very least new players are typically easier to read. Hence my 'examine Jack/Tric' strategy.
Of course the scum want to appear town. That's their job, their goal. Newer scum players will act uncertain, or chaotic. Moderately experienced scum players will be opportunistic. The best... The most experienced scum players will be inscrutable. More or less.
Post by: Lenglon on July 11, 2022, 12:04:44 am
Post by: Lenglon on July 11, 2022, 12:38:57 am
By the way: there's probably one scum among Fallacy, Shakerag, Egan.Max - I really dislike this post. It looks to me like setup to attempt to say X was town, so Y should be scum, later on down the line. And in the short term you're basically just egging them on to infight, without getting yourself bogged down by taking an actual position on who is scum. I really just do not see how, be you right or wrong, you are helping anyone but the mafia here. I'm only using FoS because Tric (who my vote is currently on) has yet to post since game start, the moment that Tric shows up, you can expect to see your name in red over this post if something doesn't change. Justify yourself please.
Post by: NJW2000 on July 11, 2022, 04:36:47 am
NJW2000: Hypothetically if you were scum would to actively try to bus your scummate to look town or play it calmly?Depends on the situation. At the start of the game, I'd have a strong preference for keeping my teammate alive.
NJW2000 - Why should or shouldn't I vote Shakerag after the incredible, absolutely amazing, case that FoU just made?It's a weak case, so I think more people should vote Shakerag, to make the case stronger.
Shakerag: what's going on with the discord question here? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8388939#msg8388939)
Oh great, a miller claim. I really hope Web hasn't put a miller in a Beginner game.
Egan: do you have any way we can confirm you as doing something other than mafiakilling and being mafia and stuff?
Don't necessarily say what it is, withholding information about your power is a good idea D1. A yes/no/maybe answer might be enough.
Well, what I was really going for was to find someone to attack. I recall hearing that picking at whoever votes for you is an acceptable beginner strategy, so I went for that. Shakerag doesn't seem scummy to me at this point, but it doesn't really matter so much as that I got them to say some stuff and hopefully that helps people with more developed instincts than me.This is bad. You've heard it's ok for newbie players to do something that's bad, so you did it? And you're waiting for stronger players to figure out the game?
That's a very convenient position for mafia to take. Instead, try to play well, and actually play the game. You may not have played much mafia, but you're smart, so scumhunt.
MaximumSpin - I've never been able to read him and seldom find him useful before D3.
Post by: webadict on July 11, 2022, 05:20:44 am
Web - It seems like LurkerTracker died while I was away. Is there a replacement ISO tool to help compile each player's posts individually for analysis?I made some functionalities. Do you need a specific player, or just in general?
Post by: TricMagic on July 11, 2022, 07:14:51 am
TricMagic - Why am I voting you?
Cause of my failure to do my first RTD game.
To Shakerag, why are you asking me the same question? Policy lynching is something to keep in mind, but not totally rely on. It's good during day 1 though.
Post by: TricMagic on July 11, 2022, 07:20:23 am
Probably get lynched Day 2. Also, that doesn't actually work Fal, I'm either working alone or with someone else. So in order to lynch me, you have to figure out my partner. Unless I did something WIFOM like completely ignore my PM Day 1. ;)FallacyofUrist - Is EuchreJack a player in this game?
Raises wing, beak open, then... lowers it slowly.
... Right, forgot Tric took his spot. My bad.
New plan.
We can logically assume that TricMagic is either Town or Mafia. A loyal agent or treacherous traitor. Well... since he's so easy to read, let's just badger him until we can make a solid judgement, then either build our core around him or execute him?
TricMagic: What's your alignment? What's your scum-hunting strategy this game?
As for scum-hunting strat... Wait and see, and vote Shakerag for earlier posts.
Post by: TricMagic on July 11, 2022, 07:29:41 am
:D[1] To be perfectly honest, it's been years since I played a game so fuck if I know anymore. I haven't the foggiest fucking clue what the "meta" is right now.[1] The good news is that this is a Beginner's BYOR, so the shenanigans level should be stuck somewhere between 2 and 4 out of 10.
[2] Literally an impossible question. But as a counter, what information did you think that would give you?
[2] Your perception of yourself. What kind of a player are you? That's a question too.
Cranks the dial to 6
From Lenglen's posts, putting them as a slight town-read right now.
That being said, NJW, Lidku, Knightwing. The rest of the posts is mostly Shakerag/Egan fighting.
Post by: Lenglon on July 11, 2022, 07:42:38 am
In general please, I like to use Lurkertracker when reviewing other people's cases as well as for activity-level analysis. Right now I'd be using it to ISO FoU to see if there's a pattern to their posts and on Maximum Spin because of my follow-up to the FoS I made. If there is a tool such that I can use it on a whim, I'd probably use it repeatedly throughout the game.Web - It seems like LurkerTracker died while I was away. Is there a replacement ISO tool to help compile each player's posts individually for analysis?I made some functionalities. Do you need a specific player, or just in general?
Post by: webadict on July 11, 2022, 07:49:28 am
In general please, I like to use Lurkertracker when reviewing other people's cases as well as for activity-level analysis. Right now I'd be using it to ISO FoU to see if there's a pattern to their posts and on Maximum Spin because of my follow-up to the FoS I made. If there is a tool such that I can use it on a whim, I'd probably use it repeatedly throughout the game.I only have a version that posts to the thread, but I could make a version that sends a PM to keep the thread a bit orderly, but it'd be manual.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 11, 2022, 07:49:32 am
A guide to Tric:
Acting scummy: town
Acting like a townie: scum
As for why I’m not scum? Because… I’m not? Max apparently has a alignment detector for me on them, so they can clear me using voodoo magic, I hope.
By the way: there's probably one scum among Fallacy, Shakerag, Egan.
Explain.
Post by: Lenglon on July 11, 2022, 07:58:10 am
oof, that's inconvenient. I guess I'll be doing things the old-fashioned wsy then, rather than LurkerTrackering the thread on a daily basis. Thank you though, and I may ask for its use later in the game but I'll try to not spam the request.In general please, I like to use Lurkertracker when reviewing other people's cases as well as for activity-level analysis. Right now I'd be using it to ISO FoU to see if there's a pattern to their posts and on Maximum Spin because of my follow-up to the FoS I made. If there is a tool such that I can use it on a whim, I'd probably use it repeatedly throughout the game.I only have a version that posts to the thread, but I could make a version that sends a PM to keep the thread a bit orderly, but it'd be manual.
Post by: Lenglon on July 11, 2022, 08:12:23 am
Probably get lynched Day 2. Also, that doesn't actually work Fal, I'm either working alone or with someone else. So in order to lynch me, you have to figure out my partner. Unless I did something WIFOM like completely ignore my PM Day 1. ;)Tric - that isn't how this works, not in the earlygame. We don't need to find or even concern ourselves with who your partner might or might not be until either you flip or it becomes lategame.
As for scum-hunting strat... Wait and see, and vote Shakerag for earlier posts.Tric - which earlier posts? what's wrong with them?
That being said, NJW, Lidku, Knightwing. The rest of the posts is mostly Shakerag/Egan fighting.Tric - So you dismiss the Shakerag / Egan fight as generally being a nulltell here, but are voting Shakerag over "earlier posts". Make up your mind, is Shake scummy or not? If so, what is scummy about him? If not, then why are you voting him?
Having said that, I left my vote on you for inactivity and you did become active so Unvote
Maximum Spin - Tric has now posted, so I can upgrade my FoS to the vote I wanted it to be.
Post by: Lenglon on July 11, 2022, 08:14:13 am
I trust Tric, for now, at least.So you think Tric is acting scummy right now, since you trust them?
A guide to Tric:
Acting scummy: town
Acting like a townie: scum
Post by: Mamobo on July 11, 2022, 08:32:08 am
------------------------
FallacyofUrist - 2 - Egan_BW* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8388950#msg8388950),
Maximum Spin - 2 - NJW2000* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389090#msg8389090), Lenglon* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389129#msg8389129),
Shakerag - 2 - FallacyofUrist* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8388935#msg8388935), TricMagic* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389110#msg8389110),
Egan_BW - 1 - Shakerag* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8388977#msg8388977),
Knightwing64 - 0 -
Lenglon - 0 -
Lidku - 0 -
NJW2000 - 0 -
TricMagic - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 3 - Knightwing64, Lidku, Maximum Spin,
5 to Hammer. Day ends on July 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (~59 hours remaining).
Post by: Lenglon on July 11, 2022, 08:36:35 am
FallacyofUrist - 2 - Egan_BW* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8388950#msg8388950),Egan - You appear to have two votes. Impressive. What do you plan to do with this power?
Post by: Shakerag on July 11, 2022, 09:35:15 am
Shakerag - In my experience, you are more excited the more disruptive your role is. You appear to be very excited. How disruptive do you plan on being this game?
Kind of role-fishy, but whatever. Regardless, that will just have to be something you find out later.
NJW2000:
Shakerag: what's going on with the discord question here? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8388939#msg8388939)A lazy attempt to trip up scum not paying attention.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 11, 2022, 11:01:19 am
I trust Tric, for now, at least.Yeah, Knightwing looks like town.
A guide to Tric:
Acting scummy: town
Acting like a townie: scum
As for why I’m not scum? Because… I’m not? Max apparently has a alignment detector for me on them, so they can clear me using voodoo magic, I hope.
Quote
Often, when two town players are spatting, a scum player will appear to butt in and egg them on in order to get chummy with one of the two and distance from the other. Under this analysis, Fallacy is the most likely to be scum. On the other hand, often, if that doesn't happen, a scum player will pick a fight with a town player and try to rope in another town player into the same kind of three-way. By that analysis, it's more likely to be Shakerag, although I wouldn't rule out Egan. In general, if I see three players in a runaround like that, I always suspect there's exactly one scum involved, who's trying to generate some interactions to make you think one of the others is also aligned with him in case something happens to out him later. I know for a fact that Fallacy, at least, knows how to do that since I've seen him do it; but I certainly figure the other two could do it as well.By the way: there's probably one scum among Fallacy, Shakerag, Egan.
Explain.
But that's really secondary... the real point of any post you might make on d1 is to see how people react to it, and frankly, I don't believe Lenglon doesn't know what I just said in that paragraph above. I guess I could see NJW as a partner, although it's kind of a stretch, and I don't really think I'm important enough to be a coordinated d1 scum push, so his vote on me actually acts to counteract that suspicion... although I guess that could be the point but, you know, not going to get too in the weeds right now. Lenglon has also been fishing and generally acting pretty scummy, so I'm pretty sure this is where my d1 vote is going to sit.
(Extra beginner mafia tip: I, personally, always find "analysis" to be a scumtell. What I mean is, scum will often try to make cases that don't really make much sense by appealing to a cloud of little details that can vaguely be made to sound bad, to try to make people doubt their intuitions. I think the last person I clearly remember doing this is ToonyMan, who's not in this game and therefore a nice neutral referent. On the other hand, this can also be a crutch of a player who isn't very good and doesn't have much social intuition, so you kind of have to balance it with other observations of the player. I put appeals to statistics in the same category as well.)
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 11, 2022, 11:09:25 am
MaximumSpin - I've never been able to read him and seldom find him useful before D3.Incidentally (taking this at face value)... I've been trying to make more of an effort to be useful earlier, especially since being the n1 kill last game. I look forward to probably being the n1 kill this game too.
Post by: Shakerag on July 11, 2022, 11:41:46 am
More people voting != stronger case. That just means you have more people voting on flimsy reasons which looks bandwagon-y. A stronger case is made by providing additional (and good) reasons to vote someone.NJW2000 - Why should or shouldn't I vote Shakerag after the incredible, absolutely amazing, case that FoU just made?It's a weak case, so I think more people should vote Shakerag, to make the case stronger.
Post by: Lidku on July 11, 2022, 12:15:46 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 11, 2022, 01:20:38 pm
Here is why Max should be today's lynch:
Often, when two town players are spatting, a scum player will appear to butt in and egg them on in order to get chummy with one of the two and distance from the other. Under this analysis, Fallacy is the most likely to be scum. On the other hand, often, if that doesn't happen, a scum player will pick a fight with a town player and try to rope in another town player into the same kind of three-way. By that analysis, it's more likely to be Shakerag, although I wouldn't rule out Egan. In general, if I see three players in a runaround like that, I always suspect there's exactly one scum involved, who's trying to generate some interactions to make you think one of the others is also aligned with him in case something happens to out him later. I know for a fact that Fallacy, at least, knows how to do that since I've seen him do it; but I certainly figure the other two could do it as well.This is.... strange.
But that's really secondary... the real point of any post you might make on d1 is to see how people react to it, and frankly, I don't believe Lenglon doesn't know what I just said in that paragraph above. I guess I could see NJW as a partner, although it's kind of a stretch, and I don't really think I'm important enough to be a coordinated d1 scum push, so his vote on me actually acts to counteract that suspicion... although I guess that could be the point but, you know, not going to get too in the weeds right now. Lenglon has also been fishing and generally acting pretty scummy, so I'm pretty sure this is where my d1 vote is going to sit.
(Extra beginner mafia tip: I, personally, always find "analysis" to be a scumtell. What I mean is, scum will often try to make cases that don't really make much sense by appealing to a cloud of little details that can vaguely be made to sound bad, to try to make people doubt their intuitions. I think the last person I clearly remember doing this is ToonyMan, who's not in this game and therefore a nice neutral referent. On the other hand, this can also be a crutch of a player who isn't very good and doesn't have much social intuition, so you kind of have to balance it with other observations of the player. I put appeals to statistics in the same category as well.)
On the face of things, it's a pretty blatent OMGUS vote, and it's a very large response to a very small accusation, combined with ALMOST actually addressing what I accused Max of, but not quite. Which is an amusingly large combined set of scumtells for a veteran player to have. There is one (and only one) mitigating factor in his response that is leaving me with a few doubts. And that factor is a little complicated. Let me explain:
When I made my accusation of Max here:
I pointed out that there was no town-friendly purpose to his statement, and said lack of town-friendly purpose was the reason for my accusation. (which, to reiterate, is me pointing out "you may or may not be right, but attempting to make a point of this only hurts town.) In his rebuttal, he instead gave reasons he thought his statement might statistically be likely true, which still doesn't actually explain how making that accusation helps town, nor what the purpose of the statement actually was. To my eyes, this kind of deflection is a sign that he doesn't have an actual response to the accusation, and is a significant scumtell. However, as I said, there is one little piece of this jigsaw puzzle here that doesn't fit quite right.By the way: there's probably one scum among Fallacy, Shakerag, Egan.Max - I really dislike this post. It looks to me like setup to attempt to say X was town, so Y should be scum, later on down the line. And in the short term you're basically just egging them on to infight, without getting yourself bogged down by taking an actual position on who is scum. I really just do not see how, be you right or wrong, you are helping anyone but the mafia here. I'm only using FoS because Tric (who my vote is currently on) has yet to post since game start, the moment that Tric shows up, you can expect to see your name in red over this post if something doesn't change. Justify yourself please.
That little bit that doesn't fit right is the advice in the parenthesis at the bottom of his post. You see, he spends an entire paragraph at the top explaining how statistically he was likely right, but at the bottom he calls his own behavior:
(Extra beginner mafia tip: I, personally, always find "analysis" to be a scumtell. What I mean is, scum will often try to make cases that don't really make much sense by appealing to a cloud of little details that can vaguely be made to sound bad, to try to make people doubt their intuitions. I think the last person I clearly remember doing this is ToonyMan, who's not in this game and therefore a nice neutral referent. On the other hand, this can also be a crutch of a player who isn't very good and doesn't have much social intuition, so you kind of have to balance it with other observations of the player. I put appeals to statistics in the same category as well.)a scumtell. Max isn't stupid. He knows he did this. So now I'm confused. I don't quite get WHY he would do this. It doesn't help him as town, but it also doesn't help him as scum. It's just... strange.
Anyway, I guess I'll go ahead and post my intended follow-up accusations of him that I hinted at when asking Web about ISO tools. It's fairly droll though. He simply isn't actually scumhunting... at all.
Why do I say this? Here's a compilation of every post he's made since game start:
Spoiler: Max doesn't question anything (click to show/hide)
I didn't really want to have to make a proper lynch case out of this, but wow was his response to pressure bad.
anyway, I should probably address the accusations he tossed out there with the OMGUS shouldn't I?
In his counter-accusation, he accused me a three things:
1) I should already know the reasoning he used. - This is asking me to be a mind reader, which is silly, and is assuming what he said applied back when I last played. Which it did not. As I said in my conversation with Shake, when I last played was back during extend-spam. Scum would almost never jump in on a fight like he's describing, because activity is the scum's enemy. There was no need to go out of your way to get into a spat with townies, especially the active ones which were likely to have the inattentive ones blindly follow them in a bandwagon. Doing that kind of thing was an easy way to get yourself lynched, and as a result to MY eyes, the spat between Shake and Egan makes them both more towny. and at the time of Max's contentious post, FoU hadn't really been a signifigant participant yet, and was a non-factor. So to me this logic of Max's is a way to try to set up chain-lynches of townie after townie, saying "well one of em's gotta be scum right?"
2) he accused me of fishing. This is actually a CORRECT accusation. I have made a couple minor fishing attempts, and deserve the pushback for it. specifically I fished Shake, which Shake correctly identified when I did it. My reason for doing so is to set up for later in the game, and also it gave me some insight into his likely alignment. I don't feel the need to go further into this at this time.
3) his final accusation is of "generally acting pretty scummy" - which is so vague as to be meaningless. specifics and examples would be lovely, but in the meantime I have no reason to bother addressing something this vague.
Post by: Lenglon on July 11, 2022, 01:30:12 pm
It doesn't change my case in any way, there's still no scumhunting here.MaximumSpin - I've never been able to read him and seldom find him useful before D3.Incidentally (taking this at face value)... I've been trying to make more of an effort to be useful earlier, especially since being the n1 kill last game. I look forward to probably being the n1 kill this game too.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 11, 2022, 03:08:28 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 11, 2022, 03:20:35 pm
I pointed out that there was no town-friendly purpose to his statement, and said lack of town-friendly purpose was the reason for my accusation. (which, to reiterate, is me pointing out "you may or may not be right, but attempting to make a point of this only hurts town.) In his rebuttal, he instead gave reasons he thought his statement might statistically be likely true, which still doesn't actually explain how making that accusation helps town, nor what the purpose of the statement actually was. To my eyes, this kind of deflection is a sign that he doesn't have an actual response to the accusation, and is a significant scumtell. However, as I said, there is one little piece of this jigsaw puzzle here that doesn't fit quite right.... how the fuck does the accusation being right not help town? The point of the game is to find scum and lynch them. If scum are found, and lynched, this helps town.
It doesn't change my case in any way, there's still no scumhunting here.I'm hunting you, dumbass
Post by: Lenglon on July 11, 2022, 03:21:54 pm
I’m gonna wait for Max to respond so I can see both sides of the argument before I give my two centsWhat about the question I asked you earlier?
Also, what are your thoughts about Shakerag vs Egan?
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 11, 2022, 03:27:17 pm
I don't ask people dumb questions. Ever. It's a waste of time pretending to be generating activity. Unfortunately, most of the people who could usually vouch for this aren't playing, so go read some of my first few games or something.
I don't answer questions I think are a waste of time, either.
I don't respond to arguments I think are disingenuous or trivial.
I look for someone who looks like scum, and put my vote on scum. That's how I scumhunt. If you think I'm failing, find me someone who looks more like scum than you do... but I think you're just blowing smoke.
Post by: Shakerag on July 11, 2022, 03:36:26 pm
I don't answer questions I think are a waste of time, either.
I don't think that's a good one to hang on to. Even if you think the question is a waste of time, I probably do not, and refusing to answer wouldn't make me think positively of you.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 11, 2022, 03:40:22 pm
FallacyofUrist - 2 - Egan_BW* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8388950#msg8388950),Egan - You appear to have two votes. Impressive. What do you plan to do with this power?
Murderize scum and be fabulous.
I don't think that Fallacy is scum, though. Unvote.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 11, 2022, 03:41:59 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 11, 2022, 03:46:22 pm
Well, I answered all the questions I remember noticing this time. Did I miss any?I don't answer questions I think are a waste of time, either.
I don't think that's a good one to hang on to. Even if you think the question is a waste of time, I probably do not, and refusing to answer wouldn't make me think positively of you.
Post by: Lenglon on July 11, 2022, 03:47:40 pm
You aren't this stupid, so stop pretending that you can't read. I've explained this twice already, I have no need to bother humoring you a third time.I pointed out that there was no town-friendly purpose to his statement, and said lack of town-friendly purpose was the reason for my accusation. (which, to reiterate, is me pointing out "you may or may not be right, but attempting to make a point of this only hurts town.) In his rebuttal, he instead gave reasons he thought his statement might statistically be likely true, which still doesn't actually explain how making that accusation helps town, nor what the purpose of the statement actually was. To my eyes, this kind of deflection is a sign that he doesn't have an actual response to the accusation, and is a significant scumtell. However, as I said, there is one little piece of this jigsaw puzzle here that doesn't fit quite right.... how the fuck does the accusation being right not help town? The point of the game is to find scum and lynch them. If scum are found, and lynched, this helps town.
And other obvious lies. Do you honestly think I or anyone else is impressed with your "case" on me?It doesn't change my case in any way, there's still no scumhunting here.I'm hunting you, dumbass
Look, Lenglon, obviously you aren't familiar with my playstyle. I've had this same problem before with just about everyone else.I don't think you're failing (though I do think you're flailing). I think you aren't even trying. Failing would be if you try to find scum and either mis-identify town or come up with a giant load of null. You aren't failing, because you aren't trying in the first place. Stop making excuses, stop active-lurking, and instead get off your ass and participate.
I don't ask people dumb questions. Ever. It's a waste of time pretending to be generating activity. Unfortunately, most of the people who could usually vouch for this aren't playing, so go read some of my first few games or something.
I don't answer questions I think are a waste of time, either.
I don't respond to arguments I think are disingenuous or trivial.
I look for someone who looks like scum, and put my vote on scum. That's how I scumhunt. If you think I'm failing, find me someone who looks more like scum than you do... but I think you're just blowing smoke.
Hey people: look at Max still continuing the pattern even after I called him out on it. The only person he is engaging with is me, and that's because the only thing he cares about is saving his own skin, not finding scum. Hey Max, you want me off your back? Actually try to find the mafia. It's not complicated. You just can't do it because you already know who they are, and you're one of them. You already know in the back of your head that what you're seeing from various players is not a scumtell.
PPE:
I can confirm from my readings that Max is usually this unhelpful regardless of alignment.Wait what? So he just afk's all D1 every game? ...
Shakerag: can you verify that Max is always this worthless regardless of alignment?
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 11, 2022, 03:52:51 pm
You aren't this stupid, so stop pretending that you can't read. I've explained this twice already, I have no need to bother humoring you a third time.Okay, let me be clearer. I think your argument is retarded and obviously wrong, so I'm not going to pay any more attention to it.
This is a beginner's mafia game. There is obviously a town-friendly purpose to pointing out patterns for beginners to notice them. You just flatly assert "there's no town-friendly purpose to it!" without any basis, why should I give that any value? If you can't see the town-friendly purpose, that's your problem.
And other obvious lies. Do you honestly think I or anyone else is impressed with your "case" on me?Yes, I think most people can see what you're doing even without my pointing it out. Maybe I give them too much credit. Of course, I don't care about impressing you, as I don't expect you to vote for yourself.
To be sure, I don't know whether others will vote for you this turn, but I'm sure they'll all remember this later, when it counts.
Post by: Shakerag on July 11, 2022, 04:02:50 pm
Shakerag: can you verify that Max is always this worthless regardless of alignment?
Imma be honest with you; it's been so long since I played my last game I don't know if I could give a meta read on anyone anymore.
Post by: Lenglon on July 11, 2022, 04:05:33 pm
Fair.Shakerag: can you verify that Max is always this worthless regardless of alignment?
Imma be honest with you; it's been so long since I played my last game I don't know if I could give a meta read on anyone anymore.
FoU - What is the Maximum Spin normal meta?
Post by: TricMagic on July 11, 2022, 04:34:34 pm
You aren't this stupid, so stop pretending that you can't read. I've explained this twice already, I have no need to bother humoring you a third time.Okay, let me be clearer. I think your argument is retarded and obviously wrong, so I'm not going to pay any more attention to it.
This is a beginner's mafia game. There is obviously a town-friendly purpose to pointing out patterns for beginners to notice them. You just flatly assert "there's no town-friendly purpose to it!" without any basis, why should I give that any value? If you can't see the town-friendly purpose, that's your problem.And other obvious lies. Do you honestly think I or anyone else is impressed with your "case" on me?Yes, I think most people can see what you're doing even without my pointing it out. Maybe I give them too much credit. Of course, I don't care about impressing you, as I don't expect you to vote for yourself.
To be sure, I don't know whether others will vote for you this turn, but I'm sure they'll all remember this later, when it counts.
Not particularly. You're being unhelpful, as usual. Lenglon is getting onto you about that MaxSpin.
Post by: Lenglon on July 11, 2022, 04:43:45 pm
In addition. You just said that Max is behaving in a normal manner for Max, implying that my case is actually based on nulltells instead of scumtells. If you think that, why are you voting Max?
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 11, 2022, 04:44:56 pm
You're being unhelpful, as usual.Really.
I actually finally have something I can do to be helpful on d1: Read Knightwing. And I did that. That's more helpful than anyone else has been so far.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 11, 2022, 05:07:01 pm
Murderize scum and be fabulous.
I don't think that Fallacy is scum, though. Unvote.
Why don't you think I'm scum, Egan? As much as I enjoy your mafia persona, this response is a bit too casual and unjustified. I could be planning to stab you in the wing right this instant.
I actually finally have something I can do to be helpful on d1: Read Knightwing. And I did that. That's more helpful than anyone else has been so far.... Anyone could have done that?
I think my vote is most useful on you right now, Maximum Spin. I believe that makes three. Personally I'm not ready to execute you, but Lenglon has made enough good points about your engagement (or rather the lack thereof) with the material posted that the switch is worthwhile to create pressure.
Really, I know that this is in line with your meta, but at the same time, using that as an excuse to reduce your engagement would be a perfectly reasonable scum tactic.
If you are town? Tell me who's scum. Top three picks, actually. You can include me if you want, just have decent reasons for it.
I'm hunting you, dumbassWhy?
Fair.
FoU - What is the Maximum Spin normal meta?
Yes, Lenglon, this is... pretty much it. Standoffish, prideful about his perceived ability to be logical, and preferential towards avoiding 'noise', as I might term it.
That's not to say that he wouldn't be more engaged while still fitting this pattern if he were town, though, which is why I'm willing to join my vote with yours for the time being. I don't think he's produced any useful content thus far, unfortunately. Maybe the pressure will make him engage more.
Worst case scenario that's a valid policy execution, it's just that I'd prefer to either have more substantial reasons to take him out, that or finding a better target after Max manages to justify himself well enough.
It's a start?
Post by: Lenglon on July 11, 2022, 05:11:09 pm
I say this now because I didn't like Tric's (lack of) reason for voting the same person I'm voting, but it does apply accross the board.
Web: could we please get a votecount? I'm concerned that we're quite close to hammer at this time.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 11, 2022, 05:21:16 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 11, 2022, 05:24:19 pm
Murderize scum and be fabulous.
I don't think that Fallacy is scum, though. Unvote.
Why don't you think I'm scum, Egan? As much as I enjoy your mafia persona, this response is a bit too casual and unjustified. I could be planning to stab you in the wing right this instant.
Perhaps i should say that I'm not sufficiently convinced that you're scum. I have two votes so I should be a little cautious with them, don't you think?
I do think there's some logic to the idea that there's scum between you and Shakerag (and me, from an outside perspective), as Max said. Though obviously he should have explained why first off and his reaction to being asked to explain why is strange. I know that I said that he's acting his usual self but it does seem a bit stronger than usual by my money.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 11, 2022, 05:26:44 pm
Unvote. Quick check shows, you, NJW, Tric, and me on Max, and that's one vote off from hammer. I'd rather not have someone accidentally execute Max within something like the first 24 hours of the day.
Means we're still in hammer range if I vote, right? Careful of that. If I were scum and Max weren't, this could be an awkward situation.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 11, 2022, 05:32:33 pm
I don’t think it’s Lenglon either though. I think it’s just a difference in how they play the game.
Post by: Lenglon on July 11, 2022, 05:41:28 pm
So you think Tric is acting scummy right now, since you trust them?
Also, what are your thoughts about Shakerag vs Egan?
Post by: Lenglon on July 11, 2022, 05:44:18 pm
Murderize scum and be fabulous.
I don't think that Fallacy is scum, though. Unvote.
Why don't you think I'm scum, Egan? As much as I enjoy your mafia persona, this response is a bit too casual and unjustified. I could be planning to stab you in the wing right this instant.
Perhaps i should say that I'm not sufficiently convinced that you're scum. I have two votes so I should be a little cautious with them, don't you think?
I do think there's some logic to the idea that there's scum between you and Shakerag (and me, from an outside perspective), as Max said. Though obviously he should have explained why first off and his reaction to being asked to explain why is strange. I know that I said that he's acting his usual self but it does seem a bit stronger than usual by my money.
Egan - Why are you making implied threats to FoU instead of answering his question?Unvote. Quick check shows, you, NJW, Tric, and me on Max, and that's one vote off from hammer. I'd rather not have someone accidentally execute Max within something like the first 24 hours of the day.
Means we're still in hammer range if I vote, right? Careful of that. If I were scum and Max weren't, this could be an awkward situation.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 11, 2022, 05:53:40 pm
Post by: Lidku on July 11, 2022, 05:58:30 pm
Also, Lenglon is acting kind of aggro.. Could be a town demeanor... but I feel like it's way too early to be acting this aggressive. On a D1 one, there is nothing to really go off of.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 11, 2022, 05:59:42 pm
Also, Lenglon is acting kind of aggro.. Could be a town demeanor... but I feel like it's way too early to be acting this aggressive. On a D1 one, there is nothing to really go off of.Eh. Aggression and pursuit are nearly always better for the town than the mafia. Those methods generate more activity and more data to analyze. Even on day one.
Post by: Lenglon on July 11, 2022, 06:01:02 pm
Is that not an answer? I suspect Fal some from the way he jumped in between me and shakerag, but I'm not certain enough to put doublevotes on him.This is an answer, to my eyes your earlier response was not, but now that I've seen this one I do see how you did say the same thing in the earlier one, thank you for clarifying.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 11, 2022, 06:04:02 pm
Though obviously he should have explained why first off and his reaction to being asked to explain why is strange.I did explain why, to Knightwing. I was more than happy to explain why. I was hoping to explain why! (Okay, I probably should've just explained why without needing to be asked, but, like I said at the time, I posted like that to gauge how people engaged with it.) My reaction was to being told, as a thought-free flat assertion, it was a scumtell by someone whom I thought would have understood my point.
Buuuuut...
Quote
I know that I said that he's acting his usual self but it does seem a bit stronger than usual by my money.... yeah. I do feel like I was really irritable this morning. I more or less understand why (external reasons probably not relevant to explain). I don't normally let things bleed out like that, but this was definitely bothering me more than it should've been. It's honestly annoying to me because I've been accused of overreacting as mafia before, so I feel like that's just going to feed people's assumptions, but it honestly really was just an unrelated bad mood... well, anyway.
Fallacy, how have I not been engaged? I've been talking to people in this thread almost all the free time I have. I'm genuinely curious what specific things you think I'm not doing that I "would do as town". I know Lenglon thinks I should be asking people questions, but you know that's never my style. I prefer to sit and chat casually while looking to see whether anyone pegs my intuition, which is exactly what I've been doing.
If you are town? Tell me who's scum. Top three picks, actually. You can include me if you want, just have decent reasons for it.This question both A) stresses me out and B) separately makes me doubt you. I think you know very well that I hate being asked this, especially on d1. I don't trust you asking it. It's d1, I'm not good at d1, I'm never sure who to suspect until I see at least one flip or some kind of night result (and that wouldn't be much in this probably power-heavy setup anyway).
I'm having this increasing nasty suspicion that this entire fight with Lenglon has been me tunnelling on someone for jumping to conclusions that I in turn assume to be in bad faith, just like you should remember happening in your MVMarathon when I managed to do it twice in one game, first on whoever roleblocked me (sorry I don't remember the name) and then again on Roden. But I still FEEL SUSPICIOUS ABOUT him. It doesn't just go away just because I start to think I might be in a blind alley. So... look, let me sort of half-answer your question, excluding Lenglon, and just tell you how I feel about the people.
NJW2000 and Lidku have not posted much. I think NJW has only posted once, and it feels like Lidku has done barely more than that. I don't trust this. Honestly, if I had to pick one OTP Scumteam out of everyone, I might say it's just the two of them riding it out and hoping to casually get me lynched in the shitfight.
You, Fallacy, give me a bad vibe. On the other hand, you're a weirdo. Maybe it's just that.
Shakerag is really null. I guess he seems to be behaving constructively? Like, if I were to give him the Knightwing Metric, I guess I'd say town, but he isn't Knightwing. The Knightwing Metric doesn't work on non-Knightwings, I saw that last time. :P
Speaking of which, Knightwing64 is town. TricMagic is... probably town. He looks like he's making weird decisions for vaguely scummy reasons, which is normal for town Tric. I don't think he's at the point of faking that successfully yet, but I don't know for sure. And finally, so far I think Egan_BW is town.
...
I guess I should unvote.
NJW2000 and Lidku, what're you two up to?
Oh, Lidku just showed up, while I was writing, huh. Moving my vote to NJW2000 then. He still needs to DO MORE, though.
Post by: Lenglon on July 11, 2022, 06:12:08 pm
But I still FEEL SUSPICIOUS ABOUT him.((Her, by the way.))
Post by: Lidku on July 11, 2022, 06:16:41 pm
Quote from: Maximum Spin
NJW2000 and Lidku have not posted much. I think NJW has only posted once, and it feels like Lidku has done barely more than that. I don't trust this. Honestly, if I had to pick one OTP Scumteam out of everyone, I might say it's just the two of them riding it out and hoping to casually get me lynched in the shitfight.
Quote from: Maximum Spin
I guess I should unvote.
NJW2000 and Lidku, what're you two up to?
Quote from: Maximum Spin
Oh, Lidku just showed up, while I was writing, huh. Moving my vote to NJW2000 then. He still needs to DO MORE, though.
Apologies for the inactivity, but I DID preface earlier that I was at the mall doing IRL matters.
This is my second BYOR game and I think I just usually like to be passive in general on D1, then try to actively solve on D2 (like I did before). There is just never enough to go on in a D1 to make any substantive determination on who is Mafia, in general. The D1 vote, if it occurs, most likely just kills a town; then after that, the Mafia will be able to get another kill on N1.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 11, 2022, 06:16:45 pm
Egan: do you have any way we can confirm you as doing something other than mafiakilling and being mafia and stuff?It's a BYOR, I don't hold any answers if there's an inspection power which ignores autos which would spoof them or something. But my auto lies to inspects, survey, and tracks. If you have something which isn't those and indicates alignment, it'd work. If both me and the killer get surveyed, we'd both show up as having used mafiakill which shouldn't be possible, so you'd know there's some kind of unreliable inspection going on.
Don't necessarily say what it is, withholding information about your power is a good idea D1. A yes/no/maybe answer might be enough.
And I still flip as town. Not an ideal solution, but it would work.
Best solution is always to just figure it out from how I'm acting, of course.
Post by: Mamobo on July 11, 2022, 06:33:56 pm
------------------------
Maximum Spin - 3 - NJW2000* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389090#msg8389090), Lenglon* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389129#msg8389129), TricMagic* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389271#msg8389271),
Egan_BW - 1 - Shakerag* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8388977#msg8388977),
NJW2000 - 1 - Maximum Spin* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389317#msg8389317),
FallacyofUrist - 0 -
Knightwing64 - 0 -
Lenglon - 0 -
Lidku - 0 -
Shakerag - 0 -
TricMagic - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 4 - Egan_BW* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389247#msg8389247), FallacyofUrist* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389292#msg8389292), Knightwing64, Lidku,
5 to Hammer. Day ends on July 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (~49 hours remaining).
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 11, 2022, 06:51:16 pm
This is my second BYOR game and I think I just usually like to be passive in general on D1, then try to actively solve on D2 (like I did before). There is just never enough to go on in a D1 to make any substantive determination on who is Mafia, in general. The D1 vote, if it occurs, most likely just kills a town; then after that, the Mafia will be able to get another kill on N1.There's a good argument to be made for the existence of a kill-less Night 0 phase, just for this reason. That didn't happen this game, though, so we're left with a purely behavior-based start.
It's a BYOR, I don't hold any answers if there's an inspection power which ignores autos which would spoof them or something. But my auto lies to inspects, survey, and tracks. If you have something which isn't those and indicates alignment, it'd work. If both me and the killer get surveyed, we'd both show up as having used mafiakill which shouldn't be possible, so you'd know there's some kind of unreliable inspection going on.All my actions show up as mafiakill actions, because BYOR. Bolded so nobody misses it.
And I still flip as town. Not an ideal solution, but it would work.
Best solution is always to just figure it out from how I'm acting, of course.
Now with that aside.
To everyone that isn't Egan. Do you think Egan and I are the scumteam?
I know I'm not scum. So far I'm reading Egan as 70% town. Their reasoning for voting and unvoting me feels... unjustified? Without foundation. But that's about it, and they've been acting a bit gutsy, coming out like this, so combined with my own role info, I'm inclined to believe they're not lying, at least giving them the benefit of the doubt.
[1] Fallacy, how have I not been engaged? I've been talking to people in this thread almost all the free time I have. I'm genuinely curious what specific things you think I'm not doing that I "would do as town". I know Lenglon thinks I should be asking people questions, but you know that's never my style. I prefer to sit and chat casually while looking to see whether anyone pegs my intuition, which is exactly what I've been doing.If you are town? Tell me who's scum. Top three picks, actually. You can include me if you want, just have decent reasons for it.[2] This question both A) stresses me out and B) separately makes me doubt you. I think you know very well that I hate being asked this, especially on d1. I don't trust you asking it. It's d1, I'm not good at d1, I'm never sure who to suspect until I see at least one flip or some kind of night result (and that wouldn't be much in this probably power-heavy setup anyway).
[3] I'm having this increasing nasty suspicion that this entire fight with Lenglon has been me tunnelling on someone for jumping to conclusions that I in turn assume to be in bad faith, just like you should remember happening in your MVMarathon when I managed to do it twice in one game, first on whoever roleblocked me (sorry I don't remember the name) and then again on Roden. But I still FEEL SUSPICIOUS ABOUT him. It doesn't just go away just because I start to think I might be in a blind alley. So... look, let me sort of half-answer your question, excluding Lenglon, and just tell you how I feel about the people.
[4]
NJW2000 and Lidku have not posted much. I think NJW has only posted once, and it feels like Lidku has done barely more than that. I don't trust this. Honestly, if I had to pick one OTP Scumteam out of everyone, I might say it's just the two of them riding it out and hoping to casually get me lynched in the shitfight.
You, Fallacy, give me a bad vibe. On the other hand, you're a weirdo. Maybe it's just that.
Shakerag is really null. I guess he seems to be behaving constructively? Like, if I were to give him the Knightwing Metric, I guess I'd say town, but he isn't Knightwing. The Knightwing Metric doesn't work on non-Knightwings, I saw that last time. :P
Speaking of which, Knightwing64 is town. TricMagic is... probably town. He looks like he's making weird decisions for vaguely scummy reasons, which is normal for town Tric. I don't think he's at the point of faking that successfully yet, but I don't know for sure. And finally, so far I think Egan_BW is town.
[1] I'm not going to say that questions are required for engagement. But if you're not asking questions, you had better have a pretty good substitute, instead of looking like a member of the peanut gallery. I think a townier version of you would... continued in [3, 4].
[2] I would ask this question to anyone I found suspicious on any day, though I'd get more specific on later days. It's good for days one through three, if you ask me. Though if you asked the question to me, I think I'd flounder for a bit before coming up with a good answer. It's hard for me to pay attention to everyone at once. Right now I have the most attention paid to you, Lenglon, and Egan, with a little Shakerag on the side. Everyone else is under the radar for me, unfortunately.
... though maybe that's just because you, Lenglon, Egan, and Rag are the most active aside from me.
[3] See, this sort of content is what I'd consider more active engagement. Even if you're not asking questions, it helps position you relative to the rest of the players, and establishes your views in a more concrete fashion. Making comparisons using available information. It seems like you're more really a part of the game. If you want to not ask questions, I can accept that, but you need more content like this to help make up the gap. IF you are town, then that's honest feedback to you.
[4] Reads lists are similarly useful. Though I'm not sure how useful 'bad vibe' is. I can also accept gut feelings as data, so long as they're backed up with other connections. What makes me seem scummy?
... you may have already pointed out something that backs this up, and I apologize if I missed that. From the rhetorician side of things, though, a quote of your earlier statements can be a good tool if you're building on it, not just reiterating on it.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 11, 2022, 06:54:18 pm
All my actions show up as mafiakill actions, because BYOR.
I've made a wonderful decision.
Post by: NJW2000 on July 11, 2022, 06:55:03 pm
Important question for fou FIRST then Egan: do your actions inspect as TARGETING the nightkill? Say I die but you target max, who do you show up as targeting?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 11, 2022, 06:59:08 pm
My actions show up as mafiakill actions, but their apparent targeting is not modified from what it actually is.
Post by: Lenglon on July 11, 2022, 07:12:36 pm
To everyone that isn't Egan. Do you think Egan and I are the scumteam?I am not interested in speculating about the scumteam as a group, and performing relational analysis, on day 1.
Individually you are each more townie than the players that have not posted enough content to form a read off of (Tric, Knightwing, NJW).
Post by: Lidku on July 11, 2022, 07:15:52 pm
To everyone that isn't Egan. Do you think Egan and I are the scumteam?I am not interested in speculating about the scumteam as a group, and performing relational analysis, on day 1.
Individually you are each more townie than the players that have not posted enough content to form a read off of (Tric, Knightwing, NJW).
NJW has posted recently. That just really leaves Tric and Knightwing.. but I personally think inactivity is a somewhat weak modem to go off of... They could be doing IRL things. Usually I believe it's more likely that the Mafia is always active in a thread, as a means to deflect suspicion that they COULD be Mafia.. An inverse of what you've posted.
Post by: Shakerag on July 11, 2022, 07:19:27 pm
To everyone that isn't Egan. Do you think Egan and I are the scumteam?
Scumteam predictions on D1 are fucking stupid. Having said that, they could be useful on later days. To specifically answer your question I do not know.
I'll be ready to really start drunk shitposting in an hour or so.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 11, 2022, 07:21:00 pm
[3] See, this sort of content is what I'd consider more active engagement. Even if you're not asking questions, it helps position you relative to the rest of the players, and establishes your views in a more concrete fashion. Making comparisons using available information. It seems like you're more really a part of the game. If you want to not ask questions, I can accept that, but you need more content like this to help make up the gap. IF you are town, then that's honest feedback to you.That's fair. I've said before I don't like giving reads on d1 because I don't like giving people I suspect a heads-up before they have a chance to do things to make me suspect them more, but I've been trying to get over that these last few games. I'm also realizing that the only people in this game with whom I've been playing much lately (not counting webadict who sadly cannot vouch for me) are Knightwing and TricMagic, so I can't rely on the "just like in that other game" shorthand that I... have a strong tendency to rely on and expect people to understand where I'm coming from. So that's a challenge.
[4] Reads lists are similarly useful.
Actually, funnily enough, I thought EuchreJack was in this one too, when you did. Totally missed that he got switched out.
Quote
Though I'm not sure how useful 'bad vibe' is. I can also accept gut feelings as data, so long as they're backed up with other connections. What makes me seem scummy?Well, concretely, what I can think of right now are the two things I mentioned: Interjecting yourself into the Shakerag/Egan fight, and putting me on the spot with a "PROVE YOU'RE TOWN, GIVE YOUR TOP THREE READS" that you even now admit you'd struggle with at the same time. But I guess you probably didn't mean it to be as confrontationally "answer me these questions three" as I interpreted it, based on what you've said here. I read it as more of a challenge than you seem to have meant it.
... you may have already pointed out something that backs this up, and I apologize if I missed that. From the rhetorician side of things, though, a quote of your earlier statements can be a good tool if you're building on it, not just reiterating on it.
But at the same time... I am a really, really, really intuitionistic player and sometimes I don't have more than gut feelings and maybe a couple vague things to point to. I'm sorry, but you do have to accept that. All I can plead is that it seems to work okay, at least as well as everyone else does. This is honestly why I do let d1 slip by: it's definitely not my time to shine, and I kind of just expect/hope that people will give me enough credit to get through it so I can sit down and try actually finding scum d2 and on.
Post by: Shakerag on July 11, 2022, 07:22:26 pm
All my actions show up as mafiakill actions, because BYOR. Bolded so nobody misses it.
To be fair, that seems a little too batshit for even a beginner BYOR. Additionally sus because since that's miller-ish and you didn't claim it in your first post.
Now I have to wonder if you'd be the kind of person to pull a gambit like that or if wubba is off his goddamn rocker...
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 11, 2022, 07:23:44 pm
Now I have to wonder if you'd be the kind of person to pull a gambit like that or if wubba is off his goddamn rocker...Oh that's easy.
Yes, but also yes.
Post by: Shakerag on July 11, 2022, 07:28:05 pm
Now I have to wonder if you'd be the kind of person to pull a gambit like that or if wubba is off his goddamn rocker...Oh that's easy.
Yes, but also yes.
ಠ_ಠ
Post by: Lenglon on July 11, 2022, 07:30:09 pm
NJW has posted recently. That just really leaves Tric and Knightwing.. but I personally think inactivity is a somewhat weak modem to go off of... They could be doing IRL things. Usually I believe it's more likely that the Mafia is always active in a thread, as a means to deflect suspicion that they COULD be Mafia.. An inverse of what you've posted.NJW literally has made one single post since game start. That is not enough content to form a read. I don't have any problems with that one post. It's a good post. But it's still a single, isolated, post. There is not enough content there to form a read, and you are deluding yourself if you think you can make a read from someone's first post of the game. (which is also why I am completely ignoring Max's claim that Knightwing is town.)
But at the same time... I am a really, really, really intuitionistic player and sometimes I don't have more than gut feelings and maybe a couple vague things to point to. I'm sorry, but you do have to accept that. All I can plead is that it seems to work okay, at least as well as everyone else does. This is honestly why I do let d1 slip by: it's definitely not my time to shine, and I kind of just expect/hope that people will give me enough credit to get through it so I can sit down and try actually finding scum d2 and on.Max - I am much the same actually. I often end up posting my read lists in pairs. I'll have an emotional read list, and a logical read list. And they will often conflict with each other. In point of fact, you'll usually find me getting the most involved with and questioning the hardest those people who I have a mismatched read about.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 11, 2022, 07:37:18 pm
Knightwing64 - Please stop ignoring my questions.So you think Tric is acting scummy right now, since you trust them?Also, what are your thoughts about Shakerag vs Egan?
I just posted a large paragraph with my answer to both of those and it got deleted. So, 1: stupid question. 2: don’t side with either.
I don’t believe Max is scum. I honestly believe you guys would be making a mistake voting then. They are acting the same as they normally would.
Post by: Lenglon on July 11, 2022, 07:43:36 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 11, 2022, 07:48:31 pm
Yeah, I haven’t posted much, but there’s over two days left. I had a busy day.
Important question for fou FIRST then Egan: do your actions inspect as TARGETING the nightkill? Say I die but you target max, who do you show up as targeting?
I mentioned tracking powers before, they show as me targeting whoever died.
Post by: Lenglon on July 11, 2022, 07:51:04 pm
Yeah, I haven’t posted much, but there’s over two days left. I had a busy day.whoopsie, missed that NJW had made a second post. No comment on this since it clearly has follow-up that hasn't played out yet.
Important question for fou FIRST then Egan: do your actions inspect as TARGETING the nightkill? Say I die but you target max, who do you show up as targeting?
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 11, 2022, 07:55:23 pm
In all seriousness...Now I have to wonder if you'd be the kind of person to pull a gambit like that or if wubba is off his goddamn rocker...Oh that's easy.
Yes, but also yes.
ಠ_ಠ
I know Fallacy is capable of pulling a gambit like that, because we've discussed just such gambits together in a mafia chat before. The latest KWN. We are definitely on the same page when it comes to bold gambits. I think he'd say the same of me.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 11, 2022, 08:00:35 pm
To be fair, that seems a little too batshit for even a beginner BYOR. Additionally sus because since that's miller-ish and you didn't claim it in your first post.Miller-ish? Sure. It's tricky because it's tied up in some other stuff about my role, and ultimately it's nowhere near as nasty as just plain alignment inspecting as mafia.
Now I have to wonder if you'd be the kind of person to pull a gambit like that or if wubba is off his goddamn rocker...
When Egan claimed, I decided I wanted to paint a more clear picture by adding in my own information.
But yes, I would pull a gambit like this if I was scum, and Egan would probably join me. Can't lie about that, we're exactly that kind of crazy, and this is WIFOM.
Regardless, I am town.
In all seriousness...
I know Fallacy is capable of pulling a gambit like that, because we've discussed just such gambits together in a mafia chat before. The latest KWN. We are definitely on the same page when it comes to bold gambits. I think he'd say the same of me.
Fingerguns but actually paw guns but actually wing guns. Exactly. Though I don't think you'd be quite this crazy.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 11, 2022, 08:05:21 pm
Post by: Lidku on July 11, 2022, 08:05:41 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 11, 2022, 08:06:58 pm
Jim and Euche have apparently joined a spectator chat on us. Since they're in a chat together, they're informal scum and we should get 'em outta here.
Focus.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 11, 2022, 08:07:18 pm
But yes, I would pull a gambit like this if I was scum, and Egan would probably join me. Can't lie about that, we're exactly that kind of crazy, and this is WIFOM.
Regardless, I am town.
Admittedly, that is probably something I'd go along with if me and you were scum together and both online at the start of the game. Maybe we'll get our chance in some future game.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 11, 2022, 08:07:47 pm
fuc uJim and Euche have apparently joined a spectator chat on us. Since they're in a chat together, they're informal scum and we should get 'em outta here.
Focus.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 11, 2022, 08:08:31 pm
... they'd probably lie about it with me if I claimed it, and that would be absolutely hilarious, but no, I think I'll draw the line there for all of your sakes.
Post by: Shakerag on July 11, 2022, 08:09:08 pm
I find it strange that TricMagic has been so quiet as of late. In the last game we were in, he was very active in making D1 claims and was very responsive in general. Though I've often said that inactivity is a very lukewarm way of building evidence, at least the other two very inactive players as posted today (NJW and Knigtwing)... Just a smidgeon-holey thought, but he's just likely busy with IRL things atm.
The problem is, since is -is- a beginner game it's almost inevitable at least one player will flake out and need a replacement. I try not to focus -as hard- on D1 inactivity in a beginner's game because of that. If this wasn't a beginner's game then, yeah, nail their asses to a wall.
Post by: Lidku on July 11, 2022, 08:09:25 pm
fuc uJim and Euche have apparently joined a spectator chat on us. Since they're in a chat together, they're informal scum and we should get 'em outta here.
Focus.
O_o
Post by: Shakerag on July 11, 2022, 08:10:37 pm
I would also like to state, for the record, that Egan and I are not masons together.
FallacyofUrist that is a weird thing to suddenly throw out. Why would you say that now? What is your thought process that told you it was a good idea to say that?
Post by: Shakerag on July 11, 2022, 08:11:14 pm
fuc uJim and Euche have apparently joined a spectator chat on us. Since they're in a chat together, they're informal scum and we should get 'em outta here.
Focus.
Promise or a threat, sweetheart?
Post by: Egan_BW on July 11, 2022, 08:12:13 pm
You can figure that out yourself.fuc uJim and Euche have apparently joined a spectator chat on us. Since they're in a chat together, they're informal scum and we should get 'em outta here.
Focus.
Promise or a threat, sweetheart?
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 11, 2022, 08:12:52 pm
Lidku seems to be doing okay. NJW2000 seems to be doing okay. I guess if I feel worse about anyone since last time, it might be... Shakerag?
I think I need to take a little time to think about this.
Unvote.
Wait this is new.
Yeah, I'd like to categorically agree that I find that really weird.I would also like to state, for the record, that Egan and I are not masons together.
FallacyofUrist that is a weird thing to suddenly throw out. Why would you say that now? What is your thought process that told you it was a good idea to say that?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 11, 2022, 08:14:21 pm
The stupid reason is that I'm preventing my future self from trying to pull that later, because I know I'd be tempted to do so. Also to prevent Egan from doing the same.I would also like to state, for the record, that Egan and I are not masons together.
FallacyofUrist that is a weird thing to suddenly throw out. Why would you say that now? What is your thought process that told you it was a good idea to say that?
The smarter reason is that I am explicitly stating that no, we are not coordinating. You may decide that I'm lying about that and I can't help it if you do so.
Maybe you'll execute us first just for the sheer WIFOM.
But it makes the game more interesting, so I'm going for it.
There's also another reason I've decided to claim after Egan, which I'm not sharing this Day. Suffice it to say that it creates an advantage of sorts, but only for me and maybe Egan, not for sure us both.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 11, 2022, 08:15:38 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 11, 2022, 08:18:15 pm
The stupid reason is that I'm preventing my future self from trying to pull that later, because I know I'd be tempted to do so. Also to prevent Egan from doing the same.I would also like to state, for the record, that Egan and I are not masons together.
FallacyofUrist that is a weird thing to suddenly throw out. Why would you say that now? What is your thought process that told you it was a good idea to say that?
The smarter reason is that I am explicitly stating that no, we are not coordinating. You may decide that I'm lying about that and I can't help it if you do so.
Maybe you'll execute us first just for the sheer WIFOM.
But it makes the game more interesting, so I'm going for it.
There's also another reason I've decided to claim after Egan, which I'm not sharing this Day. Suffice it to say that it creates an advantage of sorts, but only for me and maybe Egan, not for sure us both.
Huh. Unvote
Rude as it may be, I don't think you have the balls to pull of a gambit like that, so that's acceptable. But, I think you tipped your hand that your role absolutely is connected to Egan in some way.
Post by: Shakerag on July 11, 2022, 08:36:29 pm
Lenglon is either town or good scum. Either way, one to keep around because she drives activity. If she's town, awesome. If she's scum, she's potentially giving us more info to hang her with later.
Maximum Spin is apparently shit, but everyone agrees he is shit D1/D2. Neutral but leaning towards a policy lynch.
FallacyofUrist - Might be town or scum doing a really ballsy gambit. Can't say for now.
Likdu - Is new, hard to gauge.
Egan_BW - New but maybe town. Miller claims are sus but who knows.
NJW2000 - two posts; not enough info
TricMagic - lazy posting, definately leaning scum reads or shit town
Knightwing64 - looks new, but maybe an idiot. Leaning scum because of lack of engagement.
I want to vote Egan because I don't like millar claims, but re-read says TricMagic looks the scummiest at this point in time.
Post by: Shakerag on July 11, 2022, 08:46:02 pm
You put a FoS on NJW and Knightwing earlier? Want to justify that now or change your mind?
Post by: Shakerag on July 11, 2022, 08:50:25 pm
As for scum-hunting strat... Wait and see, and vote Shakerag for earlier posts.
Town likes to hunt, scum likes to tag along. Why are you being passive? It kind of looks like you wanted to vote me because I was "fighting" with Egan, but you jumped ships onto Max because of Lenglon pretty quickly. Looking like you don't have your own arguments for voting someone.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 11, 2022, 08:53:34 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 11, 2022, 08:56:52 pm
It's said that when tric looks like scum he is town and vice versa, or that him not making sense is a towntell for him. But I also haven't really watched him and paid enough attention to really know that distinction.
To be fair, I don't -really- like meta arguments. If you're acting scummy I'm going to call it regardless.
Post by: Shakerag on July 11, 2022, 08:57:42 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 11, 2022, 08:59:44 pm
It's said that when tric looks like scum he is town and vice versa, or that him not making sense is a towntell for him. But I also haven't really watched him and paid enough attention to really know that distinction.
And if I was -very- paranoid, I'd say that's looking a bit chainsaw-y. But that's a note for a later day.
Post by: Shakerag on July 11, 2022, 09:07:12 pm
I mentioned tracking powers before, they show as me targeting whoever died.
Interesting. I just want to highlight this statement. I'm not sure how I feel about it alignment-wise, but I feel it's important to remember.
You never followed up on this; why?All my actions show up as mafiakill actions, because BYOR.
I've made a wonderful decision.
Post by: Shakerag on July 11, 2022, 09:10:13 pm
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 11, 2022, 09:10:37 pm
Ok, time to gather me thoughts.
Knightwing64 - looks new, but maybe an idiot. Leaning scum because of lack of engagement.
Okay, first of all 🖕I’m not a idiot.
Secondly, I have been posting at a consistent rate. I’m juggling numerous other games and various RL things so forgive me if I can’t post every 5 minutes like you can.
3: Just a afterword, but how are you going to call me sus for “lack of engagement” but you gloss over the fact NJW has barely posted at all? Suspect.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 11, 2022, 09:14:26 pm
Which is to say that if two kills happen during the night, Egan's miller-weird-thing can tell us which was the mafia kill, assuming that Egan isn't scum. Which isn't a fair assumption to make with no backup.I mentioned tracking powers before, they show as me targeting whoever died.
Interesting. I just want to highlight this statement. I'm not sure how I feel about it alignment-wise, but I feel it's important to remember.
Or, in a more potentially useful case, that if Egan's ability does something verifiable to a player not hit by the scum kill, and we have a tracker on Egan, we can use that to prove the veracity of their auto?
Actually, question.
Egan:
What happens if someone watches the player you actually targeted, when that player is not the one hit by the mafiakill?
Player A uses Watch, which lets them learn who targeted their target, on player B.
The mafia kill player C, and you, Egan, use your ability on player B.
Does your action show up on A's investigative results?
Post by: Shakerag on July 11, 2022, 09:18:55 pm
Knightwing64:
Okay, first of all 🖕I’m not a idiot.1: That has yet to be determined.
Secondly, I have been posting at a consistent rate. I’m juggling numerous other games and various RL things so forgive me if I can’t post every 5 minutes like you can.
3: Just a afterword, but how are you going to call me sus for “lack of engagement” but you gloss over the fact NJW has barely posted at all? Suspect.
2: Perhaps valid.
3: I did not gloss over NJW. I stated they have only posted twice. But perhaps you are correct. I should say both you and NJW are lacking in engagement.
Post by: Shakerag on July 11, 2022, 09:27:19 pm
3: Just a afterword, but how are you going to call me sus for “lack of engagement” but you gloss over the fact NJW has barely posted at all? Suspect.
And, to clarify. Engagement is not necessarily a measurement of how often you post, but the quality of said posts.
You're doing a lot of responding and waiting, but not being the initiator of questions/threads of discussion. That is why I say you lack "engagement".
Post by: Egan_BW on July 11, 2022, 09:43:22 pm
Egan:
What happens if someone watches the player you actually targeted, when that player is not the one hit by the mafiakill?
Player A uses Watch, which lets them learn who targeted their target, on player B.
The mafia kill player C, and you, Egan, use your ability on player B.
Does your action show up on A's investigative results?
My auto lists Inspection actions, Survey actions, and Track actions. I think that in this case Watching someone who is not me to see who targets them doesn't interact with my auto at all. So I would show up to A, having acted upon B.
...Perhaps I should mention that I don't have any targeted abilities to test that with. Presumably if I get Surveyed while doing nothing I still show up as having done the mafiakill despite having done nothing.
You never followed up on this; why?
I picked a BYOR which could have very reasonably been expected to make my life difficult, hence why I'm omega-miller. if you wanna feel sorry for me being miller, don't.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 12, 2022, 12:43:01 am
Is Knightwing, perhaps, mafia???
Spoiler: Knightwing's Posts This Game (click to show/hide)
Are... Knightwing and Max acting the exact same way? Statements, no questions. Not committing to a position whenever possible. Deflecting attention? Meanwhile Knightwing is backing up Max.
To be clear, I wouldn't use this as evidence for a more experienced player (sorry Knightwing) but it's a little... buddying-like. Like someone who doesn't know how to play scum latching onto their partner.
This could actually be the scumteam.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 12, 2022, 01:23:26 am
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 01:24:51 am
Jim and Euche have apparently joined a spectator chat on us. Since they're in a chat together, they're informal scum and we should get 'em outta here.Egan: where did you get this information?
Lenglon: You asked the question, but what are your thoughts on "Shakerag vs Egan"? Also are you still comfortable with your earlier Max vote?To me your fight was mostly show and little substance. It boiled down to Egan making an extraordinary miller claim, and you doubting the veracity of said claim. It was very useful for me though because it was flashy and I could observe the reactions of those around you to it, and to see who got engaged in it and why. From my perspective, Egan looked slightly towny for the miller claim, but even more so scummy because of the extreme and extraordinary nature of that miller claim, Egan's reactions to being pressed were reasonable however, so overall Egan came out about null. You looked like annoyed town to me, pressing a problem you saw but not building towards a lynch case, and came out looking more towny for it. I felt no need to be involved, and didn't think either of you deserved my vote for it.
As for if I'm still comfortable with my Max vote. Actually I'm not. My case still stands, but having learned that this really is fairly standard behavior from him I think it's not as strong as I thought it was when I made it. Additionally once pressed he did eventually get more involved and engaged. Logically, he's scum for sure, his actions and reactions were straight-up-textbook examples of scum behavior. Emotionally however, I can buy what he's selling, and have him at about null. So I'm leaving my vote on him, but have no intent to press him further, instead seeing what happens when I let off the pressure. I do still think he's the best one to lynch at this particular moment, but am currently open to swapping to policy-lynches or other cases if it seems appropriate.
Everyone: I'd like all anti-inspect claims out here on the table please. Miller claims, inspection block claims, whatever they may be, could anyone that has an anti-inspection mechanic of any kind (role, action, flavor, I do not care.) please speak up now so it won't be a viable claim for scum later. We've gone far enough into D1 for any gambits you wanted to play about how you reveal that stuff to have played out. Get them out here now please.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 12, 2022, 01:32:03 am
Meph's discord.Jim and Euche have apparently joined a spectator chat on us. Since they're in a chat together, they're informal scum and we should get 'em outta here.Egan: where did you get this information?
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 01:49:45 am
Knightwing, I do agree that the question was a stupid one, but I asked it anyway because you had made a self-contradictory claim. Please explain at length what you think of Tric, their meta, their behavior, and if they are scummy or not.Knightwing You have ignored this question, then deflected from answering it, and then ignored it once again. Answer the question.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 12, 2022, 07:29:37 am
Knightwing, I do agree that the question was a stupid one, but I asked it anyway because you had made a self-contradictory claim. Please explain at length what you think of Tric, their meta, their behavior, and if they are scummy or not.Knightwing You have ignored this question, then deflected from answering it, and then ignored it once again. Answer the question.
:-\
I think Tric is town, they act scummy as town and they act like a town when scum. There is literally nothing else to say. I already told you what I thought about Tric and you keep repeating the same damn question over and over again.
What do you think about Egans meta? Their behavior, and if they are scum or not. I legitimately don’t trust you anymore lmao
Post by: Mamobo on July 12, 2022, 08:31:37 am
------------------------
Maximum Spin - 3 - NJW2000* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389090#msg8389090), Lenglon* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389129#msg8389129), TricMagic* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389271#msg8389271),
TricMagic - 1 - Shakerag* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389388#msg8389388),
Egan_BW - 0 -
FallacyofUrist - 0 -
Knightwing64 - 0 -
Lenglon - 0 -
Lidku - 0 -
NJW2000 - 0 -
Shakerag - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 5 - Egan_BW* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389247#msg8389247), FallacyofUrist* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389292#msg8389292), Knightwing64, Lidku, Maximum Spin* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389377#msg8389377),
5 to Hammer. Day ends on July 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (~35 hours remaining).
Post by: NJW2000 on July 12, 2022, 08:55:01 am
For me? My action would show up as targeting Max in that scenario, assuming I wasn't redirected or some other shenaniganery.
My actions show up as mafiakill actions, but their apparent targeting is not modified from what it actually is.
Now this is WEIRD. Because the same does not seem to be true of Egan. See:
Ah in that case I'm like, omega miller. Inspects show me as mafia, surveys show my action as mafiakill, and tracking shows me as visiting whoever was killed.Shakerag - Please explain Miller Theory regarding D1 claims.
Oh I just realized I missed that. I stick by the old (relative to this subforum) rules that you always claim miller ASAP. To do otherwise is to invite doubt.
So there are different Omega-millers in play?
Ho hum. I find that hard to believe. Also, have a look through Fal and EgAns early interactions. They’re just a tad weird. At the very least, I think FoU is lying here.
Anything to say for yourself, FallacyOfUrist?
Post by: NJW2000 on July 12, 2022, 08:59:36 am
Some other thoughts:
Sorry for lack of activity and poor formatting, pfp.
Failure to tell when someone is being facetious is a strong scumtell for me - especially if the player isn’t a weak newbie or too egoistic to read other player’s posts. You’re neither, and don’t come across as drunk here. I responded to a joke with a joke, and you decided to be serious about it. Explain.More people voting != stronger case. That just means you have more people voting on flimsy reasons which looks bandwagon-y. A stronger case is made by providing additional (and good) reasons to vote someone.NJW2000 - Why should or shouldn't I vote Shakerag after the incredible, absolutely amazing, case that FoU just made?It's a weak case, so I think more people should vote Shakerag, to make the case stronger.
Max is actually irritated with Lenglon, or appears to be. Unusual deviation from his standard tone… he likes explaining his D1 style, or comes across that way at least, in other games.
Thanks for not hammering him while I was away though… I’d rather find scum than policy vote max :P.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 12, 2022, 09:34:48 am
Max is actually irritated with Lenglon, or appears to be. Unusual deviation from his standard tone… he likes explaining his D1 style, or comes across that way at least, in other games.I really was. It was unusual for me, yes. I did point that out in a later post too, so I want to be clear that I'm acknowledging it.
My temper was short yesterday morning. I'd been sick, and on top of that my room was really hot, and it just kind of made me more irritable than usual. Later in the day I put up a passive cooler and fan and then almost immediately felt normal again. I really don't like when my mood is that changeable, I usually try to keep things from leaking into my behavior like that, but I guess it was just a bad day for me. :-\
Anyway. It's not really important anymore, but I felt like I should explain.
I agree with this interpretation, but doesn't it make more sense if Egan is the "suspicious one"? Fallacy is really only claiming... what's the word for someone who can find out what action you used? Let me check.For me? My action would show up as targeting Max in that scenario, assuming I wasn't redirected or some other shenaniganery.
My actions show up as mafiakill actions, but their apparent targeting is not modified from what it actually is.
Now this is WEIRD. Because the same does not seem to be true of Egan. See:Ah in that case I'm like, omega miller. Inspects show me as mafia, surveys show my action as mafiakill, and tracking shows me as visiting whoever was killed.Shakerag - Please explain Miller Theory regarding D1 claims.
Oh I just realized I missed that. I stick by the old (relative to this subforum) rules that you always claim miller ASAP. To do otherwise is to invite doubt.
So there are different Omega-millers in play?
Ho hum. I find that hard to believe. Also, have a look through Fal and EgAns early interactions. They’re just a tad weird. At the very least, I think FoU is lying here.
Anything to say for yourself, FallacyOfUrist?
Okay, Fallacy is really only claiming to be a Following Miller, while Egan is claiming to be every kind of miller - Fallacy's claim would thus be provable if he is watched targeting someone who doesn't die, or even just inspected, while Egan is supposedly totally indistinguishable from scum and may honestly be a valid policy lynch.
Now, to be sure, Fallacy could be using this to build an excuse if he is later tracked to the kill target, but I think it's a more... open claim, if that makes sense. More open to resolution.
Oh, almost missed this.
Everyone: I'd like all anti-inspect claims out here on the table please. Miller claims, inspection block claims, whatever they may be, could anyone that has an anti-inspection mechanic of any kind (role, action, flavor, I do not care.) please speak up now so it won't be a viable claim for scum later. We've gone far enough into D1 for any gambits you wanted to play about how you reveal that stuff to have played out. Get them out here now please.Fine. I expect to be untargetable tonight. I was going to tell everyone before day end, so might as well do it now. I am sort of like a kind of commuter. I will not go into further detail until the future.
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 10:42:19 am
I keep asking the same question because you aren't giving a satisfactory answer, and still haven't. However, I don't think this is intentional on your part, which is why I'm not threatening to vote you over it or anything like that, and am instead repeating myself at you (remember that this is basically an RVS question, and that the main reason it's being pressed is your failure to give a satisfactory answer, not the question itself). The problem here is that "scummy" and "townie" are fairly vague terms at the end of the day, and the way you've been answering this question comes across as self-contradictory and meaningless. let me borrow an example of a satisfactory answer to this kind of question from myself of yesteryear:Knightwing, I do agree that the question was a stupid one, but I asked it anyway because you had made a self-contradictory claim. Please explain at length what you think of Tric, their meta, their behavior, and if they are scummy or not.Knightwing You have ignored this question, then deflected from answering it, and then ignored it once again. Answer the question.
:-\
I think Tric is town, they act scummy as town and they act like a town when scum. There is literally nothing else to say. I already told you what I thought about Tric and you keep repeating the same damn question over and over again.
Pozzai - my opinion of TBF's meta? well, first let me give you a heads up that I took something like a year and a half to 2 year break from mafia and only recently came back, so I might be out of tune with current metas on people that were newish back then - TBF, OSG, and TDS. also I myself am not the most experienced at mafia. I did my reading, and can do basic analysis and such decently well, so I might be projecting an 'old vet' attitude... but Im actually not, Ive been actually IN a low number of games, and this is only my 2nd BYOR.The important difference here between your current answer and my old one is specifics. I want you to list of which specific scummy behaviors you'd expect from town Tric and which ones you would not. If you honestly can't read Tric and to you they're a permanent null, then say so. If you think that scum-Tric gets energetic and engaged with the game while town-Tric gets bored and disengaged, say that. If you think Tric has certain patterns or strengths or weaknesses to their playstyle, then mention them. If you think certain scumtells should be ignored if Tric does them, say so. If you think certain scumtells should NOT be ignored, then say those too. Specifics. Details. That is what's important when explaining a self-contradictory statement like that. And you should expect to have to give that kind of more detailed explanation any time you make a self-contradictory statement.
Having said that, my opinion of TBF's meta is that hes shortsighted but energetic. Hes useful early on because his energy generates activity but the later in the game it gets the more he mostly generates white noise. His analysis is lackluster and he doesnt read into peoples posts deeply enough to make emotional reads either. He is pretty much impossible to tell alignment of because his town meta is nonfunctional as town, so hes on my standing list to just lynch on general principal if I dont have anyone better to lynch - hes a permanant nullread. He also has a tendency to bandwagon as both town and scum, and will, again as both, push weak cases with lots of vitriol, generally making him an easy lynch for the scumteam, so a number of vets around here treat pushing a case on him similar to pushing a case on an idle player - not a problem in itself but doesnt generate *real* activity and if done without anything else then it counts as active-lurking.
Knightwing: Please explain your self-contradictory view of Tric's meta.
What do you think about Egans meta? Their behavior, and if they are scum or not. I legitimately don’t trust you anymore lmaoI haven't played mafia with Egan before, so my opinion of Egan's meta is going to be entirely based on their personality outside of mafia, which is not the best source of reads. What I am able to pull in from these outside sources is: Egan is comfortable with large mechanically complex systems, so I am expecting a strong nightgame from Egan. Egan has trouble taking a middle-ground approach to caution vs recklessness, tending to be cautious until some form of event horizon is reached, at which point they'll go all-in and throw self-preservation to the wind. Egan doesn't have super-resilient emotional defenses, and so I expect them to likely feel more heavily pressured than they actually are when a case is presented against them, and when pressured they tend to close themselves off, which means that while under threat they probably won't build good reads. Egan however is actually very insightful into other people's motivations and intent when calm, so I suspect that if they aren't pressed and threatened they'll have really good insight for us, which if it does not show up even while they're not pressured or threatened, I will consider mildly suspicious, but not super-suspicious because, again, I haven't seen Egan play mafia, and so they might have issues translating their talents elsewhere over to here.
Post by: NJW2000 on July 12, 2022, 11:07:15 am
I assume you calling Egan the quote unquote suspicious one implies you think this makes scum!egan town!FoU more likely than vice versa.
So you think scum!Egan might claim to be a very unusual miller in a game where town!FoU is actually a very similar kind of miller, while unless Egan has an extraordinary day-cop as mafia, they have no way of knowing FoU had that role?
That ascribes a level of luck indistinguishable from precognition to Egans play.
I don’t get it. How could you want Egan over FoU under these circumstances?
I need to see an explanation for this. I know from other games that a lot of your town D1 is about forming conditional judgements about alignment… this is not a vote I’d expect from you.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 12, 2022, 11:37:10 am
So you think scum!Egan might claim to be a very unusual miller in a game where town!FoU is actually a very similar kind of miller, while unless Egan has an extraordinary day-cop as mafia, they have no way of knowing FoU had that role?I don't really agree with this characterization. I wouldn't even describe what Egan is claiming as "a very unusual miller" - he's just claiming to be in all ways indistinguishable from scum. I don't think it's implausible that a scum Egan might claim this, and then happen to be backed up by the existence of a real miller, by luck. I also wouldn't say that FoU is claiming to be a "very similar kind of miller". Any kind of miller claim would read as "very similar" to Egan's claim because Egan's claiming that everything would read scum for him. So to put it like this, your argument would apply exactly the same way even if Fallacy hypothetically claimed Regular Miller, or Tracking Miller. Furthermore, of all the possible fake miller claims, this one (Following Miller) would be a really weird choice! Followers are somewhat rare to begin with, in my experience, and this would only be workable as a fakeclaim if his action isn't confirmable in any other way - if he gets inspected or followed, or his target gets watched, we'd (barring other interference) know whether he lied. It's not something that I think even a Scum Fallacy, who is admittedly a weirdo, would jump to as the first choice.
That ascribes a level of luck indistinguishable from precognition to Egans play.
I don’t get it. How could you want Egan over FoU under these circumstances?
I need to see an explanation for this. I know from other games that a lot of your town D1 is about forming conditional judgements about alignment… this is not a vote I’d expect from you.
I'm definitely not saying I think Fallacy is town, or even necessarily more likely to be town than Egan in general. (Although, after having written the preceding paragraph, I think he's town more than I did.) But I think that your argument just works better as an argument for lynching Egan, at least partly because there's no other way to rule him out.
I also think you're getting too wrapped up in the fact that Fallacy claimed second, but again, if you look closely, Egan's claim in no way predicts Fallacy's any more than it would predict any other miller claim, since it applies to all possible facets of looking like mafia. If you want me to think that Egan was unusually prescient for including "actions look like mafiakills to a follower", then you'd have to argue that a mafia Egan would "normally" have forgotten that part while listing all the ways to look like scum, and I do not believe that to be the case.
I also think your objection isn't very well-thought-out and looks a little chainsaw-shaped.
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 11:43:05 am
Failure to tell when someone is being facetious is a strong scumtell for me - especially if the player isn’t a weak newbie or too egoistic to read other player’s posts. You’re neither, and don’t come across as drunk here. I responded to a joke with a joke, and you decided to be serious about it. ExplainMore people voting != stronger case. That just means you have more people voting on flimsy reasons which looks bandwagon-y. A stronger case is made by providing additional (and good) reasons to vote someone.NJW2000 - Why should or shouldn't I vote Shakerag after the incredible, absolutely amazing, case that FoU just made?It's a weak case, so I think more people should vote Shakerag, to make the case stronger.
*shrug* I thought you were being serious. Sue me for being autistic then.
Post by: NJW2000 on July 12, 2022, 01:10:14 pm
You’re pushing the idea that Egan is the elim before FoU when if Egan is fake claiming, FoU almost definitely is but not vice Versa. In fact, you weakly attacked me for objecting to that. This does not look good for you.
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 01:18:23 pm
if Egan is fake claiming, FoU almost definitely is but not vice Versa.NJW: I firmly disagree with this. Please justify this assertion.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 12, 2022, 01:23:37 pm
MaximumSpin: do you seriously believe there is anything like a reasonable chance of someone making a fakeclaim of miller + unusual extra action-related miller characteristics in a game in which such a role actually existed? Because that’s what you’re telling us.YES, when the fakeclaim is "everything that could possibly be millerized".
This is what actually happened:
Egan: "I look like scum in every possible way, fully exhausting millerspace."
Fallacy: "Interesting, I also look like scum, but only in one particular, fairly uncommon way."
You: "THIS IS TOO MUCH OF A COINCIDENCE TO BE TRUE."
Your entire argument makes no sense. Seriously, think about it. You're acting like Egan claimed specifically the same kind of millerness as Fallacy, but that's not what happened. Egan claimed to be a miller in all possible ways, so obviously it would include the same way that Fallacy claimed. It would be more of a weird coincidence if he specifically skipped the kind Fallacy would later claim!
Post by: NJW2000 on July 12, 2022, 01:26:56 pm
Because if Egan is fakeclaiming and FoU isn’t, Egan just claimed a highly unusual role, one I’ve never seen or even heard of, and something more similar than any other role I’ve seen just happened to exist in the game. It’s an astonishingly unlikely event. When there is a much more likely explanation involving FoU fakeclaiming or neither fakeclaiming, we are not entitled to accept the ridiculously unlikely explanation as plausible.if Egan is fake claiming, FoU almost definitely is but not vice Versa.NJW: I firmly disagree with this. Please justify this assertion.
I mean, all Egans posts so far could have been ones he was forced to make by a post restriction. It’s an extremely unlikely explanation, so I reject it.
Has anyone ever seen the “I appear to have done the mafia kill” role before? I think it’s a very nonstandard miller-like role
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 12, 2022, 01:34:01 pm
If anything, Egan's role is more similar to mine than to Fallacy's or any other miller. Egan gives a "maximally mafia-like result" for all kinds of inspection, while I would give "no result". Is that an unreasonable coincidence?
Has anyone ever seen the “I appear to have done the mafia kill” role before? I think it’s a very nonstandard miller-like roleI'd like to add that Fallacy did not claim that he "appear[s] to have done the mafia kill". He claimed that his actions will appear to be kill actions, such as to a Follower. That's not really common, but then Followers aren't really common. I don't think it's in any way unreasonable as a kind of miller in a game where Followers exist (which they might here).
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 12, 2022, 01:38:37 pm
Imagine that the same sequence of events happened, with Egan claiming the same role, but Fallacy claimed to be a normal alignment miller instead.
Egan's claim also covers being a normal alignment miller. Would you make this same argument in that case?
Fallacy's role cannot possibly change the probability of Egan's exact same claim being true.
Post by: NJW2000 on July 12, 2022, 02:23:00 pm
I don't care if Egan claimed all of specialised-miller-space, they're rare enough we're entitled to rule out Egan making an improbably good guess that the game has specialised millers and going all-out with a D1 claim.
This isn't a huge point, but your reaction, and aggressive defence of FoU, is significant. I also don't want to elim Egan before FoU, because it would not be reasonable.
You misrepresent me here. I simply claim that the event of Egan guessing there were specialised millers for a D1 miller fake claim should be has such low enough epistemic probability that we ought to discount it, and consider the three other options above.
This is what actually happened:
Egan: "I look like scum in every possible way, fully exhausting millerspace."
Fallacy: "Interesting, I also look like scum, but only in one particular, fairly uncommon way."
You: "THIS IS TOO MUCH OF A COINCIDENCE TO BE TRUE."
*shrug* I thought you were being serious. Sue me for being autistic then.
It's a weak case, so I think more people should vote Shakerag, to make the case stronger.
As you can see, I was genuinely posting nonsense, and you responded by calmly explaining that reasons make a case stronger. You come across as not wanting to draw ire, and more concerned that people not vote you than interested in what people are saying. Town want to understand what's going on, mafia just want to survive.
I'm going to assume the autism thing is a joke.
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 02:45:47 pm
I don't care if Egan claimed all of specialised-miller-space, they're rare enough we're entitled to rule out Egan making an improbably good guess that the game has specialised millers and going all-out with a D1 claim.I don't accept this. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie)
and I'm not convinced that you accept it either.
NJW: On what basis are you assuming Egan's extraordinary claim's extraordinary nature implies the truth of said extraordinary claim?
Post by: Lidku on July 12, 2022, 03:08:31 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 03:20:36 pm
So to summarize the current discussion: everyone is trying to discern of Egan's legitimacy of being a Miller or not?Not quite, but that's a reasonable misunderstanding. If Egan were the one actually being scrutinized then Egan would be the one being questioned, this is more about NJW and FoU.
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 03:28:52 pm
Post by: Lidku on July 12, 2022, 04:28:51 pm
come to think of it, Lidku, I don't think anyone has really engaged with you today so far. How do you feel about that? Also, if you could get an investigate result on someone as a bonus action tonight, who would you pick? And if you had to take a vigi shot RIGHT NOW, who would you shoot with it?
For an investigation action, I would choose between either Egan, TricMagic, and admittedly... you.
You, because I feel like you're being a tad-bit aggressive for D1. Almost like you're trying hard to be considered Town with your constant activity and trying to grasp at things to nail who you suspect as Mafia.. an attempt to detract suspicion from yourself, perhaps?
TricMagic because he has been silent lately and he is usually more active than this. Though again, like I've broached before, it all could be IRL activities consuming up his time.
Egan, as a means to really discern of what they're saying about their "Miller" ability being true. But apparently the whole point of a "Miller" automatically typecasts the user as Mafia, no matter what? Then it becomes extremely hard to gauge whether or not Egan TRULY is either Mafia and Town (which is, I believe, is what everyone has been arguing these past pages.. I just realized we're still on D1, but at least somewhat half-up to the page number of the previous BYOR game :o).
Now, as for what I would do if I had a vigilante ability: I would save it for until I at least highly suspect someone. Doing the wrong the kill + a lynch vote killing a Town and not a Mafia member + the decided Mafia kill would devastate Town, bringing us way closer to a loss in one Day/Night. If I had such an ability, I would never disclose it and save it for at least N2 or N3 (if I was still alive, that is) for someone I highly suspected.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 12, 2022, 04:50:57 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 12, 2022, 05:09:15 pm
My auto lists Inspection actions, Survey actions, and Track actions. I think that in this case Watching someone who is not me to see who targets them doesn't interact with my auto at all. So I would show up to A, having acted upon B.While I'm not sure if figuring out Egan's unique brand of shenanigans should be our highest priority, I do need to remind everyone that Egan has also claimed not having any targeted abilities. That seems relevant.
...Perhaps I should mention that I don't have any targeted abilities to test that with. Presumably if I get Surveyed while doing nothing I still show up as having done the mafiakill despite having done nothing.
I mean, it could be the single most audacious scumclaim I have ever seen. That's worth considering too.
I'm going to blatantly rolefish here and ask Egan if there's any way they can prove they had an effect on the Night that wasn't the mafiakill during a Night when the mafiakill occurs? Because that's probably the key to unraveling this mystery.
Let me put it like this.Unfortunately roles are not random. Don't Outguess The Mod is a real factor. Basically... would webadict create a setup where both my claim and Egan's are true? Unfortunately, as much as this is something we can speculate on, it is pure and total WIFOM. So roles are not randomly created, but they are created by an inscrutable penguin.
Imagine that the same sequence of events happened, with Egan claiming the same role, but Fallacy claimed to be a normal alignment miller instead.
Egan's claim also covers being a normal alignment miller. Would you make this same argument in that case?
Fallacy's role cannot possibly change the probability of Egan's exact same claim being true.
It might be more worth looking into Egan's non-miller claim behavior. Have they been acting town, aside from whatever the heck this is?
... we can place votes for behavior reasons too, folks.
I appreciate how Maximum Spin is engaging more with what's going on. I suppose he'd say 'well now there's data to work with', and that's not a bad argument to put forwards. It's still reactionary and opportunistic, though.
So there are different Omega-millers in play?It's already been stated, but I'm nowhere near an Omega-miller. My actions appear to be mafiakills, and that's it. There's no track shenanigans, no watch shenanigans, no alignment warping shenanigans. It's worth reiterating just once.
Ho hum. I find that hard to believe. Also, have a look through Fal and EgAns early interactions. They’re just a tad weird. At the very least, I think FoU is lying here.
Anything to say for yourself, FallacyOfUrist?
I do want to know what you mean by 'a tad weird', NJW2000. This is explicitly a pressure vote. I'm as curious about you as you're curious about me - I'm curious if you can supply the detail you claim to have seen.
Max is actually irritated with Lenglon, or appears to be. Unusual deviation from his standard tone… he likes explaining his D1 style, or comes across that way at least, in other games.I really was. It was unusual for me, yes. I did point that out in a later post too, so I want to be clear that I'm acknowledging it.
[1] My temper was short yesterday morning. I'd been sick, and on top of that my room was really hot, and it just kind of made me more irritable than usual. Later in the day I put up a passive cooler and fan and then almost immediately felt normal again. I really don't like when my mood is that changeable, I usually try to keep things from leaking into my behavior like that, but I guess it was just a bad day for me. :-\
Anyway. It's not really important anymore, but I felt like I should explain.
Oh, almost missed this.Everyone: I'd like all anti-inspect claims out here on the table please. Miller claims, inspection block claims, whatever they may be, could anyone that has an anti-inspection mechanic of any kind (role, action, flavor, I do not care.) please speak up now so it won't be a viable claim for scum later. We've gone far enough into D1 for any gambits you wanted to play about how you reveal that stuff to have played out. Get them out here now please.[2] Fine. I expect to be untargetable tonight. I was going to tell everyone before day end, so might as well do it now. I am sort of like a kind of commuter. I will not go into further detail until the future.
[1] Valid. It's understandable, mate. Hope things improve.
[2] Well if there's one thing that it's not valid for town to inquire about before it becomes relevant, it's defense-mechanism abilities. That you decided to claim seems both odd and somewhat townie. It's not in any way related to miller-stuff - unless it is? You don't have to answer that.
I'm guessing you claimed it because it'll interfere with investigations on you.
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 07:01:22 pm
I'm going to assume the autism thing is a joke.
Bruh. I am literally autistic. You absolute muppet. Honestly with as how thick you come across I wonder if you're on the spectrum as well.
Clearly I will need much more alcohol tonight before continuing.
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 07:17:54 pm
I feel like Egan’s claim is kinda weird, but I think it could be true. Or it could be a incredibly daring attempt to appear so obviously scummy so that you aren’t seen as scummyfor the love of.
Knightwing: Why do you insist on making me have to repeat myself over and and over over before you will actually answer the world's most basic questions you brainless muppet? Do you not have any follow-up to what you asked me in your last post? Do you have some kind of reading deficiency? Is the only reason you won't answer the world's most basic questions because you haven't been voted for it yet? Really? Got it Knightwing you have successfully frustrated me enough to get voted out of simple irritation at your flat refusal to have anything to do with actually progressing the game. Fix your shit you fucking dumbass.
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2022, 07:20:59 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 07:24:45 pm
I see a loooot of hostility right now. Let's all take 2 chill pills and a deep breath.
Honey, this is not me being hostile. I'm not posting in all caps yet.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 12, 2022, 07:25:01 pm
You absolute muppet.
you brainless muppet?...what?
I guess I'm just going to assume that Lenglon just read Shakerag saying that and therefore had the word in mind, because otherwise that's weird as hell.
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 07:25:27 pm
I like your answer about the investigate question, thank you, but you didn't actually answer the other two. I can understand that you might have not realized I did actually want you to say what your thoughts were about having not had anyone engage with you up to that point, but I am actually quite curious what your thoughts are about that.come to think of it, Lidku, I don't think anyone has really engaged with you today so far. How do you feel about that? Also, if you could get an investigate result on someone as a bonus action tonight, who would you pick? And if you had to take a vigi shot RIGHT NOW, who would you shoot with it?
For an investigation action, I would choose between either Egan, TricMagic, and admittedly... you.
You, because I feel like you're being a tad-bit aggressive for D1. Almost like you're trying hard to be considered Town with your constant activity and trying to grasp at things to nail who you suspect as Mafia.. an attempt to detract suspicion from yourself, perhaps?
TricMagic because he has been silent lately and he is usually more active than this. Though again, like I've broached before, it all could be IRL activities consuming up his time.
Egan, as a means to really discern of what they're saying about their "Miller" ability being true. But apparently the whole point of a "Miller" automatically typecasts the user as Mafia, no matter what? Then it becomes extremely hard to gauge whether or not Egan TRULY is either Mafia and Town (which is, I believe, is what everyone has been arguing these past pages.. I just realized we're still on D1, but at least somewhat half-up to the page number of the previous BYOR game :o).
Now, as for what I would do if I had a vigilante ability: I would save it for until I at least highly suspect someone. Doing the wrong the kill + a lynch vote killing a Town and not a Mafia member + the decided Mafia kill would devastate Town, bringing us way closer to a loss in one Day/Night. If I had such an ability, I would never disclose it and save it for at least N2 or N3 (if I was still alive, that is) for someone I highly suspected.
also, I put the RIGHT NOW in all caps about the vigi shot because I was already assuming that you'd give the answer you just gave if I didn't. I want to know who you would shoot RIGHT NOW if you were FORCED to take the shot RIGHT NOW.
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2022, 07:25:53 pm
Then tone it down to extremely nice, deary. :)I see a loooot of hostility right now. Let's all take 2 chill pills and a deep breath.
Honey, this is not me being hostile. I'm not posting in all caps yet.
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 07:26:56 pm
Then tone it down to extremely nice, deary. :)I see a loooot of hostility right now. Let's all take 2 chill pills and a deep breath.
Honey, this is not me being hostile. I'm not posting in all caps yet.
I will consider your request but I cannot guarantee anything.
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 07:28:25 pm
<.<You absolute muppet.you brainless muppet?...what?
I guess I'm just going to assume that Lenglon just read Shakerag saying that and therefore had the word in mind, because otherwise that's weird as hell.
>.>
I see a loooot of hostility right now. Let's all take 2 chill pills and a deep breath.apologies.
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 07:29:06 pm
You absolute muppet.you brainless muppet?...what?
I guess I'm just going to assume that Lenglon just read Shakerag saying that and therefore had the word in mind, because otherwise that's weird as hell.
That's literally the best thing you thought of posting right now? Max, webadict has requested that I tone it down but I -really- want to hurt your feelings presently.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 12, 2022, 07:30:59 pm
I feel like Egan’s claim is kinda weird, but I think it could be true. Or it could be a incredibly daring attempt to appear so obviously scummy so that you aren’t seen as scummyfor the love of.
Knightwing: Why do you insist on making me have to repeat myself over and and over over before you will actually answer the world's most basic questions you brainless muppet? Do you not have any follow-up to what you asked me in your last post? Do you have some kind of reading deficiency? Is the only reason you won't answer the world's most basic questions because you haven't been voted for it yet? Really? Got it Knightwing you have successfully frustrated me enough to get voted out of simple irritation at your flat refusal to have anything to do with actually progressing the game. Fix your shit you fucking dumbass.
👁👄👁
Frankly, I’m quite irritated right now. I have been nothing but nice and cordial to you but you decide to insult me because I don’t want to answer all 50 of your questions? Look, you post like once every ten mins, I don’t read all of your posts.
Just….
Ugh.
Post by: NJW2000 on July 12, 2022, 07:33:29 pm
On none, because I am not. The post before yours makes this clear Egan is only telling the truth in two of three plausible scenarios - and I don't necessarily think they're all equally likely. Like MaximumSpin, you misrepresented me. Kindly do not.I don't care if Egan claimed all of specialised-miller-space, they're rare enough we're entitled to rule out Egan making an improbably good guess that the game has specialised millers and going all-out with a D1 claim.I don't accept this. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie)
and I'm not convinced that you accept it either.
NJW: On what basis are you assuming Egan's extraordinary claim's extraordinary nature implies the truth of said extraordinary claim?
Reply to FoU's post here (http://):
FallacyofUrist: Why are you cursed to always be scum in webadict games? For that matter, why am I?This is absolutely something ER would post if the two of you were both scum, it's exactly the kind of wild joke they're into.
Dearest scumbuddy, don't call me out like that! We're supposed to be undercover -Tone seems off. Three different jokes suggest nervousness.
Which is to say that I am not always scum, because I am definitely totally a loyal Town scum hunter this time around.
And I bet you are too.
It's not the strongest argument for eliminating either of you right now though, so this isn't deeply important.
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 07:34:49 pm
👁👄👁Did you honestly think that ignoring the same ONE (and only one) question I've asked you over the course of the entire game six (now seven) times in a row wasn't going to get you voted?
Frankly, I’m quite irritated right now. I have been nothing but nice and cordial to you but you decide to insult me because I don’t want to answer all 50 of your questions? Look, you post like once every ten mins, I don’t read all of your posts.
Just….
Ugh.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 12, 2022, 07:36:58 pm
That's literally the best thing you thought of posting right now? Max, webadict has requested that I tone it down but I -really- want to hurt your feelings presently.I think it's worth speculating about muppet-based post restrictions.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 12, 2022, 07:38:07 pm
👁👄👁Did you honestly think that ignoring the same ONE (and only one) question I've asked you over the course of the entire game six (now seven) times in a row wasn't going to get you voted?
Frankly, I’m quite irritated right now. I have been nothing but nice and cordial to you but you decide to insult me because I don’t want to answer all 50 of your questions? Look, you post like once every ten mins, I don’t read all of your posts.
Just….
Ugh.
Okay. *breathes in
I have answered your self explanatory, dumbass question multiple times. I am not a expert mafia player, I don’t know Egan’s “meta” or their tells. Now, knowing that, can you please shut up? I’m actually begging you right now.
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 07:44:23 pm
That's literally the best thing you thought of posting right now? Max, webadict has requested that I tone it down but I -really- want to hurt your feelings presently.I think it's worth speculating about muppet-based post restrictions.
ಠ_ಠ
For the record I do not have a post restriction. I just like British slang.
I'll be busy for a bit and then I plan to review the day's posts from everyone.
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2022, 07:46:39 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 07:46:59 pm
NJW: There are four possibilities, not three:On none, because I am not. The post before yours makes this clear Egan is only telling the truth in two of three plausible scenarios - and I don't necessarily think they're all equally likely. Like MaximumSpin, you misrepresented me. Kindly do not.I don't care if Egan claimed all of specialised-miller-space, they're rare enough we're entitled to rule out Egan making an improbably good guess that the game has specialised millers and going all-out with a D1 claim.I don't accept this. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie)
and I'm not convinced that you accept it either.
NJW: On what basis are you assuming Egan's extraordinary claim's extraordinary nature implies the truth of said extraordinary claim?
1) Egan town FoU town. - possible, and not under dispute
2) Egan town FoU scum. - you are advocating for this
3) Egan scum FoU scum. - you have acknowledged this, and it's not under dispute.
4) Egan scum FoU town. - You are dismissing this for no reason, and your dismissal of this is the entire thing I'm pressing you on.
I'm not misrepresenting anything. You are dismissing out of hand option 4, and you have stated that your reason for doing so is that it is to aduacious to be true (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Refuge_in_Audacity). I consider this reason completely unacceptable.
Unlike you, I am not willing to assume that Egan is town if NJW is killed and flips town, the contrapositive of what you have been asserting. If you dismiss option 4, then such would be a logical necessity. I will not humor attempts to set up treating Egan as full-cleared by mafiakilling FoU.
Post by: Lidku on July 12, 2022, 07:47:48 pm
I like your answer about the investigate question, thank you, but you didn't actually answer the other two. I can understand that you might have not realized I did actually want you to say what your thoughts were about having not had anyone engage with you up to that point, but I am actually quite curious what your thoughts are about that.
also, I put the RIGHT NOW in all caps about the vigi shot because I was already assuming that you'd give the answer you just gave if I didn't. I want to know who you would shoot RIGHT NOW if you were FORCED to take the shot RIGHT NOW.
Why is nobody engaging me?
It's of course not possible to have a definitive answer for what other people are doing, but I assume it's because I might come off as town? I don't particularly know.
If I was forced to Vigilante shoot someone right now? I think it would have to be Egan.
I just don't like the sound of their disclosed "Miller" ability and the teetering edge on if we can truly believe they are either Town or Mafia... But again, this is a scenario in which I would be forced to use my Vigilante ability, as I've stated before; I generally would save it for someone I have a high certainty of suspecting.
Post by: NJW2000 on July 12, 2022, 07:48:16 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 12, 2022, 07:51:58 pm
There are no post restrictions in this game.Oh, good.
Not going to lie, I would flat out quit if I got a post restriction in a game (not counting reasonable exclusions of information, like "don't claim"). I can't stand that.
Anyway, as self-appointed god of Knightwing's meta, I do want to reiterate that Knightwing looks town. Getting mad at him isn't worth wasting the lynch.
Why is nobody engaging me?I know you were repeating the question, not actually asking this, but, since you asked, what do you think of TricMagic's meta in this game so far?
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 07:54:54 pm
Knightwing - when did I ask you anything about Egan? (hint: I didn't) Please actually read this post addressed to you. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389552#msg8389552)👁👄👁Did you honestly think that ignoring the same ONE (and only one) question I've asked you over the course of the entire game six (now seven) times in a row wasn't going to get you voted?
Frankly, I’m quite irritated right now. I have been nothing but nice and cordial to you but you decide to insult me because I don’t want to answer all 50 of your questions? Look, you post like once every ten mins, I don’t read all of your posts.
Just….
Ugh.
Okay. *breathes in
I have answered your self explanatory, dumbass question multiple times. I am not a expert mafia player, I don’t know Egan’s “meta” or their tells. Now, knowing that, can you please shut up? I’m actually begging you right now.
Post by: Mamobo on July 12, 2022, 07:56:01 pm
------------------------
Egan_BW - 1 - Maximum Spin* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389545#msg8389545),
FallacyofUrist - 1 - NJW2000* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389533#msg8389533),
Knightwing64 - 1 - Lenglon* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389719#msg8389719),
Maximum Spin - 1 - TricMagic* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389271#msg8389271),
NJW2000 - 1 - FallacyofUrist* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389664#msg8389664),
TricMagic - 1 - Shakerag* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389388#msg8389388),
Lenglon - 0 -
Lidku - 0 -
Shakerag - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 3 - Egan_BW* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389247#msg8389247), Knightwing64, Lidku,
5 to Hammer. Day ends on July 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (~24 hours remaining).
NOTE: In the event of a tie, the Mafia chooses the execution target.
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 07:57:40 pm
Lenglon: I mean, you seem to have words wrong there... I'll look through any edited version later, but sleeping now.Yeah, i accidently swapped NJW and FoU in the conclusion at one spot, here's the fixed version:
NJW: There are four possibilities, not three:
1) Egan town FoU town. - possible, and not under dispute
2) Egan town FoU scum. - you are advocating for this
3) Egan scum FoU scum. - you have acknowledged this, and it's not under dispute.
4) Egan scum FoU town. - You are dismissing this for no reason, and your dismissal of this is the entire thing I'm pressing you on.
I'm not misrepresenting anything. You are dismissing out of hand option 4, and you have stated that your reason for doing so is that it is to aduacious to be true (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Refuge_in_Audacity). I consider this reason completely unacceptable.
Unlike you, I am not willing to assume that Egan is town if FoU is killed and flips town, the contrapositive of what you have been asserting. If you dismiss option 4, then such would be a logical necessity. I will not humor attempts to set up treating Egan as full-cleared by mafiakilling FoU.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 12, 2022, 08:00:16 pm
Knightwing - when did I ask you anything about Egan? (hint: I didn't) Please actually read this post addressed to you. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389552#msg8389552)👁👄👁Did you honestly think that ignoring the same ONE (and only one) question I've asked you over the course of the entire game six (now seven) times in a row wasn't going to get you voted?
Frankly, I’m quite irritated right now. I have been nothing but nice and cordial to you but you decide to insult me because I don’t want to answer all 50 of your questions? Look, you post like once every ten mins, I don’t read all of your posts.
Just….
Ugh.
Okay. *breathes in
I have answered your self explanatory, dumbass question multiple times. I am not a expert mafia player, I don’t know Egan’s “meta” or their tells. Now, knowing that, can you please shut up? I’m actually begging you right now.
Okay, it was Tric then. I already told you what my answer was and why, I’m not dealing with you anymore.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 12, 2022, 08:06:50 pm
I'm going to blatantly rolefish here and ask Egan if there's any way they can prove they had an effect on the Night that wasn't the mafiakill during a Night when the mafiakill occurs? Because that's probably the key to unraveling this mystery.
Possibly, but it would be a disadvantage if I said it so stop rolefishing, scum~
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 08:07:17 pm
Okay, it was Tric then. I already told you what my answer was and why, I’m not dealing with you anymore.got it.
switching from pressure vote to policy lynch vote, In my opinion Knightwing should die, not only for his lurking behavior as documented kindly by FoU here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389427#msg8389427) but also for his flat refusal to engage with or read the posts of any of the game's participants. Even if he's town, he's not going to have any insights, present any cases, answer any questions, or generally do anything more than waste our space and time. If he doesn't want to play, we should oblige him and remove him from play.
Post by: Lidku on July 12, 2022, 08:09:32 pm
Why is nobody engaging me?I know you were repeating the question, not actually asking this, but, since you asked, what do you think of TricMagic's meta in this game so far?
TricMagic has been heavily silent... I've often put up some rationales that he maybe doing IRL things, but even with that as a factor, he should at least check in. If he is Mafia, then it wouldn't be tactically sound to be this quiet, as suspicions will be casted on you eventually for being so inactive. TricMagic usually is very talkative and a non-lurker.
I can't really tell what TricMagic is doing at all, but it's a SMIDGE (emphasis on smidge) suspect.
Post by: TricMagic on July 12, 2022, 08:11:22 pm
... or now I'd just move to No Lynch if possible, and recontextualize tomorrow.
Also, to your long ago question Lenglon, it was a pressure vote. But you pressing me on it shut me up. You got really agressive about people not answering your questions.
Ninja. To answer, today I worked out in the morning, then came back and moved
my mind forward a bit in an FEF. Followed by spending most of the day finishing a house in a minecraft server. Been a bit drained lately.
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 08:16:41 pm
This is very true, but I would prefer to lynch the active-lurker Knightwing over the passive-lurker Tricmagic, on the off-chance that Tric has a valid reason. After all, even if Tric doesn't come back, it's not like Knightwing is contributing any more than Tric is, and if Tric does come back we'll have more useful participation the moment they make a single post. Also, frankly, if Tric continues to be unable to post or act, they could end up force-replaced or modkilled, but Knightwing's active lurking does prevent that possible solution to his case.Why is nobody engaging me?I know you were repeating the question, not actually asking this, but, since you asked, what do you think of TricMagic's meta in this game so far?
TricMagic has been heavily silent... I've often put up some rationales that he maybe doing IRL things, but even with that as a factor, he should at least check in. If he is Mafia, then it wouldn't be tactically sound to be this quiet, as suspicions will be casted on you eventually for being so inactive. TricMagic usually is very talkative and a non-lurker.
I can't really tell what TricMagic is doing at all, but it's a SMIDGE (emphasis on smidge) suspect.
PPE: well there we go. Tric exists.
Post by: Lidku on July 12, 2022, 08:21:10 pm
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 12, 2022, 08:27:31 pm
Okay, it was Tric then. I already told you what my answer was and why, I’m not dealing with you anymore.got it.
switching from pressure vote to policy lynch vote, In my opinion Knightwing should die, not only for his lurking behavior as documented kindly by FoU here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389427#msg8389427) but also for his flat refusal to engage with or read the posts of any of the game's participants. Even if he's town, he's not going to have any insights, present any cases, answer any questions, or generally do anything more than waste our space and time. If he doesn't want to play, we should oblige him and remove him from play.
Well, that’s just untrue. You are the only person to directly ask me a question, I answered and have stated what I thought on my multiple occasions. It’s Day fucking 1. Forgive me for not having enough information for a stunning discovery.
Kindly fuck off. Okay, scratch the kindly, just fuck off.
Lenglon
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 12, 2022, 08:30:35 pm
I think you are a fucking muppet.
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 08:31:25 pm
No Lynch
AB-SO-LUTELY-FUCKING-NOT
D1 no lynch is always always always the worst thing you can do. I'd vote you twice if I could.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 12, 2022, 08:31:35 pm
Knightwing (1x vote if that's allowed please?) and Lidku: It appears that you haven't made any votes yet this day, according to Mamobo at least. Is there a reason for this? I believe it's a good idea to use votes as pressure.
I feel like I should argue that Egan scum + FOU town should be discounted somehow, but maybe that's just because I already know my alignment. Omega Miller is a kinda extraordinary claim, I'm not sure if I could have thought of it without at least scumbuddy help it requires at least going through Wuba's OP carefully and checking what kinds of information powers exist and I'm not that committed to this game.
I'd feel a little suspicious of FOU for maybe copying the tracker part of my power. Honestly, if he is scum I don't feel like getting him outta here immediately anyways, let a fellow cursed player have a little fun.
reads: somewhat spooked by Max, Fal, Knight and Lidku. Just feels, you know. Activity is a bit too high for me to really remember everything which has happened so I'm not sure if I can bring up a more intelligent analysis right now. Have my monke feels instead.
Post by: Lidku on July 12, 2022, 08:33:42 pm
In the words of yourself,
I think you are a fucking muppet.
Hey now, let's just all cool it here.
This is exactly why I believed that being so aggressive on D1 is not optimal. It just stokes up beginning tension when there is nothing truly to go off of yet.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 12, 2022, 08:34:28 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 08:34:34 pm
No Lynch
AB-SO-LUTELY-FUCKING-NOT
D1 no lynch is always always always the worst thing you can do. I'd vote you twice if I could.
*with a possible exception of bastard games, but this not one
Post by: Lidku on July 12, 2022, 08:38:16 pm
Knightwing (1x vote if that's allowed please?) and Lidku: It appears that you haven't made any votes yet this day, according to Mamobo at least. Is there a reason for this? I believe it's a good idea to use votes as pressure.
It's that I don't find anyone particularly suspicions at the moment. There is really no good option, but if I'm pressured to vote for someone, I'd guess it'd have to be between Lenglon and yourself. Lenglon because they're aggression is too high, and you, because I just found your claimed Miller ability too suspicious.. just chalk it up to a "monke brain" instinct.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 12, 2022, 08:38:40 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 12, 2022, 08:42:44 pm
Knightwing (1x vote if that's allowed please?) and Lidku: It appears that you haven't made any votes yet this day, according to Mamobo at least. Is there a reason for this? I believe it's a good idea to use votes as pressure.
It's that I don't find anyone particularly suspicions at the moment. There is really no good option, but if I'm pressured to vote for someone, I'd guess it'd have to be between Lenglon and yourself. Lenglon because they're aggression is too high, and you, because I just found your claimed Miller ability too suspicious.. just chalk it up to a "monke brain" instinct.
Do you think this is too aggressive to be town for Lenglon? She's exerting even pressure and not focusing on any one person to the exclusion on others. If that's scum behavior, it's bold and well-measured scum. This reads to me just like an experienced player getting back into town mode like riding a bike.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 12, 2022, 08:45:46 pm
Fuck me, what would her targeting look like?
Post by: Egan_BW on July 12, 2022, 08:47:35 pm
Post by: Lidku on July 12, 2022, 08:48:00 pm
Do you think this is too aggressive to be town for Lenglon? She's exerting even pressure and not focusing on any one person to the exclusion on others. If that's scum behavior, it's bold and well-measured scum. This reads to me just like an experienced player getting back into town mode like riding a bike.
It's something I broached before previously in the thread; the act of trying too hard to be Town could very well be a tactic to lower suspicions of said actor being Mafia. And "pressure voting" to me seems like flip-flops. That same Mafia tactic of constantly changing who you vote for was one of the key tells that me to correct suspect EuchreJack in the last BYOR game.
Post by: Lidku on July 12, 2022, 08:49:27 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 12, 2022, 08:51:29 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 08:54:04 pm
Lidku:
It's that I don't find anyone particularly suspicions at the moment. There is really no good option, but if I'm pressured to vote for someone, I'd guess it'd have to be between Lenglon and yourself. Lenglon because they're aggression is too high, and you, because I just found your claimed Miller ability too suspicious.. just chalk it up to a "monke brain" instinct.
From experience, scum absolutely loves to lynch (or NK) active players because active players sniff out scum. Are you nervous that Lenglon is so aggresive? If you were town you'd appreciate her levels of activity.
This is exactly why I believed that being so aggressive on D1 is not optimal. It just stokes up beginning tension when there is nothing truly to go off of yet.
And if everyone is passive on D1 we have nothing to go on. I'm not saying you're scum, but you might not have the right attitude. I will be watching you in the future.
Knightwing64:
Kindly fuck off. Okay, scratch the kindly, just fuck off.Oooh. Are you buckling under the pressure with an OMGUS? I still think you're pretty new so that might be a visceral response. But I think you're leaning more scum to me now.
Lenglon
Lenglon I don't think you're doing bad at all honestly. A tough aggressive, but fuck them I think it works, ultimately. You're generating posts and that is the #1 priority on D1.
Egan_BW: This is super meta shit, but statistically speaking I -believe- there are low odds of a double-voter being scum. This could be an exception, but I'll watch your future play with interest.
Maximum Spin:
Anyway, as self-appointed god of Knightwing's meta, I do want to reiterate that Knightwing looks town. Getting mad at him isn't worth wasting the lynch.There have people in this game with little confidence in your D1 play. Why are you confident that Knightwing64 looks town?
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 08:57:07 pm
Has Knightwing done anything particularly bad, other than glossing over your queries to them? How much support would making Knightwing the policy-vote even be?The important thing about it is that Knightwing is actively and intentionally refusing to participate in the scumhunting process. In such a case where a player is going out of their way to make regular posts but never have any input about the game (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Active_Lurking) then it's not a case like Tric's, where they're busy, but a case of scum hiding by not putting themselves out there to have their alignment and intentions determined. If we for the moment assume that Tric's lurking behavior is simply a act to hide being scum, then they're risking a modkill or force-replace for very little benefit, since they do have a spotlight on themselves for exactly this behavior. Knightwing's behavior does not risk this, and unlike Tric's, is unlike to improve when he gets less busy, since being busy isn't the thing keeping him from posting actual content, only his decision to refuse to do so is.
Well, that’s just untrue. You are the only person to directly ask me a question, I answered and have stated what I thought on my multiple occasions. It’s Day fucking 1. Forgive me for not having enough information for a stunning discovery.Knightwing - If I'm the only person to have asked you a question, then you have the time to actually answer it don't you? instead of either flat ignoring or deflecting like you have been doing? I'm not even asking you for a reads list, I'm asking you for a single meta read on a player you have played with before. This should be so easy to answer it's pathetic. And yet you won't do it. Not can't, wont. You have, over the entire day, been asked, in total, from everyone, ONE question. But apparently that's too hard for you. I'm not willing to accept that, and neither should anyone else be.
Kindly fuck off. Okay, scratch the kindly, just fuck off.
Lenglon
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 08:57:12 pm
Also, all "pressure voting" does is input stabs in the dark and just make Town jumpy against one another. I don't really see the effectiveness of it, considering how little D1 anyone can possibly go off of.
Scum can make mistakes and panic on D1. On later days it is absolutely worth to see who interacted with who on D1 and how they interacted. Also who they voted and why and when.
Statistically speaking, yes, town will almost likely be voted on D1 but that information can be useful in later days.
If you're passive on D1 that makes me think you don't want to stand out. And scum doesn't want to stand out.
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 08:59:42 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 12, 2022, 09:01:56 pm
You have, over the entire day, been asked, in total, from everyone, ONE question.
I asked one just now! :D
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 09:02:08 pm
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 12, 2022, 09:04:26 pm
I feel like Egan’s claim is kinda weird, but I think it could be true. Or it could be a incredibly daring attempt to appear so obviously scummy so that you aren’t seen as scummyfor the love of.
Knightwing: Why do you insist on making me have to repeat myself over and and over over before you will actually answer the world's most basic questions you brainless muppet? Do you not have any follow-up to what you asked me in your last post? Do you have some kind of reading deficiency? Is the only reason you won't answer the world's most basic questions because you haven't been voted for it yet? Really? Got it Knightwing you have successfully frustrated me enough to get voted out of simple irritation at your flat refusal to have anything to do with actually progressing the game. Fix your shit you fucking dumbass.
Apparently, I am a brainless dumbass muppet with a reading deficiency who needs to fix my shit because I don’t want to answer the same damn question 10 times.
I’m sorry I have nothing to add, I don’t have much to go on other then the fact I dislike you.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 12, 2022, 09:05:13 pm
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 12, 2022, 09:06:22 pm
Would you answer mine?
Yes, what’s your question?
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 09:07:06 pm
I’m not annoyed at Leng because of OMGUS, but because they are such a fucking asshole.I feel like Egan’s claim is kinda weird, but I think it could be true. Or it could be a incredibly daring attempt to appear so obviously scummy so that you aren’t seen as scummyfor the love of.
Knightwing: Why do you insist on making me have to repeat myself over and and over over before you will actually answer the world's most basic questions you brainless muppet? Do you not have any follow-up to what you asked me in your last post? Do you have some kind of reading deficiency? Is the only reason you won't answer the world's most basic questions because you haven't been voted for it yet? Really? Got it Knightwing you have successfully frustrated me enough to get voted out of simple irritation at your flat refusal to have anything to do with actually progressing the game. Fix your shit you fucking dumbass.
Apparently, I am a brainless dumbass muppet with a reading deficiency who needs to fix my shit because I don’t want to answer the same damn question 10 times.
I’m sorry I have nothing to add, I don’t have much to go on other then the fact I dislike you.
This is a good time to interject. Emotions can run high in these games, but I think everyone should -not- take what happens personally.
I see where you're coming from, so might be a good idea to just interact with other players for a minute and put Lenglon to the side.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 12, 2022, 09:08:42 pm
Knightwing is not a viable lynch target for me. Of currently voted people I'm not already voting for, I guess I'm most comfortable lynching... TricMagic, maybe Lenglon. I'd be open to suspecting Lidku over passive play, but I guess he should get some Noob Slack. Shakerag and Knightwing are town to me. Fallacy and NJW are both looking bad to me but seem mutually exclusive and I'm not sure which I should distrust. Then again, maybe that's the angle.
I... don't actually know why I'm voting Egan right now. I agree with what I SAID in the morning, but I don't know why I put a vote on it, I don't think it quite deserved that. I tend to be a little rash first thing in the morning. After the last several hours, he's definitely slid down my ranking of interest.
I do think Lenglon is being a dick. I don't know that I'd say that's lynchable in its own right outside some idea of a scum meta (like ToonyMan's), but I wouldn't call this normal town "aggression", and I do kind of want to get it out of the game.
I'm going to vote TricMagic for now, but I'm open to alternatives. Is anyone left not voting?
Maximum Spin:My Town Knightwing Radar is extremely effective, as webadict himself learned. Scum Knightwing is never this confident and direct; he tends to cover weakness with jokey disengagement. Like NJW accused Fallacy of doing before. I realize it's hard to take my word for it, but I really don't think he's learned to fake his town persona this well yet.Anyway, as self-appointed god of Knightwing's meta, I do want to reiterate that Knightwing looks town. Getting mad at him isn't worth wasting the lynch.There have people in this game with little confidence in your D1 play. Why are you confident that Knightwing64 looks town?
... Did Lidku ever answer me about Tric? I'm sure I read all his posts, but I may have forgotten the actual answer if he did. I admit he IS under my radar at the moment because of that low engagement. He needs to post more.
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2022, 09:10:59 pm
The ice is thin, and we don't need to get more heated and melt it.
Pills of the chillest variety.
One more warning, and I'm issuing timeouts.
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 09:11:58 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 09:12:02 pm
Lenglon I'm pretty sure, as far as I know, Knightwing64 is fairly new to this subforum. I think you might be drilling a touch too hard. More carrot and less whip, perhaps?I suppose that's fair. I did attempt to give him a walkthrough of how to answer the question effectively (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389552#msg8389552), and his refusal to even make an attempt even after I put in the effort to filter through several old games to find as close of a match to his own situation as possible so that he'd have a good example, write two paragraphs to explain exactly what's going on and give him a guide on how to do it, and even write a second example of how to do things in the same post without directly calling attention to it so try to help protect his pride is what triggered me to get so aggressive against him. To my eyes, he lost the benefit of the doubt that he maybe just didn't know how to respond to this kind of thing, and so it's now a simple and direct active refusal, which is why the policy-lynch vote. I am fully prepared to retract my vote if he changes his tune.
Post by: Mamobo on July 12, 2022, 09:12:29 pm
------------------------
Knightwing64 - 3 - Lenglon* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389719#msg8389719), Egan_BW* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389773#msg8389773),
TricMagic - 2 - Shakerag* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389388#msg8389388), Maximum Spin* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389800#msg8389800),
FallacyofUrist - 1 - NJW2000* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389533#msg8389533),
Lenglon - 1 - Knightwing64* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389770#msg8389770),
NJW2000 - 1 - FallacyofUrist* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389664#msg8389664),
Egan_BW - 0 -
Lidku - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
Shakerag - 0 -
No One - 1 - TricMagic* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389763#msg8389763),
Not Voting - 1 - Lidku,
5 to Hammer. Day ends on July 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (22 hours and 47 minutes remaining.)
Post by: Egan_BW on July 12, 2022, 09:14:48 pm
Would you answer mine?
Yes, what’s your question?
This post:
Well, I haven't had much actual activity for the past IRL day or two, just answering questions I see. Anyone pick up on that? Just been feeling low energy and it's difficult for me to find the thread in this much activity without anything actually happening yet.
Knightwing (1x vote if that's allowed please?) and Lidku: It appears that you haven't made any votes yet this day, according to Mamobo at least. Is there a reason for this? I believe it's a good idea to use votes as pressure.
I feel like I should argue that Egan scum + FOU town should be discounted somehow, but maybe that's just because I already know my alignment. Omega Miller is a kinda extraordinary claim, I'm not sure if I could have thought of it without at least scumbuddy help it requires at least going through Wuba's OP carefully and checking what kinds of information powers exist and I'm not that committed to this game.
I'd feel a little suspicious of FOU for maybe copying the tracker part of my power. Honestly, if he is scum I don't feel like getting him outta here immediately anyways, let a fellow cursed player have a little fun.
reads: somewhat spooked by Max, Fal, Knight and Lidku. Just feels, you know. Activity is a bit too high for me to really remember everything which has happened so I'm not sure if I can bring up a more intelligent analysis right now. Have my monke feels instead.
I'm going to vote TricMagic for now, but I'm open to alternatives. Is anyone left not voting?Lidku appears to be making a policy of not voting D1. Apply newbie slack as you see fit, but I personally don't see it as being your style.
Knightwing hasn't voted, and hasn't replied to my question asking why not yet. Hop- Oh wait, he did vote Leng after the vote count and I missed it.
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 09:16:14 pm
Lenglon I'm pretty sure, as far as I know, Knightwing64 is fairly new to this subforum. I think you might be drilling a touch too hard. More carrot and less whip, perhaps?I suppose that's fair. I did attempt to give him a walkthrough of how to answer the question effectively (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389552#msg8389552), and his refusal to even make an attempt even after I put in the effort to filter through several old games to find as close of a match to his own situation as possible so that he'd have a good example, write two paragraphs to explain exactly what's going on and give him a guide on how to do it, and even write a second example of how to do things in the same post without directly calling attention to it so try to help protect his pride is what triggered me to get so aggressive against him. To my eyes, he lost the benefit of the doubt that he maybe just didn't know how to respond to this kind of thing, and so it's now a simple and direct active refusal, which is why the policy-lynch vote. I am fully prepared to retract my vote if he changes his tune.
I understand, but again, beginner's game. No need to go full super sayan here.
Post by: Lidku on July 12, 2022, 09:18:22 pm
Quote from: Shakerag
From experience, scum absolutely loves to lynch (or NK) active players because active players sniff out scum. Are you nervous that Lenglon is so aggresive? If you were town you'd appreciate her levels of activity.
It just seems to me it's just breaking Town cohesion and trust. I'm just coming from a place of wanting the rising vitriol to just simmer down a bit. And being active and aggressive are two things, different things at that. Activity is a bonus for a Town overall, but as I broached before, wanton aggressive.. especially on D1.. is just making things messy right now. I just feel like they're is a lot of potential Town infighting going on at the moment. If I were the Mafia and Lenglon truly is Town, I'd actually dine just to leave them alive JUST for their aggression alone.
Quote from: Shakerag
And if everyone is passive on D1 we have nothing to go on. I'm not saying you're scum, but you might not have the right attitude. I will be watching you in the future.
And there is nothing to go off of regardless, in terms of everyone being aggressive or passive. Even though I'm new to Mafia overall, I politely disagree that D1 is effective at all in the investigative method. I just prefer mechanically solving, especially since in the last BYOR game doing that is what almost led to a Town victory; the Town in that game only lost when I fell for the manipulations of Jim Groovester and believed that mechanically solving was useless.. when the whole time he was deceiving me otherwise.
I just consider mechanically solving and figuring out who did what on D2 and building off of that to be the most effective.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 12, 2022, 09:18:29 pm
I'm fine with my current doublevote on Knightwing though, it at least averts a large parallel tie.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 12, 2022, 09:19:11 pm
Lenglon I'm pretty sure, as far as I know, Knightwing64 is fairly new to this subforum. I think you might be drilling a touch too hard. More carrot and less whip, perhaps?I suppose that's fair. I did attempt to give him a walkthrough of how to answer the question effectively (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389552#msg8389552), and his refusal to even make an attempt even after I put in the effort to filter through several old games to find as close of a match to his own situation as possible so that he'd have a good example, write two paragraphs to explain exactly what's going on and give him a guide on how to do it, and even write a second example of how to do things in the same post without directly calling attention to it so try to help protect his pride is what triggered me to get so aggressive against him. To my eyes, he lost the benefit of the doubt that he maybe just didn't know how to respond to this kind of thing, and so it's now a simple and direct active refusal, which is why the policy-lynch vote. I am fully prepared to retract my vote if he changes his tune.
The only reason I talked about Egan was because I was annoyed and wanted to throw your words on a random person.
Look, I already told you this. I’m not a expert mafia player, i don’t have deep and smart reasons for why I believe things. I told you this. You then asked the same question over, and over, and over again.
Then you voted me because I was tired of responding to you.
Forgive me for being a little miffed, alright?
Also, Egan… buddy, I did vote. The vote count is literally right below your post. Come on.
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 09:20:47 pm
Egan_BW: Would you summarize what is making you vote Knightwing64?
Post by: Egan_BW on July 12, 2022, 09:21:24 pm
in the last BYOR game doing that is what almost led to a Town victory; the Town in that game only lost when I fell for the manipulations of Jim Groovester and believed that mechanically solving was useless.. when the whole time he was deceiving me otherwise.
I just consider mechanically solving and figuring out who did what on D2 and building off of that to be the most effective.
As I recall the opposite happened, you suspected Jim based on your intuition and his behavior, but were fooled by Jim being a Godfather who inspects as town, and he used that to gaslight you. You should have paid attention to your gut, rather than trusting the mechanics.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 12, 2022, 09:25:05 pm
And yeah,
this definitely happened. Jim was oozing scum from every pore, but you inspected him and decided he must have been the real hero all along.in the last BYOR game doing that is what almost led to a Town victory; the Town in that game only lost when I fell for the manipulations of Jim Groovester and believed that mechanically solving was useless.. when the whole time he was deceiving me otherwise.
I just consider mechanically solving and figuring out who did what on D2 and building off of that to be the most effective.
As I recall the opposite happened, you suspected Jim based on your intuition and his behavior, but were fooled by Jim being a Godfather who inspects as town, and he used that to gaslight you. You should have paid attention to your gut, rather than trusting the mechanics.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 12, 2022, 09:25:32 pm
Also, Egan… buddy, I did vote. The vote count is literally right below your post. Come on.
I acknowledged this in one of my previous posts. However, at the time of my post there was a recent vote tally and it showed that you had not voted at all, which I found interesting. Your very first post of the game was just shortly after, and not out of pressure but from frustration.
This indicates to me that for the majority of D1 you hadn't voted anyone for pressure. Lidku at least gave me an explanation of his strategy for not voting for pressure, you haven't yet and I'd like to hear your thoughts. Is it good for town to spend most of D1 not voting?
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 09:25:42 pm
Quote from: ShakeragFrom experience, scum absolutely loves to lynch (or NK) active players because active players sniff out scum. Are you nervous that Lenglon is so aggresive? If you were town you'd appreciate her levels of activity.
It just seems to me it's just breaking Town cohesion and trust. I'm just coming from a place of wanting the rising vitriol to just simmer down a bit. And being active and aggressive are two things, different things at that. Activity is a bonus for a Town overall, but as I broached before, wanton aggressive.. especially on D1.. is just making things messy right now. I just feel like they're is a lot of potential Town infighting going on at the moment. If I were the Mafia and Lenglon truly is Town, I'd actually dine just to leave them alive JUST for their aggression alone.
From a meta perspective, you're not really wrong. While Lenglon -is- very active, her aggressiveness could be a point for scum to hammer about on a later day. If I were scum, there would be good reasons to keep her alive for now, so I agree.
Personally, at this point in time I don't think Lenglon is scum, but is perhaps ... mmm ... trying too hard as town.
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 09:27:02 pm
Webadict: Since we don't have "official" IC roles, if I'm dead in game can I no longer post neutral advice?
Post by: Egan_BW on July 12, 2022, 09:28:20 pm
I'm not 100% comfortable with a Knightwing64 lynch, but that's mostly because they're new and, additionally, from a meta perspective I'd like them to play for longer.
Egan_BW: Would you summarize what is making you vote Knightwing64?
Hoping that it'll get me some substantial answers to the question I was trying to bring up in this post:
Knightwing (1x vote if that's allowed please?) and Lidku: It appears that you haven't made any votes yet this day, according to Mamobo at least. Is there a reason for this? I believe it's a good idea to use votes as pressure.
As of now his response seems to me to be a deflection, whereas Lidku's response is an actual reason, even if I don't agree with it. Thus I'm keeping my vote for the moment.
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 09:30:31 pm
I understand, but again, beginner's game. No need to go full super sayan here.True, and I should have borne that in mind and not used so much vitriol. That was unnecessary to make my point.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 12, 2022, 09:31:15 pm
You can see this in all of my other games.
Post by: Lidku on July 12, 2022, 09:32:21 pm
in the last BYOR game doing that is what almost led to a Town victory; the Town in that game only lost when I fell for the manipulations of Jim Groovester and believed that mechanically solving was useless.. when the whole time he was deceiving me otherwise.
I just consider mechanically solving and figuring out who did what on D2 and building off of that to be the most effective.
As I recall the opposite happened, you suspected Jim based on your intuition and his behavior, but were fooled by Jim being a Godfather who inspects as town, and he used that to gaslight you. You should have paid attention to your gut, rather than trusting the mechanics.
That was only because due to me being a Noob, I didn't even know about Godfather or what the role did. If I knew about it in a prior instance, I would have lied and said that my Inpsect on him had read as Mafia anyway: the tactic being that "damned if I'm wrong, but good if I'm right" type of situation. Mechanics in that game was how Town even came somewhat close to victory.
Anyways, since I'm being pressured to vote, I'll put one on FallacyofUrist. I just find him kinda shady, but nothing truly strong..
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 09:33:04 pm
Also, all "pressure voting" does is input stabs in the dark and just make Town jumpy against one another. I don't really see the effectiveness of it, considering how little D1 anyone can possibly go off of.
to be fair, pressure voting has a place, but it is mostly effective on inexperienced players (and maybe sometimes scum). Trying to put a pressure vote on, say, someone like webadict would be totally ineffectual.
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 09:33:28 pm
I normally wait to vote till there is somewhat of a consensus or I strongly suspect someone.Ok. Why?
You can see this in all of my other games.
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2022, 09:33:55 pm
Webadict: Since we don't have "official" IC roles, if I'm dead in game can I no longer post neutral advice?I see no problem in any players offering advice while dead, so long as all advice is completely neutral. I also have no problems with other forumgoers posting advice for players as well.
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 09:34:31 pm
I normally wait to vote till there is somewhat of a consensus or I strongly suspect someone.
You can see this in all of my other games.
I'd suggest you go with the latter. The former can appear scummy because you're just trying to hide your vote in the majority. If you actually think the person with the majority number of votes is scum it is always the best idea to vote with reasons.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 12, 2022, 09:34:47 pm
I normally wait to vote till there is somewhat of a consensus or I strongly suspect someone.Ok. Why?
You can see this in all of my other games.
Dunno. It’s just something I’ve always done.
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 09:35:46 pm
Webadict: Since we don't have "official" IC roles, if I'm dead in game can I no longer post neutral advice?I see no problem in any players offering advice while dead, so long as all advice is completely neutral. I also have no problems with other forumgoers posting advice for players as well.
I'd like to propose dead/outside players post advice in double brackets [[like so]] so as to indicate said neutral advice.
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 09:37:41 pm
I don't know is a perfectly valid response. If you don't know why you do things then you don't, and there's nothing more to say on the subject.I normally wait to vote till there is somewhat of a consensus or I strongly suspect someone.Ok. Why?
You can see this in all of my other games.
Dunno. It’s just something I’ve always done.
Unvote
Post by: Egan_BW on July 12, 2022, 09:39:27 pm
I normally wait to vote till there is somewhat of a consensus or I strongly suspect someone.I'll take this as a satisfactory answer. Unvote.
You can see this in all of my other games.
Though, if you vote with the consensus, did your vote really matter?
Post by: Lidku on July 12, 2022, 09:40:22 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 12, 2022, 09:42:10 pm
Anyways, since I'm being pressured to vote, I'll put one on FallacyofUrist. I just find him kinda shady, but nothing truly strong..This feels sketchy. Is that all you can do? You were pretty strongly against Lenglon a minute ago.
How about I make a deal with you. Tell me which player you really most want to get lynched and why, and if I can agree with you, I'll put my vote in the same place. You'll be a double-voter just like Egan! I remember doing this in that last BYOR, but I don't remember if it was you or Oliver...whatever the name was. Although that ended up being on the wrong person. Try not to do that.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 12, 2022, 09:42:26 pm
What is the vote count now?Tied between Tric and Fal with 2 votes, it appears. Knightwing is back down to 0 votes.
Post by: Mamobo on July 12, 2022, 09:44:17 pm
------------------------
FallacyofUrist - 2 - NJW2000* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389533#msg8389533), Lidku* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389821#msg8389821),
TricMagic - 2 - Shakerag* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389388#msg8389388), Maximum Spin* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389800#msg8389800),
Lenglon - 1 - Knightwing64* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389770#msg8389770),
NJW2000 - 1 - FallacyofUrist* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389664#msg8389664),
Egan_BW - 0 -
Knightwing64 - 0 -
Lidku - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
Shakerag - 0 -
No One - 1 - TricMagic* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389763#msg8389763),
Not Voting - 3 - Egan_BW* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389829#msg8389829), Lenglon* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389828#msg8389828),
6 to Hammer. Day ends on July 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (22 hours and 17 minutes remaining.)
NOTE: In the event of a tie, the Mafia chooses the execution target.
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 09:44:39 pm
TricMagic - I strongly prefer lynching an idle player over an active one, and don't like the tie. My vote could easilly shift off of here and I intend to unvote if Tric gets another because I don't want Tric at -1 Hammer.What is the vote count now?Tied between Tric and Fal with 2 votes, it appears. Knightwing is back down to 0 votes.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 12, 2022, 09:45:11 pm
I remember doing this in that last BYOR, but I don't remember if it was you or Oliver...whatever the name was. Although that ended up being on the wrong person. Try not to do that....It turns out I just offered to do it, but you never took me up on the offer. I remember doing that with SOMEBODY in SOME recent game, at least.
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 09:45:15 pm
D1 votes are generally best to analyze on D2/D3 after we've had a couple of roleflips.
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2022, 09:45:44 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 12, 2022, 09:46:36 pm
To be fair, to talk about meta again, I don't think you usually get a -strong- feeling on D1 as to who to lynch. If you do, either scum really fucked up, or you're likely voting a newbie.That's fair. It's not the "I don't have a strong opinion" part I object to, it's the "well I GUESS I'll vote him if I HAVE to" feel.
D1 votes are generally best to analyze on D2/D3 after we've had a couple of roleflips.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 12, 2022, 09:47:32 pm
Another note: I fixed the vote count so that No One, Not Voting, and the Hammer count properly factor in vote weight. Sorry about that!Ah! Makes me less scared of accidentally hammering with my doublevotes, thanks~
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 09:48:16 pm
TricMagic - I strongly prefer lynching an idle player over an active one, and don't like the tie. My vote could easilly shift off of here and I intend to unvote if Tric gets another because I don't want Tric at -1 Hammer.What is the vote count now?Tied between Tric and Fal with 2 votes, it appears. Knightwing is back down to 0 votes.
To be perfectly, fair, Egan_BW could hammer TricMagic right now. That may or may not influence you.
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 09:48:24 pm
6 to Hammer. Day ends on July 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (22 hours and 17 minutes remaining.)
5 to Hammer. Day ends on July 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (22 hours and 47 minutes remaining.)[/font]Web: Is this an error?
Post by: Lidku on July 12, 2022, 09:50:42 pm
Anyways, since I'm being pressured to vote, I'll put one on FallacyofUrist. I just find him kinda shady, but nothing truly strong..This feels sketchy. Is that all you can do? You were pretty strongly against Lenglon a minute ago.
How about I make a deal with you. Tell me which player you really most want to get lynched and why, and if I can agree with you, I'll put my vote in the same place. You'll be a double-voter just like Egan! I remember doing this in that last BYOR, but I don't remember if it was you or Oliver...whatever the name was. Although that ended up being on the wrong person. Try not to do that.
I generally don't like to flip-flop, but the person have I slight suspicions toward is TricMagic; but it would be hypocritical on principle to vote for them, I think, since I've often said that voting for someone purely on doing IRL activities isn't very effective (in which all of that came about defending TricMagic, to take a note of that).
FallacyofUrist I find a little bit suspicious based on their behavior based on past posts, but that could them just being somewhat Troll-like. But you're correct in your summarization in me voting for him because I "have to". It's at least better than a "No Vote/No Lynch" vote, which TricMagic is seemingly doing (kinda suspicious?)
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 09:50:48 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 12, 2022, 09:54:17 pm
wait a sec,
6 to Hammer. Day ends on July 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (22 hours and 17 minutes remaining.)5 to Hammer. Day ends on July 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (22 hours and 47 minutes remaining.)[/font]Web: Is this an error?
Hmm. An error or someone used a day ability? We'll find out.I think that's just what he meant by
Another note: I fixed the vote count so that No One, Not Voting, and the Hammer count properly factor in vote weight. Sorry about that!Counting Egan as 2, there would be 10 votes outstanding, so one more than one half is 6. But previously, it didn't factor that in properly, and just counted number of players, giving 5.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 12, 2022, 09:54:52 pm
Hmm. An error or someone used a day ability? We'll find out.
Judging from web's comment, the code wasn't set up to count my double vote for "not voting", "no one", and for the hammer calculation. So 5 was the error, it was always supposed to be 6 to hammer, and I can't hammer Tric.
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 09:57:36 pm
The ending of BYOR 0 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.1350) makes me doubt that hammer is calculated that way.wait a sec,
6 to Hammer. Day ends on July 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (22 hours and 17 minutes remaining.)5 to Hammer. Day ends on July 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (22 hours and 47 minutes remaining.)[/font]Web: Is this an error?Hmm. An error or someone used a day ability? We'll find out.I think that's just what he meant byAnother note: I fixed the vote count so that No One, Not Voting, and the Hammer count properly factor in vote weight. Sorry about that!Counting Egan as 2, there would be 10 votes outstanding, so one more than one half is 6. But previously, it didn't factor that in properly, and just counted number of players, giving 5.
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 10:01:55 pm
The ending of BYOR 0 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.1350) makes me doubt that hammer is calculated that way.wait a sec,
6 to Hammer. Day ends on July 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (22 hours and 17 minutes remaining.)5 to Hammer. Day ends on July 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (22 hours and 47 minutes remaining.)[/font]Web: Is this an error?Hmm. An error or someone used a day ability? We'll find out.I think that's just what he meant byAnother note: I fixed the vote count so that No One, Not Voting, and the Hammer count properly factor in vote weight. Sorry about that!Counting Egan as 2, there would be 10 votes outstanding, so one more than one half is 6. But previously, it didn't factor that in properly, and just counted number of players, giving 5.
That being said, the hammer count went up to 6 and then web posted the correction notice. So that would make me believe 6 is the -true- hammer count.
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 10:08:36 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on July 12, 2022, 10:11:56 pm
1) At no point did the mod designate anyone an IC, Experienced Player, or anything else that would indicate who is or who is not qualified to give advice.
In fact, I would not classify myself an Experienced Player, but Webadict's did not limit whom could give neutral advice.
SO... you ALL can give advice! It might even help in convincing others that You Are Town, and who doesn't want that? ;D
2) Advice is hard to read if not formatted properly. Use numbering, paragraphs, and labels to break up your walls of text. You can even differentiate different things, like
Rational for Vote Advice and @Player: Answer this Question
3) Keep discussion of the game in-thread, or scumchat if you have one. Discussing the game in Discord is a consolation prize for of those of us who are unable to play. Including those who die via death chat.]]
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 10:14:15 pm
[[Thanks to Webadict's invitation, I can give neutral advice.
1) At no point did the mod designate anyone an IC, Experienced Player, or anything else that would indicate who is or who is not qualified to give advice.
In fact, I would not classify myself an Experienced Player, but Webadict's did not limit whom could give neutral advice.
SO... you ALL can give advice! It might even help in convincing others that You Are Town, and who doesn't want that? ;D
2) Advice is hard to read if not formatted properly. Use numbering, paragraphs, and labels to break up your walls of text. You can even differentiate different things, like
Rational for Vote Advice and @Player: Answer this Question
3) Keep discussion of the game in-thread, or scumchat if you have one. Discussing the game in Discord is a consolation prize for of those of us who are unable to play. Including those who die via death chat.]]
[[As to your point #1, neutral advice should be -neutral-. I disagree that that should influence alignment perceptions.]]
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 12, 2022, 10:19:38 pm
[[As to your point #1, neutral advice should be -neutral-. I disagree that that should influence alignment perceptions.]]As you're not dead yet, it's probably best if we all assume every post you make is part of the game.
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2022, 10:20:33 pm
[[As to your point #1, neutral advice should be -neutral-. I disagree that that should influence alignment perceptions.]]As you're not dead yet, it's probably best if we all assume every post you make is part of the game.
Correct, so I will refrain from using double brackets again until I -am- dead.
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2022, 10:47:25 pm
wait a sec,
6 to Hammer. Day ends on July 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (22 hours and 17 minutes remaining.)5 to Hammer. Day ends on July 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (22 hours and 47 minutes remaining.)[/font]Web: Is this an error?
Another note: I fixed the vote count so that No One, Not Voting, and the Hammer count properly factor in vote weight. Sorry about that!The 5 hammer count was only correct at Day start. All others should have been 6.
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2022, 10:51:54 pm
The 5 hammer count was only correct at Day start. All others should have been 6....
Noted, and I have a theory about why this might be the case, but would like to keep it to myself until tomorrow.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2022, 12:29:07 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2022, 12:58:38 am
Lenglon is probably the towniest of all of us. The intent behind the aggressive scum hunting and interrogation has been clear. She's been the most engaged of everyone here, more than me, more than Max, more than Shakerag, and so on. I can't see her as non-town.
NJW2000 and Shakerag occupy the same sort of haziness in my mind. I think I need to give them both a closer look, really, since I have a feeling of 'sorta townie?' on them both. But not for any concrete reasons, which is unacceptable.
Maximum Spin and Knightwing exist in the same spectrum. They both see each other as town. Max's play started off really weak and suspicious, but once given information to engage with and sufficiently prodded by Lenglon, improved. I'm tempted to see that as just a fault of their play style and not an alignment tell, but I have to factor it in. Knightwing has been doggedly pursued by Lenglon for refusing to answer a question with any amount of detail. Ultimately if I vote Knightwing, it'll be for policy reasons, as all I have on him is minor suspicions at most.
TricMagic is a void. Not present enough to read.
Lidku actually seems to be settling in well. Slow start, but more informative and analytical posts. Hesitant town lean.
Egan opened with the equivalent of flipping the table by performing some vote fuckery (the fact that they did this on Day 1 suggests that it's not a limited resource, and I'm one-fifth throwing around the conspiracy theory that they just spent the mafiakill on a permanent extra vote). I think we have to set aside the whole omega miller thing and just look at their actual behavior, apart from the claim. As much as I enjoy their style, they may actually be acting scummy.
And then there's me. I may or may not be executed today, I hope I'm not. I don't trust Egan.
Roles wise:
I've claimed that all my actions show up as mafiakills.
Egan's claimed omega miller.
Maximum Spin has claimed to sorta kinda be a commuter ish.
Things I need to look into:
Egan's behavior beyond omega miller claim related stuff.
NJW and Shakerag's behavior overall, so I can see if I can cast them one way or another. I'm more inclined to trust NJW than Shake, but I haven't given things a thorough look yet.
Stay tuned.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2022, 01:20:14 am
The spooky, scummy thing is that they have no suspicions.
Good questions? Yes. Good interactions? Yes. Audacity? Yes.
But... they haven't expressed suspicion of anyone, not even once. Not a single 'this person is scummy'. Their current vote is a policy one at best, an easy pickoff at worst. I don't like that.
Egan_BW: Who's scum?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2022, 01:21:35 am
But... they haven't expressed suspicion of anyone, not even once. Not a single 'this person is scummy'. Their current vote is a policy one at best, an easy pickoff at worst. I don't like that.EBWOP: actually they don't even have a current vote because they unvoted, but now they're 'tempted to angle for' an execution on the person they unvoted, Knightwing.
Omega miller aside, this is scummy behavior.
Post by: NJW2000 on July 13, 2022, 06:24:04 am
I'm kind of ok with an Egan flip as I feel it may solve the FoU slot in some manner. I would prefer to see FoU eliminated though.
Will do a readslist but later... I have a train journey that would be perfect for that.
In any case, deep breath.
2) Egan town FoU scum. - you are advocating for thisShow me where I did this. Just show me where. Read my posts. Then reread them. Then see if you can pick out the bit where I say this.
Quote
I'm not misrepresenting anything. You are dismissing out of hand option 4, and you have stated that your reason for doing so is that it is to aduacious to be true. I consider this reason completely unacceptable.I am saying it is too unlikely to be reasonably accepted. READ MY POSTS. QUOTE THEM. Don't just ascribe random positions to me.
STOP MISREPRESENTING ME. I imagine several players don't particularly feel the need to see you survive the elim. If you continue to misrepresent what I say, I will be one of them. I don't care for players who post angry textwalls and fail to read the thread.
Post by: Lenglon on July 13, 2022, 07:09:36 am
2) Egan town FoU scum. - you are advocating for thisShow me where I did this. Just show me where. Read my posts. Then reread them. Then see if you can pick out the bit where I say this.
Uh.... right here? Like, the entire post? and a vote to go with it? Hello?
For me? My action would show up as targeting Max in that scenario, assuming I wasn't redirected or some other shenaniganery.
My actions show up as mafiakill actions, but their apparent targeting is not modified from what it actually is.
Now this is WEIRD. Because the same does not seem to be true of Egan. See:Ah in that case I'm like, omega miller. Inspects show me as mafia, surveys show my action as mafiakill, and tracking shows me as visiting whoever was killed.Shakerag - Please explain Miller Theory regarding D1 claims.
Oh I just realized I missed that. I stick by the old (relative to this subforum) rules that you always claim miller ASAP. To do otherwise is to invite doubt.
So there are different Omega-millers in play?
Ho hum. I find that hard to believe. Also, have a look through Fal and EgAns early interactions. They’re just a tad weird. At the very least, I think FoU is lying here.
Anything to say for yourself, FallacyOfUrist?
Okay, so you are splitting the hair between "option 4 is too audacious to be true" and "option 4 is too unlikely to be reasonably accepted." somehow. To me those sound like the same thing. What is the relevant difference?QuoteI'm not misrepresenting anything. You are dismissing out of hand option 4, and you have stated that your reason for doing so is that it is to aduacious to be true. I consider this reason completely unacceptable.I am saying it is too unlikely to be reasonably accepted. READ MY POSTS. QUOTE THEM. Don't just ascribe random positions to me.
STOP MISREPRESENTING ME. I imagine several players don't particularly feel the need to see you survive the elim. If you continue to misrepresent what I say, I will be one of them. I don't care for players who post angry textwalls and fail to read the thread.
Post by: Lenglon on July 13, 2022, 07:41:49 am
Post by: TricMagic on July 13, 2022, 07:53:46 am
TricMagic How confident are you still feeling about that Max vote? Looking more bandwagon-y to me right now. Pretending you're scum, he -does- seem like an easy target for a D1 lynch, no?So begins the end of inactivity. Even if we have 29 posts you mad lads and girls.
You put a FoS on NJW and Knightwing earlier? Want to justify that now or change your mind?
Max was mostly a pressure vote to get him to actually interact or get lynched. Hence why I didn't want to answer Lenglon's questions on it. The other two are inactivity blues making them look like they're lurking, and Lidku not looking good either.
Post by: TricMagic on July 13, 2022, 07:57:40 am
As for scum-hunting strat... Wait and see, and vote Shakerag for earlier posts.
Town likes to hunt, scum likes to tag along. Why are you being passive? It kind of looks like you wanted to vote me because I was "fighting" with Egan, but you jumped ships onto Max because of Lenglon pretty quickly. Looking like you don't have your own arguments for voting someone.
..As for this, RVS. You seemed as good to vote as any, and there was Fal's whole argument at the time. Wanted to see what would come of it, but then Max was Max.
Post by: TricMagic on July 13, 2022, 08:01:30 am
Ok, time to gather me thoughts.
Knightwing64 - looks new, but maybe an idiot. Leaning scum because of lack of engagement.
Okay, first of all 🖕I’m not a idiot.
Secondly, I have been posting at a consistent rate. I’m juggling numerous other games and various RL things so forgive me if I can’t post every 5 minutes like you can.
3: Just a afterword, but how are you going to call me sus for “lack of engagement” but you gloss over the fact NJW has barely posted at all? Suspect.
... Quantity isn't Quailty Knightwing. RL stuff is fine, but you haven't really added to the game.
... Granted, I think that was an argument I made in a past game..
Post by: TricMagic on July 13, 2022, 08:04:23 am
Knightwing, I do agree that the question was a stupid one, but I asked it anyway because you had made a self-contradictory claim. Please explain at length what you think of Tric, their meta, their behavior, and if they are scummy or not.Knightwing You have ignored this question, then deflected from answering it, and then ignored it once again. Answer the question.
:-\
I think Tric is town, they act scummy as town and they act like a town when scum. There is literally nothing else to say. I already told you what I thought about Tric and you keep repeating the same damn question over and over again.
What do you think about Egans meta? Their behavior, and if they are scum or not. I legitimately don’t trust you anymore lmao
Fun.. As of right now at this post, I'm leaning towards an Egan/Fal team.
Post by: TricMagic on July 13, 2022, 08:12:09 am
It is completely fallacious, no pun intended, to say that Fallacy's role is "more similar" to Egan's role than anything else. Fallacy is a miller in one way, Egan is a miller in every way. Every other possible way of being a miller would be equally similar to Egan's role as Fallacy's is.
If anything, Egan's role is more similar to mine than to Fallacy's or any other miller. Egan gives a "maximally mafia-like result" for all kinds of inspection, while I would give "no result". Is that an unreasonable coincidence?Has anyone ever seen the “I appear to have done the mafia kill” role before? I think it’s a very nonstandard miller-like roleI'd like to add that Fallacy did not claim that he "appear[s] to have done the mafia kill". He claimed that his actions will appear to be kill actions, such as to a Follower. That's not really common, but then Followers aren't really common. I don't think it's in any way unreasonable as a kind of miller in a game where Followers exist (which they might here).
To note to any potential followers. I will not be performing a targeting action tonight. If town, you're welcome to check. If doctor or such, pick another target, mafia killing me won't actually change the result of my action. Same to any vigs. You can consider this a soft-claim.
Honestly, Followers would waste their action on me, since they can only confirm I did not do the kill nor target anyone. Unless I'm a ninja, but eh.
Post by: TricMagic on July 13, 2022, 08:26:48 am
I'd definitely concur that we're not no-lynching, under any circumstances.
Knightwing is not a viable lynch target for me. Of currently voted people I'm not already voting for, I guess I'm most comfortable lynching... TricMagic, maybe Lenglon. I'd be open to suspecting Lidku over passive play, but I guess he should get some Noob Slack. Shakerag and Knightwing are town to me. Fallacy and NJW are both looking bad to me but seem mutually exclusive and I'm not sure which I should distrust. Then again, maybe that's the angle.
I... don't actually know why I'm voting Egan right now. I agree with what I SAID in the morning, but I don't know why I put a vote on it, I don't think it quite deserved that. I tend to be a little rash first thing in the morning. After the last several hours, he's definitely slid down my ranking of interest.
I do think Lenglon is being a dick. I don't know that I'd say that's lynchable in its own right outside some idea of a scum meta (like ToonyMan's), but I wouldn't call this normal town "aggression", and I do kind of want to get it out of the game.
I'm going to vote TricMagic for now, but I'm open to alternatives. Is anyone left not voting?
Maaaxxxxx. Remember what happens when people vote me out when I'm asleep? I'm always town when that happens, cause I don't have a partner defending me. Instead scum just pushes the vote.
Vote Count
------------------------
Knightwing64 - 3 - Lenglon* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389719#msg8389719), Egan_BW* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389773#msg8389773),
TricMagic - 2 - Shakerag* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389388#msg8389388), Maximum Spin* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389800#msg8389800),
FallacyofUrist - 1 - NJW2000* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389533#msg8389533),
Lenglon - 1 - Knightwing64* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389770#msg8389770),
NJW2000 - 1 - FallacyofUrist* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389664#msg8389664),
Egan_BW - 0 -
Lidku - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
Shakerag - 0 -
No One - 1 - TricMagic* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389763#msg8389763),
Not Voting - 1 - Lidku,
5 to Hammer. Day ends on July 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (22 hours and 47 minutes remaining.)
...Egan, can I ask why you didn't ask Webadict if you could just place a single vote? That was a very dangerous game you were playing.
Post by: TricMagic on July 13, 2022, 08:47:08 am
- Egan_BW: Egan's mostly been participating. But also playing rather fast and loose with their doublevote. Crucially, this is because they don't want to be the hammering vote. That would effectively draw suspicions down on them hard, but being Omega-Miller is definitely something you should either claim from day start or not at all. (Reasoning being that webadict is punishing mechanical claims.)
- FallacyofUrist: Fallacy remains a Fallacy, can't read them as anything other than scum-lean.
- Knightwing64: Knightwing continues to have one key issue, not able to generate quality posts during the few times he does post. The lack of actionable information or arguments makes them look scummy, but not actually useful as a tell.
- Lenglon: The hyper-aggressiveness isn't good. But their actions, arguments, and focus tells me they're town. That and I do actually have some idea of her personality, I think.
- Lidku: ... I don't actually have much to say, Lidku hasn't really impacted me. That's not a good thing given the machine-gun like reading.
- Maximum Spin: Actually pushing now, town-lean.
- NJW2000: Notable in quality posts lately, if not in great numbers. Unlike Lidku, they did impact me.
- Shakerag: Drunk or not, Shakerag has mostly taken the lead on posts meant to guide new players, and in between that mostly made a number of arguments and votes. I'm fairly confident this is Town-Shakerag.
- TricMagic: In which I go to play Minecraft for a bit.
Putting everything together, my vote would be for either Egan or Lidku.
Post by: NJW2000 on July 13, 2022, 08:48:36 am
Also, NJW, it's a little odd that you decided to cut out such tiny segments of my post and removed their context. You also didn't address the conclusion at the bottom in any way. Why did you do that? It already was a fairly small post, and it's especially odd that you would remove the context from my statements while pitching a fit about how I wasn't representing yours properly.You posted lies about what I said and didn’t quote me. I quoted those lies and explained that they were lies. If you think the context of a statement is more important than the actual truth about what was written in a thread, I don’t really think it’s possible for me to usefully communicate with you. You’re going to have to start responding to what was written, not what you vaguely imagine from a skimread, or this isn’t going to work.
I’m going to be patient, and respond to your question. The difference between saying that an event is improbable compared to plausible alternatives and saying that scum would never be audacious enough to do it is that one is the first thing I just said and the other is the second.
Post by: Lenglon on July 13, 2022, 08:54:25 am
NJW: Fix your lies. Now. I'm not going to put up with obvious bullshit, and you can just enjoy the vote for your troubles.
Post by: Lenglon on July 13, 2022, 09:02:19 am
You've pulled this crap before NJW and you know it just makes me mad. Please don't try that bullshit again here. I know you do it as both alignments, and I know you think it's a way to scumhunt, but that it's far more useful to you when you're scum, and I'm telling you up front, right now, that I find it in incredibly poor taste, and am not willing to tolerate it.
Post by: Lenglon on July 13, 2022, 09:21:53 am
Post by: NJW2000 on July 13, 2022, 09:42:07 am
*sigh*I don't find your failure to properly read my posts alignment indicative. I just find it obstructs my play. Also, yeah, I'm not doll, but confusion is fair enough. They did tend to be a bit more... abrasive.
NJW: Fix your lies. Now. I'm not going to put up with obvious bullshit, and you can just enjoy the vote for your troubles.
In any case, readslist:
(rather quick and scrappy, as it turns out, because I know who I have as scum already.)
Spoiler: reads (click to show/hide)
In conclusion: Kill Fallacy Now.
Post by: Mamobo on July 13, 2022, 09:50:04 am
------------------------
FallacyofUrist - 2 - Lidku* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389821#msg8389821), NJW2000* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389993#msg8389993),
TricMagic - 2 - Shakerag* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389388#msg8389388), Maximum Spin* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389800#msg8389800),
Egan_BW - 1 - FallacyofUrist* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389872#msg8389872),
Lenglon - 1 - Knightwing64* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389770#msg8389770),
Lidku - 1 - TricMagic* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389972#msg8389972),
NJW2000 - 1 - Lenglon* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389976#msg8389976),
Knightwing64 - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
Shakerag - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 2 - Egan_BW* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389829#msg8389829),
6 to Hammer. Day ends on July 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (10 hours and 10 minutes remaining.)
NOTE: In the event of a tie, the Mafia chooses the execution target.
Post by: Lidku on July 13, 2022, 10:36:20 am
Quote from: TricMagic
Lidku: ... I don't actually have much to say, Lidku hasn't really impacted me. That's not a good thing given the machine-gun like reading.
Can you elaborate on how I haven't impacted you? I've been speaking about you quite a bit in the majority of my posts so far in D1; while I don't believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) NJW has really spoken about you at all.
Post by: TricMagic on July 13, 2022, 10:46:46 am
Quote from: TricMagicLidku: ... I don't actually have much to say, Lidku hasn't really impacted me. That's not a good thing given the machine-gun like reading.
Can you elaborate on how I haven't impacted you? I've been speaking about you quite a bit in the majority of my posts so far in D1; while I don't believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) NJW has really spoken about you at all.
There's no case or argument that actually stands out, or pops. And looking back via your profile post option, a lot of talking, but no substance. You don't really suspect anyone, and voted cause you had to. Why Fal?
Post by: Lidku on July 13, 2022, 10:56:35 am
I'm voting for FallacyofUrist because I just find his claims toward having a "miller" to be suspicious, a sentiment of which that I also have with Egan. It's just a variable that I'm uncomfortable with. But again, if you read my posts, I generally disclosed that I don't have any strong arguments on anyone on D1, since I believe it's just the least effective day for figuring out who is Mafia. Putting a vote on FallacyofUrist helps alleviate the calls from others for me to "vote" for someone.
Post by: TricMagic on July 13, 2022, 11:12:16 am
Post by: Shakerag on July 13, 2022, 11:24:44 am
Putting a vote on FallacyofUrist helps alleviate the calls from others for me to "vote" for someone.
If I didn't think you were a clueless newbie a statement like that is incredibly scummy. Either way, my read on you is leaning scummier as the day has gone on.
At best your passivity is a detriment to town. At worst you're scum trying to fly under the radar by not standing out.
Post by: Lidku on July 13, 2022, 11:27:31 am
Quote from: TricMagic
K, so very late to this thread today. And a lot to read. Tomorrow morning.
... or now I'd just move to No Lynch if possible, and recontextualize tomorrow.
If you wanted to wait until tomorrow (which is today IRL-wise), why put in a random no vote like that? Why not just pop-in, say that you're going to post for tomorrow, and leave it at that? Why that random no lynch vote? Really strange...
Post by: Lidku on July 13, 2022, 11:32:31 am
Putting a vote on FallacyofUrist helps alleviate the calls from others for me to "vote" for someone.
If I didn't think you were a clueless newbie a statement like that is incredibly scummy. Either way, my read on you is leaning scummier as the day has gone on.
At best your passivity is a detriment to town. At worst you're scum trying to fly under the radar by not standing out.
And doing an outright No Lynch vote isn't scummy? You were one of the firsts to call out on TricMagic that doing that was a bad idea. And if anything, me becoming more moderately active than I was before is doing the opposite of being under the radar at the moment (to address your worst-case scenario of me).
It seems you favor aggression over passivity/neutrality as Town? That coincides with you for whatever reason favoring Lenglon, who is making a lot of random stabs at people who are most likely Town. It's just an off-handle playstyle and I don't think it favors Town as you seem to think.
Post by: Lenglon on July 13, 2022, 11:34:44 am
your position is that you are assigning probability A to the likelyhood that Scum!Egan would make an extraordinary miller claim, and saying it is possible either way.
you are then assigning probability B to the likelyhood that Web would make a special miller role, and saying it is possible either way.
you are then assuming that B has happened, changing its probability to 100%
you are then claiming that A&B is so unlikely that it should be discounted, given B, which in reality means the odds are exactly the same as A in isolation, which you already said was possible either way.
This is absolutely self-contradictory, but it IS what you are claiming as far as I can tell.
In an attempt to make this into something that makes any sense, I've been assuming that the reasons you have been using to give A a low probability are in your mind strong enough to set the probability of A to said close enough to zero that it should be discounted. Never mind that you should be assuming Egan is town in all cases if that is what it is, it's an easier contradiction to keep separated in your own head than the odds of A being two different values at the same time when you're actively thinking about probabilities.
Said reasons you were using to set A to near-zero were the extraordinary nature of the claim. Naturally I've been pointing out that the extraordinary nature of the claim is not a good enough reason to do this, and that you should not set A to near-zero. Apparently you never did set A to near-zero, you just didn't actually think your own claim through and assumed bad faith and called me a liar for trying to make sense of it. If this still isn't your position, then maybe you could do us all a favor and stop spouting accusatory nonsense and instead clarify the difference between our understanding of your position and your real position like a functioning adult would have from the beginning.
Unvote
As I said before, and with far less convoluted bullshit than you're attempting to demand I mind-read from you, and which you never addressed in any way, you need to think your logic through to the contrapositive. If you assume that Scum!Egan implies Scum!FoU, then the contrapositive also applies. namely that Town!FoU implies Town!Egan. I do not accept either of these. It is Day 1. It is scum behavior to attempt to set up chain lynches. Wait for more information before attempting to group players like this.
And again, it is flat wrong to assume that making an extraordinary claim implies that the claim is true.
Now hopefully I can put this absurdity aside to attempt to get a last-second read of Tric before day's end.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2022, 11:48:22 am
[spoiler=reads]Egan_BW: Lean scum. Highly dubious claim, admittedly. Many dubious points such as "haha we're both scum" with a nervy response from FoU as their first interaction, lack of suspects... and this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389865#msg8389865). If scum, probably with FoU.
FallacyofUrist: Scum. I don't really think there's going to be an omega-miller and a specialised-miller in the same game. If there are, Web has essentially created a bastard game instead of anything like a newbie game. I stand by my reasoning about the unlikelihood of a miller gambit + specialised miller guess on Egan's part, so I'm pretty sure FoU is scum. They also claimed miller quite late, which is not a townie thing to do.
In conclusion: Kill Fallacy Now.
Posting from phone (you have no idea how annoying this formatting is to create) to point out that the “lack of suspects” thing NJW claims to suspect Egan for is one of the points I came up with, pretty much directly taken from my post. NJW does not mention this.
NJW’s case on me is incredibly weak and boils down to ‘claim is unlikely to be real’ and ‘didn’t claim miller right away’. Note that he doesn’t address my behavior, nor my hunting, nor my interactions. Only my claims.
Of his two points, the first isn’t strong enough to go on. Basically, he’s trying to outguess the mod. I trust webadict more than myself to produce fun, balanced, setups.
The second point has slightly more merit. However, I still claimed on Day 1, not later, and near the start of the day. Furthermore my miller attribute is tied up with other qualities of my role. If it was simple alignment millerism I would have claimed it in the first post I made, but it’s a more complex situation. My claim is wholly truthful, but it is attached to other things that I would rather not reveal yet. If you’re letting Spin get away with not describing his commuter stuff, then you can let me have this, at least for now.
Frankly I’m offended that this is why I got voted. NJW doesn’t even try to consider my behavior outside of my humorous, early day, interactions with Egan. It’s one third of a case trying to pretend it’s enough to justify a vote.
Cough cough Egan NJW scumteam cough cough.
Lidku: If you’re going to vote someone, do it because you think they’re scum, not because it’s just easier to leave a vote on them. Do you think I am mafia, with high or moderate confidence, or are you just voting so Lenglon doesn’t hunt you down?
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 13, 2022, 11:53:48 am
No, that's about what I got. I'm just wondering why Fal over Egan?I've been wondering this too, as well as the inverse. There seems to be a strong division into two camps over this question, and I find it weird.
I was going to pick a post of Lidku's to respond to, but then this one showed up while I was typing... and this analysis is definitely completely spot-on. Lidku is being way too passive, and these weird little admissions are beyond scummy. If you didn't want to play, why are you here? At the same time, I can't understand why even noob scum would ADMIT to making a bullshit vote just to shut people up. Like, if nothing else, where is your partner in all this? Is nobody telling you to stop doing that? Or are you being bussed this early?Putting a vote on FallacyofUrist helps alleviate the calls from others for me to "vote" for someone.
If I didn't think you were a clueless newbie a statement like that is incredibly scummy. Either way, my read on you is leaning scummier as the day has gone on.
At best your passivity is a detriment to town. At worst you're scum trying to fly under the radar by not standing out.
I guess if I wanted to go out on a limb, I could maybe see Tric, Egan, or Knightwing being too nervous to manage him (and maybe NJW? I don't have any basis to judge his management skills, but he seems less engaged), and Lenglon or Shakerag being willing to start bussing him from the start, with maybe Fallacy (and of course myself, for completeness) in that category too. ... I accidentally just expanded it to cover everyone, thereby making the statement useless. I was going to say "this is all highly speculative and shouldn't be relied on in any way" to begin with, so I'll leave it in, but, look, I don't always plan out where I'm going to end up at the end of the paragraph.
Based on how my morning posts have been in this game I feel like I should take up drinking coffee. Or possibly hard liquor.
ANYWAY.
Tric posted and I guess it's fine? I feel like something is a little off from normal Tric, but he may just be taking the game a little more seriously now.
Oh look, Lidku has posted more while I was typing. Uh... neutral. It's still nothing impressive but it comes off as noob town, or at least, if nothing else, solidly noob something. I'm trying really hard not to vote for the only true noob in the Beginner BYOR on day 1 here.
I'm going to temporarily unvote. I think I have formed an intention to vote on my usual firm pattern, but I want to see more of where other people are going first, like Lenglon's promised Tric read and NJW's response to everything.
Post by: Lenglon on July 13, 2022, 11:56:58 am
Of course I'm making random stabs at people who are most likely town. most of the players here are town, and there's only two scum. There is nothing wrong with taking stabs at town players, up to a certain limit (and that limit is higher on Day 1 than it is on later days). The point of it all is to force people to be engaged and demonstrate what they think and especially WHY they think it. It tells you what behaviors are normal, and what behaviors are not. It tells you how invested players are in the process of finding the mafia. It shows who has doubts, concerns, questions, and generally is lacking information. Because the only people here that have the information they need, are the scumteam.Putting a vote on FallacyofUrist helps alleviate the calls from others for me to "vote" for someone.
If I didn't think you were a clueless newbie a statement like that is incredibly scummy. Either way, my read on you is leaning scummier as the day has gone on.
At best your passivity is a detriment to town. At worst you're scum trying to fly under the radar by not standing out.
And doing an outright No Lynch vote isn't scummy? You were one of the firsts to call out on TricMagic that doing that was a bad idea. And if anything, me becoming more moderately active than I was before is doing the opposite of being under the radar at the moment (to address your worst-case scenario of me).
It seems you favor aggression over passivity/neutrality as Town? That coincides with you for whatever reason favoring Lenglon, who is making a lot of random stabs at people who are most likely Town. It's just an off-handle playstyle and I don't think it favors Town as you seem to think.
Additionally, the way I've been behaving on Day 1 is not how I plan to behave on Day 2 or later. It took an insane amount of work and investment, but the point of everything I was doing today was to establish the personalities and thought processes behind each of the usernames. On Day 2 and later, if I kept being this aggro for stuff this minor, it would be a problem, you're correct. But on Day 2, we're going to have a lot more mechanical information, and because of the Day 1 groundwork, we can combine that mechanical information with the personalities and behaviors shown during Day 1. Remember, on Day 2 we're probably going to have two different flips we can feed into our understanding of things. You should actually expect a shift in everyone's behavior tomorrow, and you will want to look at what has changed and attempt to figure out why it's changed. But if that groundwork didn't exist, you wouldn't have a baseline to compare against. That's the point of Day 1, establishing that baseline. For example, lets say that we lynch me today, and I flip scum. Well in that case you might want to look at who I gave free passes to on Day 1. Maybe I broke off a sequence of questions without following through on one particular person. Maybe I lept to the defense of someone that was having trouble defending themselves. If Scum!Lenglon played all of Day 1 perfectly then you won't find anything useful that way, but the more content there is to go through, the more chances Scum!Lenglon had to make mistakes. And nobody is perfect. Heck, maybe Scum!Lenglon isn't the one that made the mistake, maybe her scumbuddy did, and Scum!Lenglon might have tried to compensate for it! On top of that, you'll also get to compare everyone else's behavior shift after Scum!Lenglon flips. Maybe the scumbuddy will become more cautious because they're alone. Maybe they'll become more reckless. How would you know which to look for? Well, that would require having a basic understanding of the personalities of people wouldn't it? So compare to the Day 1 baseline. once again.
Day 1 is very difficult to handle in general because there is so little information to work with, and the Day 1 lynch almost never catches scum (and if you're going to policy-lynch someone, Day 1 is the time to do it as a result), but it's still actually a very important Day, just one that can't be mechanically solved in any meaningful way.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2022, 11:58:08 am
After reviewing Egan's posts, just going by behavior alone?
The spooky, scummy thing is that they have no suspicions.
Good questions? Yes. Good interactions? Yes. Audacity? Yes.
But... they haven't expressed suspicion of anyone, not even once. Not a single 'this person is scummy'. Their current vote is a policy one at best, an easy pickoff at worst. I don't like that.
Egan_BW: Who's scum?
I don't know, as indicated by the fact that I haven't expressed much suspicion. Nobody's acting much differently than I'd expect based on their personality.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 13, 2022, 12:00:57 pm
I don't know, as indicated by the fact that I haven't expressed much suspicion. Nobody's acting much differently than I'd expect based on their personality.This should itself affect who you suspect. Can you tell me which players you should view with more suspicion under that premise?
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2022, 12:06:56 pm
Well, Fallacy of course. being that the normal behavior I've seen before from him is as scum.I don't know, as indicated by the fact that I haven't expressed much suspicion. Nobody's acting much differently than I'd expect based on their personality.This should itself affect who you suspect. Can you tell me which players you should view with more suspicion under that premise?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2022, 12:13:11 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 13, 2022, 12:14:44 pm
Heh, I meant "veterans who are better at faking their normal selves", but yes, that's actually a great point.Well, Fallacy of course. being that the normal behavior I've seen before from him is as scum.I don't know, as indicated by the fact that I haven't expressed much suspicion. Nobody's acting much differently than I'd expect based on their personality.This should itself affect who you suspect. Can you tell me which players you should view with more suspicion under that premise?
Of course, it applies to you too. :P
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2022, 12:15:46 pm
If you think I’m suspicious, why aren’t you voting me? It’s not hammer if you vote me, don’t worry, just one off.
I guess that’s good enough of a reason, but it doesn’t change the fact that you’re still not really hunting at all.
Don’t you have questions to ask of me, or at least a sharp blue FoS prod?
Post by: Lenglon on July 13, 2022, 12:16:31 pm
Max was mostly a pressure vote to get him to actually interact or get lynched. Hence why I didn't want to answer Lenglon's questions on it. The other two are inactivity blues making them look like they're lurking, and Lidku not looking good either.Next time please include reasons, as you saw, Max got up to -1 Hammer during that, and your vote was just a bandwagon vote, pressure or not. Also, including reasons in your pressure votes makes them apply a lot more effective pressure.
Fun.. As of right now at this post, I'm leaning towards an Egan/Fal team.Tric: Why?
/... Fal's latest post are good I guess. Still, after reading everything..Thank you for posting this, it helps a lot for getting a quick evaluation of your mindset.
- Egan_BW: Egan's mostly been participating. But also playing rather fast and loose with their doublevote. Crucially, this is because they don't want to be the hammering vote. That would effectively draw suspicions down on them hard, but being Omega-Miller is definitely something you should either claim from day start or not at all. (Reasoning being that webadict is punishing mechanical claims.)
- FallacyofUrist: Fallacy remains a Fallacy, can't read them as anything other than scum-lean.
- Knightwing64: Knightwing continues to have one key issue, not able to generate quality posts during the few times he does post. The lack of actionable information or arguments makes them look scummy, but not actually useful as a tell.
- Lenglon: The hyper-aggressiveness isn't good. But their actions, arguments, and focus tells me they're town. That and I do actually have some idea of her personality, I think.
- Lidku: ... I don't actually have much to say, Lidku hasn't really impacted me. That's not a good thing given the machine-gun like reading.
- Maximum Spin: Actually pushing now, town-lean.
- NJW2000: Notable in quality posts lately, if not in great numbers. Unlike Lidku, they did impact me.
- Shakerag: Drunk or not, Shakerag has mostly taken the lead on posts meant to guide new players, and in between that mostly made a number of arguments and votes. I'm fairly confident this is Town-Shakerag.
- TricMagic: In which I go to play Minecraft for a bit.
Putting everything together, my vote would be for either Egan or Lidku.
Post by: Lidku on July 13, 2022, 12:17:07 pm
Of course I'm making random stabs at people who are most likely town. most of the players here are town, and there's only two scum. There is nothing wrong with taking stabs at town players, up to a certain limit (and that limit is higher on Day 1 than it is on later days). The point of it all is to force people to be engaged and demonstrate what they think and especially WHY they think it. It tells you what behaviors are normal, and what behaviors are not. It tells you how invested players are in the process of finding the mafia. It shows who has doubts, concerns, questions, and generally is lacking information. Because the only people here that have the information they need, are the scumteam.
Additionally, the way I've been behaving on Day 1 is not how I plan to behave on Day 2 or later. It took an insane amount of work and investment, but the point of everything I was doing today was to establish the personalities and thought processes behind each of the usernames. On Day 2 and later, if I kept being this aggro for stuff this minor, it would be a problem, you're correct. But on Day 2, we're going to have a lot more mechanical information, and because of the Day 1 groundwork, we can combine that mechanical information with the personalities and behaviors shown during Day 1. Remember, on Day 2 we're probably going to have two different flips we can feed into our understanding of things. You should actually expect a shift in everyone's behavior tomorrow, and you will want to look at what has changed and attempt to figure out why it's changed. But if that groundwork didn't exist, you wouldn't have a baseline to compare against. That's the point of Day 1, establishing that baseline. For example, lets say that we lynch me today, and I flip scum. Well in that case you might want to look at who I gave free passes to on Day 1. Maybe I broke off a sequence of questions without following through on one particular person. Maybe I lept to the defense of someone that was having trouble defending themselves. If Scum!Lenglon played all of Day 1 perfectly then you won't find anything useful that way, but the more content there is to go through, the more chances Scum!Lenglon had to make mistakes. And nobody is perfect. Heck, maybe Scum!Lenglon isn't the one that made the mistake, maybe her scumbuddy did, and Scum!Lenglon might have tried to compensate for it! On top of that, you'll also get to compare everyone else's behavior shift after Scum!Lenglon flips. Maybe the scumbuddy will become more cautious because they're alone. Maybe they'll become more reckless. How would you know which to look for? Well, that would require having a basic understanding of the personalities of people wouldn't it? So compare to the Day 1 baseline. once again.
Day 1 is very difficult to handle in general because there is so little information to work with, and the Day 1 lynch almost never catches scum (and if you're going to policy-lynch someone, Day 1 is the time to do it as a result), but it's still actually a very important Day, just one that can't be mechanically solved in any meaningful way.
This was an insightful post and has really elaborated your work-process on D1, even though I still don't fully agree with it (particularly making the other players angry in a full-length capacity). It coincides along with some saying that the social aspect of the game is important as well, which I was admittedly neglecting (which is the cause of me being perceived as "passive" by others) for only wanting to focus on the mechanical part. Both aspects are important to take note of, but next time in another game of BYOR on a D1, I'll be much less aggressive and go for a calmer inquisitorial style; nothing too crazy.
While I found FallacyofUrist's Miller (and Egan's) claims to be suspicious, I don't have any strong particular suspicions against them. And taking Fallacy's own advice, I'm going to put a vote on TricMagic, for reasons quoted below:
I just choose randomly between the two, but again, my vote (hopefully) isn't meant to get involved in a direct lynch. I know that sounds iffy, but it is at least better than a No Lynch vote.. which was something you put out TricMagic, but then funnily enough withdrawn to put a vote on me suddenly?Quote from: TricMagicK, so very late to this thread today. And a lot to read. Tomorrow morning.
... or now I'd just move to No Lynch if possible, and recontextualize tomorrow.
If you wanted to wait until tomorrow (which is today IRL-wise), why put in a random no vote like that? Why not just pop-in, say that you're going to post for tomorrow, and leave it at that? Why that random no lynch vote? Really strange...
Putting a vote on FallacyofUrist helps alleviate the calls from others for me to "vote" for someone.
If I didn't think you were a clueless newbie a statement like that is incredibly scummy. Either way, my read on you is leaning scummier as the day has gone on.
At best your passivity is a detriment to town. At worst you're scum trying to fly under the radar by not standing out.
And doing an outright No Lynch vote isn't scummy? You were one of the firsts to call out on TricMagic that doing that was a bad idea.
I'm just finding his behavior and strange haphazard activity (that is either inactive or active, but primarily the former) suspicious at the moment.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2022, 12:23:57 pm
Oh, and.
If you think I’m suspicious, why aren’t you voting me? It’s not hammer if you vote me, don’t worry, just one off.
I guess that’s good enough of a reason, but it doesn’t change the fact that you’re still not really hunting at all.
Don’t you have questions to ask of me, or at least a sharp blue FoS prod?
too lazy. ~7 hours left, I'll see if I'm more awake later.
Post by: NJW2000 on July 13, 2022, 12:38:15 pm
Pfp
@FoU: yeah, that was your point on Egan, I hadn’t spotted it and acknowledged it was interesting after you posted it. It is the most dubious thing about their play today, aside from the miller stuff. I never claimed it was my point, and you making it doesn’t mean it’s wrong, regardless of alignment. This is a weak prod at me.
As to my case on you: sorry, but I think it’s good enough to vote on. It’s ironic that you tell me not to outguess the mod, given the last role you gave me was entirely about doing that. As for your other play… you’re decent at mafia, so the “you stole my idea” attack was about as weak as you’ll get. The miller stuff is simply the most important thing today, and it’s what I’m voting on.
Post by: TricMagic on July 13, 2022, 12:42:27 pm
I was about to vote Egan now that we've established your own thoughts. Also, that No Lynch s going to prove very informative day 2.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2022, 12:49:03 pm
NJW: Does my non-claim behavior support your case? I’m expecting a yes or no answer here.
Post by: Lidku on July 13, 2022, 12:54:38 pm
Kicks feet about. Lidku, you can't lynch me. I'm perfectly willing to reveal my entire role today. Are you going to force the issue?
I wouldn't be the only one lynching you, it would be two others as well. Also, if you feel the need to reveal your role to get votes of you, please feel free to do so and not stall.
I was about to vote Egan now that we've established your own thoughts.
Can you make sense of what you mean here?
You were apparently going to vote Egan, but went for me instead, but now that I've suddenly "established" my thoughts (something of which I was doing before regardless, in the game) you were going to switch to Egan...? But no that I've voted you, you will have a vote remain on me?
I'm just confused by the wording there...
Also, that No Lynch s going to prove very informative day 2.
How does a No Lynch vote be informative? And what purpose does it even have in the current context, since you've switch your no lynch to vote for me... it would have no informative value for a D2, since it won't be in play anymore.
Yeah, I find that TricMagic is acting really strange at the moment.
Post by: NJW2000 on July 13, 2022, 12:56:27 pm
We’re not no-lynching.Do you mean your late claim, or the claimed thing you shouldn’t claim that explains it? Both slightly, I’d say.
NJW: Does my non-claim behavior support your case? I’m expecting a yes or no answer here.
Post by: TricMagic on July 13, 2022, 12:57:06 pm
We’re not no-lynching.I mean, obviously?
NJW: Does my non-claim behavior support your case? I’m expecting a yes or no answer here.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2022, 01:04:18 pm
...Nah, doesn't really make sense, does it? And I don't know how dangerous double voting is from the mafia's perspective. Could someone TM me whether my power would be likely to get me targetted by mafia as town?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2022, 01:09:43 pm
No, I mean my behavior which has nothing to do with my claim. Behavior that is not in the category of claim-related. Does that support your vote on me, and if so, why? Please provide direct quotes if possible.We’re not no-lynching.Do you mean your late claim, or the claimed thing you shouldn’t claim that explains it? Both slightly, I’d say.
NJW: Does my non-claim behavior support your case? I’m expecting a yes or no answer here.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 13, 2022, 01:16:19 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on July 13, 2022, 01:19:58 pm
Mafia is obvious: They are outnumbered, and win by killing off enough Townies during the Night Phases to equal the Town players.
Town is less obvious: On Day 1, the only person that a Town player is ABSOLUTELY sure is Town is themselves. Therefore, any other player is preferable to getting lynched themselves.
I thought this would help both Town and Scum players as everyone decides on their Day 1 Lynch. Good Luck Everyone!]]
Post by: Lenglon on July 13, 2022, 01:37:31 pm
notation: (L) is my logical read, and (E) is my emotional read.
Egan_BW - (L) - Special, (E) - mild scum - Egan is in a bit of a weird spot for my read, and it's all about their claim. I don't particularly want to lynch Egan at this time, though I don't mind an Egan lynch either. Right now I'm inclined to think they're more likely town than not, and want to keep them alive to play things out. I have some expectations about Egan that depending on if and how they are or aren't fulfilled could very dramatically change my opinion of them very quickly, but at the moment, I prefer Egan alive.
FallacyofUrist - (L) - Probable Town, (E) - null - I'm aware that I'm a bit of an odd one out here, but I fully buy that FoU's claim is true at least as much as they've claimed so far. And their actual day-play, which worryingly I'm not seeing a single person talk about, seems to me to be that of a town player. FoU is honestly one of the people I want to see lynched the least of everyone here, second only to Shakerag.
Knightwing64 - (L) - mild scum, (E) mild town - Knightwing is currently coasting on their new-player grace period, and hasn't put themselves out there in a meaningful way. However, they're new, and I don't think it's intentional. I don't mind a Knightwing lynch, but I'm not going to push for it.
Lidku- (L) null, (E) null - Lidku is playing a very defensive game, and is making normal new-player theorycraft mistakes. They are willing to put themselves out there, engage, and express their thoughts, and so I much prefer them over knightwing. I do not want a Lidku Lynch at this time. If we are going to lynch a new player, I prefer a knightwing lynch.
Maximum Spin - (L) probable scum, (E) probable town - Yes, you're reading that correct, I have strong directly contradictory opinions on if Max is scummy or not. Max set off my scumdar really hard in the earlygame, and his reaction to when I pressured him about it was exactly wrong. Max showed me pretty much every sign I could have asked for that he's scum that got caught out. However, his recovery from that position was stellar. His entire attitude and approach to the game shifted, he started expressing himself in far better detail, he became engaged with the other players. In short, his behavior became everything I could have asked for, and his explanation for why he acted how he did early on was solid. This has left me more than a little uncertain on the subject. Max is one of the players I would most love to have someone provide me an alignment inspection of. Which of course couldn't work tonight anyway since he's a commuter.
NJW2000 - (L) probable town, (E) annoyingly town. - NJW annoyed me, yes, and his reasoning is trash, also yes, but the reasons he has done what he's done and said what he's said are clear and consisntent. I disagree with basically all his conclusions, but I don't think he reached them in poor faith. It would be nice for me if he was scum but I don't think he actually is.
Shakerag - (L) Special, (E) certainly town - Yes, again, like Egan there are certain expectations I have of Shakerag, and my future read of him could change very hard and fast, but despite that his presence and playstyle today has felt like the most towny of anyone here. I split my reads up like this for a reason, and I don't consider Shake as overwhelmingly town as I'd like to, and again, he's got that special tag for a reason, but for today at least Shake is who I want lynched the absolute least of anyone here.
TricMagic - (L) null, (E) null - Tric has been gone most of the day, and in terms of effective posting they had a single meaningful spree of posts. Their response when they did post things seemed good, and their comprehension of what happened during the day as a whole was good. But it's effectively the same as if a player has one really good post and a bunch of little mostly-meaningless ones. You just can't make a good read out of that. I don't want to hold their idleness against them, but I have zero issues with a TricMagic lynch.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 13, 2022, 02:02:04 pm
...Nah, doesn't really make sense, does it? And I don't know how dangerous double voting is from the mafia's perspective. Could someone TM me whether my power would be likely to get me targetted by mafia as town?I would expect that it would.
I'm going to be gone for the next few hours. I should be back before the buzzer. In case I'm not, I'm comfortable with a TricMagic lynch today. I'm not sure it's my ideal pick but it's the best I can come up with in the couple of minutes I have right now! Got to go with your gut at some point. See you all later.
Post by: TricMagic on July 13, 2022, 02:12:13 pm
All I have at the moment is my roleclaim. Put simply, I'm an entire game of BYOR Mafia, Again. At the end of the day I can pick an ability the previous game had, and if it's active it becomes 1-shot. I was planning on using it to grab the vote after death power.
Post by: TricMagic on July 13, 2022, 02:12:58 pm
Post by: Mamobo on July 13, 2022, 02:20:39 pm
------------------------
TricMagic - 3 - Shakerag* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389388#msg8389388), Lidku* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390057#msg8390057), Maximum Spin* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390101#msg8390101),
Egan_BW - 1 - FallacyofUrist* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389872#msg8389872),
FallacyofUrist - 1 - NJW2000* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389993#msg8389993),
Lenglon - 1 - Knightwing64* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389770#msg8389770),
Lidku - 1 - TricMagic* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389972#msg8389972),
Knightwing64 - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
NJW2000 - 0 -
Shakerag - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 3 - Egan_BW* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389829#msg8389829), Lenglon* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390036#msg8390036),
6 to Hammer. Day ends on July 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (5 hours and 39 minutes remaining.)
Post by: TricMagic on July 13, 2022, 02:23:08 pm
Post by: Lidku on July 13, 2022, 02:35:08 pm
Kay, rude. But OK.
All I have at the moment is my roleclaim. Put simply, I'm an entire game of BYOR Mafia, Again. At the end of the day I can pick an ability the previous game had, and if it's active it becomes 1-shot. I was planning on using it to grab the vote after death power.
What do you mean "again"? I just checked the last BYOR game documentation and your role was as Totori Helmond.
Unless you're referring that you took up Maximum Spin's role from last game? Looking at the details of what that role had, none of it discloses an ability to pick up abilities from a previous game...
What are you talking about TricMagic?
Post by: TricMagic on July 13, 2022, 03:06:56 pm
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 13, 2022, 03:14:40 pm
Lidku.. could be scum? I mean. They’re acting pretty much the exact same as they did last game when they were town but it could be a ploy, and something about them just gives me a bad feeling.
I believe Lenglon is a incredibly aggressive town player, however it pains me to admit. Other then myself, I’m most sure of that.
Fallacy: someone mentioned them having a very nervous response to Egan saying “I guess we’re both scum” I feel like both of them being scum wouldn’t do that, but I suspect Fallacy as being scum and Egan just being a trolly town as usual.
I believe max is town? I could be convinced otherwise, but for now it seems probable.
Shakerag is kinda null for me, they act like Lenglon but not? If that makes any sense. I’m getting a town and scum feel on them, which is weird.
Dunno if I missed anyone. Those are my thoughts on players right now.
Post by: NJW2000 on July 13, 2022, 03:30:34 pm
Quite busy rn but I'd just like to note that voting someone other than one of the miller claims means you believe both miller claims or you're more than 50% on that person. Tric elim isn't something I want, I want Egan or FoU.
No real thoughts on his power... seems potentially overpowered, and capable of giving some info, but quite random?
Post by: Lidku on July 13, 2022, 03:43:19 pm
... Really Lidku? I just explained what my role ability was.
You're saying that your role is "An Entire Game of BYOR Mafia," which was Maximum Spin's chosen role for the previous BYOR game we were in (and like I pointed out before, a role you didn't have in the previous game, but something else you had). His role didn't have the ability you claim it does; the ability to supposedly grab other abilities from a previous game?
Can you please elaborate on what you're trying to explain about your role? Does it have the same abilities as Maximum Spin in the previous game; or is this some new ability you're claiming this previous role has, as something new that webadict had added to it?
Post by: TricMagic on July 13, 2022, 04:05:39 pm
... Really Lidku? I just explained what my role ability was.
You're saying that your role is "An Entire Game of BYOR Mafia," which was Maximum Spin's chosen role for the previous BYOR game we were in (and like I pointed out before, a role you didn't have in the previous game, but something else you had). His role didn't have the ability you claim it does; the ability to supposedly grab other abilities from a previous game?
Can you please elaborate on what you're trying to explain about your role? Does it have the same abilities as Maximum Spin in the previous game; or is this some new ability you're claiming this previous role has, as something new that webadict had added to it?
Do you really think webadict would just reuse a role? I've already explained it, I can grab an ability from the previous game at the end of each day. And active abilities become 1-shots. Useless if I get lynched before I can even get one though.
Post by: TricMagic on July 13, 2022, 04:16:20 pm
Well, not like I want to get lynched. I'd accept it, but not be happy about it. Egan, got any arguments to be left alive as an omega miller and double voter?
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 13, 2022, 04:24:07 pm
Also, it's kind of flattering that you took my idea.
Tric elim isn't something I want, I want Egan or FoU.I'll take you up on that. Egan_BW
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2022, 04:38:02 pm
got any arguments to be left alive as an omega miller and double voter?Not particularly, seeing as that's objectively what I am. I think the onus of proof lies on you. Is it a good idea to policy lynch me?
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2022, 04:41:11 pm
FallacyofUrist
ur scum copying my miller claim, cly
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2022, 04:51:09 pm
A tied vote results in mafia controlling the execution.
Granted, this is also a three-way tie, now. But Egan's vote is about as justified as NJW's vote on me is, and it's for the exact same reasons. 'mafiakill miller bad'.
No mention of my behavior. No mention of any reason for voting me other than my semi-miller claim. That's not good enough.
I'm 90% sure Egan is scum, now. and 70% sure the scum team is Egan/NJW.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2022, 04:59:47 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2022, 05:07:06 pm
I'm tired, you look scummiest to me.Gimme three reasons not related to my miller claim that I'm scum, then?
Not asking for essays or paragraphs, just three actual reasons based on my behavior.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2022, 05:23:55 pm
So to conclude, Egan_BW and NJW2000 have maintained each other as minor scum but not an actual target (distancing behavior) and are both voting me for the exact same reason, my weak miller claim, without regard to my actual behavior.
Neither of them can give reasons why I'm scum other than 'I dunno bad miller claim' and when other players, like Lenglon, have actual behavior-based cases, that really isn't sufficient as a reason to vote.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2022, 05:25:50 pm
Two, You may have buddied me a little in my spat with Shakerag, or at least gotten involved. By Max's logic, that means there's possible scum between you and Shake.
Three, you think I'm scum when I'm town.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2022, 05:33:19 pm
Reasonable-ish,
in no way definitive or useful,
and I guess we'll find out, won't we?
I really don't think a weak meta read without specific examples/comparisons and a conspiracy around my follower-miller claim is a stronger case than one actually based around a very simple question.
Has Fallacy been actively pushing cases and hunting scum?
Can you answer that one, too?
Post by: Mamobo on July 13, 2022, 05:45:03 pm
------------------------
Egan_BW - 3 - TricMagic* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390157#msg8390157), Maximum Spin* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390160#msg8390160), FallacyofUrist* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390183#msg8390183),
FallacyofUrist - 3 - NJW2000* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389993#msg8389993), Egan_BW* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390166#msg8390166),
TricMagic - 2 - Shakerag* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389388#msg8389388), Lidku* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390057#msg8390057),
Lenglon - 1 - Knightwing64* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389770#msg8389770),
Knightwing64 - 0 -
Lidku - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
NJW2000 - 0 -
Shakerag - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 1 - Lenglon* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390036#msg8390036),
6 to Hammer. Day ends on July 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (2 hours and 14 minutes remaining.)
NOTE: In the event of a tie, the Mafia chooses the execution target.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2022, 05:49:32 pm
NOTE: In the event of a tie, the Mafia chooses the execution target.Well, what'll it be?
If you're the reason the vote ties in 2 hours, Egan_BW, there's no way you survive Day 2's execution.
You know this.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 13, 2022, 05:52:15 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 13, 2022, 05:53:30 pm
Egan_BW.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2022, 05:53:54 pm
Let's look at things from your perspective.
Fallacy, masterful always scum, has cornered you with their merry goons, TricMagic, and Maximum Spin.
Your
The vote is tied, 3 on you, 3 on evil!Fallacy. Obviously, a tie is unacceptable - that way lies the mafia choosing the execution target anonymously. A completely unreasonable outcome. Likewise, your own execution is unacceptable. If you're town, and in this hypothetical scenario you are, then you're the only person you know for sure is town, barring role shenanigans.
Since you're already using your votemancy to double up your power, the only option left to you is argument.
I really don't think a weak meta read without specific examples/comparisons and a conspiracy around my follower-miller claim is a stronger case than one actually based around a very simple question.
Has Fallacy been actively pushing cases and hunting scum?
Can you answer that one, too?
If you're town, and you're so convinced I'm mafia, why use such a weak case? It's not going to be sufficient to get anyone to switch from voting you to voting the dastardly Fallacy.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2022, 05:56:25 pm
Lenglon, What do you think?I'd suggest using your own reasoning to make a decision instead of relying on everyone else's. You're here to learn, aye? Use the reasoning of others to support your own reasoning, but not to replace it.
You can join Shakerag and push Egan down, or join with Egan and vote me (and tie the vote again, which is bad). Or you can even come up with a third, separate case and see if you can convince people to go along with it.
Your role isn't your only set of powers - your words are power, too. It's up to you to use them well.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2022, 06:11:21 pm
Leng's got an alright read on my personality, I don't have the emotional stamina for this kind of bullshit. I've used a lot of words this day and tried to be helpful. If I help everyone, then most of the people I help are Town.
As for your question of if you've been pushing cases, I've been reading everything and I couldn't give you a definitive answer. I don't think you've been pushing people much more than I have until recently, but these sorts of things don't stick in my mind very long. Too much data.
Post by: Mamobo on July 13, 2022, 06:14:36 pm
------------------------
Egan_BW - 4 - TricMagic* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390157#msg8390157), Maximum Spin* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390160#msg8390160), FallacyofUrist* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390192#msg8390192), Shakerag* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390198#msg8390198),
FallacyofUrist - 3 - NJW2000* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389993#msg8389993), Egan_BW* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390166#msg8390166),
Lenglon - 1 - Knightwing64* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389770#msg8389770),
TricMagic - 1 - Lidku* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390057#msg8390057),
Knightwing64 - 0 -
Lidku - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
NJW2000 - 0 -
Shakerag - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 1 - Lenglon* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390036#msg8390036),
6 to Hammer. Day ends on July 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (1 hours and 45 minutes remaining.)
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 13, 2022, 06:20:28 pm
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 13, 2022, 06:21:12 pm
Post by: TricMagic on July 13, 2022, 06:24:12 pm
Just a gut feeling, but I think Egan is town. Or scum who has given up.The latter is the opposite of helpful Knightwing.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2022, 06:35:56 pm
FallacyKnightwing, are you aware that if the vote is tied at the end of the day, scum decide who is executed? You just tied the vote.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 13, 2022, 06:38:09 pm
FallacyKnightwing, are you aware that if the vote is tied at the end of the day, scum decide who is executed? You just tied the vote.
Yes. I’m counting on Leng. They haven’t voted yet, and I would like to see their thoughts. If they don’t vote, I’ll just change my vote in a bit.
:)
Post by: Lenglon on July 13, 2022, 06:40:39 pm
Lenglon, What do you think?You don't have any need to ask this Knightwing. I posted my reads list here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390095#msg8390095) and there is exactly one piece of data we've gotten since then, though I do admit it's a bit of a complex and even now still evolving piece of data. We are getting to see various people's panic behaviors, and what their priorities are under pressure as the moment of the lynch draws near. What's happening right now is the last, and absolutely the most valuable, piece of information we're going to get from Day 1. You should be looking carefully for who is acting out of character for themselves, or changing their tune from the rest of the day as a whole, and be attempting to figure out WHY they're doing that.
As always with most things mafia, and especially with Day 1 things, WHY is the most important question.
Lenglon, What do you think?I'd suggest using your own reasoning to make a decision instead of relying on everyone else's. You're here to learn, aye? Use the reasoning of others to support your own reasoning, but not to replace it.
You can join Shakerag and push Egan down, or join with Egan and vote me (and tie the vote again, which is bad). Or you can even come up with a third, separate case and see if you can convince people to go along with it.
Your role isn't your only set of powers - your words are power, too. It's up to you to use them well.
This piece of advice may be coming from one of the potential lynch targets, but I will vouch for it being good advice anyway.
Egan - I am voting you because of a couple things. For one, as listed when I posted my reads, I have mixed opinions regarding if you are scum or town whereas for me personally FoU has seemed quite towney with all their interactions, analysis, and generally how they've carried themselves all day today. Secondly, I find FoU's form of miller claim easilly acceptable, far more acceptable than your every extreme one, and I don't consider waiting to make his claim until the middle of the day scummy since there still was plenty of time in Day 1. Thirdly, I dislike the lack of reason you had when you decided to turn on FoU. You had been holding your vote in a very considered fashion all day, but when you finally do place it for the day's end lynch your reasons were literally:
FallacyofUristWhich honestly is not enough to form a lynch case on someone with. Fourth, as I hinted indirectly when talking knightwing through meta-reads, I've been leaving you mostly alone today to give you the space I thought you would need to provide good reads and analysis, with the expectation that around now you'd have posted something similar to the reads list I posted earlier, showing your in-depth thoughts about each player. This expected analysis never came, which could easilly be a sign of a scum player that think they aren't under scrutiny never actually bothering to build a set of believable reads in the first place.
ur scum copying my miller claim, cly
I also will now put on the table the reason I had you marked as "(L) Special" earlier, which I had previously actively decided to keep to myself until Day 2.
This theory is that you did not start the day with a doublevote, and that you gained doublevote status with the cost of permanently becoming an omega-miller as a day-activated ability. This theory also was the reason I was prepared to accept your omega-miller claim, it seemed like a reasonable price for the extra power, and to me it looked like a perfectly likely role for a player to have. And so in case you didn't notice, I've been treating you like a Mayor all day, and I kept this theory to myself because I wanted to avoid having you targeted. I personally have no major issue with either of our miller claims in a vaccum.The 5 hammer count was only correct at Day start. All others should have been 6....
Noted, and I have a theory about why this might be the case, but would like to keep it to myself until tomorrow.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2022, 06:41:08 pm
I think I'm willing to trust you on that. If they haven't shown up in, say... thirty minutes, an hour, you'll move your vote to Egan? Does that sound fair?
Ninjad - well will you look at that.
Post by: Mamobo on July 13, 2022, 06:42:22 pm
------------------------
Egan_BW - 5 - TricMagic* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390157#msg8390157), Maximum Spin* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390160#msg8390160), FallacyofUrist* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390192#msg8390192), Shakerag* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390198#msg8390198), Lenglon* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390215#msg8390215),
FallacyofUrist - 4 - NJW2000* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389993#msg8389993), Egan_BW* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390166#msg8390166), Knightwing64* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390209#msg8390209),
TricMagic - 1 - Lidku* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390057#msg8390057),
Knightwing64 - 0 -
Lenglon - 0 -
Lidku - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
NJW2000 - 0 -
Shakerag - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 0 -
6 to Hammer. Day ends on July 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (1 hours and 17 minutes remaining.)
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 13, 2022, 06:45:13 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2022, 06:51:40 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2022, 06:52:21 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2022, 07:01:27 pm
You just weren't proactive enough, and your attack on me was just... 'miller bad'.
Cool role though.
Post by: Lenglon on July 13, 2022, 07:01:33 pm
It's fairly close. The reason why I didn't have double votes was because I started with a list of 5 powers I could pick 3 from during day 1. In exchange for being Omega Miller.
I immediately picked double votes and two other autos, because I don't like thinking.I can completely buy this. It seems very much like a Web thing to do, and you did breadcrumb it earlier as well when explaining what would happen if you were tracked. As I said before, my primary reasons for voting you over FoU are behavior-based, not claim-based. You do still have the problem of the Omega-miller status being so extreme that we aren't able verify you as town in any mechanical way. It's entirely reliant on your dayplay, so when you don't present a solid daygame set of insights, reads, interactions, and reasons, then we are kinda forced to vote you out. Leaving you in if we don't trust your dayplay introduces a world of WIFOM. Sorry. I think your role sounds very interesting, and was hoping we could see it in action as the game went on, but the dayplay presented by FoU seems to me to be more towny than the dayplay you have presented, and if necessary there are ways to check if FoU is actually town mechanically, and there aren't any for you.
Post by: TricMagic on July 13, 2022, 07:04:26 pm
Post by: Lidku on July 13, 2022, 07:05:40 pm
TricMagic for his general strange behavior this game.
Egan & Fallacy in the same row of things that are either/or here for me. I'm just generally confused about this whole "Miller" phenomenon in general and the fact that it can misrepresent someone's alignment to read as something else (maybe some trauma from the last game O_o).
I'm leaning to maybe change my vote to Egan, to just end this very drawn out D1, but I'm afraid to be the one to hammer without consensus..
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2022, 07:08:26 pm
I mean hell, I'm not even particularly confident in my Fal vote, I just couldn't decide on anybody better.
And yeah it might have been silly to send in a Challenge Mode role prompt when I don't even know what I'm doing.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2022, 07:09:47 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2022, 07:10:51 pm
I'm pretty sure you have consensus dude. But hold off if you think the remaining hours of day could have some insights.
I'm leaning to maybe change my vote to Egan, to just end this very drawn out D1, but I'm afraid to be the one to hammer without consensus..
Post by: TricMagic on July 13, 2022, 07:12:16 pm
I'm leaning towards Lidku as the day nears it's end though.
Post by: Lenglon on July 13, 2022, 07:12:45 pm
I'm leaning towards Lidku as the day nears it's end though.Could you go into detail as to why?
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2022, 07:14:16 pm
Post by: TricMagic on July 13, 2022, 07:14:56 pm
I can't really read Fal though, and like you said, Egan's dayplay has not been all that good.
Post by: Shakerag on July 13, 2022, 07:15:25 pm
The only ability I have potential access to is Great War>Deception is Truth, which could let me steal an Ability. No clue how effective it would be though.
I'm leaning towards Lidku as the day nears it's end though.
That's worth noting for D2, but if you switch your vote with 45 minutes remaining you'll give us a tie.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2022, 07:16:33 pm
My reads for suspicion go like this:Personally, I want to see how TricMagic and Shakerag act on Day 2. Along with some Spin. And Knightwing. Actually I want to see how everyone acts on Day 2. Because while I'm pretty sure NJW2000 is the second mafia player, I'm not as certain about him as I am about Egan. More information will still be helpful.
TricMagic for his general strange behavior this game.
Oh, yeah, no. No ties. Ties very bad. Unacceptable, that.The only ability I have potential access to is Great War>Deception is Truth, which could let me steal an Ability. No clue how effective it would be though.
I'm leaning towards Lidku as the day nears it's end though.
That's worth noting for D2, but if you switch your vote with 45 minutes remaining you'll give us a tie.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2022, 07:16:59 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 13, 2022, 07:17:08 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2022, 07:17:58 pm
I'm not really sure why Fal decided that me and NJW are scumteam, though. Because we both used the same stupid argument? Does that really tie us together?You following NJW's lead and exhibiting similar behavior patterns. Like I said, I'm not 100% confident NJW is the other scum, it just seems very likely.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2022, 07:18:40 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 13, 2022, 07:19:30 pm
Personally, I want to see how TricMagic and Shakerag act on Day 2. Along with some Spin. And Knightwing. Actually I want to see how everyone acts on Day 2. Because while I'm pretty sure NJW2000 is the second mafia player, I'm not as certain about him as I am about Egan. More information will still be helpful.
As far as progressing to a goal, D1 is usually a wash and town is lynched. But on D2 we've had a round of night actions (and probably a scum NK) and we can start analyzing D1 behaviours in light of the roleflips.
Post by: Shakerag on July 13, 2022, 07:20:15 pm
What will your opinion on NJW change to when I flip as town, then?
Didn't you say you were super miller so wouldn't you flip as scum?
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2022, 07:23:10 pm
What will your opinion on NJW change to when I flip as town, then?
Didn't you say you were super miller so wouldn't you flip as scum?
Doesn't apply to flips. Just powers. You can go back and check my original post, it's just powers.
I think that lying flips is too bastard for this game.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2022, 07:23:17 pm
What will your opinion on NJW change to when I flip as town, then?If you flip as town, I'll view NJW with less but not no suspicion. I'll probably start looking at Maximum Spin and Knightwing more heavily than I otherwise would, too.
Post by: Shakerag on July 13, 2022, 07:23:49 pm
What will your opinion on NJW change to when I flip as town, then?
Didn't you say you were super miller so wouldn't you flip as scum?
Doesn't apply to flips. Just powers. You can go back and check my original post, it's just powers.
I think that lying flips is too bastard for this game.
Huh, ok. That still seems like too much of a dick move for wubba to do but I guess we'll see.
Post by: Shakerag on July 13, 2022, 07:25:03 pm
Post by: Lidku on July 13, 2022, 07:26:02 pm
The only ability I have potential access to is Great War>Deception is Truth, which could let me steal an Ability.
Wait, what? That ability is literally the ability I had last game; when I was a Cybertronian.
Your correct in saying that it allows you to steal abilities, but what about you saying that your role allows you to take abilities from previous games? Because my Cybertronian-Decepticon role did not allow me to do that.
Also, it's a role that generally doesn't add up with the role title you have (I'm an entire Game of BYOR Mafia). Usually when you submit a role to Webadict, he keeps it thematic to what is sent to him. You claims are becoming increasingly bizarre TricMagic..
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2022, 07:27:48 pm
I'd support that line of inquiry.What will your opinion on NJW change to when I flip as town, then?If you flip as town, I'll view NJW with less but not no suspicion. I'll probably start looking at Maximum Spin and Knightwing more heavily than I otherwise would, too.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 13, 2022, 07:29:42 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2022, 07:30:48 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2022, 07:31:19 pm
I’m confused, what’s going on? Do people still want Egan out?Yes, we do. Egan is just playing nice in the last few minutes because the vote is pretty much settled. It's worthwhile to discuss future days in this case.
I don't, clearly.Your objection is noted.
Post by: Lenglon on July 13, 2022, 07:33:03 pm
I’m confused, what’s going on? Do people still want Egan out?short answer: yes. doing anything else at this point will just put the entire town into a deadlock and introduce a world of WIFOM. I am expecting Egan to flip town, but I don't see a better option at this time, especially with so little left in the day.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2022, 07:34:45 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 13, 2022, 07:35:26 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on July 13, 2022, 07:35:43 pm
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 13, 2022, 07:36:00 pm
You know I’m not that smart.
Egan
Post by: Shakerag on July 13, 2022, 07:36:46 pm
👁👄👁
You know I’m not that smart.
Egan
Feeling bandwagon-y, but we'll see what D2 brings.
Post by: Shakerag on July 13, 2022, 07:37:47 pm
Post by: webadict on July 13, 2022, 08:06:30 pm
The agents discuss and argue. Mother Hen stops in for a brief moment to calm them down, but as the fires die down, the group settles on Egan_BW. Egan_BW steps forward, unpinning his feather, and walks into the separated room. 5 minutes, then 10, then 20. Mother Hen exits the room, covered in blood, before she shakes her head.
"I'm afraid you've caught the wrong one. This little chicken is innocent."
As you process what you've done, a crane slams into Maximum Spin, picking him up above the rest of you. You look around for what could be causing this, but sparks fly from the lights, and they go out.
Vote Count
------------------------
Egan_BW - 6 - TricMagic* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390157#msg8390157), Maximum Spin* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390160#msg8390160), FallacyofUrist* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390192#msg8390192), Shakerag* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390198#msg8390198), Lenglon* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390215#msg8390215), Knightwing64* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390258#msg8390258),
FallacyofUrist - 1 - NJW2000* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389993#msg8389993),
TricMagic - 1 - Lidku* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390057#msg8390057),
Knightwing64 - 0 -
Lenglon - 0 -
Lidku - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
NJW2000 - 0 -
Shakerag - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 2 - Egan_BW* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390235#msg8390235),
Egan_BW has been executed.
Egan_BW was a Really Bad Day Challenge (Town).
Maximum Spin is no longer targetable by Town Players.
It is now Night. Please send your Actions to me within 24 hours.
Quote
Egan_BW
Role: Really Bad Day Challenge
Alignment: Town
Abilities:
{PT} (Auto) Challenge Mode: Alignment Inspects show you as Mafia. Survey Actions show your Action as the Mafiakill. Track Actions show your target as any Players that died this Phase.
Tags: Trigger
(Auto) Pool Points: During Day 1, you may Choose up to three (3) of the following Abilities and add them to your role:
- (Auto) Pretty: You have an additional vote.
- (Auto) Good Memory: You cannot have your Abilities Removed or Stolen, and you cannot be Bussed, Redirected, or Blocked.
- (1-Shot, Auto) Tough: The first time a Mafiakill Action targets you, it fails.
- {P0} (1-Shot, Night) Driving [target/self]: You drive the target or yourself out of Town, becoming untargetable for the Night.
- {P10} (1-Shot, Night) Fabrication [target/self]: You give the target a toolkit, allowing them to Restore a Shot.
(Auto) Pretty: You have an additional vote.
(Auto) Good Memory: You cannot have your Abilities Removed or Stolen, and you cannot be Bussed, Redirected, or Blocked.
(1-Shot, Auto) Tough: The first time a Mafiakill Action targets you, it fails.
Post by: webadict on July 14, 2022, 11:19:10 pm
“I suppose I’m the Mother Hen Today,” she says. She puts the crown on her head. “That means we all do what I say. There’s a new pecking order here now!”
And then she laughed.
No one died.
Lenglon has become Ruler until the end of the Day.
Vote Count
------------------------
FallacyofUrist - 0 -
Knightwing64 - 0 -
Lenglon - 0 -
Lidku - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
NJW2000 - 0 -
Shakerag - 0 -
TricMagic - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 1 - Lenglon,
1 to Hammer. Day ends on July 18, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (~92 hours remaining).
It is now Day.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 14, 2022, 11:29:43 pm
I originally just wanted to get in first to say this:
That thing with the crane? That wasn't my power. I don't know where it came from, and I consider it suspicious, especially that it occurred after I said I would be commuting.
But then, in my night resolution PM, I learned something even more fascinating.
FallacyofUrist used a Mafiakill on me.
Unfortunately for him, I was serious about being hidden. Even more unfortunately for him, I didn't let on that I learn certain actions that are used on me while doing so. FallacyofUrist, you tried to kill me! After I supported your possibly being town against NJW! At least now I see why you said that your actions will come up as "Mafiakill".
The action in question is called Mug, and it's clearly labelled a "Mafiakill".
(Yes I did read the post and saw that I don't have a vote today, but that's not going to stop me from using red text for DRAMA.)
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 14, 2022, 11:38:32 pm
... Heck, even if I could choose myself, I'd probably choose her instead, just out of a lack of confidence in my own abilities.
I maintain that Egan's behavior, aside from the hyper miller claim, was a mass of scummy tells, notably including the complete lack of suspicion. Regardless, they were town, and role flips are sane, so we can't really doubt that.
As I mentioned earlier, Egan actually being town means my confidence in NJW as scum has dropped (not by a ton, but somewhat) and I want to look more into Maximum Spin and Shakerag.
Not that I can vote, but that's not really an excuse to be inactive. Words are still power, even if the single vote is the most powerful of all.
Notably, nobody is dead. That's both a good thing in that the mafiakill failed (or was used on something delayed, but let's not contemplate that without evidence), and a bad thing in that we have less data.
I did some reading during the Night, and I think Maximum Spin had the least justified vote on Egan.
Tric elim isn't something I want, I want Egan or FoU.I'll take you up on that. Egan_BW
This seemed like a vote for the sake of voting, not for the sake of eliminating scum. Where was the justification?
I stayed up late to get the first post, and I guess it worked out.
I originally just wanted to get in first to say this:
That thing with the crane? That wasn't my power. I don't know where it came from, and I consider it suspicious, especially that it occurred after I said I would be commuting.
... Wait, what? That was the whole reason I acted on you in the first place! I thought that you... oh jeez. Okay, now I need to seriously reconsider.
FallacyofUrist used a Mafiakill on me.Yes, that is correct. Well, not the 'try to kill you' part. But I did act on you last night. Regardless, I am town.
Unfortunately for him, I was serious about being hidden. Even more unfortunately for him, I didn't let on that I learn certain actions that are used on me while doing so. FallacyofUrist, you tried to kill me! After I supported your possibly being town against NJW! At least now I see why you said that your actions will come up as "Mafiakill".
The action in question is called Mug, and it's clearly labelled a "Mafiakill".
I also received a hint to your role last night, most likely thanks to your ability. I'm assuming you don't want me to disclose it, at least for the time being?
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 14, 2022, 11:42:51 pm
Yes, that is correct. Well, not the 'try to kill you' part. But I did act on you last night. Regardless, I am town.Dude, I get told what the action does. Don't even. It kills. It literally says that it kills.
Besides,
Maximum Spin is no longer targetable by Town Players.[/b][/font]and you admit you acted on me.
Post by: Lidku on July 14, 2022, 11:48:06 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 14, 2022, 11:48:47 pm
When I said all my actions appear to be mafiakills, that's because they are in fact mafiakill abilities. They have the tag and everything.
However, my auto ability has two components.
Firstly, it lets me use abilities as though I was mafia-aligned, which includes using mafiakills. Turns out it also let me bypass that crane-shield thingamajig.
Secondly, it makes my mafiakill abilities not kill.
... I suspect if a mafia member manages to steal one of my actions, they will be able to kill with it, unfortunately.
Can anyone explain to me what it means by Lenglon being "Ruler for the Day"?Lenglon is the only person who can vote, and the only person whose vote counts. For this Day only.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 14, 2022, 11:52:08 pm
This seemed like a vote for the sake of voting, not for the sake of eliminating scum. Where was the justification?I thought Egan was more likely than you to be scum, based on my understanding of your behavior. Obviously this turned out to be wrong.
I do have a habit of placing votes in these kinds of ways, sometimes acting like it's a joke, or often offering to "go along with" someone else, but, as I've said before, I promise I only place votes when I mean them. In this case, for example, I put it like that because NJW2000 had been pushing for a vote on you the whole time, but then said that as if he was open to either, so I wanted to see how far he meant it.
Yes. I acted on you. Regardless, I am town. My role is a flaming bucket of WIFOM, unfortunately....
When I said all my actions appear to be mafiakills, that's because they are in fact mafiakill abilities. They have the tag and everything.
However, my auto ability has two components.
Firstly, it lets me use abilities as though I was mafia-aligned, which includes using mafiakills. Turns out it also let me bypass that crane-shield thingamajig.
Secondly, it makes my mafiakill abilities not kill.
... I suspect if a mafia member manages to steal one of my actions, they will be able to kill with it, unfortunately.
I'm... well, I guess it doesn't matter whether I believe this or not, since I don't have The Vote. If I hypothetically pretend I believe you, does this imply that "Mug" is a real mafiakill ability the mafia also have?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 14, 2022, 11:58:30 pm
I'm... well, I guess it doesn't matter whether I believe this or not, since I don't have The Vote. If I hypothetically pretend I believe you, does this imply that "Mug" is a real mafiakill ability the mafia also have?Fortunately not. Well, probably not. Nothing about my role suggests I'm copying mafiakills. My mafiakills are my own mafiakills. Which is good because scum don't have them and bad because I don't have theft immunity.
Oh right, I guess I should be fair and actually answer your question, at least for the sake of other people.This... is a reasonable enough justification.This seemed like a vote for the sake of voting, not for the sake of eliminating scum. Where was the justification?I thought Egan was more likely than you to be scum, based on my understanding of your behavior. Obviously this turned out to be wrong.
I do have a habit of placing votes in these kinds of ways, sometimes acting like it's a joke, or often offering to "go along with" someone else, but, as I've said before, I promise I only place votes when I mean them. In this case, for example, I put it like that because NJW2000 had been pushing for a vote on you the whole time, but then said that as if he was open to either, so I wanted to see how far he meant it.
Ugh, and I was so sure you were scum, too. Using the crane thing to hide while you chose someone to mafiakill, sure nobody could detect you due to being untargetable. I can't really make that argument at this point, though.
You get a promotion to likely town in my readometer. Unfortunately.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 15, 2022, 12:01:28 am
Ugh, and I was so sure you were scum, too. Using the crane thing to hide while you chose someone to mafiakill, sure nobody could detect you due to being untargetable. I can't really make that argument at this point, though.Nope. I'm actually a commuter, and... well, you've seen what happens when I'm targetted while hiding. Under certain circumstances I can take other actions not to be disclosed yet, but those circumstances haven't applied. Actually, because of you, I kind of lost out on that chance for now, because the thing that you know happened was supposed to happen to me.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 15, 2022, 12:10:22 am
Nope. I'm actually a commuter, and... well, you've seen what happens when I'm targetted while hiding. Under certain circumstances I can take other actions not to be disclosed yet, but those circumstances haven't applied. Actually, because of you, I kind of lost out on that chance for now, because the thing that you know happened was supposed to happen to me.... Oops. Sorry. If it helps, at least I think you're town now?
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 15, 2022, 12:13:16 am
That's real great, how many votes do you have today again? :PNope. I'm actually a commuter, and... well, you've seen what happens when I'm targetted while hiding. Under certain circumstances I can take other actions not to be disclosed yet, but those circumstances haven't applied. Actually, because of you, I kind of lost out on that chance for now, because the thing that you know happened was supposed to happen to me.... Oops. Sorry. If it helps, at least I think you're town now?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 15, 2022, 12:14:20 am
Same as you.That's real great, how many votes do you have today again? :PNope. I'm actually a commuter, and... well, you've seen what happens when I'm targetted while hiding. Under certain circumstances I can take other actions not to be disclosed yet, but those circumstances haven't applied. Actually, because of you, I kind of lost out on that chance for now, because the thing that you know happened was supposed to happen to me.... Oops. Sorry. If it helps, at least I think you're town now?
Post by: Lenglon on July 15, 2022, 12:22:39 am
Lidku - you mentioned yesterday that you find it easier to engage in the more mechanical analysis part of the game, I'd like to hear your input in what you think happened last night between Max and FoU, and I'd also like to hear what you think of people's actions near the end of day yesterday, now that we know that Egan was town. From what you were saying before, this should be right up your alley.
Post by: Lidku on July 15, 2022, 02:54:16 am
Lidku - you mentioned yesterday that you find it easier to engage in the more mechanical analysis part of the game, I'd like to hear your input in what you think happened last night between Max and FoU, and I'd also like to hear what you think of people's actions near the end of day yesterday, now that we know that Egan was town. From what you were saying before, this should be right up your alley.
I find FallacyofUrist very suspicious at the moment, for the fact that he was able to target someone who the Town apparently wasn't allowed to target. Also, FallacyofUrist outright admits to being able to use abilities on Maximum Spin, along with dubious claims that he has "Mafiakill" but it doesn't actually let him kill at all. Maybe he's lying and he was blocked by someone?
But I also find it strange on the reasons HOW Maximum Spin got to be able to not be targetable at all.. it's really odd.. Did someone target him that way, just so he could even look more suspicious, considering the fact on how much you suspected him as scum in the beginning? Isolate him? I'm generally not sure.
As for everyone else, I cannot be sure until everyone begins posting what they have done during the Night. I myself just did nothing last night, as I felt I had no good options to do anything with my abilities that time.
Post by: NJW2000 on July 15, 2022, 05:21:08 am
Yes, that is correct. Well, not the 'try to kill you' part. But I did act on you last night. Regardless, I am town.Let me get this straight. You have an auto that makes all your mafiakill powers not kill?
And you targeted Max? A person not targetable by town players? Is there a reason you're not being a bit more specific about how your auto works, given how this looks? Yes/no answer to that one would be fine.
Importantly, did you actually hit Max?
By the way...
MaximumSpin: do you have any abilities that action? I'm guessing you must.
There's something else that I heard in the night that I need explained, but I might wait to see if anyone claims it first, I guess.
I'm starting to really doubt the advisability of doing high-powered semi-bastard BYOR games for beginners.
Post by: Lenglon on July 15, 2022, 06:30:03 am
So why did you want me outed as having an inspect?
Post by: Lenglon on July 15, 2022, 07:35:06 am
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 15, 2022, 07:56:59 am
My role is God of Mafia
Lenglon is a ruler because I used a one shot night ability on her called “The Royal We”
Post by: Lidku on July 15, 2022, 08:36:38 am
Eh, I might as well reveal my role too.
My role is God of Mafia
Lenglon is a ruler because I used a one shot night ability on her called “The Royal We”
That's interesting. I thought it was an ability she gave herself.
What was the particular reason for giving her this ability? Is it because you trust her the most as Town, or something else?
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 15, 2022, 08:43:19 am
Eh, I might as well reveal my role too.
My role is God of Mafia
Lenglon is a ruler because I used a one shot night ability on her called “The Royal We”
I trusted the most as town.
That's interesting. I thought it was an ability she gave herself.
What was the particular reason for giving her this ability? Is it because you trust her the most as Town, or something else?
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 15, 2022, 08:43:50 am
Yeah, I trusted her the most as town, and the ability couldn’t self target, so….
Post by: Shakerag on July 15, 2022, 09:25:58 am
I'm now acting as her bodyguard, so the next kill action she is targeted with will kill me instead. Also my ability specifically mentions I can only use it on people on the same team as me.
I didn't expect it, but webadict send me a PM overnight that my use of the ability was successful.
Post by: TricMagic on July 15, 2022, 09:33:47 am
That said, I did nothing last night, even if I had some misunderstanding about my role.
Here's the list of roles from last game. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/15f43w-WKOU6TZVnVwivhCSyWdur-HDsnZIjyIA_VQqk/edit) I'm pretty much immune to nightkills now. And lynches. Well, unless I'm lying, but I hope to prove myself town enough my results can be trusted. I can use Sketch to confirm night actions, as an example. Alternatively, the Crystal Ball to redirect actions onto me.
To Webadict, if Restless Dead give an extra vote. Can this turn the tide of a 1v1? Not saying I have it, or that you can't just PM me the answer.
One thing I can't copy is Kill actions. Or actions that have a prerequisite, though more the fact I'd need to copy both.
I can also pick up Introspection to Track, or Balance in All Things if I want to try and game a coin-flip. Or Dragon Cloak to just outright block non-super actions. {P-1} is a ell of a rug.
Post by: NJW2000 on July 15, 2022, 09:58:52 am
NJW: I claim it, but I don't have any feedback on the results, you're the only one with that. What did the alignment-inspect of FoU, who claimed that his actions, and noteably ONLY his actions, would come up as Mafia, say?I didn't... you outed yourself as having an inspect. I was going to see if anyone wanted to claim it as a one-shot, a passive, a weird part of their role, whatever. Whispering an alignment is usually a townie thing to do, and someone might have wanted the credit. I think I made it clear that I was letting people claim it, not demanding they do so. In any case, I really doubt having an inspect is that rare this game.
So why did you want me outed as having an inspect?
I thought it was to do with the weird night interaction between Web and Fallacy. If nobody claimed it, I'd still have announced it for very obvious reasons. Anyway, @everyone:
According to the night PM I received from Webadict, FallacyofUrist is town.
I don't know yet if that can be 100% trusted, I'm waiting on a reply.
The only way I can confirm what I did during the night is by giving a very detailed account of FoU's blocking/mafiakill action. My role isn't that powerful N1.
So: Mug is P3/P7 and blocks actions as well as killing the target. FoU should be ok with revealing this, and I'm fairly sure it's a 1-shot anyhow.
I guess that fits with FoU's story.
Post by: Lenglon on July 15, 2022, 10:28:24 am
I used it on FoU because I wanted to clear up everybody's WIFOM about FoU, and sent the result to you because you were the leader of pushing the case against FoU. I didn't claim it initially because I wanted to see your initial reaction and thoughts while you were lacking that information.
Post by: Shakerag on July 15, 2022, 10:41:50 am
According to the night PM I received from Webadict, FallacyofUrist is town.
Ok, maybe I missed something on my re-read but this only further confuses me as to how FallacyofUrist was able to target MaximumSpin...
Post by: Lenglon on July 15, 2022, 10:48:01 am
FoU - all actions are mafiakills, use abilities as though mafia-aligned, including mafiakills. mafiakill abilities do not kill. Targeted Max N1, unrevealed interaction with Max, showed as town to Lenglon's inspect.
Knightwing - Kingmaker
Lenglon - one-shot super-inspect (used on FoU(town)), results were given to NJW
Lidku - no action N1
Max - commuter, did NOT perform crane-action, 1-shot mafiakill vest (used), knows what action is attempted upon them, unrevealed interaction with FoU.
NJW - inspected FoU's action, received Lenglon's inspection's results, claims result shows FoU as town.
Shake - bodyguard same team, used on Lenglon.
Tric - omega-JOAT
is this correct?
Post by: webadict on July 15, 2022, 10:59:09 am
Web: could Mamobo please still track who the people with 0 vote power are currently voting for, and simply have their vote be valued at 0, instead of not listing their votes at all for today?I can. I don't like it, but I can.
Post by: Lenglon on July 15, 2022, 11:11:25 am
It would help me out if you did please, I would like the rest of the town to have input, and to avoid a repeat of the Revolution game where when I had the only vote that mattered everyone else in the game quit trying to scumhunt.Web: could Mamobo please still track who the people with 0 vote power are currently voting for, and simply have their vote be valued at 0, instead of not listing their votes at all for today?I can. I don't like it, but I can.
Post by: Shakerag on July 15, 2022, 11:14:23 am
Claims summary:
FoU - all actions are mafiakills, use abilities as though mafia-aligned, including mafiakills. mafiakill abilities do not kill. Targeted Max N1, unrevealed interaction with Max, showed as town to Lenglon's inspect.
Knightwing - Kingmaker
Lenglon - one-shot super-inspect (used on FoU(town)), results were given to NJW
Lidku - no action N1
Max - commuter, did NOT perform crane-action, 1-shot mafiakill vest (used), knows what action is attempted upon them, unrevealed interaction with FoU.
NJW - inspected FoU's action, received Lenglon's inspection's results, claims result shows FoU as town.
Shake - bodyguard same team, used on Lenglon.
Tric - omega-JOAT
is this correct?
In so far as mine, I think so, although I'm asking webadict some additional questions. Seems like I could also have gotten a success message if I was redirected to a different valid target?
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 15, 2022, 11:15:07 am
Importantly, did you actually hit Max?I just want to confirm the answer is yes. If he hadn't, the Thing We Both Say Happened wouldn't have happened.
Quote
MaximumSpin: do you have any abilities that action? I'm guessing you must.Not at this juncture. Which means I'll presumably be hidden again tonight unless someone gives me an action.
So: Mug is P3/P7 and blocks actions as well as killing the target. [...] I'm fairly sure it's a 1-shotThat's what it does and the priority, but it isn't 1-shot. It's shotted, but he has more of it.
Max - commuter, did NOT perform crane-action, 1-shot mafiakill vest (used), knows what action is attempted upon them, unrevealed interaction with FoU.Not exactly. I don't have some kind of vest, it's just the commuting - if I just kept commuting and never did anything useful, I'm unkillable without a super and mafia would have to either use a super or live with me in their lylo field. (Or get me lynched. Please don't do that.) And I don't learn all actions used on me, unfortunately, only ones which trigger my role in a certain way.
is this correct?
I don't really know how to feel about this inspect result, but I do admit Fallacy's role claim is something I could believe he would ask for and something I could believe webadict would do. So I guess I have to spiritually unvote. I do kind of want to point out that we only have Fallacy's word that the kill wouldn't have really killed if I hadn't been hidden; it was presented to me entirely as if it would, including in flavour. But at this point, Lenglon's the one who had the inspect, so Lenglon's the one who can decide if the result is probably right. And sorry if you didn't really try to kill me, Fallacy. You must understand that everything said you did.
Post by: Lenglon on July 15, 2022, 11:26:48 am
But at this point, Lenglon's the one who had the inspect, so Lenglon's the one who can decide if the result is probably right.I have made public every piece of information I have from that inspect. It's a P (-1), inspects target 1, gives the results to target 2, 1-shot. It was used on FoU as target 1, sent results to NJW as target 2. NJW says the result he recieved was that FoU is town. So you are equally as qualified as I am to say if it's a reliable result or not.
Post by: TricMagic on July 15, 2022, 11:32:35 am
Post by: Lenglon on July 15, 2022, 11:37:05 am
Post by: NJW2000 on July 15, 2022, 11:44:07 am
Web has told me abilities may cause messages to be inaccurate, so I don't 100% trust the result about FoU. It does tell us something about what Lenglon did last night though, so that's useful.
Claiming no actions on a night with no kill isn't particularly scummy to my mind - in fact, scum very frequently have other abilities allowing them to not kill and take an action, so it would be strange if they neither killed nor acted.
What I'm trying to figure out is how come no mafiakill occurred.
Post by: TricMagic on July 15, 2022, 11:47:22 am
I stayed up late to get the first post, and I guess it worked out.
I originally just wanted to get in first to say this:
That thing with the crane? That wasn't my power. I don't know where it came from, and I consider it suspicious, especially that it occurred after I said I would be commuting.
But then, in my night resolution PM, I learned something even more fascinating.
FallacyofUrist used a Mafiakill on me.
Unfortunately for him, I was serious about being hidden. Even more unfortunately for him, I didn't let on that I learn certain actions that are used on me while doing so. FallacyofUrist, you tried to kill me! After I supported your possibly being town against NJW! At least now I see why you said that your actions will come up as "Mafiakill".
The action in question is called Mug, and it's clearly labelled a "Mafiakill".
(Yes I did read the post and saw that I don't have a vote today, but that's not going to stop me from using red text for DRAMA.)
I'll assume this is true, and go from there. Fal used a Mafiakill action. It failed, obviously.
On the other side, Fal got confirmed as Town, by the whispering. This is contingent on NJW being town and Always Godfather not being the actual role..
Shakerag has effectively confirmed Lenglon as town with his claim. Knightwing's given Lenglon the power of the King. Based on memory right now, I'd put Shakerag, Lenglon, and Knightwing as Core Town for now. This means Lidku, NJW, Fal, and Max, plus myself.
Lidku claims to have done nothing. So that leaves him open to framing.
Fal actioned on Max, this is pretty much confirmed outside shenanigans. NJW inspected Fal, apparently. Notably, that would mean that Mafia didn't try and kill anyone last night, as there are no claimed protections. Fal's the only one with a kill action on record.
Lidku, what are your thoughts on my reasoning?
Post by: TricMagic on July 15, 2022, 11:51:35 am
... Of note, the crane is likely either me or Lidku. And would likely be mafia-aligned to prevent protection from kills.Yes, that is correct. Well, not the 'try to kill you' part. But I did act on you last night. Regardless, I am town.Dude, I get told what the action does. Don't even. It kills. It literally says that it kills.
Besides,Maximum Spin is no longer targetable by Town Players.[/b][/font]and you admit you acted on me.
Post by: TricMagic on July 15, 2022, 12:52:19 pm
Claims summary:
FoU - all actions are mafiakills, use abilities as though mafia-aligned, including mafiakills. mafiakill abilities do not kill. Targeted Max N1, unrevealed interaction with Max, showed as town to Lenglon's inspect.
Knightwing - Kingmaker
Lenglon - one-shot super-inspect (used on FoU(town)), results were given to NJW
Lidku - no action N1
Max - commuter, did NOT perform crane-action, 1-shot mafiakill vest (used), knows what action is attempted upon them, unrevealed interaction with FoU.
NJW - inspected FoU's action, received Lenglon's inspection's results, claims result shows FoU as town.
Shake - bodyguard same team, used on Lenglon.
Tric - omega-JOAT
is this correct?
... Right now, I'm paranoid of webadict's messing with mechainics. But I can inspect NJW tonight, so.. Right now Lidku and I are the only ones with no night actions, so voting one of us out would make sense to narrow down the list of suspects.
Post by: NJW2000 on July 15, 2022, 12:59:52 pm
Mafia can just do a different action, or do something to sneakily set up a kill. If it's Lenglon/KnightWing, mafia essentially did give themselves a kill last night.
Post by: TricMagic on July 15, 2022, 01:05:17 pm
Tric - do you mind giving a summary of your analysis of everyone and the overall gamestate we're in? Also, why did you perform no actions last night?
Missed this question during my analysis. Was a bit hurried since I had to go shopping. Already answered it though, mostly.
So, I've either picked up Restless Dead, Expertise(if Mafia), or Life Creation(Both). If I was Mafia I would have probably done Introspection, confirming my role and tracking someone.
... Or Sketch, which would also prove my action and confirm someone else's. Could also pick up "An Entire Mind Game", but that's a fundamentally mafia ability.
Restless Dead could also be a Mafia action, but I would be expecting to go down hard, and tunneling even harder. And would pick it up on Night 2, not Night 1. (Well, end of day 2/1.. It's a day action that resolves at it's end. I would prefer you give me warning before you hammer, Lenglon. Cause I need to submit it before day ends.)
I'm mostly asking others which ability I should pick up and use. While Redirection exists, Tracking and Alignment checking are things I could do. And Tracking confirms my own action tomorrow night, unless I picked up "Balancing Act". (Useless as Town as my actions are one-shot, super powerful as Scum since I'd have doubled actions, able to kill and create an alibi. And it would go well with Sketch N1.)
Again, why is not performing a night action on a kill-less night suspect, when nobody's claimed a block or protect that would have been likely to interfere with you or Lidku?The main issue is the Crane NJW. It prevents town from targeting them. Come the next morning, someone tried to kill Max. It's a sneaky way to try and bypass Max's protection. Had they picked Lenglon up with the crane we'd be missing her today.
Mafia can just do a different action, or do something to sneakily set up a kill. If it's Lenglon/KnightWing, mafia essentially did give themselves a kill last night.
Post by: NJW2000 on July 15, 2022, 01:12:48 pm
Post by: Lidku on July 15, 2022, 02:02:44 pm
I stayed up late to get the first post, and I guess it worked out.
I originally just wanted to get in first to say this:
That thing with the crane? That wasn't my power. I don't know where it came from, and I consider it suspicious, especially that it occurred after I said I would be commuting.
But then, in my night resolution PM, I learned something even more fascinating.
FallacyofUrist used a Mafiakill on me.
Unfortunately for him, I was serious about being hidden. Even more unfortunately for him, I didn't let on that I learn certain actions that are used on me while doing so. FallacyofUrist, you tried to kill me! After I supported your possibly being town against NJW! At least now I see why you said that your actions will come up as "Mafiakill".
The action in question is called Mug, and it's clearly labelled a "Mafiakill".
(Yes I did read the post and saw that I don't have a vote today, but that's not going to stop me from using red text for DRAMA.)
I'll assume this is true, and go from there. Fal used a Mafiakill action. It failed, obviously.
On the other side, Fal got confirmed as Town, by the whispering. This is contingent on NJW being town and Always Godfather not being the actual role..
Shakerag has effectively confirmed Lenglon as town with his claim. Knightwing's given Lenglon the power of the King. Based on memory right now, I'd put Shakerag, Lenglon, and Knightwing as Core Town for now. This means Lidku, NJW, Fal, and Max, plus myself.
Lidku claims to have done nothing. So that leaves him open to framing.
Fal actioned on Max, this is pretty much confirmed outside shenanigans. NJW inspected Fal, apparently. Notably, that would mean that Mafia didn't try and kill anyone last night, as there are no claimed protections. Fal's the only one with a kill action on record.
Lidku, what are your thoughts on my reasoning?
Sorry for the lack D1 of activity, but I'm mobile right now and can briefly reply to this:
Your reasoning and line of N1 events line up somewhat good, if I must admit.
Although I'm confused about what you say here:
Quote from: TricMagic
Notably, that would mean that Mafia didn't try and kill anyone last night, as there are no claimed protections.
But then NJW rightly points out:
Quote from: NJW
Wait... I may be missing something here, but how do you know someone tried to kill Max, Tric?
From he gets that from this statement from you:
Quote from: TricMagic
The main issue is the Crane NJW. It prevents town from targeting them. Come the next morning, someone tried to kill Max.
Why the sudden switch up in your theory of N1? That's strange.
And also, in general, I'm still really suspicious about the claimed abilities of your role, and I don't think it's OP as your suggesting it as. You're telling me you genuinely can in an unlimited fashion just grab other abilities from the last game? That doesn't sound very balanced.. I personally just think it's somewhat fantastical.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 15, 2022, 02:31:55 pm
Post by: TricMagic on July 15, 2022, 02:49:24 pm
Also, changing theories isn't how I would describe it. Right now there isn't a unified accounting of what happened last night. If Fal is mafia, then the Crane took their target out of town's reach to protect, followed by Fal attempting to kill them. If Fal is town, then Mafia didn't kill anyone last night, nor attempt to. But that isn't in line with the use of the Crane. Fal being an altered Godfather makes more sense, but we can't actually trust that 100%.
Hence, it makes more sense to remove those without stated actions last night, as they are likely the ones to have used the Crane. I claimed yesterday though, and my actions are confirmable N2. You, Lidku, did not perform a night action, but we don't know why not.
The only other person it could be that did the Crane is likely NJW or myself, and I'm excluding me doing it for obvious reasons.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 15, 2022, 02:52:29 pm
As I have stated before, I can grab abilities from the last game, and if they're active they become 1-shot.The crane cannot possibly have been a night action, as it took place at the end of the previous day. It must have been a day action or maybe some kind of passive. In that case, anyone could've done it.
Also, changing theories isn't how I would describe it. Right now there isn't a unified accounting of what happened last night. If Fal is mafia, then the Crane took their target out of town's reach to protect, followed by Fal attempting to kill them. If Fal is town, then Mafia didn't kill anyone last night, nor attempt to. But that isn't in line with the use of the Crane. Fal being an altered Godfather makes more sense, but we can't actually trust that 100%.
Hence, it makes more sense to remove those without stated actions last night, as they are likely the ones to have used the Crane. I claimed yesterday though, and my actions are confirmable N2. You, Lidku, did not perform a night action, but we don't know why not.
The only other person it could be that did the Crane is likely NJW or myself, and I'm excluding me doing it for obvious reasons.
Post by: TricMagic on July 15, 2022, 02:57:36 pm
As I have stated before, I can grab abilities from the last game, and if they're active they become 1-shot.The crane cannot possibly have been a night action, as it took place at the end of the previous day. It must have been a day action or maybe some kind of passive. In that case, anyone could've done it.
Also, changing theories isn't how I would describe it. Right now there isn't a unified accounting of what happened last night. If Fal is mafia, then the Crane took their target out of town's reach to protect, followed by Fal attempting to kill them. If Fal is town, then Mafia didn't kill anyone last night, nor attempt to. But that isn't in line with the use of the Crane. Fal being an altered Godfather makes more sense, but we can't actually trust that 100%.
Hence, it makes more sense to remove those without stated actions last night, as they are likely the ones to have used the Crane. I claimed yesterday though, and my actions are confirmable N2. You, Lidku, did not perform a night action, but we don't know why not.
The only other person it could be that did the Crane is likely NJW or myself, and I'm excluding me doing it for obvious reasons.
That would need to be unbalanced by also allowing the Night Action to be done by a single player. If we go with the reasoning anyone could do it, then that brings you under suspicion as well. Not that it matters much, mechanically solving the game isn't really possible with the info we have. So we'd want to look at yesterday and today as to who's mafia. Or simply lynch Lidku or I as the only ones not to have a night action.
Lidku, can you give us a hint on what you'd bring to day 3?
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 15, 2022, 03:03:31 pm
That would need to be unbalanced by also allowing the Night Action to be done by a single player.I don't know what you mean by this.
Quote
If we go with the reasoning anyone could do it, then that brings you under suspicion as well.Well... yeah. Fallacy can probably confirm that I was hidden, although it's a little unclear to me based on the flavor what he would actually see. But in principle, ignoring that, it's not impossible that I could have done it and then lied about it for some reason. It just doesn't seem like it would be helpful in any way. You shouldn't trust my say-so completely. It's even possible, in principle, that Fallacy and I are pulling off some weird gambit; NJW confirmed the kill action, but I would 100% use a mafiakill on myself (well, have someone use it on me) while protected for the WIFOM value. I've seen it work!
So it's going to have to come down to who you actually believe. :P
Post by: NJW2000 on July 15, 2022, 03:38:11 pm
Wait... I may be missing something here, but how do you know someone tried to kill Max, Tric?You didn't answer this, TricMagic.
Please tell me you didn't TMI here...
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 15, 2022, 03:47:12 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 15, 2022, 03:50:12 pm
Yeah, that's also why I flagged the statement about "allowing the Night Action to be done by a single player". It certainly sounds like Tric is claiming mechanical knowledge of how the crane action worked. I'd really appreciate some clarification here.Wait... I may be missing something here, but how do you know someone tried to kill Max, Tric?You didn't answer this, TricMagic.
Please tell me you didn't TMI here...
If I was scum, who would I give rulership to the person who has voted me multiple times? If I was scum and afraid of dying, that would be a death sentence. If anything, I would give it to my scum partner and keep quiet about it while they give some inane reason about why they are the only one able to voteWell, you might do it so you could claim exactly that.
I agree that, if it were possible to give it to your partner, you probably would, which is why I suggested it might not have been. But again, I do think you're town, so I really don't think that's what happened. I just want to make sure everyone has a complete view of things.
Post by: TricMagic on July 15, 2022, 04:17:24 pm
Wait... I may be missing something here, but how do you know someone tried to kill Max, Tric?You didn't answer this, TricMagic.
Please tell me you didn't TMI here...
NJW? Max did just say Fal attempted to kill him. It failed. If we take this as truth and Max's ability protected them, then Fal was the one to do the nightkill.
... I don't really get how that could be a question, if it's true, then Fal attempted to kill Max, and would be in league with the crane operator. Mug being multi-shot, apparently, is also odd when all his actions are supposed to look like the mafia-kill. What's stopping them from actually being mafia kills?
Post by: TricMagic on July 15, 2022, 04:19:24 pm
Post by: webadict on July 15, 2022, 04:24:31 pm
------------------------
FallacyofUrist - 0 -
Knightwing64 - 0 -
Lenglon - 0 -
Lidku - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
NJW2000 - 0 -
Shakerag - 0 -
TricMagic - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 1 - FallacyofUrist, Knightwing64, Lenglon, Lidku, Maximum Spin* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390734#msg8390734), NJW2000, Shakerag, TricMagic,
1 to Hammer. Day ends on July 18, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (~75 hours remaining).
Italicized names have no votes.
Took me a couple hours, you're welcome, glad everyone's voting anyway!
Post by: EuchreJack on July 15, 2022, 04:39:49 pm
A Reads list should be ordered from Most Town to Most Scum. Exclude yourself, since presumably you are sure that you are Town.
This helps you organize your thoughts and critically analyze players as Town, or at least appear to be doing so if you are Mafia.
TOWN
Null
Scum
You can even add color coding, although Red tends to be a vote. But you should be voting your most scummy player, except when you don't want to hammer/almost hammer, or some other reason exists.]]
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 15, 2022, 04:50:54 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 15, 2022, 05:39:56 pm
Can we... take away the neutral advice privileges?
Yeah, that's really a personal preference thing in regards to the reads lists. I'd rather get lynched every game than be told I need to use a specific formatting.
Post by: Lidku on July 15, 2022, 05:46:32 pm
You, Lidku, did not perform a night action, but we don't know why not.
The only other person it could be that did the Crane is likely NJW or myself, and I'm excluding me doing it for obvious reasons.
I didn't do any night action because my role, Galactic Patrol Officer, primarily has "bus" abilities attached to it. I did not know who I should've targeted to have any effects go on me, so I simply chose not to do any action N1.
To answer Max, the Crane Action sounds like the same End of Day thing I've got. I pick an ability and get it at the end of the day, they pick someone to be removed from town actioning them. Including the target themselves maybe. But if Max's thing is an auto that wouldn't actually work, if it wasn't, then it might have worked.
You admittedly have a lot of bizarre claims on what your single role can do, TricMagic. You DID mention that you apparently can get abilities from the last BYOR game we had, but now suddenly you can "pick someone to be removed from Town actioning them"?
Why did you not mention this until now? And why, conveniently, did something as Maximum Spin being targeted at the very end of the day coincide with what you're disclosing one of your abilities can do?
Post by: Lidku on July 15, 2022, 05:50:11 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 15, 2022, 05:50:22 pm
Same. read lists can go in any order you please, and use any formatting you please. The important thing is that the information is there and that it is clearly presented. If you feel like presenting your read list as an animated gif of a conversation between sockpuppets then more power to you.Can we... take away the neutral advice privileges?
Yeah, that's really a personal preference thing in regards to the reads lists. I'd rather get lynched every game than be told I need to use a specific formatting.
Post by: TricMagic on July 15, 2022, 05:50:32 pm
You, Lidku, did not perform a night action, but we don't know why not.
The only other person it could be that did the Crane is likely NJW or myself, and I'm excluding me doing it for obvious reasons.
I didn't do any night action because my role, Galactic Patrol Officer, primarily has "bus" abilities attached to it. I did not know who I should've targeted to have any effects go on me, so I simply chose not to do any action N1.To answer Max, the Crane Action sounds like the same End of Day thing I've got. I pick an ability and get it at the end of the day, they pick someone to be removed from town actioning them. Including the target themselves maybe. But if Max's thing is an auto that wouldn't actually work, if it wasn't, then it might have worked.
You admittedly have a lot of bizarre claims on what your single role can do, TricMagic. You DID mention that you apparently can get abilities from the last BYOR game we had, but now suddenly you can "pick someone to be removed from Town actioning them"?
Why did you not mention this until now? And why, conveniently, did something as Maximum Spin being targeted at the very end of the day coincide with what you're disclosing one of your abilities can do?
OK Lidku, at this point you're definitely doing this on purpose. Comprehend!
Post by: EuchreJack on July 15, 2022, 06:01:05 pm
mod request to be more Neutral. Sorry about that.]]
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 15, 2022, 06:20:02 pm
A newbie who's never played a normal game of mafia and rolled miller didn't have a constructive playstyle D1? Nani-desu? Or whatever exclamation of surprise furries use?Sigh.
Well, I hope we all learned from the experience. I'm kinda disappointed in myself over that.
I successfully targeted Max, bypassing the crane thing, but my action failed. This does mean my action expenditure was refunded, though. I imagine the action failure was due to Max's own shenanigans.Yes, that is correct. Well, not the 'try to kill you' part. But I did act on you last night. Regardless, I am town.Let me get this straight. You have an auto that makes all your mafiakill powers not kill?
And you targeted Max? A person not targetable by town players? Is there a reason you're not being a bit more specific about how your auto works, given how this looks? Yes/no answer to that one would be fine.
Importantly, did you actually hit Max?
With regards to your question about my auto...
Yes. I acted on you. Regardless, I am town. My role is a flaming bucket of WIFOM, unfortunately.All the information you need is here.
When I said all my actions appear to be mafiakills, that's because they are in fact mafiakill abilities. They have the tag and everything.
However, my auto ability has two components.
Firstly, it lets me use abilities as though I was mafia-aligned, which includes using mafiakills. Turns out it also let me bypass that crane-shield thingamajig.
Secondly, it makes my mafiakill abilities not kill.
... I suspect if a mafia member manages to steal one of my actions, they will be able to kill with it, unfortunately.
At the start of the game, I initially suspected its sole purpose was to let me use my abilities and keep the WIFOM going, but it turns out it also has weird interactions.
Basically, I assumed Maximum Spin was going to kill someone from the safety of his crane thing (before I knew that wasn't his ability), so I decided to interfere.
The only way I can confirm what I did during the night is by giving a very detailed account of FoU's blocking/mafiakill action. My role isn't that powerful N1.Like so.
So: Mug is P3/P7 and blocks actions as well as killing the target. FoU should be ok with revealing this, and I'm fairly sure it's a 1-shot anyhow.
I guess that fits with FoU's story.
It would kill if not for my auto, though.
Claims summary:Correct on my end, yeah. My ability failed, likely due to Spin's thing. There was also another thing, but zips up my beak. Good courtesy to keep the other part secret.
FoU - all actions are mafiakills, use abilities as though mafia-aligned, including mafiakills. mafiakill abilities do not kill. Targeted Max N1, unrevealed interaction with Max, showed as town to Lenglon's inspect.
In so far as mine, I think so, although I'm asking webadict some additional questions. Seems like I could also have gotten a success message if I was redirected to a different valid target?If Shakerag was scum, it'd be easy enough to fake his claimed action. Since Lenglon is already on everyone's town core list he doesn't lose much by 'confirming' her. Not definitive, but worth pointing out.
That's what it does and the priority, but it isn't 1-shot. It's shotted, but he has more of it.I has many mugs.
Tric's claimed role seems to be... ungodly powerful? Either he's scum or there's some catch to it that he's not telling us. Or just bluffing.
Post by: Lidku on July 15, 2022, 06:40:48 pm
Quote from: TricMagic
OK Lidku, at this point you're definitely doing this on purpose. Comprehend!
...Comprehend? That's why I'm asking questions to you and trying to understand the slip-ups in your statements in the first place.
Post by: Lidku on July 15, 2022, 06:43:58 pm
Quote from: FallacyofUrist
Tric's claimed role seems to be... ungodly powerful? Either he's scum or there's some catch to it that he's not telling us. Or just bluffing.
Yeah, there is something finnicky about what TricMagic is saying what his role does, or its realistic depth abilities that it can have all at once. Could be all bluffs to simple center attentions on himself, but generally, his behavior so far is really strange to me...
Post by: TricMagic on July 15, 2022, 06:55:15 pm
During the day I can pick an ability from the previous BYOR, and if it's Active, it becomes a 1-shot. I receive it at the end of the day. May only be able to get each once, but it's useful. That's 5 times I've explained it now, just to hammer the point home. Stop attributing discussion and theory to new unslated abilities!
Post by: Mamobo on July 15, 2022, 06:56:54 pm
------------------------
FallacyofUrist - 0 -
Knightwing64 - 0 -
Lenglon - 0 -
Lidku - 0 - TricMagic* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390859#msg8390859),
Maximum Spin - 0 -
NJW2000 - 0 -
Shakerag - 0 -
TricMagic - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 1 - FallacyofUrist, Knightwing64, Lenglon, Lidku, Maximum Spin* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390734#msg8390734), NJW2000, Shakerag,
1 to Hammer. Day ends on July 18, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (~73 hours remaining).
NOTE: Players without votes are displayed in italics.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 15, 2022, 07:32:40 pm
100% this.Can we... take away the neutral advice privileges?
Yeah, that's really a personal preference thing in regards to the reads lists. I'd rather get lynched every game than be told I need to use a specific formatting.
I'm 99% sure you're misinterpreting what TricMagic's saying. I'm not convinced TricMagic DIDN'T do it yet, but he's not saying that he could. He seems to be saying "both abilities are day actions that take effect at the very end of the day".To answer Max, the Crane Action sounds like the same End of Day thing I've got. I pick an ability and get it at the end of the day, they pick someone to be removed from town actioning them. Including the target themselves maybe. But if Max's thing is an auto that wouldn't actually work, if it wasn't, then it might have worked.
You admittedly have a lot of bizarre claims on what your single role can do, TricMagic. You DID mention that you apparently can get abilities from the last BYOR game we had, but now suddenly you can "pick someone to be removed from Town actioning them"?
Why did you not mention this until now? And why, conveniently, did something as Maximum Spin being targeted at the very end of the day coincide with what you're disclosing one of your abilities can do?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 15, 2022, 07:47:37 pm
During the day I can pick an ability from the previous BYOR, and if it's Active, it becomes a 1-shot. I receive it at the end of the day. May only be able to get each once, but it's useful. That's 5 times I've explained it now, just to hammer the point home. Stop attributing discussion and theory to new unslated abilities!What's the catch?
Let's compare your claimed ability to Egan.
Egan had a much more limited ability selection to pick from, and was cursed with omega miller for it. Your selection is naturally incredibly expansive.
Scum typically get stronger roles than town players do, to balance out their lower numbers.
The only thing I can think of that balances out your roles is that you don't get three picks on Day 1, only one, but that's... not much, when you can pick players' strongest one-shots and make them yours to use.
Post by: TricMagic on July 15, 2022, 08:03:03 pm
... Hah.. I can't copy kill actions. So frustrated I forget to add that. And yeah, it's one per day. I don't have any other abilities but the ones I pick up.During the day I can pick an ability from the previous BYOR, and if it's Active, it becomes a 1-shot. I receive it at the end of the day. May only be able to get each once, but it's useful. That's 5 times I've explained it now, just to hammer the point home. Stop attributing discussion and theory to new unslated abilities!What's the catch?
Let's compare your claimed ability to Egan.
Egan had a much more limited ability selection to pick from, and was cursed with omega miller for it. Your selection is naturally incredibly expansive.
Scum typically get stronger roles than town players do, to balance out their lower numbers.
The only thing I can think of that balances out your roles is that you don't get three picks on Day 1, only one, but that's... not much, when you can pick players' strongest one-shots and make them yours to use.
Likewise, prereqs need both abilities, and couldn't copy A Whole Game of Mafia since Day 1 would have already ended.
Kinda like how litrally no one s brainstorming ways to break the game open with my abilities though. Or giving me something to do to confirm myself and someone else.
Should be noted there aren't any gamebreaker abilities in the last game. Mostly redirects, protects, inspects, and passives.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 15, 2022, 08:10:22 pm
Kinda like how litrally no one s brainstorming ways to break the game open with my abilities though. Or giving me something to do to confirm myself and someone else.That requires us to trust you.
I'm not saying you're my scum target - I'm mostly leaning towards NJW2000 and Shakerag right now, but well.
Who do you think is scum? The day remains long and every insight could help us figure things out.
Post by: Lidku on July 15, 2022, 08:31:10 pm
Egan had a much more limited ability selection to pick from, and was cursed with omega miller for it. Your selection is naturally incredibly expansive.
Scum typically get stronger roles than town players do, to balance out their lower numbers.
The only thing I can think of that balances out your roles is that you don't get three picks on Day 1, only one, but that's... not much, when you can pick players' strongest one-shots and make them yours to use.
Yeah, that's why I find TricMagic's role really suspicious. It's just way too strong and I feel like it leads toward being scummy.
Post by: TricMagic on July 15, 2022, 08:39:49 pm
Also, you're the one who's constantly misinterpreted things. Want me dead that badly? Do it tonight, rather than try and lynch me.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 15, 2022, 08:51:07 pm
Post by: TricMagic on July 15, 2022, 09:06:48 pm
Post by: Lidku on July 15, 2022, 09:38:13 pm
Least I have a solid explanation for why I did nothing last night...
Also, you're the one who's constantly misinterpreted things. Want me dead that badly? Do it tonight, rather than try and lynch me.
My reason for not doing anything on N1 is something I already addressed:
You, Lidku, did not perform a night action, but we don't know why not.
The only other person it could be that did the Crane is likely NJW or myself, and I'm excluding me doing it for obvious reasons.
I didn't do any night action because my role, Galactic Patrol Officer, primarily has "bus" abilities attached to it. I did not know who I should've targeted to have any effects go on me, so I simply chose not to do any action N1.
Besides the bus-style abilities I have, I only have 1-Super Protect. I'm reserving to use that until it's needed.
Post by: Lenglon on July 15, 2022, 11:15:14 pm
Claiming no actions on a night with no kill isn't particularly scummy to my mind - in fact, scum very frequently have other abilities allowing them to not kill and take an action, so it would be strange if they neither killed nor acted.I know this is fairly far back in the conversation, but NJW, I actually agree with this. Most of the claimed night actions are confirmable, so I see a number of them making various players involved with the actions more likely to be town, which is why focusing on the non-actors seems reasonable to me, but you are correct that there's nothing inherently scummy in not acting on a no-kill night.
What I'm trying to figure out is how come no mafiakill occurred.
Tric: I'm under the impression that you've played a number of past games at this point, could you link some of them? especially BYORs moderated by Web, and the more recent the games are the better for my purposes.
Lidku: could you explain why Bussing two players at random, assuming you have a null read of literally everyone in the game, would be a bad judgement call?
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 15, 2022, 11:28:30 pm
Tric: I'm under the impression that you've played a number of past games at this point, could you link some of them? especially BYORs moderated by Web, and the more recent the games are the better for my purposes.Well, the obvious choice is obvious, so I'll throw it in for both of you: The prequel to this one. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179912)
It seems to contain a good selection of everyone involved's typical behavior, really. Man, I was really out of it for d1 that time. I even used emoticons. You thought this one was bad.
Post by: Shakerag on July 16, 2022, 12:31:09 am
If Shakerag was scum, it'd be easy enough to fake his claimed action. Since Lenglon is already on everyone's town core list he doesn't lose much by 'confirming' her. Not definitive, but worth pointing out.
Valid observation. I obviously can't counter that without dying during the night phase.
Post by: Shakerag on July 16, 2022, 12:42:02 am
I am "The Beginner BYOR 2 Role That Won’t Ruin The Balance "
all of my abilities are 1-shots.
I can bodyguard someone, I used that on Lenglon N1.
I can do a delay roleblock.
I can remove an ability from someone.
I can give one of my abilities to someone.
And I can choose an ability and use it twice.
I don't really like this role, but I'm open to advice on who I should do what to.
Post by: Shakerag on July 16, 2022, 12:55:55 am
Post by: Lenglon on July 16, 2022, 05:37:40 am
Briefly reviewed that and didn't see what I was looking for, which was sad but also a long-shot anyway. We try things, sometimes they work.Tric: I'm under the impression that you've played a number of past games at this point, could you link some of them? especially BYORs moderated by Web, and the more recent the games are the better for my purposes.Well, the obvious choice is obvious, so I'll throw it in for both of you: The prequel to this one. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179912)
It seems to contain a good selection of everyone involved's typical behavior, really. Man, I was really out of it for d1 that time. I even used emoticons. You thought this one was bad.
Post by: Lidku on July 16, 2022, 08:50:57 am
Claiming no actions on a night with no kill isn't particularly scummy to my mind - in fact, scum very frequently have other abilities allowing them to not kill and take an action, so it would be strange if they neither killed nor acted.Lidku: could you explain why Bussing two players at random, assuming you have a null read of literally everyone in the game, would be a bad judgement call?
What I'm trying to figure out is how come no mafiakill occurred.
Primarily because of that fact that I wouldn't want to be responsible for some catastrophic negative effect on someone that maybe Town. I just didn't see how effective my abilities would be on N1, so I chose not to do anything. The super protect I'm saving for a situation that absolutely requires it.
Post by: TricMagic on July 16, 2022, 10:11:49 am
How about this, you use this Super Protect tonight, and I'll Sketch it.Claiming no actions on a night with no kill isn't particularly scummy to my mind - in fact, scum very frequently have other abilities allowing them to not kill and take an action, so it would be strange if they neither killed nor acted.Lidku: could you explain why Bussing two players at random, assuming you have a null read of literally everyone in the game, would be a bad judgement call?
What I'm trying to figure out is how come no mafiakill occurred.
Primarily because of that fact that I wouldn't want to be responsible for some catastrophic negative effect on someone that maybe Town. I just didn't see how effective my abilities would be on N1, so I chose not to do anything. The super protect I'm saving for a situation that absolutely requires it.
Not, given that there isn't any way to prove I'm lying, or you're lying. Super Protect is fairly easy for Mafia to fake.
To Lenglon, here's a few.
Headhunter (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179908.0)
Bastard Paranormal 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=177519.0)
Webadict's Simple BYOR 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179638.0)
Lords of Mafia (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179730.0)
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 16, 2022, 02:35:20 pm
Post by: Mamobo on July 16, 2022, 02:45:19 pm
------------------------
FallacyofUrist - 0 - Shakerag* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390943#msg8390943),
Knightwing64 - 0 -
Lenglon - 0 -
Lidku - 0 - TricMagic* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390859#msg8390859),
Maximum Spin - 0 -
NJW2000 - 0 -
Shakerag - 0 -
TricMagic - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 1 - FallacyofUrist, Knightwing64, Lenglon, Lidku, Maximum Spin* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390734#msg8390734), NJW2000,
1 to Hammer. Day ends on July 18, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (~53 hours remaining).
NOTE: Players without votes are displayed in italics.
Post by: Lenglon on July 16, 2022, 04:02:51 pm
FoU: I believe you claimed why you were able to target Max last night, but Shake does have a solid point, could you repeat how you could target Max please?
Tric Thank you, i'll review those to see if they have what I'm hoping to get lucky and find.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 16, 2022, 04:06:11 pm
I'm still sus on FallacyofUrist because there is no good explanation as to how he was able to target Maximum SpinOkay, I believe I explained this once already but it's possible that you missed it, so I'll explain it again.
My auto ability lets me take actions as though I was mafia-aligned, and it prevents my mafiakill abilities from killing.
Taking actions as though I'm mafia-aligned means I can use my mafiakills, but it also means that you know. I can take actions as if I had the mafia alignment.
A brief timeline of events:
Quote
The Crane: "Bwahahahaha! Now, nobody with the Town alignment can target Maximum Spin!"
Maximum Spin: "Wait what? That's not my ability."
Shakerag and NJW2000, the scumteam (secretly): "Gottem."
Lenglon, Lidku, TricMagic, Knightwing64: "Well darn. Guess we can't target Spin, then."
Fallacy: "I'd like to Mug Maximum Spin."
The Crane: "Nope. You're town. Not allowed."
Fallacy: "But... you have to treat me like I'm mafia, because I'm always scum."
The Crane: "What?? That's not how this works."
webadict: "Checks out."
The Crane: "... ugh, fine."
Mug: fails
Fallacy: "Darn."
Maximum Spin: "Fallacy tried to kill me!"
Shakerag and NJW2000 (secretly): "Wait, what?"
Fallacy: "No, I didn't."
Maximum Spin: "Bwuh."
Does this cover things well enough, or do I need to dig into ontological philosophy and start digging into how my auto ability interacts with the game rules?
Post by: NJW2000 on July 16, 2022, 04:13:18 pm
You gonna justify calling me scum though? Like any kind of explanation for that? How about going back to how I stole your idea... because that was suuuuch a good case.
~50 hours left today.
Post by: Lenglon on July 16, 2022, 04:15:17 pm
FoU and Max would it be a bad thing for FoU to continue false-mafiakilling Max, as a way to prove himself? Since if the maf get a kill and Max sees that FoU actioned him, it will show that he really has the auto he says he does. And if he actually is maf, he will either have to never nightkill or out himself.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 16, 2022, 04:24:31 pm
You gonna justify calling me scum though? Like any kind of explanation for that? How about going back to how I stole your idea... because that was suuuuch a good case.Well, if I use your approximate level of argument strength, 'stole my idea without mentioning I brought it up first at all' and a few other minor things would be enough to justify a vote on you.
NJW2000 sus.
No, I think I'll do better than that. This game deserves full cases. Behavior arguments, mechanics arguments, working in tandem. Not "Fallacy scum because miller and not claimed in first post!" That's not enough, buddy.
Your job here, if this is the alternate reality where you're town and I'm scum, is to use my behavior and the mechanics to show how I'm scum to get Lenglon to execute me. Not just the mechanics, and not just the behavior.
Let's get to happily trying to get each other eliminated, shall we?
FoU: Thank you. Could you summarize why you are sus of Shake and NJW again?The quick notes is NJW2000's behavior on Day 1 and extremely weakly justified voting - NJW2000 isn't a newbie. Surely he could at least try to poke holes in my behavior and not just 'miller late bad'. As for Shakerag, the bodyguard claim doesn't fit the rest of his role very well. I admit that's a weaker justification, but it's not like I'm going to stop here. Call it a gut feeling I'm going to follow up on.
That said, I'd prefer to start with NJW2000, as I think (based on current understanding) that he's more likely to be scum than Shakerag.
FoU and Max would it be a bad thing for FoU to continue false-mafiakilling Max, as a way to prove himself? Since if the maf get a kill and Max sees that FoU actioned him, it will show that he really has the auto he says he does. And if he actually is maf, he will either have to never nightkill or out himself.I'm down for this.
Now mind you, the logical thing for scum to do to prevent this level of confirmation from occurring is to attack me, since I don't have any (claimed) defensive abilities. So far, from what I've seen, I actually have the weakest role in this game. I hope you have a plan for that, too?
Post by: Lidku on July 16, 2022, 04:45:58 pm
Since it sounds like your bus isn't shotted, I don't see why you would not use it N1, and your explanation of your choice - that you didn't want to be responsible for... something? Doesn't seem reasonable to me.
I don't see why you wouldn't find it reasonable on why I didn't use my abilities N1. This is my first time having a role with bus abilities. I'm just generally not as elaborated in its use as you are. All that I know from the surface of it, from reading snippets from Mafia wiki and what my own role description says, I didn't want to be involved in a chance of my wayward random bus that has a high chance of killing a Town member.
Not only that, from what you elaborate (from variable self-made statistics of that you've told me), a random bus of any kind only has a "1/12 chance of making the Mafia kill their own team". The effectiveness of this is reduced, because besides TricMagic, I didn't have a strong suspicion toward anyone. So I just felt there was no need to bus as of yet for N1.
Post by: Lenglon on July 16, 2022, 04:47:25 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 16, 2022, 04:57:24 pm
FoU and Max would it be a bad thing for FoU to continue false-mafiakilling Max, as a way to prove himself? Since if the maf get a kill and Max sees that FoU actioned him, it will show that he really has the auto he says he does. And if he actually is maf, he will either have to never nightkill or out himself.I see no obvious problem with this plan. Fallacy, though, would you mind laying out your mafiakill options and what they do for me? I understand if you want to keep the information to yourself, but it'd be nice if there's one that will also not interfere with my own role so I can, you know, get an action to use one day.
I didn't want to be involved in a chance of my wayward random bus that has a high chance of killing a Town member.NOT redirecting the mafiakill means it has a 100% chance of killing a Town member. In theory.
I do understand the "if you touch it, it becomes your fault" feeling though, I admit. But you have to learn to get over it.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 16, 2022, 05:03:17 pm
I see no obvious problem with this plan. Fallacy, though, would you mind laying out your mafiakill options and what they do for me? I understand if you want to keep the information to yourself, but it'd be nice if there's one that will also not interfere with my own role so I can, you know, get an action to use one day.Well, I only have two mafiakill options. The first is what you've already seen. The second one is investigative in nature, though, and doesn't do any interference.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 16, 2022, 05:08:27 pm
FoU: Lidku has the ability to protect you, and locking him into that job to confirm himself frees today's lynch up for an alternate choice - like those you're sus of.That's fair, then. I'll accept it. Let me write up my cases for Shakerag and NJW2000.
Post by: TricMagic on July 16, 2022, 05:42:12 pm
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 16, 2022, 06:14:11 pm
Basically, I have a ability that makes it so mafia kills only effect me and one other person, revives and protection is canceled
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 16, 2022, 06:14:36 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 16, 2022, 06:22:08 pm
Okay, this might be a weird question, but is anyone of you okay with a 50 percent t chance of dying?Knightwing: Why are you asking this question at this time?
Basically, I have a ability that makes it so mafia kills only effect me and one other person, revives and protection is canceled
Post by: NJW2000 on July 16, 2022, 06:29:50 pm
*various nonsense*
Try to get you eliminated?
Nah, I don't particularly think you're scum, I feel like web wouldn't put in random nonsense like non-shared mafiakills that also block so the victim doesn't get to play. Mug was a pretty convincing ability on a meta level... especially as it could just be a high-priority kill if you were mafia. I mean, you eliminating a very obvious town miller and asking Lenglon for my lynch without actually quoting my behaviour isn't very townie, but maybe you're just bad? Dunno.
Obviously I'll be rereading the thread and looking for convincing evidence for scum on behaviour alone, but it's mostly misunderstandings and people getting mad at one another, so I doubt I'll find anything particularly damning.
Honestly, my top scumpick right now would be Shakerag, but only because he's flying under the radar so much.
Okay, this might be a weird question, but is anyone of you okay with a 50 percent t chance of dying?I'm in!
Basically, I have a ability that makes it so mafia kills only effect me and one other person, revives and protection is canceled
Post by: NJW2000 on July 16, 2022, 06:31:41 pm
Post by: TricMagic on July 16, 2022, 06:32:19 pm
Okay, this might be a weird question, but is anyone of you okay with a 50 percent t chance of dying?I'm fine with it given I still have a vote when I'm dead. Might have wanted to save that revelation till Day 3 though, given they can just kill you.
Basically, I have a ability that makes it so mafia kills only effect me and one other person, revives and protection is canceled
... What priority is it? If it can just be redirected or blocked not too much use.
Honestly, my top scumpick right now would be Shakerag, but only because he's flying under the radar so much.Okay, this might be a weird question, but is anyone of you okay with a 50 percent t chance of dying?I'm in!
Basically, I have a ability that makes it so mafia kills only effect me and one other person, revives and protection is canceled
I've not really pushed any cases today NJW.
NinJW
Post by: TricMagic on July 16, 2022, 06:33:50 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 16, 2022, 06:40:12 pm
Post by: TricMagic on July 16, 2022, 07:01:41 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 16, 2022, 07:03:45 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 16, 2022, 07:34:19 pm
I find a common scum tactic to be argument-dismissal, that is, either misinterpreting or selectively quoting someone's post to make them look weaker than they actually are. NJW2000 has been doing this all game.*various nonsense*
I feel like web wouldn't put in random nonsense like non-shared mafiakills that also block so the victim doesn't get to play.As much as this is outguessing the mod, it's also absurd because NJW did play in BYOR 15 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=177586.msg8216431#msg8216431). NJW2000 should have at least a basic understanding of the fact that webadict prefers to make setups more interesting and complex instead of less. Although this is a Beginner's BYOR, this game isn't trying to be Mostly Vanilla Mafia. If anything, a mafiakill ability that also blocks is really simple. It's not a reasonable argument to make that 'web wouldn't put in' my ability.
Furthermore, at this point we've seen Egan's role flip. NJW has an example of exactly what our mod is willing to do. NJW is representing my role as something absurd or unlikely, but that doesn't match up with reality. If anything, given Tric's role, and Knightwing's role, my role is on the lesser end of this game's strength.
Yes, that is correct. Well, not the 'try to kill you' part. But I did act on you last night. Regardless, I am town.Let me get this straight. You have an auto that makes all your mafiakill powers not kill?
And you targeted Max? A person not targetable by town players? Is there a reason you're not being a bit more specific about how your auto works, given how this looks? Yes/no answer to that one would be fine.
Importantly, did you actually hit Max?
Note that this is post is after I made my claim.
When I said all my actions appear to be mafiakills, that's because they are in fact mafiakill abilities. They have the tag and everything.I clearly stated that my auto 'lets me use abilities as though I was mafia-aligned' earlier, a fact which NJW seems to ignore.
However, my auto ability has two components.
Firstly, it lets me use abilities as though I was mafia-aligned, which includes using mafiakills. Turns out it also let me bypass that crane-shield thingamajig.
Secondly, it makes my mafiakill abilities not kill.
I'm still sus on FallacyofUrist because there is no good explanation as to how he was able to target Maximum SpinNote that Shakerag makes the exact same point later on, similarly blind - or misrepresenting/ignoring - my auto claim.
Jesus. I’m not going to bother responding to Lenglons text wall of mangled logic and misrepresentation. Max actually got my point, he just didn’t think the event I considered low probability was that unlikely. I don’t know why this is so hard for you Lenglon, but I’m really not interested in engaging with someone who responds so emotionally and with such little respect for other players. Given you thought I was someone else the whole game, I don’t really feel obliged to explain things to you.Ironic given the habit of misrepresentation NJW seems to have. While Lenglon has been emotional, it has not been to the exclusion of logic. As for the last sentence, 'given you thought I was someone else the whole game, I don't really feel obliged to explain things to you'...
Just earlier, NJW states that the identity confusion was 'fair enough', which is strange given he later used it as an excuse to not engage with her.*sigh*I don't find your failure to properly read my posts alignment indicative. I just find it obstructs my play. Also, yeah, I'm not doll, but confusion is fair enough. They did tend to be a bit more... abrasive.
NJW: Fix your lies. Now. I'm not going to put up with obvious bullshit, and you can just enjoy the vote for your troubles.
@FoU: yeah, that was your point on Egan, I hadn’t spotted it and acknowledged it was interesting after you posted it. It is the most dubious thing about their play today, aside from the miller stuff. I never claimed it was my point, and you making it doesn’t mean it’s wrong, regardless of alignment. This is a weak prod at me.Misrepresentation. I never said 'NJW is scum because he took my point and says it was his'. I pointed that out because NJW took my point, didn't acknowledge that it was mine in the first place - there's a subtle difference there, between 'says it was his' and 'doesn't attribute its origin'.
This is relevant because at the same time, NJW was arguing for an Egan/me scumteam, while using the point of someone he thought was partnered with Egan to argue that Egan was scum. He never bothered to explicitly consider why I would even make that point in the first place.
But then again, NJW hasn't been keen on using behavior-based evidence at all so far.
As to my case on you: sorry, but I think it’s good enough to vote on.
[1] It’s ironic that you tell me not to outguess the mod, given the last role you gave me was entirely about doing that.
[2] As for your other play… you’re decent at mafia, so the “you stole my idea” attack was about as weak as you’ll get.
[3] The miller stuff is simply the most important thing today, and it’s what I’m voting on.
[1] Funny but irrelevant.
[2] I never said stole, I said 'used without attribution'. Misrepresentation manipulation, covered in the above section.
[3] Considering that NJW is an experienced player, this is really, unusually weak. We need to use behavior analysis in our scum hunting. NJW outright refuses to do this.
I explicitly say 'non-claim behavior'. He responds with 'do you mean your late claim, or the claimed thing that you shouldn't claim' (the latter referring to my claim of the secret interaction involving Max's ability). I explicitly ask him if my behavior not related to my claim supports his case that I'm scum. He dodges the question, essentially.We’re not no-lynching.Do you mean your late claim, or the claimed thing you shouldn’t claim that explains it? Both slightly, I’d say.
NJW: Does my non-claim behavior support your case? I’m expecting a yes or no answer here.
No, I mean my behavior which has nothing to do with my claim. Behavior that is not in the category of claim-related. Does that support your vote on me, and if so, why? Please provide direct quotes if possible.I follow up on his bs. He does not respond to this post.
You missed me.This is NJW's next post, which does not address my response in the slightest. Possibly because he knows he can't point to scummy behavior of mine without using the power of misrepresentation.
Quite busy rn but I'd just like to note that voting someone other than one of the miller claims means you believe both miller claims or you're more than 50% on that person. Tric elim isn't something I want, I want Egan or FoU.
No real thoughts on his power... seems potentially overpowered, and capable of giving some info, but quite random?
I really don't think a weak meta read without specific examples/comparisons and a conspiracy around my follower-miller claim is a stronger case than one actually based around a very simple question.I will say that this post was sent to Egan, not NJW, but the point I make here is still widely applicable.
Has Fallacy been actively pushing cases and hunting scum?
Can you answer that one, too?
NJW simply will not consider the fundamental point of this post. Not anywhere I've seen.
Because, to put it simply, that is the strongest evidence against his argument that I must be scum. If I am actively scum hunting, attacking, creating cases - if I am acting town in every way other than claiming partial-miller late, then it undercuts his case, so he simply refuses to acknowledge it, and minimizes my points whenever possible.
This is frustrating to say the least.
Because if Egan is fakeclaiming and FoU isn’t, Egan just claimed a highly unusual role, one I’ve never seen or even heard of, and something more similar than any other role I’ve seen just happened to exist in the game. It’s an astonishingly unlikely event. When there is a much more likely explanation involving FoU fakeclaiming or neither fakeclaiming, we are not entitled to accept the ridiculously unlikely explanation as plausible.NJW2000 has played BYOR15. He knows what our mod is capable of. The fact that we're playing a Beginner's game doesn't mean that webadict stops being webadict, it just means that webadict tones things down.
I mean, all Egans posts so far could have been ones he was forced to make by a post restriction. It’s an extremely unlikely explanation, so I reject it.
Has anyone ever seen the “I appear to have done the mafia kill” role before? I think it’s a very nonstandard miller-like role
If anything, the central philosophy of Beginner's BYOR is that new players want our wacky, weird, beautiful messy setups, and a Beginner's BYOR eases them into that. This is clearly expressed in the OP.
Ho hum. I find that hard to believe. Also, have a look through Fal and EgAns early interactions. They’re just a tad weird. At the very least, I think FoU is lying here.Both Egan and I are practical jokers. Note that NJW does not quote the 'early interactions' or provide examples.
Anything to say for yourself, FallacyOfUrist?
I mean, you eliminating a very obvious town miller and asking Lenglon for my lynch without actually quoting my behaviour isn't very townie, but maybe you're just bad? Dunno.Misrepresentation. Note what I said earlier:
NJW2000 says that I'm asking Lenglon to execute him without trying to build a case.You gonna justify calling me scum though? Like any kind of explanation for that? How about going back to how I stole your idea... because that was suuuuch a good case.Well, if I use your approximate level of argument strength, 'stole my idea without mentioning I brought it up first at all' and a few other minor things would be enough to justify a vote on you.
NJW2000 sus.
No, I think I'll do better than that. This game deserves full cases. Behavior arguments, mechanics arguments, working in tandem. Not "Fallacy scum because miller and not claimed in first post!" That's not enough, buddy.
Your job here, if this is the alternate reality where you're town and I'm scum, is to use my behavior and the mechanics to show how I'm scum to get Lenglon to execute me. Not just the mechanics, and not just the behavior.
Let's get to happily trying to get each other eliminated, shall we?
Looks up at my mega post.
To conclude:
NJW2000 is using uncharacteristically weak arguments that ignore the behavior aspect of the game. I would not expect this behavior from experienced town.
NJW2000 is misrepresenting arguments and evidence against him.
NJW2000 claims that a BYOR run by webadict cannot be absurd.
This isn't even digging into the NJW2000 / Lenglon duels, but frankly, those deserve their own post.
The strongest point I have to make is that NJW2000 is not hunting scum, and refuses to acknowledge that that is what I am doing.
NJW2000 should be executed.
Shakerag I'm not as sure about, but he deserves his own investigation post as well.
I fully expect NJW2000 to reply to this post and misrepresent every point he can get his hands on, which will be exhausting to respond to, so, so, so just... read for yourself. Alright? Draw some conclusions. He hasn't been hunting. I have. That's it.
Post by: Lidku on July 16, 2022, 08:16:12 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 16, 2022, 08:21:24 pm
FallacyofUrist: What's your case for Shakerag? It seems you have just focused on NJW in your above post; or do you want to hold off to see if NJW flips Town or Mafia on the lynch?Like I said, Shakerag needs his own post. Wouldn't be fair of me to mega post to attack NJW and not do the same for Shakerag.
Sorry about all the extra reading, but these things need to be said. We're not going to take down scum just by sheer luck.
Post by: Lidku on July 16, 2022, 08:43:13 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 16, 2022, 08:45:19 pm
I'm sorry to say that I realized after I said that that I actually do need you to trigger my role so I can, you know, confirm you did it. So you're stuck with the one you used if you wanna do that.I see no obvious problem with this plan. Fallacy, though, would you mind laying out your mafiakill options and what they do for me? I understand if you want to keep the information to yourself, but it'd be nice if there's one that will also not interfere with my own role so I can, you know, get an action to use one day.Well, I only have two mafiakill options. The first is what you've already seen. The second one is investigative in nature, though, and doesn't do any interference.
You can probably figure out more than half of how my role works by now.
NJW2000, I have just one question for you, and remember I only ask questions when I think they're important.
Who do you think is Fallacy's partner?
I can see a few possibilities that would seem to be consistent with your worldview, but I want to hear what you think. You seem fully sold on Fallacy being scum, so you must have some idea. Fallacy, of course, has told us who he thinks your partner is.
Post by: Mamobo on July 16, 2022, 08:46:26 pm
------------------------
FallacyofUrist - 0 - Shakerag* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390943#msg8390943),
Knightwing64 - 0 -
Lenglon - 0 -
Lidku - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
NJW2000 - 0 - TricMagic* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8391173#msg8391173), FallacyofUrist* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8391193#msg8391193),
Shakerag - 0 -
TricMagic - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 1 - Knightwing64, Lenglon, Lidku, Maximum Spin* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390734#msg8390734), NJW2000,
1 to Hammer. Day ends on July 18, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (~47 hours remaining).
NOTE: Players without votes are displayed in italics.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 16, 2022, 08:48:23 pm
I think the biggest threat to Town is figuring out who's responsible for the crane. It's dangerous because it isolates one Town member and prevents others from doing either Protects, Redirects, Revives - just anything that is a positive ability toward another Town member that might save them.
Hopefully it's a one-shot or otherwise limited use. Considering how potent it effectively is, as you point out, it likely is.
Hold on.
Lenglon, Lidku: What do we do if the crane-user targets me? In that case Lidku will be unable to provide protection. Does the plan change?
I'm sorry to say that I realized after I said that that I actually do need you to trigger my role so I can, you know, confirm you did it. So you're stuck with the one you used if you wanna do that.Well, darn. Alright, Mug it is then, if you're sure my other option isn't viable.
You can probably figure out more than half of how my role works by now.
Post by: Lidku on July 16, 2022, 08:51:55 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 16, 2022, 09:43:18 pm
Lenglon, Lidku: What do we do if the crane-user targets me? In that case Lidku will be unable to provide protection. Does the plan change?In that case we'll know that publicly declared planned actions are a really really bad idea, and will have to adjust.
Post by: Shakerag on July 16, 2022, 11:18:55 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on July 17, 2022, 05:27:01 am
NJW2000, I have just one question for you, and remember I only ask questions when I think they're important.
Who do you think is Fallacy's partner?
I can see a few possibilities that would seem to be consistent with your worldview, but I want to hear what you think. You seem fully sold on Fallacy being scum, so you must have some idea. Fallacy, of course, has told us who he thinks your partner is.
*various nonsense*
Try to get you eliminated?
Nah, I don't particularly think you're scum, I feel like web wouldn't put in random nonsense like non-shared mafiakills that also block so the victim doesn't get to play. Mug was a pretty convincing ability on a meta level... especially as it could just be a high-priority kill if you were mafia. I mean, you eliminating a very obvious town miller and asking Lenglon for my lynch without actually quoting my behaviour isn't very townie, but maybe you're just bad? Dunno.
Obviously I'll be rereading the thread and looking for convincing evidence for scum on behaviour alone, but it's mostly misunderstandings and people getting mad at one another, so I doubt I'll find anything particularly damning.
Honestly, my top scumpick right now would be Shakerag, but only because he's flying under the radar so much.Okay, this might be a weird question, but is anyone of you okay with a 50 percent t chance of dying?I'm in!
Basically, I have a ability that makes it so mafia kills only effect me and one other person, revives and protection is canceled
You see why I complain about people not reading my posts? I don't make that many, it's not hard.
And again, with someone preemptively going "NJW is going to represent my points, boo-hoo!". This game is tedious.
Post by: Lenglon on July 17, 2022, 06:05:11 am
Post by: NJW2000 on July 17, 2022, 06:05:46 am
Quote
NJW2000 is not hunting scum, and refuses to acknowledge that that is what I am doing.
I mean, I've pressed a bunch of people on stuff I found disturbing: Shake on the not-seeing-facetiousness tell, Max on his preference for Egan over you, Tric on what could have been a scumslip but it's very hard to tell with Tric, Egan on knowingly playing weakly and using his newness as an excuse, etc. So yeah, I've been looking for scum.
As to the fact you've been scumhunting... sure you have. I acknowledge you did it D1, and I implicitly acknowledged it then by, you know, not pointing out "this vet isn't scumhunting at all, that's crazy!".
Thing is, mafia can scumhunt too. You're a forum vet, so if you couldn't convincingly fake looking for scum, you'd have a reputation for being incredibly easily read. Which I'm pretty sure you don't. You eliminated Egan at least in part for not scumhunting as much and as loudly as other players, even though that was stupid, because of course they wouldn't, they're were a newbie miller in a crazy BYOR game. Again, you seem to have this mistaken idea that scumhunting -> always town, not scumhunting -> always scum. It doesn't. And you're insisting that the first one means people can't scumread you.
I don't vote based on virtue, I vote on who I actually think is scum.
Quote
Because, to put it simply, that is the strongest evidence against his argument that I must be scum. If I am actively scum hunting, attacking, creating cases - if I am acting town in every way other than claiming partial-miller late, then it undercuts his case, so he simply refuses to acknowledge it, and minimizes my points whenever possible.
Again, stop representing me as saying you must be scum. I thought you were the best choice D1, I don't have 100% confidence in my D1 reads.
Besides, you posted this in your mega-post after me, HERE (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8391170#msg8391170), explicitly stating that I don't think you're mafia. Unless you were referring to my case yesterday, but the point stands that a mafia player can look active and helpful, while a town player like Egan can look unhelpful. Would have been nice to see some evidence that you actually read that post, but hey.
I really wish people would actually read my posts.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 17, 2022, 06:46:02 am
Post by: Lenglon on July 17, 2022, 07:00:30 am
Ok, I'll reply to some of FoU's endless wall, but I honestly don't have time to line-by-line the whole thing, especially in a game in which I don't currently have a vote or high hopes of persuading the one person who does. If people want me to address another of his points, I'm happy to do that, but tell me which. Let's address what he thinks is the strongest point.Okay.
I try to avoid interfering in lynch case like FoU's until after the target of the case has responded, so I waited until NJW gave an actual response, but I'll now go through FoU's case point by point and give my feedback. I'll be withholding my opinion on anything I want you to respond to NJW, but I'll be voicing my view on the rest for the sake of transparency.
Spoiler: Section 1 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Section 2 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Section 3 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Section 4 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Section 5 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Section 6 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Section 7 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Section 8 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Section 9 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Lenglon on July 17, 2022, 08:09:34 am
Post by: Lenglon on July 17, 2022, 08:18:45 am
Post by: TricMagic on July 17, 2022, 08:47:59 am
Well, what I was really going for was to find someone to attack. I recall hearing that picking at whoever votes for you is an acceptable beginner strategy, so I went for that. Shakerag doesn't seem scummy to me at this point, but it doesn't really matter so much as that I got them to say some stuff and hopefully that helps people with more developed instincts than me.This is bad. You've heard it's ok for newbie players to do something that's bad, so you did it? And you're waiting for stronger players to figure out the game?
That's a very convenient position for mafia to take. Instead, try to play well, and actually play the game. You may not have played much mafia, but you're smart, so scumhunt.
MaximumSpin - I've never been able to read him and seldom find him useful before D3.
First Post here. (As with all of these, just click the message link to see the whole thing, but this bit might be relevant?)
Of note, Egan doesn't think Fal is scum, and Fal unvotes to stop a hammering of Max.
Unvote. Quick check shows, you, NJW, Tric, and me on Max, and that's one vote off from hammer. I'd rather not have someone accidentally execute Max within something like the first 24 hours of the day.Between this post and NJW's. Currently only one of them, instead we have infighting.
Alright, back from the mall. Alot of posts have been flung around and it seems everyone is centering toward Max?It's these sorts of posts that make me think Lidku is scum... You had better have a strong day 3.
Also, Lenglon is acting kind of aggro.. Could be a town demeanor... but I feel like it's way too early to be acting this aggressive. On a D1 one, there is nothing to really go off of.
Probobly a bit late.. But if nothing is done on Day 1, there is nothing to go off of on day 2. Being worried about town numbers is odd when there are 9 of us.Quote from: Maximum SpinNJW2000 and Lidku have not posted much. I think NJW has only posted once, and it feels like Lidku has done barely more than that. I don't trust this. Honestly, if I had to pick one OTP Scumteam out of everyone, I might say it's just the two of them riding it out and hoping to casually get me lynched in the shitfight.Quote from: Maximum SpinI guess I should unvote.
NJW2000 and Lidku, what're you two up to?Quote from: Maximum SpinOh, Lidku just showed up, while I was writing, huh. Moving my vote to NJW2000 then. He still needs to DO MORE, though.
Apologies for the inactivity, but I DID preface earlier that I was at the mall doing IRL matters.
This is my second BYOR game and I think I just usually like to be passive in general on D1, then try to actively solve on D2 (like I did before). There is just never enough to go on in a D1 to make any substantive determination on who is Mafia, in general. The D1 vote, if it occurs, most likely just kills a town; then after that, the Mafia will be able to get another kill on N1.
...Here's the other half of why I think Lidku may be scum. Out of the many many parts. Hunt! If you don't hunt, you get suspected.To everyone that isn't Egan. Do you think Egan and I are the scumteam?I am not interested in speculating about the scumteam as a group, and performing relational analysis, on day 1.
Individually you are each more townie than the players that have not posted enough content to form a read off of (Tric, Knightwing, NJW).
NJW has posted recently. That just really leaves Tric and Knightwing.. but I personally think inactivity is a somewhat weak modem to go off of... They could be doing IRL things. Usually I believe it's more likely that the Mafia is always active in a thread, as a means to deflect suspicion that they COULD be Mafia.. An inverse of what you've posted.
Page 18 has a few NJW posts.
For me? My action would show up as targeting Max in that scenario, assuming I wasn't redirected or some other shenaniganery.
My actions show up as mafiakill actions, but their apparent targeting is not modified from what it actually is.
Now this is WEIRD. Because the same does not seem to be true of Egan. See:Ah in that case I'm like, omega miller. Inspects show me as mafia, surveys show my action as mafiakill, and tracking shows me as visiting whoever was killed.Shakerag - Please explain Miller Theory regarding D1 claims.
Oh I just realized I missed that. I stick by the old (relative to this subforum) rules that you always claim miller ASAP. To do otherwise is to invite doubt.
So there are different Omega-millers in play?
Ho hum. I find that hard to believe. Also, have a look through Fal and EgAns early interactions. They’re just a tad weird. At the very least, I think FoU is lying here.
Anything to say for yourself, FallacyOfUrist?
I suppose a question to NJW would be thus. What was weird about them? Also last game literally had a grandfather, but with Egan claiming second, Fal's chance of lying drops. Unless that's what webaict wants us to think..
Last post of the page is using role logic in a webadict game to decry Fal's role.
... Sigh.... Really Lidku? Out of context this would be rather horrible. But it does setup Lenglon's day2 claim nicely. Hmm..come to think of it, Lidku, I don't think anyone has really engaged with you today so far. How do you feel about that? Also, if you could get an investigate result on someone as a bonus action tonight, who would you pick? And if you had to take a vigi shot RIGHT NOW, who would you shoot with it?
For an investigation action, I would choose between either Egan, TricMagic, and admittedly... you.
You, because I feel like you're being a tad-bit aggressive for D1. Almost like you're trying hard to be considered Town with your constant activity and trying to grasp at things to nail who you suspect as Mafia.. an attempt to detract suspicion from yourself, perhaps?
TricMagic because he has been silent lately and he is usually more active than this. Though again, like I've broached before, it all could be IRL activities consuming up his time.
Egan, as a means to really discern of what they're saying about their "Miller" ability being true. But apparently the whole point of a "Miller" automatically typecasts the user as Mafia, no matter what? Then it becomes extremely hard to gauge whether or not Egan TRULY is either Mafia and Town (which is, I believe, is what everyone has been arguing these past pages.. I just realized we're still on D1, but at least somewhat half-up to the page number of the previous BYOR game :o).
Now, as for what I would do if I had a vigilante ability: I would save it for until I at least highly suspect someone. Doing the wrong the kill + a lynch vote killing a Town and not a Mafia member + the decided Mafia kill would devastate Town, bringing us way closer to a loss in one Day/Night. If I had such an ability, I would never disclose it and save it for at least N2 or N3 (if I was still alive, that is) for someone I highly suspected.
...32 pages of talk somehow, yet NJW/Lidku aren't on the lynch. Good job town.
Linebreak until the next NJW posts. Right now, Lenglon and Knightwing are town-reads. Not touching Skake with a ten-foot pole though.
Lidku, a question for you. What should town do to achieve cohesion and trust in one another?
Wait a moment...
(Ninja Lenglon)
Yeah, NJW2000 has rubbed me wrong all game. Enough's enough. He dies.I find a common scum tactic to be argument-dismissal, that is, either misinterpreting or selectively quoting someone's post to make them look weaker than they actually are. NJW2000 has been doing this all game.*various nonsense*
Also, NJW, it's a little odd that you decided to cut out such tiny segments of my post and removed their context. You also didn't address the conclusion at the bottom in any way. Why did you do that? It already was a fairly small post, and it's especially odd that you would remove the context from my statements while pitching a fit about how I wasn't representing yours properly.
The lack of suspiscions is not good.
I'm kind of ok with an Egan flip as I feel it may solve the FoU slot in some manner. I would prefer to see FoU eliminated though.
Will do a readslist but later... I have a train journey that would be perfect for that.
In any case, deep breath.2) Egan town FoU scum. - you are advocating for thisShow me where I did this. Just show me where. Read my posts. Then reread them. Then see if you can pick out the bit where I say this.QuoteI'm not misrepresenting anything. You are dismissing out of hand option 4, and you have stated that your reason for doing so is that it is to aduacious to be true. I consider this reason completely unacceptable.I am saying it is too unlikely to be reasonably accepted. READ MY POSTS. QUOTE THEM. Don't just ascribe random positions to me.
STOP MISREPRESENTING ME. I imagine several players don't particularly feel the need to see you survive the elim. If you continue to misrepresent what I say, I will be one of them. I don't care for players who post angry textwalls and fail to read the thread.
All I can say is practice what your preach, do unto others as you would do unto yourself, and all that jazz.
Also, NJW, it's a little odd that you decided to cut out such tiny segments of my post and removed their context. You also didn't address the conclusion at the bottom in any way. Why did you do that? It already was a fairly small post, and it's especially odd that you would remove the context from my statements while pitching a fit about how I wasn't representing yours properly.You posted lies about what I said and didn’t quote me. I quoted those lies and explained that they were lies. If you think the context of a statement is more important than the actual truth about what was written in a thread, I don’t really think it’s possible for me to usefully communicate with you. You’re going to have to start responding to what was written, not what you vaguely imagine from a skimread, or this isn’t going to work.
I’m going to be patient, and respond to your question. The difference between saying that an event is improbable compared to plausible alternatives and saying that scum would never be audacious enough to do it is that one is the first thing I just said and the other is the second.
At this point I'm just quoting the end of this thread. Let's see if I can't unravel the sheet you're hiding behind.
In any case, readslist:Why am I lean-town when Lidku is Null? And not for the same reasons Shakerag is null, just that he's not rocking the boat. That is in and of itself suspicious, town should be hunting. A lot of this is tunneling Fal all day 1, and now into day 2 even with the supposed town confirmation.
(rather quick and scrappy, as it turns out, because I know who I have as scum already.)
Egan_BW: Lean scum. Highly dubious claim, admittedly. Many dubious points such as "haha we're both scum" with a nervy response from FoU as their first interaction, lack of suspects... and this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389865#msg8389865). If scum, probably with FoU.
FallacyofUrist: Scum. I don't really think there's going to be an omega-miller and a specialised-miller in the same game. If there are, Web has essentially created a bastard game instead of anything like a newbie game. I stand by my reasoning about the unlikelihood of a miller gambit + specialised miller guess on Egan's part, so I'm pretty sure FoU is scum. They also claimed miller quite late, which is not a townie thing to do.
Knightwing64: probably town. Tone reads as genuine (though mafia can get annoyed). D1
Lenglon: highly emotionally invested town. Obsessively pushing newer players and bringing in emotional/moral judgements, so helping noone, but probably louder D1 than they'd bother being as scum.
Lidku:Null. Not rocking the boat much. This post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389821#msg8389821) contains an "I'll vote if you insist", but Lidku may just be an unusually strong beginner, still liable to make that kind of error.
Maximum Spin: Weak scum lean. I can never really read Max well, but his defence of FoU over ER was a bit off.
Shakerag: Null. Not doing anything too aggressive, fair amount of activity. Not applying much vote pressure but asking questions. Strong and experienced enough that I'm very unlikely to catch them out D1, so can't call them town. Someone missing facetiousness is the subtlest tell I know, but if they're just autistic, it's not one I can use.
TricMagic: Lean town. Slightly ghostly presence but has made claims about what they'll be doing tonight, asked some reasonable questions.[/spoiler]
In conclusion: Kill Fallacy Now.
« Reply #256 on: July 12, 2022, 08:55:01 am »
This is when NJW voted Fal. While he made other votes during the day, at a quick glance they're all Fal. Which messes with Mamobo something fierce since the asterisk only counts the most recent. Before that it was Max during the game start, on his first post. We can pretty much dismiss it since there was no follow up and the Fal vote is the third post, second with actual meat to it, lean as it is.
In any case, Lidku and NJW are both on Fal at Page 28.
... That's it.. Looking back over day one, the number of NJW posts is shockingly small. The reads list is the last bit of data we have that day. One thing that stood out is the lack of... Connection NJW had with most players. Compared to the many many posts between the main 4 which make up the bulk of day 1, it's very stringy.
So yeah, posting.
Post by: Lidku on July 17, 2022, 09:51:53 am
Quote from: TricMagic
That's it.. Looking back over day one, the number of NJW posts is shockingly small.
Ironic you say that to begin with, considering it was YOU that was noted on D1 of having little to no posts/activity. Remember I was the one trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, and say that inactivity is not a strong reason to suspect someone?
Quote from: TricMagic
... Sigh.... Really Lidku? Out of context this would be rather horrible.
How even "out of context" does that post you quoted seem "rather horrible"? You just quoted but didn't really elaborate, just detracting it seems. Where is your argumentative logic in claiming it would be "horrible out of context"?
Quote from: TricMagic
Probobly a bit late.. But if nothing is done on Day 1, there is nothing to go off of on day 2. Being worried about town numbers is odd when there are 9 of us.
And yet you were barely active to begin with on D1, which was bringing suspicions on you in the first place, and in which I tried to defend you against people soft-claiming against you for inactivity.
Quote from: TricMagic
In any case, Lidku and NJW are both on Fal at Page 28.
I don't know particularly about NJW, but to speak for myself, I simply just noted the inherent weirdness of FallacyofUrist's ability and how it interacted with Maximum Spin being isolated by the crane. It wasn't a case of me being "on FallacyofUrist".
Lidku: If you’re going to vote someone, do it because you think they’re scum, not because it’s just easier to leave a vote on them. Do you think I am mafia, with high or moderate confidence, or are you just voting so Lenglon doesn’t hunt you down?
The page you even mention (pg.28) is where Fallacy convinced me to change my D1 vote to you TricMagic, since I started to feel strongest of you being scum, due to your weird behavior on D1. Your argument on me being "on Fallacy" doesn't make sense since my end-of-day vote remained on you, while everyone else was either dogpiling on either Egan or Fallacy (in which you were part of the vote on Egan).
Also, didn't you inference Knightwing and NJW being on a team a few posts ago? Why did that evaporate?
Post in question:
To note, my day 1 actions means I'm fine with dying Knightwing. I'm kinda wondering if this is a way to try and save NJW now...
What did you mean by this post exactly? Are you relaying that you think Knightwing could be using somesort of tactic to "save NJW" from being lynched (since everyone in the thread seems to be focusing on him now)? And if so, why did you post this but not elaborate further, instead moving on to me at random being in a team with NJW, with shaky arguments (which were just quoting things from the thread and just inputting some blurbs.. nothing truly extensive).
As for your direct question for me:
Quote from: TricMagic
Lidku, a question for you. What should town do to achieve cohesion and trust in one another?
It was something I already mentioned before in the thread. Just being inquisitorial but be sportsmen-like about it. No need to get a player riled to a point where they're throwing around insults and having bad feelings with each other. Aggression isn't a license just to make people feel bad about the game.
But I feel like the aggression has simmered down lately, so it's not really something I'm worrying about at the moment.
Post by: Mamobo on July 17, 2022, 10:02:57 am
------------------------
FallacyofUrist - 0 - Shakerag* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390943#msg8390943),
Knightwing64 - 0 -
Lenglon - 0 -
Lidku - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
NJW2000 - 0 - TricMagic* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8391173#msg8391173), FallacyofUrist* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8391193#msg8391193),
Shakerag - 0 -
TricMagic - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 1 - Knightwing64, Lenglon, Lidku, Maximum Spin* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390734#msg8390734), NJW2000,
1 to Hammer. Day ends on July 18, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (~33 hours remaining).
NOTE: Players without votes are displayed in italics.
Post by: TricMagic on July 17, 2022, 10:22:22 am
Is this really inactivity though? They've been pushing for a Fal lynch, been pushing a case, but the overall number of posts is fairly small. While they could be called quality, there needs to be more Day 2 to actually push the lynch and convince Lenglon.Quote from: TricMagicThat's it.. Looking back over day one, the number of NJW posts is shockingly small.
Ironic you say that to begin with, considering it was YOU that was noted on D1 of having little to no posts/activity. Remember I was the one trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, and say that inactivity is not a strong reason to suspect someone?
I'll admit my wall isn't the easiest to read, but I don't think their case is convincing enough to lynch someone they themselves got a town result from. It's odd they're pushing it in the first place I guess.
Shouldn't really need to. Put simply, you're saying you'd either want to investigate Lenglon, which is fair but horrid with the context of day 2, Egan, which is likewise such with day 2, or me, which is pointless given my lack of posts. It's something that looking back could be used to push an argument that you don't really want to build a town-core of people. While Godfather's may be a possibility, if you could confirm a strong player as town you could use that to snip away at the veil hiding who the mafia actually is. Lenglon's the only person in this list that is useful for that, and by tying them to Egan and I makes it seems like you're casting shade on Lenglon's town status.Quote from: TricMagic... Sigh.... Really Lidku? Out of context this would be rather horrible.
How even "out of context" does that post you quoted seem "rather horrible"? You just quoted but didn't really elaborate, just detracting it seems. Where is your argumentative logic in claiming it would be "horrible out of context"?
An issue with this is that I was putting myself out there during the times I posted.Quote from: TricMagicProbobly a bit late.. But if nothing is done on Day 1, there is nothing to go off of on day 2. Being worried about town numbers is odd when there are 9 of us.
And yet you were barely active to begin with on D1, which was bringing suspicions on you in the first place, and in which I tried to defend you against people soft-claiming against you for inactivity.
I am still very annoyed at you not comprehending things Lidku. Protecting afk players cause they're busy with RL is both easy brownie points and could be segwayed into protecting an absent-ish mafia player.... Really Lidku? I just explained what my role ability was.
You're saying that your role is "An Entire Game of BYOR Mafia," which was Maximum Spin's chosen role for the previous BYOR game we were in (and like I pointed out before, a role you didn't have in the previous game, but something else you had). His role didn't have the ability you claim it does; the ability to supposedly grab other abilities from a previous game?
Can you please elaborate on what you're trying to explain about your role? Does it have the same abilities as Maximum Spin in the previous game; or is this some new ability you're claiming this previous role has, as something new that webadict had added to it?
Do you really think webadict would just reuse a role? I've already explained it, I can grab an ability from the previous game at the end of each day. And active abilities become 1-shots. Useless if I get lynched before I can even get one though.
If going by numbers, I still have more posts than NJW. Even if a good number is being suspisous and trying to draw a night-kill. Which just ended up with me having to reveal my role early, apparently.. I'm no good at drawing NKs it seems.
Did you even bother to look at the page? It's right at the top, and at the moment both of you were voting Fal. That simple, doesn't matter if there is a case or not, just a statement of fact.Quote from: TricMagicIn any case, Lidku and NJW are both on Fal at Page 28.
I don't know particularly about NJW, but to speak for myself, I simply just noted the inherent weirdness of FallacyofUrist's ability and how it interacted with Maximum Spin being isolated by the crane. It wasn't a case of me being "on FallacyofUrist".
I'll note that was litteally last night for me. I just went through day one and picked up the posts, a reread and my thoughts. You know, the types of thing that lets other people see your inner workings? NJW's posts look fine on day 1, but on day 2 looking back, well. Hindsight is 20/20, and they don't look nearly as good now.Lidku: If you’re going to vote someone, do it because you think they’re scum, not because it’s just easier to leave a vote on them. Do you think I am mafia, with high or moderate confidence, or are you just voting so Lenglon doesn’t hunt you down?
The page you even mention (pg.28) is where Fallacy convinced me to change my D1 vote to you TricMagic, since I started to feel strongest of you being scum, due to your weird behavior on D1. Your argument on me being "on Fallacy" doesn't make sense since my end-of-day vote remained on you, while everyone else was either dogpiling on either Egan or Fallacy (in which you were part of the vote on Egan).
Also, didn't you inference Knightwing and NJW being on a team a few posts ago? Why did that evaporate?
Post in question:To note, my day 1 actions means I'm fine with dying Knightwing. I'm kinda wondering if this is a way to try and save NJW now...
What did you mean by this post exactly? Are you relaying that you think Knightwing could be using somesort of tactic to "save NJW" from being lynched (since everyone in the thread seems to be focusing on him now)? And if so, why did you post this but not elaborate further, instead moving on to me at random being in a team with NJW, with shaky arguments (which were just quoting things from the thread and just inputting some blurbs.. nothing truly extensive).
Your end of day vote being on me is also completely useless. While it pushed me to reveal my role, that also rendered me fairly safe from the lynch, allowing me to fulfill my set condition. You never actually pushed it. It's more an attempted bandwagon vote than anything else, if you weren't going to push it, then you should have gone after other suspected targets. This is part of what I meant by you having no impact on me day 1.
As for your direct question for me:This was more a baited question, so good work on not falling for it and sticking to your root. Doesn't help me push a case on you, mind, but some fail and others catch a werewolf. (Catching out Moony is a highlight of my mafia gaming career on this forum. Wonder if you're be the next.)Quote from: TricMagicLidku, a question for you. What should town do to achieve cohesion and trust in one another?
It was something I already mentioned before in the thread. Just being inquisitorial but be sportsmen-like about it. No need to get a player riled to a point where they're throwing around insults and having bad feelings with each other. Aggression isn't a license just to make people feel bad about the game.
But I feel like the aggression has simmered down lately, so it's not really something I'm worrying about at the moment.
Ninja Mamobo.
Post by: TricMagic on July 17, 2022, 10:24:32 am
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 17, 2022, 11:50:37 am
Honestly, my top scumpick right now would be Shakerag, but only because he's flying under the radar so much.Huh. Okay. I can actually get on board with this completely. Shakerag has been stubbornly null and I've been getting more and more concerned about it. I was expecting to have to wait until tomorrow to push on it. Do you have any previous Shakerag meta to back it up? I really don't myself. I'm not sure we've ever played together, certainly not very much.
For the record, I do read every post, even the long kind of repetitive TricMagic posts that drive me nuts even though he is making valid points, but it's hard to keep everything in memory when the day is boring me like this. I don't deal well with not having a vote. :P
But since Lenglon wants us to fake vote, Shakerag, tentatively.
Post by: Lidku on July 17, 2022, 12:30:36 pm
Quote from: TricMagic
Put simply, you're saying you'd either want to investigate Lenglon, which is fair but horrid with the context of day 2, Egan, which is likewise such with day 2, or me, which is pointless given my lack of posts.
Your first two points are nonsensical, as you're projecting the past into the present. At the time of me answering Lenglon's question of who I wanted to theoretically investigate, if I had the ability, it was Day 1. It just seems like you're scrambling here, TricMagic
I fail to see how the advent of Day 2 itself brings any horrid context; except maybe for Egan being revealed as Town during the lynch, but they weren't even some I voted to lynch against and even though I was both suspicious of FallacyofUrist and Egan for their "Miller" abilities, I chose to lean into suspecting Fallacy over Egan of all things.
Lenglon is one of the people who there is a consensus they are the most probable Town, but there is no definitive proof that they necessarily are Town (which an Investigation ability would clear), so again.. no real "horrid context" I can imagine you seeing here.
Quote from: TricMagic
Did you even bother to look at the page? It's right at the top, and at the moment both of you were voting Fal. That simple, doesn't matter if there is a case or not, just a statement of fact.
For someone who talks about contexts, you seem to forget that I only voted FallacyofUrist because I felt pressured to vote by the others, and at that time, I felt it was more important to mechanically solve than to rely on purely "social" means of deduction (which my view on has gradually changed)
Anyways, since I'm being pressured to vote, I'll put one on FallacyofUrist. I just find him kinda shady, but nothing truly strong..
Just making statements isn't enough, TricMagic. Have a statement THEN follow it up with some good reasoning. By saying just because me and NJW happened to have voted for FallacyofUrist, you make an inference we could be a team? Explain your reasoning and don't just leave empty "statements".
And while I answered your question to me:
As for your direct question for me:This was more a baited question, so good work on not falling for it and sticking to your root. Doesn't help me push a case on you, mind, but some fail and others catch a werewolf. (Catching out Moony is a highlight of my mafia gaming career on this forum. Wonder if you're be the next.)Quote from: TricMagicLidku, a question for you. What should town do to achieve cohesion and trust in one another?
It was something I already mentioned before in the thread. Just being inquisitorial but be sportsmen-like about it. No need to get a player riled to a point where they're throwing around insults and having bad feelings with each other. Aggression isn't a license just to make people feel bad about the game.
But I feel like the aggression has simmered down lately, so it's not really something I'm worrying about at the moment.
You have conveniently ignored mine?
Also, didn't you inference Knightwing and NJW being on a team a few posts ago? Why did that evaporate?
Post in question:To note, my day 1 actions means I'm fine with dying Knightwing. I'm kinda wondering if this is a way to try and save NJW now...
What did you mean by this post exactly? Are you relaying that you think Knightwing could be using somesort of tactic to "save NJW" from being lynched (since everyone in the thread seems to be focusing on him now)? And if so, why did you post this but not elaborate further, instead moving on to me at random being in a team with NJW, with shaky arguments (which were just quoting things from the thread and just inputting some blurbs.. nothing truly extensive).
Did you just mistakenly gloss over it, or chose not to answer it for other unknown reasons?
Post by: NJW2000 on July 17, 2022, 12:57:30 pm
Spoiler: replies to Lenglon/FoU (click to show/hide)
NJW: Do you mind saying who you think is scum at this time and why?Believe me, that's what I want to be working on, rather than arguing with Fallacy about a case on him I already dropped.
Right now, I'm most suspicious of Shakerag, as I've said, because he's being uncharacteristically quiet and just put you in a position where you're incentivised to not eliminate him. I mean, clearing and bodyguarding the person with the only vote? That may just be chance, but it looks dubious.
I would be going after FoU for some of the stuff he's posted today, but I'm *reasonably* convinced by the inspect, I don't think he's a godfather unless Web is screwing with us in a very specific and pointless way. I haven't read the Tric/Lidku stuff yet, but it might be alignment indicative, one lives in hope.
Will get to Lidku's question(s?) within... a few hours, hopefully. Just give me a second. That's a bunch of unspoilered textwalls to find questions in.
Post by: Lenglon on July 17, 2022, 02:18:37 pm
@1) okay, but that's not a response to what FoU actually said. He accused you of dismissing arguments without engagement, you... dismissed this argument without engaging with it.
@4) I think you might want to check the timeline of things, because that does not line up with the order that things happened in. You were more sympathetic when I had the moment of doll confusion, voted you, and swore at you. When I apologized, backed off, and stopped presenting myself in a confrontational and threatening way was when you became less sympathetic and fully disengaged.
@5) That does sound accurate to me.
@6) so your response is that you decided that in FoU's case you want to evaluate off of claims and mechanics instead of behavior, and are also accusing his behavior of being Look At Me I'm So Town. Is this correct?
@9) I suppose that's fine, but it is his summary and conclusion, and it would help avoid the accusations of dismissing arguments without engagement if you at least engaged with that part fully
And I see your argument about Shake. Do you think Shake should be today's lynch, or would you prefer someone else be the lynch for today?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 17, 2022, 02:26:15 pm
One thing I want to note straight away is that there's a difference between 'not doing x' and 'opposite of x'.
NJW2000 was not saying 'FoU isn't scumhunting', he was not saying 'FoU is scumhunting'. Refusing to acknowledge positive points is different than asserting their opposite.
In any case I now need to make another mega post with all the replies and such to what's already been said.
Then another one for the NJW-Lenglon Day 1 scuffles.
Then another one for Shakerag.
Long deep sigh. Alright, let's get on with it.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 17, 2022, 02:57:36 pm
NJW2000 was not saying 'FoU isn't scumhunting', he was not saying 'FoU is scumhunting'. Refusing to acknowledge positive points is different than asserting their opposite.I honestly do not understand why it is so important to you that he say that.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 17, 2022, 03:00:07 pm
Excluding me, and Lenglon, this leaves TricMagic*, Maximum Spin*, FallacyofUrist*, and Shakerag. At least one of these are scum. I would suspect fallacy due to the suspicious reaction to Egan’s joking about them being scum, and the fact that when I voted them, they sounded rather panicked until I explained myself. As well, they were the other major voting target.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 17, 2022, 03:30:43 pm
[1] You see why I complain about people not reading my posts? I don't make that many, it's not hard.[1] It seems to me like you're unhappy people aren't reading your posts the way you want them to, not in general.
[2] And again, with someone preemptively going "NJW is going to represent my points, boo-hoo!". This game is tedious.
[2] Given you pulled a bunch of your usual tricks again, yes, I think I'm justified in complaining.
I mean, I've pressed a bunch of people on stuff I found disturbing: Shake on the not-seeing-facetiousness tell, Max on his preference for Egan over you, Tric on what could have been a scumslip but it's very hard to tell with Tric, Egan on knowingly playing weakly and using his newness as an excuse, etc. So yeah, I've been looking for scum.Where are your detailed cases? You can point out individually scummy things, but you've never shown me the drive to take someone and get them executed.
As to the fact you've been scumhunting... sure you have. I acknowledge you did it D1, and I implicitly acknowledged it then by, you know, not pointing out "this vet isn't scumhunting at all, that's crazy!".I don't think I'm okay with 'implicit acknowledgement'. When something is relevant, you need to address it.
[1] Thing is, mafia can scumhunt too. You're a forum vet, so if you couldn't convincingly fake looking for scum, you'd have a reputation for being incredibly easily read. Which I'm pretty sure you don't.[1] Unfortunately this point is a bit convoluted since 90% of my games on this site have been as scum or third party. My reputation is inherently unbalanced.
[2] You eliminated Egan at least in part for not scumhunting as much and as loudly as other players, even though that was stupid, because of course they wouldn't, they're were a newbie miller in a crazy BYOR game.
[3] Again, you seem to have this mistaken idea that scumhunting -> always town, not scumhunting -> always scum. It doesn't.
[4] And you're insisting that the first one means people can't scumread you.
[2] I've seen Egan playing before - er. Maybe I haven't. Okay, you have a point here, and I forgot to take into account the meta situation when hunting Egan. I don't think I would have gone after them so hard if I realized their relative lack of experience.
[3] No evidence is absolute. I believe that being an active participant in the game, by hunting down scum and creating cases for those you think are scum, is the strongest towntell possible. Likewise, not hunting down scum and not creating detailed cases is the strongest scumtell possible.
[4] No, I'm not. This is misrepresentation, again. I never said you can't scum read me. My point is that if you want to say I'm scum, you have to take into account all the evidence that you can. Not just mechanics stuff.
An argument that doesn't even address my behavior isn't a good one.
I don't vote based on virtue, I vote on who I actually think is scum.Does town-virtue not correlate with who is town?
How do you determine who is town and who is scum, if you refuse to take into account 'virtue'?
Okay, I didn't argue clearly enough in this case. In the quote you took here, I was referring to your day-one behavior. Changing your read later on is okay.QuoteBecause, to put it simply, that is the strongest evidence against his argument that I must be scum. If I am actively scum hunting, attacking, creating cases - if I am acting town in every way other than claiming partial-miller late, then it undercuts his case, so he simply refuses to acknowledge it, and minimizes my points whenever possible.
Again, stop representing me as saying you must be scum. I thought you were the best choice D1, I don't have 100% confidence in my D1 reads.
Besides, you posted this in your mega-post after me, HERE (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8391170#msg8391170), explicitly stating that I don't think you're mafia. Unless you were referring to my case yesterday, but the point stands that a mafia player can look active and helpful, while a town player like Egan can look unhelpful. Would have been nice to see some evidence that you actually read that post, but hey.
I really wish people would actually read my posts.
If you're going to make a case on someone, you have to take into account the evidence for them being town as well as the evidence against them being town.NJW2000 was not saying 'FoU isn't scumhunting', he was not saying 'FoU is scumhunting'. Refusing to acknowledge positive points is different than asserting their opposite.I honestly do not understand why it is so important to you that he say that.
... Which means I need to make another post that's specifically dedicated to addressing how NJW2000 doesn't actually contribute to the game in a townie fashion. Joy.
I would suspect fallacy due to the suspicious reaction to Egan’s joking about them being scum, and the fact that when I voted them, they sounded rather panicked until I explained myself. As well, they were the other major voting target.If you have a specific post you're referring to, it'd be a good idea to quote it. You can use the 'quote' button in the top right corner of a post to do this.
It makes it easier to address your points, and punctuates what you're saying.
NJW2000 represents my role as absurd or unlikely, however they have experience with webadict's prior modding, which would suggest that my role is reasonable, even if webadict has scaled down to Beginner's level. Egan's role flip also provides an example of the level of power/complexity our mod is willing to create, and NJW2000 has also seen this. In spite of that NJW2000 argues my role is unlikely to truly exist.FoU: I am having trouble understanding what you're pushing at here. Could you please rephrase this accusation? It seems to me like your narrative of NJW's behavior is contradictory, and that makes the narrative far less convincing.Spoiler: Section 2 (click to show/hide)
FoU: I don't actually mind NJW asking for you to repeat something you'd said before in a slightly different way, it is a scumhunting tactic that gives a liar a chance to trip up and contradict themselves.I can see what you mean, but from my point of view, it looks like he just ignored what my post said.
FoU: To be fair, at the time NJW said these things you had not presented your case yet. I don't mind dismissing a case that hasn't been made yet as a case that hasn't been made yet. Also, this section feels kinda misrepresentation-ey, which I'd really REALLY prefer if you avoided doing when part of your own case is that NJW is misrepresentation-ey.While it is true I had not created my case yet at this point in time, I had stated my intention to do so. NJW2000 said, roughly speaking 'you're saying that I'm scum without showing evidence', failing to respond to the fact that I had publicly announced that I was going to be creating a full case.
I'll reiterate my point now that NJW2000 does not acknowledge evidence that would contradict his points against me. I am specifically noting absence, not contradiction.
[1] 1. I genuinely think FoU has been posting a lot of nonsense. "Why won't you acknowledge my scumhunting?" is half of his main argument against me. I explain why this is a worthless thing for a vet to post about above. So yeah, I'll dismiss his arguments.[1] I disagree. Scumhunting is strongly indicative of level of engagement with the game, which is a key component of towniness/scuminness. Specifically because NJW2000 is a veteran player, he should be creating cases and hunting down players. He is not.
[2] 4. My attitude to you changed between your posts, and I became less sympathetic to the doll confusion, after you voted and swore at me. Is this confusing?
[3] 5. I'm not sure which bit, but use without attribution post is here.QuotePosting from phone (you have no idea how annoying this formatting is to create) to point out that the “lack of suspects” thing NJW claims to suspect Egan for is one of the points I came up with, pretty much directly taken from my post. NJW does not mention this.He actually says taking so it does mean stealing nyaah.
I have no idea why he would post that unless to sus me, in which case he is kinda suggesting I stole it? I don't really get the distinction here, it seems like an insanely subtle quibble.
[3.5] Interesting that FoU is hitting the misrepresentation note hard - I think he really wants you to vote me, and is willing to be fairly instrumental about it. Still pretty much NAI though.
[4] 6. I misunderstand him once, because I think "non-claim" refers to all the not claiming he's been doing. Then I post once briefly at the end of the day and don't answer him. I've already stated that I find the miller stuff strong enough to vote on, as well as a few odd interactions with Egan and weak pushes, and that I only expect very slight tells like that from a vet D1. Fallacy is repeatedly yelling that my case can't be reasonable because he has been scumhunting and being active. That's the thing he wants me to answer here. Literally LAMIST.
I've already addressed this, I feel.
[5] 7. Do you want a line by line of this? It's mostly wrong, but the most damning thing is his:
"The strongest point I have to make is that NJW2000 is not hunting scum, and refuses to acknowledge that that is what I am doing."
Which is clearly a very weak "point". I have been hunting scum, and I am not obliged to acknowledge that FoU scumhunts, it's expected of him as either alignment. I never said he didn't scumhunt, so why is he repeatedly asking me to acknowledge it?
Note that he has not created a case on Shakerag, who he is arguing is scum.
[2] Lenglon addresses this point herself, I believe.
[3] I'm okay with players using my content. It's not about the usage. It's that you argued on Day 1 that Egan and I were likely the scumteam without considering why I would make the point about Egan that they possessed no suspicions. Using that point yourself proves you were aware of it, but you never addressed why I would make it.
[3.5] Yes, I want Lenglon to vote you. She has the only vote today. I want players who I think are scum to be executed. Is this weird?
[4] Your case is unreasonable because it does not address my behavior. "Non-claim" refers to every post I make that does not specifically involve my night / role claims.
[5] Then where are your cases? You made points about scumminess, but the most we saw as a case was in your reads list. There was no specific, focused, detailed attention given to catching out a single player.
Believe me, that's what I want to be working on, rather than arguing with Fallacy about a case on him I already dropped.I should also note minimization and invalidation. As scum, you want to make your opponents' cases on you look pointless or not based in fact. This is the equivalent of NJW2000 saying 'Fallacy has no real points, ignore them'.
To summarize, part two:
NJW2000 argues that scumhunting is not indicative of alignment. I counter that engagement with the game is a key tell, and scumhunting is a part of this.
NJW2000 does not factor in town tells in his Day 1 argument. I do not believe he is doing so Day 2 either.
NJW2000 says he 'scum hunts', but pointing out individual problematic behaviors and tells does not a full case make.
Bah. One megapost down, something like two to three more to go.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 17, 2022, 03:32:41 pm
[2] I've seen Egan playing before - er. Maybe I haven't. Okay, you have a point here, and I forgot to take into account the meta situation when hunting Egan. I don't think I would have gone after them so hard if I realized their relative lack of experience.You absolutely have. The most recent example was the KWN where we were mafia together and he was cult.
Post by: Lenglon on July 17, 2022, 03:42:46 pm
I think FoU is saying he's not seen Egan's townplay, only games with Egan as scum.[2] I've seen Egan playing before - er. Maybe I haven't. Okay, you have a point here, and I forgot to take into account the meta situation when hunting Egan. I don't think I would have gone after them so hard if I realized their relative lack of experience.You absolutely have. The most recent example was the KWN where we were mafia together and he was cult.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 17, 2022, 03:43:07 pm
Right. But they weren't town that game, were they?[2] I've seen Egan playing before - er. Maybe I haven't. Okay, you have a point here, and I forgot to take into account the meta situation when hunting Egan. I don't think I would have gone after them so hard if I realized their relative lack of experience.You absolutely have. The most recent example was the KWN where we were mafia together and he was cult.
I think FoU is saying he's not seen Egan's townplay, only games with Egan as scum.Yes, thank you.
Post by: TricMagic on July 17, 2022, 03:44:55 pm
Positive points make your target look town. Scum doesn't want that. So only point out negative points. By saying Fal isn't scumhunting, that can be used to push a lynch on them. Not that that is looking at all likely now, soNJW2000 was not saying 'FoU isn't scumhunting', he was not saying 'FoU is scumhunting'. Refusing to acknowledge positive points is different than asserting their opposite.I honestly do not understand why it is so important to you that he say that.
Post by: TricMagic on July 17, 2022, 03:46:04 pm
-they've started going after Shakerag for lack of interaction today. Or somesuch. Better to lynch town than get lynched yourself right?Positive points make your target look town. Scum doesn't want that. So only point out negative points. By saying Fal isn't scumhunting, that can be used to push a lynch on them. Not that that is looking at all likely now, soNJW2000 was not saying 'FoU isn't scumhunting', he was not saying 'FoU is scumhunting'. Refusing to acknowledge positive points is different than asserting their opposite.I honestly do not understand why it is so important to you that he say that.
Post by: Lidku on July 17, 2022, 03:48:02 pm
It’s a fairly safe assumption that at least one of the scum voted Egan, who was town.
Excluding me, and Lenglon, this leaves TricMagic*, Maximum Spin*, FallacyofUrist*, and Shakerag. At least one of these are scum. I would suspect fallacy due to the suspicious reaction to Egan’s joking about them being scum, and the fact that when I voted them, they sounded rather panicked until I explained myself. As well, they were the other major voting target.
What's your reasoning for excluding Lenglon and not just equally assume everyone who voted Egan could have been Mafia?
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 17, 2022, 03:48:31 pm
By saying Fal isn't scumhunting, that can be used to push a lynch on them.Sure, but he didn't say that. Fallacy's complaining that NJW just didn't point out that he was scumhunting, which, while a point, seems a lot more minor to me than Fallacy seems to think.
Right. But they weren't town that game, were they?Right, of course. Hardly anyone has seen Egan's townplay. You're both among the cursed. :PI think FoU is saying he's not seen Egan's townplay, only games with Egan as scum.Yes, thank you.
Post by: Lenglon on July 17, 2022, 03:58:48 pm
[3] I'm okay with players using my content. It's not about the usage. It's that you argued on Day 1 that Egan and I were likely the scumteam without considering why I would make the point about Egan that they possessed no suspicions. Using that point yourself proves you were aware of it, but you never addressed why I would make it.I understand you are busy, but it would be nice for you to address this point of FoU's in particular.
Post by: NJW2000 on July 17, 2022, 04:10:00 pm
NJW: Thank you for responding.1) I explained why I would be dismissive of one of Fal's posts. I feel that addresses using it as a scumtell to some extent, but ultimately I exhibited a tell, sure.
@1) okay, but that's not a response to what FoU actually said. He accused you of dismissing arguments without engagement, you... dismissed this argument without engaging with it.
@4) I think you might want to check the timeline of things, because that does not line up with the order that things happened in. You were more sympathetic when I had the moment of doll confusion, voted you, and swore at you. When I apologized, backed off, and stopped presenting myself in a confrontational and threatening way was when you became less sympathetic and fully disengaged.
@5) That does sound accurate to me.
@6) so your response is that you decided that in FoU's case you want to evaluate off of claims and mechanics instead of behavior, and are also accusing his behavior of being Look At Me I'm So Town. Is this correct?
@9) I suppose that's fine, but it is his summary and conclusion, and it would help avoid the accusations of dismissing arguments without engagement if you at least engaged with that part fully
And I see your argument about Shake. Do you think Shake should be today's lynch, or would you prefer someone else be the lynch for today?
4) True, on a reread. I think I was probably just sick of going through the same stuff when it wasn't very key in the first place... your later posts also contained insults and confusions, and I was pretty sure I wouldn't convince you it was reasonable to elim Fal before Egan.
6) I mostly went of mechanics and claims yesterday. His current behaviour is LAMIST, which is annoying as hell because I think he's town.
9) I'll go back to it and answer the parts I haven't engaged with... but I'm getting textwalled here, and don't necessarily have time/inclination to keep up.
Right now, Shakerag, but I don't have a strong case on him. Haven't found anyone I strongly believe is scum - the new players all read town if sometimes a bit flailing, and I'm struggling to see the max/fal/you thing as involving mafia... Still trying to figure out what's going on or being said between Tric and Lidku, and barely have my head above water on the replies front.
Just seen that last reply... I know the huge wall of quotes is there.
NJW:Hey, I thought it could be you/Max. Besides, I don't make entire-scumteam guesses D1 and assign them high probability, I don't think of myself as a genius. Your point was in itself correct about Egan - you could have made it as bussing scum. I still don't see what's confusing about the fact I found it fairly convincing.[3] I'm okay with players using my content. It's not about the usage. It's that you argued on Day 1 that Egan and I were likely the scumteam without considering why I would make the point about Egan that they possessed no suspicions. Using that point yourself proves you were aware of it, but you never addressed why I would make it.I understand you are busy, but it would be nice for you to address this point of FoU's in particular.
Possibly I would have more cases if I had a moment to post on anything but replies...
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 17, 2022, 04:27:52 pm
It’s a fairly safe assumption that at least one of the scum voted Egan, who was town.
Excluding me, and Lenglon, this leaves TricMagic*, Maximum Spin*, FallacyofUrist*, and Shakerag. At least one of these are scum. I would suspect fallacy due to the suspicious reaction to Egan’s joking about them being scum, and the fact that when I voted them, they sounded rather panicked until I explained myself. As well, they were the other major voting target.
What's your reasoning for excluding Lenglon and not just equally assume everyone who voted Egan could have been Mafia?
Because I trust Lenglon as confirmed town, which I’ve said multiple times. and I’m getting more suspicious of you, you are acting off.
Also…
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 17, 2022, 04:36:53 pm
Possibly I would have more cases if I had a moment to post on anything but replies...It's okay to disregard the replies temporarily to make a case. It'd probably be a more useful use of your time. Just don't ignore the stuff addressed at you indefinitely.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 17, 2022, 04:37:37 pm
FallacyofUrist: Why are you cursed to always be scum in webadict games? For that matter, why am I?Dearest scumbuddy, don't call me out like that! We're supposed to be undercover -
Which is to say that I am not always scum, because I am definitely totally a loyal Town scum hunter this time around.
And I bet you are too.My thoughts on everyone right now generally: Game has just started, so there is nothing to go off of in terms of suspicion. Some people have posted, but not enough.. but reasonable to understand, considering how late it is currently (Eastern US time, for me, specifically)A bit early, but I appreciate the enthusiasm!
Shame you're definitely scum.
This whole interaction is weird.
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 17, 2022, 04:38:00 pm
FallacyKnightwing, are you aware that if the vote is tied at the end of the day, scum decide who is executed? You just tied the vote.
Maybe it’s just me, but this read to me as “oh shit what is he doing, ABORT”
Post by: TricMagic on July 17, 2022, 04:41:58 pm
Right now, Shakerag, but I don't have a strong case on him. Haven't found anyone I strongly believe is scum - the new players all read town if sometimes a bit flailing, and I'm struggling to see the max/fal/you thing as involving mafia... Still trying to figure out what's going on or being said between Tric and Lidku, and barely have my head above water on the replies front.
Just seen that last reply... I know the huge wall of quotes is there.NJW:Hey, I thought it could be you/Max. Besides, I don't make entire-scumteam guesses D1 and assign them high probability, I don't think of myself as a genius. Your point was in itself correct about Egan - you could have made it as bussing scum. I still don't see what's confusing about the fact I found it fairly convincing.[3] I'm okay with players using my content. It's not about the usage. It's that you argued on Day 1 that Egan and I were likely the scumteam without considering why I would make the point about Egan that they possessed no suspicions. Using that point yourself proves you were aware of it, but you never addressed why I would make it.I understand you are busy, but it would be nice for you to address this point of FoU's in particular.
Possibly I would have more cases if I had a moment to post on anything but replies...
One solution is to build your case first, then post it regardless of how many replies there are. Also, moving Fal to a Town-Read. they make good points. (Not going to point them out mind, but that's mostly time-saving.)
My main thing against Lidku is misconstruction. You're also guilty of it, and accuse others of it.
Nin. To answer Lidku's old question... Well, I don't have an answer to give you, given that you seem to miss stuff like the misconstruction of my own posts. One qustion to ask Knightwing is thus, what are the chances Scum weren't on Egan's Wagon?Possibly I would have more cases if I had a moment to post on anything but replies...It's okay to disregard the replies temporarily to make a case. It'd probably be a more useful use of your time. Just don't ignore the stuff addressed at you indefinitely.
Knightwing remains Knightwing I guess.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 17, 2022, 04:42:12 pm
Knightwing, we don't want the mafia to decide who is executed, do we? In the event of a tie, the mafia decide who is executed.FallacyKnightwing, are you aware that if the vote is tied at the end of the day, scum decide who is executed? You just tied the vote.
Maybe it’s just me, but this read to me as “oh shit what is he doing, ABORT”
Which is bad.
This whole interaction is weird.What about it is weird?
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 17, 2022, 04:48:11 pm
Because I trust Lenglon as confirmed town, which I’ve said multiple times. and I’m getting more suspicious of you, you are acting off.I think the question was meant to mean something like "why do you trust Lenglon as confirmed town, especially since Lenglon has not been confirmed as town?"
Or if it wasn't meant to, that's the question he should've asked.
Townreading is one thing, but you can't just go around saying people are confirmed anything.
Post by: Lenglon on July 17, 2022, 04:51:20 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 17, 2022, 04:56:04 pm
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 17, 2022, 05:50:43 pm
Knightwing, we don't want the mafia to decide who is executed, do we? In the event of a tie, the mafia decide who is executed.FallacyKnightwing, are you aware that if the vote is tied at the end of the day, scum decide who is executed? You just tied the vote.
Maybe it’s just me, but this read to me as “oh shit what is he doing, ABORT”
Which is bad.This whole interaction is weird.What about it is weird?
The whole thing, I legit said this in the quote you are replying to.
Not only that, but your response to what I said makes me even more sure of your scumness
Post by: webadict on July 17, 2022, 05:55:32 pm
Vote Tracker
------------------------
Maximum Spin voted FallacyofUrist [#514 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390562#msg8390562)]
Maximum Spin unvoted [#543 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390734#msg8390734)]
TricMagic voted Lidku [#572 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390859#msg8390859)]
Shakerag voted FallacyofUrist [#592 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390943#msg8390943)]
FallacyofUrist voted NJW2000 [#602 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8391131#msg8391131)]
TricMagic voted NJW2000 [#614 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8391173#msg8391173)]
FallacyofUrist voted NJW2000 [#619 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8391193#msg8391193)]
Maximum Spin voted Shakerag [#641 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8391354#msg8391354)]
Post by: Lenglon on July 17, 2022, 08:49:04 pm
Post by: webadict on July 17, 2022, 08:53:07 pm
Web: I like! Is it possible to run it on individual days? Like if we could run that tool on Day 1 specifically so we could see the sequence of votes players made over the course of that day?I'm currently getting it to work on Day 1 posts, with color coordination for Town/scum when they're revealed. It is nearly done, but I need to fix a few of the bugs that are appearing with dead players. Technically, it works now, but there's some minor issues with it.
Post by: webadict on July 17, 2022, 08:57:48 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This is Day 1, fully generated by Mamobo.
It should be possible to narrow down to specific players eventually, but this is everyone on Day 1 right now.
Post by: Shakerag on July 17, 2022, 09:13:56 pm
Knightwing64 doing the hammer is a little sus, but could still be clueless town.
A little wierd FoU was justifying vote on Egan immediately when D2 started.
Assuming FoU is telling the truth, I could see webadict making a role "always scum" as town. But that's outgessing the mod.
There -is- a possibility that NJW2000 and FoU are the scumteam - NJW could be lying about what result he got in regards to FoU.
Knightwing64's argument about who to give "ruler" to is a bit of WIFOM, but potentially believeable.
Lidku is maybe reading town, because of not wanting to use a bus ability. Kind of. Maybe.
Re-thinking FoU. It was known at end of D1 that Max was untargetable by town, so scum would have to be really stupid to target Max. FoU could have been bussed? But I think FoU said he targeted Max regardless...
Lenglon: I dunno. I would personally be hesitant to use a bus ability on N1 if I had one with no good reads.
Lidku: What's wrong with the crane? I'm i'm understanding it correctly it would protect a town from the mafia NK
I am like borderline blackout drunk right now; bear with me.
Tric: Are you -trying- to draw an NK? Why?
Eat my entire ass Max. Why actually are you voting me?
NJW2000: I was "uncharacteristally" quiet because I had a shit day. Weekends are often fucked for me. Take that as you will
Honestly, I don't have a strong read rn on the re-read, but my gut is saying NJW2000 because as scum he would like to not have me protecting Lenglon.
Post by: Shakerag on July 17, 2022, 09:23:36 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 17, 2022, 09:25:31 pm
True, we still haven't ruled out that a NPC Velociraptor was the true scum all along.ಠ_ಠ
Post by: Shakerag on July 17, 2022, 09:27:23 pm
Ignoring the shitpost though, I really would like to learn why Shake is on so many people's "lynch this" list. I am also wondering if Shake will show up today or not.
Weekends are usually bad for me. Sorry. I prolly should have done due dilligance about if this was a "weekend active" game. I chalk that up to me not playing in a very long time.
Post by: Shakerag on July 17, 2022, 09:28:24 pm
Knightwing, we don't want the mafia to decide who is executed, do we? In the event of a tie, the mafia decide who is executed.FallacyKnightwing, are you aware that if the vote is tied at the end of the day, scum decide who is executed? You just tied the vote.
Maybe it’s just me, but this read to me as “oh shit what is he doing, ABORT”
You know today there -can't- be a tie, right? Or were you talking about D1 and/or in general?
Post by: Lidku on July 17, 2022, 09:29:57 pm
Nin. To answer Lidku's old question (which one exactly? Because you didn't bother to quote it when directly asked (your strange possible Knightwing+NJW link)).. Well, I don't have an answer to give you, given that you seem to miss stuff like the misconstruction of my own posts.
Just as I thought. Making blank statements that have no real weight toward them, then when probed on what exactly you mean by them, you just either ignore or scuffle up a light excuse to avoid outright answering. TricMagic is just really acting weird this game.
Post by: TricMagic on July 17, 2022, 09:42:52 pm
Lidku: What's wrong with the crane? I'm i'm understanding it correctly it would protect a town from the mafia NK
I am like borderline blackout drunk right now; bear with me.
Tric: Are you -trying- to draw an NK? Why?
The Crane prevents Town from targeting them, not scum. Hence how Fal's ability would let them bypass it, apparently. Also spent Day 1 to pick up a pretty useful auto. Hitting me with the NK wouldn't do much as a result.
Post by: Shakerag on July 17, 2022, 09:44:27 pm
Lidku: What's wrong with the crane? I'm i'm understanding it correctly it would protect a town from the mafia NK
I am like borderline blackout drunk right now; bear with me.
Tric: Are you -trying- to draw an NK? Why?
The Crane prevents Town from targeting them, not scum. Hence how Fal's ability would let them bypass it, apparently. Also spent Day 1 to pick up a pretty useful auto. Hitting me with the NK wouldn't do much as a result.
oop, you're right. That was a dumbshit thing to say, wannit?
Post by: Lenglon on July 17, 2022, 09:45:29 pm
^_^True, we still haven't ruled out that a NPC Velociraptor was the true scum all along.ಠ_ಠ
Post by: Shakerag on July 17, 2022, 09:46:57 pm
Post by: TricMagic on July 17, 2022, 09:48:33 pm
Ha... You really aren't playing a strong game Lidku, get hunting. Who am I paired with?Nin. To answer Lidku's old question (which one exactly? Because you didn't bother to quote it when directly asked (your strange possible Knightwing+NJW link)).. Well, I don't have an answer to give you, given that you seem to miss stuff like the misconstruction of my own posts.
Just as I thought. Making blank statements that have no real weight toward them, then when probed on what exactly you mean by them, you just either ignore or scuffle up a light excuse to avoid outright answering. TricMagic is just really acting weird this game.
Also.. Why is there sudden italics, don't think that was in mine? You poked at me for ignoring a question, I answered that I wouldn't be answering it.
As is, I'm fairly certain you're the Crane in this scenario Lidku.
Nin.
Ahh, Lidku, if you think someone is scum bus them to Tric then I guess.Yeah... He really should have done that last night, unless it's 1-shot.
Post by: Lidku on July 17, 2022, 09:49:21 pm
Lidku: What's wrong with the crane? I'm i'm understanding it correctly it would protect a town from the mafia NK
I actually say the opposite of what you've posted.
I think the biggest threat to Town is figuring out who's responsible for the crane. It's dangerous because it isolates one Town member and prevents others from doing either Protects, Redirects, Revives - just anything that is a positive ability toward another Town member that might save them.
I don't know why you inferred I said otherwise.
Post by: Shakerag on July 17, 2022, 09:54:30 pm
Lidku: What's wrong with the crane? I'm i'm understanding it correctly it would protect a town from the mafia NK
I actually say the opposite of what you've posted.I think the biggest threat to Town is figuring out who's responsible for the crane. It's dangerous because it isolates one Town member and prevents others from doing either Protects, Redirects, Revives - just anything that is a positive ability toward another Town member that might save them.
I don't know why you inferred I said otherwise.
Alcohol. And a fucking lot of it, to be honest.
Post by: TricMagic on July 17, 2022, 09:54:59 pm
Drunk, tired, cranky. Take you pick from their listed reasons. Instead of throwing a tree on top of them like it's actually subtle in the shade it casts and calling it a feather. It's a brush.Lidku: What's wrong with the crane? I'm i'm understanding it correctly it would protect a town from the mafia NK
I actually say the opposite of what you've posted.I think the biggest threat to Town is figuring out who's responsible for the crane. It's dangerous because it isolates one Town member and prevents others from doing either Protects, Redirects, Revives - just anything that is a positive ability toward another Town member that might save them.
I don't know why you inferred I said otherwise.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 17, 2022, 09:59:55 pm
I think most of us would give you the benefit of the doubt on the weekend. I don't have any problem with your not being too active over the weekend.Ignoring the shitpost though, I really would like to learn why Shake is on so many people's "lynch this" list. I am also wondering if Shake will show up today or not.
Weekends are usually bad for me. Sorry. I prolly should have done due dilligance about if this was a "weekend active" game. I chalk that up to me not playing in a very long time.
It's the rest of the time that's bothering me.
It's not even inactivity, exactly, it's just that you seem so... null. This is the first time I even remember you clearly expressing an opinion that someone is scum. Besides, the Fallacy/NJW angle is covered fully at this point, so I just wanted to raise you as an issue to be considered... the vote means a little less than it normally would for me since I don't get to make the decision. I don't, exactly, think you're mafia, but... most of the people I (think I) can read seem pretty town. At some point I have to assume the exceptions are the exceptions. And you don't seem pretty town, you just seem kind of there. I don't really know if I'll be pushing for you tomorrow or not; it depends on the night results. But for today, when one person has the vote and there's nothing for me to do, I just want to make sure everyone is getting looked at fairly, and it seems a little like Lenglon is biased toward you. Then again, maybe that's just me being antsy about the decision because I have no influence.
Your whiny swearing at me doesn't faze me in the slightest.
Instead of throwing a tree on top of them like it's actually subtle in the shade it casts and calling it a feather. It's a brush.What does this sentence even mean.
Post by: Lidku on July 17, 2022, 10:01:27 pm
Ha... You really aren't playing a strong game Lidku, get hunting.
What exactly do you think I've been doing against you, TricMagic? You're the one I've been inclining to suspect as Mafia since D1 at this point.
Who am I paired with?
I don't know for certain at the moment, but I'm certain looking at you now.
You, however, seem to pair me with everyone under the sun almost every other post, but honestly come up with nothing strong and make up a whole new nonsensical team matchup.
Also.. Why is there sudden italics, don't think that was in mine?
The italics is my own commentary. I thought it would have been obvious, but I'll be sure to make it more so for future scenarios, if necessary.
You poked at me for ignoring a question, I answered that I wouldn't be answering it.
That's not a valid excuse. It just shows you cannot back up your arguments when asked for support for them; or wanting to hide your justification because you're Mafia, for purposes of either detracting or derailing Town.
Post by: Lenglon on July 17, 2022, 10:07:32 pm
It's not even inactivity, exactly, it's just that you seem so... null. This is the first time I even remember you clearly expressing an opinion that someone is scum. Besides, the Fallacy/NJW angle is covered fully at this point, so I just wanted to raise you as an issue to be considered... the vote means a little less than it normally would for me since I don't get to make the decision. I don't, exactly, think you're mafia, but... most of the people I (think I) can read seem pretty town. At some point I have to assume the exceptions are the exceptions. And you don't seem pretty town, you just seem kind of there. I don't really know if I'll be pushing for you tomorrow or not; it depends on the night results. But for today, when one person has the vote and there's nothing for me to do, I just want to make sure everyone is getting looked at fairly, and it seems a little like Lenglon is biased toward you. Then again, maybe that's just me being antsy about the decision because I have no influence.Max: You're right, I am biased in Shake's favor, however, for one, he's also failing to meet the conditions I was expecting of him when I gave him the special read, similar to Egan, and for two, I am attempting to be aware of my own bias and adjust. That's actually a very large part of why I'm actively asking for others to present their cases regarding Shake, because your concern IS well-placed.
Post by: TricMagic on July 17, 2022, 10:10:56 pm
10, I'm tired, and more the fact that the post I quoted wasn't subtle in it's accusation of Shakerag. Despite the fact Shakerag gave reasons, they just ignored them, as usual this game. Lidku keeps doing it.Instead of throwing a tree on top of them like it's actually subtle in the shade it casts and calling it a feather. It's a brush.What does this sentence even mean.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 17, 2022, 10:24:58 pm
I still need to do my post on NJW's arguments with Lenglon, and NJW's 'scumhunting', but Shakerag is the current subject, so I'll start there.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 17, 2022, 10:33:52 pm
Max: You're right, I am biased in Shake's favor, however, for one, he's also failing to meet the conditions I was expecting of him when I gave him the special read, similar to Egan, and for two, I am attempting to be aware of my own bias and adjust. That's actually a very large part of why I'm actively asking for others to present their cases regarding Shake, because your concern IS well-placed.Hm. Thank you for saying that. It makes me feel a little better about this.
10, I'm tired, and more the fact that the post I quoted wasn't subtle in it's accusation of Shakerag. Despite the fact Shakerag gave reasons, they just ignored them, as usual this game. Lidku keeps doing it.Lidku seems to be missing a lot of things and it would be good for all of us to push him over it, yes. That said... I think you would have found it more productive to quote the post where Shakerag said that and say something like "right here, pay attention", instead of making a weird metaphor. :P
I also, honestly, don't really find this as suspicious as you do, because it's so obvious. I feel like, if Lidku were scum with a veteran partner, he'd be getting coached better. You could try to sell me on a Lidku/Knightwing team (although I think Knightwing is town), but you'd also have to convince me that we're looking at the actions of a weak mafia, and I'm not sure I buy that... the crane thing seems to imply prior planning, although I guess it could've been a fluke (since we still don't even know what was up with that).
You could also try to sell me on a team with Lidku and a veteran with poor management skills (I think, of all the players, only Fallacy's management skills I've observed), or one who isn't paying much attention (Shakerag?), or just that he's been let off the hook for pure WIFOM, but you definitely need to be offering a coherent narrative here. At least in my opinion.
Actually, I think that's something we're not doing enough of as a general rule. Everyone seems to have suspicions pointing in a different direction, but I don't really see a lot of clear narratives about who the team is and what happened last night. I'm guilty of this myself, by all means, so I'm going to think on it for a bit. I encourage every other town player to do the same. If your suspicions run into a contradiction - my immediate memory runs back to Jim Groovester's post to Oliverz here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179912.msg8383219#msg8383219) as a example, yes, he was scum, but the point was still valid - then there's something wrong with your suspicions. You have to think them all the way out to find out.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 17, 2022, 10:38:18 pm
Lidku, you don't seem to be paying a lot of attention here. From my perspective, it looks like you are tunnelled right onto TricMagic and letting everything else fall by the wayside, which is not town-positive behavior. That isn't helpful regardless of whether you are town or scum. As such, you definitely need to take my advice from the last post: if you are suspicious of TricMagic, then tell me who his partner is, what happened last night, where the crane came from (it doesn't seem related to Tric's claim, for example) and why...
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 17, 2022, 10:40:32 pm
He does appear to be contributing, just not in a really energetic fashion. But since there's an absence of true scum tells, as far as I've seen? Personally I say we need to put some pressure on him still, but I'm tentatively reading him weak town for now.
But if it's not Shakerag, then who is it? I'll need to take a closer look around and such.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 17, 2022, 10:45:02 pm
Lidku, you don't seem to be paying a lot of attention here. From my perspective, it looks like you are tunnelled right onto TricMagic and letting everything else fall by the wayside, which is not town-positive behavior. That isn't helpful regardless of whether you are town or scum. As such, you definitely need to take my advice from the last post: if you are suspicious of TricMagic, then tell me who his partner is, what happened last night, where the crane came from (it doesn't seem related to Tric's claim, for example) and why...I'll also note that this is similar to my own newbie behavior. Picking a single target, then latching on like a lamprey and refusing to consider anything else? That's classic Fallacy. It's not good but it is understandable.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 17, 2022, 10:55:34 pm
A surprisingly high level of activity. Shakerag has made 104 posts since the start of the game. A lot of them are consecutive and building on the same point, or joke-based, but that's not bad even with that in consideration.
Mildly inquisitive attitude.
And that response is a pretty safe response if -you- were mafia, to be honest. Safe, but not optimal. My vote stays. Town would be less defensive.
A reasonable degree of engagement with other players. Almost every post seems to be a direct interaction. The ones that aren't about getting drunk, at least.
There's a sense of purpose overall. I'd still be willing to consider someone like that scum, aside from the final point.
Shakerag is (apparently) not arguing in bad faith. There's a lack of the manipulations I've seen in NJW's posts. Shakerag is contributing (weakly), but not throwing a wrench into the town's activity. So I'm tentatively willing to say no, let's not vote Shakerag today.
Post by: Lenglon on July 17, 2022, 11:17:57 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 17, 2022, 11:25:31 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on July 18, 2022, 08:28:55 am
Right, here comes the slog and the massive back and forth trying to take each other down. Frankly I'm not the most confident my abilities here, but I'll do my best.I have not been trying to take you down. I didn't want to engage with you at all on this stuff today, I wanted to try and find scum becuase basically all I can do at this point is find an amazing case against scum. I didn't think you were scum at the start of the day. Now I'm not so sure. I'm starting to think you can't be acting in good faith here, saying stuff like "Right, here comes the slog and the massive back and forth trying to take each other down", when that isn't what's been happening.
One thing I want to note straight away is that there's a difference between 'not doing x' and 'opposite of x'.
NJW2000 was not saying 'FoU isn't scumhunting', he was not saying 'FoU is scumhunting'. Refusing to acknowledge positive points is different than asserting their opposite.
In any case I now need to make another mega post with all the replies and such to what's already been said.
Then another one for the NJW-Lenglon Day 1 scuffles.
Then another one for Shakerag.
Long deep sigh. Alright, let's get on with it.
Possibility to consider if I flip today: Lenglon/Fal team, with Fal godfather or Lenglon having an false inspect ability. FoU's desire to get my eliminated and Lenglon's extremely strong interest in the fight today would make sense... me flipping town would then be taken to clear FoU.
So just want to state that Webadict very explicitly stated that the inspect result I had was not reliable and can be changed by powers. Both Lenglon and FoU should be seen as potentially able to manipulate it.
I'm going to put off defending... that seems like a well that won't run dry, so I'm justified taking a break from it. I'm not particularly worried about being eliminated in any case, and my flip may help people with the game. I'm not going to address any more of FoU's insistence that I should have explicitly acknowledged he was scumhunting and being active yesterday before voting him... I've responded to that, and I'm tired of repeating myself. I will look at the other points he raises, but that one I'm done thinking about.
First, I'm going to post the closest I can get to a case after wasting hours of my time with this.
Ok. A Case. Here's why TricMagic is quite possibly scum, based on his attack on me and some other factors.
Spoiler: the case on Tric (click to show/hide)
That's... what I got from rereading the thread. It basically boils down to Tric making a very dubious large post, and choosing his targets in advance today.
Post by: Shakerag on July 18, 2022, 10:23:16 am
Post by: NJW2000 on July 18, 2022, 10:52:09 am
Is it just me or does anyone else think it's odd everyone is talking around me, but not engaging me? Or am I just blind and missing direct questions? I -did- just order new glasses for the first time in years.As I kinda started, or was near the start, of a fairly general interest in eliminating you, I'll take a sec to answer this
I think it's because you haven't said much today? I don't have a question about the alignment-inspecting bodyguard action, and if it's real asking a lot about the mechanics of it might actually be scum-sided... I just think it's pretty suspect that you managed to both confirm and protect the person who happens to have the single vote today.
Shit... I did forget that Lenglon/FoU probably can't be true though, so ignore that in my last post.
Given Shake's inspect-bodyguard... it's quite unlikely. This is a bastard game though, so vOv
I assumed your vote was meant to be signalled as a low-commitment gut read. Do you want people to start taking it very seriously?
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 18, 2022, 12:33:04 pm
Shit... I did forget that Lenglon/FoU probably can't be true though, so ignore that in my last post.Actually... I woke up this morning thinking exactly that it's totally possible. Think about this:
Given Shake's inspect-bodyguard... it's quite unlikely. This is a bastard game though, so vOv
Fallacy claims to be town with an auto that counts him as mafia, and it was proven that he can act through a blockade that blocks only town players.
If he's telling the truth, that demonstrates that this game has abilities that let someone count as the other team for the purpose of other abilities; and it could make sense that, if the town had one, the mafia might as well.
If he's making it up, then it's possible and even likely that he got the idea from a real ability, perhaps one his partner might have.
So Fallacy's claim, to me, makes it feasible that Shakerag's bodyguard claim could both be true, yet not confirm the target.
Needless to say, this is the worst possible scenario for the day, so I hope it's not the case, but I can't see it as ruled out.
Post by: Lenglon on July 18, 2022, 01:02:08 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 18, 2022, 01:11:40 pm
Max: NJW's claimed information gained at day start seemed correct in every way except the number of shots. If NJW had targeted you instead of FoU, potentially with a copy random ability or something similar, would it have come up that way?I don't fully follow the question. Would what have come up?
Post by: Lenglon on July 18, 2022, 01:23:03 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 18, 2022, 01:26:15 pm
Max: I was doing my final re-read and getting ready to vote NJW and realized an oddity in last night's actions. I'm currently mentally in a rapid-pivot and am having some trouble resolving the sequence of events and motivations for them. currently kicking myself for not resolving this in my head fully earlier. I however also now realize that my question to you was nonsense as-phrased.Okay. For the record, if he'd targeted me, he probably would have got no result, since I was hidden.
Post by: TricMagic on July 18, 2022, 01:31:29 pm
Quote
So to conclude, Tric has assembled something that looks like the product of a reread, but in fact he knew he was going to go after me anyway before he did it. He has no coherent new points about me except the claim that I didn't post much. He's created a giant post that suggests a lot of effort and evidence, but in fact does not seem to have properly read the thread. Many of the quotes he has used have very little beneath them, often only narration or repetition of other people's questions.... I really question if I could even fake such a product, since it involves premeditation. But my wall was the result of chain of thought as I reread the thread. Even if it doesn't have content or just retreads points others have made, that's not intentional.
As for narration.. Yeah, I don't think it's on the same level of my Moony-hunt post. All I did was put my thoughts out there.
Post by: Shakerag on July 18, 2022, 01:45:16 pm
Is it just me or does anyone else think it's odd everyone is talking around me, but not engaging me? Or am I just blind and missing direct questions? I -did- just order new glasses for the first time in years.As I kinda started, or was near the start, of a fairly general interest in eliminating you, I'll take a sec to answer this
I think it's because you haven't said much today? I don't have a question about the alignment-inspecting bodyguard action, and if it's real asking a lot about the mechanics of it might actually be scum-sided... I just think it's pretty suspect that you managed to both confirm and protect the person who happens to have the single vote today.
Shit... I did forget that Lenglon/FoU probably can't be true though, so ignore that in my last post.
Given Shake's inspect-bodyguard... it's quite unlikely. This is a bastard game though, so vOv
I assumed your vote was meant to be signalled as a low-commitment gut read. Do you want people to start taking it very seriously?
Well suspect me all you like; I can't do much about coincidences.
And, in so far as my vote is concerned, it's the best thing I got right now.
Post by: Shakerag on July 18, 2022, 01:47:00 pm
So Fallacy's claim, to me, makes it feasible that Shakerag's bodyguard claim could both be true, yet not confirm the target.
Also, to be fair, as I think I pointed out it is possible I got bussed and not made aware of that. All I know is that my action succeeded.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 18, 2022, 01:48:09 pm
Oh yeah, duh. We even have one bus claim and I forgot about that possibility, heh.So Fallacy's claim, to me, makes it feasible that Shakerag's bodyguard claim could both be true, yet not confirm the target.
Also, to be fair, as I think I pointed out it is possible I got bussed and not made aware of that. All I know is that my action succeeded.
Post by: Shakerag on July 18, 2022, 01:48:50 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on July 18, 2022, 01:52:49 pm
Max: I was doing my final re-read and getting ready to vote NJW and realized an oddity in last night's actions. I'm currently mentally in a rapid-pivot and am having some trouble resolving the sequence of events and motivations for them. currently kicking myself for not resolving this in my head fully earlier. I however also now realize that my question to you was nonsense as-phrased.If it helps, the ability used let me copy stuff, and also gave me an ability from my targets target, and so forth.
If I’m about to get elimd, I should make it clear that I did target FoU.
And now I have nothing I can use from it because FoU has mafiakills and Max wasn’t targetable by town so my ability just… stopped. You can check if this would happen with web if you like.
Post by: Lenglon on July 18, 2022, 02:15:24 pm
However, I failed to trust myself last time I was in this situation and ended up being throwing the game because of it, so I'm going to try to trust myself now.
NJW: here's why:
FallacyofUrist - inspected as town + attempting setup to fully confirm as non-godfather + town behavior -> town for today, but of note last time I was in this situation there was a super-towny player that manipulated my choice and was actually scum, and I feel like FoU has attempted to manipulate me today... but he even owned up to it so I really don't know. Lucky for me, this one should be mechanically cleared soon.
Knightwing64 - kingmaker, and everyone else seems to have a town read of them. I don't like how shakey this one feels to me personally and I feel like I'm overlooking something big here, but I'm trusting everyone else's read of Knightwing over my own because I just don't have a good read myself and everyone else's seems to have a consensus.
Lidku - My #1 pick for scum, and who I think performed the mafiakill, but they are needed in order to confirm FoU.
Maximum Spin - Set aside as FoU's problem to determine alignment, and I think they were the target of the mafiakill, and that their ability only notified them of the FIRST mafiakill used on them.
NJW2000 - My #2 pick for scum, and who I'm voting here.
Shakerag - I... wish I had better reasons to think he's town. He feels like Town!Shake to me, and I know that's just not good reasoning, but it's what I've got.
TricMagic - Unreadable in general, but the re-read and investment in looking for scum seems legitimate. But their posts are so difficult to understand that I just can't get a good feel for the thoughts behind them.
I know a reads list isn't a real reason though, so I'll try to do better here:
1) There is no mechanical confirmation of NJW's anything really. mechaically I've come to the conclusion that he does NOT have an action-inspect, he has "create a 1-shot copy of the ability used by the target". If he's town, he used it on FoU to try to alignment-check despite the miller claim. If he's scum, he used it on FoU because millers in general get stronger abilities to compensate for being millers.
2) NJW's scumhunting interactions have felt to me like they didn't have much basis or motivation behind them, and there doesn't seem to be a huge amount of investment in them either. His defense and rebuttal has been quite good, But I still have lingering dissatisfaction with the way our interaction on Day 1 ended. I just don't see there being proper suspicion spread evenly, if that makes sense. What I see instead is hyper-focused suspicion in short spurts. It feels like the way scum artificially force themselves to hunt. The biggest problem to me is still that his Day 1 accusations just were not thought fully through, and he stuck to his guns all the way until the beginning of today. I'm very aware that this is a very emotional and unreliable reason for a hammer, but again, it's what I've got.
I really hate that my reasons look even to myself like really shitty ones, but I'm going to go with what I've got here, and hope that I'm right to have my current suspicions.
PPE: and NJW posted and confirmed that yeah, it was a copy. though it was a far fancier one than I thought it was.
my headspace still says that it's Lidku + (someone that used a very strong abiilty) because it just makes sense to make the weaker ability holder perform the kill, and NJW just listed off their ability as a very strong one. but.... ugh.
gotta commit. going with my first instinct. voting NJW.
Post by: NJW2000 on July 18, 2022, 02:47:39 pm
Post by: webadict on July 18, 2022, 02:50:16 pm
Lenglon, now taken to clucking her orders, points at NJW2000 and orders him to the interrogation. She attempts to follow him in, but is suddenly stopped by Mother Hen, who quickly takes her crown back with indignity.
When Mother Hen returns, covered in stray feathers, she sadly shakes her head.
"You have undertaken many missions, but all of you working together have come to the wrong conclusion. Is it that maybe these traitors are the superior agents, thinning the herd for the better?"
She stares off into the distance, as a second crane snatches Shakerag, sending him to the rafters with Maximum Spin. She shrugs her shoulders and leaves the room, flicking the lights on the way out.
Vote Count
------------------------
NJW2000 - 1 - Lenglon* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8391729#msg8391729),
FallacyofUrist - 0 -
Knightwing64 - 0 -
Lenglon - 0 -
Lidku - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
Shakerag - 0 -
TricMagic - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 0 -
1 to Hammer. Day ends on July 18, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (5 hours and 22 minutes remaining.)
NJW2000 has been executed.
NJW2000 was Saturn’s Hexagon (Town).
Shakerag is no longer targetable by Town Players. (Alongside Maximum Spin.)
It is now Night.
Quote
NJW2000
Role: Saturn’s Hexagon
Alignment: Town
Abilities:
{PT} (Auto) Extraterrestrial North Pole: You have your own Santa here. When you receive an Action, you gain a gift copy of that Action you can give away. You may give a gift copy of an Action to another Player once per Night as a free Action.
Tags: Trigger
{P10} (Used, Night) Eye of the Storm [target]: You summon the power of Saturn's winds. Gain a 1-Shot copy of an Action from the target. Then, gain a 1-Shot copy of an Action from their target(s). Repeat this Action until you hit a Player that has already been hit by this Action or no targets are available.
Tags: Copy
{P3/P7} (1-Shot, Mafiakill) Mug [target]: You mug the target, blocking them from making Actions, and then kill them.
Tags: Kill, Block
Post by: webadict on July 19, 2022, 05:55:16 pm
A few minutes later, as everyone was desperately searching for the light switch, you finally find it. You sigh, relieved that the dark is gone, only to find ribbons of blood and limbs that you can only vaguely identify as Knightwing64.
You pause for a second to consider the possibilities, but the only one you can only remotely grab onto is murder. That Mother Hen has trapped you in here with them is unbelievable.
Who could it be?
Knightwing64 has been killed.
Knightwing64 was God of Mafia/Bay12 (Town).
Vote Count
------------------------
FallacyofUrist - 0 -
Lenglon - 0 -
Lidku - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
Shakerag - 0 -
TricMagic - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 6 - FallacyofUrist, Lenglon, Lidku, Maximum Spin, Shakerag, TricMagic,
4 to Hammer. Day ends on July 21, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (~50 hours remaining).
It is now Day.
Quote
Knightwing64
Role: God of Mafia/Bay12
Alignment: Town
Abilities:
(1-Shot, Day) Sacrifice [target/self]: Mafiakill Actions can only be performed on the target or yourself during the next Night Phase. Protections and Revives fail against the target.
{P6} (Used, Night) The Royal We [target]: The target becomes Ruler during the following Day. Only the Ruler is allowed to vote.
Post by: Lenglon on July 19, 2022, 05:56:22 pm
and for those that want to figure out how reliable the action was, it was an action inspect with P5.
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 05:58:35 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 19, 2022, 06:00:08 pm
I did another thing of benefit to Lenglon last night, because I figured y'all were going to lynch me today. She can verify what it is if she likes.I VERY MUCH want to keep what it is to myself, and plan to take advantage of it immediately. It's a very nice thing.
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 06:00:34 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 19, 2022, 06:01:24 pm
Lidku: I watched you perform the mafiakill last night.Oh boy, here we go.
and for those that want to figure out how reliable the action was, it was an action inspect with P5.
Is this MYLO? I think this is MYLO. Assuming the mafia successfully kill, which isn't guaranteed but not killing isn't guaranteed either, so... let's try and be accurate today, ay?
There goes my theory of the crane thing doubling as an arsonist-style ability.
Was the thing in Shakerag's original role claim at all?I did another thing of benefit to Lenglon last night, because I figured y'all were going to lynch me today. She can verify what it is if she likes.I VERY MUCH want to keep what it is to myself, and plan to take advantage of it immediately. It's a very nice thing.
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 06:04:20 pm
Was the thing in Shakerag's original role claim at all?
Essentially. I might have left out one detail, but the gist is there.
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 06:06:27 pm
Obviously now we'll hear from Lidku, and in the meantime I might as well start studying their posts and how they interacted with everyone.
Post by: Lenglon on July 19, 2022, 06:06:59 pm
Yes, and thinking on it the important part for me to keep to myself is how it combines with my role. So I can claim what it is after all if people care.Was the thing in Shakerag's original role claim at all?I did another thing of benefit to Lenglon last night, because I figured y'all were going to lynch me today. She can verify what it is if she likes.I VERY MUCH want to keep what it is to myself, and plan to take advantage of it immediately. It's a very nice thing.
Shake, the part you didn't claim is a non-factor for me. You picked a thing with extremely good synergy.Was the thing in Shakerag's original role claim at all?
Essentially. I might have left out one detail, but the gist is there.
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 06:07:34 pm
Is this MYLO? I think this is MYLO.
I'm inclined to believe this is MYLO as well.
Post by: Lenglon on July 19, 2022, 06:09:10 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 19, 2022, 06:14:29 pm
I Mugged Maximum Spin as agreed.Are you sure about this?
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 06:15:02 pm
There goes my theory of the crane thing doubling as an arsonist-style ability.
I didn't consider that myself, but what makes you certain it still can't be?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 19, 2022, 06:15:39 pm
oh, and by the by, FoU, the reason I accepted your claim of action-miller on day 1 so quickly was because I had the action-inspect.Oh, I see. Yeah, that makes logical sense.
My paranoia is saying it's a Lenglon Shakerag scumteam and we're fucked.
My logical brain is telling my paranoia to shut up, though.
Yes.I Mugged Maximum Spin as agreed.Are you sure about this?
Though the thing that happened the first time didn't happen the second time. My action still failed and was refunded, though.
Would be unbalanced to both prime and kill in the same Cycle.There goes my theory of the crane thing doubling as an arsonist-style ability.
I didn't consider that myself, but what makes you certain it still can't be?
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 19, 2022, 06:18:35 pm
I did not receive a notification either. It's possible you were roleblocked.Yes.I Mugged Maximum Spin as agreed.Are you sure about this?
Though the thing that happened the first time didn't happen the second time. My action still failed and was refunded, though.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 19, 2022, 06:34:19 pm
I did not receive a notification either. It's possible you were roleblocked.Weird. I guess 'your action failed' due to a roleblock and 'your action failed' due to targeting you would show up the same way?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 19, 2022, 06:37:07 pm
Post by: TricMagic on July 19, 2022, 06:47:25 pm
Time's up Lidku. All that's left is finding your partner.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 19, 2022, 06:49:55 pm
I couldn't possibly say, but it seems like the most likely explanation. You would've gotten a thing again if you'd hit me (I got to keep it instead). BTW, that means I'm not consenting to a third round of the game, since I have an action now I'd like to be able to use. It's even decently useful!I did not receive a notification either. It's possible you were roleblocked.Weird. I guess 'your action failed' due to a roleblock and 'your action failed' due to targeting you would show up the same way?
It also, to be totally fair, means I can't confirm you didn't do the kill or something else. If Lidku did the kill, this isn't a problem, but... you know, I have to say it.
Post by: Lidku on July 19, 2022, 06:51:38 pm
Lidku: I watched you perform the mafiakill last night.
and for those that want to figure out how reliable the action was, it was an action inspect with P5.
This is ridiculous. I used my 1 and only Super Protect on FallacyofUrist like you asked. Now you're turning to accuse me as being Mafia? Most of the people you have been targeting as Mafia, has been proven to be Town.
You're shooting randomly and getting people wrongfully lynched here.
Post by: Lenglon on July 19, 2022, 06:55:21 pm
So are you arguing that I have a false result, or that I'm scum? If the latter, please present your case.Lidku: I watched you perform the mafiakill last night.
and for those that want to figure out how reliable the action was, it was an action inspect with P5.
This is ridiculous. I used my 1 and only Super Protect on FallacyofUrist like you asked. Now you're turning to accuse me as being Mafia? Most of the people you have been targeting as Mafia, has been proven to be Town.
You're shooting randomly and getting people wrongfully lynched here.
Post by: Lidku on July 19, 2022, 06:56:29 pm
But at this point, Lenglon's the one who had the inspect, so Lenglon's the one who can decide if the result is probably right.I have made public every piece of information I have from that inspect. It's a P (-1), inspects target 1, gives the results to target 2, 1-shot. It was used on FoU as target 1, sent results to NJW as target 2. NJW says the result he recieved was that FoU is town. So you are equally as qualified as I am to say if it's a reliable result or not.
Why the sudden change up in claims to your abilities?
Post by: TricMagic on July 19, 2022, 06:58:24 pm
Lidku: I watched you perform the mafiakill last night.
and for those that want to figure out how reliable the action was, it was an action inspect with P5.
This is ridiculous. I used my 1 and only Super Protect on FallacyofUrist like you asked. Now you're turning to accuse me as being Mafia? Most of the people you have been targeting as Mafia, has been proven to be Town.
You're shooting randomly and getting people wrongfully lynched here.
Correction, you would have hit me. Also, that was the wrong move entirely Lidku. Did you really think I'd leave Fal unprotected? Or did you not bother to take into account my own abilities?
Rather, Knightwing dying is probably something I should have foreseen. Got too blinded by the fact I expected someone to target Fal last night. But as far as I know, no-one did.
Lidku, a bit of advice for next time, start up with putting me with Lenglon, would make more sense given Spook is one of my possible abilities.
Anyone have a list of all the claimed actions Night 1?
Ninlidku
Post by: Lenglon on July 19, 2022, 07:00:02 pm
Also, you said here that your Inspect was a 1-Shot and only a Priority -1 (auto) ability:lol what? did you honestly think the only thing in my entire kit was a 1-shot, with no autos or other abilities?But at this point, Lenglon's the one who had the inspect, so Lenglon's the one who can decide if the result is probably right.I have made public every piece of information I have from that inspect. It's a P (-1), inspects target 1, gives the results to target 2, 1-shot. It was used on FoU as target 1, sent results to NJW as target 2. NJW says the result he recieved was that FoU is town. So you are equally as qualified as I am to say if it's a reliable result or not.
Why the sudden change up in claims to your abilities?
partial claims are not fullclaims.
even in the post you're quoting I specify "from that inspect".
Post by: TricMagic on July 19, 2022, 07:05:12 pm
[Redacted]
Lidku and I both claim no actions. Shakerag claims Bodyguard. Knightwing used The Royal We.
Lenglon's recap of Night 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=post;quote=8390726;topic=180072.525;last_msg=8392092)
Redacting info in this post to see if Lidku can present a case arguing Lenglon is Mafia. Or any other combination, remember to include teams.
Post by: Lidku on July 19, 2022, 07:07:24 pm
Lidku: I watched you perform the mafiakill last night.
and for those that want to figure out how reliable the action was, it was an action inspect with P5.
This is ridiculous. I used my 1 and only Super Protect on FallacyofUrist like you asked. Now you're turning to accuse me as being Mafia? Most of the people you have been targeting as Mafia, has been proven to be Town.
You're shooting randomly and getting people wrongfully lynched here.
Correction, you would have hit me. Also, that was the wrong move entirely Lidku. Did you really think I'd leave Fal unprotected? Or did you not bother to take into account my own abilities?
Rather, Knightwing dying is probably something I should have foreseen. Got too blinded by the fact I expected someone to target Fal last night. But as far as I know, no-one did.
I was the one that was the one that was protecting Fal last night. And even if your claim of doing a "bus-like" ability on Fal is true, you would not have been informed of the Super Protect to begin with. You would just have a Protection effect on you like normal without being notified.
This was already something that was discussed between me, Lenglon, and FallacyofUrist. To prove my innocence, they made me use my 1-use Super Protect on Fallacy for the Night. Now all of a sudden I'm the one that did the kill?
Post by: Lidku on July 19, 2022, 07:08:32 pm
Also, you said here that your Inspect was a 1-Shot and only a Priority -1 (auto) ability:lol what? did you honestly think the only thing in my entire kit was a 1-shot, with no autos or other abilities?But at this point, Lenglon's the one who had the inspect, so Lenglon's the one who can decide if the result is probably right.I have made public every piece of information I have from that inspect. It's a P (-1), inspects target 1, gives the results to target 2, 1-shot. It was used on FoU as target 1, sent results to NJW as target 2. NJW says the result he recieved was that FoU is town. So you are equally as qualified as I am to say if it's a reliable result or not.
Why the sudden change up in claims to your abilities?
partial claims are not fullclaims.
even in the post you're quoting I specify "from that inspect".
So you mean to inform that your role supposedly just has multiple versions of Inspect, and no other tag abilities? I find that hard to believe.
Post by: Lidku on July 19, 2022, 07:12:53 pm
Lidku whispered to NJW, who told us Fal was Town.
When did I ever whisper anything to NJW? When, in the time when he was still alive, did NJW ever say that I whispered to him? Why would you make up something so bizarre?
Post by: Lidku on July 19, 2022, 07:19:18 pm
Lidku whispered to NJW, who told us Fal was Town.
When did I ever whisper anything to NJW? When, in the time when he was still alive, did NJW ever say that I whispered to him? Why would you make up something so bizarre?
Wait a minute, this is something Lenglon literally claims to have done:
Quote from: Lenglon
It's a P (-1), inspects target 1, gives the results to target 2, 1-shot. It was used on FoU as target 1, sent results to NJW as target 2. NJW says the result he recieved was that FoU is town. So you are equally as qualified as I am to say if it's a reliable result or not.
So why are you saying I did so, TricMagic?
Post by: Lenglon on July 19, 2022, 07:35:09 pm
Your panic is making you throw accusations out that you haven't thought through. You need to slow down and make fewer, but more solid, arguments.
You are correct that your odds of not being today's lynch are very small, but you actually had a okay shot at it before you lost your cool. You have two possible arguments in this scenario:
1) I am town, and was given a false result. If you go this route, since you didn't claim miller day 1, you should be arguing that a redirect occured. Since scum knew that FoU was going to be performing a mafiakill-esque action, your best bet is to argue that you were bussed with FoU. IF you had been town, your first reaction to Tric claiming to have bussed FoU SHOULD have been to ask who FoU was bussed with.
2) I am mafia, and am framing you. This is a far worse option for you because of Shakerag's N1 action, but you can still try to argue for a Lenglon/Shakerag scumteam. You only need to convince one town player that you are innocent after all, since you get to pick the lynch in the case of a tie. But in this case, you need to build a proper case. You've seen several solid examples this game, go ahead and emulate them.
but in either case, your panic-reaction is actively hurting you. You honestly might want to just walk away and literally sleep on it overnight. Just say that you're overwhelmed, and need time to figure out what's going on, calm down overnight, and come back tomorrow with an apology for losing your cool + a firm case for why I'm scum. In any case you should take your time. panic like this convinces nobody.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 19, 2022, 07:38:44 pm
Correction, you would have hit me.(To be completely fair, he wouldn't be informed of this.)
Still reading the thread, more to come possibly, if I have time.
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 07:42:34 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 19, 2022, 07:56:32 pm
Post by: Lidku on July 19, 2022, 07:58:53 pm
Lidku: Becuase this IS a beginner's, I'm going to go ahead and give you advice real quick: CALM DOWN.
Your panic is making you throw accusations out that you haven't thought through.
I haven't accused anyone of anything, yet. The only people who have so far, is you and TricMagic, with me being the number one target, so to speak. I simply asked questions about the reliably of your supposed Inspection claims, which none of you have answered, only giving a lecture in response. Saying that "I'm panicking" but ignoring my queries, then brush me off to simply "sleep it off," is suspicious.
Lidku: I claimed my protect can only hit aligned players. So are you ready to back up that either: 1) Myself and Leglon are scum, or 2) My protect got redirected?
I'm sorry, but I never addressed you so directly. The only ones I have so far is FallacyofUrist, TricMagic, and Lenglon. My own personal claim for N2 was using my Super Protect on FallacyofUrist. Did you mistake me posting that referencing you at all?
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 08:06:00 pm
I'm sorry, but I never addressed you so directly. The only ones I have so far is FallacyofUrist, TricMagic, and Lenglon. My own personal claim for N2 was using my Super Protect on FallacyofUrist. Did you mistake me posting that referencing you at all?
Not you not answering my question.
I'm kinda sorta thinking a Lidku and Tric scumteam.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 19, 2022, 08:07:07 pm
Still reading the thread, more to come possibly, if I have time.Actually, I don't really have anything else to say now that I've finished. Lidku's looking pretty bad. I guess I just have to figure out who the partner is now.
Hm, let me consider that.
Options:
Lenglon - Almost certainly not. It would have to be some pretty spectacular bussing. Not that I couldn't imagine it, but it's not exactly Occam-approved.
Shakerag - I put him second because at first I thought it was second least likely, but actually I guess it's kind of plausible. It would mean that Shakerag decided to throw Lidku under the bus here, but, I mean, I'd do it in that position. Shakerag seems to be using this mainly as an opportunity to shore up his own town claims (like the Lenglon thing), which does give me the impression that he has the wrong motivations. I also traditionally suspect the second person to join a bandwagon for bussing (while he hasn't voted that I saw, he has expressed a general attitude of agreement), because of a tendency to want to look eager. This is all circumstantial and should not be taken very seriously, but I hope you can all agree that "kind of plausible" is a reasonable description.
Me - Least likely to me, of course, but I'll fairly put myself in the middle. I guess I can't come up with any really solid reason to argue against it, except that I think I was the first kill target, and otherwise it's hard to explain the lack of kill.
Fallacy - Not unreasonable. Fallacy reads town to me, but who can say? I feel like Fallacy would do a better job managing Lidku in the scumchat, but I don't really know for sure how good he is at it, or how intransigent Lidku may be. The failure of the Mug Protocol is concerning. Still, I just can't make myself suspect Fallacy first here when I townread him since the beginning.
Tric - I think this is fairly likely. First of all, I don't think Tric would be able to guide Lidku to better reactions in the scumchat at all. Second, they've been distancing from each other the whole game, but in a way that never quite comes to building a meaningful case or seriously risking a lynch. Even now, Tric is acting in a way that seems to be anti-Lidku, while kind of throwing mild amounts of dirt around at other people, as if he's hoping to look like he was on-side if Lidku does get lynched, but still wants a chance at getting someone else lynched. Tric also bluetexted Lidku, which fits in with what I said in Shakerag's line about wanting to look willing to lynch.
Max: quick question, if you had been hit by two mafiakills in the same night, would you have been notified of both of them?Very unlikely. In fact, it being day 3 and probably MYLO, I'll go ahead and explain how my role actually works: It's the other half of Fallacy's action that caused me to hear about it. I automatically hide if I don't act, and, if blocked by an ability, learn who and what was responsible. If I hide on my own - which so far has been my only option, because I didn't come with any powers - then I give myself an invention; otherwise the person who blocked me gets it. Since Fallacy's "kill" was a block, it triggered my ability and he stole the invention (a roleblock). A normal kill would still not affect me when hiding, but I wouldn't hear of it.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 19, 2022, 08:07:54 pm
while he hasn't voted that I sawWhoops, this stopped being true while I was answering Lenglon and I forgot to change it.
All other points still seem fine to me though.
Post by: Lenglon on July 19, 2022, 08:13:38 pm
So you mean to inform that your role supposedly just has multiple versions of Inspect, and no other tag abilities? I find that hard to believe.This is rolefishing. I have not fullclaimed and have in fact specifically said today that I don't plan on claiming my abilities when I was commenting on what Shakerag did last night. What I have claimed is each individual action I've done after I've already done them.
Lidku, you just said yourself that the target of your protect wasn't going to be notified of your action. You should have known I was going to action inspect you the moment that I agreed to the plan, because that is the only way that plan could have actually cleared you.-snip-I was the one that was the one that was protecting Fal last night. And even if your claim of doing a "bus-like" ability on Fal is true, you would not have been informed of the Super Protect to begin with. You would just have a Protection effect on you like normal without being notified.
This was already something that was discussed between me, Lenglon, and FallacyofUrist. To prove my innocence, they made me use my 1-use Super Protect on Fallacy for the Night. Now all of a sudden I'm the one that did the kill?
Post by: TricMagic on July 19, 2022, 08:20:40 pm
... Opps. Leglon whispered, not Lidku. Why are you being so aggressive over that though? Like you've been all game.Lidku whispered to NJW, who told us Fal was Town.
When did I ever whisper anything to NJW? When, in the time when he was still alive, did NJW ever say that I whispered to him? Why would you make up something so bizarre?
Post by: Lidku on July 19, 2022, 08:23:05 pm
Still reading the thread, more to come possibly, if I have time.Tric - I think this is fairly likely. First of all, I don't think Tric would be able to guide Lidku to better reactions in the scumchat at all. Second, they've been distancing from each other the whole game, but in a way that never quite comes to building a meaningful case or seriously risking a lynch. Even now, Tric is acting in a way that seems to be anti-Lidku, while kind of throwing mild amounts of dirt around at other people, as if he's hoping to look like he was on-side if Lidku does get lynched, but still wants a chance at getting someone else lynched. Tric also bluetexted Lidku, which fits in with what I said in Shakerag's line about wanting to look willing to lynch.
I find this read very strange, considering since early-middle of the game, me and TricMagic have been at each other's throats the entire game. If you've claimed to have read my posts over again, Maximum Spin, why are you saying something opposite of what really happened previously?
Two times I've voted TricMagic as scum before in two separate days, with a middling argument on D2 against him to begin with. Mind explaining what you mean by this, Maximum Spin?
Lidku, you just said yourself that the target of your protect wasn't going to be notified of your action. You should have known I was going to action inspect you the moment that I agreed to the plan, because that is the only way that plan could have actually cleared you.
Well guess what, I didn't "know" because you never informed me of that, intentionally. Irregardless, I STLL would have used my Super Protect N2 on Fallacy as the plan specified. It's your word against mine and your Inspection claim would be MORE credible if you would have told Town that, Lenglon.
I'm sorry, but I never addressed you so directly. The only ones I have so far is FallacyofUrist, TricMagic, and Lenglon. My own personal claim for N2 was using my Super Protect on FallacyofUrist. Did you mistake me posting that referencing you at all?Not you not answering my question.
My apologizes, but can you be clear of what you're asking? Because I didn't understand the context of your question, because I never addressed you at all personally and I'm mostly worried about my own actions last night, and what I'm being accused of.
Post by: Lidku on July 19, 2022, 08:24:16 pm
... Opps. Leglon whispered, not Lidku. Why are you being so aggressive over that though? Like you've been all game.Lidku whispered to NJW, who told us Fal was Town.
When did I ever whisper anything to NJW? When, in the time when he was still alive, did NJW ever say that I whispered to him? Why would you make up something so bizarre?
This is a strange turnaround. Earlier before, you were one of the ones criticizing me over my passivity. Now you're framing I've been aggression all game? Interesting.
Post by: Lidku on July 19, 2022, 08:27:23 pm
Post by: TricMagic on July 19, 2022, 08:30:05 pm
I'd suggest backing that up Shakerag, cause if Lidku is town you're getting lynched tomorrow after that claim. Bodyguard didn't inform N1, even if you gave something to Lenglon today to get in her graces.I'm sorry, but I never addressed you so directly. The only ones I have so far is FallacyofUrist, TricMagic, and Lenglon. My own personal claim for N2 was using my Super Protect on FallacyofUrist. Did you mistake me posting that referencing you at all?
Not you not answering my question.
I'm kinda sorta thinking a Lidku and Tric scumteam.
Not counting the fact lynching me tomorrow is a loss for mafia if Lidku is mafia, unless you manage to kill someone tonight. Granted, it is ALSO a loss for town if I'm mafia and Lidku is town here. You're going to need some strong evidence if you wish to pair me with anyone.
Lenglon[/color].]=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2naim9F4010I think the scumteam might be Maximum Spin and Lenglon.Wrong. Try again Lidku.
(http://=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2naim9F4010I think the scumteam might be Maximum Spin and [color=red)
Post by: Lenglon on July 19, 2022, 08:30:36 pm
I think the scumteam might be Maximum Spin and Lenglon....
I'm sorry what?
As a reminder, FoU roleblocked Max N1, and NJW confirmed my claimed N1 action. So both of our actions are accounted for.
And Shakerag's N1 action confirms that I'm the same alignment he is.
So is Shakerag town or scum?
Again, the smart move for you Lidku is to calm down and think things through. Panic is not helping you.
Post by: TricMagic on July 19, 2022, 08:31:08 pm
Wrong. (https://youtu.be/2naim9F4010) Try again Lidku. (Like me.)
Post by: TricMagic on July 19, 2022, 08:32:06 pm
... Yeah, I've accused you of Misconstruction. It's a type of aggression, a very scum type.... Opps. Leglon whispered, not Lidku. Why are you being so aggressive over that though? Like you've been all game.Lidku whispered to NJW, who told us Fal was Town.
When did I ever whisper anything to NJW? When, in the time when he was still alive, did NJW ever say that I whispered to him? Why would you make up something so bizarre?
This is a strange turnaround. Earlier before, you were one of the ones criticizing me over my passivity. Now you're framing I've been aggression all game? Interesting.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 19, 2022, 08:32:33 pm
If you've claimed to have read my posts over again,Well, just to be clear, I'm not claiming that. I've read through one time, in the process of playing the game, that's all. But anyway,
Two times I've voted TricMagic as scum before in two separate days, with a middling argument on D2 against him to begin with. Mind explaining what you mean by this, Maximum Spin?sure, voting someone for a while with no intention of allowing it to reach possible lynch levels is a common distancing tactic that even noobs frequently use. Especially when one of those days, you didn't even have a vote, so your vote was meaningless without some kind of argument to convince Lenglon. It's impossible to prove now whether you meant it or not. That's all in the past.
Also, why do you keep repeating my name? That's just weird. I'm not Bloody Mary.
I think the scumteam might be Maximum Spin and Lenglon.I feel like this is really hard to justify with D1, let alone everything that happened afterward, but you do you.
Not counting the fact lynching me tomorrow is a loss for mafiaUhhh, is this a typo or a really weird slip?
Post by: Lenglon on July 19, 2022, 08:38:31 pm
Lidku, there were two scum alive at the time. If I had said I was going to inspect your action your scumbuddy would have done the kill. I would only claim the action if I wanted to cause the scum to have to deal with WIFOM, and I generally consider that a far weaker play than just not saying things because it's easy to overlook stuff that people just plain don't directly claim. Actually, I would also have claimed the inspect if I was actually going to vigi-shoot you instead, but that's minor.Lidku, you just said yourself that the target of your protect wasn't going to be notified of your action. You should have known I was going to action inspect you the moment that I agreed to the plan, because that is the only way that plan could have actually cleared you.Well guess what, I didn't "know" because you never informed me of that, intentionally. Irregardless, I STLL would have used my Super Protect N2 on Fallacy as the plan specified. It's your word against mine and your Inspection claim would be MORE credible if you would have told Town that, Lenglon.
Post by: TricMagic on July 19, 2022, 08:39:07 pm
Tric - I think this is fairly likely. First of all, I don't think Tric would be able to guide Lidku to better reactions in the scumchat at all. Second, they've been distancing from each other the whole game, but in a way that never quite comes to building a meaningful case or seriously risking a lynch. Even now, Tric is acting in a way that seems to be anti-Lidku, while kind of throwing mild amounts of dirt around at other people, as if he's hoping to look like he was on-side if Lidku does get lynched, but still wants a chance at getting someone else lynched. Tric also bluetexted Lidku, which fits in with what I said in Shakerag's line about wanting to look willing to lynch.I do not want the day to end in 6 hours. I do want to work out who the partner is and give Lidku at least a chance to make a case. There is one I think is a possibility. If Lidku doesn't bring it up...
Not counting the fact lynching me tomorrow is a loss for mafiaUhhh, is this a typo or a really weird slip?
If the mafia rn is Lidku, then if I do get lynched.. We're at 2 the next day, and my dead-vote breaks ties.
... Granted, I'm assuming Mafia doesn't auto-win in that scenario. And more likely they just don't kill that night. I spent D1 picking up that ability just so I could mess with the lynch at end game. If I'm mafia, you had better be damned sure Lidku is Mafia.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 19, 2022, 08:43:26 pm
Oh, okay, I see what you mean. Tiny bit more towncred for you.Not counting the fact lynching me tomorrow is a loss for mafiaUhhh, is this a typo or a really weird slip?
If the mafia rn is Lidku, then if I do get lynched.. We're at 2 the next day, and my dead-vote breaks ties.
... Granted, I'm assuming Mafia doesn't auto-win in that scenario. And more likely they just don't kill that night. I spent D1 picking up that ability just so I could mess with the lynch at end game. If I'm mafia, you had better be damned sure Lidku is Mafia.
Post by: Lidku on July 19, 2022, 08:45:50 pm
I think the scumteam might be Maximum Spin and Lenglon....
And Shakerag's N1 action confirms that I'm the same alignment he is.
So is Shakerag town or scum?
Lidku: I claimed my protect can only hit aligned players. So are you ready to back up that either: 1) Myself and Leglon are scum, or 2) My protect got redirected?
I re-read both of these posts, and now I understand what Shakerag is trying to say. Admittedly, I got confused about his question, because he only said "aligned" and nothing else with no other identifying modifier. If he would have said "my protect can only hit Town algined players," than I could have answered promptly before.
For the entire game, it seems as if Shakerag, out of everyone, has been seemingly and on the low, has been at the beck-and-call of Lenglon; always softly agreeing with their reads or backing them up, even on D1 (before N1 claims could come into effect). That N1 claim of Shakerag "protecting" Lenglon, and that his Protection only is "alignment"-based, could be a cover to confirm Lenglon as Town to the Town.
My strongest suspicious of Mafia right now is a mix of Lenglon, Maximum Spin, and Shakerag. But the strongest team on my mind is Lenglon and Shakerag now.
Even FallacyofUrist has a small subconscious inkling of this:
My paranoia is saying it's a Lenglon Shakerag scumteam and we're fucked.
Post by: TricMagic on July 19, 2022, 08:48:43 pm
I think the scumteam might be Maximum Spin and Lenglon....
And Shakerag's N1 action confirms that I'm the same alignment he is.
So is Shakerag town or scum?Lidku: I claimed my protect can only hit aligned players. So are you ready to back up that either: 1) Myself and Leglon are scum, or 2) My protect got redirected?
I re-read both of these posts, and now I understand what Shakerag is trying to say. Admittedly, I got confused about his question, because he only said "aligned" and nothing else with no other identifying modifier. If he would have said "my protect can only hit Town algined players," than I could have answered promptly before.
For the entire game, it seems as if Shakerag, out of everyone, has been seemingly and on the low, has been at the beck-and-call of Lenglon; always softly agreeing with their reads or backing them up, even on D1 (before N1 claims could come into effect). That N1 claim of Shakerag "protecting" Lenglon, and that his Protection only is "alignment"-based, could be a cover to confirm Lenglon as Town to the Town.
My strongest suspicious of Mafia right now is a mix of Lenglon, Maximum Spin, and Shakerag. But the strongest team on my mind is Lenglon and Shakerag now.
Even FallacyofUrist has a small subconscious inkling of this:My paranoia is saying it's a Lenglon Shakerag scumteam and we're fucked.
... Welp.
Wrong. (https://youtu.be/2naim9F4010) Try again Lidku.
Post by: Lidku on July 19, 2022, 08:50:27 pm
Post by: Mamobo on July 19, 2022, 08:50:36 pm
------------------------
Lidku - 2 - Lenglon* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392064#msg8392064), Shakerag* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392119#msg8392119),
Lenglon - 1 - Lidku* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392128#msg8392128),
FallacyofUrist - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
Shakerag - 0 -
TricMagic - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 3 - FallacyofUrist, Maximum Spin, TricMagic,
4 to Hammer. Day ends on July 21, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (~47 hours remaining).
Post by: TricMagic on July 19, 2022, 08:53:39 pm
Stop being ghetto, TricMagic ???No clue what that means, but I'll give you one more shot. As town, you're in a unique position to crack things. As mafia, well. It's something you could come up with if the circumstances are right.
Also, that votecount is good reason not to place a vote. A cornered scum could just hammer and end the day immediately.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 19, 2022, 08:58:01 pm
Let me add that I agree with this position and, while I think you are capable of making it as mafia, it does also improve my outlook. Actually, although I'm not going to give up a very likely lynch at probably MYLO, I'd be happier lynching the partner first if we can figure it out, since Lidku would still be there next turn and will, I strongly suspect, be a lot less dangerous without a more experienced partner. (And since we're all more experienced, that goes without saying.) No matter what, more time to get more information is best; and if we both agree to hold back from voting for the time being, then we can be certain there won't be a hammer. It does also make me think better of you since bussing scum are usually eager to be seen voting, like I said.Tric - I think this is fairly likely. First of all, I don't think Tric would be able to guide Lidku to better reactions in the scumchat at all. Second, they've been distancing from each other the whole game, but in a way that never quite comes to building a meaningful case or seriously risking a lynch. Even now, Tric is acting in a way that seems to be anti-Lidku, while kind of throwing mild amounts of dirt around at other people, as if he's hoping to look like he was on-side if Lidku does get lynched, but still wants a chance at getting someone else lynched. Tric also bluetexted Lidku, which fits in with what I said in Shakerag's line about wanting to look willing to lynch.I do not want the day to end in 6 hours. I do want to work out who the partner is and give Lidku at least a chance to make a case. There is one I think is a possibility. If Lidku doesn't bring it up...
Incidentally, I have an alternative possibility in mind too, and I'm curious whether it's the same one. Care to drop any hints?
Post by: TricMagic on July 19, 2022, 09:01:44 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 09:03:05 pm
My apologizes, but can you be clear of what you're asking? Because I didn't understand the context of your question, because I never addressed you at all personally and I'm mostly worried about my own actions last night, and what I'm being accused of.
Literrally what I asked you before. Fuck lemme find it.
Lidku: I claimed my protect can only hit aligned players. So are you ready to back up that either: 1) Myself and Leglon are scum, or 2) My protect got redirected?
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 09:05:10 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 19, 2022, 09:06:04 pm
Yeha, lidku with the OMGUS and Tric chainsawing for Lidku. I'm comfortable with what I said already.I don't see Tric chainsawing.
Post by: Lidku on July 19, 2022, 09:06:45 pm
Not at the moment. Want Lidku to get one more shot at it before I list my own.
I already said who I've suspected as Mafia. I don't see how being some appointed "arbiter" can change what I think so far. I think I'd be best if we hear about your list, TricMagic.
My apologizes, but can you be clear of what you're asking? Because I didn't understand the context of your question, because I never addressed you at all personally and I'm mostly worried about my own actions last night, and what I'm being accused of.
Literrally what I asked you before. Fuck lemme find it.Lidku: I claimed my protect can only hit aligned players. So are you ready to back up that either: 1) Myself and Leglon are scum, or 2) My protect got redirected?
Yes, and I give a reply after I fully understood what you were trying to say.
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 09:07:27 pm
My strongest suspicious of Mafia right now is a mix of Lenglon, Maximum Spin, and Shakerag. But the strongest team on my mind is Lenglon and Shakerag now.
Panic more scum. Do enlighten everyone as to why myself and Lenglon are the scummiest.
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 09:09:22 pm
Yeha, lidku with the OMGUS and Tric chainsawing for Lidku. I'm comfortable with what I said already.I don't see Tric chainsawing.
I hop on the Lidku train and suddenly Tric is all up in my shit?
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 19, 2022, 09:11:16 pm
To be fair, it was me and Lenglon until he was reminded that you're confirming Lenglon. So I don't think it's long on reasoning, if you follow my drift. :PMy strongest suspicious of Mafia right now is a mix of Lenglon, Maximum Spin, and Shakerag. But the strongest team on my mind is Lenglon and Shakerag now.
Panic more scum. Do enlighten everyone as to why myself and Lenglon are the scummiest.
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 09:12:42 pm
To be fair, it was me and Lenglon until he was reminded that you're confirming Lenglon. So I don't think it's long on reasoning, if you follow my drift. :PMy strongest suspicious of Mafia right now is a mix of Lenglon, Maximum Spin, and Shakerag. But the strongest team on my mind is Lenglon and Shakerag now.
Panic more scum. Do enlighten everyone as to why myself and Lenglon are the scummiest.
That said, Tric and Lidku look like scum playing footsies. Going through the motions but not comitting.
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 09:14:33 pm
Yes, and I give a reply after I fully understood what you were trying to say.
Pretend I'm really stupid. Do you think Me and Lenglon are scum or I got misdirected? Give a clear answer.
Post by: Lidku on July 19, 2022, 09:18:54 pm
I think the scumteam might be Maximum Spin and Lenglon....
And Shakerag's N1 action confirms that I'm the same alignment he is.
So is Shakerag town or scum?Lidku: I claimed my protect can only hit aligned players. So are you ready to back up that either: 1) Myself and Leglon are scum, or 2) My protect got redirected?
I re-read both of these posts, and now I understand what Shakerag is trying to say. Admittedly, I got confused about his question, because he only said "aligned" and nothing else with no other identifying modifier. If he would have said "my protect can only hit Town algined players," than I could have answered promptly before.
For the entire game, it seems as if Shakerag, out of everyone, has been seemingly and on the low, has been at the beck-and-call of Lenglon; always softly agreeing with their reads or backing them up, even on D1 (before N1 claims could come into effect). That N1 claim of Shakerag "protecting" Lenglon, and that his Protection only is "alignment"-based, could be a cover-plot to confirm Lenglon as Town to the Town.
My strongest suspicion of Mafia right now is a mix of Lenglon, Maximum Spin, and Shakerag. But the strongest team on my mind is Lenglon and Shakerag at the moment.
Even FallacyofUrist has a small subconscious inkling of this:My paranoia is saying it's a Lenglon Shakerag scumteam and we're fucked.
Post by: Lidku on July 19, 2022, 09:21:23 pm
Yeha, lidku with the OMGUS and Tric chainsawing for Lidku. I'm comfortable with what I said already.I don't see Tric chainsawing.
I hop on the Lidku train and suddenly Tric is all up in my shit?
He only did so because you bizarre claimed me and him being on a team, when the entire game we've been at odds with each other.
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 09:22:32 pm
I think you missed my post, but I gave an answer to this already:I think the scumteam might be Maximum Spin and Lenglon....
And Shakerag's N1 action confirms that I'm the same alignment he is.
So is Shakerag town or scum?Lidku: I claimed my protect can only hit aligned players. So are you ready to back up that either: 1) Myself and Leglon are scum, or 2) My protect got redirected?
I re-read both of these posts, and now I understand what Shakerag is trying to say. Admittedly, I got confused about his question, because he only said "aligned" and nothing else with no other identifying modifier. If he would have said "my protect can only hit Town algined players," than I could have answered promptly before.
For the entire game, it seems as if Shakerag, out of everyone, has been seemingly and on the low, has been at the beck-and-call of Lenglon; always softly agreeing with their reads or backing them up, even on D1 (before N1 claims could come into effect). That N1 claim of Shakerag "protecting" Lenglon, and that his Protection only is "alignment"-based, could be a cover-plot to confirm Lenglon as Town to the Town.
My strongest suspicion of Mafia right now is a mix of Lenglon, Maximum Spin, and Shakerag. But the strongest team on my mind is Lenglon and Shakerag at the moment.
Even FallacyofUrist has a small subconscious inkling of this:My paranoia is saying it's a Lenglon Shakerag scumteam and we're fucked.
So you're assuming scum!Shakerag has literally fullclaimed and said, twice now, that I'm giving positive actions to Leglon?
Question: Do you think I'm actually being -that- bold-faced this game then? That I, as scum, would claim two days in a row that I'm giving positive actions to my "scummate"?
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 09:24:29 pm
Yeha, lidku with the OMGUS and Tric chainsawing for Lidku. I'm comfortable with what I said already.I don't see Tric chainsawing.
I hop on the Lidku train and suddenly Tric is all up in my shit?
He only did so because you bizarre claimed me and him being on a team, when the entire game we've been at odds with each other.
Nothingburder. Standard scum strat is to aggro each other at least a bit.
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 09:29:15 pm
Post by: Lidku on July 19, 2022, 09:34:25 pm
So you're assuming scum!Shakerag has literally fullclaimed and said, twice now, that I'm giving positive actions to Leglon?
Question: Do you think I'm actually being -that- bold-faced this game then? That I, as scum, would claim two days in a row that I'm giving positive actions to my "scummate"?
Yes, I very much believe so, since almost everyone has seemingly eased Lenglon into their "Town" read. Nobody has strongly questioned them at all the entire game, which has allowed them to skirt-by for this long. Giving your teammate additive cover for the deception would be a boon for your team (and is, if I'm correct about you and Lenglon being Mafia together).
The acting "aggressive" bit was a rouse the whole time, to gain the unnecessitated trust of Town (and also, you were one of the first one's to agree with this behavior from Lenglon). This was especially suspect when you and Lenglon pivoted interest to get NJW lynched, even though he read very much Town or neutral by many others at the time before.
Lidku: Additionally, do you think scum!Shakerag and scum!Lenglon would straight up both vote you early on in the day? That's an awful bold move.
Easy. Lenglon says a deception about my N2 action (which was me using my Super Protect on Fallacy). Either one of you did the kill. Then soon after as the Day opens, you both eventually blindside me with votes to gain some sort of reaction (which admittedly, you have, to an extent). All of which can be easily coordinated from a Mafia backchannel, which both of you are likely on.
Post by: TricMagic on July 19, 2022, 09:36:15 pm
Lidku, in regards to your latest post. You seem to be making a logical Fallacy.
Post by: Lidku on July 19, 2022, 09:39:08 pm
Nothingburder. Standard scum strat is to aggro each other at least a bit.
Also, right after Lenglon, who was the first to vote for me, was TricMagic.
You saying that I could be on a "team" with him is even more shaky and suspicious, considering our behaviors to one another. I think you're saying to set me up to be the Lynch, then down the line of D4, get TricMagic next.
Me and TricMagic have been at odds with each other the whole game. I suspect him as Mafia for both days 1 and 2, but after your increasingly strange behavior, I think you and Lenglon are definitely the Mafia team now.
Post by: Lenglon on July 19, 2022, 09:39:23 pm
Having said that, the oddity last night of your interaction only has three possibilities:
A) FoU did not use Mug on you last night, so FoU is scum.
B) You are lying and Mug DID block you last night, and you are lying in order to avoid FoU becoming confirmed town because you are the last scum.
C) You are both telling the truth and a third party roleblocked FoU, and this third party is the final scum.
In the case of option C, we need to see who has un-accounted-for actions. My action is clearly accounted for, and I confirm that Shakerag's is, this means that in case C the only possibility is TricMagic.
As a result I believe we can fullclear both myself and Shake for mechanics reasons, pending Lidku flipping scum. Is this reasonable to you?
Post by: Lidku on July 19, 2022, 09:39:50 pm
Lidku, in regards to your latest post. You seem to be making a logical Fallacy.
Can you please elaborate further?
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 09:44:16 pm
... You're being very confident for someone in roleblock range Shakerag. That said.. Do you really not have any other options for scumteams Lidku?
Well, to run through the options:
I'm town.
I trust Lenglon is town (and if not then she fucking deserves to win)
Lidku is almost certainly scum
I think Lenglon is thinking FoU is town, so I believe her
Max got crained, so probably town?
Process of elimination leaves Tric.
Without hard inspects, that's what I'm working with.
If I had to pick a second scum that isn't Tric, I'd likely go with FoU then.
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 09:47:20 pm
... You're being very confident for someone in roleblock range Shakerag. That said.. Do you really not have any other options for scumteams Lidku?
Furthermore, my actions are pretty shit, so absolutely feel free to roleblock me then.
Post by: Lidku on July 19, 2022, 09:47:57 pm
Process of elimination leaves Tric.
Without hard inspects, that's what I'm working with.
This is extremely shaky reasoning with no arguments to back it up, at all. You just think TricMagic is Mafia just from sheer "process of elimination"? This doesn't look very good, Shakerag.
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 09:48:35 pm
Process of elimination leaves Tric.
Without hard inspects, that's what I'm working with.
This is extremely shaky reasoning with no arguments to back it up, at all. You just think TricMagic is Mafia just from sheer "process of elimination"? This doesn't look very good, Shakerag.
Cool, do better then.
Post by: TricMagic on July 19, 2022, 09:48:59 pm
K. So Night 1. Fal targeted Max, Max blocked and learned Fal's action. Lenglon whispered to NJW, who told us Fal was Town.Here's the secret Lidku. Fal was confirmed by NJW through Lenglon's whisper. No action happened Night 2 however. The only two known who could create this result are myself, and Fallacy. While others could have a hidden ability and are lying, it's contingent on them blocking Fal from confirming the result, and I as town would have diverted it. Unless they themselves attempted to roleblock me silently.
[Fal is confirmed to have used a Kill action Night 1, after the Crane had removed their target. However Night 2 there was no action on MaxSpin, but there are no other players to block them silently known.]
Lidku and I both claim no actions. Shakerag claims Bodyguard. Knightwing used The Royal We.
Lenglon's recap of Night 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=post;quote=8390726;topic=180072.525;last_msg=8392092)
Redacting info in this post to see if Lidku can present a case arguing Lenglon is Mafia. Or any other combination, remember to include teams.
You assume them voting you is the result of a mafia backchannel to get a reaction. They don't need to get a reaction, Lenglon has enough town-cred to get you lynched. Them both voting you is not a sign of them being the scumteam together.Lidku, in regards to your latest post. You seem to be making a logical Fallacy.
Can you please elaborate further?
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 09:56:51 pm
FoU:
and Max: How likely do you both think that Lenglon and myself are the scumteam after all this?
Post by: Lenglon on July 19, 2022, 09:59:31 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 10:00:40 pm
You assume them voting you is the result of a mafia backchannel to get a reaction. They don't need to get a reaction, Lenglon has enough town-cred to get you lynched. Them both voting you is not a sign of them being the scumteam together.
So, can I assume from this that you think I'm scum who is buttering up Lenglon by using my abilities on her?
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 10:02:12 pm
Post by: TricMagic on July 19, 2022, 10:04:38 pm
Lenglon tracked you, she says you performed the kill.
Shakerag gifted Lenglon something.
Max did nothing/Fal Mugged Max
Lidku performed a Super-Protect on Fal.
TricMagic Bussed Fal and Themselves.
Knightwing did Nothing.
Yesterday.
Fal Mugged Max/Max did nothing
Lenglon Whispered to NJW/NJW actioned Fal
Shakerag Bodyguarded Lendlon
Knightwing Crowned Lenglon
TricMagic did nothing. Lidku did nothing.
Note, N1 there was no Mafiakill. Or was there?
N2, there was no Mugging, but there was a Mafiakill.
Mechanically, that means Fal is likely Mafia, right?
Fal killed Knightwing= Lenglon frames Lidku? OR Max frames Lidku?
This is one scenario with two outcomes. Another is thus,
Lidku killed Knightwing = Fal did nothing? *{1 Faction Kill} OR Max did ?
... It's late.. Hmm. Fal did not receive anything, and Max did not receive a notification. So Max?=Unaffected. Max and Fal, by the setup they performed, are the only two who could be a possible solution Lidku. But you completely dismissed Fal as an option. Why is that?
Post by: Lidku on July 19, 2022, 10:09:14 pm
K. So Night 1. Fal targeted Max, Max blocked and learned Fal's action. Lenglon whispered to NJW, who told us Fal was Town.Here's the secret Lidku. Fal was confirmed by NJW through Lenglon's whisper. No action happened Night 2 however. The only two known who could create this result are myself, and Fallacy. While others could have a hidden ability and are lying, it's contingent on them blocking Fal from confirming the result, and I as town would have diverted it. Unless they themselves attempted to roleblock me silently.
[Fal is confirmed to have used a Kill action Night 1, after the Crane had removed their target. However Night 2 there was no action on MaxSpin, but there are no other players to block them silently known.]
Lidku and I both claim no actions. Shakerag claims Bodyguard. Knightwing used The Royal We.
Lenglon's recap of Night 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=post;quote=8390726;topic=180072.525;last_msg=8392092)
Redacting info in this post to see if Lidku can present a case arguing Lenglon is Mafia. Or any other combination, remember to include teams.Lidku, in regards to your latest post. You seem to be making a logical Fallacy.
Your original "you seem to be making a logical fallacy" (and the post I've currently quoted, which is an extension from when I asked you to elaborate your meaning of it) post, you were responding to this post below:So you're assuming scum!Shakerag has literally fullclaimed and said, twice now, that I'm giving positive actions to Leglon?
Question: Do you think I'm actually being -that- bold-faced this game then? That I, as scum, would claim two days in a row that I'm giving positive actions to my "scummate"?
Yes, I very much believe so, since almost everyone has seemingly eased Lenglon into their "Town" read. Nobody has strongly questioned them at all the entire game, which has allowed them to skirt-by for this long. Giving your teammate additive cover for the deception would be a boon for your team (and is, if I'm correct about you and Lenglon being Mafia together).
The acting "aggressive" bit was a rouse the whole time, to gain the unnecessitated trust of Town (and also, you were one of the first one's to agree with this behavior from Lenglon). This was especially suspect when you and Lenglon pivoted interest to get NJW lynched, even though he read very much Town or neutral by many others at the time before.Lidku: Additionally, do you think scum!Shakerag and scum!Lenglon would straight up both vote you early on in the day? That's an awful bold move.
Easy. Lenglon says a deception about my N2 action (which was me using my Super Protect on Fallacy). Either one of you did the kill. Then soon after as the Day opens, you both eventually blindside me with votes to gain some sort of reaction (which admittedly, you have, to an extent). All of which can be easily coordinated from a Mafia backchannel, which both of you are likely on.
My "latest" post was me discussing my N2 action and discussing my theory on Lenglon-Shakerag. The actions you're talking about, of when Fallacy was confirmed Town by NJW, was all on N1. I fail to see what relevance you tried to bring up with your post, and I also fail to see why are you claiming no action was done on N2?
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 19, 2022, 10:12:02 pm
Max I'm willing to take you up on looking for Lidku's partner in discussion only for today. I am not willing to give up a lynch on confirmed scum in order to take a blind shot at maybe-scum.Right, I agree with this. Personally, I'd take the shot if I felt it was really really obvious and eat the blame for the loss if it came down to it, but I don't really think it's getting to that point today anyway. Certainly the Tric Interaction doesn't rise to that level even though I find it suspicious.
Quote
Having said that, the oddity last night of your interaction only has three possibilities:I won't say fullclear, as I've seen web give scum multiple-acting for exactly this reason (web hates mechanical clearing). But yeah, it's reasonable, and I have no intention of ever voting you if Lidku is indeed mafia, nor Shakerag unless something really convinces me that's what happened. Which isn't likely given my current suspicions.
A) FoU did not use Mug on you last night, so FoU is scum.
B) You are lying and Mug DID block you last night, and you are lying in order to avoid FoU becoming confirmed town because you are the last scum.
C) You are both telling the truth and a third party roleblocked FoU, and this third party is the final scum.
In the case of option C, we need to see who has un-accounted-for actions. My action is clearly accounted for, and I confirm that Shakerag's is, this means that in case C the only possibility is TricMagic.
As a result I believe we can fullclear both myself and Shake for mechanics reasons, pending Lidku flipping scum. Is this reasonable to you?
I'd like to add that, since Fallacy confirmed not receiving an action from me, option B is impossible unless you believe I can choose whether to give those out, which doesn't really make sense, since I would have had no reason to do it n1 in that case.
Well I'm just gonna go ahead and push the issue then.Lol, nah. I mean, it's still in the back of my mind, it's always in the back of my mind, but if Lidku's town and you managed to goad him to react this badly, I guess you deserve the win.
FoU:
and Max: How likely do you both think that Lenglon and myself are the scumteam after all this?
Now, I do want to say one thing that's still technically possible, the thing I was referencing to TricMagic before. If Fallacy is telling the truth, it is possible for a town player to be recognized as mafia for the purposes of another ability. If he's not, it seems likely that he got the idea from somewhere. Either way, the possibility of a mafia player who is recognized as town for the purposes of other abilities would make sense to fit into the game. Other abilities such as, maybe, a town-only bodyguarding power. Notably, it seems to me that this would make a lot of sense to go with the crane ability, since that continues to increase in power, and it would make sense as a nerf for one mafia player to be unable to act through it due to counting as town - possibly specifically the one using it, so that he has to set up the partner.
That's very much trying to outguess the mod. But I think it hangs together as a minority possibility. I don't want to lose sight of it.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 19, 2022, 10:16:45 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 19, 2022, 10:19:30 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 19, 2022, 10:20:13 pm
Reminder hammer is at 4 right now.
Post by: TricMagic on July 19, 2022, 10:22:21 pm
You assume them voting you is the result of a mafia backchannel to get a reaction. They don't need to get a reaction, Lenglon has enough town-cred to get you lynched. Them both voting you is not a sign of them being the scumteam together.
So, can I assume from this that you think I'm scum who is buttering up Lenglon by using my abilities on her?
TricMagic: Additionally, I would like to hear your thoughts on this "crane" ability and why Max and I were targeted with it.I'm mostly reducing things into various paths that could exist.
Targeting Max has a few reasons, Though would need to look over day 1 to see if Max claimed something or not. It did remove them beyond town's power to save, but Max saved themselves. The question becomes thus, can it target Mafia?
A Lenglon/Shakerag team is almost laughable in this scenario. Not impossible, but there is too much that can go wrong by removing you from the equation. (That being targetable for town). It would be a good way to remove my ability to inspect you though. But then if I had been going that route I would have investigated Lenglon instead. Or blocked Lidku, but wanted to make sure of things, given I thought he would be using his Bus ability, not the protect thing.
As I said, it's dependent on if it can target Mafia or not. However, if it can then I can safely say the team would be Lidku/Shakerag? That's just on possibility though, and Lidku if Mafia completely missed the Fal possibility. And a Lidku/Shakerag team is one that will crash if Lidku gets lynched.
Going down that route. Lidku used a super to remove Fallacy from interacting at all. And Lenglon did the kill and is bussing Lidku hard. Or the opposite occurred, but less likely based on flavor. Whispers aren't cranes. Notable, Lidku would be bussed in this scenario to achieve the victory, in which case, good on her for fooling us all.
Way too late to criticize this bit of logic on my end. Should get to bed.
Nin. Lidku, yu messed up your formatting. Also, you're still intentionally doing what you've done all game. There is only 1 Faction Kill normally. Fal doing nothing is consistent with one of my abilities blocking him from acting without informing him. Which is absolutely dumb on my end since he'd notice he didn't get an ability, but could be pushed as you and I being the team. But that requires Fal/Max and a framejob, or Fal/Lenglon. You never actually mentioned them, despite them opening many possible scum-teams if you're town. As scum, you'd miss it.
More ninja, baa.
Post by: Lidku on July 19, 2022, 10:22:32 pm
Bedtime for me. Unvote just to avoid the hammer and get more discussion, but I will re-vote Lidku tomorrow, barring some insane revelation.
Reminder hammer is at 4 right now.
If you're so sure about me being Mafia, why worry about a hammer at all? Wouldn't it make sense just to leave it?
Post by: Lidku on July 19, 2022, 10:27:28 pm
You know what?
I want to see something.
Lidku
Post by: TricMagic on July 19, 2022, 10:30:00 pm
One thing I don't fully understand about the night is this: If Fallacy really didn't target me, what did he do? It would seem pretty stupid for him to intentionally break off from the routine we'd planned, then have Lidku do the kill - unless he had an even more important power available. It seems to me like the roleblock option is more likely. Tric, what's your theory?
Mine is pretty simple. Only 1 FactionKill can be used at a time, and tying it to you would mean another night without a kill. It's the most obvious if considering Fal as Mafia. Which makes it the weirdest that Lidku never came up with that theory. Granted, beginner. But that's why you ask questions Lidku. It's why N1 matters here, there was no known kill, just the known attempt by Fal.
And there goes the self-vote. Let me guess, you thing that will get people off your back? It might but uh.. There isn't any desperation. Use it with a case that you put together for when you flip town. Let your thoughts flow into the thread that will lead town to the right answer.
Post by: Lenglon on July 19, 2022, 10:33:18 pm
Hm. I find it suspicious Shakerag would just remove his vote, worrying about a hammer of all things? His justification for removing it is really weird.I have a feeling you're about to propose something about as realistic as this:
You know what?
I want to see something.
Lidku
to which yes, Shakerag's reaction then was the right one, and the one that I'm going to borrow now:True, we still haven't ruled out that a NPC Velociraptor was the true scum all along.ಠ_ಠ
ಠ_ಠ
Post by: Lidku on July 19, 2022, 10:42:49 pm
Let me guess, you thing that will get people off your back? It might but uh.. There isn't any desperation. Use it with a case that you put together for when you flip town. Let your thoughts flow into the thread that will lead town to the right answer.
Not at all. With how everything is snowballing here from Lenglon and Shakerag, I KNOW I'm likely to be the D3 lynch. But I want to understand why Shakerag would cast off his vote off of me, for "tomorrow" for "discussions". If he's so preeminent on me and you being on a team, why would he withdraw his vote and be "afraid" of a hammer happening?
It doesn't make sense to me. Is he not confident in me being Mafia or not? If he is, why not just leave it?
Post by: TricMagic on July 19, 2022, 10:46:03 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 19, 2022, 10:46:35 pm
[long and I don't want to include the whole thing but there's no obvious single point to snip]Oh, and I just realized, a Fallacy/Max team is actually impossible because we would've hammered, unless you believe it isn't really MYLO.
Incidentally, the fact that it's almost certainly MYLO means that certain statements that have been made about whether any given team would be willing to go all in to vote out Lidku are invalid since voting out Lidku would end the game and there is then no more need to worry about any other problems. This also makes voting out Egan at the beginning more suspicious in my eyes due to his being a double voter, which I slightly forgot, and which would have put off MYLO.
I'm pretty sure I can't be paired with anyone but Fallacy either - unless you believe that I'm the one who roleblocked Fallacy, maybe? That doesn't make any sense from my perspective, though. And I'm not sure how it would work unless my roleblock was a super since it would be a block against a block in that case. Truthfully, if I put my mafia hat on for a minute and think about what I would do in that scenario, I think I'd want Fallacy to target me and confirm I didn't do the kill, anyway - I'm not convinced I couldn't argue that his own claim could justify the possibility that he had the ability to use his kills (maybe in a genuinely non-killing way like he said) while his partner also mafiakills. Usually people tend to fakeclaim things that are at least partially true, after all. So him being "confirmed town", or at least not the killer of Knightwing, doesn't seem like enough of a problem that I would want to waste my turn blocking him to do it. Also I've been calling him town all along, and he says I'm town, so I'd probably want to take him to endgame anyway, you know?
Actually, thinking about that and then reading Tric's last post, and maybe being just a little half-asleep, I can almost imagine a world where Fallacy is mafia but telling the truth about his mafiakills being fake, who roleblocks me to try to stop me from hiding so that the partner can really kill me. That's getting pretty velociraptory though. Might be an interesting idea for a future game...
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 19, 2022, 10:47:55 pm
Hm. I find it suspicious Shakerag would just remove his vote, worrying about a hammer of all things? His justification for removing it is really weird.Do you want to get hammered? Are you afraid of giving something away? Because I'm not going to hammer you.
You know what?
I want to see something.
Lidku
Post by: TricMagic on July 19, 2022, 10:53:07 pm
... If I haven't misunderstood my role again. It says "Ability I haven't yet Chosen", not an "Ability from a Player I haven't yet Chosen." I would have chosen an Investigation Ability if I knew that instead of the Crystal Ball.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 20, 2022, 01:13:45 am
FoU: I have been considering the thought that the crane user (assuming they aren't Lidku) could make it difficult to coordinate actions tonight, and seems to be growing in power every night. For mechanical reasons I would benefit from targeting the same person you do, and I do not have a way to bypass the crane. Tonight when you are deciding on your action target, if you are uncertain of who to target with your action, and one of your potential targets is behind the crane and one is not, please target the one that is not hidden by the crane. Of course, if you do have a better target and a reason for it then you should go with your own idea. The synergy would be nice but it'd be far better for you to have a well-aimed ability. Thank you.Noted.
People I can trust: Maximum Spin.
People I can't trust: Everyone else, including myself.
Is there any reason we're not mass full-claiming when it's literally MYLO?
Post by: Lenglon on July 20, 2022, 02:11:55 am
Is there any reason we're not mass full-claiming when it's literally MYLO?I think I'm the only one that hasn't fullclaimed at this point. Is there a need? I don't really want to reveal because I can be countered if the scum know what to do about me.
Post by: TricMagic on July 20, 2022, 08:27:10 am
Probably not at this point given your actions so far.Is there any reason we're not mass full-claiming when it's literally MYLO?I think I'm the only one that hasn't fullclaimed at this point. Is there a need? I don't really want to reveal because I can be countered if the scum know what to do about me.
Post by: Lidku on July 20, 2022, 11:01:42 am
I don't really want to reveal because I can be countered if the scum know what to do about me.
That's quite convenient, given on how you've claimed two different Inspection abilities and nothing else of variance, and is now putting accusations on me that I did something malicious on N2. If you're decidedly sure I AM scum, then what's the true fear of revealing what your role is to Town, for the sake of transparency?
The fact that you've already inferred that you have somesort of "big thing left hiding," already puts a target of Mafia wanting to counter you regardless. If you truly aren't Mafia, I think it would benefit the Town that you just say what your role is, especially considering the fact that you may be responsible for another Town person being lynched (and making us lose the game through MYLO).
Post by: Lenglon on July 20, 2022, 11:02:49 am
-outed scum going rolefishing-I don't care.
Post by: Lidku on July 20, 2022, 11:09:25 am
So whether you not care or care, I hope for the sake of Town your correct in your choice (if you're even Town, that is).
Post by: TricMagic on July 20, 2022, 12:32:01 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 20, 2022, 12:59:02 pm
Post by: TricMagic on July 20, 2022, 01:09:05 pm
Post by: Mamobo on July 20, 2022, 01:16:25 pm
------------------------
Lenglon - 1 - Lidku* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392325#msg8392325),
Lidku - 1 - Lenglon* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392064#msg8392064),
FallacyofUrist - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
Shakerag - 0 -
TricMagic - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 4 - FallacyofUrist, Maximum Spin, Shakerag* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392185#msg8392185), TricMagic,
4 to Hammer. Day ends on July 21, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (~30 hours remaining).
NOTE: In the event of a tie, the Mafia chooses the execution target.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 20, 2022, 03:19:15 pm
Very unlikely. In fact, it being day 3 and probably MYLO, I'll go ahead and explain how my role actually works: It's the other half of Fallacy's action that caused me to hear about it. I automatically hide if I don't act, and, if blocked by an ability, learn who and what was responsible. If I hide on my own - which so far has been my only option, because I didn't come with any powers - then I give myself an invention; otherwise the person who blocked me gets it. Since Fallacy's "kill" was a block, it triggered my ability and he stole the invention (a roleblock). A normal kill would still not affect me when hiding, but I wouldn't hear of it.Wait, did you gain an invention Night 2?
Post from phone
Post by: Shakerag on July 20, 2022, 03:21:17 pm
If you're so sure about me being Mafia, why worry about a hammer at all? Wouldn't it make sense just to leave it?
First of all, I could be wrong, so better safe than sorry on MYLO. Second, as Tric mentioned, running out the clock to get more discussion time is good. That gives us all more to work with.
Post by: Shakerag on July 20, 2022, 03:29:45 pm
Max I'm willing to take you up on looking for Lidku's partner in discussion only for today. I am not willing to give up a lynch on confirmed scum in order to take a blind shot at maybe-scum.Right, I agree with this. Personally, I'd take the shot if I felt it was really really obvious and eat the blame for the loss if it came down to it, but I don't really think it's getting to that point today anyway. Certainly the Tric Interaction doesn't rise to that level even though I find it suspicious.
On that point, gut feeling only, I wonder if Tric is throwing Lidku under the bus today. I thought I had remembered Tric as being more defensive towards me last night, but on re-read I'm not getting that anywhere near as strongly now.
I'm slightly surprised no one is suggesting no lynch for the day. I thought that used to be the "technically best play" on MYLO? Or did that change?
Post by: Lenglon on July 20, 2022, 03:31:57 pm
I'm slightly surprised no one is suggesting no lynch for the day. I thought that used to be the "technically best play" on MYLO? Or did that change?I think it still is generally, but I honestly am just that confident that Lidku's scum at this point.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 20, 2022, 04:00:21 pm
I was thinking the same thing, yes. In theory, I'd suggest it, but I don't see the point now.I'm slightly surprised no one is suggesting no lynch for the day. I thought that used to be the "technically best play" on MYLO? Or did that change?I think it still is generally, but I honestly am just that confident that Lidku's scum at this point.
Wait, did you gain an invention Night 2?Yes.
Post by: Lidku on July 20, 2022, 04:21:56 pm
On that point, gut feeling only, I wonder if Tric is throwing Lidku under the bus today. I thought I had remembered Tric as being more defensive towards me last night, but on re-read I'm not getting that anywhere near as strongly now.
Is there actually any particular concrete reason why you think I'm supposedly on a "team" with TricMagic?
Post by: Shakerag on July 20, 2022, 05:15:13 pm
On that point, gut feeling only, I wonder if Tric is throwing Lidku under the bus today. I thought I had remembered Tric as being more defensive towards me last night, but on re-read I'm not getting that anywhere near as strongly now.
Is there actually any particular concrete reason why you think I'm supposedly on a "team" with TricMagic?
No, hence why I said it was a gut feeling. I thought that was made clear?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 20, 2022, 05:42:24 pm
Very unlikely. In fact, it being day 3 and probably MYLO, I'll go ahead and explain how my role actually works: It's the other half of Fallacy's action that caused me to hear about it. I automatically hide if I don't act, and, if blocked by an ability, learn who and what was responsible. If I hide on my own - which so far has been my only option, because I didn't come with any powers - then I give myself an invention; otherwise the person who blocked me gets it. Since Fallacy's "kill" was a block, it triggered my ability and he stole the invention (a roleblock). A normal kill would still not affect me when hiding, but I wouldn't hear of it.To clarify, do you have to be actually blocked or just targeted by a block?
So the most likely situation is that I was blocked Night 2. Ultimately this means that if we're wrong about Lidku being scum, I'll be blocked again Night 3, which'll prevent me from having any shot at roleblocking whoever may be performing the scum mafiakill.
Is there any reason not to no-execute? Confident or not, you can never be 100% sure of things. I'm feeling pretty paranoid about everything going wrong right now. This is either our moment of triumph or our final step before our loss.
Post by: TricMagic on July 20, 2022, 05:43:58 pm
Very unlikely. In fact, it being day 3 and probably MYLO, I'll go ahead and explain how my role actually works: It's the other half of Fallacy's action that caused me to hear about it. I automatically hide if I don't act, and, if blocked by an ability, learn who and what was responsible. If I hide on my own - which so far has been my only option, because I didn't come with any powers - then I give myself an invention; otherwise the person who blocked me gets it. Since Fallacy's "kill" was a block, it triggered my ability and he stole the invention (a roleblock). A normal kill would still not affect me when hiding, but I wouldn't hear of it.To clarify, do you have to be actually blocked or just targeted by a block?
So the most likely situation is that I was blocked Night 2. Ultimately this means that if we're wrong about Lidku being scum, I'll be blocked again Night 3, which'll prevent me from having any shot at roleblocking whoever may be performing the scum mafiakill.
Is there any reason not to no-execute? Confident or not, you can never be 100% sure of things. I'm feeling pretty paranoid about everything going wrong right now. This is either our moment of triumph or our final step before our loss.
You kinda need to figure out who would have roleblocked you Fal. Getting nervous with the crane operator about to go?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 20, 2022, 05:55:42 pm
Ultimately I can't determine who blocked me, because the claims just aren't confirmable enough. If it's Lenglon-Shakerag then Shake could be doing anything with his actions while Lenglon covers for him. Max isn't actually blocked when I block him, because my actions fail when targeting his hide effect, so he could have blocked me for whatever reason. I don't think your action is confirmed either.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 20, 2022, 06:05:07 pm
To clarify, do you have to be actually blocked or just targeted by a block?Actually blocked, sort of. As a matter of fact, I asked webadict about it at the time because I thought it was weird that you could block me while I was hiding, and he said that the roleblock didn't technically *work* on me, but "it's weird". So I'm not really sure how to define the interaction, but what I described is what seems to make sense.
Max isn't actually blocked when I block him, because my actions fail when targeting his hide effect, so he could have blocked me for whatever reason.While this is theoretically possible, I can't act and hide at the same time, and even if you think I might be lying about that, it doesn't seem likely to me that anyone would be given that ability, since it would make that player immune to everything.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 20, 2022, 06:12:38 pm
While this is theoretically possible, I can't act and hide at the same time, and even if you think I might be lying about that, it doesn't seem likely to me that anyone would be given that ability, since it would make that player immune to everything.So this is why I trust you the most of everyone. You can't (reasonably) have performed the kill and can't (reasonably) have been the one to roleblock me.
... Of course, unpredictable role shenanigans are still an option, but barring that, you're the least likely to be responsible for confirmed mafia actions last night.
Post by: TricMagic on July 20, 2022, 06:16:27 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 20, 2022, 06:28:09 pm
What's your reasoning for a no-lynch here Fal?A: The mafia cannot kill more than one person per night, or at least it's very very unlikely that they can.
B: We do not know 100% for sure that Lidku is mafia. It's a matter of 'do we trust Lenglon or Lidku more' and as much as I trust Lenglon more, my paranoia is tingling.
So sue me, I'm just nervous about the outcome of this game. No-executing narrows things down a bit more without any risk to town.
Post by: Lidku on July 20, 2022, 06:57:57 pm
Ultimately I can't determine who blocked me, because the claims just aren't confirmable enough.
Am I wrong, but hasn't TricMagic claimed to have blocked you before?
Post by: TricMagic on July 20, 2022, 07:12:51 pm
Ultimately I can't determine who blocked me, because the claims just aren't confirmable enough.
Am I wrong, but hasn't TricMagic claimed to have blocked you before?
Pretty sure that's a no Lidku. I've only got one ability that can do that, and that's Spook.
As for Fal, if we don't lynch today we end up in Mylo. Least lynchig today gives a chance to prevent the mafiakill. Sadly for you, I'm fairly certainly you're the other one if there are no Liars.
Shakerag claims to have given something to Lenglon, which Lenglon confirms. Max confirms you never hit them. I bussed you and myself. Lidku Superprotects, and you try and mug Max.
Max's ability is already known, Lenglon is likely town and paints Lidku as scum via her track. I ignore myself since I know my alignment. There isn't a roleblock in circulation N2, but N1 there was no nightkill. N2 you did not Mug. It would fit with being stuck because there is no more than one Factionkill.
If Lidku isn't the crane-operator, this is thrown out the window. If he is, then you're going to get roleblocked tonight by me. You, meanwhile, should attempt to Mug me. We'll see what happens, yeah?
Post by: Lenglon on July 20, 2022, 07:18:59 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 20, 2022, 08:08:02 pm
As mentioned, I bypass the crane entirely. It was never really relevant to me, which I guess makes up for my weak role a little bit.
Ultimately I can't determine who blocked me, because the claims just aren't confirmable enough. If it's Lenglon-Shakerag then Shake could be doing anything with his actions while Lenglon covers for him. Max isn't actually blocked when I block him, because my actions fail when targeting his hide effect, so he could have blocked me for whatever reason. I don't think your action is confirmed either.
I guess that depends on how comfortable you are with a Lenglon-Shake scumteam. Honestly, I'm about at my limit so I'd just like to see the game resolved. I'm not certain if I even want to action tonight because my role is so shite.
Post by: Shakerag on July 20, 2022, 08:09:08 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 20, 2022, 08:10:40 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 20, 2022, 08:21:03 pm
Honestly, I'm about at my limit so I'd just like to see the game resolved. I'm not certain if I even want to action tonight because my role is so shite.I don't understand why you think so poorly of your role.
Post by: Lenglon on July 20, 2022, 08:31:33 pm
I got "remove an action" and "delayed 1N roleblock" left and fuck me if I know who do put that sin on.you remove an action from FoU. FoU roleblocks + mafiakills Tric, if he's town and you happen to remove his auto, then he roleblocks+nightkills Tric. If he IS mafia, you simply weaken his abilities without changing the total number of mafiakills. If Tric has the role they say they have, then even if FoU is mafia then Tric will live because of their own roleblock. If Tric is lying, then FoU's action kills them, assuming you get the auto removed.
and the night after, if it happens, we will have to have lynched town, so you'll want to delay roleblock the last mafia to prevent the endgame nightkill, giving us a extra final day to find and kill the last scum.
Post by: TricMagic on July 20, 2022, 08:37:15 pm
I got "remove an action" and "delayed 1N roleblock" left and fuck me if I know who do put that sin on.
I would suggest hitting either me or Max with the delayed roleblock. Depends on which of us you think are scum. I still got two protects left in my kit. Or I could track someone, but bit late for that.
Lidku
Who you hit would determine if town lives to see another day. (I'll just say would rather you hit Max there, since I can't Protect if that happens.)
I'll be awaiting a Mugging Fal.
...That said, not the worst of plans. Up to you Shakerag.
Post by: TricMagic on July 20, 2022, 08:38:12 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 20, 2022, 08:42:13 pm
Also, if Lidku's actually town everything is off the rails tonight.Of course, I think we can all take that as a given.
Post by: Lidku on July 20, 2022, 08:43:29 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 20, 2022, 09:18:42 pm
Lidku
wtf
Post by: Shakerag on July 20, 2022, 09:19:49 pm
Post by: TricMagic on July 20, 2022, 09:22:27 pm
Post by: webadict on July 20, 2022, 09:39:29 pm
Post by: webadict on July 20, 2022, 09:43:17 pm
Lidku looks from face to face to face, and understanding begins to form in his eyes. You hear him a whistle, watching as a crane slams into FallacyofUrist, picking him up and into the rafters alongside Maximum Spin and Shakerag. Lidku grabs onto the crane, as Lenglon attempts to grab onto his legs, barely missing.
When the crane lands, Lidku bolts, nimbly moving along the steel beams towards the window. As he jumps over Shakerag, he barely trips over an outstretched wing. He falls, gliding to a beam before Maximum Spin throws piece of rebar at Lidku, causing Lidku to lose his momentum.
As Lidku hurtles towards the floor, he simply chooses to fall.
Mother Hen collects his body. You only realize he's alive when she returns a few moments later.
"He cracked quite easily. That's one rogue agent down." She puts a talon on the light switch, but thinks better of it this time. Instead, when the door closes, the lights overhead smash into the ground.
Vote Count
------------------------
Lidku - 4 - Lenglon* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392064#msg8392064), Shakerag* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392482#msg8392482), TricMagic* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392491#msg8392491), Lidku* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392495#msg8392495),
FallacyofUrist - 0 -
Lenglon - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
Shakerag - 0 -
TricMagic - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 2 - FallacyofUrist, Maximum Spin,
4 to Hammer. Day ends on July 21, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (22 hours and 39 minutes remaining.)
Lidku has been executed.
Lidku was a Planet Trade Organization Officer (Mafia).
FallacyofUrist is no longer targetable by Town Players. (Alongside Maximum Spin and Shakerag)
It is now Night. You have 24 hours to send in an Action. If you wish to use no Action, please send that in.
Quote
Lidku
Role: Planet Trade Organization Officer
Alignment: Mafia
Abilities:
(Day) Embargo [target/self]: The target or yourself may not be the target of Actions performed by Town Players. All Players are notified at the end of the Day of this choice.
{P10} (Night) Purchase [target]: Pick one (1) of the following Abilities and give it to the target and yourself.
- (Auto) Attack Ball: You cannot be Bussed, Blocked, or Redirected.
- (Auto) Saiyan Armor: You Learn any Actions that target you.
- (Auto) Ray Gun: Mafiakill Actions you perform ignore Protections and Revives.
- (Auto) Saibamen: Inspects against you return Town.
- (Auto) Scouter: At the end of each Night, you Learn a random Town Player’s role.
Tags: Gift
{P10} (1-Shot, Night) Buy-Out [target]: You remove all Actions from the target. If the target is Town, they gain an additional vote for the remainder of the game.
Tags: Steal, Motivate
Post by: webadict on July 21, 2022, 07:26:00 pm
Several technicians enter the room, placing floor lamps that turn the entire warehouse into a cheap haunted amusement ride, which goes fittingly with the Shakerag corpse hanging from the rafters.
As they bring the body down and into the next room, several additional agents burst into the room, and you recognize the Orpington feather they wear. Mother Hen talks with them in hushed whispers before reminding you that these rogue agents must be dealt with. She orders you to find them and then everyone else leaves the room.
Shakerag has died.
Shakerag was The Beginner BYOR 2 Role That Won’t Ruin The Balance (Town).
Vote Count
------------------------
FallacyofUrist - 0 -
Lenglon - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
TricMagic - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 4 - FallacyofUrist, Lenglon, Maximum Spin, TricMagic,
3 to Hammer. Day ends on July 24, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (~72 hours remaining).
Quote
Shakerag
Role: The Beginner BYOR 2 Role That Won’t Ruin The Balance
Alignment: Town
Abilities:
{P5} (Used, Night) Bodyblock [target]: Whenever the target would be Killed by an Action, you are Killed instead. This Action lasts for the rest of the game and does nothing on non-Allied players.
Tags: Protect
{P10} (1-Shot, Night) Yawn [target]: The target is roleblocked during the following Night. The target is warned that they will be roleblocked.
Tags: Block
{P10} (1-Shot, Night) Obliterate [target]: Remove a random Ability from the target.
Tags: Remove
{P10} (Used, Night) Redouble [target]: Choose another Action you own. Give a 1-Shot copy of the Action to the target.
Tags: Gift
{P-1} (1-Shot, Night) 2 Times: Choose another Action you own that can be used and remove it from your role. Perform that Action twice, with separate targets and Choices for each Action.
Tags: Super
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 21, 2022, 07:28:15 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 21, 2022, 07:34:50 pm
My role name is Catch Us (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJUQy6kdSUk)
I started the game with three one-shots:
Arrogance, the inspect that inspects target 1 and gives the results to target 2.
Watch Us, which tells me what action the target performed.
and Coming Out Alive, a protect, which if it successfully blocks a Kill Action, I become notified and gain a Shot in the ability I choose.
I had thought previously that Coming Out Alive would count FoU's mafiakills as Kill Actions, however I checked with Web during the night and apparently a Mafiakill that does not Kill does not count as a Kill action.
The ability I was given by Shake was:
2 times, a one-shot, which lets me pick another action and remove it from my role in order to do it twice at once, with separate targets.
My plan had been to use 2 times on Coming Out Alive, one on Shake and one on Max.
This was of course ruined because the crane effects didn't die with the crane operator.
Last night I used 2 Times on Coming Out Alive, and had both uses target TricMagic, since that's literally the only person I could target. They did NOT trigger, but all three actions were successful, so I was not roleblocked.
I am now literally powerless. I have no remaining uses on my 1-shots, and am a vanilla townie.
So here is my current working theory on what happened:
N1, Lidku used Purchase, and because he was defeated by a godfather in his last mafia game, he chose the Saibamen option, making both himself and his scumbuddy inspect as town.
N2, Lidku did the nightkill on the only townie that had not fullclaimed other than myself -> Knightwing. because nobody would believe that they only had a single 1-shot. The reason it wasn't used on me was because Shakerag bodyguarded me.
N1, either Tric or FoU performed the mafiakill on Max.
N2, they did something similar to Purchase, possibly a roleblock.
My current working theory is that FoU is the last scum, that Tricmagic told the truth all game, and that on N2 when Tric bussed themselves with FoU, FoU had been attempting to roleblock Tric, and he ended up roleblocking himself.
However, it's still very possible for it to be Tric, therefore:
TricMagic, could you check with web and make sure that if you are today's lynch you can hammer the last scum tomorrow? As in, could we theoretically win just by lynching you be you town or scum?
Post by: Lenglon on July 21, 2022, 07:38:46 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 21, 2022, 07:48:13 pm
Tric:
I understand why you couldn't target FoU, but you should have roleblocked ME last night. That way I could confirm that you didn't perform the mafiakill.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 21, 2022, 08:11:35 pm
TricMagic, could you check with web and make sure that if you are today's lynch you can hammer the last scum tomorrow? As in, could we theoretically win just by lynching you be you town or scum?Yeah, hopefully this is the case.
Currently my suspicion is that TricMagic is scum, but it's still technically possible (if very unlikely) that Maximum Spin is the last scum.
In the interests of full disclosure, my other mafiakill is Bleed Out. It kills at the end of the Night (prevented by my Auto, just like Mug), and both tracks and watches the target, but gives the results to me in one list without filtering. So I learn the players who targeted them and the players they targeted, but not which is which. Like Mug, it is a 2-shot.
Definitely feel like my role is the most underpowered here. I guess the ability to directly stop someone from performing the kill is worth something? Unfortunately I don't think I've succeeded in that all game.
Post by: TricMagic on July 21, 2022, 08:20:02 pm
by the way:
Tric:
I understand why you couldn't target FoU, but you should have roleblocked ME last night. That way I could confirm that you didn't perform the mafiakill.
Probably, yeah. I was seriously worried about interrupting whatever action you had planed though.
Alos, Falacy is lying, nothing happened to me last night. Let me check my abilities really quickly, though I have access to Dragon Cloak still.
Post by: Lenglon on July 21, 2022, 08:21:36 pm
Like I said, I think it's FoU, but if you will be able to hammer from the grave then we can cover all possibilities.by the way:
Tric:
I understand why you couldn't target FoU, but you should have roleblocked ME last night. That way I could confirm that you didn't perform the mafiakill.
Probably, yeah. I was seriously worried about interrupting whatever action you had planed though.
Alos, Falacy is lying, nothing happened to me last night. Let me check my abilities really quickly, though I have access to Dragon Cloak still.
Post by: TricMagic on July 21, 2022, 08:24:16 pm
As of right now, it can only be either me or Fal, I think. NJW got Town as a result. Just as well I never picked an inspect.
Post by: Shakerag on July 21, 2022, 08:25:24 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 21, 2022, 08:28:51 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 21, 2022, 08:30:32 pm
[[Hi, I'm dead but since this is technically a beginner's game I can still post in a neutral way. It may behoove you all to look back at previous lynches and see who voted for whom. Also it may be beneficial to look at interactions between players given roleflips. This late in the game, previous posts become all the more important.]]((To be fair, I think the newest player left here is Tric, and I don't think Tric is all that new))
Post by: webadict on July 21, 2022, 08:32:51 pm
------------------------
FallacyofUrist voted Shakerag [#78 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8388935#msg8388935)]
Lenglon voted TricMagic [#83 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8388943#msg8388943)]
Egan_BW voted FallacyofUrist [#89 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8388950#msg8388950)]
Shakerag voted Egan_BW [#110 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8388977#msg8388977)]
NJW2000 voted Maximum Spin [#150 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389090#msg8389090)]
TricMagic voted Shakerag [#153 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389110#msg8389110)]
Lenglon voted Maximum Spin [#159 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389129#msg8389129)]
Maximum Spin voted Lenglon [#164 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389180#msg8389180)]
Egan_BW unvoted [#175 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389247#msg8389247)]
TricMagic voted Maximum Spin [#182 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389271#msg8389271)]
FallacyofUrist voted Maximum Spin [#185 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389283#msg8389283)]
FallacyofUrist unvoted [#187 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389292#msg8389292)]
Maximum Spin voted NJW2000 [#197 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389317#msg8389317)]
Shakerag voted FallacyofUrist [#228 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389374#msg8389374)]
Maximum Spin unvoted [#231 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389377#msg8389377)]
Shakerag unvoted [#234 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389380#msg8389380)]
Shakerag voted TricMagic [#235 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389388#msg8389388)]
NJW2000 voted FallacyofUrist [#256 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389533#msg8389533)]
Maximum Spin voted Egan_BW [#258 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389545#msg8389545)]
FallacyofUrist voted NJW2000 [#276 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389664#msg8389664)]
Lenglon voted Knightwing64 [#278 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389719#msg8389719)]
TricMagic voted No One [#305 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389763#msg8389763)]
Knightwing64 voted Lenglon [#308 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389770#msg8389770)]
Egan_BW voted Knightwing64 [#311 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389773#msg8389773)]
Maximum Spin voted TricMagic [#333 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389800#msg8389800)]
Lidku voted FallacyofUrist [#352 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389821#msg8389821)]
Lenglon unvoted [#359 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389828#msg8389828)]
Egan_BW unvoted [#360 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389829#msg8389829)]
Lenglon voted TricMagic [#365 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389834#msg8389834)]
FallacyofUrist voted Egan_BW [#388 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389872#msg8389872)]
TricMagic voted Lidku [#399 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389972#msg8389972)]
Lenglon voted NJW2000 [#401 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389976#msg8389976)]
NJW2000 voted FallacyofUrist [#404 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8389993#msg8389993)]
Lenglon unvoted [#413 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390036#msg8390036)]
Maximum Spin unvoted [#415 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390042#msg8390042)]
Lidku voted TricMagic [#424 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390057#msg8390057)]
Maximum Spin voted TricMagic [#437 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390101#msg8390101)]
TricMagic voted Egan_BW [#448 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390157#msg8390157)]
Maximum Spin voted Egan_BW [#449 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390160#msg8390160)]
Egan_BW voted FallacyofUrist [#451 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390166#msg8390166)]
FallacyofUrist voted Egan_BW [#455 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390183#msg8390183)]
FallacyofUrist voted Egan_BW [#459 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390192#msg8390192)]
Shakerag voted Egan_BW [#461 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390198#msg8390198)]
Knightwing64 voted FallacyofUrist [#466 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390209#msg8390209)]
Lenglon voted Egan_BW [#471 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390215#msg8390215)]
Egan_BW unvoted [#490 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390235#msg8390235)]
Knightwing64 voted Egan_BW [#509 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390258#msg8390258)]
Vote Tracker Day 2
------------------------
Maximum Spin voted FallacyofUrist [#514 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390562#msg8390562)]
Maximum Spin unvoted [#543 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390734#msg8390734)]
TricMagic voted Lidku [#572 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390859#msg8390859)]
Shakerag voted FallacyofUrist [#592 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8390943#msg8390943)]
FallacyofUrist voted NJW2000 [#602 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8391131#msg8391131)]
TricMagic voted NJW2000 [#614 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8391173#msg8391173)]
FallacyofUrist voted NJW2000 [#619 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8391193#msg8391193)]
Maximum Spin voted Shakerag [#641 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8391354#msg8391354)]
Shakerag voted NJW2000 [#672 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8391492#msg8391492)]
Lidku voted TricMagic [#677 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8391499#msg8391499)]
TricMagic voted Lidku [#682 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8391505#msg8391505)]
Lenglon voted NJW2000 [#712 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8391729#msg8391729)]
Vote Tracker Day 3
------------------------
Lenglon voted Lidku [#716 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392064#msg8392064)]
Shakerag voted Lidku [#749 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392119#msg8392119)]
Lidku voted Lenglon [#754 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392126#msg8392126)]
Lidku voted Lenglon [#756 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392128#msg8392128)]
Shakerag unvoted [#805 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392185#msg8392185)]
Lidku voted Lidku [#808 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392189#msg8392189)]
Lidku voted Lenglon [#821 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392325#msg8392325)]
Shakerag voted Lidku [#845 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392482#msg8392482)]
TricMagic voted Lidku [#848 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392491#msg8392491)]
Lidku voted Lidku [#851 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392495#msg8392495)]
Post by: TricMagic on July 21, 2022, 08:33:58 pm
Well, other than Lidku's Attack Ball. How does two roleblocks work exactly anyway?
Thanks web! Let's see.
Post by: TricMagic on July 21, 2022, 08:39:20 pm
We know N1 Lidku performed an action. Fal Mugged Max, and Max could tell what Fal did and didn't die. The main point is which tells the truth, Fal or Max?
MaxinumSpin recieved no block from Fal. So, what did Max do last night? I'm wondering.
Post by: TricMagic on July 21, 2022, 08:43:12 pm
...Day 3 is a bit useless on the vote tracker.
Post by: TricMagic on July 21, 2022, 08:46:38 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 21, 2022, 08:48:02 pm
I mugged TricMagic to follow the plan posted earlier here.I got "remove an action" and "delayed 1N roleblock" left and fuck me if I know who do put that sin on.you remove an action from FoU. FoU roleblocks + mafiakills Tric, if he's town and you happen to remove his auto, then he roleblocks+nightkills Tric. If he IS mafia, you simply weaken his abilities without changing the total number of mafiakills. If Tric has the role they say they have, then even if FoU is mafia then Tric will live because of their own roleblock. If Tric is lying, then FoU's action kills them, assuming you get the auto removed.
and the night after, if it happens, we will have to have lynched town, so you'll want to delay roleblock the last mafia to prevent the endgame nightkill, giving us a extra final day to find and kill the last scum.
If that wasn't the most up to date version, I apologize.
FoU: Could you please explain why it is highly unlikely to be Max for us please?1, I think Lidku would have behaved very differently with Max in scumchat.
2, Spin's role doesn't make much sense as mafia, I think, though this is a weaker point.
Side note, if I was mafia, why on earth would I target Maximum Spin, who claimed a hide-type ability, with my kill on Night 1, when I could have killed basically anyone else and been more productive with it? Spin confirmed Mug was used with his ability, and NJW's roleflip contains a copy of Mug so anyone can see it's not some fancy hide bypassing ability.
I don't think Spin's claimed this Night's results yet.
Post by: Lenglon on July 21, 2022, 08:49:17 pm
Side note, if I was mafia, why on earth would I target Maximum Spin, who claimed a hide-type ability, with my kill on Night 1, when I could have killed basically anyone else and been more productive with it? Spin confirmed Mug was used with his ability, and NJW's roleflip contains a copy of Mug so anyone can see it's not some fancy hide bypassing ability.Because if his hide was a self-targeted ability then him being hit by the crane would have prevented him from targeting himself.
I don't think Spin's claimed this Night's results yet.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 21, 2022, 08:53:14 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 21, 2022, 08:56:22 pm
Is that generally how hide abilities work?Okay, so what do you think were the night actions each night?
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 21, 2022, 08:59:05 pm
I had thought previously that Coming Out Alive would count FoU's mafiakills as Kill Actions, however I checked with Web during the night and apparently a Mafiakill that does not Kill does not count as a Kill action.It's interesting that you say that, since, the very first night, the action Fallacy used on me was explicitly listed as a Kill.
It said both "Mafiakill" and "Kill", as I believe I said at the time.
My current working theory is that FoU is the last scum, that Tricmagic told the truth all game, and that on N2 when Tric bussed themselves with FoU, FoU had been attempting to roleblock Tric, and he ended up roleblocking himself.This actually sounds mechanically very plausible, and I like how neatly it ties up the night actions. I'm annoyed to think Fallacy would have been able to convince me he was town, though.
I hid last night. I was hoping to draw the kill by announcing that I had gained a power that I was going to use, which would obviously have left me vulnerable, and I figured any relatively experienced player would have picked up on it. (The actual power I gained was just a watch, which I thought was pretty crappy under the crane circumstances. They're random from a list, it's very frustrating, I never actually got the good ones.)
One thing that I'm afraid of is this: If we lynch Tric, but Fallacy is actually scum, he has a reasonable strategy of no-killing and claiming to have roleblocked me (or just actually doing it). Since nobody else has any way to verify that, it would be impossible to know who was lying. He could also try this on Lenglon, but since Lenglon is targetable, my watch would mean I would be able to tell.
Alos, Falacy is lying, nothing happened to me last night.
As of right now, it can only be either me or Fal, I think.Technically, it could still be Lenglon dicking us all around with a massive bus, since we don't really know what role powers are involved... there might even be something to make Fallacy's claimed roleblock on you misfire to make him look bad. I don't know how likely I think this is anymore, but far less likely than that it really is just between you and Fallacy.
I guess I want to hear more from Fallacy. The fact that you're suddenly throwing shade back on me (even if it is "very unlikely") after saying last night that I was the only one you could trust is concerning. Was that all just buddying, then? (Oh, he actually posted while I was typing. It's not very alignment-indicative to me, but I guess he's not actually pivoting on me like I thought.)
Side note, if I was mafia, why on earth would I target Maximum Spin, who claimed a hide-type ability, with my kill on Night 1, when I could have killed basically anyone else and been more productive with it? Spin confirmed Mug was used with his ability, and NJW's roleflip contains a copy of Mug so anyone can see it's not some fancy hide bypassing ability.On top of what Lenglon said, I've also been the first nightkill after truthfully claiming a hide ability (that I just didn't use that turn) before, in the totem mafia I was in, AND I claimed commuter but chose not to commute in one of your own Marathon games which I think got me lynched or at least heavily suspected. It's not unreasonable you could've just thought I would do it again. That's why I thought baiting the kill would work this time, actually, but I guess I was just a lower-value target, probably since Shakerag was bodyguarding.
Post by: Lenglon on July 21, 2022, 09:17:50 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 21, 2022, 09:20:41 pm
Max: I'm rapidly becoming fully convinced that it's FoU, and am considering voting him instead of Tric simply to avoid the risk of him having some way to double-kill tonight or double-vote tomorrow, but am very aware of how risky that is compared to the no-vote or lynch Tric options.I definitely feel that. I think a no-lynch might be optimal, but... well, there's plenty of time so let's get as much information as possible, right?
Post by: Lenglon on July 21, 2022, 09:22:10 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 21, 2022, 09:23:36 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 21, 2022, 09:34:51 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 21, 2022, 09:43:33 pm
My current thoughts on the question I just asked FoU: based on the intimidated way Lidku played all game, paired with how a godfather made him lose his last game as town, and with how most of D1 was talking about millers and inspects, and nobody claimed to have roleblocks D1, I find it hard to believe that Lidku would pick anything other than Saibamen for his N1 purchase. I also suspect that Lidku's partner LACKS most if not all of the abilities that Lidku was able to choose from using Purchase, simply because they would be clearly inferior if they are doubling up on the same abilities. As a result I personally find it more likely that Max is scum with a weird gifting mechanic than that Tric is scum that can bypass roleblocks.I think this is a good point. Let me add one thing:
If I'm paired with Lidku, Lidku probably can't have used Purchase n1. I was confirmably hidden and untargetable n1, so I couldn't be the target unless you believe my role has an exception for a partner (since his flip clearly doesn't say it would be able to target a hiding partner); and nobody else has claimed to have received anything from it, so we should infer that nobody else was the target either.
I'm currently looking through last game's roles to see whether there are any powers that would apply. Tric usually more or less tells the truth about his role so I imagine that, even if he is scum, he's probably still using last game's powers.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 21, 2022, 09:44:36 pm
I'm currently looking through last game's roles to see whether there are any powers that would apply. Tric usually more or less tells the truth about his role so I imagine that, even if he is scum, he's probably still using last game's powers.... well, there is a roleblock-piercing super in the very first role on the document.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/15f43w-WKOU6TZVnVwivhCSyWdur-HDsnZIjyIA_VQqk
Post by: Lenglon on July 21, 2022, 09:54:45 pm
okay, now I'm back to gameplan: Lynch Tric First, Lenglon Dies Tonight, Tric Hammers.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 21, 2022, 09:57:54 pm
In retrospect, I don't think that one makes sense, though, since it targets someone else, so we'd have to speculate something more complicated for that to be it.I'm currently looking through last game's roles to see whether there are any powers that would apply. Tric usually more or less tells the truth about his role so I imagine that, even if he is scum, he's probably still using last game's powers.... well, there is a roleblock-piercing super in the very first role on the document.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/15f43w-WKOU6TZVnVwivhCSyWdur-HDsnZIjyIA_VQqk
More likely is my own role:
{PT} (Auto) An Entire Mind Game: Welcome to WIFOM, population you. Non-Kill Actions performed on you do nothing instead.
Tags: Trigger
...I think this might be optimal. If Tric is town, then Fallacy most likely just lied about roleblocking him, and we know what to do next.
okay, now I'm back to gameplan: Lynch Tric First, Lenglon Dies Tonight, Tric Hammers.
Post by: Lenglon on July 21, 2022, 10:01:23 pm
I think this might be optimal. If Tric is town, then Fallacy most likely just lied about roleblocking him, and we know what to do next.Sadly it's not that simple. Town!Tric No-Action'd last night, so I'm not at all convinced that he'd be notified that he'd been roleblocked. Which is why I have to consider the possibility that FoU and Tric are both town and that you're the true scum. I consider this the least likely of the three possibilities, but I kinda have to mention it.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 21, 2022, 10:04:16 pm
Wait, he did? That's a good point then. I must have missed him saying that so I'm going to go back and look.I think this might be optimal. If Tric is town, then Fallacy most likely just lied about roleblocking him, and we know what to do next.Sadly it's not that simple. Town!Tric No-Action'd last night, so I'm not at all convinced that he'd be notified that he'd been roleblocked. Which is why I have to consider the possibility that FoU and Tric are both town and that you're the true scum. I consider this the least likely of the three possibilities, but I kinda have to mention it.
... naturally, that means by the same token that I have to suspect you, as I'm sure you're aware.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 21, 2022, 10:06:27 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 21, 2022, 10:15:18 pm
... naturally, that means by the same token that I have to suspect you, as I'm sure you're aware.yep, I'd have to have faked out Shakerag's bodyguard somehow, And Saibamen wouldn't do it considering that it just changes inspect results. Oh, and on top of that you'd have to pair whatever let me do that with the existence of Lidku's Saibamen ability. And with me bussing Lidku for whatever reason. And with me whispering NJW that FoU is town on N1 for no benefit to myself. So, possible, but unlikely.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 21, 2022, 10:21:08 pm
And with me whispering NJW that FoU is town on N1 for no benefit to myself.Oh jeez, right, I didn't think of that. I was 100% willing to imagine an "acts as town" auto for the reason I explained yesterday (and I'm not as confident as you are that Lidku's abilities couldn't be duplicated, since it looks like he could give them to anyone), but there'd really be no reason for you to do that whatsoever, that I can think of.
All right, so, with that in mind, from my perspective, the Tric thing will almost certainly work. So that's what I say we should go for.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 21, 2022, 10:29:39 pm
I got a protect from my last hide. So I'm going to commit to protecting Lenglon, making me the only viable kill target. This will effectively guarantee that, if Tric is town, the final choice will come out all right.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 21, 2022, 10:33:01 pm
I got a protect from my last hide. So I'm going to commit to protecting Lenglon, making me the only viable kill target. This will effectively guarantee that, if Tric is town, the final choice will come out all right.(For the record, I was planning to do that anyway, I just wasn't going to claim it since I didn't want to get killed for doing it. But now I think it's better to set it up this way.)
Post by: TricMagic on July 21, 2022, 10:46:42 pm
Max: I'm rapidly becoming fully convinced that it's FoU, and am considering voting him instead of Tric simply to avoid the risk of him having some way to double-kill tonight or double-vote tomorrow, but am very aware of how risky that is compared to the no-vote or lynch Tric options.I definitely feel that. I think a no-lynch might be optimal, but... well, there's plenty of time so let's get as much information as possible, right?
Tric: lets pretend for the moment that Max has us all fooled, and is the final scum. Are you able to pick an ability that would prevent me from being tonight's mafiakill? It doesn't matter if you die because you can ghost-vote, but if you're the last townie standing then we lose. could you do it?
Barring another Super Action, yes. Dragonscale Cloaks are just that good. I would suggest Max Watch Lenglon, and Fal Mug me. Max will either see Lenglon be visited by me as I die, Die themselves, or I'll die. Or There could be no kill, but Max will be able to confirm I targeted Leglon.
... Actually, if Max watches me instead, then they will see Fal target me. Or not, in which case.. Still kinda dependent on Max being town, but it's a way to prove my own innocence. Kills would be blocked barring shenanigans.
You're welcome to argue I've been lying through my teeth the whole game though Fal.
Post by: TricMagic on July 21, 2022, 10:47:53 pm
...
okay, now I'm back to gameplan: Lynch Tric First, Lenglon Dies Tonight, Tric Hammers.
I did already give the report on web's answer. If mafia equals town, town loses. No vote in that cas.
Post by: TricMagic on July 21, 2022, 10:58:20 pm
TricMagic, you don't seem to have said one way or the other actually, so can you clarify whether you did anything last night?
Nope. The lynch Tric plan doesn't actually work given mafia just needs to equal or outnumber town. So..
TricMagic> Syncth Dragon Cloak for Lenglon
Fal>Mug TricMagic
Max>Watch Tricmagic
Lenglon=Townie
This should prove Fal the killer, correct? Either you or I die. Or that Bleed effect Fal has kills at end of day... But that still means we'd just need to pick someone.
Well, that or I survive due to this Bleed action being more delayed than is mentioned. If Fal is town, they would Mug me, preventing me from killing. Max can't self-kill, so they can't be the kill if Max is Mafia. So if Max dies, it's Fal, once again barring me lying through my teeth.
Most likely I die and Lenglon has to choose between two. This is kinda saying Max is town since it's reliant on them not killing me and claiming Fal targeted me. But night actions can probably solve that.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 22, 2022, 08:07:58 am
10:50 PM for me here, so bit late.TricMagic, you don't seem to have said one way or the other actually, so can you clarify whether you did anything last night?Nope. The lynch Tric plan doesn't actually work given mafia just needs to equal or outnumber town.
This deserves public clarification.
webadict: In a situation such that one town player is left alive, and one mafia player is left alive, does endgame occur if the town faction possesses two votes and the mafia faction possesses one?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 22, 2022, 08:10:41 am
Also Bleed Out says it kills at the end of the Night, not the end of the next Day.
Post by: TricMagic on July 22, 2022, 08:14:40 am
PfP againIf it kills at all, we can't trust what you say.
Also Bleed Out says it kills at the end of the Night, not the end of the next Day.
Post by: webadict on July 22, 2022, 08:20:47 am
webadict: In a situation such that one town player is left alive, and one mafia player is left alive, does endgame occur if the town faction possesses two votes and the mafia faction possesses one?Yes, the game ends immediately. The Mafia's goal is to equal or outnumber the Town in Beginner Mafia. This means that the Town possessing Roleblocks, Kills, extra or missing votes, or Kill Immunity will NOT stop the Mafia win condition, as it would in other games I run. This is mostly for sanity's sake, and so that Miseliminate and Lose and Eliminate or Lose are more clearly defined.
I've also been quite busy, but this is Miseliminate and Lose, sorry for not making that clear. That means a miselimination could lead to an immediate loss, should the Mafia successfully Kill someone Tonight.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 22, 2022, 10:13:35 am
As mentioned before, my auto ability prevents my mafiakill abilities from killing.PfP againIf it kills at all, we can't trust what you say.
Also Bleed Out says it kills at the end of the Night, not the end of the next Day.
Didn’t expect the win condition change, gotta be honest. Still it’s good to know.
If we decide to no execute, I’m mugging Tric again. I doubt he has another roleblock bypass. That should confirm him as scum.
Only me or Tric can be mafia at this point. Lidku’s self vote means that he was unlikely to have been tutored in chat by an experienced player, which leaves me (insane) or Tric (inexperienced). Lenglon or Spin would never advocate a self vote.
Unfortunately if I’m executed and I’m town, there’s a 50 50 we lose, based on whether or not Spin hides versus who Tric chooses to kill. This also applies if Tric is executed and I’m the last mafia.
Ultimately the 50 50 is biased in Tric’s favor, since he may be able to pull an ability out of nowhere to let him break it.
Tric’s claimed role fits the power level shown by Lidku’s role much better than mine does. I have middle grade utility and that’s it. Tric has whatever he wants.
Anyways. I’ll stake my confidence on TricMagic being the last scum. I don’t believe anyone else would let Lidku self vote.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 22, 2022, 10:16:52 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 22, 2022, 10:18:00 am
Post by: Mamobo on July 22, 2022, 11:19:41 am
------------------------
TricMagic - 1 - FallacyofUrist* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392938#msg8392938),
FallacyofUrist - 0 -
Lenglon - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 3 - Lenglon, Maximum Spin, TricMagic,
3 to Hammer. Day ends on July 24, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (~56 hours remaining).
Post by: TricMagic on July 22, 2022, 11:55:09 am
As mentioned before, my auto ability prevents my mafiakill abilities from killing.PfP againIf it kills at all, we can't trust what you say.
Also Bleed Out says it kills at the end of the Night, not the end of the next Day.
Didn’t expect the win condition change, gotta be honest. Still it’s good to know.
If we decide to no execute, I’m mugging Tric again. I doubt he has another roleblock bypass. That should confirm him as scum.
Only me or Tric can be mafia at this point. Lidku’s self vote means that he was unlikely to have been tutored in chat by an experienced player, which leaves me (insane) or Tric (inexperienced). Lenglon or Spin would never advocate a self vote.
Unfortunately if I’m executed and I’m town, there’s a 50 50 we lose, based on whether or not Spin hides versus who Tric chooses to kill. This also applies if Tric is executed and I’m the last mafia.
Ultimately the 50 50 is biased in Tric’s favor, since he may be able to pull an ability out of nowhere to let him break it.
Tric’s claimed role fits the power level shown by Lidku’s role much better than mine does. I have middle grade utility and that’s it. Tric has whatever he wants.
Anyways. I’ll stake my confidence on TricMagic being the last scum. I don’t believe anyone else would let Lidku self vote.
This is bad faith Fal. Then again, delaying things won't really work will it?
Also, put forward a case. I've been on Lidku from day 1. Constantly pointing out their misconstruction.
Post by: TricMagic on July 22, 2022, 11:56:03 am
Post by: TricMagic on July 22, 2022, 12:01:03 pm
Fallacy. I'm guessing you did get one of Max's abilities? Or inventions, as it were?
Post by: TricMagic on July 22, 2022, 12:01:54 pm
Post by: TricMagic on July 22, 2022, 12:03:06 pm
If it helps, I submitted the role... always scum.I'm... well, I guess it doesn't matter whether I believe this or not, since I don't have The Vote. If I hypothetically pretend I believe you, does this imply that "Mug" is a real mafiakill ability the mafia also have?Fortunately not. Well, probably not. Nothing about my role suggests I'm copying mafiakills. My mafiakills are my own mafiakills. Which is good because scum don't have them and bad because I don't have theft immunity.Oh right, I guess I should be fair and actually answer your question, at least for the sake of other people.This... is a reasonable enough justification.This seemed like a vote for the sake of voting, not for the sake of eliminating scum. Where was the justification?I thought Egan was more likely than you to be scum, based on my understanding of your behavior. Obviously this turned out to be wrong.
I do have a habit of placing votes in these kinds of ways, sometimes acting like it's a joke, or often offering to "go along with" someone else, but, as I've said before, I promise I only place votes when I mean them. In this case, for example, I put it like that because NJW2000 had been pushing for a vote on you the whole time, but then said that as if he was open to either, so I wanted to see how far he meant it.
Ugh, and I was so sure you were scum, too. Using the crane thing to hide while you chose someone to mafiakill, sure nobody could detect you due to being untargetable. I can't really make that argument at this point, though.
You get a promotion to likely town in my readometer. Unfortunately.
This is fundamentally flawed Fal. Can you tell me how? Which part tells the lie?
Post by: TricMagic on July 22, 2022, 12:10:16 pm
Lidku - you mentioned yesterday that you find it easier to engage in the more mechanical analysis part of the game, I'd like to hear your input in what you think happened last night between Max and FoU, and I'd also like to hear what you think of people's actions near the end of day yesterday, now that we know that Egan was town. From what you were saying before, this should be right up your alley.
I find FallacyofUrist very suspicious at the moment, for the fact that he was able to target someone who the Town apparently wasn't allowed to target. Also, FallacyofUrist outright admits to being able to use abilities on Maximum Spin, along with dubious claims that he has "Mafiakill" but it doesn't actually let him kill at all. Maybe he's lying and he was blocked by someone?
But I also find it strange on the reasons HOW Maximum Spin got to be able to not be targetable at all.. it's really odd.. Did someone target him that way, just so he could even look more suspicious, considering the fact on how much you suspected him as scum in the beginning? Isolate him? I'm generally not sure.
As for everyone else, I cannot be sure until everyone begins posting what they have done during the Night. I myself just did nothing last night, as I felt I had no good options to do anything with my abilities that time.
... What the fresh fish is this Lidku... All your other posts are fairly strange, but looking at this one it's well put together.
Lidku never actually voted day 2.. well, other than this.
Nin. To answer Lidku's old question (which one exactly? Because you didn't bother to quote it when directly asked (your strange possible Knightwing+NJW link)).. Well, I don't have an answer to give you, given that you seem to miss stuff like the misconstruction of my own posts.
Just as I thought. Making blank statements that have no real weight toward them, then when probed on what exactly you mean by them, you just either ignore or scuffle up a light excuse to avoid outright answering. TricMagic is just really acting weird this game.
in the last BYOR game doing that is what almost led to a Town victory; the Town in that game only lost when I fell for the manipulations of Jim Groovester and believed that mechanically solving was useless.. when the whole time he was deceiving me otherwise.
I just consider mechanically solving and figuring out who did what on D2 and building off of that to be the most effective.
As I recall the opposite happened, you suspected Jim based on your intuition and his behavior, but were fooled by Jim being a Godfather who inspects as town, and he used that to gaslight you. You should have paid attention to your gut, rather than trusting the mechanics.
That was only because due to me being a Noob, I didn't even know about Godfather or what the role did. If I knew about it in a prior instance, I would have lied and said that my Inpsect on him had read as Mafia anyway: the tactic being that "damned if I'm wrong, but good if I'm right" type of situation. Mechanics in that game was how Town even came somewhat close to victory.
Anyways, since I'm being pressured to vote, I'll put one on FallacyofUrist. I just find him kinda shady, but nothing truly strong..
One question, well another. Fal, why did you vote Egan 3 times during Day 1?
... Has Fal ever given a readlist this game?
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 22, 2022, 12:43:21 pm
Fallacy. I'm guessing you did get one of Max's abilities? Or inventions, as it were?For the record, we have both already confirmed that, and I told you what it was. This probably won't get you very far as a line of inquiry.
It's also nothing alignment-indicative for any of us, unfortunately.
Tric, I don't know if I trust the way you suddenly developed a self-preservation instinct, but I can agree with no-lynching today if it's the only way to be sure.
Post by: TricMagic on July 22, 2022, 01:16:34 pm
10:50 PM for me here, so bit late.TricMagic, you don't seem to have said one way or the other actually, so can you clarify whether you did anything last night?
Nope. The lynch Tric plan doesn't actually work given mafia just needs to equal or outnumber town. So..
TricMagic> Syncth Dragon Cloak for Lenglon
Fal>Mug TricMagic
Max>Watch Tricmagic
Lenglon=Townie
This should prove Fal the killer, correct? Either you or I die. Or that Bleed effect Fal has kills at end of day... But that still means we'd just need to pick someone.
Well, that or I survive due to this Bleed action being more delayed than is mentioned. If Fal is town, they would Mug me, preventing me from killing. Max can't self-kill, so they can't be the kill if Max is Mafia. So if Max dies, it's Fal, once again barring me lying through my teeth.
Most likely I die and Lenglon has to choose between two. This is kinda saying Max is town since it's reliant on them not killing me and claiming Fal targeted me. But night actions can probably solve that.
Not fine with Fal deciding I'm to be lynched though. What's wrong with this plan? Is it that your mugging does kill?
... Main issue is it doesn't advance the game state if they don't have a mafiakill, or their Bleeding kill is one that kills at end of day rather than night. As is, I'm fine with No Lynch so long as the above is followed. Since Fal can't really get out of mugging me tonight, and if you die it removes any ambiguity on who it is. Meanwhile if I die, you know who killed me.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 22, 2022, 01:19:17 pm
I'm somewhat fine with no-lynching....I thought you were explicitly advocating for no-lynching, based on that previous post. If you're not, I'm still open to argument here.
Post by: TricMagic on July 22, 2022, 01:35:48 pm
Right now I see two paths. One is the above where we can see if Fal's Mug ability kills or not. The other is just voting out either you or Fal. Most likely Fal.
The main flaw in the post I asked Fal about is thus. Being untargatable does not protect you from Watchers. So the crane for the first night was specifically to kill you. Meanwhile Fal got picked up yesterday, preventing us from targeting him.
... This is a bit odd. It would make more sense to either target me or Lenglon. Spook isn't a confirmable roleblock, so it would set me up for the lynch tommorow. To top it off, Shakerag dies.
...... There is something odd in the autopsy report too. (https://youtu.be/cSrrv29CAuc)
QuoteShakerag
Role: The Beginner BYOR 2 Role That Won’t Ruin The Balance
Alignment: Town
Abilities:
{P5} (Used, Night) Bodyblock [target]: Whenever the target would be Killed by an Action, you are Killed instead. This Action lasts for the rest of the game and does nothing on non-Allied players.
Tags: Protect
{P10} (1-Shot, Night) Yawn [target]: The target is roleblocked during the following Night. The target is warned that they will be roleblocked.
Tags: Block
{P10} (1-Shot, Night) Obliterate [target]: Remove a random Ability from the target.
Tags: Remove
{P10} (Used, Night) Redouble [target]: Choose another Action you own. Give a 1-Shot copy of the Action to the target.
Tags: Gift
{P-1} (1-Shot, Night) 2 Times: Choose another Action you own that can be used and remove it from your role. Perform that Action twice, with separate targets and Choices for each Action.
Tags: Super
N1, Shakerag used Bodyblock. Night 2, Shakerag used Redouble. Night 3... See the issue? There is no Night 3 action. Using 2 Times would let them Obliterate 2 targets, me and Lenglon. Which would prove them to have not done a kill. Or to a lesser extant, Yawn, which would warn the targets they would be roleblocked the following night. Nor did they use them alone. Both would undeniably confirm their innocence.
... There is only one ability known to both roleblock, and kill. And that's Mug. Take That Fallacy!
Post by: Lenglon on July 22, 2022, 01:40:29 pm
1) Of the three of you, I'm fairly certain it's FoU, based on behavior.
2) IF the final scum is actually max, no-lynching doesn't help us. Max simply no-actions, claims his watch result was whatever he pleases to frame Tric or FoU, we mislynch, he kills, he wins.
3) IF the final scum is actually Tric, then following the plan Tric themselves proposed likely won't help, and in fact since in that scenario Tric already had to have killed through FoU's roleblock literally last night, we have every reason to think they can do that again.
4) IF the final scum is actually FoU, no-lynching does nothing for us as a result. We'll still be in the same WIFOM scenario, and all that will have changed is Max will be dead.
I could build and post a large case explaining why I think it's FoU, but there wouldn't be any actual questions in it, just pointing at specific actions and interactions throughout the game, and the only person I might be trying to convince with it is Max.
So where I'm standing I'd prefer to lynch FoU. and the reason I'm using FoS instead of a vote is to avoid there being potential for a quickhammer.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 22, 2022, 01:55:47 pm
I could build and post a large case explaining why I think it's FoU, but there wouldn't be any actual questions in it, just pointing at specific actions and interactions throughout the game, and the only person I might be trying to convince with it is Max.I think I already agree with you anyway. I already know that Tric sometimes says weird, vaguely suspicious things as town, just like Knightwing and I both said from the start, so even though he keeps pinging me in weird ways, your argument has been stronger.
Post by: Lenglon on July 22, 2022, 01:59:24 pm
FoU
Post by: TricMagic on July 22, 2022, 02:00:05 pm
Honestly I should stop structuring game plans around me dying. I never get killed.
Ninja Lenglon. K then.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 22, 2022, 02:06:10 pm
FallacyofUrist
Post by: webadict on July 22, 2022, 02:30:08 pm
"It is, naturally, only possible for you to be our rogue agent, Fallacy. You cannot talk your way out of this."
"Oh, but you are most mistaken," FallacyofUrist replies, hanging from the rafters. "You know that I am codename Always Scum for a reason. I may be the false flag operative's leading student, but that does not make me the one who murdered webadict or all the others. But, that is always to be my fate. webadict has once again cursed me."
"So you admit it," TricMagic under the codename Beginner Mafia: BYOR Edition (No one was entirely sure why, but many speculated it had much to do with familial relations within the organization.) "The punishment will be instant death if you merely admit as such."
"No more talk," Maximum Spin pipes up. "I'm afraid that this exercise is complete, is it not, Mother Hen? We have found our weak links."
Mother Hen opens the door. "Correct you are, Agent "Not Appearing in this Mafia Game"."
FallacyofUrist's mouth opens in protest. "This cannot be! I'm innocent! I'm being framed!" He protests the entire way into the next room.
Mother Hen sighs. "I used to think that there were no bad eggs in this world. Only bad mothers." She looks down in sorrow and turns away. "You may execute the other two."
Lenglon and TricMagic have a split second to react as their lives come to an abrupt and bitter end.
"How is Lidku?"
"Alive. Stable. He will require several months of recovery, and we'll need to cover the basics again, but he'll slip into the new batch just fine."
Maximum Spin nods in agreement. "Hopefully this group will graduate."
Vote Count
------------------------
FallacyofUrist - 3 - Lenglon* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392992#msg8392992), TricMagic* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392993#msg8392993), Maximum Spin* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392994#msg8392994),
TricMagic - 1 - FallacyofUrist* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180072.msg8392938#msg8392938),
Lenglon - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
No One - 0 -
Not Voting - 0 -
3 to Hammer. Day ends on July 24, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (~53 hours remaining).
FallacyofUrist has been executed.
FallacyofUrist was Always Scum (Town).
TricMagic dies during the Night.
TricMagic was Beginner Mafia: BYOR Edition (Town).
Game Over. Maximum Spin and Lidku (Mafia) have won.
Post by: webadict on July 22, 2022, 02:32:35 pm
Oops, and Mafiachat/Deadchat: https://discord.gg/hwhMwmYD
Post by: TricMagic on July 22, 2022, 02:32:57 pm
Post by: Lenglon on July 22, 2022, 02:33:25 pm
I still was going to get things wrong though, because my #2 pick was Tric, not Max, so well played to Max here.
Post by: TricMagic on July 22, 2022, 02:36:09 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 22, 2022, 02:37:23 pm
Dam it all. Really Max?I really did feel bad once or twice there. But that's the game.
And after all the shade I pulled d1, there's no way I wasn't going all-out. :P
Post by: webadict on July 22, 2022, 02:42:01 pm
That No Show is just evil, going off even if you're roleblocked.I take it as a point of pride that I out-evil myself with Abilities. That one was... Way too complicated in hindsight, but also a nice way to stop people from being super confirming with Roleblocks. It has some things that I'd need to change if I re-implemented it next time.
I think my favorite Ability this round was Embargo. I'll probably use another Action like it eventually. My least favorite was... Hmm, NJW2000's whole role had some underwhelming Abilities. I kinda knew that going in, but I was on the fence about how to fix it. Sorry, NJW!
Post by: webadict on July 22, 2022, 02:43:10 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on July 22, 2022, 02:47:28 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on July 22, 2022, 02:48:08 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 22, 2022, 02:50:06 pm
Nice job Max. I would have hammered Tric, and didn't even suspect you.That reminds me, I need to get back on Meph's discord to see your reflections.
Post by: webadict on July 22, 2022, 02:56:55 pm
Also, anyone think that the Mamobo tools were useful or beneficial? I'm trying to improve them still, so we'll see how that goes.
Post by: Roden on July 22, 2022, 02:59:16 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 22, 2022, 03:04:03 pm
In advance: my auto had a third clause that turned on the killing part of my mafiakills, if the mafia chose not to kill or were blocked from killing. If I ever claimed that, they’d use me to do their dirty work, so. I just opted to never claim and hope I didn’t get town killed. I was tempted to not act Night 1.
Good game. Didn’t see Max coming, for the most part.
Post by: Egan_BW on July 22, 2022, 03:06:19 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on July 22, 2022, 03:08:10 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 22, 2022, 03:08:41 pm
Lidku's role was pretty good too. I think we made great use of the crane, and I agree that it was a really cool power. It's a shame he never got to buy anything, but it's okay.
I loved that I got towncred n1 for A) being made unactionable by town (ie, uninvestigable) and B) being roleblocked during a no-kill.
Post by: Lenglon on July 22, 2022, 03:12:02 pm
I'm still annoyed at myself for not realizeing that my N1 inspect was faster than Saibamen, and that as a result FoU was town. we could have won off of that.
also, I REALLY hated being given the crown D2. It reminded me of a really unplesant experience I've had in the past. Also, so far in cluch "Lenglon has full power and can game-determine if she just makes the right call" situations, I'm 0/4. I really hate that.
Post by: Lidku on July 22, 2022, 03:14:19 pm
I loved my role. Commuting is kind of my favorite thing, and this kind of thing is exactly what I was hoping for with my role submission.
Lidku's role was pretty good too. I think we made great use of the crane, and I agree that it was a really cool power. It's a shame he never got to buy anything, but it's okay.
I loved that I got towncred n1 for A) being made unactionable by town (ie, uninvestigable) and B) being roleblocked during a no-kill.
I did in fact bought Saibamen, but it was indirectly interrupted by Fallacy when he tried to Mug you, but didn't work since the crane effect was still on you.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 22, 2022, 03:15:29 pm
I'm still annoyed at myself for not realizeing that my N1 inspect was faster than Saibamen, and that as a result FoU was town. we could have won off of that.Probably not. If you would have then voted Tric, he would've voted someone else, and if it wasn't me, I'd be tying the vote. This way was a lot easier for me, though.
I did in fact bought Saibamen, but it was indirectly interrupted by Fallacy when he tried to Mug you, but didn't work since the crane effect was still on you.I remember, yes. Since I was untargetable, the action failed and we didn't actually GET it, though, which was my point.
Still, the crane ended up being much more important.
Post by: webadict on July 22, 2022, 03:25:52 pm
also, I REALLY hated being given the crown D2. It reminded me of a really unplesant experience I've had in the past. Also, so far in cluch "Lenglon has full power and can game-determine if she just makes the right call" situations, I'm 0/4. I really hate that.Ah, yes, the Ruler power was a mistake and will be removed from future games, for multiple reasons. I was stuck on something that would make Knightwing's role feel unique, and... Well, I wanted to try it out again. Total noob mod move.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 22, 2022, 03:27:45 pm
Ah, yes, the Ruler power was a mistake and will be removed from future games, for multiple reasons. I was stuck on something that would make Knightwing's role feel unique, and... Well, I wanted to try it out again. Total noob mod move.I'm glad to hear it. I absolutely hate not having a vote, because I feel like I might as well not be there.
In this case, it gave me an excuse to kind of check out that day and not really hunt effectively, but if I had been town, it would've sucked.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 22, 2022, 03:33:58 pm
I feel like my performance on the last Day wasn’t that good, but y’all did end before I got out of work.
Post by: webadict on July 22, 2022, 03:39:16 pm
Ah. Turns out I only had the potential to kill one half of the mafia, so what I thought was my strongest effect (Mugging the mafia-killer and then killing them) was actually not that good. Welp.You had the way to effectively stall the game forever if you had Mugged Max! Max could never kill and you could never kill him!
I feel like my performance on the last Day wasn’t that good, but y’all did end before I got out of work.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 22, 2022, 03:51:04 pm
Still a good game overall. I got some good practice in hunting town.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 22, 2022, 03:57:32 pm
I’m comparing that in utility level to literally every other town player and coming up short. Aside from Knightwing, who kinda got a raw deal too.I think you're underselling yourself. If I hadn't done the self-embargo trick, which was a pretty risky and clever play in my opinion, then you would've had me d2. You roleblocked me on a no-kill night.
Still a good game overall. I got some good practice in hunting town.
The fact that I talked myself out of it doesn't mean your role was any less effective, I think.
Post by: webadict on July 22, 2022, 03:59:53 pm
I’m comparing that in utility level to literally every other town player and coming up short. Aside from Knightwing, who kinda got a raw deal too.Yes, but you'd assumedly be using these Abilities on people you suspect. The watch/target combined just requires figuring things out, plus being able to target within the Embargo means you could see if anyone targeted your target... Ya know, because only Mafia can!
Still a good game overall. I got some good practice in hunting town.
I think your role was more niche than weak. It had things it could do well, but it was scary to use them.
Knightwing's role was an unfortunate accident because I had a stupid Ability before I had to change it that isn't worth explaining. This incarnation was better for everyone, and yes, that does include the Ruler power, so that should explain enough.
Post by: Lenglon on July 22, 2022, 04:15:06 pm
Also, you guys should consider joining Demon Mafia so that can start!I need a cooling off period between games. My preferred D1 style is really energy-draining and I don't think I can do it for back-to-back games.
Post by: Shakerag on July 22, 2022, 04:31:00 pm
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 22, 2022, 05:13:19 pm
Post by: Shakerag on July 22, 2022, 05:38:17 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on July 22, 2022, 05:49:01 pm
FallacyofUrist has been executed.
FallacyofUrist was Always Scum (Town).
But...how?
Post by: webadict on July 22, 2022, 06:03:06 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 22, 2022, 06:10:47 pm
Luck was against Fallacy in the alignment department!The narrative force of irony 'Always Scum being Town' was greater than the narrative force of 'Fallacy is always scum'
Post by: Shakerag on July 22, 2022, 06:20:14 pm
Post by: webadict on July 22, 2022, 06:27:35 pm
Webadict, for curiosity's sake, how exactly did you invision my role playing out?Uh... I just gave it a bunch of Abilities that were kinda weaker than average, but had the potential to be strong if things worked out. I didn't really think about anything other than your Abilities spelled out BYOR2.
Post by: Maximum Spin on July 22, 2022, 08:30:38 pm
Once Lidku flipped I guess none of us considered he would have been bold enough to crane his scumbuddy first, huh?Fallacy should've known, he's been scum with me before. :P
Post by: Knightwing64 on July 22, 2022, 08:36:22 pm
nice little Romeo and Juliet quote for smart people like me
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 23, 2022, 02:43:26 am
You assume I know how to play town.Once Lidku flipped I guess none of us considered he would have been bold enough to crane his scumbuddy first, huh?Fallacy should've known, he's been scum with me before. :P
This was my first town game in forever. I doubt I'll be town again unless I submit a similarly ironic role next time, unfortunately.
Which isn't how probability is supposed to work, but you know, this is the first time I've been town in a webadict game in years, so I think I'm allowed to say that probability is biased against me being town.
To be honest I just mentally discarded the possibility of you being scum after Day 2.