Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Suggestions => Topic started by: Clatch on May 06, 2019, 02:57:10 pm
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To be frank, I've been on hiatus and totally missed the "Myth and Magic" update announcement. The idea that the next big update is a quality of life one is pretty exciting!
However, I am a little perplexed on the new theme title? I don't mind the flaming, but hear me out first.
It's been discussed several times about implementing a magic system. I've always thought that the implementation of such a system would ruin the DF experience. I can't even imagine what would happen at world creation with "spells" in the mix. I've always been endeared to DF because it is the only game out there that portrays a true Tolkienesk world, where magic is inherently evil and the destroyer everything good (i.e. quantitative easing). Tolkien himself was a veteran -- which, undeniably made a huge influence on the world he created.
Currently in DF all the magic-based tropes and borrowed similarities (e.i. necromancy, vampires and were creatures) are tied to opposing, evil forces. The reason these tropes are so old in literature is because of the psychological symbology these traits imbue. These real political and social-economical forces are great enough without the addition of the fantastical. Isn't myth derived from the "master works" that are erected in the face of these overwhelming odds? Those struggles in humanity was the foundation of Tolkein's world!
In that respect, I propose Myth and Beer -- or Myth and Metal.
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You'll probably be able to configure your world so that only evil magic exists.
The default experience will probably be more like irresponsible use of magic is dangerous. An example given was a fire-based spell/artifact that draws your fort closer to the plane of fire. It starts with small warning signs and ends with spontaneous !!FUN!! where your fort used to be.
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Tolkien did not write worlds in which magic was evil, just in which it was fading. Galadriel, Gandalf and so on used what we would consider magic - but it was not evil.
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Yes, the point of Mythgen is to make procedurally generated Lore to ensure every single world created is unique, as opposed to the generic Tolkien (plus flair) worlds that we have at the moment. I suggest you watch the video from GDC (probably in the links section) to see what the release is actually about. It's not an "add spells" patch.
https://youtu.be/49b7fUI7AEI
(This isn't a suggestions thread by the way, besides "scrap the plans for Dwarf Fortress").
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Yes, the point of Mythgen is to make procedurally generated Lore to ensure every single world created is unique, as opposed to the generic Tolkien (plus flair) worlds that we have at the moment.
When I refer to Tokienesk, please understand that I'm not referring to content. I'm not alluding that DF is in any way borrowing elements from that world. I understand that would minimize Toady's work. I'm only referring to the philosophical elements that made it a compelling and real environment -- of which DF does well.
I'm happy to hear that spells aren't being introduced in the patch -- but that is what the connotation of "Magic" gives me -- sorry. Toady has mentioned further developing a magic system in the past during radio presentations and such. Although I watched that video you linked a few years ago, I'll check it out again and try to figure out what you're referring to exactly.
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Yes, the point of Mythgen is to make procedurally generated Lore to ensure every single world created is unique, as opposed to the generic Tolkien (plus flair) worlds that we have at the moment.
When I refer to Tokienesk, please understand that I'm not referring to content. I'm not alluding that DF is in any way borrowing elements from that world. I understand that would minimize Toady's work. I'm only referring to the philosophical elements that made it a compelling and real environment -- of which DF does well.
I'm happy to hear that spells aren't being introduced in the patch -- but that is what the connotation of "Magic" gives me -- sorry. Toady has mentioned further developing a magic system in the past during radio presentations and such. Although I watched that video you linked a few years ago, I'll check it out again and try to figure out what you're referring to exactly.
It's not just an add spells patch. It's a major rewrite that will no doubt include "spells" as part of the development. There will be more magic besides necromancy for a start. With reasons why everything is as it is. But, as mentioned, all as customizable as possible. So you can probably remove anything positive.
Change is also a big feature. Magic dies out (Tolkien), comes back (some other literature) and can be effected by villains and adventurers.
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Change is also a big feature. Magic dies out (Tolkien), comes back (some other literature) and can be effected by villains and adventurers.
As I mentioned, I'm really excited to see the quality of life upgrades. Those in themselves will be quite a feat to tackle during a year or two year development cycle. Adding spells and such will change the world drastically and create even more of a workload for new tileset and sound updates. I guess I'm having a hard time understanding it. I've pretty much stated my thoughts on the matter though and don't intend to delve into any further. I'm just curious what the general consensus was.
I understand that there are many here looking forward to more variety. Anytime you introduce gluttony and instant gratification elements (such as spells are), the story line seems to suffer. The physics become less real and Toady has done an amazing job developing that. I'd just hate to see all that work thrown under the bus, because some people want the experience to be more familiar.
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Change is also a big feature. Magic dies out (Tolkien), comes back (some other literature) and can be effected by villains and adventurers.
As I mentioned, I'm really excited to see the quality of life upgrades. Those in themselves will be quite a feat to tackle during a year or two year development cycle. Adding spells and such will change the world drastically and create even more of a workload for new tileset and sound updates. I guess I'm having a hard time understanding it. I've pretty much stated my thoughts on the matter though and don't intend to delve into any further. I'm just curious what the general consensus was.
I understand that there are many here looking forward to more variety. Anytime you introduce gluttony and instant gratification elements (such as spells are), the story line seems to suffer. The physics become less real and Toady has done an amazing job developing that. I'd just hate to see all that work thrown under the bus, because some people want the experience to be more familiar.
All of this isn't starting until after Steam release is out and stable
Likely to take 2-3 years. That's why it's called the Big Wait.
(There's map rewrite being thrown in there too, which will take a while).
This will be really, really unfamiliar. Sliders will allow you to adjust how far out you want your world to be. Most random will be pure fantasy with randomly generated races and no Tolkien derivatives at all (including dwarves). Least Fantasy setting will have humans and fake mythology to drive their religions. And everything in between.
You might get "instant gratification fireballs" if the rng gods are on your side. Most likely you'll get "panicked dwarves can turn themselves into buckets, at the cost of half their lifespan".
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As Shonai said, you could set "Magic Prevalence" to "Low" for pretty much the current amount of it. Or both "Magic Prevalence" and "Magic Weirdness" to "Very High" for complete and utter chaos.
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As Shonai said, you could set "Magic Prevalence" to "Low" for pretty much the current amount of it. Or both "Magic Prevalence" and "Magic Weirdness" to "Very High" for complete and utter chaos.
To be fair the OP does seem to proposing that we be able to have magic, just evil magic. So simply getting rid of magic does not really cut it.
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As Shonai said, you could set "Magic Prevalence" to "Low" for pretty much the current amount of it. Or both "Magic Prevalence" and "Magic Weirdness" to "Very High" for complete and utter chaos.
To be fair the OP does seem to proposing that we be able to have magic, just evil magic. So simply getting rid of magic does not really cut it.
A fixed world editor is also part of MythGen releases. There you can have any type of world you like to very exact specifications.
The standard will be to procedurally generate systems though, which may end up with all evil magic worlds (or worlds that once had good magic, but Villains have messed things up).
I imagine you'll be able to control the balance of magic between "good" and "evil" races through modding though, spheres will presumably be influential.
Of course, Dwarves may be "evil" in some worlds too, I guess.
Anyhow, all speculation. Good to have this kind of opinion in the Suggestions forum though. It's not something which comes up often.
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Either way, you'll be perfectly able to create the kind of Tolkienesque world you want. Not sure why you'd want to deny others the freedom to create the kind of fantasy world they prefer just because you want things a particular way (and again, you'll be able to create your world that way if you want).
Not saying that's the impression you intended to give, just a warning that it's pretty easy to read that interpretation into the OP.
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I'm pretty sure most of the current DF magic is evil because the evil bits are easiest to program. There's been talk about Elf magic for years, but no implementation thereof because it involves terrain modification... Modeling zombies is pretty easy in comparison.
It's also, there's been talk about introducing more procedural stuff into the game, among which that you won't always be playing with Dwarves(multi-race forts are already easily possible right now).
I'm personally kind of excited about 'Princess Mononoke' style worlds/stories, or exploring haunted houses with my adventurer, or creating Hogwarts, or just climbing a world tree :D
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It's been discussed several times about implementing a magic system. I've always thought that the implementation of such a system would ruin the DF experience. I can't even imagine what would happen at world creation with "spells" in the mix.
Could be. We'll find out, and Toady has removed things before that were a problem (partially implemented economy).
I've always been endeared to DF because it is the only game out there that portrays a true Tolkienesk world, where magic is inherently evil and the destroyer everything good (i.e. quantitative easing). Tolkien himself was a veteran -- which, undeniably made a huge influence on the world he created.
Oh, I thought you were talking about J.R.R Tolkein, who wrote about the good in the world (magic) being corrupted by what he saw as evil (technology, racial inter-marriage, progress in general). Probably off his nut, but he wrote some stories that could have been good if they were shorter. Magic being an evil force like you're thinking sounds like someone else (who is probably just as bad).
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Oh, I thought you were talking about J.R.R Tolkein, who wrote about the good in the world (magic) being corrupted by what he saw as evil (technology, racial inter-marriage, progress in general). Probably off his nut, but he wrote some stories that could have been good if they were shorter. Magic being an evil force like you're thinking sounds like someone else (who is probably just as bad).
o.O Have you actually read anything of Tolkien's? Sure he equated the destructiveness of industry and how it ruins nature with evil to some extent (which one may or may not agree with, I don't see what's wrong with it personally), but racial inter-marriage being shown as evil, what? The story of Beren and Luthien if anything shows the opposite, with Thingol who is quite racist as first comes around when Beren proves to him that humans aren't a lesser people as he'd thought. Not sure if you mean the people of Númenor who after mingling with the people back on middle-earth lost their longevity, but that wasn't really an inter-racial thing either as the people they mingled with were of the same "race", just not of those who sailed off to Númenor and were blessed by the Valar, and the issue is more shown to be the attitude of those who percieve themselves as better. One might argue there were some slight racism with how most of the "easterners" sided with evil, but some of them were shown to be honorable as well and there wasn't a lack of evil men in all the other groups either. Don't really agree with the magic bit either, I'd say he makes it pretty clear that it's not magic that is evil but how you use it, but bit much to go into all of that.
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Oh, I thought you were talking about J.R.R Tolkein, who wrote about the good in the world (magic) being corrupted by what he saw as evil (technology, racial inter-marriage, progress in general). Probably off his nut, but he wrote some stories that could have been good if they were shorter. Magic being an evil force like you're thinking sounds like someone else (who is probably just as bad).
C.S Lewis maybe?
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Oh, I thought you were talking about J.R.R Tolkein, who wrote about the good in the world (magic) being corrupted by what he saw as evil (technology, racial inter-marriage, progress in general). Probably off his nut, but he wrote some stories that could have been good if they were shorter. Magic being an evil force like you're thinking sounds like someone else (who is probably just as bad).
Wot.
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Oh, I thought you were talking about J.R.R Tolkein, who wrote about the good in the world (magic) being corrupted by what he saw as evil (technology, racial inter-marriage, progress in general). Probably off his nut, but he wrote some stories that could have been good if they were shorter. Magic being an evil force like you're thinking sounds like someone else (who is probably just as bad).
C.S Lewis maybe?
This is really getting good! As long as "Magic" is a reference to a master work, I don't have a problem with it. Just as long as it doesn't end up as bits of paper floating lotterily into hapless dwarven hands. I have a enough problems with my clan already. :P
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90% sure Iduno is a troll, best not to engage them honestly.
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Can we not start a flame war in yet another suggestion thread?
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Can we not start a flame war in yet another suggestion thread?
Hence why I argue not to engage them.
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This is really getting good! As long as "Magic" is a reference to a master work, I don't have a problem with it. Just as long as it doesn't end up as bits of paper floating lotterily into hapless dwarven hands. I have a enough problems with my clan already. :P
C.S Lewis is more an example of a world with lots of magic, but mostly evil magic. While magical things happen to good characters that sometimes benefit them, they don't ever use magic as such unless they are evil or falling into evil. Tolkien's works are actually surprisingly mundane but with a highly magical background that is not widely used.
o.O Have you actually read anything of Tolkien's? Sure he equated the destructiveness of industry and how it ruins nature with evil to some extent (which one may or may not agree with, I don't see what's wrong with it personally), but racial inter-marriage being shown as evil, what? The story of Beren and Luthien if anything shows the opposite, with Thingol who is quite racist as first comes around when Beren proves to him that humans aren't a lesser people as he'd thought. Not sure if you mean the people of Númenor who after mingling with the people back on middle-earth lost their longevity, but that wasn't really an inter-racial thing either as the people they mingled with were of the same "race", just not of those who sailed off to Númenor and were blessed by the Valar, and the issue is more shown to be the attitude of those who percieve themselves as better. One might argue there were some slight racism with how most of the "easterners" sided with evil, but some of them were shown to be honorable as well and there wasn't a lack of evil men in all the other groups either. Don't really agree with the magic bit either, I'd say he makes it pretty clear that it's not magic that is evil but how you use it, but bit much to go into all of that.
No the magic is clearly good or bad. The whole point of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings is that no you cannot use 'bad' magic for good ends (the ring). Good magic however is pretty much summed up by one person, Gandalf who isn't really human. There aren't any examples of use of magical arts by any humans at all that are good I know of.
The racism part is simple, Tokien's works are racist and that is very simple. The reason this is very simple is the concept of the Numenor and their role in the story is a fairly straightforward replication of a racist idea. The superior race (of humans) arrives in Middle Earth (the explanations as to how they got superior are not relevant) and creates an advanced civilisation (Gondor) in which the regular human majority are ruled-over by the superior race. Because their superiority is biological the danger is they will mingle with inferior human stock and cause the decline of their nation, which is apparently what happens.
It is a very established racist idea, superior people make a superior civilisation which is imposed onto the inferior people and these inferior people dilute the superior people's superior blood through interbreeding causing the civilisation to decline.
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The essence of Tolkienian magic isn't that magic itself is good or evil, but rather that it is rare, powerful, and often subtle. In fact among the major players in LOTR it is fairly evenly balanced between good and evil: Gandalf against Saruman, Galadriel against Sauron (in the sense that both are masters over their respective domains). None of them are really human.
Some magic is intrinsically evil, like the Ring and Morgul-blades, but a great deal of it is neutral, like the Palantir, and most elven-made things are good-aligned (or at least painful to evil).
The villains get more stage time because they are focused on conquest while the good magic users are generally focused on preservation, and although evil is "winning" at the time the story takes place, they are close enough that the actions of mortals are able to break the stalemate.
This is what Toady means by a Tolkienian world, as opposed to a D&D type world where you can walk into a tavern and hire a fireball-throwing wizard who is in the same league of power as a sword-swinging warrior.
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No the magic is clearly good or bad. The whole point of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings is that no you cannot use 'bad' magic for good ends (the ring). Good magic however is pretty much summed up by one person, Gandalf who isn't really human. There aren't any examples of use of magical arts by any humans at all that are good I know of.
The racism part is simple, Tokien's works are racist and that is very simple. The reason this is very simple is the concept of the Numenor and their role in the story is a fairly straightforward replication of a racist idea. The superior race (of humans) arrives in Middle Earth (the explanations as to how they got superior are not relevant) and creates an advanced civilisation (Gondor) in which the regular human majority are ruled-over by the superior race. Because their superiority is biological the danger is they will mingle with inferior human stock and cause the decline of their nation, which is apparently what happens.
It is a very established racist idea, superior people make a superior civilisation which is imposed onto the inferior people and these inferior people dilute the superior people's superior blood through interbreeding causing the civilisation to decline.
I mean yeah, it certainly has racist themes, but that doesn't necessarily mean that his works are racist. Some people seem to not agree with that as far as fiction goes, but imo it's whether racism is portrayed as a good thing or not that matters. Racism and superiority is constantly shown to be a bad thing rather, the gift given to the Númenorians clearly being a mistake which leads to their corruption and downfall, and continuing to cause issues in middle-earth as well, keeping those apart who should have stood united against evil. The kin-strife in Gondor for example caused by the current king being percieved as a half-breed (his mother being one of the Northmen), leading to great losses before the cruel usurpers are eventually expelled (fear of mingling thus causing way greater damage to their civilization than the mingling ever would), paving the way for Saurons return as the Gondorians no longer had the strength to keep watch on the borders of Mordor. Sure, there was technically a "superior race", but more often than not it was shown to be a bad thing overall, Aragorn being an exception more than anything else (he had some skill in healing "magic" btw, which is probably the only direct form of magic shown by any humans in the stories).
Pretty off topic though so yeah, I've said my piece, feel free to disagree as I'm sure you will ^^
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No the magic is clearly good or bad.
In the first chapter of Fellowship, Bilbo hands out magical toys as birthday presents; were those 'good' toys or 'bad' toys?
There aren't any examples of use of magical arts by any humans at all that are good I know of.
For a big, splashy example: Aragorn summons and commands an army of the Dead to save Middle-earth from the forces of evil.
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To give it more nuance, if Gandalf casts a spell summoning light, is it good or bad magic?
if Saruman casts a spell summoning light, is it good or bad magic?
As for humans wielding magic, most can't. So it's hard to give an example. Denethor, however, had far-sight of a form - the alignment of this power was determined by his own personality.
The racism part is simple, Tokien's works are racist and that is very simple. The reason this is very simple is the concept of the Numenor and their role in the story is a fairly straightforward replication of a racist idea. The superior race (of humans) arrives in Middle Earth (the explanations as to how they got superior are not relevant) and creates an advanced civilisation (Gondor) in which the regular human majority are ruled-over by the superior race. Because their superiority is biological the danger is they will mingle with inferior human stock and cause the decline of their nation, which is apparently what happens.
It is a very established racist idea, superior people make a superior civilisation which is imposed onto the inferior people and these inferior people dilute the superior people's superior blood through interbreeding causing the civilisation to decline.
Yes, it is simple to the point of reductio ad absurdum. The entire point of Tolkien's world is that magic is in decline - and this ushers in a new age. The elves are in decline, Gondor is in decline, and the Age which is being ushered in is the Age of Men - not the Numenor. As the old fades, the new grows. The weakness of Gondor leads to the growing strength of Rohan, the barbaric horsemen who are racially inferior to the Gondorians... and who are nonetheless as noble, arguably more noble, and just as valuable as the Gondorians.
To give a speculum (mirror) - Bilbo and Frodo, Merry, Pippin, all these key characters are racially inferior in every way. And they are the strongest characters in all the ways that matter.
I repeat, you can reduce a work as vast and nuanced as Tolkien's to simplistic themes, but do so at your own peril.
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To give a speculum (mirror) - Bilbo and Frodo, Merry, Pippin, all these key characters are racially inferior in every way. And they are the strongest characters in all the ways that matter.
This is why the current version of dwarf fortress for me is worthy of a dissertation. Forgive me if I muddy the waters. Maybe someone can reign this in? I'll be the first to admit I'm a bit burned out from failed master works. ;D
Again I make reference to Tolkien, not because I believe DF borrows elements from that world. Tolkien is not about racism, it's about tribalism which is completely different. Likewise, the minimal fantastical elements that DF includes (i.e. vampires and necromancy) are symbolic of failed value systems that eventually corrupt and destroy a thriving society. Generally these value systems are associated with greed, which DF overtly portrays as the core mechanic. Value systems that maintain societal growth and preservation have already been here. There isn't anything "new" under the sun.
As the dwarf digs deeper in his greed, he also uncovers further elements that are animistic in nature which provide additional challenges. A clan can survive well on its own and be completely self sufficient. If they expose themselves to the world with trade, other value systems creep in and change the dynamics. Each random iteration of how this develops is believable and interesting. For me personally it is one of the main attractions.
Racism is a relatively new term in the political arena. This thing about identity politics is relatively a new set of value systems emerging that really were only just starting when Tolkien began his work. Tolkien is about tribalism.
The idea of identity where everyone is a god and can determine a new set of values that everyone else must accept is kin to this modern "magical" thinking age. Regardless of how magic is introduced, DF is hinged on a random roguelike engine. The introduction of more magic to this world will eventually bring such chaos that DF will be rendered broken and unplayable.
DF isn't a dungeon crawl. It's a history generator that can be interacted with in a meaningful way. The introduction of the more modern concepts will break it. For example, in a sense, the single player mode of DF shares more qualities kin to an archeologist than the arcane. With DF, a player can make a societal impact on the world that can be uncovered and contended with by future generations. It is how the dialogue of value systems are maintained -- through tribalism. Longevity is based on maintained value systems -- not magic or corruption of them.
With the introduction of identity politics in this mix, eventually society would never understand history and chaos is eventually assumed. It is the whole bases on the ancient city or tower of Babylon where the languages were confused. Whether that story is taken literally or as an allegory, it is about self preservation of society. Even though the Internet has reversed this process, it doesn't invalidate this historical reference.
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Magic being an evil force like you're thinking sounds like someone else (who is probably just as bad).
C.S Lewis maybe?
Lewis had magic-users both good (Aslan, a direct stand-in for God), evil (the White Witch, as well as the Calormen god who is a less-clear parallel for Allah), and neutral (the human Earth magician who created magic rings allowing interplanar travel). I can't recall any instances of magic being used for Good purposes except by Aslan, though, so Lewis was probably echoing the common theme of "all magic that does not come from God is inherently evil" that was even more ubiquitous then than it is now.
90% sure Iduno is a troll, best not to engage them honestly.
I doubt he's deliberately trolling. Apart from his inexplicable mention of interracial marriage (which was definitely incorrect), his views are largely matters of personal taste. Not even Tolkien could have pleased everybody.
Good magic however is pretty much summed up by one person, Gandalf who isn't really human.
And Galadriel, and Elrond, and Saruman (important to emphasize that he was Good for 99.9% of his career, we saw only his downfall), and almost certainly the other Istari as well. Tom Bombadil is most likely of Neutral alignment, although his magical acts that we witness are indeed Good (or at least anti-Evil).
There aren't any examples of use of magical arts by any humans at all that are good I know of.
The Fellowship visits the hilltop seat of Amon Hen, a stone throne built & enchanted by men of Gondor. While sitting in the chair, Frodo is able to see places & events at great distances; Amon Hen is essentially a high-powered magical telescope. On the other side of the river stands another hilltop throne, its twin of Amon Lhaw, which does exactly the same thing, but with sound instead of light. A magical high-powered directional microphone. While these artifacts are admittedly not inherently Good, they are at least defensive: Placed just inside Gondor's border to detect approaching threats. Such magical technology could almost certainly have been deployed in a more offensive/intrusive position, but they chose to keep it in their own backyard.
The superior race (of humans) arrives in Middle Earth (the explanations as to how they got superior are not relevant) and creates an advanced civilisation (Gondor) in which the regular human majority are ruled-over by the superior race. Because their superiority is biological the danger is they will mingle with inferior human stock and cause the decline of their nation, which is apparently what happens.
1. The reason for Numenorean superiority is very relevant: They were granted longer lifespans by Illuvatar, and taught various arts by the Elves of Valinor. In other words, their superiority was not innate, it was a gift--a gift which, incidentally, the Numenoreans had done little or nothing to earn.
2. The only thing "biological" about their superiority is their lifespan, and even that's not much of a hard wall. Sure, you could say, "the less-cultured Men couldn't learn magic because it takes like 50 years of practice to be able to cast even a simple spell," but of course the flip side of that is "the Numenoreans didn't learn magic because nobody wanted to waste 50 years of their life, so they all got real jobs instead."
3. The declines of Gondor and Arnor weren't caused by intermarrying with the locals, they were caused by poor structural & military decisions. Earnur Last-King of Gondor rode away to deal with an invasion of Easterlings without leaving an heir at home, and the king of Arnor split his realm into three to divide between his sons--the resulting smaller kingdoms were nationalist & didn't have each others' backs, enabling the Witch-king of Angmar to defeat them one at a time.
Tolkien is not about racism, it's about tribalism which is completely different.
Precisely. Sure, Boromir believes that his nation is the greatest realm in the world, and that he himself is its greatest son--but the exact same could be said of Legolas, or Gimli, or (after he got Back Again) Bilbo, or (at least the "greatest son" part) Aragorn. Every major character knows and respects his own ancestry, his own homeland, and his own people. And while Tolkien's works do contain racist themes (how could they not, when it's literally Elves vs. Orcs), they also contain enough counter-examples to balance it out: Like Boromir claiming that the Men of Gondor are the strongest & noblest people in the world when there's a bunch of Elves right there, and how the enmity between Dwarves & Elves has always caused nothing but trouble for both of them.
But enough of racism, this is a magic thread. And while the concepts of "good" magic and "evil" magic are worth discussing, what I find more interesting by far is the idea of sphere-based magic, where Good and Evil are purely subject to interpretation. And to cater it to Clatch's original suggestion, we could make certain races (the playable ones) able to access magic primarily though faith-based sources (gods) or research & experimentation (libraries, slabs). This would be very familiar to players of almost any RPG. Meanwhile, other races (night trolls, blendecs, etc.) could get their magical abilities through natural sources--most likely tied to and powered by the sphere(s) controlling the biomes in which they live. If the occurrence/intensity of each of these two (or even better, three) types of magic could be controlled by worldgen settings, it would be easy as pie to create a world in which vampires & werebeasts roam freely, but praying fervently to one's gods and studying the secrets of life & death do nothing.
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Magic = Identity Politics? k
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Magic = Identity Politics? k
I think the idea is that Magic will speed up globalization because it will influence values in cultures, which in turn means cultures change so rapidly it isn't possible to have cultural history, and due lack of that you get individualism/identitypol, but I am somewhat lost why it would be magic doing this, and not bards or histfigs traveling around, esp. as the biggest df world is what, the size of england, wales?
On top of that, I feel that maybe this view in itself is very eurocentric and especially modern, most history has been focused around great figures far more than it was about great cultures(as this is something nationalism fabricated from great-figures style history). Definitely most operas and epic poetry is about great figures with strong stances clashing with one another... Not to mention the way DF structures populations is around abstracted populations(entity pops) and great figures that change the course of history(histfigs), so yeah...
But yeah, I haven't been much participating in this thread because there's just a bit too much... angst.
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I look forwards to seeing how far history can go from earth-style history when we throw in absolute bullshit physics aka magic. What does happen when any dwarf can turn into a bucket and any goblin can explode into a fireball when they get too horny? Ideally, myths will vary and make magic vary which in turn will make history really vary.
Remember, DF isn't a world. DF is a world generator. The more different and off-the-wall bonkers the worlds it can make, the better it'll be at its job.
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I mean yeah, it certainly has racist themes, but that doesn't necessarily mean that his works are racist. Some people seem to not agree with that as far as fiction goes, but imo it's whether racism is portrayed as a good thing or not that matters. Racism and superiority is constantly shown to be a bad thing rather, the gift given to the Númenorians clearly being a mistake which leads to their corruption and downfall, and continuing to cause issues in middle-earth as well, keeping those apart who should have stood united against evil. The kin-strife in Gondor for example caused by the current king being percieved as a half-breed (his mother being one of the Northmen), leading to great losses before the cruel usurpers are eventually expelled (fear of mingling thus causing way greater damage to their civilization than the mingling ever would), paving the way for Saurons return as the Gondorians no longer had the strength to keep watch on the borders of Mordor. Sure, there was technically a "superior race", but more often than not it was shown to be a bad thing overall, Aragorn being an exception more than anything else (he had some skill in healing "magic" btw, which is probably the only direct form of magic shown by any humans in the stories).
Pretty off topic though so yeah, I've said my piece, feel free to disagree as I'm sure you will ^^
The issue here is the difference between being good and being superior. If you depict some of your racially superior beings as evil that does not change the fact that you are still maintaining the general hierarchy.
In the first chapter of Fellowship, Bilbo hands out magical toys as birthday presents; were those 'good' toys or 'bad' toys?
Or were they just technological?
For a big, splashy example: Aragorn summons and commands an army of the Dead to save Middle-earth from the forces of evil.
The army of the dead are evil and Aragorn did not create them. They existed because they were cursed traitors/cowards and the result of Aragorn's turning them to the good and redeeming them is that they go away.
Yes, it is simple to the point of reductio ad absurdum. The entire point of Tolkien's world is that magic is in decline - and this ushers in a new age. The elves are in decline, Gondor is in decline, and the Age which is being ushered in is the Age of Men - not the Numenor. As the old fades, the new grows. The weakness of Gondor leads to the growing strength of Rohan, the barbaric horsemen who are racially inferior to the Gondorians... and who are nonetheless as noble, arguably more noble, and just as valuable as the Gondorians.
To give a speculum (mirror) - Bilbo and Frodo, Merry, Pippin, all these key characters are racially inferior in every way. And they are the strongest characters in all the ways that matter.
I repeat, you can reduce a work as vast and nuanced as Tolkien's to simplistic themes, but do so at your own peril.
The actual story does not dwell very much on the higher-men lower-men situation, except vaguely with Aragorn and even then his political rival Denethor is also Numenorean as well. It is very much hidden in the backstory, except in the few cases it is referenced in the story (did Elrond talk about the blood of Numenor being spent in the books or just in the films?)
The passing of ages is not being depicted as an advancement but as a degeneration on what came before.
Lewis had magic-users both good (Aslan, a direct stand-in for God), evil (the White Witch, as well as the Calormen god who is a less-clear parallel for Allah), and neutral (the human Earth magician who created magic rings allowing interplanar travel). I can't recall any instances of magic being used for Good purposes except by Aslan, though, so Lewis was probably echoing the common theme of "all magic that does not come from God is inherently evil" that was even more ubiquitous then than it is now.
Aslan isn't human and doesn't use magic, but more simply *is* magical and inhuman. The White Witch is very much evil and uses magic extensively, not sure if she's human but the good side does not use their own magic in the sense of fireballs and lightning bolts to counter her explicit magical ability to turn people to stone.
And Galadriel, and Elrond, and Saruman (important to emphasize that he was Good for 99.9% of his career, we saw only his downfall), and almost certainly the other Istari as well. Tom Bombadil is most likely of Neutral alignment, although his magical acts that we witness are indeed Good (or at least anti-Evil).
True, but none of those were human.
The Fellowship visits the hilltop seat of Amon Hen, a stone throne built & enchanted by men of Gondor. While sitting in the chair, Frodo is able to see places & events at great distances; Amon Hen is essentially a high-powered magical telescope. On the other side of the river stands another hilltop throne, its twin of Amon Lhaw, which does exactly the same thing, but with sound instead of light. A magical high-powered directional microphone. While these artifacts are admittedly not inherently Good, they are at least defensive: Placed just inside Gondor's border to detect approaching threats. Such magical technology could almost certainly have been deployed in a more offensive/intrusive position, but they chose to keep it in their own backyard.
No, they don't use the seeing stones anymore because to do so is wrong and will lead to them being corrupted by Sauron. As happens with Saruman. So the seeing stones are evil, but in a more subtle way that appears to be neutral and eventually the good side learns this is so and abandons the use of them.
1. The reason for Numenorean superiority is very relevant: They were granted longer lifespans by Illuvatar, and taught various arts by the Elves of Valinor. In other words, their superiority was not innate, it was a gift--a gift which, incidentally, the Numenoreans had done little or nothing to earn.
2. The only thing "biological" about their superiority is their lifespan, and even that's not much of a hard wall. Sure, you could say, "the less-cultured Men couldn't learn magic because it takes like 50 years of practice to be able to cast even a simple spell," but of course the flip side of that is "the Numenoreans didn't learn magic because nobody wanted to waste 50 years of their life, so they all got real jobs instead."
3. The declines of Gondor and Arnor weren't caused by intermarrying with the locals, they were caused by poor structural & military decisions. Earnur Last-King of Gondor rode away to deal with an invasion of Easterlings without leaving an heir at home, and the king of Arnor split his realm into three to divide between his sons--the resulting smaller kingdoms were nationalist & didn't have each others' backs, enabling the Witch-king of Angmar to defeat them one at a time.
1. I said it is irrelevant because the important thing is that their superiority is innate *now* not that it was originally a gift. Their superiority is hereditary and passed down and just like the superiority of white people in racism is also threatened by interbreeding with the lesser kinds of human.
2. There is also the 'ruling' part, they don't lose their authority over the lesser men because they simply did but because they interbred with lesser men and hence degenerated. The remaining pure Numenoreans (like Aragorn and Denethor) are still recognised as the rightful rulers by Gondor.
3. That is probably the true reason, but this is not the given reason in the text; so their bad decisions are plausibly the result of their blood being corrupted by lesser men. Tolkien does not challenge the racist logic he created, he rather sidelines it by making the Numenoreans less than relevant to the present day.
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Amon Hen and Amon Rhaw are not seats of the Palantir, they're just an unspecified old magic of gondor. The reason that they're abandoned is because gondor withdrew from that area due to being unable to support settlements that far out any longer.
Also the Palantir are only dangerous if you use them to look at Mordor apparently (Which both Denethor and Saruman explicitly did iirc), because Gildor (The elf Frodo meets in the Shire) is on his way to the White Towers to gaze at the stars with the Palantir there.
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Magic = Identity Politics? k
Any new concept introduced that isn't generated from hard work and relentless ingenuity is magic.
As an example, the philosophical discussion Tolkien introduces is kin to the Federal Reserve. That is, where wealth is generated from speech and public perception rather than tangible assets. For me, Smaug was more frightening than Sauron - if only for the reason that the wealth he accumulated was real - so was the devastation he left behind.
Sauron's sphere of influence had to be entered into by the protagonists. The more it was used, possession occurred. Rather than an outward manifestation by tangible works, it was more about the war over the human spirit. Those who dealt in the unnatural were under its influence and the practitioners certainly weren't necessarily happier because of it. Even Gandalf expressed trepidation over the use of magic.
I.E. The Hobbit was cool. The Lord of the Rings trilogy felt more like a soap opera.
No, they don't use the seeing stones anymore because to do so is wrong and will lead to them being corrupted by Sauron. As happens with Saruman. So the seeing stones are evil, but in a more subtle way that appears to be neutral and eventually the good side learns this is so and abandons the use of them.
Right! That seemed completely obvious to me too. When the D&D crap gets dumped into the DF universe, my argument isn't necessarily so much about the argument over good vs evil -- it's more about the thrill kill. Wouldn't you want that kind of precious development time being spent on the tangible DF universe and the politics that are currently shaping it? Dumping magic into the mix will reshape this universe so badly, no amount of bug-fixing or leveling stool legs will fix it.
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In the first chapter of Fellowship, Bilbo hands out magical toys as birthday presents; were those 'good' toys or 'bad' toys?
Or were they just technological?
There were toys the like of which they had never seen before, all beautiful and some obviously magical.
For a big, splashy example: Aragorn summons and commands an army of the Dead to save Middle-earth from the forces of evil.
The army of the dead are evil and Aragorn did not create them. They existed because they were cursed traitors/cowards and the result of Aragorn's turning them to the good and redeeming them is that they go away.
Summoning and commanding the dead is considered magic in Dwarf Fortress and pretty much every fantasy world, except, apparently, your own.
No, they don't use the seeing stones anymore because to do so is wrong and will lead to them being corrupted by Sauron. As happens with Saruman. So the seeing stones are evil, but in a more subtle way that appears to be neutral and eventually the good side learns this is so and abandons the use of them.
‘A struggle somewhat grimmer for my part than the battle of the Hornburg,’ answered Aragorn. ‘I have looked in the Stone of Orthanc, my friends.’
‘You have looked in that accursed stone of wizardry!’ exclaimed Gimli with fear and astonishment in his face. ‘Did you say aught to - him? Even Gandalf feared that encounter.’
‘You forget to whom you speak,’ said Aragorn sternly, and his eyes glinted. ‘Did I not openly proclaim my title before the doors of Edoras? What do you fear that I should say to him? Nay, Gimli,’ he said in a softer voice, and the grimness left his face, and he looked like one who has laboured in sleepless pain for many nights. ‘Nay, my friends, I and the lawful master of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it, or so I judged. The right cannot be doubted. The strength was enough - barely.’
He drew a deep breath. ‘It was a bitter struggle, and the weariness is slow to pass. I spoke no word to him, and in the end I wrenched the Stone to my own will. That alone he will find hard to endure. And he beheld me. Yes, Master Gimli, he saw me, but in other guise than you see me here. If that will aid him, then I have done ill. But I do not think so. To know that I lived and walked the earth was a blow to his heart, I deem; for he knew it not till now. The eyes in Orthanc did not see through the armour of Théoden; but Sauron has not forgotten Isildur and the sword of Elendil. Now in the very hour of his great designs the heir of Isildur and the Sword are revealed; for l showed the blade re-forged to him. He is not so mighty yet that he is above fear; nay, doubt ever gnaws him.’
‘But he wields great dominion, nonetheless,’ said Gimli; ‘and now he will strike more swiftly.’
‘The hasty stroke goes oft astray,’ said Aragorn. ‘We must press our Enemy, and no longer wait upon him for the move. See my friends, when I had mastered the Stone, I learned many things. A grave peril I saw coming unlooked-for upon Gondor from the South that will draw off great strength from the defence of Minas Tirith. If it is not countered swiftly, I deem that the City will be lost ere ten days be gone.’
Aragorn uses the "Stone of Orthanc" (palantír) to learn of and thwart Sauron's attack, ultimately saving Minas Tirith and Middle-earth. That he does so in direct opposition to Sauron's corrupting influence pretty clearly disproves both your "magic is inherently evil" and your "human's can't use magic" hypotheses.
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It's odd to see people lament Toady following his own design goals, which have been public IIRC since the project became public, saying that this will ruin the established feel of DF's world. Because the world of DF as we know it is mostly placeholder, a generic stand-in that will last until the fantasy world can be turned into a fantasy world generator.
If you prefer the placeholder version to the real thing, I honestly think you're following the wrong game.
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It's odd to see people lament Toady following his own design goals, which have been public IIRC since the project became public, saying that this will ruin the established feel of DF's world. Because the world of DF as we know it is mostly placeholder, a generic stand-in that will last until the fantasy world can be turned into a fantasy world generator.
If you prefer the placeholder version to the real thing, I honestly think you're following the wrong game.
Toady: I'm gonna create a supremely complex simulation that will procedurally generate any kind of fantasy world you can possibly imagine and have players take part and find their own stories. Imagine, an entire library of cheap, obscure fantasy novels in which YOU are the hero of every single one. It's gonna be awesome.
Voice of dissent: And you'll exclude the ones which have magic, right?
Toady: Well, sure, isn't that implied?
...
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I personally do believe magic needs to be mitigated (NOT having 95% of the world population become DnD style wizards unless one wishes to) , rigorous (Is coherent to history and is modelled to certain physical laws) and unique (unexpected !!FUN!!, Randomly generated systems)
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Toady has promised sliders for magic, so that seems to be a given (at least as I understand it).
Again, the gist of it is that Tolkienesque worlds will be possible for those who want them, so I'm still not sure why anyone's complaining.
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Toady has promised sliders for magic, so that seems to be a given (at least as I understand it).
Again, the gist of it is that Tolkienesque worlds will be possible for those who want them, so I'm still not sure why anyone's complaining.
It's perfectly understandable for people to be worried. It's the reason Toady went to great lengths to explain how he's making a fundamentally new world simulation to ensure all magic makes sense (to the inhabitants, not to us) and is adjustable. Procgen Lore as opposed to "adding spells" and all the fireball-dorf shenanigans that implies.