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Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: Quarque on August 14, 2017, 04:46:27 pm

Title: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: Quarque on August 14, 2017, 04:46:27 pm
So I have this fort going with population cap 7: five girls and two boys. A few years in, the female leader, Sodel Konosshis, says she personally values romance, but she is still calling Thikut Endokegath, the Brewer/Cook, a "friend". If asked about Sarvesh Ustuthalis the miner, she says she is "on friendly terms" with him.  :-\
And as the years go by, not only is my fortress failing to grow, but worse, I see Sodel slowly sinking into a depression. No luxury furnishment can offer consolation.
(I did assign one of the other dwarfgirls the custom profession of "gelder", hope this has nothing to do with it.)

The mission is clear: hot steamy dwarf love. My tavern clearly isn't cosy enough for them. I am thinking of building a ridiculously large new one with all brass floors, walls, tables and chairs, and lots of golden statues. If that doesn't bring a dwarf in the mood, I don't know what will. Ideas?
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: Witty on August 14, 2017, 07:06:05 pm
From what I understand, you actually want less space for your dwarves to mingle if you want them to develop relationships. They need to be on the same tile for a while to make friends and eventually partnerships - which is something they won't seek out naturally on their own. There's also a chance that the dwarf simply isn't interested in forming long term or even more casual relationships (pretty sure oreination is defined completely seperetly from a dwarf's personality).
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: Fleeting Frames on August 14, 2017, 07:12:00 pm
Same tile or adjacent tile (so eating at same table works, albeit tends to give minor bad thought on average), but yeah.

You need to check your girls and guys both have suitable orientation, personality and are within 10 years of age, Then lock them into 2x2 to 3x3 room for one-two seasons. It's entirely possible to have nobody in starting seven willing to marry - recently ran quick three-decade unrelated test fort in the background with no babies due that.
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: Quarque on August 15, 2017, 06:23:06 pm
Thanks for the info!

After crossing off age gaps, an asexual and one grudge, it turns out there are three potential matches. Time to set up some dates. Will build a dedicated dating room, very small with a nicely decorated bed.  :P
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: Gigaz on August 15, 2017, 11:59:30 pm
I've managed a few times to convince dwarfs to marry, but it works at most half of the time. I think the likelihood is higher if the couple has similar professions (like for example when they are both miners) but it could be coincidential.
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: Fleeting Frames on August 16, 2017, 03:08:30 am
They'll be happier to tie the knot if doing so is possible for the two if they share interests, yeah.
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 16, 2017, 03:32:42 am
The "dating room" should have two beds, one dedicated to each participant so it acts as their overlapping bedrooms as well. They'll sleep in their own beds, but at least one (or both) won't have to sleep on the floor.
Marriage encouragement suits work almost all the time for me, provided the candidates meet the following conditions:
- Of the same race (rather obvious)
- Willing to marry the opposite gender
- Not married (as widowed dwarves don't remarry)
- Max 10 years age difference
- Not related (rumors have it that only siblings are off limits, but those related fail the next line [and note that off fortress relations don't abide by either this or the age one: histfig relations are full of people who have a parent who's also a grand parent])
- Relations show at least one of them has at least a passing knowledge of the other (for some reason relations are not always mutual). Obviously, grudges result in automatic failure. This is my big stumbling stone, as I don't have any method to get them to recognize each other. I've seen suggestions and will try some in my next fortress.
- No indications they will refuse (abhor the though of marriage, etc). Extreme shyness etc. seems to make it take longer and have a greater risk of failure, but it's not an automatic failure condition.
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: Quarque on August 16, 2017, 05:21:04 am
Yeah maybe it doesn't work out for some reason, we will see. At least I know now that there are three potential couples that meet the basic conditions (compatible age and orientation, no grudge). Not sure about siblings.

If the dating fails it will still be fun, it will be a live dating show. 8) If it interests people I can post a report with the candidates, their emo profiles, the dating setup and the results later.
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: Fleeting Frames on August 16, 2017, 05:34:37 am
@PatrikLundell: On relations, I've read that cousins show up as such until marriage; their lover being hidden. I expect having met the others is hidden on similar basis.

I'm curious what the personalities are like for the ones who fail when they're not at least passing acquittance. I've had a few marriages fail to happen due personality (I've had friends and marriages both for even people with friendliness and friendship being both 1 tier from lowest, though I've also had people who just live in same nuptial suite, stubbornly refusing to become friends).
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 16, 2017, 07:21:10 am
My wordings might not have been clear. I've also heard cousins can marry. What I meant is that them being related cause them to fail MY criterion of recognition on the relations screen (and if only siblings are off limits due to being related, aunts/uncles probably behave as cousins: given how long dorfs (and humans) are fertile, it's not uncommon for dorfs to be the same age as some of their parents' siblings).
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: steel jackal on August 16, 2017, 09:58:26 am
you can change the orientation tag to make everyone straight and want to get married (if you just want lots of babies for an army or something)

this is for females
[ORIENTATION:MALE:0:50:100]
[ORIENTATION:FEMALE:100:0:0]


this is for males
[ORIENTATION:MALE:100:0:0]
[ORIENTATION:FEMALE:0:50:100]


you can change the 50 into a 100 to guarantee that everyone will want to get married, i have it set to 50 because i find that it gives me enough babies. (maybe 1/3rd the population is children)
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: Alpha Loves You on August 18, 2017, 04:09:13 pm
you can change the orientation tag to make everyone straight and want to get married (if you just want lots of babies for an army or something)

this is for females
[ORIENTATION:MALE:0:50:100]
[ORIENTATION:FEMALE:100:0:0]


this is for males
[ORIENTATION:MALE:100:0:0]
[ORIENTATION:FEMALE:0:50:100]


you can change the 50 into a 100 to guarantee that everyone will want to get married, i have it set to 50 because i find that it gives me enough babies. (maybe 1/3rd the population is children)
How do you change the orientation for dwarves?
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 18, 2017, 05:48:40 pm
The question is unclear.
If you're talking about everyone you'd modify entity_defaults.txt in line with steel jackal's description (into the female/male sub sections). If you want to modify individual dorfs in fortress mode gaydar or gui/gm-editor can be used.
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: Pumble on August 20, 2017, 12:50:51 am
They don't re-marry if widowed? That's unfortunate. It would be nice if they did.
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 20, 2017, 02:58:58 am
Yes, it would be nice. It would also lead to an even higher rate of "unfortunate accidents" in player fortresses...

I suspect the reason they don't remarry is that it requires extra work to allow them to. It's simple to just wipe the previous marriage off their record and replace it with the new one, but that would lead to inconsistencies in the history data. The appropriate thing would be to replace the spouse element with a list (and that would probably open up for polygamy as well).
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: Fleeting Frames on August 20, 2017, 04:57:22 am
It's already open, sort of. You can get dwarves with both spouse and lover with retirement screwiness.
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: Alpha Loves You on August 20, 2017, 08:20:15 am
The question is unclear.
If you're talking about everyone you'd modify entity_defaults.txt in line with steel jackal's description (into the female/male sub sections). If you want to modify individual dorfs in fortress mode gaydar or gui/gm-editor can be used.

Where in Entity_default is the Orientation tag? Because I can't find it and neither can the "View" tool
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: KittyTac on August 20, 2017, 08:33:36 am
The question is unclear.
If you're talking about everyone you'd modify entity_defaults.txt in line with steel jackal's description (into the female/male sub sections). If you want to modify individual dorfs in fortress mode gaydar or gui/gm-editor can be used.

Where in Entity_default is the Orientation tag? Because I can't find it and neither can the "View" tool

Orientation is defined in creatures, not entity_default.txt.
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: Quarque on August 21, 2017, 03:52:05 pm
Alright, the first date has been set up. The dating room is a small room with two beds and plenty of golden furniture, designated as two overlapping bedrooms.

The miner Sarvesh can be barely contain his nerves, as he will be dating for the first time in his life. He's seen little of the dwarven ladies so far, always working in remote places.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Ominously "He tends to avoid any physical confrontations, though he is conflicted by this for more than one reason." He will definitely have to overcome his anxiety if he is to get anywhere with Id, a shy girl who spent most of her life engraving and planting pigtails:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

They have already been spotted dancing in the tavern together. Will love blossom between them? Bets can still be placed, minimum deposit five kitten bones.
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: Fleeting Frames on August 21, 2017, 11:57:41 pm
Well, I think it will blossom, though I wouldn't pick Id as scholar. No inclination towards abstract thinking? Oh my.

Unless your goal is to have scholars who don't want to think abstractly and hate knowledge, in a kind of reverse from the usual.
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 22, 2017, 02:06:53 am
Physical confrontation is about making war, not love... Being conflicted about avoiding it typically happens when martial prowess is an inspiring ideal. It's probably a good thing not to let the fists do the talking when disagreeing with a would be spouse (although there are dorfs who actually like quarreling and talking with their fists, so those could possibly marry each other).
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: Quarque on August 25, 2017, 01:53:29 pm
Well, I think it will blossom, though I wouldn't pick Id as scholar. No inclination towards abstract thinking? Oh my.
You´re a winner: they fell in love! I overheard them arguing: "why do I always have to do the abstract thinking?"
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: Toxicshadow on August 25, 2017, 05:53:58 pm
The appropriate thing would be to replace the spouse element with a list (and that would probably open up for polygamy as well).
Sorry if this is too off topic but please use the term "polyamory" instead of "polygamy" as the first refers to a group of people all, entirely consenting to a relationship together. The latter is something else.
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: mikekchar on August 25, 2017, 09:33:42 pm
I know virtually nothing about the topic, but the dictionaries I consulted and Wikipedia all seem to disagree with your statement.  In fact Wikipedia is careful to point out: "Confusion arises when polyamory is misapplied in a broader sense, as an umbrella term for various forms of consensual non-monogamous, multi-partner relationships (including polyamory), or consensual non-exclusive sexual or romantic relationships."

My casual reading of the 2 Wikipedia articles on the subject seem to indicate that

  - Polyamory is a term that was defined in the 1990s.  Before that, there was no term for it in English (which is probably why I have never heard the term before).

  - Polygamy is a cultural/religious custom of having more than one spouse.  The key point for it to be polygamous is that the marriages must be recognised (even if banned) by the culture.  Consent is not part of the definition, one way or the other (just like there are both consensual and non-consensual monogamous marriages).

  - Polyamorous relationships do not necessarily have to involve marriages that are recognised by the culture (whether banned or not).

So in the context in which we are speaking, it seems that Polygamy is the correct term, AFAICT.  We are literally talking about dwarfs with multiple concurrent spouses -- not about dwarfs with multiple concurrent consensual relationships.

I may be wrong, but it's possible that I detect that you prefer Polyamory as being something that is more moral than Polygamy -- and hence the desire to use that term instead.  I don't have a horse in the race, as they say (non-monogamous relationships are definitely not my thing, but I don't want to judge what others think is good for them).  My intent is not to step on your toes but I'm rather OCD about precise language so I'm curious about the distinction.
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: Toxicshadow on August 25, 2017, 10:23:26 pm
Thank you for taking the time to actually fact check.

Your definitions align with mine, my usage was off.

As a person who has been in non-monogamous relationships before, I simply get tired of polygamy being the most used umbrella term, as it has some bad implications, and I try to spread awareness of the term polyamory instead. Unlike this case, most of the time when people use polygamy, they're actually referring to polyamory. In polyamorous communities its one of those 'meta discourse' things that gets discussed quite a lot.
Apologies if my previous post came off as rude, you are correct.
More unrelated to the topic at hand discussion:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 26, 2017, 03:10:40 am
Given the DF does have a "lover" relation, making that a list as well as the spouse one would allow for polyamorous relations of both the official and unofficial kind, but it would be a bit of a hassle as every list of every party involved would have to be updated when the group changes (although it would allow for group members to have "private" relations to individuals outside of the group).

However, given that the list idea was tossed in to deal with monogamous remarriage, it's a bit of an extension (although not beyond the realm of what Toady might want to implement).

I disagree with Toxicshadow's statement that most usages of the word polygamy are misused references to polyamory (like mikekchar, I wasn't aware of that term itself before), as most of the society doesn't deal much with polyamory at all, so most references to polygamy are to the legal (or not) formal kind practiced in various cultures. If I've been discussing the various group relations in the past (which I don't know if I have), I certainly wouldn't have used the term polygamy.
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: Quarque on August 26, 2017, 11:44:16 am
Follow-up question.

Now my fortress has one married couple and one couple of lovers. However, years have gone by, and still no babies. What could be the cause?

My settings are:
Population cap 7 (and 7 dwarves in the fort)
Strict population cap 34
Child cap 1000/1000
I have about 70 pets running around and 3 guests.

Could the game be counting pets toward the strict population cap?
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: Fleeting Frames on August 26, 2017, 12:00:31 pm
Are your dwarves of opposite sex and able to meet in adjacent tiles?
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: Quarque on August 26, 2017, 12:03:13 pm
Yes and yes.. the married couple also has a shared bedroom now. Although the problem might be that they do not actually "meet in adjacent tiles" enough, cause my layout is inefficient and they spend a lot of time travelling to and fro.. maybe that's it, then?
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 26, 2017, 12:20:31 pm
Yes, I tend to have to "encourage" couples to procreate by burrowing them in their room as I did when getting them to marry, but without making it a tavern zone. Once you get them both in there (which is fiddly because they frequently violate burrowing orders by drinking/eating/sleeping in the burrow, run away and THEN figure out what to do, and since they've now left the burrow they go to the tavern...), they have the same things to do as real world couples when the light goes out. They only have to be in adjacent (or the same) tile for a few ticks to get the process going (can be checked with DFHack). Once the female is pregnant I deactivate the burrow.
Without encouragement their reproduction rate is rather low, as they spend their off time in the tavern/temple/library, not cuddling their spouses.
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: Quarque on August 26, 2017, 02:02:02 pm
Assigning them to a small burrow was not enough. They were constantly praying, even inside of the burrow. They were praying so much that they didn't have any time left to have sex!  ::) Even married couples, locked up in their rooms with nothing else to do, are spending years praying without getting intimate for a moment.

The only thing that helped was to break down all the churces (removing the areas).

Honestly I think this is a bug, isn't it? I'm playing version 0.43.05-r2

edit: yep, it is a known bug: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9147 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9147)
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: PatrikLundell on August 26, 2017, 03:27:23 pm
It's probably a version of the same bug that causes dorfs to desert their burrows. I've seen them "pray" in the non temple burrows as well, although they tend to stop eventually: I've seen them socializing for a while as well. I might have a little less problem because I don't have dedicated temples, just a general one (dedicated temples screwed up visitors for me).
Title: Re: How can I get my dwarves to make out?
Post by: Fleeting Frames on August 26, 2017, 04:29:32 pm
Yeah, got to force them to meet for babies. Being even just half-hearted about it can still halve your babies easily.

I've had two dwarves marry in 3x3 tavern/burrow and have the female get pregnant by the time I zoom in, but I've also seen suggestions of requiring No Job for pregnancy.