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Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: Sphalerite on January 23, 2011, 04:56:25 pm

Title: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on January 23, 2011, 04:56:25 pm
Back in the later days of version 40d, there was talk of the farming of Mermaids.  Mermaids had an absurdly high value modifier, and although they couldn’t be butchered for meat their bones could be used for crafting.  You had to kill the mermaid by air-drowning, since butchering them was forbidden, then wait for its body to rot to bones.  Several people started working out techniques for capturing mermaids, and since wild animals could breed in 40d, breeding them in captivity.  I don’t know if anyone ever actually built a functioning mermaid farm, despite all the talk.  I had a handful captured and living in captivity in a late 40d fortress, but abandoned the project when DF2010 came out.

In DF2010, the rules have changed.  Breeding is restricted to domestic creatures - those with [PET], [PET_EXOTIC], or [MOUNT_EXOTIC] tags.  Wild versions of those animals will breed, but completely wild, non-domestic animals, including mermaids, never breed in DF2010.  Dead animals now rot to a skeleton rather than directly to a pile of bones, and the prohibition against butchering sentienst also applies to processing their skeletons into bones.  And finally, mermaids had their value modifier removed, making their bones no more valuable than cow bones.  I really have to wonder if that last change was Toady’s intentional response to the idea of mermaid bone harvesting.

With mermaid farming impossible and worthless anyway, where do I turn for expensive and exotic animal breeding experiments?  Elephants look very good as a candidate.  They have a value multiplier of 5, higher than nearly any other creature.  Only hydra and dragons are more valuable, and those are both rare non-reproducible megabeasts.  Even the rare and valuable unicorn only has a value multiplier of 4!  Elephants are also huge, eight times the size of cows, and can be trained into war animals.  And though they aren’t always available, when they are they come in huge numbers.

But although they are a huge winner in every practical way, elephants are boring.  They’re too easy.  I wanted to try farming something exotic and valuable, and preferably aquatic.  Sea serpents fit that role.  They have the same 5 times value modifier as elephants, are nearly twice as large, and reach breeding age in half the time.  More importantly, they’re aquatic and extremely rare, making the project pointlessly difficult and requiring greatly overcomplicated means to set up a working farm.

The one piece of unavoidable modding I had to do for this project was to change sea serpents from [PET_EXOTIC] to [PET] to work around the bugged Dungeon Master.

Finding sea serpents in the wild:

Sea Serpents exist in any savage ocean.  They have a maximum population number of 1, which would seem to put a major damper on getting a breeding population going.  I determined with some experiments that this is a per-biome restriction, and if you embark on a site on the boundary between two biomes you can get the populations of both.  After a lot of searching I was able to find an embark site which included enough of two different savage ocean biomes, as well as a reasonable land embark site.

One odd effect of this embark site was that diplomats and caravans would sometimes spawn on a line going through the middle of the map.  It may be that I created an embark site that was on the edge of some world region boundary, and the region edge was counting as a valid edge tile for unit spawns.  It may also have been the case that having an embark site that was across two regions was why I was able to get two sea serpents.  I eventually built a wall of statues across my map, placing one every time a unit spawned in the middle of the map, to block this.

Creatures don’t seem to spawn from sea biomes with the same frequency as land biomes.  In any embark site there are a limit on the number of groups of animals which can be on the map at once.  For some reason, the game greatly preferred to present me with land animals.  I would hardly ever see any creatures in the sea, far more often I’d have a few groundhogs or something equally useless on the land instead.  Rather than spending years exterminating the land life, I built single tile raising bridges all around the edge of the map and raised them to make map-edge walls.  With no available surface tiles to spawn on, only ocean creatures spawned.  Oddly, land animals did not spawn in the middle of the map - that strange behavior only seemed present for civilized visitors.

Harvesting the ocean’s bounty:

My initial plan was to set up a scheme where I could drain the entire ocean through a sieve of cage traps into an infinite map-edge drain, with sea creatures being helplessly pulled along by the current into the traps.  To accomplish this I hollowed out a chamber under a flat spot of ocean floor. I surrounded the hollowed rectangle with raised drawbridges to block out the ocean, then dug a large tunnel lined with cage traps leading to a drain to the edge of the map.  I then punched through the ocean floor from above by dropping an artificial floor.  When the bridges were lowered, the entire ocean would drain through the cage-trapped passage.  Once creatures had been trapped, I could raise the bridges to stop the ocean and allow the cages to be safely retrieved.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This did not work nearly as well as I hoped.  Fluid flow in DF is a strange approximation and doesn’t work the way you would expect it to.  When I opened my ocean-floor drain the ocean turned into a strange funnel of water, with stubborn little 7/7 deep pockets scattered all over the place.  The water was not at all reliable at pushing creatures into my trap, often leaving them to air-drown on the ocean floor instead, and any creature that made it into 7/7 deep water would stubbornly remain there, refusing to move into flowing water.  I had to repeatedly open and close the drain to get creatures unstuck, and was more likely to air-drown my quarry or crush them in the drawbridge doors than catch them.

Air-drowning was fine for whales and other bycatch, but I had at most two sea serpents in the wild, and couldn’t afford to kill either of them if I wanted a breeding pair.  I realized that instead of forcing my quarry into traps, I had to build traps that they would wander into voluntarily, and that I could then isolate and pump dry for cage retrieval.

The first thing I did was add a second drawbridge to my ocean drain sieve, located between the trap corridor and the map edge drain.  I would raise that, then open the corridor to the ocean, flooding the trap corridor.  Sea creatures would wander in and get caught in the traps.  I’d then seal the corridor off from the ocean, open the drain, and once the water had drained out the cages could be retrieved and the traps reloaded.

This worked better, but relied on sea creatures wandering into the trap corridor on their own, something they rarely did.

My second plan was to take advantage of my ability to drain and fill the ocean on command to build a submerged platform covered with cage traps.  I opened my ocean drain and had the dwarves make a constructed floor just under the normal surface level of the ocean, in an area I’d seen ocean creatures swimming across often.  I built raising drawbridges all around the platform edges to seal it off from the ocean, and multiple windmill-powered pumps on top to pump the water out when the bridges were raised.  I covered the entire interior surface with cage traps.  Now with the bridges lowered, ocean creatures could swim freely across the platform and get caught, and once a fair amount of cages were filled I’d raise the bridges and activate the pumps, letting my dwarves go in and claim the catch.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This method could catch sea creatures a lot more quickly, since the traps were placed where they often went on their own.  It was a lot more difficult, and dangerous, to build than the under-sea trapped corridor.  The platform was in the path of ocean waves, and when the drawbridge walls were raised waves would constantly crash over them and dump water onto the platform.  A whole row of pumps had to run nonstop to keep the water out, and even so the construction of the traps were constantly being suspended due to water.  A few dwarves died during the construction, either knocked off by waves or standing in the wrong place at the wrong time, and either drowning or falling to their death onto the drained ocean floor.  Still, it caught a lot of sea life.

My third plan was based on observing that sea creatures often run right along to coastline for a while, not an unexpected result of their random wandering movement code.  I dug a long canal three tiles wide parallel to the beach.  The entire side of the canal closest to the water I blocked with raising drawbridges, and the rest I filled with cage traps.  I built a few pumps on top, powered by windmill, to drain water from the canal and put it back into the ocean.  Then I channeled out the remaining land between the canal and the ocean.  The end effect was to have a coast completely lined with cage traps, with a drawbridge barrier I could raise to let me pump the cage trap area dry.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This was my most effective and simplest to build sea creature trap.  No dwarves died in the making of it, it was easy to build and maintain, didn’t require building an elevated platform over the ocean or punching holes in the ocean floor, and yet it caught more sea creatures than the other designs.  If I was to do this again I’d just built this trap design from the start and not bother with the others.

Between the three different trap systems I’d built I eventually caught two sea serpents, male and female.  I also caught dozens of swordfish, marlin, sunfish,  halibut, and eel, half a dozen different kinds of sharks, and entire schools of whales, cod, tuna, and bluefish.  Hundreds of creatures in all, which I piled up a big ‘bycatch’ stockpile.  As far as I can tell, none of them will reproduce, as they all lack the [PET] tag.  It’s been mildly amusing to stick cages with whales and great white sharks and such around the fortress, but there’s not much else I can do other than air-drown and slaughter them.

One interesting thing I did learn is that creatures in cages still age.  All of these mundane wild animals have maximum lifespans, and all of them were created somewhere in the middle of their lives.  As the years have gone by, they’ve been gradually dying of old age.  When a wild animal in a cage in a stockpile dies of old age, a dwarf will pick up the cage and take it to the butcher’s shop to butcher the corpse.  An animal in a built cage won’t be taken to the butcher’s shop, but the cage will somehow keep the corpse preserved and not rotten until you notice and deconstruct the cage.  As the bycatch has been gradually dying of old age, I’ve been getting a steady supply of meat and other butchering products, to the point where I have a ridiculous oversupply of shark and whale and such meat filling my stockpiles.  I’m giving the dwarven caravan hundreds of thousands of dwarfbucks of profit in exotic meat roasts every year.

Next: breeding the sea serpents!
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Girlinhat on January 23, 2011, 05:12:55 pm
...let me get this straight.

You first blockaded your entire landmass, planting statues along the edging to prevent any wildlife from entering, disrupting the migration habits and breeding of local terrestrial creatures, as well as probably annoying caravans to no end.

Then, you drained the ocean so that you could attempt to catch TWO animals only, with supermassive whales and sharks as a mere byproduct and entire freestanding structures in the middle of the ocean being mere attempts.  And after all this, you're still capable of draining the entire ocean at will.

Now, do it again.  Except add [AMPHIBIOUS] and [TRAP_AVOID] to the serpents!
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on January 23, 2011, 05:14:06 pm
Incredibly dwarfy.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on January 23, 2011, 06:22:28 pm
Now I’ve got two sea serpents, a male and female.  I decided to leave them wild instead of taming them.  If they stay wild, I can kill them with air-drowning and still butcher the corpses.  If I tame them, then I can only get meat from them if I have them taken alive to a butcher’s shop and slaughtered, and I’m not sure if that works for a water-breathing creature.  Fortunately leaving them wild does not change their ability to reproduce.

They do need to not be in cages in order to breed.  Initially I dug out a sealed multi-Z-level chamber, built the sea serpent cages in it, linked them to a lever, pumped the chamber full of water, and then pulled the lever.  The sea serpents were able to swim around freely in their sealed box, and eventually gave birth to hatchlings.  To recover them, I made a long corridor lined with cage traps connecting the breeding chamber to the ocean, flooded with water.  When I pulled the lever to open the floodgates, the sea serpents made for the ocean, ending up caught in the cage traps again.

This worked - after a few years I had a nice handful of sea serpent hatchlings.  It was a little annoying getting them all back into cages however, since the hatchlings would try to stay near their parents even after the parents were caught in cages, rather than proceeding down the tunnel to be caught in cages themselves.  It was also a crude way of doing the breeding, and required a lot of work to set up and drain each breeding cycle. 

So I started designing something cleverer.

Here’s the breeding pen design I worked out:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There are four breeding chambers here, two of which have been loaded with sea serpents, the other two of which are empty in this shot.

On the right we have a chamber full of water.  It can be connected to the ocean, through a corridor full of cage traps.  Water can be pumped in or out.  This was actually the original room I used for breeding the sea serpents, now it’s being used as a water reservoir and catching chamber for any sea serpents that slip out of their pens.

To the left of that, short corridors containing three cage traps and a floor hatch over a drain line/access corridor.  These don’t show up as the corridor is full of water.  Between the trap corridor and water reservoir is a floodgate, open here.

Further to the left is the chamber which the female sea serpent is contained in.  (Male sea serpents are stored in a chamber elsewhere).  Each sea serpent is on a chain, which prevents her from leaving the breeding chamber even when the floodgates are open.  This chamber also has a staircase up, used by dwarves when the chamber is being loaded with its sea serpent.

On the left side of the sea serpent pen, we have a diamond window, and behind that a lever-controlled door hiding a dog on a rope.  This is used for separating the sea serpent from her hatchlings.

The first big challenge in this setup is getting a female sea serpent on a chain.  Getting a wild animal on a chain is difficult in the first place, never mind an aquatic animal.  When attempting to have a dwarf place a wild animal on a chain, you first want to minimize the distance which the dwarf will be pulling the animal.  Dwarves tend to panic and run away, letting the animal loose. Here I build the sea serpent cages right next to the chains, so that the dwarf only has to move the sea serpent a single tile.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

When you assign a creature currently in a constructed cage to a chain, two jobs are generated:  removing the creature from its current cage, and placing it on the chain.  It seems to be random which of these jobs gets chosen by the dwarves first.  If releasing the creature gets picked first, a dwarf will grab an empty cage from a stockpile, go to the sea serpent cage and put the sea serpent in the cage.  This is bad, you do not want to let this happen, it will result in the sea serpent ending up in an animal stockpile nowhere near the chain.  When waiting for the serpent to be moved, I have to watch carefully for any dwarf heading towards the breeding chamber while carrying an empty cage and lock the door in his face to force him to cancel the job.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Eventually a dwarf will pick the ‘chain animal’ job, and will attempt to take the sea serpent from the cage to the adjacent chain.  About half the time he’ll manage to do this without getting interrupted.  Either way, he’ll flee the chamber up the stairs, leaving a pissed off and air-drowning sea serpent behind him.  Above the chamber I have a pressure plate linked to the floodgate just to the right of the sea serpent.  I have to manually lock and unlock doors to force the fleeing dwarf to step on the pressure plate as he leaves.  This open the floodgate, flooding the chamber with water and preventing the sea serpent from air-drowning.  If the sea serpent isn’t chained, it at this point attempts to flee into the chamber to the right, running over the cage traps and getting re-caged in the process.  I then close the floodgates, drain the water, and have to reset everything to try again.

Eventually, possibly with much cursing at my dwarves to just chain the damn sea serpent up already, I get a female sea serpent in each breeding chamber.  Fortunately, I only have to do this once for each of them.  Sea serpents have lifespans of over 150 years, so it will be a long time before I have to worry about replacing my breeding stock.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Each year, each female sea serpent will give birth to 1-3 hatchlings.  There’s an open passage to the right, but the hatchlings stubbornly remain at their mother’s side.  At this point I pull another lever to open the door to the left of the breeding chamber.  This uncovers the diamond window, letting the sea serpents see the chained dog on the left side.  Despite their size and fearsome reputation, sea serpents are quite skittish and flee from the dog.  The mother is unable to leave her chamber, being still chained up, but the hatchlings run straight into the cage traps.  I can then close the door, close the floodgates, drain the water out of the trap passage, and retrieve the cages sea serpent hatchlings.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

With 5 breeding females at the moment, I get an average of 10 hatchlings a year, each individually caged.  These cages get placed on display around the fortress for the 6 years it takes for the hatchlings to mature, at which point they'll either be added to the existing breeding stock, or air-drowned and butchered for meat, bones, and leather.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Girlinhat on January 23, 2011, 06:37:09 pm
The dog thing.  That, is pure genius...  The issue of separating the young from the mother has been a long-standing issue, but this seems to be golden!
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on January 23, 2011, 06:46:03 pm
Finally, here's a map upload:

http://mkv25.net/dfma/map-10039-bannerleague
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Girlinhat on January 23, 2011, 06:50:53 pm
Granted, what are you going to DO with these expensive bones?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Canalan on January 23, 2011, 07:10:04 pm
This is the best thing since 3D.  I bow before you, god of pointless endeavors.
How old is your fort, by the way?  And did you mod your dwarves for [SPEED:0] and the like?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on January 23, 2011, 07:14:27 pm
How old is your fort, by the way?  And did you mod your dwarves for [SPEED:0] and the like?

The fortress is 17 years old at the moment.  I did not mod the dwarves for [SPEED:0], but I did turn off invasions, not that it mattered once I sealed off the map edge.

Granted, what are you going to DO with these expensive bones?

The bones get turned into masterwork totems and bone crafts by my one legendary bonecrafter.  That's not where the big profit is, though, it's just a side industry.  The big profit is from the giant stacks of prepared meals, sea serpent meat cut with cheese and syrup by my team of master chefs.  I've also modded scale to be usable as shell, so I've got some sea serpent scale crafts getting made too.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: buckets on January 23, 2011, 07:32:51 pm
What version of DF are you using? For a while 2010 had creatureless oceans, so I've never gone near them. I'm curious weather or not I should upgrade to .18 or just stay with my .16
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Girlinhat on January 23, 2011, 07:36:11 pm
The way I understand it, the game allows some 1-3 herds of animals on screen at any given moment.  If there's groundhogs, there's no whales.  Assign some hunters and take out your surface wildlife, and eventually sea life will appear.  Or take this guy's approach, and block off the edges of the map like some perverse nature reserve.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Vattic on January 23, 2011, 07:41:38 pm
Very dwarfy; I enjoyed reading your posts. I've built wild animal breeders similar to yours for land animals but having to deal with water as well is crazy.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on January 23, 2011, 07:42:41 pm
This is on version .16, but I saw very few creatures in the ocean until I walled off the surface.  Sea creatures and land creatures seem to share the same slots on the restricted number of groups of wild animals you can have on the map at once.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: slothen on January 23, 2011, 08:54:48 pm
now you need a pit filled with 5/7 water and put serpents in it.  Then pit naked prisoners there for executions.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: ext0l on January 23, 2011, 09:00:33 pm
I approve of this thread.
Unfortunately, I am still too nooby to even attempt an evil embark.  :-[
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Lortath on January 23, 2011, 09:08:11 pm
Beautiful,

Just beautiful...
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Iced on January 23, 2011, 09:32:43 pm
This is simply amazing.....


 well done Sphalerite, you are a hero to us all.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Randy Gnoman on January 23, 2011, 09:39:29 pm
This... is beautiful.

 :'(

Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sutremaine on January 23, 2011, 09:44:31 pm
Nice.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: LilGunmanX on January 23, 2011, 10:05:01 pm
[what begins as a slow clap grows into a raucous !!standing ovation!!]

Bravo, bravo! It's beautiful! Truly a MASTERWORK! I dub thee, "Sphalerite, The Sea Serpents of Poaching" in recognition of your revolutionary development of the first dwarven serpents kennel.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: JoshBrickstien on January 23, 2011, 10:33:32 pm
This is incredible. I was just waiting for someone to recreate mermaid farms. Very well done.


now you need a pit filled with 5/7 water and put serpents in it.  Then pit criminals (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Noble) there for executions.

Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: veok on January 23, 2011, 10:38:26 pm
I like this thread.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: DuckBoy2 on January 24, 2011, 12:03:50 am
Any other secrets to chaining wildlife you've encountered?  My dwarves are too stupid to chain naked moledogs, and are consistently eaten by crocodiles, dralthas, and jabberers whenever I try to chain them.  My mermaid farm of 40d fell apart when I failed to chain my captured mermaids.  They would always escape, run off, and airdrown :( 

Like everyone else, I applaud you, and bow before the glorious RNG for not giving you 2 male sea serpents after what must have been many years of ocean draining. 
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: parlor_tricks on January 24, 2011, 06:11:10 am
*(Claps)* Encore
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: GamerKnight on January 24, 2011, 06:21:17 am
How deep does the water need to be if sea serpents are going to survive in it? Just thinking you could wall off the ocean, breed tons of sea serpents and lightly flood the entire map every time there are goblins in order to devour them all alive... Couple that with what you're doing and I think that rates DDD. (For Dwarflike Dwarfy Dwarfiness)
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Musashi on January 24, 2011, 07:13:58 am
Oh my Armok.
So it is possible.
... can you do that with fire imps now?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on January 24, 2011, 08:36:47 am
Any other secrets to chaining wildlife you've encountered?  My dwarves are too stupid to chain naked moledogs, and are consistently eaten by crocodiles, dralthas, and jabberers whenever I try to chain them.  My mermaid farm of 40d fell apart when I failed to chain my captured mermaids.  They would always escape, run off, and airdrown :( 
It seems to be pretty random whether a dwarf will succeed at chaining a wild animal.  I maximize the chances by having the cage and chain in adjacent tiles so the distance the sea serpent has to be transported is as short as possible.  To deal with the escaping and airdrowning issue I have the dwarf doing the chaining step on a pressure plate as he leaves, opening a floodgate that floods the sea serpent chamber with water, and opens a path to cage traps so that the sea serpent will be recaptured if it didn't get chained.

How deep does the water need to be if sea serpents are going to survive in it? Just thinking you could wall off the ocean, breed tons of sea serpents and lightly flood the entire map every time there are goblins in order to devour them all alive..
I don't know how deep the water needs to be for them to survive, but I do know that they won't ever voluntarily swim into water that's less than 7/7 deep.  Goblins may be able to survive and swim in 7/7 deep water.  I'm not sure that the sea serpents would actually attack them - they seem pretty timid and run away from dwarves and dogs.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: FearfulJesuit on January 24, 2011, 11:12:31 am
By Armok, this is genius. I salute you, sir, and would, were this real life, treat you to a meal of dwarven ale and masterpiece puppy meat roasts.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Vorthon on January 24, 2011, 11:28:48 am
*picks up jaw off the floor.*

Words... cannot... describe... how... awesome... this... is...
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: jfsh on January 24, 2011, 12:11:32 pm
Awesome.

Since you seem to be some kind of super-villain already, I think you should consider a large aquarium tank directly underneath the throne room, filled with sea serpents and sharks.  Turn invasions back on, trap some goblins, and see if you can "make them talk."
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on January 24, 2011, 12:45:14 pm
The shark tank is really the next logical step.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Vorthon on January 24, 2011, 01:01:05 pm
The shark tank is really the next logical step.

Followed by a sea serpent cannon. Fire sea serpents at the elves!
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Kanddak on January 24, 2011, 01:09:39 pm
When you assign a creature currently in a constructed cage to a chain, two jobs are generated:  removing the creature from its current cage, and placing it on the chain.  It seems to be random which of these jobs gets chosen by the dwarves first.  If releasing the creature gets picked first, a dwarf will grab an empty cage from a stockpile, go to the sea serpent cage and put the sea serpent in the cage.  This is bad, you do not want to let this happen, it will result in the sea serpent ending up in an animal stockpile nowhere near the chain.  When waiting for the serpent to be moved, I have to watch carefully for any dwarf heading towards the breeding chamber while carrying an empty cage and lock the door in his face to force him to cancel the job.
I would make some kind of antechamber to the breeding area and put a dummy lever in it. When an animal needs chaining, I'd order the call lever pulled on repeat and then lock in whatever dwarf shows up. Then that dwarf can do the chaining, but no one can get in with an empty cage.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Crazy Cow on January 24, 2011, 08:20:48 pm
You, my friend, are a god. I am using your methods as we speak.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 24, 2011, 08:24:22 pm
But can you farm Sea Monsters? (Is it even possible? I don't know.)
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Lortath on January 24, 2011, 08:30:19 pm
But can you farm Sea Monsters? (Is it even possible? I don't know.)

If they can have, babies, i think yes. (I didn't found in they raws, if needed just add them the tag(s))
And it would be incredibly dwarfy!

Or better, add tag for making them trainable and create a system for training them into !! WAR SEA MONSTER !!
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on January 24, 2011, 08:33:54 pm
Sea monsters have the CHILD tags, but you'll have to add [PET] to get them to actually breed.  They have [POPULATION_NUMBER:1:1] so you'll need to embark across two evil ocean biomes to get two of them.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 24, 2011, 08:42:03 pm
Sea monsters have the CHILD tags, but you'll have to add [PET] to get them to actually breed.  They have [POPULATION_NUMBER:1:1] so you'll need to embark across two evil ocean biomes to get two of them.
I imagine the untamed ones will be a far greater threat to the dwarves as well, being more combat-able than Sea Serpents (In theory at least, I have yet to encounter either creature.)
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: takaratiki on January 24, 2011, 10:21:19 pm
Hmm... Rare wild animals captured... Brought to an exotic facility... Captive breeding program...

IT'S DWARVEN SEA WORLD!!!

San Diego, eat your heart out! The Sea Serpent Shamu act should be amazing, but when they go rogue Ooof! Not pretty that.

Excellent Dwarveness, sir, simply excellent.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Jacob/Lee on January 24, 2011, 10:23:25 pm
Hmm.... This thread's talk has inspired me to build a shark tank that I can dump liasons/sieges into....
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: kopout on January 24, 2011, 10:37:48 pm
Sea monsters have the CHILD tags, but you'll have to add [PET] to get them to actually breed.  They have [POPULATION_NUMBER:1:1] so you'll need to embark across two evil ocean biomes to get two of them.
I imagine the untamed ones will be a far greater threat to the dwarves as well, being more combat-able than Sea Serpents (In theory at least, I have yet to encounter either creature.)
I ran them against each other in the arena. Monster killed serpent 3/3 times.Looks like the see monsters have more fight in them than see serpents.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Thorzog on January 24, 2011, 11:07:54 pm
There needs to be a magmawiki entry on this. This is truly amazing.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on January 25, 2011, 06:56:11 am
Sea monsters have the CHILD tags, but you'll have to add [PET] to get them to actually breed.  They have [POPULATION_NUMBER:1:1] so you'll need to embark across two evil ocean biomes to get two of them.
I imagine the untamed ones will be a far greater threat to the dwarves as well, being more combat-able than Sea Serpents (In theory at least, I have yet to encounter either creature.)
I ran them against each other in the arena. Monster killed serpent 3/3 times.Looks like the see monsters have more fight in them than see serpents.

[BODY:BASIC_2PARTBODY:BASIC_HEAD:UPPERBODY_PINCERS:REAR_BODY_FLIPPERS:TAIL:SIX_TENTACLES:2EYESTALKS:4EYES:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:THROAT:NECK:SPINE:BRAIN:MOUTH]

Death marked in red. Sea monsters are basically eldritch horrors.

Also, comparing average size-

Sea serpent:
[BODY_SIZE:0:0:200000]
[BODY_SIZE:20:0:9000000]

Sea monster:
[BODY_SIZE:0:0:8000000]

So sea serpents are somewhat larger, but sea monsters have many natural weapons. I think we need to see a sea monster fight a megabeast.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Vindicated_Dorf120 on January 25, 2011, 01:20:55 pm
This thread inspired me to join the forum, simply to congratulate you on the sheer awesomeness of your breeding project. Well, okay, and to ask a question regarding a thought someone else had.. WOULD it be possible to tame and breed fire imps?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: kopout on January 25, 2011, 01:21:06 pm
The dragon beet it but was severely injured except when they used fire breath.. Bronze colossus has some broken toes and fingers but other than that only a few dents.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: kopout on January 25, 2011, 01:28:09 pm
sorry about the double  post

The dragon beat it but was severely injured except when they used fire breath.. Bronze colossus has some broken toes and fingers but other than that only a few dents.Hydras don't stand a chance.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on January 25, 2011, 01:29:23 pm
This thread inspired me to join the forum, simply to congratulate you on the sheer awesomeness of your breeding project. Well, okay, and to ask a question regarding a thought someone else had.. WOULD it be possible to tame and breed fire imps?

Fire imps in the unmodded game don't have children or genders defined, and aren't [PET] or [PET_EXOTIC].  You'd have to do a lot of modding to turn them into something that can breed and be tamed.  If you added genders, children, and gave them the [PET] token, then you could tame and/or breed them.  Don't expect their fireballs to make any distinction between your dwarves and enemies, however.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Vindicated_Dorf120 on January 25, 2011, 03:33:48 pm
Thanks, I found another thread on Fire imp based defenses that details it as well. Looks impractical.. plus the lack of any apparent source of high level magma on my current map indicates it'll have to wait, regardless. Ah well, I'll just stick to my war elephant cage release trap. :-)
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: thijser on January 25, 2011, 03:55:39 pm
Maybe you could use a multi z-level system to easily seperate the young from their parents? Simply make a system like this
d=door
w=water less then 7/7
W=water 7/7 
now finding out on which z-level grown sea serpents will refuse to enter and young once will and adding a system to control how much water there is in the w tiles.

ddwwww
W
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on January 25, 2011, 04:03:11 pm
now finding out on which z-level grown sea serpents will refuse to enter and young once will and adding a system to control how much water there is in the w tiles.
I don't think it works that way.  As far as I can tell, an aquatic creature in 7/7 water won't voluntarily travel into water less than 7/7 deep.  I don't think this has anything to do with the size of the creature, it seems to be a fundamental part of aquatic creature behavior.  I'm not actually sure if a dog behind a window will scare a sea serpent into shallow water, but I suspect not, and I'm pretty sure that the behavior of hatchlings and adults would be the same in any case.

Having to chain up the adult females is the weak part of this design, and it would help a lot if there was some better way to separate the children from the breeding females that didn't require chaining the females.  I haven't found one yet.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Girlinhat on January 25, 2011, 04:06:55 pm
I fail to see how this is the weak point...  This puts your breeding stock in one location, while allowing you to scare the young off into another location.  Just, make the child pit 1 Z down, and put floodgates on the breeding level so that you can close off the breeding chamber, keeping it waterlogged, and drain the child pit for easy recovery of hatchlings.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on January 25, 2011, 04:11:31 pm
The problem is that chaining up water-breathing wild creatures is really, really annoying.  Chaining up a wild animal seems to succeed less than half the time, even when the animal's cage is right next to the chain.  You need to be prepared to recapture the wild animal if it doesn't get chained.  You also need to make sure no children or dogs or anything else wander in while the animal's being chained.  With an aquatic creature, you need to flood the area with water immediately afterwards to stop the creature from air-drowning, since dwarves won't chain a creature to a submerged chain.  Everything else about the project was pretty straightforward, even draining the ocean was just straightforward engineering.  Getting the sea serpents chained up in their breeding chambers was the part that gave me the most worries.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Girlinhat on January 25, 2011, 04:15:16 pm
If you're doing it right though, you should never have to re-chain the serpents.  At least, not until old age and replacements.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on January 25, 2011, 04:17:20 pm
If you're doing it right though, you should never have to re-chain the serpents.  At least, not until old age and replacements.
Quite true, and since sea serpents live 150-170 years, once I have them chained up it's effectively permanent.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Girlinhat on January 25, 2011, 04:18:49 pm
I'm also curious why you didn't simply mod the raws a little more, and give the serpent a population of 5 or something?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on January 25, 2011, 04:23:18 pm
I'm also curious why you didn't simply mod the raws a little more, and give the serpent a population of 5 or something?

If I wanted it to be easy, I'd breed elephants.  The point here was to find the most challenging exotic creature that could still be bred without modding.  If Dungeon Masters weren't bugged, I wouldn't have had to mod them at all.  Also, part of the point of the project was to explore exactly what the POPULATION_NUMBER token means.  Before I started this I wasn't sure if it was a per-site, per-biome, or per-region limit, or a yearly spawn rate, or what.  It seems from this and other tests I've done to be a per-biome non-renewing population setting, so a site that includes two savage ocean biomes has exactly two sea serpents naturally occurring.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on January 25, 2011, 04:30:59 pm
Now the question is: If you let a sea serpent enter and leave the map uncaged, will another one spawn, and if so, will it be the same one or is it randomly generated again?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Girlinhat on January 25, 2011, 04:35:09 pm
Only one way to find out.  You must wound one and release it.  Or perhaps attempt to dismantle the rope its attached to, as this will cause it to have the rope still "equipped" due to a small bug, not that the rope around the neck has any stat boost or anything.  But deconstructing a rope from a wild sea serpent is a bit of a challenge in itself!

Alternatively, if you release a bunch of newly-matured serpents, will they eventually return to your embark, or when they leave the map do they simply disappear?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on January 25, 2011, 04:37:05 pm
Now the question is: If you let a sea serpent enter and leave the map uncaged, will another one spawn, and if so, will it be the same one or is it randomly generated again?
A very interesting question.  I did a series of tests before this fortress in which I modded every animal in the world to have a population of 1, and then did a series of test embarks, killed or released wild animals, and then abandoned the fortress and did a data export in legends mode to check the animal populations.  It appears that wild animals which leave the map get added back into the off-map local population, so in theory if I released a bunch of captive-born sea serpents into the wild they'd add to the local population.  I don't know if they're tracked as individuals.  I'd have to let one kill one of my dwarves and gain a name, or give one a distinctive injury or something.  The only problem is that I'll have to recage my entire breeding population to try this, since the presence of any non-caged wild animals on the map will prevent any new ones from appearing.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Hydrall on January 25, 2011, 04:47:13 pm
Truly amazing. There are no words to describe this that haven't already been said.

You're an inspiration to dwarfkind.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on January 25, 2011, 04:53:53 pm
Or perhaps attempt to dismantle the rope its attached to, as this will cause it to have the rope still "equipped" due to a small bug, not that the rope around the neck has any stat boost or anything.  But deconstructing a rope from a wild sea serpent is a bit of a challenge in itself!
This is actually pretty easy to do.  If I link a lever to the chain before attaching the sea serpent, then when I pull the lever the chain stays attached to the sea serpent.

Now the real interesting test to try would be to release a lot of Sea Serpents with attached chains, abandon the fortress, embark right next door on the same biome, and then see if any of the released serpents show up.

"Having been equipped with tracking collars so their migration and survival in the wild can be measured, the young Sea Serpent is released into the wild.  It is hoped that this captive breeding program will boost their terribly low population numbers and eventually see them removed from the endangered species list..."
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 25, 2011, 04:56:07 pm
"Having been equipped with tracking collars so their migration and survival in the wild can be measured, the young Sea Serpent is released into the wild.  It is hoped that this captive breeding program will boost their terribly low population numbers and eventually see them removed from the endangered species list..."
"...and placed into the revenge on elves species list."
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Girlinhat on January 25, 2011, 05:12:54 pm
Wait, you can link a restraint to a lever?  Really?!
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: jellsprout on January 25, 2011, 05:28:33 pm
"Having been equipped with tracking collars so their migration and survival in the wild can be measured, the young Sea Serpent is released into the wild.  It is hoped that this captive breeding program will boost their terribly low population numbers and eventually see them removed from the endangered species list..."

This needs to be sigg'd.

Next time I tell anyone about Dwarf Fortress, I will link to this thread.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on January 25, 2011, 05:41:17 pm
Wait, you can link a restraint to a lever?  Really?!
Yep, ropes and chains are a valid target to a lever or other trigger.  All of the sea serpent chains in my breeding facility have levers attached in case I need to move them.  The one annoying bit is that when you trigger it, the restraint stays attached to the neck of the released creature, which is helpful in this hypothetical case.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Girlinhat on January 25, 2011, 05:44:03 pm
I had no idea you could attach chains to levers!  This changes... I dunno, a few things!
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: thijser on January 26, 2011, 01:39:53 am
Maybe we could do the reverse then? The females are chained up right so they can't leave what about making it 2 tiles deep with a hatch bellow the 2nd. once you activate the hatch both will the female and the young will fall down 1  z-level but then the chain blocks the female from falling futher while the young falls down an extra z-level.


Something lik this
w=water
h=hatch (+water) c=chain
white space is wall
-=open space
wc
h
------------


now you will need a way by which you can quickly replace the water so you can add a reservoir above it.
something like this
w
w
h

wc
h
-
-----------

With this you should be able to air drown your target fairly well. One risk is that the fall does fall damage but maybe you can stop that by placing an annimal so that the sea serpent falls on that (for example a dog). In which case it might end up looking like this
g=grate
w
w
h

wc
h
-
cg----------

Still you are going to chain up sea serpents with this design. An alternatife might be by filling an area with floodgates and pumps something like this
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

so that once you pull the lever all the floodgates appear except for the squares where there is a serpent. You can then pump out the squares where you wish to kill the serpents. Once you pull again you can quickly refill the lost water. This does require them to be more then 1 square away trough.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sheb on January 26, 2011, 01:56:12 am
Have you ever though of the possibility that the two first Sea Serpent could have been two males?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Artanis00 on January 26, 2011, 02:54:10 am
Have you ever though of the possibility that the two first Sea Serpent could have been two males?

Quote
Those sea serpents you sold me, they won't mate. They just walk around, eating, and not mating. You sold me... queer sea serpents. I want my money back.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on January 26, 2011, 06:23:21 am
That's why I asked about whether they would be randomly generated again. If they don't, he would have been screwed.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Girlinhat on January 26, 2011, 08:29:34 am
As to the guy with the long post: He's not trying to kill the babies, he's trying to cage them and let them mature into more expensive adults.  Alternatively, would enough flowing water be able to push the babies away?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on January 26, 2011, 08:31:21 am
Judging by Trapping Attempt #1, I'd say no.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on January 26, 2011, 08:37:44 am
I thought about using flowing water to separate the hatchlings from the adult females, and did a few experiments.  What I discovered is that flowing water will also separate the adult females from the chains.  Chains and ropes in DF appear to work by mind control.  A creature which is attached to a restraint will never voluntarily move more than one tile away from the restraint.  However, any force which involuntarily moves the creature - flowing water, cave-in dust, recoil from being struck in combat, being flung by a bridge or having the floor removed from under it - will cause the creature to move as if the chain were doing nothing.  And when the creature is pushed more than one tile away from the chain, it will become detached from the chain.  So the chain only works to prevent the sea serpent from wandering away on her own.  Which works with the chained-up dogs behind a window, the hatchlings run away into the cage traps but the adult female won't leave the chain.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Girlinhat on January 26, 2011, 08:54:16 am
Huh, so I guess that derails my idea for goblin hanging posts.  I was gonna build short posts, with a chain on top, a goblin on the chain, and the chain dangling off the edge.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: thijser on January 26, 2011, 02:25:50 pm
How about combining it with a lot of extra floodgates something like this

x=floodgate
c=cage trap

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
ccccccccccccccccccccccccccc

first you pull the lever on the first layer off floodgates to seperate them into easily controlable groups you then let them trough the next floodgate and into the cage traps (the second layer are all conected to a diffrend lever).
Remember that you can also use a system simmulair to what I proposed earlier to just kill the once you want and let the once you want to keep live without chains.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on January 26, 2011, 02:48:52 pm
The problem is that the sea serpent hatchlings will whenever possible occupy the same tile as their mother, so they can't be separated floodgates that way.  You'll just end up with the sea serpents all on the same or adjacent tiles surrounded by closed floodgates.

It might be possible to take advantage of the fact that the mother moves first, and the hatchlings follow, and so close a floodgate just after the mother's gone by.  I'll have to do some testing along those lines.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Girlinhat on January 26, 2011, 02:52:44 pm
Except that the timing would have to be insanely tight to achieve this.  You might maybe be able to set up a pressure plate surrounded on all 8 sides with floodgates, so that anything that steps on it will lock itself in.  If you ensure that you have running water at all times, because floodgates destroy liquids, then eventually the mother will move faster and the child will be 2 steps back, and outside of the gate ring, or else the child grows up and starts moving alone onto one of the traps.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: melomel on January 26, 2011, 09:48:10 pm
Oh sweet Armok.

What a thing of !!BEAUTY!!.

Now do it on two savage evil oceans so you can have sea serpents AND sea monsters.

...Crap, would it be possible for your only two of each to be zombie/skeletal instead of alive?  Do sea monsters even have bones?

And how effective would a skeletal sea monster be as a fortress defense?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on January 26, 2011, 10:48:11 pm
It would be worth it for the sea monsters, really. They are made of murder and kill. They can maim dragons.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on January 26, 2011, 10:57:33 pm
...Crap, would it be possible for your only two of each to be zombie/skeletal instead of alive?  Do sea monsters even have bones?
As far as I can tell, skeletal/zombie monsters do not draw from the normal biome population, but are simply generated in infinite numbers.  So if you are in an area with sea serpents or sea monsters, and are getting skeletal creatures, the skeletal sea monsters or sea serpents shouldn't count against the fixed populations from the biomes.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Girlinhat on January 26, 2011, 11:40:51 pm
Can skeletal monsters be modded in some form to only appear after a certain population or wealth cap?  If they're infinite, then someone should up the spawn frequency and size of spawn, and align them to appear in increasingly harder creatures as more wealth is gained, resulting in Zombie Dragons.

Also, I haven't peeked into zombie raws, but I don't recall seeing any?  Can they be directly modded?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: fivex on January 27, 2011, 12:14:27 am
  Can they be directly modded?
No
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: jellsprout on January 27, 2011, 07:11:05 am
On Evil biomes, isn't to possible to get only one of skeletal, zombie or evil creatures? IIRC, an evil biome with skeletons will never have zombies or evil monsters. So no skeletal Sea Monsters.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on January 27, 2011, 08:28:17 am
It's possible. The opposite is also possible.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: The Architect on January 27, 2011, 12:07:34 pm
You don't disappoint, Sphalerite.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on January 27, 2011, 10:34:07 pm
Since you seem to be some kind of super-villain already, I think you should consider a large aquarium tank directly underneath the throne room, filled with sea serpents and sharks.  Turn invasions back on, trap some goblins, and see if you can "make them talk."

(http://i52.tinypic.com/2rxfxoy.jpg)

Ngom Xunustslazu, Goblin Thief:  Do you expect me to talk?

Thikut Oslanniles, Duke:  No, Mister Xunustslazu.  I expect you to die.

pulls the lever

(http://i55.tinypic.com/rkwvig.jpg)

(http://i56.tinypic.com/2rr2miq.jpg)

(Duke Thikut then proceeded to sleep with the elven diplomat.  Seriously, I'm not making that up.  He went from 'Pull Lever' to 'Sleep', and she joined him, remaining in his bed until he got up.  This fortress is turning into some kind of supervillain lair or something)
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Girlinhat on January 27, 2011, 10:37:07 pm
It's about damn time!
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 27, 2011, 10:37:39 pm
This fortress is turning into some kind of supervillain lair or something.
You do remember that you've been farming gigantic wingless dragon-fish for profit and Fun, right?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on January 27, 2011, 11:31:15 pm
This fortress is turning into some kind of supervillain lair or something.
You do remember that you've been farming gigantic wingless dragon-fish for profit and Fun, right?

This quote right here is the essence of DF.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: The Architect on January 27, 2011, 11:52:41 pm
to paraphrase: "I built a goblin torture chamber and tested it. It was everything you could hope for."
You don't disappoint, Sphalerite.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: thijser on January 28, 2011, 01:03:14 am
You could also try to capture every sea serpent both female and young in a cage then place the cage on a and use that to release the once you want to keep. The rest can be killed easily.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: veok on January 28, 2011, 10:43:56 pm
On Evil biomes, isn't to possible to get only one of skeletal, zombie or evil creatures? IIRC, an evil biome with skeletons will never have zombies or evil monsters. So no skeletal Sea Monsters.

In my experience, single undead embarks are more common (*only* zombies, or *only* skeletons) but I've had both on one map before. Not as *often*, mind, but it does happen.

Anecdotal evidence. Take it as you will.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: OrbinDules on January 29, 2011, 08:35:31 pm
This fortress is turning into some kind of supervillain lair or something.
You do remember that you've been farming gigantic wingless dragon-fish for profit and Fun, right?

Sigged
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Tzusch on January 30, 2011, 08:51:48 am
Very impressive, this certainly marks a significant progress in "dwarfology".
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: o_O[WTFace] on January 30, 2011, 11:49:15 am
In my experience, single undead embarks are more common (*only* zombies, or *only* skeletons) but I've had both on one map before. Not as *often*, mind, but it does happen.

Anecdotal evidence. Take it as you will.

Maybe embarking across a Haunted biome and a Terrifying biome?  I remember hearing there was a difference between the two in terms of undead stuff they like to generate. 
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: GamerKnight on January 31, 2011, 01:25:20 am
There should be ghostly undead. But that would take up tons of fps.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Addled on February 03, 2011, 11:11:43 pm
I can't get a savage ocean to generate. How'd you get it to appear?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on February 03, 2011, 11:26:30 pm
Low elevation, high evil, high savagery.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on February 04, 2011, 08:31:01 am
I can't get a savage ocean to generate. How'd you get it to appear?
I used the default settings, but I had to generate many maximum-size worlds and search them extensively by hand to find an appropriate site.  It took a while.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on February 13, 2011, 10:09:32 pm
This does not deserve to be on page ten.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: ohgoditburns on February 17, 2011, 01:42:52 pm
Has anyone figured out yet how Sea Serpents work in .19? The raws say that they lay eggs - does that change how we breed them?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on February 17, 2011, 01:45:41 pm
Has anyone figured out yet how Sea Serpents work in .19? The raws say that they lay eggs - does that change how we breed them?
Looks like I'll have to start a new seaside fortress and build a sea serpent farm from scratch again to find out.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Vorthon on February 17, 2011, 01:46:49 pm
Has anyone figured out yet how Sea Serpents work in .19? The raws say that they lay eggs - does that change how we breed them?
Looks like I'll have to start a new seaside fortress and build a sea serpent farm from scratch again to find out.

Underwater Nest Boxes!
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: ohgoditburns on February 17, 2011, 01:52:09 pm
I'm already working on a 3x3 with 2 savage oceans. My money is on Sphalerite getting the serpents up and running first though.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sheb on February 17, 2011, 02:19:48 pm
Getting the serpents up and running? seeing as they don't have elgs, it may be quite difficults. :P
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: ohgoditburns on February 17, 2011, 02:23:18 pm
Getting the serpents up and running? seeing as they don't have elgs, it may be quite difficults. :P

ಠ_ಠ
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on February 17, 2011, 02:40:47 pm
Actually, it may be a while before I upgrade to a new version of DF.  I'm having trouble even getting 31.19 to generate a world without crashing.  I may wait till some of the bugs and issues have been cleaned up in 31.20 or later till I start a new fortress.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Neopolis on February 17, 2011, 04:00:25 pm
Just read through this entire topic. Wow. You are an example to dwarfdom.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: j0nas on February 17, 2011, 04:18:24 pm
Op is a dwarf amongst mere goblins.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on March 01, 2011, 09:01:28 pm
I have done some preliminary testing in the current version (31.19).

A captured untame female sea serpent released into a water-filled chamber full of nest boxes shows no interest in them.  Even when forced to move and stay on top of a nest box, she does not claim it or lay an egg.

I suspect that the egg-laying behavior doesn't work underwater, probably due to underwater nest boxes being unusable due to being underwater.  Which means that until this is fixed, sea serpents can't breed.

I'll try capturing a male sea serpent, but I doubt it'll make any difference.  Egg-laying creatures need a usable nest box, and underwater nest boxes aren't usable.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: darkflagrance on March 01, 2011, 09:21:46 pm
What if you temporarily drain the water? Will the air-drowning serpent claim the nest and lay her eggs, giving you just enough time to refill her tank before she dies?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on March 01, 2011, 09:34:52 pm
What if you temporarily drain the water? Will the air-drowning serpent claim the nest and lay her eggs, giving you just enough time to refill her tank before she dies?
Doesn't seem to work.  I just tried it, had her directly on a nest box, drained the water till it was at 1/7 and she was drowning, then refilled it.  No claimed nest box, no sea serpent eggs.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 01, 2011, 09:36:11 pm
What if you temporarily drain the water? Will the air-drowning serpent claim the nest and lay her eggs, giving you just enough time to refill her tank before she dies?
Doesn't seem to work.  I just tried it, had her directly on a nest box, drained the water till it was at 1/7 and she was drowning, then refilled it.  No claimed nest box, no sea serpent eggs.
If the water is what's causing the problem, you'd probably have to drain it to 0/7 to get results, but by that point the serpent would probably be dead.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Girlinhat on March 01, 2011, 10:09:39 pm
I think at that point, the "Drowning" status would override the "Claim Nest" action, and you'd just have a floundering serpent.  That's a shame, I wanted mermaid egg farms too!
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Patchy on March 01, 2011, 10:20:50 pm
Set them to amphibious I guess? Dunno if it'd do anything but might be worth a try, if anything you can still drain it and see if they'll lay some eggs when they aren't drowning.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Girlinhat on March 01, 2011, 10:21:46 pm
Then you'll have serpents rush up and attack your woodcutter and shit!  Which is fun in its own right, for sure.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 01, 2011, 10:38:10 pm
Then you'll have serpents rush up and attack your woodcutter and shit!  Which is fun in its own right, for sure.
Look man, you know it and I know it, the woodcutters are screwed no matter what happens. With Amphibious Sea Serpents, at the very least their horrible, painful deaths can amuse us.


....I think Dwarf Fortress may be putting us all into the mindset of being a Greek God.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 01, 2011, 11:42:48 pm
....I think Dwarf Fortress may be putting us all into the mindset of being a Greek God.

Can I sig this?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Noir on June 10, 2011, 08:04:09 pm
Words simply cannot describe the dwarfyness of this all. Hence:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Armok on June 13, 2011, 06:04:26 am
This is the BEST THING.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Tetragenic on June 13, 2011, 06:29:01 am
There is only ONE WAY this could be more dwarfy.

Mod them so they live in the magma sea. Then try and breed them.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Mekboy on June 13, 2011, 07:25:24 am
Just read this thread. Bravo, good sir. Bravo.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Girlinhat on June 13, 2011, 07:52:35 am
There is only ONE WAY this could be more dwarfy.

Mod them so they live in the magma sea. Then try and breed them.
When this thread was created, I made another thread asking about breeding a magma-only creature, but it appears that there are no tokens that make a creature survive only in magma.  Aquatic creatures will not breath magma and will drown, and amphibious creatures will leave it.  It seems to be impossible to make a creature that dies outside of magma.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Necro910 on June 13, 2011, 10:14:35 am
There is only ONE WAY this could be more dwarfy.

Mod them so they live in the magma sea. Then try and breed them.
When this thread was created, I made another thread asking about breeding a magma-only creature, but it appears that there are no tokens that make a creature survive only in magma.  Aquatic creatures will not breath magma and will drown, and amphibious creatures will leave it.  It seems to be impossible to make a creature that dies outside of magma.
There might be a way to make them "die of cold" outside of magma...
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Doro on June 13, 2011, 10:18:08 am
There is only ONE WAY this could be more dwarfy.

Mod them so they live in the magma sea. Then try and breed them.
When this thread was created, I made another thread asking about breeding a magma-only creature, but it appears that there are no tokens that make a creature survive only in magma.  Aquatic creatures will not breath magma and will drown, and amphibious creatures will leave it.  It seems to be impossible to make a creature that dies outside of magma.
There might be a way to make them "die of cold" outside of magma...

because this is DF, amphibious creatures are still leaving magma even though they are dying. its like preventing your dwarves from gathering wood or plants outside while there are 2 squads of crossbow gobbos sieging
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Girlinhat on June 13, 2011, 10:21:03 am
...amphibious creatures don't die outside of magma.  They're amphibious.  They breathe air.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on June 13, 2011, 10:23:15 am
because this is DF, amphibious creatures are still leaving magma even though they are dying. its like preventing your dwarves from gathering wood or plants outside while there are 2 squads of crossbow gobbos sieging

This means that a magma-creature farm needs to not only keep the creatures in magma, but prevent them from leaving the magma even if they want to, while still permitting them to breed and safely separating the children.  That's an interesting additional challenge.

...amphibious creatures don't die outside of magma.  They're amphibious.  They breathe air.

A creature modded to die when at a temperature below magma will die when it leaves the magma.  Unfortunately, the creature AI doesn't know this, so they'll leave the magma anyway.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Girlinhat on June 13, 2011, 10:34:40 am
Since magma creatures swim in magma (or at least all vanilla ones are able to) then you should be able to make a tall magma column, and lure the creatures to travel up it and into whatever area you've decided to breed them in.  Then, seal them in via hatches, and separate as normal.  The only huge requirement is to have a large magma reservoir above the breeding chamber, so that you can keep the fluid levels high.  A volcano or a very shallow map will be needed.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: caknuck on June 13, 2011, 10:48:02 am
We need a [MAGMAPHILE] token
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Satarus on June 13, 2011, 04:19:12 pm
This is awesome.  You, sir, win at the game.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: expwnent on June 16, 2011, 11:42:46 pm
How have I never seen this?

GREATEST THREAD EVER.

Sphalerite, you win a dwarven internet.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: zx.pr0jk# on June 17, 2011, 08:45:58 am
Glorious, wonderful read. I'd seen the title on the thread list for a couple days now, and thought nothing of it since I'd already read about mermaid farming being impossible. Glad I decided to look in.

It gave me a little side inspiration though regarding that lever-chain "bug". Does that still exist in the current version? I'm thinking about putting chains on all of my naked captured invaders because of this thread. What exactly happens with that bug? Is the chain deconstructed and then in the creature's inventory? Or does it duplicate the chain into their inventory and leave the constructed chain on the floor? If I do that multiple times to the same goblin, will it have multiple ropes attached to it when released?

Can't wait till I cage my next Goblin Lawgiver. They always get a special "welcome".
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Girlinhat on June 17, 2011, 08:51:24 am
I rarely mess with chains, but apparently when you hook a creature to a chain, it adds an inventory to them, -Steel Chain- Neck.  When you remove the creature, then the inventory "item" disappears, but when you destroy the chain, the inventory slot remains.

This does, btw, inspire me about slaves.  Using Runesmith/DFusion, I'll make some captured individuals into my civ, but give them a nice chain around their neck as well.

Also, science demands the question - Will this chain provide any protection from attacks?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on June 17, 2011, 08:52:51 am
It gave me a little side inspiration though regarding that lever-chain "bug". Does that still exist in the current version? I'm thinking about putting chains on all of my naked captured invaders because of this thread. What exactly happens with that bug? Is the chain deconstructed and then in the creature's inventory? Or does it duplicate the chain into their inventory and leave the constructed chain on the floor? If I do that multiple times to the same goblin, will it have multiple ropes attached to it when released?

If you build a chain, link it to a lever, attach a creature to the chain, then pull the lever, the chain deconstructs but remains attached to the creature.  The same also happens if you chain up a creature then manually deconstruct the chain.  If you examine the creature you will find that the creature has the chain listed in its inventory, in the 'neck' position.  I don't know what happens with creatures that don't have a neck.  The chain does not get duplicated.  If you do this repeatedly, you can end up with a creature with multiple chains or ropes attached to its neck.

Also, science demands the question - Will this chain provide any protection from attacks?

A very interesting question.  I don't know the answer, someone should test this.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: zx.pr0jk# on June 17, 2011, 09:21:35 am
Since goblin Invaders don't(from what I can tell) break free of a Civy grip when transporting, is it as important to have the goblin stockpile adjacent to the chain?

Will it break loose during the chaining job? If chained successfully, will the Goblin immediately turn and attack the Dwarf in range(and any subsequent dwarves in range if say I put a goblin free range jail at my scorching entrance)? I don't have much experience with chains, but now plan to use them a great deal.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Girlinhat on June 17, 2011, 09:39:36 am
A goblin soldier will not break free.  A goblin thief/babysnatcher will break free almost immediately.  But a spearman, you can cage them in the dining hall and a dwarf will gladly drag the goblin through the calm dining patrons without any trouble.  Once caged, the creature isn't on the map, but sort of "in limbo" in the cage.  Once chained, however, they have their pathfinding limited.  They will gladly attack anything within their 3x3 range, and will cause civilians to flee in terror, and military to attack.

A deconstructed/levered chain will create a loose chain on the floor and a "ghost image" on the creature's neck.  The one on the creature isn't actually anything, and makes no difference.

Thoughts: Start a fortress, chain and deconstruct an animal.  Use DFHack to become an adventurer, and attack said animal in the neck, or attempt to grapple with the chain.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Funburns on June 18, 2011, 04:33:42 am
A bit of an old reply, but...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I just idea'd! What if a 2x1x1 chamber with a nest box on one side and a serpent on the other were constructed so that each square had one pump constantly feeding it water and another constantly taking it away? The tiles would rapidly alternate between 0/7 and 1-7/7 depending how the intake was fed, which might be enough to somehow make the nest boxes available for serpent use long enough for one to claim it.

It probably wouldn't work, though, because the box will, at any given step of game time, be either dry and inaccessible to the serpent, or wet and disabled. Perhaps water disabling a nest box takes more than one step to occur? Could the unusually fast speed of water pumping confuse the game enough to allow this, through some method I'm not aware of? Maybe whether the nest box is built with absorbent materials was made to matter for this, even though holding booze and liquid water are two entirely different game mechanics? I just hate to see serpent farming go on the back burner.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: DG on August 01, 2011, 07:08:18 am
While wasting time in the wiki I followed a link to this remarkable thread. I was quickly inspired to honour Sphalerite's contribution to dwarven science.

All great science deserves to be commemorated with great art. It's a slow work day so I've put my ball point to some use.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on August 01, 2011, 07:31:19 am
Haha, that's awesome.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: davros on December 10, 2011, 05:35:40 pm
Everything in this topic is awesome. It needs a sticky.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: MagmaMcFry on December 10, 2011, 05:42:21 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_%28Internet%29#Necrobumps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_%28Internet%29#Necrobumps)
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Mobotium on December 21, 2011, 01:53:55 pm
Humm, this gave me an Idea, Il go and make a invader race that breaths underwater, make some sharks and sea-serpents as pets and do a uber underwater batle!

Nice thread btw, extremely dwarfy  ;)
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: gunnarig on December 21, 2011, 06:20:39 pm
God of the ocean! i suggest turning on invasions again and make a moat with white sharks in them it is something i have wet dreams about :P
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Ifeno on December 22, 2011, 01:18:45 am
one of the greatest threads ive read in a looooong time
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Zinc23 on December 22, 2011, 02:06:16 am
I think that Sphalerite...   Is GOD.  Nah, just kidding.  But this is MAAAAAGMAAAA worthy were necro still here.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Karakzon on December 22, 2011, 11:37:56 am
small thought: if you got wild crundles set up in a simular breeding programn, had the crundle babys run off into an antichamber whos floor was a bridge, then retract said bride so they fall into your tame GCS pen, would that make an efficient silk farm?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Wannazzaki on December 22, 2011, 11:46:21 am
In the same way chaining a goblin up and having GCS's fire at it through fortifications is
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on December 22, 2011, 11:46:39 am
Can't breed wild crundles in the current version.  Crundles are egg-layers, and only tame animals will claim nest boxes.

It's also impossible to breed sea serpents in the current version without modding, since nest boxes don't work underwater.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Karakzon on December 22, 2011, 01:13:48 pm
ah right. some sort of small harmless animal is required xP but i think the princable is the same.
-i tried the fortifications one, and others, dindt work. i dislike getting my cutsy wootsy giant venom driping horror of the deap hurt-
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on December 22, 2011, 01:18:04 pm
I haven't tried silk farming yet, but I have heard that a GCS won't spray silk at something it can't path to.  If there is no path from the GCS to your dropped animals, it won't shoot at them, even if it can see them through fortifications.  There are ways around this, I've seen some plans for GCS silk farms that use locked doors or something similar so that the GCS thinks there's a path to the target.  I'd try it out myself, but I have yet to encounter a single GCS in any of the forts I've run in the current version.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Karakzon on December 22, 2011, 01:21:06 pm
ususaly if you go down to the second and third cavern levels, and just lay cage traps everywere, and i mean everywere, youll eventualy get them :)

and yeah for the pathing issue thats why i decided: Drawbridge drop onto free spiders, since its just the young. That way: Meat, bones and web all in one go.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Stopkilling0 on November 29, 2012, 12:06:52 am
Took me forever to find something like this. And just wow. My ocean drain sieve thing didn't work either, but this is a work of art my friend. I will attempt to implement your ideas in the new version shortly... flooding the now working world with serpents, muhahaha!
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Squeegy on January 16, 2013, 07:31:48 pm
Wow. This is goddamn amazing. People here make some crazy projects.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: parlor_tricks on January 17, 2013, 01:41:36 am
S-S-S-SSSUPPPPAAAHHH NECRO!

Honestly, the first 3 posts on this page are all from separate *YEARS*.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Squeegy on January 17, 2013, 11:45:38 am
That doesn't actually mean it's a necro. Also, who cares?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: slowpokez on January 17, 2013, 03:30:36 pm
Oh since someone else decided to "necro" this one I just wanna say that this might be my favorite thread and it's the reason why I started playing Df in the first place <3
Among many great feats such as hunting whales with ballistas and abusing mermaids I still view this one as Sphalerites finest work of !!science!!  :D
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: JAFANZ on January 17, 2013, 05:14:27 pm
I believe that the fact that teaming Dr Bunsen Honeydew with The Swedish Chef & then providing them with hundreds of clones of Beaker (albiet all called "Urist" for some reason) is considered Best Practice was one of the original main selling points of this game for me.

The other one of course was "Dwarfputing".
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: GuesssWho on January 28, 2013, 10:56:30 pm
Lovely, lovely. Does this work in the current version?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on January 28, 2013, 11:02:56 pm
Sea Serpents can't breed anymore since Toady made them lay eggs, because nest boxes are unusable when underwater.  If you mod Sea Serpents to not lay eggs, then you can still breed them.  I'm not sure how or if taming them works with the new taming rules, but you should be able to breed them without taming them.

That's as of 34.07 at least, I haven't gotten around to downloading and trying any more recent versions.  I'm still around, I just have very little time available for playing DF these days.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: i2amroy on January 29, 2013, 12:45:01 am
Sea Serpents can't breed anymore since Toady made them lay eggs, because nest boxes are unusable when underwater.  If you mod Sea Serpents to not lay eggs, then you can still breed them.  I'm not sure how or if taming them works with the new taming rules, but you should be able to breed them without taming them.
I believe you can tame them since dwarves will tame creatures in cages. Training them once they start to go wild again is impossible though, so make sure that you only tame young ones so they go straight to being permanently domestic.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Thundercraft on February 23, 2013, 06:29:41 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_%28Internet%29#Necrobumps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_%28Internet%29#Necrobumps)

A couple points:

First, this link is now broken because the page on "Bump the Internet" (and the reference to "necrobumps" it contained) has been deleted. It seems like the editors at Wikipedia did not think it was factual or important enough.

Second, only 4 months passed between posts at the point you complain. This pales in comparison to the next page, where years pass. Posts literally jump from 2011 to 2012 to 2013.

Third, who cares? :P

S-S-S-SSSUPPPPAAAHHH NECRO!

Topics such as this and the I killed a bronze colossus, and you'll never guess how (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=56935.150;topicseen) thread are simply too awesome to confine to a silly "necrobumping" rule.

I think we should be able to post to pay homage to the sheer dwarfy epicness of these historical achievements! To deny that is to deny our inner dwarf.

I'm not the only one to feel that way. And, frankly, it'd be a shame to see topics like this remain buried under newer topics and forgotten, where newer DF players might never see them.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: slowpokez on February 23, 2013, 07:37:36 pm
@Thundercraft
And that's why we have the hall of legends.
Or did I fail to understand the purpose of your post?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: TheFlame52 on February 23, 2013, 08:25:02 pm
Unfortunately you cannot breed sea monsters as they have no genders. Also you can flood the enclosed, elf-filled trade depot and release the sea serpents. If the water doesn't get them, THE SEA SERPENTS WILL!
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Nil Eyeglazed on February 24, 2013, 06:04:38 am
I don't think that this is a forum where "necro!" is pejorative :)  I've had a good time looking far back in the past, and love seeing the best threads resurrected occasionally.

Definitely, Sphalerite is the kind of person who most often takes the form of a male dwarf, and is associated with oceans and fire.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: NRDL on February 24, 2013, 06:12:47 am
This is old, and this is awesome. 

I have a question.  I wanna make a Captain Ahab-esque spear user, and have him fight titanic battles with creatures from the depths of the ocean.  But the ocean seems empty.  How do you find sea serpents, whales, sharks, and stuff? 
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: MagmaMcFry on February 24, 2013, 06:18:01 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_%28Internet%29#Necrobumps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_%28Internet%29#Necrobumps)

A couple points:

First, this link is now broken because the page on "Bump the Internet" (and the reference to "necrobumps" it contained) has been deleted. It seems like the editors at Wikipedia did not think it was factual or important enough.

Second, only 4 months passed between posts at the point you complain. This pales in comparison to the next page, where years pass. Posts literally jump from 2011 to 2012 to 2013.
So you learned that 1) the importance of things on the Internet can change over time, and 2) people listened to me when I was posting? What's your point?

Quote
S-S-S-SSSUPPPPAAAHHH NECRO!

Topics such as this and the I killed a bronze colossus, and you'll never guess how (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=56935.150;topicseen) thread are simply too awesome to confine to a silly "necrobumping" rule.

I think we should be able to post to pay homage to the sheer dwarfy epicness of these historical achievements! To deny that is to deny our inner dwarf.

I'm not the only one to feel that way. And, frankly, it'd be a shame to see topics like this remain buried under newer topics and forgotten, where newer DF players might never see them.
Like slowpokez said, there is the Hall of Legends, and I believe there is a link to this thread on the wiki. And the only proper way to pay homage to historical achievements is to do even greater achievements. Just placing a "Like" is kinda lame, don't you think so too?

This is old, and this is awesome. 

I have a question.  I wanna make a Captain Ahab-esque spear user, and have him fight titanic battles with creatures from the depths of the ocean.  But the ocean seems empty.  How do you find sea serpents, whales, sharks, and stuff? 
If you want sea animals to arrive, you have to stop land animals from arriving. Either you can hunt land animals to extinction, which can take a while, or you block off all land borders with drawbridges or similar.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: NRDL on February 24, 2013, 06:19:30 am
I'm in adventure mode.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: MagmaMcFry on February 24, 2013, 06:23:45 am
I'm in adventure mode.
In that case I have no idea. Never seen a sea creature in adventure mode before.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Sphalerite on February 24, 2013, 10:34:49 am
I have a question.  I wanna make a Captain Ahab-esque spear user, and have him fight titanic battles with creatures from the depths of the ocean.  But the ocean seems empty.  How do you find sea serpents, whales, sharks, and stuff?

In fortress mode, or in adventure mode?  In fortress mode, sea creatures and land creatures compete against the same limit of how many creature groups can be one the map at a time, and (above-ground) land creatures seem to be greatly favored when the game is deciding what to spawn next.  To get more sea creatures, you need to prevent land creatures from spawning.  Either hunt all land creatures to extinction, or block all the surface map edges with raised bridges so nothing can spawn on land.  In adventure mode?  I don't know, didn't play it long enough to learn the spawn rules that well, but I expect it would help to learn to swim very well and then spend a long time swimming far enough from land that the game isn't tracking any land animals.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Thundercraft on February 24, 2013, 03:09:53 pm
And that's why we have the hall of legends.
Or did I fail to understand the purpose of your post?

Honestly, I don't recall hearing about The Hall of Legends (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89305.0) until now.

After searching and finding it, I see why. It's located in the DF Community Games & Stories (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=14.0) area. I hardly ever read that portion.

Like slowpokez said, there is the Hall of Legends, and I believe there is a link to this thread on the wiki.

It's nice there's a link on the wiki. But a player would have to stumble across that by happenstance. And they can't ask new questions about how to find Sea Serpents/Monsters on the wiki. They can't discuss sea serpent farming there at all. Anyway, it's not the same as having important threads like this occasionally float up in unread posts (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=unread) or new replies (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=unreadreplies). And since my post, several others have joined in to ask or answer questions on the subject.

So you learned that 1) the importance of things on the Internet can change over time, and 2) people listened to me when I was posting? What's your point?

Wikipedia deleted it and I thought it was self-evident why: They did not think the concept was valid or important enough. And I feel the same way.

If a topic starter asks that a thread be "retired", I respect that. Though, so far, we have not seen Sphalerite make such a request with this thread. It's his project, so don't you think it should be his choice?

I try to avoid necro-bumping just because it is either frowned upon or against rules on many forums. But, it's always puzzled me. I've never understood why some people make such a big deal of that. Are they offended that other people wanted to continue a topic after they've had their say? Or is it that they hate having to sort through the updated topics list?

...And the only proper way to pay homage to historical achievements is to do even greater achievements. Just placing a "Like" is kinda lame, don't you think so too?

Says who?

There's plenty of friendly rivalry and an eagerness to share in this community and there's nothing wrong with that. But to tell others that the only "proper" way to show appreciation of someone's achievement is to try and outdo them and boast about it... don't you think that is kind of lame?

I don't see anything wrong with telling someone, "Hey, that's awesome!", "Nice work!" or even "That's incredibly dwarfy!" When someone does something like this, especially share the details of their experiments and going to lengths to help others, I think they deserve a congratulations - even if it comes belatedly.

To be honest, I first read this topic about 2 years ago. But while I found it fascinating reading, at the time I hadn't bothered to post my appreciation. That was the main reason for my post, to correct this.

And if it wasn't inferred by what I've already said:
Nice work, Sphalerite! This was brilliant stuff!  :D

But I also felt the need to voice my disapproval of criticizing the resurrection of this thread.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: GuesssWho on February 24, 2013, 06:42:42 pm
It's a masterwork thread, why lose it?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Itnetlolor on February 25, 2013, 01:58:23 am
I've had my own issues with (mostly unnecessary) necros regarding my megaproject, for simple, and most of the time pointless, posting. I actually bugged me quite a bit because I thought somebody was contributing something like their own ship, either modifying my model, or based on it or something; or even tips on how to do it more efficiently or whatever.

Nope, instead I was commented on how I pre-built it with lego, and that was all. And another lame question (which was already addressed in posts not too much earlier from it) was asked necroing it again. Once more, I felt misled. I addressed it in my own way, making a notification post, and leading to it from the OP for anyone new and old to see.

Personally, I was getting tired of my project being revived without any contributions, and left an ultimatum. Another pointless necro, and I lock the thread for good, and might not even take on the sequel while at it. Basically ensuring the next time it gets necro, it will be relevant, or contributing to the subject. Kinda rude on my part, but I had to address the problem my own way.

Here's the link to my post I made regarding the unnecessary necro problem if you're interested: Link (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=36955.msg2804622#msg2804622)
Think I was being a bit harsh with that post?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: GuesssWho on February 25, 2013, 04:21:19 am
Maybe just a bit. There's a difference between pointlessness and appreciation--and with a post like that you're just asking for human perversity, too. I had to stop myself from posting to ask something stupid just because I was told not to, and not everyone has a brain-to-mouth (hand?) filter.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: chaosgear on February 25, 2013, 11:27:13 am
I'm in adventure mode.
In that case I have no idea. Never seen a sea creature in adventure mode before.
He should make an Atlantean fortress, fill it with sea monsters, then explore it in adventure mode.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: Toady One on February 27, 2013, 12:18:48 am
I've been asked to come in here regarding overall thread necro policy.  Generally, I'd appreciate it if people didn't bump threads if they don't have something meaningful to contribute.  Sometimes that's just a matter of politeness, as in the case where the poster is the only one that thinks a topic is important, and annoyingly bumps it over and over.  For the more popular topics, there's still a lot of potential for trouble when the last posts are from years before -- people start to unwittingly quote them and continue long dead discussions, asking questions of posters that stopped looking long ago, and this leads to actual problems sometimes, especially if there's any room for offense in the old posts.  If you've got a related question to ask about a thread like this, it might be best to post your new thread and link the old one, but there's an awful large grey area, which is why people generally only get warnings for really egregious cases where they are obviously posting for attention or whatever.
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: GuesssWho on February 27, 2013, 09:30:43 pm
All hail the toad!

. . . is there any chance of underwater nest boxes working for underwater animals at some point, by the way?
Title: Re: On the farming of Sea Serpents
Post by: darkflagrance on February 27, 2013, 10:07:42 pm
I would hope a thread like this is relatively safe and harmless to necropost. For some creators of old, venerable threads (like myself ^_^) it's nice to see your old thread bumped again by new pilgrims!