Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF General Discussion => Topic started by: joaodosgrao on December 10, 2017, 04:51:51 pm
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Just wondering...
How complicated would it be, coding-wise, to fix the issues with bins?
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ptw
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In a related note. Is it possible to edit bins out of the game? I have searched the "raw text files" but have not found them :/
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In a related note. Is it possible to edit bins out of the game? I have searched the "raw text files" but have not found them :/
They're hardcoded, but I think you can remove the dorfs' access to them in the entity_default.txt raw file.
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I don't see why you'd need to mod them out when you could just not use them at all?
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Just wondering...
How complicated would it be, coding-wise, to fix the issues with bins?
If you actually want an answer to that, you need to ask the one single person who actually codes the game. No point asking on a forum unless you're just looking for random 'yeah, seems simple' or 'yeah, dfhack can bypass that behavior. Kind of.' answers.
The estimated time to fix a bug when actually attempting to fix it is irrelevant though as bugs aren't usually prioritised for fixing unless they're linked to the part of the game which is actually being worked on at the time. So the answer is likely '5 minutes to 30 years'.
If you're lucky it might suddenly get looked at during a bug fixing phase, like the one we're in right now. Although it's not been mentioned so far (as opposed to other important parts of fortress mode like stress and morale).
The only thing anyone can say is that bugs are not an intended part of the game plans (not sure why people still think they are). So the answer to 'will bins ever be fixed' is yes.
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It might be nice... for consistency sake, to actually summarize the issue you are referring to with bins. I am sure it is documented elsewhere in the forums but it seems slightly impolite to begin a conversation assuming everyone knows what you are speaking about.
For instance... I am not aware of any current issue with bins. I know there used to be an issue with barrels that seems resolved and I am sure this is referring to something else.
In my current game bins appear to be working fine. They store lots of bars of metal and fuel for the fires of my smelters. The hammers continually ring in the bowels of my fort even as the goblins stream into the gates to die in my weapon traps and under my murder holes.
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Yeah, I have to agree. Honestly, you've been complaining about bins quite a bit without actually elaborating what your problem with them is.
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I remember several years ago the issue with bins was that most of the time the dwarves would never go look for the items that they dropped in bins.
So when you had a marksdwarves squad, once they were out of ammo, very high chance that not a single of them would go refill their ammo despite the thousands of bolts you had in the ammo stockpile , because you had all of them in bins.
The advice and only solution at the time was "never use bins in stockpiles" , that i applied since then and never ever used bins for anything after that, disallowing them in stockpiles. Better have bolts on the ground so the dwarves would pick them up instead of bolt in bins dwarves would ignore completely.
As in 42.x it wasn't fixed as people were still reporting about this, no idea if it has been solved in 44.x as it's been years i have ceased to use any bins in stockpile, but if i look at the bug reports it's "acknowledged", not fixed
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8755
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Bins are still buggy, but there are a few separate issues:
1. Worst of all, items stored in bins sometimes get 'lost', where they still show up in the stocks screen, but dwarves will never go get them. This is most noticable on stockpiles where things get added and removed a lot, like a bolt stockpile or a gem stockpile.
With this issue, eventually you end up with stockpiles full of bins full of bolts/gems, while the gemcrafters cancel jobs saying they have no gems, and the marksdwarves have no bolts. Dumping/reclaiming works to fix this, but is hugely time consuming and impractical. I have stopped using bins in these types of stockpiles for that reason.
2. Less horrible, but still annoying, if a dwarf is bringing an item to a bin, no other item in that bin can be used until that dwarf is done. Same deal if a dwarf is going to take an item from a bin, the bin is then locked until he's done.
3. Just kinda weird, dwarves like to carry heavy bins to light items (like a shirt outside for example), put the item in the bin, then drag the bin back to the stockpile. I don't know if this is still even a thing.
4. Annoying, but probably not really a bug, dwarves will never remove an item from a bin to store it in a stockpile. So if I have a stockpile that takes bins, and accepts bolts, I will have a stockpile of bolts in bins. If I then make another stockpile that takes bolts, but disallows bins, and tell it to take from the first stockpile, it will NOT take bolts from the bins and put them in the binless stockpile. Furthermore, if I then disallow bolts in the first stockpile, the bins will still sit there full of bolts, in a stockpile where they're not even allowed.
Item 1 is the worst, not having access to your bolts when you need them can kill you.
Item 2 is the cause of much cancellation spam, and I suspect somehow the underlying logic is what gets items 'lost'.
Item 4 prevents a simple workaround that would allow us to have small stockpiles without bins pull from large stockpiles with bins, which would then directly feed workshops, preventing the job cancellation spam from item 3.
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Thank you Damiac!
You have spared me the time for numbering the obvious bin flaws for the people ignorant of this issue :)
And, yes, I pretty much agree with your statements.
Items get lost/unusable because of them too often.
As for #3 issue, it IS still a thing. Sucks big time.
Pointing a flaw within the game is nothing out of the ordinary. The "impoliteness" lies in the eye of the beholder.
If I offended any rose-tinted glass wearing players, I'm sorry.
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Um, back off the offense train there, buddy. They weren't offended about your complaints, they were annoyed that you didn't explain them. Which is valid. From now on, don't just drop a one sentence opener on a thread and expect good results. I've seen threads like that get locked on other sites before. Explain things so everybody knows what page you're on.
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Being called out as impolite for mentioning obvious flaws without numbering them seems weird.
That's why I assumed the possibility of people being offended.
If there was no offense, great, we can stick to the subject :)
Btw, Damiac has done a great job numbering them. And I pretty much agree with all his points, couldn't have done better myself.
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I don't play very often, so I don't remember if I've run into these issues. I think some of them, but not all.
ETA: Also, that anti-offense apology sucked because you insulted people at the same time you apologized. If you were trying to disarm the offense, you honestly made it grow by saying anyone was wearing rose-tinted glasses.
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I assumed one would have to wear rose tinted glasses to feel offended by my obvious non-offenseful statement.
Unless the shoe serves, I also assume no one will feel targeted by the rose-tinted glass addendum.
Thus, the point is moot.
Either way, let's stay on topic.
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I believe joaodosgrao does not speak english as his first language, so perhaps we should just chalk up any perceived abrasiveness to an unintended issue of language, and assume good faith.
It is a good idea to make sure we're all on the same page regarding the current status of bins and the various bugs. Anyone else experience the bugs I listed, or know of a good workaround? Sometimes a bunch of people ignorant of the workings of a piece of code can still have useful insights, in fact, the outside perspective lets you see things the person who designed it might not even notice.
Like I said, I just don't use bins in bolt and gem stockpiles, and I just bear the cancellation spam, and I don't seem to run into any huge issues. But I know there's probably items in all my bin using stockpiles that are stuck in an unusable state, and it would be nice to get that bug fixed.
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2. this happens with barrels and is equally annoying
3. I think in general this is a problem with stockpiles in general, it happens with barrels too (why seed stockpiles shouldn't have barrels) so I think the stockpile system needs to be reworked at some point (I think toady said he was going to rework stockpiles when workshops become zones)
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Yeah, I would guess any issues with bins also exist with barrels and pots, it's just that you use a lot more bins than you use barrels, so you see it more with bins.
I would also guess the reason stockpiles won't do anything with items in bins is that otherwise your haulers would spend half their time moving stuff around between bins. I think there just needs to be an exception to this when the bin containing stockpile is set to give to another stockpile, so that items in bins can be properly distributed into separate stockpiles.
(For an example of what I'm talking about, create an ammo stockpile that takes bins. Make bolts and bins. Once you have a bin with bolts in it in that stockpile, create a second ammo stockpile, with no bins allowed. Set the first stockpile to give to the second stockpile. Observe as no bolts are taken from bins and moved to the second stockpile.
Now disable bolts in your first ammo stockpile. Now you have a stockpile full of bins full of bolts, which it is not set to accept, while you have another stockpile happy to take the bolts, just no bins. Again, observe as no bolts are moved from the stockpile that does not allow them to the stockpile that does.
Now go ahead and just delete the first stockpile entirely. You now have bins full of bolts just sitting on the floor. You have a stockpile that wants those bolts, but not the bins. Again, observe as the bins sit on the floor with no bolts being moved to the appropriate stockpile.)
The only way to get those bolts out is for your bolt users to take them out, or for you to dump them.
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...but it seems slightly impolite to begin a conversation assuming everyone knows what you are speaking about...
So change "impolite" to "impracticable" or "inconvenient" or "ineffective". My core point was that I felt like I have walked in on the middle of an ongoing conversation that I could not discover reference to. And the worst part was it sounded like a conversation I would be interested in.
I have seen these listed flaws so infrequently that they have not affected me. This is probably due to game style.
My dwarfs hoard their gems, and so my gem stockpiles behind the leaders official chambers only receive but never give their glory.
Traps do most of the heavy lifting and arrows are in such abundance that I have never noticed an issue.
Hauling kills my forts FPS for a multitude of parallel and simultaneous reasons as my dwarfs harvest all the goblin spoils at the bottom of my weapon trap pits. If part of that is heavy bins to light items instead of vice versa then that is good to know and try to plan around.
Thanks for the list... these are things I am now aware of and will watch for in the future.
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Sorry if I came by as rude.
Definitely wasn't my intention.
That said, I imagined most would be aware of it since that's a big issue with gem setting and highly active textile industry. Mea culpa.
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And I'm sorry that I sounded angry. I should have realized by the name that you weren't a native English speaker. It sounded like an insult to an American, but I can see now that it wasn't meant that way.
These bugs have already been acknowledged, they just haven't been dealt with yet. As others have said, no ETA has been given.
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(For an example of what I'm talking about, create an ammo stockpile that takes bins. Make bolts and bins. Once you have a bin with bolts in it in that stockpile, create a second ammo stockpile, with no bins allowed. Set the first stockpile to give to the second stockpile. Observe as no bolts are taken from bins and moved to the second stockpile.
Also observe as any bolts placed in the second stockpile are brought to the first and binned.
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With the use of dfhack does anyone have a tip on how force stuff out of a bin?
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With the use of dfhack does anyone have a tip on how force stuff out of a bin?
You can just designate the items for dumping, then exclude the bin. The "autodump" command can be used to skip the hauling, but beware that it moves every dump-designated item in the fort to the cursor.
Artifacts can now be forced out by putting them up for display using the appropriate furniture.
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Being called out as impolite for mentioning obvious flaws without numbering them seems weird.
That's why I assumed the possibility of people being offended.
If there was no offense, great, we can stick to the subject :)
Btw, Damiac has done a great job numbering them. And I pretty much agree with all his points, couldn't have done better myself.
You didn't even name the flaws at all, you just stated that there were flaws. but i was not angry, but maybe baffled or intrigued what the problem would be, awaiting you to explain it. as
and someone explaining why it was strange behaviour is not an assault, but a way to improve the overall communication here on the forums.
I saw problems with stockpiles, but couldn't actually find out what caused them and that they had to do with bins malfunctioning. So they aren't as obvious as you think. i always used feeder stockpiles and lots of bins and never read anything at all about bins malfuntioning in the forums.
So thanks for bringing up this topic, as i was absolutely unaware.
and thanks damian, i now see what i have to change for a successful fort.
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I assumed one would have to wear rose tinted glasses to feel offended by my obvious non-offenseful statement.
Unless the shoe serves, I also assume no one will feel targeted by the rose-tinted glass addendum.
Thus, the point is moot.
Either way, let's stay on topic.
Dude, chill. You were rightly called out for providing no elaboration on a vague complaint.
You're passive aggresive defensive posts after that don't help to see you as more polite.
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Dude, chill. You were rightly called out for providing no elaboration on a vague complaint.
You're passive aggresive defensive posts after that don't help to see you as more polite.
::)
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Are you kidding me? We JUST resolved this misunderstanding.
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IDRC if you think I'm polite or not.
Stop derailing
The topic was on the rails again only to have a nobody show up lecturing. Figures.
Let's stick to the subject?
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IDRC if you think I'm polite or not.
Stop derailing
The topic was on the rails again only to have a nobody show up lecturing. Figures.
Let's stick to the subject?
Calling someone a "nobody" isn't polite either. You'd be well advised to read this post: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=27009
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This part?
If the creator of a thread gives appropriate additional guidelines for an individual thread, please try to respect them. Threads often drift away from their opening themes here, and there isn't a strong sense of thread "ownership", so there's a gray area, but if a thread has been designed for a specific purpose, please try to adhere to that, especially if the creator urges you to do so. Do not derail threads.
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i wanted them to find it out themselves, but it's this part:
Do not pick a fight or insult another poster. Do not continue a fight if you feel you have been insulted. Report it to the moderator. If you instead respond in kind, you run the risk of being considered part of the problem.
Despite its prevalence on the internet, bigoted language is frowned upon here. Do not go there.
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This part?
If the creator of a thread gives appropriate additional guidelines for an individual thread, please try to respect them. Threads often drift away from their opening themes here, and there isn't a strong sense of thread "ownership", so there's a gray area, but if a thread has been designed for a specific purpose, please try to adhere to that, especially if the creator urges you to do so. Do not derail threads.
Too bad you missed this part, Pvt. Pirate.
So much for lecturing people, huh. Another nobody.
Hypocritical cherrypicking at its best.
Ok, I'm impolite, yadda yadda, IDC, stick to topic.
I already apologized for the misunderstanding ONCE, I won't do it again.
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Well, I'm in my first 44.x fort and have put lots of bins to work, including for ammo, my hunters ARE grabbing bolts out of bins and my mechanic is grabbing arrows from bins to load the bows with in the weapon traps. I DO get a no ammo message when the hunter shoots off the last bolt and when the mechanic loads the last arrow, however I had no other ammo related jobs active at the time, so this spam may not be related to the bins being locked.
I have NOT created a gems stockpile as of yet, though with some 200 cut gems in my workshop means I will need to do *something*. I will likely create a 1 square dump zone 1 square away and have everything dumped to the spot.
I have not seen any bins getting used to haul yet. (I have not had any large piles of clothes, all except one death in the fort was due to dragon fire, and there was nothing left to haul).
Tested and working: Mechanics and hunters pulling bolts and arrows from bins.
Untested: Crossbow squad pulling ammo from bins.
Untested: Job cancellation spam.
Untested: Haulers carrying bins to pick up 1 sock.
I have seen the wheelbarrow getting used to pick up multiple food items when doing a mass (p) gathering. Untested on finished goods.
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Yes. Bins are not broken. But they do intermittently stop working. If they were just "broken" it'd be simple to fix them.
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Well, I'm in my first 44.x fort and have put lots of bins to work, including for ammo, my hunters ARE grabbing bolts out of bins and my mechanic is grabbing arrows from bins to load the bows with in the weapon traps. I DO get a no ammo message when the hunter shoots off the last bolt and when the mechanic loads the last arrow, however I had no other ammo related jobs active at the time, so this spam may not be related to the bins being locked.
The issue manifests as equipment mismatch spam.